Comments on: Palm Powered Devices Have Less Support Problems

Even though I babied those PPC, they had problems, unlike my Palms, which have been much more rugged.

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So true! A few years ago, I was using a Casio EG-800 'ruggedized' PPC (check out this big ol' beast: http://www.pocketpcmag.com/images/CasioEG-800.jpg). It cost $1400 cdn at the time - almost double the non-ruggedized version (it was basically a rugged E125). I dropped it 3 feet unto carpeted floor and it died (im not making this up!). If i had a buck for every time my old Palm Vx was subjected to the same or greater torture (in some cases MUCH greater) and lived, i'd be rich.

At least in the USA and Canade there has been a major recall. check www.cliesource.com and www.clie-link.com
for further info

home is where my computer is...

One gives the normal canned conehead response "Well it's the one with the most MIPS, mhz and throughput etc etc". As users get up and down from using the Mac, they more discerning manager says "But, you know a lot more people use the Mac than the PC". Immediately, the conehead says boldly, "Yeah, but that's an unfair comparison ... PEOPLE LIKE USING THE MAC". Then the two managers stare at each other in the amazement of epiphany!

Enough said about why Palm.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Oh stop. They don't suck. Not completely. Nor are PalmOS devices Manna from Heaven.

PalmOS 6 had Better Be Something Amazing, is all I can say... it's the culmination of *years* of PalmOS user frustrations. And if they don't please the living hell out of us, there will be war.

Sharpening my WMDs...

What will WinMob04 require? 1GHz XXXScale just to get past the logo screen?

MobyWin? Ahoy! That's one big piece of bloatware, Jack Sparrow! You're gonna need alot of wind in your sails to get past the logo!

I couldn't help it. I was watching Pirates of the Caribean again.

BUT, I'm still banking that Palm OS 6 will STILL be a better platform than M$.

Not *that* expensive.

For just $50 more than the T3, you can get an hp 41xx with BT *and* WiFi built-in. (For $100 *less*, you can get one w/o WiFi -- the 1945!)

One can use the "But it doesn't have a 320x480 screen!" argument -- but that alleged "high res plus" screen is *still* only showing as much text as the *original* 160x160 screen (L->R).

And the hp 41xx is smaller and sleeker than the T3.

How odd that the *true* successor to the Palm V series is from hp and runs PPC OS!

Apple has been original. The iPod broke new ground. They've made many things very user-friendly, even if those ideas rested on the foundation of PARC's originality; they also went beyond PARC in many ways. MS has yet to catch up to Apple.

But, geez, no floppy with the iMac...?

As for PPC and Palm... I like PPC's Tap&Hold. I also like the way I can copy/paste **GOBS** of text w/o fear of crashing. Bloody hell, trying to edit simple DOCs on my CLIE above *20K* is like defusing a freaking bomb! OTOH, Palm has reliable PIM alarms (hear that, ska?!)...

Gee, guess that includes Apple since they are even more monopolistic than Microsoft.

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My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

I *loved* it when a Palm could run on a couple of dry cell batteries. Very usable. Now, if my Palm drains while on a long flight, I'm S.O.L.

Yeah yeah, I know. It's not "multit-asking" as such. but it amounts to the same thing in practical terms, and isn't everyday use what matters in the end?

My point it that at the multi-tasking bone is a nice one to throw, and I guess a true one in the true sense of the word. But when it comes down to everyday use, it does just that as far as the end user is concerned. My treo 600 can pick up mail in the background if I so desire it to, and then I can switch back and browse. I can receive a phone call and talk to the person on the other end and check out my calender (using either the speaker phone or the ear buds of course!) I can listen to MP3's, write an email and get interupted by a call or a text message.

Though not officially multi-tasking... It seems to be doing a pretty good job of it to me...

But hey, what do I know?!

Silliness. I've had no 'multithreading issues' using PPC software before, even with the most rudimentary apps. Not as simple as Palm, perhaps -- but not rocket science.

