Comments on: PalmSource Licenses CIC's Jot for Graffiti 2
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RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
George
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
http://www.cic.com/support/faq/Pos/Jot/refcard.html
Why doesn't Palm just include a mechanism where you can train the device to recognize whatever characters you want? This may be what it takes to force me to switch platforms.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
>>I hope they keep the old graffiti in there too.
I love regular grafitti too, but they probably wont keep it. If the reason for change is the lawsuit, maybe they wont be allowed to keep it.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
If the reason for the change is the lawsuit, then basically Palm is running on the assumption that since Jot is licensed, Xerox can now sue the Jot folks instead of them. Oh joy!
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
Now I am no lawyer, but as I understand it, Xerox's patent was for a single stroke character recognition system. Jot, as I understand it, has a mixture of single stroke (L for example) and multiple stroke (T for example with a down stroke, and a cross bar stroke)characters, and therefore probably won't be covered by Xerox's patent. So I'd guess that PalmSource is probably thinking that CIC can't be sued under Xerox's patent.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
Yes, Palm is modifying it, but if CIC is to be responsible for Grafitti II, how much could they actually modify it from what is available now. If they modify it too much, wouldn't they open themselves to another lawsuit from Xerox?
This is a victory for Microsoft.
The difference between the two is like night and day: Jot requires a lot more strokes, and because it's based on a particular style of handwriting (however common it may be) if your handwriting isn't "American" enough it's really hard to get accurate.
Unless they basically clone Graffiti (and that would cast them back into the hands of the lawyers), I'd be hard-pressed to stay with Palm in the future.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
Why can't PalmSource simply either license the technology from Xerox or maybe just buy the patent from them?
What good is it to Xerox anyway, it seems to me that their only possible income from the patent is either from the lawsuit or a deal with Palm. I don't see it is in the interest of Xerox to watch Palm just walk away, the patent then becomes worthless.
Cheers!!
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
I'm looking at the ref cards and pretty much every character can be done with a single stroke (or Unistroke as I believe Xerox puts it). I don't see how this is any different than graffiti from a legal sense. Of course, if solely based on the single stroke mechanism, I think Xerox's patent is bogus anyhow.
Change for the sake of change, is bad...
Certainly this will not be an inexpensive move for a company that must really watch the purse strings.
Either Xerox won't let Palm continue using Graffiti, or Palm doesn't want to pay the tribute Xrx may be demanding.
Jot (and Graffiti 2) would have never been considered if Palm could keep Graffiti, so say good-bye.
While I found Graffiti easy to learn, it was difficult for me to write easily. Don't know why. I've also got a iPAQ, and while learning it's character set (or unlearning G)is slow, it's accuracy is *very* high.
I didn't want to spend the money for Jot years ago, but I guess that may change. By the time I get a Tungsten|T, it will probably have G2 inside.
And why would G2 "be the death of the Tungsten"? I'd have to think that Palm wouldn't let that happen.
And no matter how well one may have learnt it, an anlog input system won't help you spell any better.
______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
It looks like Q and especially U and V are going to be a real pain. I've gotten very used to being able to make up for a scrawled, indistinguishable V by scribbling it backwards. Losing the one-stroke convenience of K and Y will be sad too.
Of course, I don't have any real reason to upgrade from my Vx either, so it's not like I'll be forced away from Graffiti anytime soon. :)
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
Yes and no.
Yes, the Xerox suit prompted Palm, Inc. to take a fresh look at Graffiti and the alternatives. But once we initiated that study in earnest, we decided Graffiti 2 was the better choice, especially as we, along with our licensees, work to grow this very early market substantially.
But the answer is ALSO "No." When you consider that the lawsuit is still pending, no resolution has occurred and Palm Inc. continues to vigorously defend itself in court. This case might possibly go on for months, even years.
So, without waiting for court resolution -- independent of court resolution -- PalmSource concluded that Graffiti 2 Powered by Jot is better than original Graffiti because of its natural, intuitive character entry.
