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Comments on: Rumor: Pictures and Details of Palm's Upcoming Smartphone

Yesterday, Todd Bradley, CEO of Palm's Solutions Group, said his company would be launching a smartphone on October 28. Bradley said it would be data-centric and use GPRS wireless networks. However, he gave few details about it.

A very reliable anonymous source has supplied much more information about this model, including some images. This device will have a 320 by 320 color screen and a built-in keyboard. Also, it will have a 4-way directional pad (a D-pad) with a Select button in the middle.

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Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?

ahecht @ 9/20/2002 11:44:52 AM #
Or did Palm finally abandon Graffiti too?

RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:47:42 AM #
It ALMOST looks like on the right hand side, it is un attached, while it is attached on the left (the two sides of the keyboard really look different). It's almost as though the entire keyboard will swing out sideways, like a door, hinged on the left, to reveal something beneath. Why, I don't know. If you were going to do that, you'd think you'd put a phone keypad on top, and either graffitti or a thumboard below. For that reason alone, I'm probably wrong, but do look closely at it, and see what you think.

Ken

RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
big_raji @ 9/20/2002 11:48:28 AM #
Good question. I couldn't find any mention in the article. Hopefully it doesn't. I'd like to see a "Graffiti" button that you hold so that you can input graffiti commands on the main screen.

I think it's very strange that a speaker/mic aren't built in.

Palm also better watchout for a lawsuit from RIM. Gee, they've got Oval Shaped keys on their keyboard.

---
What's Wrong With This Picture?
http://raj.phangureh.com/picture.html

Is that a sliding keyboard, or...
sundance_7 @ 9/20/2002 12:06:25 PM #
Or is it possible that the keyboard, D-pad etc are all on the front of the flip-up cover, which covers the grafiti area?

Hmmmm....
sundance

RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
IanJD @ 9/20/2002 12:10:21 PM #
I may be reaching here, but I interpret the dark ring around the d-pad as a gap so that when the keyboard flips out, the pad (and app buttons) stay(s) put and are accessible open and closed.

My main problem with this unit is that if you need to plug the headset in to talk, it's not going to be brilliantly useful for answering calls. Think I'll hold out for an OS5 machine with bluetooth built-in, and let it talk to my t68i.

No sliding keyboard
Ed @ 9/20/2002 12:11:40 PM #
The source has just confirmed that it does not have a sliding bottom and lacks a Graffiti area altogether.

---
News Editor
RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
ahecht @ 9/20/2002 12:58:24 PM #
That's too bad. If it had a flip down keyboard that also had a mic on the end, it could be a pretty descent flip phone.

RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 4:17:42 PM #
What is wrong with "Virtual Graffitti"? I mean, Handera and Sony have shone it to be very usable and when it echos your input, it's fantastic! I just don't understand Palm not implementing it.

Oh well, better luck next time...

RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 12:30:18 PM #
I hate those mini keyboards I'll stick with sony as I prefer graffiti.
RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:37:29 PM #
i also prefer graffiti

RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:37:57 PM #
same here, why does everyone dislike it? it's great!
RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 11:00:14 AM #
It's NOT that everyone hates grafitti. It's that *anyone* who's used an always-on email device (like a blackberry) knows that a mini keyboard is far superior for text entry for email.
RE: Is that a sliding keyboard covering the Graffiti area?
andrewholler @ 1/18/2003 6:43:26 PM #
I prefer a keyboard rather than graffiti and yes palm will always keep grafiti.

Blackberry Killer?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:48:19 AM #
This looks like it will be released in Europe first, but when it gets around to the US this could be the end of Blackberry. I know that RIM has a good thing going but there is a LOT more Palm OS software out there than Blackberry software.

Of course,looking at the keyboard, I am sure that RIM will be suing Palm about next Tuesday. <G>

RE: Blackberry Killer?
Phil @ 9/20/2002 11:59:07 AM #
I don´t know who will be suing whom. The new Blackberry looks almost exactly like the new Palm: www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002Sep/bpd20020920016422.htm .

Phil

RE: Blackberry Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:16:38 PM #
Oct. 28th release for the Palm in the U.S. not Eurpoe 1st...fool.
RE: Blackberry Killer?
Beastmaster @ 9/20/2002 1:19:52 PM #
Being that I'm a Palm m505 and a Blackberry 5810 user, I can definitely say that the Blackberry Enterprise Server software is light years ahead of anything that Palm or it's software partners offer in the Enterprise space.

Blackberry's software seamlessly interacts with Exchange, and the end users where I work at cannot tell whether I sent my email from my Blackberry, or if I sent it from my desk.

That's about where Blackberry's advantages end. Calendaring is about equal, with the edge going to the Palm world. Address book, notes, and tasks are way ahead of anything that the Blackberry could put out, and the Intellisync version that comes with the Blackberry is horrid.

Unless Palm comes out with something that works as good or better than the Blackberry Enterprise Server, the Tungsten W will never be a "Blackberry Killer"....

Will it replace my Blackberry?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:36:03 PM #
I carry a Palm m505, a Blackberry 957 and a cell(without Bluetooth). I love my Palm because of all the great apps it can run that the BB cannot, I like my BB because I can send emails instantly and reieve them in real-time without having to manually connect or schedule a connection.
My question ... will this smartphone be always-on like a BB and get email in real-time, will it HotSync wirelessly or just send mail and surf? Should I wait and get a Kyocera 7135 which is designed as a better phone but has a smaller screen. More devices are not making it easier, instead of combining everything I want, they come out with combinations that always leave out something.
RE: Will it replace my Blackberry?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:48:31 PM #
If it works wirelessly the same way the Blackberry 957 does, no 'going to get your mail, like the Treo', then it will kill the Blackberry if the price is right. If you use your phone often, then I think it may be better to stick with a regular cell phone, but if once and awhile, you get a call or need to place a call, then get this Palm. I sure hope you can get a data service package from Rogers without a voice service. Depending on if you need a bigger screen to read email or ebooks, otherwise maybe the smaller screen on the 7135 will be better. If you need a palm but want a better phone, get the 7135, but hey, that's just my 3 cents (2 cents + tax).
RE: Blackberry Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:19:09 PM #
well, if you were in europe you would definitely go for this palm.
because of the gprs you can be connected 24/7. you just pay for the ammount of data, it varies from country to country and from operator to operator but it's like 50 to 1.5 euro/usd a MB ...
so for emails, wap and a little browsing it's okey ...
the speed is like dial-up ...

p.s. i personaly preffer having two different devices ... one palm and one cellphone ...

RE: Blackberry Killer?
bcombee @ 9/20/2002 3:53:43 PM #
Palm already offers the ThinAir Apps server which integrates full Exchange groupware access to the Palm VII/VIIx/i705 devices, and the i705 ships with an email redirector that can hook into whatever mail system you have on your desktop and redirect it to the target device.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: Blackberry Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:33:29 PM #
"Blackberry's software seamlessly interacts with Exchange, and the end users where I work at cannot tell whether I sent my email from my Blackberry, or if I sent it from my desk."

Interfacing with Exchange is indeed hard. If you are stuck with Exchange, my condolences--you have a white elephant and you are paying dearly for it, whether you know it or not. One of the indications of that is the fact that you think that a handheld needs to do something extra-special to talk to your mailer.

Unlike interfacing with a proprietary PC program like Exchange, interfacing with a real standards-compliant enterprise mail server is not a hard problem.

RE: Blackberry Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:10:26 AM #
Server solutions like those belonging to Synchrologic and Wireless Knowledge will soon (think three or four months) bring RIM-like push to GPRS and 1xRTT Palm OS devices. In fact, they will make RIM look downright primitive. Wireless Knowledge will have a push redirector in that timeframe too. They have not made developing these always-on push solutions a priority because of the sporadic GPRS rollout in the U.S., but now that 1xRTT is here they have a solid network to deploy on. These guys are working closely with Handspring in particular because of their recent success with the Treo 300 (great reviews and being virtually sold out across Sprint’s stores ever since they launched).

