Comments on: Sony SJ20 and SJ30 Announced in Australia and Hong Kong

I think that's the question that you should be asking Palm.

Will you compare the PDA's that Sony has developed and release vs. the PDA's the Palm has developed and release you can clearly see your innovation.

Yes. Well. Since you say so, I believe you. (irony)

Still it would be nice to see some evidence of what Sony has produced in the way of innovation, putting aside of course what it has copied from Palm.

Let's see. There is an MP3 player on some units. Nice but not a Sony innovation - Springboard modules allowed this for Visors long before the first CLIE model was released.

There is also the famous hi-res screen. Not a Sony innovation either - just copied from TRG/Handera. Anyway, Sony are so committed to hi-res that their current range includes 3 DIFFERENT screen resolutions - not exactly a vote of confidence if you ask me.

That aside, what has Sony done which is so different from Palm? Only the "twisting screen" comes to mind, and this of itself is not exactly a world beater.

So, I ask again: where is the innovation?

You know, being the narrowest and shortest Palm OS PDA EVER!!!

The thickness just TOTALLY overshadows that this thing is the SHORTEST and NARROWEST unit ever produced.

Sony should be embarrassed at how freakin' huge this gigantic brick is!

When are the Japanese gonna learn that the market only cares about THICKNESS!!!

Wow, this thing is gigantic. I can hardly stand to look at how huge it is. What a disgrace.

This thing is WAAAAAY too big to appeal to most people.

Heck, it's almost as huge as the gigantic Treo 90 (currently the smallest PDA on the market). Doesn't Sony realize they can't DO THAT???

My lord, this thing is a friggin' MAMMOTH!

Down with Sony. Down with Japan. Down with Godzilla. Down with things that are HUGE!

You know, being the narrowest and shortest Palm OS PDA EVER!!!

The thickness just TOTALLY overshadows that this thing is the SHORTEST and NARROWEST unit ever produced.

Sony should be embarrassed at how freakin' huge this gigantic brick is!

When are the Japanese gonna learn that the market only cares about THICKNESS!!!

Wow, this thing is gigantic. I can hardly stand to look at how huge it is. What a disgrace.

This thing is WAAAAAY too big to appeal to most people.

Heck, it's almost as huge as the gigantic Treo 90 (currently the smallest PDA on the market). Doesn't Sony realize they can't DO THAT???

My lord, this thing is a friggin' MAMMOTH!

Down with Sony. Down with Japan. Down with Godzilla. Down with things that are HUGE!

Thickness isn't the ONLY thing that matters when u buy a PDA...

The market doesn't CARE JUST ABOUT thickness....
DAMN IT... will u buy a device thats 10 inches long and 10 inches wide, just cos its 0.1 inch thick?

MAMMOTH?? look at the m130.... longer, wider, thicker... WHAT THE HELL R U CALLING A MAMMOTH?

DOWN WITH JAPAN?? STOP being a friggin racist(and just if ur wondering... i'm not japanese)

I pity the IQs of some folk posting here.

Why does one person jump to a conclusion, and everybody else believe it is a bandwagon?

I am still waiting for a Palm OS device which runs on Palm OS 5.0.

This marketing only adds to the perception that Sony introduce new models at a blinding rate.

As for pricing -
From every salesperson's handbook
Chapter 1
Closing the Deal
When dealing with a customer -
"if they don't complain about the price you haven't charged enough"

mrscarey

palmist and visionary

(Note that the T615 isn't offered in Australia and is noted as "sold out" in Hong King

AFAIK, the T and NR-series have the regular Ir-transciever for beaming etc. PLUS a second Ir-transmitter that is specifically for the consumer electronics remote control function.

Apparently, the SL and SJ-series don't have the second Ir transmitter (or the real speaker, but that's a different issue)

I doubt such numbers are available. You example numbers are way high though. Assuming Palm had around 50% of the market and Sony 10% your numbers don't fit. Just a guess, but over the past year the m505 was probably around 5%-8% and the NR70 less than 1%. Like I said though, just a guess. The vast majority of Palm sales are m1xx devices, and Sony sales were S-series.

_______________________________________
I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

Then I'm in good company.

Everybody on here over-rates thickness.

