Comments on: Rumor: Info on Low-End Sony and Palm Devices

There is obviously a market for low-cost devices; the best way to service that market is often with proven, low-risk technology. It's been repeatedly stated, here & in many other places, that the initial PalmOS5 devices will be high-end/high-cost bits of kit. It is unlikely that we will see low-end/low-cost PalmOS5 devices until well into 2003. Lets be honest people, PalmOS4 is more than able to support what *most* 'low-cost' users want from their devices; there are still new devices coming out with PalmOS3 for crying out loud ! (see Treo300 article from yesterday)!

The *point* is that, as far as they are concerned, Palm, Sony, etal, have good reasons to carry on bringing out dragonball/OS4 -based devices for some time to come; those consumers that feel they *need* OS5 will be able to buy them soon enough, but they've got to realise that, like any early adopter, they are going to have to pay a premium to get them. Sorry folks ...

I couldn't wait to see the new PalmOS 5 low-end model that is supposedly 33MHz with 16MBs of RAM! So that I can play MOVIE and listen to lots and lots of MP3 into the built-in RAM on the road! Yeah Baby!

Handspring has only come out with 4 designs in 3-4 years. The Visor (and counterparts), the Visor Edge, the Visor Prism, and the Treo. The Visor Solo, Deluxe, Platinum, Neo, and Pro all used the same casing, however each was unique and offered something brand new - whether it was a faster processor or first to have 16mb's, etc...

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The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
-Hubert Humphrey

I think it's good that they're continuing to address the low end of the market. With OS5 there might be a danger of people perceiving Palms becoming more expensive and shying away altogether. The newer model will demonstrate that Palm are still committed in this sector of the market.

And why do we expect "innovation" in a low-end model anyway? The innovation we see here is usually the incorporation of features already in more expensive models. People buying the low end models want something to do the standard PIM stuff, and that's what they get.

That is your opinion. I have an m100 and love it. I paid $100 for it and I can carry around everything I need. I have games, avantgo, docs to go, and ebooks. The memory is a bit low, but I knew that going in, and didn't want to spend more for an m105, because then I would be reluctant to get a better OS5 model. Now having spent only $100 dollars, I have no problem buying a new OS5 palm when it comes out. In addition, I think the form is quite good because I don't want to have to treat my PDA like gold. I treat it like a TV remote. Just throw it anywhere and change the batteries every once and a while.

I've stated my opinion before but I'll state it again. IMO, Palm should drop the m100 (which I think they already did) and m105. The new sub-$100 model should be an m125 with *less* built-in memory (say 2MB - heck, why not 512K?). Like the m125 (and all other active products once killing the m105) it would have the universal connector. It would have a memory card slot.

The combination of memory card slot and limited memory would spur purchases of Palm-branded SD cards and other SD cards with preinstalled apps. Remember, MS, Sony, and Nintendo can afford to sell their game systems at a loss because they make up for it in profits on the game cartridges. Obviously, the analogy isn't perfect, but there's still some profit to be gained there even in the handheld world.

Scott

Maybe Palm should forget about making hardware and concentrate on the OS. Both Sony and Handspring have released several new units since the last one Palm made. Just me using my 615c has been influence enough to convert several Palm V and Wince users to get a Sony hi-res unit.

I don't understand why Sony has been the only player to have hi-res units. (Having never seen a Handera device I don't consider it successful. I was even considering it before buying my 615 but could never find one to test drive.)

However I also don't understand why Sony or Palm haven't released a 'cell-phone' model. Well maybe just Sony. They've proven to be bolder than Palm at releasing new units.

> Maybe Palm should forget about making hardware and concentrate on the OS.

This would be great but 90%+ of Palm revenue comes from the Hardware side. Do you know what that would do to Earnings??????? There is a little group called SHAREHOLDERS that want some value.

My M125 is a very capable little device, literally the "poor mans" M500.

strider_mt2k@yahoo.com

>throw them away once the battery dies

Sony should do the same thing. Oh wait, that means you'd have to buy several to make it through the week.

While your conclusion may or may not be correct (it probably isn't), the logic behind it is fatally flawed. Palm sells 6 M100s, or for the sake of the actual product line-up, M105s, in the time that Sony sells one NR70V. You think Palm makes the most on this deal? Very unlikely. Think about it this way. AMD (which I own stock in) sells 3 Athlon XP 2100+s, while Intel sells 1 Pentium 4 2.53GHz chips. The price of the Athlons combined compared to the Pentium 4 are probably about equal. Who probably makes a higher profit? Intel. Why? PROFIT MARGINS. For the sake of argument lets say AMD makes 30% off of every chip produced (which it doesn't) and Intel makes 40% (which may be incorrect, but in reality Intel's profit margin is higher than AMDs). Who makes more money? Intel. Even though AMD sold more of unit X, Intel made more on unit Y, due to the fact that it is both MORE EXPENSIVE and has HIGHER PROFIT MARGINS. In the same vein, it is very probable that Palm makes much more money off of an M515 than a M105, for the simple fact that the razor-thin margins on its products are quite a bit thinner on the M105 (to keep its price low) than the M515. People will pay a premium for quality, whether real or percieved. They will not for budget products, which also serve the purpose of creating brand loyalty for that company's brand in the hope that in the future they will upgrade to higher end products. In effect (and in theory), the high-end models that the user purchases later (hopefully) helps to subsidize the minimal profit made on current budget products retroactively.

