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Comments on: Rumor: New Zire and Tungsten Models

PIC has received multiple reports on possible new models from the Palm Solutions Group. The new rumors confirm some information from previous sources and reveal additional specs.
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No more puny screens, please!

Puck @ 3/24/2003 12:47:02 PM #
Any rumors on display size?

Puck
RE: No more puny screens, please!
Puck @ 3/24/2003 1:01:40 PM #
...on the Zire, that is.

Puck
RE: No more puny screens, please!
Admin @ 3/24/2003 1:09:03 PM #
The T|C may have a 320x320 screen, I don't have any info on the new zire resolution.
RE: No more puny screens, please!
Foo Fighter @ 3/24/2003 1:25:05 PM #
Wonder if this will FINALLY feature a Transflective LCD? Palm has to fallow the rest of the PDA industry, and reflective screens just don't measure up anymore.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs
RE: No more puny screens, please!
rsc1000 @ 3/24/2003 3:34:08 PM #
>>Wonder if this will FINALLY feature a Transflective LCD? Palm has to fallow the rest of the PDA industry, and reflective screens just don't measure up anymore.

True - i was just staring at the ipaq 5450 a few minutes ago and the brightness of the screen really stands out. however soemthing else stood out as well: i was amazed how - after using nothing but the tungsten t for the last few weeks - the ipaq display suddenly looked really grainny. This is the same experience i had when i went back to using a palm m505 after having used an ipaq for a month. ahhh relativity. my point? aside from the slight increase in quality with brightness and colour saturation - that 320x320 T|T screen is still better because its as good as a reflective screen can get AND has higher res than on the PPC. Of course - as yr saying - what we want is both worlds - transflective + 320x320.

RE: No more puny screens, please!
greentruck15 @ 3/24/2003 3:43:36 PM #
all the new palms have TFT screens

RE: No more puny screens, please!
Foo Fighter @ 3/24/2003 3:59:18 PM #
No, the reason why the iPaq screen looked "Grainy" to you is because it has a lower screen resolution, not because it is Transflective. Look at the Sony TG50 or NX60 next your TT...there is no comparison. I've noticed this with my Axim as well. Compared to my friends NX60 it looks pixelated.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs
RE: No more puny screens, please!
yukong @ 3/24/2003 5:21:37 PM #
From reading the specs on the TW and the TT, it appears that the TW form factor is the size of the TT when the TT slider is extended. The TT closed is 4 inches long, and open it is 4.8. The TW is 4.8. Minimal width and thickness differences. However, I am not a big fan of the thumb boards. I used one some with my m515, and I hated it. I could enter text a lot faster with graffiti than I could the thumb board. Just my preference I guess, but I am not interested in anything with a thumb board. And the form factor size difference is enough to slow me down. It may not seem like much, but nearly one inch longer is a big difference when carrying my palm in my shirt of suit pocket. Now if they would do a TT2 or TTII, something like that with the form factor of the TT with the slide, and bluetooth and Wifi, and 32 or more meg, then I'm there. But not the thumb board larger form factor. As to the screen issue, transflective v. reflective, I am torn. I like the slightly better resolution and color depth of the transflective screens indoors. But I don't like how they do outside. The reflective seem so much better outdoors and in bright light. I use my palm a lot in the car when traveling, and in the bright light is looks so much better.

RE: No more puny screens, please!
kidA @ 3/24/2003 7:11:44 PM #
FYI screen resolution has nothing to do with transflective versus reflective. the difference is in the overall brightnesss of the screen and the color vibrance and saturation. i agree that transflective screens are far worse in sunlight than reflective, but other than that, it's all advantages: brighter, better color saturation, and the biggie--no freakin' dust under the screen! plus they aren't really that bad outside, just not great like reflective displays.

RE: No more puny screens, please!
Timothy Rapson @ 3/25/2003 12:56:25 PM #
RSC: *I* could tell you were not thinking the QVGA Ipaq screens were grainy because they were transflective, but because they were medium resolution.

". Of course - as yr saying - what we want is both worlds - transflective + 320x320."


I have been really dreaming of a 320 by 480 transflective that is as bright and colorful as the new Ipaqs, but as smooth as the Clies.

Now, I don't know. I use a Clie. I am pretty sure it is merely reflective as it is nowhere near as bright as the newer Ipaqs. The very latest, the NZ is a lot brighter, but I don't know if they just boosted the backlight or went transflective. But, I can barely use it out of doors now. Taking pictures can be a real crap shoot. I could not go with anything less capable outside, so maybe I should forego the transflective.

As it is, I so agree with you on the matter of what one gets used to.

I could have been perfectly happy with a 320 by 240 before I got my NR. No more. I am just too used to the smoothness to go back. As long as I don't gaze too long at those bright, bright Ipaq screens, I am very happy with my Clie. Even at it's worse, it is always easilly viewable. Something you can't say about all PDAs. There were times when my Mono Ipaq simply needed it to be darker in the room with the backlight turned on or much lighter in the room with no backlight. In church was the worse, a good amount of ambient light, but the light was so far away and indirect I could not get the Ipaq at any angle that made it readable.

I never have that problem with the NR.

As always, your mileage may vary and make sure you try it out before you plunk down your hardearned bucks.