The palm (or PPC) has a small screen and can only display one app at a time to decently use it at all. Palm already have events that apps can use to hook on and perform tasks (eg alarms etc).

As the phoenix said, what really matters is what the user ultimately experience.

Palm apps (that are written according to the proper palm design) should store its states when the user selects one of the hard buttons or the sillkscreen buttons or power off. In some apps, the design may be to close the app or something while in others (like memopad), the current state is saved.

When the app is relaunched, the app will reload any existing information or state stored and display to the user the app as it last appeared. With some exceptions, most palm apps are doing this nicely (thanks to the simple way of doing this provided by the SDK!).

As a result, the end-user gets the same (or similar) experience as in the case if the OS is multi-tasked.

I'm sure there are those who want their memo-pad to continue to use up preciouse CPU cycles in the background and perhaps respond to some ghost-user input as well, but with the screen real-estate of the palm (or PPC), most apps do not need to do anything once it is in the background.

"Have a Nice day unless you have other plans" - Quoted from Buddhist Literature

So the proper way to architect multitasking on a PDA would be to provide enough background thread/task support for comms/media/security, etc., but not so much as to encourage lazy programmers to write more apps which just waste memory spinning in the background.

http://geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Dec/bpd20031223023206.htm

http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=1815

http://brighthand.com/article/Survey_Palm_OS_Users_Have_Fewer_Problems

Now are you going to go whiiiiinnnne over there?

Oh, and check out the spin on that article especially *here*:

http://www.newmobilecomputing.com/story.php?news_id=3601

You should send that site an award for their -- cough!cough! -- objectivity!

It's *very* interesting that pocketnow and ppcthoughts and ppcpassion do *not* cite the article. How very very very very VERY interesting! Don't you think so?

"Disclaimer: while we sympathize with Microsoft´s efforts in cell phone industry, we are however interested in long-term success of Microsoft powered cell phones (Microsoft Smartphone and Pocket PC Phone Edition), that is why we are revealing problems, rather than hiding them... Several websites that are being run by so called MVPs (Microsoft Valued Professionals) are not allowed to publish such information, but we, being an indepentent publication, can do it! Watch msmobiles.com regularly for more revealing stories about Microsoft powered cell phones! You will not find such stories elsewhere because either people are totally anti-Microsoft and understand Microsoft technologies only superficially, or are restricted by Microsoft and cannot publish such stories. We can."

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/1870.html

Now, let's see... aren't the webmasters of ppcthoughts, ppcpassion, and pocketnow MS MVPs?

"...or are restricted by Microsoft and cannot publish such stories."

Oh, I see now! Thank you, Big Brother!

(Let's see someone from palmOne or PalmSource try to get away with sh*t like that *here*. Won't happen!)

Now please put your tail between your hind legs and scram.

There are reasons for each platform. Even the Linuxed Zaurus.

But neither of those two match the simplicity or the *reliability* of PalmOS's PIMs.

That's is PalmOS's strength -- and maybe its downfall too...

Here's another theory: Palm devotees love to claim a kind of quasi political/ethical superiority by swearing off Microsoft powered PDAs (despite their dependence and investment in desktop MS software). When a PPC pops up with a new feature, they firmly and with piety that would make the Pope cringe, proclaim that feature to be frivolous or unnecessary. This was true of, let's see... Color, high res screens, expansion memory, swappable Lithium batteries, MP3 playback, headphone jacks, multimedia, d-pads... etc. -- I've already seen some of the more hardcore Palm fans dismissing VGA on a handheld as 'excessively high resolution'. LOL!

C'mon, fellow geeks... We're all sort of on the same team, anyway. Merry Christmas and may all your presents be PALMS! ;)

until you post your NX launchers, and it shows 80% of your apps are games! (I am still laughing)

----- now for this "support problem".

ah, but you have front page material to bash PPC. :) You think you can get away with it. hah...

>>> Too bad you didn't supply an URL. Was he again *referencing* an article posted elsewhere?

