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Comments on: PalmSource Licenses CIC's Jot for Graffiti 2

(Updated 1/14 2:35pm) Grafitti as you know it is about to change. Communication Intelligence Corporation (CIC) and PalmSource Inc. announced today a licensing agreement for CIC's Jot handwriting recognition software for the next generation of data input for the Palm OS. PalmSource will enhance Jot and rebrand it as Grafitti 2, powered by Jot.
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Change is Bad I fear Change

Doo @ 1/13/2003 11:55:51 AM #
I hope the old Grafti is still in there. The simply characters, once you learn them, are really fast.

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
GKreamer @ 1/13/2003 12:05:32 PM #
This is great! I have used Jot for almost 3 years and it is much faster than Graffiti (IMHO). One big complaint by new users is that Graffiti is too hard to learn. This should help tremendously.

George

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
helf @ 1/13/2003 12:29:03 PM #
I hope they keep the old graffiti in there too :) I haven never liked jot much.

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
ganoe @ 1/13/2003 1:09:48 PM #
This is a huge disappointment. I agree with the others who hope they keep graffiti in there. Graffiti was perfect because the characters were distinct, just similar enough to the actual letters, and it was very easy for me to be accurate. There's no way Jot would recognize my horrible handwriting with their characters.

http://www.cic.com/support/faq/Pos/Jot/refcard.html

Why doesn't Palm just include a mechanism where you can train the device to recognize whatever characters you want? This may be what it takes to force me to switch platforms.

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
mclove @ 1/13/2003 1:32:37 PM #
Check out TealScript (http://www.tealpoint.com/) - allows you to do exactly that. Not available for OS5 yet but they say it will be soon.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
potter @ 1/13/2003 2:39:23 PM #
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
JKingGrim @ 1/13/2003 2:41:07 PM #
>>I hope the old Grafti is still in there.

>>I hope they keep the old graffiti in there too.

I love regular grafitti too, but they probably wont keep it. If the reason for change is the lawsuit, maybe they wont be allowed to keep it.

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
ganoe @ 1/13/2003 3:01:33 PM #
> If the reason for change is the lawsuit, maybe they wont be allowed to keep it.

If the reason for the change is the lawsuit, then basically Palm is running on the assumption that since Jot is licensed, Xerox can now sue the Jot folks instead of them. Oh joy!

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
M3wThr33 @ 1/13/2003 3:17:18 PM #
I would pay Xerox for a personal license for it. Say.. $25 more for a PDA?

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
Jedi @ 1/13/2003 4:25:08 PM #
>>If the reason for the change is the lawsuit, then basically Palm is running on the assumption that since Jot is licensed, Xerox can now sue the Jot folks instead of them. Oh joy!


Now I am no lawyer, but as I understand it, Xerox's patent was for a single stroke character recognition system. Jot, as I understand it, has a mixture of single stroke (L for example) and multiple stroke (T for example with a down stroke, and a cross bar stroke)characters, and therefore probably won't be covered by Xerox's patent. So I'd guess that PalmSource is probably thinking that CIC can't be sued under Xerox's patent.

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
dboehme @ 1/13/2003 5:24:07 PM #
I just downloaded the Jot 2.0 demo and it seems very easy to get used to.

Yes, Palm is modifying it, but if CIC is to be responsible for Grafitti II, how much could they actually modify it from what is available now. If they modify it too much, wouldn't they open themselves to another lawsuit from Xerox?


This is a victory for Microsoft.
quengho @ 1/13/2003 5:30:01 PM #
After the first Mobius conference, Microsoft realised that they had to emulate Graffiti very closely to win over Palm users. They created a graffiti-clone called "Block Recogniser", and of course kept the Jot-based "Character Recogniser".

The difference between the two is like night and day: Jot requires a lot more strokes, and because it's based on a particular style of handwriting (however common it may be) if your handwriting isn't "American" enough it's really hard to get accurate.

Unless they basically clone Graffiti (and that would cast them back into the hands of the lawyers), I'd be hard-pressed to stay with Palm in the future.

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
djh @ 1/13/2003 8:47:23 PM #
Like many users, I would prefer to have Graffiti in any new Palm that I buy.
Why can't PalmSource simply either license the technology from Xerox or maybe just buy the patent from them?
What good is it to Xerox anyway, it seems to me that their only possible income from the patent is either from the lawsuit or a deal with Palm. I don't see it is in the interest of Xerox to watch Palm just walk away, the patent then becomes worthless.

Cheers!!
RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
ganoe @ 1/14/2003 8:44:35 AM #
> Jot requires a lot more strokes ...

I'm looking at the ref cards and pretty much every character can be done with a single stroke (or Unistroke as I believe Xerox puts it). I don't see how this is any different than graffiti from a legal sense. Of course, if solely based on the single stroke mechanism, I think Xerox's patent is bogus anyhow.

Change for the sake of change, is bad...
RAMdŽd @ 1/14/2003 11:31:30 AM #
...and likely Palm has no choice, but we'd have to have more info from Palm to know for sure.

Certainly this will not be an inexpensive move for a company that must really watch the purse strings.

Either Xerox won't let Palm continue using Graffiti, or Palm doesn't want to pay the tribute Xrx may be demanding.

Jot (and Graffiti 2) would have never been considered if Palm could keep Graffiti, so say good-bye.

While I found Graffiti easy to learn, it was difficult for me to write easily. Don't know why. I've also got a iPAQ, and while learning it's character set (or unlearning G)is slow, it's accuracy is *very* high.

I didn't want to spend the money for Jot years ago, but I guess that may change. By the time I get a Tungsten|T, it will probably have G2 inside.

And why would G2 "be the death of the Tungsten"? I'd have to think that Palm wouldn't let that happen.

And no matter how well one may have learnt it, an anlog input system won't help you spell any better.



______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
rueyeet @ 1/14/2003 4:16:10 PM #
Thanks for the character set link; nice to know what to expect.

It looks like Q and especially U and V are going to be a real pain. I've gotten very used to being able to make up for a scrawled, indistinguishable V by scribbling it backwards. Losing the one-stroke convenience of K and Y will be sad too.

Of course, I don't have any real reason to upgrade from my Vx either, so it's not like I'll be forced away from Graffiti anytime soon. :)

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
GregGaub @ 1/14/2003 8:10:20 PM #
Did the pending Xerox lawsuit alleging Palm infringes certain handwriting-recognition patents have an impact on Palm's decision to move to Graffiti 2?

Yes and no.

Yes, the Xerox suit prompted Palm, Inc. to take a fresh look at Graffiti and the alternatives. But once we initiated that study in earnest, we decided Graffiti 2 was the better choice, especially as we, along with our licensees, work to grow this very early market substantially.

But the answer is ALSO "No." When you consider that the lawsuit is still pending, no resolution has occurred and Palm Inc. continues to vigorously defend itself in court. This case might possibly go on for months, even years.

