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Comments on: Visto to Create New Palm OS Email Client

PalmSource and Visto Corp have announced that the companies will work together to build a standard enterprise-grade wireless email client for the Palm OS platform. The new client will become the default messaging solution for the Palm OS.
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Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago

Satan @ 6/19/2003 2:29:02 PM #
Echo:


Unfortunately, the feeble hardware they kept churning out at during the "Zen of Palm" era was suboptimal for proper business integration.

PocketPC has an obvious advantage called Microsoft - the ultimate lever. Dell is legitimizing PocketPC as an enterprise solution. In July, Gateway will be shipping a 400 MHz PocketPC model with CF and SD slots for $300, again showing that a lot of Palm OS hardware is comparatively overpriced. Microsoft's upcoming OS revision probably won't make a big difference, but next year's new OS will no doubt have the potential for tight integration into enterprise/business infrastructures.

Go to Dell, buy your company's server, workstations, PCs, laptops and PocketPCs all running Shades of Microsoft. Not necessarily the best solution, but one stop shopping is what businesses look for. Palm may eventually be able to cobble together an effective alliance, but they've already wasted too much time.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/19/2003 2:45:16 PM #
Oops...

http://www.visto.com/news/press-releases/2003/0109/

"(Las Vegas, NV, January 9, 2003) –Visto Corporation (www.visto.com)... demonstrated Visto MessageXpressTM, a personal e-mail solution for the Microsoft Windows Powered Pocket PC and Microsoft Windows Powered Smartphone, today at the Consumer Electronics Show and announced that Visto and Microsoft Corp. will work together to market and sell this rapidly deployable solution..."

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
BUDD @ 6/19/2003 4:18:07 PM #
The 'Zen of Palm' era and mindset is what MADE palm the success it is/was (80%+ market share). The feeble hardware was matched effectively with a very stable OS--surely you remember that. Unless you felt the over-ambitious but unreliable hardware AND Software of the WINCE world was actually better. I was there. Surely not.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
BUDD @ 6/19/2003 4:20:55 PM #
But then my mother told me not to talk to you.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
helf @ 6/19/2003 4:53:46 PM #
Maybe some palm manufacturer will wake up and give us a palm with sd and cf with 64megs of ran ,400mhz cpu and 320x480 screen for 4-500 :
*ill keep dreaming*

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
RhinoSteve @ 6/19/2003 8:56:24 PM #
Satan, you been drinking way too much of the Microsoft Kool-Aide to believe what you just wrote.

The matter of the fact is, after Microsoft products get off the desktop and into a space, they fall on their face. PDAs are not exception. The returns on PocketPCs and lack of utilization is very poor.


RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
blueHaze @ 6/20/2003 12:15:19 AM #
yeah employee are having way too much fun with PPC. They all should get a Zire.
RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/20/2003 2:17:41 AM #
The 'Zen of Palm' era and mindset is what MADE palm the success it is/was (80%+ market share). The feeble hardware was matched effectively with a very stable OS--surely you remember that. Unless you felt the over-ambitious but unreliable hardware AND Software of the WINCE world was actually better. I was there. Surely not.

Wrong. What made Palm is having a brilliant idea (PDA), linking it to an intuitive OS that's easy to code for and being early out of the gates with a reasonably compact package. Some competitors like Apple and Psion may have had better hardware, but failed because their PDAs were too bulky or poorly promoted. Palm succeeded in spite of - not because of - the primitive hardware. Compare the PalmPilot 1000 to the Vx - other than cosmetics, there isn't much difference in hardware despite them being released several years apart. In some ways, because Palm nailed the PDA design right from the beginning, no-one cared that the hardware wasn't being developed. But while Palm grew fat and lazy on sales of the ridiculously overpriced Palm V, etc., they apparently forgot that technology moves on. Their management came up with the brilliant "Zen on Palm" tripe and managed to turn a potential liability into something Palm devotees actually saw as a positive. It's amazing to see how many people swallowed the "Zen of Palm" and contine to babble about it.

Multimedia, color screens? Who needs them? They'll only wreck battery life.
- Do you still see Palm touting 2 month battery life now? Why are they selling PDAs with MP3 players, color screens and cameras? What would Zen Master say about this, Grasshopper?

