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Comments on: Test Shows Tungsten T & C Outperform iPaq

Palm recently commission and independent testing lab to compare the Palm Tungsten T and C against, the HP iPAQ h1910 and h5450. The test compared battery life, wireless speed, storage efficiency and document handling. The results showed Palm Tungsten handhelds equaled or outperformed HP Pocket PC devices in all tests.
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Media

Sholey @ 5/20/2003 10:49:58 AM #
I wonder if other handheld sites will run this story! They always seem to tout the PPC as better performance
RE: Media
djh @ 5/20/2003 10:33:36 PM #
This is all very interesting but nothing tht would make me have the slightest interest in buying another Palm.

The only Palm OS device that I like is the Sony NX. Be interesting to see the new model when it arrives.

The Palm form factors (apart from the TT which seems to be on the way out) are basic horrible.

I really wish we could get a clamshell PPC sort of like an NX60, PPC2003, CF slot, SDIO slot, embedded BT and 802.11b and 128MB RAM.

Now that would be great!!!!

Cheers!!

RE: Media
asiayeah @ 5/21/2003 4:18:54 AM #
I've bet you won't get a PPC like the Sony NX form factors. All PPC just look and feel the same.

Tony

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: Media
RAMdŽd @ 5/21/2003 2:20:15 PM #
This is all very interesting but nothing tht would make me have the slightest interest in buying another Palm.

That's exactly the way I feel. About PPCs. After owning both a Palm and an iPAQ, I fail to see what all the fuss is about.

Even with the faster processors, docs to go opens faster than Pocket Word and Excel. Not to mention the loss of formatting.

I was impressed by the larger color screens, but that's not nearly enough to make me ever get another one for real, day to day work.

Larger and heavier, the general bulk of PPCs will keep me in the Palm camp for some time.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

RE: Media
Khris @ 5/22/2003 2:28:29 PM #
I've owned an iPaq as well as a number of different Palm devices. I currently have a TT and have no doubt that it out performs any PPC device out there.

The main reason for buying the TT over the other Tungsten devices is the form factor. I personally am not a fan of the thumb keyboards, and by not having my Grafitti/Jot area it just doesn't feel like a real Palm.

RE: Media
TTrules @ 5/23/2003 6:15:53 PM #
I agree, I love the formfactor on my TT

Tungsten T with Tungsten C Hardware = Great!

T.W.G @ 5/20/2003 10:52:21 AM #
Hi,

I can't imagine, I'm the 1st here :-)

Ok, after reviewing the "C" here in Germany I can say that I would love an Tungsten T style device without(!) Keyboard but WITH BLuetooth instead or together with Wi-Fi plus this ultracool Batterylife!

Greetings from Germany

Thomas
www.twgmusic.de

RE: Tungsten T with Tungsten C Hardware = Great!
Beavis @ 5/20/2003 3:21:59 PM #
..."I can't imagine, I'm the 1st here :-)"

You're not. Check again.



RE: Tungsten T with Tungsten C Hardware = Great!
rened @ 5/20/2003 3:57:09 PM #
Can't wait to read your review!
RE: Tungsten T with Tungsten C Hardware = Great!
Mr T @ 5/20/2003 5:09:24 PM #
Speaking of the review, when is PIC going to post their review? It's been over a month since the Tungsten C came out.......

RE: Tungsten T with Tungsten C Hardware = Great!
T.W.G @ 5/21/2003 12:23:00 PM #
Hey Guys,

the german review is online at
www.pdaforum.de

@beavis: Ok, I saw it after posting. So be cool :)

Thomas
www.twgmusic.de

Well, aint that somethin'....

xtremist5150 @ 5/20/2003 10:53:38 AM #
Shows how far Palm devices have come. Can you imagine running this test a year ago with an m505 instead? (shudder)

-----------------
"All I wanna do is a zoom zoom zoom and a boom boom." --Wrecks 'N Effects
RE: Well, aint that somethin'....
hkklife @ 5/20/2003 11:59:01 AM #
Well, year ago it'd actually have been an m515 but *shudder* nonetheless! ;-)

Remember back in the good old days when we considered the Palm V to Vx a quantum leap? 4 extra mhz of CPU speed, 8mb ram, and OS 3.5--those were the days!

RE: Well, aint that somethin'....
i @ 5/20/2003 1:23:28 PM #
Forget that, remember StreakHack? The amazing performance that gave all Palm III and V owners?
RE: Well, aint that somethin'....
MSTCrowT @ 5/21/2003 2:18:02 PM #
I still use a Palm Vx on a daily basis. While 8MB of storage isn't great, using QuickBits speeds it up some, and Afterburner oc's the CPU to 28MHz along with some other enhancements.

Again I'm not surprised...

i2oadi2unnei2 @ 5/20/2003 11:08:25 AM #
Whenever I hear/see an OS running under "WINDOWSxx", they hog too many resources i.e. memory, rah rah rah, etc. that's one factor why I stayed away from those ipaqs... *GRIN*

...|3eep |3eep!!...

Same here.
RAMdŽd @ 5/21/2003 2:14:19 PM #
that's one factor why I stayed away from those ipaqs...


I received an iPAQ as a gift, and it seemed a huge leap from a Palm V.

But one thing I noticed- just like real Windows, it always has app resources running after you close the window.

I turn the iPAQ on a couple of days of "rest" only to find a low battery warning and several apps running in the background.

The big screen is nice, but I really do prefer the Palm hardware and OS.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

woohoo!!!!!!!!!!

a3 @ 5/20/2003 12:26:15 PM #
I'm forwarding this article to all of my PPC owner friends...

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

On the other hand...

bookrats @ 5/20/2003 12:30:10 PM #
...I wonder in what areas the PPC did better than the Tungsten?

I'm assuming that Palm would probably not publicize sections of the report that should areas where the PPC performed better than the Palm.

That's perfectly OK -- they paid for the report, they should be able to decide what results get published (as long as they don't alter the data or obscure the results). Or they may have gone into it knowing what areas they were superior in, and concentrating on just the subjects that Palm was superior for tests.

Certainly interesting results. I'm on my 3rd Palm OS PDA, and have no plans to switch; but I'm always curious to see how things stack up between the two.

----

"I'm warning you ... if you kill me, they'll just send 008!"

Jeff Meyer

RE: On the other hand...
dhibbitts @ 5/20/2003 1:36:28 PM #
The iPAQ 54xx does cost $150.00USD more ($649.00 on HP's website vs. $499 on Palm's website) than the Tungsten/C, so I guess PPC wins there if more is better.


--
Daniel Hibbitts
Ann Arbor Palm OS Developers Group
Ann Arbor Palm OS Users Group
http://www.a2pug.org/

RE: On the other hand...
Islander @ 5/20/2003 4:24:08 PM #
Jeff I doubt they are not publishing everything. Its far more likely that they requested testing only in areas they knew they would win. I have no doubt the very same tests were ALREADY run by Palm in developing the TungC and a large goal was to be better in these specific ways. Thus they knew it was suprerior in these areas before these tests or they would have never commissioned it. These test were designed to have an indepentant lab tell the world what Palm already knew.

If there are areas in which the Ipaq is better (seems a pretty broad range of testing though) Palm knows it and will not ASK an independant entity to compare the two in such an area.

RE: On the other hand...
Mike Scott @ 5/20/2003 5:37:39 PM #
It would have been interesting to see them run some CPU intensive test, like total time to run the same large complex spreadsheet (or something).

RE: On the other hand...
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 10:20:16 PM #
It would be even more interesting to do continuous video stream using WiFi.



RE: On the other hand...
jtopf @ 5/21/2003 9:21:24 AM #
I disagree with the premise that since they paid for the results they get censor any information that does not agree with the marketing aim of the company. The whole idea and credibility behind independent tests is based on the fact that after commissioning the study the sponsor has no influence on the final report.

I agree that Palm probably had an excellent idea of how the results would turn out and that is why they designed the study in the manner that they did.

The medical literature is filled with company sponsored trials and it is often easy to spot how the company set up the study to benefit their product.

Joel Topf, MD

RE: On the other hand...
RAMdŽd @ 5/21/2003 2:27:56 PM #
That's perfectly OK -- they paid for the report, they should be able to decide what results get published (as long as they don't alter the data or obscure the results).

I agree. It's not what I want, but very few companies have done and will do otherwise. This is nothing new. This is basically advertising. There is no Surgeon General's warning required, so I expect none.

It takes independant testing for independant reasons to get more objectivity.

I have no plans of ever getting another PPC device until they improve their form factor, but I always like knowing what the pros and cons of any format/platform are.

We all have preferences and that's not a problem, as long as we know the difference between those and facts.

It helps reduce the juvenile "My PDA can beat up your PDA!" squabbles.

______________________________
An armed society is a polite society.

We're getting close. . .

sub_tex @ 5/20/2003 1:21:15 PM #
I've messed with the T|C and it's incredibly fast. You don't realize how fast it is until you jump back to practically any other PDA out there.

Granted, I was running the default palm apps which are tiny as hell and ran fast on 16Mhz, but still. The web speeds were nice as well.

But until we get some native file handling IN THE DEVICE as well as on the memory cards, the PPCs will still hold that over Palm devices' heads.

Give me no conversion for file types AND that speed and I'll wet myself.

RE: We're getting close. . .
sandbuck @ 5/20/2003 2:06:02 PM #
Both Documets to Go and Quickoffice now handle native Office filetypes.

RE: We're getting close. . .
IanJD @ 5/20/2003 2:17:08 PM #
>Both Documets to Go and Quickoffice now handle native Office filetypes.

DtG doesn't, yet.


RE: We're getting close. . .
Cutting Crew 2 @ 5/21/2003 2:01:15 PM #
Since March, Quickoffice Premier v7.0 has enabled Palm OS devices from OS3.5 forward to be able to access native Microsoft Word and Excel files from expansion storage cards, to receive these files via beaming or bluetooth transfer from laptops or PPCs, and to utilize forward-designed e-mail clients like SnapperMail for opening Native file e-mail attachments.

It is true that no similar solution exists on the market today for Palm OS handhelds.



---
Mike Compeau

RE: We're getting close. . .
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 3:53:40 PM #
Could someone beam over a Pocket Word or Pocket Excel file from a PPC to a PalmOS (5+) device and have your software deal with it just fine?

RE: We're getting close. . .
roseBlade @ 5/21/2003 5:33:34 PM #
the pocket word/excel has to be saved as "word" file in the save as button inside the ppc tho. Otherwise yes, they should work. I have no problem transfering pword/excell directly to friends laptop.

(warning: excrutiatingly slow for big file)

Benchmarketing

Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 1:37:54 PM #
Hmm...a Palm commissioned study shows Palm devices leading Pocket PC? I am STUNNED. What's next? Apple benchmarks showing Macs outperforming PCs? 8^|

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I really wish software/hardware developers would spend more time improving their products rather than talking smack about their competitors. I'm not impressed.

RE: Benchmarketing
dhibbitts @ 5/20/2003 1:45:11 PM #
These stuides are necessary as that is what each side (Palm and Microsoft) are bringing forward as arguments as to why their platform is superior.

Here's the link to the results:

http://www.veritest.com/clients/reports/palm/competitive.pdf

It is a good read.


--
Daniel Hibbitts
Ann Arbor Palm OS Developers Group
Ann Arbor Palm OS Users Group
http://www.a2pug.org/

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 1:58:52 PM #
Interesting read, but some aspects of these tests are misleading. Look at MP3 playback. Audio volume on the Tungten|T is anemic even at max. Yet the tests show it at 50%? Who is going to listen to MP3 music on a T|T at 50%? It's too weak at 100%.

Video? Sorry, but video on a Palm device is still a novelty at this point. I can't stand looking at choppy pixelated movie clips in Kinoma. How does that compare to PPC? Do the tests reflect quality?

These raw numbers don't tell the whole story.

RE: Benchmarketing
drac @ 5/20/2003 2:17:01 PM #
Choppy Kinoma?

Is that on a PalmOS 5 device?


The Kinoma stuff I've seen (which is not much, I'm not really interested in PDA video) has been silky-smooth.

