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Comments on: Sony Releases the NX80V and NX73V

Sony Clie NX80VSony has announced two new Clie handhelds and is now taking pre-orders. The NX80V features a 1.3 Mega pixel camera with a "Capture Light", Palm OS 5, 200mhz processor, 32MB of RAM, backlit thumb keyboard and a CF type II card slot. The NX73V comes in a similar form factor and specs with a lower resolution camera and no light.
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Another breed of NX's...

i2oadi2unnei2 @ 6/16/2003 10:41:29 AM #
My NX70V isn't even a year old so I think I will pass on these models for now. If I buy keep buying new clies everytime Sony comes out with a new model I'd be broke *GRIN*, although I could......

...|3eep |3eep!!...

RE: Another breed of NX's...
a3 @ 6/16/2003 11:23:27 AM #
My T615C is more than a year old and, frankly speaking, I'm getting tired of waiting for the 320x480 tablet PDA...

I've never liked this clamshell design but I have to be honest and say that these two PDA's are very nice... the backlit thumboard is a cool touch (sort of copied from Apples recent iPod and Powerbooks) if I didn't know that the Helix is coming I think I'd be preordering the NX73.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this two updates will get what it takes to boost Clie sales... guess time will tell us.

_____________________________________________________
Who? me. When? Now!

RE: Another breed of NX's...
s_n_m @ 6/16/2003 12:16:27 PM #
The backlit keyboard is taken from the TG50, and the TG50's backlit keyboard is taken from the Treo 300, and the Treo 300's backlit keyboard is taken from (obviously) CELL PHONES!

So you are wrong I am sorry.

_____________________________________________
*S*S*D*D*

RE: Another breed of NX's...
sigsegv @ 6/16/2003 12:44:10 PM #
I agree with you, a3. I hate the clam shell. I'd love to see a 480x320 tablet PDA. No stupid camera. No stupid keyboard. Just a virt-G area. Get the size down somewhere close to that of my 760, if not smaller. And while they're at it, why not throw in a faster CPU with more memory? I just saw the T|C yesterday and while I hate the keyboard, the screen was nice and boy was it speedy and 64M of RAM.... Mmmmm... RAM....

Plus, no built-in WiFi or BT? Bah! I really want to upgrade my PDA, but nobody's gotten it right yet.

-sig

RE: Another breed of NX's...
Fernando @ 6/16/2003 1:36:41 PM #
"
Plus, no built-in WiFi or BT? Bah! I really want to upgrade my PDA, but nobody's gotten it right yet.

-sig"

umm... i don't know what world u've been living in, but the T|C has built in wifi, it actually has the highest battery life with wifi usage that i have ever seen...

correct me if i'm wrong.

RE: Another breed of NX's...
Doo @ 6/16/2003 2:40:59 PM #
I agree with Sig. NO ONE, Not Palm nor Sony, has come out with a 760 killer. Small V-graffiti with blue tooth. First one out wins. I'll buy 2.

RE: Another breed of NX's...
killah fury @ 6/16/2003 3:28:03 PM #
Thirded! I agree with Sig and Doo. If Palm or Sony come out with a decent slim tablet-style Palm OS machine with a fast processor, at least 32mb of RAM, bluetooth and such like... then I'll buy three!

RE: Another breed of NX's...
icarus @ 6/16/2003 3:35:19 PM #
I totally agree with a3 and sigsegv.

I WANT 320x480 with VG and NO GIMMICKS like cameras, keyboards, etc.
But with Bluetooth and eventually also WiFi.

And I want it NOW.

Com'on. It can't be that difficult.

presently using m105 - waiting for Garmin iQue3600 with Bluetooth

RE: Another breed of NX's...
Verteron @ 6/16/2003 8:02:22 PM #
*Sigh* I think it's time to accept the fact that no-one is interested in releasing that form factor, no matter how much you seem to want it.

RE: Another breed of NX's...
M3wThr33 @ 6/16/2003 8:21:58 PM #
I still have a lust for the n760c(n710, even, with a hack), but they abandoned it for the bulk. If they could just make it OS5 with a Zire71 camera, it'd be fine. I got a Zire71 because I couldn't wait. I can see the Zire71 going places, but Sony still can't find a groove.

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.
RE: Another breed of NX's...
inferblue @ 6/17/2003 12:20:27 AM #
Will the Helix have a Hard Drive like the ipod??

RE: Another breed of NX's...
a3 @ 6/17/2003 8:12:04 AM #
Allegedly, the Helix will have 128Mb RAM.

Regarding Verteron's comment, I have to agree that no one seems to be looking at our multiple requests for a tablet 320x480 palm. However that might not be true since Tapwave's Helix and Garmin's Ique (not shure about the latter) disclosed such specs initially. Additionally, Palm OS6 seems to have native support for VG so in one year that tablet shape may become standard (wishful thinking? maybe... maybe not)

Anyway, one thing's for sure: Palm has caught up with Sony's line up. As a matter of fact, to see guys saying so and even some that say that Palm has outgrown Sony is a mere indication that Palm's lineup has evolved incredibly... IMHO for the first time in the last couple of years I have a Palm SG PDA (Zire 71) in my list of possible buys.
_____________________________________________________
Never, never, never give up!

RE: Another breed of NX's...
i2oadi2unnei2 @ 6/17/2003 2:37:25 PM #
As I was reading, I thought of that movie Red Planet. Remember that map thingy they carried that looked like a thin film thingy? It be nice if a PDA was as small as the m515 and when you spit the pda in half you get more of tablet thing lol... heck I'm confused already *GRIN*

...|3eep |3eep!!...

Are looks everything?

JVUK @ 6/16/2003 10:44:03 AM #
Both these models look good with all the bells and whistles you can shake a stick at... (OK, enough clichés) The question is whether, at that price, they will live with the Zire 71 etc. Or maybe I'm just jealous...

RE: Are looks everything?
LiveFaith @ 6/16/2003 10:53:29 AM #
Pretty strong features @ $499. Especially with that awesome 320x480 that Palm should have already released. The deal killer for me is the massive size and length. I would have to get me some of the baggy jeans from a local teenager to get that thing in my pocket.

Why does Sony waste all that extra length where no screen real estate is. Looks like they could shave a 1/2 inch off the length?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Are looks everything?
dstrauss @ 6/16/2003 12:32:39 PM #
I just don't get it. Why can't Sony produce a T615 size unit with virtual graffiti and the new transflective typr of screen - why do we have to keep getting BIGGER in form factor? Go the other direction for heaven's sake

RE: Are looks everything?
elo @ 6/16/2003 1:28:14 PM #
I *so* agree. No matter how much I do with my PDA, its primary value in my life is still as an organizer. If its too big to fit in the pocket of my dress pants then it won't be there when I need it.

I have no doubt that Sony has identified a target market for its clamshell devices. But I think that many, many of us are waiting to upgrade until we can get a TG-50-ish device without the thumbboard and with virtual grafitti.

elo

RE: Are looks everything?
Zippy @ 6/16/2003 2:40:07 PM #
<>

Do you mean "clie-ches"?

RE: Are looks everything?
icarus @ 6/16/2003 3:41:55 PM #
I could agree with elo, when you would state, that the TG50 form factor has to be reduced, especially in thickness and weight.
Else, with a HighRes+ Screen and BT. Fine with me. But rather earlier than later.

presently using m105 - waiting for 320x480 VG Design with Bluetooth (No clam-shell, no keyboard)
RE: Are looks everything? 320x480
a3 @ 6/17/2003 8:37:53 AM #
As said above:

No one seems to be looking at our multiple requests for a tablet 320x480 palm. However that might not be true since Tapwave's Helix and Garmin's Ique (not shure about the latter) disclosed such specs initially for Palm OS5

Additionally, Palm OS6 seems to have native support for VG so in one year that 320x480 tablet shape with VG may become standard (wishful thinking? maybe... maybe not).

One thing is for sure if we don't find an answer for not having a 320x480 tablet, lets just watch accross the river: PPC2002 has 240x320 and PPC2003 will have 240x320 and on top of all no easy landscape mode (you have to reset it)... aint't it good to know that we're in the right side (even if you have a 320x320)?
_____________________________________________________
Already looking forward to an Apple PDA...

