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Comments on: Opinion: Why I Won't Be Buying a Pocket PC

Long-time PIC contributor Mike Cane emerges from his hermitage to once again offer himself up as a human target for the PDA zealots. This time he explains why, after lusting for Pocket PC, he finally decided to stick with the PalmOS platform after all.
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Enjoyed reading your thoughts.

amin @ 7/24/2003 8:16:45 PM #
Palm OS is more dependable, but I think PPC may be more fun. I'm sticking with Palm for now. Love my Tungsten|C! Wish there was a Palm-branded option with BT and 320x480 screen in an m515 form!

e740 and T|T
RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
Sweetlu @ 7/24/2003 10:48:26 PM #
Ditto.

Improvements for T3. Kill the slider. Use T|C buttons, stereo output, and price it below $400. Forget about the camera lens. It will blow away every except for the Zire 71.

___________________________________
Casio B.O.S.S --> M100 --> vX --> M505

Yankees, Steinbrenner,...... I will never turn to the dark side.

RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
Honey @ 7/25/2003 2:51:25 AM #
I fully consent, too!

I can only warn people that have been using PalmOS (and eventually Psion before) to go and buy a Pocket PC. I did it (Dell Axim 5) and the only consequence is that I spent a huge amount of money for software that all can't one moment compete to my palm software.

I think I will sell my Axim as soon as possible and go back to Palm, even if it has to be a Sony Clie (actually, I never wanted to buy a Sony because of this ... Memory Stick, but for me color and in the first place the virtual graffiti are crucial). I don't have it yet, but I can't wait to sell my Pocket PC and to do real work on my palm again! I'll keep my Handera too, so for the cases when weight is of importance, I think I can do without multimedia and use my greyscale (virtual graffiti field) Handera.

I think it's really true: Palm was developed and constructed for mobile users and Pocket PC is a meagre copy of a desktop version, and this is to be experienced with almost any software I have tried. A PPC is not much more than a (really expensive) toy and the software (at least the lot I tried and I tried a lot) is nice to look at, but not nearly as fuctional as Palm Software.

I was really disappointed by Pocket PC and I'll won't look back for a minute (after my Axim is sold!).


Former Psion-User

RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
heavyduty @ 7/25/2003 3:29:10 AM #
I owned the Axim Advanced (my first and only PPC), but sold it after two months and I haven't looked back ever since.
RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
icarus @ 7/25/2003 6:33:56 AM #
I totally agree.

This 320x480 (or why not even getting it up to 640x480?) kind of MiniTablet, with BT and NO slider, NO keyboard, No other gimmicks is exactly what I am waiting for too.


presently using T|T - waiting for 320x480 VG Design with Bluetooth (No clam-shell, no keyboard)

RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
Haber @ 7/25/2003 7:46:59 AM #
In my experience, Palm OS 4.1 has not been as dependable as I'd have expected. Palm OS 5.x may be more reliable (anyone have info on this?), but Palm still ships units with Palm OS 4.x. While it doesn't crash on a daily basis, it crashes at least once a month, enough times for me to worry that the system is not dependable. And as it doesn't have a file system, I'm constantly worrying that some detritus is taking up precious memory, or that some file clutter is slowing down the system.

RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
trophyofgrace @ 7/25/2003 9:13:51 AM #
Honey, I'd be willing to buy your PPC. Let's say, oh, $.50? Seriously, email me. I know of someone who wants one (don't ask me why)...

---
Tyler Puckett
Palm m505 and m125.
64MB SanDisk SD Card
Reliability
dtuttle @ 7/25/2003 11:22:05 AM #
I have a T|T, with a Palm V upgraded to OS 4 before that. I've found OS 5 to be _much_ more stable that 3 or 4. I'm constantly experimenting with new apps, and I develop on the Palm. However, the T|T has required a hard reset maybe once since I bought it.

RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
dhibbitts @ 7/25/2003 1:30:25 PM #
I agree with your comment regarding form factor, almost. The m505 and m515 are close but still are too thick. Palm had it right with the Vx form factor. My dream is for Palm to one day release a device with the specs of the T3 in a Vx form (with the universal connector, of course). To make my point, hold a Vx in your right hand and any other PDA in the other. The feel of the Vx is just right.


--
Daniel Hibbitts
Ann Arbor Palm OS Developers Group
Ann Arbor Palm OS Users Group
http://www.a2pug.org/

RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
twalk @ 7/25/2003 2:10:22 PM #
"In my experience, Palm OS 4.1 has not been as dependable as I'd have expected. Palm OS 5.x may be more reliable (anyone have info on this?), but Palm still ships units with Palm OS 4.x. While it doesn't crash on a daily basis, it crashes at least once a month, enough times for me to worry that the system is not dependable."

In my experience, it's not the OS that crashes, it's the programs. PalmOS doesn't have any protection from a crashing program crashing the entire system.

(This is something that PalmOS 6 is suppose to fix.)


RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
cypher76 @ 7/25/2003 4:28:00 PM #
dhibbitts wrote:
"To make my point, hold a Vx in your right hand and any other PDA in the other. The feel of the Vx is just right."

The Vx form factor is definitely not "just right". I have pretty normal-sized hands, and the V-series is too wide for a normal hand. The device I upgraded to after my Palm V was a Sony S320, and the smaller width coupled with the additional depth (about what a Palm V would be with the leather flip-cover) made it much more comfortable to hold than a Palm V.

RE: Enjoyed reading your thoughts.
Altema @ 7/27/2003 10:18:13 AM #
"The Vx form factor is definitely not "just right". I have pretty normal-sized hands, and the V-series is too wide for a normal hand."

Have to agree with you there... the V and M5xx series is the best form factor for pockets, but a little too wide for the hand. Loved my M515, but the T|T is more comfortable to hold.

Testing 1.. 2.. 3..

abosco @ 7/24/2003 8:47:28 PM #
Testing.. nitro boosters, check. 90 WPM, check. Constant eye movement, check. Auto-ska recognition software, installed. ALL SYSTEMS FULL SPEED AHEAD.

I've got your back, bro. Welcome back. I only had to make fun of you, what, thirteen times? ;)

-Bosco

RE: Testing 1.. 2.. 3..
Lucky Bob @ 7/24/2003 10:38:24 PM #
I can't wait to see ska's comments...

(Why do some people say you can kill two birds with one stone when it's hard enough killing one bird with two stones?)
RE: Testing 1.. 2.. 3..
AzureGuy @ 7/25/2003 1:16:04 AM #
Does anyone know where you can find some sort of Ska-type anti-pest spray? I'm pretty sure I had some around here somewhere......

:)

------
BLUE PUNCH BUGGY!!!!!

RE: Testing 1.. 2.. 3..
Lucky Bob @ 7/25/2003 11:44:56 AM #
Lol :)

(Why do some people say you can kill two birds with one stone when it's hard enough killing one bird with two stones?)

OS Love

kezza @ 7/24/2003 8:48:38 PM #
"Now show me someone having a similar experience with Windows 3.0"

Actually, I can. We pried my mother's Apple IIe out of her hands somewhere around 1995. We replaced it with a beige windows box, running 3.0. She still uses it. She will probably continue to use it until we pry it out of her cold, dead hands. She loves it, possibly more than the Apple IIe. It does exactly what she wants, and she never has to fight with it about anything.

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com

RE: OS Love
Altema @ 7/24/2003 11:58:01 PM #
The most difficult OS for me to put to rest was Apple's SOS, which was upgraded to BOS in December of 1994... a full decade after Apple put the Apple /// to a premature death. We had it from 1987 to 1999 and never lost files for 12 years. It's still in a special travel case inside a metal cabinet for safe keeping. The family has started bugging me to bring it back out again.

RE: OS Love
AzureGuy @ 7/25/2003 1:17:40 AM #
My Japanese teacher in High School had a classic apple (the monitor built-in kind) with a monochrome screen and all original accessories including printer... He used that for our grades and everything he needed to type up, etc..... We kept on making fun of him for it, but now that I think about it, why replace it if it does everything you need?

------
BLUE PUNCH BUGGY!!!!!
RE: OS Love
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 1:09:02 PM #
>>>Now show me someone having a similar experience with Windows 3.0"

>>>Actually, I can. We pried my mother's Apple IIe out of her hands somewhere around 1995. We replaced it with a beige windows box, running 3.0.

I'm not touching this at all. You expect me to comment on your *mother*?!


RE: OS Love
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 9:33:55 AM #
Well, I will ask a question to clarify things: You are sure it is Win 3 point OH and not Win 3 point ONE?

RE: OS Love
tthiel @ 7/27/2003 8:38:20 PM #
Your mom is an idiot.

RE: OS Love
helf @ 7/27/2003 10:29:05 PM #
um. No his mom isnt. Older people use what they understand how to use. They dont like change much. Least my grandparents dont. And if it works and does what she wants then why upgrade? Contrary to what companies want you to believe ,you dont always need the cutting edge tech.

RE: OS Love
mikecane @ 7/28/2003 6:49:55 PM #
>>> Your mom is an idiot.

tthiel, that was disgusting.

240x320?

s_n_m @ 7/24/2003 9:03:21 PM #
Why would you possibly want a low res screen over a high res one? 320^2 is standard and looks way better than any PPC screens.

_____________________________________________
*S*S*D*D*
RE: 240x320?
abosco @ 7/24/2003 9:06:27 PM #
I agree, but my alternative suggestion isn't 240x320, but 320x480. 320x320 still turns out to be too small. I'm sure he'll mention something about White Castle hamburger meat. The problem with QVGA in a 4" screen is that the grid is so visible it's disturbing. 320x480 combines the high resolution of the 320x320 screen with the size of the 240x320 screen. No doubt this is the best screen when it comes to visibility, as there are no grids, and small fonts are still readable, unlike 640x480 in the same size.

How come no mention of the trademarked "handgasm" along with the e550g?

-Bosco

RE: 240x320?
hotpaw4 @ 7/24/2003 10:44:20 PM #
someone wrote:
>Why would you possibly want a low res screen over a high res one?

A low-res display consumes far less power, and costs less also. Thus the low-res option allows a PalmOS solution provider to offer lower cost models with excellent battery life. Very important in the entry-level segments of the market.

RE: 240x320?
macshimidh @ 7/25/2003 12:02:25 AM #
There's another factor in PPC's screen implementation which I seldom see discussed. From my experience of trying to learn to like a Dell Axim for a month, one of my greatest disappoinytments was the poor utilization of the extra screen space.

The majority of the software I tried put a non-collapsible menu bar above the application window, and often added a second menu bar at the bottom of the screen. Net result-- comparing the device side-by-side with a Palm, it provided a scant few extra millimeters of display for the actual program contents. In text-intensive apps such as ebook readers and word processors, the higher resolution of the square Palm screen would often match or exceed the ammount of info the rectangular screen PPC could display.

This problem is more an issue with PPC developers and does not represent an inherent limitation in in the PPC OS, and there certainly were a few apps which did take advantage of the full screen. However, for around 85% of the 120+ apps I tried, the extra screen length was a wash.

RE: 240x320?
macshimidh @ 7/25/2003 10:01:48 AM #
You're missing the point-- I wasn;t talking about the text input area, but rather the menu bars that so many PPC developers insist on including which eat up the extra screen space. Coupled with a lower res. QVGA display, it's a bit of a let-down transitioning form a high-res (320x320) PalmOS device. One of the things I was looking forward to was much more info displayed on a single screen, and for the many programs, it just didn't pan out.

RE: 240x320?
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 2:01:54 PM #
What's interesting is just how amazingly *tiny* controls can be on that 320x480 screen. Compare the "ControlBar" beneath Soft Graffiti area with, say, the Formatting Bar of Pocket Word. Sony squeezes more in a smaller area.

Alas, Sony also makes some on-screen controls *too* small. Hawkins & Team made some controls intentionally large in their designs so you could hit them with a thumb or fingernail. Sony CLIE controls -- especially in CLIE Camera -- really require the stylus point.

RE: 240x320?
Pony99CA @ 7/30/2003 3:03:47 AM #
s_n_m wrote:


Why would you possibly want a low res screen over a high res one? 320^2 is standard and looks way better than any PPC screens.


What's ironic is that screen resolution was one of the issues the Pocket PC camp used against the Palm camp back when Palm was stuck at 160x160. However, people still used Palm devices. Why was that? Because they liked other things about the Palm OS enough to overlook the screen resolution.

The 240x320 resolution limit is one of the current frustrations about the Pocket PC. Maybe Pocket PC users are doing the same thing now that Palm users did in the past.

By the way, Windows CE devices aren't limited to 240x320; for example, the Samsung Nexio allows 800x480. Of course, it's not the size of a Palm or Pocket PC, either.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

Good

jaimemv @ 7/24/2003 9:20:58 PM #
I agree with you, very good coment.

well- rounded

babsknupp @ 7/24/2003 9:58:43 PM #
Well-rounded article. I own PDA's from both platforms, but definitely prefer Palm OS, and my Tungsten C is my primary PDA that I keep all my appointments in. I definitely like the scheduler functions way better in Palm. PPC has some interesting areas, and yes, Palm OS has its moments of frustration, but I personally find it a preferable platform.

RE: well- rounded
Gremmie @ 7/30/2003 3:51:26 PM #
It was good, well rounded and thought-out. I prefer Pocket PC for one reason which is hard to dispute, multi-tasking, I spend too much time looking at meeting notes, a calender, and a contact all at once, but, PalmOS 6 will definatly get consideration.

agreed all around

kisrael @ 7/24/2003 10:08:17 PM #
That was a good essay, and not afraid of admitting that PalmOS has some pretty bad quirks. Clipboard limit and 4K memos are both just retarded. But it is still the most comfortable and reliable OS. The comparison to old Mac stuff is very apt.

I guess I'm not the only one

Spydermn @ 7/24/2003 10:39:18 PM #
Your article makes me feel better, I just sold my Dell Axim because the company I work for has given me a Palm M505. I basically used the Palm for work & the Dell for fun. Hoping they will let me ebay the 505 & pitch in a little and buy the Tungsten.

Well.....

vesther @ 7/24/2003 11:00:35 PM #
....a Palm Powered Handheld is the way to go because of its stability, dependability, and ease of use. With the right software installed....you can actually use Word and Excel (plus PowerPoint) Documents much better than a Windows Mobile PDA.

I'm glad that you're going to stick with a Palm-Powered Handheld. If there's a good Palm-Powered Handheld for you, think about the Zire 71, or better yet, the Tungsten T2.

Established Consumer Palm Handheld Possessor since 2002

RE: Well.....
Altema @ 7/25/2003 12:09:10 AM #
Mike already has his mind set on the T3.

RE: Well.....
73939133 @ 7/25/2003 12:41:01 AM #
a Palm Powered Handheld is the way to go because of its stability, dependability, and ease of use.

My PalmOS 5 handheld crashes with regularity, usually when using Bluetooth or WiFi; and when it crashes, the whole handheld reboots. It's just like the old DOS days.

As for ease of use, that's a mixed bag: the basic PDA applications on Palm are still very good, and there are some really nice third party apps out there, but just about everything else has become a big mess.

I have been using Palm since the beginning, and I am not going to switch to PocketPC. But, frankly, I think PalmOS is an embarrassment as an operating system.

RE: Well.....
AzureGuy @ 7/25/2003 1:23:02 AM #
Personally, I have the ability to crash just about anything on a regular basis. Except for my old Palm IIIxe... Then I fried it in a freak motherboard destroying accident... Still works to this day, even after being toasted nicely!

Got an m125... I hated that thing, and still won't recommend it even for a bargain model. Reminded me of running Windows ME. CRASH, CRASH, CRASH, CRASH, BUG, CRASH.

Tungsten|T isn't that bad unless you're trying to surf the net over bluetooth, then I still have plenty of headaches (it locks up quite nicely often). But otherwise, OS 5 is stable for me. Since I was able to fix my digitizer issue (surgery is FUN) I haven't had any major problems, and everything works fine :) I was gonna get rid of my T|T, but now that it works, I'm gonna hold out for a WiFi SD card.

As for blaming the OS, and calling it an embarrassment. I wouldn't say that. The IMPLEMENTATION has issues (PalmSG in particular) and that is where the embarrassment should reside. My Windows XP machine suffers from a consistant (but appears to have something to do with Windows XP updating it's network printer drivers from the machine with the printer installed) crash of Winlogon.exe which takes explorer.exe down with it (sympathetic crash).

In this instance, I'm more likely to blame user error (I'm the person who set up the entire network, and installed windows on each machine, but only mine is maintained properly, so I'm the one to blame).

And you want to talk about embarrassing OSes? Windows ME is GARBAGE. PocketPC 2002 is CRUD, we only recently discovered to get my boss's WiFi to work properly, you change the settings in the network dialog, then shut off the unit, then when you turn it back on it works... WHERE'S THE LOGIC IN THAT??? It isn't even EASY to configure the network stuff.... Palm OS is SO MUCH more easy, it's right up there with my standard, which is Windows XP/2000.

------
BLUE PUNCH BUGGY!!!!!

RE: Well.....
Lucky Bob @ 7/25/2003 11:51:39 AM #
Yeah, a couple years ago, our school bought a bunch of el cheapo Gateway laptops and WiFi PC cards to create a mobile computer lab. The laptops originally came with Windows ME on them. A short time later, however, Windows ME was wiped off and Windows 98 was put on them, because of the increased Network support.

(Why do some people say you can kill two birds with one stone when it's hard enough killing one bird with two stones?)
RE: Well.....
jamesgood72 @ 7/25/2003 1:29:45 PM #
My Sony TG-50 was very stable. As stable as PalmOS4 was, at least. It was stolen the other day, so hopefully it's still being stable for the theiving b'stard who took it from my office. If someone is offered a cheap TG-50 in the Miami area, drop me a note, please!

-James.

RE: Well.....
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 2:05:47 PM #
Advice: Take the weekend to visit flea markets. It's amazing how many PDAs show up at them -- with *nothing* else. No cradle, no CD-ROMs, no manuals, no cables, no packaging. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

RE: Well.....
jamesgood72 @ 7/25/2003 2:47:28 PM #
hehe, I was thinking that Mike. The low-life scum probably has about 3 days of battery life available now. What's he going to do after that. Throw it away, or as you say, try and ditch it elsewhere.

I put it on www.itsbeenstolen.com, for what it's worth... Search for TG-50!

-James.

RE: Well.....
helf @ 7/25/2003 5:34:09 PM #
chromaticb @ 7/25/2003 9:06:25 AM

OS 5.0 stable? And I am Elvis.
----

Hi elvis!

RE: Well.....
jamesgood72 @ 7/25/2003 7:11:28 PM #
Helf, what do you find unstable about OS5? I use many apps on my TG-50, and almost never have a reset happen. Netfront has been just about the only thing I can remember to cause that. I use the PIM apps all the time, Planetarium, Cliemail, CLiePaint, Tealauto, an FTP app, a few games etc. Some of my own software too.

Just interested...

-James.

RE: Well.....
helf @ 7/25/2003 10:08:57 PM #
You got me wrong. He said if os5 was stable he's elvis.. Sure itll crash but thats not really teh OS's fault. Most of the time its 3rd party fault. I don't have an os5 palm (yet anyways), but several friends of mine do and they have no problems with them at all.

RE: Well.....
jamesgood72 @ 7/26/2003 12:32:13 AM #
Ah, sorry, I missed the King reference!

RE: Well.....
Hotoru @ 7/26/2003 1:22:09 AM #
AzureGuy, what surgery did you do to fix your T|T digitizer? Mine has been acting up recently. I have to reset the digitizer every few days. The software patch from palm did not help

Thanks,
Hotoru

RE: Well.....
TooMuch @ 7/26/2003 10:44:47 AM #
"My PalmOS 5 handheld crashes with regularity, usually when using Bluetooth or WiFi; and when it crashes, the whole handheld reboots. It's just like the old DOS days..."

"Seminar" comments? ;)

RE: Well.....
mj6798 @ 7/26/2003 12:53:12 PM #
You got me wrong. He said if os5 was stable he's elvis.. Sure itll crash but thats not really teh OS's fault. Most of the time its 3rd party fault.

Yes, it often is. The problem is not that the applications crash (applications crash anywhere), the problem is that they take the entire handheld with them. And that is clearly the fault of the OS.

I don't have an os5 palm (yet anyways), but several friends of mine do and they have no problems with them at all.

Well, how nice for them. The traditional Palm applications don't cause this to happen. I suspect it is actually related to running out of memory, and to some features of the networking APIs. Again, those are the operating system's fault.

It's not that it is completely unusable (otherwise, I'd just toss out the thing). But it really demonstrates what a poor job Palm is doing with the operating system. In 2003, an operating system just shouldn't have those kinds of problems.


Why I Won't Be Buying a Pocket PC

bquin @ 7/25/2003 12:14:25 AM #
As a former user of the HP41CX, HP48 and HP200 Palmtop, I know exactly what you mean about trust and affection. That's probably why I will stay with the Palm OS as long as it is around. Every once in a while I think forlornly about what the pda world would be like if HP had gone with Palm instead of PocketPC...

I would suggest 2 more points to your very provocative position:

4) The Palm Desktop is the best PIM I have ever used. Even if I didn't use the Palm I would keep using the Desktop application. It is so much easier and user friendly than Outlook...

5) The hundreds of freeware and software applications are terrific. I use a calculator called "RPN" and an astronomy program called "Planetarium." I know of nothing comparable in PocketPC.

Bquin
...laughing at a world too absurd to take seriously...

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Pocket PC
jasonc @ 7/25/2003 10:05:54 AM #
I agree with you. A couple of years ago, Palm fans were right to claim that there wasn't much software for the Pocket PC. Now a days, however, you just can't use that argument. There are literally thousands of Pocket PC applications both freeware and commercial.

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Pocket PC
jasonc @ 7/25/2003 10:12:20 AM #
Of course I meant to say, "I don't agree with you."