According to the full report,
"Video playback was inconsistent across the devices, with the HP 1910 displaying poor refresh rates resulting in jerky, slide-show-like video instead of the smooth playback seen on the Palm devices and the iPAQ 5450."



--

http://users.sunbeach.net/alchar/misc/palm/perfect_pda.html

d r. a. c h a r l e s
barbados

RE: Benchmarketing
kezza @ 5/20/2003 2:17:26 PM #
Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 1:37:54 PM:
> Hmm...a Palm commissioned study shows Palm devices
> leading Pocket PC? I am STUNNED. What's next? Apple
> benchmarks showing Macs outperforming PCs? 8^|

actually, apple's been doing that for at least the last 3 years, probably longer. since the introduction of the G3 powerpc chip with RISC processing, apple computers routinely outperform PCs at the same Mhz, and even when the apple Mhz is lower, particularly in the graphics arena. In fact, it was a major selling point on the the apple website for years.
i couldn't find the studies themselves from a few years ago on the apple website, but here's what they're touting now:
"The PowerPC G4 processor has been designed for unparalleled efficiency and performance. It can accomplish more tasks than Pentium processors in the same amount of time because of its short pipeline and the vector processing strengths of the Velocity Engine."
from http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com

RE: Benchmarketing
drac @ 5/20/2003 2:21:24 PM #
Oh, and although I'll agree that the TT's audio would be improved by more volume, I should note that I listen to it at 50% sometimes. ;)

Chalk it up to preference.

PalmOS may be making inroads into multimedia functionality, but they are still not flawless multimedia machines- which is fine by me.

--

http://users.sunbeach.net/alchar/misc/palm/perfect_pda.html

d r. a. c h a r l e s
barbados

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 2:22:32 PM #
Yes, that is what I experience on my Zire 71. Every video I've downloaded or converted via Kinoma producer looks pixelated and VERY low quality. Refresh rate is fine, but the overall quality sucks. PPC is still way ahead of PalmOS in video playback. We need a TRUE video player, like RealOne, QuickTime, or Windows Media (yeah...like that's going to happen anytime soon). Kinoma is crude and primitive.

RE: Benchmarketing
iJITSU @ 5/20/2003 2:37:48 PM #
Sony's movie player renders excellent video, MUCH better than Kinoma. Too bad it only works on Sony Clies.

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 2:46:10 PM #
> Sony's movie player renders excellent video, MUCH better than Kinoma. Too bad it only works on Sony Clies.

Yes, it is the best PalmOS solution I've seen. Enough to match PPC. Unfortunately, it is proprietary. :-(

RE: Benchmarketing
rsc1000 @ 5/20/2003 2:51:05 PM #
>>Every video I've downloaded or converted via Kinoma producer looks pixelated and VERY low quality. Refresh rate is fine, but the overall quality sucks. PPC is still way ahead of PalmOS in video playback.

The answer is coming in the form of MMPlayer. They added some video to 1.1 and added mpeg4 / divx codecs to 1.3. They have synchronization issues (they added mpeg4/divx before fixing these so that they could deal with the sync issues in a generic/robust way that would wrk with all codecs) - but these are betas. They are supposed to release 1.4 in the next day or so - it fixes the synch issues seen in the above betas. Even with the jerkiness in the betas (1/2 sec of smooth video / 1/2 sec of delay on some videos) - it is clear that the quality of the video itself greatly outshines kinoma AND it uses native file format (no silly conversions).

Again - these are betas. 2.0 will fully support video and streaming(!). Still - these guys move VERY FAST with implementing and releasing new features (the 1st audio only version was released a couple of months ago and was the only app aside from RealOne to freely support MP3). This is the app to watch - can't wait for 1.4.

RE: Benchmarketing
JKingGrim @ 5/20/2003 2:52:54 PM #
My IIIxe renders video fine.

RE: Benchmarketing
Scott R @ 5/20/2003 2:54:52 PM #
You did need to take a commissioned study with a grain of salt and also wonder why other types of things weren't tested. I have no doubt that when Palm requested that certain types of things be tested, they already knew what the results would be (roughly). One of the things that I was disappointed to see in this report (and which I see all over the place in device reviews/comparisons) is setting the brightness levels to maximum on a set of devices and comparing battery life. Few devices have the same brightness level when set to maximum, so they really should set them to the highest equivalent brightness level.

Scott

http://goodthatway.com

RE: Benchmarketing
macshimidh @ 5/20/2003 3:01:44 PM #
Kinoma on my 144MHz TT blows the doors off of WMP and a slew of third-party video players on the 400 MHz Dell Axim which I ended up returning before the 30 day deadline. The TT also won hands-down on the clarity of sound both in recording, and playback through the built-in speaker. If the PPC could have kept up on the multimedia front, Dell wouldn't have lost my money ;-)

I carry around the trailer for the Pirates of the Caribbean movie as a demo piece on my Tungsten, and it never fails to drop jaws, even among PPC users. Then again, I converted at a high frame rate and parity, with good quality sound.

RE: Benchmarketing
rogerkang @ 5/20/2003 3:43:40 PM #
I don't understand why you would be getting playback that is so pixelated, foofighter.

Using Kinoma on my Clie (N760C at that!), it is very, smooth...and the graphics are great.

RE: Benchmarketing
cbowers @ 5/20/2003 3:55:10 PM #
As a T-C owner, I've seen the pixelation in Kinoma as well. It appears that in order to save file size the fast moving portions have the information in them reduced. The scenes with rich detail are the static portions. Which in theory makes sense in an MP3 audio kind of way, but it seems to be taken way to far...

The result is apparent on both pre-made trailers from Sony, and one's I incoded with the Kinoma producer from the T-C.

Performance is obviously there with ridiculously high potential framerates, it's just to pixelated for my liking.

I'll have another look with MMPlayer I guess.

RE: Benchmarketing
Edward Green @ 5/20/2003 4:45:24 PM #
Hmm, I get great video on my n770c. There is an issue with any fixed bit rate system with pixelation in action scenes, indeed my Digital Cable does the same sometimes. However I am very happy with the full Matrix Reloaded trailer on Kinoma (encoded to my own settings).

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk
RE: Benchmarketing
Altema @ 5/20/2003 4:57:23 PM #
Foofighter, I agree with the choppiness/grainy issues. I guess that to be expected though, as all the samples have the bit rate, and frame rate, and the audio compression, AND the audio sampling rate reduced as a sacrifice on the altar of file size. The version of the Kinoma Producer that comes with the Z71 (and T|C?) does not give you control of the encoding either, so you get pretty much the same results when you do it yourself.

The default settings are a far cry from optimal as you can see below...

Default for T|T:
FPS=15
Bit rate=640 kbps
Audio sample rate=22.050 khz
Compression ratio=2:1
Audio boost=none

With the full version, you can adjust the quality accordingly, but I've seen samples encoded at 12 and even 10 FPS. At that rate, you may as well rename it to JPS for Jerks Per Second.

Now I've gotten good results by making the necessary adjustments, but then file size takes a big hit. Julie (The Gadgeteer) had the same complaints, so I sent her a few with improved quality. But guess what? I still had to compromise slightly on the bit rate and audio just so I could email the files! She said they were smooth, but still grainy. With her being a balanced and reasonable person, I left it at that because using full quality would result in files that would not fit my mailbox. For my own use I can jack up the settings, but it's not something easily shared. Still, even at max quality, there is an "edginess" to the images. Not bad unless you look close, but I think the PPC WMP does a better job of smoothing out the individual frame images so the look nicer at the lower bit rates.

One thing I do know, is that it's not the hardware anymore. 22khz compressed ADPCM audio on a device with CD quality audio? We won't even talk about frame rate! At 15 fps, the T|T is just loafing.

BTW regarding the audio; I do listen to the T|T at 50% or less at times, but your headphone selection is very important. Get a set of headphone where the sensitivity is less than 94Db and 100% won't be enough. I had to audition several pairs to find a decent set with good frequency response and good sensitivity. Quite a drastic change from my mixer that will BLOW a set of headphones, plus your ears in the process. I must add though, that the audio quality of a T|T with the latest audio patch is VERY good. Better than my both of my Sony MiniDisc players.

RE: Benchmarketing
M3wThr33 @ 5/20/2003 5:22:16 PM #
On my Zire71 Kinoma works fine. A 14MB episode of Spongebob Squarepants(Reef Blowers) plays great. I have no complaints.
And after seeing ScummVM with Monkey Island 1, I am REALLY impressed with it.

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.
RE: Benchmarketing
jjsoh @ 5/20/2003 5:59:14 PM #
Altema

"At that rate, you may as well rename it to JPS for Jerks Per Second.

After reading this line... I've realized that I am a dirty, dirty man. ;)

In all seriousness, I was quite interested in your comment about T|T's audio. Which headphone (or is it earphone?) are you using? I'm no audiophile, but I'm sure I'm using low quality ones because the sound output is low. I'd like to get new ones, but wouldn't know where to look.

Anyone out there with suggestions?

Jim

RE: Benchmarketing
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 7:57:05 PM #
comparing kinoma to .mpeg is like comparing .gif to .jpeg. And declare the machine that run .gif is superior because the picture shows up faster.

heh...

RE: Benchmarketing
Altema @ 5/20/2003 8:00:18 PM #
Just volume is not necessarily an indication of quality. I've had some that were loud and sounded like junk, and some not-so-loud that were good quality. The flip side is also true. Now that you ask, I'm amazed that there are no model numbers on any of mine except the Koss.

My favorite headphones were my former Koss lightweight folding set which is now out of production. They have a stainless steel band, and I could adjust the pressure on the ear itself with little pads that rested on your head above the ear. The kids destroyed them, which is why I don't have the model #. The sound quality was excellent if you can find a pair still in stores. I'll see if I can find the model number somewhere else.

I currently have 2 Koss, 3 Sony, and one RadioShack set. I know, I'm embarrased to mention RadioShack, but at least you could listen to them before you buy, and most stores will even open the packages for you to try 'em out. I got tired of buying a set at other stores, then going through the whole exchange process.

ANYWAYS... The Koss TD-61 sounds good and is accurate, but they are not real sensitive. I use these as my mix phones on my road PA system for which they are great. On the T|T they are OK as long as you don't need them real loud. The other Koss are the lightweight blister pack ones you get for $14.99. The sound is low AND bad.

On the Sony side, I use the "studio" headset which is silver, medium sized, and I can flip the earpiece over while doing live mixing. They sound as good as the Koss TD-61, maybe even a little clearer, and are slightly louder. The other Sony sets are the cheap walkman type. The sound is, umm... slightly better than holding two Palm III's up to your head, but nowhere near as loud. They ARE more stylish though :)

The RS set is a $19.99 affair of medium size, black with blue accents, rotary volume control, and a mono/stereo selector switch built into the cord. Although slightly lacking in the bass range (but still warm enough to be pleasant), they are clean and detailed in the sound quality. Volume is very good with a sensitivity of around 98Db if I recall correctly. Having the T|T at max volume with these is loud enough to make you turn it down or take them off after a few seconds.

I don't have the packing or model number for them either, but they should be easy to pick out by the rotary volume instead of the typical slider volume controls. Also hard to miss is the extra long cord; this cord is so long that you could leave your Palm in the car and listen from the porch. Heck, it's so long that someone could steal you car, and would get halfway down the street before your head got yanked off!

Seriously, there are probably a few dozen sets that would work well with the T|T, but I wear out, break, and lose them too much to invest in the high end ones. A lot of them also come with the 1/4 inch plug and need an adapter. It's just gonna get stuffed im my audio bag anyways.

RE: Benchmarketing
Timothy Rapson @ 5/20/2003 8:19:02 PM #
To Dr. a. c h a r l e s barbados;

Your description of the perfect PDA is very close to mine. I would dump the blue tooth and include a camera. I think we are getting very close to a standard PDA design.


RE: Benchmarketing
Altema @ 5/20/2003 9:31:07 PM #
"comparing kinoma to .mpeg is like comparing .gif to .jpeg. And declare the machine that run .gif is superior because the picture shows up faster."

