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Comments on: Harbinger Capital Buys a 9.48% Stake in Palm

harbinger capital palm stock deal Palm Inc. announced today via a Schedule 13G SEC filing that Harbinger Capital Partners has purchased 16 million shares of common stock, representing a 9.48% passive stake in the company. Harbinger is a NYC based private hedge fund run by billionaire investor Philip A. Falcone. The hedge fund also owns large stakes in the New York Times Company, Cleveland-Cliffs and various satellite communications companies.

The investment was noteworthy not only for its size but also because this was made via the open market on already available shares. As such the common stock does not give Harbinger any special voting shares, (unlike Elevations deal) but it does represent nearly 10% of Palm's 168,755,045 shares outstanding as of March 26, 2010. Palm stock was up today on the news, but closed up a modest .16 (~3%) at 5.36.

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Is There a Phone Booth Close By?

2klbs @ 4/14/2010 5:01:53 PM # Q
Has anyone ever seen Phil Falcone and Roger McNamee in the same room together at the same time?

Not "Pre-verted"- Android Assimilation?

Reply to this comment

Insider deal

mikecane @ 4/14/2010 5:15:49 PM # Q
Something is up. Someone knows something. Due diligence must be progressing with at least *one* suitor.

By Monday will we see a press release about Intent to Purchase?

RE: Insider deal
LiveFaith @ 4/14/2010 8:06:36 PM # Q
+1

Maybe their loading up PUBLICLY while covering on the short side so that when Vampire and the rest see their "footprint" and invest, they will make a mint when the bubble pops. It's a crap shoot already manipulated by the house. Outsiders should avoid IMO.
Pat Horne

RE: Insider deal
SeldomVisitor @ 4/15/2010 4:50:46 AM # Q
If any public company has management insane enough to buy Palm at or above the current price, short their stock into the ground.

A hedge fund with an all-time performance history of -42% and a compared-to-S&P performance of -26% is NOT one I use to value the likelihood of anything interesting other than haircuts.

Reply to this comment

very strange

VampireLestat @ 4/14/2010 5:17:20 PM # Q
There is no logic to that decision.
Smells of insider wrongdoings.
RE: very strange
VampireLestat @ 4/14/2010 5:20:21 PM # Q
I should buy a 1000$ in stock, then sell it at problably ~1250$ once Palm announces they are selling out. Easy money.
Reply to this comment

Event

e_tellurian @ 4/14/2010 9:49:01 PM # Q
Ya!

"Event investments in companies where the Harbinger team identifies a significant opportunity to actively engage with a company to unlock value".

Palm is the right enterprise for such thinking. Could a Palm Jewel and Palm Classic unlock some of that value?

It is nice to see Elevation has more support. Palm is a well known brand with a past, present and future. There is an i in innovation not in team. Though put the two together and what an event.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Event
e_tellurian @ 4/17/2010 7:05:07 PM # Q
What about a signature series for Palm Classic and Palm Jewel? One could ask the founders of Palm to sign the back (engraved) with their signature.

Any thoughts?

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Event
e_tellurian @ 4/18/2010 11:57:25 AM # Q
Some have said some business models bring out poor quality then great quality. The issue is Palm is an established North American brand and it is expected that high quality is offered all the time. If not people get disappointed, and come here to tell us all about how Palm did not meet or exceed expectation.

Palm has to be managed by people that understand that other are competing with Palm and can afford to bring out low quality products because they have no established brand. The brand is established over many years and customers that support a brand do so because they expect the best quality.

Can a premium Signature Series Palm Classic, made of titanium, and Palm Jewel, made of precious metal, offer the expected quality Palm built its brand on?

Just some thoughts to kick around.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Event
e_tellurian @ 4/19/2010 8:28:10 AM # Q
Is the stock price going the wrong way to build a signature Palm Classic and signature Palm Jewel? What does the stock price have to be to build such quality to extract true Palm value?

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

Reply to this comment

Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.

Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/15/2010 3:25:26 AM # Q
There's been a lot of chatter on who will ultimately buy Palm. Let's hear what the local "pundits" feel who will be buying Palm this quarter and why.

My list (Part 1):

1) Nokia.

Reasons for:
Symbian became a disaster; no North American smartphone presence; need proprietary OS as differentiator; have the money to overpay for Palm; webOS is only a year of development away from being stable; webOS can easily scale up to a Nokia tablet device like the 770; maemo/MeeGo is becoming a disaster.

Reasons against:
Already saw how unfinished webOS was in 2009; paying over $2 billion for a beta OS is a huge gamble; already have 3 other OS options in house; Android is "free"; resistance to using code "not developed here".

2) HTC.

Reasons for:
Want to evolve into being a major hardware seller instead of depending on contracts of the big cell phone/carrier players; want proprietary OS as differentiator; webOS is only a year of development away from being stable; webOS can easily scale up to an iPad-like tablet device which HTC could green light within months; have experience with optimizing UI; could use Palm patents to countersue Apple/negotiate cease fire; capable of making premium hardware needed to overcome the embarassment of Palm's current plasticky Pre.

Reasons against:
Already know how unfinished webOS is in 2010; paying over $2 billion for a beta OS could bankrupt company; Android is "free"; current customers (carriers + cell phone makers) could feel threatened by HTC selling its own hardware/OS and cancel future hardware orders.

3) Dell

Reasons for:
Want to move into smartphones, as computer sales have stagnated and commodity sales have become a dead end; want proprietary OS as differentiator; webOS is only a year of development away from being stable; webOS can easily scale up to an iPad-like tablet device which Dell could green light within minutes; could use Palm patents to prey on competitors; capable of marketing goods effectively to quickly increase market share and mind share; have the money to overpay for Palm.

Reasons against:
Already know how unfinished webOS is in 2010; Android is "free"; have already been burned when trying to expand beyond their core competencies (e.g. Axim Pocket PC devices).

4) Motorola.

Reasons for:
Previous homegrown Linux initiative became a disaster; want proprietary OS as differentiator; webOS is only a year of development away from being stable.

Reasons against:
Already saw how unfinished webOS was in 2009; paying over $2 billion for a beta OS is a huge gamble; Android is "free"; Already spent hundreds of millions of dollars (effectively) marketing Android-based Droid; company is barely recovering stability.

5) Samsung.

Reasons for:
Homegrown OS lacks power; need proprietary OS as differentiator; have the money to overpay for Palm; webOS is only a year of development away from being stable; webOS can easily scale up to a tablet device; capable of making best-in-class hardware needed to showcase webOS and gain market share.

Reasons against:
Already saw how unfinished webOS was in 2009; Android is "free"; resistance to using code "not developed here".

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 4/15/2010 4:55:08 AM # Q
No one.

There is no significant value to Palm, INCLUDING webOS.