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Pocket PC
Fernando @ 7/25/2003 3:14:40 PM #
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was referring more towards the quality of the programs released than the quantity.
RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Pocket PC
WhtShadow @ 7/25/2003 3:58:29 PM #
If you liked the HP 41C series of calculators, check out P41CV (By Eric Smith)for the Palm OS Looks and acts just like the HP. It is programmable, and can even use ROM programs

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Pocket PC
amflores @ 7/29/2003 4:24:39 PM #
Thanks for the tip, WhtShadow!
My father gave me his then old HP41CV (that was 1989) just when I get into college and I loved it! It even had the magnetic card reader -with no cards, but a kind soul in my calculus class who had a 41CX give me some-. Ive been missing it since someone stole it, and now it turns back into my palm!

Now if I only found those manuals.....

Here's my theory:

ptc @ 7/25/2003 12:16:16 AM #
The Palm seems to have the edge as an organizer. This is Palm's supreme strength. People get hooked on the organizer function, and the Palm becomes an itegrated part of their daily life. Then they branch out and try some other programs. Since the organizer function is rock solid, the user is able to forgive the lack of the most advanced multimedia, whiz-bang features.

From my experience, PPC users don't get their PDA's because they want an organizer. They want a mini Windows PC. A cool gadget. The PPC people I know don't really use the organizer capabilities of the PPC, so they don't use it every day. As a result, it really doesn't become an integral part of their lives. Then they have a sync issue or some other problem, and are less likely to fix it b/c they don't really need their PPC to make it through the day. Bottom line: All PPC owners I know rarely use their devices. After the cool factor wears off, or some problem develops, the PPC ends up in a drawer. Everyone I know with a Palm uses it every single day.


_________
Paul C.

RE: Here's my theory:
jasonc @ 7/25/2003 10:14:08 AM #
I guess you just need to get out there and meet some new people... I use my Pocket PC every day for several hours a day to manage everything in my life just as I did with my Palm. Also, your argument about synching just doesn't hold up any more. Each time I drop my PPC in the cradle it syncs just fine.. and I don't even have to press a button go get it to sync! :)

RE: Here's my theory:
Lucky Bob @ 7/25/2003 11:55:52 AM #
I'm not much of a fan of ActiveStink though...transfers and connections have sometimes not been a pleasure...

(Why do some people say you can kill two birds with one stone when it's hard enough killing one bird with two stones?)
RE: Here's my theory:
Konstantin @ 7/25/2003 4:49:23 PM #
Pressing the button in the craddle is way faster than point clicking anything. So you have one ActiveStick per craddle mounting. If you need to sync again you what? lift it and sit it on the craddle again?
Dont bother with the HotSync button,its instantaneous and it rulez!

RE: Here's my theory:
cbulock @ 7/25/2003 6:47:31 PM #
You don't press any buttons with ActiveSync. You just stick the device in the cradle, and it syncs. And it constantly stays in sync as long as it's in the cradle. It's always running, unlike Hotsync. So, no, you don't need to remove the device and reinsert it.

________________
-Cameron
http://nx.cbulock.com
RE: Here's my theory:
Konstantin @ 7/25/2003 8:57:33 PM #
Figures. Activestink has to tie up both computers, yeah it is windows after all.

RE: Here's my theory:
Pony99CA @ 7/26/2003 2:10:30 AM #
You complain that ActiveSync makes you do more work than HotSync, then, after someone points out that it's actually less work, you find something bad to say about that, too. Figures.

Why not just say, "Cool, I wish HotSync had that option"? Oh, yes, it is an option in ActiveSync; you don't have to have continuous syncing. But I suppose you'll find something wrong with that, too.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.garlic.com

RE: PPC and syncing
Cheetah @ 7/27/2003 12:34:08 AM #
I've had two high end PPCs now (1 Compaq and 1 HP) and I've had major sync problems with both. I've spent many hours trying to figure them out, and I work with tech alot (I'm in a IT dept).

Also, I don't want my PDA to sync everytime I put it in the cradle...I want to have better control over when I want to sync.

I also don't like the OS patches on PPC, but that's another story.

RE: Here's my theory:
Altema @ 7/27/2003 10:30:43 AM #
An interesting side effect of Activesync is keeping the device on all the time... even if there is no power! I have picked up my PPC more than once, asuming it was synced, charged, and ready to go, only to find the low battery warning on the screen. The newer versions of Activesync seemed to work much better, and I could even do a PPC and Palm sync at the same time. Of course, in addition to the power problem, Activesync would screw up my email by not being able to choose the correct profile, then lock you out of your email until you physically yanked the thing out of the cradle.

both are absolutely awful

73939133 @ 7/25/2003 12:34:08 AM #
For me, the only reason for using a Palm and not using PocketPC is that I don't use Windows. If I had given in to Microsoft on the desktop, I'd probably just buy a PocketPC.

Technically, while I think PocketPC is pretty bad, PalmOS manages to be even worse in just about every respect. The only thing that PalmOS does somewhat better than PocketPC is the calendaring and address applications.

I think unless Palm really manages to do a great job on PalmOS 6, they are history. But Microsoft doesn't win this market by default: a product as bad as PocketPC is very susceptible to competition from Linux and Symbian.

Altogether, I find the state of the handheld market pretty depressing: between the two major players, we have a choice between really bad and worse.

RE: both are absolutely awful
abosco @ 7/25/2003 12:46:48 AM #
Huh? I find lots of things annoying and could be improved in Palm OS, but I find even MORE when using PPC. You are seriously saying Palm OS is worse in every aspect besides a calendar? My God..

The things I hate about Palm OS are the lack of a file system, lack of multitasking, and some dumb limits like the clipboard. The things I like about Palm OS that I can't get in PPC is flexibility. You can't find a thumbboard on a PPC. Oh wait, yes you can, it's the monster Hitachi. Also, there are various screen resolution options. While this may also be a weakness, 320x480 is just plain awesome.

Above, you mention your OS 5 device crashes with regularity. My old m105 crashed more often than my NX80v. You also say you have problems with wireless connectivity. I'm sorry, but I get none of this with Wifi. It's been working like a dream so far, and I don't even need to knock on wood. And not liking the OS because it's not advanced enough to have one thing crash and have it reboot?? This was barely implemented in WINDOWS XP!! You're blaming Palm for not doing it? Are you insane??

Come on, man. I agree it's a choice between the lesser of two evils, but you make it sound like it's a choice between Satan and Lucifer. The end results of these products are still very different, IMO.

-Bosco

RE: both are absolutely awful
gavinfabl @ 7/25/2003 1:25:46 AM #
I have a Tungsten T. I recently looked at a PPC and the hardware specs are very impressive. The new machines are getting slimmer and sexier. But the BIG BUT for me was software. Pocket PC seems to have a major lack of software.

I have 200 programs for my TT but I could not get that amount on a Pocket PC or the variety. My TT can do so much it makes a Pocket PC ancient.

However, OS5 is buggy. You can get software conflicts etc...That is why I will buy the TT2 since the bugs are removed and the memory is at a respectable level. Enough for my needs.



Zlauncher 3.01, Tungsten T

RE: both are absolutely awful
AzureGuy @ 7/25/2003 1:38:56 AM #
I've said it before, and I have to say it again.

The problems are in IMPLEMENTATION!!!

Abosco doesn't have problems because Sony has WORKED OUT the problems before they sent the product to market.

You can't say that for the Tungsten T (or as I've complained even the m125).

The problem is the same people-PalmSG.

So quit blaming the OS for implementation problems

------
BLUE PUNCH BUGGY!!!!!

RE: both are absolutely awful
hotpaw4 @ 7/25/2003 2:15:32 AM #
Almost all digital computing devices are absolutely awful. One wrong punctuation mark or button press, and these devices are likely to do the absolute opposite of what you want, like deleting an entire report you just spent hours writing. They can rarely do anything in an intuitively obvious manner. They crash and catch viruses. They can't understand simple spoken or written commands which a 9 year old child would have no problems following. And before you know it, the device you bought a just a few years ago is now considered an antique museum piece by the neighborhood teenagers.

They are all awful... However some are more awful than others.

That said:
> The only thing that PalmOS does somewhat better than PocketPC is the calendaring and address applications.

Like any primative tool (wooden wheel, stone arrowhead), in the right circumstances, they can still sometimes manage to be more useful than nothing at all. A lot of people prefer an electronic organizer to those big binders of paper, and a PalmOS device does a reasonable job of this.

As a personal organizer, a PalmOS device looks like the OS and UI was designed by a person with reasonable taste; whereas a PocketPC seems more like something specified by large commitees of engineers (and speaking as someone with an engineering degree, that was not meant as a complement).

One of Bill Gates brilliant strategies was to allow his companies software to become slow and bloated, because he knew that Intel and the DRAM vendors would be able to take care of these problems by supplying even more MHz and megabytes than needed in a couple years, a process described as Moore's law. However, this strategy is failing in the PDA arena. Battery technology improves at a much much slower rate than does semiconductor technology. Any bloat which leads to software that uses more cycles and more bytes and thus eats more battery power to accomplish the typical users commands is at a permanant architectural disadvantage. So far, the PocketPC OS shows more bloat than the PalmOS.

But the main reason I probably won't be buying a PocketPC is that there are no decent development tools for it which run on my Mac.

Re: Hardware Specs of PPC
Palm101 @ 7/25/2003 3:15:43 AM #
The reason why PPCs have had (for for the most part do have) hardware specs that are sooo much better then Palm's is because THEY NEED THEM. PPC OS is just a shrunken windows. Honestly. All the enigneers at MS did was shrink windows. As a result, PPCs need more hardware to run a slow clunky OS that was designed to run on much bigger faster machines.

Now compare all this to Palm, which designed their OS for the PDa environment. They don't NEED all of this extra power. When they do get it, however, they are FAST.

In short, the specs can be deciving, another example is Intel's P4, but, thats a story for another day.

RE: both are absolutely awful
tlovey @ 7/25/2003 4:22:05 AM #
??? This is by far the strangest comparison of the two OSes I've ever heard. Not even the usual PPC trolls ever say something like that. Anyhow, I completely disagree with Mr. AllNumbers and furthermore have complete disregard for such shallow arguments.
Now for the some constructive personal expetrience: I've tried lots of PDAs, running various OSes, from Sharp and Canon up to Palm OS 5 and PPC 2002.
None of my Palms has ever crashed on a regular basis. Sure, after experimenting with a bogus hack or those early VFS handling pieces of software, some devices did crash on couple of occasions. But when I had installed and administered them properly - my devices (my Windows desktops included) DON'T crash. I work as a system admin in a large government company so I can't afford them to. And since I've grown out of the habit of experimenting with a lot of software I don't really need, the problems I face are much rarer.
Now as for the Palm OS, I think it's a wonderful OS, in comparison with PPC at least, which I consider a nightmare, or to be more precise, a "very good" miniature copy of their desktop counterpart. I remember the time I first saw a PPC (I think it was the 3650). My friend gave it to me and, after shrugging off the intense notion I was holding a brick in my hands, started playing round the non-familiar OS. After about 15 minutes, when I started to get the hang of it, I was amazed at how silly and complicated it was. Closing the programs in RAM?!?!, Tap and hold??? Sure they HAD to have closing of programs and right-click surrogate implanted, otherwise it wouldn't be it, would it? Bottom line is, both thumbs up for Mike and a wonderful and ELABORATED (hint hint) essay.

May your Palm be with you...
RE: both are absolutely awful
macshimidh @ 7/25/2003 10:10:54 AM #
I agree with your first comment 100%. I don't know where all these reports of gross instability with OS5 are comming from, but they don't bear any resemblance to my real-world experience with the platform (including extensive Bluetooth networking and software beta testing), and such problems have yet to surface in the hundrends of units which my company uses. If anything, I'm hearing that OS5 is even more stable than our OS 4.x devices.

Of course, if you try running legacy software which doesn't follow the SDK guidlines, you will experience regular crashes, but you can hardly blame this on the OS.

RE: both are absolutely awful
73939133 @ 7/25/2003 1:01:40 PM #
PPC OS is just a shrunken windows. Honestly.

Yes, and that's a good thing as far as the operating system kernel is concerned, although it's a bad thing as far as the user interface is concerned.

The problem with PalmOS is that it is an embedded OS written for a 128k handheld with no MMU running on a 200-400MHz RISC chip. If Palm manages to put the Palm GUI on a decent operating system foundation, then PalmOS has a chance in the long term.

The GUI is so important on handhelds that PalmOS has been successful despite its absolutely pitiful fondations. OTOH, Microsoft's comparatively better kernel doesn't help them because it doesn't matter how good the kernel is if the UI sucks. But Palm won't be able to get by like this forever.



RE: both are absolutely awful
73939133 @ 7/25/2003 1:08:00 PM #
And not liking the OS because it's not advanced enough to have one thing crash and have it reboot?? This was barely implemented in WINDOWS XP!! You're blaming Palm for not doing it? Are you insane??

So, because Microsoft (and Apple) have been getting away with shipping pathetic software, it's OK for Palm to do the same thing as well? We have had operating systems that work for a few decades; the only reason why these consumer companies are getting away with putting out this junk is because consumers don't know any better. Would you put up with a TV or car that flakes out a few times a day?

but you make it sound like it's a choice between Satan and Lucifer.

It is. Add in Apple and you have Beelzebub in there, too. These companies don't give a damn about software quality, they survive on bloated feature lists, marketing hype, and image.

The things I hate about Palm OS are the lack of a file system, lack of multitasking, and some dumb limits like the clipboard. The things I like about Palm OS that I can't get in PPC is flexibility. You can't find a thumbboard on a PPC.

Yup: those are the same things I hate and I like about PalmOS and PPC. But the fact that people make nifty hardware and applications for PalmOS does not make PalmOS technically any better.

RE: both are absolutely awful
Palm101 @ 7/25/2003 3:42:27 PM #
"The problem with PalmOS is that it is an embedded OS written for a 128k handheld with no MMU running on a 200-400MHz RISC chip."

I don't think that OS 5 is written for a 128k platform. But what's wrong with writing the os to go with the current specs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Microsoft's comparatively better kernel"

It would do better in a desktop environment, but on a handheld, it does pretty bad as you said yourself.

RE: both are absolutely awful
hotpaw4 @ 7/25/2003 4:33:55 PM #
someone wrote:
>The problem with PalmOS is that it is an embedded OS written for a 128k handheld with no MMU running on a 200-400MHz RISC chip.

The MacOS was originally released for a 128k machine with a 7.5 MHz CPU and no MMU. After Mr. Gates saw the Mac prototype, he had Windows 1.0 developed for PC AT's with a 6 MHz '286 CPU. The first Pilot 1000's had a faster CPU, at 16 MHz. The first release of Linux needed a bit more memory, requiring a 16 MHz '386 with 4 MB of RAM.

RE: both are absolutely awful
TooMuch @ 7/26/2003 11:01:43 AM #
lol :)

Mr. Numbers (alias Mr. I'm-Gonna-Be-Right-No-Matter-What) gets more brilliant with every brain fart. lol :)

RE: both are absolutely awful
mj6798 @ 7/26/2003 12:58:35 PM #
It would do better in a desktop environment, but on a handheld, it does pretty bad as you said yourself

There is nothing wrong with the PocketPC kernel; it's the GUI that stinks.

RE: both are absolutely awful
mj6798 @ 7/26/2003 12:59:47 PM #
I don't think that OS 5 is written for a 128k platform. But what's wrong with writing the os to go with the current specs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PalmOS still uses many of the same interfaces as the original PalmOS for the 128k machine. OS 5, of course, requires far more memory, but it doesn't even come close to taking full advantage of the machine it runs on.

RE: both are absolutely awful
mj6798 @ 7/26/2003 1:01:31 PM #
The MacOS was originally released for a 128k machine with a 7.5 MHz CPU and no MMU. After Mr. Gates saw the Mac prototype, he had Windows 1.0 developed for PC AT's with a 6 MHz '286 CPU. The first Pilot 1000's had a faster CPU, at 16 MHz. The first release of Linux needed a bit more memory, requiring a 16 MHz '386 with 4 MB of RAM.

Yes, and the upshot of all that? By starting with non-MMU hardware, Apple and Microsoft kept shipping one flaky operating system after another. It took both companies until the late 1990's to come out with a modern kernel. And Palm is repeating that history: they started off with non-MMU hardware and they are shipping software based on that original design many years later. Linux required an MMU and more memory from the start, and that is exactly why it has worked so much better than the competition.

Except for an emulation mode, OS 6 needs to throw out most of the OS 4/5 architecture in order to be competitive. Otherwise, Palm will keep bleeding users like Apple did until they finally switched to OS X.

RE: both are absolutely awful
TooMuch @ 7/27/2003 4:01:54 PM #
mj6798 wrote: "It took both companies until the late 1990's to come out with a modern kernel. And Palm is repeating that history:..."

What is it about you guys? Where in the name of Mayberry, NC is YOUR excellent OS? You have all of the "expert" criticism and nothing to show for it. Typical seminarians.

RE: both are absolutely awful
mj6798 @ 7/28/2003 12:31:18 AM #
"You have all the 'expert' criticism and
nothing to show for it"

Well, not only do we have something to show for it,
Apple and Microsoft have validated our criticism:
Apple has adopted a BSD and Mach kernel, after railing
for years against those platforms, and Microsoft
has implemented a mix of BSD and VMS for their
platform. Of course, they could have done that much
earlier--UNIX has been around since the 1970s.

It's know-nothings like you that keep supporting
companies that put out lousy products. Palm will
sooner or later switch to a standard kernel and API
as well, or they will go out of business. But in
the meantime, they'll drain everybody's wallets
quite a bit more--the kind of junky software they put
out may not be good for customers, but as long as
they can get away with it, it's good for their
bottom line.

RE: both are absolutely awful
mikecane @ 7/28/2003 6:52:48 PM #
What, BSD -- ala Unix/Linux -- is the savior?!

I don't see lines around the block for the Sharp Zaurii. Nice hardware (especially the Japan-only tiny one), but getting stuff on it is just too much trouble for the average person. And those who currently own them are more interested in the Linux-box-in-your-pocket aspect than the PDA aspects.

"politics"

arielb @ 7/25/2003 1:28:15 AM #
I think "politics" should also matter. Palm, unlike Netscape, Apple, Wordperfect etc is the only one in town that has a chance against Microsoft. The most recent proof that palm is viable is that a good pocketpc app-Textmaker is coming. And Palm should stay viable because if PPC takes over there will be no more competition at all.
Even if you can say palm sucks in this and that it's still worth it to keep computing alive. It's not as if we're still stuck on dragonball, 16 megs of ram and low res b/w. Palm has a future and I want to be a part of it. ok I'm beginning to sound like a zealot hehehe

RE:
Palm101 @ 7/25/2003 3:23:38 AM #
I had never heard of textmaker until today, when the news article was released. (That's what I get for being an avid Palm user.) But it looks really good. However, I'm having a hard time figuring out why this app is SUCH a big deal. Dataviz has a DocsToGo for quite a while, and frankly I love the suite. Textmaker might be sightly to quite a bit better, but Dataviz is due for an update to their almost equivelent software in the near future. I guess my point is that Word processing can be done quite well on the Palm already.

RE:
arielb @ 7/25/2003 8:52:01 AM #
I haven't heard about it either until yesterday too :) but it's a big deal to me because it means that PPC developers can't ignore Palm because it's not going away and also it proves my prediction that it's hard making money off an office app for ppc when Microsoft, the 800 pound gorilla offers its software for free on all ppc's

RE: Why Textmaker matters
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 12:56:41 PM #
1) You can beam complex word processing documents between PalmOS and PPCs (PPCs might need Peacemaker Pro for that, however; *cough*).

2) Textmaker has just about become the WP standard for PPC.

3) Textmaker has spellcheck -- D2G does not.

4) There is a desktop version of Textmaker which syncs with the PDA documents. You don't have to pay megabucks for MS Word -- use Textmaker instead.

Only #3 matters if you already have Word, don't expect to interact with PPC users, or have a Mac.

who cares?
73939133 @ 7/25/2003 2:03:22 PM #
Palm, unlike Netscape, Apple, Wordperfect etc is the only one in town that has a chance against Microsoft.

So? Both Palm and Microsoft are companies making proprietary software, proprietary APIs, and selling ther software at a premium. Whether Palm "has a chance against Microsoft" makes no difference to me unless Palm gives me something Microsoft doesn't. Right now, it still does (it works with non-Windows desktops). But otherwise, I really don't care.

PALMN vs PPC

Renecl @ 7/25/2003 3:42:14 AM #
Yep, I had the same.............

The problem is that a lot of people ar enow buying a PPC because is het the name POCKET-PC and people see a WINDOWS XP screen.

BUT !!!

Is has nothing to do with a PC, NO pc application will work, the only things that are alike are the WORD and EXCEL icons. But the Pocket PC WORD and EXCEL are totally uncompatible with the PC versions.

People see a WINDOWS XP desktop, but that is only the picture of it.

Also with every installation of a program, the PPC gets slower.

And synchronisation is only the DATA, and NOT the programs. A depletes battery results in installing all your programs again. and registering them again.

With PALM ist easy, just press the horsync button and go take a cup of koffee. When your back all is restored incuding the serials and all your own stuff.

Regards,
Rene

RE: PALMN vs PPC
batsai @ 7/25/2003 2:48:24 PM #
Is has nothing to do with a PC, NO pc application will work, the only things that are alike are the WORD and EXCEL icons. But the Pocket PC WORD and EXCEL are totally uncompatible with the PC versions.

So what, you're saying you can run Quake 3 on your Palm V???? The fact that PC applications won't run on a Windows powered PDA is not a deal breaker in my opinion :) In addition, one of the features of PPC is direct synchronization with MS Word and Excel on the desktop. The problem with Pocket Word is that it strips out a lot of special formatting. I've been using various iPAQs over the last year or so. I recently picked up a Zire 71, and it feels great to back with the Palm OS.