So, without waiting for court resolution -- independent of court resolution -- PalmSource concluded that Graffiti 2 Powered by Jot is better than original Graffiti because of its natural, intuitive character entry.


-- SeaPUG: http://www.seapug.com --

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
Scott R @ 1/15/2003 11:19:25 AM #
"So, without waiting for court resolution -- independent of court resolution -- PalmSource concluded that Graffiti 2 Powered by Jot is better than original Graffiti because of its natural, intuitive character entry."

Sorry, but I strongly believe that you are wrong. See my comments on Brighthand for the details. But, the nutshell of it is that Graffiti offers higher accuracy and speed once learned. Because we're talking about devices that are used day in and day out by the user, a short learning curve for long term speed/accuracy gains is well worth it. I agree that adding additional options for the user is always a good thing. But removing the unistroke Graffiti alphabet is a bad thing.

Scott

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
EdH @ 1/15/2003 11:47:55 AM #
"So, without waiting for court resolution -- independent of court resolution -- PalmSource concluded that Graffiti 2 Powered by Jot is better than original Graffiti because of its natural, intuitive character entry."

>Sorry, but I strongly believe that you are wrong. See my comments on Brighthand for the details. But, the nutshell of it is that Graffiti offers higher accuracy and speed once learned.

Give it up Don Quixote. If you want speed and accuracy, learn FITALY. Any benefits of Graffiti over Graffiti 2 (Jot) are marginal at best, and the benefits of Jot over Graffiti are huge. People new to the world of handhelds will finally be able to pick up a Palm OS device and use it immediately. No learning necessary.

RE: Change is Bad I fear Change
mashby @ 1/15/2003 1:02:34 PM #
To each his own. This can easily turn into a "Ford vs. Chevy" argument if we're not careful. Some of us like Graffiti 1 and some prefer Fitaly, or Jot, the list goes on. Luckily there are plenty of 3rd party options for users to choose from!

The only gap apparent at this point is if a 3rd party developer will provide a Graffiti 1 solution once the new Palm OS builds begin appearing on new devices. I love graffiti and I'm sorry to see that Graffiti 2 won't support Graffiti 1. However, after trying Jot, I think I can make the transition pretty easily. However, for hard core users a 3rd party solution could really save the day. :-)


Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com

Graffiti II on older devices

plaid @ 1/13/2003 12:18:38 PM #
I hope they make this available as a purchasable addon for current devices, not just new ones. I'm pretty comfortable with graffiti so that when I tried out Jot, I thought that Jot felt more 'unnatural'. I'd like to start getting used to the graffiti II now rather than waiting several months until I can upgrade from my T615. I know I can try Jot now, but as the report suggests, palm will be making some changes to it.

RE: Graffiti II on older devices
popko @ 1/13/2003 12:51:08 PM #
Why not just get Jot now? It will run on most PalmOS based devices.

RE: Graffiti II on older devices
popko @ 1/13/2003 12:52:31 PM #
Never mind. I didn't catch the last line when I read your post for the first time.

RE: Graffiti II on older devices
ignavia @ 1/13/2003 6:55:08 PM #
Brighthand says Graffiti will be included in PalmOS 4.1.2, so unless you have a non-Flash Palm.

But if you couldn't update your OS, why would you even ask?

RE: Graffiti II on older devices
gfunkmagic @ 1/13/2003 11:59:15 PM #
okay I just saw an updated story on infosync about this topic and they report a few new interesting points:

1) Graffiti 2 will not support the Graffiti 1 characters

2) The Graffiti 2 system will also include support for a new unified "virtual Graffiti" API

3) Graffiti 2 also includes optional support for full-screen writing, at the licensee's discretion

Here is the link: http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2884.html


Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better

dragonknight @ 1/13/2003 1:03:56 PM #
than Palms Graffiti.

I have been using Jot eversince I got my first Palm (Palm Vx).

It is so much more natural. you can write letters anyway you want, Jot will recognize it.

I would recommend both Jot and Textplus to speed up your input.

RE: Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
Altema @ 1/13/2003 2:57:38 PM #
I guess that my problem is that I learned graffiti quickly, and have to work out of the habit somehow. I have had the Jot demo for about a week and am having trouble making a mental break from the graffiti character set.

RE: Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
sub_tex @ 1/13/2003 3:14:51 PM #
"I guess that my problem is that I learned graffiti quickly, and have to work out of the habit somehow."

I'm glad you wrote that. It's a major thing driving the negative feedback you hear about losing graffiti. People realizing they might have to un-learn something.

Having natural handwriting recognition on a PDA is the direction ALL pdas will need to be at to attract any new users.

Jeff Kirvin mentioned it in a column a while back, before, when hardware was the limiting factor, graffiti made sense. Now, with processors being able to handle it, there's really no need for it.

Just add the option to use it for old schoolers. That's a good thing about PPC: multiple input methods.

RE: Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
amike @ 1/14/2003 4:15:53 AM #
True or real or natural handwriting are nonsense !!!

Personnaly I have three style of handwriting !
1/ for letters, read by human
2/ for me, understand by me, only
3/ for white paper, readable far by a group of person

I can add graffiti, that I have learnt in twenty minutes...

Graffiti is (was?) optimized for human<->palm, writing while walking, or any other place than my desk !

Me too, I tried Jot for some months. "Great !"... One day, I started again graffiti, and I undestood why Graffiti was really better, if you decide to UNLEARNT that there is o n l y o n e t r u e h a n d w r i t i n g...

RE: Try Jot and you will see why it is TEN times better
Altema @ 1/15/2003 1:46:44 PM #
"Having natural handwriting recognition on a PDA is the direction ALL pdas will need to be at to attract any new users."

I agree, and it would be nice to have 'natural' recognition. I tried Jot again last night... every few months I'll decide to wing it and try another shot... but it took me ten minutes to write a two sentence email. If it's natural, it must be natural for someone else and not me! This is assuming that natural means writing as if you were writing on paper and not a PDA.

It's probably just me, but I have spent several days trying to get acquainted with Jot, and I'm still learning. It's not a case of accidentally using the Graffiti strokes instead of the Jot strokes. I'll go back and watch the animations just to make sure, then try it again... seems to require much more precision to get right. Jot is good if it’s easier for the individual, and breaking out of the silkscreen box is a good thing regardless of which one you prefer.

What will be a negative, is the elimination of choice due to a company claiming infringement on a character set that is not even the same as Graffiti. The courts need to make a decision here: Either all character recognition infringes the patent due to the input method, or only those which copy the character set.

If the later decision is made (again), we are all safe to choose. If the first decision is made, then we are all in trouble.

Does this mean death of Tungsten T?

gfunkmagic @ 1/13/2003 1:06:19 PM #
Well if "Graffiti II" no longer requires a hard graffiti area, then what will be the point of a sliding mechanism on the T|T? I bet Palm SG's next device will not have this mechanism and will introduce a pda w/Graffiti II only... sorta like virtual graffiti II?