-- SeaPUG: http://www.seapug.com --
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
Sorry, but I strongly believe that you are wrong. See my comments on Brighthand for the details. But, the nutshell of it is that Graffiti offers higher accuracy and speed once learned. Because we're talking about devices that are used day in and day out by the user, a short learning curve for long term speed/accuracy gains is well worth it. I agree that adding additional options for the user is always a good thing. But removing the unistroke Graffiti alphabet is a bad thing.
Scott
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
>Sorry, but I strongly believe that you are wrong. See my comments on Brighthand for the details. But, the nutshell of it is that Graffiti offers higher accuracy and speed once learned.
Give it up Don Quixote. If you want speed and accuracy, learn FITALY. Any benefits of Graffiti over Graffiti 2 (Jot) are marginal at best, and the benefits of Jot over Graffiti are huge. People new to the world of handhelds will finally be able to pick up a Palm OS device and use it immediately. No learning necessary.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
The only gap apparent at this point is if a 3rd party developer will provide a Graffiti 1 solution once the new Palm OS builds begin appearing on new devices. I love graffiti and I'm sorry to see that Graffiti 2 won't support Graffiti 1. However, after trying Jot, I think I can make the transition pretty easily. However, for hard core users a 3rd party solution could really save the day. :-)
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
Graffiti II on older devices
RE: Graffiti II on older devices
RE: Graffiti II on older devices
RE: Graffiti II on older devices
But if you couldn't update your OS, why would you even ask?
RE: Graffiti II on older devices
1) Graffiti 2 will not support the Graffiti 1 characters
2) The Graffiti 2 system will also include support for a new unified "virtual Graffiti" API
3) Graffiti 2 also includes optional support for full-screen writing, at the licensee's discretion
Here is the link: http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2884.html
Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
I have been using Jot eversince I got my first Palm (Palm Vx).
It is so much more natural. you can write letters anyway you want, Jot will recognize it.
I would recommend both Jot and Textplus to speed up your input.
RE: Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
RE: Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
I'm glad you wrote that. It's a major thing driving the negative feedback you hear about losing graffiti. People realizing they might have to un-learn something.
Having natural handwriting recognition on a PDA is the direction ALL pdas will need to be at to attract any new users.
Jeff Kirvin mentioned it in a column a while back, before, when hardware was the limiting factor, graffiti made sense. Now, with processors being able to handle it, there's really no need for it.
Just add the option to use it for old schoolers. That's a good thing about PPC: multiple input methods.
RE: Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
Personnaly I have three style of handwriting !
1/ for letters, read by human
2/ for me, understand by me, only
3/ for white paper, readable far by a group of person
I can add graffiti, that I have learnt in twenty minutes...
Graffiti is (was?) optimized for human<->palm, writing while walking, or any other place than my desk !
Me too, I tried Jot for some months. "Great !"... One day, I started again graffiti, and I undestood why Graffiti was really better, if you decide to UNLEARNT that there is o n l y o n e t r u e h a n d w r i t i n g...
RE: Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
I agree, and it would be nice to have 'natural' recognition. I tried Jot again last night... every few months I'll decide to wing it and try another shot... but it took me ten minutes to write a two sentence email. If it's natural, it must be natural for someone else and not me! This is assuming that natural means writing as if you were writing on paper and not a PDA.
It's probably just me, but I have spent several days trying to get acquainted with Jot, and I'm still learning. It's not a case of accidentally using the Graffiti strokes instead of the Jot strokes. I'll go back and watch the animations just to make sure, then try it again... seems to require much more precision to get right. Jot is good if it’s easier for the individual, and breaking out of the silkscreen box is a good thing regardless of which one you prefer.
What will be a negative, is the elimination of choice due to a company claiming infringement on a character set that is not even the same as Graffiti. The courts need to make a decision here: Either all character recognition infringes the patent due to the input method, or only those which copy the character set.
If the later decision is made (again), we are all safe to choose. If the first decision is made, then we are all in trouble.
Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
I tried Jot at lunch. It takes some getting used to, but I see how this would be better for beginners. I can't say that I want to see this as the only option on future machines.
_____
Fammy
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Not the Tungsten T per se, but the form factor...
Short version: if Graffiti II makes the Graffiti area virtual (and is included in the next devices from Palm SG), then the TT's successor will look very different from the TT.