Upi mean like this? (of course it has been down lately since PPC marketshare start to look seriously big compared to back in the days, a year ago)
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4562

>>> Well, if Steve is to be believed, Ed is happily using a Toshi GENIO now.
Steve will say anything as long as it's a paying customer. Ed is a total pamiehead. He'll pull a stunt of double standard and put different weight on headlines just to make Palm sounds ok. (eg. he wrotes 3-5 mention on Dell late releasing OS update, while didn't make a peep about SD debacle until 3 weeks later after developer confirmation and after that only menation "palm need user help" instead of Palm screwing up like he would in Dell/PPC case. (there are plenty more examples)

>PIMS: Palm - excellent, PPC - awful

BS! open a forum thread and make your case! (or is this similar hogwash claim like PALM has excellent battery life, PPC sucks. But strangely no palm users dare to post battery log for straight up comparison. lol. let's do this pal. feature by feature, tap by tap, data by data)

>>> I've made that point to Ryan in private emails many times. "Are all PIC users Mac owners? Don't they use Windows? What's this bizarre schizo hatred?"

It's a simple case, palm1o fan would make up myth and spin and bash PPC performance. Are you denying you didn't do it? lol. Your article are still on database pal, it CONTAINS factual error. And AFAIK, it ha been retracted or corrected.

but keep it up there, I like free entertainment. Each year as POS stumbling into the same path PPC has gone thourh. I'll do my "I told you so" poke in the eyes. And you, my dear, is going to eat a lot of crow next year.

Huh? You quite your consulting job because "they" (I'm assuming you mean your employer) adopted Pocket PC? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You're either making that story up, or you are the most irrational and unprofessional consultant ever to leave the biz.

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My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

yeah right. You must be the only one on the planet who has PPC that can accept HWR input on the slider. lol. Even Bosco quit posting around a link to that article after figuring out how wacky the article claims are.

>>> Ryan sent me that article to proof before he ran it. I pointed out several things I disagreed with and several things I thought he shouldn't state because he'd wind up looking foolish later. He chose to ignore me. Eh.

Two fools don't amount to much.

>> http://tinyurl.com/yqy7t
Read it, ska. Edumacate yourzizzle.

Excuse me sir. That article is dated november 2000. LOL
isn't it a bit... ehrr ancient?

eg. Bug me has been ported to PPC since then, PI and AF also weren't available around that time. Most of PPC apps mentioned on that article are either defunk, receive major upgrades, or have been replaced with more superior alternative.

but amusingly enough, the apps for Palm haven't changed much.

oh wait, wait must be that Palm multimedia they are now so enamored with. grafitti invention? Xerox begs to differ apparently. Thumboard? Well RIMM sued and won.

The original Palm pilot I can give you, but since then?

please Bosco. let's be serious, Palm isn't even the first one putting integrated BT on handheld despite making the first noise and big one at that too.

After years of chest thumping, now reality is coming down hard on inferior palm product. And all you can do is scream....I am gonna sue you, I am gonna sue you. blow up doll, blow up doll...

okay. How about giving me convincing evidence that Palm is really superior. (hell at least mikecane tries, thos pathetically enough an article from 11/200. That's practically before the last ice age.)

very cute Bosco, mister Palm expert. I have to test your so alled are of expertise soon. The web app app you say?

Seriously, I'm one of those who have owned both and have seen good and bad on both sides. However, there are a couple of comments that are incorrect I'd like to throw my opinion at. This does not mean I'm bashing anythin, as I provide support for both platforms as well.

"What Palm achievement? 2.5 hrs battery? stretch screen? frying SDcard? or that ever so usefull Palm SDIO slot?"

Obvious referrence to the T3: After the ROM update, most T3's get 4 to 6 hours continous runtime. Not stellar, but being a compact device it has a small battery. Fitting a 400Mhz processor in something smaller than a Palm V (except thickness) has it's penalty, but it's not 2.5 hours.

