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Comments on: HandEra Ends Palm OS Product Line

HandEra has announced it will no longer release Palm OS based handheld products. In addition the company issued and End of Life notice for both of it's handhelds the TRGpro and HandEra 330.
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Sad

DWD @ 4/17/2003 11:19:24 AM #
HandEra was a good contributor to the PalmOS line up and their contribution will be missed.

RE: Sad
markgm @ 4/17/2003 1:04:04 PM #
I don't know why, but it is kinda sad to hear this. While I didn't buy one of their products, I thought they were very innovative and were on the top of my short list because of the features they provided.

RE: Sad
Timothy Rapson @ 4/17/2003 1:40:43 PM #
Yup, Sad


There was a time when I dreamed of owning a Handera 550C.

All the 330 needed was to max out the memory, speed, and add a color screen. I would have paid $400-500 for one. But, there it is. Gone.

Alas.

RE: Sad
drw @ 4/17/2003 10:25:06 PM #
it's the end of an era!

---
David

PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!

gfunkmagic @ 4/17/2003 11:30:09 AM #
This is terrible news. With the demise of both Handera and Handspring in the stand alone pda segment, PalmSource needs desperately to add another significant licensee quickly! I know Legend and Acer have been signed on, but they're resticted to Asian markets. PalmSource need to ferociously woo a company like Dell or Apple IMHO and fast!

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
JKingGrim @ 4/17/2003 12:16:00 PM #
Liscencee fee went up? Outrageous!

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
Foo Fighter @ 4/17/2003 12:30:08 PM #
I disagree. The market is already too saturated as it is now. It is far more important to have a smaller number of profitable PDA vendors than a crowded market where no on makes money. It's the classic argument of QUANTITY vs. QUALITY. The Palm platform will do just fine with Palm SG and Sony leveraging handhelds, while Kyocera, Samsung and later Sony carry the flag in smartphones.

PalmOS is not doomed without Handera and Handspring. Far from it. And Handera was never a major player. Their demise will go unnoticed.



RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
abosco @ 4/17/2003 12:32:05 PM #
Probably because it's hard to stay afloat as a stand-alone software company (PalmSource).

Come on, we all knew they weren't really going to come out with another Palm. They had a two year head start and sat on it. First with a high resolution screen, dual expansion, real speaker, and everything Palm OS 5 handhelds are just now getting credit for, while HandEra had it so long ago.

Alright, so anyway, I'll agree all the way that PalmSource needs a new licensee. Enough with these dinky niche players. Great, a watch, an Asian device, lovely, but I want something that competes with Palm and Sony. PS said they were going to announce a new licensee at the developers seminar May 5-6, but I'll guarantee you it'll be another niche player. I mean, they said they were going to announce a major licensee a few months ago and who did announce they licensed? Fossil. Oh, that's colossal.

Right now, Dell would be an awesome licensee. Even Toshiba, at this point. We're too diversified at this point. PalmSource is staving off commoditization, which is good, but the result is no PLAIN device. Where is the OS 5 200 MHz Palm with a 320x480 screen with virtual graffiti? The Z71 may be close, but even that comes with a camera. I don't know, maybe I'm the only one who sees it like this, but either way, Palm and Sony aren't enough competition to each other. We need one more. Period.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
chasden @ 4/17/2003 1:01:54 PM #
In terms of licensees you've Sony, what more could you want? And don't forget Samsung, as well as the upstart Garmin (iQue 3600).

Bosco's right, so am I
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 1:35:08 PM #
"Where is the OS 5 200 MHz Palm with a 320x480 screen with virtual graffiti? The Z71 may be close, but even that comes with a camera. I don't know, maybe I'm the only one who sees it like this..."

No, you're not. It's interesting that while Palm "protects" its licensees, it's Pocket PC that's getting big names. Dell, and now JVC(!). Don't ask me how all of them will make $$$, but they all think they can, so have at it!

And now this:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2754

10) Palm will shift its focus to the high-end consumer and businesses, to prop up profits. Sony will address multimedia for consumers, Handspring will go after mainstream consumers with new Springboard-free Palm OS PDAs and its Treo. Newbies and the low-enders will snap up the super-cheap Asian Dragonballed versions. HandEra will get lost in the shuffle.

-- well, I didn't forsee the Zire and its rousing success. And Handspring is doing worse than I expected. Still...


RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
robrecht @ 4/17/2003 1:36:19 PM #
I agree. DELL would be good for clunky price competition but Toshiba would be better for high-end geeky stuff.

Thanks, Robrecht
RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 1:54:23 PM #
Matsushita (aka Panasonic) has never stepped in. NEC has done dismally with PPC. Casio is on its third try. That hideaway-keyboard Sharp Zaurus running PalmOS -- instead of Linux -- would be a very, very interesting device.