You are right in perceiving that the typical Kinoma clip is not equal to the typical mpeg clip. The typical data rate is lower for Kinoma with many being in the 320 kbps range. Well, of course you device is going to fly with less data to process. However, if you put aside your preferences and look at the amount of raw data being processed by the CPU, you can get the amount of actual work pretty close by adjusting the encoding.

Just to settle matters in my own mind, I did such an experiment a couple months ago, matching the kb per second, frame rate, window size, etc. so that the amount of data processed was equvalent. The HUGE performance gap went away, but was still there. Instead of Kinoma running at 300fps, it was more like 154fps. Respectable, but not absurdly high like it was assumed they all should be.

Still, you have to realize that the T|T has a built-in DSP, and the T|C is just plain fast with the OS optimized near-perfect for the processor.

The overall clock speed does not tell the whole tale, as the T|T memory tests clock out at 588Mhz, and the T|C does the same test at 1.6Ghz. Yes, that's Ghz, not Mhz. Yeah, it's got a big battery for very good reasons!

RE: Benchmarketing
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 10:21:51 PM #
They are TWO entirely different compression algorithm!

.mpeg/.wmv are scalable upon processor power, Kinoma does not.

Let's wait until the mmplayer come out and see how fast it goes. I'll be plenty impressed if it can pass 20fps on same .mpeg rip. (if it doesn't crash at all that is)

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 11:26:08 PM #
I use a pair of SONY MDR-G52. Don't know what the specs are exactly, but the output is very good. I also have a pair of earbuds which came with my iPod, but those are about as worthless as stuffing cotton in your ears.

Altema, what SONY Studio headphones are you referring to? Which model is it, what is the pricetag?


RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/20/2003 11:27:12 PM #
>>>>>According to the full report,
"Video playback was inconsistent across the devices, with the HP 1910 displaying poor refresh rates resulting in jerky, slide-show-like video instead of the smooth playback seen on the Palm devices and the iPAQ 5450."

-- whaaat?! I personally downloaded the 240x320 Molly Star Racer MPEG "trailer" and ran it on an hp 1910 at CompUSA. *No way* could it be described as anything like the weird experience above! It was fluid. It was GREAT! I was impressed. I wonder about this report...

Want to try Molly for yourself?

You need Macromedia Flash 6 to access this site:

http://www.sparx.com

-skip- intro!

choose British flag for English language

In the search box at left, type MOLLY

When you see her picture, center, click on it

In the left panel, scroll down, see MEDIUM QUALITY 8MB
video (unless you really want to try a 20MB file!) --
RIGHT CLICK/SAVE TARGET AS... and save to your HD.

RE: Benchmarketing
Altema @ 5/20/2003 11:30:56 PM #
"They are TWO entirely different compression algorithm!"

Yes, and your point is?

If one device can process and display the same amount of raw graphical data three times faster than another device...

I can see it now in a coast to coast road race between a Jaguar and a Suburban. The truck driver pulls up next to the Jag, who has been sitting there almost a full day, and shouts "Yeah, but I had my windows open!"

If that is not enough, lets throw out the OS difference. Let's try identical OS, identical applications, identical functions, but with a different processor. Such a test was done publicly in front of a crowd of spectators; one PPC equipped with the TI OMAP at 175Mhz, the other PPC equipped with an Intel Xscale at 400Mhz. The TI OMAP processor walked away. No codecs were involved. The processor does make a difference, and I can also add that the OS makes a difference. I have both side by side. They seemed on par when I had an M515 in regards to speed in some things like opening ebooks and crunching spreadsheets. Now that I've become accoustomed to the T|T, my PPC is agonizingly slow. The Mhz numbers say it should be the other way around, but reality is a different story.

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 11:33:20 PM #
Mike, how could you have watched this video on a store demo model HP1910? It doesn't have Windows Media Player installed in ROM.

RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/20/2003 11:36:57 PM #
It was Pocket TV, boyo!

I lie not!

I d/led that and put it on the 1910.

RE: Benchmarketing
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 11:39:51 PM #
little details always kill don't they?
RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/20/2003 11:40:52 PM #
Hell, if the PPC had done crap, I would've said so. In fact, two PPCs do crap when it comes to certain types of MPEGs: the ViewSonic V35 and the Toshiba e75x. Apparently they use the same screen technology and certain MPEGs (the pulled Spiderman trailer with the World Trade Center) look *awful* on it -- while they look just fine on the 1910 and iPaq 39xx. Ah, the wonders of technology...

RE: Benchmarketing
Hotoru @ 5/21/2003 12:16:59 AM #
I know that one day this will be commonplace.. But right now, what does video on a palm really matter to the average user. I have a demo the Porsche Boxster on my T-T with Kinoma and the only thing I use it for is to show off to my colleagues. I can't belive someone really returned a handheld because it would not do video fast enough. It would take as long to upload a 30 minute ?movie to the memory card as it would to watch it... once?
Maybe if you were using it to demo a product or something.. but wouldn't you want a larger screen for that purpose?

Ok.. flame ahead.. so I am the only one in the dark ages who isn't watching Saving Private Ryan in widescreen 2" color :)

Hotoru

RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 12:28:26 AM #
There are people who have ripped The Matrix to put on a Microdrive. I'm not one of them. I have personal uses for video.

RE: Benchmarketing
Scott R @ 5/21/2003 12:39:53 AM #
"I can't belive someone really returned a handheld because it would not do video fast enough. It would take as long to upload a 30 minute ?movie to the memory card as it would to watch it... once?"

Blasphemer!

http://goodthatway.com

RE: Benchmarketing
Altema @ 5/21/2003 12:40:02 AM #
I don't think I'll be getting a bag of popcorn and sitting down in front of a 2 inch screen. However, I do have a 1 hour video my kids love, and those fight scenes from the Matrix are alway entertaining. My wife has a more legitimate use: video of their dance rehearsals. Any question about how a certain part went? Problem solved as they pass it around despite the cruddy sound. Also, going to the hospital and taking a video taped message from a loved one can really make someone's day.

RE: Benchmarketing
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 12:55:09 AM #
Do you think people will find out any usefull apps for video on handheld overnight?

It will take times for somebody to figure out what's the use of it, developer to write the tools, and somebody provide a service.

why do you think there is no video service like mazingo for Palm? or video dial up sever like pocket presentation?

The same things happen with .mp3, and look how much trouble Palm is trying to get T|T up to snuff with mp3.

Do you think if there is a hot wireless video service going online in christmas, Palm can immediately jump into action and plug their device into that service? Yeah, I bet It'll take them another half year to patch the handheld, release a new model with better memory handling for streaming video, better wireless stack.. etc etc....(ust like .mp3)

but hey, people should be happy with basic organizer apps only right? who needs all these fancy schmancy stuffs.

(and people wonder why T|T doesn't sell.)

RE: Benchmarketing
gfunkmagic @ 5/21/2003 1:21:14 AM #
Quote:
"Yeah, I bet It'll take them another half year to patch the handheld, release a new model with better memory handling for streaming video, better wireless stack.. etc etc....(ust like .mp3)

but hey, people should be happy with basic organizer apps only right? who needs all these fancy schmancy stuffs."

Hey bluehemoriod,

Again you don't what you're talking about. Streaming video has been possilbe on PalmOS of very long time now using Firepublisher enterprise sever! I'm tellin ya need to lay off the ganja or youre' brain will...er...hell I guess it to late for you anway...Long live rasta mon!

RE: Benchmarketing
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 1:51:20 AM #
does that proprietary codec with no sound even run on OS 5.0?
RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 2:06:43 AM #
Speaking of mobile video and limitations posed by internal flash memory, I LONG for the day when we see handhelds with mini hard drives built-in. I'm getting tired of PDAs, as they are currently designed. Although the Zire 71 has nearly twice the internal storage as my old M505, I somehow have less space for my apps and data.

As I look at my iPod (10gig HD), with PIM functionality, games, and various other goodies, I can't help but wonder if this isn't the direction PDAs should be moving.

RE: Benchmarketing
sandbuck @ 5/21/2003 6:44:11 AM #
>> My favorite headphones were my former Koss lightweight folding set which is now out of production. They have a stainless steel band, and I could adjust the pressure on the ear itself with little pads that rested on your head above the ear. The kids destroyed them, which is why I don't have the model #. The sound quality was excellent if you can find a pair still in stores. I'll see if I can find the model number somewhere else.

These fantastic headphones are far from discontinued.
Go to www.froogle.com (not google) and type "porta pro". They're all over the place.


RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 7:26:25 AM #
>>As I look at my iPod (10gig HD), with PIM functionality, games, and various other goodies, I can't help but wonder if this isn't the direction PDAs should be moving.


Oh, Foo! Thanks for the segue!

"2) Late in 2002, when ARMed/BeOSed Palms start to appear, Sony will introduce the first Palm OS PDA with a built-in hard drive. Sony will use -- or will have licensed or developed in-house a version of -- the tiny 5GB Hitachi hard drive currently found in the Apple iPod. [...]

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=2754

RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/21/2003 9:56:08 AM #
Why do we dare question an independent lab's results? as a matter of fact why do we dare question their results against our own tiny, subjective experience with a demo iPaq.

IMHO, I'll stick with the lab test instead of any personal opinion.

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 10:23:16 AM #
Baaaah, baaaaah, baaaaah.

RE: Benchmarketing
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 10:43:48 AM #
yeah but microdrives doesn't last. Look at the failure rate of IBM's microdrives. They are very dysmal, it won't last 2 years with average physical handling. Plus there are already 6GB CF, tho the cost are astronomical, but by the time they cram 10GB of microdrive to a CF< the 6GB CF will be cheaper than microdrive.
RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 11:32:19 AM #
>>>>Why do we dare question an independent lab's results? as a matter of fact why do we dare question their results against our own tiny, subjective experience with a demo iPaq.

>>>>IMHO, I'll stick with the lab test instead of any personal opinion.


-- yeah, why BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES when you can have someone else implant their idea of reality into your (in your case, obviously tiny) head.

Tch, tch. Neo needs to speak to you.

RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/21/2003 12:06:22 PM #
Baaaah, baaaaah, baaaaah.

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 12:34:18 PM #
Oh. As if you know what that was the onomatopoeia of. You obviously don't.

RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/21/2003 12:57:57 PM #
Nope, not a clue about the onomatopoeia issue. But I think I'm gonna now very soon... (and as usual it will come along with some of Mike Cane's insults).

On the other hand, "yeah, why BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES when you can have someone else implant their idea of reality into your head." means that I should prefer MIKE CANE'S OWN SUBJECTIVE EYES instead of THE LAB'S OWN OBJECTIVE EYES?

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

RE: Benchmarketing
robrecht @ 5/21/2003 1:16:17 PM #
Does the personal use of video include sheep videos?

Thanks, robrecht
RE: Benchmarketing
Altema @ 5/21/2003 1:18:00 PM #
Sandbuck, thanks a million! I'm ordering a set ASAP.

RE: Benchmarketing
Sleuth255 @ 5/21/2003 1:32:23 PM #
Foo, you've got your Kinoma quality settings wrong. That's the only thing that can explain your pixelation. Kinoma blows away my brother's Ipaq 5450. We both had the same Matrix trailer loaded when I ran into him last week and mine is movie quality. His was marred by the iPAQ's low resolution screen. Here's my producer settings:

format: cinepak mobile
fps: 30
size in pixels: 320X240
bitrate (this affects pixelation) 1000kbps

Your Zire should have no problems running 30FPS @ 1000kbps.


RE: Benchmarketing
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 1:55:27 PM #
wait until a good .mpeg player shows up for palm, then you'll yell uhh... .mpeg blows away kinoma pictures out of the water dude...

but of course since there is no such thing, Kinoma is declared better than .mpeg. Same reasoning used in Transreflective btw.

uhh,, T|T screen blows everything out of the water dude, even thos pathetic iPAQs. But now that T|C and Z71 come out, everybody sings different tune: uhhh.... transreflective rulezzz...

