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Comments on: SEGA Releases 5 Classic Games for OS 5

SEGA Releases 5 Classic Games for OS 5SEGA's Mobile division has released 5 classic Sega games for Palm OS 5. The classic titles includes Sonic the Hedgehog, Super Columns, Shinobi and more. The games require Palm OS 5 and there are demo versions of each.
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First post!!!!

a3 @ 4/16/2003 9:59:06 AM #
Wow, If the gaming world continue with this pace I will have to switch from my T615c to a TT.

Why is it that the clies are not supported?

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

RE: First post!!!!
saw9000 @ 4/16/2003 10:11:51 AM #
I should hope that's a temporary problem, rather than a long-term limitation. I wouldn't want to see the apps only work on one device. I don't think that would do anything good for sales.

By the way, does anyone know whether they will be porting any Genesis titles?
Scott

HandEra Moderator
Off-Topic Moderator
I'm trying to be PC, I really am, but I'm just too into handhelds.

"First post" posters need not post
Fammy @ 4/16/2003 10:16:33 AM #
Awesome. If only I had an OS5 machine.

Sonic should work well with the TT's button layout. You only need one button in the game: Jump.

_____
Fammy

RE: First post!!!!
hkklife @ 4/16/2003 10:16:34 AM #
For once, I'd like to see something *delayed* even longer for further testing. Why? Well, if the MMC comes out for retail sale next month, then that means that these are pretty much the "final" versions of these games as will appear on the card itself. From very preliminary testing this morning, they appear be quit a bit below the standards of Rayman, performance-wise. Sonic is not nearly as smooth as I remember him being on my old Genesis or Game Gear--certainly the GBA version of Sonic would blow away the Palm version! Shinobi was pretty choppy and the controls seemed very sluggish as well. Otherwise, Columns seemed to be the best of the bunch and ideally suited to the T|T's d-pad (unlike Handmark's Tetris). Does anyone know if this is the same version of Columns that ships with the Sony game controller?

Additionally, the sound is a very nice (& unexpected) touch. I'll say the same things about these Sega games that I said about Rayman a year or so ago when it was originally release--give it some more time to be tested and tweaked and let's reevaluate it in 6 months or so. Otherwise, these sorts of "recognized" titles are precisely what Palm (and Sega) need right now. Sega's got a massive library of Master System and Game Gear games that would be perfect for Palm conversion. They really need to get them to work on at least Sony devices, though.


RE: First post!!!!
pocketscience @ 4/16/2003 10:28:18 AM #
I've tried them all on my T|T and I'm sorry to say they are a bit of a let down... the animation is far from smooth, the sounds are awful and the graphics are chunky. Looks like they slipped an emulation layer in and are running the old apps with zero changes... shame really.

On the other hand I just tried StoneAge+ - it really rocks on the T|T!!


G.

Wassup? http://www.pocketscience.com.au/

D-Pad, Maybe?
JonAcheson @ 4/16/2003 10:28:35 AM #
I can't imagine playing arcade games on Sony buttons.

Sure hope they work on the Zire 71.

Jon Acheson

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

RE: First post!!!!
chrisb @ 4/16/2003 12:41:48 PM #
pocketscience,

As you have suspected, these games are basically GG ROMs running on a Z80 emulator (or whatever cpu the GG ran on).

The sound could use a little tweaking, but overall a fairly impressive emulator IMHO.

I find them to run just fine on my T|T.

RE: First post!!!!
rsc1000 @ 4/16/2003 1:11:17 PM #
>>As you have suspected, these games are basically GG ROMs running on a Z80 emulator (or whatever cpu the GG ran on).
i wondered if this was the case - it makes a lot of sense because once the investment is made in developing the emulator, there is a whole catalog to easily exploit. it also helps explain why things aren't %100 optimised for OS 5 - they require it for speed/performance, but don't take advantage of things like OS 5 hi-res (but you see hi-res in the bottom 'emulator bar').

RE: First post!!!!
Ronin @ 4/16/2003 1:28:04 PM #
Perhaps the games won't work on Clie's because Palm has made an exclusive deal with Sega?

