Comments on: Palm Confirms m130 Does Not Have 16-Bit Screen (Updated)

True, but my m130 was $120 less than the t665c. I'll put up with the screen for a 30% savings. Don't tell me about the t616C, I'd have to buy a new Stowaway for another $100.

mine was only 150. for that price i dont care how much it displays, although it would have been nice to buy a product with real 16-bit color. but hey, it was only 150!
-alex

---------------------------------------
Check out my site:
http://home.attbi.com/~ajramos/
The Untouchables live on!
And host pictures [:D]

yeah u got what u pay for...

I'm not sure which is worse; that they didn't know or that they did know and still claimed 16-bit. Either way it's pretty bad.

Did anyone that bought this product actually think it was 16 bit? If so they obviously never turned it on and used it. It's amazing how people can act surprised now. Big deal...get over it.

You can look at it from any point of view - however you massage it, what turns out at the end of the day is, that from the Palm CEO - headed by the incredible idiotic Benhamuchi downwards the whole Palm management ist totally incompetent.
They do not know their customers, dealers nor there markets - they would not get a job as dishwasher if there would not be the madhouse Palm taking everybody, provided he is a proven stupid or a former (for incompetence) sacked Apple emploee.
Who wonders the stock of a active company fell fron over 100 bucks to 70 cent?
Thats not the failing economy - thats pure reality carved in stock value.

To the second poster in this comment - what are you made of? Get over it? Are you that fool in Palm that made everyone believe it was 16-bit instead of 12-bit and now 'GET OVER IT?'

Boy, I hope whomever your employer is don't really know who you are. If I were the employer I will sack you and let's see how you get over it.

Palm, you are such great disappointment to have only 'discover' it only now.

What are you guys doing at work? having 8hours continuously running tea break?

Of course they didn't know. They just lied. Palm is the cheapest handheld manufacturer out there, and you have to be literally insane to buy one at this point. Why should you pay for a Palm when you can get a Sony handheld with the more features and higher quality compenents for the same price? Pathetic, just pathetic. The only good thing Palm has done recently is their i705, but who wants bulky, monochrome palm, which if almost featureless, but has a wireless internet connection which costs as much as a cell phone plan? Once again, pathetic.

Not like Palm is the first. HP did the same thing with the Jornada 430 and 54x series. It is quite possible the guys in marketing and packaging were told early on the 130 would be 16bit and proceeded on that while Joe Engineer either gave wrong info or made a change.

A lack of communication between the engineering and marketing groups may explain the error but it does not excuse it. This is really egregious. And Palm certainly let this error persist for a long time. Why didn't anyone in the company who knew the truth (e.g., the people responsible for the screen) alert the company to this earlier? Or worse, what if they did alert the company but Palm decided not to do anything in the hope that the public would never find out?

I'd bet the M130 is made for Palm by a 3rd party supplier. Palm wanted 16 bit, but either through miscommunication or deliberate cheating by their supplier they got 12 bit. Its still their fault for not verifying what they were selling.

Someone got promoted because he run the company so well.

Be honest. Those M130 customers are very lucky persons
comparing to Palm shareholders.

And someone said here Money talks. Not in
NAZ.

Depends on which "they" you are referring to... the marketing department, the managers, the engineers, or the 3rd party suppliers that provided the screen.

In the design, they may have specified 16 bit, and would not know differently unless notified by the vendor or engineering. It may be the same scenario as the IIIc, which could use any colors from the 16bit color table, but could only display a 12 bit selection on the screen at the same time. Still, if it were my company, I'd have at least a couple people to verify that it is exactly what was specified before the ads went out.

> Of course they didn't know. They just lied. Palm is the cheapest handheld manufacturer
> out there, and you have to be literally insane to buy one at this point.

Oh come on, HP released the Jornada 420 in March in 1999 and no one figured out its 16-bit screen was really 12-bit until June 2000. That's 15 months!! HP even released two more models, the 430 and 540 with the exact same flaw and no one figured it out.

This isn't a glaring error. You can't pick up a handheld and say, "That's 12-bit but that one over there is 16-bit."

It was kind of sloppy but not a sign of criminal malfeasance. There were no lawsuits against HP.

Yes, there were no lawsuits against HP, but they did come up with a fair resolution to the issue. THey accepted the fact, admited their error, then offered users options to solve the problem. You could return your handheld for a refund, you could also send in your handheld and recieve credit towards the purchase of another HP model. Or you could say that it didn't really effect you and move on.

So far I have not seen anything other then the 'lump it and leave it' option from Palm.

HP didn't do any of the things you said in the first six hours after the word got out that the Jornada's were flawed. Give Palm a chance to react. If they haven't done anything to redress this problem in a few days, what you say might have some legitimacy.

We've all be spoiled by the Internet Age. We want everything to happen instantaneously. That's why we stand next to our microwaves complaining that heating our lunch up takes a whole MINUTE. But decisions involving large amounts of money aren't made in 30 minutes or less.

It could be all the m130's can be easily fixed. If that's true, maybe Palm will ask everyone to send in their m130 for repair. Maybe they will offer to replace all the m130s with ones that are 16-bit. Maybe it is a software bug and a simple patch will fix it. I'm just pointing out that refunds aren't the only answer. I would rather Palm make the best decision than it make a quick one.

If you believe that they just found out about this today... well I have this bridge you see, but I can't pay the taxes and I would be willing to sell it cheap.

Palm got backed into a corner, they could deny it and get there reputation further trashed, or claim ignorance and buy some time...

If what they say is true and no one caught this with a proof of concept model, then went straight ahead ordered inventory parts and assembled them, then shipped them and no one checked? SOMEBODY is asleep at the wheel.

Back to the point here, sure a reasonable amount of time should be granted for them to check what it takes to repair, study what can be fixed, etc... however what I disagree on is that they have no real comments at all during this time.