RE: Are looks everything?
dstrauss @ 6/17/2003 10:34:09 AM #
The Palm V was one of the hottest selling Palms ever, because it was small, thin, and hada better screen (at the time) than any other. If you want a killer PDA that will sweep the field with many users, focus on that form factor, add transflective 240x320 screen with virtual graffiti, SDIO (bluetooth would be great), and put on an integrated (but removable) flip cover like the Treo 90. This thing would clean up in the "organizer" crowd.

The perfect PDA
Satan @ 6/17/2003 2:44:33 PM #
The Palm V was one of the hottest selling Palms ever, because it was small, thin, and had a better screen (at the time) than any other. If you want a killer PDA that will sweep the field with many users, focus on that form factor, add transflective 240x320 screen with virtual graffiti, SDIO (bluetooth would be great), and put on an integrated (but removable) flip cover like the Treo 90. This thing would clean up in the "organizer" crowd.


Patience, Grasshopper. You will soon have that which you seek.

RE: Are looks everything?
JKingGrim @ 6/18/2003 8:42:03 AM #
240x320 screen with virtual graffiti

Ugh. I would hate 1.5 density. I refuse to settle with the screen resolution of PPC.

I don't see Bluetooth...

big_raji @ 6/16/2003 10:52:29 AM #
Well, I guess it's pretty much confirmed. No bluetooth on either of these models.

That sucks.

Overclocking?
ray00pal @ 6/16/2003 5:59:29 PM #
PXA263 can run faster. Don't tell me we can not overclock this thing! Come one, some expert please start working on it.

What? 200Mhz is fast enough? Not if you want to store a city map in the PDA. Or view Word file in native format.

And yes, it will be nice to have a model without camra. Many company does not allow employee to carry a camra around.

BLUETOOTH?!?!

abosco @ 6/16/2003 10:52:24 AM #
Whose genius idea was it not to include Bluetooth?

I am thoroughly disappointed with these models. They are minor updates to models that are eight months old. Word has it only 16 MB RAM are accessible and 16 MB RAM are used for dynamic heap. If the lack of Bluetooth and RAM issue is correct, these models should have never made it past the drawing board. If $350 models are being equipped with Bluetooth and a $600 model isn't, something's wrong. Even Sony's own TG50 has Bluetooth and it's $200 less than the NX80v!!!

I expect these models to find mediocre success and to be quickly shunned in favor of a new TG60 with a 320x480 screen and Bluetooth and CF slot for $400. But that's just my guess.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
NocTurnerV @ 6/16/2003 11:01:49 AM #
Why in the world does everyone keep going on about this "TG50 with 320x480 resolution?" It's *NOT* going to happen...the whole point of the TG50 is that it has a thumbboard, and you cannot cram all that extra resolution into a thumbboard-driven PDA, because you'd have to elongate the screen (it's currently square), which would just make the damn thing UNGODLY long.

Now, to say that Sony should put out a non-clamshell PDA with bluetooth and a big, 320x480 screen is one thing, but there's no way in the world that handheld is going to be a child of the TG50. It just wouldn't work. Yeesh.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
maddie @ 6/16/2003 11:09:46 AM #
If you asked me I agree with abosco. Its rediculous to bring almost exact version of the NX70 and not include bluetooth and more memory. I am talking about at the very least 64 RAM and fully available, not this crap 32RAM and 16 available for use!! That is what I have with the NX60 (use jackflash for that extra 4mb they left in rom), they did not even upgrade the speed! What does sony think we are stupid? and for the price?

Very minor updates, not worth the price.

What a disapointment. Any way, if we look at Sony's past history they usually better the second generation of devices and totally trash the 3rd!!!

I am not buying into an new device now. Tough love!! I am almost ready to switch back to Palm or a next generation of the NZ90. Lets see what they come up with.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
hkklife @ 6/16/2003 11:12:02 AM #
Well, Bosco, I am not a gambling man but I would obviously wager on Sony releasing (around the back-to-school rush timeframe) an updated NZ90 (NZ95?) with the improvements found in these two new NX models. That's when you'll see your BT. If not, then that will likely mean Sony has given up on BT-but I wouldn't count on that due to the Sony-Ericsson partnership and their BT-enabled phones.

Nice units, both of these, and I am really glad to see the MS Pro & CF support (but what is the definition of their "limited" support for CF cards?). Of course, I'd still prefer a Palm with dual SD slots but that'll likely never happen.

ALso, does anyone know if the "capture light" mentioned just a fancy name for a flash or is it some strange Nnightshoot/LED type of thing (like my camcorder has) that is only usable if the camera is rock-solid still?

Finally, after being relatively spoiled by the specs of the T|C, the constant RAM shortcomings in Sony's units is really getting aggrivating. Is it absolutely necessary for such a large space allocated for heap?

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
hkklife @ 6/16/2003 11:22:08 AM #
ALso, let me make an additional comment that there's a pretty nice entertainment software bundle with this unit (list is on sonystyle.com).

I think the long-time Palm users and Graffiti afficionados should take a moment of silence, since the release of this unit is likely (IMHO) the last new Palm we'll see that ships with Graffiti 1 standard (well, the Garmin iQue might, since it's been in the pipeline so long). We can certainly count on Palm SG's units not having it and the licensees will likely follow suit in the near future (with the possible exception of another smartphone or two). The end of an era!

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
abosco @ 6/16/2003 11:36:05 AM #
"Now, to say that Sony should put out a non-clamshell PDA with bluetooth and a big, 320x480 screen is one thing, but there's no way in the world that handheld is going to be a child of the TG50. It just wouldn't work. Yeesh."

Duh. Of course you leave out the thumbboard. That's the whole point, drop out that aggrivating thumbboard and add in more usable screen real estate.

HKK, your Graffiti comment brings up an interesting point. I think Sony wanted to steer clear of G2, and in doing so, they needed to use OS 5.0. But OS 5.0 only allows for the use of 16 MB RAM because OS 5.2 has the 128 MB RAM capability. Because they didn't want to make it like the older NX70v (they did it in the NX73v anyway), they added 32 MB RAM with the dynamic heap to use the extra 16 MB instead of taking up 5 MB of usable RAM. This explaination would make sense, but for the record:

I would give up Graffiti 1 if it means I get 64 MB RAM!

It looks like Palm is innovating now and Sony is stagnating. But maybe Sony will read PIC and ClieSource and see some of the complaints posted against their new releases. If you alienate the loyal fanbase...

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
JonAcheson @ 6/16/2003 11:46:21 AM #
Bosco, are we the fanbase, or just the fanboys?

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."
RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Altema @ 6/16/2003 11:59:11 AM #
Bosco, I think they left out BT because Mike is on their board, and we know how much HE hates it!

;)

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
kriegsfalke @ 6/16/2003 1:33:47 PM #
There is a good chance that the NX-73V will have Bluetooth.
As you can see at the Site qualweb.bluetoothsig.org (http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1C1251F4)
there is a Divece PEG-NX73v listed with the Bluetooth profiles:
- OPP-Client
- OPP-Server
- DUN-DT
- LAN-DT
- GAP
- Serial-DevA
- Serial-DevB
- OBEX
- BIP-ImagePush
- BIP-RemCam

But roumors say that this version will only appear on the european market


RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Spell @ 6/16/2003 4:14:26 PM #
I've got a dumb question.

I read about Bluetooth back in '99, when it was the biggest, baddest, greatest thing that hadn't actually been installed in anything. After that, the hoopla seemed to die off as WiFi and other things came around.

I read the comments regularly here, and usually there's lots of "yay Bluetooth" or "geez, why no Bluetooth" when a new product comes out ... but, I have yet to actually witness anyone using it.

So, my question is: what are the Bluetooth proponents actually using it for? Connecting cell phone to PDA to get online is the only thing that comes to mind. But maybe there's a whole world of blueness I'm missing out on? Dunno.