RE: No more puny screens, please!
masitti @ 3/26/2003 11:26:46 PM #
There are reflective screens with no dust. It doesn't matter what type of screen it is.

------------------------
Mario Masitti
http://community.webshots.com/user/mariowc

I believe about the rumor of new Zire

dhchung @ 3/24/2003 12:57:30 PM #
Think about iPaq H1910 and Dell's $199 PDA. Palm really should sell a smiliar product at a similar price. What they have currently is m130/m515 which can't really compete with PPC. (not even sony's SJ30/SJ22) It is reasonable that a new mid range Palm model appear on the market.

RE: I believe about the rumor of new Zire
twalk @ 3/24/2003 3:54:47 PM #
Palm really needs 2 color devices in that price range. One cheap PDA at $150 to undercut pricewise all the color PPC PDAs, and another at $250 with arm and a hires screen. (Note to Palm marketing people: this is called "bracketing", and it's often very effective for market leaders...)

RE: I believe about the rumor of new Zire
kidA @ 3/24/2003 4:56:25 PM #
i don't know that $150 is really possible. but a color device like the rumored zire, but w/o the camera would easily come in at $200 to $250. but to sell, it needs to have a hi res screen.

RE: I believe about the rumor of new Zire
twalk @ 3/24/2003 5:09:52 PM #
A $150 color Zire with a 160x160 display is definitely possible. The difference in screen cost would amount to $30-$40, and everything else would be mostly the same, so the profit margin would be less, but the absolute dollar profit per device would be roughly the same.

Put 4M on it, and make the usb port work with keyboards and usb flash drives, and you've got a winner.

With this low end device, Palm wouldn't have to meet a $200 price point for the higher end one. They could make something cut down like the sj22, but with an arm processor, and charge $50 more than the $200 that sony does.


RE: I believe about the rumor of new Zire
graph @ 3/24/2003 6:45:57 PM #
I wish they added the cam to a highend model and not the zire, or i wish zire isnt such a lowend model and they wont cut features.

too bad the tungsten C doesnt have BT.

RE: I believe about the rumor of new Zire
kidA @ 3/25/2003 1:09:15 AM #
no one ever said that Zire was necessarily low end or that Tungsten was necessarily high end. so far it's just played out that way. Zire is the consumer line, Tungsten is the corporate professional/business oriented line. The differences end there. Tungstens will probably always come with business software like DtG and whatnot, while I wouldn't expect Palm to include it with the Zire, although it would be nice. The rumored Zire is projected at $299, certainly more mid-range in today's market than low end.

RE: I believe about the rumor of new Zire
graph @ 3/26/2003 3:54:39 AM #
Do you think its possible to have mp3 and voice rec on that $299 budget given it already has cam. if it has those 3 plus 320x320 then its the device for me.

Tungsten C could be cool

MV-Jon @ 3/24/2003 1:22:06 PM #
Sounds like the T|C could be a cool new Palm to own. Only thing I am mixed on is the Graffiti 2. I don't really want to have to relearn :)

Any word on expansion ports? Same as T|T perhaps?

--Jon

RE: Tungsten C could be cool
hkklife @ 3/24/2003 3:10:36 PM #
I'd really like to see a refreshed version of the T|T. Like the "T|Tx" or "T|T2| or whatnot. 32 mb ram, improved battery life, and all of the bugs and audio problems squashed. It's make a pretty capable mid-range handheld unit IMHO.

If not, then there's still quite a bit of life left in the classic V/m500 formfactor, and Palm would be quite foolish to discard something that is to many *the* classic representation of a modern PDA. The T|T is nice, but I get aggrivated by the slider and am always bumping the voice recorder button by accident. Brighthand's recent editorial said it best last week when the author claimed there was only one "safe" side on the T|T (devoid of buttons, connectors, slots etc).

I can live with either a buggy half-baked OS or a handheld with some ergnomic issues, but a heaping of both can get very tiresome after a while.

RE: Tungsten C could be cool
IanJD @ 3/24/2003 8:16:34 PM #
"I'd really like to see a refreshed version of the T|T. Like the "T|Tx" or "T|T2| or whatnot. 32 mb ram, improved battery life..."

I'd plonk down money for a slightly higher spec son of T|T; more memory, better battery life, maybe another SD slot, maybe removing that slider and making it fixed in the closed form for a smaller size (since 5.2 should remove the need for a hard graffiti area).

RE: Tungsten C could be cool
Keithos! @ 3/24/2003 8:57:25 PM #
I like the idea of getting rid of the sliding Grafitti area myself. Without that, a new T|T could probably be thinner too...
RE: Tungsten C could be cool
SQLDba @ 3/24/2003 10:57:17 PM #
Not sure where you are getting the improved battery life. In fact, one of my worries is that the battery life on this will be worse. Remember, the wireless component is a radio that receives and transmits - that takes juice - and for it to have any range it's going to need more juice than the BT transciever on the T|T. Now, of course, you can always turn it off when not in use but still.... I would be interested in seeing what happens to the battery life on an NX when they put the wi-fi card in.

I also hope that Palm moves the navigator pad to the top of the keyboard - although I doubt it. I have played around a bit with the W and I really find that the unit is harder to use with the pad below the keyboard. Maybe it's just me.