Ah, well, it's all academic, isn't it?

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 1:56:27 PM #
Oh, there goes Ryan's lousy censor software thinking a Japanese corporate name is an obscenity again! Ryan, I thought you fixed that!!

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
rsc1000 @ 4/17/2003 2:01:20 PM #
>>Don't ask me how all of them will make $$$, but they all think they can, so have at it!

I have been wondering about this for a while now. are all of these companies willing to lose money (they all have it to spare) in order to make in-roads into a marketspace that they believe will eventually make $$$? maybe their all making $$$ now - though i can't imagine with the PPC marketshare growing so slowly over the last couple of yrs and it being so crowded with big players. By comparison - Palm SG and Sony should be able to rake in cash. Why wouldn't Dell want in on a much bigger marketshare? Hell - they could do both and double their PDA sales within months.

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
abosco @ 4/17/2003 2:14:15 PM #
Actually, no, I don't remember EVER hearing any OEM or any part of the PPC/Windows CE division ever being profitable.

This is due in part to the amount of people that may or may not prefer (yet buy) Palm OS products, and also due to so many OEM's in the same market. Dell, HP, Toshiba, are the big three, but there are a bunch of others like ViewSonic. It's all crowded and commoditized. All they need is eMachines to complete the borefest.

Oh, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks like this. Mike, don't think you're special because you got a prediction half right because the obvious has happened. ;) Everyone knew HandEra was going to disappear and that HandSpring was taking the wrong path. Sony already did go into multimedia devices... but that Asian Dragonball thing... quite a bit off, man. Hell, I've got no room to talk since I didn't post any official predictions except on the forums, I recall saying time and time again that the Zire was going to be a smash hit, one of the most successful handhelds ever. Haha, guess I'm 100%.

Mitsu****a? That's ****amamy!

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

I think Apple would be ideal, doubt they want to though-
madmaxmedia @ 4/17/2003 2:43:49 PM #
I think Apple would be ideal as a Palm OS licensee, they would do cool innovative stuff that would ultimately add value to the entire Palm platform. I guess Sony sort of has that role, but Apple has better designers.

It would be cool to have a iPod/Palm OS type device, if it could be done. Instead of buying memory cards you would just use the HD.

I would buy one. Could they make a color one to sell for $500 to $600? Maybe, since the iPod costs $400 and the Sony SJ22 costs $200.

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 2:48:42 PM #
Bosco: Did you see the DATE?

Opinion: My Predictions for the Palm OS in 2002
Posted By: Ed on Friday, December 28, 2001 8:34:32 AM

-- NONE of that was obvious BACK THEN. Go read the c**p I took over HandEra, especially.

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
cbowers @ 4/17/2003 2:55:37 PM #
"It is far more important to have a smaller number of profitable PDA vendors than a crowded market where no on makes money."

And yet they won't *be* profitable if they can't get device feature set to where the consumer wants it. The platform needs PocketPC ilk licensees because the current big names in the platform, can't consistently get the total package right (including all of, software, hardware, API's, SDK's, support, feature set, and price-point).

It's a sad comment on Palm and Sony when I'm far more likely to keep using a now discontinued Palm PDA, then any of their "current" models. A new licensee with their head on straight, would seem to be the only hope I have of staying in this platform. There will come a point when vast application support won't be enough to outweight lack of feature-set, and driver support expansion options.

Not a single PalmOS licensee can boast the expansion support options, in varied and many brands, and price points, with OS level driver support, than HandEra. And browse through handera.com (while it remains up in current form) puts other licensees to shame.

"PalmOS is not doomed without Handera and Handspring. Far from it. And Handera was never a major player. Their demise will go unnoticed."

Only if the licensees are clever enough to continue to use HandEra Services for OEM ideas. Or perhaps only by those, like you, with blinders on who fail to recognize the true roots of the current visible "innovations" by Palm and Sony. The platform likely would not look today, as it does, without HandEra. To give Sony credit for HandEra influenced features is laughable. And that's not even begining to count the stuff that didn't quite make it to being released over the past couple years.

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
abosco @ 4/17/2003 2:59:52 PM #
OHHHH sorry, my fault. I thought that was THIS YEAR'S predictions. I apologize. Yes, that's definitely a bold prediction for that time, and it took a year or so to fully pan out. Point for you.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications
RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
scaught @ 4/17/2003 3:38:58 PM #
"PalmOS is not doomed without Handera and Handspring. Far from it. And Handera was never a major player. Their demise will go unnoticed."

yup. sadly it will go unnoticed. just like all their products did. i owned and loved a handera 330 until i broke it and replaced it with a sony sj20 which is definitely nice, and functional for my needs...but i still miss my HE330 sometimes.

what people probably dont realize is the entire handera company was comprised of about 50 people. they made a pretty significant dent in the "palm history books" for being such a small company. like the article says, alot of the things like expansion, dual expansion, software graffiti, etc were ALL done by TRG/HandERA and adopted by sony and palm.