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
MikeInDM @ 1/13/2003 1:36:16 PM #
That's quite a jump.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Fammy @ 1/13/2003 1:51:25 PM #
The graffiti area still hold the action buttons: Home, Menu, Search, Favorite. I do agree that being able to write anywhere on the screen lessons the need for the graffiti area.

I tried Jot at lunch. It takes some getting used to, but I see how this would be better for beginners. I can't say that I want to see this as the only option on future machines.

_____
Fammy

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Marshall Flinkman @ 1/13/2003 2:28:05 PM #
I'd anticipate that if they take out the hard Graffiti area, they'll find some way to invoke the silkscreen buttons--a little toolbar on the lower edge of the screen or something. After all, they actually have six functions apart from Graffiti in that space now, counting the clock and contrast slider.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
JKingGrim @ 1/13/2003 2:49:15 PM #
This does not mean T|t death. The T|t does not have Grafiti II. I personally think they should leave the hard grafiti area, or change it to soft, rather than totally getting rid of that section. If they get rid of it, where do you write? Writing on the screen is not an option in games because games use screen taps. Writing on the screen in other apps could get annoying, because every stray tap is a graffiti shift.

Not the Tungsten T per se, but the form factor...
Marshall Flinkman @ 1/13/2003 3:44:37 PM #
Obviously, the TT doesn't run Graffiti II, and can't unless it's available as an add-on. But look at all the different series from Palm over the last few years--the III series, the V series, the VII series, the m1xx and m5xx series (except the Zire and TT). Not that other companies don't do it too, but Palm had more models with very few form factors. If the Graffiti area is no longer required on a new model, then why have the slider? The slider just seems arbitrary.

Short version: if Graffiti II makes the Graffiti area virtual (and is included in the next devices from Palm SG), then the TT's successor will look very different from the TT.

A new design?
ignavia @ 1/13/2003 5:46:21 PM #
Since Graffiti 2 doesn't require a special graffiti area, yes, it could be dropped completely. But what about the oh-so-vital silkscreen buttons? Marshall pointed out that the graffiti area is home to six functions unrelated to text entry. So here's my concept:

http://link.freepichosting.com/image.cgi/17254/0.jpg

Yeah, it's an m505, so the Calc would of course be the Fav button, but whaddya think?

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
graph @ 1/13/2003 7:34:44 PM #
nice one.. believable =)

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
gfunkmagic @ 1/13/2003 7:46:05 PM #
hey not bad!!

ignavia
Gekko @ 1/13/2003 7:54:52 PM #
I love your concept. you should email it to those nitwits at Palm.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
distrachi @ 1/13/2003 8:35:59 PM #
Good concept but I think making it virtual would be better. That way people can customize the buttons to start their favorite apps. Or give the option to hide it.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
twizza @ 1/13/2003 9:33:18 PM #
shoot that concept is really good. i was very shocked by just the simplicity [aka Zen] of the design. I would say that PalmSG would be smart to pick up on this. The only question I would ask is if this would be a 320/480 or a 160/240 screen. i am thinking that former becasue that seems to be the route that PalmSG is going.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
ignavia @ 1/14/2003 12:15:59 AM #
I would much prefer a little bar like that to a completely virtual area. Sometimes, it's reallt great to be able to simply hit the Apps button to return to the Apps screen. Going through a menu of any sort is too much trouble.

Not to brag, but I think my design gives the best of both worlds: retention of silkscreen buttons, and maximization of screen real estate. (320x480)

On another note, I downloaded Jot today and I love it. I've been using Graffiti since the release of the IIIx (my first), and while I still retain some of my old habits, I'm doing great with Jot after only a few hours. I still try to "Dot-punctuate," but I'll get out of that soon.

Also, it's sometimes difficult to write caps in the right spot, especially I's (That's I as in Icon).

http://www.ignavia.org

Design Update
ignavia @ 1/14/2003 2:02:46 AM #
I was bored, so I updated my design. The one thing that was missing was keyboard launching, so here it is...

http://link.freepichosting.com/image.cgi/17254/2.jpg

I deserve some applause... Those middle three icons are from SCRATCH! ;)

Back to whether the toolbar should be virtual or silkscreen... Does anyone remember the Royal DaVinci? It came out around '98 or '99. Royal got sued by Palm for patent infringement (How ironic). Anyhow, that device had a silkscreen toolbar /in addition/ to a Graffiti area with icons. See the pic for a better understanding:

http://www.royal.com/product-file/92/davi192/product.jpg

I think a silkscreened toolbar would work great.

Also, I measured the screen size and it's not 320x480 as would be expected...it's 320x390. How odd. I imagined that a virtual Graffiti area would automatically make a 320x480 screen. I was wrong. Even measuring to the very bottom of the curve, I still only get 460.

http://www.ignavia.org

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
fridael @ 1/14/2003 3:27:10 AM #
Well the problem with writing on the screen is that it wears out the display. Older models may not have been designed with this usage in mind.
RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Enfors @ 1/14/2003 6:16:25 AM #
Guys? This concept is not new. It's what the 320x480 clies do. They allow you to "minimize" the grafitti area, reducing it to a toolbar with the application, menu, calucator etc buttons.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Marshall Flinkman @ 1/14/2003 7:11:25 AM #
Do the Clie toolbars have all the functions, though (even just all 4 of the main silkscreen buttons)? My recollection is no, but I haven't looked in a while.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
IanJD @ 1/14/2003 9:03:14 AM #
> Also, I measured the screen size and it's not
> 320x480 as would be expected... it's 320x390.
> How odd. I imagined that a virtual Graffiti
> area would automatically make a 320x480 screen.

On the Clies with VG, there's another row in the VG area with the sort of icons you have there, hence the extra size. Nice work; one button you might need to add there is something to toggle on-screen grafitti (2), not unlike what Grafitti Anywhere does with a hard key.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
mashby @ 1/14/2003 9:10:16 AM #
This does not mean the death of the Tungsten T.

The 5.2 update simply provides a new API for those licencees that support virtual grafitti areas. Finally, there is support for this feature built into the OS. Thus far, each licencee has had to create their own code in how to implement this feature. Sony does it one way, HandEra another, etc.

Does this mean that the next version of the TT will have virtual grafitti? Not necessarily. Palm SG has not been a big supporter of the virtual grafitti area. However, now that's it's supported by the OS, they may change their tune.

Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
dsamuilov @ 1/14/2003 10:21:46 AM #
Hey, great concept, but let me remind you that the Apple Newton had exactly what you are describing, only a couple of years earlier (around 1994). Of course the character recognition was not good at all, but you cannot compare the ARM specs the T|T has with the ARM-710 that the Newton had! I think Palm should try to license the old Newton char recognition software and improve that...