RE: Tungsten C could be cool
hkklife @ 3/24/2003 11:30:00 PM #
Heh, no I meant just improved battery life for the "refreshed" T|T (assumg there will ever be one). Perhaps if the sliding mechanism were omitted, the weight and room saved would enable a larger battery...which would be useful to offset the increased power consumption of the additional ram and backlit Graffiti area (my honest to goodnesss #1 wish on any new PDA w/ a fixed Graffiti area).

I do not doubt that a Tungsten Palm with both wi-fi and bluetooth would guzzle like no Palm before it...and the additional RAM would only worsen matters. Of course, for many users, this would be a small price to pay for having the ability to never be away from 'net access (asssuming you have a BT cellphone) while all the while keeping the SD slot open.



RE: Tungsten C could be cool
Take1 @ 3/25/2003 4:37:47 AM #
I'm with the guys that simply want a T|T part DEUX with all the problems fixed especially the screen and audio (louder and fidelic please).

Or better yet:


If Palm REALLY wants to have a hit like the Vx once again, simply take the T|W form factor (minus antenna and keyboard) put a 320 x 480 TRANSFLECTIVE screen (virtual graffiti), add a jog dial (keep the 5 way as well), and fix the audio ! Sony's too retarded to get this done so why not INNOVATE and do it BEFORE Sony for once?!?!?!?!?! AAAAAGGHGHGHGHGHHhhhhhhhhh! Do it... just do it.... you won't be going broke if you simply LISTEN to your customers... really!


RE: Tungsten C could be cool
Take1 @ 3/25/2003 4:59:06 AM #
oh yeah... don't forget B/T!



RE: Tungsten C could be cool
Altema @ 3/25/2003 10:53:30 AM #
"If not, then there's still quite a bit of life left in the classic V/m500 formfactor"

I agree and think that if they released one in that form factor with VG, hi res+, and BT it would be a good seller. 32Mb Ram and 16Mb flash would make it a killer.

Tungsten C: adding not replacement.
pdangel @ 3/25/2003 10:54:44 AM #
New Palm SG Model Coming in a Month or So
http://www.brighthand.com/article/New_Palm_SG_Model_Coming_in_a_Month_or_So

It's an interesting and logical wireless adding to there i705 decice, Tungsten T Bluetooth Model and Palm PDAs with SDIO support.

Bluetooth and Wifi Differences
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K115659A3
Bluetooth Applications
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G6B324FE3

"PalmSource expects that we are only seeing the beginning of what is expected to be a long line of Palm OS devices with embedded WiFi capabilities." http://www.palmsource.com/palmos/wifi_article.html

Asustek nor the Palm Solution Group has granted a PDA with built-in WiFi by the FCC.....yet!!!!!



"There are 2 kind of people my friend....those with wires and those without"

RE: Tungsten C could be cool
chilimost @ 3/25/2003 6:23:45 PM #
Two interesting items regarding those linked articles...

- The device is listed as having 64MB RAM...NICE!

- They praise Xircom (Intel) for supporting WiFi on Palm devices. Support is certainly questionable here... Their tech support for these devices sucks. Nor are they supporting any enterprise level functionality that you should have for corporate environments (802.1x, EAP, etc...) on their devices. They aren't even going to support their existing universal connector sleds with drivers for OS5. Apparently, these will fit the T|T (albeit not as perfectly as m Series Palms), but are useless w/o an OS5 driver. I'd have to disagree with their statement that they are truly taking the initiative. You have to do more than just manufacture the hardware for this IMHO...

RE: Tungsten C could be cool
burtba @ 3/25/2003 6:58:30 PM #
If Palm REALLY wants to have a hit like the Vx once again, simply take the T|W form factor (minus antenna and keyboard) put a 320 x 480 TRANSFLECTIVE screen (virtual graffiti), add a jog dial (keep the 5 way as well), and fix the audio !

FOR THE LIFE OF ME; I agree, why why why cant they do that when everybody knows that would be an INSTANT HIT. Even the TT form; 320x320 when closed, for address, quick info etc & 320x480 when open for picture viewing, spread sheet, ebooks etc.

Can anybody give us any reason WHY Palm would not do this???????

Tungsten Vx would be cooler!
RAMdŽd @ 3/26/2003 12:43:57 PM #
I'd be happy with a Vx form factor, a high-res screen, and a jog dial! The five-way nav button would be nice, but I could live without it.

32MB would be fine. I don't know that they could squeeze 64 into the Vx. (It seems that when more RAM is added, people tend to write fatter apps!) I'd want decent battery life! My iPAQ 3765 drains quickly without use, over three or four days. My Vx can go over a week of daily use and still have about 40%-50% battery life left.

I use my PDAs (V and iPAQ) outdoors about 30% of the time, and the iP's screen is almost always a problem to read.

I've been waiting for the T|T's price to drop a little more, but it's icons don't seem as nice as the iP's. Is that a function of resolution?

About Virtual Graffiti- what is that? I'd love to have a T|T that didn't open up, and let me write on the whole screen for Graffiti input, instead of having to access the designated input area. (I like Graffiti, but the iP's handwriting recognition seems to work much better than my V's. Does GII work any better?)