Free alternatives are available and MUCH more widely accepted.

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
jca666us @ 4/15/2010 4:59:57 AM # Q
Maybe Google would buy them - Android could certainly use a new UI.

If Palm's patents have actual value, I could see Apple or Microsoft buying them.

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/15/2010 5:09:20 AM # Q
"No one.

There is no significant value to Palm, INCLUDING webOS.

Free alternatives are available and MUCH more widely accepted."

Wrong. Palm will be sold. Optimal tming would be after its current (disastrous) quarter is announced and stock price heads back south of $2/share.

WebOS is a means of achieving differentiation in a crowded marketplace. If a company comes to market with yet another Android phone, it has little chance of getting attention unless it outfeatures the competition. This is a Zero-Sum game. Android has quickly turned smartphones into commodities. iPhone OS and webOS give manufacturers a way to justify premium pricing, while expanding the potential market.

FJH
- Proud Foleo owner since 2007

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/15/2010 5:16:57 AM # Q
Lenovo, Google, Huawei Technologies, Microsoft, and ZTE Corp are 5 more names that have been suggested.

Pros?
Cons?

FJH

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
mikecane @ 4/15/2010 7:24:39 AM # Q
There is only ONE company that should buy Palm, period. Asus. Asus is the only corporation out there that wants to do things differently, that wants to be a pioneer and not a me-too follower like all of the others you've cited.

Samsung? Right. They had to bend to Asus when it came to netbooks. Same for the rest.

Asus dreams. The others don't.

Palm + Asus = perfect fit.

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 4/15/2010 7:35:37 AM # Q
Asus is heavily Android.

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
e_tellurian @ 4/15/2010 7:51:57 AM # Q
Why not keep Palm in North America by thinking of ways to keep Palm an innovative North American brand? The North American content is priceless. If the price of Palm is too high usually that an indication that the buyer can not afford Palm. It may be less expensive to create products that compete with Palm like others have. A brand with a good past, present and future takes many years to build the brand has value too.

Everyone knows Palm and Palm"s ability to weather storms and develop leading edge solutions.

E-T


e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
mikecane @ 4/15/2010 8:14:06 AM # Q
>>>Asus is heavily Android.

WTF are you talking about? Other than people doing phones, NO ONE is "heavily Android." They can't afford to be. (Archos is on a doomed path of its own.)

Whatever you might have seen linking Asus to Android was blithe PR. The only thing that matters is what *ships*. webOS can ship where Android cannot.

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
e_tellurian @ 4/15/2010 8:26:12 AM # Q
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
SeldomVisitor @ 4/15/2010 8:59:19 AM # Q
mikecane wrote:
>>>Asus is heavily Android.

WTF are you talking about?

http://images.google.com/images?q=asus%20android


RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
surfmaniac @ 4/15/2010 11:30:56 AM # Q
'Fake Jeff Hawkins?' It's nice to see you've been reading 'lists' on other websites and essentially plagiarizing them here. Good work.
RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
hkklife @ 4/15/2010 11:36:27 AM # Q
Mike,

Asus WOULD be a good fit in THEORY but it ain't gonna happen. They are in the midst of their own Palm/PalmSource-style "Pegatron" spin-off. I actually could see Acer being a more likely candidate to buy Palm than Asus. They bought (and then brought back from the dead) Gateway and Packard Bell over the past few years, having absorbed TI's laptop biz a few years prior.

FJH;
Of the remaining suitors, I don't see any of the "big" names (Moto, Dell, Google, Nokia et al) buying Palm. To do so would deviate too much from their established plans. I think HTC would LIKE to buy Palm if a sweetheart price offering was available but they don't want to risk bankrupting themselves by biting off more than they can chew. And you bring up some very good points about some of HTC's partners getting spooked if they own their own OS (though Sense is rapidly evolving into a mini OS in its own right!)

Garmin would've been a decent contender if they could've picked up Palm for cheap back in '08 or so and avoid the disasterous Nuvifone. But now they are tied up with Asus. Besdies, the GPS nav biz has become a razor-thin margin (at best) commodity business, Garmin may end up in five years' time being in similar shape to where Palm is now.

I think the contenders right now are Lenovo, Huawei, ZTE or maybe even some darkhorse Asian contender like Foxconn or someone that so desperately wants an immediate North American presence that they will cheerfully overpay . And I would not rule out a purchase by someone like Cisco who, like the bizarre Flip acquisition last year, wants to muscle into the consumer market.

Who are YOU betting on to acquire Palm? Is it the same ****** you predicted two years or so ago?
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
mikecane @ 4/15/2010 4:06:30 PM # Q
@SV: Oh FFS. Pictures and PR means nothing. NONE of that has SHIPPED. Hello, meet reality. The damned Asus KEYBOARD computer that's been touted for a frikkin YEAR still hasn't SHIPPED.
RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
rpa @ 4/15/2010 4:30:38 PM # Q
hkklife: I see Lenovo as being viable as they did a good job with the ThinkPad acquisition. Lenovo could develop WebOS for netbooks and tablets as well as jumping into the mobile phone game. The China market is cluttered with knockoffs everywhere so a real phone with a great OS from a respected local brand could be a winner. To put the market size in perspective, China Mobile has more subscribers than the entire US population.
RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
e_tellurian @ 4/15/2010 4:43:34 PM # Q
What if they do not sell and stay a North American brand? What is so wrong with that choice? If you lose its a win win you keep your job and Palm weathers another storm.

Palm will sell for a premium and i know of know one that will help sell Palm below its true value.

The choices are simple if Palm is too expensive then the development of an offering to compete with Palm, like others have, will have to be the route taken. Others have done well competing with Palm. Palm keeps raising the bar that's good for the industry and more reason why Palm is a premium North American brand worthy of premium value.

Palm will continue to develop new offerings to keep Palm a premium North American brand. North America is not a discount store for innovation. If you want it then you have to pay for it not expect others to help lower the price just to save face or help a totalitarian capitalist dictatorship get assets for nothing.

All the chatter to try and devalue Palm does not seem to be working. More people are investing in Palm more people want Palm. More people want Palm to enhance its value and perhaps to try and keep it an innovative independent North American brand.

Competition is good for Palm and the customer.

Just some thoughts to kick around.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
Jayy @ 4/15/2010 6:08:58 PM # M Q
"totalitarian capitalist dictatorship..." Think that's probably all you know about China and its people right? Keep reading and watching your trash and remain ignorant....
Palm WAS innovative (a decade ago) but have nothing now accept a few palmpilot fanboys with old habits to break
RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
e_tellurian @ 4/15/2010 8:00:26 PM # Q
Jayy, what more should i know about China's politics? China's politics are in their business it is everywhere. This is North America a democracy and we want people free to be independent thinkers not dictated to.