I think the recent spat of RIM suits are desperate corporate death spasms. [Disclaimer: I know, I know… People LOVE their RIMs and they will continue to use them for years to come]. They had an awesome solution and a three-year lead, but they didn’t take it anywhere. In fact, they almost *couldn’t* take it anywhere. They were stymied by the Mobitex network’s limitations and GPRS in the U.S. does not have the coverage to make a practical solution for those who travel (i.e., RIM’s prime customers). RIM should have developed towards 1xRTT initially rather than focusing on GPRS (maybe there is some practical reason for this, but I have not heard it). By the time either the GPRS networks come up to a usable level, or they get their 1xRTT solution going the field will be way too crowded. They’ve had a hard time maintaining a business on the 300k units they’ve sold to date, now imagine Good, Palm and Handspring picking off customers during a time when growth is not really taking off (stupid recession!). Alas, the clock is ticking for RIM unless they have something big up their sleeve.

RE: Blackberry Killer?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 2:48:47 PM #
Wow. Commenting on a few things, 1) the "new" RIM pager (with the external Antenna) doesn't look so much like the new Palm. Also, it runs on iDEN, not GSM/GPRS, so it is a completely different product. 2) RIM's worldband device (67xx) which is coming out this quarter is a lot "nicer" than the 5810/5820, as it has an internal speaker and mic and can be used more comfortably as a cellphone. 3) as for RIM and 1xRTT, they are supposedly coming out with a device for that (long delayed... they were supposed to release a CDMA/1xRTT device alongside the 5810/5820) this or next quarter. 4) as for other companies inteding to simulate the "push" email technology, expect them to either a) be licensing the stuff from RIM or b) getting their asses sued, as RIM's _extensive_ patent portfolio includes basically everything they've ever done, including the push-email technology. 5) speaking of RIM suing people, while they might like to, they couldn't support a lawsuit agains Palm as clearly the keyboard isn't split in half, or mirrored along the middle (to promote "ease of thumb use"), which is a clear point in RIM's patent that everyone seems so bitter about. Finally, 6) the comment "Unless RIM has something up their sleeve", I say: "Haa Ha Ha Ha! you have no idea...."
-cheers from Canada

Bluetooth Headset

Doo @ 9/20/2002 12:01:12 PM #
If it's Bluetooth head set capable my V60 cell phone and 760 are doomed.

Ed. Has the SD/MMC slot SDIO support?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:07:35 PM #
To add Bluetooth with the GPRS support would be 2 costly i think. A SD/MMC slot (if it has SDIO support?) is a nice solution although it won't be that handy as built-in Bluetooth.

Does one of your sources still stands with the info that maybe "every Palm would have integrated Bluetooth" in the future Ed?

A (GPRS-)Bluetooth-802.11 dual mode would be THE solution imho. Companies like Silicon Wave/Intersil (Blue802), Mobilian and others are working on it.

The sooner the better.

RE: Bluetooth Headset
twizza @ 9/21/2002 4:40:37 PM #
it would only add to the W if Palm would add BT to this. According to some mis-placed points over @ Buzz and other previous discussion here, Palm has the BT Stack already done for OS4.1 therefore to add it to this model would be almost obvious. I would like to know how the usually battery centric Palm will keep this model's battery life acceptable. Maybe it will add that i705 liek radio [which i hear lends itself to a very good battry life with the i705].

Sony Designers

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:04:04 PM #
OK, all the pic are out and I just have one question.
What were the Sony designers used for?

Brick

RE: Sony Designers
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:42:21 PM #
The whole Sony designer thing is absolute FUD.
RE: Sony Designers
jjsoh @ 9/20/2002 1:14:56 PM #
First Comment:
> OK, all the pic are out and I just have one question.
> What were the Sony designers used for?

I don't think this was the model that Sony designers helped work on. I believe it was the new ARM/OS5 Palm that you're referring to.

Second comment:
> The whole Sony designer thing is absolute FUD.

Uhm.. can you clarify? How could references to Sony designers who helped work on a Palm model be considered FUD?

Do you even know what FUD is?

Jim

RE: Sony Designers
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:40:29 PM #
To be fair there does seem to be signficant evidence that Sony's designers were NOT involved with this model:
1, It looks terrible
2, The keys look bad but I bet they work great (a D-pad! Alright!)
3, It looks like it was copied straight from the Treo blueprints.

In short, looks like RIM and Handspring will be suing Palm within days...

RE: Sony Designers
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:09:29 PM #
The term "Sony designers" is nonsense - it contains an internal contradiction. "Sony copiers" would be more accurate.

IT'S A PHONEY

RE: Sony Designers
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 9:27:25 PM #
Maybe the Sony designers are tanking the competition on purpose...
RE: Sony Designers
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:50:27 AM #
I believe they hired Handspring designers on this one ..... is it just me or it look exactly like a treo just a little bit more ugly ??
RE: Sony Designers
andrewholler @ 1/18/2003 6:44:20 PM #
Sony Designers, probalby just one guy and keep making up crappy ideas.

What's Up With OS 4.1??

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:08:44 PM #
What's the point in putting out 4.1 devices? I don't understand why they would try to promote a "new" Palm with the old OS.

FWIW

DLM

RE: What's Up With OS 4.1??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:11:15 PM #
Palm has already said that OS 4 is not going away any time soon and that 4 and 5 are at two totally different markets. 4 will be used on lowend handhelds and smartphones for quite some time.
Don't forget Palm hardware and Palm OS are now two totally seperate companies, so Palm the company can use whatever OS it deems necessary as it is no longer developing the OS.
RE: What's Up With OS 4.1??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:18:58 PM #
I get the feeling that Palm is holding back on OS5. One device…that does not show strength. I guess they are not comfortable with it yet! Also why would you confuse consumers by giving it the same Tungsten brand if this only runs OS4.1?
RE: What's Up With OS 4.1??
james_sorenson @ 9/20/2002 1:37:41 PM #
I'm eager for OS 5 devices. I would really love to have an Arm Palm in my hand right now. But, let's get realistic:

It is already going to be a real trial to get the first Arm Palm devices glitch-free with reasonable battery-life. Adding integrated phone and network hardware only multiplies the problem. Battery-life in today's Smart-Phones already stink, so adding an Arm processor would be a real mistake.

I'm glad to see they thought this one through and stuck with a stable and energy-efficient processor for this phone. It would kill Palm if they tried to release something buggy with a short battery life.

Now, let's see. This is basically the Treo, but with a larger, high-resolution screen and built-in memory expansion. Perfect! Sign me up!

-------
James Sorenson

RE: What's Up With OS 4.1??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:56:51 PM #
Do you really think that the people who are actually going to USE this wireless device really give a crap whether it has OS5 or OS4. I don't think so. They care that it gives them wireless access to email combined with a voice capability when needed as well as all the other features that come with a palm device (including 13000 apps).
RE: What's Up With OS 4.1??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:20:27 PM #
Hey, people have to understand that OS 5 doesn't mean it will be better than OS 4. If OS 4 suits what you need right now, than it is a good idea to stick with OS 4 for the memont until all the bugs in OS 5 clear up.
RE: What's Up With OS 4.1??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:03:48 PM #
It takes a long time to go through the FTC approval. I wouldn't expect to see a OS5 SmartPhone until at least a couple months after the regular OS5 devices come out.
What's the point of PalmOS 5?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:39:07 PM #
Application programs can't easily take advantage of the ARM chip anyway, and whether PalmOS 5 devices will really be upgradeable remains to be seen--those kinds of promises are often broken.

PalmOS 5 would not be a significant factor in my choice of handheld; OS 4.1 is cheaper and just as good for now.

RE: What's Up With OS 4.1??
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:29:50 AM #
I agree with the consensus here. We are not the typical users… OS 5 would only mean cruddy battery life and potential for bugs. As much as we all want to play Unreal Tournament on our smartphones, most of the market only wants reliable email and lots of talk/connection time. Palm played it right. Now if only they could get their design act together!! The Treo makes this look like a dog (and a little bit of a pig… It looks bigger). Why oh why didn’t Handspring put a SD slot on the Treo 180/270/300??! Regardless, I wish Palm all the best… More competition is better for all of us!
RE: What's Up With OS 4.1??
andrewholler @ 1/18/2003 6:44:54 PM #
I am so ignorant, what is OS 4.1?