Expansion? Who needs it?
- In reality most users don't need it, but had Palm bothered to offer it years ago, it could have been been developed and helped entrench their OS in the business world.

640 KB of conventional memory? Who needs it?
- Wait, that's a different company.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/20/2003 3:17:09 AM #
yeah employee are having way too much fun with PPC. They all should get a Zire.

Now, now - play nice, children!


RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/20/2003 3:19:55 AM #
Satan, you been drinking way too much of the Microsoft Kool-Aide to believe what you just wrote.

The matter of the fact is, after Microsoft products get off the desktop and into a space, they fall on their face. PDAs are not exception. The returns on PocketPCs and lack of utilization is very poor.


The Cult of Palm are the ones pushing new Zen-flavored Kool-Aid® on the flock. If you dislike Microsoft, fine. But they are the stardard in the workplace and have stayed that way for several reasons. So far, Microsoft's PDA OS offerings have definitely been less stable + less intuitive than Palm OS. But Microsoft has the resources to eventually get it right. If PocketPC 4 comes out next year and is able to replicate the speed, stability + simplicity (future ad slogan) of Palm OS, what do you think will happen? Hardware with impressive specs from the likes of Dell, HP, Gateway, etc. will be around. Since Microsoft software already dominates many businesses, they already have their foot in the door for becoming the business/enterprise solution.

Palm should have formed their Coalition of the Willing a long time ago.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
flywheel @ 6/20/2003 7:39:19 AM #
Why does everybodt keep on mantioning a 400Mhz processor - well who cares if the PPC is using a 400Mhz xScale, the IPC of this processor is much lower than the concurrent ARM. Is it frequency or performance you want ??
And another thing, PPC is a great deal more ressource hungry than PalmOS, why design a PDA as it is as PPC machine ?

I really do love the latest generation of PDA's from Palm, yes even the Tungsten C with its 400Mhz xScale - tada and you're online ... fabulous. Unfortunately I cannot afford these gadets and am forced to use my Clié 770 for a long time yet - but then again, it does deliver what I need, with its 33mhz MC Dragonball and that extremely wonderfull DSP of its.

Live long and prosper...

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
a3 @ 6/20/2003 8:56:08 AM #
Hey Satan:
1.- You are openly stating that PPC2003 is not gonna be a major change(as everyone already knows).
2.- You are implying that PPC2004(which I've never heard of) is gonna be as simple, intuitive, stable as Palm OS, what will happen then is your question. Well let me answer you with another question: back wen PPC was WinCE (they even had to change its name) we only had 33Mhz processors, 2Mb, and 160x160 mono screens. Then PPC came along with their whomping 240x320 color screens, 200Mhz processors, 32Mb and a lot of people (maybe even you) saw that as Palm's Doomsday. After a couple of years we are still here and now we have 320x480 color screens, 200-400Mhz processors and 16-128Mb, not to mention the most important part: an intuitive, easy to use and even powerful OS5 (not to mention OS6 that will be due before your PPC2004). So based exclusively in the above facts if PPC did not take over Palm two years ago, I don't think it's gonna be easier now no matter what they come up with.
3.- One thing is for sure: thanks to PPC Palm has had to become stronger in features, hardware, price. So anyway we have to thank Microsoft even if we don't like it.
______________________________________________________
Who said it was gonna be easy?
RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
mongrot @ 6/20/2003 9:46:11 AM #
So I guess the standard greeting in Hell is:

"Welcome to Hell, here is your PocketPC."


RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
RhinoSteve @ 6/20/2003 11:56:12 AM #
Well if you really want to get down and and dirty on this, who here would even consider taking business advise from someone with a handle of "Satan"???

And before you rip on my handle, the name comes from being able to take insults like yours and not to be swayed by it. So this is another reason why I see Emperor Bill has no clothes in the PDA realm. Fortunately, the same goes with the vast majority of the PDA customer base.

The Microsoft anti-trust practice of putting out a desktop proprietary format to leverage market share (what .NET is all about.) is failing in both the PDA and sever market since the customer base is more educated than Microsoft is willing to admit. This did in IBM, it is doing in Microsoft.