My understanding is China buys North American content and try to control. That is why China want to buy cheap and encourage everyone else to buy cheap. The issue with this type of thinking is it leaves out the quality component of a market place. Some people can afford more than one device and some people want to pay for quality. North America was built on quality not inexpensive. We have been inundated with inexpensive to the point that we do not even consider quality anymore. A Palm Jewel and Palm Classic can continue quality.

North American R&D and marketing is not inexpensive and that seem to be factored out of their value equation. Sure if you do not have to pay for R&D or the marketing costs of branding one can understand why China expects to buy North American innovation at reduced value and some people help China accomplish that.

A lot of content goes into North American innovation. Just as i could know more about China, China should know enough about North America, by now, that they understand our value.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
e_tellurian @ 4/15/2010 8:43:54 PM # Q
One can look at Palms situation from many vantage points.

Two that stand out:

So much North American content has left Palm that it is now de-valued

or

The North American content left will hold up the value as the value of North American content is worth that much.

i see the latter. North American content is worth that much.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
nastebu @ 4/15/2010 10:09:45 PM # Q
Fake Jeff Hawkins wrote:
Wrong. Palm will be sold. Optimal tming would be after its current (disastrous) quarter is announced and stock price heads back south of $2/share.

WebOS is a means of achieving differentiation in a crowded marketplace. If a company comes to market with yet another Android phone, it has little chance of getting attention unless it outfeatures the competition. This is a Zero-Sum game. Android has quickly turned smartphones into commodities. iPhone OS and webOS give manufacturers a way to justify premium pricing, while expanding the potential market.

I would think that although WebOS could provide differentiation, it comes at a very high cost and a correspondingly very high risk. The risk of jumping on the Android bandwagon is it's quite possible you will end up becoming just another vendor in a low-margin market. The risk of jumping into WebOS is the risk of having to pour money down a hole indefinitely hoping the investment will pay off.

I would think that the cost of acquiring Palm is only the downpayment. After that, you have to update the OS and keep it innovative, or your differentiation is only in being not as good. That sounds hugely risky and expensive to me.

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
nastebu @ 4/15/2010 10:11:59 PM # Q
Sorry, for pool purposes I'm agreeing with SV--no buyer. But perhaps he's brainwashed me.
RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
Jayy @ 4/15/2010 10:57:55 PM # Q
e_tellurian, I dispute that America is a TRUE democracy. It's a word that's been thrown around too much and has become a cliche. You'll realise that it's all smoke and mirrors if you really are an individual with independent thinking. China being a developing country has comparative advantage in cost of production (no it's not due to the abuse of the lowly paid.) It's not that they don't understand value. The fact the US buys from China (a lot of the imports are actually produced by American FDIs) establishes the fact that they do produce goods of high value. Why else would people continue buying them? When it come to value, it is not the absolute/total value of a product but rather its price/quality ratio... In fact, if you look at the development of Japan and S. Korea, they both went on the same path. Cheap crappy products to start with then moving on to more quality conscious/less-price sensitive exports once export markets are well established. It's the best/only marketing strategy for all new entrants whether you are talking about a product, a firm or a country.
RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/16/2010 3:15:18 AM # Q
"I would think that although WebOS could provide differentiation, it comes at a very high cost and a correspondingly very high risk. The risk of jumping on the Android bandwagon is it's quite possible you will end up becoming just another vendor in a low-margin market. The risk of jumping into WebOS is the risk of having to pour money down a hole indefinitely hoping the investment will pay off.

I would think that the cost of acquiring Palm is only the downpayment. After that, you have to update the OS and keep it innovative, or your differentiation is only in being not as good. That sounds hugely risky and expensive to me."


I disagree:

webOS is here. It multitasks. It's scalable. It's functional. It's stable. It's flexible. It's adaptable. It's easy to code for. It's major problems are lack of speed optimization (which will be brute forced into being a moot point as CPU speeds increase - it's reasonably snappy on 800 - 1000 MHz processors) and missing features that Palm ran out of time including in the mad rush to get it to market. Throw 6 more months and another $50 million in development and it's probably the best mobile OS out there along with iPhone OS. That's significant. Mobile phones are becoming people's primary computer these days and whoever can become the dominant OS on cell phones can become the new Microsoft.

Someone wise once said:

"When we started this company in 1992 it was based on a very simple vision: that the future of personal computing would be mobile, that over time more and more of your personal computing needs would be satisfied by a device that fits in your pocket or purse.... We want to make the computer smaller and smaller, and we can do that. We can put more memory in it, we can put more data in it, we can put movies and pictures and so on. So we thought about the future, and we said, well, in the future people are going to have these very powerful portable computers in their pocket.

....We believe [webOS] is really a beginning of a whole new wave of finally and truly making the mobile device that's in your pocket your primary PC."


FJH
The man behind the Foleo. The Legend.

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
e_tellurian @ 4/16/2010 9:08:35 AM # Q
Jayy

"e_tellurian, I dispute that America is a TRUE democracy. It's a word that's been thrown around too much and has become a cliche. You'll realise that it's all smoke and mirrors if you really are an individual with independent thinking."

Those that work for companies that answer to a totalitarian capitalist dictatorship would agree with you. Independent thinkers do as they agree not as they are told.

"China being a developing country has comparative advantage in cost of production (no it's not due to the abuse of the lowly paid.) It's not that they don't understand value."

China is no longer a developing nation they are developed. To call China developing that is smoke and mirrors. How does a developing nation become the third biggest economy in the world? Trillions of foreign aid has gone to China for their developing infrastructure yet that capital is used to enhance their military and to buy advanced technology. China is able to compete with the world they are no longer developing they are developed. They do not understand democracy and perhaps as a consequence do not understand North American value.

"The fact the US buys from China (a lot of the imports are actually produced by American FDIs) establishes the fact that they do produce goods of high value. Why else would people continue buying them?"

They buy them because they are convinced that people want inexpensive products that lack North American content which is why China wants to buy North American content. They buy our high value goods cheap and we buy their good cheap. It a trade relationship that is not sustainable for North America. Democracy is not cheap it is a very advanced and free flowing environment completely different from a totalitarian capitalist dictatorship.


"When it come to value, it is not the absolute/total value of a product but rather its price/quality ratio... In fact, if you look at the development of Japan and S. Korea, they both went on the same path. Cheap crappy products to start with then moving on to more quality conscious/less-price sensitive exports once export markets are well established. It's the best/only marketing strategy for all new entrants whether you are talking about a product, a firm or a country."

The less we pay the less we have to make philosophy does not work. The less we make the less taxes we pay. Housing does not get less expensive it has gotten more expensive and has driven out North American content as a consequence of the less we pay the less we need to make philosophy.