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Ben S @ 1/14/2003 11:41:25 AM #
I like it. Very Newtonian. :-)

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Tere @ 1/14/2003 12:57:05 PM #
I *LIKE* it! Nice work on the extra icons

As longtime user of ScreenWrite (and now Newpen) and
MagicText Hack (now select tap in PalmOS 3.5), there is
a minor problem I'd like to point out. Taps can be
ambiguous. Is it a punctuation tap, or a select tap?
ScreenWrite has an option to restrict punctuation taps
to the graffiti area. Newpen recognizes graffiti area
taps unambiguously as punctuation, and screen taps
default to select taps (you can set an option for this).
Newpen also defines an alternate punctuation stroke:
diagonal from LR to UL corner of the screen.

Another solution, which I like, is to provide a punct
tap target when the the graffiti area is colapsed. As
long as we are designing a new compact silkscreen area,
lets put one there.

I, for one, hope Palm does *not* do away enitrely with
the graffiti area. Even with Newpen, I still sometimes
use the graffiti area. If the screen has lots of
selectable fields, like a spreadsheet or data entry
form, I prefer to write in the graffiti area. So
virtural graffiti area, but not *no* graffiti area.

As to worries about screen wear, I recommend a screen
protector. I use Avery Super Heavy Duty Diamond Clear
Sheet Proectors. It doens't have that paper textured
feel, but they are *cheap* and durable. They are also
very clear, until they are scratched up, anyway.

If Palm does not make Graffiti II trainable or allow
replacable character sets, this may open a new area for
enhancements. I have a Graffiti recognizer add-on to my
Newton 2100. Someone *should* be able to make one for
PalmOS. Maybe Jeff Hawkins could create a trainable
recognizer enhancement and/or a tool for creating new
character sets.

- Tere

- Tere

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
nyates @ 1/14/2003 1:06:34 PM #
Actually the handwritting rec in Newton OS 2.x was very good. I would take that over any character rec program.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
JKingGrim @ 1/14/2003 2:39:58 PM #
To me, writing on te screen is still a little bit of a problem. Some games use the pen taps. Also, in a place like on the application launcher, where do you put the pen down?

RE: Tere has good points
Cheetah @ 1/14/2003 10:54:47 PM #
The prob with writing on the screen is there are times this acts as a command...for example selecting text.

On the note of virtual screen vs. the sample silk screen buttons, I think the only frequently used buttons used are Home and Search...the menu button can be done more simply by tapping the menu bar, and the calc is not that special, and can just be in the standard Main menu like all the other applications. Contrast can be in the standard System menu.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T? NAH!
Quinnblackwatch @ 1/15/2003 3:03:15 AM #
Great work on the pic! but to complete it why not share the middle between a keyboard launcher and a G2 writingbar-launcher?
that way you never have to worry about G2 popping up in a tap-based-game.

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Tere @ 1/15/2003 9:28:06 AM #
In reply to Cheetah.

There are hacks that make good use of the calc button beyond just bringing up the calculator. For
example, I use Insidious Calc. On any text entry field, I can write a simple ASMD expression and tap
the calc button and it Insidious Calc it, either appending or replacing the expression.

I think having the contrast one tap away is nice. Having to tap, pull down a menu and select would
be a bit more of a pain.

I had another thought. How would the new mini-silkscreen arrangement effect buttont to button strokes,
like for app/da launcher and XMSwitchSet? If these strokes are defined by start and end point, they
should still work.



- Tere

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
JKingGrim @ 1/16/2003 6:09:35 PM #
Oh, I get the concept, (although Jot does not do this), hit a button to toggle text entry.

Hey ignavia, try adding a D-Pad and Speaker, then send it to palm. =p

RE: Does this mean death of Tungsten T?
Marshall Flinkman @ 1/16/2003 9:32:42 PM #
Re the menu button vs. tapping the title bar--remember that not all programs (i.e. some games) show the title bar. There's got to be some sort of option for those, whether or not the alternative is easier.

Graffiti Emulation in PocketPC

jasonc @ 1/13/2003 1:47:09 PM #
If Palm dumps Graffiti for Jot, I wonder if Micro$oft will dump their Graffiti emulator as well? The "Graffiti Emulator" is the only means of text input I use on my PocketPC!

OS 5.1/5.1.2/5.2??

alanjrobertson @ 1/13/2003 5:11:14 PM #
Does anyone know when these OS updates will be available? An article at http://www.brighthand.com/article/Graffiti_Dead mentioned 5.2 - presumably all the OS updates will run on a T|T?

Cheers

Alan

RE: OS 5.1/5.1.2/5.2??
mashby @ 1/14/2003 9:04:18 AM #
This is all dependant upon if Palm SG releases 5.2 (for the TT) as an upgrade option. In the past, Palm has been very good about making new versions of the OS available for upgrade. Typically, you can purchase an upgrade for $30 - $40.

The implementation of Grafitti 2 as well as the bug fixes and support for virtual grafitti areas will probably appear first on new devices. For example the Tungsten W had support for Jot when it was announced back in September of last year. I would imagine that the TW will be running the latest build of the 4.x Palm OS.

The bottom line is that PalmSource has made this announcement and change, but it's up to the licensees to make it available to us. How soon and in what flavor has yet to be seen.

With any luck, one of the many fine 3rd party Palm OS developers will create be a Grafitti 1 hack/app and come to the resuce of hardcore Grafitti users.

Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com

Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer

unclejung @ 1/13/2003 6:12:25 PM #
I started out with the original Palm Pilot, moved to a Palm V, then a IPaq Pocket PC, and then a Tungsten.

The only thing I miss from the Pocket PC is its cursive handwriting recognition. The program was Calligrapher licensed to Microsoft under the name Transcriber. I write cursive on paper and I find it slow and unnatural to write character by character (Grafiti, Jot). Transcriber worked great for me and it is the only thing I truly miss from the PocketPC platform.

I wish there is something like Calligrapher for Palm OS.

Am I the only one here?

RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
stupidnewpolicy @ 1/14/2003 9:19:34 AM #
I'd say so - I haven't written in cursive since I hit high school. Even my signature isn't in cursive.

ICK!


Ick

RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
sford @ 1/14/2003 1:01:37 PM #
I agree. A true cursive recognizer would be my preference. I don't "naturally" write printed characters, only on my Palm devices.

RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
dgalvin @ 1/14/2003 1:05:24 PM #
I would think that a cursive handwriting recognizer would be difficult to implement. With cursive writing, you rarely lift your pen off the paper, so it would be hard for the software to know when one character ended and another began.

In addition, cursive writing is a continous, left-to-right process. With the limited space on a PDA screen, you would need to be lifting your stylus and starting from the left again -- thereby eliminating the advantage of cursive in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.

RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
JKingGrim @ 1/14/2003 2:50:55 PM #
>>you rarely lift your pen off the paper, so it would
>>be hard for the software to know when one character
>>ended and another began.