*YAwww...nnn... *

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 2:03:41 PM #
Well one thing I have discovered by playing with Kinoma settings...DO NOT convert movies in FULL SCREEN. They look terrible. I just down-sampled a Quicktime movie to "Large", and that did make noticable improvements in quality. However, I stand by my conviction. Quality still isn't as good as what I get from my Axim. Framerates are much better, mind you, but overall quality is still subpar. I see lots of visual artifacts and pixelation.

And I especially dislike Kinoma itself, both the PalmOS client and Desktop component. Pure Hackware! Ugly vintage PalmOS UI, clunky desktop middleware, draconian setup. Give me a REAL video player...no conversions....no PDB files...just pure MPEG playback.

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 2:12:37 PM #
> uhh,, T|T screen blows everything out of the water dude, even thos pathetic iPAQs. But now that T|C and Z71 come out, everybody sings different tune: uhhh.... transreflective rulezzz...

Oh, the T|T apologists are still lurking around, denying the obvious...."I just went to Circuit City and looked at the Z71 and T|C screens. I'm not impressed at all. This is pure hype, my T|T blew away every one of them. A group of people standing nearby all agreed...Reflective RULEZ!!!"

The best part is, these idiots don't even have a say in the matter. By the end of this year (hell, probably the end of this summer) you won't even find PDAs with Reflective LCDs. I hope these T|T fanboys really mean what they say about loving their reflective screens, because they are going to be married to those T|Ts for the rest of their lives. Reflective LCDs are heading for the Smithsonian.

RE: Benchmarketing
gfunkmagic @ 5/21/2003 2:25:43 PM #
Quote:

"uhh,, T|T screen blows everything out of the water dude, even thos pathetic iPAQs. But now that T|C and Z71 come out, everybody sings different tune: uhhh.... transreflective rulezzz...

Oh, the T|T apologists are still lurking around, denying the obvious...."I just went to Circuit City and looked at the Z71 and T|C screens. I'm not impressed at all. This is pure hype, my T|T blew away every one of them. A group of people standing nearby all agreed...Reflective RULEZ!!!"

The best part is, these idiots don't even have a say in the matter. By the end of this year (hell, probably the end of this summer) you won't even find PDAs with Reflective LCDs. I hope these T|T fanboys really mean what they say about loving their reflective screens, because they are going to be married to those T|Ts for the rest of their lives. Reflective LCDs are heading for the Smithsonian."

Foo, you do realize that quote was from ska don't you? Anyway, when I called your pals at ppcts "fanboys", they conveniently decided to ban me. Its ironic that you get away saying that over here...

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 2:29:12 PM #
What's wrong with saying it here. It's the truth. If you think otherwise, you haven't been following some of the postings by T|T owners. When the Zire 71 and T|C were announced (and the media gushed over the beautiful new displays) a wave of nervous defensive denial went up from T|T owners.

"Yeah, but how good are those Transflective screes outdoors? I use my PDA outdoors 90% of the time"

Such nonsense. What are these people....lumberjacks?

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 2:33:41 PM #
By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me.

RE: Benchmarketing
roseBlade @ 5/21/2003 2:43:46 PM #
People can't handle the truth.
RE: Benchmarketing
palmhiker @ 5/21/2003 3:16:50 PM #
kezza wrote: "actually, apple's been doing that for at least the last 3 years, probably longer. since the introduction of the G3 powerpc chip with RISC processing, apple computers routinely outperform PCs at the same Mhz, and even when the apple Mhz is lower, particularly in the graphics arena. In fact, it was a major selling point on the the apple website for years...."

Actually, a recent review at Digital Media Net pretty much shoots the "Apple is faster than Intel" theory. Not that I have anything against Apple (I use both Apple and PC), but this is an interesting comparison by an Apple supporter:

http://www.mediaworkstation.com/2002/05_may/features/cw_aeshowdown.htm

Sorry for the long link, makeashorterlink.com is not coming up today.


RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 3:46:31 PM #
FYI, there's also http://www.tinyurl.com -- which I've switched to. It's simply better. (Hmmm... whose trademark is *that* sentence?)

>>>On the other hand, "yeah, why BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES when you can have someone else implant their idea of reality into your head." means that I should prefer MIKE CANE'S OWN SUBJECTIVE EYES instead of THE LAB'S OWN OBJECTIVE EYES?

-- it's quite amazing how the ignorant can just get themselves in deeper. Can you not READ?! Why should *I* believe their report when my own eyes contradicts their assertions? And why not try it for *yourself* instead of sucking on your thumb and blindy following a surrogate Mommy or Daddy? (Or, in your case, Foster of each...)

And, Foo, you'd better be careful. If you notch it up a setting or two, people will start believing that I've stolen your login and am posting under your name! You've used the words "idiots" and "fanboys." Well, of course I approve -- but that should scare you! >>evil laughter!<<

RE: Benchmarketing
gfunkmagic @ 5/21/2003 3:52:08 PM #
Quote: "By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me."

It was basically just using the term "PPC fanboys" that pissed them off. For the actual reason, I suggest you ask J Dunn or EdH, even though I'm pretty sure they'll tell you some other ficiton/lie. In short, whatever you call the "lumberjacks" or PalmOS carzies that exist here, the same goes for the posters at ppcts and etc. The main difference is that the PPC users are allowed discuss, flame or whatever here unlike ppcts. Quite frankly, it's quite closed minded of the admin there not to allow opposing views from people who want ot debate and argue misrepresentations (of which are many btw) that frequently are made over there. And also, I'm am not the only one who was banned either FYI. Thus, there might be tons of immature posts by zealots, flames etc on PIC, but at least there isn't the type of rabid, broad censorship that occurs elsewhere...

RE: Benchmarketing
roseBlade @ 5/21/2003 5:10:18 PM #
you didn't know anything about dissapearing posts do you? lol

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 5:36:10 PM #
> you didn't know anything about dissapearing posts do you? lol

Dissappearing posts? I thought that was simply an urban legend. You know, like mutants living under the city in sewers, alien abductions, Jane Fonda's acting career. ;-)


RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 5:40:09 PM #
> And, Foo, you'd better be careful. If you notch it up a setting or two, people will start believing that I've stolen your login and am posting under your name! You've used the words "idiots" and "fanboys." Well, of course I approve -- but that should scare you! >>evil laughter!<<

Just doing my part to stomp out sense and sensibility. ;-)


RE: Benchmarketing
abosco @ 5/21/2003 8:26:21 PM #
"By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me."

I was banned as well. Obvious reasons, really, but I had a good run.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: Benchmarketing
roseBlade @ 5/21/2003 8:51:32 PM #
So how was your little adventure in pocketmatrix and pocketpcpassion? ;)
RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 11:12:19 PM #
Well my opinions have gotten me into trouble a few times. I haven't been banned, but I'm certainly not welcome there. They tolerate me though. 8^|

RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/22/2003 10:01:46 AM #
Hey Mike:

I must say that your yada yada insult yada yada is very annoying. Specially the yada yada part.

Anyway, I'll be seeing you around...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/22/2003 12:00:07 PM #
By the way, I was referring to PocketPCthoughts. I just went back and read my post and noticed it may look to the casual viewer that I was replying to Roseblade, which I was not.

Move along...nothing more to see here.

RE: Benchmarketing
roseBlade @ 5/22/2003 12:19:21 PM #
gotta keep that public image nice and shiny eh?

------
hey this roseBlade garb is really awesome. It has the power to fend of boyish barb. I think it can jinx them with cootie power subconciously. lol

RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/22/2003 12:36:02 PM #
> gotta keep that public image nice and shiny eh?

No, if everyone thought I was replying to YOUR post, they would have assumed I'm not welcome at PocketMatrix and PocketPCPassion. I was talking about PPCT.

RE: Benchmarketing
roseBlade @ 5/22/2003 12:46:07 PM #
I think it was pretty obvious that I was talking to Bosco. He got flamed so bad in pocket matrix, I think the board is about to hack his computer. lol
He behaves in PPC passion pretty well so far tho'
RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/22/2003 1:46:05 PM #
>>Hey Mike:

>>I must say that your yada yada insult yada yada is very annoying. Specially the yada yada part.

>>Anyway, I'll be seeing you around...


-- you wish.
_________________________________
Guarde sus manos a se pervertido


RE: Benchmarketing
Altema @ 5/22/2003 2:49:43 PM #
"Altema, what SONY Studio headphones are you referring to? Which model is it, what is the pricetag?"

Foo Fighter, they are the Sony MDR V300 headphones and run about $35 to $40.

RE: Benchmarketing
abosco @ 5/22/2003 3:43:32 PM #
Wait what? I've never even VISITED PocketMatrix. I just recently signed up for PocketPC Passion, but I haven't even posted anything. I think you're talking about the wrong guy. Maybe someone stole my username over there or something, who knows.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/22/2003 3:59:57 PM #
> Guarde sus manos a se pervertido

Doesn't that mean..."Keep your hands dirty". Or something to that effect?

RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/22/2003 4:17:47 PM #
Actually it does not mean anything.

Guarde=keep
sus=your
manos=hands
a=to
se= no meaning
pervertido=pervert

Anyway, Mike good try. But keep the insults coming in english...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

RE: Benchmarketing
abosco @ 5/22/2003 4:23:47 PM #
"Keep your hands to yourself, pervert!"

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/22/2003 4:26:11 PM #
Bosco:

Thanks for the translation!

Sorry to bother and not trying to offend you (though some guys get offended very easy) could you please tell me what is "Top Non-Mods". I'm not from the US so maybe that is why I don't understand that expression.

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

RE: Benchmarketing
abosco @ 5/22/2003 4:26:55 PM #
"Try to keep your words smooth and sweet so that they go easier when I stuff them down your throat."

Sorry man, but Mike's nads are unbustable. Better stick to English so I don't have to confuse myself stumbling over three languages.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/22/2003 4:34:41 PM #
Well, actually Bosco the phrase is not very harsh: it is not "when I stuff them down your throat" it is when you have to swallow them. It is just a lessson that I've been learning for a long time now...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.
RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/22/2003 4:52:44 PM #
That makes sense. Anyway, back to topic.
_______________________________________
Huelo como pescados

RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/22/2003 4:56:37 PM #
JAJAJAJA
RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/22/2003 4:58:57 PM #
> Foo Fighter, they are the Sony MDR V300 headphones and run about $35 to $40.

Thanks, I'll pick up a pair.
_____________________________
Mis pantalones se están sintiendo divertidos

RE: Benchmarketing
abosco @ 5/22/2003 5:05:41 PM #
Foo, you gettin' some or something? You smell like fish, your pants are fun... I can put 2 and 2 together. ;)

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
RE: Benchmarketing
Foo Fighter @ 5/22/2003 5:25:31 PM #
LOL!

RE: Benchmarketing
mikecane @ 5/22/2003 10:40:20 PM #
Thanks, Bosco. I thought babelfish had failed me. Leave it to you to bring sense when the other fellow can't!
_____________________
Pesque que los pantalones del desgaste son apuro
Pesque eso sin los pantalones son peor

RE: Benchmarketing
abosco @ 5/23/2003 12:04:11 AM #
Thank you very much, I'll be here all week. Be sure to tip your moderator on the way out.

____________________________
Enough with the damn fish!

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: Benchmarketing
a3 @ 5/23/2003 8:49:58 AM #
Ok Mike if you continue hurting my native language then I must surrender. Your spanish is awful. Face it, you can only do the yada yada insult stuff right.

Anyway this has turn into a boring conversation I'll wait for another topic to continue...

Here is a thought..

kstedman1 @ 5/20/2003 3:36:03 PM #
First off, the TCs screen is smaller, you cannot turn the screen in landscape mode to read more information as the T/Cs screen is square. This is a huge asset with the Ipaq.

Second, there is NO built in voice recorder and NO stereo headphone jack on the T/C. Yes folks, those Mp3s will sound like crap on the 2.5 mm mono jack and you have to buy an accessory to record messages. Great business PDA huh?

Third, why no mention of the webpage that was tested in the download. This is one of those "your milage may vary" bandwith issues that cannot be spread across the board. I have no doubt that the T/C is probably faster in certain instances. However, I have been able to tie into my PC and download full graphical webpages with a bluetooth connection certainly faster than 28 seconds. Oh, no bluetooth in the T/C of course which is another question.