Thanks all.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
WileyCoyote @ 6/16/2003 4:39:32 PM #
Well you are right and BT WAS overhyped as the next great thing that would solve all connection problems. It has been trying to recover from the hype ever since.
Availability of BT devices is just now starting to take off. There are BT headsets, and keyboards and mice are not too far away from taking off. The main usefullness does look to be with phones however. Despite all the hype about WIFI the fact is that there are few open access points for the public and the real wireless network that is already in place everywhere is the cellular network. You need a cellphone with data/modem functionality to use it and if you can connect your PDA by BT to such a phone then that is the way to go. Many cellphone manufactures are now announcing BT enabled phones and cellular data services are starting to take off.
I have said that what is needed now is a separate BT to WIFI access point. TI has just announced a chipset solution to BT and WIFI interference and connectivity which should result in such a device in the not too distant future. http://www.wirelessnewsfactor.com/perl/story/21731.html

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
abosco @ 6/16/2003 4:44:19 PM #
There are other things such as connecting to desktops to do your Hotsyncs, as well as having access to email with a cell phone wherever you go. You see, I'm coming close to buying a Bluetooth phone, and there's no way I want to fetch email on a 1.5" screen. I would much rather do it with my NX. Also, there's a whole 'nother world out there of Bluetooth collaboration. You can talk to pretty much anything with Bluetooth, so long as it uses the same Bluetooth version (1.1 at the moment) from cell phones, to PDA's, to laptops, to camcorders, and in the future, maybe even place your Burger King order.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Tungsten @ 6/16/2003 7:02:46 PM #
Bluetooth, for most of us, is a solution looking for a problem. It's a useless interface unless you've found a killer app that suits your needs. Of course, in a forum like this, you shouldn't expect a fair representation of the typical PDA user.
RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Spell @ 6/16/2003 7:41:35 PM #
Thanks, all. I appreciate the info. I also appreciate that we got a couple of coherent but differing points of view.


RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Recce @ 6/16/2003 11:51:28 PM #
The answer is actually very simple. Nobody care about Bluetooth in Japan. They have 2.5/3G phones that can already do lots of wireless stuffs.

Bluetooth technology is only relevent in other parts of the world like US and Europe, which is why it might be included in European and/or US models.

"The only easy day was yesterday"

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
madhatter @ 6/17/2003 12:03:03 AM #
"The answer is actually very simple. Nobody care about Bluetooth in Japan. They have 2.5/3G phones that can already do lots of wireless stuffs"

I don't think that you are making a valid argument. Sure you can do those things on a cell phone, however by using my bluetooth PDA/phone combination I do not have to type using a numeric keypad which is slower then Christmas, and I have a screen which is at least twice the size of most small phones.

I use Bluetooth every day to do 3 things.
1. Cell phone connection without wires
2. Printer connection without wires
3. Headset to cell phone connection without wires.

The entire concept of Bluetooth was to be able to not drag a bunch of wires around to connect various products while you are on the go. It was not made as competition for 802.11. It's speed is maxed out well below 802.11b. I max out at about 56k when I use the bluetooth connection to surf the web, and check e-mail, which is fine for those short periods that I need to do so.
802.11 eliminated the need for wires in the business and now home office community. Bluetooth was designed to do the same thing for your pants pocket.

A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
ankers @ 6/17/2003 1:53:18 AM #
I bought a Tungsten T for reasons other than the BT but as I have a BT phone (Nokia 6310i) I decided I might as well experiment, now I am hooked! Fewer cables to carry, no need to align IR ports. I use it for downloading mail, surfing the web (useful for boring meetings), dialling direct from my Address book, writing SMS and now for syncing to my home PC. I use BtToggle to turn BT on/off as required and have no problem with power drain.

a Brit in Clogland
RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Satan @ 6/17/2003 3:11:09 PM #
Bluetooth, for most of us, is a solution looking for a problem. It's a useless interface unless you've found a killer app that suits your needs. Of course, in a forum like this, you shouldn't expect a fair representation of the typical PDA user.


Finally, an intelligent post.


RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
mj6798 @ 6/17/2003 3:38:41 PM #
Bluetooth, for most of us, is a solution looking for a problem.

That's what most people would say about Palms and Grafitti itself.

But if you go down the gadget route, you might as well go it down correctly. Bluetooth gives you wireless hotsync, anywhere Internet access (via GPRS phone), and dialing from your address book, and those are very useful capabilities that no other technologies makes available conveniently (IrDA tries to but is too inconvenient). Bluetooth works, it's cheap, and it's simple to use. And it is widely used outside the US. It should be a no-brainer.

It's only because people like you who judge things they don't know anything about that keep back the adoption of Bluetooth. Instead of Bluetooth, we get bulky power hungry WiFi PDAs that only work at "hotspots" and are a pain to configure. That is supposed to be better?

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
abosco @ 6/17/2003 4:40:05 PM #
Sorry, but I disagree with that last part. Wifi is not hard to configure, and if anything, it's easier than Bluetooth. It took me literally 20 seconds to get my Wifi card to work with my network on my NX. I am not joking or exaggerating. I have yet to hear anybody say their T|T setup was a peachy experience, and I've heard complaints saying the process should be easier.

Bluetooth has its use, and I'd like to use it, and it's cheap to incorporate in products. The NX80v is a $600 model and doesn't include Bluetooth. The TG50 is a $350 model and it includes Bluetooth. Problem, anyone?

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Satan @ 6/17/2003 4:52:30 PM #
- Bluetooth, for most of us, is a solution looking for a problem.

That's what most people would say about Palms and Grafitti itself.

Comparing the relative merits of Bluetooth to those of Palms and Graffiti is a very weak argument, not even worth rebutting. If you're going to try to advocate the usefulness of Bluetooth you'll need to do a lot better.

Bluetooth missed its window of opportunity and will soon be about as important as IR ports on cellphones are for most people in North America.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Stefanos @ 6/17/2003 5:41:36 PM #
"I have yet to hear anybody say their T|T setup was a peachy experience, and I've heard complaints saying the process should be easier."

For me it was a matter of about 30 seconds, literally. I still don't understand why people are having so many problems...

For those who knock bluetooth- get it through your heads, it's NOT competing with Wi-Fi! Think of it as a way to connect things WITHOUT wires. e.g. instead of using a cable to connect your cellphone with your PC (for synching contacts and messages, sending the pictures you took with the phone's camera, etc.) you do it wirelessly.

It only makes sense to use it for wireless email and internet, since data services such as GPRS are piggybacked on EXISTING mobile networks that cover the whole country.

Wi-Fi is better when it's available. Due to the T|T's limitations, bluetooth is limited to 115 kbps (!) and hence Wi-Fi would be great when you're in the corporate WLAN, at the airport, etc. However, when you're taking a trip to the countryside, or when you're on the road, you are 'forced' to use GPRS (or whatever data you have on your mobile net). Hence Wi-Fi and bluetooth are complementary- that is, if you want to be connected EVERYWHERE.

So, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth in every PDA :)

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Stefanos @ 6/17/2003 5:57:02 PM #
"Bluetooth missed its window of opportunity and will soon be about as important as IR ports on cellphones are for most people in North America."

Somehow I get the feeling you think the world revolves around one continent. Bluetooth is useful because data services like GPRS are available and very cheap all over Europe. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that one carrier only recently introduced unlimited service in the US!

As I mentioned above, since GPRS depends on the existing GSM networks deployed everywhere with 100% coverage of the country (well, the European ones anyway), bluetooth lets you have easy and practical access to the internet anywhere you go. You do NOT depend on the existense of access points.

If, like me, you've ever used IR to link your phone and access the internet, you KNOW why bluetooth is essential.

Again, I want Wi-Fi access too. It is faster than GPRS and potentially could be deployed over large areas such as cities. But until then, I am afraid I am dependent on bluetooth.

Bluetoothless
Satan @ 6/17/2003 6:39:53 PM #
Somehow I get the feeling you think the world revolves around one continent.

What part of the sentence, "Bluetooth missed its window of opportunity and will soon be about as important as IR ports on cellphones are for most people in North America." can you not understand?

Euros love Bluetooth - so what? They like soccer too. If it works for you, great. But Bluetooth hasn't and now won't ever get a foothold in North America because of the delays in getting the equipment out and the realities of the cell networks there.

The only use the average PDA user has for Bluetooth is to connect a PDA to a cellphone for access
to email/web. Besides the three Bluetooth Boosters left in North America, no-one else cares that you can connect your coffee maker, TV, oven, fridge, dishwasher, lawnmower, blender and wife using Bluetooth.

It's not that no-one understands the difference between Bluetooth and 802.11b. No-one cares about Bluetooth. And once PDA/cellphone combos start selling, Bluetooth will no longer have a raison d'etre - even in Euroland.


RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Tungsten @ 6/17/2003 7:25:57 PM #
[i]Bluetooth gives you wireless hotsync,[/i]
It's a nice thing to have, but until Bluetooth becomes as ubiquitous as IrDA, I won't bother.

[i]anywhere Internet access (via GPRS phone),[/i]
I don't use a GPRS phone, nor should I want to. I once thought too that "internet everywhere" would be the mother of all killer apps - in theory. In practice, I'm much too busy with people and surroundings to suddenly whip out a phone/pda duo to do a quick Google search. I'd much rather get some exercise running to the nearest terminal to use the internet.