North America works as a democracy not a totalitarian capitalist dictatorship. We have devalued our region to compete with China. China makes a profit every six months a democracy is too advanced to compete unless we devalue and become a totalitarian capitalist dictatorship.

Just some thoughts to kick around.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
Jayy @ 4/16/2010 8:10:29 PM # M Q
"Independent thinkers do as they agree not as they are told"

You rebel you. It matters not whether you agree with me... it is what is... agreeing has nothing to do with it.

And surely you understand that you shouldn't look at the total GDP as a measurement of development but GDP per capita!? There's a billion people there.

"A democracy is to advanced to compete"

ermmm... yeah whatever mate.

RE: Palm DEADPOOL - taking bets who will buy Palm.
e_tellurian @ 4/16/2010 9:54:48 PM # Q
"Independent thinkers do as they agree not as they are told"-E-T

"You rebel you. It matters not whether you agree with me... it is what is... agreeing has nothing to do with it."- Jayy

With out consensus one is dead in the water that is democracy it is about the will of the people. The politicians listens to the people. The people pay politicians salaries to listen. In a totalitarian capitalist dictatorship the people have little freedom of speech. Like you said "agreeing has nothing to do with it" that's the mentality of a totalitarian capitalist dictatorship. Agreeing takes time and and that time is expensive but necessary to assure we do what is best for the people.-E-T

"And surely you understand that you shouldn't look at the total GDP as a measurement of development but GDP per capita!? There's a billion people there."- Jayyy

Look what happened to Google. Their North American business model can not work in China. Yet China's business model is allowed to function unhindered in North America that is democracy that my friend is serious value. - E-T

"A democracy is to advanced to compete"- E-T

ermmm... yeah whatever mate.- Jayy

Well we can agree to disagree. - E-T

That was a nice discussion thanks for your thoughts.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

Reply to this comment

Will Elevation Partners choose the NUCLEAR option?

Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/15/2010 7:55:01 PM # Q
To save the best scenario for last:

Will Elevation Partners choose the NUCLEAR option? EP now owns about 1/3 of Palm and essentially controls the Board. Are they BOLD enough to force a semi-hostile takeover of the remaining shares at a discounted rate? For EP to go "all in" they would have to bend the stockkholders over and threaten a "take it or leave it" offer that if refused may leave shareholders with nothing if/when Palm reaches pennystock levels. Then, to complete the end game EP-run Palm would release a couple of perfectly-specced, well-built smartphones to all carriers and sit back and watch their sales skyrocket.

After Bono, Rubes and the boys cash in a few hundred million profit it's time for curtain calls: Bobby Fischer emerges from behind the curtains arm in arm with Jeff, Donna, Ed, Carl, Eric, David and the two craven "bottoms" that Ed is touching here: http://blog.palm.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/01/img_00181.jpg all wearing gold threaded Yankowski suits. They all take a bow and exit stage left, giggling like giddy schoolgirls, throwing (used?) condoms and packets of lube to the stockholders. The stockholders have been played and played well. The first time hurts the most...

RE: Will Elevation Partners choose the NUCLEAR option?
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/15/2010 8:05:50 PM # Q
Of course, Harbinger Capital's recent massive buy of almost 10% of Palm might result in some hefty lawsuits being filed and an SEC investigation if EP tries to pull off the above scenario. But given the degree of depraved stock manipulation that we've see with the Palm Companies over the past decade, I wouldn't bet against the NUCLEAR option coming into play.

Popcorn, Crackerjacks, peanutssssss here! Who wants some fresh roasted peanutsssssssss!

RE: Will Elevation Partners choose the NUCLEAR option?
e_tellurian @ 4/15/2010 8:25:26 PM # Q
Will Palm focus on innovation? Will they consider building the Palm Jewel and Palm Classic? Will those disappointed with Palm be satisfied with traditional North America innovation? Are some people angry at Palm and the emotion is causing such people to cheer at Palms de-valuation or even helping the de-valuation?

Palm has weathered many storms. A Palm Jewel and Palm Classic would bring the best of Palm's past, present and future together to continue the tradition of North American innovation excellence. "Together we stand divided we fall" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_we_stand,_divided_we_fall

Can those hurt by Palm forgive Palm?

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Will Elevation Partners choose the NUCLEAR option?
SeldomVisitor @ 4/16/2010 3:02:40 AM # Q
The Harbinger purchase is no more interesting that the T Rowe Price sale. But Palm Pumpers have to grasp onto SOMETHING so it's gotten a LOT more press.

RE: Will Elevation Partners choose the NUCLEAR option?
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/16/2010 3:30:15 AM # Q
For Harbinger of Capital to purchase a 10% of Palm on the open market and not have a seat on the Board seems rather foolhardy, but their massive gamble might end up paying off very quickly. This is high-risk poker and either way the results are going to be spectacular. They could easily see a 30% to 50% return within three months, then again they may lose almost everything if Palm ends up going under and Elevation Partners panics and goes into "every man for himself" mode + stampedes other stockholders in a mad rush for the life rafts. Still, Palm has too much intrinsic value to disappear without providing some return on investment. If I had 100 K sitting around lonely for a poker game I would've sunk it into Palm when they were bottoming out a couple of months ago. The SEC needs to keep an eye on this one. have a feeling the Average Joe stockholders are going to get sodomized one way or another (as is usually the case with the Palm companies).

FJH
- That's Mr. Foleo to you, Buddy.

RE: Will Elevation Partners choose the NUCLEAR option?
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/16/2010 3:33:11 AM # Q
For Harbinger Capital to purchase a 10% of Palm on the open market and not have a seat on the Board seems rather foolhardy, but their massive gamble might end up paying off very quickly. This is high-risk poker and either way the results are going to be spectacular. They could easily see a 30% to 50% return within three months, then again they may lose almost everything if Palm ends up going under and Elevation Partners panics and goes into "every man for himself" mode + stampedes other stockholders in a mad rush for the life rafts. Still, Palm has too much intrinsic value to disappear without providing some return on investment. If I had 100 K sitting around lonely for a poker game I would've sunk it into Palm when they were bottoming out a couple of months ago. The SEC needs to keep an eye on this one. have a feeling the Average Joe stockholders are going to get sodomized one way or another (as is usually the case with the Palm companies).

FJH
- That's Mr. Foleo to you, Buddy.

RE: Will Elevation Partners choose the NUCLEAR option?
SeldomVisitor @ 4/16/2010 5:14:22 AM # Q
Fidelity has about 15%, T Rowe Price had about 15% until they recently sold off (no news story there), others have high percent. No board seats. Harbinger is uninteresting except to pumpers.

Reply to this comment

webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.

Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/16/2010 3:58:59 AM # Q
Palm needs to make the announcement that finally shows everyone the true potential of webOS: the webOS mini-netbook/tablet. The Foleo failed because Palm ran out of time bringing Hawkins' vision to reality. webOS has all of the components ready now to offer data synchronization across smartphone/laptop/desktop environments.