This is not unusual with other types of hardware. This could be a deal that is a marketing tool for Palm, that is, if you want to play Sega cames you will have to by Palm hardware.

Now, whether this idea, if true, is a good thing or a bad thing for the Palm OS overall is another altogether.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: First post!!!!
rsc1000 @ 4/16/2003 1:40:27 PM #
>>Perhaps the games won't work on Clie's because Palm has made an exclusive deal with Sega?

perhaps - just like the deal Sony seems to have made with Macromedia - any sign of flash for anything other then Sony Clie devices yet?

I think it probably also is related to the fact that they would also have to do seperate code for the Sony sound API - see my rant below.

RE: First post!!!!
chrisb @ 4/16/2003 1:44:37 PM #
rsc1000,

As impressive as the emulator is, it's still a bit of a work in progress. A better help system and maybe button mapping with the sound tweaks could make it the best emulator made for the PalmOS.

Hi-res would be nice, but Sega would probably have to recode the entire game to use upgraded graphics. Too time/cost intensive for a game line just starting out.

Maybe we'll see some hi-res games from them in the future if these do well.



RE: First post!!!!
helf @ 4/16/2003 1:57:59 PM #
"any sign of flash for anything other then Sony Clie devices yet?
"

Theres a flash player for os4

I have a copy of it..works pretty well on my m505.. The site talking about it is down tho :

RE: First post!!!!
LarryGarfield @ 4/16/2003 2:18:42 PM #
I'll wager the reason these don't work on the CLIEs is because Sony has chosen not to include the PalmSource Audio API in their devices, favoring their own instead. That means that you wouldn't get any sound out of the game on a CLIE. It's Sony's shortsightedness that's done it, not any backroom deals.

--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA
RE: First post!!!!
hkklife @ 4/16/2003 2:43:07 PM #
Of course Sony's non-adherence to the sound API is the only "real" reason these games won't work on a Clie. I mean, Columns was released as part of the bundle 6 (or more) months ago for the Clie game pad....so there's certainly no reason that these titles couldn't run on a Clie aside from the fact that Sega's trying to spend as little $ as possible right now, and it was probably easier to stick the 8-bit Game Gear emulator in there without having to redo it for Sony's sound support. Also, notice that "Palm Software" connection is hosting these titles, so presumably Palm might have even had a hand in the funding of these titles, so it would have a new and improved MMM Games Card to replace the old buggy one--that won't even work on OS5 devices, I might add. They've got Rayman already, which is a good start, and the Bejeweled/PopCap games card is on its way soon (it's already at Palm.com) so the Sony collection would make a nice compliment to that lineup of OS5 games. Now what we really need is SimCity...

RE: First post!!!!
benixau @ 4/17/2003 6:10:34 AM #
but do you want SC Classic or SC4 ?????
remember how slow SC3k and SC4 are on a real computer - now think palm @ 144Mhz. That speed is about the same as SC Classic was running on in the first place, if not greater (i remember Win3.11 -> 486 @ 66MHz)

BRING IT ON

Downloads don't work for my Mac

jcmorganstein @ 4/16/2003 10:28:31 AM #
All I get when trying to download is a screen of garbled text, both with IE and Safari. Oh well, would have been nice to try these out...

-jcm
RE: Downloads don't work for my Mac
hockalees @ 4/16/2003 10:47:25 AM #
Its not the Mac... same problem here with me on Windows 2000. I bet they don't have their Mime setting right on their server.

RE: Downloads don't work for my Mac
graph @ 4/16/2003 11:19:29 AM #
just save the garbled text and change the extension to .prc ...

RE: Downloads don't work for my Mac
abosco @ 4/16/2003 12:25:46 PM #
Yeah, too bad I have no clue how to do that. Think someone who does can email me the trial versions?

ABosco1@comcast.net

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

RE: Downloads don't work for my Mac
Xian @ 4/16/2003 12:33:04 PM #
Let me in on getting it via email. I tried to save it as text and change the extenstion to PRC. HotSync Manager then promptly told me that it was an invalid file and it wouldn't install it.

