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Comments on: Rumor: More Info on Palm's Upcoming Models

Geek.com has obtained more leaked information on upcoming handhelds from Palm Inc. This comes from the same person who leaked info to that site on these models earlier this week.

According to this source, which the site characterizes as very reliable, the names "Tungsten" and "Zire" will be the names for product lines, like the way Handspring makes the Visor and Treo lines. The Tungsten line will be high end and run Palm OS 5, while the Zire line will be entry-level and run OS 4.

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Zire Huh...

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:05:33 PM #
No universal connector and just a mini-USB cable...man, this really is entry-entry-level...
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:07:16 PM #
On top of that, not only will it be a monochrome screen, but it won't be LCD. It'll be etch-a-sketch. When you're done drawing graffiti, you shake the Zire and it disappears. Very nifty.
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:12:15 PM #
Palm is too late, another manufacturer already came out with one that has a peel-and-erase screen, and that technology would be similar enough for a patent infringement lawsuit :)
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:14:02 PM #
Sort of redefines the term "universal connector" don't you think?
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:15:10 PM #
I wish it supports SD card.
This makes the Palm much more powerful.

Just wonder how much the SD support will add
the cost to the machine.

Anybody has knowledge of this?

RE: Zire Huh...
Token User @ 8/29/2002 4:18:13 PM #
MY guess is Zire is set to compete with devices like the daVinci (http://www.royal.com/content/pda/comparisons.adp), rather than lowend Sony, Handspring, whatever devices.

My mother doesn't need the same capabilities I do. Like many users, this device will be a replacement address book with a builtin calculator and calendar. She probably wouldn't load up anything else, and will be lucky if she remembers to back it up (ever). I think she is the type of user this device will be targetted at, not the average PIC reader.

RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:20:57 PM #
looks like the m105 blows the doors off the Zire, for probably around teh same cost.
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:23:55 PM #
For all we know, the "low end" palm might be $49 with everything they are leaving out (only 2 meg, no cradle). Imagine how many devices they could blow out the door at Wal Mart for that price!
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:36:05 PM #
They'd never release a new device that costs as much as an older device and has a LOT less features. I bet this is going to be <$80
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:38:14 PM #
Oh, they wouldn't release a device that is underperforming yet costs as much as an older device, huh? You must not be getting the same vibes from Palm as the rest of us are. I would stake...my granny's cookie jar on the fact that this unit will be priced OVER $80 and most certainly will make liars out of Palm (again) with their much touted promises of adherence to the Universal Connector. I suppose those were just little "white lies" designe to get us to abandon our Vx's and buy m500s, thinking our new keyboards would be future proof for a couple more years. Heck, I'd not be surprised if the Oslo/Tungsten models forego the UC as well (citing some vague "port incombatabilities with the new OS" reason).

While in theory a bargain basement unit is a tremendous idea, every aspect of the Zire model is that of a directionless, clueless company with no forward thinking vision whatsoever. I'd think a moderately equipped model selling for around $90 with 4 buttons and the UC would do their reputation less harm than a totally stripped down model whose hardware is totally incompatible with every other Palm unit ever and shares only branding and OS with the rest of the lineup.

So here we go again, Palm's gonna go off and alienate a whole new segment of the user base, *just* as they had managed to cobble together a reasonable lineup of UC/SD equipped OS4 handhelds. If this is an indicator of what's to come, I'd rather have seen refreshed versions of the current lineup for the holiday season (faster draonballs, 16 megs of ram, etc).


RE: Zire Huh...
RobZombie @ 8/29/2002 4:53:54 PM #
> I suppose those were just little "white lies" designe to get us to abandon our Vx's and buy m500s

How many people who had a Vx and then an m505 are going to run out and buy an bargain basement PDA like this? Zero.

Palm is being very smart to target the people who want minimum function for minimum cost. If they can get the Zire out for $50, they will have a huge hit. You are clearly underestimating the effect of brands. Someone who just wants a PIM is going to be thrilled when they find one in a store that is $50 and comes from a brand name they know: Palm.

Palm has a vision for what they are doing. You might not like it but they sell more handhelds than any other company and you're just some guy complaining on the Internet.

RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:57:32 PM #
Troll.


Heh, all kidding aside, you have a pretty good point. I think that a low-cost Palm OS based PDA is in order, but why not stick with the m1XX type connections etc.? Well, unless this new one IS very low cost (a possibility!), it won't sell well. IMO. I mean, they're not even going to have the Palm name -- they'll be regarded as a completely 'new' company by those uninformed about Palm news.

I also don't get the 2 button thing. Really, put a few more cents into it and have 4 buttons.

RE: Zire Huh...
bobes @ 8/29/2002 5:58:22 PM #
It would be nice if it had the universal connector. That way the fold-up keyboards will still be compatible and that will satisfy a lot of student needs.

RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 6:00:17 PM #
Funny, It seems all the Low end Sony stuff (Sj10, Sj20, S320, S360) DOESN'T (Read: DOES NOT) come with a cradle and instead comes with a cable for Syncing and a cable for Recharging (or a combo cable) just like this rumored Zire. So why all the whinning and crying?

The Zire is not intended for those who hotsync daily. Period. It's for on the go people who want a small, inexpensive device to remember all their phone numbers and appts and so on.

RE: Zire Huh...
bobes @ 8/29/2002 6:09:02 PM #
I still don't understand the big deal for having a cradle... I personally don't find it that important. As long as there is some sort of cable to sync then I'm ok.

But I still think that Palm should've stayed with the Universal Connector

universal connector
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 6:50:51 PM #
Either the Zire is not to be a large component of the product line or Palm feels they haven't boxed themselves into a corner with their universal connector quarantees to developers. Perhaps they've worded it more strongly elsewhere, but their wording in this PDF is:
http://www.palm.com/shared_intl2/ie/products/whypalm/Expansion_white_Paper.pdf

"The Future of Palm Handhelds:
...The expansion slot will be an integral part of the majority of our handhelds offered in the next two to three years, with the first product introductions scheduled for the first half of 2001... No matter where the future takes handheld computing, Palm will be leading the way."