I give Palm props for improving their PDAs abilities but if you really want to do a side by side comparison, don't be so selective.

T/C has:

No Mp3 (in stereo)
No Larger Screen or Virtual Grafitti for that matter.
No Built In Voice Recorder
No expandability past the SD Slot
No Bluetooth
Plastic Casing

5455 has

Mp3 with great sound
Larger Screen - Lower resolution yes bu you can still view more text and that is most important, right?
Built In Voice Recorder
Expansion beyond belief (PC Cards, CF slots, GPS, keyboards, etc, etc)
Bluetooth and WiFi
Metal Casing

All included with the Tungsten C. Fast as it is, it still is not a worthy competitor to the 5455. Even more so with the upcoming 5555 that has the same processor as the T/C with 128MB RAM and PPC 2003 which is supposedly optimized for Xscale processors.



RE: Here is a thought..
abosco @ 5/20/2003 4:08:21 PM #
"Larger Screen - Lower resolution yes bu you can still view more text and that is most important, right?"

Where are people getting this information? Physically larger means easier reading, not more data on the screen at once.

Also, you noted that rotating the screen allows more data on the screen. It doesn't allow more data on the screen, it just makes it easier to read web pages and text because you don't have to side scroll as much and it acts as if you're reading a book.

You say this was a very selective article, but you were VERY selective yourself. Here's a few examples:

How are you going to respond to an email with the iPaq? Do you REALLY want to use transcriber past the first three sentences? I don't think so. The keyboard is great for this, especially on a unit optimized for web access and email.

The screen is personal preference. Those of us with average eyesight should cope fine with having more data on a smaller screen than having less data on a larger screen. Although the difference is negligable, it's a matter of personal preference to be honest.

The iPaq is huge. I've felt one in my hands and I played with one for a few hours hands-on. It rivaled my NX in size. The T|C's size is average for a PDA, which is great with such a feature set.

Same specs. Come on, I don't think we need to go stride for stride with the point that 64 MB on the Palm will get you farther than the 64 on the 5455.

Last thing I'd like to point out is that the T|C is $200 less.

For a quick math reference, H5455 - Bluetooth - Love handles - larger screen - $200 + higher resolution + speed + storage + keyboard = T|C. Solve for X. ;D

Don't get me wrong, the iPaq is a great product. I'd love to own one, but I'm plenty content with my current HH. IMHO, the T|C is a better value for the money.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

RE: Here is a thought..
rsc1000 @ 5/20/2003 4:12:11 PM #
I agree with most of yr comments - Palm needs to put the 'silk-screen' graffiti are to bed one and for all. Theres no excuse for any new Palm OS device to not be VG (i bet most will be in the next yr). Theres also no excuse for mono output - dual purpose for input be damned. I disagree with yr last comment however. Whether or not PPC2003 is more optimized fotr xscale - it is such a slow, cludgey OS (my 144mhz OMAP TT makes the 400mhz iPAQ 5455 PPC seem S-O S-L-O-W for normal OS operations, that even with PPC 2003 i bet it its still greatly outperformed by t|c. Now, a lot of this is because palm OS is lighter (and lighter on features) but damn, PPC is one hell of a bloated win32 based(CE brings a lot of unnessecary win desktop code/clutter along for the ride) hog.

RE: Here is a thought..
rsc1000 @ 5/20/2003 4:22:03 PM #
i just read the comment i posted above - i want to apologize for writting such a poorly constructed paragraph:)

RE: Here is a thought..
a3 @ 5/20/2003 4:51:10 PM #
Totally agree with abosco!

Palm TC rules in corporate audiences by faaaaaaar! Have anybody mentioned size and weight:

TC: 3.07"x4.8"x0.65" @6.30 oz.
iPaq 5450: 3.3"x5.43"x0.63" @ 7.26 oz

As you can see you need to include the reinforced shirt pockets cost if you plan to buy an iPaq...

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

RE: Here is a thought..
hotpaw4 @ 5/20/2003 6:27:29 PM #
The Tungsten T display is larger in terms of pixel count (320x320 versus only 240x320). Granted, the TT does require better eyesight for the same amount of information because the dpi is higher. But if you have good eyesight, or reading glasses, you can put 25% more data on the TT display.

The maximum amount of milliWatts of audio output is one metric where the TT does seem to underperform some PPC models.

RE: Here is a thought..
cbowers @ 5/20/2003 7:19:12 PM #
"First off, the TCs screen is smaller, you cannot turn the screen in landscape mode to read more information as the T/Cs screen is square."

But you can't read more. In landscape mode your screen is still only 320 pixels wide. Same and the T-C's, but you've only got 240 pixels of page length, the T-C has 320.

"Second, there is NO built in voice recorder and NO stereo headphone jack on the T/C."

Well the built in part is weak, it's on the CD though, and is there. The lack of a built-in mic is very odd however. And yes, they wasted the potential of the jack. The four conductor jack could easily have handled stereo out, and mic in. You don't need separate ground pins for input and output. Reference the HP5450 and Toshiba E755 four conductor jacks with mic input and stereo output.

"Third, why no mention of the webpage that was tested in the download. "

Maybe not in the article but it's listed if you read the actual test results. It's a CNN home page with the ad links removed. Even the specs of the webserver on the internal network serving the page are listed.



RE: Here is a thought..
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 7:58:37 PM #
just wait until Palm put a 3.7 inch screen, and we all gonna laugh.

It'll be the size of Texas and last 2 minutes, but all palmie head will declare it "technological breakthrough", because now it includes stereo out.

muawahahahhaah.......

RE: Here is a thought..
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 8:00:45 PM #
last, the tester was too scared to compare T|C to E750.
lol..

we know hot THAT gonna last.

RE: Here is a thought..
Keithos! @ 5/20/2003 8:11:17 PM #
As for the headphone jack, think Voice Over IP, rather than MP3.

RE: Here is a thought..
abosco @ 5/20/2003 8:30:45 PM #
"just wait until Palm put a 3.7 inch screen, and we all gonna laugh.

It'll be the size of Texas and last 2 minutes, but all palmie head will declare it "technological breakthrough", because now it includes stereo out."

Palm with a 3.7 inch screen? No. A unit with a normal sized screen with virtual graffiti would be 4". The NX's screen is just as wide as any other device, but it's just really really long. Beautiful, too. 3.7" would be cramped, while a PPC still stepladders. Let's not get into this, it's OT.

I don't get why you keep talking about Palmie heads. Sony has already done every single bit of this. People who want that functionality with the multimedia capabilities, large screen, awesome bundled software, and flash have moved on to Sony. Let's not get into this, it's OT.

"last, the tester was too scared to compare T|C to E750. lol.."

I'll be honest, I thought this was going to be a cross-platform benchmarking measurement, and I could finally prove to you just how slow the PPC is with its MHz and just how much more resourceful the Palm can be. People (except you) have accepted this fact, but I just wanted to show you the proof and shut you up again. I'll have to wait another day, though. Or maybe I'll learn to code and do it myself... yeah, that'll be the day.

"we know hot THAT gonna last."

It would last with the Toshiba NOT lasting.

Please. The PPC platform isn't bad. But when you try to say Palm devices suck because it can't do stereo MP3 and it has a small screen (albeit denser), you're not looking at the whole picture. The T|C is $499 at its base price and it's marketed to the corporate environment. I don't exactly agree with the decision, but if that's what they want to do, fine. The $500 price tag is competitive. Now I know you're going to come in here talking about a "deep discount", so I'll just say you can find T|C's for as low as $400 (rebateless) if you know where to look, too.

Now if you want to get OT, I should ask you why there still hasn't been a PPC with a keyboard. Or a higher resolution screen. Or a half-decent flip-cover. But frankly, I could care less at this point.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: Here is a thought..
Altema @ 5/20/2003 8:43:41 PM #
"As for the headphone jack, think Voice Over IP, rather than MP3."

Yeah, big stuff in the near future, and something that will get you noticed on the job, rather than fired like listening to mp3's on the job. Some corporations are sinking millions into new networks to better handle voip plus data.

As it stands right now for voip, the T|C is the best equipped handheld at the moment.

RE: Here is a thought..
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 10:25:22 PM #
Hey maybe it support telephatic touch interface too!

PS. apparently other companies have no problem whatsoever to include 4 pin mic jack, complete with stereo. (ie. h5450 can use phone mic jack, and standard stereo plug)

amazing isn't it?

RE: Here is a thought..
Altema @ 5/21/2003 12:19:18 AM #
"PS. apparently other companies have no problem whatsoever to include 4 pin mic jack, complete with stereo. (ie. h5450 can use phone mic jack, and standard stereo plug)"

Yeah, it's not a technical problem. Palm could have (and should have) put in the T|C. That was one of my reasons for holding off on the T|C. How much do you think they saved, $3.00?

RE: Here is a thought..
kstedman1 @ 5/21/2003 9:25:25 AM #
RE: Here is a thought..
Altema @ 5/20/2003 8:43:41 PM

"As for the headphone jack, think Voice Over IP, rather than MP3."

Yeah, big stuff in the near future, and something that will get you noticed on the job, rather than fired like listening to mp3's on the job. Some corporations are sinking millions into new networks to better handle voip plus data.

As it stands right now for voip, the T|C is the best equipped handheld at the moment.

Um, the Ipaqs have had VOIP capabilities for quite some time.

http://www.pocketpresence.com/download/ipaq/rvip/

With that said, how is the T/C the best equipped?

I still believe that the larger screen, even though its 320x240, can be easier on the eyes to read e book, web pages, etc. Im hearing that you can fit more data on the 320x320 from some of you but you just need a magnifying glass, glasses etc.

In addition, the TC, frankly, isnt that much smaller than the Ipaq folks.

By the way, for those who are throwing the keyboard issue around:

http://www.ppcw.net/index.php?itemid=1251

Options, folks. Its all about options and expandability. I have a MemPlug sleeve that has a CF and a Memory Stick slot. I own a Sony DigCam and can pull the MS out, plug it in to the Ipaq and view the pics and transfer the pics to any PC via bluetooth or wifi wirelessly. I mean, how cool is that? Who needs the USB cable that came with the camera..lol.

This Keyboard is next after I upgrade my 5455 to PPC 2003.


RE: Here is a thought..
a3 @ 5/21/2003 9:46:50 AM #
Hey Blueblade:

If you're so amazed with PPC why are you bothering yourself with this discussion with a bunch of guys who prefer some devices that seem to you as Casio's digital diary...

Just keep on praising PPC and let us enjoy our medieval technology.

Hope you have noted the sarcasm in all of this...

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

RE: Here is a thought..
a3 @ 5/21/2003 9:50:04 AM #
Additionally, I think they did not compare the Toshiba because the major PPC handheld producer is HP and Toshiba is merely coming in, not to mention Dell.

On the other hand, lets face it the TC is made for corporate audiences and Palm thinks that they do not need many multimedia features (they may be wrong that I'll give you). So, if you want real comparisons between multimedia features I think you need to talk about bringing any PPC against the Clie family.

IMHO if you want to do so hurry up before Sony launches the new one...

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

RE: Here is a thought..
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 10:47:04 AM #
Dell models sure as hell been around longers than T|C and h1910.

and E750 isn't that new either.

RE: Here is a thought..
kstedman1 @ 5/21/2003 11:04:15 AM #
PPC against Clie post:

Look, the PPC does everything that the Clie does and vice versa

The Ipaq 5455 has full blown multimedia features + Bluetooth + WiFI + Expandability. The Clies and Palms DO NOT have all of these features combined into one unit.

That is the whole point to my original thought was that you cannot compare the TT, TC, Zire, M515, Clie or any other Palm OS based unit to the Ipaq 5455 unless it has, at minimum, an identical feature set.

None of them currently do. Period.


RE: Here is a thought..
a3 @ 5/21/2003 11:33:42 AM #
I agree with you about the impressive list of features of the iPaq you are mentioning. But you must agree that's the reason of its impressive size and weight.

The point here is that Palm and Sony have decided to produce handhelds for the corporate and multimedia user separatedly. This strategy being right or wrong is another issue.