The stretch screen actually works out well for the users I know (mostly doctors and teachers). Small form factor unless you want all that screen area, which is only a click away. I personally do not think that having to reset a PPC to change orientation is the right way to do things. Palm got this feature right despite lacking a standard API at release time.

In regards to the frying SD cards, I was in there with the rest about the T3 being a card toaster. Although Palm never gave the internal details of their fix, I thinks it's safe to say the SanDisk SD card controllers could not handle the speed. Slowing down the write speed seems to be part of the resolution for handling the weaker cards: an updated T3 benchmarks at only 58% for the write function, but at least the SanDisk cards can handle it now. The other functions are still absurdly fast, like DB import at 887% and File seek at 1180%

BTW: Some folks never use the SDIO capabilities, but some use it everyday. But it is a moot point and does not prove anything because SDIO is becomming standard across the board.

"Plus by now, all PPC applications are better than anything POS can muster in almost all category except obscure hobbyist apps."

Nope, not there yet. Matter of fact, it is the mainstream apps that are significantly poorer. Palm apps like AcidImage, DTG, MobileDB, SmartList, SnapperMail, and a host of others hardly fall into the "obscure hobbyist" category. Building a relational database with lookup tables, db joins, and field expressions right on the handheld is an example of real work in the real world.

Hold it right there, wench. You win arguments because I let you go, not because you have me beat. You're never going to drag the best out of me no matter how many times you reply yelling and taunting. Remember about a year ago in the depths of the BrightHand forums, we held a small contest to see who could fit the most "yada"s on the screen at one time, since you kept talking about how QVGA on a PPC could display more data than HVGA on Palm? I think I fit in 520 in WordSmith with very very light sub-pixel font rendering, and you tried real hard and fit in something like 538 and started going off about how you won the argument. I laughed and left the thread. The fact remains that I could have decreased the font size. I could have decreased it a lot more so that there could have been 1000 yadas written legibly there. But after a while of being pissed off at you and your BS comments, I cooled off and took it lightly. You know, let you have the benefit of the doubt so you look stupid when I tell you how easy I let you go (like now).

I'm glad I haven't really kicked your ass to oblivion more than a couple times. I don't go to these forums to prove how strong my NX is. I do it to optimize it, make it better, fill it with better applications, make it more useful, and the like. All you want to do is profess how great yours is and how bad mine is. Sounds to me like you're convincing yourself more than anybody else.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

Man, it really bothers you, doesn't it? It's like a game of poker. Am I bluffing? Am I telling the truth? What if I'm right? What if I've been right all along and have been messing with your mind this whole time? How do you know? You don't, because you'll never experience Palm OS beyond GIF screenshots on developer websites.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

Is this verified, Ryan?

>>otherwise rubbing my hands in glee over the length of this thread!<<

>>>http://www.pocketpcpassion.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38539

Thanks. Geez, everyone go look at that thread. Check out the 4th Textmaker screensnap. To have *that* on PalmOS with double-tap/drag capability ...

... and, hmmm, don't I see the words "Palm Guru" on that screen snap? Heh-heh...

Think about this - ska can't write if his life depended on it. That MSMobiles article is definitely his. I would hazard a guess that he would put his fullest effort into making it sound grammatically correct (even though many mistakes fell through the cracks). Pixelator at least sounds like he has a vocabulary and doesn't skip articles (a, an, the) before nouns in the classic style of ska. Do you think ska would really mess up his professional MSMobiles article on purpose and talk under Pix like normal (which has better vocab) just to be two separate people? I wouldn't think so.

Pix can be rational. Ska can't. Let's just put it that way.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

I have never been in Iraq in my life.

Neither has Saddam Hussein!

Looking back now two years later, that company's URL is no longer active, the phone lines are disconnected and none of the managers are willing to talk to me. When I finally tracked down a former employee, I feel redeemed that I was right all along.

I don't know what kind of consultants you are used to work with, buy my peers consider my move very professional and responsible. Hell, I don't even list these guys on my Past Clients List since it was such a bomb.

