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Comments on: PalmGear Acquires Palm Digital Media In Deal With PalmSource

PalmGear and PalmSource today announced a strategic alliance designed to bolster the success of the Palm Economy. As part of the alliance, PalmGear acquired PalmSource's subsidiary Palm Digital Media, and will power a new PalmSource online software store.
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*gasp*

kezza @ 9/3/2003 11:07:39 AM #
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I've put so much effort into avoiding PalmGear for the last couple years due to their sometimes very shady business practices, I just can't comprehend having Kenny West et al running the PDM bookstore, too. This is a raging disaster.
I may have to migrate to MobiPocket.
While I realize that the policies in place at PalmGear that I disagree with probably won't migrate to the bookstore, I still feel queasy about giving my money to PalmGear. I don't like supporting a business that doesn't respect it's developers or customers and institutes policies preventing developers from distributing *their* product how and where they want.
I have long felt that PalmGear is intent on creating a monopoly in the distribution of third party Palm software, and this only justifies that suspicion.

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com
RE: *gasp*
Purfekshunist @ 9/3/2003 11:43:34 AM #
My reaction exactly ("Nooooooooo!"). I've been hooked on reading ebooks on my Palm ever since the original Doc program, and after having gone through the classics (those I've wanted to read, anyway) available for free I've been reading new releases purchased from PDM.

The pricing structure at PDM has changed for the better over time. Now, I can get a brand-new release for much less than the cost of the hardcover version(previously, it used to cost just as much). With the acquisition of PDM by PalmGear, my fear is that this rational pricing structure will change for the worse.

I'm also afraid that if PalmGear alienates publishers the way they have developers, there will be no channel for getting national bestseller-type new book releases on the Palm platform.

I'm probably overreacting. Hopefully, everything will stay the same (especially PDM's website - I'd hate to see it start looking like PalmGear's). Maybe we'll be surprised, and PalmGear will offer an even better selection of ebooks at lower prices. Unfortunately, I'd be less surprised if PDM gets driven out of business.


RE: *gasp*
helf @ 9/3/2003 11:50:47 AM #
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO was my response when I read it too :( This sucks.

RE: *gasp*
craigf @ 9/3/2003 12:54:01 PM #
IMO, Handango is *much* closer to creating a monopoly for handheld software distribution than PalmGear is, so this might somewhat even things out and help us avoid a monopolistic situation (where the only folks who win are the monopolists). Granted, the PG folks have shown that they can screw things up, but they've also shown that they're willing to listen. All we can do is hope for the best.

RE: *gasp*
Beavis @ 9/3/2003 1:16:11 PM #
Now I can look forward to Palmgear losing all of the account information for my previously purchased books. I better download them all again before the Kenny West Group gets ahold of it.

RE: *gasp*
Purfekshunist @ 9/3/2003 1:52:47 PM #
Good point, Beavis. Gotta go redownload all of my purchased ebooks now.

RE: *gasp*
guesswho @ 9/3/2003 1:53:10 PM #
- I thought Palmgear doesn't have enough money to even pay their developer, Where do they get the money to ACQUIRE Palm Digital Media?

Palm digital Media is the only Part that make BIG money in Palmsource. No wonder THe whole stock tank today.

RE: *gasp*
Gar @ 9/3/2003 2:47:39 PM #
Neat! Now if you do a free book you will be at the bottom of the list and no one will ever see it. AND at any time they can discount your product without your permission. I guess I will go back to posting all my books up on memoware, too bad they are owned by Handmark now.
RE: *gasp*
G M Fude @ 9/4/2003 7:49:14 AM #
Well that's just great -- I needed that news like I needed a hole in the head. I use PDM and they are efficient and fair and the site is well structured with a user-friendly interface. Goodness knows what PG's meddling will do to that.

I guess I can expect two or three times more spam in my e-mail Inbox once PG start work with the mailing lists they inherit from PDM...

RE: *gasp*
RSC @ 9/5/2003 6:58:03 PM #
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
For me, too! I'm off to download all of my e-books right now before Kenny West loses all of my account information or tries to get me to re-buy all of them!!!
How I long for the halcyon days of PeanutPress, PalmStation, small independent developers advertising their wares without needing to jump through a wanna-be-monopolist (or perhaps a megolomaniacal tyrant with delusions of grandeur), and Palm WebRings...
/me sighs...

Good and Mostly Bad

rzr @ 9/3/2003 11:16:30 AM #
Well, good that PalmSource divested themselves of Palm Digital Media. I never thought that a particularly good idea -- as soon as PalmSource started competing with its own developers, I figured it wasn't necessarily going to be good for the platform.

As for the alliance with PalmGear....bad, bad, bad. Only more fuel on the fire against developers. PalmGear has become more and more developer-unfriendly as time has passed (pulling developer's links to support, increasing their percentage cut, the infamous lack-of-payment dramalog, and the recent debacle over required About links back to PalmGear only).

I was really hoping PalmSource would start their own repository for software and put PalmGear where it belongs...out of business. Oh well.

RE: Good and Mostly Bad
Battloid @ 9/3/2003 11:31:04 AM #
I can only agree with the above sentiments regarding Palmgear and its policies and treatment of developers - beiong one of those on the receiving end of their "practices" myself.

And it's a little galling they have enough money to buy PDM but not to pay back all that owed to developers as is their rightful and legal due...

So that's somewhere else I won't be spending my money.

RE: Good and Mostly Bad
pdahead @ 9/3/2003 6:00:42 PM #
I agree, it is completely irressponsible for PG to spend $ millions paying palmsource for PDM and the store. THey owe developers tons of money. How dare they spend the developers money to buy a money-losing division of palm, and to open a store on a url that doesn't get any traffic. I will boycot PG forever.

Peanut Press

Doo @ 9/3/2003 11:33:26 AM #
The orginal peanut press is now owned by the peanut gallery. Bad bad bad. I'll go to memoware and get the classics for free.

RE: Peanut Press
Palm_Otaku @ 9/3/2003 8:11:26 PM #
Heh, no - the peanut gallery is busy posting on PIC ;)

I hope that PalmGear keeps PalmDigitalMedia running essentially as it is now. Their DRM system is one of the most elegant implementations out there; there's a great selection of books which is easily searchable; the reader is regularly updated to take advantage of new device capabilities yet supports old devices.

A question for the posters who claim that PDM was a money-losing division of PalmSource: is that speculation, or can you back that up?

Cheers,

Dan

RE: Peanut Press
hkklife @ 9/4/2003 9:24:36 AM #
If the books weren't *SO* damned overpriced--I mean, seriously, anyone I've ever talked to over their mid-30's hates e-books with a passion and considers them a waste of time and too eye-straining to be worth it. With that said, PG should make a move like the major record labels are doing-cut the prices and try to stem the losses via volume sales instead of gouging the few loyal customers that are probably left over from the days of PeanutPress. Of course, they will point the fingers at the publishers and there will be an endless catch-22 situation...

(That said, the PalmReader software has really evolved into a nice, elegant, and stable app-I hope it is updated regularly and properly maintained in the future). Still, I've personally read far more "classics" from Memoware than from PDM/PNP.

RE: Peanut Press
petew @ 9/4/2003 12:29:41 PM #
Oi, I'm in my mid 30's and love ebooks :)

RE: Peanut Press
fleegle @ 9/4/2003 10:27:39 PM #
I'm over 40 and love to read e-books. I do think they are overpriced when they are just released. I have paid the higher price only because I want the book "now" especially if it is a Stephen King book. :) Usually I just wait a few months and then the prices become more reasonable.