Since the comparison is between a corporate palm and a do it all PPC then we must understand that PPC has more multimedia features not because it's superior technology. It's just due to Palm Solutions' lack of interest in adding them, lack/excess of market research or whatever other marketing reason you can come out with but that's a whole different story.

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

RE: Here is a thought..
kstedman1 @ 5/21/2003 12:36:47 PM #
Totally agree.



RE: Here is a thought..
rsc1000 @ 5/21/2003 1:06:29 PM #
A lot of the above points about ipaq 5455 features are correct. palm frequently comes up short of expectations nbecause they skimp on $5 worth of hardware (the m130 screen fiasco). Too bad the ipaq run that bloated dog of an OS. Id only we could reflash it with Palm OS.....It would still be a brick, but a decent brick:)

Actually, i'd still avoid it. "Infinite expansion option" is a phrase we here a lot from ipaq users. Yes - it true. But all new Palms could have infinite expansion options if Palm or a 3rd party harware developer deviced to make a UC sled that allowed CF or PCMCIA. But of course they wont because its one ugly, brick of a solution. Its no longer a 'mobile' device at that point. Which brings me to why ipaq expansion is such a joke....

RE: Here is a thought..
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 1:52:09 PM #
yeah Sony uses Xscale which has built in SD and CF capability, guess what they do to it?

Guess how extensive Palm Inc support for BT SD card is for their devices?

do you think making a universal port and a driver system is a picnic?

Not even OS 6.0 will cure POS anemic driver availability.

RE: Here is a thought..
kstedman1 @ 5/21/2003 2:36:33 PM #
RE: Here is a thought..
rsc1000 @ 5/21/2003 1:06:29 PM

A lot of the above points about ipaq 5455 features are correct. palm frequently comes up short of expectations nbecause they skimp on $5 worth of hardware (the m130 screen fiasco). Too bad the ipaq run that bloated dog of an OS. Id only we could reflash it with Palm OS.....It would still be a brick, but a decent brick:)

Actually, i'd still avoid it. "Infinite expansion option" is a phrase we here a lot from ipaq users. Yes - it true. But all new Palms could have infinite expansion options if Palm or a 3rd party harware developer deviced to make a UC sled that allowed CF or PCMCIA. But of course they wont because its one ugly, brick of a solution. Its no longer a 'mobile' device at that point. Which brings me to why ipaq expansion is such a joke....
------------------------------------------------

Really. I was a long time Palm user and jumped ship because of the expansion options. I have my 5455 with the MemPlug sleve in my front left pants pocket as I type this. How is that not mobile? Its not as much of a brick as you think.

The only reason you hear the expansion options from the ipaq users is because they are available. GPS, Memory, Keyboard, battery..some are consolidated. Sure, its slightly larger but its still mobile.

Its still kicks serious ass even if you think its a brick.

RE: Here is a thought..
rsc1000 @ 5/21/2003 4:34:34 PM #
>>I have my 5455 with the MemPlug sleve in my front left pants pocket as I type this. How is that not mobile? Its not as much of a brick as you think.

I guess its all a matter of where yr tolerance threshhold lies. And i don't 'think' its a brick - i know. I use the 5455 almost everyday at work (i write software for PPC). The only device i take home at the end of the day is a Palm. I was enamoured with PPC multimedia capabilities when it came out. But my palm i actually take everywhere with me - i find that impossible to do comforably with an iPAQ. And getting back to the benchmarks this story is about - battery life is the second reason. Most importantly, for the few weeks i tried using the iPAQ as my daily PDA, i lost all my data twice. This has never happened to me with my Palm - not on my old Vx and not on my T|T. The battery on T|T lasts a lot less longer than the Vx to be sure - but it keeps yr data for many more days than the 5455 (i can count on that for a long-weekend trip). If you switched to PPC from Palm and yr happy - then thats great. But maybe you should check out a newer palm or Clie - you might like multimedia features BUT with an OS that isn't slow (compared to even the T|T the 5455 is noticably slower for standard OS operations), a battery that keeps yr data, apps that truly close without having to burrow down thru 5 levels of system menus (or wait for arbitrary closure by the OS), and a form-factor that you don't notice when its in yr pocket. I don't believe - no matter how huge your pants pocket is - that the iPAQ with the sleeve is comfortable or 'invisble' when yr carrying it. i know - i've done just this. Its 'mobile' for sure - but not practically so by my definition (yours may vary:).

RE: Here is a thought..
kstedman1 @ 5/22/2003 9:44:27 AM #
Pleated Dockers....nothing extraordinarily big about the pockets. Also keep in mind that I use my 5455 every day as well and my opinion holds as much water as yours. I had a Tungsten T before the 5455 so I know small. I also know whats limited. I guess its just a matter of preference. It is not uncomfortable to carry at all IMHO.

One other thing, why would Palm put the speaker on the back of the unit. As soon as you put the thing in a case, you wont be able to hear it well.

By the way guess which one is thicker:

.6
.62
.65

1st Tungsten T
2nd Ipaq 5455
3rd Tungsten C (Yes, its thicker than the 5455 thus the brick theory should apply here as well. This would be bulge in a pants or shirt pocket, correct?)

The Ipaq is slightly heavier and wider but not by a substantial margin. Less than an ounce in weight, probably due to the screen and metal in the casing casing and bluetooth radio. The Ipaq is probably only less than a quarter inch taller than than the C because of the antenna.

Back to your post, Ive never lost data nor have even been close. Most mobile professionals have either a car charger or cradle on their desk.

Why would I want to buy a T/C when it does not do everything my 5455 does? If Palm really wants to dice it up, the whole idea was to say to the 5455 owners that ours is faster, battery life is longer etc to get them to trade it in for $50 bucks off.

That in itself is a joke.

Palm has some more convincing to do if they want me back.

RE: Here is a thought..
a3 @ 5/22/2003 4:06:32 PM #
I think we are entering a forbidden land: taste.

If you think that the 5455 is no brick, well, fine. If I disagree? fine also.

However, being objective I must repeat the dimensions here:
TC: 3.07"x4.8"x0.65" @6.30 oz.
iPaq 5450: 3.3"x5.43"x0.63" @ 7.26 oz

The 5450 is 7% wider, 13% longer, 3% thinner, 15% heavier and 40% more expensive than the TC (Dimensions taken from each manufacturer's site and prices from Bestbuy.com).

Now subjective again: For me that is way too much to others it is nothing compared with the extra features. Who's right? maybe none of us...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

RE: Here is a thought..
goulniky @ 5/27/2003 1:14:07 AM #
> But you can't read more. In landscape mode your screen is still only 320 pixels wide.
this is simply not true. I have my Clie T625 and an iPaq 1910 in front of me - the iPaq displays 50% more text on the screen. granted, the font is not as crisp but the rendition is still excellent.
> I agree with you about the impressive list of features of the iPaq you are mentioning. But you must agree that's the reason of its impressive size and weight.
take the iPaq 1910 again, noticeably smaller than the Clie.
My overall impression of this new iPaq is excellent though of course it's windows: take the Acrobat reader, it needs 300K on the Palm, but 4.5 MB on the pocketPC !!!!

Yv

File this article under the "Whatever..." department

sixty-four @ 5/20/2003 4:32:27 PM #
First of all, I'm a Palm user. I prefer Palm OS over PocketPC for my PDA purposes. That said, this "study" is no different than some of the PocketPC troll posts seen in the forums. If you don't think so, then you're just as blind as some of these PocketPC fanboys.

This comparison is hardly subjective. Sure the results are presented in as subjective a manner as possible but the selective ommission of other features and capabilities just scream objective marketing.

PDAs are tools that fulfil a certain requirement. These requirements vary from individual to individual. As such, I do not think a battery of tests can be conducted to demonstrate how one platform can "outperform" another. It's up to the end user to make that decision.

----
Forty Six and 2 are just ahead of me

RE: File this article under the
abosco @ 5/20/2003 5:13:26 PM #
Take it with a grain of salt. Some points should be disregarded, and some are actually good points. Remember, this entire testing was funded by Palm Inc. Of course they're not going to talk about native file formats or how their devices handles widescreen MPEG video. They're going to go after what their handhelds are good at, and to some people, this "study" may be helpful in choosing the right device.

As for me, my entire focus has shifted away from Palm OS 5 and PPC 2002. I'm looking forward to Palm OS 6 and PPC 2003 and the devices that run them. Things are about to get real good soon... and with both platforms soon switching to full X-Scale optimization (for the PPC, Palm already had it) and native ARM code (for the Palm OS, PPC already had it), it's going to be a long, long battle. Ultimately, the end-user (us) will win, because we get an OS inspired by competition.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: File this article under the
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 8:01:52 PM #
Bosco, you gonna have hell now.

This report alone is enough for me to kill T|T. *chuckle*

yeah...so much for "T|T battery performance" tops every PPC.

uh huh... what did I tell you last november? and people wonders why T|T doesn't sell beyond the diehard fan.

mark my words: COMING soon..... next summer, buy one T|T get one for free.

PS. so who was it that say, T|T price will never fall under $350? eh mister I am a handheld expert?

RE: File this article under the
abosco @ 5/20/2003 8:46:59 PM #
I never recall saying the TT's battery performance outtopped every PPC. Don't put words in my mouth, or I'll put my foot in yours.

I don't remember what you said last November. You said a lot of dumb stuff. Way too much for me to count. Something like the Axim doing better than the m130 or something, I don't remember, but I remember that it was wrong. ;)

Mark my words: COMING SOON! SKA-LESS PIC!

"PS. so who was it that say, T|T price will never fall under $350? eh mister I am a handheld expert?"

What, did it make another price drop or something? Last I heard, it's $350, and that was today. I would expect Palm to discontinue the TT before they drop it in price again, but I could be wrong.

If you've got a problem with me, be a man about it. Contact me and we can setup a conversation. You pick the topic, I don't care. Hiding behind countless usernames and "show me number" phrases won't do anything.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: File this article under the
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 9:23:26 PM #
oh yeah, mister... Palm will out last PPC 3 times, or was it ten times...

(man, that study is so pathetics, I couldn't have done it better myself to debunk the T|T's myth. lol)

RE: File this article under the
abosco @ 5/20/2003 10:00:40 PM #
Point to a specific place where I said the T|T battery will outlast ANY PPC or "3 times more", at that.

I have made no such claims.

Way to selectively post and skip over everything I just responded to and you were clueless with a reply.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: File this article under the
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 10:28:16 PM #
you sure have high regard of your rambling post.

search the forum, it's littered with your claim about POS has longer battery life.

RE: File this article under the
mikecane @ 5/20/2003 11:34:50 PM #
>>>Mark my words: COMING SOON! SKA-LESS PIC!

Promises, promises. I see his pseudonyms, his noms de PIC, use blue now. Is this to be regarded as his Blue Period?

RE: File this article under the
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 11:37:23 PM #
just wait until my cubism period. lol
RE: File this article under the
mikecane @ 5/20/2003 11:38:40 PM #
Oh my God! We'll be BOXed in!

RE: File this article under the
abosco @ 5/20/2003 11:51:08 PM #
Mike, stop flirting with the troll. Wait a minute, ska IS a guy, right? RIGHT???

My theory is that if we bug the hell out of Ryan enough, he'll get moving on it!

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: File this article under the
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 12:03:26 AM #
FLIRTING?!!? I thought that was what you were doing when you said you would put your foot in his/her mouth. I didn't know your feet went that way...

RE: File this article under the
abosco @ 5/21/2003 12:07:21 AM #
Only if he's into it...

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
RE: File this article under the
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 1:07:34 AM #
blue period: Picasso's work after his early period, followed by rose period, then various stages of cubism.
--------
Bosco, you are owned already. That's why you keep whining instead of posting good arguments.
RE: File this article under the
Foo Fighter @ 5/21/2003 2:41:26 AM #
I wonder if there is some place here where I can hang myself? Jeez, why is it that 90% of all posts at PIC are petty arguments?

P.S., if Ska/Blue/Iraqi Information Minister/or whatever name he goes by at the moment, really bothers you...just ignore him. Frankly, I like having him around if for no other reason than to add variety.