They've slipped in the second part of that (my opinion), so maybe the first part too? Either that or delay the product launch and they'll be in the clear in a year or so ;-)

-Craig Bowers

RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 7:05:02 PM #
Remember these specs are just for the first models. According to the source Zire and Tungsten will be brands therefore each brand will eventually have several models. The Zire brands will be for retail and the Tungsten brands will be for the enterprise.
RE: Zire Huh...
mcseym @ 8/29/2002 10:22:41 PM #
I can't understand the barrage of negativity for Palm bring out a low end device. Would I buy a Zire or a Sony NR70V for my wife? The Zire would be perfect and the smarts at Palm know that. All my better half wants is something that (like me) is simple to use, small, reliable and looks good. Now, when she steps on me and the PDA with her stilettos, I won't just be seeing dollar signs in front of my eyes.

RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 9:23:10 AM #
No, I don't think that the majority of posters here have a "barrage of negativity for Palm bring out a low end device". I think it has much more to with the execution of that particular low end device--we're worried about the long term impact on the OS this might have. Better to have a $90 "usable" unit with 4 buttons and Universal Connector than a $50-$60 unit that creates confusion (again) at the retail level and excludes a great number of legacy apps and games. I wonder if they unit will even have an IR port?

Of course, the real tragedy in all of this is that Palm are likely going to sell a unit that should not (since it's too late to redesign it) sell for a penny over $50 for $90-$100 (I predict)!

Thiz Zire in its current execution will...well, it's current execution may very well execute Palm themselves. I think that, on top of everything else, there are going to be a few "joe six packs" at Best Buy scratching their heads and wonderng why the new Palm is named after an African nation. As much as I hate to say it, something "recognizable" by the masses might have been effective, such as the "iPalm 100" or even resurrect the "Palm Personal" moniker.

RE: Zire Huh...
cddv @ 8/30/2002 9:35:33 AM #
> looks like the m105 blows the doors off the Zire, for probably around teh
> same cost

You are comparing what you *think* the Zire will cost on the first day it is released to what the m105 cost 2 years after its release. In a few months, the Zire will drop in price another $20 -$30. Before it is discontinued, it will be half its original cost, if it follows the usual price trend.

Even on that first day, the Zire will have several advantages over the m105. We know it won't have the large housing that turns so many people off. It probably won't have a reduced size screen that also turns people off. That's enough to put it ahead in my book.

I hear people calling for the Universal Connector. I don't think it is going to be an issue. How many people are going to buy a $50 - $60 handheld and a $100 keyboard? About the same number who buy a $500 PC at Wal-Mart and a $2000 graphics card and get mad that the two don't work together.

RE: Zire Huh...
epall @ 8/30/2002 12:59:20 PM #
A palm III is better than a Zire!! You can pick up a Palm III with goodies for around $60. I think the Zire will have to be below $50.

RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 7:04:06 PM #
here's a question...
so the palm name cant be slapped on zire...but what about some sort of "company formerly known as palm label? would that be doable? joe six pack responds, ex-palm rakes it in.
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 10:39:26 PM #
> here's a question...
> so the palm name cant be slapped on zire...but what about some sort of "company
> formerly known as palm label? would that be doable? joe six pack responds, ex-palm
> rakes it in.

answer - Maybe they will do something like that for the first couple of year. It would be a good idea and an a legal license could easily be written. They will do everything in their power to retain as much of the Palm brand identity as legaly possible. What they cannot do is allow brand confussion between Palm and Palmsource and that will be impossible if they keep the Corp name of Palm. The Palm Tungsten from Palm powered by Palmsource will not work. If they do that then any company will be able to be called a Palm PC because the trademark will become dillited and confused and therfore considered abandoned by law. If they tried to keep Palm for both comanies then the term Palm PC will be as common as desktop PC once the hardware competitors start legaly eating away at the trademark by refering to their computers as Palm PC's. "Handsring announces it's latest line of Palm PC's the Visor, Treo....." They would love to do that and they would.
If you don't understand the trademark laws when it pertains to company splits then read this. http://www.pattishall.com/pdfs/TrademarkLicensing.pdf

And remember we are talking about 2 separatly owned but similar companies here not one company selling corn and the other light bulbs.

RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/9/2002 10:49:52 AM #
Of course it could be the greatest of marketing ploys. I buy my highschooler a $50 Zire in two years he want a Tungsten for 10 times as much. Brand loyalty even OS loyalty may have a lot to do with a starter model, would i buy one for me NO but my wife, my mother and my kids who need date books, and contact management that alllo ties together on the family PC knowing that in a number of years and after using a Palm you just know that the next will be a Palm
RE: Zire Huh...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2002 1:49:42 PM #
This is going to sound off the wall, but Zire may actually prove to be a very good move for Palm. See, right now the largest obstacle to PDA's is that most people (not us "techie" types) feel they are doing just fine with a paper planner. They need something that does what a DayTimer/Franklin Planner does, but is easy to learn and use, fits in a shirt or pants pocket, and is less expensive than what they spend on their paper products. Zire fits this model very well, and may be what it takes to make PDA's go truly "mainstream", which will make Palm (and those following this same model) more profitable in the long run, which is what business is all about. Going mainstream is really the only hope for handheld companies to remain profitable, because the techie market is now pretty saturated, and those who buy the newest product as soon as possible and have a dozen "outdated" PDA's are a distinct minority niche.