I'd much rather have the e-book rather than lug around the hard copy versions.

RE: Peanut Press
Doo @ 9/5/2003 10:43:36 AM #
It's a shame the ebooks are almost the same price as the hard back cousins. You would think the endless invintory of an ebook would cancle out the large price. No stock, no over head, no production cost. I would pay a buck or maybe two for one. But when I can get a paperback for $4 and my family can read it when I'm done makes paying the higher ebook price stops me. I have bought Time LIne and a few others from Peanut Press and then let others read them on their Palms after I was finished but hated giving my CC number.

What about PalmReader for PPC

Ronin @ 9/3/2003 1:02:01 PM #
Any news on how this will effect PalmReader for the PPC?

While I am a Palm user, I am also an e-book reader and I have always thought that having cross-platform e-books was good for e-books and their continued adoption by PDA users everywhere.

If PalmReader for the PPC is discontinued, I think it would be a step in the wrong direction for e-books.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!

lando24 @ 9/3/2003 12:54:56 PM #
I think it's embarrassingand a real discredit to PalmSource to enter into a relationship with PalmGear.
These people have scammed developers and flat out lied. PalmSource should require that every single overdue dollar be paid to developers immediately. They *should not* participate in any relationship with PalmGear until they come clean and restore trust with the development community.

PalmGear told hundreds of small and independent developers that they didn't have money to pay. They gave them the option of accepting pennies on the dollar or spreading out payment over many months. They used the royalties owed to developers as operating cash, paying legal expenses and god knows what else.

Now it seems like they have cash to acquire companies. How many developers are still owed their royalties?

Come on PalmSource!! Wake up!! Don't be fooled by that smooth talking Kenny West. Do you homework and find the truth for yourself.

Please post here if you're a developer and still owed money by PalmGear.

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
frauen1 @ 9/3/2003 2:48:58 PM #
I'm a developer owed money by PalmGear. While I want my money quicker than they are paying me, I have no problem with this move. PG is trying to develop better revenue streams - no problem there. I do have problems with some of their policies, but having a policy and carrying it out are two different things.

I mean, compare PG to most of the dotcom darlings of the late 90's - not many of them have lasted as long as PG has, despite PG's business missteps. PG has done enough good faith moves for me to accept them. Others may make different decisions and that's fine by me.

I also suspect that part of this move is PalmSource making sure that their is a Palm-specific software distributor. I'm sure it's a good move from their point of view (otherwise they wouldn't have made it).

(BTW, Kenny is not the CEO, Ryan is.)

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
Michael Mace @ 9/3/2003 6:34:58 PM #
Hey.

To give a little background on this announcement, our overall goal is to drive more sales of Palm OS apps. We're doing a lot of things to help, including the online applications directory and Expert Guides that we already launched and that will continue to grow (www.palmsource.com/applications).

We decided that in addition to those resources, we needed a Palm OS software store on PalmSource.com. We spent several months looking at *a lot* of options, both in house and with other companies. No choice was perfect. But when we balanced everything, the relationship with PalmGear looked like the best overall choice.

Unfortunately, this is a situation where it's impossible to please everyone. All I can tell you is that we tried to make the best decision for the overall Palm economy, and for our business. And I think we did.

Someone asked if this means something bad for the Handango-powered store on palmOne.com. Not at all. PalmOne is now operating like a separate company, and they make their own decisions. And speaking for PalmSource, we value all the software stores out there, and we'll continue to support them. We just had to pick one to power our own store.

Mike
CCO, PalmSource Inc.

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
rzr @ 9/3/2003 7:06:55 PM #
Mike:

I appreciate your comments here (and elsewhere), and your motivation is understandable. But if your interest is also in supporting your developers, consider polling the satisfaction of developers for their opinion of PalmGear's behavior. While PalmGear has made some real improvements (like the recent addition of automatic code generation, promised for...um...five years or so), they have also made some severely unwise decisions as well, and not all of those in the distant past.

Perhaps with your deal PalmSource can have some *positive* influence on PalmGear's policies? How about restoring developer's links to technical support or FAQs, or offering some viable alternative? How about building some simple utility to grant PalmGear it's coveted exclusive "About" page, without requiring developers to cut a special version of their software that "complies" with their insane new policy? (I'll calmly realize there's little you could do about a timely and "in-full" pay-out for past-due monies, but these others are real issues you *might* be able to change/influence. ;-P)

If PalmSource is really now "in bed" with these guys, it is in your best interest to address some very real compaints and concerns which PalmGear has ignored in its unfriendly (hostile?) attitute toward developers.

After all, without the developers, there is no "gear." Or, for that matter, much of a "Palm."

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
seichert @ 9/3/2003 7:58:41 PM #



I think it's embarrassingand a real discredit to PalmSource to enter into a relationship with PalmGear.
These people have scammed developers and flat out lied. PalmSource should require that every single overdue dollar be paid to developers immediately. They *should not* participate in any relationship with PalmGear until they come clean and restore trust with the development community.


PalmGear told hundreds of small and independent developers that they didn't have money to pay. They gave them the option of accepting pennies on the dollar or spreading out payment over many months. They used the royalties owed to developers as operating cash, paying legal expenses and god knows what else.

Now it seems like they have cash to acquire companies. How many developers are still owed their royalties?

Come on PalmSource!! Wake up!! Don't be fooled by that smooth talking Kenny West. Do you homework and find the truth for yourself.

Please post here if you're a developer and still owed money by PalmGear.


It is understandable that you and other developers want to be paid immediately. However, I would suspect that the money is not there to pay everyone immediately. You now essentially hold debt in PalmGear and want them to repay you. You can either a) write it off as a bad debt, b) negotiate a deal with them to repay you the debt, c) do nothing. PalmGear can only pay you with money they actually receive. Therefore if you have come to an agreement with PalmGear concerning repayment you want PalmGear to make as much money as possible. If PalmGear will make more money by acquiring PDM they have a better chance of being able to pay you back. I would advise you to evaluate options a,b,c concerning the money that is owed to you and make what you believe to be the most logical (not emotional) decision. In addition you should judge PalmGear by their actions and not their words or the personalities of their executive team.


When you feel like someone has stolen from you (as I suspect you do based on your comment) it is very hard to make an objective and logical decision concerning how you should proceed with debt collection and future business arrangements. Your emotions are perfectly valid and need to be expressed. It may help to go to a batting cage or driving range and let it out. However, your decision must be made on logic.

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
Michael Mace @ 9/3/2003 8:04:10 PM #
Good suggestions. I can't make any promises at this point, but we're definitely listening, and we appreciate the ideas.

Mike
CCO, PalmSource Inc.

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
pgovotsos @ 9/3/2003 9:03:43 PM #
Hello Mike,
You said that "Unfortunately, this is a situation where it's impossible to please everyone." This is true. Unfortunately, from what I've experienced and what others have said, the ONLY person / group you will please will be PalmGear. You should be getting the message very loudly and clearly that NONE of your cash paying customers expect to see any benefit.

I'm very sorry that PalmSource has made such a short-sighted blunder. This will hurt you, Palm Digital Media, and me - your (possibly former) custome.

Thank you,
Panagiotis

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
guesswho @ 9/3/2003 10:44:20 PM #
So how much did PSRC get for selling the media group anyway?
He who plays in the cesspool winds up smelling like SHI*...
The Ugly Truth @ 9/4/2003 2:37:49 AM #
Ancient Chinese proverb.