Huge screens are nice, but I really want something that fits in my pocket like the Vx/m505. (And I want an all metal case!)

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

Makes Me A Believer - Tungsten C
yetis @ 4/16/2003 5:03:50 PM #
Just a little tidbit on the Tung C. Follow the link and notice the reference at the top of the page.
"< Home

Why would www.Palm.com reference the Tung C if they were not going to make it, and, sell it soon I might add.

Any day now!

http://store.palm.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1164337

RE: Tungsten C could be cool
shantipur @ 4/22/2003 8:47:07 PM #
(shaking my head) Why not the REAL answer, Palm people? Why not a unit that has anytime wireless GPS/GRPS AND WiFi? Why not have the perfect wireless lifestyle device that does BOTH???? Or am I the only one who wants it all?

Skip Ferderber

Digital Media support?

Foo Fighter @ 3/24/2003 1:27:01 PM #
Will either of these products feature digital media (MP3 + Video) capabilities, or will we continue to see the same half-baked features similar to the TT?

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs
RE: Digital Media support?
rsc1000 @ 3/24/2003 3:53:13 PM #
I think palm has taken a bit of a knocking about the fact that the T|T didn't have mp3 out of the box. Since all they have to do to rectify this is to include the exact same software that you and i - or anybody with half a brain cell - can go and download now for free (Kinoma + RealPlayer), i can't imagine they wouldn't include these now that they are ready. Then again, this is Palm we are talking about...

RE: Digital Media support?
Foo Fighter @ 3/24/2003 4:03:42 PM #
Software availability isn't the problem. The TT audio output is too weak to serve as an MP3 player.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs
RE: Digital Media support?
alanh @ 3/24/2003 4:40:08 PM #
Seems plenty loud to me. The beta audio patch exhibited this problem, but the one currently available doesn't.

RE: Digital Media support?
SonofWan @ 3/25/2003 6:18:15 AM #
Am considering getting a TT but one thing that puts me off is this talk of low volumn. Is it really that bad?

RE: Digital Media support?
IanJD @ 3/25/2003 9:25:37 AM #
The volume is not unusably low. Unless you have poor hearing, or like music loud enough to damage your eardrums, a pair a decent headphones will yield adequate volume for most environments. The bass response is well documented, and less than optimal, but this does not make it useless for MP3 playback.

RE: Digital Media support?
MonkeyK @ 3/25/2003 10:38:57 AM #
Personally, until >1GB external memory is readily available for my PDA, I don't care about listening to music on the PDA.
I refuse to carry around the same damn album everywhere.

RE: Digital Media support?
Timothy Rapson @ 3/25/2003 1:14:11 PM #
RE: Digital Media support?
MonkeyK @ 3/25/2003 10:38:57 AM

Personally, until >1GB external memory is readily available for my PDA, I don't care about listening to music on the PDA.
I refuse to carry around the same damn album everywhere.

Exactly, AMEN

RE: Digital Media support?
RAMdŽd @ 3/26/2003 12:59:57 PM #
Personally, until >1GB external memory is readily available for my PDA, I don't care about listening to music on the PDA.
I refuse to carry around the same damn album everywhere.


Agreed, almost. I recall seeing 1G SD memory announced, and I could live with that. I use a 5G iPod, and I'm not shopping for a PDA/MP3 player to replace it, especially with only 8/16/32/64MB RAM.

With 1G SD cards and decent headphones, the 'Pod might see a little less action.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

Amazon's due date (oops)

Chankla @ 3/24/2003 1:30:50 PM #
Did anyone catch the availability date on Amazon.com?
--------------------------------

"Availability: This item will be released on December 12, 2012. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives."

and I thought OS6 was going to take a long time...

:)


RE: Amazon's due date (oops)
Morph @ 3/24/2003 1:59:46 PM #
I saw that for a few moments, but as I was showing a friend and did a refresh...it's already been changed. That was quite funny.

Guess they don't like letting us know the real lead time of some things. ;o)


************************************************

For what shall it profit a man if he were to gain the whole world, but lose his own soul.

RE: Amazon's due date (oops)
peitron @ 3/24/2003 2:49:43 PM #
Now the page lists the Tungsten C at $999! Who's running Amazon.com's web page? Sony?
RE: Amazon's due date (oops)
Foo Fighter @ 3/24/2003 2:59:40 PM #
Someone at Amazon needs to lay off the crack.

"it's better to be a pirate than join the navy." - Steve Jobs
RE: Amazon's due date (oops)
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 3/24/2003 2:59:42 PM #
LOL!!! Rumors sure goes as fast as technologies! *GRIN*


...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Amazon's due date (oops)
RAMdŽd @ 3/26/2003 1:06:47 PM #
Someone at Amazon needs to lay off the crack.

Some Amazonian seems to have a sense of humor with the date and price place holders.

CompUSA tends to use the numeric date for the price place holders- i.e. $40120.03! Happy April 1!



______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

Thanks but "no thanks"

grg @ 3/24/2003 5:37:21 PM #
I can't believe it !! Intel CPU instead of java optimised TI ARM926 , built in thumb keyboard ?