In this instance no response, in my opinion, is the same as admitting the likely action to take place, nothing. I think consumers who have bought this model are owed even a simple statment such as 'we will find a fair and equiatble solution to this issue'. No promises, just communication.

I've been reading the comments on here, and I'm seeing stuff from accurate statements to total absurdity.

The truth of the matter is this - Palm lied. They lied on their packaging, they lied on their advertising, and in doing so, they mislead the consumer.

Now, I realize that not too many people would utilize all 65k colors. I don't use all the colors in my palm m515, yet I fully expect it to have 65k colors because they advertised it as having 65k colors.

Palm's already in a precarious financial position already...they cannot afford to fight this one. Either they give 100% purchase credit to the consumers (like HP did), or they lose in court.

Side Note - Palm has changed their m130 web page to reflect "thousands of colors" rather than 65k colors.

Yes indeed there WAS an HP class-action law suit -- I received a letter from the lawyers who wanted to know if I wanted to be a claimant. I refused, but HP did get sued and did have a judgement handed down to them.

Palm screwed up and should do as HP did -- offer a FULL REFUND to any customer who was under the FALSE impression that the unit is 16 bit and is dissatisfied. HP handled their fiasco well. Let's see how Palm will handle this -- I think the FTC would like to know as well.

I don't anticipate ever actually USING the airbags in my vehicle.

However, they sure as h*ll better work if I get in a head on collision.

It was advertised and listed as a feature & benefit on my vehicle, and it d*mn well better be there when I need it.

Don't fool yourselves into thinking this is a "minor" offense just because you may never USE all of the available colors.

Whether the mistake was deliberate, or the product of a beureaucratic miscommunication, the bottom line is that THE END RESULT ***could have been avoided*** cheaply and effectively.

Therefore, the offense was deliberate, regardless of whether the original "miscommunication" (as I'm calling it) was not.

The design of this unit, and even its packaging happened WAAAAY before the re-org, and we all know Palm was full of Suck back then, and possibly still are.

FIN.

There is no excuse.

Didn't everyone say when the M130 came out, that it's screen looked great, even better than the M515. If so, why cry....

I don't know about you, but I am unhappy and I want to get something back, even if it's a coupon for money off Palm stuff. The only way these bastards listen is if you sue 'em. The suit against Palm for the cradles that shorted out mobos was started by some lawyer at www.paulwhalen.com

I'm calling him and I advise you all to do the same. If we can get enough pissed off people together, maybe Palm will listen.

Refunds were offered by HP back then.

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-241337.html?legacy=cnet

I returned my HP after their admission of 12bit color and their offer for a full refund. I was impressed with their cooperation and promptness in issuing the refund. It will be interesting to see what Palm will do.

what refunds? Are we paying by the color now?

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

Nope, we pay by the feature.

32 bit > 16 bit > 12 bit > monochrome.

Each one has an attached value and a target demographic.

What that value is, in terms of a refund, is ultimately up to Palm to figure out now. If I were them I would err on the high side. Their best bet is to follow HP's example, IMO.

Yawn. How's that Memory Stick fitting in your NR70, or that OS 4 upgrade for your N710C?

"The m505 is boxed up in the back bedroom."

If you don't know what to do with it, sent it to me. I could use it for some hardware testing. I went through a few 505's myself before upgrading.

PS: hold the vaseline!

Yawn, hows that ultra low 160x160 resolution display, no sound and having to reset your Palm? I don't want to get into a flame war with some moron, but clearly Sony's offerings are clearly better.

I've gone through an Apple Newton, HP Jornada 420, Handspring Visor, Palm m500 and NR70v. (In that order).

I rate them in this order (based on my satisfaction with them at time of purchase):

NR70V,
Handspring Visor,
Apple Newton,
HP Jornada,
Palm m500.

Yep, the Palm m500 was lousy, it had frequent static problems, meaning it had to be reset. I went through 2 bluetooth cards because, unlike the Sony Memory Sticks, they are flimsy things and break easily unless removed when not in use, and the screen is very difficult to read in 'normal' light (e.g. anything other than bright sunlight or darkness).

I ditched it after about 3 months. The easy avaliblity of the BlueTooth memory stick was the only reason I got it in the first place, and as it's _really_ not worth it.

I am back to zapping stuff via IR until I can get a BT MS. It's a hassle, but it's no where near as much a hassle as having to do complelte battery drains every month on an m500 because of the static problems (which 'don't exist', lest we forget).

"Yawn. How's that Memory Stick fitting in your NR70, or that OS 4 upgrade for your N710C?"

Did I say that I had an N710C??????

I think you are confused. The 505 had the static problem, not the 500. I was only interested in the unused 505 for hardware testing and parts, and also because I can fix the usb problem in two minutes if the warranty is expired.

It's nice that you have the nr70v, which is a great device, but remember a few things while looking down your nose: Not everyone's life revolves around watching two minute video clips. Not everyone wants to carry around one of the biggest pda's on earth. Not everyone wants to keep thinking about if they will make it to their next recharge. If battery life was equivalent to sex life, most Sony devices would be patients at impotency clinics.

Fender, you also said you had an m505, so why should you be unhappy about the m130?

You were making the point that Palm has some problems and so you got a Sony. He was making that point that Sony has its own share of problems.

>I think you are confused.
>The 505 had the static problem, not the 500.

Nope - the m500 very definately did have exactly the same static problem as the m505 (even Palm have confirmed this).

Yes, I believe you now. Wow, I was really skeptical about that idea since the beginning and I kept edging and edging towards the other side. But something really put a question in my mind when I tried putting Zap!2016 on my m105 and it said "Zap!2016 can only run on a Palm device with support for a 16 bit color screen" (paraphrased), which got me thinking about the m130 and how that advertising of "support for 65000 colors" applied to this program. It meant the m130 was 12 bit, but it could run a 16 bit program like Zap!2016 without problems. It all makes sense now. And I just want to thank everybody in that thread, really. Even though everything in that thread on either side was just logical speculation on both parts, that was a true debate. Good job to everybody.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ PLEASE READ AGAIN ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

I was the one who said that it could never happen simply because Palm would remember the flamefest/PR disaster resulting from the HP screens. Wow, was I wrong. I still find it incredible that this has happened again. I agree with earlier posters - how could Palm not know? I realize it's not immediately obvious in normal use, but when you compare 16bit to 12bit images, it should be pretty obvious (at least it is to me). Didn't they check it out?