Why would Palm tarnish their name even further by associating with PalmGear? Instead of grabbing at straws, trying to instantly correct the mistakes of the past three years, Palm shold be concentrating on doing things correctly the first time. Chosing PalmGear simply because they seemed to be the best of a bad lot shows the kind of lack of judgement that has now become the Palm M.O. in recent years.

The easiest path is often not the wisest path. Remember the m505...

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
Strider_mt2k @ 9/4/2003 5:28:22 AM #
They're hoping we'll forget about the m505.

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
ardiri @ 9/4/2003 7:47:24 AM #
> While PalmGear has made some real improvements
> (like the recent addition of automatic code
> generation, promised for...um...five years or so)

zane, keep in mind that i finished this module in 2000.

http://www.ardiri.com/palm/jCode/

it just took PGHQ over 3 years to get everything into order and get it migrated into their servers. part of the problem is that they have dumped 3-4 web site designers, and, then opted to code the e-commerce engine themselves, for easier integration.. the jCode system is so far out of date, i doubt many developers will even be using it.

now, in regards to PalmGear?

damn - they owe me and my partners money big time - i dont think i'll ever see it from them; and, i doubt i will ever list any of my software on their website for sale ever again. this is a VERY bad move.

how much was the 'inquisition' of Palm Digital Media? i guess, instead of buying that - why didn't PalmGear pay outstanding monies owed to developers. if this is the case, it just makes matters worse. once again, they are using our (developer) money to fix something they should be using external (investment) money for. its not the developers who should suffer.

PalmSource should have written their own engine.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
frauen1 @ 9/4/2003 9:51:59 AM #
Re: polling developers

Having been involved in setting up a "chat" between developers and PalmSource at the developer seminar last May all I can say is that the PalmSource folks ARE listening to them and doing a pretty good job of it. The problem is that the developers are really not a united community. The big fish have different needs than the small fry and those who are in the middle. And a lot of the smaller developers make decisions as much on emotion as business benefit. (And, again, they have tried - I think Larry Berkin has the patience of a saint here ;) )

RE: Hey Nagel, Berkin, and Mace!!!
The Ugly Truth @ 9/6/2003 12:57:57 PM #
The problem is that the developers are really not a united community. The big fish have different needs than the small fry and those who are in the middle. And a lot of the smaller developers make decisions as much on emotion as business benefit.


Is that really the case, or is it simply easier for PalmGear to take advantage of the "small fry"? How many chances has PalmGear been given over the past five years? At what point should users decide that this company cannot be trusted to behave in an ethical manner? Many would argue that PalmGear ran out of chances to redeem themselves in 2001.

Given the millions Palm has squandered over the years it is baffling to see that they have not bothered to invest a few hundred thousand dollars in setting up a site devoted to showcasing the very thing that makes the Palm platform so useful: the software. A well-designed download site maintained by Palm could easily have been promoted (e.g. include it on billboads, in the Welcome screen on Palms, etc.) and would quickly have been embraced by developers. Once more newbies saw what their Palms could do, they might actually start buying programs and stimulate the much-talked-about "Palm Economy". What would be the downside of such a move by Palm? The expense of a few servers and coding a reliable site? If Palm wanted to avoid getting into the responsibilities associated with handling payments, they could have left this up to individual developers. Yes, this would have resulted in the death of PalmGear +/- Handango, but is that really a bad thing?

Mr. Mace: since you apparently lurk here frequently, I challenge you to lead your company where it needs to go. As it now stands, Palm continues to make misstep after misstep at a time when you can't afford further mistakes. Yes, there's always the buyout by Sony to fall back on, but why not at least try to fix the company on your own? Where is the leadership here? Between Sony's product line, "smartphone" proliferation and the tardiness of development of the Palm/Handspring PDA-phones the future looks somewhat grim. I'll probably buy a Treo 600 (partly as a way of thanking Palm for creating a great platform), but I wonder if there will ever be a second generation of the device.


Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

Palm Digital Media AND Online software store

tddisc @ 9/3/2003 1:48:43 PM #
Not only is PalmGear getting Palm Digital Media, but PalmSource is also giving them their online software store. I wonder what deal PalmGear made or what Handango did to make that happen.

BTW, Kenny West is no longer the CEO of PalmGear, he's the CSO. Ryan K. Wuerch is the CEO, President, and Chairman of the Board so I would guess he's calling the shots.
www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=contact.executiveteam


TD


RE: Palm Digital Media AND Online software store
Qbert @ 9/3/2003 3:37:41 PM #
I think it may have more to do with what Handango HASN'T done which is market for the Palm community. In fact I have not be impressed at all with any of Handango's marketing attemps (if I can recall any) in the past year or so. Simply assuming I'm sure PalmSource was looking for a company that was loyal to their platform and has made attempts (although weak) to market the Palm OS. All Handango seems to be concerned with, from a marketing perspective are ringtones. Good luck with that market which will soon to be run by the music labels themselves.

RE: Palm Digital Media AND Online software store
ptc @ 9/3/2003 5:42:30 PM #
Is Handango definitely out of the loop now? The link to Handango through palm.com's software store still works. And isn't the Handango arrangement through Palm hardware division, not PalmSource?
RE: Palm Digital Media AND Online software store
pdahead @ 9/3/2003 6:05:46 PM #
handango does the palm.com, handspring.com, and sony.com software stores. at one point palmgear ran the palm and handspring ones. they got fired and handango took over. bet the same thing happens again.

i think palmsource were just trying to get rid of PDM before the spinout. it made their books look bad for all the money they were losing. as a developer i am mad that palm would let PG spend the developers money to pay them for PDM. pay us the millions you owe us first palmgear!

hmm... I like this PalmGear + PalmSource deal.

Jacques T @ 9/3/2003 5:51:18 PM #
I use PalmGear.com daily and love it. It is indispensible. It is well organized and gives pertinent information. I welcome this acquisition since it means PalmGear will become more important, stable and offer more titles. I consider PalmGear to be of great quality and to be very important to sustaining what they call the "Palm economy".

RE: hmm... I like this PalmGear + PalmSource deal.
CADJedi @ 9/4/2003 9:53:03 AM #
I'm not a developer but as an end user I like PalmGear alot, I think this will be a good deal for end users. If it wasn't for PalmGear I would never have even heard about alot of the shareware that I have registered. I think they have a great selection of software, their search engine is good, and their people have been helpful and friendly.

Maybe I'm just nostalgic but PalmGear has always been the 1st place I go when I am looking for a new app.

Just my .02 cents!


RE: hmm... I like this PalmGear + PalmSource deal.
reinbeau @ 9/4/2003 12:55:45 PM #
I am an end-user, also. I've used Palmgear for years, because it has the best on-the-face organization (I won't say the same for their search engine, which is still terrible). But when I hear developers crying out for their payments, It makes me think twice, no, many times. Now when I see something on Palmgear, if I want to download it, I'll do a web search and find the developer's page (hopefully) and see if there is another way to pay for it (yes, I pay for everything I put on my Palm or my computer). If Palmgear isn't going to pay the developers in a timely manner, they'll stop developing, and I wouldn't have all this wonderful software to use!

Besides all that, where is my money going when I do pay Palmgear? Obviously there's some bad management going on there. Hopefully they can pull themselves together, but until I hear the developers are happy, I won't be going through Palmgear for software.

**************************************
Ann - happily using her Garmin iQue3600

Is history in the past?

Griff @ 9/4/2003 12:25:07 AM #
OK, I admit two things.

