Comments on: Sony Announces OS 5 NX Series

aflores
Fanatic of PDA whit Palm OS

It's not cool, its a life saver.

The botton two are a Clie Bluetooth MemStick to the left and a Vaio Bleutooth USB dongle to the right.

Right?

BTW, that Sony WiFi card looks *exactly* like the one made by Symbol. If that's the case, it's great news -- it's the best-rated lowest-power-consuming solution out there! :)

- Dan

The black casing sure looks cool though.

---
George W. Bush at his best!
http://raj.phangureh.com/foolme.html

"There are 2 kind of people my friend....those with wires and those without"

Just an additional note here: the PEGA-BT700 clipon for the S- and N-series was a very early bleeding-edge product and was compliant with the Bluetooth 1.0 spec. Unfortunately, Bt 1.0 has quite limited support for some of the cool protocols, so if you're looking to get into Bluetooth keep this in mind!

The vast majority of Bt-devices that are currently on the market (and due for release) are all Bt 1.1 spec. My experience has been *extremely* positive with all the 1.1 gear I've tried (with the exception of the iPAQ 3870 - but that's a different story!)

- Dan

http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/PEG/PEG-NX70V/acc.html

http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=FA-CFMS

There seem to be al lot of "if only.... would work". Maybe there is a solution?

Christian Stocker

Now, as I'm excited about the new Sony's, I can't help but feel that the battery-life might be a problem. The NR70/V had quite a bad battery life (compared to other Palm-OS devices), and so does the T665c. Ok, I know that a Palm M515 don't have hires+, mp3 and an integrated keyboard, but what does all does extras do if your handheld dies when you really need it? And no, not everyone works or stay at places where a power-outlet is easily available for charging.

But either way, these devices are good for the Palm OS, and it's nice to be able to chose from a wide variety of handhelds, using your favorite OS!


I'm just not a signature kind of guy..

If you're interested in learning about OS5/ARM a good place to start is:
<http://www.palmos.com/dev/programs/palmosready/>

It will be interesting to see how much work is required by the developers of the "hi-res" and "hi-res+" apps that used Sony's proprietary display APIs, to meet the new OS5 display APIs.

The list for these apps is at:
<http://www.clieuk.co.uk/cphires.shtml>

- Dan

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

If Palm bring out an OS update for their OS5 devices, and Sony don't, then it will be obvious that it is purely due to marketing. Hopefully this would pressure on them to do so. Otherwise, those thinking of buying the new model might just buy a different PDA such as Palm instead.

Zuber

Doh! I meant the PEG-SJ30. Heh. :)

Jim

Not that it matters, but it was the other way around. The unofficial methods appeared first.

Actually, I care, but only in respect to updates, not full upgrades. I want to be able to flash an updated OS with bug fixes and additional features, rather than purchasing a new model.

Jim

"Now thats just PRIME!"

it's the less expensive model, chiming in at $100 less. NX60 I believe

And don't forget temperature. Li-ion battery life is
significantly shorter if it's below normal room
temperature (e.g. outdoors on a cold night).

If these numbers are actual, then that is shorter than my average commute to work! LOL! Not that I'd be using WiFi in such a scenario, but in perspective, that's incredibly short. ;)

Jim

It isn't impossible, but you would have to do some serious reverse engineering or create one major hack to get it to work.

If Sony wanted their slot to work for memory and other CF cards, they could do it themselves. They don't want it to work that way, and that is what we get. I'm sure somebody else will release a Palm OS device with a CF slot.

Actually, it's ONE external memory slot, and one slot that we only know for sure will support Sony's Wi-Fi card, and possibly other CF modems, but have no indication that it can use regular CF memory cards...

Sharp had all that for a Zaurus model back in the spring. I'm not sure if it was released, since it doesn't sell in the US.