Also, Satan review your stock portfolio and short any desktop OS companies. That is if you have the money for a portfolio.
RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
a3 @ 6/20/2003 2:32:18 PM #
And one more thing: if you visit PC magazine (www.pcmag.com) you'll see that they have a TOP SELLER PDA list and guess what OS is in the first 4 in the list? Hint: It's not PPC nor Linux. As a matter of fact, guess the brand of the first 3? Hint: It starts with a P...

Apparently Palm's renewed ZEN or whatever you wanna call it is not so bad after all!
_____________________________________________________
Maybe, maybe not but, most probably, who knows?

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
macshimidh @ 6/20/2003 4:35:21 PM #
Satan:

1. PalmOS is already the enterprise standard, enjoying around 85% of the business market. Couple this with its excellent integration with MS desktop apps and poof-- there goes your lever.

2. Bringing a device to market with the lowest possible pricepoint may be the best approach among consumers, but enterprise buyers are more concerned with TCO. Multiple studies have shown that PalmOS handhelds have up to 44% lower TCO comard with PocketPC handhelds. As someone who consults on and supports handheld deployments for businesses, I can tell you that selling a PocketPC-based solution to a management team who follows IT news on even a fairly casual level is a tough sell.

3. Dude, Dell already sells PalmOS devices (from multiple licensees, in fact). So where's the hassle? You can go straight to their oder site and say "I'll take 2000 Clie's and a side of XP servers!" and they won;t even bat an eye. However, try putting an IBM order in for 12 Linux servers and a dozen iPaq's and you'll be out of luck.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
iebnn @ 6/20/2003 10:45:51 PM #
RhinoSteve is that you from minuteman?

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/21/2003 3:44:08 AM #
Hey Satan:
2.- You are implying that PPC2004(which I've never heard of) is gonna be as simple, intuitive, stable as Palm OS, what will happen then is your question.

Having not yet used PPC 4, I implied no such thing. But Microsoft did not get to their current position by giving up market space to anyone. Their PDA OS has failed because so far they have been trying to bring the Windows desktop to the PDA rather than starting on a fresh page. Looking back at WIN CE and PPC, Microsoft would have been better off just buying Palm (or even PSION) several years ago. But as Netcape, Corel, Apple, etc. now know, Microsoft doesn't exactly compete on a level playing field. It just remains to be seen if they can finally tame their tendency toward bloated code. They are fully aware of the advantages of the Palm OS, so don't be surprised to see some of these features incorporated into the new OS. Whether or not they can do this without making a complete break from previous OS flavors and alienating their remaining developers is another matter.

...if PPC did not take over Palm two years ago, I don't think it's gonna be easier now no matter what they come up with.

I agree that Palm still holds a lot of the cards now. I expected Palm to have been taken over two years ago, but they can thank Sony, optimistic supporters and several hundred thousand Palm V buyers for their cash stores and continued presence. In previous years the company was unfocused, wasting time and resources on useless acquisitions and questionable development projects. Now they claim to be finally concentrating on the four cornerstones of Palm: Palm OS/Business/PDAs/Palm-phones. They have finally dumped much of the in-house bloat and can efficiently outsource whatever they need. (Had they simply hired all of HandEra's engineers the OS could actually have been advanced by now.)

And if Palm can generate a buzz about their new PDA-phones, this could become the coup de grace for PPC. They need to make Palm-phones the gadget to own this year and make them available as inexpensively as possible. Size issues will always mean that the market for PDAs is relatively limited, but even Grandma has to have a cellphone.

But I still wouldn't bet against Microsoft ultimately getting their act together if Palm keeps fumbling.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/21/2003 3:52:27 AM #
Satan:

1. PalmOS is already the enterprise standard, enjoying around 85% of the business market. Couple this with its excellent integration with MS desktop apps and poof-- there goes your lever.

Add a change or two to Microsoft's desktop apps to optimize integration with PocketPC, couple this with further subsidies of PPC hardware and "poof" - here's the lever again. But now it's twice as big and dripping with blood.

2. Bringing a device to market with the lowest possible pricepoint may be the best approach among consumers, but enterprise buyers are more concerned with TCO.

Do you believe in TCO studies? How about the easter bunny?

