Comments on: Test Shows Tungsten T & C Outperform iPaq

Both Documets to Go and Quickoffice now handle native Office filetypes.

>Both Documets to Go and Quickoffice now handle native Office filetypes.

DtG doesn't, yet.

Since March, Quickoffice Premier v7.0 has enabled Palm OS devices from OS3.5 forward to be able to access native Microsoft Word and Excel files from expansion storage cards, to receive these files via beaming or bluetooth transfer from laptops or PPCs, and to utilize forward-designed e-mail clients like SnapperMail for opening Native file e-mail attachments.

It is true that no similar solution exists on the market today for Palm OS handhelds.

---
Mike Compeau

Could someone beam over a Pocket Word or Pocket Excel file from a PPC to a PalmOS (5+) device and have your software deal with it just fine?

the pocket word/excel has to be saved as "word" file in the save as button inside the ppc tho. Otherwise yes, they should work. I have no problem transfering pword/excell directly to friends laptop.

(warning: excrutiatingly slow for big file)

These stuides are necessary as that is what each side (Palm and Microsoft) are bringing forward as arguments as to why their platform is superior.

Here's the link to the results:

http://www.veritest.com/clients/reports/palm/competitive.pdf

It is a good read.

--
Daniel Hibbitts
Ann Arbor Palm OS Developers Group
Ann Arbor Palm OS Users Group
http://www.a2pug.org/

Interesting read, but some aspects of these tests are misleading. Look at MP3 playback. Audio volume on the Tungten|T is anemic even at max. Yet the tests show it at 50%? Who is going to listen to MP3 music on a T|T at 50%? It's too weak at 100%.

Video? Sorry, but video on a Palm device is still a novelty at this point. I can't stand looking at choppy pixelated movie clips in Kinoma. How does that compare to PPC? Do the tests reflect quality?

These raw numbers don't tell the whole story.

Choppy Kinoma?

Is that on a PalmOS 5 device?

The Kinoma stuff I've seen (which is not much, I'm not really interested in PDA video) has been silky-smooth.

According to the full report,
"Video playback was inconsistent across the devices, with the HP 1910 displaying poor refresh rates resulting in jerky, slide-show-like video instead of the smooth playback seen on the Palm devices and the iPAQ 5450."

--

http://users.sunbeach.net/alchar/misc/palm/perfect_pda.html

d r. a. c h a r l e s
barbados

Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 1:37:54 PM:
> Hmm...a Palm commissioned study shows Palm devices
> leading Pocket PC? I am STUNNED. What's next? Apple
> benchmarks showing Macs outperforming PCs? 8^|

actually, apple's been doing that for at least the last 3 years, probably longer. since the introduction of the G3 powerpc chip with RISC processing, apple computers routinely outperform PCs at the same Mhz, and even when the apple Mhz is lower, particularly in the graphics arena. In fact, it was a major selling point on the the apple website for years.
i couldn't find the studies themselves from a few years ago on the apple website, but here's what they're touting now:
"The PowerPC G4 processor has been designed for unparalleled efficiency and performance. It can accomplish more tasks than Pentium processors in the same amount of time because of its short pipeline and the vector processing strengths of the Velocity Engine."
from http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com

Oh, and although I'll agree that the TT's audio would be improved by more volume, I should note that I listen to it at 50% sometimes. ;)

Chalk it up to preference.

PalmOS may be making inroads into multimedia functionality, but they are still not flawless multimedia machines- which is fine by me.

--

http://users.sunbeach.net/alchar/misc/palm/perfect_pda.html

d r. a. c h a r l e s
barbados

Yes, that is what I experience on my Zire 71. Every video I've downloaded or converted via Kinoma producer looks pixelated and VERY low quality. Refresh rate is fine, but the overall quality sucks. PPC is still way ahead of PalmOS in video playback. We need a TRUE video player, like RealOne, QuickTime, or Windows Media (yeah...like that's going to happen anytime soon). Kinoma is crude and primitive.

Sony's movie player renders excellent video, MUCH better than Kinoma. Too bad it only works on Sony Clies.

> Sony's movie player renders excellent video, MUCH better than Kinoma. Too bad it only works on Sony Clies.

Yes, it is the best PalmOS solution I've seen. Enough to match PPC. Unfortunately, it is proprietary. :-(

>>Every video I've downloaded or converted via Kinoma producer looks pixelated and VERY low quality. Refresh rate is fine, but the overall quality sucks. PPC is still way ahead of PalmOS in video playback.

The answer is coming in the form of MMPlayer. They added some video to 1.1 and added mpeg4 / divx codecs to 1.3. They have synchronization issues (they added mpeg4/divx before fixing these so that they could deal with the sync issues in a generic/robust way that would wrk with all codecs) - but these are betas. They are supposed to release 1.4 in the next day or so - it fixes the synch issues seen in the above betas. Even with the jerkiness in the betas (1/2 sec of smooth video / 1/2 sec of delay on some videos) - it is clear that the quality of the video itself greatly outshines kinoma AND it uses native file format (no silly conversions).

Again - these are betas. 2.0 will fully support video and streaming(!). Still - these guys move VERY FAST with implementing and releasing new features (the 1st audio only version was released a couple of months ago and was the only app aside from RealOne to freely support MP3). This is the app to watch - can't wait for 1.4.

My IIIxe renders video fine.

You did need to take a commissioned study with a grain of salt and also wonder why other types of things weren't tested. I have no doubt that when Palm requested that certain types of things be tested, they already knew what the results would be (roughly). One of the things that I was disappointed to see in this report (and which I see all over the place in device reviews/comparisons) is setting the brightness levels to maximum on a set of devices and comparing battery life. Few devices have the same brightness level when set to maximum, so they really should set them to the highest equivalent brightness level.

