Comments on: Palm OS 5 Interview With David Fedor of PalmSource

jeff

The Shadow knows!

If you want more good info on Palm OS 5, I'd recommend reading Fedor's talk slides from PalmSource 2002. All of the talks are posted at http://www.palmsource.com/about/events/expo/2002/postdev.html

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

You write:This is an amazing interview that answered most(if not all) of my questions and cleared up a lot of things about OS 5. I can't wait to get an OS 5 device!!

How do expect to get an OS5 device! If you have problems to get one, probably you should put five or six hunded Dollars in you pocket, walk in an Comp USA or BestBuy etc. shop, give to the cashier your dollars, and than - you will walk out with an OS5 device!!!!!! It´s just such easy!!!! :-)

You will have an great X.mas day, with playing OS5

Georg

Wow, do you feel special? Do you want a cookie?

Money can't buy you happiness but it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery.

Do you work in the Tech industry? I do, and I can explain Palms reasoning. Trust me, every company "spins" to this degree, thanks to the dumbing down of America and internet rumor mongers.

Quite often corporate policy dictates that unless you're talking to technical people under an NDA, you don't give answers that the majority of people wouldn't understand, and unfortunately that pretty much limits you to "yes" or "no" when discussing technical details. If you don't answer this way, someone else will "interpret" your answer this way. Even tech-literate magazines publish articles with statements in them that offend the people that the article is about, because in boiling down statements made to feed to the masses, important points get dropped, misconstrued, or otherwise twisted, even if the original interviewer got the idea. The reason for this is if you try to answer a technical question in precise terms, quite often the listeners eyes will glass over long before the explanation is done. I'm not allowed to talk to anyone but the technical departments of our customers at work, for precicely this reason. I don't give yes/no answers, I explain why the question can't be answered with yes or no.

From an engineering standpoint, the answer to this question could in fact be yes or no if those are the only options allowed, as from an engineer's point of view emulation commonly implies hardware emulation, possibly even circuit emulation. Old school EE people would say that if you're not emulating to the circuit/microcode level, you're only simulating. There isn't any emulated hardware on the PalmOS5 units. Second, PalmOS5 itself is pure native ARM code. This is why most hacks don't work. Even in application space, they're not emulating the dragonball, just that portion of the instruction set that applies to user space. Do people make issue out of the fact that JavaVM implementations are emulating some fictional CPU? If you asked Sun if they're doing emulation, they'd say no. The only difference is that the Sun JVM targets a virtual machine that at least originally didn't exist, whereas PACE targets a instruction set that's been around for over 20 years in hardware. The line between emulation and simulation isn't fine, it's grey and wide.

Now, what it mean to a typical non-tech person if Palm said "Yes, we're emulating." It would mean "Oh, no, it's going to be slow and buggy!" I can assure you that it isn't. I've got a few games that I registered that are quite playable on older 66Mhz dragonball PDAs, but on my NX60, are so fast that they were unplayable. Aside from hacks and programs that violated PalmOS programming standards, my NX60 is compatible with more programs than my PalmOS 3.5 HandEra 330. Admit it, there were technically savy people that prior to the release of real PalmOS5 PDAs were claiming that the PalmOS5 PDAs were going to be slower, sometimes even much slower, than existing PalmOS PDAs. That has turned out not to be the case.

They could have said "There is some emulation happening." This would get filtered down to the masses as "Yes."

Instead, they said "no" which while not 100% technically accurate, is at least as accurate as saying "yes" without giving detractors who aren't going to bother checking the facts more ammunition. This is not an accusation that you fall into that catagory either.

I remember a time when companies sent technical people to COMDEX and I could get actual hard information out of people. I haven't bothered going to COMDEX in years because of this effect, since most companies don't send anything but sales people any more (with the possible exception of someone to work behind the scenes in case a demo fails).

If we can try to distill and collect any follow-up questions here, maybe we can convince David to do a return visit in the new year? :)

One of the finest things about this site IMNSHO is that the community here works to explore and clarify issues. This is a good opportunity!

[Raising a mug of eggnog]

Cheers,

Dan

Why do you think people don't bother checking the facts anymore? If most companies are lying or trying to mislead you about their products, then there is no point. But that still doesn't make it OK on the part of companies.

"Second, PalmOS5 itself is pure native ARM code."