3. Dude, Dell already sells PalmOS devices (from multiple licensees, in fact). So where's the hassle? You can go straight to their oder site and say "I'll take 2000 Clie's and a side of XP servers!" and they won;t even bat an eye. However, try putting an IBM order in for 12 Linux servers and a dozen iPaq's and you'll be out of luck.

Duuude, the fact that Dell is actually selling PPC gives the platform credibility. Secondly, look at the hardware you get and the price it sells for. Can you add a CF 802.11b card or any other industry-standard hardware to that CLIE? Can you use those CLIE add-ons in your company notebook?

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
naturefreak85 @ 6/21/2003 6:52:23 PM #
true palm has less hardware capabilities, but when you are looking for software compatibility PALM is the way to go if you want to sync with MAC with a PPC you have to pay at least 70 bucks palms can do it out of the box (not including clie's which need missingsync)

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
macshimidh @ 6/22/2003 8:48:06 PM #
"Add a change or two to Microsoft's desktop apps to optimize integration with PocketPC, couple this with further subsidies of PPC hardware and "poof" - here's the lever again. But now it's twice as big and dripping with blood."

I've been hearing this arguement for at least four years now. If this would be so easily accompliashed, I wonder why MS hasn't doen it yet.


"Do you believe in TCO studies? How about the easter bunny?"

Sure, I believe in TCO studies. Then again, I have the advantage of actually doing handheld support and consulting for a living, so I know from first-hand experience that they are valid.


"Duuude, the fact that Dell is actually selling PPC gives the platform credibility. Secondly, look at the hardware you get and the price it sells for. Can you add a CF 802.11b card or any other industry-standard hardware to that CLIE? Can you use those CLIE add-ons in your company notebook?"

MS will be thrilled to hear that they need support from Dell to give their handheld platform credibility. As for 802.11 support, Dell sells PalmOS devices with intigrated 802.11, as well as PalmOS devices to which 802.11 CF cards can be added. Fairly soon, we'll have 802.11 in SDIO form for both platforms.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/23/2003 2:48:32 PM #
"Add a change or two to Microsoft's desktop apps to optimize integration with PocketPC, couple this with further subsidies of PPC hardware and "poof" - here's the lever again. But now it's twice as big and dripping with blood."

I've been hearing this arguement for at least four years now. If this would be so easily accompliashed, I wonder why MS hasn't doen it yet.


"Do you believe in TCO studies? How about the easter bunny?"

Sure, I believe in TCO studies. Then again, I have the advantage of actually doing handheld support and consulting for a living, so I know from first-hand experience that they are valid.


"Duuude, the fact that Dell is actually selling PPC gives the platform credibility. Secondly, look at the hardware you get and the price it sells for. Can you add a CF 802.11b card or any other industry-standard hardware to that CLIE? Can you use those CLIE add-ons in your company notebook?"

MS will be thrilled to hear that they need support from Dell to give their handheld platform credibility. As for 802.11 support, Dell sells PalmOS devices with intigrated 802.11, as well as PalmOS devices to which 802.11 CF cards can be added. Fairly soon, we'll have 802.11 in SDIO form for both platforms.

Microsoft has been under the US Justice Department's microscope for the past few years because of their business practices. They even kept Apple alive partly to deflect attention (and partly for Office sales). They likely have been hesitant to do anything obvious (like breaking Palm/Office compatibility) that could cause more antitrust hassles.

Since you believe in TCO studies, I won't tell you that Santa Claus isn't real.

Microsoft doesn't care what/who they need to give the PPC platform credibility as long as they win in the end. Dell - and soon Gateway - gives them a bigger lever.
What PalmOS devices that accept CF 802.11b cards is Dell selling and how much do they cost?

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/23/2003 3:06:27 PM #
And if Palm can generate a buzz about their new PDA-phones, this could become the coup de grace for PPC. They need to make Palm-phones the gadget to own this year and make them available as inexpensively as possible. Size issues will always mean that the market for PDAs is relatively limited, but even Grandma has to have a cellphone.