IMO they released a superior B&W device that didnt have enough brand recognition power. theres all those other licensee reasons and whatnot too...ahwell.

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
Be3G @ 4/17/2003 4:03:35 PM #
Going back to the original topic of this thread, PalmSource will be anouncing a new licensee "in a new market category" during their Developers Seminar in May.

Thomas

Check out the Palm Tungsten|T review at www.comp-talk.co.uk

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
ganoe @ 4/17/2003 4:35:48 PM #
> PalmSource will be anouncing a new licensee "in a new
> market category" during their Developers Seminar in May.

It's probably Garmin.

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
Be3G @ 4/17/2003 4:45:15 PM #
It won't be Garmin, because they're already a licensee, aren't they?

Thomas

Check out the Palm Tungsten|T review at www.comp-talk.co.uk

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
ganoe @ 4/17/2003 5:13:57 PM #
I was questioning if they had ever been "announced" as a licensee.
RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
bcombee @ 4/17/2003 6:10:49 PM #
Garmin was announced as a licensee back in 2000 -- they just took a long time to prepare their first device.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 7:10:05 PM #
"Going back to the original topic of this thread, PalmSource will be anouncing a new licensee "in a new market category" during their Developers Seminar in May."

-- education? military? healthcare? toaster oven?

Oh My God! We're finally going to have Red Dwarf's Talkie Toaster!! I have longed to be annoyed minute after minute, hour after hour, day after day, by a cute little toaster that CONSTANTLY asks, "Would you like some toast?" (Well, at least it sometimes asks if you'd like a bagel...)


RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 9:08:44 PM #
For those who have never had the pleasure...

http://dimh.strangepursuit.net/list4.html

-- use CTL-F (in MSIE) to search for "Talkie" and you will see the beast for yourself.

RE: PalmSource needs to add a new licensee!!!
rsc1000 @ 4/17/2003 11:06:15 PM #
>>Oh My God! We're finally going to have Red Dwarf's Talkie Toaster!!

i loved that show:)

drawbacks of the HE330
palmwiz @ 4/18/2003 1:56:33 PM #
scaught says he had one until it broke. I broke my first one inside of a week, and yesterday had lunch with someone who is also on his second unit. That's why I never recommended Handera even though I carry a HE330 daily: they're too fragile, and the leaked shots of the taken-apart 550 looked pretty fragile too.

Have to agree with those tho say that the next model of Handera is called the Garmin iQue. It's got the same jog wheel, same redundant power connector, same virtual graffiti API, and on and on. Of the licensees, only Handera has in the past used the same connector design as Palm, and we see it again with the iQue. I just hope they managed to build a machine that won't break if you look at it funny.

Since they're still manufacturing sexy new machines, I don't mourn the loss of Handera as a vendor. Though I do wish they'd gotten a PalmOS 4.0 upgrade out the door first, so that I could use a CF bluetooth card in my machine.

this stinks!

kezza @ 4/17/2003 11:36:51 AM #
just yesterday i was contemplating geting an HE330, but kept telling myself the same thing i'd been saying for ages: "wait until a color model comes out."
now, i suppose I can get an HE330, but it'll never be supported again and i'd miss color. i'm so peeved! i was really stoked for a color PDA from HandEra. argh!

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com

Bummer

Pepper @ 4/17/2003 1:31:43 PM #
This is truly sad! Even though i never owned a handera, and really had no intentions to, it served as such a great product for so many other people. Where will some of the users who needed that kind of thing turn to? Plus, their work with virtual grafiti really showed everyone how easily and wonderfully it could be implimented

Its a sad thing that they had to give it up
-Pepper

I love my Palm . . . do you?

They did it to themselves

RhinoSteve @ 4/17/2003 1:22:13 PM #
Frankly, this does not surprise me at all.

The company was very techie and feature oriented with very poor consumer marketing plus an awful sense of industrial and graphic design on top of it. They never moved out of the abandoned Palm III form factor. The leaked images of the color prototype were some of the ugliest units I ever saw.

This is a computer company that never "got" how to sell to the consumer market. The real market doesn't care if it does XYZ if their friends will frown at the looks of it when they pull it out. Look how cell phones sell now.