In some limited cases, this might be true, but I don't think it applies here, particularly not in the current economic climate.
If this IS true as a general axiom, please explain why Wal*Mart is making so much money? They sure don't seem to be doing it on markup.
Profit on markup may be higher, but profit on volume grows quicker.See 'Dollar General' or any discount chain.

That having been said, I bought a m105 as a present for my girlfriend a while back (after she'd dropped the PPPro that I'd lent her, and wiped it out for the sixth or eighth time.) She's tickled - Mainly because she dosen't worry so much about breaking it now.

No, what is ridiculous is that they are selling the T615C for only $300. Sony can't possibly be making any money off them at this price. Expect the T615C to go away a few weeks before the SJ30 is out.

The 2nd message is correct. At least in spirit.

The guy who started this thread is missing the point.

The SJ30 is, for all intents & purposes, the same as the 615c. Sony isn't making money on the 615c at a price point of $300, because it costs too much to make.

That is why they are switching to the SJ30. It will cost less to make, and they will eventually be able to offer it at prices around $200....maybe even less....in the not-to-distant future.

It's the same reasoning that went behind the demise of the superior Palm IIIxe.

I'll make up these numbers so that it makes sense:

If it costs $90 to make a IIIxe, and you're selling it at $200, you're making an alright profit.

When the market changes & you're forced to sell it for $100, the profit margin is no longer acceptable.

The m100 and m105 have equal (as perceived by the average consumer...not us..of course!) value, yet the m105 may only cost $45 dollars to produce.

Thus, when the market dictates that a unit of that power be sold as low as $100, or even $75, you're still turning out a nice profit.

Those are bogus numbers, for sure, but you get the point.

I hope.

Models like this are OUTSTANDING for the PDA market. When the SJ30 comes down in price, everybody and their mom will have one of these, which pushes everything in the technology curve upward.

New & better software, more peripherals....more EVERYTHING that will make the Palm marketplace a better environment.

First of all, McD's sell A HELL OF A LOT more $$$ of product VOLUME in aggregate daily than Palm could ever dream of. Do you know how much Profit Margin McD's makes on a SODA? And order of FRIES? A Burger??? A Soda probably costs McD's about 1 cent and they charge $1 for it. That's a 99.99% profit margin. UNDERSTAND? If an m100 costs Palm $50 to make and they sell it to retail for $55 that's no good.

The SJ30 is, for all intents & purposes, the same as the 615c. Sony isn't making money on the 615c at a price point of $300, because it costs too much to make.

That is why they are switching to the SJ30. It will cost less to make, and they will eventually be able to offer it at prices around $200....maybe even less....in the not-to-distant future.

It's the same reasoning that went behind the demise of the superior Palm IIIxe.

I'll make up these numbers so that it makes sense:

If it costs $90 to make a IIIxe, and you're selling it at $200, you're making an alright profit.

When the market changes & you're forced to sell it for $100, the profit margin is no longer acceptable.

The m100 and m105 have equal (as perceived by the average consumer...not us..of course!) value, yet the m105 may only cost $45 dollars to produce.

Thus, when the market dictates that a unit of that power be sold as low as $100, or even $75, you're still turning out a nice profit.

Those are bogus numbers, for sure, but you get the point.

I hope.

Models like this are OUTSTANDING for the PDA market. When the SJ30 comes down in price, everybody and their mom will have one of these, which pushes everything in the technology curve upward.

New & better software, more peripherals....more EVERYTHING that will make the Palm marketplace a better environment.

That's what they said about the PC - "who wants/needs one - only nerds/techs/geeks".

Bottom line is that PDA's will become more complex BUT more elegant and much easier to use (ie perfect voice recognition/audio/video, etc.). They will become so easy to use that in the future that 3 year olds and 98 year olds will use them en masse.

"That's what they said about the PC - "who wants/needs one - only nerds/techs/geeks".

Bottom line is that PDA's will become more complex BUT more elegant and much easier to use (ie perfect voice recognition/audio/video, etc.). They will become so easy to use that in the future that 3 year olds and 98 year olds will use them en masse.
"

Oh, i agree. I was just pointing out that while people complain about the m100, it is these devices which will really bring PDAs into the
mainstream. Ultimately, most people don't want/need:
Hi Res
Camera
MP3
etc. etc.
It just annoys me when people snub these devices. Not everyone can afford $1000 (AUSD) on a device, where all they want is an organizer...
I got a bit worked up tho' :)

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Odds of ever affording a palm without resorting to crime: 1765:1

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