A new design?
http://link.freepichosting.com/image.cgi/17254/0.jpg
Yeah, it's an m505, so the Calc would of course be the Fav button, but whaddya think?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Not to brag, but I think my design gives the best of both worlds: retention of silkscreen buttons, and maximization of screen real estate. (320x480)
On another note, I downloaded Jot today and I love it. I've been using Graffiti since the release of the IIIx (my first), and while I still retain some of my old habits, I'm doing great with Jot after only a few hours. I still try to "Dot-punctuate," but I'll get out of that soon.
Also, it's sometimes difficult to write caps in the right spot, especially I's (That's I as in Icon).
http://www.ignavia.org
Design Update
http://link.freepichosting.com/image.cgi/17254/2.jpg
I deserve some applause... Those middle three icons are from SCRATCH! ;)
Back to whether the toolbar should be virtual or silkscreen... Does anyone remember the Royal DaVinci? It came out around '98 or '99. Royal got sued by Palm for patent infringement (How ironic). Anyhow, that device had a silkscreen toolbar /in addition/ to a Graffiti area with icons. See the pic for a better understanding:
http://www.royal.com/product-file/92/davi192/product.jpg
I think a silkscreened toolbar would work great.
Also, I measured the screen size and it's not 320x480 as would be expected...it's 320x390. How odd. I imagined that a virtual Graffiti area would automatically make a 320x480 screen. I was wrong. Even measuring to the very bottom of the curve, I still only get 460.
http://www.ignavia.org
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
> 320x480 as would be expected... it's 320x390.
> How odd. I imagined that a virtual Graffiti
> area would automatically make a 320x480 screen.
On the Clies with VG, there's another row in the VG area with the sort of icons you have there, hence the extra size. Nice work; one button you might need to add there is something to toggle on-screen grafitti (2), not unlike what Grafitti Anywhere does with a hard key.
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
The 5.2 update simply provides a new API for those licencees that support virtual grafitti areas. Finally, there is support for this feature built into the OS. Thus far, each licencee has had to create their own code in how to implement this feature. Sony does it one way, HandEra another, etc.
Does this mean that the next version of the TT will have virtual grafitti? Not necessarily. Palm SG has not been a big supporter of the virtual grafitti area. However, now that's it's supported by the OS, they may change their tune.
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
As longtime user of ScreenWrite (and now Newpen) and
MagicText Hack (now select tap in PalmOS 3.5), there is
a minor problem I'd like to point out. Taps can be
ambiguous. Is it a punctuation tap, or a select tap?
ScreenWrite has an option to restrict punctuation taps
to the graffiti area. Newpen recognizes graffiti area
taps unambiguously as punctuation, and screen taps
default to select taps (you can set an option for this).
Newpen also defines an alternate punctuation stroke:
diagonal from LR to UL corner of the screen.
Another solution, which I like, is to provide a punct
tap target when the the graffiti area is colapsed. As
long as we are designing a new compact silkscreen area,
lets put one there.
I, for one, hope Palm does *not* do away enitrely with
the graffiti area. Even with Newpen, I still sometimes
use the graffiti area. If the screen has lots of
selectable fields, like a spreadsheet or data entry
form, I prefer to write in the graffiti area. So
virtural graffiti area, but not *no* graffiti area.
As to worries about screen wear, I recommend a screen
protector. I use Avery Super Heavy Duty Diamond Clear
Sheet Proectors. It doens't have that paper textured
feel, but they are *cheap* and durable. They are also
very clear, until they are scratched up, anyway.
If Palm does not make Graffiti II trainable or allow
replacable character sets, this may open a new area for
enhancements. I have a Graffiti recognizer add-on to my
Newton 2100. Someone *should* be able to make one for
PalmOS. Maybe Jeff Hawkins could create a trainable
recognizer enhancement and/or a tool for creating new
character sets.
- Tere
- Tere
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
RE: Tere has good points
On the note of virtual screen vs. the sample silk screen buttons, I think the only frequently used buttons used are Home and Search...the menu button can be done more simply by tapping the menu bar, and the calc is not that special, and can just be in the standard Main menu like all the other applications. Contrast can be in the standard System menu.
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T? NAH!
that way you never have to worry about G2 popping up in a tap-based-game.