RE: File this article under the
Islander @ 5/21/2003 6:56:02 AM #
You mean you want more than Cain posts all the time? Whats wrong with you? :)

RE: File this article under the
mikecane @ 5/21/2003 7:21:44 AM #
That's "Cane," nitwit. Although I'd gladly be *your* Cain, Mr. Abel!

And, Foo, you kill me! Iraqi Info Minister!!

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com

my favorite:

"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

RE: File this article under the
a3 @ 5/21/2003 11:51:55 AM #
Foo:

I agree with you to some extent. Some things are ment to be ignored.

However, this ska/blue anon,etc. is turning the signal to noise ratio to an all-time low. I can hardly forget when Palm's C?O David Nagel was answering questions about an article in PIC and the only one around was Ska... no wonder why Mr Nagel hasn't come around again.

Anyway, don't blame Ryan for a jerkfull environment... it's not his fault. I think Forrest Gump once said Stupid is as stupid does (though I'm not sure anout it).

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

RE: File this article under the
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 1:50:15 PM #
Since when Nagel and Mace can answer straight question and not giving you marketing spin?

lol

RE: File this article under the
abosco @ 5/21/2003 8:30:49 PM #
"Bosco, you are owned already. That's why you keep whining instead of posting good arguments."

This is the problem. I've, for lack of a better word to describe the true situation, raped you bad enough and you still don't get the picture. We don't want you here. We don't like you. If we could, we would tar and feather you.

I don't post anymore good arguments because they are redundant and you don't change your mind. You're an idiot. How's that for a good argument? Prove to me you're not an idiot, and maybe I'll start listening to you. But until then, you're just a jealous fanboy with an unknown agenda. Put together a coherent, non-rambling, non-OT, non-attacking argument and I'll listen.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: File this article under the
roseBlade @ 5/21/2003 8:50:27 PM #
there you go you are rambling again.
RE: File this article under the
abosco @ 5/21/2003 10:07:18 PM #
Get Hooked on Phonics.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
RE: File this article under the
mikecane @ 5/22/2003 10:51:06 AM #
I don't know... I think he might be posting from his PPC and using the built-in spellchecker...

... or maybe we are seeing the fruits of MS research and technology for HWR!!

RE: File this article under the
roseBlade @ 5/22/2003 11:18:43 AM #
yer just jealous and don't know what else to say. hah... :P
RE: File this article under the
abosco @ 5/22/2003 3:52:01 PM #
Then how come you replied to my post without answering any of my questions?

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
RE: File this article under the
mikecane @ 5/22/2003 10:45:49 PM #
Didn't the Iraqi Info Minister do that too?

Wait....

RE: File this article under the
Hippocrates @ 11/13/2003 3:10:26 AM #
FLIRTING?!!? I thought that was what you were doing when you said you would put your foot in his/her mouth. I didn't know your feet went that way...

Goodness gracious!


RE: File this article under the
mikecane @ 11/13/2003 9:01:50 AM #
So he/it is not ska, huh? Interesting that it/he finds this thread...

Psychological profile of Mike Cane
Hippocrates @ 11/13/2003 10:44:06 AM #

.

results of the palm

confucius @ 5/20/2003 6:28:38 PM #
Those results are superbs ,but i would like to have a Palm C with the W wireless capacity and a screen as large as possible and as good as the C one.
And a better ear support for the phone and mp3 .
I am waiting that for upgrading from my 505.
Thanks and felicitation for the results.

would like to have a "Palm tablet" pda larger screen input by writing on the screen

multitasking...

orol @ 5/20/2003 7:42:30 PM #
it's fine that T|C is that much good at battery life/ wireless but hell i want multitaking ..
i want to play bejeweled and having an email program (preferably snappermail :o) running in background, editing some documents and copy pasting over the aplications .. and what the hell are those 64mb good for when there is no real file system ..
furthermore .. adjutable dynamic memory would be nice .. i know T|C has got 11mb, nx/nz/tg series 5mb but T|T only 384kb zire 1mb => you can't run netfront there .. nor my favourite scummVM ..
i hope palm os 5 will be out soon .. even I really love palm os for it's simlicity .. there were no major improvements in palm os architecture .. since palm os 1 the .. and palm os 5 is more palm4 rewritten to arm ..

p.s. I've been using palms for over 3 years .. but i really want take advantage of the hw on the new palms .. i don't want just an improved organizer ..

RE: multitasking...
abosco @ 5/20/2003 8:54:53 PM #
Read up on the subject. Palm OS 5 was never meant to be groundbreaking in software, it was meant to be groundbreaking in processing power and speed. You'll get the major software change in OS 6, just hang in there. I'm patiently waiting too.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
RE: multitasking...
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 9:21:00 PM #
ehr, actually the OS5.0 suppose to be the one that kill PPC by answering alll of its advantage for once and all. Remember the hype last year?

well, T|T price is down the drain, while PPC is not going anywhere, even growing.


RE: multitasking...
gfunkmagic @ 5/20/2003 9:39:28 PM #
Quote: "ehr, actually the OS5.0 suppose to be the one that kill PPC by answering alll of its advantage for once and all. Remember the hype last year?"

BlueOnion, what crap you talking about? PalmSource has said from day one that the purpose OS 5.x was to move the platform to ARM based processors and towards more powerful hardware spec. They have always maintained that the real upgrade was going to OS 6 anway! The purpose of OS 5.x was to allow licensees to get ARM-based hardware onto the market before the complete rewrite of Palm OS (i.e. OS 6.x) was complete.

RE: multitasking...
blueBlade @ 5/20/2003 10:30:32 PM #
OK, so now OS 6.0 will be the one that will stem PPC. heh...

and you are going to deny making this claim next year too I am sure

Let me guess what you are going to say next year: OS 6.0 will be a continuing evolution of OS 5.0. It will be a stepping stone to OS 7.0. OS 7.0 will rule and surpas anything offered by PPC. (then come obligatory swearing, and run out the forum crying mommy again)

RE: multitasking...
sr @ 5/20/2003 11:03:37 PM #
Wow, this topic sure got the PPC zealots into panic mode... Funny stuff!

RE: multitasking...
abosco @ 5/20/2003 11:29:44 PM #
No. The whole thing was plotted and from the very beginning, I even said OS 5 was a bridge to OS 6 by having the hardware ready, not the software.

Yes, OS 6 is rumored to be the OS that is supposed to rival PPC stride for stride.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: multitasking...
IndyDave @ 5/21/2003 1:33:35 AM #
Couldn't agree more SR! Ska needs to get a life. I don't like the Lakers, so I don't spend hours watching their games. IT, on the other hand, would spend his money to buy season tickets just to boo. With the amount of time spent here, it apparently has no decent job, is a social misfit, and has delusions of grandeur. Kind of makes one curious to look behind the curtain in Oz...then again, I'd rather not.

Fairly psychotic, but whatever...

RE: multitasking...
antikryst @ 5/21/2003 2:37:20 AM #
multitasking??? never thought of any use for it on my palm.

when u switch apps then go back to it again it normally stays to where it was right? multitasking?
probably not.

audio playback in the background? multitasking??
maybe.


RE: multitasking...
rsc1000 @ 5/21/2003 1:31:40 PM #
Actually blue-moron, every PPC user, fan, magazine and website assumed that PPC would have completely taken over the market by now. CE has existed for 7 yrs now. Everyone agrees that it finilly became competeive with Palm when PPC came out - then it was supposed wipe out Palm in a matter of a couple of yrs. Well - its be 4 yrs now - and which OS STILL leads in terms of marketshare? Palm OS - and it mostly maintained that lead on old fashioned 68k 33mhz or less dragonballs. Now, much of the industry has amnesia on this whole point - or more likely they won't own up to their completely inaccurate predictions. So, with a multi-tasking palm OS around the corner, and new Palms running on fast ARM devices with nice hi-res screen, AND with Palm OS having the majority marketshare in the PDA space - why do you think PPC is going to take over? we've been hearing this for 7 yrs now - care to giver us a new date for world domination?

RE: multitasking...
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 1:48:43 PM #
PPC only been out for 2 years heh...
RE: multitasking...
rsc1000 @ 5/21/2003 4:54:03 PM #
>>PPC only been out for 2 years heh...

Actually we're both wrong - it launched 3 years and 1 month ago (April 19, 2000). Sorry for the exageration - though this does make it slightly cloer to 4 yrs than 2 yrs. So? When the date for world domination?

RE: multitasking...
roseBlade @ 5/21/2003 5:16:32 PM #
well the schedule for palm to fall below 50% is late this year, while PPC to reach the 50% mark is schedule sometimes in 2004.

most conservative estimate predicts late 2004. Unless Palm Inc can come up with Zire2, priced at $78 with some extremely interesting feature. The schedule will preety much hold, if not earlier by several month.


RE: multitasking...
cyruski @ 5/22/2003 2:57:09 PM #
the "tech analysts" (who then again always fail to predict correctly) have been drawing y=x˛ graphs for pocket pc sales for more than a year.. guess what, in the beginning they were saying ppc sales would surpass palm in 2002, then they said in 2003, now they say 2004. quite obvious..

RE: multitasking...
roseBlade @ 5/22/2003 4:44:00 PM #
In case you are still thinking some sort of magic 80-90%. Palm global market share is 53% and down last quarter, with Palm inc controling about 35%.

No statistics to back it up

jcalcazaren @ 5/21/2003 1:04:51 AM #
I'm a palm user myself, and i must say that this is impressive news.

However, the results posted in the report dont seem to very scholarly. For one thing, they only performed tests on 3 units per handheld. Also, the method of statistical analysis was not stated (did they just get the mean scores?! =O). No mention of whether the sample size was acceptable and whether the results were significantly different from each other statistically.

More credibility could be given if Veritest mentioned the things said above. But as I said, this is interesting news.

Battery life

John Pahl @ 5/21/2003 9:16:24 AM #
One of the best things about this story is the battery life is not just measured only in "number hours continuous use" (which is pretty useless on its own) but also given in terms of "how long data is stored when not activated".

I use my palm M500 for PIM stuff and it lasts 3 weeks and I'm not upgrading to a TT (or anything else) that only lasts 3 days. However the other measure of battery life is how long the device stores data when switched off - which is where palm is so much better than PPC.

I tried a toshiba 740 and even though the battery time when active life was ok, the battery time when switched off (ie doing absolutely nothing) was under 3 days and so if I (say) went away for long w/end or sailing, it would loose all my data even if I didn't touch it. That to me is completely hopeless. Maybe PPC engineers spend their life tied to desks.

I hope PIC takes note and includes in its review measures of battery life other than continuously active time.

RE: Battery life
Altema @ 5/21/2003 4:50:49 PM #
Standby time is one of the missed points. I had stored a Palm M505 for a friend who had a stroke, and the thing went for a year with only being charged twice. If battery life is your ultimate goal, then you'll be fine with the M500. However, I'm certain the T|C will live longer if the WiFi is not used.

Just for the record, if used identically, the T|T battery life is just as good as the typical M515 and M505. This means matching the brightness, and only doing the things which can be done on all three devices. In movie loop testing with the audio loudness matched, the T|T even did a little better than the other two. The test was started with all devices at 70%; but when the test was finished over an hour later, the 515 was around 47% and the T|T at 53%. What saps the T|T battery most is the fun stuff; things like running Mp3's for a solid hour each way during your commute, playing games with enhanced graphics and sound effects, and surfing the web wirelessly for a couple hours. But, you can't do that with the 505/515 anyways, so those devices don't have to deal with the extra load.

As a side note, I was able to get 19 hours runtime (38 days) from one charge on my M515 by using it like a mono device: little or no frontlight. That got old pretty quick though! What's the point of having Zap!2016 in full 16 bit color and not using it?

RE: Battery life
rsc1000 @ 5/21/2003 4:57:05 PM #
Bingo. As i said in a post above, even though my job gives me the pick of whatever device i want to use (palm or pocket PC) - i use palm because my attempt to actually use a PPC for daily use led to loosing all of my data twice in the 3 weeks that i used an iPAQ as my daily PDA. But - gee, yeah, it sure is 'neat-o' to have windows in yr pocket. Too bad they still haven't got core PDA functionality right.