Scott

http://goodthatway.com

Kinoma on my 144MHz TT blows the doors off of WMP and a slew of third-party video players on the 400 MHz Dell Axim which I ended up returning before the 30 day deadline. The TT also won hands-down on the clarity of sound both in recording, and playback through the built-in speaker. If the PPC could have kept up on the multimedia front, Dell wouldn't have lost my money ;-)

I carry around the trailer for the Pirates of the Caribbean movie as a demo piece on my Tungsten, and it never fails to drop jaws, even among PPC users. Then again, I converted at a high frame rate and parity, with good quality sound.

I don't understand why you would be getting playback that is so pixelated, foofighter.

Using Kinoma on my Clie (N760C at that!), it is very, smooth...and the graphics are great.

As a T-C owner, I've seen the pixelation in Kinoma as well. It appears that in order to save file size the fast moving portions have the information in them reduced. The scenes with rich detail are the static portions. Which in theory makes sense in an MP3 audio kind of way, but it seems to be taken way to far...

The result is apparent on both pre-made trailers from Sony, and one's I incoded with the Kinoma producer from the T-C.

Performance is obviously there with ridiculously high potential framerates, it's just to pixelated for my liking.

I'll have another look with MMPlayer I guess.

Hmm, I get great video on my n770c. There is an issue with any fixed bit rate system with pixelation in action scenes, indeed my Digital Cable does the same sometimes. However I am very happy with the full Matrix Reloaded trailer on Kinoma (encoded to my own settings).

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

Foofighter, I agree with the choppiness/grainy issues. I guess that to be expected though, as all the samples have the bit rate, and frame rate, and the audio compression, AND the audio sampling rate reduced as a sacrifice on the altar of file size. The version of the Kinoma Producer that comes with the Z71 (and T|C?) does not give you control of the encoding either, so you get pretty much the same results when you do it yourself.

The default settings are a far cry from optimal as you can see below...

Default for T|T:
FPS=15
Bit rate=640 kbps
Audio sample rate=22.050 khz
Compression ratio=2:1
Audio boost=none

With the full version, you can adjust the quality accordingly, but I've seen samples encoded at 12 and even 10 FPS. At that rate, you may as well rename it to JPS for Jerks Per Second.

Now I've gotten good results by making the necessary adjustments, but then file size takes a big hit. Julie (The Gadgeteer) had the same complaints, so I sent her a few with improved quality. But guess what? I still had to compromise slightly on the bit rate and audio just so I could email the files! She said they were smooth, but still grainy. With her being a balanced and reasonable person, I left it at that because using full quality would result in files that would not fit my mailbox. For my own use I can jack up the settings, but it's not something easily shared. Still, even at max quality, there is an "edginess" to the images. Not bad unless you look close, but I think the PPC WMP does a better job of smoothing out the individual frame images so the look nicer at the lower bit rates.

One thing I do know, is that it's not the hardware anymore. 22khz compressed ADPCM audio on a device with CD quality audio? We won't even talk about frame rate! At 15 fps, the T|T is just loafing.

BTW regarding the audio; I do listen to the T|T at 50% or less at times, but your headphone selection is very important. Get a set of headphone where the sensitivity is less than 94Db and 100% won't be enough. I had to audition several pairs to find a decent set with good frequency response and good sensitivity. Quite a drastic change from my mixer that will BLOW a set of headphones, plus your ears in the process. I must add though, that the audio quality of a T|T with the latest audio patch is VERY good. Better than my both of my Sony MiniDisc players.

On my Zire71 Kinoma works fine. A 14MB episode of Spongebob Squarepants(Reef Blowers) plays great. I have no complaints.
And after seeing ScummVM with Monkey Island 1, I am REALLY impressed with it.

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.

Altema

"At that rate, you may as well rename it to JPS for Jerks Per Second.

After reading this line... I've realized that I am a dirty, dirty man. ;)

In all seriousness, I was quite interested in your comment about T|T's audio. Which headphone (or is it earphone?) are you using? I'm no audiophile, but I'm sure I'm using low quality ones because the sound output is low. I'd like to get new ones, but wouldn't know where to look.

Anyone out there with suggestions?

Jim

comparing kinoma to .mpeg is like comparing .gif to .jpeg. And declare the machine that run .gif is superior because the picture shows up faster.

heh...

Just volume is not necessarily an indication of quality. I've had some that were loud and sounded like junk, and some not-so-loud that were good quality. The flip side is also true. Now that you ask, I'm amazed that there are no model numbers on any of mine except the Koss.

My favorite headphones were my former Koss lightweight folding set which is now out of production. They have a stainless steel band, and I could adjust the pressure on the ear itself with little pads that rested on your head above the ear. The kids destroyed them, which is why I don't have the model #. The sound quality was excellent if you can find a pair still in stores. I'll see if I can find the model number somewhere else.

I currently have 2 Koss, 3 Sony, and one RadioShack set. I know, I'm embarrased to mention RadioShack, but at least you could listen to them before you buy, and most stores will even open the packages for you to try 'em out. I got tired of buying a set at other stores, then going through the whole exchange process.

ANYWAYS... The Koss TD-61 sounds good and is accurate, but they are not real sensitive. I use these as my mix phones on my road PA system for which they are great. On the T|T they are OK as long as you don't need them real loud. The other Koss are the lightweight blister pack ones you get for $14.99. The sound is low AND bad.