As to Palm's "explanation," I don't get what they mean by "it actually supports 58,621 'color combinations'" - and don't care to spend the time figuring it out.

Wow. Again, total apologies.

Instead of admitting a 12-bit display, they said "58621 color combinations" with "blending" technique. The term "color combination", I blieve, is the result of dithering (with 4096 REAL colors).

Always be skeptical about the word "Supports" TealPoint uses this for their programs in that their programs have "support" for Sony HiRes, but none are HiRes. Either the screen is 16-bit or it is not. People do not want to buy a house that "supports" floors, but doesn't have any.

I agree about the "support" word and the example about the house that supports floorboards, but in any case if it says it supports 65000 colors why are we talking about 58000 colors when it says 65000? Its either 65 0r 58 thousand. If it was 58000, i would have bought a unit with 65000 which is why i bought the M130 cause it supports 65000 which tells me it doesnt have 58000 but 65000 !! Confused?

OK, so what is it? Is it a 16-bit screen, or a 12-bit screen? A 12-bit screen is 16 * 16 * 16. So if the number of colors really is 58621, then it *IS* a 16-bit screen, but not all combinations of the 16 bits are addressable. 31 is still 5 bits, and 61 is still 6 bits.

I wonder if it really is 16 bit, but something in the display hardware is muddying it up such that what is displayed is somewhat less than 16 bit.

All this arguing about 12 bit, 16 bit. jeez, the difference is 4 bits! that's what, like 50 cents?

I care. I bought a m130 as an alternative to the m505 and other high priced color models. I thought the screen was similar to the m505, just smaller. I have definately noticed that pictures look dithered. I noticed that the day I bought it and loaded some pictures into the Photosuite app. On the thumbnail screen, the colors are awful. There is no way it is 16 bit, or close.

I am disappointed. I may buy a Sony in the next generation of handhelds (if they ever make it here!)

_____
Fammy

A 12-bit screen OK for what most people will do with a Palm. I have no problems with buying a device with a 12-bit color screen. But I do have a problem with buying a device and finding out later that I didn't get what I paid for. Even if the price I paid is still a good price for a 12-bit system, that's not what I put the money down for. When I feel cheated by a company, I don't want to do business with them again. Whether I really feel cheated or not will depend on whether Palm just says, "Oops, sorry," or whether they acutally try to compensate their customers for their mistake. That will determine whether they care about their customers or not.

I assume you've bought a car at some point in your life. Would you feel cheated if the features and options you sought out and paid for were not actually part of the car you bought? If the engine was only a 3.3L instead of a 3.8L, would you feel cheated? Or is that nit-picking, since most casual drivers would never notice the difference?

There's a lot of competition in this market right now, and every specification matters. Maybe 16 bit meant nothing to many buyers of the m130, but here's hoping Palm swallows its pride and does right by those who do care about the issue.

Did people actually buy this product based only on the fact that they thought it had a 16 bit screen? Perhaps they should have looked at the screen before buying. It obviously did not have a 16 bit screen but, really, who cares. Its a pda not a color TV or a PC. It will still give them access to important information, their schedule etc.

It's a bit of a stretch for people to act so surprised after the fact. Take responsibility for your own purchase and let Palm decide how they will handle their own consumers. The world will not stop turning simply because Palm said a product was 16 bit when it actually is 12 bit. I think everyone should find something else to complain about because this is not a big deal.

Give Palm a couple days to figure out what they are going to do. This news just broke TODAY. They haven't said they won't offer refunds. Give them a couple days to decide what they are going to do before you get up on your high horse.

Could be their manufacturer put in a single wrong component and Palm will do a recall where they fix all the m130s out there. Or they might offer refunds to anyone who wants to return their m130. Or possibly even mail a check for $50 (or some other fair amount) to all m130 owners.

Point is, it's too early to get a heated up when you don't have all the answers yet.

So as long as the unit turns on and stores information they can say whatever they like about it?

Using your logic, they could sell monochrome units and call them color, and it wouldn't matter since it still displays the calendar and address book.

Just because the given feature doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

I think the point is not 12-bit vs. 16-bit screens. I agree with one of the earlier poster.

The POINT is the notion that you SHOULD get what you pay for from a trusted company. Palm should back what they advertised.

Now that it's out that the screen is actually 12-bit instead of 16-bit, and give me a break!! Palm had to know the error. It's just unclearly when they knew it, and how long they decided to ignore it.

The point is: Palm has breech the trust of their loyal customers.

If you are wearing glasses you should get it changed because 16bit is totally different from 12bit. I have an M505, Prism and M130 and I was curious why the M130's color looked so bad. If you compare a 12bit and 16bit you will see the difference.

> Palm had to know the error.

I said this before but it apparently needs to be said agin.

HP released the Jornada 420 in March in 1999 and no one figured out its 16-bit screen was really 12-bit until June 2000. That's 15 months!! HP even released two more models, the 430 and 540 with the exact same flaw and no one figured it out.

This isn't a glaring error. You can't pick up a handheld and say, "That's 12-bit but that one over there is 16-bit."

It was kind of sloppy but not a sign of criminal malfeasance. There were no lawsuits against HP.

Once someone did figure out that the Jornada 540 didn't have the advertised specifications, however, HP acted very quickly and decisively, offering full, unconditional refunds. That's why there were no lawsuits: HP satisfied its obligation to the customer. Palm's solution must involve a full refund for anyone who wants one; otherwise, litigation is possible.