Tungsten symbol is W for Wolfram

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:17:20 PM #
"W" is the the symbol on the periodic table of the elements in chemistry for Tungsten. The "W" comes from the German name for Tungsten: Wolfram.
RE: Tungsten symbol is W for Wolfram
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:25:15 PM #
great info!
RE: Tungsten symbol is W for Wolfram
Ed @ 9/20/2002 12:31:20 PM #
Keep in mind that Tungsten will be the name for a whole line of models. We got confirmation today that the non-wireless one will be called the Tungsten T. Sorry, I'm sticking with W for Wireless. That wolfram thing is interesting but I don't think is has anything to do with the name of this smartphone.

---
News Editor
heavy stone
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:40:12 PM #
Forgot to add that tungsten comes from the Swedish "tung sten" which means "heavy stone".
RE: Tungsten symbol is W for Wolfram
Scott R @ 9/20/2002 12:49:43 PM #
"Forgot to add that tungsten comes from the Swedish "tung sten" which means "heavy stone"."

Now that's funny. "Heavy stone" might also be translated as "brick." :)

Scott

Tungsten is the coil of metal in light bulbs
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:23:53 PM #
Tungsten coil burns bright in conventional light bulbs, in the absence of oxygen. However, it burns UP in the presence of oxygen.
RE: Tungsten symbol is W for Wolfram
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:22:49 PM #
However, if one ads Flourine or Xenon, or some other gasses, we can achieve thousands of color variations!
RE: Tungsten symbol is W for Wolfram
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:44:01 AM #
quote:
"However, if one ads Flourine or Xenon, or some other gasses, we can achieve thousands of color variations!"

Interesting! That's why the Tungsten line (even the smartphone) displays 320x320 in 16-bit colors. :)

This is my next cellphone, uh PDA also. :)

RE: Tungsten symbol is W for Wolfram
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:50:16 PM #
I have done some research, and what I.M. Anonymous said about the names Tungsten and Wolfram are absolutely correct. However, i would agree with ed in saying that Tungsten W stands for Tungsten Wireless.
RE: Tungsten symbol is W for Wolfram
andrewholler @ 1/18/2003 6:45:31 PM #
What is Wolfram?

Is Tungsten a company or just than name of the model
The TT is a great unit but is Tungsten coming out with a TW?

Fugly

jayhawk88 @ 9/20/2002 12:31:22 PM #
Hard to judge from the pics as theres no point of reference, but this thing looks like it'd be about as comfortable as a lead bar to carry around. The new Kyocera blows this out of the water in my mind.

RE: Fugly
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:35:52 PM #
The new Kyocera doesn't have a built-in keyboard. That's a deal killer with me.

It's funny that all of you are so hung up on appearance. Are you really that shallow?

RE: Fugly
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:39:53 PM #
I'd take the 7135's traditional phone keypad, graffiti, and stowaway keyboard anyday over the Palm/Treo take-it-or-leave-it thumboard. Add mp3 playback, 1xRTT data, and an acceptable form-factor and I'm quite willing to forget about the lack of a thumboard.


RE: Fugly
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:42:37 PM #
One word …yes, I care about appearance. I also care about functionality, size and reliability. This is a portable device that I take around everywhere! I think that 99% of us consumers are that shallow.
RE: Fugly
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:08:57 PM #
I agree, i.e., the more I see of PALM and HANDSPRING hardware products, the more I look else where for hardware. My money is going for the 7135 Phone/PDA product. Forget the Treo phone! After you loose all your data because of no memory slot for backup, you will understand why.

TSC

RE: Fugly
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:24:46 PM #
The Treo seems to backup just fine to a desktop in the tradition Palm way... SD/MMC slot would neat and all, but really far down on my list of priorities. I did get screwed having it fry on a trip, but only because I hadn't brought the hotsync cable. Over the lifetime of a device like this (2 years?) I wouldn't expect more than 2-3 total hard resets unless you're using broken software. At that rate, using the slot for backup seems like overkill.

I never used the slot on the m505 much, w/o an mp3 player or other rich media format the 16 MB in a Treo is just fine for me. I'd like bluetooth, sure, but not sticking out of the unit.

RE: Fugly
jayhawk88 @ 9/20/2002 1:30:16 PM #
Well for me, in this case, it's not so much about looks as it is about form and style. Again, never seen either smartphone in person so I'll reserve judgement, but personally it looks like this Palm model will be a lot bulkier than the Kyocera. Plus, I detest the idea of a thumb-keyboard; grafitti works just fine, thanks.

The Kyocera is a Palm device made by a phone company, whereas this is a phone made by a Palm company. This will show through in the end, I think.

RE: Fugly
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:51:25 PM #
No thanks, Palm. It would look horrible with my Armani and BMW :)

That thing is hideous. Is this a Halloween joke?

RE: Fugly
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:26:30 PM #
I'm going for the Kyocera 7135. They have Palm experience, and know how to make stuff good.
RE: Fugly
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:21:50 AM #
The Kyocera 7135 definately seems to be the best of the upcoming Palm OS smartphones.

If you need a keyboard, install Silkyboard... that's what I'm going to do.

RE: Fugly
andrewholler @ 1/18/2003 6:46:37 PM #
No kidding, I would rather carry around a lead bar than this thing, nice features arn't worth the pain to the arms from carrying it.

Looks OK, but not exciting

Boze @ 9/20/2002 12:30:25 PM #
This is just like a Blackberry, and will probably be a decent product for that niche. But it's definitely not for me. I was hoping for an OS 5 smartphone with a slightly smaller form factor, and hold-up-to-your-ear functionality. Now I'll probably have to shell out $400+ bucks twice--once for an OS 5 device, and again for a Bluetooth phone! Aaarrgh!

I'll never switch to PPC, but I sure would like to see Palm OS 5 in an mm02 XDA (aka T-Mobile PPC) form factor.

====
Boze
====

RE: Looks OK, but not exciting
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:37:44 PM #
Boze, I priced that Nokia phone with Bluetooth and it was about $200.
RE: Looks OK, but not exciting
Boze @ 9/20/2002 1:22:18 PM #
Which model?

====
Boze
====
RE: Looks OK, but not exciting
sir_tez @ 9/20/2002 4:34:46 PM #
You can get the Nokia T68m (no camera) from AT&T with bluetooth for $150. The T68i (includes camera ability and more built-in ram) is $200.

Now if you go to T-Mobile you can pay $400 for the same phone.
---

Sir Tez

Sir Tez
IT is a rough life

RE: Looks OK, but not exciting
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:33:32 PM #
Actually, Nokia doesn't make the T68 phones...Ericcson does. And they're marketed as "Sony Ericcson" phones...but certainly not Nokia!
RE: Looks OK, but not exciting
sir_tez @ 9/20/2002 6:02:54 PM #
You are absolutely correct, it's a Sony Ericcson phone.

---
Sir-Tez

Sir Tez
IT is a rough life

RE: Looks OK, but not exciting
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:21:40 PM #
Actually there are 2 T68 phones. The Ericsson T68 and the Sony Ericsson T68i. They are the same hardware, but the T68i has newer sofware with support for MMS.

Over here in the EU you can get the T68m for free with a contractm while the T68i is still costing 100 eruos or so.

There are cheaper BT / GPRS solutions of course. The T39 and R520 are both old models that you should be able to get cheaply.

this is so going to
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 12:47:04 PM #
Boost sales for Handspring's Treo ... comparing this to Treo .. Treo's like from the future .... good god ... forgive me for saying Treo is ugly .... I think we got a winner here ...

The Treo isn't selling well...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:01:23 PM #
so why does Palm think this Treo-alike will magically sell better?

What are the advantages over TREO?
speed-angel @ 9/20/2002 1:02:17 PM #
I don't quite get it. Palm release a model similar to TREO to compete with TREO? It looks bigger than TREO and offers nothing exciting over the TREO. Can anybody tell me why they would want to buy this thing over TREO (That is of course if you actually want to buy a TREO)

I hate fat phones and this has a bigger waist line than the TREO. I think TREO is the maximum I can carry and this thing, I don't care what pad it has, is not going to be hot PERIOD

Sony, please don't make this mistake and give me a good PDA to go with my T68i.