[i]Bluetooth works, it's cheap, and it's simple to use.[i]
I don't doubt that it works. It may be "cheap", but there's always a cost to adoption.

[i]And it is widely used [b]outside[/b] the US. It should be a no-brainer.[/i]
Ah, but I am [i]in[/i] the US, where Bluetooth is relatively rare. No brainer.

[i]It's only because people like you who judge things they don't know anything about that keep back the adoption of Bluetooth.[/i]
I do have a right to judge things when my money is involved. If I'm "holding back" the worldwide adoption of Bluetooth, then so be it. It's a free market.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Recce @ 6/17/2003 8:44:31 PM #
You have missed my point.

My point is they don't need bluetooth there, irrespective of what it is capable of. In fact, most of the people there don't even know what is bluetooth.

Their culture is so embedded into the mobile phone technology you'd be very surprised on what that little communication device can do in Japan. Which is why whatever new technology that they come out with, it'll have some form of linkage to the mobile phone.

If you have the opportunity to spend some time in Japan, you'd know what I'm talking about (not that I've physically been to Japan, but I've been engrossed in all things Japanese, their culture, technology, video games, anime, music, robot toys etc :-)).


"The only easy day was yesterday"

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
73939133 @ 6/17/2003 10:55:07 PM #
I don't use a GPRS phone,

Your loss.

I once thought too that "internet everywhere" would be the mother of all killer apps - in theory. In practice, I'm much too busy with people and surroundings to suddenly whip out a phone/pda duo to do a quick Google search.

Again, your loss. Ubiquitous Internet access is particularly important in the US because SMS doesn't work across carriers; that is, people use E-mail and IM instead of SMS because it's the only thing that really works.

I do have a right to judge things when my money is involved.

You have a right to be as judgemental and ignorant as you like--the US Constitution grants you that. But having the right to be that doesn't change the fact that you are that.

If I'm "holding back" the worldwide adoption of Bluetooth, then so be it. It's a free market.

Who said anything about "worldwide"? The world really doesn't care how much further behind the US falls. But as a US consumer, I find it a real nuisance that telecommunications and consumer electronics are so primitive here.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
73939133 @ 6/17/2003 11:07:59 PM #
And once PDA/cellphone combos start selling, Bluetooth will no longer have a raison d'etre - even in Euroland.

PDA/cellphone combos have been selling forever in Euroland. They are a nuisance, which is why people have moved to Bluetooth for the most part.

Don't worry, in another 10 years, Americans will figure it out, too. While the US leads on some areas, US consumer technology always seems to be quite a bit behind Europe and Asia.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
neon-x @ 6/18/2003 1:57:32 AM #
I found setting up the T|T BT to my T68i peachy....

Select the phone, select the carrier, tap ok... simple...

Write an SMS in the included SMS app, tap SEND and its done....

If it was so quick to set up your wifi, I think it probably deserves to be hacked, because unless you have spent the time to properly secure it, you might as well have a lan point on your mail box outside your house for all to plug into...

Bluetooth is a perfect IR replacement, Short range, secure, quick and easy.



"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running round in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
abosco @ 6/18/2003 2:40:29 PM #
"If it was so quick to set up your wifi, I think it probably deserves to be hacked, because unless you have spent the time to properly secure it, you might as well have a lan point on your mail box outside your house for all to plug into..."

Yes, except about 10 of the 20 seconds involved entering the 128 bit WEP key.

For speed, Wifi is a growing standard across multiple computing platforms. Bluetooth still doesn't have full device to device collaboration across anything that has Bluetooth. It still involves string commands and such. I think that's much more of a nuisance than a WEP key and SSID.

These wireless types aren't going head to head. They're going in opposite directions.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Lidocaineus @ 6/18/2003 3:09:00 PM #
You can tell Satan hasn't had any practical use with Bluetooth if he thinks all you do is surf the net with it.

RE: BLUETOOTH?!?!
Stefanos @ 6/18/2003 8:50:27 PM #
"You can tell Satan hasn't had any practical use with Bluetooth if he thinks all you do is surf the net with it."

I am still trying to figure out where "Euroland" is (is it a theme park?).

(Just kidding)

Seriously, some of us need to relax with the insults... We're talking PDAs, not politics!

If I find bluetooth useful (and so do millions others around the WORLD), no one can tell me it is useless and shouldn't be put in PDAs. Again, I would like both Wi-Fi and bluetooth in my PDA.

Bluetooth vs WiFi
goofrider @ 6/21/2003 8:46:30 PM #
This is getting really old. I hear this arguement all the time.

Bluetooth vs WiFi is like USB vs Firewire.

They were orginally designed for different purposes, even though they used similiar ideas.

One was released 2 years before the other, gained wider support sooner, so people expect it to become the **standard** and displace the other, late-coming technology.

However, it doesn't change the fundamental differences between them. They are still designed for different purposes, and their implementations reflect that.

Both USB and Firewire used differential serial signalling, support hi-speed transfer, and support multiple devices on each bus. When USB 2.0 was announced, many people expected it to displace Firewire since USB was everywhere and USB 2.0 has a maximum raw data rate of 480Mbps, as opposed to Firewire's 400Mbps.

Having a competitive raw data rate doesn't change the fact that they are **fundamentally different**. USB is a host-managed protocol with a star topology, while Firewire is a hostless protocol with a bus topology. Device support in USB is largely arbituary and drivers are device-specific. Firewire has a wide set of defined application layers atop of it (e.g. DV, mLAN), and drivers are largely device-agnostic as a result.

Likewise, there are very fundamental differences between Bluetooth and 802.11x. 802.11x is less secure, and is solely a networking protocol (unless you dare to run PPPoE over 802.11x), by definition host-managed, and requires TCP/IP (and dozens of other protocols on top for TCP/IP) for most purposes. Bluetooth is a hostless, device-to-device protocol, with a much better implementation of its application layer. 802.11x's power requirements also makes it prohibitive in a lot of applications.

In conclusion, Bluetooth and 802.11x are very different. As much as you want USB to replace Firewire, there are simply things that are practical with USB. Likewise, it doesn't matter how ubiquitous WiFi is, there's still place for Bluetooth.

Stepping back a second

Quik_Fix @ 6/16/2003 12:04:30 PM #
Call me nuts, but how do these stand up to the new Zire?

Think about it...
For $400 I could have a Sony with an inferior camera and the dreaded flip n'flounder clamshell. The clamshell has never really held much ooomf with me. I coudn't see myself flipping it all the time. The one smart thing they did with this form-factor is add those hardware buttons to the top so you can game and access stuff while folded screen out.

Or I could have the Zire. If it didn't mean having to get rid of my extra cradle, keyboard, mem stick etc, I would have gotten the T|T or the Zire last time I swapped out on my Best Buy plan.

Palm has the lead here if you ask me.

PS-I tried the TG50... and went screaming back to a unit with Grafitti. I'll NEVER drop dedicated grafitti, it was horrible. I'm tramatized by it.

I can still hear the screams....

Oh my God. They found me. I dunno how but they found me...
RUN FOR IT MARTY!

Quik_Fix
quikfix@hotmail.com

RE: Stepping back a second
abosco @ 6/16/2003 12:30:06 PM #
The Zire, NX70v, and NX73v have the same resolution camera. The Zire's lens is fixed, I think. Zire picture posts seem fuzzier and granier than Clie picture posts.

While the Zire's camera is nice, it's not quite at the quality of what the more expensive Clies do. The white balance is phenominal on the NX.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

RE: Stepping back a second
fleegle @ 6/16/2003 12:45:54 PM #
Isn't the camera resolution on the Zire 71 640 x 480?

RE: Stepping back a second
Origen @ 6/16/2003 12:47:37 PM #
The lower end Clie, which has the same specs as the Zire71, is starting at $499. The Zire71 is starting at $299. What the heck is Sony thinking?
RE: Stepping back a second
Be3G @ 6/16/2003 12:51:47 PM #
One thing that caught my eye is that the NX80 camera has a neutral density feature... that's the kind of thing you find on a G5, not a cheap integrated camera!

Thomas

Check out the Palm Tungsten|T review at www.comp-talk.co.uk

RE: Stepping back a second
Minstrel @ 6/16/2003 3:02:10 PM #
"PS-I tried the TG50... and went screaming back to a unit with Grafitti. I'll NEVER drop dedicated grafitti, it was horrible. I'm tramatized by it."