Well, supposedly PPC did it, didn't they?

RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
Altema @ 1/14/2003 4:52:29 PM #
Yes they did do it for PPC. It works pretty well most of the time, even if we could not convince it that my name was not "Pail".

It would be a good option to have and would probably be quicker than lifting the stylus between every characer. We can't use the excuse of "not enough processor" now... they don't make too many 16Mhz devices anymore.

RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
LarryGarfield @ 1/14/2003 5:26:12 PM #
Try writing a word longer than about 5 characters. Every time I try that with Transcriber on a PPC, I run into the edge of the screen and spend the next 15 minutes trying to turn several partial words into one. It's a real pain in the ass.

--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA
RE: Why not a cursive handwriting recognizer
JKingGrim @ 1/14/2003 6:23:53 PM #
Well, I can't say you are wrong, because I have never tried it, but even if you have to fragment words, it still is less strokes.

RE: cursive in various software rec software
Cheetah @ 1/14/2003 11:06:32 PM #
Calligrapher that is used on PPC has been constantly improved. They just released a new version recently.

There is no reason that Palm couldn't offer Calligrapher for Palm as an option. In PPC they offer at least 3 different types of character recognition...jot, graffitti clone, and Calligrapher. You can choose which one you like or can switch back and forth.

Apple's Newton was a cursive AND a roman character recognizer. You could write in either and it would figure out which style you were writing in. You could also pre-set how you wrote a particular letter so the recognition for that letter would be improved. For example you could set your t to have a slant, or to have a little tail at the bottom or to just be straight up.

However the best thing about Newton's recognition is you could write across the screen in a very natural way, rather than write letters on the same space. I think this is what makes most writing recognition software hard to use. You basically have to write letters on top of each other which is very unnatural. Newton didn't require this.

One problem however is the small size of the Palm screen. The Newton screen was quite alot bigger than the Palm screen so you could write several words across the Newton screen.

I also liked that you could scratch out a word and it would be erased with a puff of smoke. Cute but also a nice "trick" from a marketing point of view. Everyone always loved that feature.


Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.

mtt @ 1/13/2003 6:47:13 PM #
If CIC & PalmSource were to build some trainability into Graffit 2, then you could teach it to recognize your way of writing- if that way happened to be traditional graffiti, so be it. Nothin Xerox could do about that... Furthermore, make it so you could load .pdb databases of new types of handwriting, and then you could download asian charactors, thumbscript, traditional graffiti, etc. and have really the ultimate pen input system.

MTT
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
twizza @ 1/13/2003 9:37:16 PM #
that final part of your post which talked about being able to download and install different character sets would be great for PalmSource to jump onto. It would surley make it easier to have different devices for different countries.

RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
hkklife @ 1/13/2003 9:51:44 PM #
I am starting to get so sick of (not a knock against PIC, Ryan!) opening PIC to see what's new and having the headlines be either another Sony of ballooning size and price or another misstep by Palm/Palmsource. Sigh.

I agree that having the ability to download "packs" of different Grafitti 2 character sets, but Palm's usual incompetence and bungled decisions make this very unlikely to happen. Two months ago, I was a huge T|T fan. Now I sit here fuming over the lack of decent support to configure a simple shared internet connection via Bluetooth, the hollow promises of the mp3 player/Real spyware that may never come out, the low-pass filter bug, and now the whole Grafitti/Jot issue.

I might just end up selling all of my Palm stuff and using my cell phone's built in address book and calendar. I'll carry one of the new backlit Gameboys in the pocket where I carried a Palm for 4+ years ;-)



RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
Fernando @ 1/13/2003 11:55:25 PM #
i'm gonna have to agree on that one... with the rate that the quality of palm products are deteriorating, one might as well go to pocket pc. I'm largely frustrated at how horrible palm has been with respect ot it's latest devices. They can't complete a job that they start. For instance the m505 hotsync issue wasn't resolved for more than a year (correct me if i'm wrong). The issue with the m130 being advertised with the incorrect number of colours. and as of late their first device to support mp3, that doesn't play mp3! This is a slap in the face for us palm loyalists. I was considering buying a tungsten t, but i'd like an palm device that plays mp3's BEFORE i need to replace it again. So as it stands my next purchase will be a dell... shrugs.....
RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
hkklife @ 1/14/2003 12:54:52 AM #
Here's a question and comment for the really long-time users of the platform:

I didn't follow the Palm OS news scene prior to 2000 very closely, even though I used a Pilot 1000/Pilot Pro/IIIe before my Vx.

Were there a lot of missteps/mishandlings/false promises by Palm back in the previous century--that is, the first 4 years or so that Palms were on the market? The only one I can possibly think of was the much vaunted but never capitalized upon "expansion slot" of the IIIx.

I mean, it seems that starting with the release of the Palm VII and its less than impressive feature set, each new generation of Palm devices has created possibly more controversy/disaoppointment than acclaim. The m505 was panned from day one, but the Tungsten T seems to gaining critics at an alarming rate as of late.

Have the expectations of Palm users been raised drastically in the past few years of PPC's increased marketshare or is Palm just losing their touch, so to speak? I'd assume it's a combination of both.

My essential feelings as to the loss of "original" Graffiti are analogous to arriving at college and being told I had to take all tests in blue ink-no pencils allowed!

RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
mashby @ 1/14/2003 9:15:25 AM #
hkklife,

I don't think Palm has failed to deliver on promises that it's made in the past. The "expansion slot" that the IIIx had was never capitalized by 3rd party hardware developers is all. I don't think Palm had any plans to create accessories using that slot. I think they were relying on 3rd parties to use it. However, this slot really wasn't much different than the original memory slot and 3rd party developers didn't really jump on it even back then. The only company that DID make products that supported it was HandEra (http://www.handera.com).

That being said, most feel that Palm has made a few mis-steps in the past few years. The m505 is one of the products that really didn't receive much praise. IMHO, the release of the Tungsten T is a step in the right direction. This is the first "home run" that Palm has had since the Palm V and it looks to be doing quite well.

I hope that this marks a new Renaissance for Palm SG and that they continue to "knock them out of the park."


Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com

RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
Bytter @ 1/14/2003 11:59:55 AM #
Sorry, but....

Is it that difficult to release a correction for the Low-Pass Bug?!?! One Bug?! A tiny thing!? Pleaseee...

By the way, isn't it possible for some of us to make that correction by our-selves? I'm not a Palm Hacker, but, couldn't it be possible?!

Or...... Is it really true this is a Software BUG? ;)

I would trust palm 1 or 2 months ago. Not now, really. They seem to have only one thing in their heads: and that is money!!!!

Call whatever you want, but the things that are happening with the T|T have one name: false publicity! They don't want this to happen? They don't want complain to raise? Then they should be doing something, don't you think?