RE: Downloads don't work for my Mac
kpr @ 4/17/2003 12:08:56 AM #
If you are having trouble downloading the games, go to http://www.handango.com, select "Palm OS" from the search menu, and then do a search on the word "sega". You should get 11 matches.

Or go here:
http://www.handango.com/PlatformSearch.jsp?siteId=1&platformId=1&txtSearch=sega&optionId=1_1_2

dr robotnics beans!!!!

Pepper @ 4/16/2003 10:34:43 AM #
OMG, that is such a classic in my house! When i saw sonic i was excited, when i saw beans... well that just rocks. Bet you $20 its persuasion enough to get my mom to upgrade OS 5 ;-)

-Pepper

I love my Palm . . . do you?

RE: dr robotnics beans!!!!
abosco @ 4/16/2003 11:46:12 AM #
Same here Pepper, except I have those old memories of SHINOBI!!! I loved that game! I remember long nights down the basement when I was five or so... just playing. Jump, Chinese Star!, spinning star in the air! Beat the Boss with the armor!!!

When I saw Sonic, I got excited, and when I saw Shinobi, I was ready to pull out a credit card and buy the damn games. But I read on, and much to my dismay, it doesn't work on the Clies. This is pitiful. Could it be because of the different sound API? That's really the only reason as to why it shouldn't work on the Clie but runs fine on the TT. I'll download it and try to install anyway. I haven't hard reset in months, so I can afford it.

This is terrible. Now where did I put that stress ball...

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

RE: dr robotnics beans!!!!
rsc1000 @ 4/16/2003 1:16:50 PM #
>> Could it be because of the different sound API?

Sony has got to fall in line and support the OS sound API - this is frickin' stupid. OS 5 software should run on OS 5 devices. Developers who wish to go beyond simple pre-OS 5 'beeps' and do real sound must write code TWICE - once for every device that uses the OS 5 API (Palm SG and - presumably - every other sane device manufacturer who will be releasing OS 5 devices) AND then a seperate re-write of the sound code for Sony. As a developer i have this message to Sony - F%#* off! We are sick of writting code that makes special exceptions for every moron OEM designer's API fantasies. OS 5 potentially brings an end in sight to all of this - it supports every device capability you can think of (varying resolutions / perfectly great sound API for devices with advanced sound capabilties). But Sony felt that it would instead hamper multi-media application development for all its customers in favor of trying to control / proprietize everything. The SEGA games don't work for your Sony device? Blame Sony.

Awesome games

gavinfabl @ 4/16/2003 11:42:04 AM #
I do not agree with some of the comments made . I downloaded all the demos and have bought, Sonic, Shinobi and Super Columns.

Certainly very smooth on my TT

Zlauncher 3.01, Tungsten T

RE: Awesome games
MEDUSA @ 4/22/2003 1:57:59 PM #
I'm sorry. I've own Master System, Game Gear Megadrive (Genesis), Saturn and Dreamcast (and other brands)... so I've played hundreds of SONICs and clones.... The T\T versions are CHOPPY, VERY CHOPPY, JUST A FEW FRAMES OF ANIMATION.
If you consider playable the T|T versions of SONIC and SHINOBI, I recommend you the original GENESIS games... You'll be amazed.

MEDUSA

Clie

markgm @ 4/16/2003 12:35:09 PM #
My heart skipped a beat when I that Sonic will be available for OS5...and then it stopped when I saw it won't work for Clie. I would think there are more OS% users who would get these games would use Clies rather than TTs. (just my opinion). Hopefully as an above post said this won't be problem for OS5 devices not being compatible. I got one of the new Gameboy Advance SPs last week just to play Sonic! $20 seems steep, I wonder how these will catch on. I am a big Sega fan, so I hope this opens a new market for them.

RE: Clie
helf @ 4/16/2003 2:05:58 PM #
Can you imagine what it would be like trying to play these with the normal sony buttons?

RE: Clie
iain.collins @ 4/16/2003 3:54:36 PM #
On normal Sony buttons? Awful!

On a Sony game pad? Awesome!

Well done Sega - spectacular move (even though I miss my Dreamcast ).