Sorry, that's not for me. I am sticking with TT until I see some real improvement in a new model. 400 MHz does not mean anything to me (I am not interested in running benchmarks to show up) and I don't have any use of a mini keyboard either.

RE: Thanks but
gulmatan @ 3/24/2003 6:17:01 PM #
AGREED!! First point, I STILL LIKE GRAFFITI. I'd rather have a Graffiti writing area (Jot!, Graffiti II, TealScript or whatever). I do not want to scratch up my display screen to be writing Graffiti--that's what the dedicated silkscreen area is for. Secondly, thimb keyboards are not even suitable for toddler/newborn-sized fingers. If these keys are even smaller than a toddler's fingers, can you just imagine how many keys we grown-up would be pressing at the same time. So, my vote is for a Tungsten|T or m5xx series form factor with the 5-way navigator (of course). Let the user buy an external, more confortably fitting full or 3/4 sized folding keyboard. ABANDON THE THUMBOARD AND KEEP THE GRAFFITI SILKSCREEN ALIVE!!!!

Matt A.

RE: Thanks but
guitarchick @ 3/24/2003 6:40:24 PM #
When are these jokers going to get it into their heads that keyboards are not the preferred method of text entry for most people. The first OS5 that comes out with 16+MB of Real RAM (not 16MB with 11MB available), graffiti (preferably grafitti 2), and decent speed will get my sale. I don't even care what it costs but it MUST have those minimum requirements. I really want to upgrade my Sony T615C but there hasn't been anything worth buying. Palm and Sony why aren't you listening? That is not asking for too much, is it?

RE: Thanks but
gfunkmagic @ 3/24/2003 7:14:58 PM #
What you guys fail to understand is that YOU and most people who visit forums like this are NOT the average pda consumer that PalmSG is targeting!! Most people who are not hard-core pda users prefer keyboards over graffiti! Thus the T|C probably is not meant for you. I agree though that OEM's should not abandon non-keyboard tablet pdas. We'll just have to wait until they deliver one unfortunately...

RE: Thanks but
beboscott @ 3/24/2003 8:47:47 PM #
How hard can it be to make a M5xx with a hires screen and a few other upgraded features (like virtual grafiti) to sell at a mid-price point? Elegant, simple, etc. You'd get a bunch of upgraders who now own other M5xx models and compete well with Sony's midrange models. I guess I'm just really surprised that they have abandoned this form factor for the chubby little Tungsten line. And I too have no interest in thumb boards - or a Zire that can't be used with a keyboard.

IIIxe & 3:16
RE: Thanks but
Kesh @ 3/24/2003 9:07:00 PM #
Actually, I consider myself a moderate PDA user (not harcore, but no slouch). And I prefer the thumbboards.

Why? I like to type. My handwriting is atrocious. Therefore, I get much higher accuracy with a thumbboard. :)

RE: Thanks but
grg @ 3/24/2003 9:46:50 PM #
>Most people who are not hard-core pda users prefer keyboards over graffiti!

I would rephrase that:
"Most people who are not hard-core pda users would prefer a toy or an mp3 player over a PDA". I seriously doubt if a thumb pad user uses this functionality more than an average graffiti user.
It is simply a psychological thing. Many potential buyers are afraid of hand writing. It might be ignorace, it might be FUD. It might be the mistake of them linking PDA directly with conventional computing schemes ("Where is that "X" button to close the application ?").
I find keyboard input inefficient, if not silly, but many would disagree. Graffiti was one thing that made Palm so succesful. It's a different era now. PDA makers target bigger markets and less capable or loyal users. I am not an average user. I am bound with my Palm. I use it everyday for my needs, not just to show off. I just wish Palm (and others) will continue catering for users like me.

RE: Thanks but
SQLDba @ 3/24/2003 11:02:00 PM #
The thumbboard is a non-starter with me. When I want to input data I do one of 2 things - I use the corresponding desktop app and sync it in, or I plug in my XT keyboard and type away.

When I am out and about, I am primarily using the unit as a reference book - so the nav pad and stylus are all I need. The notepad is nice for the impromtu jotting that sometimes is necessary - maybe I'm not typical - but I think it's funny that Palm has done such a great job finally making a one-handed unit, only to put out a handhand that requires you to use two hands (and thumbs) for data entry.



RE: I agree with Bebo
Cheetah @ 3/24/2003 11:23:25 PM #
I just want a 505 PDA with a hi-res screen and OS5 WITHOUT a keyboard. If this also had virtual graffitti and 32 mgs of RAM it would be the perfect PDA for me.

I do NOT want:

a built-in keyboard
a built-in camera
a built-in microphone
a built-in GPS
a built-in MP3 player

Keyboards really are handy!
TDS Computer @ 3/25/2003 12:29:15 AM #
I have used a Visor Prism since 2001, and picked up a Treo 90 in 2002. I have written hundreds and hundreds of pages of notes, etc... in Grafitti, and I find that the thumboard on my Treo 90 is much more accurate and efficient. I still like Grafitti just fine, but many of long-time Grafitti users who have switched would never go back.
I am personally looking forward to this device to replace my Treo 90. I was looking at a new Sony the other day, and I loved the responsiveness of the applications, etc... with the new CPU's and OS5. I was really planning on getting the new Sony G50, but the "11 MB useable RAM" really turned me off. This new Tungsten C looks like just the ticket.