Go get an envelope. Put it in your pocket.

Now go to your local bar and get 2 cardboard coasters, press them together, and put them in your pocket.

Now which of these 2 scenarios feels more comfortable?

Your message was based on science, and frankly, I wish everybody on here put as much thought into their messages as you did.

However, sometimes the "perception" of size is more important than actual volume or mass.

The Treo 90, for instance, is absolutely, POSITIVELY the smallest "feeling" PDA I've EVER HELD, even though it's considerably thicket than my m505.

END OF STORY.

This unit, and the upcoming "Oslo", are both shorter and narrower than the Treo 90.

Enough said.

That's exactly what SHE said!!!

Well Palm has been on the market way longer, and more time on the market means more products.

"Lets see, sony has the n710, n610, n760, weren't they all the same body casing, just the 700 series had mp3 playback capability?

Palm has had the m505, m515, m500 (same thing, how come no one yells about palm coming out with new models? - wasn't the m505 discontinued pretty quick?)"

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO clear?

This is not a comparison AT ALL. Sony averages a new Palm release once every month and a half and Palm averages one every 3 months if you factor in all models and THE TIME EACH COMPANY HAS BEEN ON THE MARKET. Palm started at 1996 and Sony started in late 2000 so Palm has the right to have more models. Palm has 19, and Sony has 13 (not including SJ series). That difference should be a lot larger, considering Palm had 4 years before Sony. And look at the m500, m505, and the m515 compared to the N610c, N710c, and the N760c. First, the m500 came out then a few weeks later came the m505. The m505 was discontinued after about 10 months on the market and it was replaced with the m515. But with Sony, the N610c and N710c were released together and then the N760c came out about a month later because of the updated OS. It's a time frame of one month compared to 10 months, so you are wrong there.

"Sony has had the t415, t615, now t655 but hasn't palm come out with a V, a Vx
sony has had the s500, s300, s360 but hasn't palm come out with the m100, m105, m125, m130 (jeez, palm, stop coming out with more m-series models!)"

Wrong again. The V was replaced by the Vx almost a year later. But rather, with Sony the T415 was discontinued, yet the T615c and the T665c are still both on the market. And in that list, you missed the S320, so its 4 compared to 4. Why would Palm want to release less m series models??? They are the most successful pdas EVER. Oh yes, sure, get rid of them because those models are only aimed at 75% of the entire pda market, yes, you're right. Jeez, get a grip!

"Okay, so sony now has three new sj models, don't even get me started on how many Palm III versions Palm came out with (palm III, Palm IIIx, Palm IIIxe, Palm IIIc)"

Completely apples to oranges. The III series isn't even in production anymore, and they haven't been for a long time. And if I recall correctly, those models each offered something newer and different with each release. The SJs haven't even been announced by Sony in the US, yet. And the III series sold VERY well. That was at a time that Sony wasn't even making pdas yet.

"So why is everyone complaining when sony comes out with a new model? Essentially, don't they just have 5 "series" of palms? The S, N, T, NR, and now SJ. Correct me if i'm wrong here, but how many "series" of palm has palm come out with? 5 also? III, V, VII, m100s, m500s. So why don't we all jump on palm whenever a new model comes out?"

BECAUSE PALM HAS BEEN IN THE MARKET WAY LONGER AND HAS A GRIP ON THE MARKET AND TIME THEIR RELEASES, but with Sony and their deep pockets, their release dates are out of control. They don't even give their models enough time to sell, they look like they are just trying to kill Palm by throwing anything out on the market that they can. So why do you think Palm has so much more marketshare?

"I'm just confused as to why everyone jumps on sony? It's not like they're completely redesigning their palm line, they just have different "series" of palms with different modifications on each one. They only have two different connectors, the S/N type and now the new NR/T/SJ. How many connectors has palm had in the past? III, V, m100, m500,VII, jeez someone should yell at the guys over there, at least sony is trying to standardize the connectors."

The models by Sony come out fast enough that it would be VERY dumb to have connectors differentiate. But rather with Palm, their releases are spaced far enough where they have the time to make better connectors that are faster and smaller. Would you prefer an m515 with the Pilot 1000 connector? Of course not.