So? When I run VirtualPC on the Mac, Mac OS is running in native code. When Macs were running 68k applications on PPC, that's what they were doing. When I run Bochs or POSE on Linux, Linux is running in native code. PACE is no different.

"Old school EE people would say that if you're not emulating to the circuit/microcode level, you're only simulating. There isn't any emulated hardware on the PalmOS5 units"

We aren't talking old-school EE people, we are talking about modern software consumers and developers. There is a pretty wide understanding of what "emulation" means: it's what all those other systems that I mentioned above do as well.

"They could have said "There is some emulation happening." This would get filtered down to the masses as "Yes.""

And the masses would basically be right. The Tungsten is a nice handheld, but you are buying an ARM chip to run applications in emulation. I think at $500, that's too much, in particular since there are plenty of other ARM-based handhelds that run their applications natively.

Note that I think Palm's basic mistake was not that they are providing emulation, and pretty good one it appears, but that they are failing to provide the ability to deliver fully native applications. And that makes Palm OS 5 a bad and overpriced choice in my book. My recommendation is to go with Sony's Palm OS 4 devices for now: they are a much better value.

I guess I can stand by my non-technical summary statement "OK, so it's more of an on-the-fly Translator, rather than an Emulator." :)

Hoping you and your family have a wonderful Christmas!

Cheers,

Dan

PS I was just checking the latest AcidImage (v2.2t) which uses Arm-lets for native jpeg handling and it's wickedly fast: http://www.red-mercury.com/aibe.html

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. I/O and drivers in Virtual PC and VMware, of course, happen through the host operating system in native code because only native code can talk to the actual physical device.

There are three ways in which guest operating systems can talk to those devices. First, through I/O ports using the native driver of the guest OS. That's slow. Second, through special shim drivers in the guest OS that just hand off the request to the host OS. That's fast and equivalent to what PACE is doing. Third, through DMA using the native drivers of the guest OS. That's just as fast as the special drivers.

"which contains pure 68K instruction emulator, which uses a 68K device ROM and emulates a Palm OS device at the hardware register level. Hopefully after reading the above, you may now see how this is *very* different from what PACE is."

No, I don't. What you call "operating system" is just a bunch of application libraries that happen to be bundled with the device: some GUI stuff, some in-memory databases. Sure, PACE runs some of that code natively.

"That said, I think people should decide for themselves if a particular device is right for them by actually trying it (if possible)"

Yes, they should decide for themselves--after they have heard all the arguments. Most people, however, just get to hear the marketing fluff from Palm. You seem to want alternative views to shut up.

I maintain: $500 for the Tungsten T is too much, compared to both Sony's OS4 devices and the variety of PPC devices out there. Furthermore, Palm's claims that the Tungsten T will be upgradable seem dubious given its limited amount of memory, and whether Palm OS 6 will be decent or a dud remains to be seen, as well as whether it comes out before Palm goes under.

My recommendation is: save your money and buy a Palm OS 4 device. The Sony SJ30 is a great little handheld that makes as good an organizer as the Tungsten. Put off buying an ARM-based Palm until Palm delivers a more coherent platform than OS 5.

"which contains pure 68K instruction emulator, which uses a 68K device ROM and emulates a Palm OS device at the hardware register level. Hopefully after reading the above, you may now see how this is *very* different from what PACE is."

No, I don't see that. Sure, PACE runs a bunch of libraries natively, but so do many other emulators. Other emulators do that by translating it into native code on the fly. That is insufficient reason to call "PACE not an emulator". "Emulator" doesn't mean "interpreter".

(I also disagree that those libraries should be considered part of the operating system: they are application support libraries, stuff that runs in user mode and needs no special privileges.)

In my personal experience, I've used and love Palm OS based PDA's because of the ease of use and peace of mind, not caring about API's and emulation or what have you, as long as I can work and play without fuss. Yet, despite being satisfied, I still yearn for something more once in while depending on my needs/wants. In this case, it was in the way of higher resolution, integrated Bluetooth to free up memory expansion slot, and voice recorder while maintaining the best, IMHO, form factor out there. Sure these are all luxuries, but if it makes my life a little easier and fun, I'm all for it.

But when I consider upgrading, I rarely find myself asking if it still uses primitive API's found in vOS4 or whether it will be emulating instead of other programming methods to ensure backwards compatibility with programs I've already paid for without breaking them. I just want to know if it works and runs faster. And if the answer is a resounding 'yes,' with all the extra features I want (and then some), that's all I need to know. Does it really matter if the task is completed using a "stop-gap" measure?