Yes, the TG50 does have a rather horrible Thumboard...

But I've got a T|C, and the thumboard on it is actually usable!!

I was shocked!

Quite simply, I hate thumbboards. Give me a good messagease implementation, and I'll be very happy... but I wanted the T|C's speed, Ram, etc.

Now I'll admit that I do a lot more writing on my palm than the "ordinary" user - I write *long* emails, I write *long* journal entries, and I at least start to write complete books.

I actually used to do that happily with MessageaseKB on my m130, and I was getting pretty good/fast/accurate.

But I haven't been able to get MessageaseKB to work on my T|C, so I had to learn the thumboard (as G2's useless for me - I wasn't very good at G1 either).

So for me, at least, I can live with a TB until a tablet 320x420 comes along.

RE: Stepping back a second
MountainLogic @ 6/16/2003 6:56:20 PM #
I'd like to see more details on the NX80V's camera. The Sony site talks about a video mode. Anybody have any info on what type of resolution, frame rate and max clip length to expect?

RE: Stepping back a second
greentruck15 @ 6/16/2003 9:35:39 PM #
The Zire, NX70v, and NX73v have the same resolution camera. The Zire's lens is fixed, I think. Zire picture posts seem fuzzier and granier than Clie picture posts?

no the zire 71 is .3 megapixel..this one is 1.3

RE: Stepping back a second
rened @ 6/17/2003 8:29:16 AM #
The NX73 is still 0,3. The nx80 is 1,3 MPix.
RE: Stepping back a second
73939133 @ 6/17/2003 11:10:06 PM #
For $400 I could have a Sony with an inferior camera and the dreaded flip n'flounder clamshell. The clamshell has never really held much ooomf with me. I coudn't see myself flipping it all the time. The one smart thing they did with this form-factor is add those hardware buttons to the top so you can game and access stuff while folded screen out.

Or I could have the Zire. If it didn't mean having to get rid of my extra cradle, keyboard, mem stick etc, I would have gotten the T|T or the Zire last time I swapped out on my Best Buy plan.

The clamshell also acts as a case, and both the T|T and Zire need a screen cover. So, you either flip open the Clie, or you flip open the cover on the T|T or Zire. Basically, the Clie is like a Zire with a flip cover, except that the flip cover has a keyboard in it.

In terms of size, the Clies aren't all that big, in particular now that the bulge is gone.

In just about every other respect, the Clies are much nicer than the T|T or Zire. Of course, they are slightly more expensive, too.

Another Camera?

bigfoot @ 6/16/2003 1:28:26 PM #
How about something new without a camera.

Cheers,

RE: Another Camera?
helf @ 6/17/2003 9:17:15 AM #
yay. Someone that thinks like me.

Get rid of the friggin cams and make a small tablet palm and I might just switch to sonys.

RE: Another Camera?
rsc1000 @ 6/17/2003 3:39:54 PM #
Yeah - this seems like stupidity / silliness on the part of Sony's marketing folks. 'Gee - we're doing pretty good making in-roads into Palm marketspace, and people really got excited over the initial release of the NR - so let release a dozen gigantic brick versions of the same thing, larger, with better and better cameras, priced at 3 times as much as most mid-range Palms! surely the millions of Palm users out their will be willing to mortgage their homes to get a device thats twice as large as their previous one!'

I mean - does this make any sense what-so-ever!?! All i ever see on message board/forums for the last year is: give us 320 x 480 VG in a standard PDA formfactor - you know - like every PPC on the freakin planet! Apparently, Sony thinks this is code for "give me a thousand dollar brick with no memory and 2 mp camera". This is getting REALLY stupid.

man this sucks...

drewdiggs @ 6/16/2003 2:51:41 PM #
I've been waiting weeks for this to come out and 1) the price is way too high 2) it's not much of an upgrade 3) there were rumors of BT which turned out to be only rumors.

I want a T series w/ a virtual screen but for now, I may just get the TG50. Hopefully the WiFi memory stick will make me feel better when ever that comes out.

I've had my N710C ever since it came out and it's doing what it's always done. It works, I think I'll hold onto it until it stops working. (not mad):-)

______________________________________
"people who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us who do." - anonymous

RE: man this sucks...
ZPWeeks @ 6/16/2003 3:36:11 PM #
Sorry, but I'm pretty sure that the reason Sony has been marketing the CF WiFi cards is because they have discovered that it is virtually impossible to offer WiFi in a MS Format. They have a Bluetooth card in Japan, but bluetooth is a lot less demanding power-wise. Also, the technology in BT is intentionally a lot simpler than 802.11b/g, and so they were able to package it on extremely small devices such as Memory Sticks and SD cards.

Unfortunately, the CF slots that are WiFi-only (though I doubt that the new models will restrict the CF to just WiFi) were most likely included for the WiFi option.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see built-in or MS WiFi on a Clie.... Where was Sony on this one? Palm's been pretty dead model-wise for the past few years, and the Tungstens T and C have both managed to integrate wireless technology! Where is top-of-the-line-Sony headed? I know the european models of this new generation have BT.

I'm a HUGE Sony fan, though I have problems with their politics. However, I am tempted to ditch my trusty N760C for a Tungsten C... Unless Sony wows us with a great OS 6 device later this year... Maybe that tablet-T Clie that everyone's been wanting since the rise of the NR70.

Or, I'll pick up an NX60 if Sony decides to release an OS 6 updater (though it's unlikely... they only did that in one situation)

Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft

Rhoniel @ 6/16/2003 5:59:10 PM #
I believe that Palm / Sony are taking advantage of their pda market share by forcing us to buy such lame 16MB models at such insane prices ($400). Pretty much the same way as Microsoft always took advantage of its market share by forcing its lame products on us like Windows Me & IE.

Now I dislike Palm as much as I hate Microsoft (ok ..may be little less)

I am happy that Sony or Palm didn't release a good pda which is worth my money......in this way I won't feel bad when I'll buy my second PPC pda next year.
I guess this is a good bye to POS from my side.

Best of luck to all of you potential POS customers...


Rhoniel


2003 Toshiba e330
2002 Sony T-615
2000 Palm Vx


RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
Jeffry @ 6/16/2003 6:56:53 PM #
You'll be back... 6 months later ;)

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
antikryst @ 6/16/2003 8:27:34 PM #
well..i dont think the zire is lame..it packs a lot for $299

its just for the non pda power user though....hope they do get it right ith the T|T2

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
ganoe @ 6/16/2003 9:17:33 PM #
> I believe that Palm / Sony are taking advantage of their pda market share

What did you expect? They chased HandEra away from Palm OS and bought out Handspring. Palm and Sony will be selling these same models with a little tweak here or there 6 months to a year from now.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
Miss Clie @ 6/17/2003 8:37:43 AM #
>> I believe that Palm / Sony are taking advantage of their pda market share by forcing us to buy such lame 16MB models at such insane prices ($400). Pretty much the same way as Microsoft always took advantage of its market share by forcing its lame products on us like Windows Me & IE.

Uh.. $400 is insane?! I paid that much for my 710C back in the day. I'd say holding low end at $400 is not too bad. Now $600, I can't quite do. When you factor in all of the accessories and dongles that you end up acquiring, that really tips the scale.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
helf @ 6/17/2003 9:19:52 AM #
dude. They arent forcing 16megs on users. look at palm. The TC has 51megs of usable ram! I'm sure the next generation of sonys will have 32 or more (ahahahhaha...yeah right..)..

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
Satan @ 6/17/2003 1:21:33 PM #
- I believe that Palm / Sony are taking advantage of their pda market share

What did you expect? They chased HandEra away from Palm OS and bought out Handspring. Palm and Sony will be selling these same models with a little tweak here or there 6 months to a year from now.

Get serious. Sony has put out approximately a dozen models in the past year. They're trying to see what sells right now, but expecting a radically different model to be released every second month is absurd. Even Palm has put out more truly new models in the past year than they ever have. Perhaps you're unaware how long it took Palm to make the dramatic leap from the V to the Vx. When these companies sit still, people complain. When they actually try to innovate, people complain. Bottom line is, one year from now you will be seeing hardware from Sony and Sony's Palm© division that makes current models look as lame as the Palm m505.

Now that Sony has started its takeover of Palm (http://biz.yahoo.com/e/030414/palm10-q.html), the HandEra wildcard has been effectively neutralized by Sonyzilla. HandEra management was - as always - clueless and the market will suffer because these "hick engineers" didn't have what it takes to compete at this level. Small, arrogant companies that try to run with big dogs like Sony and Microsoft will invariably get f***ed.