1. I am a member of the PalmGear Leadership Team formed sometime in July.

2. Had this announcement been made 2 months ago, I'd likely be in with those posting negative comments.

I'll also state that I've said a few times in public that I joined the PGTL as a skeptical member and that if I saw the team as a place just to market themselves I'd quit. Well, over a month later and I'm still with the team.

I think all of the comments I've seen can be linked to Palm Gear's history, and I wonder at what point we must leave history in the past and move forward.

1. Developers aren't being paid...What? From everything I've heard both from PG and various developers I've spoken with, payments are going out as scheduled. A number of developers chose to take settlements to get cash in hand rather than waiting. The deals for the most part consisted of some percentage of payment and advertising at PG. My understanding is that those who've not been paid have not updated their details with PG and PG wasn't able to contact them. If any developer still hasn't been paid, they should likely contact PG, or if they have and not heard response post here. The point is that there are accusations that developers are still owed money from months back...can any developers confirm this?

2. PalmGear has no business expanding their business when they have developers to pay. OK, for the sake of argument we'll assume PG does still have a ton of developers who are due payment from more than 3 months ago. Given that, has anyone considered that PG may have secured financing to make this deal? They may have indeed gone to a bank, stated their expansion plans, and gotten money that they must use for the specific purpose stated to get the loan. Is this wrong? I personally don't think so. You see all sorts of businesses expand as they struggle to keep their current business running and profitable. If businesses hadn't done this throughout history, the US would not be the power it is today.

3. Palmgear is taking away developer rights by removing website information and requiring them to post their PG software index in the about box. OK, am I the only one who knew Handango was doing this over a year ago? I remember specific posts in one of the groups I follow where the developer indicated he had to have a special version just for Handango. Perhaps this has changed, developers, please let me know if it has. Also, I'd be hard pressed to find a developer website anywhere at Handango.

On a personal note, I actually understand why companies such as PG or HDG would want themselves to be the place to purchase if an application was downloaded at their site. It does cost money to provide the bandwidth for a download, why would any company wish the customer to then go somewhere else to purchase?

That said, I've said a few times that some company needs to create a way for developers to purchase listing space and take the downloads and billing issues into their own operations. So far the only mention of anything similar to this was sent to developers in the August newsletter. I'm not sure how public this information is supposed to be, so won't say more, but it sounds like a positive step to me.

4. PG has lost track of my downloads...they will screw up my eBooks...etc. etc. This may be the place I agree with folks. PG had a horrible time putting in their new systems. As an IT guy myself the troubles they faced required firings after the fact. There was and is no excuse for what happened during the upgrade and if it were my IT shop, it wouldn't have happened. So it wasn't my shop and we have all dealt with IT departments that are either run by non-business thinking IT types, or business types who think they are IT types. Is it an excuse, no, but it is my way of understanding what happened.

My hope is that PG has learned from that fiasco and will bring in a better IT consultant/project manager in their effort to merge PDM's systems with its own. Hmm, I happen to be available at the moment. ;-)

5. Palm Reader for PPC will stop being made. I'm not sure I saw anywhere in the release where it said PalmSource will stop programming the reader software. It is entirely possible that PalmSource will still produce the reader programs and list them on the PalmGear site. In fact what was of note to me is that PalmGear will license from PalmSource the right to use the PalmGear name...hmm?

6. PalmSource made a big mistake in choosing PalmGear. Well, may be, the fact is no one will know for at least a year from now. I think the decision was wise considering the stagnation of Handango recently. They also might have considered the Pa1mOne/Handango affiliation and decided to try to boost competition in the PalmOS software market. I think that is an admirable thing actually.

I think I addressed most of it. Take it as you will. A bit of background I guess since this is my first post here. I'm a PalmOS user from the early days, back in late '97 to be exact. I've moved from the PalmPro, to the upgraded PalmPro, IIIx, and now my Clie NR70v. My first software purchase was Datebk3 from PalmGear in January of '98. I was a bit outspoken and even quoted at CNet last year during the Iambic stunt and tend to participate heavily in different development forums including the datebook support group and shadow-discuss group at Yahoo. I even still hold a bit of a grudge against Handango because of the lawsuit; remember that? It's ok, I go there again and have been able to put history in the past.

You will also find me over at ClieSource most days, PDA Avenue as of late and Turcic.com once in a while. I jumped in here after seeing a post by one of your regular members who was a bit upset at the level the commentary had reached here. I thought I'd jump in and give one of my team members a hand.

Griff, PG Team Leader at PalmGear.com
PG Team Leaders are not paid employees of PalmGear.com. The views expressed may not represent those of PalmGear.com.

RE: Is history in the past?
rzr @ 9/4/2003 1:26:46 AM #
Griff:

Here's my take on some of your points:

1. "Developers aren't being paid...The point is that there are accusations that developers are still owed money from months back...can any developers confirm this?" Indeed. I can confirm that since I chose to receive 100% of my amount due, I am being paid for earnings I should have earned in Jan-May of 2002 beginning in January 2003 (this year) and lasting through January of 2006! (yes, that's right. Three years. Thirty-six months!) I will not be paid fully for my earnings from the first half of 2002 until, count them, THREE-AND-A-HALF YEARS later.

2. "...the US would not be the power it is today." Nor would we have Enron, Martha Stewart, or global warming. Hey, business is business. But bad business is bad business.

3. "Palmgear is taking away developer rights by removing website information and requiring them to post their PG software index in the about box....Handango." This isn't about how bad Handango is. You know what? Handango is also wrong. Developers should have the right to have their own website on their software and on their link pages. They should be able to point to their own FAQ or support pages, their manuals, their additional products. If PalmGear isn't going to provide the support themselves, those links should be available. Hey, if I'm going to put a link back to PalmGear on my site, or in my About box, the least they can do is return the favor. (I noticed you only compared these policies to Handango, and no other popular download sites, like PDAGreen. Being just as bad as your competition is not the answer.)

Further, the "About" box thing isn't just bad because of the exclusivity of PalmGear hijacking my About box and dictating what I can say there...It's bad because it takes time cutting multiple versions of software. It's bad enough that we have to cut or develop special versions for Clies, hi-res, lo-res, Sony sound, Palm sound, Tapwave widescreen, Handera, etc...Now we also have to have multiple versions of those multiple versions for every place we want to upload our software? If some technical whiz at PalmGear wants to provice me with a utility that automatically seeks out my standardized About box and fills in the correct information, making this process painless, I'll consider supporting such a policy. But when the penalty is actually a threat to CHARGE ME $2 per download, I think someone had stepped over a line. (Who works for who, exactly?)

4. Since you agree, I won't comment. ;-)

5. Don't care.

6. "PalmSource made a big mistake in choosing PalmGear." Time, indeed, will tell. And I guess we'll also see how many Leadership Team members are still enchanted in that year's time, huh? ;-) Personally, I just wish someone else would come along and do it right and we could put PalmGear out of its misery for good. (Which is not to say PalmGear couldn't turn itself around. It could. But it has a lot of things to undo, a lot of crow to eat, and a lot of people to win back, myself included.)

Best,
rzr

RE: Is history in the past?
The Ugly Truth @ 9/4/2003 4:01:57 AM #
History repeats.

RE: Is history in the past?
Battloid @ 9/4/2003 4:13:07 AM #
I whole-heartedly agree with you, rzr, I couldn't have said it better myself.