On the Sony side, I use the "studio" headset which is silver, medium sized, and I can flip the earpiece over while doing live mixing. They sound as good as the Koss TD-61, maybe even a little clearer, and are slightly louder. The other Sony sets are the cheap walkman type. The sound is, umm... slightly better than holding two Palm III's up to your head, but nowhere near as loud. They ARE more stylish though :)

The RS set is a $19.99 affair of medium size, black with blue accents, rotary volume control, and a mono/stereo selector switch built into the cord. Although slightly lacking in the bass range (but still warm enough to be pleasant), they are clean and detailed in the sound quality. Volume is very good with a sensitivity of around 98Db if I recall correctly. Having the T|T at max volume with these is loud enough to make you turn it down or take them off after a few seconds.

I don't have the packing or model number for them either, but they should be easy to pick out by the rotary volume instead of the typical slider volume controls. Also hard to miss is the extra long cord; this cord is so long that you could leave your Palm in the car and listen from the porch. Heck, it's so long that someone could steal you car, and would get halfway down the street before your head got yanked off!

Seriously, there are probably a few dozen sets that would work well with the T|T, but I wear out, break, and lose them too much to invest in the high end ones. A lot of them also come with the 1/4 inch plug and need an adapter. It's just gonna get stuffed im my audio bag anyways.

To Dr. a. c h a r l e s barbados;

Your description of the perfect PDA is very close to mine. I would dump the blue tooth and include a camera. I think we are getting very close to a standard PDA design.

"comparing kinoma to .mpeg is like comparing .gif to .jpeg. And declare the machine that run .gif is superior because the picture shows up faster."

You are right in perceiving that the typical Kinoma clip is not equal to the typical mpeg clip. The typical data rate is lower for Kinoma with many being in the 320 kbps range. Well, of course you device is going to fly with less data to process. However, if you put aside your preferences and look at the amount of raw data being processed by the CPU, you can get the amount of actual work pretty close by adjusting the encoding.

Just to settle matters in my own mind, I did such an experiment a couple months ago, matching the kb per second, frame rate, window size, etc. so that the amount of data processed was equvalent. The HUGE performance gap went away, but was still there. Instead of Kinoma running at 300fps, it was more like 154fps. Respectable, but not absurdly high like it was assumed they all should be.

Still, you have to realize that the T|T has a built-in DSP, and the T|C is just plain fast with the OS optimized near-perfect for the processor.

The overall clock speed does not tell the whole tale, as the T|T memory tests clock out at 588Mhz, and the T|C does the same test at 1.6Ghz. Yes, that's Ghz, not Mhz. Yeah, it's got a big battery for very good reasons!

They are TWO entirely different compression algorithm!

.mpeg/.wmv are scalable upon processor power, Kinoma does not.

Let's wait until the mmplayer come out and see how fast it goes. I'll be plenty impressed if it can pass 20fps on same .mpeg rip. (if it doesn't crash at all that is)

I use a pair of SONY MDR-G52. Don't know what the specs are exactly, but the output is very good. I also have a pair of earbuds which came with my iPod, but those are about as worthless as stuffing cotton in your ears.

Altema, what SONY Studio headphones are you referring to? Which model is it, what is the pricetag?

>>>>>According to the full report,
"Video playback was inconsistent across the devices, with the HP 1910 displaying poor refresh rates resulting in jerky, slide-show-like video instead of the smooth playback seen on the Palm devices and the iPAQ 5450."

-- whaaat?! I personally downloaded the 240x320 Molly Star Racer MPEG "trailer" and ran it on an hp 1910 at CompUSA. *No way* could it be described as anything like the weird experience above! It was fluid. It was GREAT! I was impressed. I wonder about this report...

Want to try Molly for yourself?

You need Macromedia Flash 6 to access this site:

http://www.sparx.com

-skip- intro!

choose British flag for English language

In the search box at left, type MOLLY

When you see her picture, center, click on it

In the left panel, scroll down, see MEDIUM QUALITY 8MB
video (unless you really want to try a 20MB file!) --
RIGHT CLICK/SAVE TARGET AS... and save to your HD.

"They are TWO entirely different compression algorithm!"

Yes, and your point is?

If one device can process and display the same amount of raw graphical data three times faster than another device...

I can see it now in a coast to coast road race between a Jaguar and a Suburban. The truck driver pulls up next to the Jag, who has been sitting there almost a full day, and shouts "Yeah, but I had my windows open!"

If that is not enough, lets throw out the OS difference. Let's try identical OS, identical applications, identical functions, but with a different processor. Such a test was done publicly in front of a crowd of spectators; one PPC equipped with the TI OMAP at 175Mhz, the other PPC equipped with an Intel Xscale at 400Mhz. The TI OMAP processor walked away. No codecs were involved. The processor does make a difference, and I can also add that the OS makes a difference. I have both side by side. They seemed on par when I had an M515 in regards to speed in some things like opening ebooks and crunching spreadsheets. Now that I've become accoustomed to the T|T, my PPC is agonizingly slow. The Mhz numbers say it should be the other way around, but reality is a different story.

Mike, how could you have watched this video on a store demo model HP1910? It doesn't have Windows Media Player installed in ROM.

It was Pocket TV, boyo!

I lie not!

I d/led that and put it on the 1910.

little details always kill don't they?

Hell, if the PPC had done crap, I would've said so. In fact, two PPCs do crap when it comes to certain types of MPEGs: the ViewSonic V35 and the Toshiba e75x. Apparently they use the same screen technology and certain MPEGs (the pulled Spiderman trailer with the World Trade Center) look *awful* on it -- while they look just fine on the 1910 and iPaq 39xx. Ah, the wonders of technology...