The TRGPro remains the best-designed PDA ever sold, almost four years after its release. This is a poor reflection on the remaining PDA manufacturers.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
mj6798 @ 6/17/2003 3:44:30 PM #
I believe that Palm / Sony are taking advantage of their pda market share by forcing us to buy such lame 16MB models at such insane prices ($400)

Nobody is "forcing" you to buy anything. The reason for the restricted memory (and many other unpleasant limitations of these machines) is Palm's operating system. If you don't like it, buy something else or don't buy anything at all.

I frankly think PalmOS sucks, but on balance, the applications and GUI on PalmOS are still somewhat better than what I can get on PocketPC, so I stick with PalmOS--for now.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
ganoe @ 6/17/2003 4:45:05 PM #
> Get serious. Sony has put out approximately a dozen models in the
> past year. They're trying to see what sells right now, but expecting
> a radically different model to be released every second month is absurd.

What is your point? These new devices, to the average consumer, look like minor tweaks from the NR70V over a year ago. So who cares if they've introduced 12 models in the meantime. Given past history Sony will still be milking these same designs 6 months to a year from now, and Palm will still be milking the Zire 71 and Tungsten C. They effectively have a monopoly on the Palm OS, so there's no reason for them to compete with the RAM and other hardware on "other OS" PDAs, or for them to provide a 320x480 non-clamshell PDA.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
Satan @ 6/17/2003 5:20:32 PM #
These new devices, to the average consumer, look like minor tweaks from the NR70V over a year ago. So who cares if they've introduced 12 models in the meantime. Given past history Sony will still be milking these same designs 6 months to a year from now...

Looking at the rapid progression of Sony's Palm OS PDAs over the past two years, most intelligent observers would disagree with you. Time will soon educate you as to exactly how wrong you are.

They effectively have a monopoly on the Palm OS, so there's no reason for them to compete with the RAM and other hardware on "other OS" PDAs, or for them to provide a 320x480 non-clamshell PDA.

Wrong again. Sony/Palm is not trying to cater to the needs of the PDA fanatics on this site. Most of their customers would be satisfied with the amount of memory in current models and have no real need for Bluetooth. Sony/Palm is competing with Microsoft, Dell, Nokia and several others on various fronts and are experimenting with products for different niches. But they are fully aware that consumers are very fickle and an OS that's dominant today can become a fringe player overnight. (Apple wouldn't even still be here if it wasn't in Microsoft's best interests for them to exist.)

The platform finally has features that demo well in stores, so Sony has naturally gone overboard with "featuritis". ( even though many of Sony's current models are too bulky to be pocketed. The main deficiency in the Sony/Palm lineup has been failure to provide a simple unit for users like the Palm V series. A thin, compact model with a good 320 x 480 screen + expansion will sell well and Sony/Palm aren't dumb enough to ignore the bottom line.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
Rhoniel @ 6/17/2003 6:51:52 PM #
________________________________________________________
Nobody is "forcing" you to buy anything. The reason for the restricted memory (and many other unpleasant limitations of these machines) is Palm's operating system. If you don't like it, buy something else or don't buy anything at all.
_____________________________________________________

Read my original post carefully. Now I have a Toshiba e330, 64MB ram and decent MP3 player, decent battery life than other slim design clie's, all of it only for $220. OS is a bit unstable but nothing unbearable. Palm and Sony have lost me and keep on losing many other potential customers daily. That's how market share of PPC is growing, not because PPC is better, bcoz Palm / Sony are scr***ing us.

________________________________________________________
dude. They arent forcing 16megs on users. look at palm. The TC has 51megs of usable ram! I'm sure the next generation of sonys will have 32 or more (ahahahhaha...yeah right..)..
__________________________________________________________

Sure T|C has more ram but why Palm is making you pay $450+ for it when dozen of other manufacturers are selling a 64MB pda for only $250. Only because we are layal (or stupid) enough to spend $450+ on a 64 MB pda and then can live happily with a mono headphone jack.

_________________________________________________________
Wrong again. Sony/Palm is not trying to cater to the needs of the PDA fanatics on this site. Most of their customers would be satisfied with the amount of memory in current models and have no real need for Bluetooth. Sony/Palm is competing with Microsoft, Dell, Nokia and several others on various fronts
__________________________________________________________

Ha Ha Ha Ha. Please enlighten me here. If 64 MB and a VG screen, slim design PDA is only a demand of PDA freaks, then why half-dozen of other manufacturers (toshiba, viesonic, hp......) are making and selling such pda's? I've heard that almost 4-5 of hp's new pda's will have bluetooth (not to mention 64 MB ram), which will be targeted at common consumer. But according to your opinion Palm / Sony are planning to compete with 16MB and no bluetooth. No wonder Palm is losing money for so long.

Rhoniel

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
maven @ 6/17/2003 7:38:39 PM #
Rhoniel says: "Now I have a Toshiba e330, 64MB ram and decent MP3 player, decent battery life than other slim design clie's, all of it only for $220. OS is a bit unstable but nothing unbearable."

I think that last line of yours captures the essence of it. Millions of us are willing to pay extra for stability in our organizers/PDAs.

It's like saying "sure, my car dies every few miles, but look at all the horsepower under the hood!"

You've been indited by your own words. Crawl back onto a PPC site troll.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
Satan @ 6/17/2003 7:50:51 PM #
_________________________________________________________
Wrong again. Sony/Palm is not trying to cater to the needs of the PDA fanatics on this site. Most of their customers would be satisfied with the amount of memory in current models and have no real need for Bluetooth. Sony/Palm is competing with Microsoft, Dell, Nokia and several others on various fronts
__________________________________________________________

Ha Ha Ha Ha. Please enlighten me here. If 64 MB and a VG screen, slim design PDA is only a demand of PDA freaks, then why half-dozen of other manufacturers (toshiba, viesonic, hp......) are making and selling such pda's? I've heard that almost 4-5 of hp's new pda's will have bluetooth (not to mention 64 MB ram), which will be targeted at common consumer. But according to your opinion Palm / Sony are planning to compete with 16MB and no bluetooth. No wonder Palm is losing money for so long.

Rhoniel

Grasshopper, since it appears that English is not your first language, you should read this thread again. Secondly, you appear to believe that 64 MB RAM in a PocketPC PDA is as useful as 64 MB RAM in a Palm OS PDA. You are wrong. The PocketPC OS is not as elegant as the Palm OS and PocketPC programs tend to be much larger/less efficient than their Palm OS equivalents (assuming there is one). Thirdly, not many people would call the PocketPC PDAs "slim design(s)". Fourthly, most Palm OS customers - though not necessarily the fanatics on this site - are satisfied with fairly simple specs as long as the screen looks nice and the device is not too bulky. The average user does not use their PDA to run a server, do computer animation and run AutoCAD like people on this site seem to do. The average user (i.e. probably over 95% of users) doesn't know or care about processor speed, will be happy with 16 - 32 MB and doesn't care about Bluetooth.

Sony/Palm's main mistake right now is in not producing a small, thin PDA like the Palm V series with a good 320 x 480 screen. This odd omission will soon be corrected.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
ganoe @ 6/17/2003 11:09:05 PM #
> Sony/Palm's main mistake right now is in not producing a
> small, thin PDA like the Palm V series with a good 320 x 480
> screen. This odd omission will soon be corrected.

Hilarious! Please wake me up when that happens. As I already said Palm/Sony will still be milking these current designs 6 months to a year from now. Time will tell.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
Rhoniel @ 6/18/2003 1:29:16 AM #
>>Crawl back onto a PPC site troll.

Though I’ve lost my T-615 but I still have my Palm Vx, so you can’t call me a troll. Not yet.

I’ve read this ‘average customer doesn’t need more ram or power’ comment many times but somehow I couldn’t make my self to agree with it. We know that average consumer DOES want a Mercedes, a BMW, a big screen TV, a 2+GH processor and 500MB ram on a desktop or a color pda even if he or she doesn’t need it. I have 40+ collegues, which have a pda (all of them have a POS device) and most of them can be classified as average customer. At least 20% of them have sought my advice before buying one. I am planning to show off my device to them and will see what choices do they make in next six months. I’ll keep you posted. Good day gentlemen.