Just my $0.02. =)

Sliding graffiti area?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:05:39 PM #
They didn't say whether that middle area with the graffiti is going to be a slideable area, or is just a space for a snap-on keyboard or other input device? Anyone?
Cutomer looking at Sharp Zaurus
dmkozak @ 8/29/2002 5:12:18 PM #
Overheard at store with customer looking at Sharp Zaurus. "I don't get it. If I have to slide the thing open to use it, why build in the sliding cover? It seems like one more step I have to go through before using the PDA, and one more thing to possibly break. What's the point?"

If this has driven customers away from the Sharp, rather than toward it, why is Palm trying this? Unless it seemed like a good idea at the time, before anyone knew the sliding cover would be purchase detriment, not attraction.

RE: Sliding graffiti area?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 5:44:43 PM #
There two major points Palm always seem to strive for;

1/ Battery life(hence only using 320x320 not 320x480 & virtual grafitti)
2/ Size. The sliding grafitti area will reduce the size of the unit (maybe slightly thicker) and make it more pocketable. 50% of users will only need to slide open to use grafitti 50% of the time. And yes you would still be able to get to a home button somehow. Remember all this talk about voice recognition, and now the Palm will have the processing power, WHAT THIS SPACE!

Bruce B

Zaurus design makes sense, Palm doesn't
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 1:57:10 AM #
For the Zaurus, the answer is simple: the sliding keyboard gives it a big screen and a keyboard without making the whole thing impractically big. Furthermore, the Zaurus does on-screen handwriting recognition so that for shorter text entries, you don't need to open it.

For the Palm, I don't know why you would want it to slide. You need the Grafiti area for almost everything, and the Palm-with-Grafiti area really is pretty compact already since the screen is smaller and square.

m555 (aka. Oslo)

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:31:22 PM #
Anonymously posted on the net

Release date Last week of October 2002
Likely Part Name Palm M555
Features include but are not limited to:
New Dragonball processor ~175Mhz
New Screen 320X320 65000 color
16MB RAM
Bluetooth included
SD card slot
Headphone port (MP3 support included)

Palm OS 5 , yes that's right Palm OS 5
New included software includes bluetooth based games, standard apps like web clipping, PIM stuff, documents to go, and basic picture stuff.

Expected list price
$499 (I think is expecting a little much, $399 and we're talking a winner)

RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:43:37 PM #
$500 would not be too much if it includes Bluetooth and MP3 support. This is only $100 more than what the m505 is selling for (?). And it has 320x320, mp3, bluetooth..
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:47:08 PM #
Any further proof (ie where this post occured etc) that this is valid?

Was this from a newsgroup?

the m555 name sounds fishy to me, if for no other reason is that 555 is the prefix used for fictitious phone numbers in movies and on TV. Otherwise, the unit sounds top-notch!

Also, any word if this unit supports the current Universal Connector standard?

RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:50:17 PM #
"New dragonball processor ~ 175Mhz"

Bogus -- there isn't and won't be a dragonball processor at that speed.

RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:59:59 PM #
$499 is NOT too much with built-in Bluetooth. The new iPaq with Bluetooth sells for a ridiculous $749 and most Pocket PCs except the low end e310 are all around $599. For a new product line its not bad, and a few months later it'll drop to $449 and then $399. If I had a new line with new processors, multimedia, and OS 5, I'd price it that high too!
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 5:08:19 PM #
> "New dragonball processor ~ 175Mhz"

> Bogus -- there isn't and won't be a dragonball processor at that speed.

Not completely true.

The Dragonball MX1 has an ARM core, has been announced at 150Mhz and is rated up to 200Mhz. And it's been OS5 certified.

RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
Token User @ 8/29/2002 5:24:33 PM #
I thought the first OS5 device from Palm was slated to be a TI OMAP based CPU, mainly because of its "kitchen sink, everything one one chip" design.

However, MX1 hits the 175MHz mark, is certified, and Bluetooth support chips are said to add about $5 to the cost of a unit.

The m555 does sound bogus though. I guess time will tell. I hope the October and price estimates are true ... this could be the device I am waiting on (astill on 3.1H, and 3.0 in my VII :)

Token

RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 5:39:46 PM #
I own a 515 - but I am convinced that if this unit is not at 399 - palm has dug its own grave...for I am sure sony is gonna OVERMATCH - everything palm is giving - at a lower price.
Geez....for the love of God - can't anyone see that sony gives more for your dollar - and has been doing so consistently????
Don't get me wrong...I have been a palm owner for the past 5 years...but its time we accept the fact - sony has given more at a lower price and EARLIER than palm....
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 5:59:51 PM #
This is a fantasy. Palm has publicly announced repeatedly that its first OS 5 model will use a TI OMAP processor.

Palm is losing the name 'Palm', PalmSource is getting it. There will be no more Palm mXXX. I don't know if these new names will be Tungsten or Zire, but they won't be 'Palm'.

Even if it were real, that's not nearly enough RAM.

RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
useybird @ 8/29/2002 6:04:40 PM #
Sounds like m555 is as phony as TV numbers with the same digits.

----------------------------------------
A few years ago at the Sony handheld Dept.:" That's the most stupid name ever. Who would want to buy something called a 'Clie'? You must be out of your mind!"
OMAP1510 is rated at 175 MHz
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 10:36:17 PM #
The rumored 175 MHz number is quite interesting. Check out the TI product bulletin for the OMAP1510 (on the TI web site). This puppy includes a 175 ARM925 core with MMU, 8K icache, 16K dcache, 1.5 Mb of internal low-power SRAM *AND* a 200 MHz C55x DSP core. The extra DSP processor would be quite useful in a non-phone handheld because it's probably around twice as power efficient at decoding mp3 and mpeg streams compared with ARM code.
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo) @ 175 Mhz! Too Kool!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 12:34:05 AM #
Just think, we'll finally be able to play HALO on our Palm Pilots! :)

Too Kool! Yaa hooooooooo!!!!

TI OMAP
Palm_Otaku @ 8/30/2002 1:09:48 AM #
Palm did state that they will be using the TI OMAP chip in one of their forthcoming devices. They also said that they'd be coming out with 3 new devices: low-end; high-end and smartphone.