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
There are hacks that make good use of the calc button beyond just bringing up the calculator. For
example, I use Insidious Calc. On any text entry field, I can write a simple ASMD expression and tap
the calc button and it Insidious Calc it, either appending or replacing the expression.
I think having the contrast one tap away is nice. Having to tap, pull down a menu and select would
be a bit more of a pain.
I had another thought. How would the new mini-silkscreen arrangement effect buttont to button strokes,
like for app/da launcher and XMSwitchSet? If these strokes are defined by start and end point, they
should still work.
- Tere
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Hey ignavia, try adding a D-Pad and Speaker, then send it to palm. =p
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Graffiti Emulation in PocketPC
OS 5.1/5.1.2/5.2??
Cheers
Alan
RE: OS 5.1/5.1.2/5.2??
The implementation of Grafitti 2 as well as the bug fixes and support for virtual grafitti areas will probably appear first on new devices. For example the Tungsten W had support for Jot when it was announced back in September of last year. I would imagine that the TW will be running the latest build of the 4.x Palm OS.
The bottom line is that PalmSource has made this announcement and change, but it's up to the licensees to make it available to us. How soon and in what flavor has yet to be seen.
With any luck, one of the many fine 3rd party Palm OS developers will create be a Grafitti 1 hack/app and come to the resuce of hardcore Grafitti users.
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
The only thing I miss from the Pocket PC is its cursive handwriting recognition. The program was Calligrapher licensed to Microsoft under the name Transcriber. I write cursive on paper and I find it slow and unnatural to write character by character (Grafiti, Jot). Transcriber worked great for me and it is the only thing I truly miss from the PocketPC platform.
I wish there is something like Calligrapher for Palm OS.
Am I the only one here?
RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
ICK!
Ick
RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
In addition, cursive writing is a continous, left-to-right process. With the limited space on a PDA screen, you would need to be lifting your stylus and starting from the left again -- thereby eliminating the advantage of cursive in the first place.
Just my 2 cents.
RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
>>be hard for the software to know when one character
>>ended and another began.
Well, supposedly PPC did it, didn't they?
RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
It would be a good option to have and would probably be quicker than lifting the stylus between every characer. We can't use the excuse of "not enough processor" now... they don't make too many 16Mhz devices anymore.
RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA
RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
RE: cursive in various software rec software
There is no reason that Palm couldn't offer Calligrapher for Palm as an option. In PPC they offer at least 3 different types of character recognition...jot, graffitti clone, and Calligrapher. You can choose which one you like or can switch back and forth.
Apple's Newton was a cursive AND a roman character recognizer. You could write in either and it would figure out which style you were writing in. You could also pre-set how you wrote a particular letter so the recognition for that letter would be improved. For example you could set your t to have a slant, or to have a little tail at the bottom or to just be straight up.
However the best thing about Newton's recognition is you could write across the screen in a very natural way, rather than write letters on the same space. I think this is what makes most writing recognition software hard to use. You basically have to write letters on top of each other which is very unnatural. Newton didn't require this.
One problem however is the small size of the Palm screen. The Newton screen was quite alot bigger than the Palm screen so you could write several words across the Newton screen.
I also liked that you could scratch out a word and it would be erased with a puff of smoke. Cute but also a nice "trick" from a marketing point of view. Everyone always loved that feature.
Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
MTT
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
I agree that having the ability to download "packs" of different Grafitti 2 character sets, but Palm's usual incompetence and bungled decisions make this very unlikely to happen. Two months ago, I was a huge T|T fan. Now I sit here fuming over the lack of decent support to configure a simple shared internet connection via Bluetooth, the hollow promises of the mp3 player/Real spyware that may never come out, the low-pass filter bug, and now the whole Grafitti/Jot issue.
I might just end up selling all of my Palm stuff and using my cell phone's built in address book and calendar. I'll carry one of the new backlit Gameboys in the pocket where I carried a Palm for 4+ years ;-)
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
I didn't follow the Palm OS news scene prior to 2000 very closely, even though I used a Pilot 1000/Pilot Pro/IIIe before my Vx.