I know that one day this will be commonplace.. But right now, what does video on a palm really matter to the average user. I have a demo the Porsche Boxster on my T-T with Kinoma and the only thing I use it for is to show off to my colleagues. I can't belive someone really returned a handheld because it would not do video fast enough. It would take as long to upload a 30 minute ?movie to the memory card as it would to watch it... once?
Maybe if you were using it to demo a product or something.. but wouldn't you want a larger screen for that purpose?

Ok.. flame ahead.. so I am the only one in the dark ages who isn't watching Saving Private Ryan in widescreen 2" color :)

Hotoru

There are people who have ripped The Matrix to put on a Microdrive. I'm not one of them. I have personal uses for video.

"I can't belive someone really returned a handheld because it would not do video fast enough. It would take as long to upload a 30 minute ?movie to the memory card as it would to watch it... once?"

Blasphemer!

http://goodthatway.com

I don't think I'll be getting a bag of popcorn and sitting down in front of a 2 inch screen. However, I do have a 1 hour video my kids love, and those fight scenes from the Matrix are alway entertaining. My wife has a more legitimate use: video of their dance rehearsals. Any question about how a certain part went? Problem solved as they pass it around despite the cruddy sound. Also, going to the hospital and taking a video taped message from a loved one can really make someone's day.

Do you think people will find out any usefull apps for video on handheld overnight?

It will take times for somebody to figure out what's the use of it, developer to write the tools, and somebody provide a service.

why do you think there is no video service like mazingo for Palm? or video dial up sever like pocket presentation?

The same things happen with .mp3, and look how much trouble Palm is trying to get T|T up to snuff with mp3.

Do you think if there is a hot wireless video service going online in christmas, Palm can immediately jump into action and plug their device into that service? Yeah, I bet It'll take them another half year to patch the handheld, release a new model with better memory handling for streaming video, better wireless stack.. etc etc....(ust like .mp3)

but hey, people should be happy with basic organizer apps only right? who needs all these fancy schmancy stuffs.

(and people wonder why T|T doesn't sell.)

Quote:
"Yeah, I bet It'll take them another half year to patch the handheld, release a new model with better memory handling for streaming video, better wireless stack.. etc etc....(ust like .mp3)

but hey, people should be happy with basic organizer apps only right? who needs all these fancy schmancy stuffs."

Hey bluehemoriod,

Again you don't what you're talking about. Streaming video has been possilbe on PalmOS of very long time now using Firepublisher enterprise sever! I'm tellin ya need to lay off the ganja or youre' brain will...er...hell I guess it to late for you anway...Long live rasta mon!

does that proprietary codec with no sound even run on OS 5.0?

Speaking of mobile video and limitations posed by internal flash memory, I LONG for the day when we see handhelds with mini hard drives built-in. I'm getting tired of PDAs, as they are currently designed. Although the Zire 71 has nearly twice the internal storage as my old M505, I somehow have less space for my apps and data.

As I look at my iPod (10gig HD), with PIM functionality, games, and various other goodies, I can't help but wonder if this isn't the direction PDAs should be moving.

>> My favorite headphones were my former Koss lightweight folding set which is now out of production. They have a stainless steel band, and I could adjust the pressure on the ear itself with little pads that rested on your head above the ear. The kids destroyed them, which is why I don't have the model #. The sound quality was excellent if you can find a pair still in stores. I'll see if I can find the model number somewhere else.

These fantastic headphones are far from discontinued.
Go to www.froogle.com (not google) and type "porta pro". They're all over the place.

>>As I look at my iPod (10gig HD), with PIM functionality, games, and various other goodies, I can't help but wonder if this isn't the direction PDAs should be moving.

Oh, Foo! Thanks for the segue!

"2) Late in 2002, when ARMed/BeOSed Palms start to appear, Sony will introduce the first Palm OS PDA with a built-in hard drive. Sony will use -- or will have licensed or developed in-house a version of -- the tiny 5GB Hitachi hard drive currently found in the Apple iPod. [...]

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=2754

Why do we dare question an independent lab's results? as a matter of fact why do we dare question their results against our own tiny, subjective experience with a demo iPaq.

IMHO, I'll stick with the lab test instead of any personal opinion.

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

Baaaah, baaaaah, baaaaah.

yeah but microdrives doesn't last. Look at the failure rate of IBM's microdrives. They are very dysmal, it won't last 2 years with average physical handling. Plus there are already 6GB CF, tho the cost are astronomical, but by the time they cram 10GB of microdrive to a CF< the 6GB CF will be cheaper than microdrive.

>>>>Why do we dare question an independent lab's results? as a matter of fact why do we dare question their results against our own tiny, subjective experience with a demo iPaq.

>>>>IMHO, I'll stick with the lab test instead of any personal opinion.

-- yeah, why BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES when you can have someone else implant their idea of reality into your (in your case, obviously tiny) head.

Tch, tch. Neo needs to speak to you.

Baaaah, baaaaah, baaaaah.

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

Oh. As if you know what that was the onomatopoeia of. You obviously don't.

Nope, not a clue about the onomatopoeia issue. But I think I'm gonna now very soon... (and as usual it will come along with some of Mike Cane's insults).

On the other hand, "yeah, why BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES when you can have someone else implant their idea of reality into your head." means that I should prefer MIKE CANE'S OWN SUBJECTIVE EYES instead of THE LAB'S OWN OBJECTIVE EYES?

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

Does the personal use of video include sheep videos?

Thanks, robrecht

Sandbuck, thanks a million! I'm ordering a set ASAP.