It surprises me the number of people who complain that PPC is 'difficult' or 'overly complicated.' It isn't. It's just different. Sure, I had a shock going from a Sony Clie T615 to an iPAQ 3900, but it was even worse going from an iPAQ back to a Zire 71. There are some things I really liked about the stock scheduling program on my iPAQ I wish I could do on my Palm, such as being able to cut and paste ENTIRE appointments, not just the appointment text. In addition, I'd take contacts on the PPC over the Palm's address book anyday. They're both great, but come on, the Palm's only has room for one address and no web page field? Gimme a break! Sure you can use custom fields, but it's not as neat and organized as the PPC's.

On the other hand, I do enjoy the stability and speed of the Zire, although it has crashed on me from time to time. To each his own, I just think a lot of people on this board haven't really given the PPC platform a fair chance. Just because it doesn't behave like a Palm doesn't mean it's a bad OS or unintuitive. If you try to use a PPC like a Palm, it IS bad and unintuitive. PPC is just different, and if you don't prefer it fine, but IMHO, it is still a good OS; it is NOT Windows just 'shrunken down.' It's interesting the author condemns tap and hold- I love it! Select some text, tap and hold and chose cut- easy! I've tried to tap and hold in the scroll bars of my iPAQ and it doesn't work- maybe you need to recalibrate your digitizer, Mike :)

Anyway, I enjoyed reading your article. I'd just say try it before you condemn it- it ain't so bad :)

RE: PALMN vs PPC
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 3:10:44 PM #
>>>It's interesting the author condemns tap and hold- I love it! Select some text, tap and hold and chose cut- easy! I've tried to tap and hold in the scroll bars of my iPAQ and it doesn't work- maybe you need to recalibrate your digitizer, Mike :)

"Tap-and-Hold (TnH) is a really nice feature"

-- that's condemnation?

As for the digitizer -- no; it was fine. I've noticed that each model PPC has its own set of, uh, quirks. You can read post after post about how PPC from A has X problem while PPC from B doesn't, yet exhibits problem Y.

RE: PALMN vs PPC
batsai @ 7/25/2003 6:33:45 PM #
Ok, my bad, I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong- sorry about that :)

As for the digitizer -- no; it was fine. I've noticed that each model PPC has its own set of, uh, quirks. You can read post after post about how PPC from A has X problem while PPC from B doesn't, yet exhibits problem Y.

True, some PPC's have been notoriously unstable, but you could also say the same things about Palms (although to a lesser extent- my problem was I always loaded them up with so many hacks the poor things couldn't help but crash :). I just wish we could take the best of both worlds to create the 'perfect' pda, if such a thing ever exists :)

Thanks again for the interesting article!

RE: PALM vs PPC
Pony99CA @ 7/26/2003 2:31:27 AM #
Renecl wrote:

And synchronisation is only the DATA, and NOT the programs. A depletes battery results in installing all your programs again. and registering them again.

With PALM ist easy, just press the horsync button and go take a cup of koffee. When your back all is restored incuding the serials and all your own stuff.

You can set ActiveSync to automatically backup the whole device when you connect.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: PALMN vs PPC
mj6798 @ 7/26/2003 1:06:44 PM #
Is has nothing to do with a PC, NO pc application will work,

But it's a hell of a lot easier for software vendors to port applications and libraries to PPC than to Palm.

Interesting opinion - but I'm heading the other way...

teq @ 7/25/2003 2:44:47 AM #
@Mike:
Interesting opinion, and well stated. (And you wrote all that in Graffiti?!)

For myself, I'm heading the other way. I've just ordered a HP h2210. Why? Well, my personal reasons are:

- I'm really sick and tired of my Tungsten's digitizer re-calibration problems (which keep bugging me since I've installed Palm's audio/digitizer/etc patch)
- I'm generally disappointed with 320x320 resolution. Tiny, REALLY tiny, non-scalable fonts aren't what I expected. I hope that Cleartype will be the solution.
- Poor web browser: Whether it's eBay (Germany), my bank, my company's email server - none of them seems to work with Palm's Web Pro.
- And, of course, it's always exciting to try a new toy... ;-)

IMHO, the h2210 has a cool form factor (it's even lighter than my Tungsten T), PPC 2003 (hopefully!) is finally faster/more reliable than it's predecessors AND the h2210 has Bluetooth - which is important to me because
a) I send SMS a lot, using FUN SMS on my Tungsten T and my T68i. I hope I will find a replacement for FUN SMS on the PPC...
b) syncing via Bluetooth with my notebook is way cool (hope this will work with the h2210 as well).

I'll give myself half a year for the conversion - if I'm not satisfied, I'll be back. (Hey, wait - when was the speculated release date of the T3?)

Cheers,
teq

****** Pilot 5000 => Palm Pilot III => Palm Vx => M505 => Tungsten T- Ive had them all and loved each one of them.

RE: Interesting opinion - but I'm heading the other way...
Roberto_tores @ 7/25/2003 9:43:39 AM #
I am considering purchasing a 1940. I miss the sleek form factor of the m500 and 1900 series are even smaller.

I am just turned off by the 1940 stupidly yellowish screen, if HP repairs the screen problem I will buy one regardless of the mediocre OS. I don't want to deal with clumsy sliders, I just want a small form factor.

RE: Interesting opinion - but I'm heading the other way...
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 3:14:13 PM #
Have you held a 19xx's stylus?

RE: Interesting opinion - but I'm heading the other way...
amin @ 7/25/2003 9:11:48 PM #
Yes, and it beats the hell out of an NX80 stylus!

e740 and T|T
RE: Interesting opinion - but I'm heading the other way...
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 9:39:29 AM #
Touche, amin! The NX73/80 stylus is a Thing from Hell!

I think Sony has a design saboteur in their midst!

Key word: trust

John Pahl @ 7/25/2003 5:22:43 AM #
For me the key point about my PDA is I must be able trust it to be there for me, and I can with Palm (well with my M500).

I tried a wizzy e740 & it died loosing all my data after 72 hours on a sailing trip in which it was just sitting in a bag doing nothing. I don't trust pocket pc because of the crap battery life. I haven't upgraded because from what I've seen the TT etc it doesn't have such a good battery life that I can trust it without thinking. The new Sony looks interesting as it claims 14 days battery with standard PIM applications, plus it has an auto backup feature, which means again I should be able to trust it.

Because I trust my palm always to be there and always to keep the data I rely completely on it and it becomes part of my life.

PDA list: Psion 5, Palm III, Palm V, Palm M500

RE: Key word: trust
chromaticb @ 7/25/2003 9:10:06 AM #
as stated in the manual, the bridge back up battery last 72 hrs. Same as with all ARM power POS devices, they all use bridge battery isntead of second battery.

IF you want more certain data security, use fiel store (aka save it to internal flash ROM, all high end devices has some some spare ROM to save urgent data)

RE: Key word: trust
hoodoo @ 7/25/2003 9:12:36 AM #
PPCs are known for chewing batteries when off. Palms, even with hi-res, don't do this, they only use MINIMAL battery charge when off. I leave my Prism lying around for days sometimes and it will be at full charge still when I turn it on.

RE: Key word: trust
HiWire @ 7/25/2003 1:02:28 PM #
My brother, who works at Research in Motion, says that the devices are really on all the time... that's why they start up so quickly. I went to Future Shop a few days ago to play with Pocket PC - could not stand it. Just a retarded OS - my best friend has a Casio Pocket PC that he never uses - admits that there's no practical value.

He used to show off all the time with the MP3 player and videos on his IBM Microdrive - but I don't think he's even touched it for months.

And that person who mentioned all the Windows users - they use it but do not love or trust it - ditto for me.
Bloat, bloat, bloat, pop!

There's a lesson to be learned from MS - piling functions on without fixing what's broken may work in the corporate market, but it will never buy you loyalty from intelligent users.

Palm m505 User

RE: Key word: trust
John Pahl @ 7/28/2003 5:30:49 AM #
chromaticb missed the point, which was that a PDA should be just there when you switch it on. The 72 hours then dead would have been bad even if the data had been stored, as I have to know I can trust my PDA to be available so I can look up phone numbers etc when I want it. To in addition loose all the data was just inexcusable.

You should be able to travel with a PDA without worrying about charging it all the time. They shouldn't be tamagochi: they are there to help you!

PDA not PC Replacement

tmuralli @ 7/25/2003 6:51:32 AM #
No matter what handheld OS you may use, IT DOESN'T REPLACE YOUR DESKTOP. I have NZ90 and Loox 600, both is equally good and bad and both doesn't replace your desktop. Most of the PPC buyers are trying to replace their desktop which is not possible. I remember reading an article on PIC titled PDA are not PC replacement. Even though I have both Palm and PPC I still prefer my NZ90, First of all I have some big files on Avantgo and 200MHz X-Scale on Sony is much faster then 400Mhz same processor on Loox. Another thing is a word file on my desktop is around 16KB, when it tranferred to my NZ to open with Picsel Viewer is only 3KB, the same file on PPC is 12KB, 4 times higher. To enter a task on To Do List, press the button and start to write, simple as that but this not possible on PPC, on PIM application it clearly shows if there is a Note created but PPC doesn't show any sign you have to check manually.I can write a long list but it's waste of time. I think you know what I mean.

Agree Kill the Slider.

Roberto_tores @ 7/25/2003 9:37:29 AM #
I miss the m500 form factor. Palm should kill the slider and make it less than .5inch thin.

That's not impossible, the IPaq 1900 seris is just as small as an m500 but with an arm. If palm does not makes small sleek handhelds again many fasionastas are going to fall to the sleek 1940 and 1910.

I don't see any need for a slider in a device with virtual graffity, it just makes it thiker and more expensive and also adds an aditional step for usage.

(I know some one will say "If you don't like the slider leave it open". Allright but then it wont fit in a case and it will become a very large handheld.)

RE: Agree Kill the Slider.
HiWire @ 7/25/2003 12:59:27 PM #
I second that motion... although I could live with the slider: the m500/V series format is probably less expensive to manufacture; smaller and lighter in design. The Palm hardware guys probably felt "one-upped" by the Sony engineers (Twist & Shout), and thus had to go with all this slidey stuff (Tungsten, Zire 71) to compensate...

Palm m505 User
RE: Agree Kill the Slider.
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 1:03:58 PM #
Once Jeff Hawkins is officially installed as Chief Technologist at the combined Palm-Treo, perhaps his first order of business will be to update the classic Palm V design. He can't be happy that it has seemingly been dropped. I agree that the tiny hp 19xx makes Palm look bad in the "form factor" competition.

RE: re-occuring theme
Cheetah @ 7/27/2003 12:44:20 AM #
I agree...I will never buy a PDA with a slider. I don't want the extra step.

I have bought 2 PPCs but I gave both away after a while and went back to Palm.

However I am looking at the HP 1940 due to it's small sleek size. That was one of my big complaints about PPC before the HP units.

Why won't Palm make a slim/small PDA like the 515 or the HP1940? This is a re-occuring theme on every PDA board I've visited.

I can't believe I didn't know about the d-click/drag!

dtuttle @ 7/25/2003 11:28:47 AM #
and I'm the biggest Palm-head I know!

Good thoughts

Mikio @ 7/25/2003 1:28:33 PM #
When I lost my Palm m505 at the airport last year, I figured that it was a good excuse to try out a PPC device, so I found a good deal on eBay for the (at the time) brand new Toshiba e570. Reasons for buying it were mainly because of good reviews on it, as well as built-in 802.11b.

Instead of going to CompUSA, I was playing around with it at Fry's Electronics, and I was also tempted to get Sharp's Zaurus, as I used to use a predecessor to it while living in Tokyo.

In any case, my first impressions of it were that it was a bit bulkier than the m505, but it seemed to be much more fully-featured than the Palm. In many cases it was... and it played some really awesome games on it too...

But in the end, I had similar conclusions of how some of the most basic things I have come to love in the PalmOS were missing from the PPC. Moreover, the battery life on the PPC was very short, and I couldn't get away with missing a day or two of recharge, hence, I learned the hard way (many times) of how a full discharge would wipe out all my data, thus, making it very unreliable to use.

In the end, I went out and got the Tungsten T, and have been much happier with it. It may not have 802.11b in it, and I still don't have any real use for Bluetooth now, but all the basic stuff is in there, and it all works nicely and reliably.

T3 to the rescue?

xavier @ 7/25/2003 1:29:13 PM #
My PDA journey started with a Newton MessagePad 2000 and I can still feel how my heart was beating when the UPS man arrived. Resolution of 320x480 (if I remember right), handwriting recognition that worked well for me. The perfect PDA (except,of course, that it was a brick and a half) I developed Palm envy when I saw the size and coolness of my brother's Pilot. But 160x160, come on. With the pressure of size and improvements of Palm to the level of the IIIxe, I took the plunge. Someone even made a cool program that let me beam my 600+ memo's to my IIIxe. Still in love, now able to take my PDA everywhere. Ran out of memory and was on the brink of succumbing to the iPaq of the day when my friend emailed be a rumor of the Handera 330...VG, 240x320 resolution, voice recorder, dual slots, didn't care about color...I grabbed one when it came out and it has served me well since then. Ready to update, as is my office and I had been ready to recommend that we all make the switch to the h2215 as it seemed I should finally give up hope that another Palm model would ever let me have full screen/VG without the flip/twist/keyboard sony antics. Played with an h2215 at store...pretty nice. Matter of like rather than love though. Then the rumor of the T3 hit and this may just keep me in the camp again if they can come out with it in the next two months. Looks sweet. Don't care about the slider, but I'm willing to do what it takes. 320x480 just like my beloved Newton, but now able to be carried everywhere in my pocket. I could love the T3....so could all of my colleagues.

Palm, if you're listening, get me (and my office) T3's by October, for $399 or it may be farewell (forever?). I hope not, but it will be hard to hold off the desire for a new PDA much longer....The rumor of the h4000 series looks tasty as well.

RE: T3 to the rescue?
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 2:10:45 PM #
$399?! What if it's $499? Is a higher-resolution screen worth $100 more? (Yes, I hate premium pricing too; I expect it all to end next year as PalmOS vs PPC competition gets fierce.)

I wouldn't get all excited over that hp 4xxx. If it's what I think it will be, it'll be brick.

RE: T3 to the rescue?
xavier @ 7/25/2003 3:04:39 PM #
Sure $499 would not be unreasonable as an introductory price. The h2215 may be available for $349 by the time the T3 hits the market. Heck, I don't especially care how much $$, my employer is going to pay for them. I just want a new PDA NOW, and I'd like it to be a T3....Which will come first...loss of patience of a T3 release???
RE: T3 to the rescue?
xavier @ 7/25/2003 3:12:45 PM #
er..."or a T3 release" is what I meant to type....
RE: T3 to the rescue?
mikecane @ 7/25/2003 3:15:05 PM #
Yeah, I got ya. I also hope the TT3 will be out September/October (of *this* year, Palm SG!).

PPC boosters have been able to dismiss the 320x480 screen of Sony. But once Palm SG itself has them...

RE: T3 to the rescue?
kevdo @ 7/25/2003 3:26:10 PM #
I think the slider on the T|T and T|T2 is merely kind of stupid, as it covers the graffiti area you don't often need when using programs.

But, for a T|T3 with soft graffiti, having the slider is really stupid. There will be a lot more programs supporting 320x480 once Palm does this and having that slider is going to be a pain. People will need to keep the slider open all the time which of course negates the "smallness" of the T|T form factor (when closed).

Give me a Palm V form factor with the entire screen exposed, please. Heck, how about a Zire "77" with 320x480 to go along with the camera and such?

I'd dearly love to have Palm go back to the side rail as well, so that slip covers and such can actually be used again.

-Kevin Crossman

RE: T3 to the rescue?
Tungsten @ 7/25/2003 3:38:49 PM #
Palm needs to put out a model with a CF slot. Anyone agree?

RE: T3 to the rescue?
xavier @ 7/25/2003 4:00:36 PM #
I didn't think I cared about the CF slot so much, knowing that WiFi was coming soon on SD, with WiFi/memory combo cards as well. But now that it looks like the SDIO card will stick out 1/2 out the top, the CF models are starting to look quite attractive. Looks like it could break off.

Maybe this could be why Palm is going to stick with the slider for the T3--to make up for how far the blame SDIO cards are going to stick out!!

RE: T3 to the rescue?
Shotokan @ 7/25/2003 5:05:32 PM #
I would really appreciate a CF slot, I have users that are using Handspring Pro's with Modem & Scanner. Our users only need to dial into and synchronize their handhelds and database records every-other day. Wireless connection is still to much money for the group to pay, when they can do a dial up from home or hotel to an 800 number and be done in 4 minutes. I have not found a modem or scanner available in a SD configuration. If anyone knows of one, I would like to hear it. Right now, we are looking at PPC for our users because of the CF slot. Requirement for the group matter more than my preference of OS.

RE: T3 to the rescue?
hotpaw4 @ 7/25/2003 5:08:45 PM #
someone wrote:
> Palm needs to put out a model with a CF slot.

A CF slot requires much more battery power than an SD slot. They will go the way of ISA slot's in PC's.

RE: T3 to the rescue?
cbowers @ 7/25/2003 5:16:18 PM #
"..but I would like to address your attitude of hopeless negativism... Consider the lilies of the G'dam fields..."

-Oh Brother Where Art Though...

But seriously. Cite please.

I could dig up my previous posts on this previously which showed multiple manufacturers specs, with the difference essentially a wash in most cases. But I think the burden of effort goes to you first.

Even a 5-10mA difference would be a near pointless difference all things considered (size, durability, manufacturing costs), especially when compared to the vastly more consuming components like RAM, CPU, and Screen. I can use *both* the SD and CF slot's at the same time in my HandEra 330, waaaay longer than most other color ARM toting PDA's even with their SD slot sitting idle. And I could continous ping with a wireless CF card in it, longer than many SD slotted color PDA's with or without wirless devices enabled would last. My Tungsten C only keeps up due to the hugeness of it's battery, but I note that the discharge rate is nearly as steep and the charge rate even at minimum brightness. The SD slot is the least of my power worries.

Comparing power consumption of an SD vs. CF slot is like pondering if I'll get less wet, jumping into a lake with or without my hat on.

In the real world, one will more likely compare the size of devices like the Margi Presenter-to-go in CF, SD, and Memory Stick forms. Far and away, the CF version is the smallest, least protruding (and at that the MS and SD versions still need an external box).

When an SD version of something is more costly for the manufacturer to make, less convenient for me to use, and harder to obtain (today) in the same variety of brands, and as cheaply as CF, I think it's safe to say SD is still a case in point of shrinking the usefulness right out of a device.

Power-Schmower, a couple mA's here or there is the *least* of anyone's issue in a comparison. Next year, maybe a different story, but not today.

RE: T3 to the rescue?
helf @ 7/25/2003 6:32:09 PM #
I wish another palm would come out wit ha fully supported CF type 2 slot.

I am still using my he330. I've yet to see a more usefull palm hit hte market.

CF slot?
hotpaw4 @ 7/25/2003 8:18:18 PM #
I wrote:
> CF slot ... They will go the way of ISA slot's in PC's.

Actually, some industrial PC's still come with ISA slots. So, maybe someone (Acacia? Symbol?) will manufacture industrialized PalmOS devices with CF slots for tiny specialized markets. Probably priced accordingly though...

RE: T3 to the rescue?
tjl @ 8/3/2003 11:52:42 AM #
First let me say that I,m an OS agnostic, I make decisions on a device mostly on hardware.

For WiFi a CF card is great. Yes it uses a bit more juice but it will also give you 20-25% greater range than an SD card and thats what WiFi is all about. With an external ant4ena you do better than built in 802.11 also.

Why I'll only use PalmOS.

HandyMan @ 7/25/2003 3:21:33 PM #
Although I prefer Palm devices myself, I find this review too biased. Come on, he's basing his conclusion on a non-existent T3? Who cares about all the fancy features and who has them first.

I must admit that I bought a Sony Clie because of the nice screen and MP3 capabilities. But when it comes down to it, I use my PDA for schedule and reminders 90% of the time. The app that gets loaded most is DateBK5.

If it doesn't run DateBK5, I'm not buying... for at this time (and for the forseeable future), PalmOS is where the action is for PIM functions.

So chose your poison based on your needs, not any fancy "better than the Jones" features.

RE: Why I'll only use PalmOS.
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 9:42:47 AM #
>>I find this review too biased.

It is labeled "Opinion." Not "Analysis" or "Face-Off" or "Head-to-Head" or "Point-by-Point."

It DOES have a file system!!!

LarryGarfield @ 7/25/2003 3:40:18 PM #
Mike, I agree with you right down the line.... with one exception.

People who say the Palm OS has no file system do so because they have complete and total tunnel vision about what a "file system" really is.

Of course Palm OS has a file system. It has "data" that it stores in some structured fashion. The definition of that structure is the file system. The Palm OS file system is, in fact, more complex than the one desktop's use.

When people say Palm OS has no file system, what they really mean, and what they would say if they knew the first thing about data storage, is that it doesn't use the same data storage paradigm as POSIX (Unix, GNU/Linux, BSD, etc.) and reduced-POSIX (Windows) systems. Those systems use a data storage system that is defined by these disorganized blobs of bits called "files" that have no internal structure whatsoever, and then this concept called a "directory" that is an index of files and other directories, thus creating a virtual hierarchy of bit blobs.

A hierarchy of bit blobs is the most common data storage system in use today, to be sure. But it is hardly the only. High-end Oracle database systems format hard disks with a completely different "file system" that is designed for SQL tables, not for bit blobs. The old Apple Newtons had a
"file system" that is often referred to as an "object soup", which was not bit blobs. Palm OS uses simple database objects (blobs), each of which does have an internal structure, records. Those database objects are then simply left in a flat namespace associated with their corresponding application via program IDs (an idea borrowed from Mac classic) while records have built-in category organization. For the uber-PIM usage that the Palm OS was originally designed for (and which others in this thread have said is where it still rules), that is far far better than simple bit blobs.