Were there a lot of missteps/mishandlings/false promises by Palm back in the previous century--that is, the first 4 years or so that Palms were on the market? The only one I can possibly think of was the much vaunted but never capitalized upon "expansion slot" of the IIIx.
I mean, it seems that starting with the release of the Palm VII and its less than impressive feature set, each new generation of Palm devices has created possibly more controversy/disaoppointment than acclaim. The m505 was panned from day one, but the Tungsten T seems to gaining critics at an alarming rate as of late.
Have the expectations of Palm users been raised drastically in the past few years of PPC's increased marketshare or is Palm just losing their touch, so to speak? I'd assume it's a combination of both.
My essential feelings as to the loss of "original" Graffiti are analogous to arriving at college and being told I had to take all tests in blue ink-no pencils allowed!
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
I don't think Palm has failed to deliver on promises that it's made in the past. The "expansion slot" that the IIIx had was never capitalized by 3rd party hardware developers is all. I don't think Palm had any plans to create accessories using that slot. I think they were relying on 3rd parties to use it. However, this slot really wasn't much different than the original memory slot and 3rd party developers didn't really jump on it even back then. The only company that DID make products that supported it was HandEra (http://www.handera.com).
That being said, most feel that Palm has made a few mis-steps in the past few years. The m505 is one of the products that really didn't receive much praise. IMHO, the release of the Tungsten T is a step in the right direction. This is the first "home run" that Palm has had since the Palm V and it looks to be doing quite well.
I hope that this marks a new Renaissance for Palm SG and that they continue to "knock them out of the park."
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
Is it that difficult to release a correction for the Low-Pass Bug?!?! One Bug?! A tiny thing!? Pleaseee...
By the way, isn't it possible for some of us to make that correction by our-selves? I'm not a Palm Hacker, but, couldn't it be possible?!
Or...... Is it really true this is a Software BUG? ;)
I would trust palm 1 or 2 months ago. Not now, really. They seem to have only one thing in their heads: and that is money!!!!
Call whatever you want, but the things that are happening with the T|T have one name: false publicity! They don't want this to happen? They don't want complain to raise? Then they should be doing something, don't you think?
Yeah, I owed a palm III, IIIx, IIIc and now the T|T. Better was to pay 1/2 of the price, and get myself an m505...
Cheers ppl!
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
Ditto Sony. What is up with this NZ?? If I wanted a shrunken laptop, I'd get a smaller convertible Tablet PC! I'll be sticking with my NX (love it, btw!!!).
Hey PDA makers: When we, the people, are spending between $200 and $600 (ouch!) per device, we want fewer small steps, more giant leaps! Oh, and quit pandering to the "low-end users" you keep trying to convert. We power users are the best marketing you have! Besides, how are those Zire sales figures looking, anyway?
All IMHO. :)
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
As for customizable handwriting characters, try out the OpenZaurus distribution for the Sharp Zaurus. The default character set is Jot-like, but it's fully customizable and you can download additional character sets. There's even a nice pre-packaged Graffiti one available, takes about 10 seconds to download and install.
http://www.openzaurus.org/
--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA
RE: Newton's letters was customizable
Apple still owns the technology for Newton's hand writing software and may be incorporating it into their OS, to be used on writing pads. It could be modified to work on a Palm probably as long as it was not to processor dependent.
Unused expansion slots and blue ink
"The only one I can possibly think of was the much vaunted but never capitalized upon 'expansion slot' of the IIIx."
Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. Kind of the same situation as the mysterious "mezzanine" slot on the rev. A iMacs...
"My essential feelings as to the loss of 'original' Graffiti are analogous to arriving at college and being told I had to take all tests in blue ink-no pencils allowed!"
Wild! What college was it that made this oddly draconian edict?
New Tungsten Palm...
Anyone know what this device may be like... or when we'll be seeing it? Could influence my purchasing of a Tungsten|T.
RE: New Tungsten Palm...
Jot is too much american handwriting oriented
Graffiti is too much different from handwriting and, by this, is more difficult to make confusion.
I hope that Palm will modify Jot to make it more simple for non american people (indipendently from the OS language: I want to use English PalmOS but with an Italian recognizer).
Just my two cents.