RE: The Treo isn't selling well...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:05:42 PM #
The bad economy is hurting sales of all kinds of electronics (except PS2). This will change when the economy does.

The Treo isn't selling good because of the lack of high speed wireless networks. These are starting to come online and products that connect to them will start to sell better.

The powerful brandname "Palm" will also help. Most people have never heard of HandSpring.

RE: What are the advantages over TREO?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:10:24 PM #
The advantages are screen resolution and expansion. But I think it was pretty silly not to include voice support in the unit itself like the Treo has.

I'm with you though, I'll probably stick with an excellent PDA connected to an excellent phone via Bluetooth. Let's you have all the best in both worlds.

RE: What are the advantages over TREO?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:11:59 PM #
Palm has SD slot, Treo can use like a regular phone (can hold up to face). I'm sure there are other minor differences but I think that's what it will boil down to when choosing between the two devices.


RE: What are the advantages over TREO?
djr @ 9/20/2002 1:13:38 PM #
It has SD/MMC and Hires, that's two things none of the Treo's currently offer.

For Dutch Palm-users: http://www.palmclub.nl
RE: The Treo isn't selling well...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:14:34 PM #
keyboard, 320x320 screen, GPRS

This a great data/voice connected PIM.

I just hope it's not any thicker than 0.5" or Palm should worry.

RE: The Treo isn't selling well...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:30:15 PM #
If I want a big fat palm/phone, I'll wait for the Kyocera 7135 (which will be out before the Palm phone anyway). Color screen, full phone functionality, SDIO slot, MP3 player, and, equally brick like. But with the exception that it doesn't have a thumbpad, it kicks ass on both the Treo and this new Palm thing (well, it's only CDMA, so I suppose it depends who your carrier is). You can be listening to full stereo MP3s, and when the call comes in, it simply pauses your MP3 for the call (confirmed). Add MP3 clips as ringtones... it's way better, although admittedly a fair bit FATTER.
RE: The Treo isn't selling well...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:36:21 PM #
Treo:
- GPRS
- use like regular mobile phone
- no SD slot
- no hi-res

Palm:
- GPRS
- has SD slot
- has hi-res
- requires headset

Pick your poison...


RE: The Treo isn't selling well...
Token User @ 9/20/2002 2:24:05 PM #
Treo and Tungsten W are different beasts.

The Treo is first and foremost a CELLPHONE with data capability. Clam shell design, ability to put it up to your ear and talk, and relatively small form factor to appeal to cellphone users that might want PDA functionality.

The Tungsten is designed to be a PDA with wireless data access, and oh yeah, it also does calling with an earpiece (much like the new RIM Blackberry device - except in colour, with more expandability, blah, blah, blah).

I am still leaning towards the Kyocera 7135, regardless of the lack of "full" keyboard - YVMV.

RE: The Treo isn't selling well...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:25:57 PM #
As I see it it goes like this:

The Tungsten W has the advantage of the bigger higer res screen and the SD slot.

The Treo has the better GPRS. The GPRS on the Treo is always on, even when the device is turned off - as soon as you turn it on your're connected and can hit a link in a browser and go there. With the Tungsten W you have to reconnet to the net every time you turn on, so it's not really always-on.


RE: The Treo isn't selling well...
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:41:59 AM #
As a data point it is worth noting that Sprint has been selling out of Treo 300s in most of their retail stores. Ya, the 180/270 were not quite ideal (lack of GPRS for the start), but the 300 seems to be a (relative) homerun in the category thus far. I suppose Handspring's Q2 and Q3 numbers will confirm or deny this! :-)
RE: The Treo isn't selling well...
Dan Harkless @ 9/25/2002 9:07:05 AM #
"The Treo has the better GPRS. The GPRS on the Treo is always on, even when the device is turned off - as soon as you turn it on your're connected and can hit a link in a browser and go there. With the Tungsten W you have to reconnet to the net every time you turn on, so it's not really always-on."

Very interesting info, if true. Where are you getting this from? The Treo isn't yet available with GPRS except in a few locales (the Middle East??) and the Tungsten isn't available yet period...

RE: What are the advantages over TREO?
twizza @ 9/20/2002 1:08:45 PM #
I know that this seems like it looks similar to the Treo line. But knowing Palm I am betting that it will have a better 'feel' about it. The egronmics of it will also lend it to a better audience [look at the side-by-side pic and notice that the Tungsten W is wider and the keys are larger - you best belive that will swing a good dela of people Palm's way]. Then you also have that brand loyality thing that Palm will pretty much milk-it till it dries out. Plus...it will be a data device with a SD card. That will trump a Treo especially if they keep it under $500 with no more than a $40/month plan.

Who is going to sue Palm?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:11:31 PM #
Will RIM or Hanspring sue Palm first? The uncanny similarity between Velt and treo is not even funny.
RE: Who is going to sue Palm?
Beastmaster @ 9/20/2002 1:17:04 PM #
You'll probably see RIM sue Palm once this device is officially announced. The resemblance between the Treo and the Tungsten W is uncanny.

I highly doubt that Handspring and Palm will sue each other...it's possible that Handspring and Palm collaborated on some of the design specs....and borrowed heavily from each other.

RE: Who is going to sue Palm?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:17:26 PM #
Don't call this Veld. We don't know what Veld is but we know it isn't this. This is the Tungsten W.
Here comes blackberry lawsuit!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:00:46 PM #
blackberry will also sue sonys minikeyboard! and sharp and even motorolas 2way pager.
RE: Who is going to sue Palm?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:30:59 PM #
Remember those small speka-and-spell type handheld sized devices from the 80s? they had those small keyboards...


oh... and the early Psion devices certainly had those small keyboards...

RE: Who is going to sue Palm?
andrewholler @ 1/18/2003 6:47:55 PM #
Palm probably has some pretty good lawyers to win the trial, but the devices are quite similiar.

Tungsten pics and info

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:28:51 PM #
Ed must be working on a new breaking story on this, since the earlier post about the new Tungsten pics on Geek.com was deleted. Here it is for those who can't wait:

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002Sep/bpd20020920016426.htm

RE: Tungsten pics and info
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:30:09 PM #
That simulated screen is ridiculous. It would have to have something like 640x640 resolution to look that good! Someone over at palm marketing/advertising went a little overboard on it, I think.
RE: Tungsten pics and info
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 1:53:25 PM #
We know it can't have more than 320X320 so that's plenty enough for me. Regardless of the screen, This thing looks AWESOME! The ONLY questions left are Thickness and Battery Life.
RE: Tungsten pics and info
Ed @ 9/20/2002 2:09:20 PM #
Yes, I've posted an article on it here:
www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=4192

Please continue your discussion of it there.

p.s. The earlier comment wasn't deleted; it was moved to an article where it was on topic.

----
News Editor

RE: Tungsten pics and info
bcombee @ 9/20/2002 4:34:31 PM #
I copied the geek.com picture to a graphics editor, then just cropped out the screen. The actual picture resolution was about 340x350, so having that as a representation of a 320x320 screen's abilities really wasn't too bad. Yes, its not a real device shot, but it was not unrepresentative.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: OS4.1? Are they nuts?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 2:07:04 PM #
Nuts? In this business, who isn't.

Given that the FCC approval process for wirless information device takes a long time, it's plausible, indeed very probable, that the development of this product began before the appropriate availability of OS5.


Where's the FCC filing.....

Beastmaster @ 9/20/2002 1:26:34 PM #
There doesn't seem to be any....or is it hidden ?
RE: Where's the FCC filing.....
Ed @ 9/20/2002 2:55:37 PM #
No, Palm doesn't have FCC approval for this yet. I'll keep an eye on the FCC page.

---
News Editor

RE: Where's the FCC filing.....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:32:41 PM #
Remember kids - the FCC control the whole world not just the USA! If this was a GSM 900/1800 device for Europe only... the American FCC would have to approve it before it could be sold.
RE: Where's the FCC filing.....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 11:43:10 PM #
That's BS! You can sell a device in another county without US FCC approval!! No matter what George Bush thinks - you don't control the whole freakin world!!