Directories require directory management. Raise your hand if you want to deal with PATH statements to make your Palm work. All of you who have your hands up, go use DOS 3.3.

Now, since then there has grown up the need to support foreign bit blob files in RAM on Palm OS, mostly for stuff like mp3s, word processing files, and other stuff that does not map into a record-based structure. Fine, ok, I agree with you. The *already existing* support for bit blob files needs to be enhanced, and HotSync updated to support transfering those to RAM. I won't disagree with that. But that is different from saying that "Palm OS doesn't have a file system, which sucks." That statement is simply false.

Aside from that pet peeve, Mike, agreed on all counts. :-) Go Palm(Source)!

--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

RE: It DOES have a file system!!!
helf @ 7/25/2003 6:40:08 PM #
Wow, I did not know that. Thanks for the info :)

RE: It DOES have a file system!!!
Timothy Rapson @ 7/25/2003 9:25:13 PM #
Palm does NOT have a file system. Sorry. They have bit blobs, if you want to call them that. But they are not files. They are databases.

But, the bottom line is just as you say, there are no desktop cliets for many Palm OS databases, and tons of other limitations that Palm OS must overcome to be really as useful as it ought to be.

RE: It DOES have a file system!!!
HiWire @ 7/25/2003 9:33:36 PM #
I believe Microsoft is working towards a database-oriented file system in their next-generation operating system too. So there! :-D

Palm m505 User
RE: It DOES have a file system!!!
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 9:45:20 AM #
>>>Now, since then there has grown up the need to support foreign bit blob files in RAM on Palm OS, mostly for stuff like mp3s, word processing files, and other stuff that does not map into a record-based structure. Fine, ok, I agree with you. The *already existing* support for bit blob files needs to be enhanced, and HotSync updated to support transfering those to RAM. I won't disagree with that. But that is different from saying that "Palm OS doesn't have a file system, which sucks." That statement is simply false.

-- agreed on that and what you said. But the Mac allows you to put X "blob" *there*. With PalmOS -- thus far -- it can't *see* there. Unless I go through the contortions of *adding* that capability from a third party. I think that capability should be built-in, and I'm sure you agree with that.

RE: It DOES have a file system!!!
mj6798 @ 7/26/2003 1:08:37 PM #
Of course Palm OS has a file system

Yes, it does: a flat directory of databases inside the handheld, with no structure or organization to it. Furthermore, that file system cannot store files that don't have the Palm database headers. It is a file system alright, just not a very good one.

If it were a good file system, you could keep related applications and files together in subdirectories, and you could put things like PDF and image files into it without changing them.

RE: It DOES have a file system!!!
LarryGarfield @ 7/27/2003 4:42:51 AM #
-- agreed on that and what you said. But the Mac allows you to put X "blob" *there*. With PalmOS -- thus far -- it can't *see* there. Unless I go through the contortions of *adding* that capability from a third party. I think that capability should be built-in, and I'm sure you agree with that.

You're still thinking of a desktop definition of "there". In a hierarchical file system, "there" is "directory X inside directory Y inside directory Z". On the Palm, in RAM, there is only one there; "in RAM". (VFS-accessed cards have a desktop-style file system, and are accessed independently.)

There are really two completely separate and independent questions here.

1) "Palm OS needs to support non-database bit blob files." I agree completely.
2) "Palm OS needs directory support." I disagree completely.

Directories are a mess. Frankly the OS X method of dealing with the issue (applications that are directories and the OS hides that fact from you) is brilliant, if you're not interested in backward compatibility. Moving Palm OS to such a system, however, would be a byatch. :-)

--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

RE: It DOES have a file system!!!
mikecane @ 7/27/2003 10:09:35 AM #
OK, if you put it that way: Yes, I want directory support and the hell with backward compatibility. Palm is going to face the wall just like Apple did with OS X. To move forward, they'll have to leave the past behind. (MS will be facing the same wall too.)

I want control over where I can place things. Right now, storage cards are more confusing for PalmOS than for PPC. PPC, you start with My Documents. With PalmOS, my god!, someone has to tell you what folders to create in order to "legally" store things like MP3s, MPEGs, MP3s, et al. This has been going on since the first MSticked CLIE (perhaps before then, with SuperPalm stuff -- you're the expert on them). It must stop.

RE: It DOES have a file system!!!
helf @ 7/27/2003 8:25:36 PM #
actualyl they could still do everything you all want and keep backwards compatibility with most apps. just keep PACE along with the new OS..

Seems like only yesterday.....wait it WAS yesterday......

Islander @ 7/25/2003 5:42:33 PM #
Mike was a bashin Palm left and right.
No file system. No VG. Boohoo.
I thought you was on the verge of making the switch to PPC, for what, LIKE A YEAR!!!!! Dude I said you would NEVER DO IT. On the one hand bashing Palm yet all the while finding some minor quibble about every PPC. It was obvious that you never really wanted a PPC and was just waiting for Palm to get it right. Only you never knew thats what you was doing.

The stuff you write today I debated with you when your were basing Palm like there was no tommorow.

You act like a prophet around here telling us the obvious about Palm in your "predictions" while YOU CANT EVEN TELL US WHAT YOU WILL DO with any accuracy. I fortell what YOU are going to do against your own protests and STILL get it right.



RE: Seems like only yesterday.....wait it WAS yesterday......
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 9:47:26 AM #
Please dig up the URL for those messages. I will have fune reading them again!

RE: Seems like only yesterday.....wait it WAS yesterday......
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 9:47:56 AM #
fune = fun. Damned renegade finger!

Thanks, Mike

palmwatcher @ 7/25/2003 6:19:22 PM #
Mike,

Thanks for your comments. They were cogent, precise, and totally applicable to my situation and feelings. I have tried to like PPC in its various incarnations. The latest is probably the best. I even gave the Ipaq 2210 as whirl. And as I was using it for my PIM, I realized how irritated I was becoming with its slower speed and frequent lock-ups. Yes, I had a POS unit before and realized what I was missing..so now I'm charging up my new T2 (and dreaming about the possibilties offered by the T3). Anyway, thanks again. And when I want REAL HWR, I always go back to my Newton. I'm sorry but the PPC's are just too small to write on, for me. And, yes you are right about the imprecise nature of their taps and drags...especially if you like to use Transcriber/Calligrafer. If they didn't cost so much, I'd had PPC-splatters all over my walls.

Anyway, I think I'll go tap-and-drag for a while ;-)



RE: Thanks, Mike
Jacques T @ 7/25/2003 6:43:59 PM #
I owned the M1xx, M505, iPAQ 38xx, iPAQ 39xx, and now I have a TT-1. My PPC experience was nothing but a waste of money. I never used it. I went shopping today for the TT-2 and the salesman tempted me with the HP 1940. I was attracted by the form factor then I remembered the horrible PPC OS. I think I will be going to the store later to buy the TT-2, something I know will continue to help me simplify my life and entertain me. By the way, DivX 5 on the Tungsten with mmplayer kicks a**! I love Palm. :)

RE: Thanks, Mike
Jacques T @ 7/25/2003 9:30:39 PM #
Update. I just bought my Tungsten 2. ;-)

They both suck!

Foo Fighter @ 7/25/2003 10:46:36 PM #
This debate reminds of children arguing over which comic book hero has the most super-human strength. I own both types of devices, and frankly each platform is so full of holes, shortcomings, quirks, bugs, idiosyncrasies, and compromises...I often wonder why I bother carrying a PDA at all. PalmOS is geriatric and brain dead. Pocket PC is ill-conceived and inconsistent. Pick which platform you would rather be victimized by and try to find some solace in your choice.

There isn't a PalmOS device on the market that I feel comfortable carrying (I'm returning my TT2...very poor quality, and the audio hasn't improved). What ever happened to flip covers? I won't be buying the TT3 when it comes out either. Not until Palm kills the slider and attaches a flip cover. Until then it's goodbye Palm! Hell, I may even sell my Zire 71 and leave the Palm platform altogether.

And Pocket PC? Don't even get me started. The designs are boring and rehashed. I can hardly tell where Axim ends and iPaq begins. Same soup in a different bowl. And Pocket PC 2003...or Windows Mobile 2003 for Pocket PC...Or Unimpressive Bugware for Clone handhelds...call it what you like, is unimpressive.

Why carry a PDA at all when my Cell phone and iPod can fill my needs. I say chuck your PDA into the drink and forget about it. It's just a toy anyway.

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

RE: They both suck!
helf @ 7/25/2003 11:41:58 PM #
Its not a toy for a lot of people.. And I actualyl like epoc more than eitehr of these OS's.

RE: They both suck!
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 10:07:20 AM #
Links on foo's blog:

Pocket PC thoughts - Site for Pocket PC users
Palminfocenter - Resource for Palm fans

-- so, PPC owners are "users," but owners of Palms are "fans"?

Or could it be that it's just not possible to be fanatical about PPC?

(I'm leaving aside the facts "thoughts" is Cap T and PIC is two words... oops, didn't leave them aside after all!)

RE: They both suck!
Foo Fighter @ 7/26/2003 10:13:38 AM #
Your point is eluding me. What's wrong with these links?

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com
RE: They both suck!
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 10:38:12 AM #
I thought it's plain. Go re-read. How could I be plainer?

Geez, foo, you ever sleep?! I was offline for 14 hours (stalkers, take note!). You?

RE: They both suck!
Foo Fighter @ 7/26/2003 1:13:30 PM #
Humor me, it's Saturday and my brain is still in a dazed weekend mode. I don't quite catch what you are implying. The typos? I fixed that.

And yes I do sleep. I went to bed around 1:00AM, and awoke at 8:00AM. That good enough for you? ;-)

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

RE: They both suck!
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 3:13:12 PM #
No, Foo. You need more sleep!! Ha!

Well, perhaps it's a subtle distinction, but *you* made it -- PPC owners are "users" but Palm owners are "fans." You tell me the difference you meant.

RE: They both suck!
Foo Fighter @ 7/26/2003 3:28:55 PM #
Well the distinction was unintentional. But the image fits. Pocket PC is just a product...but PalmOS is has a cult following, which has upsides and downsides. Palm itself is a cultural phenomenon.

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com
RE: They both suck!
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 3:43:41 PM #
Hmmm. Well, I was going to say something but decided to do a very rare thing: not say anything!

RE: They both suck!
Foo Fighter @ 7/26/2003 4:03:15 PM #
Be my guest. Let it out. Speak man, speak!!! ;-)

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com
RE: They both suck!
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 4:44:03 PM #
Not against you. About PPC people. let it drop.

RE: They both suck!
Foo Fighter @ 7/26/2003 5:55:58 PM #
One word...Ska!

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com
RE: They both suck!
Timothy Rapson @ 7/26/2003 7:43:16 PM #
After buying a new Zayo and trying it out this week, I want to state difinitively the Foo has nailed it.

They both suck.

I want my Epoc back. 4 months without a lockup or crash. Files that go places and do things. Programs that work.


What did we ever do to deserve the mess we have now. The Palm is nice, has camera models that I like and hi-res. The PPC has files and very powerful program like Pocket Artist and TextMaker that are none-the-less bog slow and clumsy and attempt to do far too much.

They both crash and lockup. The Palm needs hacks to do fonts, alternate text entry, and lots of stuff that should be built-in. The stupic PPC won't close a program without a hack or going through 3-4 screens to settings, memory, running programs. SHUT OFF! It almost seems like an evil plot to waste our time and money and frustrate us more than satisfy us.

I would pay $1,000 for an EPOC Quartz model.

RE: They both suck!
helf @ 7/26/2003 8:46:00 PM #
yeah. epoc does rock.I have a series 5 for a few motnhs before it got stolen at an arcade ( stupid me left it on a game...).. Best pda I have ever bought. Never had a lick of trouble with it.

RE: They both suck!
mikecane @ 7/27/2003 10:15:20 AM #
Perhaps the Biggest Business Blunder Ever has to be that Psion never did a portrait-oriented PDA with EPOC. What a different world this world be today.

Psion Infocenter?

A Pocket PC Rebuttal

Pony99CA @ 7/26/2003 3:03:42 AM #
That was an interesting take on the Pocket PC, but not exactly reasonable in some criticisms. Let's look at the three faults Mike spent some time on.

1) Beaming Frustrations
Like many other aspects of PPC, this is maddeningly unreliable. I've been to several gatherings of PPC owners (if not actual PPC cultists) and it has really been a rare event that IR transfers work flawlessly the first time. I've actually witnessed attempts that repeatedly failed, and no Beaming could take place at all! With PalmOS, successful Beaming between PalmOS devices is easy and is the norm. Failure is rare.

I don't know about others, but I don't beam much. I have transferred some contacts from my iPAQ 3870 to my old (now my wife's) iPAQ 3650, and it wasn't that bad.

From what I've heard, Palm owners may beam more, though.

2) Poor Screen Mapping
Tap-and-Hold (TnH) is a really nice feature but there's no way to set a delay before it kicks in -- and it occurs when and where it shouldn't. I've had TnH come to life when I'm trying to grab the slider -- why wasn't that area of the screen mapped off-limits? What TnH options exist over there? None! I've had it pop up when all I'm trying to do is select some words (more on this, next), requiring me to lift the stylus and begin again. What a frustrating waste of time! If I could set it to delay for just one or two more seconds within certain programs -- but no, that can't be done. There is no such option available.

This is dead wrong. If by "slider", Mike means scroll bars, I just tested this on my iPAQ 3870, and I get no tap-and-hold menus on scroll bars. I would have guessed that his screen was just miscalibrated, although he denied that in a previous post.

That said, perhaps it would be nice for Microsoft to include a setting in the Screen settings applet that allowed specifying the delay for tap-and-hold to kick in. Maybe there's even a registry hack that could control this timing (I haven't seen one), but that wouldn't be the ideal solution, of course. I haven't really had any problems with the current value, though.

3) Selecting Text is Hell!!!
Yes, that deserves three !s, as you will see. This item requires audience participation -- I've been shocked and awed to learn that not every PalmOS device owner knows of this feature.

1) Open Memo Pad.
2) Create a New Memo.
3) Enter this sentence of four words: These are four words.
4) Now, I want you to double-tap on the word "are" to select it -- but do not lift your stylus after the second tap.
5) Now, again without lifting your stylus, slowly slide towards the word "These." Well before you even reach the "e," the entire word "These" should be selected.
6) Now, again without lifting your stylus, slowly slide back over the word "are" and towards "four" and then towards "words." If you did it correctly, those entire words should be selected.

Isn't this how text-handling on any PDA should work -- simply double-tap/drag? With PPC, that doesn't work at all! You have to slideslideslide the stylus across letters, not only praying that you selected what you intended (you usually don't) -- but also hoping that the damned Tap-and-Hold prompt doesn't pop up to interrupt!

No, that's not how text-handling on every PDA should work; it's just how it works on the Palm, and what the author is used to. It's certainly not how text selection works in Windows, which is what the Pocket PC is supposed to emulate, nor is it how selection on the Mac works (as far as I remember).

Some Windows programs automically select words, but none that I know of allow you to move left and right of the initial cursor location and keep text on both sides selected.

Speaking of automatically selecting entire words, I hate programs that have this on by default. I don't want the computer trying to guess my intentions. I don't have a problem with allowing automatic word selection for those who like it, but I don't think it should be enabled by default.

Yes, I am a Pocket PC fan, but I'm a realistic one; I know that the Pocket PC OS isn't perfect. And, while I've never really used a Palm, I don't have anything against the Palm OS or its users; I think people should use what works for them, be it Pocket PC or Palm, or Windows, Mac or Linux.

If you want to see why I chose Windows CE over Palm, check out my Windows CE history.
http://www.svpocketpc.com/#HISTORY

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 9:52:29 AM #
>>>Some Windows programs automically select words, but none that I know of allow you to move left and right of the initial cursor location and keep text on both sides selected.

Nit. Picked.

>>>Speaking of automatically selecting entire words, I hate programs that have this on by default. I don't want the computer trying to guess my intentions. I don't have a problem with allowing automatic word selection for those who like it, but I don't think it should be enabled by default.

-- oh, I'm all for that! It drives me batty that options galore aren't offered so we can customize the hell of out our devices.

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 9:59:51 AM #
Hmmm... I went on to read your history. I'm puzzled how you even *know* about PIC, since it isn't listed in the extensive website links you offer.

The (classic) iPaq to me has been and still is the ugliest PDA I've ever seen. And it's a brick and a half. But you like yours, so enjoy it!

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
Tungsten @ 7/26/2003 2:04:33 PM #
"The (classic) iPaq to me has been and still is the ugliest PDA I've ever seen."

I couldn't agree more. I never understood the rabid fanaticism behind the design and its sleeves. What's sad, though, is M$ forcing the iPaq button layout unto all manufacturers after its undeserved success.

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
helf @ 7/26/2003 2:13:28 PM #
Oh good. I thought I was all alone.. I couldnt agree more that the icrap is one of the ugliest pda's created. Every ppc user I have ever met seems to think they are "sexy" and what not... :|

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
Foo Fighter @ 7/26/2003 2:39:53 PM #
You can add my name to the list of iPaq haters. It is one of the all-time ugliest PDAs I have ever used. And I never could stand the slippery silver body, which is also reason why the Zire 71 isn't for me (that, and it doesn't have a flip cover). The HP 2215 and 1940 are very nice...but hardly revolutionary.

-------------------------------
My blog: www.pocketfactory.com
RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
Timothy Rapson @ 7/26/2003 7:58:47 PM #
I found the bare Ipaq 3,000-5,000 series nice looking and a perfect fit for my pockets and hands. To each his own I guess. I especially would have liked one of the models with the speaker at the top so I can listen to music with it in my pocket without earbuds.

Just me, though. I could enter text pretty fast and accurately on the 3.8 inch screen without screen protection (I only paid $60 for my mono Ipaq.)

If they put a camera at the top of a 3835, I might pay $200-300 for it today. That is like totally unlikely.

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
mikecane @ 7/27/2003 10:16:57 AM #
>>>No, that's not how text-handling on every PDA should work; it's just how it works on the Palm, and what the author is used to. It's certainly not how text selection works in Windows, which is what the Pocket PC is supposed to emulate, nor is it how selection on the Mac works (as far as I remember).

First, it turns out thius guy has posted the same message on another forum. Seems he has been Called by God (or by Bill; to him, the same thing) to make sure anyone who cites this piece gets The Other (Darker) Side of things.

Second, as for his comment above, he's full of it.

1) Not every language is written left-to-right.

2) Lefties would appreciate being able to double-tap/drag "backwards".

3) Using a desktop paradigm for PDAs is what MS has tried for three revs now -- and that's why PPC is so damned schizoid still.

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
Pony99CA @ 7/28/2003 4:00:04 AM #
MikeCane wrote:
Hmmm... I went on to read your history. I'm puzzled how you even *know* about PIC, since it isn't listed in the extensive website links you offer.

My site doesn't link to Google, Amazon or SlashDot, either, so I suppose you're puzzled how I heard of them, too.

Is it really a mystery? I visit plenty of Pocket PC sites (like pocketnow and Pocket PC Thoughts) and general PDA sites (like Brighthand). Would it surprise you to learn that some of them link to Palm Infocenter?

I don't link to this site because my site is dedicated to sites that cover Pocket PCs and other Windows CE platforms, which I suspect does not include Palm Infocenter. :-)

MikeCane wrote:
The (classic) iPaq to me has been and still is the ugliest PDA I've ever seen. And it's a brick and a half. But you like yours, so enjoy it!

Well, I'll avoid the troll, as that comment is completely irrelevant to what's being discussed, and just say that I always found the iPAQ rather sexy (if you can call a PDA "sexy"). I think the Dell Axim Pocket PC and low-end Zire are far uglier.

As for "bricks", people who use this term make me wonder if they've ever tried carrying a real brick. :-)

MikeCane wrote:
>>>No, that's not how text-handling on every PDA should work; it's just how it works on the Palm, and what the author is used to. It's certainly not how text selection works in Windows, which is what the Pocket PC is supposed to emulate, nor is it how selection on the Mac works (as far as I remember).

First, it turns out thius guy has posted the same message on another forum. Seems he has been Called by God (or by Bill; to him, the same thing) to make sure anyone who cites this piece gets The Other (Darker) Side of things.

Yes, I posted a similar reply at pocketnow (which is where I read about your critique). See http://discuss.pocketnow.com/showthread.php?threadid=13965 for the reference.

However, I figured you might not frequent a Pocket PC site, so I thought I'd also respond in a place where you might read it. If posting something twice is being "called by God", you need to reexamine your religion.

As for Bill (presumably Gates) being God, suffice it to say that I think a lot less of Bill than you seem to think I do. Try trolling somewhere else.

MikeCane wrote:
Second, as for his comment above, he's full of it.

1) Not every language is written left-to-right.

2) Lefties would appreciate being able to double-tap/drag "backwards".

3) Using a desktop paradigm for PDAs is what MS has tried for three revs now -- and that's why PPC is so damned schizoid still.

Well, somebody is full of it, but it's not me. Are you trying to win some kind of troll award? But let's examine your points.

First, are you saying Windows or the Mac support the text selection method you're advocating?

Second, I never mentioned anything about left-to-right selection or languages at all, so you're attacking a straw man, a logical fallacy. However, I fail to see how the Palm method of selection (if I understand the differences) would work any better with right-to-left languages than the Windows/Mac/Pocket PC method.

Third, you can tap and drag "backwards" on the Pocket PC. The difference is that your selection starts from the cursor location. If you drag to the right, all text to the right of the cursor is selected; if you drag to the left, all text to the left is selected.