And January 2006 will come around so soon won't it? Then we'll be able to spend all our hard earned cash that is in all ways ours - but not with Palmgear, eh boys and girls? ;-)


RE: Is history in the past?
ardiri @ 9/4/2003 7:54:14 AM #
nothing good can ever come out of PalmGear. period.

if some of you even knew how i saw they were being run back in 2000 when i was doing some consultancy work for them - you would never want to even deal with them. as for PalmGear not having money? in 2000 Kenny had a nice HDTV with all nice surround sound and so forth and had no problem showing me his house / collection of cars and what not.. in the years i have dealt with ESD companies - i have simply chosen to not use them at all.

1. ESD rates have gone from 20% ---> 30 - 60%
2. ESD was great before when you had exposure
- now you have to pay for exposure
- there are too many new/updated products
- you get easily lost in the 'community'
3. ESD have started taking away developer rights
4. you can never find what you want on an ESD

we solely operate our online store through Esellerate.net - a great service which ONLY takes 10-15%, depending on the sales volumes you are having. they also pay on time, and, have great features (make PGHQ/Handango look shameful). if you are a developer, forget ESD's - focus your efforts on setting up your OWN stores.. and, use discussion boards/websites like this to promote your products.. PIC is always known for running stories about new products/giving reviews..

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

RE: Is history in the past?
mclove @ 9/4/2003 8:24:56 AM #
I'm afraid I agree with pretty much every anti-PG comment posted here. I think what we really need is a developer-controlled online software catalog, some sort of a co-op type organization that does nothing but operate an fair and well-run catalog website; no special ads or placement, free freeware listings, and all the external links you like for a flat monthly fee and possibly a reasonable extra charge for download hosting. It would be owned by the developers who used it and any extra profit at the end of the year would be reinvested in the site or returned to them. It seems to me like the only real function of PalmGear and Handango these days is to provide a centralized place for people to find Palm software (something still rather difficult with a Google search), so if we could provide that functionality we can leave it to developers to set up their own billing etcetera.

Once this site had gotten sufficiently large we could start making a case to PalmSource and maybe even the hardware vendors that this was the most developer-friendly option out there and that they should drop support for Handango or PalmGear and adopt our site instead. I suppose once we had the cooperative set up it could also perform some other collective bargaining type functions.

Does anyone think this is an idea worth pursuing?

Oh, and ardiri mentioned esellerate, another option for real penny-pinchers is to set up your own merchant account and put it in a Yahoo Store; for a total of about $73/month for the account and the store plus standard credit card processing fees (which I think are hovering around 2.5% plus $0.30 per transaction) you get a secure online store that can upload transaction info to your own website for order fulfillment (and offers rudimentary ESD functionality of its own for free).

RE: Is history in the past?
Griff @ 9/4/2003 12:14:15 PM #
I wish we had a way to quote here...thank you for your comments rzr...I'll try to respond to them from my point of view.

1. "Developers aren't being paid"..."I am being paid for earnings I should have earned in Jan-May of 2002 beginning in January 2003 (this year) and lasting through January of 2006! (yes, that's right. Three years. Thirty-six months!)"

This does concern me. I had no idea that some of the payment arrangements were made through 2006. Are you at least getting interest on these?

2. "...the US would not be the power it is today." Nor would we have Enron, Martha Stewart, or global warming. Hey, business is business. But bad business is bad business.

Hey, I think you're convicting Martha before she's had her day in court. Yes, there have been some really badly run businesses of late, but you have to look at the 99% of businesses that are being run well. PalmGear is not stealing the retirement money of it's developers. It may be delaying payment, and I agree that is not a good thing, but it is not fair to put PalmGear in the company of Enron, Worldcomm, etc.

3. "Palmgear is taking away developer rights"...
This is not about how bad Handango is, but for some reason people have chosen to attack PG and not even bother to realize that they are doing some of the same things as HDG. I would wager that had HDG not gone to this method, PG wouldn't have either...no matter because that's not what's important.

I totally understand why PG and HDG put in these policies. They do make sense from a business standpoint. That said, yes, I probably would do things a bit differently. As I mentioned, someone needs to offer a listings only service.

I wonder, if websites and whatnot were allowed to be put back in the listings/about dialogs as long as you agreed not to sell software from your site, would you agree? If you were in Kenny's shoes, how would you handle the cost of people downloading software from your site only to go purchase on another site?

The point is that sure things may be able to be rethought and done better, but given how the market is, is it fair to expect PG to supply unlimited bandwidth to developers only to see purchases directed to a developer's site? Having run a few online services myself, I don't think so.

6. "PalmSource made a big mistake in choosing PalmGear." Time, indeed, will tell. And I guess we'll also see how many Leadership Team members are still enchanted in that year's time, huh? ;-) Personally, I just wish someone else would come along and do it right and we could put PalmGear out of its misery for good. (Which is not to say PalmGear couldn't turn itself around. It could. But it has a lot of things to undo, a lot of crow to eat, and a lot of people to win back, myself included.)

I agree, we will see how the next year plays out. I am very cautious in my role as PGTL because my integrity means alot to me. So far I see a company who really is trying to do better and wants to avoid mistakes of the past. If at any time I feel they are just using the team as a marketing ploy or I see they are really just out to make a quick buck, I'll leave.

I do believe the PGTL is a step in the right direction and will help PG turn itself around. I don't want to see it fail because I hate HDG from a long time ago.

As to the other gentleman who spoke of Kenny's house. I wonder, did Kenny ever say that PG had purchased all of his entertainment equipment for him? Did his collection of cars include Porsches or was it more that he had everyday cars for his family to use?

- Griff, PG Team Leader at PalmGear.com PG
Team Leaders are not paid employees of PalmGear.com. The views expressed may not represent those of PalmGear.com.

RE: Is history in the past?
rzr @ 9/4/2003 1:16:45 PM #
Griff:

1. "...payment arrangements were made through 2006. Are you at least getting interest on these?"

LOL! You gotta be kidding me. Yeah, riiiight.

Keep in mind, also, that at least half of those developers owed money are not getting paid their rightful earnings AT ALL, because they chose to "settle" the outstanding debt and be paid only 50% or even 20%. (50% paid back by early 2004, or 20% paid last December.) That software was bought and paid for by someone, but the developer was not paid his full share.

2. "bad business..."

I apologize to Ms. Stewart. But I think you got my point. I cite the issues of #1 above, as only one sample of PalmGear's business savvy and management sense. (Perhaps someone should check into their retirement plan though...)

3. "PG and HDG ...policies...make sense from a business standpoint. ...if websites and whatnot were allowed to be put back in the listings/about dialogs as long as you agreed not to sell software from your site, would you agree? If you were in Kenny's shoes, how would you handle the cost of people downloading software from your site only to go purchase on another site?"

Well, here's where I think you're all wrong. What is the actual "cost" of people downloading software from PalmGear? Nowhere near 25% of the cost/time I spend developing it. My app takes up a tiny amount of storage space; they're giving me some database software, a search engine, and decent bandwidth.

What else is PalmGear really giving me? Credit card processing? "Unlimited" bandwidth? Really, the main thing is *exposure* and a search engine keyed to Palm software only. We're really mostly paying simply for them acting as a "central repository," thinking people will mostly come to one place to look for cool Palm software and stumble upon our app in and among the thousands listed there. And for that I'm certainly willing to give PalmGear a reasonable cut.

But here's the thing. I can buy my own bandwidth. (And I don't need as much as PalmGear, because I only sell *my* apps.) I can subscribe to a much cheaper service for processing credit cards, or I can use any number of online methods (PayPal, etc.) for accepting payment. So in this case, I'm really *only* paying PalmGear for their central repository theory, assuming they won't find my software through Google or some review at ClieSource or somewhere else. So that "central repository" idea alone better be worth the cut they want, seeing as they didn't help me write my app.