So how long have you worked at Palm? Idiot.

You just feel sore.. cause you got it for over a month and can not return it to get full refund any more.

Well.. you are the first one in the world I heard who says you can not notice the difference between 65536 color display and 400 color display. WAY DIFFERENT!!!

Oh my, my m505 dosen't have the color blue I really wanted, where's the number to my lawyer?

I think it rather humorous that some people are saying that you shouldn't complain because it should have been obvious that the screen was 12-bit, while someone else is saying you shouldn't say Palm lied because it could easily take this long to figure it out because the difference is NOT obvious! Some people will just do anything to defend their beloved Palm. Face it, they screwed up majorly here, and had better make some serious ammends.

The above car analogy is right on, and can be compared to a true incident. Mazda advertised their 2001 Miatas as having a certain amount of horsepower (can't remember exactly how much now, but it was better than the prior year). Come to find out (luckily, early on) that the horsepower measurement was not accurate, and the cars only had a few more horsepower than the year before.

Mazda carefully notified everyone who bought the cars, published it widely, offered full, no-question refunds, and for those who didn't take the refund, they received a large gift certificate for Mazda parts & accessories. It was a generous offer, and immediately satisfied 99% of the Miata-buying public (which, like the Palm public, is loyal and loud).

It DOES pay to own up fast, and make some sort of gesture. Would it kill them to offer a memory card or some little dongle to make nicey-nice? Although, considering their financial standing, maybe it would.

Can PALM stock holders survive another blow in the coming future? Hold on to your seats before it reaches 50 cents...

It is sad...

"lack of innovation"

I believe none of us would be here if it weren't for palm. They created the world's first REAL (not newton or psion) handheld organizer that did alot more than one of those cheap fold-up organizers. Palm has been here (in the handheld market) way longer than Sony, Handspring,etc. Most people I know and newspapers refer to these handhelds as "PalmPilots", and not Clie's or Visors.

yes, I agree that Palm was dishonest with this 12-bit deal, but I don't really care. Even if Palm offers refunds, I will not get one (I have an M130)because I like my m130 and it doesn't matter to me if it has 12-bit color because I don't have photos. I guess you could say that it's a real competitor for the Treo 90 because they both have 12-bit screens but IMO the m130 is better because it supports SDIO and can use all of the Universal connector accessories (I haven't seen one Treo accessory, besides cases and extra sync cables) and has a better screen. I don't like the Treo's built-in keyboard because it is too small and it's hard to get to the main menu. I suggest that unless you use your M130 like a Clie, don't get a refund. IMO it should do a good job of what it was meant for and was not made for intensive multimedia use so the screen should be good for your use and money.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

Palm stopped "innovating" after OS 2.

As for you not returning your m130, well that's your choice. One question...why did you get a color handheld in the first place? Surely the monochrome ones can perform all the functions that you said you needed and they are cheaper.

To the first guy "useybird", it is your choice not to get any refund but I for sure will be getting it coz I felt cheated of such feature that never exist at all.

This is not just about from a 16 to 12 bit screen but the perceived features that comes with the product to consumer like us.

The outrage is complaining about this now. Anyone that bought a m130 thinking it was a 16 bit machine was either blind or stupid. Ultimatley, however, does the fact that the m130 does not have a 16 bit screen really alter the functionality of the product? NO!

You seem to miss the point. You have been swindled by Palm. First the m505 HotSync issue now this. Where does it stop? You do realize that a 12 bit screen is cheaper than a 16 bit right? See my point? Now who is stupid?

Of course it alter the functionality of the device. If it says it can display 65K colors but turns out missing some 60,000 colors. It is unable to perfomed functions as described in the specification.

Will this matter to a color blind person who only need PIM features? probably not. But for buyers who actually expecting 65K colors to all show up, it matters.

RE: It is an outrage!
Posted by: I.M. Anonymous @ 8/19/2002 1:28:52 PM

The outrage is complaining about this now. Anyone that bought a m130 thinking it was a 16 bit machine was either blind or stupid. Ultimatley, however, does the fact that the m130 does not have a 16 bit screen really alter the functionality of the product? NO!

In actual fact your comment is an outrage! Why would somebody have to be stupid or blind to think it was 16-bit? Anybody that purchased the m130 did so in good faith. How many people are going to do in-depth bitrate tests on a product as cheap as the m130? Nobody would be my guess! You obviously do not understand that the question here is not "does it alter the functionality?" but rather "did Palm promote something as 16-bit that was actually 12-bit?". The answer is YES they did and they should come up with a satisfactory response by allowing peple to return their units if they require or perhaps giving them a software bonus or a free case or something. I imaging very few people would return their unit.

So where is your m130? I'll bet you don't own one or any handheld made by Palm.

You calmly accepted that HP sold three different handhelds for 15 months with this same problem but when Palm does it, there should be some kind of Congressional investigation. Your comments appear to be wildly biased.

HP didn't offer refunds to all Jornado owners the day they found out about the problem with the 420, 430, and 540. Give Palm some time to react. They will make it right.

It's people on sites like this and our reactions that in part determine what steps Palm will take. Sure, Palm does need some time to get itself straight on this issue (can they?), but they need to know how the owners, and the Palm community are enraged by this situation.

Is this so hard to grasp?

My m130. My wife has it now. So I still have a vested interest in what happens with the m130. I upgraded to a nr70v. A nice clear crisp 16 bit 320x480 screen. Sony took the Palm os further that they ever could have imagined. Thank god for innovation!

But we are getting away from the main issue. The company claims to have not known that the screen was 12 bit. It was a mistake? How?!?!?! And it didn't just come to light. This debate about the screen has been going on for sometime. They are just admitting it now.

You pro-palm people are funny... and sad.

You will defend Palm saying just give it time to react...news flash...they already knew about this!!! Palm's management did not just wake up this morning, looked at their m130 and say "You know...it is 12-bit!!!"