I bet there was a meeting over there a year or so ago with some engineering founder there simply refusing to pay $100,000+ to an industrial design firm to make a good looking injection mold case. Now with Sony in on the game, HeadEra is being eaten alive. They are probably still bitching over how much they paid an image consulting firm to change the name to "HandEra."

Thus, only doing OEM units for others makes a lot of sense. They get to cut a lot of support staff for consumer customers and now they only have a few dozen OEM customers that also speak geektalk.

I don't consider this bad at all but more a maturing of the industry. I think HandEra will end up as the Studebaker of the Palm Economy.


RE: They did it to themselves
rsc1000 @ 4/17/2003 2:15:07 PM #
God that leaked color unit prototype was U-G-L-Y wasn't it? I can't imagine anybody in their right mind ever allowing it to escape from the drawing board - let alone building a prototype and letting it anywhere near a camera.

RE: They did it to themselves
ganoe @ 4/17/2003 3:03:39 PM #
I'm not sure what you are claiming HandEra did to themselves. I never had the impression that HandEra was trying to compete with Palm or Sony. They seemed quite happy to sell a few thousand units to a niche market. The impression I get from their press release is that PalmSource has made it no longer possible to license the OS in a structure that will allow them to sell to that size of market.

I find that odd because I thought one of PalmSource's recently announced goals was to support a large number of diversely featured devices to a wide variety of markets. I can't remember the exact wording, but I think it was in a press release. Apparently they are now only interested in the big players who can pony up a ton of cash.

RE: They did it to themselves
robrecht @ 4/17/2003 4:18:31 PM #
Even SONY complains of the cost of licensing the Palm OS!

Thanks, Robrecht
RE: They did it to themselves
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 7:05:31 PM #
Good! For the longest time, CLIE owners had to complain about the price of Memory Sticks!

RE: They did it to themselves
rsc1000 @ 4/17/2003 11:26:57 PM #
>>They seemed quite happy to sell a few thousand units to a niche market.

oh come on! Then why the hell are they no longer making Palm OS devices? This is the real world kiddies - Handera was - like most busineses - trying to make $$$. Its not a question them being "quite happy to sell a few thousand units to a niche market" - thats the only market they could compete in because they simply did not have the $$$ & resources to market this to the average consumer. Like most small companies - they hoped that this 'niche market' that they played in would yield enough profit to go for a bigger market share. Honestly - they made great devices (and i appreciate that) but if they weren't able to make a go of it, then there are 3 possible reasons why: 1) their marketing people sucked 2) they misjudged there ability to succesfully market to consumers with as little $$$ as they had OR 3) the average Palm OS buying consumer simply didn't want the features they were selling. Personally - i don't think their marketing people sucked - i think their marking people were invisible (reason #2). That and - a little of #3 - if people other than geeks were really screaming for CF we'd see Palm SG units with CF. Not that a significant enough amount of people don't want this (we may yet see it in a PalmOS device from somebody) but it clearly takes a backseat to other features as far as consumers are concerned.


Well, at least it's better to know

mikemusick @ 4/17/2003 1:30:44 PM #
Color me very, very unhappy. I am an independent developer with a client following in specialty, industrial applications - the kind of stuff that requires custom hardware interfaces. The loss of Springboards last year was bad enought, but losing the only native CF support in Palm OS is a killer.

Frankly, with this development Palm and its followers can pretty much kiss the "enterprise market" goodbye. The Palm OS platforms have been seriously lacking expansion capability, which is the cornerstone of specialty system integration. SDIO stinks for small quantity production; Springboards were great, CF was more difficult but still doable for small (<1000) projects.

While I'm already saying too much, I have a military contract whose long-term success depended on a not-finished development of a CF interface card for the HandEra 330. That's obviously history now. I will get paid for the work, but without the interface it's going to become shelfware.

RE: Well, at least it's better to know
mikemusick @ 4/17/2003 3:53:15 PM #
Reading between the lines of HandEra's press release, PalmSource is obviously pricing their OS licensing out of reach of small innovators and independents. HandEra had reassured us a couple of months ago that it was "business as usual for the foreseeable", but obviously PalmSource had different ideas about that.

Frankly, it's looking like it's time for my business to de-commit from Palm OS and bite the bullet with a transition to PocketPC if it expects to have any future. Thanks to Sony changing the playing field every two months, Palm OS hardware world has proven too flaky for even a one-year business plan, and that's no way to run a railroad.

RE: Well, at least it's better to know
ganoe @ 4/17/2003 4:43:41 PM #
> PalmSource is obviously pricing their OS licensing out
> of reach of small innovators and independents.