Once again, Palm has the opportunity to undermine Microsoft before Microsoft gets the chance to revise their product to the point that it's competitive. But if Palm and its partners don't subsidize these phones heavily, they're leaving the door open for Microsoft (again) and shouldn't be surprised to see themselves getting squashed in a couple years.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
Satan @ 6/23/2003 3:22:05 PM #
Maybe some palm manufacturer will wake up and give us a palm with sd and cf with 64megs of ran ,400mhz cpu and 320x480 screen for 4-500 :
*ill keep dreaming*

Why don't you just get the new HandEra 550?

Wait a minute - Sony/Palm killed off HandEra last month. But can I interest you in 4 or 5 Zires for the same price? Just link the screens together using the Video Out connectors and run the MultiMonitor™ and Rainbow CPU™ hacks.

RE: Palm needed to to have focused on business 2 years ago
scstraus2 @ 9/18/2003 12:19:07 PM #
I suppose he has now choice but to buy the tapwave zodiac - dual sd slots, 320x480, 128megs ram, 200mhz processor, 8meg ATI infineon graphics processor. $399.

Anohter Email Client?

bcombee @ 6/19/2003 2:45:51 PM #
I don't understand why PalmSource needs to sponsor another email client on the platform. While diversity is good, why didn't they go with an existing company with a strong product. SnapperMail is an obvious choice (having just won their PoweredUp Award), but there's also VersaMail, Iambic Mail, Eudora for Palm OS, TreoMail, Aileron, and a bunch of others.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: Anohter Email Client?
potatoho @ 6/19/2003 4:01:13 PM #
I hope they release the sources like the other Palm Mail clients. I maintain my own version of Palm Mail which I enhance and modernize for keyboard and wireless use. I wouldn't mind patching this new Visto client, but I'm thinking they aren't going to release the sources.


RE: Another Email Client?
robman @ 6/19/2003 5:10:08 PM #
Has anybody actually been able to download the Visto client and give it a whirl? I don't happen to own one of the listed devices, but I'd love to see some screenshots (Editors, can you do this?)

At least that might explain something...

Palm Researcher at the University of Texas at Austin
http://www.edb.utexas.edu/petrosino/pda

RE: Anohter Email Client?
PDA Guy @ 6/19/2003 5:48:16 PM #
I gotta agree with Ben here, getting behind a new client when there are already existing clients that have to be close to what the end result is seems like a waste of time and resources to me. Especially in a company that should be concentrating on the OS and not application software (IMO).
RE: Anohter Email Client?
PFloyd @ 6/20/2003 12:31:30 AM #
Didn't Palm buy Versamail? I thought that was the way they'd go for the future.

RE: Anohter Email Client?
dulinor @ 6/20/2003 1:04:18 AM #
VistoMail is the same thing (and same pricing) as TreoMail only it runs on any Palm device with a network connection. I switched from a Treo to a TT w/ net over Bluetooth and it's worked fine for me from day 1.

This could actually be pretty good.

RE: Anohter Email Client?
TooMuch @ 6/21/2003 10:35:04 PM #
I'm a TW user who LOVES Visto! Works flawlessly with Exchange server at the office. We have been using 5 TW's on this system since March 29. The Visto people have a very stable product.

With that said, they have not released their attachments viewer support yet. You can forwad the attachments but cannot view and save them to your Palm.

I will get a screen shot up for you soon.

RE: Anohter Email Client?
new505user @ 6/22/2003 12:24:22 AM #
Is the version you use with exhange have PUSH email capability? That to me is key. It says in the press release that the OS6 client will have push capability yet the one in the CNET video is clearly PUll email. Also, will the attachment viewer allow you to view and modify NATIVE docs?

RE: Anohter Email Client?
TooMuch @ 6/22/2003 2:44:11 PM #
The current version of Visto is not "push". You must schedule "send/receive" (up to every 15 minutes) or manually command it.

Here is a screen shot for the curious - http://discussion.brighthand.com/palmhandhelds/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36991



What about RIM?????

hoodoo @ 6/19/2003 3:38:25 PM #
PalmSource licensed the RIM technology in May. I don't understand, will the RIM push e-mail drive the visto program? Why would they bother licensing RIM otherwise?

http://www.rim.com/news/press/pr-06_05_2003-02.shtml


Visto

Galley_SimRacer @ 6/20/2003 12:39:57 AM #
I used to use Vista's web mail. It was excellent.

--
"Life is what you experience between racing games"
Galley
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