Visit us at www.tdscomputer.com
RE: Thanks but
nrosser @ 3/25/2003 12:43:33 AM #
Count me in the camp of keyboard-lovers. I've been a Palm OS guy for about 6 or 7 years, and now with my Treo300, I'll never go back to Graffiti.
Simply stated - it fits my needs for how I use the product. Others have different needs and requirements.
No single solution is meant for all.

RE: Thanks but
Purfekshunist @ 3/25/2003 3:14:10 AM #
Count me in the virtual graffiti (no keyboard) camp. It seems there are a fair number of us looking for a 320 x 480 screen with no built-in keyboard.

I've been hoping for half a Clie NR70 or NX70, but an m505 with virtual graffiti sounds even better (higher capacity SD cards to store Kinoma video files). It seemed like Sony would be the first to offer something along these lines, then the earlier rumors of the newest Palms suggested one would have VG.

Oh well.

RE: Thanks but
em61 @ 3/25/2003 6:49:42 AM #
Please sign me up too for an m500 form factor device with OS 5.2, 32 Mb RAM, 320x480 hires+ screen, and standard Bluetooth. No camera, no thumboard, no wifi. Please. Pretty please?

RE: Graffiti is better
Zuber @ 3/25/2003 7:45:43 AM #
I think those rubbishing thumbboards need to accept that many people will prefer them over graffiti.

In terms of input speed, check out the results below, and check out the winner.

http://www.fitaly.com/domperignon/domperignon3.htm

Zuber

RE: Thanks but
Palminator @ 3/25/2003 9:19:59 AM #
First of all, the TI ARM is not "java optimized". Secondly, how many Palm users are using Java? I would venture to guess it is a very small number. Not even sure what you're complaining about or what point you are trying to get across. The Intel XScale device is certainly much more capable of handling Java and the other capabilities of the Tungsten C due to the higher performing XScale core.

RE: Thanks but
MonkeyK @ 3/25/2003 10:43:04 AM #
I would not mind a keyboard... if it was implemented like the Zaurus. HiRes+ with VG AND a keyboard. Leaves extra space under the keyboard for more battery!


RE: Thanks but
Timothy Rapson @ 3/25/2003 1:37:47 PM #
RE:" RE: Thanks but
gfunkmagic @ 3/24/2003 7:14:58 PM

What you guys fail to understand is that YOU and most people who visit forums like this are NOT the average pda consumer that PalmSG is targeting!! "

But who cares about THEM!:) They are just the 850,000 folks keeping Palm in business these days. :)

If all this trickles down properly, we may get a $99 Qire some day with all the bells and whistle. We will be sitting here whining that it doesn't wash our car for us!

RE: Thanks but
grg @ 3/25/2003 3:15:36 PM #
>First of all, the TI ARM is not "java optimized".

Insignia, the leading provider of accelerated Java solutions and owner of the well known Jeode VM is strongly collaborating with TI in OMAP CPUs.


> Secondly, how many Palm users are using Java? I would venture to guess it is a very small number. Not even sure what you're complaining about or what point you are trying to get across.

Java is the present in mobile technology and most likely in the PDA market in the near future when J2ME-Personal Profile becomes the industry standard.


> The Intel XScale device is certainly much more capable of handling Java and the other capabilities of the Tungsten C due to the higher performing XScale core.

Not if there is Java optimisation on silicon. Higher CPU frequencies are just a marketing ploy, something that Intel has done successfully in the desktop market.

> What you guys fail to understand is that YOU and most people who visit forums like this are NOT the average pda consumer that PalmSG is targeting!! "

Just because 99% of the people are happy with a Yazumi cassete recorder does not prevent electronic companies to produce HiFi machines as well.

RE: Thanks but
RAMdŽd @ 3/26/2003 1:14:52 PM #
Just because 99% of the people are happy with a Yazumi cassete recorder does not prevent electronic companies to produce HiFi machines as well.


No, economics does that.

In the audiophile world, folks will pay far more for a piece of hardware than 99% of "the people". Where else can you find interconnect cables that actually sell for $300 and more for a pair of 3meter cables?!

60" plasma (not just rear projection!) TVs are selling, to somebody. (Not me. )

But Palm is not in the position to sell truly exclusive, high end PDAs.

I wish they were. But we just have to wait until they are in a better financial position, or technology becomes much cheaper.

Until then, the majority of the buying public rules, especially when so many PDA buyers want Tungstes that sell for $149.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

Virtual Graffiti

QDeath @ 3/24/2003 6:46:53 PM #
Ugh, I dont' want a keyboard. I would be much happier with virtual graffiti.
Anyone want to guess when palm will start this?
Went from a Palm Vx to a Palm m515 and my next palm will be virtual graffiti.
RE: Virtual Graffiti
Lucky Bob @ 3/24/2003 7:36:02 PM #
Not any time soon...

(Why do some people say you can kill two birds with one stone when it's hard enough killing one bird with two stones?)