"I'm not trying to start a flame war, i'm just making a comparison on how sony hasn't really come up with TOO many new models TOO fast. sorry if I've made a few errors in this post."

You aren't trying to start a flame war? Huh, could've fooled me. And your comparison has no backing. I would be on your side if Sony had started making pdas back in 1996, but they didn't.

Sorry for completely reposting his post in quotes, but I couldn't let such an opinion go on without more information on the subject. Sorry if it went on a little TOO long.

-Bosco

________________________________________
Make it idiot proof, and somebody will make a better idiot.

Seek help. Please.

It's called Valium.

You need some.

Quick!

Sony produced the Magic Link PDA from 1995 to 1998 (-ish). They developed two models (the PIC-1000 and PIC-2000) which ran the quirky MagicCap OS. The Magic Links competed with the Newton and Zoomer; and before too long, the pilot and PalmPilots. The Magic Links were big, heavy, expensive, and ultimately, not a success in the marketplace.

And another thing... what's the problem with just throwing things out on the market? Well for one, it's that some devices can become half baked if a company rushes too much. Sure, this isn't the case for Sony but for Palm it is (think m505 and i705 which didn't live up to the anticipation) and I don't want to see that happen for Sony products. And it's not just that, it is also that it must be horrible that you see your brand new Clie become out of date and discontinued in less than 3 months.

And Palm Otaku, are you the webmaster of PalmEvolution??? Yes, I love that site and I have already learned a lot from it from the timeline and the "family" tree. I remember flipping through it the first day it went up... ahh memories.

And about the valium guy... huh? Yeah your post contributed a lot to the discussion. Please refrain from speaking ever again, thanks! :-D

One more thing I would like to add to my comments in the previous post I made: Do ANY of you think Sony is making any money off the Clie line of handhelds?

Anyway, I have yet to see somebody prove my position as being wrong. Anybody else care to comment? I would be more than happy to defend my umm... essay/editorial.

-Bosco

________________________________________
Make it idiot proof, and somebody will make a better idiot.

From you I quote: "Until they got in the game, we had horrible monochrome devices with no sound, no NOTHING! Just pure 160 x 160 mono phonebooks and calendars."

That is not true. Palm released the first color Palm OS device ever, the IIIc, in the beginning of 2000 and Sony released their first Clies in mid 2000. They were the S300 and S500, both 160x160 but the 300 was monochrome and the 500 had 8 bit color. And then the Prism from Handspring was the first device to include 16 bit color. You will find out if you study the entire life span of these Palm OS companies that Handspring is THE most innovative company. First with 16 bit color, first with 16 mb and they only release products when there is a need for one (quoted from Terry Salmi). Sony came up with the idea of 320x320, speakers, and an mp3 player, and all of these things are purely for multimedia purposes. Sony intended their products to be multimedia oriented because they feel that that is what people want out of an organizer/ But do those products sell as well as the other Palms and Handsprings??? No, they do not.

And yes, Sony does have a problem with throwing out half baked devices. Think of the S500 if you've ever seen it (near impossible) or heard about it from somebody. You would've heard that the screen quality is not comparable to the IIIc. Think of the T415. Now with your umm, "expertise" you should have already seen the T415, right? Well if you have then you would understand that the screen is far inferior to any 160x160 monochrome device. But when Palm puts out some devices that seemed rushed to market such as the m505 and the i705, they still sell incredibly well.

And how doesn't Sony have a grip on their release dates??? The greatest example that I can think of Sony going out of control with release dates are the N610c, N710c, and N760c. These are good products, however Sony rushed them out to market. They could have simply waited a little while longer for the release of OS 4.1, but their plan was to market the first two, but then when OS 4.1 came out they jumped on it by releasing another one, making the grand total... THREE PRODUCTS. Notice the caps are for emphasis, not to yell at you.

And it doesn't matter is Sony is the top manufacturer of electronics worldwide, the only thing that matters here is the Palm is the top manufacturer of pdas worldwide by a large margin.

Now count the amount of PALM OS devices there are between Sony and Palm. In the amount of time each have been releasing PALM OS, Sony is a lot more saturated with their release dates.