The SJ30 certainly comes close with a great price of MSRP $250 and good form factor. Unfortunately it does not have voice memo, or integrated BT, let alone the option for audio playback via headphone jack (though as an added accessory, it might). The DragonBall processor is fine, as I've had no complaints so far, but I've noticed that Docs2Go (which I uses daily for work) run much faster on my Tungsten, than my m505 ever did, so productivity in my eyes is higher. And with BT MemStick almost non-existent in the U.S., you're sure to spend at least a good ~$200 just to get it, at which already puts the SJ30 along the same price tag of the Tungsten.

It's great to be informed, as I've learned a lot today, but that still doesn't change my mind about the Tungsten|T, or any future PDA (Palm or other), based on whether the OS which runs the PDA is native or not, which are totally transparent to me anyway, as long as it fits my needs TODAY. Otherwise, I'll be waiting forever.

I'll admit that I've spent a little more money on the Tungsten|T than I would've liked, but that's the price to pay for "me first" in technology, isn't it? Value is in the eye of the beholder, not the API's in the OS (er.. that is, unless you're a developer/engineer, but I suppose that's another story ^_^).

Maybe this whole thread should've been taken place in a Palm developer's forum? :/

Jim

I said that writing ARMlets will be "wasted effort", not that they will be "broken". The effort will be wasted because Palm promises that in Palm OS 6, you can just compile your applications into all native ARM code directly.

"So whats wrong with making a 68k app with ARM subroutines? Its not a big deal theres a 1k 68k app at the front and the rest acvn be all ARM code? Woopee."

That's not how it works. You can't just write all your application in ARM code and call it from a 68k shim. There are lots of restrictions on what you can do from ARMlet code. Codewarrior tried to work around that a little, but it's still a chore. And if you are using other development tools, there is no easy workaround at all.

"Palm OS 5 is a stopgap, but its a good one. You think any other OS hasn't done stopgaps? We call it "upgrades" normally. Get over it :)"

Some OS upgrades are worthless, and some are worse than worthless because they require expensive new hardware to be purchased without giving you many new capabilities that you would care about. Palm OS 5 falls into that category in my opinion. Get a Sony SJ-30: it does everything you might want to do on a Palm for half the price of a Tungsten.

Personally I'm happy with my os 4 palm and am not planning on getting a new one until os 6 is released.

Interesting - in my experience, although I've had some issues getting my Palm (m505 & BT SD card) browsing the web over my TDK USB BT adapter, I've had no issues whatsover using it with my T68i (for both GPRS & CSD connections) - I regularly use it on the train to meetings, with the T68i still in my jacket pocket and the Palm on the table (using the portable keyboard) to send e-mails, etc. Have BT built-in rather than as an SD card would be great, as I could then still access documents that I've stored on SD card!

Cheers

Alan

I'm aware of the moderate sound quality when using Aerodrome or Pocket Tunes on the TT, and that seems to be an issue with how the OMAP's DSP is handling the audio - it's a Palm Inc. / TI issue not PalmSource. (and hopefully the fix will be posted before too long...) I think the other OS5 device lines (Clie NX-series) are using a MediaQ DSP for audio processing and the sound quality there is great.

In terms of a follow-up question for PalmSource, can someone refine it in terms of the operating system capabilities?

PalmSource Inc. makes OS5.

If there's such an interview, I have a list of problems ready for them. ;-)

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

>PalmSource Inc. makes OS5.

Well, that's exactly what I meant - according to some dissatisfied SanDisk customers, SanDisk is blaming the whole "slow write speed" issue on Palm - they claim Palm's driver needs to be updated (although the strange thing is that all other brands work fine). Doesn't that (a driver issue) fall into PalmSource's domain?

Oh, and BTW, I wasn't talking about OS4 devices (regarding the SD) - I'm referring to my trusty T|T. ;-)

I've posed the question to some people I know at Palm Inc. regarding the T|T and will post the info to PIC once I have an answer.

Cheers,

Dan

RealPlayer for Palm was promised before the end of this year. I think it is going to delay, partly because of this downsampling bug. I once wish the player would be ready before Christmas, now I just hope it's ready before the Chinese New Year. ;-)

Tony

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.