Sure, some of their extra services are nice, and if you don't want to set up your own website or deal with alternate methods of accepting payment, it is probably worth it to let them handle all that for you. I also find some people prefer to use PalmGear for payment; I'll certainly provide them with a link to do that if they want to. Whatever makes it easier for my customers is okay with me.

But if I've gone through the hassle to provide those services on my own site, why shouldn't I get to use them? If people find my product through some other source than PalmGear (say, a favorable review at Cliesource, or PDArcade), why should I direct them to PalmGear to buy it? Why give PalmGear a cut for doing nothing?

And without support/website links at PalmGear, my customers are denied convenient access to support help, technical answers, FAQs, pre-release beta versions, and anything else that might provide a nice service enhancement to them. If they download/purchase from my site, at least they get those.

I realize there isn't really a good scheme to determine who "brought" the buyer to my software. Did they come to me through Google, through PalmGear, through ClieSource, where? Did they download from PalmGear, then buy at my site, or vice-versa? No really good way to know. But I'm willing to let people buy at PalmGear, using a link from my site, if they should choose to, so I think the opposite is fair.

In general, I'd say if people found the software at PalmGear, then 99% of the time they're going to buy it there. Only after PalmGear got the reputation of screwing their developers did people actively seek to pay developers directly. (And who could blame them?) Coincidentally (not), that's when Palmgear got so link-unfriendly and ultimately Nazi-like about their About Box policy. If their reputation wasn't so bad, I'd think they could rely on the good faith principle. Unfortunately, "screw unto others as they have screwed you" seems to apply instead.

The fact is: PalmGear should be *thrilled* to get to list my software (and anyone else's). Not the other way around. They get a big chunk of my income they otherwise would not make. Instead they act like we need them more than they need us. But the fact is: without us, they don't make *anything*.

rzr



RE: Is history in the past? NO!
maven @ 9/4/2003 7:19:53 PM #
"I had no idea that some of the payment arrangements were made through 2006. Are you at least getting interest on these?"

The honorable and correct thing to do would have been to pay reasonable interest rates on the developer money Palmgear "BORROWED" without permission for six months 2002. However, they instead forced developers to accept pennies on the dollar for what they were owed, or required us to accept a 3-year payment plan without interest, which means we are still losing money. We were over a barrel so to speak, and had no choice in the matter. My family relied on the income from sales at Palmgear, but that didn't stop Palmgear from neglecting payment, even though they had received the income.

So, Palmgear can say what it wants about how it has made an agreement with us, and how it has satisfied it's developers, but the fact of the matter is, the developers are still upset because the agreement was done through coercion. The threat was if we refused to accept a loss, Palmgear would just go bankrupt and leave us with nothing. A threat is a threat, no matter how it's presented, and developers don't appreciate it. I think the animosity shown in these forums proves my point.

Now I have another payment problem. For some reason, my payments for the back money due has suddenly dropped to about 60% of what I'm supposed to be receiving every month. The beginning of July, I emailed Ryan and received NO response. So, the beginning of August, I emailed him and Kenny and after a FEW WEEKS, received the response that they would look into it. As of today, I still haven't received any other response. So, Griff, if you can be of help, I'd love to have your help.

If Palmgear were to resolve issues quickly, professionally and with honor, I wouldn't be writing this letter today. I supported them more than most and for as long as I could. Now if I just had an alternative...

-Mike Ethetton
Gambit Studios, LLC
www.gambitstudios.com

"Developers unite!"


RE: Is history in the past?
davidv @ 9/4/2003 9:40:53 PM #
So is anybody interested in setting up a rival software download catalogue/repository.

I run a company that specializes in Digital asset storage and delivery currently aimed at delivering brand assets,high res products images and artwork.

It would be a very simple matter to skin it for palm software delivery AND we link back to contributors as a matter of course. The system does not bill users.

So a user would download a trial and if they want to purchase, they wouldlink back to the software developers site and purchase. That means you developers need to operate your own ecommerce functions/sites? Is that something you want to do. Hey it's not that hard. Process a payment and email an unlockcode for the trial software.

Seize the day and tell these guys (Handango and PG) where to get off.

If you are interested check out our site at www.e-see.com or contact me.

This might sound a little commercial, but I'm willing to help.

This isn't really that hard to do. I'm guessing that most of you could set this up if you were inclined to.

The biggest problem is getting your brand recognized by Palm users and getting them to your site. Perhaps a collective of Palm developers will get somebodys attention at Palm and elsewhere.


dave the rave

TT is an evolutionary product yet still true to the Palm concept.Brilliant.

RE: Is history in the past?
pgovotsos @ 9/5/2003 12:55:16 AM #
You know, the thing about PalmGear that most irritates me now is that I can no longer directly contact the developer of a program from the contact link. This isn't a history issue, it's NOW. If I want to contact the developer directly, I have to download the program, unarchive it, and try to find the contact info. What I do instead now - if I am on PalmGear and find a program of interest, I go to Handango and contact from their listing.
I know this might be a little thing, but it's an unnecessary annoyance. What's wrong with having a developer's email address in the program listing?

Panagiotis

RE: Developer Contact Listing
KennyWest;PalmGear @ 9/5/2003 8:29:04 AM #
RE: "You know, the thing about PalmGear that most irritates me now is that I can no longer directly contact the developer of a program from the contact link. This isn't a history issue, it's NOW. If I want to contact the developer directly, I have to download the program, unarchive it, and try to find the contact info. "

The reason that was removed was due to a large number of developers requesting due to spam robots scraping our site for email addresses. The overwhelming solution requested was usage of a form. Additionally by using a form we can then see what products are getting high numbers of communications and thus identify those developers whose software are having higher than normal support issues. This is in other words, besides stopping the scraping of email addresses from our site, quality control. There have been a few developers whose software consistently caused issues on the Palm OS and after then contacting the submitters we were able to find out that they had not received resolution in a large percentage of the cases. In some instances, after contacting the developer directly of course, a title may have been removed from distribution. The data collected is not used for any other purpose, no email addresses submitted via the cotnact forms are added to any lists, etc., etc. They are only reviewed in other words by us in the aggregate.


RE: Is history in the past?
kezza @ 9/5/2003 11:36:48 AM #

davidv said @ 9/4/2003 9:40:53 PM

> So is anybody interested in setting up a rival software > download catalogue/repository.

Actually, one already exists:

http://www.palmvenue.com

Listing is free, sales are made through a place of the developer's choosing, like their own website or PDAGreen, not PalmVenue.

It's a great site and more developers (and consumers!) should take advantage of it.

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com

RE: Is history in the past?
ardiri @ 9/6/2003 5:35:21 AM #
> The reason that was removed was due to a large number of developers requesting
> due to spam robots scraping our site for email addresses

removing email address is one thing - but, removing a link to the developers website is another. SPAM robots by all means cannot do anything with a http:// link to a website.

there are also other techniques for posting email address:

aaron (at) ardiri (dot) com

and, most people these days know what that means. you can even alter the format on a daily basis to use different brackets/upper/lower case to confuse those SPAM robots.

but, unfortunately, i think the damage has been done.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

Just as PDM was getting good

simond @ 9/4/2003 4:23:35 AM #
I must admit I've been avoiding palmgear for a while now so I wasn't too impressed when I read this story, but having thought about it, it's not too bad, I'll just buy all my ebooks from fictionwise now rather than from both of them, I know palmgear will probably still get some money from the PDM books fictionwise sell, but at least I'll know my bookshelf will be secure :)

(One hope I do have is that PalmGear creates a symbiam version of PalmReader as PDM have no plans to, that may just tempt me into buying some stuff from them!)