It's really fairly simple to select multiple words, although perhaps not quite as simple as the Palm, as you do have to position the cursor either to the left of the first word you want to select or to the right of the last word want to select (assuming left-to-right word order) instead of double tapping.

In fact, it would make more sense for left-handers to drag to the right, because less of their hand would obscure the text they're trying to select! It's not like writing, where their hands get inky rubbing what they just wrote.

Also, to select a single word, you can just double tap it, just like you can double click a word in Windows.

Finally, as for being "schizoid", I don't get that. Text selection works similarly to the desktop, so people coming from a desktop won't have to shift paradigms. That's generally a good thing in user interface design.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
mikecane @ 7/28/2003 7:00:02 PM #
>>>Well, I'll avoid the troll, as that comment is completely irrelevant to what's being discussed, and just say that I always found the iPAQ rather sexy (if you can call a PDA "sexy"). I think the Dell Axim Pocket PC and low-end Zire are far uglier.

I read your History. It mentioned you love the iPaq. Its looks attracted you. You said to read your history, so bringing it up is fair game. Axim is ugly. White Zire is a toy. Feel better?

>>>Yes, I posted a similar reply at pocketnow (which is where I read about your critique).

This is zealotry: To post a reply in a place *other* than its source.

>>>Are you trying to win some kind of troll award?

You sure like that word. You must have it thrown at you a lot -- look at you, a PPC owner going out of his way to spread the PPC gospel among Palm owners who either don't want or hear it or -- like me -- have tried it and rejected it.

>>>First, are you saying Windows or the Mac support the text selection method you're advocating?

Why do you keep bringing in desktop OSes?! Do you use a stylus with your desktop?! What is this damned obsession you have?!

>>>It's really fairly simple to select multiple words, although perhaps not quite as simple as the Palm, as you do have to position the cursor either to the left of the first word you want to select or to the right of the last word want to select (assuming left-to-right word order) instead of double tapping.

You go ahead and drag drag drag all around the screen hoping the TnH prompt doesn't come up. I'll double-tap/drag and select *more words more accurately* than you ever will with PPC. How you can call the PPC method "simple" is beyond me; is simple-minded what you meant to say?

>>>Finally, as for being "schizoid", I don't get that.

I don't expect those in love with PPC to "get" any criticism leveled at that hulking beast. Schizoid: having to go to a frigging *entry screen* in Calendar to enter an appointment, as if this was a desktop app. Palm method (and we are comparing built-ins here): Tap on the line next to the starting time and start entering the appointment.

Now please go away. You don't see *me* going around preaching the gospel of Palm to you heathen on *your* sites, do you?

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
Pony99CA @ 7/29/2003 9:58:22 AM #
Mike Cane wrote:
>>>Well, I'll avoid the troll, as that comment is completely irrelevant to what's being discussed, and just say that I always found the iPAQ rather sexy (if you can call a PDA "sexy"). I think the Dell Axim Pocket PC and low-end Zire are far uglier.

I read your History. It mentioned you love the iPaq. Its looks attracted you. You said to read your history, so bringing it up is fair game.

Your reading skills leave much to be desired. I said "If you want to see why I chose Windows CE over Palm, check out my Windows CE history." I had two other Windows CE machines before the iPAQ, and I chose those over the Palm.

Also, I never said that I "love" my iPAQ. The only place I used "love" was when I said, "I still think the Handheld PCs were the coolest devices I've had, but I love being able to take my iPAQ everywhere."

As for looks, bringing up what you thought was just a troll. It's sad that you can't admit it. I didn't mention the looks in my postings here, and only said "Then I saw the iPAQ! The iPAQ was bright and sexy[...]" on my Web site in over 10 paragraphs about my history with Windows CE.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion that it's ugly, but there was no reason to mention it when nobody had brought it up -- except to be a troll.

Mike Cane wrote:
>>>Yes, I posted a similar reply at pocketnow (which is where I read about your critique).

This is zealotry: To post a reply in a place *other* than its source.

Zealotry? Did you even bother to read what I wrote? What's wrong with posting a reply on the Pocket PC site where I read about your article? Not every Pocket PC user there will want to visit a Palm site and slog through all of the comments here to see what I had to say.

In fact, if anything, coming here to try to discuss it with you would be a greater sign of zealotry. Maybe I was stupid, but I thought we might have a reasonable discussion about the points you brought up. Too bad you can't seem to handle that, and resort to ad hominem attacks and cracks about people's religion and manhood.

Mike Cane wrote:
>>>First, are you saying Windows or the Mac support the text selection method you're advocating?

Why do you keep bringing in desktop OSes?! Do you use a stylus with your desktop?! What is this damned obsession you have?!

What is this damned obtuseness you have? I've explained before why it's relevant. I'll say it slowly, just for you:

I T ' S B E C A U S E W I N D O W S C E W A S S U P P O S E D T O W O R K S I M I L A R L Y T O W I N D O W S.

Did that help? The selection paradigm works just like it does on the desktop, which is what most people are familiar with.

Mike Cane wrote:
>>>It's really fairly simple to select multiple words, although perhaps not quite as simple as the Palm, as you do have to position the cursor either to the left of the first word you want to select or to the right of the last word want to select (assuming left-to-right word order) instead of double tapping.

You go ahead and drag drag drag all around the screen hoping the TnH prompt doesn't come up. I'll double-tap/drag and select *more words more accurately* than you ever will with PPC.

I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying the Pocket PC paradigm is just as simple. The implementation may well be worse than Palm. I'd have to use a Palm to know, and even admitted that the Palm method sounded simpler.

I also pointed out that I don't like automatic word selection, which the Palm seems to do (if I correctly understood your description). So, in my case, I may not like the Palm method as much.

Mike Cane wrote:
How you can call the PPC method "simple" is beyond me; is simple-minded what you meant to say?

No, I was discussing text selection, not you. I will agree with one thing -- a lot seems to be beyond you.

Mike Cane wrote:
>>>Finally, as for being "schizoid", I don't get that.

I don't expect those in love with PPC to "get" any criticism leveled at that hulking beast. Schizoid: having to go to a frigging *entry screen* in Calendar to enter an appointment, as if this was a desktop app. Palm method (and we are comparing built-ins here): Tap on the line next to the starting time and start entering the appointment.

That sounds like a very simple way to create an appointment, and can probably create an appointment faster than I can on a Pocket PC. However, I like the power of the entry screen. I prefer power over simplicity in many things, so that's my bias.

As for "not getting" criticism, you're the one who seems to have trouble with any criticism. I recognize many flaws with the Pocket PC OS -- a stupid Connection Manager, alarms that occasionally don't sound when they should, and many more. As I said, I'm pretty agnostic about things -- use what works for you.

But if I think you said something incorrect about the Pocket PC, or there is a way to do something that you didn't know about, I don't think telling you that indicates an ability to see a flaw.

Mike Cane wrote:
Now please go away. You don't see *me* going around preaching the gospel of Palm to you heathen on *your* sites, do you?

Closing on a low note is such an effective strategy. I had submitted a link to your article to my favorite Pocket PC site, as I thought they might like to see why some Palm users didn't like the Pocket PC, and your article seemed fairly unbiased.

One of the admins wrote back and said:

Except that is one of the most poorly written rants I've ever seen. Cane is way to narcissistic to give any credibility to by linking to his stuff. Who copyrights a rant?

Given this admin's propensity to rant himself, I thought he was being short-sighted. After engaging in this discussion with you, I completely understand the admin's point.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
mikecane @ 7/29/2003 2:04:02 PM #
>>>Your reading skills leave much to be desired

*My* reading skills! You're an autist by comparison (and without comparison!)! Do you even read what you *write*?! Listen to this nonsense of yours:

>>>What's wrong with posting a reply on the Pocket PC site where I read about your article?

And you *still* don't see anything patently ludicrous in that statement, I bet!

>>>Maybe I was stupid

Wrong tense.

>>>I T ' S B E C A U S E W I N D O W S C E W A S S U P P O S E D T O W O R K S I M I L A R L Y T O W I N D O W S.

Oh, that's a nice example of Windows output right there.

>>>The selection paradigm works just like it does on the desktop, which is what most people are familiar with.

WinCE 1.0 used DOUBLE TAPS to launch apps. They got RID RID RID of that!! Even *MS* doesn't copy ALL the crap from their older crap! Why don't you go tell THEM to put it back to satisfy your OCD on the subject?!

>>> I'm saying the Pocket PC paradigm is just as simple.

I *know* what you're saying. And it's just as stupid the 3rd time as it was the first.

>>> I prefer power over simplicity in many things, so that's my bias.

You are just beyond the pale. They could add a screen for EACH damned item to enter and *you* would see such speed-bumping as "powerful." Incredible!

>>>As I said, I'm pretty agnostic about things

WHERE did you say that?! Should I go to pocketnow to see? You damned well did not share that sentiment here. And I fail to see such "agnosticism" at work in the exclusivity of PPC coverage at your website. My god. Tell the truth: you even failed *therapy*, didn't you?

>>>Except that is one of the most poorly written rants I've ever seen.

Oh, this is nice. I'm supposed to take seriously an unnamed person. And someone whose private correspondence you've just *violated*? Sounds like you two were made for each other: Dumb and Dumber!

I never expected *any* PPC sites to link to the article, period. Such cultism is pure and self-absorbed and allows for no outside criticism (and hartdly any *inside* criticism). However, had I written a "Why I'm Buying a Pocket PC and Leaving Palm," all of the cretins who suck up to Ba'al Gates and Steve Ba'almer would've tripped over themselves to link to it -- and *every* reader of this site *knows* that. Now *go away*. Go back to your schizoid OS and "powerful" bad design and leave us alone.

But: just make sure you slink back here to eat your words when MS "decides" that double-tap/drag actually "belonged" in PPC after all but was "mistakenly left out."

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
bigfoot @ 7/29/2003 8:20:21 PM #
I find it interesting that the first thing you get at Pony99CA's web page is a plea for money.

Cheers,

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
Pony99CA @ 7/30/2003 2:20:38 AM #
Mike Cane wrote:


>>>As I said, I'm pretty agnostic about things


WHERE did you say that?! Should I go to pocketnow to see? You damned well did not share that sentiment here. And I fail to see such "agnosticism" at work in the exclusivity of PPC coverage at your website.

You really aren't paying attention, are you? My first post in this section said:

Yes, I am a Pocket PC fan, but I'm a realistic one; I know that the Pocket PC OS isn't perfect. And, while I've never really used a Palm, I don't have anything against the Palm OS or its users; I think people should use what works for them, be it Pocket PC or Palm, or Windows, Mac or Linux.

I didn't use the word "agnostic", which probably confused someone who can't get a point unless it's explicitly spelled out for him.

As for my site, I only use Windows CE devices, so that's all my site covers. That doesn't mean I insult users of other systems like you seem to get off on.

Mike Cane wrote:


My god. Tell the truth: you even failed *therapy*, didn't you?

Coming from somebody who obviously failed an I.Q. test for failing to spell "I.Q.", that's laughable.

Mike Cane wrote:


Sounds like you two were made for each other: Dumb and Dumber!

I guess that makes you Dumberer (so dumb you didn't see that coming).

Mike Cane wrote:


I never expected *any* PPC sites to link to the article, period. Such cultism is pure and self-absorbed and allows for no outside criticism (and hartdly any *inside* criticism).

You've described your cultism admirably. At least pocketnow had the balls to link to your article and admit some of it made sense. You, having none, can't even take reasoned criticism. If you visited any Pocket PC sites, you'd see plenty of criticism of the Pocket PC OS.

Worse, you're a hypocritical cultist -- one who calls others cultists, insulting those not in his cult and telling them to go away.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
Pony99CA @ 7/30/2003 3:18:03 AM #
bigfoot wrote:


I find it interesting that the first thing you get at Pony99CA's web page is a plea for money.


Really? Do you find it interesting that the first thing you get here is a banner ad? Do you find it interesting there are ads scattered over the page?

My site has a donation button and an ad tucked on the right of the page. I've put a lot of time into compiling and maintaining the site, so what's wrong with asking for donations if people like it?

If that's all you can find to complain about on my site, I think that means I've done a pretty good job.

Steve


Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
bigfoot @ 7/30/2003 8:42:15 AM #
Not complaining, just noting a fact. I find commerical banners everywhere, so what.

I actually thought your site was rather well done.

Cheers,

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
Pony99CA @ 7/31/2003 1:01:26 AM #
bigfoot wrote:


Not complaining, just noting a fact. I find commerical banners everywhere, so what.

I actually thought your site was rather well done.


Thanks, I appreciate that. Believe me, I'd prefer not having donation buttons and ads, but, in these times, every dollar helps.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
mikecane @ 8/2/2003 9:08:28 AM #
>>>but, in these times, every dollar helps.

It's easy to see why you can't get or keep a job.

RE: A Pocket PC Rebuttal
jkendrick @ 7/29/2004 10:27:14 AM #
Mike, as much as I've enjoyed verbally sparring with you on the Brighthand Toshiba e800 forum over the past 6 months or so (Mike wanted one of these so badly he was perennially frustrated) I have to step in and say that personal attacks are crossing a credibility line.

What makes this site and every other enthusiast site thrive is the intelligent discussion and debate over the merits of different platforms and different capabilities that PDAs bring to the table. Not agreeing with someone is a horrible excuse to resort to the childish banter you're displaying here. I like you Mike, and find useful discussion from your postings no matter where they are, but this sort of thing sort of offsets that.

For those not aware Mike spent months badgering Toshiba e800 owners about every minute detail about that device. His own postings show he was in computer stores daily checking out the e800. He even built a SD card with ResFix (or MyVGA, I can't recall) and other utilities so he could play with the display units in true VGA. In the end he just couldn't come up with the bucks for it.

Like I said, I like your insights, Mike, but you get tiring at times.

jk
...using mobile devices since they weighed 30 lbs.
www.jkontherun.com

PDAs are toys?

Jacques T @ 7/26/2003 8:48:18 AM #
Dear Foo Fighter, you should not return your T2. It is much more than a toy. Here is what I love about mine... 1) 1 tap access to fav programs w/ 5Nav Launcher. 2) A super bright transflective screen. 3) 32MB/unlimited ram w/ PowerRun (which runs programs straight from card). 3) MP3s 4) DivX movies (perfect 29.97fps 160x120) w/ mmplayer (in beta). 4) Datebook, Todo and Contacts that I use like 50 times per day. 5) Excel sheets anywhere (I track my calories that way). 6) Books in bed. 7)Calculator. 8)Card, arcade (car racing and Sonic) and mind games (chess). 9) Jot so I don't open slider.

My TT2 keeps me organized and on time. I rarely forget anything in my life. If it crashes, the reset is easy, fast and clean. The sync is worry free and easy. The form factor is tiny and fits nicely in a pocket. The T1 and now the T2 are the best PDAs ever built. It brings the power of the computer mind with you anywhere. Everything is fast and easy to get to.
Foo Fighter, keep your Tungsten 2, you just need to know which software to use. Honestly, OS 5 models with 144 mhz or faster are simply far superior to any PPC hardware or software.

Sincerely, Jacques T.


RE: PDAs are toys?
Jacques T @ 7/26/2003 9:15:43 AM #
oh yes Foo Fighter ... I almost forgot... the audio on the Tungsten 1 or 2 is very loud. You must simply use a good pair of sensitive headphones. I use a clip on pair with volume control bought at Radio Shack. Maxing the audio is actually too loud for my ears now.

RE: PDAs are toys?
ephemeralb @ 7/26/2003 11:14:14 AM #
"DivX movies (perfect 29.97fps 160x120) "

you are joking right? at that pixel size on T2 screen it'll be less than an inch across.

RE: PDAs are toys?
Jacques T @ 7/26/2003 11:17:10 AM #
MMplayer plays 160x120 movies at fullscreen by auto stretching it. Its pretty good! :P

Also you can play 320x240 @ 15 fps or 240x180. The program is still VERY beta but already it plays fullscreen DivX w/ MP3, maintains audio synch and has a REW FW slider. And brightness, contrast controls.

RE: PDAs are toys?
hotpaw4 @ 7/27/2003 3:44:03 PM #
It's certainly nice what you get in a "toy" these days. A Tungsten C can crunch numbers faster than the first multimillion dollar supercomputer, the CDC6600. A T|C has a CPU clock rate 5 times faster than the first Cray-1 supercomputer, and 8 times more RAM. The built-in networking is many times faster than the first Cisco routers.

The N64 and PS2 were also nearly supercomputers when they were first introduced. Toys rule!

A traitor among us(me)??? ppc vs palm

palmgator @ 7/26/2003 11:11:37 AM #
Mike canes comments are perfectly timed for me and I appreciate them very much.

I am a long time palm OS guy, I have owned all but a tt, I even teach people how to us it, and low and behold my Dad just gave me an IPAQ 3955.and I am testing it out.

So....I have spent the last few days trying to decide if I am going to buy the T2 ( I have been checking PIC every few hours to fiqure out when I can go jump on one at best buy) or see what I think about the ipaq.

Comments:

1. I own an ipaq because my father, a retired Usaf Colonel, who has two of his own web sites and is very technically savvy...Never used it. Which is interesting because he is the biggest gadget freak around, So he just gave it to me....Hmmm. Would he have given me his Palm if he had one?

2. I spent three hours on the phone with him explaining how I would be able to get varius functions to work once I mastered them or once I installed this or that. hell, My students master the palm datebook and calendar and 20 minutes and these are 50-60 year old housewife realtors.

3. yes the Ipaq has some cool gadgets, multimedia and such. I will see if I ever use them

4. I love the build quality and design of the Ipaq.
I touch every palm OS device every day and I would say it is superior to all exept and this is important..the original V series palm. which trumps the ipaq for slim design , holdability and sheer genius of the slider/pen holder on either side (please bring this back jeff with the t2 innards)

4. Ipaq beaming sucks, I have played with every aspect of the beaming. palm wins this one! (my students who are realtors, can walk into any Real estate office glance back at the printers look and see if there is an ir port and if so, print out info. (with an ipaq they get chinese gooblydy gook)(dont tell me about print boy and the rest of the programs this should just work!) Mobile and adatable...works for me

5. Date book - I need to link people to tasks to calendar events. both have problems here. Agendus solves it for the palm, still looking for the ppc solution that works as well.

6.time and date stamp. I need it. palm has both, ppc has date stamp. I would say the TNH date stamp works better(i find the slash updown short cut function a little unreliable), but its missing the time. I call it a tie.

7. third party software - palm has more , but ppc probably has all I need.

8. Text input. I like Jot (don't shoot me) PPC has graffiti/block recognizer,key board and transcriber and then a separate writing mode. can they throw a few more in. please tell me if I am wrong but the keyboard has no space bar so, you have to tap over to the numbers screen or to block recognizer to create a space. None of them seem good. I find myself bouncing from keyboard to block recognizer to writing just to write a four word note.

And yes selecting text is hell on the ppc.

9. memory usage. Palm wins. I teach palm usage using a Paln V with 2mbs of ram, I leave it in the classroomand it looks old so no one will steal it. I have the Multiple listing program from our town, the bible and avant go on it. Also a ton of contact. it operates at max memory, but I like to show the students that they can do a lot with a little with a palm (most of my students have m515's but thats another subject.)

10. plastic cover: I have lost two t2 covers in my classroom. what the heck were they thinkin'. the ipaq cover is connected. case makers are beffudled at what to do with a palm that gets bigger (damn slider again)
bring back a v shape!

11. Slider: I love a small form factor/I hate the slider. My theory is that one of the industrial designers who sold palm on the slider developed "slidefree" ...Clever guy!

12: price we complain aout palm prices, Go out and price the ipaqs($ouch$)the nice thing about palm is you can find one to match your budget. the t2 is a bargain next to the new ipaqs

Final: the PPC is very nice. And I will keep testing it
But, I see a t2 in my near future. For me it is all
about usability and interface.My palm( and my students') is a real tool it gets used hard and long every day (can you say battery life) It needs to be reliable, stable , and easy to use.

remember. we area all gadgetheads. the device that wins the market will bring the most none users into the fold. I got my ppc because my Dad gave up on it


Training sales and real estate professionals on effective palm use!

RE: A traitor among us(me)??? ppc vs palm
mikecane @ 7/26/2003 3:18:31 PM #
Enjoyed your comments. Thanks.

RE: A traitor among us(me)??? ppc vs palm
Pony99CA @ 7/28/2003 5:04:39 AM #
PalmGator wrote:
6.time and date stamp. I need it. palm has both, ppc has date stamp. I would say the TNH date stamp works better(i find the slash updown short cut function a little unreliable), but its missing the time. I call it a tie.

Where exactly are you talking about that only has the date stamp. Most places in the Pocket PC have both date and time stamps.

PalmGator wrote:
8. Text input. [...] please tell me if I am wrong but the keyboard has no space bar so, you have to tap over to the numbers screen or to block recognizer to create a space.

The virtual keyboard has a space bar. It's the large white box with no text in it at the bottom center of the keyboard.

If your keyboard doesn't have one, maybe someone installed another keyboard (although I can't imagine a keyboard without a space bar).

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: A traitor among us(me)??? ppc vs palm
palmgator @ 7/28/2003 10:01:11 AM #
Pony, thanks for your feedback. I fixed the keyboard issue, it seemed to be an alignment issue. I couldnt believe it either but I thought they head left the space funtion to a key to a stylus stroke.

but if you know how to do a date/time stamp with a ppc please tell me.

Training sales and real estate professionals on effective palm use!

RE: A traitor among us(me)??? ppc vs palm
grumpyelf @ 7/28/2003 11:02:07 PM #
tap hold on any empty space will bring up a menu with date stamp command. For time stamp you will need extra utility, such as copy text.
RE: A traitor among us(me)??? ppc vs palm
Pony99CA @ 7/29/2003 9:58:39 AM #
PalmGator wrote:
if you know how to do a date/time stamp with a ppc please tell me.