QED

LOL, OTF, ROTFL, ROFLMHO, ROTFLAS, ROTFLSHISMC, COTFLGUOAHAHA!

Second of all, apology accepted - but I don't see what one has to do with the other. You may be upset with SKA/whoever he is for spoofing accounts, but that isn't me. I think that, while you may disagree with my previous statement, it doesn't make it any more OK for you to call me a SKA clone/troll/spoofer. I don't consider his activity on PIC even remotely similar to mine.

gee foo, how sweet of you. lol.
that after swearing left and right without thinking first right after the announcement? You were actually accepting a conclusion made by somebody with dubious news reputation.

like I say, not sure if you read it before it got erased. If you don't believe me, you can try logging in with new account and start posting anything beyond cheerleading tune and see how fast your account get deleted.

Well you sure as hell like the site. You probably spend more time here than Ryan.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

Ska, it isn't so much WHAT you say as HOW MANY times you say it. That's what drives everyone nuts. You keep trying to spread Pocket PC gospel to a group that doesn't care. This is a Palm fan site, you aren't going to find many people interested in PPC here. Brighthand would a better place to post your arguments.

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My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

true, admitedly it's a bit harsh at times, but necessary. It has nothing to do with spreading the gospel, but subduing these plebs. They can go to PDA hell if they want to, I wouldn't care. But they must be subdued.

If Palm and Apple are outdated, then MS, which copies a lot of features from them, must be shipping even more ancient technology.

And until better display technology comes along, VGA on a small pocket-sized device really means mostly a waste of battery life. Typical PDA apps (except for photography) don't need that many DPI.

None of those need more DPI. They need a larger display. Most web pages and flash animations are designed for viewing at 95 DPI. Regular video is designed for about 2 minutes of angular resolution in luminance and less resolution in color, which around 120 DPI at a 12 inch viewing distance. Displaying more text in a calendar requires more square inches for a given readable point size and user with normal eyesight, not more DPI. Etc. Only high quality photographs are typically viewed at over 200 DPI by the average consumer. For everything else, cheaper, thinner units with better battery life would be more ideal... until better display technology comes along which doesn't require this tradeoff.

That would be true if the resolution didn't come with any tradeoffs. A higher resolution screen requires more battery power, more space, and even a faster processor to handle such video horsepower. Hell, if battery technology catches up to the point where an H4155 can have a VGA screen in the exact same shape with good battery life, I'll have no complaints about VGA! But until then, I think the tradeoffs are too much.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

Yes, they do. Paper has far higher resolution than current PDAs, and that shows. I can take notes comfortably on a note pad the size of a T3, but the notepad application in my T3 simply lacks the resolution to be useful (the fact that PalmOS lacks anti-aliasing and something like ClearType is another problem). I can also read tiny print in many different fonts on paper, but not on the T3.

Even if you upped the T3 pixel count to VGA, it still wouldn't be close to paper, but it would be better than the pahetic displays we get on PDAs right now.

The fact that the current crop of PDA apps are aiming low in terms of their use of graphics and typography because they run on terribly limited hardware doesn't mean that those limitations are good.

Then you will *love* viewing the web on the Treo 600's 160x160 screen.

Have fun!

Web pages do need more pixels, not from increased DPI, but from increasing the square inches of the display at about the same DPI. That's why most people prefer to view web pages on large desktop displays when weight isn't an issue.

Ask a professional web page designer how many DPI they design web pages for. It's not that high.

After making up such rediculous claims that you quit a consultant job because of having to use Pocket PC, and that the company later went out of business BECAUSE of that decicion, you don't deserve to be taken seriously. You never were a consultant, and you're a bad liar. Troll.

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My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

And don't go knocking wage slaves (which I am not) when *you* have to be a conSLUTant.

Bosco: That crack about the Audrey was hilarious. Touche, kid.

I thought you were joking when you said you were that old. I was -10 years old at that time! Maybe you think you're the Iraqi Information Minister for real! Senile!