Maybe Dragonball VZ for the low-end; Dragonball MX1 (an ARM chip) for the high-end; and OMAP for Smartphone? After all, they don't have to use the same processor for all devices.

Too much palm hipe...

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 4:38:12 PM #
Personally, I'm gonna see what Sony has to offer for OS 5. Think about it.

Oslo/Tungsten: no jog dial, sliding graffiti area??? no virtual graffiti, i mean its ugly!

And then what the hell is this zire crap?? 2MB?!? no expansion WHATSOEVER? (no "universal" connect or SD slot) that falls pretty short of the standards nowadays (8mb, at least ONE form of expansion).

Anyway sony has proved very effective incorporating a hi-res screen, memsticks (i have two 128's for my digicam) mp3 and video support (even a low-res digital camera) into it's models all into OS 4.1 - though they're models are really ugly too, they make use of technology. i'd like to see what they make OS 5.

Plus, sony is going to be releasing their 1 GIG memorystick by the end of the year (probably just about the time their next line of PDAs comes out) and that's quote a few simpsons episodes and a few hours of music...

Anway, my 2 cents...

What are your thoughts?

RE: Too much palm hipe...
Moosecat @ 8/29/2002 4:54:39 PM #
Don't get in a tizzy about Zire -- you're not the target audience for it. Palm isn't releasing it to compete against the 8MB, expandable PDAs that currently constitute the "bottom of the line." They are, in effect, trying to bridge the (rather large) gap between those PDAs and the little electronic organizers you see hanging on racks at office supply stores and department stores.

I don't go to McDonald's, order a hamburger, and then say "What is this crap? No porcelain plate? No wait staff? No lace doilies? No romaine lettuce?" The question isn't whether Zire is a good PDA for you, the question is whether it is a good PDA for the money.

And I like McDonald's very much.

RE: Too much palm hipe...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 5:09:52 PM #
Hmm... good points, however, I think Palm's decision to release a very stripped down entry model is flawed... I mean some people might just buy them for a small address book and leave the other functions (multimedia) to their notebook/tablet, leaving other higher end models(read: Tungsten), with limited sales, especially when they look at the prices...
RE: Too much palm hipe...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 5:13:06 PM #
After reading about the new Palms, I think i'l upgrade my Palm IIIx with a Clie SJ20. 16 Megs of Ram, nice 320x320 screen, jog dial, etc. for under $200. Why cant Palm compete with this model???
RE: Too much palm hipe...
useybird @ 8/29/2002 6:07:44 PM #
Say the Zire costs ~$80. You can get an m105 with better features, more memory, and four buttons for ~$75 at Best Buy this week (there is a $25 mail-in rebate). the M105 is about two years older and has more and better features.

----------------------------------------
A few years ago at the Sony handheld Dept.:" That's the most stupid name ever. Who would want to buy something called a 'Clie'? You must be out of your mind!"
RE: Too much palm hipe...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 7:05:45 PM #
> Say the Zire costs ~$80. You can get an m105 with better features, more memory, and four buttons for ~$75 at Best Buy this week (there is a $25 mail-in rebate). the M105 is about two years older and has more and better features.

Good point. However, although some Joe Sixpack might realize this and buy a M105, my grandma may still think that "newest = best", or think that she doesn't need expansion anyway, and get a Zire instead.

Especially if Zire is selling at <$80...

Also, the supply of M105 is limited, maybe it'll be completely out in 4-6 months... (there are just too many m10x series in the store rooms)

RE: Too much palm hipe...
higgy @ 8/29/2002 9:46:47 PM #
Let me lean back and smoke a pype while I consider all this hipe... I've decided its trype but I will not grype.

Higgy

My next purhcase will be sony....most likely.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 10:25:52 PM #
This is an extremely ugly form factor and I really don't care if it beams laser or not. In deciding on form factor and usefulness I think Palm flunked big time.

I thought that Sony flunked the buttons on the T-series, but that's just the buttons. Palm flunked form factor overall and I would issue a warning to Palm that if they come out with this ugly device, you will not be able to survive in 3 years (since the form factor for palm usually retains longer ---V series to M)

RE: Too much palm hipe...
mcseym @ 8/29/2002 10:32:15 PM #
Yeah Sony, bring it on. I pray they include Bluetooth support in whatever they release. Still, I'm not holding my breath for the 1GB Mem Stick.

RE: Too much palm hipe...
adamrichman @ 8/29/2002 11:05:47 PM #
SONY = Soon Only Not Yet

RE: Too much palm hipe...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 11:46:02 PM #
One huge caveat that's kept me from jumping on the Sony bandwagon and getting a NR70V has been the stagnation of memory stick capacities. Well, that, and the fact that I already own a Pansonic SD digi-camera and 6 SD/MMC memory cards.

After a slow start, Sony cranked up the capacity of the sticks and lowered the price, but now it appears they've pulled a Smartmedia and hit the wall.

I think they are going to try to ride out the year with their max 128 meg capacity and ten try and push everyone over to the new MS Duo format (remember, Duos can fit in an existing MS slot with the adaptor). I also forsee Sony/Ericsson making a strong push with Duo slots in next year's phones.

MemoryStick is a loser
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 2:03:30 AM #
I have Sony MemorySticks for my camera and I have to say: it's a loser--it's expensive, it requires expensive readers, it's big, and now there are several different versions of it. And almost nobody besides Sony is using it.

In contrast, you can already get 512Mbyte MMC/SD cards, there are many vendors, and plenty of readers. It is clearly the standard on handhelds. And there are CF adapters for it.

Bluetooth & Expansion in Tungsten?

JonAcheson @ 8/29/2002 5:31:05 PM #
Still no official word about Bluetooth in the Tungsten.

There's no reason to assume that it won't have an SD slot, though.