Good choice of games too! (Sonic, Shinobi and Shining Force all being _true_ console classics - an oft over used term).

Animation Smoothness

kpr @ 4/16/2003 2:58:26 PM #
For those complaining about the animation speed and smoothness of Sonic, try turning TealScript off.

See the following thread for more info:
http://discussion.brighthand.com/palmhandhelds/showthread.php?threadid=31252

the background behind SEGA games on palmos 5

ardiri @ 4/16/2003 2:57:16 PM #
hi, ok. after seeing some comments on palminfocenter - i did some research. the facts are simple:

1. its a GG emulator
- it requires an ARM processor
- look inside .prc, there are 'ROMC' resources = rom images

2. it only supports T|T for two reasons:
- d-pad support for movement
- palm audio streaming API's (for its sound)

it is possible to get it running on a NX device, but, it'll require a bit of work. getting it running on the NX device by just ignoring the sound layer is a piece of cake (i did that in less than one minute). now, fixing it so that the d-pad keys are mapped to the normal sony keys = a much more difficult task, but, still do-able, just not in a minute *g*

i wont tell you how to do it, so, please dont ask. for now, its only for the T|T devices - and, any new devices that implement the two points above. its a great idea, but, the developers locked the implementation currently to a single device. by disabling sound altogether, it will be easy to get working (for them) on sony NX units.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

RE: the background behind SEGA games on palmos 5
markgm @ 4/16/2003 4:36:16 PM #
Bundle this with the Clie controller and you have a winner.

RE: the background behind SEGA games on palmos 5
Davy Fields @ 4/16/2003 6:47:28 PM #
I always followed the old rule that you need ten times the power to accuratly emulate a device.... the Game Gear had these stats:

Main Processor: Z-80 (8-bit)
Processor Speed: 3.58 MHz
Resolution: 160 x 146
Colors Available: 4,096
Colors On-Screen: 32
Maximum Sprites: 64
Sprite Size: 8 x 8
Audio: 4-lyr
RAM: 24K

Why the heck isn't this being accuratley replicated on a Tungsten? The Tungsten, if you're keeping count, is 40.22 times more powerful comparing the mhz.... not even including anything about screen colors, size, and what not..... buh?

-Davy Fields
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Palm_OS_5/

RE: the background behind SEGA games on palmos 5
ivo_jager @ 4/16/2003 7:31:54 PM #
I must say SEGA did a nice job in emulating their Game Gear unit on the T|T, although it needs some optimizing/tweaking to give it the feel of a real unit.
The emulator's core is one big multisegmented ARMlet.
And after some further research and "experimenting" (just for fun/educational purposes - NO we're not gonna share/tell you how we did it - and YES we own the titles we tried) we found the embedded emulator was pretty sturdy and able to run other GG titles besides these 5. OutRun anyone ? *g*


Ivo Jager
D3D/MT3D lead developer
www.mobilewizardry.com

RE: the background behind SEGA games on palmos 5
GoldenTiger @ 4/16/2003 9:53:06 PM #
Please post demo versions without the sound! I know a lot of clie users like mea re anxious to try Sonic out! Also, everyone email sega asking for versions without the sound or compatible with Sony Clie's!

RE: the background behind SEGA games on palmos 5
GoldenTiger @ 4/16/2003 9:56:05 PM #
EVERYONE keep emailing sega! and if someone could make a tool that lets you import any GG rom it would be awesome (ones that you own, of course)!

Email sega !
killah fury @ 4/17/2003 1:53:34 AM #
I emailed Sega through their web form asking for Out Run and compatible with Sony Clies...

http://www.sega.com/mobile/help/contact_cs.jhtml

RE: the background behind SEGA games on palmos 5
ardiri @ 4/17/2003 5:03:51 AM #
>> Please post demo versions without the sound!

we will not do this. while we have played with the binaries for our own internal use (to see what it is doing), we will never make such things available for the general public. please dont even ask - what we did ourselves we have already deleted from our harddrives. getting these games running on sony devices requires modification to the binary distributed by sega - and that is illegal and unethical to do. so, dont ask - we will never release such instructions/modifications. nag sega.

overall, its a pretty decent/generic GG emulator - and, we have experimented with a few GG roms with success - however, they will probably never leave our own palms or desktop machines :) sorry.

if you want other games, and support for your clie - email sega and ask them. there is no reason why the applications wont run on sony devices (we know, we have run them on sony devices). but, that is a decision to be made by sega.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

New Palms

Doc T @ 4/16/2003 6:16:43 PM #
Looking at the device pulldown on the Sega download page, there are two commented out options - Panter and Montana. The new Palm devices?