Where do you want one? Displaying on the title bar, in a task, in a document, on files, etc.? There are many places that date and time stamps can be displayed, so if you tell me exactly where you didn't get one, I can try to help.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: A traitor among us(me)??? ppc vs palm
palmgator @ 7/29/2003 10:02:13 AM #
Is "copytext" the actual name of a utility, or is there another way to do a date stamp???

Training sales and real estate professionals on effective palm use!
time stamp
palmgator @ 7/29/2003 9:00:05 PM #
thank you pony for your reply I visited your site. Its got some great resources there on my PC:

I need the ability to make time stamps in the notes function of the contacts and task area. this is important for me a dealing with various contracts.

I know I can press down the stylus and make a date stamp, can I also make a simular date,time stamp.

Training sales and real estate professionals on effective palm use!

RE: A traitor among us(me)??? ppc vs palm
grumpyelf @ 7/29/2003 10:51:17 PM #
RE: CopyText
Pony99CA @ 7/31/2003 1:12:05 AM #
grumpyelf wrote:


http://www.biohazardsoftware.com/copytextpro.htm


If you want a freeware solution, there's an earlier version of CopyText available at many sites. Here's one:

http://www.ppc4all.com/appdetail.php?id=606

Steve


Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

should have been titled -"Why I HAVEN'T bought a Pocket PC."

Gekko @ 7/26/2003 9:51:29 PM #

never say never - you may buy one just yet. msft will keep improving ppc while palmos continues to stagnate. eventually, msft will win and palm will be relegated to a small niche player a la apple with ~5% market share.



RE: should have been titled -
Jacques T @ 7/26/2003 11:44:33 PM #
Palm has made huge innovations with the release of OS 5 and the Tungsten line. Their PDAs now surpass all PPCs in terms of usability, practicality, productivity, ease of use, multimedia (mp3 and movies), games, cost, availability, fashionability, compactness, etc. I totally disagree with your claim that Palm is stagnant. The total opposite is true.

RE: should have been titled -
Jacques T @ 7/26/2003 11:51:43 PM #
Oh, and I challenge you to tell me 1 thing that any PPC can do better than a Tungsten T2, W or C. I can list you a whole bunch that Palm OS 5 does better than PPC.

RE: should have been titled -
mikecane @ 7/27/2003 10:21:26 AM #
>>>never say never

Never say that the *only* choices will *always* be Palm or PPC.

As for which one will be around longer... let's see how you whine in three years when MS drops PPC because, as they'll put it, "We've incorporated all of its functionality into Smartphone." Yeah, MS will keep supporting the *niche market* of PPC...

Meanwhile, I'll still be able to get a *real PDA* running PalmOS...

RE: should have been titled -
Timothy Rapson @ 7/27/2003 8:54:01 PM #
I can tell you what the PPC can do better.

Get a PPC and a copy of Resco Picture Viewer.

Get a PPC and a copy of TextMaker.

Get a PPC and a copy of PocketArtist, PocketSketch, PocketPaint, or Ipaint. There is no paint program on Palm OS that is even close to any of them.

As for all the rest, I am still disappointed overall in my Zayo. With 64 MEG it tells me TextMaker can't load a 1 meg document that opens with any of my desktop word processors and warns me that memory (with 25 available when checked in Memory Manager) is low! It is like standing outside the bathroom when a teenage girl is getting ready for the prom! What in the world is going on in there! The same thing happend with a 400k map jpg file I tried to open in SPB Picture Viewer/Optimizer! Resco opened the file just fine. And thumbnails pop open and edit like a dream. It does even more than I hoped. Very nice.

You can't do this stuff on a Palm of any sort. The software is simply not there.

RE: should have been titled -
grumpyelf @ 7/27/2003 9:17:44 PM #
It sounds like you have memory leak.
RE: should have been titled -
mikecane @ 7/28/2003 7:12:50 PM #
>>> I can tell you what the PPC can do better.

-- you left out two important words: RIGHT NOW.

Do you really expect *every* PPC developer to stick to PPC only? They'd be fools to ignore the larger PalmOS market share. Especially once Palm's 320x480-screened TT3 comes out.

What you said about PPC reminds me of the arguments Mac people used to make against Windows. Where are those arguments today?

RE: should have been titled -
grumpyelf @ 7/28/2003 10:58:57 PM #
"RIGHT NOW", I think is a little too insisting in light of Textmaker for Palm and T3 being used in article above.
RE: should have been titled -
mikecane @ 7/29/2003 2:26:09 PM #
Perhaps. Would you prefer the next six months? The next year?

How about when there's software parity? Then *he* can't make such statements at all.

RE: should have been titled -
helf @ 7/31/2003 11:25:20 AM #
palm OS stagnating and ppc isnt.. wtf?


Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm

Chrix @ 7/27/2003 9:13:15 PM #
Here are my 3 personal reasons why I won't be buying a Palm today:

1) Starting page interface

What's the first thing I see when I first power on a Palm? A page full of icons similar to the Programs folder of a Pocket PC!! How useful is it to have an interface like that? Where are all the important information that I need to look at in one glance such as inbox, appointments, next appointment, tasks, etc? If I had a Palm, I would have to open the calendar program to check my appointments for the day. How convenient, more taps!! The cool thing about a Pocket PC, not only can one see important info at one glance, but also get to admire the background wallpaper. Try that with a Palm!

2) No folder structure

Palm boasts of having the best PIM in the market, which is good to keep it's users life organized. But how does Palm fare doing its own housekeeping? No windows like explorer options, no folders. If I've got a couple of files in different formats but share the same topic, how do I keep it in one place? It's strewn all over the place in a Palm, talk about getting organized and ease of use!! And a Palm user gets one of those quirky *.prc type of files which comes installed with a program, and under which appd does a *.prc fall under? Also no uninstall software feature, which makes uninstalling programs in Palm a messy thing.

Hotsync may look like an easy thing to do, however, due to the way Palm files are "organized", a Palm user can't just put in and extract just a single file with ease from the PDA to the desktop and vice versa. Palm users have to shebang the whole thing to a desktop. ActiveSync users on the other hand, are able to pick and choose any file to and from the PDA without having to sync everything if they choose not to. Now, that's ease of use!! And becoz of the Palm O/S structure, one cannot save mp3 or video files in the main memory.

3) It's the Multimedia!!

First there was this Zen of Palm philosophy, they tell you users don't need mp3, don't need color screen, don't need sound... and what happens today? We get a PPC wannabe!! Multimedia is a strong attraction which has seen Pocket PC's market share increase! Palm's multimedia is still not up to scratch compared to Pocket PC - mono sound, quirky kinoma player.... It's been playing catchup, becoz the Palm O/s is not designed for multimedia, so try harder O/S 6. It's multimedia that gives more depth and richness to a PDA. Sony Clie recognized this, but unfortunately it's on the wrong platform.

I also disagree with the statement that Pocket PC users are using their device as a paper weight when the fun wears off. Bear in mind that the Pocket PC is heavily used by corporate users, PPC's presence in the corporate world is stronger than Palm's.

Finally, it's only a matter of time before Palm realizes the usefulness of a removeable battery. Like Mac users, Palm is for users who are too dumb to use Windows!!


RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
mikecane @ 7/28/2003 7:16:13 PM #
Another pathetic PPC troll zealot comes out of the woodwork to defend his shallow manhood:

>>>What's the first thing I see when I first power on a Palm? A page full of icons similar to the Programs folder of a Pocket PC!!

-- well, that's *you*, dummy. There are *five* ways of powering up a Palm such as the Tungsten T and *how* you do it will depend on what you get: Datebook, Addresses, To Do, Memo Pad/NotePad, or Launcher.

>>>A page full of icons similar to the Programs folder of a Pocket PC!!

-- no, it's the other way around. PPC gives you a screen full of icons similar to PalmOS. PalmOS was out first!

>>>2) No folder structure

-- I've complained about this myself. See above.

>>>Also no uninstall software feature, which makes uninstalling programs in Palm a messy thing.

-- you've obviously *never* used a PalmOs device. Launcher->Menu->App->Delete. Which is a hell of a lot more sensible and intuitive than closing running programs under default PPC. (Settings->Memory->Running Programs->Stop All, if I recall the details correctly.)

>>>First there was this Zen of Palm philosophy, they tell you users don't need mp3, don't need color screen, don't need sound... and what happens today? We get a PPC wannabe!!

-- "they" were a revolving door of imbeciles, from Kessler through Yankowski. They are gone.

>>>We get a PPC wannabe!!

-- but PPC started as a Palm wannabe. Wait -- it still *is*.

>>>It's multimedia that gives more depth and richness to a PDA.

-- yeah, I just can't wait for the day when I can attach a video to a scheduled appointment. Duh. Multimedia is *icing*. PalmOS already has the cake. PPC just has ... icing.

>>>Bear in mind that the Pocket PC is heavily used by corporate users, PPC's presence in the corporate world is stronger than Palm's.

-- yeah, which means the devices stop being used after 5PM. Unless they want to show the guys at the bar the latest porn video they've downloaded for WMP.

>>>Like Mac users, Palm is for users who are too dumb to use Windows!!

-- yeah, MacOS and PalmOS are just so goddammed dumb. *That's* why Ba'al Gates ripped off both. Microsoft's ad motto may be, "Where do you want to go today," but their corporate motto all along has been, "What can we steal today?"

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
helf @ 7/28/2003 11:11:30 PM #
>>>Like Mac users, Palm is for users who are too dumb to use Windows!!


ROFLMAO!

Oh that is too funny.

Oh, and deleting apps off a palm is so much easier. Because for one thing, a program and its databases have the same creator ID (usually) so when you delete the main app the databases go with it *gasp!*. Half the time crap gets left on your ppc after you uninstall an app. I know from person experience,so don't start flaming me.

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
helf @ 7/28/2003 11:15:06 PM #
*personal

ugh, I'm to tired to type correctly.

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Pony99CA @ 7/29/2003 10:01:40 AM #
Mike Cane wrote:
Another pathetic PPC troll zealot comes out of the woodwork to defend his shallow manhood:

Ad hominem attacks are always so manly.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
mikecane @ 7/29/2003 2:27:43 PM #
Oh stop it. That's all the Latin you know. Er, you *did* know that was Latin, didn't you?

And he clearly *is* a dummy. Charging in here as if he knows something -- only to be shown he knows virtually nothing.

Just what I expect from PPC zealots.

Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm

Chrix @ 7/27/2003 9:13:15 PM #
Here are my 3 personal reasons why I won't be buying a Palm today:

1) Starting page interface

What's the first thing I see when I first power on a Palm? A page full of icons similar to the Programs folder of a Pocket PC!! How useful is it to have an interface like that? Where are all the important information that I need to look at in one glance such as inbox, appointments, next appointment, tasks, etc? If I had a Palm, I would have to open the calendar program to check my appointments for the day. How convenient, more taps!! The cool thing about a Pocket PC, not only can one see important info at one glance, but also get to admire the background wallpaper. Try that with a Palm!

2) No folder structure

Palm boasts of having the best PIM in the market, which is good to keep it's users life organized. But how does Palm fare doing its own housekeeping? No windows like explorer options, no folders. If I've got a couple of files in different formats but share the same topic, how do I keep it in one place? It's strewn all over the place in a Palm, talk about getting organized and ease of use!! And a Palm user gets one of those quirky *.prc type of files which comes installed with a program, and under which appd does a *.prc fall under? Also no uninstall software feature, which makes uninstalling programs in Palm a messy thing.

Hotsync may look like an easy thing to do, however, due to the way Palm files are "organized", a Palm user can't just put in and extract just a single file with ease from the PDA to the desktop and vice versa. Palm users have to shebang the whole thing to a desktop. ActiveSync users on the other hand, are able to pick and choose any file to and from the PDA without having to sync everything if they choose not to. Now, that's ease of use!! And becoz of the Palm O/S structure, one cannot save mp3 or video files in the main memory.

3) It's the Multimedia!!

First there was this Zen of Palm philosophy, they tell you users don't need mp3, don't need color screen, don't need sound... and what happens today? We get a PPC wannabe!! Multimedia is a strong attraction which has seen Pocket PC's market share increase! Palm's multimedia is still not up to scratch compared to Pocket PC - mono sound, quirky kinoma player.... It's been playing catchup, becoz the Palm O/s is not designed for multimedia, so try harder O/S 6. It's multimedia that gives more depth and richness to a PDA. Sony Clie recognized this, but unfortunately it's on the wrong platform.

I also disagree with the statement that Pocket PC users are using their device as a paper weight when the fun wears off. Bear in mind that the Pocket PC is heavily used by corporate users, PPC's presence in the corporate world is stronger than Palm's.

Finally, it's only a matter of time before Palm realizes the usefulness of a removeable battery. Like Mac users, Palm is for users who are too dumb to use Windows!!

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Chrix @ 7/27/2003 9:48:08 PM #
One last point I forgot to add about the multimedia part. Becoz the Palm OS is not designed for multimedia, one cannot attach voice notes to PIM apps. This gives PPC more options to input data. If a user is on the run, they can just attach a voice mail to say calendar or task or notepad. Try that with a Palm!! Sigh, guess have to use that quirky Grafitti 2...
RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Chrix @ 7/27/2003 10:17:46 PM #
Palm users, try saving your important data and do a hard reset and see if you can still save any!! With a PPC, you get a special folder which saves critical files in ROM (yes, ROM!) so that these data will not lose during a hard reset. Try that with a Palm!! Also try playing DivX quality files on a Palm!!
RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
The Ugly Truth @ 7/27/2003 10:55:18 PM #
Your posts sound suspiciously like those from someone living under a bridge. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, minimal customization with third party apps gives Palms functionality that PPC can't touch. Not to mention the speed and stability advantages Palm OS currently already has over PPC.

1) Starting page interface

What's the first thing I see when I first power on a Palm? A page full of icons similar to the Programs folder of a Pocket PC!! How useful is it to have an interface like that? Where are all the important information that I need to look at in one glance such as inbox, appointments, next appointment, tasks, etc? If I had a Palm, I would have to open the calendar program to check my appointments for the day. How convenient, more taps!! The cool thing about a Pocket PC, not only can one see important info at one glance, but also get to admire the background wallpaper. Try that with a Palm!

Wassup gives Palms the Outlook Today view you seem to crave. $6.95

2) No folder structure

Palm boasts of having the best PIM in the market, which is good to keep it's users life organized. But how does Palm fare doing its own housekeeping? No windows like explorer options, no folders. If I've got a couple of files in different formats but share the same topic, how do I keep it in one place? It's strewn all over the place in a Palm, talk about getting organized and ease of use!! And a Palm user gets one of those quirky *.prc type of files which comes installed with a program, and under which appd does a *.prc fall under? Also no uninstall software feature, which makes uninstalling programs in Palm a messy thing.

Does the Palm file system really affect day to day use of a PDA? For almost all users, the answer is "No".

If apps are written properly, uninstalling them is actually quite simple and showcases how well designed the original Palm OS was. For the cleanest uninstalls, use Uninstall Manager. $14.95

Hotsync may look like an easy thing to do, however, due to the way Palm files are "organized", a Palm user can't just put in and extract just a single file with ease from the PDA to the desktop and vice versa. Palm users have to shebang the whole thing to a desktop. ActiveSync users on the other hand, are able to pick and choose any file to and from the PDA without having to sync everything if they choose not to. Now, that's ease of use!! And becoz of the Palm O/S structure, one cannot save mp3 or video files in the main memory.

PilotInstall solves the Desktop to PDA question. What single files are you needing to "extract" from your PDA? Memos etc. should be viewable for the Palm Desktop and most other important apps will have conduits directly to the desktop equivalent.

3) It's the Multimedia!!

First there was this Zen of Palm philosophy, they tell you users don't need mp3, don't need color screen, don't need sound... and what happens today? We get a PPC wannabe!! Multimedia is a strong attraction which has seen Pocket PC's market share increase! Palm's multimedia is still not up to scratch compared to Pocket PC - mono sound, quirky kinoma player.... It's been playing catchup, becoz the Palm O/s is not designed for multimedia, so try harder O/S 6. It's multimedia that gives more depth and richness to a PDA. Sony Clie recognized this, but unfortunately it's on the wrong platform.

Your argument might have held water a year or two ago, but not now. For years Palm used the Zen spin doctoring to cover up the fact they didn't have the hardware to do multimedia. But Sony and Palm both currently have models that do multimedia as well as - if not better than - PPC, including stereo sound.

Bear in mind that the Pocket PC is heavily used by corporate users, PPC's presence in the corporate world is stronger than Palm's.

That is incorrect. Palm also dominates in the business world.

Finally, it's only a matter of time before Palm realizes the usefulness of a removeable battery.

Initially, all Palms had removeable batteries. As PDAs (and cellphones) become disposeable commodity items, sealed batteries will likely become the norm.

One last point I forgot to add about the multimedia part. Becoz the Palm OS is not designed for multimedia, one cannot attach voice notes to PIM apps. This gives PPC more options to input data. If a user is on the run, they can just attach a voice mail to say calendar or task or notepad. Try that with a Palm!! Sigh, guess have to use that quirky Grafitti 2...

If that's the best you can come up with, PPC is in trouble...

Palm users, try saving your important data and do a hard reset and see if you can still save any!! With a PPC, you get a special folder which saves critical files in ROM (yes, ROM!) so that these data will not lose during a hard reset. Try that with a Palm!! Also try playing DivX quality files on a Palm!!

Most Palms now come with external media (SD and CF) slots that allow users to back up the entire RAM. There are also solutions for backing up to Flash memory.

Regarding Divx: http://mmplayer.com/

I'm going to cross the bridge now...

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Altema @ 7/27/2003 11:20:13 PM #
Hi Chrix, hope you are doing OK. Just wanted to point out a few things as someone who not only owns both platforms, but has also run an IT helpdesk for a corporation of 13,000. I'm curently a network engineer working with several other engineers who have either Palms or PPC's which we use to work together.

First off, everyone has a right to use whatever platform we choose, and we make our picks for differing reasons. It's a PDA, not a religion. If I woke up tomorrow and one platform or another did not exist, I'd make my adjustments and keep going. I would like to take the time and comment on some of your own comments, and hope you realize that some viewpoints are pretty common among users who cast a casual glance at either platform, and this forms the basis of some of their impressions.

"Where are all the important information"

Right at the fingertips via the hardbuttons... no stylus or tapping involved, and of course you can assign any application to any hardbutton. Matter of fact under Palm OS5, you can get into and out of any application without touching the screen or using the stylus.

"get to admire the background wallpaper. Try that with a Palm!"

Several packages available for that. I've tried a few and they really look cool, but add nothing in the way of functionality. If I know I'm going to be someplace where people will want to look at the various devices, I'll pull up a nice background and throw it on the screen. My fav is a beach with mountains in the background.

"No windows like explorer options, no folders."

Fits in with the KIS principal. I left off the second S because none of the PPC users I know are stupid. If you want folders, there's plenty of those on the expansion card, which as you know are next to dirt cheap for the smaller ones. For the OS, Palm OS keeps it all in one level, as does Mac OS, and as did ProDos, SOS, and BOS. The HFS is mandatory in a Windows environment, with the application and support files numbering from a few dozen to several hundred files for one program. Developers make good money selling apps which clean up this mess and track the orphaned files left behind even after doing a proper uninstall. Speaking of uninstall, on a Palm you delete the app. The OS removes the application files, resource databases, and preferences (the Palm OS equivalent of registry entries). There are a few programs which break the rules and do not ID their own files properly, but they are very rare.

"Palm users have to shebang the whole thing to a desktop. ActiveSync users on the other hand, are able to pick and choose any file to and from the PDA without having to sync everything if they choose not to."

A Palm hotsync on a stock T|T or T|C takes 5 seconds for "the whole thing". Individual file option are good for Activesync considering the slower transfer rate. I'll have to measure the difference, but my Palm always womps my PPC for similar size files. One of my friends at work was syncing the same file as I (we both wanted the file on our handhelds), but he gave up after 15 MINUTES of waitin on his iPaq. Yes, it was a massive file, but why did it work on the Palm in a few minutes?

"one cannot save mp3 or video files in the main memory."

Good point and something which they need to look at. Video files can go in RAM depending on which app you are using. MPEG and DIVX must be on the card. Of course, it's a little tough fitting a 192Mb video file in RAM on any handheld.

"Palm's multimedia is still not up to scratch compared to Pocket PC - mono sound, quirky kinoma player...."

Mono sound? Every Palm OS device out there with MP3 capability has stereo output except for the T|C. The audio output is very good, better than my portable MD players. I do pro audio on the side and plug right into the systems for sound checks. How does a Palm Pilot plugged into a 12,000 watt system sound? Excellent, most people are shocked when they find out the music source... right after they ask what CD I'm playing.

Mono sound for movies? Yep! I'm disappointed too, but that's the software and not a hardware limitation. Palm OS has 16 independent audio channels, and you can play an MP3 and a movie at the same time... weird, but it works. A useful situation?: MP3 in the car while using Navigator which gives spoken directions. As far as Kinoma being quirky, that has not been my experience. You just pick your device from the list, dump every multimedia file on your PC into the bin and hit enter. Everything comes out optimized for your handheld and can be loaded in RAM or to the card. Before we go on, I'd like to mention a funny little message that pops up when I throw a multimedia file on my PPC. It says "converting media". Cute, but kind of detracts from the 'everything is native' idea.

"I also disagree with the statement that Pocket PC users are using their device as a paper weight when the fun wears off."

As a blanket statement, I would have to agree with you. I know a Palm owner who turns his on a couple times a year just to see if it works. However, I also know a few PPC owners who never seem to carry their device around anymore. The shocker was our local PPC evangelist who, after sleeping with his handheld (*THAT* does not sound right!), now frequently leaves it behind.
To balance things out, I know a guy with an iPaq and a huge expansion pack (the package is SQUARE), who has it on for hours a day and seldom lets it out of his sight.