Jon Acheson


"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

RE: Bluetooth & Expansion in Tungsten?
Ed @ 8/29/2002 5:41:58 PM #
According to previous information for this source and others, this model will have an SD/MMC slot and Bluetooth.

I've added this to the article to make sure you aren't the only one who doesn't remember this from earlier articles. It is pretty important; I should have included it in this one already.

---
News Editor

Thanks, & One Idea for SD & Games
JonAcheson @ 8/30/2002 9:21:31 AM #
Thanks, Ed!

It's good to know that the expansion will be there. I couldn't remember if the source on Bluetooth was credible or not, but if it's the same source, we're good.

Here's one thought about that SD card slot. Since Tungsten seems set up to play games, couldn't someone come out with an SD card that contained not only memory, but some kind of game-related hardware acceleration? Basic 3d, or even just better sprite handling?

This would give you better games, AND make them tied to the card. That would be a really useful form of copy protection.

Jon Acheson


"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

RE: Bluetooth & Expansion in Tungsten?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 3:02:39 PM #
well, as far as having an actual 3d processor on the SD card, i wouldn't think it possible, because of the bandwidth needed (perhaps someone with a greater technical background can elaborate further on this), but basically I'd say it's the same answer for that question as is given to people with older laptops who want to add 3d accelerator cards via PCMCIA slots--not enough bandwidth/headroom. Also remember that some Palm handhelds (Treo 90 etc) are not SD I/O Capable.

Also, i am sure fab costs,size, and power consumption play a role as well (primarily cost).

Now, if anyone remembers back to the old Nintendo and SNES days, nintendo had some sort of gimmicky technology for certain 8-bit NES carts that somehow increased a game's color palette and enabled better music and digitized sound. For the SNES they had some sort of add on chip they called the FX (i think that was the name). It was used on Starfox and on a motorbike racing game to add very basic unfilled polygon acceleration. We're talking sub-S3Virge 3d capbilities but at least it was _something_. Sega also added a dedicated z80 processor to their Virtua Racing cart, back in the later years of the Genesis. The cart was bigger and much more expensive but it did do some nice 3d.

If anything, I'd see Sony partnering with ATI and adding some sort of graphics acceleration into their 2nd gen of OS5 handhelds, maybe mid/late 2003 or so. They already have a nice relationship with ATI to supply some of their desktop and notebooks with graphic cores so this would flesh out their lineup nicely.

I think that for now, it's be nice just to see more games sold at retail pre-loaded onto an SD card to free up precious RAM space (*cough, Rayman, cough*, especially since OS5 units are rumored to only still have 16 megs of ram. Also, having a game bundle/compilation that utilizes the majority of a MMC's capacity would be nice. You really feel ripped off when you look at how much free space is on the Palm Game MMC Card that is totally unusable!

Anyone have an idea about tghe Size?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 5:55:27 PM #
Does this source that supplied the info to Geek.com have any idea on the Size/Weight/Thickness of this Tungsten?

If it's any thicker than a Sony T665 then that would be very disappointing.

RE: Anyone have an idea about tghe Size?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 6:12:14 PM #
But remember that some people find short but thick PDA's are ideal (a.k.a. Clie SL/J series). I don't find this practical, really. I prefer thin PDAs.
RE: Anyone have an idea about tghe Size?
Ed @ 8/30/2002 12:05:03 AM #
According to other sources, the Oslo is about 3 inches wide and 4.9 inches tall when fully extended. When retracted, it is 4 inches tall. It is roughly .75 inches thick.

Note, the .75 inch thickness is very approximate. No one I've talked to has taken a measuring tape to one. What I'm hearing is "A bit thicker than a m515, but not anywhere close to an inch thick" and approximate descriptions like that.

---
News Editor

Voice Recognition ...

Token User @ 8/29/2002 6:15:41 PM #
It is interesting that this model is rumoured to have a mic. It will now also have the CPU horsepower for VoIP - potentially a very cool app.

RE: Voice Recognition
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 6:30:21 PM #
VoIP is very different from "Voice Recognition"... VoIP is potentially useful to enterprises, but VR is still "just" usable on high-end PC's... I doubt we'll see that anytime soon.

RE: Voice Recognition ...
Token User @ 8/29/2002 7:32:04 PM #
VoIP is very different from "Voice Recognition"... VoIP is potentially useful to enterprises, but VR is still "just" usable on high-end PC's... I doubt we'll see that anytime soon.

Really? I'd never have guessed (sarcasm ;)

Actually, I was point out that the new model is rumoured to have a mic, which make Voice Recognition a possibility. However, as you pointed out, VR is barely adequate on a highend PC, but picture this ...

VoIP (much lower CPU resource requirements), but higher bandwidth needs. VoIP connection to a backend server running VXML, VXML then doing BASIC Voice Recognition, and sending the result back to the PDA for use. This would off load the processing to a beefier box, but limit the functionality of voice recognition. VXML can take incoming text, and process it out as soundex phonomes which might then be able to be matched with names, addresses commands, etc.

All very shakey, but the technology IS catching up.

RE: Voice Recognition ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 6:20:34 AM #
Voice recognition isn't necessarily usable only on high-end PCs. For instance, Nokia's phones offer VR (no, not virtual reality ;) from the basic models on. As far as I remember, the 3310 has already this capability. The newer models can also select menu items based on voice commands (hmmm...or was that Siemens? I would have to check this further...). OK, it's only for dialing a number or selecting an item, but wouldn't it be enough for a Palm?

Unless you expect a full implementation of VR to replace grafitti or keyboards. *That* is really a few years off...