OMG !!! FCC TAKING OVER THE WORLD !!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 3:55:21 AM #
Bush just announced plans about war against non-FCC approved devices. 'Evil non-FCC approved devices', said Bush in September last year, naming the enemy in the war against non-FCC approved devices. 'We will rid the world of evil.'

RE: Where's the FCC filing.....
Beastmaster @ 9/21/2002 10:29:57 AM #
Actually, if a wireless manufacturer wanted to sell something in the EU, it would be easier (and cheaper) to get FCC approval for the device. The EU allows reciprocal certifications from there once FCC gives their blessing.

It's like the CE and UL ratings for electrical devices....get one and the other is easy to get.

RE: Where's the FCC filing.....
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 10:57:56 PM #
I live in Australia, and FCC has no ruling over electronic devices sold here... unless they are american designed or made. Australasian, European, etc, etc don't have to be FCC approved
RE: Will it replace my Blackberry?
Boze @ 9/20/2002 3:03:24 PM #
AMEN!

It seems like every device that comes out is missing one of my necessary features:

-Bluetooth or GPRS
-Hi-Res
-Integrated thumb-board (or soft graffiti)
-OS 5

The Tungsten T leaves out the thumb-board/SOFT graffiti, and the W leaves out OS 5!

====
Boze
====

RE: Will it replace my Blackberry?
andrewholler @ 1/18/2003 6:49:03 PM #
If you need some pics or some info go to Palm.com.

It is on the front page will all of the info you could ever want and more.

No mic and speaker = no thanks

nrosser @ 9/20/2002 3:06:43 PM #
I've used a Kyo6035 for about a year and a half, and just got a Treo 300 about 3 weeks ago. I've checked those wireless Blackberry/GPRS devices out, but man - without a way to talk on it somewhat easily? No thanks. I mean I'm about as big a user of the earbud there is - in the car, at the airport, etc., but still there are times when I just don't have an earbud. REQUIRING an earbud/headset takes this device out of the realm of possibility for most folks, EVEN someone like me who depends heavily on wireless e-mail access and push.
I couldn't believe that BlackBerry did that, and I really can't believe that Palm seems to be in the process of doing it (isn't Blackberry coming out with one that has a mic and speaker, thus realizing their initial mistake?).
I guess we'll see what happens....
RE: No mic and speaker = no thanks
kevdo @ 9/20/2002 3:45:39 PM #
I think this is what the i705 should have been originally. If you view this product as an i705 with keyboard and an added bonus of voice capability then you'd be on the money.

Let's ease up on new products that aren't designed for certain applications. It's like talking about the m500 or Palm V and saying "No color, no thanks." -- they aren't designed for color.

If you want a mic and speaker I'm sure Handspring would love you business.

-Kevin Crossman

RE: No mic and speaker = no thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 7:40:42 AM #
I think I'm not only one to think that a smartphone w/o mic and speaker is not really a "phone" but more of a PDA with some phone features.
I think this is a major blunder. How much would it cost to put a mic and speaker, anyway?!
RE: No mic and speaker = no thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 1:25:25 PM #
Exectly, this is a PDA with wireless features. That's what Bradley meant when he said it was data-centric, as opposed to voice-centric. This is the best design for a data-centric PDA. If they had added a speaker and mic to this, you'd have read 50 comments about how dumb it is to have to put the screen up next to your face to talk on it.
RE: No mic and speaker = no thanks
Dan Harkless @ 9/25/2002 9:13:18 AM #
"REQUIRING an earbud/headset takes this device out of the realm of possibility for most folks, EVEN someone like me who depends heavily on wireless e-mail access and push."

Agreed. While the phone part of whatever phone/PDA I'll end up buying is the least important part of the device for me, I do want it to be reasonably usable. The whole point of a device like this is for it to be one-piece. Don't need to mess with separate pieces (e.g. cell phone + PDA), cables, etc. Requiring a headset means you do have to mess with two separate pieces and a tangly cable between them. Yuck. I'd be okay with a required headset only if it were integrated into the unit and were on a retracting (and internally swallowed-up) cable.

"(isn't Blackberry coming out with one that has a mic and speaker, thus realizing their initial mistake?)"

Yeah, I believe that's right. The current GPRS version (the 5810) requires a headset, but the new iDEN model appears to have a mic and speaker.

RE: No mic and speaker = no thanks
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/27/2002 3:09:14 PM #
Well, as for me, this is a device that might fit my needs better than any other device out there. I prefer to have a PDA with always-on wireless e-mail (like the i705) with a color screen, memory expansion, and the ability to place a voice call if necessary. I don't really need to carry around a cell phone all the time, so the PDA functions are much more important to me. The Treo 300 is really nice, but the Sprint service is exorbitantly expensive. Hopefully the PalmNet service for this device won't be much more than it is for i705. If Palm can keep the wireless plan costs low, this device should sell very well.

So What Is The Veld?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:07:51 PM #
Maybe a new midrange line? The m105, m125 and m500 are looking pretty long in the tooth. The whole m1xx design looks pretty tired by now. Maybe something to replace it is on the way. Plus, there needs to be something in between the bare-bones Zire and the Tungsten lines (besides the existing m515 and m130).
RE: So What Is The Veld?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:06:18 PM #
Tired like your reasoning?
RE: So What Is The Veld?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:06:59 AM #
huh?

Palm, You Ugly Thing!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 3:57:40 PM #
I've been waiting for a palm os smart phone for a while now. The Kyocera looks promissing, but I was hoping that Palm or Sony will offer alternatives (the Treo is disappointing design-wise, Handspring is not known for reliability and it doesn't offer Mac compatibility in the Sprint version).

Now it looks like Palm is out of the running too. This thing is even uglier than the Treo, the flip cover doesn prevent you from accidentally pressing the keys and I bet you would get less stares if you had your shoe by your ear than this contraption. Please Sony, Kyocera, hurry up (and make it a world phone while at it:-)

RE: Palm, You Ugly Thing!
abosco @ 9/20/2002 8:26:13 PM #
Good luck finding a Palm in the exact same shape as a phone. They're on the way..... in 2010. For now, we have reasonably good smartphones like the Treos and this with relatively large screens and pretty well laid out voice capabilities. Take it or leave it, friend.

---
"Make a date from the Palm of your hand." -Magazine article
RE: Palm, You Ugly Thing!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:50:39 PM #
Hm, this sounds like Handspring's attitude.... A smart phone doesn't have to have "exactly the same shape as a cell phone," but it doesn't have to look like your father's (or yours:-) Oldsmobile either. Sony has come to the Palm market with better industrial design and their sales show that good design sells (and at a premium).

To each his own, but I like my friends less nerdy looking (and forget about getting a date with this Palm:-))

dude-
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 9:24:07 PM #
somebody hit Palm with an ugly stick!
RE: Palm, You Ugly Thing!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 9:28:56 PM #
I agree- Palm, you ugly thing, you!
RE: Palm, You Ugly Thing!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:26:12 AM #
Oh Man, is it UGLY/ It should be called THE THING!!!
Pointless flip cover
Dan Harkless @ 9/25/2002 9:19:58 AM #
"the flip cover doesn prevent you from accidentally pressing the keys"

Yeah, what the heck is the point of the flip cover if it doesn't cover the keys and doesn't have a speaker on the inside to hold up to your ear?

If it's just protecting the screen, you might as well just use a disposable screen protector for that.

It's like they're copying the Treo's form factor for marketing but not technical purposes.

RE: Palm, You Ugly Thing!
andrewholler @ 1/18/2003 6:49:55 PM #
No kidding, that thing is uglier than a ****zoo and a pit bull mixed.


Oops, we put the mic and speaker on the Tungsten T!

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 5:09:19 PM #
Does it strike anyone else as ridiculous that the Tungsten T has a built in microphone and speaker, whereas their PalmPhone product has neither? Did someone mess up in their lab or design department?

Fair enough if they want to make you use the headphone jack, but then to go and include it in the T is just stupid.