Synchronization is the new "killer app".

The new webOS netbook is instant on, virus-proof, fast, and does 95% of what most users need on a daily basis. The betas are done. Rubes needs to let this Big Dog run free.

FJH

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
e_tellurian @ 4/16/2010 12:32:52 PM # Q
The Palm PDA market can evolve in the financial industry. There seem to be much to do and we need to get doing.

There is a place for Palm in the future, PDAs, or netbook need more to do too. Example an accountant has a PDA (perhaps a Palm Jewel or Palm Classic) or netbook that interact with a we-com virtual wallet. The we-com virtual wallet can securely send financial data to the accountant's PDA or netbook. Its a secure efficient transaction. This can take place over lunch. This allows the accountant to have full accountability for the data.

Just an example of where the Jetsons did not go in 2062 though we can well before 2062. 97 years, that's a full life of advanced we-com interaction.

Just some thoughts to kick around.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/16/2010 2:31:19 PM # M Q
You guys must be drinking Ruby's kool-aid!

The earliest Palm could release a mythical Pre Tablet would be mid-2011 - assuming palm isn't out of business or bought out by then.

Why wait - just buy an iPad.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
e_tellurian @ 4/16/2010 4:23:01 PM # Q
Did Palm raise the bar with folio? Has it has been done already? Palm was there and for some reason denied.

What does the financial industry and privacy industry and accountability industry ... and so on want/need to keep up with our changing digital planet?

What is the similarity between the Jetsons and where our technology is today? It seems like we are missing technology to keep up with the commerce environment just as the Jetsons were.

Is there a we-com industry waiting to build?

Just some thoughts to kick around.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
mikecane @ 4/16/2010 5:52:54 PM # Q
>>>The earliest Palm could release a mythical Pre Tablet would be mid-2011

Hmph. Today word leaks of Dell Streak in 7" and 9" screen sizes.

A webOS tablet would be in an immediate disadvantage against Android tablets. Those are already built to output HD video. webOS? Bueller? Bueller? AFAIK, there's no TCPMP or Core Player for webOS still.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
hkklife @ 4/16/2010 5:55:23 PM # Q
A webOS netbook will meet the same fate as the Fooleo: it'll be overpriced, underpowered, and Palm's glacial release schedule cannot hope to compete with the endless waves of Wintel netbooks being churned out by Asus, Acer, Lenovo, Samsung, Dell, HP et al.

Now, a WebOS tablet makes much, much more sense. If Palm jettisons the telephony stack, that'd remove one of the buggier, less impressive components of WebOS and presumably speed things up. On the other hand, pushing a feeble 320x480 display with decent performance takes an 800+Mhz CPU on the existing Pre/ Plus, so a 720p LCD on a WebOS (tasked with running Flash etc) would presumably suffer horribly in both performance and battery life.

For WebOS 2.0, Palm needs to come up with some kind of dynamic/virtual input scheme for keyboard-less devices and continue to make major improvements in battery life and peformance. FJH is right, the major heavy lifting has been done but there are SO many little flaws to iron out in the OS---the voicemail problem, shoring up the PIMs, various security issues--that I wonder if Palm has the $ OR the intent to bother persuing it. Or will they be content to get it to a "almost good enough" state like they did with Garnet 5.4.9 and milk it lifeless? And, if they start to license WebOS, won't they start to suffer the same horrible platform fragmentation that plagued Palm OS from '01-'04, WinMob its entire pre-7 life and what is starting to become a major concern for Android users & developers?
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
nastebu @ 4/16/2010 11:36:10 PM # Q
Doesn't Palm have enough problems competing in the smartphone market without going out and trying to one-up the iPad? If everything went exactly right, they might have WebOS in a state where it is as good as the OS on the iPad, when? In six months? one year? two years? But then they're going to market against not only an established market with millions of iPads, but against the swarm of competitors coming to market in all kinds of configurations.

It just sounds like a bad idea to pick the hardest fight and run straight at it. If WebOS is good, they need to put it on a smartphone that people actually want to buy, not start dreaming of pie-in-the-sky products that amount to buying a lottery ticket.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/17/2010 9:12:22 AM # Q
The earliest Palm could release a mythical Pre Tablet would be mid-2011 - assuming palm isn't out of business or bought out by then.

You should know better than this, Mike. Palm could easily release a small tablet webOS device before Summer 2010 if they want to. The ideal device would probably be either a 4 or 5 inch screened pure tablet device similar to the iPod Touch or else a mini-netbook with a 10 inch screen that converts to a tablet. The Foleo's size and ergononomics were just about perfect for such a device, but it was if anything a bit too overbuilt (too high quality to make money from).

webOS needs to attract a customer base and needs to make a convincing argument. Hardware is the key to sell webOS in 2010. Palm needs webOS on these form factors immediately:

1) HTC EVO
2) Centro 2
3) iPod Touch
4) Tablet convertible Foleo 2

The crappy Pre and Pixi hardware are the main reason that webOS is failing to catch on. Why Palm would have used such substandard hardware to showcase what is effectively their last chance to survive is very... odd. Would Rubenstein have a reason to intentionally cripple Palm's attempted comeback? Hmmmmm....

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
mikecane @ 4/17/2010 9:56:41 AM # Q
>>>You should know better than this, Mike.

I was quoting someone else, bunky.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/17/2010 10:36:03 AM # Q
A webOS netbook will meet the same fate as the Fooleo: it'll be overpriced, underpowered, and Palm's glacial release schedule cannot hope to compete with the endless waves of Wintel netbooks being churned out by Asus, Acer, Lenovo, Samsung, Dell, HP et al.

Wrong. A webOS tablet/netbook competes on a different level. Hawkins was RIGHT about the Foleo - it was just ahead of its time and Palm cheaped out on the CPU because the project was 2 years behind schedule + the (nameless) idiot project manager thought they could get away with not doing a recall to upgrade the CPU. As Jeff said at the time, instant on, speed and battery life are the keys. You have to experience a Foleo to yourself to understand. EVERYONE I know that actually used a Foleo loved the device - they just wanted it to have better specs and a more polished/complete software package. On the other hand, EVERYONE I've seen bashing the Foleo never actually used one. Have you or any of the other Foleo bashers here used the device? Hmmmm?

[crickets chirping...]