VoIP
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/1/2002 8:06:53 AM #
What is it?
RE: VoIP
FredLL @ 9/2/2002 4:26:20 AM #
Voice is encoded and tranported as data over a network (which could be the internet) then decoded.
this could give you very cheap long distance phone calls.
And for the operators the ability to transmit many calls over the same "pipe"
RE: Voice Recognition ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/2/2002 9:30:32 AM #
Nokia phones etc do NOT have what I would call "voice recognition". They do a simple pattern match of two wave-forms. From experience this only works under ideal conditions, and even then is flakey... There is no ability for the phone to learn, or modify it's behaviour (feedback) - they also have no context sensitivity. These features and more are required before VR status should be awarded to phones!

Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 6:28:46 PM #
It certainly makes sense to break Palm handhelds into 2 brands (one corporate/enterprise and one consumer) but it still does not solve their trademark issues. The "corporate" name Palm and Palmsource would still need to protect their trademarks after they become separate companies therefore one of them will drop the name Palm completely.
Reasoning: Once they are separate what happens if Palm and Palmsource both want to offer internet connections or application software? Major trademark issues! Product names and corporate names are both trademark protected. Most people seem to forget that after they are externally separate they will be as separate as Microsoft and Dell, both of witch will aggressively protect their trademarks. It seems that they have been considering these things closely so I do not think that this is the end of the story, I think it is just PART of the story. I believe that one of the companies (probably Palm Solutions) will drop the name Palm completely or just use it as a "holding name" in order to avoid litigation, keep all product lines legally available and have complete control over their brand identity. So the questions is... what will the hardware company name be?
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
Token User @ 8/29/2002 7:18:01 PM #
Why is this such a problem? Why cant they BOTH have Palm in the name??

GE and GE Capital - both have GE in the name, both are traded.
Shell and Shell Transport and Trading - both owned by Royal Dutch Shell, both traded publicly.
Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic, and all the other "Baby Bells" - seperate companies, Bell still in their name.

Nothing wrong with having the Palm Tungsten or the Palm Zire (ala Sony Clie PEGxxx, Handsping Visor Deluxe, ) ... they will all have the "Palm Powered" branding on the outside of the box.

My thoughts. YVMV (and probably will)

Token.


RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
kevdo @ 8/29/2002 8:08:26 PM #
Am I missing something or hasn't the "software" group already changed their name -- to PalmSource?

Seems to me that Palm already doesn't equal PalmSource.

-Kevin Crossman

RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 8:23:11 PM #
Remember Palm and Palmsource will be COMPLETELY separate companies after the spin-off of Palmsource. Therefore the trademark Palm will be owned by one of the companies. More importantly they will probably offer some competing products so if they both wanted to offer similar products or services like internet access or software applications their would be trademark issues because of dilution and confusion.
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 8:48:43 PM #
Reply to:
----Am I missing something or hasn't the "software" group already changed their name -- to PalmSource?

Seems to me that Palm already doesn't equal PalmSource.----

Here is a good example...
Remember the "Palm Pilot"? Palm was forced to drop the name Pilot because of the Pilot trademark owned by Pilot Pen. It is same problem. Everyone seems to forget that once Palmsource is spun-off they will not be owned by the same company and one of those companies will own the Palm trademark.
That company cannot allow their trademark to be dilluted or confused otherwise they risk losing the mark. Even if they licensed the mark for certain products the trademark owner has the ultimite right to decide if another company can release competing products. I think that they are slowly leaking naming information to get users acclimated to a new "brand" after the spin-off is completed.

RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 9:31:15 PM #
Palm has always had a lot trademark issues. Not only did they lose Pilot they had threatened to file a lawsuit against Microsoft when they were pushing the "Palm PC" - Palm prevailed hence, Pocket PC. It seems to me that eventualy they would but heads if they were both to retain Palm in their name. It would be like Microsoft spliting up and calling the other company Microsoft Source. Sooner or later they would be competing and the Microsoft trademark owner would claim trademark rights that would prohibit the other company from releasing competing products. If we did not have these laws anyone could start a firm and call it Dell Source. Actaully you can - but you just cannot compete with Dell.
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 9:31:15 PM #
This seems true otherwise any company could sell a PC called something like the Microsoft Platnium PC - Powered by Microsoft 2000. Of course they cannot because of trademark laws and same laws will apply once they are 2 separately owned companies.
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 3:29:08 AM #
I'm no lawyer, but Palm & PalmSource are going to have to retain "Palm" for brand recognition.
If someone asked you to buy an electronic organizer for $200, you would tell them where to go.
However, if they said, "palm pilot", that would be a different story altogether.
PIC users would know what a "Zire" is, but Joe Average, and his mate Joe Six-Pack, wouldn't have a clue.
It would put Palm bankrupt. Anyway, both are stupid names. But, methinks hardware would keep the name, as brand recognition in the actual units is more important.

Things that make you go Hmmm...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/31/2002 1:28:04 AM #
Lots of questions recently about Palm's brand names and post-split corporate names. I checked the Palm's recent trademark aplications. Sneaky Sneaky - Recently Palm applied for new broad trademarks for Palm and Palmsource. They are probably doing this PRIOR to the change in ownership (spin-off of Palmsource) so that the examiner does not see the obvious dilution issues that the spin-off will cause. They will most certainly receive the trademarks but it will be interesting to see if they will be able to protect them in the future if they are used broadly by both "Palm" firms. The mark would be tested quickly by firms such as Microsoft and Compaq that would love to steal some of the Palm brand identity. Some day this will be a case study in law school.
Name-Game
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/31/2002 1:51:00 PM #
There will be no trademark infringement because Palm will license its mark to Palmsource for a fee while still pursuing other companies without a license to use the mark for infringement. It's as easy as that.
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/31/2002 6:13:20 PM #
response to:
[[[[There will be no trademark infringement because Palm will license its mark to Palmsource for a fee while still pursuing other companies without a license to use the mark for infringement. It's as easy as that.]]]