The normal battery life rating for the NX70V is EXACTLY the same as the the NR70V:

(From the NR70V operating guide)

"Battery Life
10 Days*
*Based on average of 30 min. use of PIMs per day with backlight off. The battery lifespan varies depending on the temperature and the conditions of use."

While it is not great, it is quite adequate.

As a matter of fact, you may want to check out the link below from Sony support called "How to test the battery life of a Sony Clie handheld".

http://sawebp1.sel.sony.com/scripts/web_access.cgi?FUNC=SOLUTION_DETAIL&SOL_ID=1670005259

They basically test running a movie continuously on a fully charged PDA, until the battery dies. Their claim for ALL color Clies is only 3-4 hours of continuous operation.

Wish they had given more specifics, like sidelights on or off, volume setting, etc, as those can have a huge effect on life.

Casio has a claim that one of their organzers has a battery life of 180 hours. But when you read the fine print, they tell you that this is only when the device is showing the contact list and you don't touch any buttons. Yeah, right! This actually means it can keep the LCD on for 180 hours and nothing else.

I may have to agree that based on the supplied numbers alone, the battery life is somewhat adequate. However, in my opinion, real world scenarios are a much better measure of battery life than ones based on 30 minute use of only PIMs per day with backlight off, as they stated.

With all the features that this model has, it doesn't seem to be geared towards the casual user, but a high-end one. Which is confusing because the high-end user would probably utilize the additional features more, especially for a greater length than 30 minutes/day. What kind of high-end user would purchase this model just for PIM and with backlight off? And I seriously doubt that a casual user would purchase this model just for regular PIM alone, unless they love Sony and/or have money to burn.

I would like to see numbers based on occasional mp3 playback, maybe a picture taken or two, with possibly a recorded voice message here and there, as well as PIM functions within a 30 minute use period per day with backlight on. I doubt that the end result will amount to 10 days.

Also, I always include the 'backlight on' option because I'm sure 80-90% of the time (if not 100% for models with rechargeable batteries), we all use the backlight, no?

Jim

It also will likely work with the computer off so that you don't need to boot to listen and charge....

-

"If it weren't for electricity we'd all be watching television by candlelight." - George Gobol.

"I asked about the wireless slot (which takes CF cards). It's definitely Sony card-ready, but you can use other cards. It's NOT proprietary, okay? The Sony people told me that the Sony card will definitely work out of the box (read: others will work, but you'll probably have to diddle around a bit to make them.)"

Surely someone will develop a program to access other CF cards.

I don't like the form factor of NR and NX series - Both are too chunky for my preference. But potential buyers don't give a d_mn about other things: they like Sony, 200MHz XScale processor, 30MP digital camera, and its slick design. So please stop b*tching: just step back and watch what happens. Believe me, Sony will win."

Well i don't see the relevance of the first paragraph to anything... Of course the Ipaq won, because the jornada is no longer made. Its hard to compete when you don't exist anymore.

Palm still outsells Sony by multiple amounts, that is not biased, that is a cold hard fact. Potential buyers generally don't care about specs. They want an organiser. Otherwise they are filfthy rich and buy a nice shiny top - of - the - line NR70v.

Most people start with a basic model, and work up to a high end model, because they get hooked on the Palm. God knows I did, my m130 pales in sicgnificance up against the NX70, regardless of how much my friends worship my m130.

You seem to assume that YOU are the market. Let me tell you a secret, you ARE NOT. You are a minority, of crazy people who throw $1000s at expensive pieces of electronics.

People do not want 200MHz XScale processor, 30MP digital camera, they can't afford this frivolence.

"People" do not know what a Xscale processor is, they only know what a "PalmPilot" is. And when they see one for $150 in Target, they will buy one.
PLease, take your prophecies of Palm DOom to pocketpcthoughts.com, we have banned anonymous posting here, and it was not an invitation for the trolls to register.

Sorry for that rant everyone ;)

PS: Just realized all my $ amounts are in Aussie dollars. The USD is about 60% of these prices, (unfortunately)

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

Heh, that would be impressive, if Handspring hadn't all but abandoned the PDA market.