Now, a WebOS tablet makes much, much more sense. If Palm jettisons the telephony stack, that'd remove one of the buggier, less impressive components of WebOS and presumably speed things up. On the other hand, pushing a feeble 320x480 display with decent performance takes an 800+Mhz CPU on the existing Pre/ Plus, so a 720p LCD on a WebOS (tasked with running Flash etc) would presumably suffer horribly in both performance and battery life.

webOS is having Cobalt-like speed issues, but the OS opens up above 800 MHz. Palm was foolish to ship it with a CPU they knew would choke on the early versions of webOS. They overestimated their ability to optimize webOS on the fly during the month or two after its release. webOS on an HTC EVO would be impressive. There is no need to alter webOS for use in a netbook/tablet device. It was designed to be scalable and adapts easily to bigger hardware. Palm's problem is that Android is also scalable, but fortunately for Palm a lack of cohesion in the planning of the compatibility of versions of Android is creating fragmentation issues that gives Palm a theoretical advantage over that platform. But Android has a myriad of real, shipping devices which will create momentum for that platform, while Palm just offers two poorly-made phones to showcase webOS.

For WebOS 2.0, Palm needs to come up with some kind of dynamic/virtual input scheme for keyboard-less devices and continue to make major improvements in battery life and peformance. FJH is right, the major heavy lifting has been done but there are SO many little flaws to iron out in the OS---the voicemail problem, shoring up the PIMs, various security issues--that I wonder if Palm has the $ OR the intent to bother persuing it. Or will they be content to get it to a "almost good enough" state like they did with Garnet 5.4.9 and milk it lifeless? And, if they start to license WebOS, won't they start to suffer the same horrible platform fragmentation that plagued Palm OS from '01-'04, WinMob its entire pre-7 life and what is starting to become a major concern for Android users & developers?

webOS 2??? Are you serious? The current version is more like webOS 0.95b. Palm had no business releasing the Pre without the following in place:

1) PIM that built on and far surpassed the elegance, speed and intuitive design of the original PalmOS. DateBk6 shows us what intelligent design can produce. And CESD recently released Pimlical - licensing this would have made a lot more sense than hoping Palm's incompetent software people could reinvent the wheel by committee in the time they had to get webOS to market.

http://www.pimlicosoftware.com/pimlicalscreenshots.html

2) Bulletproof email that built on and far surpassed the elegance, speed and intuitive design of Chatteremail. Palm was clueless about email in the late 90s so they purchased MultiMail from Lorraine Wheeler (Actual Software) in 2000 and proceded to do nothing with it. For the next decade they sat by and watched Blackberry sales skyrocket, even though Palm could have easily put together the pieces with the help of companies like SEVEN to offer a solid competing product. Then they bought the superb Chatteremail from Marc Blanc when he showed it was possible to do what Palm's own people thought was impossible, only to kill the app off a couple years later. (See a pattern here?)

3) Local sync. Traditional Palm customers expected the familiar option of simple syncing to a desktop and Palm failed to deliver. Relying on the "cloud" is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially when Palm was arrogant enough to not include SD card expansion (for backup) on the Pre.

4) Bulletproof security and remote management. I can buy Butler for $15 or TealLock for $30 and have a more secure 2008 Centro or Treo than the 2010 Pre or Pixi. Pathetic.

5) Multimedia. How could Palm ship webOS with worse multimedia abilities than a Centro/Treo running the free TCPMP or Kinoma? Pathetic.

6) Microsoft Office compatibility. Another feature missing in action when the Pre was released. The webOS debut was an obviously premature release, likely dictated by the need to get SOMETHING out on the market before iPhone went on a rampage.

FJH
- Foleo Fanatic, Brainy Guy


RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/17/2010 10:49:54 AM # Q
>>>You should know better than this, Mike.

I was quoting someone else, bunky.

Couldn't tell on my Centro, Michael. Thanks for clearing that up.

And those Streaks look like vaporware Photoshop "products" that a panicked Dell marketing department threw out to hopefully stop some people from buying an iPad. Too bad for them that iPad is already here and is real. All those other tablets popping up on fanboi gadget sites are nothing but useless chatter until they are actually being sold to end users.

You've become even more gullible now that tabes dorsalis has set in, Michael. God bless you, my son.


RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
mikecane @ 4/17/2010 11:06:48 AM # Q
On your Centro? What happened to the stockpile of TH55s, Sparky?

The entire point of the Foleo was EMAIL SYNCING. Who the hell cares about that today?!

While I doubt the Dell Streak 5" will ever come out, the 7" could. The 9"? Forget it. And hey, who wouldn't rather have one of those than the damned Atom-choked hp Slate with -- vomit! -- Win7?

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/17/2010 12:54:41 PM # Q
On your Centro? What happened to the stockpile of TH55s, Sparky?

What are you talking about? Have you lost your mind? Again?

The entire point of the Foleo was EMAIL SYNCING. Who the hell cares about that today?!

Michael. Michael. Michael. Did you REALLY believe that fairytale? The email syncing angle was a gimmick Palm came up with to attempt to differentiate the Foleo. Everyone knew it was ridiculous but they threw Hawkins out to the wolves and made him try to explain why someone would ever want to HAVE to sync to a Treo when they could even more easily download the email toa native Foleo email application. It was sad seeing Jeffy squirm and sweat as he lied through his teeth in interview after interview that summer. Even more amusing was how slow the sync process was on the Foleo. And the ultimate joke was that the sync process was... BUGGY AS HELL. The Treos routinely crashed during the sync.

The Foleo was really about a new lean, mean, stripped down non-Microsoft platform that would run on both smartphones, netbooks and eventually desktops. Same OS everywhere, data syncing everywhere. Windows would have become redundant if Palm had been able to realize Hawkins' vision. Several years after he conceived the Post-Windows Age, Google is taking baby step towards that goal. Google has the money to make Android what the Foleo was supposed to usher in. Ironically, despite their massive resources, Google took the lazy route of pushing Android and it is now costing them. They SHOULD have chosen very strict standards for the platform and released their own high quality reference designs (at near cost) for smartphone, netbook and desktop right from the beginning and then given away the software to all comers. Unlike Palm, Google already had many of the online pieces of the puzzle needed to obviate Microsoft Windows/Windows apps: Gmail, Google Docs, Google Calendar, Google Wave, Picasa, etc. Releasing high quality Google-branded hardware running Android that interfaced with all of Google's online apps could have given Google new revenue streams and damaged Microsoft, Apple, Palm, Dell, Sony, HP and multiple other companies quickly. But Google was loathe to move beyond their core competencies (software) and start selling hardware - even if doing so would havd helped their bottom line.

Instead, Google allowed Android to become fragmented. It als o became vulnerable as a search engine (Microsoft's Bing could easily replace Google if only Microsoft could strongarm Bing the way it did with Internet Explorer). And ever-resourceful Apple leveraged Ipod and iTunes to promote iPhone to i turn promote iPad. An Apple-branded search engine akin to Bing could bring Google's wild run to a screeching halt. Jobs could easily put Universal Search (iSearch? iSee?, iSeek?, iLook?, iFind?) into the next versions of iPhoneOS/iPadOS/MacOS and effectively shut out Google from a HUGE portion of the search market.