Yeah, I owed a palm III, IIIx, IIIc and now the T|T. Better was to pay 1/2 of the price, and get myself an m505...

Cheers ppl!

RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
sford @ 1/14/2003 1:07:07 PM #
You know, I have to agree with the sentiments here. I've owned/used a Pilot Pro, III, IIIe, IIIc, VII, VIIx, m505, Clie NR70V, and now a Clie NX60 (camera turned out to be no more than a party favor after a while). From Pilot Pro to the III series was a giant leap. The IIIc, for its time, was a giant leap. The *concept* of the VII series was a giant leap as well. But everything else in between, including the m505 which should have just been the m515 to begin with, were all small steps. It seems like coming up with marginal...changes, really, not necessarily improvements...frequently, is more important than taking a bit of time to come up with truly improved products. I prob'ly don't really understand these things, but is this market so cut-throat that to not have something "new" for a good year or so would cut one completely out of the running? It seems to me that these small steps are causing more harm than good, anyway. Palm is known. If they take a year, or even two , "off" from coming out with drivel and "wow" us with something truly evolved, they're back on top. I mean, let's face it: who here, if Handera suddenly announced something truly amazing after all this time, would just blow them off cuz it had been a while?! Does anyone here buy a new and "improved" car every few months, or even every year??

Ditto Sony. What is up with this NZ?? If I wanted a shrunken laptop, I'd get a smaller convertible Tablet PC! I'll be sticking with my NX (love it, btw!!!).

Hey PDA makers: When we, the people, are spending between $200 and $600 (ouch!) per device, we want fewer small steps, more giant leaps! Oh, and quit pandering to the "low-end users" you keep trying to convert. We power users are the best marketing you have! Besides, how are those Zire sales figures looking, anyway?

All IMHO. :)

RE: Make Graffiti 2 customizable, then everybody is happy.
LarryGarfield @ 1/14/2003 5:28:13 PM #
Actually from what I've heard the Zire is selling quite well.

As for customizable handwriting characters, try out the OpenZaurus distribution for the Sharp Zaurus. The default character set is Jot-like, but it's fully customizable and you can download additional character sets. There's even a nice pre-packaged Graffiti one available, takes about 10 seconds to download and install.

http://www.openzaurus.org/

--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

RE: Newton's letters was customizable
Cheetah @ 1/14/2003 11:18:30 PM #
I wrote this above, but Apple's Newton allowed you to pre-set how you wrote a particular letter so the recognition for that letter would be improved. For example you could set your t to have a slant, or to have a little tail at the bottom or to just be straight up.

Apple still owns the technology for Newton's hand writing software and may be incorporating it into their OS, to be used on writing pads. It could be modified to work on a Palm probably as long as it was not to processor dependent.

Unused expansion slots and blue ink
Dan Harkless @ 1/18/2003 7:35:17 AM #
hkklife writes:

"The only one I can possibly think of was the much vaunted but never capitalized upon 'expansion slot' of the IIIx."

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. Kind of the same situation as the mysterious "mezzanine" slot on the rev. A iMacs...

"My essential feelings as to the loss of 'original' Graffiti are analogous to arriving at college and being told I had to take all tests in blue ink-no pencils allowed!"

Wild! What college was it that made this oddly draconian edict?

New Tungsten Palm...

ScottP @ 1/14/2003 4:43:27 AM #
"...Grafitti II later this year on a upcoming device running Palm OS 5.1.2."

Anyone know what this device may be like... or when we'll be seeing it? Could influence my purchasing of a Tungsten|T.

RE: New Tungsten Palm...
Altema @ 1/14/2003 4:33:53 PM #
Yes, but I can't disclose any details. I will say that it's a significant upgrade... good enough to change my upgrade plans completely. Already thinking about what to do with my beloved M515.

Jot is too much american handwriting oriented

redmax @ 1/14/2003 11:33:42 AM #
My opinon is that Jot is too much oriented to american handwriting. In my country (Italy) the handwriting is a little bit different and using Jot (or the PocketPC recognizer) is difficult (especially with some letters).

Graffiti is too much different from handwriting and, by this, is more difficult to make confusion.

I hope that Palm will modify Jot to make it more simple for non american people (indipendently from the OS language: I want to use English PalmOS but with an Italian recognizer).

Just my two cents.

RE: Jot is too much american handwriting oriented
Dan Harkless @ 1/18/2003 7:44:43 AM #
Someone else made this comment as well, redmax. Now I'm curious -- can you give some examples?

Is this an early April Fool's joke

Louis Berk @ 1/14/2003 1:02:34 PM #
It's a horrible idea - I've been using Graffiti on Palms since they were introduced (I can't even remember if that was in 1995 or 1996?). I've tried other pen writing systems - like on the early CE Palmtops and the recent Pocket PCs and my brain cannot adapt. They have got to make it backwards compatible or I think it will be a serious nail in their coffin!


RE: Is this an early April Fool's joke
amike @ 1/15/2003 2:09:10 AM #
I'm agree...
I used JOT for two months... Great ! Until I have again the same problems. Because of the bad position of my palm in my hand (lightning conditions, pen...). When solved, I went back to Graffiti, speeder....

Vote for Graffiti

jackl @ 1/14/2003 2:09:54 PM #
I've used a Palm device everyday in my law practice since firing up my Palm III a little over three years ago. Now that I have a T|T with a fast processor, I presume that the additional overhead of the "Jot" processor won't slow things down too much anymore...

But I'm going to be *very* unhappy if this Jot "enhancement" will not allow me to program in Graffiti as their current keystrokes, or if Jot makes me either have to unlearn Graffiti to learn someting else (like grade school cursive, yuck!) or slows me down with multi-stroke characters where one stroke suffices today...

This upsets me a lot more than the fact that the mp3 playing is flawed. I've already learned that if you want a digital camera or mp3 player or GPS device, buy a standalone device because it's going to work a hell of a lot better than a 'swiss knife' handheld.

I hope Palm is listening!


J

RE: Vote for Graffiti
jackl @ 1/14/2003 2:18:14 PM #
Whoops, I should have said "4 years ago"...I saw my first Palm in the summer of '98 and began using my new Palm III in 1/99.

J

I *HATE* Jot!

mikecane @ 1/14/2003 4:15:54 PM #
Too bad I didn't forsee this development in my Predictions piece (who did?!)... but JOT?!!?

I loathe Jot. I will reserve my final disgust and contempt for when I can actually see the character shapes.

But This Is Not Good.

It seems -- how hilariously ironic! -- that the ONLY people who will have Classic Graffiti are POCKET PC OWNERS!

Way to go PalmSource... duh!

RE: I *HATE* Jot!
Spell @ 1/14/2003 4:36:01 PM #
I, too, hate Jot. I also hate the currently available built-in keyboards despite my tiny thumbs. It took me approximately 10 minutes to learn Graffiti, so I never understood why the newbies complained about its complexities. For years, I was content to let the debate and the third-party add-ons go on without me. But now... I HATE Jot!