T|C? ARHH, why no bluetooth?

gfunkmagic @ 3/24/2003 7:21:06 PM #
The T|C specs sound cool, but why they heck did PalmSG not include BT as well? The fact is that most people do not have access to wifi 24/7 but DO HAVE a BT mobile all the time! I don't understand this, and I don't want to sacrifice the SD slot for a BT card! This is very stupid move IMO...

RE: T|C? ARHH, why no bluetooth?
Keithos! @ 3/24/2003 9:21:39 PM #
Because the Bluetooth radio interferes with WiFi reception. The way I heard it described, the closest analogy for the two signals competing with each other is, "try to talk to me while I'm standing in the shower."

The Bluetooth signal that the PDA outputs is like water falling on your head in the shower. WiFi is analogous to someone outside the shower trying to talk to you. The further away they are, the harder it is for you to hear them clearly or understand them at all. That is, with Bluetooth and WiFi in the same device, the further you are from a wireless access point, the greater the signal degredation, or the greater likelihood that you won't be able to get a decent signal at all.

That's how it was explained to me that we don't see many - or any - devices with both Bluetooth and WiFi built in.

RE: T|C? ARHH, why no bluetooth?
infobhan @ 3/24/2003 10:39:42 PM #
Both new Apple PowerBooks (12" and 17") have Bluetooth and WiFi built in. I've used both together on the same machine for some time. No problems.

RE: T|C? ARHH, why no bluetooth?
StudentDoc @ 3/24/2003 11:03:30 PM #
And I guess I am the opposite. I could care less if bluetooth is EVER included in my PDA unless we start to see some bluetooth access points popping up. I am not holding my breath for that. But 802.11 access is growing and we have it in several places on campus now. And if I wanted to use my phone to check email or web...well, I would just use my phone. It has a color screen and I don't need bluetooth and another device. Bluetooth is wasted technology for me unless someone other than a phone company or two start using it.

RE: T|C? ARHH, why no bluetooth?
ganoe @ 3/24/2003 11:46:54 PM #
Interference between Bluetooth and 802.11b is greatly exaggerated. With the right hardware design, you can even work to minimize it.

> unless we start to see some bluetooth access points popping up.

Well, Belkin is currently selling one for not too bad of a price.

Personally, I think a plain Zire like the current one with built-in Bluetooth would be the killer device. I can just see the kids running around chatting and playing games on them.

RE: T|C? ARHH, why no bluetooth?
frauen1 @ 3/25/2003 8:40:56 AM #
I often walk around with a laptop with both Bluetooth and 802.11b wireless cards on top of each other - it's my porable router for my various Bluetooth Palm's (TT, Clie w/ BT Memory Stick, etc.). It's only a problem when you get to the fringe of the 802.11b "cell" (which I rarely do), other than that it works great.

(Personally, I don't have a problem with an 802.11b PalmOS device - I do enterprise applications that can definitely benefit from that kind of connectivity. YMMV.)

RE: T|C? ARHH, why no bluetooth?
Palminator @ 3/25/2003 9:24:36 AM #
Have you ever looked at what happens to the effective data rate of an 802.11 device when put in the same environment as BT device? It is horrible. They do co-exist, but at the major expense of throughput and performance.

RE: T|C? ARHH, why no bluetooth?
TypeMRT @ 3/25/2003 3:02:50 PM #
Will someone please give me a situation where you be using BOTH at the SAME time. Both have their own sphere of uses, with little overlap.
For the record, I'll take BT over WiFi because 802.11g is out but I haven't heard peep about putting it in a handheld.

Thumb Pad vs "Virtual Graffiti"

atraum @ 3/24/2003 7:40:56 PM #
I have to agree with prior comments...I don't know if a Thumb Pad would be that useful to me. I would love to see a Pilot with the Tungeston T form but VG under the slider. Nice and compact while still functional with the option to extend the body and have a larger screen.

On the plus side I think 802.11? is great as long as there is a solution for conserving battery life. IMHO Palm or Sony needs to create a small unit with 320x480 while maintaining it's historic battery life.

RE: Thumb Pad vs
em61 @ 3/25/2003 8:56:43 AM #
The crucial battery life saving component for future pda's will be an organic display (OLED), eliminating the need to power a backlight. Combine this with hires+, Bluetooth, wifi (maybe), and you should have very acceptable battery life.

not insane

rcw @ 3/24/2003 8:53:32 PM #
sorry guys, the C is _exactly_ what I've been waiting for

I've been carrying Palms forever but never as productive as with my Treo90. I enjoy pushing buttons and I like being able to enter data one-handed. For me it's about twice as efficient as unistrokes.

The 802.11 is perfect for me since I don't carry a bluetooth phone but there is 802.11 at home and every office I hang out in.

If they'd shove a Verizon flavored CDMA voice/data module up in there plus a good speakerphone I'd be completely done. (and kept the 802.11, and maybe even added BT)--actually voice over IP would be handy too. and a case of beer.

yip yip

-r

Sod WiFi

kev @ 3/25/2003 5:02:20 AM #
Really, who really wants a device with built in wifi? what is the need? wireless internet access in starbucks? what? there's plenty of fine bluetooth access points for domestic and commercial use. many future rollouts will include bluetooth because it's simply more effective for PDA use. WiFi is a battery killer. I can't imagine what use 30 minutes of web surfing between running to your cradle to charge up will do for you. Granted it might seem cool, but the smell of diesel from the backup generator you'll need to carry around to power your handheld might put your fellow starbuckians off.