You pro-palm people is just like a loyal dog, no matter how many times your master(Palm) kicks you, you always come crawling back.

It's call a spine, grow one.

The numbers show that the functionality of the product is not as advertised; this is not in dispute. How does that affect the individaual user? That is for the user to decide. An acceptable solution from Palm must include a full refund for anyone who wants one. If they were smart, they would offer an incentive to anyone who doesn't take the refund. A credit (sizeable enough to matter) toward their next Palm purchase could be incentive to hold on to the m130 for awhile and to be loyal to Palm later.

If Palm drags its feet on this issue, angry customers will pull the rug out from under them. Whether or not it matters to everyone, feature misrepresentation is big time.

I work at a store that sells PDA's.
Customers have chosen the M130 over other available units based on the information (Misinformtion) on the box, and in various reviews, that the screen is 16bit/displays 65000 colours.
None of the customers at my store had an opportunity to compare the screen of the device before they bought it, they took it on faith that Palm would give them the information they needed to make an educated decision.
Few of these customers would have had other colour PDA's available to compare the screens.
If they had it to do all over again, choose a colour PDA, would they still choose the M130?
To say that the M130 has a screen good enough to display contact info or memo's does not alter the fact that Palm gave innacurate information to customers. Information that made their product appear in a much better light (no pun intended).
A pattern of mistakes that seem to always be in favour of the manufacturer does raise questions about whether they want to know the truth about their own products, or do they just want to obfuscate enough to deny the competition a fair chance in an open marketplace.
Palm is to blame.
What would be fair recompense for misleading information??

> Customers have chosen the M130 over other available units based on the
> information (Misinformtion) on the box, and in various reviews, that the
> screen is 16bit/displays 65000 colours. None of the customers at my store
> had an opportunity to compare the screen of the device before they bought it

I can't think of the last time I was in a store that sold PDAs and they had the boxes where the customers could see them. They usually don't. Is your store run out of a truck? I also don't remember any stores where they even had the color depth listed on the description tags next to the devices. Your store doesn't fit the model of dozens of stores selling PDAs I've been to. I certainly wouldn't shop there if you couldn't see the device first.

Internet customers on the other hand have a lot more to complain about. Still, if you didn't like the screen, return it.

The store as it happens, isnt run out of a truck, not that that is the issue.
see the following link http://makeashorterlink.com/?G38E12F81

Cnet compares the M130 and the Treo 90, and one difference is that the M130 is listed as displaying 65k+ colours. Many consumers, even those who see the screens before purchasing, accepted the information that the M130 was something we find today it was not.
That is the issue.
That is the outrage.
Thanks to An0nym0vs for the effort to tell the truth.

To the "get over it crowd:"

Several of you wrote that M130 purchasers were somehow "deficient" because they could not "obviously" tell that the screen they were looking at was 12 bit rather than 16. Well, you should consider this:

* Most PDA owners are not bit-jockies and don't necessarily know the significance of 12-bit vs. 16.

* Many pictures (especially those based on 8-bit pallettes are (or should be) virtually identical on 12 and 16 bit displays -- so how are they to tell the difference by in this case.

* The box said: 16-bit/65k colors (this should be enough). I would be inclined to believe the published specs, especially if independed reviews confirmed them. Again, you can't know what to believe if the box is closed, and you don't have the proper resources for an objective test. Also, after the expensive and embarassing HP debacle over the same issue, you would expect that Palm would be careful not to make the same mistake.

Palm needs to make this right with their their customers for whom this is an issue. Period -- every thing else is rationalizing beside the point.

-Brett Blatchley

>>"I can't think of the last time I was in a store that sold PDAs and they had the boxes where the customers could see them. They usually don't. Is your store run out of a truck?"<<

I don't understand you. First off, what does it matter how a store displays an item? That's NOT the issue at all here. The issue is that a company mislead (on purposes or not, it's not truly known yet) their customer base.

A customer should not HAVE to verify that a product offers what it says it offers, especially if it's a product from a relatively trusted company like Palm. It's called false advertising.

>>"I also don't remember any stores where they even had the color depth listed on the description tags next to the devices. Your store doesn't fit the model of dozens of stores selling PDAs I've been to. I certainly wouldn't shop there if you couldn't see the device first."<<

Second off, where in the heck do you shop?

I used to work at an Electronics Boutique, we kept all our Palm device boxes (empty, of course) out on display for the customer to pick up and look at.

I now visit Best Buy and CompUSA all the time, and at these stores here they DO list out the features of the product INCLUDING color depth. And you know what, the local Circuit City does as well!

>>"Internet customers on the other hand have a lot more to complain about. Still, if you didn't like the screen, return it."<<

No, Internet customers have AS MUCH to complain about.

And people who didn't like the screen probably ALREADY DID return it. Again, that's not the issue. The issue is the deception, here, intended or unintended.

I don't even OWN a Palm m130. I've NEVER owned a Palm branded device. I was a Handspring loyalist who then migrated to Sony. However, this situation irks me, because it either smells of purposeful deception, or gross incompetence. You want neither in a company like this.

Funny, I thought that this board was here to share opinions, ideas and post comments on stories. If you find the comments annoying then don't read the board. So you like when corporate America lies? Did you work on the board of Enron? It seems to me that you are the one that needs to grow up.

There is something you don't get. If Palms are simply made for organization and keeping important information, why did handheld makers even bother to release the Visor Prism, the m505, the m515, the PEG-NR70V, the PEG-NR70, the PEG-T615, the PEG-T665, etc.? Color models are far more expensive, use battery power faster, and use more memory when it comes to color applications.

Maybe it's because they thought people WOULD like to see pictures of their family's on their handhelds. Quote: "If you want to look at pictures, buy a photo album." If I want to show pictures of my family and friends to people I know, I'm supposed to bring a photo album with me wherever I go? OK...