I will agree that there is a market for the Clie high-end line. But the point that was being tried to make was that MOST folks don't want all those high-end features.

A point that I agree with.

No it doesn't. But I've heard Sony is going to sell Clie in Korea from the next month(or December?). And most Korean users use Hantip or Diopen to display/input Korean. I'm using N760 and really satisfied with Hantip's font maker.

>If not, what is the most popular PDA over in
>Korea? I know it's not really a viable market
>there (as you stated), but surely there are one
>or two companies competing for PDA marketshare.

Here are some data for the PDA market in Korea.

Pocket PC - 40%
Cellvic(Korean OS) - 40%
Palm - 10~15%
Other PDAs - 5~10%

Now Pocket PCs are getting momemtum - HP Compaq, Fujitsu-Siemens, and many other Korean PDA makers(they make ones with CDMA 2000 1x module) are selling different Pocket PCs here. Although I really hate Pocket PC(short battery life and awkward interface), it seems like some people just can't live without Windows interface and "cool" multimedia functionality these days...

>And if they have a English/Korean electronic
>dictionary, can you tell me which is the best?

If you want one for PDA you can use KDIC and custom dictionarys which can be downloaded from www.kpug.net(Korean site). For PC I recommend MS Bookshelf - it provides Eng-Eng, Eng-Kor, Kor-Eng, Kor-Kor dictionaries.

Hope this helps.


Yeh, Seung Chul
-----------------------
Technical Writer / Serious Skier / Thigh-burning Inline Skater
http://noface.uu.st

I recently carried out some extensive research and interviews regarding 3G devices and PDAs. The outcome of this research seemed to suggest that the most popular way for these mobile devices to go is modular. For instance, your average user will have a very small simple 3G module (looking similar to the very small 2G phones today). While this could be used as a phone, more likely it will just be left in a pocket or case, and calls be made with a small Bluetooth headset (see SE HBH-60 at www.infosync.no). PDA functionality is gained via a (Bluetooth) tablet with a largish hires screen. Most applications will be accesed via ASP (that's application servers, not M$ Active Server Pages). This means that the individual devices can be very small and low power (thus good battery life). The nice thing about this set up is that users can pick and choose their components depending upon circumstance -- take the tablet et al with you when working, but leave all the chunkier (and more expensive) kit behind when you go out to the bar with friends. Obviolsuy, with Bluetooth this kind of system can grow with BT keyboards, ad hoc networks (eg. in Starbucks, meetings, record stores, planes...). and upgrade paths are simpler (replace the individual bits as and when).

Personally I can't wait. In the mean time give me a T665C type OS5 device with BT. And here's hoping the 3G network operators don't charge silly prices for their services.

Fly-By-Night

Fred

I'm surprised that Palm has as big a presence over there. Okay guys, don't laugh. I know 10-15% is not that big, but my expectations were a lot lower than that.

I've tried Hantip, but on a 160x160 resolution, I found it extremely ugly. :( However, I'm sure it looks better on your N760. This is why I'm hoping that with high resolution as a standard in OS5, someone can create a native Palm OS in Korean. ^_^ That would be awesome. I'll do more research on Diopen. I haven't heard of that.

Actually, one of my friends recently came back from a trip to Korea and he got his wife a PPC PDA and tells me that it is really nice. He also got it for a good price (~US$150), but I'm not sure of the specifications on it. Maybe he'll show it to me later. He tells me that there's a good Kor/Eng dictionary for it. I'm definitely interested since I'm trying to advance my Korean.

Anyway, I know what you mean about Koreans loving all the extra cool features and looks, but I still hope that Palm gains more marketshare over there. Possibly even to promote more development on Palm because I would love to eventually see a localized Korean version of Palm OS, whether it comes from Palm or Sony or whomever.. possibly Samsung? Hehe.. ;)

Thanks again for the useful link to KPUG. I'll have to hurry up and learn more Korean to understand what's going on in there. If you have any more links to Korean/Palm related sites, I would be more appreciative. You can email me personally (jamesjsoh@yahoo.com) as I'm afraid the off-topic nature of our discussion may bore a majority of the readership here. :)

Ahn-young-hee gah-say-yo.