What you wrote certainly makes sense from a pragmatic standpoint however it does not hold up from a legal standpoint. Palmsource would be the corporate name of a separately owned company that produced the Palm OS and Palm software, ebooks et. If they were to get a license from "the other Palm" then Palmsource would be partialy controled by Palm. They would have to ask Palm before releasing new products and Palm could veto the products if they wanted to. This may work for a product but it would not work for an entire company. If Palm were to give them a "naked" license that allowed Palmsource to do whatever they wanted with their name then they would no longer be controling the "quality" of the mark and could not control confusion and dillution issues and could therefore lose the mark. If you own a mark you must insure that customer confustion does not occur, the customer must know who they are buying the product from. A Palm Tungsten T from Palm, Powered by Palmsource, reading ebooks from Palmsource and running applications from Palm and so on - well I think you get the picture. They can certainly go ahead and do this however they will lose their mark and therefore any company will be able to use the term "palm" to decribe their computers as Microsoft tried to do a couple of years ago with their Palm PC.


Zire Better be $50...

kevdo @ 8/29/2002 7:17:02 PM #
Losing two buttons that **every Palm device since inception** has had is a **big deal**. Thousands of software programs use those buttons (no, not just games) and that is going to cripple a whole lot of the useful software that Palm rightly likes to tout. Can you imagine someone playing for a device like this and attempting to load programs only to have them not work properly with only two hardware buttons (plus up/down). Talk about your class-action lawsuit!

OTOH - if the device is priced at only $50 only then do I feel you're really catering to the folks who are unlikely to ever install third party aps. Those folks won't be affected by this problem.

Palm would be making a big mistake to price this much more than $50. Listen to us Palm!!!

-Kevin Crossman

RE: Zire Better be $50...
adamrichman @ 8/29/2002 10:25:36 PM #
Agreed, the degrade to 2 buttons is another unthinkable **rumored** act if Palm would follow through. $50 should be the MOST expensive it would sell for.

RE: Zire Better be $50...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 10:48:27 PM #
There are probably a million Palm users (5%-10% of the market) who don't install apps or use the MemoPad. This class of users won't miss the buttons at all. New buyers in this class are probably very price sensitive, where just a few dollars in prices can change greatly increase sales volume. Get them with a $49 bubble pack impulse purchase, and maybe some of them will become hooked on Palm and trade up to the higher profit margin "Tungsten" units (or Clies!)
RE: Zire Better be $50...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 8:50:03 AM #
"Class-action law suit"?! You can't be serious. And yes - I can imagine a person who buys a cheap, low-end device only to discover that some functions the device was *not* designed for do not work. Such person would be described best as "uninformed".

A down-market approach by Palm would be: Zire - cheap and simple, if you want something else / better - go for the m130, m5xx or Tungsten.

RE: Zire Better be $50...
Moosecat @ 8/30/2002 9:19:05 AM #
That would be the crappiest class-action lawsuit ever filed, and the lawyers who signed the pleading would be sanctioned by the court.

In any event, I am a relatively advanced Palm user (FAR more advanced than the Zire's apparent audience), and although I rely on all four buttons for convenience, I don't think that any program I use would be "crippled" by losing two of the buttons. (Except for some games... I rarely play button-based games though.) I primarily use the buttons as application switchers, and I can do that (less conveniently) with only two buttons as well.

And the people who buy Zire will not be installing complex relational database applications. A small handful of them might install a recipe tracker, or a football schedule. We're not talking about power users here.

RE: Zire Better be $50...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 4:18:32 PM #
Depending on which buttons weren't there, even something like AvantGo might not work.
RE: Zire Better be $50...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/31/2002 3:29:15 PM #
> Depending on which buttons weren't there, even something like AvantGo
> might not work.

This makes no sense. AvantGo requires no buttons at all.

You are putting too much importance on the buttons or lack there of. Can anyone name a application that requires buttons and is not an action game? I can't.

Tungsten Form Factor

4s @ 8/29/2002 9:23:31 PM #
If all this stuff is true, I cannot, cannot, cannot believe Palm is abandoning the V/m5xx form factor. IMHO, they are still the best looking Palms out there.

I saw a Vx in a store just today and that thing still looks cool.

RE: Tungsten Form Factor
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/29/2002 10:13:59 PM #
I agree that the V/m500 form factor is still the best. But, I'm not sure they'll totally abandon it. It may be reserved primarily for the newest mid-range models, while the Tungsten will be the form factor for the high end.

What disappoints me is the disappearing graffiti area, as opposed to a virtual graffiti area. It just seems silly. Virtual graffiti means more screen area, and that's HUGE--just ask anyone who's used an NR-70 or even a Handera 330. Covering the graffiti to go to the 320x320 square is lame.

RE: Tungsten Form Factor
adamrichman @ 8/29/2002 10:28:12 PM #
Tell me about it. And as a Vx owner I take that compliment personally, thanks =)

Seriously I could get a hi-res, mp3 playing, 128mb (I already have 2 mem sticks) Clie (Which by the way, I really like the name =)), for the same price as a low-res, no mp3, 16 mb (with no expansion) m515 but I'd **much** rather have a m515 just cause they look sexy. I bet clie owners get a lot less "wow that looks cool"'s than m5** owners.

What I don't like about the whole graffiti scandle is that everyone is trying to replace it. The Treo, the NR70, I --love--- the graffiti system, I don't want to have to jump around all over on a keyboard or a thumb-type board. If I wanted one of those I'd go by the latest Sharp organized thats 7 inches wide and 4 inches tall with a 3x1 inch b/w screen.

Form -- Form -- Form!
SuccessWizard @ 8/30/2002 12:59:42 AM #
The Palm V series, the m500 series and the Compaq iPAQ weren't wildly successful because they were the best technology or even the most economical option -- they were successful because of their form. People waited in line for iPAQ's when Casio and HP "bricks" gathered dust on the shelves. Handspring had technically superior products with the first real Palm expansion slots, yet, they never gained the critical mass they needed because the units were "butt ugly" relative to the Palm V / m500's. The Edge was nice, but it didn't have the sex appeal it needed to take it over the top.