On another note, hail to palm on the consumer camera device. finally! something damn cool AND sellable. since it's os5, it'll do mp3's too. has nobody identified this as a killer device other than me?

RE: Sod WiFi
kidA @ 3/25/2003 10:54:11 AM #
yeah, the new zire sounds like it could be great--especially if it's got a hi-res display.
on the subject of why wi-fi, there are plenty of reasons. i think 30 minutes is probably a bit of an exaggeration--toshiba e740 users have reported much better than this. plus you can get a pretty powerful battry in these things these days--the tungsten w has a pretty big battery. in addition, have you ever been to a major university? many of them have wireless networks already in place campus-wide. i, personally, would find it very useful.

RE: Sod WiFi
daver42 @ 3/25/2003 1:12:22 PM #
For many folks whose work or school campus has started to implement roaming WiFi, having a WiFi enabled PDA would be great. Don't label WiFi as a coffee house-only wireless solution.
RE: Sod WiFi
mmmarkiep @ 3/25/2003 5:32:00 PM #
Not to mention airports. When I'm waiting at the gate or just get in, I really don't want to have to boot up the laptop to shoot an e-mail to my boss, change my flight, car or hotel reservation, kill some time IMing with friends, check the weather at my destination, or figure out if there's a good restaurant on the way to the hotel.

It makes sense to me.

RE: Sod WiFi
kev @ 3/26/2003 5:01:29 AM #
ok.. i was actually looking for a slew of ideas on where-to-use. the problem is, as always, battery life and i still maintain that 30 minutes is a fairly liberal estimate if you intend to use the PDA for any length of time afterwards. why would you kill your battery in an airport lounge when you're clearly on your way away to/from your home/office and any convenient means of recharging. you could always bring your "baby bag" containing battery chargers instead of diapers.

what's wrong with bluetooth in an airport lounge, a coffee shop or any other enclosed location? it's perfect. you don't need g-speed wireless on a PDA! (not yet, anyway ;)

here's my spin on wireless:
enclosed locations - bluetooth
campus locations - bluetooth is less viable but there's still the "popular areas" like coffee shops or libraries where this is still a runner

anywhere else: GPRS or Wide-Area coverage.
GPRS is still available by bluetooth ;)

I know from experience GPRS has been slow rolling out in europe and as bad in the US, but it's easier to find than wifi. costs more, so there's the final solution:

wimax: the metro-scale wifi standard which has just been published. puts wifi seriously into perspective.


the other perspective is portable diesel generators. until these are practical, i maintain wifi is just plain daft on a PDA ;)

RE: Sod WiFi
Stefanos @ 3/26/2003 6:48:25 AM #
"I know from experience GPRS has been slow rolling out in europe"

Slow? I've been using it in Greece for about 2 years now. I pay about 30 euros a month for unlimited data transfers, and no phone charges when connected. It is quite reliable, and though it is not as fast as my landline modem (in practice, that is) I use it to connect with my PC too.

I am not one of those people who think Wi-Fi and Bluetooth are in competition with each other. Due to my circumstances BT is essential. Wi-Fi isn't, but it would be a welcome addition to any handheld, since I can imagine using it in a corporate LAN, the airport, or wherever else Wi-Fi access points will appear. For everywhere else (e.g. trips in the country, etc) bluetooth is extremely useful, since you can connect in places where there is no chance of finding an access point.

Even before we get Wi-Fi and BT in one PDA, I think we would like to see a tablet-form device with 320x480 resolution, 32 MB RAM, Bluetooth built-in and virtual grafitti. I am sure it would be a huge success if only someone made it...

RE: Sod WiFi
mmmarkiep @ 3/26/2003 4:26:46 PM #
>what's wrong with bluetooth in an airport lounge, a coffee shop or any other enclosed location?

What's wrong is that it's not the direction the market in the US is heading. Airports, coffee houses, hotels, libraries, schools and business campuses are using WiFi. The majority of the home wireless market is WiFi at home, too. Doesn't mean it's better or worse. It's just the way it is.

Battery life is a big concern but, for now, that 30 minute estimate is all speculation, isn't it? I'll wait and see.

palm better get a new stylus

zackepceo @ 3/25/2003 7:08:15 PM #
Palm better get a new stylus that doesn't telescope or Apple might sue them...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q2A6356F3


I am one of the crazy ones!

RE: palm better get a new stylus
kev @ 3/26/2003 5:00:41 AM #
well, they could always opt for a keyboard... D'OH!

RE: palm better get a new stylus
ozz @ 3/26/2003 9:48:33 AM #
How about voice recognition so you don't need a stylus OR a keyboard? May not be practical in some situations but maybe if you whispered? :-)

new tungsten C

confucius @ 3/28/2003 6:15:24 PM #
It seems that it will come with a keyboard ,i as a "note taker" in meetings etc i would prefered a full screen no keyboard at all and just the place for the usual 4 buttons and jog dial with a virtual graffiti2 space.
In brief a kind of " wireless Palm tablet" using caracter recognition.

would like to have a "Palm tablet" pda larger screen input by writing on the screen
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