RE: Jot is too much american handwriting oriented
Is this an early April Fool's joke
RE: Is this an early April Fool's joke
I used JOT for two months... Great ! Until I have again the same problems. Because of the bad position of my palm in my hand (lightning conditions, pen...). When solved, I went back to Graffiti, speeder....
Vote for Graffiti
But I'm going to be *very* unhappy if this Jot "enhancement" will not allow me to program in Graffiti as their current keystrokes, or if Jot makes me either have to unlearn Graffiti to learn someting else (like grade school cursive, yuck!) or slows me down with multi-stroke characters where one stroke suffices today...
This upsets me a lot more than the fact that the mp3 playing is flawed. I've already learned that if you want a digital camera or mp3 player or GPS device, buy a standalone device because it's going to work a hell of a lot better than a 'swiss knife' handheld.
I hope Palm is listening!
J
RE: Vote for Graffiti
J
I *HATE* Jot!
I loathe Jot. I will reserve my final disgust and contempt for when I can actually see the character shapes.
But This Is Not Good.
It seems -- how hilariously ironic! -- that the ONLY people who will have Classic Graffiti are POCKET PC OWNERS!
Way to go PalmSource... duh!
RE: I *HATE* Jot!
All of this leads me to a horrible, shameful confession. After long years of inwardly rolling my eyes or chuckling at those die-hard, clinging-to-the-last-scrap Newton users ... looks like I'm in danger of joining their ranks, clinging desperately to my current, Graffiti-using machine.
Humble pie tastes terrible.
RE: I *HATE* Jot!
You do have the option to select between Jot and Graffiti in the current version, but that will probably change.
RE: I *HATE* Jot!
Hey Palm or PalmSource, listen up. Sue PPC and use the money to buy the patent from Xerox!
RE: I *HATE* Jot!
Stop with that "true handwriting". Non sense !
Actually, we do speak of "human reading writing".
But a PDA is a computer and it don't care of the policy..
RE: I *HATE* Jot!
But remember, this only applies to new devices and each licensee will implement the new revs of the Palm OS over time. So, I would expect that over the next year we'll see both Grafitti 1 and Grafitti 2 devices released over 2003.
Although the announcement is a bit of a shock, I think that in the end, we'll see everything iron out and everyone happy with their options. New users will have Jot and hard core Grafitti users will have Grafitti 1 as an add-on.
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
RE: I *HATE* Jot!
I have NEVER been able to get it to recognize a T the way it wants it written -- two strokes. A pox and a pestilence on it. I tried it way back when I had my Palm III, grabbed it a day or so after it was announced for PalmOS (it had previously only been available for, cough, "Palm-size PCs"), and dumped it the same day.
OTOH, if this "enhanced" version has a mode where I can tell it, "Look, I write THIS and you put out THIS letter" -- well, I'd just switch every damned letter to GRAFFITI format!
But then, there's still the matter of the dot-prefixed "letters" -- . , ; et al...
AAR, *some* company is going to wind up cleaning up by selling Classic Graffiti as software... "Graffiti by Xerox"? Hah!
Broad-based?
"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown
Give em a break
Palm wouldn't do away with graffiti, one of the main reasons for the success of the original PalmPilot IMHo if they didn't have to. Seeing that they don't have a choice now, they have just gone on to the next viable option. Been a user of graffiti for the first 1/2 year after getting my Visor Prism and switched to jot after and it was pretty allright. I know of course its a matter of personal preferences but I think Palm knew their strengths, if they didn't haf to do away with graffiti, they wud just leave it as it was and people who prefered JOT could go get JOT themselves as a 3rd party add in. But the thing is they can't!
xolstis
Clear up
Know that it is Palm's(hardware) job to iron out software issues in the T|T and not PalmSource who just does the OS, but what I am saying is it may not be as easy as it was before now that they are sepearate entitities
xolstis
RE: Broad-based?
"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown
GOD NO!!!
RE: GOD NO!!!
That being said, if you haven't tried Jot, I encourage you to at least give it a shot (https://secure.cic.com/demo/). For the average user, it's not that big of a transition and in some ways is kind of nice. I've been using it for a little while and I'm starting to get used to it.
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
RE: GOD NO!!!
RE: GOD NO!!!