Foo, you've got your Kinoma quality settings wrong. That's the only thing that can explain your pixelation. Kinoma blows away my brother's Ipaq 5450. We both had the same Matrix trailer loaded when I ran into him last week and mine is movie quality. His was marred by the iPAQ's low resolution screen. Here's my producer settings:

format: cinepak mobile
fps: 30
size in pixels: 320X240
bitrate (this affects pixelation) 1000kbps

Your Zire should have no problems running 30FPS @ 1000kbps.

wait until a good .mpeg player shows up for palm, then you'll yell uhh... .mpeg blows away kinoma pictures out of the water dude...

but of course since there is no such thing, Kinoma is declared better than .mpeg. Same reasoning used in Transreflective btw.

uhh,, T|T screen blows everything out of the water dude, even thos pathetic iPAQs. But now that T|C and Z71 come out, everybody sings different tune: uhhh.... transreflective rulezzz...

*YAwww...nnn... *

Well one thing I have discovered by playing with Kinoma settings...DO NOT convert movies in FULL SCREEN. They look terrible. I just down-sampled a Quicktime movie to "Large", and that did make noticable improvements in quality. However, I stand by my conviction. Quality still isn't as good as what I get from my Axim. Framerates are much better, mind you, but overall quality is still subpar. I see lots of visual artifacts and pixelation.

And I especially dislike Kinoma itself, both the PalmOS client and Desktop component. Pure Hackware! Ugly vintage PalmOS UI, clunky desktop middleware, draconian setup. Give me a REAL video player...no conversions....no PDB files...just pure MPEG playback.

> uhh,, T|T screen blows everything out of the water dude, even thos pathetic iPAQs. But now that T|C and Z71 come out, everybody sings different tune: uhhh.... transreflective rulezzz...

Oh, the T|T apologists are still lurking around, denying the obvious...."I just went to Circuit City and looked at the Z71 and T|C screens. I'm not impressed at all. This is pure hype, my T|T blew away every one of them. A group of people standing nearby all agreed...Reflective RULEZ!!!"

The best part is, these idiots don't even have a say in the matter. By the end of this year (hell, probably the end of this summer) you won't even find PDAs with Reflective LCDs. I hope these T|T fanboys really mean what they say about loving their reflective screens, because they are going to be married to those T|Ts for the rest of their lives. Reflective LCDs are heading for the Smithsonian.

Quote:

"uhh,, T|T screen blows everything out of the water dude, even thos pathetic iPAQs. But now that T|C and Z71 come out, everybody sings different tune: uhhh.... transreflective rulezzz...

Oh, the T|T apologists are still lurking around, denying the obvious...."I just went to Circuit City and looked at the Z71 and T|C screens. I'm not impressed at all. This is pure hype, my T|T blew away every one of them. A group of people standing nearby all agreed...Reflective RULEZ!!!"

The best part is, these idiots don't even have a say in the matter. By the end of this year (hell, probably the end of this summer) you won't even find PDAs with Reflective LCDs. I hope these T|T fanboys really mean what they say about loving their reflective screens, because they are going to be married to those T|Ts for the rest of their lives. Reflective LCDs are heading for the Smithsonian."

Foo, you do realize that quote was from ska don't you? Anyway, when I called your pals at ppcts "fanboys", they conveniently decided to ban me. Its ironic that you get away saying that over here...

What's wrong with saying it here. It's the truth. If you think otherwise, you haven't been following some of the postings by T|T owners. When the Zire 71 and T|C were announced (and the media gushed over the beautiful new displays) a wave of nervous defensive denial went up from T|T owners.

"Yeah, but how good are those Transflective screes outdoors? I use my PDA outdoors 90% of the time"

Such nonsense. What are these people....lumberjacks?

By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me.

People can't handle the truth.

kezza wrote: "actually, apple's been doing that for at least the last 3 years, probably longer. since the introduction of the G3 powerpc chip with RISC processing, apple computers routinely outperform PCs at the same Mhz, and even when the apple Mhz is lower, particularly in the graphics arena. In fact, it was a major selling point on the the apple website for years...."

Actually, a recent review at Digital Media Net pretty much shoots the "Apple is faster than Intel" theory. Not that I have anything against Apple (I use both Apple and PC), but this is an interesting comparison by an Apple supporter:

http://www.mediaworkstation.com/2002/05_may/features/cw_aeshowdown.htm

Sorry for the long link, makeashorterlink.com is not coming up today.

FYI, there's also http://www.tinyurl.com -- which I've switched to. It's simply better. (Hmmm... whose trademark is *that* sentence?)

>>>On the other hand, "yeah, why BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES when you can have someone else implant their idea of reality into your head." means that I should prefer MIKE CANE'S OWN SUBJECTIVE EYES instead of THE LAB'S OWN OBJECTIVE EYES?

-- it's quite amazing how the ignorant can just get themselves in deeper. Can you not READ?! Why should *I* believe their report when my own eyes contradicts their assertions? And why not try it for *yourself* instead of sucking on your thumb and blindy following a surrogate Mommy or Daddy? (Or, in your case, Foster of each...)

And, Foo, you'd better be careful. If you notch it up a setting or two, people will start believing that I've stolen your login and am posting under your name! You've used the words "idiots" and "fanboys." Well, of course I approve -- but that should scare you! >>evil laughter!<<

Quote: "By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me."