While I doubt the Dell Streak 5" will ever come out, the 7" could. The 9"? Forget it. And hey, who wouldn't rather have one of those than the damned Atom-choked hp Slate with -- vomit! -- Win7?

I doubt most of the tablets being announced will ever be sold. CrunchPad, Dell's tablets, Lenovo's tablets - all of them have been sent back to the drawing board by Apple. iPad is available NOW, has name recognition, has tens of thousands of available apps, has a brick and mortar retail presence, has a waiting market of millions of Apple fanbois, is reasonably priced, has momentum, and has effective software stores integrated into the product. Game, Set and Match, Mr. Jobs.

FJH
- Foleo Architect, Tap Counter, Wood Carver, Pseudoscientist, Underpowered Netbook Champion

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/17/2010 2:12:09 PM # Q
Palm could easily release a small tablet webOS device before Summer 2010 if they wanted to. The ideal device would probably be either a 4 or 5 inch screened pure tablet device similar to the iPod Touch or else a mini-netbook with a 10 inch screen that converts to a tablet. The Foleo's size and ergononomics were just about perfect for such a device, but it was if anything a bit too overbuilt (too high quality to make money from).

Too high quality??? Foleo was a piece of under-developed junk - that's why it was canned before release.

Palm cannot release a tablet webos device before Summer 2010 - they're running on fumes right now. Another poorly received device would kill them even more quickly.

webOS needs to attract a customer base and needs to make a convincing argument. Hardware is the key to sell webOS in 2010. Palm needs webOS on these form factors immediately:

1) HTC EVO
2) Centro 2
3) iPod Touch
4) Tablet convertible Foleo 2

The crappy Pre and Pixi hardware are the main reason that webOS is failing to catch on. Why Palm would have used such substandard hardware to showcase what is effectively their last chance to survive is very... odd.

The hardware specs of the Pre were solid (the same as last year's iphone release); it was Palm's shitty build quality that did them in.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
hkklife @ 4/17/2010 3:23:58 PM # Q
Jca;

I think that the Pre's specs were otherwise solid BUT WebOS is like the Windows Vista of mobile platforms--it's unoptimized & needs a lot more brute processor strength to trudge through processes that would otherwise fly on a comparable hardware on a less-demanding OS.

Also, the Pre has a much busier UI and is at least .4" smaller than its primary competition (Storm, iPhone, Droid, various HTC designs). A 700+Mhz CPU, 3.5" 320x480 screen, plus a 16GB version being available sometime in calendar year '09 (of course alongside better quality control & build quality) would've addressed nearly all of the Pre hardware beefs. But now those specs are starting to pale tremendously in light of all of the new goodies heading to market this spring & summer.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
mikecane @ 4/17/2010 3:25:14 PM # Q
>>>The hardware specs of the Pre were solid (the same as last year's iphone release); it was Palm's shitty build quality that did them in.

Uh, no. It was the "Why the eff does it take SECONDS to call up something in Calendar when that should be INSTANT?!" thing.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/17/2010 4:02:22 PM # Q
Too high quality??? Foleo was a piece of under-developed junk - that's why it was canned before release.

Palm cannot release a tablet webos device before Summer 2010 - they're running on fumes right now. Another poorly received device would kill them even more quickly.

You are clearly a noob who never came within a mile of a Foleo. The Foleo hardware felt like a Lexus. It just had the engine of a Yugo. Palm ran out of time with the software and pulled the plug.

If Palm doesn't replace the Pre with better hardware in the next 3 months they are toast as an independent company. Period. By Summer 2010 there will be over half a dozen smartphones and feature phones on EVERY network that can kick sand in the Pre's face all day long. And after 1 year to have sold less than 1.5 million Pre is pathetic. Developers that had been sitting on the fence over the Pre have almost all left now and will concentrate on iPhone/iPad where at least they know they have over 20 millions potential customers and a marketplace that is centralized, secure and trusted. Look at what has happened to PalmOS 5 apps. How many are still supported or actively developed now? Once bitten twice shy.

The hardware specs of the Pre were solid (the same as last year's iphone release); it was Palm's shitty build quality that did them in.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Really.
The Pre's hardware can't handle webOS. The lag on the Pres I've seen are worse than the LifeDrive or the Treo 700p. Completely unacceptable for a phone . And the cheap-ass, plasticky case, sharp edges around the keyboard lip, flimsy, wobbly slider mechanism and cheap keyboard buttons have NO place on a flagship device. Had Palm just specced an 800 or 1000 MHz processor, the average schmuck may never have realized how beta quality webOS was and still is.

FJH
- Foleo Lothario, Leader, Game Changer, Icon

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
hkklife @ 4/17/2010 5:00:56 PM # Q
In all fairness, WERE there any mobile CPUs with enough oomph to handle WebOS back in mid '08 (or whenever Palm was drawing up the BoM for the original Pre?) The first device to ship with a 1Ghz Snapdragon was the HTC HD2 and that just hit the market in the USA a month or so ago.

Really, even a mild 100Mhz bump helps matters quite a bit. Had Palm gone with, say, the Treo Pro's 1500mAh battery and overclocked the Pre's CPU by 100Mhz or 200Mhz or so by default, and shipped it with the Plus' 512mb RAM (as opposed to the 256 in the original) it would've been a considerably better performer from launch.

And why, oh why, can they not give hardware acceleration to the UI? Also, could there be any correlation between slow NAN flash memory and the sluggish performance? Is that another spec that Palm got cheap with? I mean, to open an email attachment is pretty frustrating unless you are on a heavily overclocked Pre.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/17/2010 7:38:45 PM # Q
Uh, no. It was the "Why the eff does it take SECONDS to call up something in Calendar when that should be INSTANT?!" thing.

Uh, yea. You're talking a software issue, not a hardware issue. iphone OS has had three years of optimizations and enhancements, while webos is just 10 mos. old.

You are clearly a noob who never came within a mile of a Foleo. The Foleo hardware felt like a Lexus. It just had the engine of a Yugo. Palm ran out of time with the software and pulled the plug.

Doesn't matter how it felt; it was a piece of junk. The issue was more than just software: underpowered hardware (for the price), piss poor video capabilities, and average form factor.

Developers that had been sitting on the fence over the Pre have almost all left now and will concentrate on iPhone/iPad where at least they know they have over 20 millions potential customers and a marketplace that is centralized, secure and trusted.

Check your numbers; it's 75 million.


Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Really.

The Pre's hardware can't handle webOS. The lag on the Pres I've seen are worse than the LifeDrive or the Treo 700p. Completely unacceptable for a phone.

That's an issue with having an immature os that hasn't been optimized. I don't see any lag on my iphone 3gs running a beta of iphone os 4 - same cpu as the pre, half as much memory as the pre plus. difference is iphone os vs. webos.

webos may be innovative, but it hasn't matured.