All of this leads me to a horrible, shameful confession. After long years of inwardly rolling my eyes or chuckling at those die-hard, clinging-to-the-last-scrap Newton users ... looks like I'm in danger of joining their ranks, clinging desperately to my current, Graffiti-using machine.

Humble pie tastes terrible.

RE: I *HATE* Jot!
Altema @ 1/14/2003 4:46:02 PM #
Aww, come on Mike... it can't be THAT bad! The character set IS closer to the real english alphabet, even if it requires more complicated strokes to make the same letters as Graffiti :)

You do have the option to select between Jot and Graffiti in the current version, but that will probably change.

RE: I *HATE* Jot!
JKingGrim @ 1/14/2003 6:26:17 PM #
I not sure if I hate Jot entirely, but I hate many things about it. For starters, I HATE multi stroke letters. If you dont stroke soon enough, it doesn't work.

Hey Palm or PalmSource, listen up. Sue PPC and use the money to buy the patent from Xerox!

RE: I *HATE* Jot!
amike @ 1/15/2003 2:13:22 AM #
Graffiti has INTRINSEC qualities !!!!

Stop with that "true handwriting". Non sense !

Actually, we do speak of "human reading writing".
But a PDA is a computer and it don't care of the policy..



RE: I *HATE* Jot!
mashby @ 1/15/2003 10:07:16 AM #
Hopefully a 3rd party will come to rescue with a Grafitti 1 app that will keep you from being forced to use Jot. :)

But remember, this only applies to new devices and each licensee will implement the new revs of the Palm OS over time. So, I would expect that over the next year we'll see both Grafitti 1 and Grafitti 2 devices released over 2003.

Although the announcement is a bit of a shock, I think that in the end, we'll see everything iron out and everyone happy with their options. New users will have Jot and hard core Grafitti users will have Grafitti 1 as an add-on.

Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com

RE: I *HATE* Jot!
mikecane @ 1/16/2003 12:25:23 PM #
I detest, despise, and loathe Jot!

I have NEVER been able to get it to recognize a T the way it wants it written -- two strokes. A pox and a pestilence on it. I tried it way back when I had my Palm III, grabbed it a day or so after it was announced for PalmOS (it had previously only been available for, cough, "Palm-size PCs"), and dumped it the same day.

OTOH, if this "enhanced" version has a mode where I can tell it, "Look, I write THIS and you put out THIS letter" -- well, I'd just switch every damned letter to GRAFFITI format!

But then, there's still the matter of the dot-prefixed "letters" -- . , ; et al...

AAR, *some* company is going to wind up cleaning up by selling Classic Graffiti as software... "Graffiti by Xerox"? Hah!

Broad-based?

TobyG @ 1/14/2003 8:21:16 PM #
How can there be broad-based support for a software add-on when Palmsource was just claiming that there wasn't any software installed on more than 10% of devices? They must be getting dizzy by now.

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown
Give em a break
xolstis @ 1/14/2003 11:31:19 PM #
Give the guys at palm a break guys, Think the T|T was a pretty neat device though I must agree that the m505-515 was a next to nothing update. Also tend to notice people hitting out at palm as if it were a single entity attributing both hardware and software issues to Palm. Which Palm? PalmSource is now independant of Palm(Hardware) and this may be why some of the issues are being resolved more slowly.

Palm wouldn't do away with graffiti, one of the main reasons for the success of the original PalmPilot IMHo if they didn't have to. Seeing that they don't have a choice now, they have just gone on to the next viable option. Been a user of graffiti for the first 1/2 year after getting my Visor Prism and switched to jot after and it was pretty allright. I know of course its a matter of personal preferences but I think Palm knew their strengths, if they didn't haf to do away with graffiti, they wud just leave it as it was and people who prefered JOT could go get JOT themselves as a 3rd party add in. But the thing is they can't!

xolstis

Clear up
xolstis @ 1/14/2003 11:39:44 PM #
Just to make myself clear:
Know that it is Palm's(hardware) job to iron out software issues in the T|T and not PalmSource who just does the OS, but what I am saying is it may not be as easy as it was before now that they are sepearate entitities

xolstis
RE: Broad-based?
TobyG @ 1/15/2003 9:27:42 AM #
Um...I'm not sure if you intended to reply to me as you did, but I didn't mention Palm Solutions Group at all.

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

GOD NO!!!

GoldenTiger @ 1/15/2003 1:19:17 AM #
Do you think someone will make software to let us use Graffiti?? I couldn't stand having to use JOT! It's so much slower and less accurate, and I have horrible handwriting which Graffiti recognizes fine while Jot comes out with jibberish!

RE: GOD NO!!!
mashby @ 1/15/2003 10:13:47 AM #
Given the outcry of hardcore Grafitti users, I think a 3rd party developer will offer a Grafitti 1 application. It would be a huge feather in his/her cap to create one.

That being said, if you haven't tried Jot, I encourage you to at least give it a shot (https://secure.cic.com/demo/). For the average user, it's not that big of a transition and in some ways is kind of nice. I've been using it for a little while and I'm starting to get used to it.

Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com

RE: GOD NO!!!
Dan Harkless @ 1/18/2003 8:11:55 AM #
Even if a developer does come out with such software, they may get shut down by Xerox or Palm themselves.

RE: GOD NO!!!
tnichols @ 2/12/2004 11:24:15 AM #
Beware!! If you have Graffiti 1, don't mess up a good thing. I had my Kyocera 7135 pda phone replaced after a technical problem and the new model came with Graffiti 2. Graffiti 2 is so hard to use while trying to navigate the address book that I give up and scroll down through 1 or 2 hundred addresses to get to the k's or t's. I just cannot make these letters. This new version has ruined my wonderful kyocera telephone. It also only took me minutes to learn graffiti 1. I've now given up on graffiti 2.

If anyone knows how to revert to graffiti 1, where I can buy a copy or where I can buy a bootleg version, please let me know.

Death of silkscreened graffiti area

quiklogin @ 1/15/2003 4:37:29 AM #
Whatever else this means, I do hope it means the death of the silkscreened graffiti area!

I want lots of screen real estate and a color screen, like on the Sony NX-series, but also on a unit that I can use with an external full-size keyboard (Palm Ultra-thin Portable, for example).

So if all future Palm units have virtual graffiti, then I'm all for it (even if it means unlearning graffiti, which I learned back in 1997)!

Jot and Bugme - Jot and backlight, clock icon

tsinvest @ 1/15/2003 1:52:23 PM #
It would be great if they fix Jot to work with BugMe (it currently won't on the TT) and they also need to fix the fact that when Jot is active the backlight icon and the clock icon will not respond to any taps.

Regards, Tom S.

Jot missing characters

andyi @ 1/15/2003 4:36:36 PM #
I just downloaded my demo copy of Jot and a few things jumped out at me. Can anyone tell me if these observations are incorrect? Can you find other Jot issues?