It was basically just using the term "PPC fanboys" that pissed them off. For the actual reason, I suggest you ask J Dunn or EdH, even though I'm pretty sure they'll tell you some other ficiton/lie. In short, whatever you call the "lumberjacks" or PalmOS carzies that exist here, the same goes for the posters at ppcts and etc. The main difference is that the PPC users are allowed discuss, flame or whatever here unlike ppcts. Quite frankly, it's quite closed minded of the admin there not to allow opposing views from people who want ot debate and argue misrepresentations (of which are many btw) that frequently are made over there. And also, I'm am not the only one who was banned either FYI. Thus, there might be tons of immature posts by zealots, flames etc on PIC, but at least there isn't the type of rabid, broad censorship that occurs elsewhere...

you didn't know anything about dissapearing posts do you? lol

> you didn't know anything about dissapearing posts do you? lol

Dissappearing posts? I thought that was simply an urban legend. You know, like mutants living under the city in sewers, alien abductions, Jane Fonda's acting career. ;-)

> And, Foo, you'd better be careful. If you notch it up a setting or two, people will start believing that I've stolen your login and am posting under your name! You've used the words "idiots" and "fanboys." Well, of course I approve -- but that should scare you! >>evil laughter!<<

Just doing my part to stomp out sense and sensibility. ;-)

"By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me."

I was banned as well. Obvious reasons, really, but I had a good run.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

So how was your little adventure in pocketmatrix and pocketpcpassion? ;)

Well my opinions have gotten me into trouble a few times. I haven't been banned, but I'm certainly not welcome there. They tolerate me though. 8^|

Hey Mike:

I must say that your yada yada insult yada yada is very annoying. Specially the yada yada part.

Anyway, I'll be seeing you around...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

By the way, I was referring to PocketPCthoughts. I just went back and read my post and noticed it may look to the casual viewer that I was replying to Roseblade, which I was not.

Move along...nothing more to see here.

gotta keep that public image nice and shiny eh?

------
hey this roseBlade garb is really awesome. It has the power to fend of boyish barb. I think it can jinx them with cootie power subconciously. lol

> gotta keep that public image nice and shiny eh?

No, if everyone thought I was replying to YOUR post, they would have assumed I'm not welcome at PocketMatrix and PocketPCPassion. I was talking about PPCT.

I think it was pretty obvious that I was talking to Bosco. He got flamed so bad in pocket matrix, I think the board is about to hack his computer. lol
He behaves in PPC passion pretty well so far tho'

>>Hey Mike:

>>I must say that your yada yada insult yada yada is very annoying. Specially the yada yada part.

>>Anyway, I'll be seeing you around...

-- you wish.
_________________________________
Guarde sus manos a se pervertido

"Altema, what SONY Studio headphones are you referring to? Which model is it, what is the pricetag?"

Foo Fighter, they are the Sony MDR V300 headphones and run about $35 to $40.

Wait what? I've never even VISITED PocketMatrix. I just recently signed up for PocketPC Passion, but I haven't even posted anything. I think you're talking about the wrong guy. Maybe someone stole my username over there or something, who knows.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

> Guarde sus manos a se pervertido

Doesn't that mean..."Keep your hands dirty". Or something to that effect?

Actually it does not mean anything.

Guarde=keep
sus=your
manos=hands
a=to
se= no meaning
pervertido=pervert

Anyway, Mike good try. But keep the insults coming in english...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

"Keep your hands to yourself, pervert!"

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Bosco:

Thanks for the translation!

Sorry to bother and not trying to offend you (though some guys get offended very easy) could you please tell me what is "Top Non-Mods". I'm not from the US so maybe that is why I don't understand that expression.

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

"Try to keep your words smooth and sweet so that they go easier when I stuff them down your throat."

Sorry man, but Mike's nads are unbustable. Better stick to English so I don't have to confuse myself stumbling over three languages.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Well, actually Bosco the phrase is not very harsh: it is not "when I stuff them down your throat" it is when you have to swallow them. It is just a lessson that I've been learning for a long time now...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

That makes sense. Anyway, back to topic.
_______________________________________
Huelo como pescados

JAJAJAJA

> Foo Fighter, they are the Sony MDR V300 headphones and run about $35 to $40.

Thanks, I'll pick up a pair.
_____________________________
Mis pantalones se están sintiendo divertidos

Foo, you gettin' some or something? You smell like fish, your pants are fun... I can put 2 and 2 together. ;)

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

LOL!

Thanks, Bosco. I thought babelfish had failed me. Leave it to you to bring sense when the other fellow can't!
_____________________
Pesque que los pantalones del desgaste son apuro
Pesque eso sin los pantalones son peor

Thank you very much, I'll be here all week. Be sure to tip your moderator on the way out.

____________________________
Enough with the damn fish!

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Ok Mike if you continue hurting my native language then I must surrender. Your spanish is awful. Face it, you can only do the yada yada insult stuff right.

Anyway this has turn into a boring conversation I'll wait for another topic to continue...

"Larger Screen - Lower resolution yes bu you can still view more text and that is most important, right?"

Where are people getting this information? Physically larger means easier reading, not more data on the screen at once.

Also, you noted that rotating the screen allows more data on the screen. It doesn't allow more data on the screen, it just makes it easier to read web pages and text because you don't have to side scroll as much and it acts as if you're reading a book.

You say this was a very selective article, but you were VERY selective yourself. Here's a few examples:

How are you going to respond to an email with the iPaq? Do you REALLY want to use transcriber past the first three sentences? I don't think so. The keyboard is great for this, especially on a unit optimized for web access and email.

The screen is personal preference. Those of us with average eyesight should cope fine with having more data on a smaller screen than having less data on a larger screen. Although the difference is negligable, it's a matter of personal preference to be honest.

The iPaq is huge. I've felt one in my hands and I played with one for a few hours hands-on. It rivaled my NX in size. The T|C's size is average for a PDA, which is great with such a feature set.

Same specs. Come on, I don't think we need to go stride for stride with the point that 64 MB on the Palm will get you farther than the 64 on the 5455.