Yep. It really seemed like HandEra basically sat on an OS 4 upgrade for the 330 that was essentially ready for release. The only real reason I can see for it is that the price PalmSource wanted was out of reach. I did see a post elsewhere where someone thought the number of individual device licenses PalmSource is requiring was something huge. That would also fit with eliminating small innovators and independents. Hard to say for sure without knowing all the facts.

RE: Well, at least it's better to know
ganoe @ 4/17/2003 6:31:04 PM #
Hmmm ... the person with the info about the 330c said HandEra needed something like 50,000 ordered to produce it. It all makes sense now.

RE: Well, at least it's better to know
bcombee @ 4/17/2003 6:59:04 PM #
In business contracts like this, you generally have a minimum guaranteed royalty, and if a licensee doesn't sell a sufficient number of units, they end up paying more per-unit because of this. This is good for the licensor, as supporting a licensee takes time and resources, and they're guaranteed some pay off, even if the licensee's product does poorly.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: Well, at least it's better to know
mikecane @ 4/18/2003 1:19:40 PM #
There's also the component costs. To make a unit of X price, you have to figure in volume discounts for the screen and other components. That 50,000 min order cited for producing a color unit wasn't just due to the licensing fee, I'm believe.

RE: Well, at least it's better to know
ganoe @ 4/18/2003 4:07:44 PM #
> wasn't just due to the licensing fee

Of course not completely, but if you look at the facts and HandEra's press release they point far more to the licensing than anything else.

RE: Well, at least it's better to know
RhinoSteve @ 4/20/2003 10:15:12 PM #
Well you can say the small time guy get pushed out but from dealing with HandEra, it is more like the good engineer refusing to let go and have the company grow to where he needed to trust people outside his comfort zone. HandEra had huge opportunity and frankly, dropped the marketing ball.

*sob* :'(

helf @ 4/17/2003 3:36:26 PM #
*sniff*.. I've been dreaming of a color he330 for forever.. Now I might as well stop waiting and get a clie nx to use with my cf cards..

Good bye HE :-'(

RE: *sob* :'(
ganoe @ 4/17/2003 3:46:39 PM #
> get a clie nx to use with my cf cards.

Is there more than one card that works with it?

RE: *sob* :'(
abosco @ 4/17/2003 4:10:49 PM #
http://www.cliesource.com

Drivers are so close to being GM. They will cost $27, but they have full read/write capabilities and work with Audio Player, Movie Player, Voice Recorder, and Movie Recorder. Well worth the $27, if you ask me. Just think of all the money you'll save buying a 1 GB Microdrive for $200, plus $27 for the drivers than a $640 MSPro. Hell, buy three Microdrives and you'd still have quite a bit of change left.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

RE: *sob* :'(
mikemusick @ 4/17/2003 4:32:38 PM #
There is so, so much more to CF than memory cards! Will this new driver support the half-dozen or so CF GPSs? How about the serial port expanders? Sensor interface cards? Non-Sony WiFi? CF modems? Great if it does, *yawwwwn* if it doesn't.

RE: *sob* :'(
cbowers @ 4/17/2003 5:10:02 PM #
*exactly*. Even on my 330, the SD slot is where the memory goes (and even still it's got better read/write performance than MemoryStick). But the CF slot is where the real work gets done, with expansion devices.
I find it odd the high number of clie owners that simply don't get it. But I guess even the market for flashy, half implemented, proprietary, here now, gone tomorrow devices needs to be served. Good thing we've got Sony for that.

RE: *sob* :'(
helf @ 4/17/2003 9:23:36 PM #
I guess I'll buy another HE330 and use them till they die or untill another palm comes out that fully supports CF.

Another Palm that fully supports CF?
Marshall Flinkman @ 4/18/2003 10:30:35 PM #
Considering that Sony is the only other licensee at this point who's put out anything with any support for CF...

well, you may be waiting quite a while...

Cost increases associated with licensing?

ray00pal @ 4/17/2003 4:00:27 PM #
LOL! Palm, why do you cause HandEra to die? Why? This is a small but good company. Everybody in the company is good but you single handly kill them with high licensing fee!

Like other people does not need to pay. Yeah right, we are never suck. Someone else does it to me.

Thank god that a loser is gone. But, will anyone admit fault? No. It was due to the higher license fee, not that we suck. Keep thinking that way and you will never figure out why Sony can sell things above $500.

I rather hear HandEra said, we quit because we suck in designing a product that customers want, not what we want to make. We suck because we like ugly PDA. We REALLY REALLY suck when we put in many new features and STILL have no sell.

RE: Cost increases associated with licensing?
robrecht @ 4/17/2003 4:21:06 PM #
But even SONY complains of the high cost of licensing the Palm OS.