Regards,

Jim

Why oh why didn't Sony do this for the NX-series? I much prefer the Palm OS. Take a look at it here: http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2401.html

I thought someone might say that. I should have added that I live in Japan. 64MB & 128MB SD cards have been cheaper than MS cards of the same size for a while already.
http://www.kakaku.com/sku/price/flashmemory.htm
(Those prices are real. I have been to most of those shops listed.)

> CF was traditionally the cheapest, but now it
> looks like for the small capacity SmartMedia,
> retailers are clearing them out in favor of
> Olympus' new XD format...

I was disappointed to see this new format. It won't last. They called it the xD Picture Card, so it probably won't be in anything but cameras at first. And even then, probably just those from Olympus and FujiFilm. I haven't seen any mention of anything other than memory cards. They have to play a bit of catch up on sizes, but have promised 256MB by this December. People will want to take photos from their digital cameras and put them in their PDAs and cellphones and SD will be the slot for that. I hope this xD stuff goes the way of SM.

> I still seldom see SD cards larger than 64 cards
> in retail shops and those are always hideously
> overpriced. Best Buy, for example, only recently
> began stocking 128 cards, priced at $99.99,
> whereas a colleague of mine recently bought a
> 128 mb MemoryStick for a little over $50.

Maybe you can try mailorder. $99 is kind of high.
http://www.pricescan.com/scripts/Q01011808.asp

> I just bought a new Minolta F100 digicam that
> uses SD ...

I bought a Minolta DimageX and a 128MB card the same day last spring. This wasn't my first SD device. I also have a Handera 330. I leave a 64MB card in that for backing up. I bought a 256MB SD card in June along with an SD MP3 player.

I have to say the prices of the 256MB cards haven't really come down too much since I bought mine. You might want to wait a bit.

> ... and I am feeling the pinch of my 2 64 meg SD
> cards. I'd love to just pop a 256 mb card in it
> and be done with it, but I am going to resist
> and wait until the prices stabilize.

You might not have to wait too long. Lots of places selling the Lexar 256MB SD card.
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=605642

> I really don't see the point of MMC cards
> sticking around, since all new devices are
> either SD/MMC or SD exclusively.

I think MMC cards max out at 128MB now and are slower than SD cards. (My Handera back ups are much faster with the SD card. I gave the 32MB MMC card I had to a friend to use in his Panasonic cellphone that has a slot.) But, they may consume less battery power which would make a difference in an MP3 player.

> We need some consolidation in this field and sinc
> it looks like MS and CF aren't going anywhere, MMC
> and SM should be put out to pasture. The arrival
> of XD is a total wate and needlessly complicates
> the market and bewilders consumers further.

I agree. You can see the true colors of companies like Sony, Olympus and FujiFilm as they try to lock in their customers.

CF is going to do fine. Look at all the PDAs with two slots and the megapixel cameras that use it. 1GB MicroDrives and flash cards are readily available. It will also hit 2GB before the others. And look at all the non-memory cards there are. You name it, it's out there.

I already have consolidated, so I don't have a problem.

Yes, Palm is clearly evil, sticking to industry standards like SD, and accommodating for the dying MMC. Will this profit mongering corporate villain ever be stopped?

Anyone who thinks SD is proprietary needs their head checked. I believe SD is governed by a committee of members. I'm pretty sure any corporation can join. I am not sure on the exact details, but it is an open STANDARD.
SD is not an attempt to lock in customers by palm. Palm does not make SD cards, it only sells rebadged ones. Palm is adhering to an industry standard, in the interests of the consumer.
I believe CF is similair.