RE: Oops, we put the mic and speaker on the Tungsten T!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 8:04:09 PM #
nonono there are THOUSANDS of mic/speaker cominations!
RE: Oops, we put the mic and speaker on the Tungsten T!
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:43:35 PM #
wow- good point re/ no mic/speaker on the W model. that doesn't make sense to me.

someone hit Palm with an ugly stick AND a stupid stick! :)

RE: Oops, we put the mic and speaker on the Tungsten T!
twizza @ 10/13/2002 4:00:28 AM #
i have been wanting to say this for a while. But in the article above Palm did kinda say that this was a data device with voice capability. Therefore this does not make this a smartphone as people have been saying, But a wireless data device. THerefore why would one need a speaker if being a phone is not this device's priority.

Screen Brightness??

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 6:49:03 PM #
Is it just me, or is the Treo's screen brightness ****ing all over the Tungsten W's brightness in that photo???

Let's hope the brightness slider on the Tungsten is at 25% in this picture.........

For the record, I too look at this as an EXCELLENT upgrade to the i700. It doesn't need to be a phone, so long as the price is right.

This thing will sell for around $300, right????

Ahem......hack.....cough......just joking, put your spears away.

This is coming to Canada

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/20/2002 7:04:22 PM #
This is the model Palm Canada had told us earlier this year. It should work on the Rogers/AT&T network. Price? Probably $1000 CDN. The Toshiba Thera (sp?)pocketpc is selling at $1200CDN!!! Crazy ****e.

Tungsten W v.s. Treo v.s. Kyocera 7135

james_sorenson @ 9/20/2002 11:19:52 PM #
Okay, I'm just going to say up front that Palm's SmartPhone is actually the best of the three SmartPhones (sounds of hoards of people cranking up the digital flaming). I'm going to explain why, but I'd like to know if I missed anything.
Currently, I have a VisorPhone.

Reasons why the Treo loses:
No memory slot. I travel for extended periods of time without being near my computer. I take A LOT of notes on my PDA. The thought of not being able to backup/restore while distant from home is horrifying. Also, the screen is low-resolution and WAY to small. I have to work with spreadsheets here, you know!

Reasons why the Kyocera loses:
I'm going to skip the whole GSM v.s. CDMA thing. Personally, I think it's mostly a holy war around here. At least it has memory expansion, and the MP3 player is a nice touch. The replaceable battery is a nice feature too. However, that screen is a deal-closer again. Tiny, and low resolution. The clamshell design makes it a pretty fat PDA, too. I have mixed feelings about the split graffiti pad. Looking at how much border there is around the screen, I think this phone is a lot bigger than most people think. True, it is only an ounce heavier than the Treo, but the dimensions are much larger.

Why the SmartPhone wins:
You know it's important to me: large, high-resolution, color screen, baby! If I'm going to surf the web, let's use a screen that can display more than one icon at a time. Email is now easy to read. Games are better, spreadsheets are easier, etc. This also has the needed memory expansion for backups, large files, and other devices. I like the keypad for email and documents, but that is just a personal preference. I think, like Handspring, they should consider making a graffiti version for the stylus-experts.

Now, about the size of the thing. It is already apparent in the picture that the thickness to width ratio of the Tungsten is much less than the Kyocera. Now, the Tungsten does have a larger screen, but it has a very thin border around the screen.

I think many will be surprised when they compare the size of the Tungsten to the Kyocera. The Tungsten is probably smaller than than they think.

I must admit, though, that requiring headphones is a bit of a pain. Oh well, the price you pay to save space. I am definately looking forward to seeing the Tungsten in person!

-------
James Sorenson

RE: Tungsten W v.s. Treo v.s. Kyocera 7135
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 1:57:02 AM #
I agree with some of your comments (like the sheer volume of the Kyocera is said to be more than the Treo and will surprise people), but your opening remark maybe should have been "...Palm's SmartPhone is actually the best of the three SmartPhones FOR ME." Your backup needs seem like they are critical for you, but that is not the case for most users. Attach rates of SD cards and Memory Sticks for handhelds are very very low (think less than 5%). I think that expansion is something most power users need, and many consumers consider, but it's not a deal breaker for most. In addition, a hi-res screen is a beautiful thing, but not exactly a critical feature that is easy to justify to your average consumer or business user.

Hopefully the Tungsten is exactly what you want and you'll love it! But making a blanket declaration that it is the winner is a rather self-centric view of the world. The winner will be the one that sells the most units (or simply stays in business!).

RE: Tungsten W v.s. Treo v.s. Kyocera 7135
james_sorenson @ 9/21/2002 1:28:15 PM #
Okay, I concede my desires may not be mainstream. Not everyone needs external memory as critically as I do. Still, I think that large color screen will help sales a great deal when people start playing with it in the stores. It's primarily a data-device, so a large screen is essential while viewing web-sites, maps, and large amounts of text.

I use the ear-piece already on my Visorphone, so the lack of a speaker doesn't really affect me.

My only true concern is that Palm is getting into the game a little late. At first I thought the hold-up was because they were going to try to squeeze an Arm processor into it. A lot of people who need this kind of device has probably already purchased a Treo (I would have if the dang thing had a memory slot). It should be interesting to see how sales go.

-------
James Sorenson

RE: Tungsten W v.s. Treo v.s. Kyocera 7135
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 4:38:44 PM #
James, I normally really agree with your posts. However, I have the Treo 270 and I would have a hard time ever having a wider device to carry everywhere in my life. No memory slot is not a big deal for me once palms are 16meg. I don't like the 7135 because you have to open it everytime to "read" the calendar alarm, and this new palm is too wide and no direct phone access.
RE: Tungsten W v.s. Treo v.s. Kyocera 7135
james_sorenson @ 9/21/2002 4:56:46 PM #
Hmmmm...it looks like it all boils down to a size versus hi-res and memory expansion. Looks like many people consider size to be a lot more important. Well, I wish I could say that the world mostly wants expansion and large color screens. All I'd have to do is ask the owners of Prism VisorPhones to raise their hands.

Well, I guess I'm a bit of a niche market. All I know is that I'm looking forward to a big color screen and not having to pull my VisorPhone module out every time I need to access my memory card. Compared to the brick I have now, the Tungsten W looks pretty sleek.

I'll let the market decide. Hopefully Palm at least breaks even with this one. Thanks for all your comments!

Jim

-------
James Sorenson

RE: Tungsten W v.s. Treo v.s. Kyocera 7135
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 12:38:20 AM #
I think some of you have been misinformed about the Kyocera 7135... it isn't that big!

Remember, it's a true clamsell design, and when closed it is thicker than the Treo... but when opened it's actually thinner (much like the Sony NR70).

But more important than thickness is width... and the 7135 is one of the narrowest Palm OS devices ever released. It's over a half inch narrower than my Palm Vx, which makes it quite comfortable to hold.

RE: Tungsten W v.s. Treo v.s. Kyocera 7135
Dan Harkless @ 9/25/2002 9:26:36 AM #
"No memory slot. I travel for extended periods of time without being near my computer. I take A LOT of notes on my PDA. The thought of not being able to backup/restore while distant from home is horrifying."

If you're travelling somewhere with network coverage, you can always back up by FTP'ing files to an account somewhere. The lack of a memory slot seems like less of a problem for a communicator device vs. a "bare" PDA.

RE: Tungsten W v.s. Treo v.s. Kyocera 7135
james_sorenson @ 9/26/2002 9:01:41 PM #
Well, the FTP solution would work "well enough" if I always had a signal. However, I am in America (need I say more about coverage?). However, Cingular still does a lot better than Sprint where I work. The other problem with FTP backups is that it would be a lot of bandwidth each day, so the cost may add up. The other reason why I want to have a memory card is that it allows me to store a huge number of documents. My job requires an insane amount of reference material that I like to keep on my PDA.

Anyhow, I see that I'm the minority. Oh well. I still say the Tungsten W looks fine and has exactly what I need. Palm has nailed at least one customer, here.

-------
James Sorenson

Keyboard !

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 6:17:45 AM #
Argh ! I hate em ! Bring back graffiti only !
RE: Keyboard !
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 4:59:25 PM #
You sound like me before I tried it. I do so like green eggs and ham. Try them try them you will see.
RE: Keyboard !
swinginjonny @ 9/23/2002 3:34:31 PM #
I've tried it for quite a while. Not a green eggs and ham fan. I want to go back to graffiti.