Thanks, Robrecht
RE: Cost increases associated with licensing?
ganoe @ 4/17/2003 4:22:09 PM #
> STILL have no sell.

Uh, if you actually read HandEra's press release, they are apparently almost sold out of all their devices. They've sold everything they made.

Sony sells in very low numbers at $500+. Nearly all the devices they sell are low-end models, same for Palm. So I suppose if you wanted to argue that HandEra needed a high volume device to keep paying for their licenses ... ah forget it, you just want to say the word "suck".

RE: Cost increases associated with licensing?
Fat_Man @ 4/20/2003 2:12:02 AM #
"Uh, if you actually read HandEra's press release, they are apparently almost sold out of all their devices. They've sold everything they made."

Well, DUH!!

Of course they have apparently almost sold out... the HandEra was like almost 3 years old. The question is when did they stop producing them.

KAY

RE: Cost increases associated with licensing?
ganoe @ 4/20/2003 9:47:13 AM #
The 330 is not even 2 years old. DUH!!! Palm is also now closing out 2 year old devices. Plus, you still can't get its features on another Palm OS PDA even today. Who cares how old it is in that case.
RE: Cost increases associated with licensing?
robrecht @ 4/20/2003 11:13:45 AM #
Fat_Man,

Why do you seem to despise Handera so much?

Thanks, robrecht

RE: Cost increases associated with licensing?
Fat_Man @ 4/20/2003 2:48:50 PM #
"Why do you seem to despise Handera so much?"

I don't "despise" HandEra. What I dislike is that all you HandEra loyalist are trying to blame everyone except HandEra for their current condition. "It's the palm license fee..." "It's big bad Sony..." "It's the planetary alignment..." Blah blah blah

Could it be that HandEra's demise is because they could not compete?


KAY

RE: Cost increases associated with licensing?
ganoe @ 4/21/2003 11:23:27 AM #
80+ messages here and I don't see anyone blaming Sony or planetary alignment. God forbid we actually discuss the reason given by HandEra.
RE: Cost increases associated with licensing?
robrecht @ 4/21/2003 1:22:59 PM #
Fat_Man:

Glad to hear that you do not despise Handera. It seemed to me as if you were unfairly denigrating the contributions of HandEra in referring to their dead-end technology. If I'm a Handera loyalist, it's only because I admire some of their innovative engineering with the Palm OS that in some particulars is still superior to what is being done by SONY or Palm. Their service to some vertical markets has indeed been noteworthy. I also think Palm OS would be better served by keeping them as a key engineering player if only as a consultant.

Thanks, robrecht

I knew it!!

Fat_Man @ 4/17/2003 4:27:40 PM #
Yea, that's right!!

About a month ago, I posted that HandEra was all dead-end technology which turned out to be exactly what they are: DEAD-END!!

Boy, all of the flames from these HandEra fanatics I got then, you would've thought that I spit into their bible or something...

While HandEra did developed some interesting technologies, they never got picked-up by anyone else. Their fate was inevitable.

Yea, yea... flame me all you like. The fact remain that HandEra Palm OS mechines are dead.

Peace out!!



KAY

RE: I knew it!!
robrecht @ 4/17/2003 4:43:44 PM #
But still no other Palm OS licensee has a 2nd fully functional expansion slot, while SONY's Memory Stick dead ended and needed to be replaced.

Thanks, Robrecht
RE: I knew it!!
Fat_Man @ 4/17/2003 4:46:38 PM #
Not true...

Check over at Cliesource

A third party developer has developed a diver that will allow ascess to the Sony's NX/NZ compact flash slot to accept flash memory.

KAY

RE: I knew it!!
robrecht @ 4/17/2003 4:49:45 PM #
I know, but it's still not fully functional like the Handera's was the day it came out. Has anyone been able to edit a spreadsheet in landscape mode on SONY's VG screen yet (not talking about Picsel viewer but editing). Again, Handera had this working before the 330 was even announced.

Thanks, Robrecht
RE: I knew it!!
Fat_Man @ 4/17/2003 4:59:57 PM #
Well, that's true to a point...

Like I stated, HandEra had some interesting technologies, I'm not denying that, but no-one else picked it up, and that's their downfall.

Well, if you want to talk about support out-of the box. The Palm tungsten did not have mp3 support nor did they have any file manager software to ascess their SD expansion.



KAY

RE: I knew it!!
robrecht @ 4/17/2003 5:11:56 PM #
I think it's everyone's downfall (and not Handera's fault) when both SONY and Palm have failed to do some things as well as Handera did them a couple of years ago. No, Handera is not the Messiah, but neither is SONY.