RE: Battery life
roseBlade @ 5/21/2003 7:29:55 PM #
does naybody actually READ the report before making comment? The T|T 4:15 up time is for backlight on and IDLE.


RE: Battery life
hotpaw4 @ 5/21/2003 7:36:55 PM #
Idle display time is still power-on time.

Standby-time is how long the battery will retain memory with the CPU & display off.

Standby-time is important in two cases: (1) when one has to still use ones handheld several days after last charging it (last day of a business trip), and (2) preservation of RAM data after using accidentally running the battery almost all the way down (played too many games/mp3's on flight out, still need to get data off of the handheld when back at work next week).

PPC users end up having to carry around a charger far more often on trips even when they seldom turn the handheld on. I've carried my PalmOS handhelds on several trips over 1 week without bringing and/ using my emergency charger.

RE: Battery life
roseBlade @ 5/21/2003 8:22:06 PM #
2. h5450 has flash disk save. This feature automatically save data to prevent "data lost". Neither of POS models have it. The new E750 has 32MB of it. Would you rather 20 days grace period after main battery fail, or indefinite period upon ALL power failure.

-PPC has far more advance network remote sync and auto backup. Hence on top of the above data save scheme, PPC have far more ways to restore data than T|T or T|C ever can.

The point of all this? Palm gives illusion that 10 more days grace period is a good way to protect data, while PPC does not assume that and provide REAL alternative to data protection. Manual strickly says 72 hrs, otherwise use various protection given

would you like to take a chance on your data survival as done in the study , or would you rather have your data 'saved' in more reliable manner?

Palm Inc doesn't even bother giving their supposedly "enterprise" pda a back up utility. No wonder they are hyping this illusion of safety in big ways.

Too bad they don't dare putting it on their manual, It'll be interesting to see people suing their pants off regarding data lost whie operating within the documentated instruction.

RE: Battery life
John Pahl @ 5/22/2003 5:01:12 AM #
Our office is mostly palm os, apart from one guy with an ipaq. He is so fed up with having to constantly check its charged up to avoid data loss (and battery damage) he's called it his "tamagotchi".

The whole point of these devices is to support us humans - we shouldn't spend our time worrying about it. Next weekend I'm away on holiday, and I know I won't have to take a charger and I won't loose any data. I don't have to think about my M500 and thats the way it should be.

I might even buy a backup M500 just in case they go out of production and I break my current one.

RE: Battery life
roseBlade @ 5/22/2003 10:01:04 AM #
better stock up on m500, they are not listed in Palm catalog anymore.
RE: Battery life
a3 @ 5/22/2003 1:26:59 PM #
Roseblade: "Palm Inc doesn't even bother giving their supposedly "enterprise" pda a back up utility. No wonder they are hyping this illusion of safety in big ways."

The point here is that PPC has to create alternate ways to protect your info because they know that 3 days is ridiculous. Palm does not need to be keen on that issue since most of us will be more than well served with a 10+ day protection. If not, you can always make a backup to an external card/stick.

Not sure about palm, but my clie includes MS Backup. Anyway, I use BackupBuddy instead...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

RE: Battery life
roseBlade @ 5/22/2003 1:36:43 PM #
What's the different if your data will be gone after 7 days or after 20 days? IF they are gone, they are gone.

why not create a more robust 'data protection' system, instead of hyping..."coulda, woulda" data protection scheme.

If it protects data, then it suppose to 'PROTECT' data, not just protecting in probable 20days scenario.

RE: Battery life
a3 @ 5/22/2003 3:51:41 PM #
1.) Maybe I'm very naive but if I fully charge my Palm I can go away on vacation for more than a month without needing to worry. If I want to be 200% sure about that then I'll hotsync it before I go. If I want to be 300% sure then I can make an SD/MS backup.

2.) You talked about flash disk save, network remote sync and auto backup on PPC. Well with Palm you only need an app like Backupman, VFSBackup or similar to set up automatic backups and that's all you're gonna need.

3.) The point to be discussed is not how many ways you have to backup your info. It is how many days you can go without needing to backup.

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

RE: Battery life
roseBlade @ 5/22/2003 4:35:33 PM #
1.) the test was not "fully charge" battery. But how long data is retain after the machine refuse to turned on anymore.

2.) so if your machine imploded and lost all data you can revive it with VFS backup, back up man without the help of a desktop? I don't think so. since those apps are NOT in the flash memory. The utility will be gone along with all the rest of memory. (and please dont tell me T|T has some sort of big Flash memory space left in that already meager ROM)

3.) The point of the test is DATA survival. Not answering question if you want your data lost in 5 days or 20 days. WHO cares! Palm wants you to believe that 20 days is some sort of magic number that will protect your data better, which any serious enterprise buyers will laugh at. If you are talking protecting data from power loss, then the data has to survive from power lost indefinitely period. A lost data after 20 days is still a lost data no matter how you cut it.

RE: Battery life
a3 @ 5/22/2003 4:45:51 PM #
The backup utilities store your files in the SD card/Mem stick. My Clie was off during three months after my charger was damaged. When I charged it again the Palm OS apps where there, I just used MS backup (included in Clie's flash memory) to restore everything from my memory stick.

You never ever loose the flash memory so OS stuff will always be there. You will just need your external memory to be up and running as if nothing ever happened.

Anyway, lets get real:
Lets say you go out on December 20 and return on January 10 after the holidays. Who's gonna need to restore its handheld info? the PPC user or the Palm user? Of course the PPC user will have three or four ways to do it but the Palm user will not have to do it.

RE: Battery life
roseBlade @ 5/22/2003 5:22:52 PM #
Assuming the handheld was stored in dead/almost dead main battery. Probably the T|T owner, depending on temperature and back up battery charge state.

the owner of h5450 will just shove his handheld to some power up the system and all data will be there inside the internal Flash disk.

IE, the h5450 owner does not need to do ANYTHING except powering on his handheld to get his address data back. It doesn't even NEED external SD/ CF, wireless back up, or whatever other thing you have to do with T|T.

now if it is h1910, then the owner is toast, he has to revive from external back up, just like T|T.

and really, are you proposing that internal flash disk that protect data is actually worst than 'pray hard nothing will lost' within the 20 days?

.... riiight.

---------
PS. we are talking about T|T here, not clie. which again underline the pathetic set of utility Palm inc. is giving this so called 'enterprise' PDA for protecting data. No wonder they keep singing the magic 20 days mantra.


RE: Battery life
hoodoo @ 5/23/2003 9:09:22 AM #
OMG! Hello!

"2.) so if your machine imploded and lost all data you can revive it with VFS backup, back up man without the help of a desktop? I don't think so. since those apps are NOT in the flash memory. The utility will be gone along with all the rest of memory. (and please dont tell me T|T has some sort of big Flash memory space left in that already meager ROM)"

BlueOnion, you store the back up utility on the SD/MS card as well, so you recover transfer the utility back to the Palm and then perform recovery. Duh!

That being said, I'll grant that it would be nice to have built in flash backup on Palm. How many PPC's have this? One? Woooooooo.



RE: Battery life
a3 @ 5/23/2003 9:51:26 AM #
Well it is very nice to know that PPC has 32Mb (33% of its total) for flash recovery. That is typical Microsoft doing: "We built the software you go get all the hardware needed to support it".

Anyway it seems to me that you're a very PPC biased guy so there is no sense in continuing this conversation.

Just remember to fully charge your PPC before you go home tonight cuz on monday you may have to use one of the various ways to recover your info designed by Microsoft and PPC manufacturers. Whereas Palm users will just have to go away without having to worry.

By the way my T615 has 127kb of flash memory, 25196% less than that PPC you're talking about and still I have 666% more days of freedom. Now go on and tell me that the 666 number is a proof of Palm's allegiance with the devil...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

RE: Battery life
a3 @ 5/23/2003 10:02:33 AM #
Just another thought for all of you PPC lovers that "live" here in PIC: when PPC came out you had great processors, 320x240 nifty color resolution, huge ram and full multimedia capabilities. Back then we only had 33Mhz processors, 8Mb RAM and 160x160 resolution. Notwithstanding your "numbers" Palm did not disappear thanks to its great OS among others.

Now we have an even better OS (Not to mention OS6), 400Mhz processors, 64Mb RAM (capable of 128Mb), 320x320 and 320x480 resolutions, built in thumbboards (though I don't like them) and digital cameras.

I wonder what's gonna happen...

RE: Battery life
a3 @ 5/23/2003 10:17:23 AM #
HooDoo:

You might wanna check JackFlash for flash backup... (; ))

RE: Battery life
hoodoo @ 5/23/2003 10:31:35 AM #
heh..thanks!

I think my Prism is non-flashable?

RE: Battery life
a3 @ 5/23/2003 10:42:07 AM #
At their site they have an utility that tells you how much flash memory is in your device. Not sure about your Prism but maybe you'll be surprised...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

PALM & SONY K-I-S-S-I-N-G

mikecane @ 5/21/2003 10:24:33 AM #
http://tinyurl.com/cauq

-- oh, this is just too funny not to share!!

RE: PALM & SONY K-I-S-S-I-N-G
blueBlade @ 5/21/2003 10:50:48 AM #
4 years later ans we still don't see the result.

where are the streaming multimedia in Palm? muawahahahah....


RE: PALM & SONY K-I-S-S-I-N-G
djh @ 5/21/2003 10:53:29 AM #
Yes, I love my Nokia Palm OS Smartphone, especially now I can use my Memory Stick GPS in it.

And that OmniSky service just gets better and better. No way could I live without it.

Thank you Palm!

Cheers!!

Original Palm Pilot Wins Test #1 and #2

Gekko @ 5/21/2003 6:54:19 PM #
Original Palm Pilot Wins Test #1 and #2

RE: Original Palm Pilot Wins Test #1 and #2
kstedman1 @ 5/22/2003 11:48:11 AM #
Thats funny stuff. Considering that is the most idiotic thing said so far.

Im turning my 2MB Palm V into a picture frame this weekend.

lol

June Laptop magazine

sr @ 5/22/2003 1:07:48 PM #
The June issue of Laptop magazine does a similar comparison between 5 PDAs, two PalmOS (Sony Clie PEG-NZ90 with wireless card and Tungsten C) and three PocketPC (Dell Axim X5 with Dell wireless CF adapter, HP IPAQ h5455 and Toshiba e750). Very timely devices and a very independent study. They were concerned mainly with Wireless performance and the overall WiFi experience. Guess who comes out on top: Tungsten C.

RE: June Laptop magazine
a3 @ 5/22/2003 1:15:46 PM #
Thanks for the hint. Which device came 2nd?

Actually, sorry to bother, but can you give us a more detailed report?

Thanks in advance.

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

RE: June Laptop magazine
kstedman1 @ 5/22/2003 2:19:45 PM #
What the hell is Laptop Magazine and why are they reviewing PDAs wireless capabilities?

RE: June Laptop magazine
ganoe @ 5/22/2003 3:14:25 PM #
Could you define "wireless performance" and "overall experience"?
RE: June Laptop magazine
sr @ 5/22/2003 6:02:15 PM #
They don't post content online though their site is at
http://www.techworthy.com/magazines/laptop/

Dell was the runner up, thanks to its low price. Pro was the raw download speed (they tested just the throughput, rather than web page display), con was the 1.5 hr battery life when using WiFi. 4 stars.

IPAQ h5455 got 3 stars "thanks" to its price and 1 hour of running time with WiFi (!).

T|C got props for the easiest setup by far, keyboard, screen, CPU power and 4 hrs of battery time with WiFi (!!!). The only drawback they found was slower raw download speed, though based on the report in this article the speedy HTML parser and renderer more than makes up for it (HTML is pretty lightweight). 4 stars and Editor's Choice.

Sony got panned with 2.5 stars due to its size, unfriendly WiFi setup and enormous price (with WiFi card added to the cost).

Toshiba got 3 stars for a bit unwieldy setup, 1.5 hours running time and poor performance.

RE: June Laptop magazine
a3 @ 5/22/2003 6:47:45 PM #
Thanks a lot, man.

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.
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