RE: New Palms
pocketscience @ 4/16/2003 7:20:58 PM #
Heh, they're not in the list anymore... but they are still in the HTML source...


Wassup? http://www.pocketscience.com.au/

RE: New Palms
pocketscience @ 4/16/2003 7:25:18 PM #
Bah..! Never mind...

Wassup? http://www.pocketscience.com.au/
RE: New Palms
cyruski @ 4/17/2003 5:11:53 AM #
montana is tungsten C
panther is zire 71

This is awesome!

Lucky Bob @ 4/16/2003 8:25:12 PM #
Finally, Sonic comes to the Palm OS! It's too bad I only have an m130...lol!

(Why do some people say you can kill two birds with one stone when it's hard enough killing one bird with two stones?)

Classic?!

tipds @ 4/17/2003 1:20:00 PM #
How can these be called classic. I guess the definition of "classic" has changed. It used to mean the classic games like Pac Man, Asteroids, etc. Now I guess classic means it's more than 2yrs. old. Anybody want to buy a classic truck? I'll sell it at a fair price for a classic!

Tip DS

Doom

MSTCrowT @ 4/17/2003 8:59:28 PM #
The only way I could justify replacing my Palm Vx would be if Doom and Doom 2 came out for Palm OS 5. Or Quake.

RE: Doom
helf @ 4/17/2003 9:17:32 PM #
amen.

Sony CLIEs don't have enough buttons!

yOyOYoo @ 4/17/2003 11:50:23 PM #
our CLIEs simply do not have enough buttons at this time to run the Gamegear emulation. The Tungsten uses the datebook/phone as Start Select buttons and the Todo/Memo as A/B buttons. up/down/left/right is accomplished by the 5 way navigator, which our CLIEs are missing.

So if programmers made a sound workaround, we could see the game, but we couldn't do anything with out button layout (maybe the gamepad would work - but I doubt this) We couldn't even move left and right in the sonic game, because our CLIEs do not have the 5 way navigator buttons.

The only workaround I can see to this is a complete software workaround, where "start" and "select" options are written into the toolbar at the bottom of this program. Also, button remapping needs to be integrated into the software also, so we can map our datebook/phone buttons to LEFT/RIGHT.

So as you can see, no easy feat. How good are these programmers anyways? Some posters said they had these games running on CLIEs... but how I ask? Button remapping must be involved.

RE: Sony CLIEs don't have enough buttons!
hkklife @ 4/18/2003 9:00:44 PM #
IIRC, the game gear had its 8-way D-pad and then two "action" buttons and a pause button.

The older Sega Master system had the exact same number of buttons available, but the pause button was rarely used in games to bring up a menu screen due to its location on the console itself, next to the power button (IMHO one of the many reasons Nintendo trounced Sega in the 8-bit wars)

So it really depends on which title is being ported to the Palm OS more so than anything else. Sonic, for example, only uses the d-pad and a button for jumping, so it would work perfectly on a Clie button-wise. It would be no harder to play Sonic on a Clie than it would be to play Rayman on a non-Tungsten Palm, aside from the poor quality of Sony's buttons (an entirely separate topic).

Additionally, Sega could boost sales for Sony tremendously by just requiring every Clie to have the game pad accessory installed. That would probably prompt Sony to integrate a d-pad into the Clies. Anyone remember the Playstation's little "Pocketstation" card? It had a tiny little directional pad that would fit very nicely on a Clie...I honestly thought that when I heard the rumors of Sony's very first Clie several years ago that such a pad would be incorporated...

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