Sony, on the other hand, is locking in its customers by using its own memory stick. This is proprietary. Only sony devices sport MS slots, and only sony manufactures Memory Sticks.
Sony could have just as easily, in fact more easily, used SD, but it chose to develop its own format(at great cost), in the interest of profit line.

This is fine, if you plan on only using sony devices ever again. Otherwise, you'll have to cough up some serious $$$ for your brand new shiny, SD mp3 player.

I don't think "Sony is the deevillll!"
But claiming MS is not proprietary shows ignorance, and will only get you branded as a Sony troll.

I, personally don't mind about the whole MS thing. My next device will be a Clie. The only flash memory device in the house is an aged CF camera, which is my mothers. The cards in this are small capacity, so its not worth getting a CF device. I never bought SD cards for my (refunded, awaiting $640) m130, and i am too poor to afford high capacity cards anyway, so the 128mb thing is fine. I don't plan on buying any cameras or mp3 players or the such like, as i'll be lucky to afford an OS5 device(a paper run doesn't pay well, trust me).
However it would be nice to know that if i did purchase a device in the future, i won't be limited to a Sony, or have to buy new cards....

Just my $0.04 AUS$ (Damn currency exchange rate, I'll teach those damn Americans to squash the mighty Aussie Dollar)

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

And when did SD card become Industry Standard ?? Show me some IEEE Documents then I'll agree with you. SD Memory Card is standard between those company who uses it, so is Memory Stick. if they didn't file it to IEEE then I am sorry it is far from industry standard. The so called "industry standard" is not controlled by any industry standard body but big companies.

And I am not a Sony Troll, in fact I don't even have a Clie or a Vaio, my next PDA will probably will not be a Clie either. (maybe a Zaurus)

btw: do you honestly believe anything you said in your message ??

Hey myname:

> Memorystick nowadays are more like 40 dollars
> for 128MB, that is real price from Tiger Direct.

Send me a link!

And should I be calling it 'beta stick' or betastick'? 1 or 2 words?

Yes, i researched that later, and found that an Acer device also uses the MS slot. But i couldn't find any other card manufacturers, sorry for that mistake.

But, the use of its own memory standard by sony is in the interest of profit, no doubt about it. It is about limiting the customer to its own cards, and in the future, making it an incentive to use sony devices in other areas. It would be cheaper for sony to use SD. They wouldn't have to spend R and D on MS, just buy SD slots, and slap them onto their devices.

Oxford Dictionary;
Proprieter n. Holder of property, owner of business.

Proprietrary a. Of a proprietor, held in private ownership.

So, yes, both SD and MS are "proprietary" in some limited sense.
But that is not important.
The motive for including SD in a device is;
To add a feature that is helpful to the consumer, so that more people buy it, in turn making more money for XXXX inc.

Sony's motive is to include a MS slot, which will mean that people will buy Sony cards, in turn making SOny more profits, at the expense of the consumer.

Both companies want to make money, it is the way they go about it.
FOr many this is not a problem, like myself, but it is no use defending Sony, when they are clearly not acting in the interests of the consumer.

If we could all use a little more maturity in brand loyalty it would be much apreciated. I get tired of the standard scenario;

Palm User; "Look at the crappy battery life on the NX70! I hope you enjoy your five minutes of wifi!"

Sony User; "Well i'm sure you'll have fun with being able to look at your todo list in black and white, low res, for two weeks!"

Handera User; "My Handera 330 had wifi and VG long before the Sony!"

SOny and Palm in unison; "WHy don't you got talk to the other two HE users, and wait for the next model, expected in several years!"

If everyone could just realize that the licensees all have different aims, and different purposes, that isn't for everyone, and just be thankful that they aren't running PPC.
Lets all troll every brand equally :)

I am not a Palm troll, i am disgusted at Palm for its false advertisiing, likewise, i am dissapointed with Sony's profit-oriented use of the MS.

=========================================

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

Tony