Rhoniel

BTW you’re right, English is not my first language and if you think that only POS devices have "slim design(s)" then visit your nearest BestBuy or CompUSA store before posting a reply.

RE: Now I hate Palm / Sony as much as I hate Microsoft
helf @ 6/18/2003 10:10:51 AM #
Ha Ha Ha Ha. Please enlighten me here. If 64 MB and a VG screen, slim design PDA is only a demand of PDA freaks, then why half-dozen of other manufacturers (toshiba, viesonic, hp......) are making and selling such pda's?
------

Um..PocketPCs don't have "VG" and as you well know, they can make less use of that 64megs of ram than palm pda's can. Your average consumer looks at numbers, If they see big numbers they tend to think its better for some weird reason.

Incremental, but not too shabby...

Dr Opinion @ 6/16/2003 11:31:42 PM #
Incremental...

(1) CF slot can be used for memory cards ("only")... this is great... a triumph of the Engineering Dept over Memory Stick Thought Police [:)]

(2) App buttons on tablet mode... this is huge for gamers and VG fans. It means the device can basically run in tablet mode *all* *the* *time*... this means it really can operate as your "640x480" tablet y'all are whining an' pining for... maybe you should think of this as "640x480 tablet palm device v1.0"... [:)]

(3) A little more memory (could try harder)

(4) No BT. Dumb decision, but everyone's doing it (eg, Zire71, Garmin, TC). I live in SG... loads of wifi points everywhere, but I need to be able to fall back to my phone when out of range. It's a pity there's no WiFi/BT Palms yet... this is the only area where PPC still has a lead.


"...I looked up "antediluvian", and they had a picture of a Pocket PC." ;)

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
a3 @ 6/17/2003 8:48:31 AM #
It's 320x480... and yes, I agree with you about using it as a tablet, but if you take out the backlit thumboard, the hinge and even the camera, we would be paying, say US$50 less? US$100?
RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
a3 @ 6/17/2003 8:54:31 AM #
And you'll also get rid of some of its size...

_______________________________________
Already a Tapwave's Helix fan.
RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
orb2069 @ 6/17/2003 1:33:00 PM #
(1) CF slot can be used for memory cards ("only")... this is great... a triumph of the Engineering Dept over Memory Stick Thought Police [:)]

Yeah - I think Sony is realizing that consumers in the US aren't quite as idiotic as they assumed... Their latest generation of 'expanded' CD players do unpoisoned MP3 as well as ATRAC.

If they keep at this like demons for the next year or two, maybe they'll have as much CF functionality as HE's last release of the 330 OS...

I guess the thing that bothers me about most of the high-end Clie' is, between the screen pivot, the rotate, and now the pop-up CF slot, the thing's practically a Transformer. There's a lot of mechanical stuff to go wrong - You know that people are still using/selling Newton 100s and Palm1000s, right? I can't see working N*-?0's being up on eBay in 2008.

I guess this stuff only matters to me because I seem to be the guy everybody I know brings their sick PDA to, going 'Me sad! Fix!'. I guess if you've got $600+ to pitch the minute your warranty expires, it's less of an issue.

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
Satan @ 6/17/2003 3:30:19 PM #
Yeah - I think Sony is realizing that consumers in the US aren't quite as idiotic as they assumed...

Actually, Sony knows exactly how idiotic consumers in the US are. Their product planners aren't losing sleep over 100 geeks complaining about Sony on PDA sites. People need to complain directly to Sony and refuse to buy poorly-designed products if they really want things to change.

If they keep at this like demons for the next year or two, maybe they'll have as much CF functionality as HE's last release of the 330 OS...

It's rude to gloat. And the HandEra 330 was one of the ugliest PDAs ever sold - designed by the same firm that did the Pontiac Aztec. They should have just made it with a simple black case like the Palm IIIxe.

I guess the thing that bothers me about most of the high-end Clie' is...the thing's practically a Transformer.

Yes, the new Sony models look a bit like Grimlock. Just not quite as smart.

You know that people are still using/selling Newton 100s and Palm1000s, right? I can't see working N*-?0's being up on eBay in 2008.

Good designs like the early Palms tend to hold up well. But simplicity and solid construction are dead. PDAs are now commodity items, so manufacturers will try to use gimmicks to differentiate their models until the market matures.

PDA functionality hasn't changed significantly since the PalmPilot 1000 - the platform needs to evolve into properly-integrated cellphone/PDAs. One device with seamless access to voice, email, no-compromise web browser, contacts + appointments and in a package no larger than the phone many people are already carrying. Carrying two devices makes little sense to the typical consumer, so phone-less PDAs will eventually become a fringe market. All-dancing, all-singing mininotebook-wannabe CLIEs will be just a footnote (like the Visor Springboards now are) in two years. Handspring, Samsung, et. al. are moving in the right direction.

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
rsc1000 @ 6/17/2003 3:50:45 PM #
>>No BT. Dumb decision, but everyone's doing it (eg, Zire71, Garmin, TC).

Well - everybody shouldn't be doing it. T|C - it has no BT because it has WiFi. Garmin - it has no BT because it has GPS (probable interference?). Zire71 - no BT because it is lowend/midrange PDA. Every high-end device (except ones with WiFi) should offer BT as default wireless option. Its been incredibly lame how badly supported this standard is. It was difficult to find a store in all of Toronto that actually offered a BT USB solution or access point for desktop PCs. The idiots who work at these places inevitably said something like "No, we used to have em but they just didn't sell - not very popular". Of course, if you asked them about BT, they couldnt tell you anything about it or what it might be used for! (none of a dozen stores i visited were aware of the concept of connecting from a pda to a pc). The real reason it hasn't taken off is because their are no devices here that use BT. The cards/usb dongle have been out for over a year and now their gone from a lot of stores because nobody knew what they were for. Talk about bad marketing, and bad roll-out on the part OEMs involved on all sides of this. And now Sony is adding to the problem. I thought that BT was finally at a (much promised) price-point that it could now chreaply be added to any device? If thats the case, what the freakin hold-up?

Bluetooth is dead
Satan @ 6/17/2003 5:10:50 PM #
In North America, no-one cares about it and it will soon be redundant. Get over it and go back to listening to your 8 track tapes.

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
rsc1000 @ 6/17/2003 6:23:35 PM #
>>In North America, no-one cares about it and it will soon be redundant. Get over it and go back to listening to your 8 track tapes.

Gee - what a smart guy you are! So, when you are on the road, and wish to connect yr PDA to the internet, and theres no wifi access point around (like, uhh, 99.9% of the area of North America) you use....what exactly? Oh, right - compared to us technologically challenged troglodytes, you are much more advanced. You just pop into yr timemachine, go forward 3 yrs and grab an 802.11g equipped phone, then pop back and connect to the net. Poor us - we're stuck with our lowly 8-tracks and Bluetooth phones:(

troll.

Beating a dead Bluetooth
Satan @ 6/17/2003 7:13:17 PM #
Its been incredibly lame how badly supported this standard is. It was difficult to find a store in all of Toronto that actually offered a BT USB solution or access point for desktop PCs. The idiots who work at these places inevitably said something like "No, we used to have em but they just didn't sell - not very popular".

So you expect those "idiots" to keep stocking something that "just didn't sell - not very popular"? You need to whine to the "idiot" waiting for you
in your bathroom mirror - (s)he'll understand you. Maybe.

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
rsc1000 @ 6/17/2003 7:45:04 PM #
>>So you expect those "idiots" to keep stocking something that "just didn't sell - not very popular"? You need to whine to the "idiot" waiting for you
in your bathroom mirror - (s)he'll understand you. Maybe.

No - they are idots not because they don't stcok BT devices (i woudn't either because of the lack of devices) - they are (as is typical) idots because they don't know anything about the products they sell, let alone the products they don't / or used to sell. Now Satan (gee that cool) - why are you an idiot? Is it because you don't seem to understand my complaint?

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
rsc1000 @ 6/17/2003 7:45:04 PM #
>>So you expect those "idiots" to keep stocking something that "just didn't sell - not very popular"? You need to whine to the "idiot" waiting for you
in your bathroom mirror - (s)he'll understand you. Maybe.

I really shouldn't post in anger. the correct post, without typos:

No - they are idiots not because they don't stock BT devices (i woudn't either because of the lack of devices) - they are (as is typical) idiots because they don't know anything about the products they sell, let alone the products they don't / or used to sell. Now Satan (gee thats cool) - why are you an idiot? Is it because you don't seem to understand my complaint?