"PPC's presence in the corporate world is stronger than Palm's."

I'll have to look up the numbers, but as of a few months ago Palm's share of the corporate work was still dominant by a wide margin.

"Finally, it's only a matter of time before Palm realizes the usefulness of a removeable battery."

This was mandatory on early PPC models, and is a nice touch now that PPC battery life has improved. Little use on a device that seems to go on forever, but it depends on your model. My wife just got back from an 8 day seminar where she used her M515 extensive every day. It was still at 50% on the last day and she never turns her backlight off. Umm... I don't want to try that with my T|T, but then, she does not run MP3's or half hour videos like I do on mine!

"Like Mac users, Palm is for users who are too dumb to use Windows!! "

Ouch! That was cold! It has been my extensive experience with Windows, WinCE, and Pocket Windows which has made me appreciate Palm OS. I could turn that statement around, but it would not be professional.

PS: In regards to your other post about losing files, try this on a PPC. Create a memo, then hit any other hard button. Now do a reset and try to find your memo. Not good on a device which has to be reset to recover from landscape mode!



RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Altema @ 7/28/2003 12:56:10 AM #
Hey Ugly Truth, looks like we were working on the same thing!

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Chrix @ 7/28/2003 6:01:57 AM #
Dear Ugly Truth:

Thank you for enlightening me on the virtues of Palm. I have never doubted the efficiency of the O/S, but those were the inherent limitations that I find in a Palm which did not appeal to me. However, you have mentioned about 3rd party apps which can get around these inherent limitations. You mean I have to pay for these software, why can't i get it as it is in the O/S like Pocket Pc? Wouldn't that increase my cost of owning a PDA if I want those features that Palm cannot provide and which I find them to be essential to me?

Tell me, what third party apps do PPC users need in order to have Palm's features? Or do PPC users need them at all? Isn't it strange that it's Palm that's incorporating PPC's features rather than the other way round e.g. mp3 player, multimedia apps, multitasking in O/S 6 etc...?

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
helf @ 7/28/2003 8:51:22 AM #
*sigh*....

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
The Ugly Truth @ 7/28/2003 5:04:54 PM #
Tell me, what third party apps do PPC users need in order to have Palm's features?

Unfortunately, there are no third party apps that can make PPC as fast, stable or intuitive as Palm OS. On the other hand, there is now very little that PPC can do that at least a few Palm OS devices can't. If you look at things objectively - rather than from a troll's point of view - it's difficult to support the position that PPC is the better choice for most users in terms of OS or available programs. (On the other hand, I still feel that PPC hardware is priced much more reasonably than Palm OS hardware.)

Microsoft should be embarassed to see that Palm OS can actually sync better with Microsoft desktop apps than PPC does...

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
mikecane @ 7/28/2003 7:31:23 PM #
>>>Tell me, what third party apps do PPC users need in order to have Palm's features?

-- PPC owners *all* seem to want a third-party app to *close* their apps. Palm owners can trust their OS to take care of that sort of thing.

I see this guy posted twice. I wound up replying to his first post while the rest of you got his second post. Que sera sera...

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
grumpyelf @ 7/28/2003 10:54:14 PM #
"mikecane @ 7/28/2003 7:31:23 PM

>>>Tell me, what third party apps do PPC users need in order to have Palm's features?

-- PPC owners *all* seem to want a third-party app to *close* their apps. Palm owners can trust their OS to take care of that sort of thing."

That would be a presumption, since Palm OS does not have multi tasking capability. What PPC users ask is better control, not automatic or universal shut down when an app is not in the foreground. It would be very interesting to watch how OS 6.0 implement task management.

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Chrix @ 7/28/2003 11:12:03 PM #
Howzit going Mike, this is the troll who is trying to prove his manhood. This is also the same guy who watches porno in wmv format after 5.

The additional posting was unintentional, the webpage stopped loading when i tried to submit it for the first time, so it got sent the second time (unknowingly) after i refreshed the page. don't mean to take up space, so my apologies here.

Well you've had your say in your article, and i find it quite objective (coming from a troll!) as you've also pointed out the limitations of palm o/s. I've also had my say giving me reasons for not getting a palm o/s so as to give a better perspective of both o/s, though i may appear to be biased.

But for heaven's save, there's no need to get so cult like religious and personal about this. Like what Altema has said, it's only a PDA and not a religion. so if i wake up tomorrow and pocket pc somehow got

thumped by palm o/s ;P, i'll still be needing a PDA, it could be a Linux or a palm.

Notice in my posting that I have never doubted the strengths of the palm o/s which is zippy and its space saving efficiency. However, being a long time user of the windows, the ppc is only a natural extension of its desktop cousin. then comes the palm o/s which I do
not doubt is easy to use, but still I find it unfamilar. However, as i have pointed out earlier, palm needs 3rd party software to make it do what a ppc is now doing for FREE while "trolls" have no need to make their ppc behave or run like a palm.

Who doesn't want a good O/s that can do wonders? but despite the efficiency of palm, there are some trade offs, and it is these trade offs which i highlighted earlier that made me stick to ppc, at least for today. Why then has the market share of ppc been on the uptrend lately that has compelled palm to offer multimedia features like the zire, which is unthinkable a couple of years ago? In Asia Pacific, IDG survey showed that PPC has overtaken palm's market share.

I've been to a couple of palm forums and palm users seem to take delight bashing the PPC platform saying how bad it is, how unreliable it is etc etc. But what I'm curious to know is, why is the iPaq 5550 been selected to go to space and not the Palm Tungsten C or the Sharp Zaurus?

Is this some kind of a cruel joke so that astronauts get lost in space if their ppc freezes and cannot sync with the mothership or is this about big advertising dollars? Is the ppc platform so bad that it makes me want to switch to palm 5 today? Does NASA care to comment on this?

So loosen up mike, don't hafta get into a religious frenzy, you should be thanking this "troll" for offering constructive criticism, I'm not trying to sell any of you a pocket pc, just explaining my preference. Who wants to read a forum full of "yes" palm users?

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
helf @ 7/29/2003 9:40:17 AM #
Chrix.. Anyone that makes a statement like this one -> "Like Mac users, Palm is for users who are too dumb to use Windows!! " needs some serious help.

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
mikecane @ 7/29/2003 2:32:00 PM #
What happened to him? Did his medication kick in?! Or did someone else post under his username the second time? He comes in like a jerk and then tries to go all reasonable in his next post -- as if that was what he was in the beginning.

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Chrix @ 7/30/2003 3:36:59 AM #
Hi Mike, did i touch your nerve? It appears that your nerve doesn't seem to link to your brain. However, I believe such nerve can be found in orangutans and mongrels roaming in the streets ... looks like Mike deserves the Cane! ahhahahhahha

thanx for your compliments mike, and have a nice day!

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Chrix @ 7/30/2003 11:40:31 AM #
How are you Altema? Although our views take on opposite ends, I admire the way you responded to my post as it was done in a calm, rationale and professional manner, and I respect that. Coming from someone who has tried both the ppc and palm platform, your explanation is likely to hold more water. I wish there are more Palm users like you around in a forum like this, unlike that individual with an nderdeveloped pituary hormone we know who deserves the Cane ;-)

I'd like to offer an alternative view to one of your statement:

"Fits in with the KIS principal..... For the OS, Palm OS keeps it all in one level, as does Mac OS, and as did ProDos, SOS, and BOS."

While Palm (and other O/S) tries to keep things simple without appearing to be stupid, I hold the view that good file organization in a PDA is as essential as keeping a PDA user's life organized.

Imagine an office devoid of drawers, folders and cabinets. Imagine having your paperwork gets all stacked up in trays, or better still, seeing them
scattered on the desktop. How does one then cluster or bind papers sharing the same account in one place without a folder? Wouldn't that be a mess? Yes, we should strive to keep things simple, but not at the
expense of goodfile organization.

And now, some words for the big-baby-who-deserves-a-Cane:

"3) Selecting Text is Hell!!!
Yes, that deserves three !s, as you will see. This item requires audience participation -- I've been shocked and awed to learn that not every PalmOS device owner knows of this feature.

Isn't this how text-handling on any PDA should work -- simply double-tap/drag? With PPC, that doesn't work at all! You have to slideslideslide the stylus across letters, not only praying that you selected what you intended (you usually don't) -- but also hoping that
the damned Tap-and-Hold prompt doesn't pop up to interrupt!" - the Cane

Great mother of Chihuahua!! Just becoz PPC doesn't handle text the same way as a Palm, so users are going to say I'm not getting a ppc? Is this
even an issue at all? What's the big deal if PPC does it differently but gets the job done nevertheless? Even a retard can do this, so what's worst than a retard? When did the Cane's mind start to become a
midget? When Jeff Hawkins taught him how to write so that he can use the Grafitti for forums like this?

Allow me to digress briefly, speaking about the Grafitti which the Cane here speaks so lovingly of ... despite people saying how evil "Baal"
Gates and his Redmond team are, one thing I know for certain, Gates never tried to be a teacher like Jeff Hawkins. Imagine Palm having to teach users how to write so that they can use the Grafitti, something
so basic that users should have learned this in elementary school.

No such thing in PPC, the PPC Grafitti-equivalent "Block Recognizer" centers around what the user already know, and not the user having to
adapt to the way a machine writes. (Mr Bill of Redmond, if you are reading this, please give me some money, I don't mind Palm users getting right on this one!)


"yeah, I just can't wait for the day when I can attach a video to a scheduled appointment. Duh..." - the Cane

My answer is this: Why not? why not allow videos to be attached to any PIM app? Today, we are lready witnessing the integration of digital cameras in PDAs, the Zires (although it doesn't have a video recorder) and the Clies are good examples. If videos offer an additional but yet simple source of data input, then why not? Why bother writing? (HP, camp Redmond, are you listening?)

Oh I forgot, the Cane loves his Grafitti and he's not big on multimedia. bet he doesn't use the full potential of multimedia in his pda unless it's porn. Maybe the Cane should just stick to the stone age
palm m515. Even back then when mp3s and videos were not built-in in Palm as they are today, ppc was years ahead in the multimedia department. My one half year old ipaq 3850 still has enough multimedia juice to last me until today, but sadly, even today palm is still trying ... can't attach voice notes to PIM...or record voice in mp3....or play mpeg files without conversion....


"Had Jeff Hawkins not succeeded with the original Pilot, there *never would have been* a Pocket PC." - the Cane

Had it not been for Sony, Palm would never have multimedia like the Zire or Tungsten. And if not for the guys in Sony, Palm would still have a product suited for people living in caves today. And Palm would still be chanting the "Zen of Palm" mantra in some monastery up in the mountains ...

"PPC fanboys: go play with your toys. Or yourselves. Whatever keeps you busy and away from PalmOS sites." -the Cane


Boo-hoo. Grow up already! Go run to your mother and tell her some PPC boys came to your playground and played with your toys. And while you're at it, don't forget to ask her for the cane, u certainly deserve one!


P/S that's the trouble with technology today, not only does it allow files to be replicated easily, but it also allows someone like the Cane to emulate the behavior of a Neanderthal ;-)


RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Chrix @ 7/30/2003 12:22:45 PM #
And I forgot to add, guess who inspired Sony to include multimedia in the palm o/s? Jeff Hawkins? Mike Cane? ;-)
RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Chrix @ 7/30/2003 11:13:26 PM #
so the T2 is trying to look and behave like the ipaq eh? among others, this time with built in mp3 player and video player and as one report puts it: "blah, blah, blah ... with an additional focus on multimedia features"... guffaw, guffaw, tell me something new that the pocket pc world don't already have.

while palm is drooling over the T2, go check out Samsung's pocket pc MITs M400 which has - go drool on this one - mobile phone, TV, PC, digital camera, camcorder, navigator, 2 way radio and GPS all in one. I can already hear the palm guys saying, who needs this, who wants to watch TV on a handheld, blah, blah, blah, aw come on, grow up and try this on a Palm with yr 3rd party softwares.

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
helf @ 7/31/2003 11:28:21 AM #
ok. Let me get this straight. You are telling us all to grown up when in fact you are basically acting like some teenager saying "my dick is bigger than yours" at school? Lets see who really needs to grow up..

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
helf @ 7/31/2003 11:30:04 AM #
*grow... I really must work on my typing :)

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
helf @ 7/31/2003 11:31:39 AM #
I'm gonna mimick you for a sec and post several times in a row....

You are RIGHT! we DON'T want all of that. I would MUCH rather have a SMALL pda with decent battery life than one with tons of crap shoved into it. The T3 is bascially what I want but I don't liek the slider.The helix will probably be my next "gaming" device. It will replace my gba. But I will continue to use my handera 330 because it is MUCH more usefull. You are all gonna tell me I'm crazy because its only 33mhz,has 8megs of ram,no sdio,b/w,is big,can only play wav/au/midi files etc... but it does what I want it to do and I'm happy with it. =)

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
mikecane @ 8/2/2003 9:11:15 AM #
It's obvious that the buffoon here as Chrix is ska. Ignore him. His mother tried to. She didn't try hard enough.

RE: Why I Won't Be Buying a Palm
Riceboy @ 9/7/2003 10:22:15 PM #
As a long-time pocket pc user who converted to Palm, all I can say is this: all pocket pc's suffer from incompatibility issues due to the different processors only understanding different programming languages. For instance, many ppc2002 programs will not work well on ppc2003 such as Money. For the older pocket pc's, there are 3 different processors: sh3, mips, and arm and they each understood their own specific language and were unable to share the same exact programs sometimes.
For Palms, all software ever created work perfect with all os versions ever created.

Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.

Jacques T @ 7/27/2003 11:59:00 PM #
To Timothy Rapson,
OS5 has numerous paint, photo viewer & wordprocessor programs. See www.palmgear.com (MobilePaint, ACDsee, WordSmith, etc).

To Chrix,
OS5 combined with "5Nav Launcher" can tie & run 18 programs per hard key in ~1/5th the time of a PPC.
Palm has a file system in which programs store files their own way. Users don't waste their time browsing for files. If someone really wishes to make a folder, they use SyncWizard.

OS5 plays MP3. MMplayer plays fullscreen DivX 240x180@15fps or 160x120@30fps @150kbps. Kinoma plays 30fps 320x240. Very fast, smooth & enjoyable @1000kbps(~VCD). OS5 does this w/144mhz because it is not a CPU hog. PPC movies are inferior in quality and/or smoothness.

Fincally Chrix, I owned 2 iPAQs and the backup to ROM is slow. OS5 backs up ALL my programs & data on each sync in seconds! Restoration is as easy as 1. lay Palm on craddle. 2. press Hotsync. Also, 3rd party apps offer all kinds of backup alternatives and ROM management.

I used to be a big PPC fan. Fact is that OS5 is far superior to PPC. There is no way the market will sustain PPC growth at the expense of OS5. With time & experience, consumers will realize that their lives are complicated by PPC & simplified/improved by OS5.

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
grumpyelf @ 7/28/2003 12:35:58 AM #
For some reason it's hard to believe you own any PPC when you start championing Wordsmith over Texmaker or Mobilepaint over pArtist. The feature gap is too big.

The mmplayer payware is also lacking when compared to freeware pMVP. Even the fps you cited should speak volume.

Palm has some good apps, but not in the area you just mentioned.

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
Jacques T @ 7/28/2003 12:46:05 AM #
I don't own them anymore. I got rid of my iPAQ 38xx & 39xx while it still had/has a value. The paint programs for Palm are complete but the reason they are no PaintShop rival is because people don't really sit down and paint on a PDA. Documents to Go 5 or WordSmith have every feature you need for word processing on a PDA. The reason mmplayer only achieves smooth DivX playback @ 240x180 15fps is because it is in beta v0.1.7. I personally prefer Kinoma. But I only make clips @ 1000kbps. Anything under that yields grainy video. But @1000kbps you get VERY smooth, sharp, fast 320x240 playback @ 30fps. As I type this, I am watching Star Trek Nemesis on my Tungsten 2. :) Be honest dude, can you play true 320x240 30fps smooth movies on your PPC? You can't. Been there, tried it, failed.

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
Jacques T @ 7/28/2003 12:53:13 AM #
oh... and Kinoma Player is free. A limited encoder is free with the Zire 71 and T2. The full Kinoma encoder is not free.

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
grumpyelf @ 7/28/2003 12:55:07 AM #
1000kbps?
RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
Jacques T @ 7/28/2003 12:58:49 AM #
Yes, I know, that is large. But hey, VCD is 352x240 and 1256Kbps. 320x240 @ 1000 kbps is not unreasonable. But I know alot of people would prefer super compressed DivX at 150Kbps at the expense of quality.
I like my movies fullscreen, true 320x240 (not 160x120 stretched), full motion 30fps and FAST.

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
Jacques T @ 7/28/2003 1:01:14 AM #
Besides, I have a 256MB card now and over time they will only get larger and cheaper. I bet 1 GB chips will by like 10$ in the next few years.

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
Altema @ 7/28/2003 1:04:16 AM #
Yes, 1000K per second. In Kinoma, you can set the data rate which determines the image quality, and you can also set the frame rate and audio parameters. This lets you get good quality, and still tweak things downward for those hour-long videos.

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
Altema @ 7/28/2003 1:09:23 AM #
"Even the fps you cited should speak volume."

How about 229.8 FPS on an overloaded, low on memory T|T with hacks installed?

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
Jacques T @ 7/28/2003 1:18:10 AM #
Kinoma uses the Cinepak codec. I hope its add a few more in the future. Right now, the Tungsten plays Cinepak at 320x240 30fps and still has plenty of cpu power to spare. Hopefully, Kinoma will implement a codec that is between DivX and Cinepak and give us a bit more quality. But even as is, Im satisfied.

RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
grumpyelf @ 7/28/2003 3:02:15 PM #
mmplayer set up: skipping B-frames per default.
RE: Palm OS 5 superiority. The facts.
Altema @ 7/28/2003 4:31:09 PM #
"Right now, the Tungsten plays Cinepak at 320x240 30fps and still has plenty of cpu power to spare."

Jacques, my comment was an actual test showing what the T|T can do, even when loaded down. Doing better than 200Fps satisfies me as well :)

Well Put....

mrv @ 7/28/2003 12:09:24 PM #
I have purchased 3 Palm devices now, and having seen the T3 pictures/spec I am priming myself for a fourth. I have, however, always benchmarked PPC devices when I am ready to buy.

I have always found the PPC devices to be VERY poor when compared with Palm devices, but have always assumed that somehow I missed their real benefits.

Your article has given weight to my benchmarks, Palm (despite many shortcomings as you say) is clearly a better product right now

Best Regards, mrv

The Pocket PC ripoff

mikecane @ 7/29/2003 2:34:55 PM #
It's just what I expected from the PPC camp.

"You're entitled to any opinion you like, as long as it doesn't even *seem* to degrade Pocket PC."

Give us a break.

Had Jeff Hawkins not succeeded with the original Pilot, there *never would have been* a Pocket PC.

Ba'al Gates, in response to the original Zoomer and Newton, stated MS would come out with *their* PDA, called "WinPad."

Once Zoomer and Newton were shown to be sales flops, WinPad never made it past Ba'al Gates's empty brags.

Then Hawkins *finally* established the PDA marketplace with the Pilot and suddenly MS had to get in the game -- and in their usual smarmy way too, by trying to capitalize (read: steal!) on the Palm name by calling theirs a "Palm-size PC."

This is all history, all fact, that the weenie PPC cultists will never mention -- or ever bother to learn.

PPC fanboys: go play with your toys. Or yourselves. Whatever keeps you busy and away from PalmOS sites.

RE: The Pocket PC ripoff
abosco @ 7/29/2003 3:28:23 PM #
>>PPC fanboys: go play with your toys. Or yourselves.
>>Whatever keeps you busy and away from PalmOS sites.

Little more than two weeks ago, you were one of those fanboys, playing with himself to images of the H2215. Some of us placed bets on how long it would take you to come back.

Then again, what do I know! I'm just some 16 year old schmuck, remember? Indolent.

-Bosco

RE: The Pocket PC ripoff
helf @ 7/29/2003 3:40:48 PM #
Yes, thats something I have never understood. WHY do all you pocketPC users hang out here? It makes no sense.

RE: The Pocket PC ripoff
mikecane @ 7/29/2003 4:10:45 PM #
>>>I'm just some 16 year old schmuck, remember? Indolent.

I see you can do an honest self-assessment, abosco.

ROTFLMAO!

As for the PPC weenies coming here -- MS is known for paying people to post about their products. But I can't believe they would hire two mental cases to do so...

RE: The Pocket PC ripoff
Chrix @ 7/29/2003 11:38:58 PM #
"As for the PPC weenies coming here -- MS is known for paying people to post about their products"

Here I am reading a well written article by Mike, and when an alternative view is presented, he goes around ranting like a crybaby and getting paranoia that MS is paying us ppc folks. How I wish MS will share some of their money with me!!

After writing such a good article, we are disappointed that an individual like Mike starts acting like someone with rabies, and throws all logic out of the window (if there's any logic left after he recovers from his fanatical frenzy). Now we see the maturity level of someone behind Mike's article, seems like he's the one who needs to prove his manhood.

RE: The Pocket PC ripoff
Chrix @ 7/29/2003 11:53:49 PM #
Though we may be in different camps, I like the way Altema presented his views. That's the way to go, which we could see more of such Palm users than another David Koresh a.k.a Mikecane in the making...
RE: The Pocket PC ripoff
pdantic @ 7/31/2003 11:48:00 AM #
Interesting. I've been reviewing Windows CE devices (Handheld PCs, Palm-Size PCs, Pocket PCs, and now Smartphones) since 1997 and I've never been paid by Microsoft for ANYTHING. One thing they *have* done is provided me with review equipment so that I can learn more about their products. That's something that Palm has never done despite repeated requests.