Yep, this is retaliation from calling me 'kid'. You had me all warm-hearted at 'hilarious', and then you clotheslined me. You just haven't learned.. can't teach an old dog new tricks.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

"I have seen your web site and examined your background. I know who you are."

You do? Wow, I'm impressed that you know my background when I haven't mentioned all that much about myself. And what exactly does my web site have to do with my "background"?

"With that, you don't have much experience to speak on this matter."

While you, on the other hand, are just chock full of insight and intellect.

"As for me, you can walk you into any major retailer and find products on the shelves that I designed."

So you claim. And on my off days, I work as an undercover agent for the Israeli Mossad.

Hey! I just figured out who you are. You're Ron Popeil, inventor of the Pocket Fisherman, and other unwanted products. Maybe that explains why you hate Microsoft so much, they stole the "Pocket" name from you.

"I will say it again, PPC is a bad and unhealthy business move that has done in many at start-up company worst than the discontinuation of Springboard."

Oh put a sock in it. Do you realize what an idiot you look like by saying that? I'm not exactly a huge fan of PPC either, but you take zealotry to whole new level with these ridiculous claims. Your “I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by Pocket PC” rantings are getting a little old.

"As far as calling me a "conSLUTant", that is envy from a wage-slave to the tee. Do you have the ability and talents to strike it out on your own and make a living? Are you one of the thousands that are too scared to learn a new technology, be unique to your advantage or are those friends in the office your only form of a social life?"

I'm assuming that comment was directed at me, but your short attention span prevented you from noticing this was posted by Mike...not me. That aside, I will say that this proves that you DON'T know my "background" as you claim because I happen to be self employed. I am a freelance web designer and tech specialist. So please spare me your elitist delusions of grandeur.

Too scared to learn a new technology? What new technology? I happen to use nearly EVERY platform under the sun. I use Linux...OSX...Win2k...XP...BeOS (occasionally)...PalmOS..PPC. Hell, I even played around with Solaris once, for a laugh. Wrong again.

I am a little concerned about those last comments about "Being unique to your advantage", and no social life outside the office. Are you implying that using a particular platform makes you unique as an individual? If so, I pity you. Actually that would explain why you seem to desperately place so much value on platform devotion. You foolishly believe that it makes you a better person. Loser.

"Your continual invalidation and insulting of me and others on this site

Others on this site? Nope, just you. Digging for allies, eh Rhino?

"...just shows me a lack of professionalism and immaturepassive-aggressive tactics that I'm sure permeates through your reputation in your office."

LOL. Yeah, I'm widely known throughout the office as a viperous individual. I've even been caught running with scissors on occasion.

"I don't consider your view worth much since I see no product from you. If you cannot understand who I am or what I have achieved, I pity you. Possibly, deep down inside, you fear me or you are hiding something. I have bypassed your types many, many times having the VP put you on the list of the next round of layoffs."

I'll miss you most of all, Scarecrow. After reading your words, Rhino, I don't know whether to laugh or pity you. Come on, I FEAR YOU? I don't even know who the bloody hell you are. And neither does anyone else around here. You have quite an ego, I must say. And a delusional view of your self worth.

Your honor, the state rests its case.

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My blog: www.pocketfactory.com

No. It will also be used to make map and graphical displays more readable and to enable people to actually use the PDA more like they would a piece of paper.

The only reason current Palm applications get by with the low DPI that Palm devices have is because they have been painstakingly crafted to live within those limitations: they use special fonts that make the pixellation less of an obstacle, they move things around etc. But you can't even doodle properly on a current Palm because the resolution is so low.

We desparately need higher resolution displays: more DPI, not larger screens.

>>We desparately need higher resolution displays: more DPI, not larger screens.

You can't doodle properly? Maybe on a 160x160 Palm. Go to Best Buy, grab an NX, open up Clie Memo, and draw to your heart's delight.

And we actually need both: higher resolutions and larger screens. But this won't happen until battery technology catches up. In two years, we're going to look at our five hour battery life and wonder why we put up with it. Fuel cells just can't get here fast enough.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616