1) There is no "left arrow" or "right arrow" character. That is, there is no way to move the cursor over one character in either direction. This is especially concerning to me because I can't always tap on the left most spot on a line. I often have to "left arrow" one or two times.

2) The "two stroke" characters, such as the "t", don't always work in applications that implement "Look Up:" like the built-in Address book. For example, if your address book has (only) the records: Irwin, Sand, Stephanik, and Thomas and you enter "st" (using the two stroke 't') in the "Look Up" field, it won't find "Stephanic" but rather "Thomas". The problem is that Jot attempts to delete the intermediate character that was already deleted by "Look Up:".

RE: Jot missing characters
mashby @ 1/15/2003 6:57:26 PM #
With the default version of Jot, I'm afraid that you're correct. Sorry.

However, we haven't seen the implmentation that PalmSource has included in the OS. Plus keep in mind that each licensee may make slight modifications as well. Until we see an actual device all we can do is guess.

Regarding the command strokes, you're right that some of them will not work. For example any command stroke using "i" will no longer function properly since the letter "i" is now a double-stroke character. The developer would have to modify their software to support the new character stroke. It's not the end of the world, but there will be a transition period.

Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com

RE: Jot missing characters
plaid @ 1/16/2003 1:09:38 PM #
I haven't seen anyone mention this, but Jot does allow you to tune some of the characters, for example you can select it to recognize a single downstroke as an i instead of an L. Then you just have to use a normal L stroke like you currently do in graffiti to get an L. You can also have it do a T just like graffiti, only it makes it harder to do an apostrophe '

RE: Jot missing characters
mashby @ 1/16/2003 6:39:23 PM #
At this point, it's unclear if the PalmSource version of Jot (aka Graffiti 2) will support that feature or not. On top of that, the Licensee has some control over that as well and may decide to implement it, even if PalmSource does not.

Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com
RE: Jot missing characters
TobyG @ 1/17/2003 9:16:20 AM #
Download the OS 5.2 simulator and see for yourself.

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown
RE: Jot missing characters
mashby @ 1/17/2003 1:57:49 PM #
I did try it, but as a simulator it's hard to get a good "feel" for it.

On top of that, each licensee could implement more features. The PalmSource version is the baseline.

Michael T. Ashby
Director
InterPUG
http://www.interpug.com

Download the Palm Simulator from www.palmsource.com

acquiessense @ 1/15/2003 5:39:53 PM #
This uses the latest version Of PalmOS and you can try out the new graffiti 2 as it will run.

I have tried it, and i am impressed. There is a bit of unlearning and learning to do but i do think that the system works far better.

Recognition of shapes with a mouse was spot on. And the fact that you can write capital letters without doing the shift strok has got to be worth it.

Try it and see.

RE: Download the Palm Simulator from www.palmsource.com
TobyG @ 1/16/2003 1:21:52 PM #
Tried it. No onscreen support in the default config, as well as extremely small customization capability. That being said, only 4 or 5 letter changes. NewPen works with it to an extent, but since it doesn't handle multiple stroke characters (yet?), it doesn't recognize everything. Punctuation is going to be the biggest thing to relearn.

"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown

Last Palm I will buy

Bink @ 1/15/2003 6:33:40 PM #
Hi,

I am really disappointed by the news about Graffiti 2 and Jot. I like the one stroke system and after my 3rd Palm (the III) is about to die, I tried a Pocket PC (Toshiba E335), but the deal breaker was the recognition software - I tried transcriber and block, and on a side by side basis, my Palm accuracy was 99%, my Pocket PC accuracy was not even 50%.

Grafitti is one of the best things about Palm, and to the extent this reduces differentiation with Pocket PC, I think it will be the death knell for Palm.

I am now shopping for my next Palm, as long as it has Grafitti!

RE: Last Palm I will buy
helf @ 1/17/2003 11:56:27 AM #
dude.. It's not that bad.. I just tried it out and I was abel to write almost every character the old graffiti way and it recognized them fine.. This won't take much getting used too and I'm usre some 3rd party developer will comoe out with something that'll let you use the old graffiti.

RE: Last Palm I will buy
tnichols @ 2/12/2004 11:36:57 AM #
Your wrong, It't BAD! I never had a problem with Graffiti 1, but I have to try over and over to get graffiti 2 to recognise a t and the k is even worse. I get lf or even lk. Why bother, it's BAD!

Why does this eliminate grafitti area?

SaabCaptain @ 1/17/2003 3:13:26 PM #
Some have said this will be the impetus to finally eliminate the hard grafitti area. Why? Although the OS will have support for a virtual area it doesn't change the advantages of having a dedicated 100% of the time available hard area in which to write characters like on the Tungsten T. The savings in battery life etc. at this point in time are worth it, as is the continued ease of use in not having to open, close, refresh the screen etc. problems of a virtual area. Thoughts?

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, TUNGSTEN T!!

Jot ain't that great

stan98 @ 1/17/2003 8:41:44 PM #
Just about a year ago Jot was one of the worst products to have on your Palm. Spurious crashes all over the place. It took us a long time to figure out where they came from, since Jot does not appear to be a Hack to the user. Once we had it nailed down, we just made a template for customer support telling them to disable the software. Reports poured in of people thanking us, because all the other problems had gone away, too.
CIC did not at that time have any customer support - in fact it appeared the company was based in India and had difficulties with English language support. Couple of months later they released a patch which they do about every 2 years or so, and that seemed to work with some 4.0 devices. So we rewrote our customer support template to tell people about that after we had tested it. These bunch are just jerks and I am personally really disappointed that they got this contract.
What is repeatedly mentioned as research in length was nothing else but a couple of poor programmers chained to a Windows box with the command to come up with something derived of Grafitti that would be applicable to WindowsCE and rewrite it in such a way that people will have a tough time to sue. Steal where you can - don't worry about Palm. We'll find somebody to make it Palm for $500.00 if we feel it can be sold. CIC is the bottom of the pit and should not even be rewarded. The programmers aren't.
The changes the image of the company went through recently are wisely orchestrated and some new money has been found. It is all facade. As a Palm programmer I feel disgusted that Palm associates itself with CIC.

YIIY -

Favorite Input system? A poll of sorts

donaldekelly @ 2/21/2003 10:02:15 AM #
What is your favorite means of input (not including a keyboard that requires a desk)? I mean - you are standing out on the street and a friend comes up to you and wants to give you his address and phone number.
I think the stowaway/think outside/palm keyboards are very popular - but not helpful in this scenario.

Grafiti? Jot? New pen? The text thing - instant text? Fitaly?

Personally I stopped using grafiti after about a few weeks - too slow and labor intensive. I use Fitaly which works pretty well. But maybe there is something better?

Thanks

someone tell me how to add a picture, then I will really scare you all!

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