Last thing I'd like to point out is that the T|C is $200 less.

For a quick math reference, H5455 - Bluetooth - Love handles - larger screen - $200 + higher resolution + speed + storage + keyboard = T|C. Solve for X. ;D

Don't get me wrong, the iPaq is a great product. I'd love to own one, but I'm plenty content with my current HH. IMHO, the T|C is a better value for the money.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

I agree with most of yr comments - Palm needs to put the 'silk-screen' graffiti are to bed one and for all. Theres no excuse for any new Palm OS device to not be VG (i bet most will be in the next yr). Theres also no excuse for mono output - dual purpose for input be damned. I disagree with yr last comment however. Whether or not PPC2003 is more optimized fotr xscale - it is such a slow, cludgey OS (my 144mhz OMAP TT makes the 400mhz iPAQ 5455 PPC seem S-O S-L-O-W for normal OS operations, that even with PPC 2003 i bet it its still greatly outperformed by t|c. Now, a lot of this is because palm OS is lighter (and lighter on features) but damn, PPC is one hell of a bloated win32 based(CE brings a lot of unnessecary win desktop code/clutter along for the ride) hog.

i just read the comment i posted above - i want to apologize for writting such a poorly constructed paragraph:)

Totally agree with abosco!

Palm TC rules in corporate audiences by faaaaaaar! Have anybody mentioned size and weight:

TC: 3.07"x4.8"x0.65" @6.30 oz.
iPaq 5450: 3.3"x5.43"x0.63" @ 7.26 oz

As you can see you need to include the reinforced shirt pockets cost if you plan to buy an iPaq...

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

The Tungsten T display is larger in terms of pixel count (320x320 versus only 240x320). Granted, the TT does require better eyesight for the same amount of information because the dpi is higher. But if you have good eyesight, or reading glasses, you can put 25% more data on the TT display.

The maximum amount of milliWatts of audio output is one metric where the TT does seem to underperform some PPC models.

"First off, the TCs screen is smaller, you cannot turn the screen in landscape mode to read more information as the T/Cs screen is square."

But you can't read more. In landscape mode your screen is still only 320 pixels wide. Same and the T-C's, but you've only got 240 pixels of page length, the T-C has 320.

"Second, there is NO built in voice recorder and NO stereo headphone jack on the T/C."

Well the built in part is weak, it's on the CD though, and is there. The lack of a built-in mic is very odd however. And yes, they wasted the potential of the jack. The four conductor jack could easily have handled stereo out, and mic in. You don't need separate ground pins for input and output. Reference the HP5450 and Toshiba E755 four conductor jacks with mic input and stereo output.

"Third, why no mention of the webpage that was tested in the download. "

Maybe not in the article but it's listed if you read the actual test results. It's a CNN home page with the ad links removed. Even the specs of the webserver on the internal network serving the page are listed.

just wait until Palm put a 3.7 inch screen, and we all gonna laugh.

It'll be the size of Texas and last 2 minutes, but all palmie head will declare it "technological breakthrough", because now it includes stereo out.

muawahahahhaah.......

last, the tester was too scared to compare T|C to E750.
lol..

we know hot THAT gonna last.

As for the headphone jack, think Voice Over IP, rather than MP3.

"just wait until Palm put a 3.7 inch screen, and we all gonna laugh.

It'll be the size of Texas and last 2 minutes, but all palmie head will declare it "technological breakthrough", because now it includes stereo out."

Palm with a 3.7 inch screen? No. A unit with a normal sized screen with virtual graffiti would be 4". The NX's screen is just as wide as any other device, but it's just really really long. Beautiful, too. 3.7" would be cramped, while a PPC still stepladders. Let's not get into this, it's OT.

I don't get why you keep talking about Palmie heads. Sony has already done every single bit of this. People who want that functionality with the multimedia capabilities, large screen, awesome bundled software, and flash have moved on to Sony. Let's not get into this, it's OT.

"last, the tester was too scared to compare T|C to E750. lol.."

I'll be honest, I thought this was going to be a cross-platform benchmarking measurement, and I could finally prove to you just how slow the PPC is with its MHz and just how much more resourceful the Palm can be. People (except you) have accepted this fact, but I just wanted to show you the proof and shut you up again. I'll have to wait another day, though. Or maybe I'll learn to code and do it myself... yeah, that'll be the day.

"we know hot THAT gonna last."

It would last with the Toshiba NOT lasting.

Please. The PPC platform isn't bad. But when you try to say Palm devices suck because it can't do stereo MP3 and it has a small screen (albeit denser), you're not looking at the whole picture. The T|C is $499 at its base price and it's marketed to the corporate environment. I don't exactly agree with the decision, but if that's what they want to do, fine. The $500 price tag is competitive. Now I know you're going to come in here talking about a "deep discount", so I'll just say you can find T|C's for as low as $400 (rebateless) if you know where to look, too.

Now if you want to get OT, I should ask you why there still hasn't been a PPC with a keyboard. Or a higher resolution screen. Or a half-decent flip-cover. But frankly, I could care less at this point.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

"As for the headphone jack, think Voice Over IP, rather than MP3."

Yeah, big stuff in the near future, and something that will get you noticed on the job, rather than fired like listening to mp3's on the job. Some corporations are sinking millions into new networks to better handle voip plus data.

As it stands right now for voip, the T|C is the best equipped handheld at the moment.

Hey maybe it support telephatic touch interface too!

PS. apparently other companies have no problem whatsoever to include 4 pin mic jack, complete with stereo. (ie. h5450 can use phone mic jack, and standard stereo plug)

amazing isn't it?