And maybe when I'm waiting to be picked up from school, and I'm bored, I would like to play a game or two just to pass the time. But I have to bring my Game Boy Color and my game cartriges with me to school too?

Yes, Palm handhelds are designed to be great organizational tools, but if you spend the extra money for more features, you better get the features promised to you.

I've been a Palm fan since the first models rolled out, and I agree that there are Palm-bashers around here, but I don't see why that means Palm should get a pass on this.

The fact is Palm posted and advertised false information. Either they had no idea what the screen color depth was, or they knew and lied about it. Neither possibility is very reassuring, and in either case the consumers who relied on this information to their own detriment should be made whole, if they wish.

You are correct, this is an area to share opinions. However, it is sad that so many people have nothing but negative things to say. Does anyone actually know that Palm lied? I think not. At this point all we know is that they made a mistake and have admitted it. If they fail to make appropriate compensation to any consumer that feels that they were wronged in some way, people will have every right to complain. Give Palm the opportunity to handle the situation before you start complaining.

As for the rest of your post, Grow-Up!

The problem is not if the m130 is good or bad, the problem is Palm is not giving what they are promising , even if you can't notice it. PIC helps to clarify these issues.

I'd be curious to know how many of the people freaking out here actually own m130s. I'd be willing to bet absolutely none of them.

Am I missing something here? Palm admitted today that their was an error made and now people are talking about corporate fraud. Should we not be waiting to see what they do to compensate the actual M130 customers before we talk bad about them? My wife has an M130 and when I told her about the situation her response was "oh". My guess is that very few M130 users won't care. Further, I would tend to think that Palm will attempt to make some compensation. To me this is all a bit silly. If they lied, they will probably be caught. However, if it was an honest mistake should'nt we give them the every chance to make things right with the actual consumers that are affected?

But how many of us own Palm stock? How many of us are running the Palm OS and thus have some stake in the company's future success, which incidents like this clearly don't help?

It's not the end of the world, and it doesn't mean the m130 is junk or that Palm is a horrible company. I'm hoping they do the right thing, which is offer some remedy to any customer who wishes one, some kind of rebate or replacement. There's lots of possibilities.

Many people here seem to think Palm has no responsibility in the matter at all, which is a little scary... and exactly why people are worried about it, if that turns out to be Palm's mindset.

I'm not sure that people are thinking that Palm has no responsibility here. Obviously they do. Will this shake the stock price? Doubtful. Will this cause a mass conversion PPC? Doubtful. Will this hurt Palm long term? Doubtful. All of the Palm OS companies have made mistakes. What is important is how they respond to them. Take Handspring for example. They release the Treo 90 with a back light and stylus problem. When they realized what was going on, they fixed the problem. To me that is important. The fact that an error was made is nothing new. Every manufacturer of consumer products makes mistakes, it is how they fix them that tells what kind of company they are.

It scares me to see people who can actually look at this situation, and say, Grow up, m130 is still a fine PDA. How many times do they need to be reminded that that is not the point? That they would take the time to write sincere posts trying to teach us, it really scares me...

Enlighten us, please, what is the point?

I do own Palm Stock and will say that people who continue to support and accept major corporate "mistakes" will continue to get corporate "mistakes". The mistakes rarely, if ever, in the favour of the consumer or general public. Accept this behaviour, thus promoting it if you will. I will not and do hope that Sony will start looking into a takeover.

I'm quite sure that no one is "promoting" corporate mistakes. However, anyone that works in the corporate world will tell you that it is impossible to be perfect all of the time. If this was an "honest mistake" as Palm claims, they need to do something significant to rectify the problem. If they knew all along that they were misleading consumers they deserve to pay the price. However, to say that accepting that mistakes happen equates to promoting the behavior is foolish. Also, given Sony's history of producing flawed consumer electronic devices, I fail to see why anyone would want them to purchase Palm. Palm needs some help at the corporate level but it is doubtful that Sony will continue to develop platform.

Jeez guys, think of it from the point of view of a person who spent 3 weeks wages on a 130 cause it was all he could afford.
If you buy a 1.8L car you expect a 1.8L car, not a 1.3L. See, and Im a computer tech, I did notice that the screen colours were very harsh, and diffused. And to find out I have been lied to, well, would you be happy if it happened to you, Grow up and realise not everyone has thousands of dollars to throw around goin, "oh thats ok, I realy didnt want to buy what I payed for, I'll just get a sony...."

To the original poster:

Grow up! Don't you know you have to carry a lot of gadgets and spend lots of money to buy a Gameboy, an iPOD and a photo album while you can get all three in one package! How come your head is still in the stage that a PDA must be a PDA and could not be something else? Grow up! Without that kind of innovation why people would buy new gadgets? Without the stimulation of a purchase how could a company survive?

If your vehicle is advertised as having functional airbags, then it should, even if you never get in a crash.

This isn't the first "can't be fixed by a Help Desk" error by Palm.

That whole place must be cursed.

It's not ugly. And it's not overpriced. $250 for a handheld compared to the $300 Treo 90, the $400 m515 or PEG-T665, the $500 PEG-NR70, or the $600 PEG-NR70V.

yea but you are comparing it to handhelds that arent even in the same category as the m130. the treo 90 is yes, but you cant compare an m130 to an NR70v or a 665. something that has high resolution, and an actual 16bit screen.

"well your honda accord is overpriced, and ugly"
"well its not ugly or overpriced compared to a lexus, cadilliac, mercedes benz or bently!"

i mean come on, get some commen sense about the handhelds you are comparing, before you try and compare them as in the same category.

____________________
Ever notice how fast Windows runs?

Neither did I.

Actually it appears the screen is capable of displaying 65K colors. It's the software that is limiting this. Which means that it's possible a firmware update could fix it.

The original Sony CLIE N710 had a 65K color screen but only displayed 12-bit. The N760 had the same screen but had updated OS to display 16 bit color.