If anyone knows how to revert to graffiti 1, where I can buy a copy or where I can buy a bootleg version, please let me know.
Death of silkscreened graffiti area
I want lots of screen real estate and a color screen, like on the Sony NX-series, but also on a unit that I can use with an external full-size keyboard (Palm Ultra-thin Portable, for example).
So if all future Palm units have virtual graffiti, then I'm all for it (even if it means unlearning graffiti, which I learned back in 1997)!
Jot and Bugme - Jot and backlight, clock icon
Regards, Tom S.
Jot missing characters
1) There is no "left arrow" or "right arrow" character. That is, there is no way to move the cursor over one character in either direction. This is especially concerning to me because I can't always tap on the left most spot on a line. I often have to "left arrow" one or two times.
2) The "two stroke" characters, such as the "t", don't always work in applications that implement "Look Up:" like the built-in Address book. For example, if your address book has (only) the records: Irwin, Sand, Stephanik, and Thomas and you enter "st" (using the two stroke 't') in the "Look Up" field, it won't find "Stephanic" but rather "Thomas". The problem is that Jot attempts to delete the intermediate character that was already deleted by "Look Up:".
RE: Jot missing characters
However, we haven't seen the implmentation that PalmSource has included in the OS. Plus keep in mind that each licensee may make slight modifications as well. Until we see an actual device all we can do is guess.
Regarding the command strokes, you're right that some of them will not work. For example any command stroke using "i" will no longer function properly since the letter "i" is now a double-stroke character. The developer would have to modify their software to support the new character stroke. It's not the end of the world, but there will be a transition period.
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
RE: Jot missing characters
RE: Jot missing characters
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
RE: Jot missing characters
"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown
RE: Jot missing characters
On top of that, each licensee could implement more features. The PalmSource version is the baseline.
Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
Download the Palm Simulator from www.palmsource.com
I have tried it, and i am impressed. There is a bit of unlearning and learning to do but i do think that the system works far better.
Recognition of shapes with a mouse was spot on. And the fact that you can write capital letters without doing the shift strok has got to be worth it.
Try it and see.
RE: Download the Palm Simulator from www.palmsource.com
"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown
Last Palm I will buy
I am really disappointed by the news about Graffiti 2 and Jot. I like the one stroke system and after my 3rd Palm (the III) is about to die, I tried a Pocket PC (Toshiba E335), but the deal breaker was the recognition software - I tried transcriber and block, and on a side by side basis, my Palm accuracy was 99%, my Pocket PC accuracy was not even 50%.
Grafitti is one of the best things about Palm, and to the extent this reduces differentiation with Pocket PC, I think it will be the death knell for Palm.
I am now shopping for my next Palm, as long as it has Grafitti!
RE: Last Palm I will buy
RE: Last Palm I will buy
Why does this eliminate grafitti area?
owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, TUNGSTEN T!!
Jot ain't that great
CIC did not at that time have any customer support - in fact it appeared the company was based in India and had difficulties with English language support. Couple of months later they released a patch which they do about every 2 years or so, and that seemed to work with some 4.0 devices. So we rewrote our customer support template to tell people about that after we had tested it. These bunch are just jerks and I am personally really disappointed that they got this contract.
What is repeatedly mentioned as research in length was nothing else but a couple of poor programmers chained to a Windows box with the command to come up with something derived of Grafitti that would be applicable to WindowsCE and rewrite it in such a way that people will have a tough time to sue. Steal where you can - don't worry about Palm. We'll find somebody to make it Palm for $500.00 if we feel it can be sold. CIC is the bottom of the pit and should not even be rewarded. The programmers aren't.
The changes the image of the company went through recently are wisely orchestrated and some new money has been found. It is all facade. As a Palm programmer I feel disgusted that Palm associates itself with CIC.
YIIY -
Favorite Input system? A poll of sorts
I think the stowaway/think outside/palm keyboards are very popular - but not helpful in this scenario.
Grafiti? Jot? New pen? The text thing - instant text? Fitaly?
Personally I stopped using grafiti after about a few weeks - too slow and labor intensive. I use Fitaly which works pretty well. But maybe there is something better?
Thanks
someone tell me how to add a picture, then I will really scare you all!
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