Cell phone manufactures have learned this -- at least I think they have.

Mike Lohsl
Palm & ACT! Advisor

www.successwizard.com

[I]Proud user of a Palm i705 Mobile Office and Kyocera 6035 phone[/I]

Palm's advantage over Sony

FredLL @ 8/30/2002 3:11:05 AM #
For me, the biggest advantage Palm offers over Sony is that they provide software upgrades.
If I buy a Hires OS5 $400-$500+ PDA I'd like it to be upgraded to PalmOS 6 when it'll be available.
So far Sony provided this only once (N710-N760 OS3.5-4.1) But Palm does it (you can upgrade you Palm III OS 3.3 to OS 4.1) for a cost.
That would be my best choice provided that Palm's PDA match Sony's one technically.

Fred

don't bet on it
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 1:20:42 PM #
I wouldn't bet on being able to upgrade a PalmOS 5 device to PalmOS 6. Yes, that's what Palm is promising, but until PalmOS 6 is finished, nobody will know for sure what its requirements are going to be.
RE: Palm's advantage over Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/31/2002 5:26:00 PM #
Palms other advantage over sony is that it owns the operating systeem. They can shred sonys licences any time. And if palm dousn't make any new OS Sony wont have a new OS.

hires and codenames

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 3:47:07 AM #
palm os 5 actually supports "high density" images, wich is not the same as sony's hires screen api.

personally i think "tungsten" and "zire" are codenames, just as all the other devices have codenames like that: Tornado (Palm m500), Skywalker (Palm i705), Razor (Palm V). but that doesnt matter anyway. what matters is that i cant await the first os5 device to be released.

Markus Dresch (www.palmside.com)

Wrong Names !!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 5:39:28 AM #
"Tungsten" and "Zire" are just not the name Palm Inc. will use !!

I will bet real money on this.

RE: hires and codenames
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 2:32:59 PM #
Probably not, but for the sake of conversation we must use some reference, don't we?
RE: hires and codenames
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 10:55:02 PM #
Who wants to bet money that the names Zire and Tungsten will not be used. Please send me your email address. To be fair go ahead and do a trademark search in the US, UK and Europe before making the bet.
RE: hires and codenames
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/13/2002 3:35:52 PM #
Tungsten T will be the new OS 5 Device, it's code name is Fargo.

Zire will be the new entry level design, it's code name is cub.

*Yawn*

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/30/2002 3:51:38 PM #
Names don't elicit any response--too esoteric.
Form factor is, well, kind of stupid.
Sliding graffiti cover is also stupid.
Hi-res screen--been there, done that.
D-pad...OK, maybe, but PPC's have had these for awhile.
mp3--been there, done that.
voice recording...score one for Palm.
Bluetooth...maybe, but only if it's relatively inexpensive (i.e., no more than $500).

I'm not sure I can get excited about a PDA that's really only giving me voice recording and bluetooth, but nothing else I can't already get.

RE: *Yawn*
PDA Master @ 9/2/2002 10:16:54 AM #
Voice recording and bluetooth may be pretty good if we could sincronise wirelesly and imput the recordings of voice on to the computer and replay them. With other things bluetooth can be better if palm bundles doc to go and a multimedia app. such as g movie to wirelessly sync with.

--------------------

PDA Master

Oslo is ugly, please don't release it.

speed-angel @ 8/31/2002 11:51:03 AM #
It just looks like a brick and has no resemblance to its big brother M515. To me it is like a sports car vs the old volvo.

People in this forum have been talking about virtual graffiti and thinness. I don't remember anybody say anything about sliding area and thick. Therefore please try to get the size about the same but expand on possibilities with virtual graffiti and/bluetooth built in.

RE: Oslo is ugly, please don't release it.
formerlyanon @ 8/31/2002 2:21:31 PM #
dont dis the volvo!

__________________________________________________________________
My palm III was 50p from a charity shop, and introduced me to pdas

Things that make you go Hmmm...

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/31/2002 5:51:29 PM #
I checked the Palm trademarks. Sneaky Sneaky - Recently Palm applied for new broad trademarks for Palm and Palmsource. They are probably doing this PRIOR to the change in ownership (spin-off of Palmsource) so that the examiner does not see the obvious dillution issues that the spin-off will cause. They will most certainly receive the trademarks but it will be interesting to see if they will be able to protect them in the future if they are used broadly by both firms. These marks would never go through if they were already separate companies. Going forward the marks will be tested quickly by firms such as Microsoft and Compaq that would love to steal some of the Palm brand identity. Some day this will be a case study in law school.
Name-Game

More Info on The PRICE

PDA Master @ 9/1/2002 9:54:07 AM #
Can anyone tell us, or estemate what the price is, like in the $500 range or something.

--------------------

PDA Master

RE: More Info on The PRICE
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/2/2002 7:13:48 PM #
the m500 is gone...look for the new product this week.
RE: More Info on The PRICE
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/4/2002 3:13:50 PM #
This week? Why are you so sure???

I can't wait until october!!

Tungsten Coming Late October!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/2/2002 10:55:46 PM #
I can't wait!
RE: Tungsten Coming Late October!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/10/2002 4:19:28 PM #
I have the tungsten allready. i dont want it, ill trade for a low level laptop. i just dont have the syc cable for it. it wont use the standard or the new one that says it works with the m550. it does however go bluetooth or infrared and you can charge it with the regular cradle
dutchbenendez@aol.com

I just hope....

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/3/2002 3:09:46 PM #
... these new devices will be as rugged as my m505 has been. I can slap this thing in my jeans back pocket and sit on the bus into uni without it even creaking, then sit in a lecture theatre without it creaking, even with a slumped weight on it.

So I hope Palm will be using the same design and build quality that was used with the m500/v series. My buddies clie got a bit broken after he sat on it.(dunno if that is always the case mind.)

> joe

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