Wrong:

The original Sony N710C screen showed 16-bit color. However, it came with Palm OS 3.5, which only supported an 8-bit color mode. You could have at most 256 colors on the screen, but the color could be picked from any of the 64K colors available.

When Sony updated to Palm OS 4.0 on the N610C, they got the benefit of full 16-bit color mode, allowing direct manipulation of the pixel colors.

I seriously doubt the current m130's could be updated to 16-bit color in software. Internally, the device is running in 16-bit color mode already; the low-bits of color information just aren't hooked up to the screen, since the LCD doesn't have enough variability to do support more than 4-bits of color information for red, green, and blue.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

*Crash Override sits back quite stunned*

Jeebers man you know your handhelds!

"Vulcans do not touch food with their hands"
"I'm gona love to see ya tackle the spare ribs"

"Did you know that most of Palm Inc.'s handheld screens are manufactured by guess who?... Sony! Their greatest competitor. I reckon this was just Sony's clever way of getting their own back on the worlds best handheld manufacturer, by sending Palm some display units with 65K written on 'em and waiting to see what happened."

What an idiot, I can not believe that you actually wanted to turn this to "it's not palm's fault, it must be Sony!"

Yeah right, it was all Sony's plan to ship Palm 12-bit screens, then pay off Palm's engineers and quality inspectors, all in a plan the make Palm release and advertised a 16-bit color handheld while it's really 12-bit.

Wow, I don't think that even Oliver Stone could have thought of this one.

"Did you know that most of Palm Inc.'s handheld screens are manufactured by guess who?... Sony! Their greatest competitor. I reckon this was just Sony's clever way of getting their own back on the worlds best handheld manufacturer, by sending Palm some display units with 65K written on 'em and waiting to see what happened."

Hmmm...you from Palm trying to blame it on Sony?

wondering what the heck the **** was for, then I realized it was probably 'corktail'... ;)

"I think Palm should give m130 owners the option of a $50 Palm Store credit (and owners keep their m130's) OR a full credit to the Palm Store in the amount paid for the m130 with proof/return of the m130"

Giving m130 owners refunds/credit would be the best solution. However, I think the Palm will have problems. The HP refund/recall was sucessful because of the volumn that they sold and they sold mostly to indivuals.

What Palm face is the sheer volumn handheld that they sold (quite more than HP) and that some of their units were brought in bulk to cooperations.

Oh please. What corporations bought the M130 in bulk?

As paper weigh?

Wow... those comments are really sad. Do you honestly believe that consumers that are lied to don't deserve to be reinbursed for flat out lies perpetrated by Palm? Maybe I just don't prescribe to your theory of having the consumer "take the shaft one more time"...

Consider all the flak Treo had to take for their 12-bit screen. Lucky Palm, they didn't have to get any of that. Heck, maybe Treo should have taken a page from Palm's book and just called it a 16-bit screen. Perception is reality: If the buyers don't see a difference, there is none.

To further improve margins, they could buy rejected Dragonball processors that only run at 25 mhz, but of course keep 33 mhz on the package. If anyone benchmarks it, they could say "our buyers didn't tell us!" or "you shouldn't be able to tell the difference. Besides, doesn't your calendar still work?"

> Consider all the flak Treo had to take for their 12-
> bit screen. Lucky Palm, they didn't have to get any
> of that. Heck, maybe Treo should have taken a page
> from Palm's book and just called it a 16-bit screen.
> Perception is reality: If the buyers don't see a
> difference, there is none.

My comments come from the fact that I compared an m130 screen to a clie n760 screen, and thought that the m130 screen was horrible.

Sure, they're both labelled as 16 bit screens, but I was still aware enough to form my own opinion of the screen without looking at specifications.

I think it's incredibly stupid when the qualitative value of an aspect of a product (ie: the screen) is judged by the "quantitative" properties (ie: resolution, color depth).

Besides, the m130 DID take alot of flak for the screen when I saw reviews of it. Those reviewers were also obviously able to form their own opinions as well, instead of relying on the specs on the box.

> To further improve margins, they could buy rejected
> Dragonball processors that only run at 25 mhz, but
> of course keep 33 mhz on the package. If anyone
> benchmarks it, they could say "our buyers didn't
> tell us!" or "you shouldn't be able to tell the
> difference. Besides, doesn't your calendar still
> work?"

That argument doesn't relate, because the only comparison between a 25mhz cpu and a 33mhz cpu is the speed. When comparing screens, it's a matter of opinion of screen quality, not a benchmark.

> Wow... those comments are really sad. Do you
> honestly believe that consumers that are lied to
> don't deserve to be reinbursed for flat out lies
> perpetrated by Palm? Maybe I just don't prescribe to
> your theory of having the consumer "take the shaft
> one more time"...

Who lied? Think about. Who lied? Did Palm sell the m130's with magic glasses that made the screen look like it was 16-bit, and then took all those magic glasses away today, revealing their true colors? (pun intended)

---
Wooo!

To a certain extent you are right, that people should see the display to see if they like the sharpness, the size, the brightness, and so on.

But "16 bit color" is a pretty firm statistic. Why not call it 32 bit color, if it's the customer's job to test and inspect the product and make sure all the statistics are accurate?

> But "16 bit color" is a pretty firm statistic. Why
> not call it 32 bit color, if it's the customer's job
> to test and inspect the product and make sure all
> the statistics are accurate?

Well, phrases like "12 bit color", "16 bit color", etc are the only way that we can quickly understand what the screen would look like if we were to see it. Can you imagine a box that said "Displays up to 4096 colors at a time from a selection of a 50,000+ color palette"? I know I'd probably laugh my head off. It would probably also just confuse people as well.

I think that a specification like that really shouldn't be taken as the word of God. I know that the Clie T615 is supposed to be 64k 16-bit color, but it's so washed out that the average person with good eyesight would only be able to distinguish about 5000-10000 of those colors. Should Sony be held financially responsible because their backlight washes out the colors so much, that the full spectrum cannot be clearly seen?