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
rsc1000 @ 6/17/2003 7:50:31 PM #
So Satan - how do you connect yr PDA when yr not near an access point? I now know that BT is just like dated 8-track technology - so what is the 'new solution'? Well?

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
Dr Opinion @ 6/17/2003 10:45:43 PM #
> "T|C - it has no BT because it has WiFi."

That's not a reason. PPCs have both.

> "BT sucks [blah blah blah]"

IrDA is better than a cable for connecting your phone and PDA, since there's no messy dongles etc. BT is better than IrDA, since it's not a LoS phenomenon. BT is better than WiFi for PAN connections, since it's cheap to include, much lower power, and quite adequate for GPRS-grade internet speeds.

Failure to include this technology is simply an attempt to differentiate product lines...

"...I looked up "antediluvian", and they had a picture of a Pocket PC." ;)

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
ganoe @ 6/17/2003 10:57:25 PM #
> Well - everybody shouldn't be doing it.
> T|C - it has no BT because it has WiFi.

Which considerably decreases its usefulness away from WiFi hotspots.

> Garmin - it has no BT because it has GPS (probable interference?).

Interference? Hmmm ... that must be why there are at least 3 Bluetooth GPS modules available today.

> Zire71 - no BT because it is lowend/midrange PDA.

Ah yes, also probably the only reason why I don't own a Zire 71.

RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
orb2069 @ 6/21/2003 3:23:22 AM #
People need to complain directly to Sony and refuse to buy poorly-designed products if they really want things to change.
Friends don't let friends... :) I'm not too interested in forcing Sony to behave - And I'm definately not too interested in their products.

It's rude to gloat.
What, did your side get Dale 'How to win friends and influence people' Carnagie? I always figured there'd be Management Effectiveness seminars in hell.

And the HandEra 330 was one of the ugliest PDAs ever sold designed by the same firm that did the Pontiac Aztec.
You must have missed the blue-and-white prototype of the color HE330 - Handera was definately run by a bunch of engineers... I can't imagine them even THINKING that they needed a design firm.
The Helios were gawdawful gaudy, as well.

Good designs like the early Palms tend to hold up well.
The 1000's are pretty poor design, actually - connectors to come loose, case plastic's too thin in some spots, etc... But they're still a lot better than the Handspring Visors, and their six-to-eight push-together connectors.

But simplicity and solid construction are dead.
Not really - The M100 and Zire got really drubbed on these boards, but the plexi digitizer screens and single-board construction make them REALLY rugged. I saw some guy drop his m100 out of his jacket pocket @15', and say 'Toss that up to me' without concern.


RE: Incremental, but not too shabby...
Satan @ 6/21/2003 4:31:56 AM #
What, did your side get Dale 'How to win friends and influence people' Carnagie?

Also, always respect your elders and eat your vegetables.

Love,
Mom

You must have missed the blue-and-white prototype of the color HE330 - Handera was definately run by a bunch of engineers... I can't imagine them even THINKING that they needed a design firm.

At least the 330 could be ordered with an optional bottle of silver touch up paint.

- But simplicity and solid construction are dead.

Not really - The M100 and Zire got really drubbed on these boards, but the plexi digitizer screens and single-board construction make them REALLY rugged. I saw some guy drop his m100 out of his jacket pocket @15', and say 'Toss that up to me' without concern.

The M100 was a decent entry level device, but the Zire's hardware is a step backwards. They could probably have priced the Zire at $80, but since it's selling, there's no need to change anything.

no difference between NX70v and NX73V

AW @ 6/17/2003 3:21:08 AM #
There is absoluely no major upgrade from NX70V to NX73V.. apart from the 4 hardware keys on the screen. This is a great opportunity for me to buy the NX70V at a low price before it discontinues =)


whaddaya guys thinK?

- a n t h 0 n y

RE: no difference between NX70v and NX73V
Jeffry @ 6/17/2003 1:04:50 PM #
The NX70v does not come with the decuma software, doesn't have a retractable CF slot, and no backlit keyboard. There are differences but they are not significant...

RE: no difference between NX70v and NX73V
Kaitou @ 6/17/2003 8:45:50 PM #
and a 40% battery life increase, smaller in height, with marginal width, more functional CF, nicer screen, better bundled software.. this is an incremental upgrade, and meant for people who don't have an NX already, I'd wager. It's a worthwhile upgrade for me, from my NR70V, just as the NX70 wasn't big enough of a change for an upgrade, some odd 8 months ago.

clamshell factor

sonylover @ 6/17/2003 7:52:48 AM #
Anyone remember those old Casio organizers that now
cost about only $50? They were clamshell and would be
perfect as a mini laptop but in Palm Os mode and could
work as a widescreen (not tall screen) pda for playing
movies, etc? Putting it horizontally might wreak havoc
on programs through, but sony could put in a
silkscreen graffiti on one side to make the screen a
standard square until software producers caught up,
and the keyboard could be made larger.Just that they
were a little big! I can't believe sony skimped with
only 32mb of memory in these, they usually try for the
highest! Eagerly awaiting OS 6!

Sony's product cycle is in dog years!
RE: clamshell factor
orb2069 @ 6/17/2003 1:49:03 PM #
Putting it horizontally might wreak havoc
on programs through, but sony could put in a
silkscreen graffiti on one side to make the screen a
standard square until software producers caught up,
and the keyboard could be made larger.

That's what Handera did with their last beta 4.1OS upgrade. It does break some things, but the stuff it works with is really nice, particularly when combined with the write-anywhere graffiti. Really nice with the built-in apps. They also rotated the input, which was a really neat touch.

The clamshell is pretty much a dead format, though - Microsoft dropped it, the Diamond Mako/Psion never really caught the market right, etc, etc. Maybe if you could do the same thing with them that you can do with TabletPCs(rotate the keyboard all the way around), they might have better luck, but then you're caught between making a huge handheld with a reasonable keyboard size, and making a reasonably-sized handheld with a too-tiny keyboard.

RE: clamshell factor
mj6798 @ 6/17/2003 3:48:36 PM #
You could do the same with a PDA: the Sharp Zaurus C760 does it: 640x480 screen, 128M of Flash, 32M of memory, better keyboard than any Palm, and comparable in size and weight to these Clies. In addition, it has a decent OS (Linux). Unfortunately, it's Japan-only.

RE: clamshell factor
robrecht @ 6/17/2003 5:05:05 PM #
Dynamism.com sells many Japan only products with English OS, including the Zaurus.

Thanks, robrecht

He who has the most/biggest toys...wins?

Puck @ 6/17/2003 10:05:54 PM #
It's seems simple to me - Sony continues to play heavily to the entertainment set - at least more so than Palm. It also seems to me that simple factor is the main point of divergence (and source of bickering) among PIC forum participants.

I admire Sony for taking this direction - as hardware capacity continues to grow, they'll be leading the pack that pursue the entertainment market, particularly with MS crowd following the same direction.

It's less clear where Palm is headed, but the Handspring acquisition seems to focus them squarely on the business market (which, by the way, craves efficiency of form, not the "brick"-inspired design Sony pursues these days.

I think Palm's course is unquestionably the riskiest as the lion's share of their users are not purely business focused, meaning Palm's direction requires developing the business market size rather extensively.

Whichever your camp - gamer or seeker of business efficiency and elegance - the course of PDA evolution is damned fun to watch.

These are right specification for new CLIE

northstar31 @ 6/18/2003 2:13:16 PM #
Hi there : I think Sony is Making a big mistake when they release those two new models, i really was expected the following specifications at least which are :
- OS 5.2
- 64 RAM Internal
- 320 x 420 HR Color screen
- VG
- New Xscale procsesor 400 MHZ
- Bulit in BLUETOOTH

But the really disappoint us.


NX73 in Europe

Edward Green @ 6/19/2003 10:30:31 PM #
According to Sony Style Europe we are getting the NX73 with bluetooth. The problem - pricing - at £450 they are placing the device way above the |T|C| at £400, or the TG50 & |T|T| at £300. Plus 'street' prices for Palm hardware tend to be lower compared to RRP than the Clies.

The TG50 at £250 and the NX73 at £350 might make a dent in Palm's line up. As it is I see Sony losing market share to Palm and Pocket PC. Sony needs to regain agressive pricing in this market place.

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

320x480

sonylover @ 6/24/2003 2:16:05 PM #
Sounds like most people would be more happy if they could just rip the screen half off one of these things and use it as such.

Sony's product cycle is in dog years!
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