(Self-confessed Palm Geek)

Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 5:27:18 PM #
Let me clean up some missunderstandings concerning GPRS.

Palm Inc. says european users like more the 2 device combination "palm with bluetoot" and "mobile phone". They are really funny. For high end unsers the treo 270 with color screen, which has been introduced last month in europe, was the first 1 device combination. So how to say we like something more than something we didnt have until now??

GPRS was introduced about november 2001 (and february 2002 for the biggest provider swisscom) in switzerland.

If you read the major differences between gprs and hscsd you will quickly see that you will need both!!!

Having a palm wiht build in gsm-modem makes you really unflexible concerning never technologies. It's like having a compact hifi-stereo-device with everything build in.

Both the treo and the new palm device don't have build in hscsd. If you have a device with bluetoot you are free to combine it with the newest communication technologie in form of a mobile phone like for ex. the ericsson T68 or T68i or the Nokia 6310 (European Model-Number) which both have gprs and hscsd (ericsson 3 channel and nokia 4 channel)

Comparison of the Technologies based ont prices of swisscom.

GPRS
----

*You stay always online and connected with the internet or email and only pay the downloades amount of bytes.
*Is billed by bytes. Each 10000 bytes cost USD 0.13 (If you downloaded more than 1 MB per month everything over that will cost the half).
*As this is neither a speech- nor a data-connection you are able to answer incoming calls at any time even when surfing.
*When a lot of users use the phone-network, gprs has lower priority than speech-calls or gsm-data-calls like hscsd. Gprs connections may then fall down in connection speed as channels are used for higher priority connections. GPRS connections may even be terminated completely. Therefore this is not the best solution for data-downloads!!
*Ideal for loading wap-info-pages of about 1000 bytes per page, while reading these pages or your email you don't spend money as connection time doesnt count on your bill!


HSCSD
-----

*Is billed by online-minutes. 1 minute = USD 0.14
*Within 1 minute on 9600 bps (GSM Standard) you get about 72000 bytes.
*With HSCSD 4 channel (Nokia) you get 3 times 9600 bps which means you get 216000 bytes within 1 minute. This means 216000 bytes for the same price as 10000 gprs bytes!!! This is clearly the cheaper solution for reading real web-pages on the palm (comparing to the thin wap-pages).
*Connection is quaranteed throug the provider (which is not the case with gprs).
*As you have a data-call connection you can't get incoming speech-calls as long as your data-connection is busy.
*Not recommendet for reading emails, as each minute is billed even if you don't download a byte!

As you can see, an as the swisscom provider says, you should have both options and choose for each situation if you connect via gprs or via hscsd.

Welcome in this happy and confusing new world of communication.

Greetings from Switzerland, Christian.

PS: By the way after hours of test's and hours of talks to the mobile provider and even after having bought connection setup-managers which provide modem-strings for the above mentioned mobile phone's to activate hscsd in the palm network-settings it seems, that the architekture of the actual palm models (m505, n770c) don't allow hscsd-data speeds neither with bluetooth nor with infra-red.

Searchin in dejanews.com showed, that others have the same problem. By now these threads show, no one has found a solution out of this (It works with ppc ipaq).

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/21/2002 7:03:19 PM #
To make things clear....

GPRS is a Telecom Network Technology
Bluetooth is a Wireless Technology

Bluetooth and GPRS makes a perfect fit.
http://uk.gsmbox.com/news/mobile_news/all/62707.gsmbox

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 5:19:55 AM #
Let me make this clear. I never inteded to compare apples to cars or so.

All I wanted to show - as of my own experiences - is, that none of the actual available devices (neither the treo nor the here per rumor introduced palm model) have the required technologie build in there devices.
Therefore it'ts better to have a slim bluetooth palm together with a mobile-phone whichs adds the latest technologie than a bulky all in one modell where the communication technologie can't be changend.

GPRS / WAP
----------

This is the name how GPRS was introduced in Switzerland and other european countries. Up to this moment mobile phone users could download wap-pages (Wireless Application Protocol a sort of reduced web-pags for mobile phones) at about 1000 bytes per page with regular gsm data-communication method and connection speed of about 9600 bps. You had to pay the mentioned USD 0.14 per minute or sometimes the same price as for a speech-connection (which usually was much more). WAP therefore wasn't used very much.

With the introduction of GPRS (with the above mentioned price sheme) mobile-phone-providers wanted to give the abillity to download the small wap-pages at about USD 0.013 per page (1000 bytes per page). This make's it a good deal for palm-pqa's too. (you dan for ex. use a wap-email-client to read your emails in pieces of 1000 bytes and decide if you want to read the rest in the office or at home).

But with this gprs-price-modell you clearly go cheaper for every downloaded real web-page with the regular gsm-data connection (at 9600 bps) and the cost of USD 0.14 per connection minute. No one will use gprs for downloading palm apps (like it's possible with xiino) oder web-pages (using for ex. avantgo, xiino or handsprings web-browser for the palm). Each webpage uses much more bytes than a wap page. You can do that with your treo or the here mentioned tungsteen w. But you could do that for years this way.

HSCSD
-----

Having a model with build in hscsd (high speed circuit switched data) would allow you to get 2 times (ericsson) or 3 times of data for the same minute price.

As there is no palm-os modell available with this build in technologie, you could still get a pc-card-type II adapter put in on the back of your sony t-series or palm m5xx-series palm and buy a pc-card like the nokia-pc-card with hscsd. But probably this card doesn't know the stand-by mode of the palm. Letting you not beeing continuosly beeing online with gprs. I is rather probably that this combination will drain your batteries much more than any other solution.

As gprs is no real solution for real web-browsing or other more professional applications (it is mainly for wap-browsing or using palm pqa's consuming not too much bytes with the current price modells) as it was introduced in switzerland and other european countries, I suggest you get a palm model with build in bluetooth and combine with a mobile phone with the latest technologie build in. Anyway if you don't itend to buy a new palm every 6 month's or so, how will you keep pace with the change's on the mobile-market. As newer and cheaper technologies arise, with much higher data-transmission-speeds you are on the save side having the possibillity to connect via bluetooth to the latest cellphone. I your cellphone resides in your suit- or trousers-pocket or in your suitcase. Who will say if you have build in wireless technologie or not.

GPRS in Europe is no real solution for mobile professionals which download the usual amount of data as you use when you surf on websites, not with the current price model. The higher data-transmission-speed is of no big use. As you will have to use the usual gsm transmission speed of 9600 bps and regular gsm-data-connections to get the cheaper connections for the usual data.

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 9:03:07 AM #
"GPRS in Europe is no real solution for mobile professionals which download the usual"

I disagree completely! With GPRS on my Treo, surfing the Web is relatively fast. And using some unscientific benchmarks :-), I got speeds around 20-25Kbps - good enough to fetch my email, check web pages and even fetch some small Avantgo channels.

IMHO, GPRS is far superior for mobile professionals since it's always-on unlike HSCSD. It's great to have a email program running in the background!

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 11:37:22 AM #
"I disagree completely! " (from last thread)

You forgot to mention in which country you live and even more important what you pay for your gprs data connections.

In Switzerland you pay for 1 minute 4 channel hscsd at about 200000 downloaded bytes USD 0.14. Download the same data with gprs and you will pay USD 2.60 !! (USD 1.30, if you have already downloaded 1 MB within the same month. This might get you a really expensive hobby to use gprs as a mobile professional.

By the way, like I mentioned before, swisscom, the biggest mobile-provider of switzerland is suggesting to their customers to use hscsd for larger data. Because the data connection has a higher quality. I've been sitting in the train coming home from work (zürich to basel) and a lot of people were talking to there spouses using their cellular phones. No gprs connection was possible (in fact I was connected but I could download at all). But regular data connections with or without hscsd worked fine. Imagine you download a big webpage (usual webpages easily take more than 60000 bytes) or a avango channel and you will have to start again after half of download has been completet?
The swisscom-spokesperson clearly said, neither is the gprs connections-speed quaranteed nor is guaranteed, that the connection persists. For that reason they suggest to use regular gsm-data-connections with hscsd for these purposes (I should mention here that swisscom's service is very good. This employee called me on my own cellular phone and answerd my questions during 1 hour!).