Mike, your ignorance of Microsoft is astounding. More than anything, I've found that they're very accepting of criticism so that flaws can be fixed. For example, most Pocket PC 2002 reviewers hated the way that you had to set up network connections - it was confusing and took many steps to accomplish. All that has been fixed in Pocket PC 2003. And that's just one detail. They've made other improvements based primarily on the input of reviewers and users.

I've learned to be platform-agnostic. There are some things about PalmOS that I love, and other things I hate. I feel the same way about Pocket PCs and Smartphones. What's important is to make sure that people are buying the device that's right for THEM, not buying it just because it fits YOUR personal opinion of what's right or wrong. And your attacks on Microsoft are just plain unprofessional...

RE: The Pocket PC ripoff
mikecane @ 8/2/2003 9:13:34 AM #
Stuff it. You are obviously ignorant of the rapacious history of Microsoft. Enjoy the free toys they give you.

I think we should approach any article that pits PPC vs OS

kuyars @ 7/30/2003 9:58:48 AM #
in which the author has never spent a considerable amount of time on BOTH platforms. I do not see anywhere in his article noting that he has ever owned a PPC and only cites ancedotal evidence or evidence based on usage at a CompUSA.

If the very same article were written about "Why I Wouldn't Buy a PalmOS," I'm sure that alot of you would have picked up on this. Would you all trust someone devaluing your favorite platform when he never mentions having owned a device? Think about it.

RE: I think we should approach any article that pits PPC vs OS
kuyars @ 7/30/2003 10:02:12 AM #
I meant, of course, PPC vs. PalmOS in the title above...

RE: I think we should approach any article that pits PPC vs OS
mikecane @ 8/2/2003 9:14:56 AM #
I cite *three* things that *I* don't like about PPC and all of your cultists come flocking out of the woodwork. That's what it is, cultism. And just plain damned stupidity -- for if *any* of you had bothered to follow-through on the links embedded in the article, you would have seen the frigging *list* of things that are missing in PalmOS!

I have no patience for cultists. Nor should I have to cultivate any.

Opinion from a long time former Palm user

klam @ 7/30/2003 1:18:27 PM #
While I understand the strong anti-PocketPC sentiment on this Palm OS forum, I thought I'd throw my thoughts on this well-debated topic.

I have used a Palm IIIxe and Vx for many years. In fact I was such a devoted Palm user I became a shareholder in PALM because I believed in the product so much. Last year I purchased my first PocketPC and have been a happy user since. As such, I feel that I have a very informed view on both OS platforms, being a devoted Palm users for many years and now a PocketPC enthusiast.

While Palm OS has long touted its advantages of size, cost, battery life, and stability, I feel that the gap in these areas is narrowing. PocketPC devices are often smaller, can be had less, have good enough battery life, and are stable enough.

The long-standing comment about Palm OS PIM functions (i.e. calendar, to do, memo, and addresse) being superior to PocketPC is hogwash. The last time I checked, the built-in Datebook application was archaic, overly simple, and un-updated in many years. To get any useful PIM features, a Palm user would need to get Datebk3/4/5 or Agendus/ActionNames. The same holds true for PocketPC. To get a truly useful PIM, you would need to get your hands on Agenda Fusion or Pocket Informant. So the arguement that Palm's built-in PIM applications are superior is unfounded.

I also find the comment about Palm's superior 320x320 display is one of academic nature. Sure you get more pixels, but when you're looking at a PDA screen which is naturally very small, you can only shoehorn so many pixels in that limited area. Those additional 80 pixels on one axis do not translate into much more visibility! 320x240 is sufficient for the size of LCD that is on PDAs.

Furthermore, PocketPC displays are generally larger than Palm OS device displays anyway (especially with the virtual graffit area standard on all PocketPCs). A larger LCD area would be easier to view than a smaller LCD with more pixels any day. When I watch encoded films on my PocketPC, do I miss those additional 80 pixels? Probably not. I just rotate the screen landscape to suit the width-biased aspect ratio of films. The fact that I can hide the graffiti area gives me generous use of the entire display.

Then there is the arguement that PocketPC users are only gadget freaks and not serious PIM users. I find that I use my PocketPC daily and regularly just as much as I would have used my Palm device. But in addition to the PIM uses, I also enjoy the flexibility of my PocketPC device. I track expenses in Microsoft Money, I can record meetings/lectures in MP3 format with NoteM, I can plot out my travel route with Mapopolis, I can edit an Excel spreadsheet in SpreadCE without losing anything or converting any files from the standard PC .XLS files, I can double my PocketPC as an MP3 walkman by playing MP3, WMA, RealAudio, OGG just by copying directly from my PC, I can watch films, TV shows, movies using PocketMVP/Windows Media Player, view Acrobat PDFs and documents exactly as they would on PC using Acrobat Reader or RepliGo, and a variety of other ways to make use of a PDA other than calendar, to do, notes, and addresses.

Has my PocketPC been without its troubles? Of course not. It does have its issues, but Palm is not completely infalliable as well. I just make sure I regularly backup my files. To this date, I have not lost any important information.

If there is one thing I will say about Palm, it requires a lower level of "computer expertise" than does a PocketPC device I feel. In this regard, it is easier get started on.

The main point of my response is that I know there is a faithful Palm OS following. It is one thing to follow faithfully, it is another to follow blindly. And for some of the ardent Palm followers, I appeal to you to open your minds and not to be so closed off to new things. I was once among your ranks, swearing by my Palm Vx while a friend of mine was dabbling with his HP Jornada 520.

For me, I do not forsee myself reverting back to Palm OS at this point in time. The features and capabilities of PocketPC OS are far too compelling for me to go back at this point. With new PocketPC devices arriving like the HP 2215 (small form factor, great LCD, CF/SD slots, Bluetooth, removeable battery, cheaper than a Tungsten T/C) it becomes apparent that there will be a lot of competition for your dollars in the PocketPC arena.

So what ever happened to the PALM shares I owned? I had to sell them because my faith was not in Palm anymore.

RE: Opinion from a long time former Palm user
helf @ 7/30/2003 5:05:03 PM #
what in the fscking hell are you talking about? PocketPC's do NOT have vg. HOW many times do we have to tell you people that. Jeez...

RE: Opinion from a long time former Palm user
grumpyelf @ 7/30/2003 9:33:12 PM #
if vg means Virtual Grafitti, yes PPC has a Grafitti input in form of virtual windows (ie. VG). Standard PPC comes with 4 types of built in virtual input options.
RE: Opinion from a long time former Palm user
helf @ 7/30/2003 11:21:28 PM #
okok. It might have block recognizer and such but its still NOT a graffiti area.. thats strictly a palm thing .. call it what you want tho..

RE: Opinion from a long time former Palm user
helf @ 7/30/2003 11:22:27 PM #
d'oh.I just thought of several other pda's that have stuff like vg :\ n/m then.. :)

RE: Opinion from a long time former Palm user
Pony99CA @ 7/31/2003 1:26:16 AM #
klam wrote:


The main point of my response is that I know there is a faithful Palm OS following. It is one thing to follow faithfully, it is another to follow blindly. And for some of the ardent Palm followers, I appeal to you to open your minds and not to be so closed off to new things. I was once among your ranks, swearing by my Palm Vx while a friend of mine was dabbling with his HP Jornada 520.


Hear, hear! There are plenty of legitimate reasons for getting either platform. Once someone gets a PDA, they may not switch because they're comfortable with the device they got first, and that's understandable.

I do think both camps can learn things from the other, too. I don't follow much about Palm devices, but I do read some articles about them (like Mike's). I find it interesting to see some of the differences, even though I'm happy with my Pocket PC.

If we realized that we have more in common (being PDA users) than differences (which model PDA we use or which OS it uses), maybe we'd all be better off.

Palms are getting more RAM, becoming more colorful and now have better resoltuion than Pocket PCs in many cases, but their battery life is getting worse because of the extra power. Pocket PCs are becoming smaller and cheaper, but the OS still requires more power and memory than Palm OS. This convergence shows that the vendors are learning from each other; I hope the users can, too.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: Opinion from a long time former Palm user
grumpyelf @ 7/31/2003 1:57:09 AM #
I don't think there is anything to learn from Palm aside from what not to do. Palm OS was designed when dragonball was still the most best CPU for portable handheld. It barely evolve to exploit the full power of moden hardware. It would be very interesting to watch the OS 6.0, I won't out run or out slick PPC.
RE: Opinion from a long time former Palm user
mikecane @ 8/2/2003 9:25:52 AM #
>>>So the arguement that Palm's built-in PIM applications are superior is unfounded.

No they are not. If they provide *all* the functions someone needs, that makes it superior to anything else out there for that person. The built-in Date Book works fine for me; I have no need for increased power.

Will this make you trust M$ and the PPC?

somas1 @ 7/30/2003 4:52:57 PM #
RE: Will this make you trust M$ and the PPC?
Pony99CA @ 7/31/2003 1:47:29 AM #
somas1 wrote:


http://brighthand.com/article/WinMobile03_May_Have_Problem_with_Alarms


That's the alarm unreliability I mentioned in a previous posting (although I have experienced it in Pocket PC 2002, too; apparently Microsoft still hasn't fixed it in Windows Mobile 2003).

There are third-party solutions that some people say work all the time, but simple alarms obviously shouldn't require a third-party program.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: Will this make you trust M$ and the PPC?
somas1 @ 7/31/2003 3:41:31 PM #
I did not realize you had brought this up already buy there are just too many comments now for me to find your previous post. My point is still valid. I don't think microsoft really cares about making anything well. PPC alarms have been problematic for quite some time and still are. I rely on alarms to remind me of things. I am by nature very compulsive and I always fear that I will forget something I need to do. The calender functions of Palms have helped me to get over this. I cannot imagine how frustrated I would be if I had a PPC. I would always be turning it on to make sure an alarm did not fail to notify me of something I needed to do.
Furthermore, the fact that this problem has not been corrected lends credence to the idea that PPC users don't care about, need, or understand PIM. Don't get me wrong, I want my palm to play music, play movies and every other cool thing possible but only if PIM functions are not affected.

Now PPC needs an *APP* for beaming!

mikecane @ 7/30/2003 7:51:03 PM #
Not only doesn't Beaming on PPC work a lot of the time, I should have mentioned that many PPCers I've come across don't even know *how* to beam.

Now they can buy training wheels to help them --

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,15018

Some "superior" platform...

RE: Now PPC needs an *APP* for beaming!
grumpyelf @ 7/30/2003 9:29:48 PM #
That app is a beaming utility so you can beam everything like a remote control (eg. one touch beaming under today's plug in etc)

but to beam anything in PPC, file, address, appointment, one simply taphold the item and beaming option should come up.

It's not as complicated as you thing. A single tap hold on the item will do it.

What an idiot?

ladomuji @ 7/30/2003 10:50:21 PM #
Obviously, Mike Cane is another one of those idiots who bash PPC just because they prefer Palm! Oh God!

RE: What an idiot?
helf @ 7/30/2003 10:52:32 PM #
um,no. He isnt jsut a mindless palm zealot, even if you think so. And why teh fscking hell do you pocketPC users hang out on a PALM website? its insane.

RE: What an idiot?
ladomuji @ 7/30/2003 10:56:34 PM #
And when did I, Mr. Helf(Moron), did I mention that I have a PocketPC? I use Zire 71 for your information.
RE: What an idiot?
helf @ 7/30/2003 11:20:19 PM #
lol. I wonder what kind of response I'd get to that.

RE: Pocket PC Visitors
Pony99CA @ 7/31/2003 1:58:54 AM #
helf wrote:


And why teh fscking hell do you pocketPC users hang out on a PALM website? its insane.


So what you're saying is that there's nothing useful a Pocket PC user can learn from Palm users. Interesting....

I think you'd welcome having Pocket PC users come and learn about the differences in the platforms; maybe some will decide Palms are better for their needs and switch.

I think Pocket PC sites would welcome having Palm users visit and learn about the competition. In fact, I know one PalmSource employee hangs out at Pocket PC Thoughts.

Of course, trolls are probably not welcome any place.

Steve

Silicon Valley Pocket PC
http://www.svpocketpc.com

RE: What an idiot?
sasquatchw/ppc @ 7/31/2003 5:56:01 AM #
Guys they're only handhelds for crying out loud!!! It seems like everyone is acting religous about these things , sheesh!!

PPC's RULE!!!
RE: What an idiot?
helf @ 7/31/2003 9:33:27 AM #
What? its not a religion ? ;)

If you want ot come and "learn" teh diffs then fine.. But what I see is mainly palm zealots getting into arguements with pcoketpc "users".

RE: What an idiot?
helf @ 7/31/2003 9:45:01 AM #
woah.. Something is wrong with my hands..


"If you want to come and learn,then that is fine."

RE: What an idiot?
mikecane @ 8/2/2003 9:28:53 AM #
>>>Of course, trolls are probably not welcome any place.

-- why the hell are you still here?! You still think you're making some sort of contribution? All you're doing is displaying the kind of cluelessness cultists always have. Or is this your way of licking the knees of MS and trying to snag one of those idiotic MVP ratings? "Lookit me! I'm an MVP! Microsoft likes me! They really LIKE me!" How sad.

RE: What an idiot?
abosco @ 8/2/2003 3:19:05 PM #
>I think Pocket PC sites would welcome having Palm
>users visit and learn about the competition. In
>fact, I know one PalmSource employee hangs out at
>Pocket PC Thoughts.

>Of course, trolls are probably not welcome any place.

Bosco whistles quietly to himself..

You know what I find funny about PPCT? They'll never fail to bash Palm, but as soon as Mike Mace comes in, they kiss his ass so much it makes me laugh.

-Bosco

RE: What an idiot?
bigfoot @ 8/3/2003 10:06:51 PM #
Maybe it is simply this - we feel M$ has controll of enough of our computer life and we feel Gates has enough of our money.

Cheers

I agree with everything except the slider on tungsten t 's

Riceboy @ 9/7/2003 9:47:25 PM #
Palm OS is absolutely better than the Pocket pc OS. I myself previously had an HP Ipaq 2215 w/ the pocket pc 2003 premium edition and thought that was the BEST pda currently in the market today in terms of price, features, size, etc. But about 2 weeks ago, I exchanged my 2215 to Best Buy for a Tungsten T2 and I instatntly fell in love the first minute I turned it on and used it. Palm's PIM ease of use is infinitely better than anything I've ever used. In my opinion, though, the slider is a great idea because it makes the device shorter and much easier to carry around in the pocket.

Mike Cane = Palmtagonist

pixelator @ 9/8/2003 2:47:52 AM #
This entire "piece" (and boy, is it) is nothing more than sub-par ignorant swill perpetuating the same old fallacies about the PocketPC OS and hardware. Mr. Cane has managed to construct a textbook psychological profile of a flagrantly ego-emotional and aggressive Palm-centrist pundit, complete with schoolyard slurs for those who disagree with his utterly useless, self-important fragile-ego rherotic.

Hey Mike, where's MY free Pocket PC? Anyone who posts something good about it must be paid off by MS, right? You'll put in the good word for me with Bill, right? Got to keep the home fires of conspiracy burning bright there on Planet Palmlover.

The fact that this site even presents this tripe as remotely credible 'opinion' shows that they subscribe to this very sort of truthless, blinded, ignorant ranting. Far be it from PIC or Cane to even begin to acknowledge that both platforms have advantages that may appeal to different (or even similar) folks, respectively - or that maybe just a weeeee bit of personal preference has played a role in these all-too-aggro concrete conclusions that PPC sucks.

What's even funnier are the "Cool! What he said! Yay! PPC is crap!" replies in this thread, and then the occasional disagreement by those who either have both or just plain know better, promptly insulted, attacked and dismissed by Cane and the Palm Fanatic followers. Hey, now THAT's an open mind!

You know, I've been enjoying my new NX70V recently, and have owned more Palms than most users on this site (probably including Cane). But this typed-out flatulent BS-fest gives me pause at even being associated with any Palm product. Way to 'promote' Palm, Mr. Cane! Gates couldn't possibly do any better with someone like you on his side making PalmOS owners look like a bunch of frothing holy warriors devout in their religious-level dedication to the great and all-powerful PALM logo.

If MS gives out PPCs to people who don't agree with you, then what did YOU get? Some kind of favors from Donna Dubinsky? Or is Hawkins more your speed?

Sorry dude, but you're dishing out the horse crap in truckfulls - time you had some stuffed back in you. Palms are great, so are Pocket PCs. Each one sucks at certain things and offers some thing(s) the other doesn't do as well. Unlike your 'writing' -- keep your day job (at Palm).

RE: Mike Cane = Palmtagonist
drac @ 9/17/2003 9:47:11 AM #
Wow.

RE: Mike Cane = Palmtagonist
mikecane @ 9/17/2003 10:45:08 AM #
"...a textbook psychological profile..."

I wonder what textbook you've read from? Psychoanalysis for Dummies?

Yet another paid-by-MS or kissing-the-a**-of-MS fanboy.

RE: Mike Cane = Palmtagonist
orb2069 @ 9/17/2003 11:35:41 AM #
... schoolyard slurs for those who disagree with his utterly useless, self-important fragile-ego rherotic...

If MS gives out PPCs to people who don't agree with you, then what did YOU get? Some kind of favors from Donna Dubinsky? Or is Hawkins more your speed?

You know, you kind of held it together untill you started with the frat-boy ***-calling. Maybe next time you can actually do a whole post without insulting somebody. Good luck!

Back in the day....

Khephren @ 10/23/2003 11:18:56 AM #
You should have bought a Psion series 5....

And so the truth is acknowledged!

mikecane @ 12/12/2003 5:33:24 PM #
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?action=expand,21911

"Alarm Problems on Pocket PC 2003 Devices"

PALM OS is on par with the technology of the MAC OS 1.0

elgatofilo @ 3/15/2004 11:31:49 AM #
I think Palm OS is friendly in a rather primitive concept. Although my T3 is powered by the latest Intel X-scale at 400Mhz and has 64 MB I still find nearly the same shortcomings on my ancient Palm V with a 16Mhz dragonball and 2MB, these are:

-You can only store .PDB and .PRC In the internal memory, it absolutyely refuses to accept any other kind of file in it;s in ternal memory. It also absolutely refuses to accept the existence of non-PRC files on a memory card.

-Extremely poor multimedia support. The multimedia support in PALM OS 5 simply floats on-top of the OS and is a CPU function, not an OS function, if your a developer like me you'll know that it takes great effort to bring multimedia into the OS, you also require expensive third-party software to bring even half the performance of a Pocket PC. In Pocket PC (I also own a Toshiba e330)multimedia is a core OS function natively integrated into the OS, making the creation of multimedia programs so easy that there are hundreds of FREE mp3 players with super advanced features such as surround-sound, 3D sound, EQ, pre-amping,etc. etc. like in a real modern OS. I dare someone to find a FREE mp3 player with those functions for Palm OS.

In conclusion, when I use Palm OS, I feel it's a friendly OS, on par with the technology of MAC OS 1.0 AND DOS ON PAR WITH THE TECHNOLOGY OF THE INTEL 8080. When I use Pocket PC I feel as though I am using a real modern OS ON PAR WITH A MODERN CPU'S CAPAPBILITIES. However I must admit that my main PDA is the T3 (BUT I REALLY DO THINK THAT THE T3 IS HEAVILY OVERPOWERED, THERE'S NO WAY PALM OS PROGRAMS WILL EVER NEED 400MHZ WITH THE OS'S CURRENT TECHNOLOGY, IN FACT I HAVE A PXA CLOCKER THAT CLOCKS DOWN THE CPU TO 100MHZ AND IT RUNS AT THE EXACT SAME SPEED), but that has more to do with aestetics. I still listen to MP3's on my Palm OS

RE: PALM OS is on par with the technology of the MAC OS 1.0
feranick @ 3/15/2004 6:06:37 PM #
I guess this has to do with the fact that OS5 is using an emulator to run palm application. The emulator (PACE) will run at a specific speed, no matter what the speed of the processor is. It's like running the Commodore 64 emulator on a PC, it has its own running speed (and limits). Otherwise if it had to run at the PC speed, it would be too fast.

I hope Cobalt (being built natively) will allows the design of modern programs. Still plenty of annoying shortcomings though (the prc and pdb are still the only extension in internal memory...).

Nick

RE: PALM OS is on par with the technology of the MAC OS 1.0
Gekko @ 3/15/2004 7:19:33 PM #
>You can only store .PDB and .PRC In the internal memory, it absolutyely refuses to accept any other kind of file in it;s in ternal memory. It also absolutely refuses to accept the existence of non-PRC files on a memory card.

TRY:

Receiveit 2.0
Receive native files from any devices and store onto your expansion card! Turn your device into an universal file receiver.

http://www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=software.showsoftware&SID=42529526-CF18-AC90-823418D7AFC1B7C2&PartnerREF=&prodID=52596



RE: PALM OS is on par with the technology of the MAC OS 1.0
mikecane @ 3/16/2004 2:15:38 AM #
>>>I still listen to MP3's on my Palm OS

But why, if you also have a PPC? I thought MP3 output was better on a PPC?

>>>there are hundreds of FREE mp3 players [for PPC]

This is a whale of an exaggeration. *List* these "hundreds." I know there are more -- and better ones -- for PPC, a fact I will not dispute. I dispute your ability to, uh, count.

nice article

jkendrick @ 7/29/2004 10:04:13 AM #
Nice article, Mike. I think you point about TnH doesn't take into account how individual everyone's taste is when it comes to their gadgets. That is probably the reason Palm removed this from the OS itself, as your followup comment indicates. Everyone's needs are so different and it's important to just use what works for you. I probably switch gadgets more than anybody on that never-ending quest for the "perfect solution" for me. :-)

jk
...using mobile devices since they weighed 30 lbs.
www.jkontherun.com
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