For the screen, it really IS the customer's responsibility to decide whether or not it's good enough for them.

Now that I think of it though, the only way I'd actually hold Palm responsible is if they advertised "16-bit", and a Palm program that required 16-bit color failed to run on the m130. Other than that, it really is the owner's own responsibility to decide on the screen.

---
Wooo!

>Who lied? Think about. Who lied? Did Palm sell the >m130's with magic glasses that made the screen look >like it was 16-bit, and then took all those magic >glasses away today, revealing their true colors?
>(pun intended)

By lied, I meant that they sold consumers a product that was not to specification (as according to their own packaging). What if I sold you an epi-pen with an "advertised" expiration date of 2003, when it was actually 1993? I'd go to jail, that's what.

>That argument doesn't relate, because the only
>comparison between a 25mhz cpu and a 33mhz cpu is the
>speed. When comparing screens, it's a matter of
>opinion of screen quality, not a benchmark

The argument does relate. The objective "speed" of a CPU (all other details equal) is its clock rate (25 mHz versus 33mHz). The subjective question for you to answer is "Is this CPU fast enough for my applications?" The clock rate should provide information to help you make that decision.

For the LCD screens the objective criteria is how many different colors it can display (2^12 versus 2^16 in this case). The subjective question for the consumer is "Is this display good enough for me?" Again the objective criteria should be a guideline for answering the subjective question. However, Palm misrepresented the number of colors that the M130 can display.

How would feel if you paid for a 1.2 GHz Pentium machine and found out the CPU was really 800 Mhz? It would still run MS Word fairly fast but you did not get what you paid for.

I'm neither for Palm or against. I will just wait and see how they handle this delicate situation, especially since I'm not an owner of an m130. Lucky me, perhaps, but Palm related news is always interesting when there's so much heated debate over one topic. However:

: By lied, I meant that they sold consumers a product
: that was not to specification (as according to their
: own packaging). What if I sold you an epi-pen with an
: "advertised" expiration date of 2003, when it was
: actually 1993? I'd go to jail, that's what.

This is a poor analogy, thus making your argument somewhat confusing, since expiration has nothing to do with the situation. Or, maybe it's just me.

Jim

If Toytoa sold you a car and told you that it was a V8, advertised it as a V8, and put 'V8' logo on the car but later 'found out' that in reality it was a V6 it's not a problem?! Most people don't lknow how to open the hood of their car, much less know how many cylinders are actually in the car. Does that mean, since the car runs and gets you from one place to the other that Toyota is completley in the right? After all, the owner didn't notice the loss of horsepower -- that makes it alright. Right? Right? WRONG.

"What if I sold you an epi-pen with an "advertised" expiration date of 2003, when it was actually 1993? I'd go to jail, that's what."

You'd go to jail anyway, unless you were a pharmacist.

----------------------------------------

As heard on "Cheers":
All:NORM!
Woody:What's up Mr. Peterson?
Norm:The warranty on my liver!

And how do you know he isn't? Pointless argument for argument's sake.

big_raji,

My view is that you're letting Palm off too lightly. We're mostly pro-Palm here (this is Palm Infocenter, after all), but saying that "Palm would be stupid to issue refunds/rebates/coupons or whatever" since the onus should be on customers to verify that they got what they paid for, is going one step too far.

Product information and specifications are a key predicate for purchasing decisions. If Palm had stated accurately that the m130 had a 12-bit screen, it is possible that many consumers would have then done their sums differently and ended up buying a Treo 90 or a Clie. Some may not have been willing to pay the same amount that they did, if they had known that the screen was 12-bit. Worse, for some the 16-bit screen may have been a key purchasing factor, without which they would not have considered the product in the first place.

A seller has a legal obligation to deliver its specified product in return for the price agreed. That is why Toshiba faced a potential large class-action lawsuit recently when it surfaced that their old laptop drives MIGHT lead to data loss (even though it had never happened). And why HP faced the same over the same 12-bit/16-bit issue on the Jornada line. You can't argue, simply because consumers probably didn't tell the difference, or didn't verify the difference, that you are entitled not to deliver the product that you specified.

To be on the safe side Palm should offer full refunds on the m130 to anyone who asked. This is the most customer-pleasing solution in the light of the debacle, and likely a substantial number of m130 users, being pro-Palm, may not even take the proffered refunds. But goodwill is the key thing to maintain here. If you don't at least make the offer, you will just alienate your consumers. And considering Palm's current financial straits, they just can't afford that right now.

> big_raji,
>
> My view is that you're letting Palm off too lightly.
> We're mostly pro-Palm here (this is Palm Infocenter,
> after all), but saying that "Palm would be stupid to
> issue refunds/rebates/coupons or whatever" since the
> onus should be on customers to verify that they got
> what they paid for, is going one step too far.

You may be right about me letting them off too lightly... My only problem is that it was very easy for me to see that the m130 screen didn't look very good at all when viewing full color screens, so it's hard for me to have sympathy for people that would suddenly "realize" that their m130 screen was sub-par.

Personally, I'd relate it to buying a feather pillow. You take the pillow home, and it doesn't feel very comfortable at all. You use it for awhile, and decide to keep it anyways, since it suits your needs. Months later, you find out that it wasn't really a feather pillow, and now you're angry. You had a chance to try the pillow for months, knew it wasn't very good already, and should have returned it and bought another brand. You shouldn't really have a right to be angry. I wouldn't pity you in that case at all.

---
Wooo!

I disagree. I certainly have in the past bought products I didn't care for, but just have not been able to find time to return them, or would have to pay a shipping fee to return them since I buy off the internet a lot. If I found out that the product was falsely advertised, I would be VERY upset. The fact that I didn't return the product does not mean I was happy with it.

So you are saying Palm gave false information about their product and the customer is to be blamed. This is so ridiculous.