RE: Just as PDM was getting good
ardiri @ 9/4/2003 7:59:14 AM #
we have been seriously considering doing an ebook reader ourselves using the SHARK development kit (www.mobilewizardry.com). one of my partner companies, already does this kinda of stuff with medical content - which is known as Dr. Companion (www.drcompanion.com). it wont take long to start doing regular ebooks.. and, yes, it will be on MULTIPLE PLATFORMS.

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

to the developers

madhatter @ 9/4/2003 11:31:17 PM #
I just want to make mention of couple items from a non-developer to adari and other developers who don't like Palmgear..I have purchased over 100 programs over the years, and have been a customer of Palmgear for years.

1. While I don't condone what Palmgear did in not paying developers timely, at least you are getting paid. Palmgear could have gone bankrupt and you would not have received a cent. (or maybe 2 cents on a dollar.) Instead, it is attempting to pay it's past due debts. You chose either to accept 100% and be paid out over time or a lump sum settlement. You did have a say in which method you wish to be paid.

2. The lawsuit brought by Handango was a BS lawsuit that took almost 7 figures to defend. ( I asked)I don't see any developer pulling their software from them as a result... in fact their share of developers increased as a result of the lawsuit... interesting philosophy of doing business. Sue your competition out of business and then be rewarded for it.

3. As far as the "about" portion being designated by Palmgear, you should blame the developers that wanted the advertising offered by Palmgear, but when you clicked on the link to the website, it would give you somewhere else to pay beside Palmgear. They tried to bypass the fee charged by Palmgear, and so spoiled it for the rest of you.

4. Finally, if you don't want to use Palmgear, then don't. Set up your own website, set up your own payment system, and refund program, and customer service department, and buy the bandwidth and do it yourself. Let's see how much of a profit you have after you pay for all of it. I won't spend a lot of time looking for it. I have done more then my share in supporting the developers of the Palm platform, and will continue to do so, but quit Palmgear bashing.. it does not endear the customer to buying your software.. on any website.

A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

RE: to the developers
ardiri @ 9/5/2003 6:26:28 AM #
> at least you are getting paid.

no, i am not getting paid. we relied solely on PGHQ for our sales/distribution - and, when they stopped paying us, we sought other methods for selling - and, pulled all our products for sale from PGHQ website.

since then, we have not received a PENNY for the money owed to us.

> Palmgear could have gone bankrupt and you would not have received a cent.

see my above comment - i have not received a cent.

> Instead, it is attempting to pay it's past due debts.
> You chose either to accept 100% and be paid out
> over time or a lump sum settlement. You did have
> a say in which method you wish to be paid.

actually, i have never been provided the paperwork for this - and, the 100% acceptance crap means we wont see our money for a long time; and, when the money was owed to us, the exchange rate was $1 US = 11 Sek, now, since the economy in the US shat itself, its more like $1 US = 8.5 Sek. see there is a HUGE loss just by currency exchange happening there. since the payments are to be provided at 100% - we effectively get 70-75% of what we were owed.. ie: A LOSS.

> 2. The lawsuit brought by Handango was a BS lawsuit that took
> almost 7 figures to defend. ( I asked)I don't see any
> developer pulling their software from them as a result...

i did. and, the bottom line - if it cost 7 figures - why didn't Kenny West seek assistance from an investor to help fight the lawsuit? why did he use the money which was supposed to be paid to developers to defend the case? this was totally un-ethical, and, it seems that the purchase from PalmSource once again, is using developer money.

PGHQ take X% from the cost of the sale, regardless, that 100-X% should go to the developer, the X% they can use for whatever they like.. such as purchasing assets/defending lawsuits.. whatever..

if you want to argue that if they couldn't fight the lawsuit - well, think of it another way. the developers still would have gotten the 100-X%, and, if PGHQ went bankrupt, the developers would list software elsewhere. ie: only purson hurt here is PalmGear, not the developers..

> They tried to bypass the fee charged by Palmgear, and
> so spoiled it for the rest of you.

we were selling exclusively on PalmGear, how did we spoil this?

> 4. Finally, if you don't want to use Palmgear, then don't.

we dont.. as a result, we also recommend to other developer not to get involved with them in any way possible - they screwed us once, and, they will do it again and again and again!

> Set up your own website, set up your own payment system,

it doesn't cost as much as you say - and, quite frankly, it works for us.. it helps to have a well known name of course - i feel real sorry for the new developers starting to come into the market.


// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

RE: to the developers
madhatter @ 9/5/2003 8:09:05 AM #
"why didn't Kenny West seek assistance from an investor to help fight the lawsuit? why did he use the money which was supposed to be paid to developers to defend the case? this was totally un-ethical, and, it seems that the purchase from PalmSource once again, is using developer money"

No investor that I have ever been made aware of will invest money simply to defend a lawsuit. That is the problem with our society.. sue the competition out of business. Until we adopt "loser pays" laws in the corporate world, we will never have a fair system.

You do not know that Palmgear is using developer money. You are just assuming that they are. It is much more likely that an investor did come in and put money into this venture.. if so, they have a right to designate how that money is invested. Usually an idea is presented to an investor, and the investor has agrees and fronts the money. Your company does not have a right to change the agreement and pay past due bills with it.

"no, i am not getting paid. we relied solely on PGHQ for our sales/distribution - and, when they stopped paying us, we sought other methods for selling - and, pulled all our products for sale from PGHQ website."

You decided to pull your software out of the PGHQ. Do you think that would put you at the top of the repayment list. I think more likely you would go to the bottom, and the people who decide to stick it out with the company would be the first ones to benefit. I am sure you will eventually be paid, but I can't blame the company for taking care of the developers who stick with them first.

"we were selling exclusively on PalmGear, how did we spoil this?"

Not all developers were exclusive to Palmgear. I remember clicking on a link and was provided with 2 additional links to pay, one back to palmgear, and one somewhere else. I am not saying all developers were doing this, but a few were and you should blame them for the changes in the rules.

"... as a result, we also recommend to other eveloper not to get involved with them in any way possible - they screwed us once, and, they will do it again and again and again!"

I seem to remember certain developers who took heat on this website for certain methods of advertising and certain software which was distributed accidently. I remember the hue and cry. I agree that Palmgear should be chastised. But, can you imagine if everyone adopted the attitude of "they will do it again and again" against those developers... I think they deserve a chance to make it right.. and it appears they are trying to....

A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

RE: to the developers
ardiri @ 9/5/2003 8:53:15 AM #
> No investor that I have ever been made aware of will invest
> money simply to defend a lawsuit. That is the problem
> with our society.. sue the competition out of business.
> Until we adopt "loser pays" laws in the corporate world, we
> will never have a fair system.

the discussion here is not on the american society - but, specifically in regards to PalmGear and it not paying developers the money that is owed to them.

the fact that lawsuits and lawyers seems to rule in the american society doesn't really provide the innocent people any protection against such a thing.

> You do not know that Palmgear is using developer money. You are just
> assuming that they are.

actually, if i do recall correctly, PalmGear did publically admit that they could not pay developers the monies owing because they had to defend a lawsuit from their competitors. that, in itself tells me where our money went.. where else did it go? to guy a nice big car for Kenny West? do you realize how much money flows through PalmGear on a monthly basis? their turn over rate per month is definately in the six-figure basis. they *are* making money, but, how much salary does Kenny et al need? and, these get paid first.