"PS. apparently other companies have no problem whatsoever to include 4 pin mic jack, complete with stereo. (ie. h5450 can use phone mic jack, and standard stereo plug)"

Yeah, it's not a technical problem. Palm could have (and should have) put in the T|C. That was one of my reasons for holding off on the T|C. How much do you think they saved, $3.00?

RE: Here is a thought..
Altema @ 5/20/2003 8:43:41 PM

"As for the headphone jack, think Voice Over IP, rather than MP3."

Yeah, big stuff in the near future, and something that will get you noticed on the job, rather than fired like listening to mp3's on the job. Some corporations are sinking millions into new networks to better handle voip plus data.

As it stands right now for voip, the T|C is the best equipped handheld at the moment.

Um, the Ipaqs have had VOIP capabilities for quite some time.

http://www.pocketpresence.com/download/ipaq/rvip/

With that said, how is the T/C the best equipped?

I still believe that the larger screen, even though its 320x240, can be easier on the eyes to read e book, web pages, etc. Im hearing that you can fit more data on the 320x320 from some of you but you just need a magnifying glass, glasses etc.

In addition, the TC, frankly, isnt that much smaller than the Ipaq folks.

By the way, for those who are throwing the keyboard issue around:

http://www.ppcw.net/index.php?itemid=1251

Options, folks. Its all about options and expandability. I have a MemPlug sleeve that has a CF and a Memory Stick slot. I own a Sony DigCam and can pull the MS out, plug it in to the Ipaq and view the pics and transfer the pics to any PC via bluetooth or wifi wirelessly. I mean, how cool is that? Who needs the USB cable that came with the camera..lol.

This Keyboard is next after I upgrade my 5455 to PPC 2003.

Hey Blueblade:

If you're so amazed with PPC why are you bothering yourself with this discussion with a bunch of guys who prefer some devices that seem to you as Casio's digital diary...

Just keep on praising PPC and let us enjoy our medieval technology.

Hope you have noted the sarcasm in all of this...

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

Additionally, I think they did not compare the Toshiba because the major PPC handheld producer is HP and Toshiba is merely coming in, not to mention Dell.

On the other hand, lets face it the TC is made for corporate audiences and Palm thinks that they do not need many multimedia features (they may be wrong that I'll give you). So, if you want real comparisons between multimedia features I think you need to talk about bringing any PPC against the Clie family.

IMHO if you want to do so hurry up before Sony launches the new one...

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

Dell models sure as hell been around longers than T|C and h1910.

and E750 isn't that new either.

PPC against Clie post:

Look, the PPC does everything that the Clie does and vice versa

The Ipaq 5455 has full blown multimedia features + Bluetooth + WiFI + Expandability. The Clies and Palms DO NOT have all of these features combined into one unit.

That is the whole point to my original thought was that you cannot compare the TT, TC, Zire, M515, Clie or any other Palm OS based unit to the Ipaq 5455 unless it has, at minimum, an identical feature set.

None of them currently do. Period.

I agree with you about the impressive list of features of the iPaq you are mentioning. But you must agree that's the reason of its impressive size and weight.

The point here is that Palm and Sony have decided to produce handhelds for the corporate and multimedia user separatedly. This strategy being right or wrong is another issue.

Since the comparison is between a corporate palm and a do it all PPC then we must understand that PPC has more multimedia features not because it's superior technology. It's just due to Palm Solutions' lack of interest in adding them, lack/excess of market research or whatever other marketing reason you can come out with but that's a whole different story.

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

Totally agree.

A lot of the above points about ipaq 5455 features are correct. palm frequently comes up short of expectations nbecause they skimp on $5 worth of hardware (the m130 screen fiasco). Too bad the ipaq run that bloated dog of an OS. Id only we could reflash it with Palm OS.....It would still be a brick, but a decent brick:)

Actually, i'd still avoid it. "Infinite expansion option" is a phrase we here a lot from ipaq users. Yes - it true. But all new Palms could have infinite expansion options if Palm or a 3rd party harware developer deviced to make a UC sled that allowed CF or PCMCIA. But of course they wont because its one ugly, brick of a solution. Its no longer a 'mobile' device at that point. Which brings me to why ipaq expansion is such a joke....

yeah Sony uses Xscale which has built in SD and CF capability, guess what they do to it?

Guess how extensive Palm Inc support for BT SD card is for their devices?

do you think making a universal port and a driver system is a picnic?

Not even OS 6.0 will cure POS anemic driver availability.

RE: Here is a thought..
rsc1000 @ 5/21/2003 1:06:29 PM

A lot of the above points about ipaq 5455 features are correct. palm frequently comes up short of expectations nbecause they skimp on $5 worth of hardware (the m130 screen fiasco). Too bad the ipaq run that bloated dog of an OS. Id only we could reflash it with Palm OS.....It would still be a brick, but a decent brick:)

Actually, i'd still avoid it. "Infinite expansion option" is a phrase we here a lot from ipaq users. Yes - it true. But all new Palms could have infinite expansion options if Palm or a 3rd party harware developer deviced to make a UC sled that allowed CF or PCMCIA. But of course they wont because its one ugly, brick of a solution. Its no longer a 'mobile' device at that point. Which brings me to why ipaq expansion is such a joke....
------------------------------------------------

Really. I was a long time Palm user and jumped ship because of the expansion options. I have my 5455 with the MemPlug sleve in my front left pants pocket as I type this. How is that not mobile? Its not as much of a brick as you think.

The only reason you hear the expansion options from the ipaq users is because they are available. GPS, Memory, Keyboard, battery..some are consolidated. Sure, its slightly larger but its still mobile.

Its still kicks serious ass even if you think its a brick.

>>I have my 5455