Now don't get me wrong, I like Sony and I always tend to have Clie envy, but when these products get produced and replaced withing a few short months and I paid top dollar for my Clie, I would be kinda upset. And again, I must say... why do you think Palm has more marketshare?

And there is nothing wrong with my "philosophy". If you want to look at my philosophy directly, you would understand that instead of releasing the N610c, N710c, and N760c, I would just release the N610c and N760c, making people wait with anticipation and spacing out release dates accordingly in order to make a big stir in the market. Now, whenever Sony comes out with a new product I say "eh". But when a new Palm comes out I say "whoa".

-Bosco

________________________________________
Make it idiot proof, and somebody will make a better idiot.

One question: SO WHAT?!?! (and yes I used caps NOT for emphasis.)

SO WHAT?!? What does it matter to YOU if Sony release 2 or 20 Clie's within a single year. SO WHAT?

From your post it's obvious that Sony had ran over your puppy or something, if you don't like Sony then don't buy a Sony, don't look at a Sony, don't read about Sony...

No one is forcing you to buy a Clie.

Obviously yuo are a blind loyal Palm supporter, seeing Palm upstaged is very upsetting to you. Just forget that you ever saw or heard about the Sony Clie.

Chill

Let's have a little break here to get some perspective.

Palm created a form factor which is so successful that all others have tried to emulate it. Palm created an OS which is the envy of its competitors.

Versus:

Sony has produced copies and added some gee-whiz features to SOME of their models.

For this, you say that Clies are rated above Palms for innovation?

First of all, the current OS is 5.0 but it has yet to be released in a device yet. It has been the current since June. Second, Palm DOES sell better than Handspring, Sony, and HandEra. Why? Because they don't feel the need JUST YET to include high resolution and virtual graffiti into their devices like the Sonys and they don't want to go headlong into the communicator business like Handspring. So what's the result of Palm's decision? Well if you look at how successful the m515 is, you can draw a very good picture of what Palm's entire focus is. Palm is oriented more toward the "working" aspect, while the Clies are oriented more towards the "entertainment" aspect. It even says it in their name, Communications Link Information ENTERTAINMENT. Another example is the internet access. Palm has a great system for wireless devices and modems, which greatly surpass Sony's. Most people that are in the market for a new Palm OS pda usually need it to store vital information and do work on it, etc, etc. But there are only some people that are willing to shell out the extra cash for a Clie (granted, the m515 and T665c are the same price, but the entire Clie line in general is more expensive than the Palm line). Lastly, remove HandEra from that list. The last OS they used in a device was OS 3.5 in the Handera 330.

"2. Now how about innovation: Palm still market their organizer with 160x160 display, no jog-dial, no multi-media MP3 playback, still with a 33mhz processor. They just re-introduce the same models with a different name. Yeah, that's real innovation."

Those reintroductions of the same models were incredibly successful, like when the m500 and m505 replaced the Vx, and when the m515 replaced the m505. Yet, Sony also reintroduced the same models under different names. I must bring up again the whole N610c, N710c, and N760c thing. I really see no difference between the m515 replacing the m505 than the N760c replacing the N710c. The only difference is that Palm added more stuff than what Sony added, like the only real adjustment between the 710 and 760 was the OS, yet the adjustment between the 505 and 515 was a newer OS, twice the memory, better and brighter screen, and better battery life (which is a whole new issue that concerns the Clie's battery life compared to the Palm's battery life, but I'm not about to get into that now).

Huh, and Palm still sells more pdas than Sony... funny how that works.

________________________________________
Make it idiot proof, and somebody will make a better idiot.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Including the marketing and sales branches of mega-money corporations like Sony. I assure you that Sony did not reach their current status by putting out products that aren't making them money. That's pretty standard, or else they would be out of business. So it's a moot point. Sony makes and sells products that make them money. Period. If they don't make money, they are either not released or pulled quickly. Econ 101.

As for your own statements, you are contradicting yourself with your original statement that - "some devices can become half baked if a company rushes too much. Sure, this isn't the case for Sony" - and then turn around with - "yes, Sony does have a problem with throwing out half baked devices. Think of the S500 if you've ever seen it (near impossible) or heard about it from somebody. You would've heard that the screen quality is not comparable to the IIIc. Think of the T415."