Thanks, Robrecht
RE: I knew it!!
cbowers @ 4/17/2003 5:16:12 PM #
I guess you Clie users have been crippled at 128MB's for so long, that CF memory drivers are a big deal for you.

It's not that big a deal. It's all the non-memory CF cards that are the big deal, and Clie users still have no access to them. Nor would it appear will any new users to the PalmOS market now.

Dark days for PalmOS until PalmSource and the licensees wake up and get it. Either PocketPC will grow to fill the vacume or SD/SDIO will pick up the pace. Either way it could be a couple years of wait and see.

The platform is a mess. And a lot of developers will be taking stock of things to decide future direction of projects.

What joe consumer doesn't understand is how they benefit from the dollars of Enterprise and Industry infusion to the platform. It doesn't get press, nor would they want it. But the benefits to the platform from their interest and investment trickles down even to the Zire and Clie owners. Dry up that presence with the expansion chaos, lack of extensible meat and potatoes feature set, and replace it with glitzy fluff that *only* a consumer is happy with, and the PalmOS as a whole will suffer as they move to other platforms for their use.

And I think the surface of that has been scratched with some of the developer comments above.

Even if you're a Clie owner this is a bad news item.


RE: I knew it!!
cbowers @ 4/17/2003 5:45:26 PM #
"Like I stated, HandEra had some interesting technologies, I'm not denying that, but no-one else picked it up, and that's their downfall."

More *were* picked up than weren't.
-In 1999 it was introducing support for standard expansion media
-a real speaker, and playing DTMF tones through it, and native .wav files from the expansion media.
-2 years ago is was voice recording, high-res with virtual graffity and landscape mode.
-swappable lithium-ion packs
-a separate DC 12 volt port
-dual media expansion
-Wifi support that still is unmatched with any other licensee

Some of those have just recently been adopted here and there in OS5 devices. But you can't find another PalmOS PDA with ALL the features that the HandEra 330 had for so long, without looking to PocketPC hardware. In fact two years ago the HandEra 330 was the only PalmOS PDA whose hardware had any credibility against the average PocketPC model. Most of the HandEra 330 features are taken for granted on the average dual slot PocketPC today.

And yet there remains no other PalmOS PDA with the demise of the TrgPro and HandEr 330 that can use (with built in driver support for):
-More than 7 brands of WiFi cards
-More than 9 brands of 10BaseT and 100BaseT CF ethernet cards
-More than 5 brands of 56K modem cards
-CDPD cards
-More than 6 brands of GPS cards
-Bacode scanners in Wand, Laser Scanner varieties (apart from Symbols's built in PDA models)
-More than 4 brands of RS-232 port cards
-Magnetic card stripe readers


RE: I knew it!!
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 7:08:23 PM #
Does anyone know if Symbol is producing -- or even has ever produced -- the color PalmOS device based on HandEra's 240x320 screen APIs?

RE: I knew it!!
cbowers @ 4/17/2003 7:33:57 PM #
No they aren't, at least publicly. And it wasn't just HandEra's high-res API. The whole OS was HandEra's, OS4.1 specifically, and it used the Epson QVGA coprocessor mentioned in joint HandEra/Epson press releases.

RE: I knew it!!
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 7:48:47 PM #
So Symbol is basically PPC now, huh?

RE: I knew it!!
Fat_Man @ 4/18/2003 1:20:47 AM #
"Dark days for PalmOS until PalmSource and the licensees wake up and get it. Either PocketPC will grow to fill the vacume or SD/SDIO will pick up the pace. Either way it could be a couple years of wait and see." then blah blah blah....

Dark day? Come-on! Aren't you giving HandEra too much importance? You make it sound like HandEra's demise is the fall of the Roman Empire or something. HandEra is such a small player in the Palm OS community, and recently with OS 5, they're not even in the game. HandEra's death is like a tiny bug on the windshield.


">More *were* picked up than weren't.
>-In 1999 it was introducing support for standard >expansion media
>-a real speaker, and playing DTMF tones through it, >and native .wav files from the expansion media.
>-2 years ago is was voice recording, high-res with >virtual graffity and landscape mode.
>-swappable lithium-ion packs
>-a separate DC 12 volt port
>-dual media expansion
>-Wifi support that still is unmatched with any other >licensee

You make it sound like that if HandEra didn't do the things above that no one else would. You know being the first to do something does not mean that it's the best way to do something. Classic example is HandEra's high resolution scheme. Palm OS 5 decided to go with 320x320 which pretty much screw HandEra, maybe that's one of the resons t why they couldn't release an OS 5 handheld.