> Usually an idea is presented to an investor, and the investor has agrees
> and fronts the money. Your company does not have a right to change
> the agreement and pay past due bills with it.

of course - but, maybe they shouldn't be putting these types of deals in place while they still have outstanding issues to resolve. this is exactly why they get a reaction like they have here - they need to settle all current dues first, then, worry about how to move forward.

> You decided to pull your software out of the PGHQ. Do you think
> that would put you at the top of the repayment list. I think more
> likely you would go to the bottom.

and, that my friend is discrimination. the money is owed one way or another - it doesn't matter that you currently continue to work with them.

i know quite a few 'bigger cheeses' in the palm community - and, these are people who have the potential to sue PalmGear for late payments. these people actually received payments while the smaller fry (independent/hobbyists) did not yet paid.

> Not all developers were exclusive to Palmgear.

we were - shouldn't that put us higher in the list of 'payee's?

> I seem to remember certain developers who took heat on this website
> for certain methods of advertising and certain software which was
> distributed accidently.

PalmGear needs a totally new management structure. if those people dont remember Ryan, he isn't mr. perfect either. a number of people i know also consider him another Kenny West. the change of management maybe got a bit better - but, not entirely.

while i understand that PalmGear made a mistake, and, are trying to resolve issues - they are going about it the wrong way. it is one thing to pay back developers, and, they have been offering advertising in exchange for monies owed - and, most people have taken that up. the money that is still owed is getting paid back very slowly, and, without interest. this is a bad thing, at least give minimal bank rates.. like 1-2%.. to cover losses in delayed payments.

the problem now is that even with the re-organization, developers are still not getting their payments on a timely fashion - and these are "last months" payments. if you are a developer, and, being part of the commerce market is an interest to you, i would recommend signing up for the PEF forum.

i do business myself - and, PalmGear is cutting corners at every opportunity, and, picking who they want to have fights with on a personal basis. you dont see companies who sell a lot of products complaining - its mainly all the shareware/hobby guys who are not getting their money.. now, if only all the shareware/hobby community would join together and start a lawsuit against PalmGear - i wonder if Handango would sponsor?

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

RE: to the developers
The Ugly Truth @ 9/5/2003 10:23:31 AM #
I seem to remember certain developers who took heat on this website for certain methods of advertising and certain software which was distributed accidently. I remember the hue and cry. I agree that Palmgear should be chastised. But, can you imagine if everyone adopted the attitude of "they will do it again and again" against those developers... I think they deserve a chance to make it right.. and it appears they are trying to....


Yes, Mr. Ardiri has an unusually shady past. Ironically, the money he and Maven are owed is primarily for software that promotes illegal use/trading of unlicensed programs. Furthermore, he has shown that he still has no respect for the intellectual property of other developers and that he will do whatever he pleases in order to promote his own products. (See Mr. Ardiri's Bejeweled clone for Exhibit 1.)

All of this does not detract from the fact that PalmGear has essentially stolen money from Mr. Ardiri and the other developers that naively trusted them to fulfill their responsibility to returnn the previously-promised percentage of funds already paid to PalmGear by software purchasers.

There is honor among thieves, and PalmGear is behaving in a most dishonorable manner. For Palm to have joined up with this crowd - instead of spending a little time building their own download site from the ground up - is inexcusable. Palm has the resources to create a PalmGear clone with minimal effort (it's really not that difficult) and this would have shown the developer community that they are committed to supporting developers. Instead Palm took the path of least resistance (again) and have tarnished their name further.

No doubt Mr. Mace et. al. feel they made the correct decision given their options at the time. Perhaps only a minority of developers will feel alienated by Palm and actually do something about what has happened. Only time will tell.

RE: to the developers
ardiri @ 9/5/2003 8:03:05 PM #
oh.. it didn't take long for the trolls to return.

PS: emulation is *legal*

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

Ethics 101 revisited
The Ugly Truth @ 9/6/2003 12:16:56 PM #
oh.. it didn't take long for the trolls to return.

PS: emulation is *legal*

It's nice to see that you still haven't matured. Your man-child act continues to be so endearing to us all.

Emulation is legal, but is it legal to steal ROMs for use with these (your) emulators? Of course you can glibly reply that you don't steal the ROMs - it's the purchsasers of your software that do so. That little fact makes it ok, right? It's also legal to sell lock picks because they may be used by the owners of the locks to gain entry into their houses. Whether or not thieves use such tools to steal the intellectual/physical property of others should be (and obviously isn't) of concern to you.

Is it legal for you to release clones on Nintendo's programs? What did Nintendo's legal department tell you about this?

Is it legal for you to clone and then give away a version of Bejeweled in a desperate attempt to gain support for your development platform?

Furthermore, is it ethical for you to do any of the above? Is it ethical for you to release an application that lets users "register" most Palm sofrtware using the regcodes of others? Do you know the meaning of the word ethics? I would suggest you sit down with your parents and discuss what you have done over the years and ask their honest opinion as to whether or not your behaviour has been inappropriate. Perhaps with time you will learn, but many of us are now starting to doubt this. You are a gifted programmer, Mr. Ardiri, but any company with an iota of common sense would avoid you like the plague because of your apparent inability to make ethical decisions.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that PalmGear took your (and everyone else's) money. But perhaps this will give you some empathy for other developers and companies who have had to deal with the consequences of what you have done over the years.

Pot, kettle, black. Write this on the top of your monitor and please try to be more considerate of the livelihood of others.




Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

RE: to the developers
ardiri @ 9/7/2003 6:38:50 AM #
> Emulation is legal, but is it legal to steal ROMs for use with these (your) emulators?

good question - there are many legal ways to obtain the ROM's; and, regardless of this - its not our issue to worry about. emulation is legal - without emulation being legal, you wouldn't have developer tools such as POSE (PalmOS Emulator) or, be even able to play games that are no-longer being released. do you play MAME? i guess they should be sued/brought down at the same time hey?

> Is it legal for you to release clones on Nintendo's programs? What did Nintendo's legal
> department tell you about this?

clones are legal. use of trademarked characters (donkey kong and mario) is not. Nintendo showed me that they had of course trademarked these and as a result, i removed the software. now, if i did a new version, with different characters/graphics - it would be 100% legal.

> Is it legal for you to clone and then give away a version of Bejeweled in a
> desperate attempt to gain support for your development platform?

desperate? have you seen the bejeweled clone?
we have been so busy with the new development platform that we haven't even had a chance to finish the demo. and, there are many bejeweled clones out there, many free, some CHARGE for it.

so, how about grilling those people as well?

next thing i'll hear is that will grill mobile wizardry about having a tetris clone, which was in fact developed by one of our partners who just licensed our multi platform engine. time to start pushing the blame/flames elsewhere buddy.

i surely must be #1 on the 'lets troll someone' list - i doubt my position has really moved down since it all started back in 2000. i guess that tells you something as well, regardless how much you troll, i wont be going away. our development efforts please more people than we annoy. and, this is the Internet, expect to get flamed/ridiculed - freedom of speech some call it.

flaming is just another way to give us more PR. the more PR we get, the more attention/sales we make. for every comment you post, we potentially make a few dollors.. thanks :)

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

RE: to the developers
helf @ 9/8/2003 11:56:11 AM #
Rofl!

One thing about roms.. Who is still making money fron 7+ year old game boy pocket games(besides gameboy junk stores)? Say it with me. "Nooo ooone." See? I thought you could do it.

And there are a million bejeweled clones out there. Why do people (especially you, ugly) bring up just MW demo game?

You trolls just don't think logically...

/me puts on flame retardant suit.

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