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:37:31 AM #
Interesting topic you have posted here Anonymous. But i just pointed out the difference between Bluetooth and GPRS 2 the average people. Doesn't hurt you know.

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 2:58:58 AM #
Yes thank you for getting that right. I really would like to know how the taxes for regular gsm-data-connections and gprs connections are in other countries like the uk, I think that's where you come from?

Christian Stocker, c.stocker32@bluewin.ch

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 6:05:49 AM #
"You forgot to mention in which country you live and even more important what you pay for your gprs data"

I live in Portugal. I pay 57€ per month that includes 20MB or around 2,85€/MB. It's not very cheap but it's much, much cheaper than HSCSD for the kinds of applications I use.

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 7:11:39 AM #
Thank you, that's very interesting. I hope that when more an more mobile users arise, they will get these services cheaper ;-)
RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 7:57:13 AM #
hm as i see in portugal the GPRS is pretty expensive
in austria you get for 30 euro 30MB and then you pay for every extra MB 1,5 euro so that's not so but ... i mean for palm+gprs phone to be connected via ssh, check emails i't just perfect and even for some browsing using palm (i use blazer, or even lynx/links on the remote machine)
to the topic hscsd vs. gprs from my point of view is gprs better because you can be online 24/7 and it's in that case far more cheaper compared to hscsd, and if i want samething to download while i'm in terain i do it via ssh on the remote machine ... but that are just my 4 cents (we have really high taxes in here :)
RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
Dan Harkless @ 9/25/2002 9:35:08 AM #
"GPRS... As this is neither a speech- nor a data-connection you are able to answer incoming calls at any time even when surfing."

You sure about that? It was my understanding that only so-called "class A" GSM/GPRS devices support simultaneous voice and data, and currently no such devices exist.

RE: GPRS Always on
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/25/2002 2:30:16 PM #
Answering to the following question of Dan:

...
"GPRS... As this is neither a speech- nor a data-connection you are able to answer incoming calls at any time even when surfing."

"You sure about that? It was my understanding that only so-called "class A" GSM/GPRS devices support simultaneous voice and data, and currently no such devices exist." ...

Dear Dan, I do work in the Information Technologie, but I didn't ever think about "Class A GSM/GPRS devices". What I definitely know is that my Ericsson T68m lets me answer incoming calls or short-messages (sms) at any time while connected via gprs. There is a context-help menu letting me get back to the main menu or to the stand-by mode of the phone, when I'm connected. Each time I press the hang-up button the phone ask's me if I want to discontinue the current gprs-data-session. That's where I choose "NO". Because my mobile-provider (swisscom) is doing some kind of sum of my daily bill when I disconnect. If I stay online they do that only every 6 hours.

You should ask a treo-user, which has already got the gprs update (like one in this thread before). Because these devices stay always on.

When I connect my Clie to mobile-phone (either via bluetoot or via infrared) and the palm shut's of after the so set 3 minuts the gprs-connection is terminated auomatically. Letting my palm always on would drain the battery too much.

A usual gsm-data-connection (with or without hscsd) does not allow me to get other incoming calls (I didnt try what happenes if i park the connection, but I think the download will have to be started again).

Greetings from Switzerland, Christian.

c.stocker32@bluewin.ch

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
Dan Harkless @ 9/26/2002 2:26:40 AM #
I see. http://www.symbian.com/technology/standard-gprs.html has the following info on the matter:

"Class A phones can make full use of NOM 1 networks: they can use circuit-switched voice and GPRS data services at the same time. Class B phones can register circuit-switched voice and packet-switched data services at the same time but may only use one at a time. Should the user receive a call while on the internet, they can take the call and GPRS service will be suspended, resuming once the voice call is ended. Resuming GPRS service is much faster than re-establishing a data call. Class C phones can only register for packet-switched data or for circuit-switched voice services; if the user chooses GPRS, then they will be totally unavailable for GSM calls and reciprocally."

So you are indeed correct that you can receive incoming calls while using GPRS as long as your phone is class B or better. With class A you could actually have your data continue in the background while you were on your call.

I read on another page (can't give you the URL as that IE window has frozen) that SMS can be received during GPRS usage even on class C phones.

Anyway, I believe that _all_ CDMA 2000 1xRTT devices are the equivalent of class C GSM/GPRS devices, so that's a nice advantage of GPRS to know about. I believe this is supposed to be fixed in followups to 1xRTT.

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/26/2002 7:27:07 AM #
"You sure about that? It was my understanding that only so-called "class A" GSM/GPRS devices support simultaneous voice and data, and currently no such devices exist."

Treo supports simultaneous voice and data.

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
Dan Harkless @ 9/28/2002 6:48:00 AM #
"Treo supports simultaneous voice and data."

No, I don't believe that's true. Do you have a reference for that? I understand the Treo's GPRS implementation to be a class B device -- that is, you can receive notification of an incoming voice call while using GPRS data, but to answer that call you must suspend your data transmission. You can't do both at the same time.

RE: Why better choose Bluetooth than build in GSM/GPRS
I.M. Anonymous @ 10/1/2002 6:56:29 AM #
Hey Dan

You are spot on. Just tried it on my GPRS enabled Treo. Whilst talking to my wife, I could not surf "You must disable the call first... bla bla"

Not that my wife is boring. Just testing out the GPRS... honest :)

Would you buy this thing as mobile replacement?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/22/2002 7:49:29 PM #
No, definately not - I am bit disappointed on this. Image for those people waiting for replacement for their Palm V and waiting for phone + pda. I have already a m505. I wait for Palm OS 5.0 or 6.0 phone in 6 months or a year from now.

S#%!, My Phone's ringing!...

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 9:00:16 AM #
...Gotta find my handsfree kit!!! D@#%!!!! Can't get it plugged in!!! ARGH!
RE: S#%!, My Phone's ringing!...
ynot @ 10/11/2002 2:20:06 AM #
LOL Right on the money. Kyocera s7135 for me. It's not that big; color is better than Treo. Works with Verizon/CDMA - and, it already has a folding keyboard that will work with it - Targus, (I use it all the time with my Vx) - AND, no one mentions that it hasa Voice Recorder built in. This is fantastic while driving. I will have reduced my electronic carrying from at least 3 devices to one - four if you include the mp3 player, which I rarely use. A little thicker? So what. I can handle it, and it really doesn't seem much thicker than my Motorola Timeport - in fact, I think it's the same thickness and weight! It's just wider and a little taller. It'll fit in your pants pocket. Nuf sed. Can't wait. 11/1 I think is the date.

Bluetooth Headphones?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/23/2002 10:57:40 AM #
In the early days of the Bluetooth hype I heard that headphones would be yet another device made wireless through the magic of bluetooth.

Perhaps it's possible to buy a bluetooth headset for this new smartphone? Then, once you dial, the device could sit in your pocket while you chat on a handsfree headset.

Perhaps the Bluetooth/Palm OS 5 experts could shed some light on this theory...?

RE: Bluetooth Headphones?
I.M. Anonymous @ 9/24/2002 10:05:42 PM #
That would be true enough if the W had Bluetooth on-board - but from the reports it doesn't appear to. The other problem is that the current BT stack on the Palm doesn't support the voice component of BT. It will let you dial a number, but that's really it. Haven't heard whether that's been extended under OS5, but as the W runs 4.1 it doesn't really matter I guess...

FWIW, I'm currently using a m515, Ericsson T39 and a Bluetooth headset - it all works quite nicely together. So I'll probably go for the model T instead (does it come in black?!)

I got my BT headset from here (Australian site): http://www.pocketscience.com.au/bluetooth.asp


Dimension and weight?

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/27/2002 6:37:19 AM #
Is there anybody who knows the dimension and weight of the smartphone?

Dual input for Tungsten w?

Muz @ 10/25/2002 11:55:26 AM #
I have a strange suspicion that the Tungsten w has a grafitti area hidden under the (sliding?) keyboard.

Tungsten = HeavyStone

juridicum @ 11/26/2002 8:47:40 AM #
I wounder how they came up with the name Tungsten. Since it means "heavy stone" in swedish I can say that that name wont do well in sweden... who would want a phone calld heavystone...



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