KAY

RE: I knew it!!
mobilewriter @ 4/18/2003 2:15:56 AM #
It's just sad. For some of us Handera was the last link to what the Palm Community used to be. Not everyone wants to sit on the toilet listening to mp3's and playing games (will your battery last long enough?). Some of us want to get some real work done and not have to be tied down to an outlet.

By the way, for home I have an SJ30 and an M515. But if I get on a plan I take my HE330.

Did we read that right?

BUDD @ 4/17/2003 7:23:14 PM #
Does anyone else out there think that HandEra is actually planning to release a Linux-based PDA? Read the press release. The cost issue was about licensing the Palm OS. And Handera are a bunch of geeks anyway (open source/free...do whatever the heck you want to with it...no compliance standards...? Think about it.)

RE: Did we read that right?
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 7:30:11 PM #
Oh, that's a good one! Imagine, say, a Linux-based PDA in the form factor of the hp 1910 PPC...

... oops, Sharp's already been there. But you can't buy it in the US...

http://www.sharp.co.jp/products/sla300/

... just another reason for HANDERA to do it!

RE: Did we read that right?
ganoe @ 4/17/2003 7:39:28 PM #
I doubt Linux. Maybe HandEra developed the mystery machine that Handspring plans to release in the fall.
RE: Did we read that right?
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 7:46:23 PM #
Well, just to stoke appetites:

SL-A300: 2.7" x 4.4" x 0.5" 4.2 oz

hp 1910: 2.75" x 4.46" x 0.5" - 4.23 oz

-- man, makes the m5xxs and the TT seem like BRICKS!

RE: Did we read that right?
MSTCrowT @ 4/17/2003 9:08:57 PM #
I'd be surprised. It sounds much more like they've just run out of cash and time, and I've never heard of anyone making a profit out of Linux PDA hardware, as Sharp no doubt receives the bulk of its revenue from other sources. PDA's are a commodity, and consumer's aren't going to pay enough for the hardware alone to make it profitable.

RE: Did we read that right?
mikecane @ 4/17/2003 9:17:54 PM #
You are most likely correct, so dies a tasty rumor. Wasn't Royal supposed to come out with a Linuxed DaVinci PDA? Haven't seen it. Have you?

RE: Did we read that right?
orb2069 @ 4/20/2003 3:09:29 PM #
> Does anyone else out there think that HandEra is actually planning to release a Linux-based PDA?

That'd be amusing - After all the heavy lifting they've put into the PalmOS (First the OS extensions they wrote for CF/.wav support on the TRGPro, then the screen resoulutions and such...) I'm sure it kind of stings to have PalmSource tell them they can't even use their own (Contributed) code anymore.

I'm wondering idly if PalmSource is overpricing the OS3.5/4 licences in an attempt to drive people on into OS5/6?

Graffiti2?

mobilewriter @ 4/18/2003 2:12:34 AM #
Does this have anything to do with the demise of graffiti?
RE: Graffiti2?
gfunkmagic @ 4/18/2003 2:55:33 AM #
No, that has nothing to do with Handera...

PPC Licence

tmuralli @ 4/18/2003 3:24:44 AM #
They have decided to go with PPC/Windows CE because it's cheap(licence). And this is TRUE!!!

RE: PPC Licence
mikecane @ 4/18/2003 8:08:43 AM #
If they do something in an hp 1910 form factor -- but *without* the shortcomings -- they'll have a winner.

Shortcomings:

- no SDIO
- no serial in bottom connector (hence no keyboards!)
- lousy stylus (give us a TT-like stylus!)

And, of course, they'll have to spend some $$$ for a *real* designer. None of this ugh-leeee H330 nonsense.

RE: PPC Licence
BlueAnon @ 4/18/2003 9:29:26 AM #
actually somebody already makes such handheld, the newly announced Mio338Plus. It sort of shaped like Viewsonic V35, except much thinner and have curvier chasis. SDIO, serial, 40MB. No CF tho.
RE: PPC Licence
mikecane @ 4/18/2003 9:51:54 AM #
Just because MITAC makes it, doesn't mean the Mio will nbe sold *here*. What good is it if you can't buy it *here*? (And in the case of the Razor Zayo, what good is it if you *can* buy it here?)

RE: PPC Licence
rmhurdman @ 4/19/2003 4:27:57 AM #
I'll send you a Mio338. It's a nice machine, good form factor and all. The only two drawbacks are:
It is PPC
I have trouble reading Chinese characters.
Mio's marketing campaign has a picture of a fat caveman (probably the Chinese perception of an American) and reads: I don't want fat (pronounced Pang) and I don't want Palm. Compared to other PPC units, it's a sleek design. Too bad working with a PPC is a pain to work with, because I'd learn to read Chinese to use it.
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