Ok, so which is it? Make up your mind man! First you say they DON'T have a problem, then you turn right around and say they do! THIS is the type of reasoning I keep seeing out of your posts. Take a position, and stick to it. You keep insisting that nobody has proved you wrong. Well, that's not possible when you keep flipping sides like a pancake on a hot griddle!

As for some specifics - the S500 was never released in the US (the reason they are so hard to find). Probably because they didn't think it could compete (see my first statement). Sony has a tendency to try out new products on European and Asian markets before they bring it to the States. Make sense to me. They woodshedded, and got it right with the N series, and released that instead - because they needed to get a color device on the market, regardless of which OS it wsa running or what was right around the corner.

Yes, I saw the Palm IIIc. It looked like crap. That's one of the reasons I bought the S300 when I was holding both of them in my hand deciding which one to buy. I decided that I would rather have a top notch monochrome device with a real backlight (not that hideous reverse contrast that Palm used for years) than a half-assed color device without any expanability. That was my choice. One I would not have had a chance to make if you ran the marketing and sales division at Sony, apparently... ;)

And you state "Sony came up with the idea of 320x320, speakers, and an mp3 player, and all of these things are purely for multimedia purposes" - Ever try to spend a few hours reading eBooks or spreadsheets on 180x180 screens? How is having 4 TIMES the resolution something that exists only for entertainment purposes? Yes, MP3 playing is for entertainment. I like it. But it wasn't even an option (originally) on the S300 I bought. It was only about 6 months later they released the audio adapter for it.

You can go on and on and on about the N610, 710 and 760 models. Fact is - they were out, and Sony even offered a very reasonably priced upgrade to turn your 710 into a 760. When has Palm EVER done anything like that? Yeah, there are some aftermarket guys that will upgrade a III to a IIIx or IIIxe, but not Palm. So, even when Sony does release a product that becomes *out of date* quickly, they stand behind it and offer the chance to "get it right". And it was more than just OS4.1 that was offered, it also turned the device into a HiRes capable 65k color screen in the process. Just because a newer device has been released, does not mean my current one is any LESS capable than it was the day I bought it. I don't buy into that "obsolete" garbage, because as long as what I bought still does what I bought it for, then how is it obsolete??

Basically, what I find is the funniest part - OS5 is what Sony has already been doing for the last year and a half on existing systems. So what is OS5? It's Palm trying to catch up to what the aftermarket guys have already done. Basically OS5 is a Clie. I guess it's true - imitation truly is the most sincere form of flattery! What also amusing to me is that the same argument you use for the *fluff* added to Sony's devices are the SAME things that are added to OS5. So, Sony must be on to something if Palm feels the need NOW to add those features. Or maybe, just MAYBE - Sony was ahead of everyone else and helped create a market that Palm is now trying to capitalize on. You can go on and on about Palm having marketshare - I would expect nothing less. But the demographics of that market are almost 100% business types, and Sony has expanded the market to people who would have never even thought about owning a PDA before. And for that, they deserve credit.

You know that we arent going to have those options for PalmOS for a while yet you constantly keep dreaming.
not that dreaming is a bad thing, but dreaming for something that wont happen and something you cant have is what i call "useless".
Stop wanting bluetooth and Xscale processors in PalmOS Palm pilots... they are PALM PILOTS, not freaking desktop computers. why i am curious do you need such speed with a palm pilot? i know my NR70 is very fast in doing what i need it to do, so im not sure what your complaning about.

____________________
Ever notice how fast Windows runs?

Neither did I.

Bottom line, the OS 5 Palm WILL have an ARM based processor and have bluetooth support built in. Might as well take advantage of both.

' ..last 12 days with normal use, which it defines as 30 minutes use per day with the backlight off.'

I have a 615 (and yes, the battery life does suck .. but I used to have a Vx so not really fair to compare) and I don't think I have ever used it with backlight off. You can't see a thing without the backlight. I would be pretty sure that my 615 would also last 12 days if I didn't use the backlight!

So I am apprehensive on the SJ30 having better battery life.

I'm wondering if they have a Memory Stick slot. The article doesn't say that it does, and I've not seen a picture of the Sony that shows an MS slot. Just wondering.

Gordon

Gordon