And the cheap-ass, plasticky case, sharp edges around the keyboard lip, flimsy, wobbly slider mechanism and cheap keyboard buttons have NO place on a flagship device.

Oh, you also forgot the tiny screen. BTW, that's the shitty build quality I mentioned :)

Had Palm just specced an 800 or 1000 MHz processor, the average schmuck may never have realized how beta quality webOS was and still is.

That's idiotic; if Palm had included a 1 ghz. cpu they'd need a much larger battery to power it - and that would blow their form factor. Much better for Palm to have worked on optimizing the OS to perform acceptably on the current lineup of hardware.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/17/2010 7:44:21 PM # Q
In all fairness, WERE there any mobile CPUs with enough oomph to handle WebOS back in mid '08 (or whenever Palm was drawing up the BoM for the original Pre?)

The CPU in the Pre should be more than adequate.

The bigger question is considering all of the work Palm put into webos UI to provide a stellar user experience, why the hell didn't they optimize webos to ensure that the pre and pixi performed well.

User Experience is more than just the UI...

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
gmayhak @ 4/17/2010 7:50:31 PM # Q
WebOS will never run like a Ferrari because the whole development, hardware and software, was built around cost cutting and tricking consumers. This game requires innovation and dedication to provide your customers with the best. Who does that anymore? Apple.

A few years ago I could give a shit about Apple, Palm was creating the future, starting with the little Palm Pilot. When you get the ball, run with it! They decided to sit on it.

The iPad is leading the way now, not because of their success with the iPhone but because Palm abandoned a solid development community and left a huge opening for a portable device (pda) and because Apple pulls out all the stops, if they can't find a processor good enough they build one! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A4

If you haven't played with an iPad yet, do it, that's what the future of personal computing is all about. (although the iPhone and iPod touch are cool miniature versions to carry in your pocket).

Gary
Tech Center Labs

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
e_tellurian @ 4/17/2010 10:31:38 PM # Q
gmayhak, developers left Palm and went elsewhere correct? What if Palm's door never closed.

Most developers seem to have their roots in Palm. They already know Palm they left to help build another North American brand. Palm is still around perhaps not expected but are still around.

Could developers develop for more than one North American enterprise or must they work with only one?

Thanks for your candid thoughts.

E-T


e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/17/2010 10:37:48 PM # Q
In all fairness, WERE there any mobile CPUs with enough oomph to handle WebOS back in mid '08 (or whenever Palm was drawing up the BoM for the original Pre?) The first device to ship with a 1Ghz Snapdragon was the HTC HD2 and that just hit the market in the USA a month or so ago.

Really, even a mild 100Mhz bump helps matters quite a bit. Had Palm gone with, say, the Treo Pro's 1500mAh battery and overclocked the Pre's CPU by 100Mhz or 200Mhz or so by default, and shipped it with the Plus' 512mb RAM (as opposed to the 256 in the original) it would've been a considerably better performer from launch.

And why, oh why, can they not give hardware acceleration to the UI? Also, could there be any correlation between slow NAN flash memory and the sluggish performance? Is that another spec that Palm got cheap with? I mean, to open an email attachment is pretty frustrating unless you are on a heavily overclocked Pre.

Yes Palm had access to chips that could run webOS at acceptable speeds, but they cheaped out assuming they could "make it work" with what they specced. 800 MHz would have probably been good enough to make the Pre's lagginess disappear and in the meantime they would have had time to work on the OS issues without pissing off their customers on a daily basis.

800 MHz OMAP3440:
http://edageek.com/2008/02/11/mobile-internet-mid/
http://tinyurl.com/y44ydkk

webOS is another Cobalt-styled resource hog, but the OMAP3440 could have brute forced the OS into submission at launch time. (To be honest, though, the Pre's OMAP3430 was a good CPU for its time and SHOULD have been good enough to provide snappy performance - the software people let the hardware architect down on this one.)

As usual, Palm pinched pennies where they shouldn't have, especially knowing the Pre was their company's Hail Mary device. Cheap plastic, cheap slider, tiny battery, too slow a processor, etc. The upgraded parts and materials would probably have added a "whopping" $10 to the build cost, but would have been a wise investment in terms of avoiding multiple returned units, bad press, angered longtime supporters and damage to the company name.

The myriad of OS issues like the legendary "Memory Full Error" http://tinyurl.com/y757tew, the iTunes sync cat and mouse game, etc all point to an OS having been released not yet ready for prime time.

Looking back over the last 10 years, is it any surprise that Palm would screw up their last chance at a comeback? This is the same company that has given us unforgettable moments like:

m505 Brightness Hack and the Hungarian Conspiracy
SUDS
Landfilled Vx and IIIxe
Abandoned webclipping
Wobbly T3 sliders and digitizer woes
T5 NAND flash disaster
Be
Pump&Dump 101: And introductory course to blatant stock manipulation
Treo 650 memory disaster
Palm/pa1m0ne/PalmSource/Palm
Yankowski/Nagel/Gassee/Benhamou/Colligan
LifeDrive lag
Treo 700p lag
TX digitizer woes
Butchered MultiMail and Chatteremail carcasses in the Palm freezer
anyday.com
wesync.com
Abandoned Palm Desktop
Sodomized developers
Abandoned PalmOS
"PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in"

FJH
Foleo user, Palm historian

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/17/2010 11:58:04 PM # Q
Uh, yea. You're talking a software issue, not a hardware issue. iphone OS has had three years of optimizations and enhancements, while webos is just 10 mos. old.

Palm did not have the luxury of waiting 3 years to tweak webOS. They had ONE shot to get it right out of the gate and blew it. If they knew the OS couldn't run adequately on the hardware they should have fixed the problem or upgraded the hardware BEFORE releasing the Pre to unsuspecting customers. The utter contempt Palm continues to display towards customers and developers is quite remarkable.

The fact that the Pres in the early CES demo seemed to be blazing fast compared to the Pres that actually shipped 6 MONTHS later suggests the demo was a textbook example of Smoke & Mirrors. Did Palm pull a "bait and switch" with the hardware? Ya think?

Doesn't matter how it felt; it was a piece of junk. The issue was more than just software: underpowered hardware (for the price), piss poor video capabilities, and average form factor.

No, the Foleo was a well built, high quality netbook that lacked an adequate CPU. The form factor was just about perfect for a mobile laptop. Again, you ignorance is showing. "Junk" is what describes most of the PDA and smartphone hardware sold by Palm since the Vx.

Check your numbers; it's 75 million.

http://images.appleinsider.com/munster-100106.png

Many of those iPhones have been sold to people who upgraded from earlier models, so I wouldn't count them all as separate customers. The iPod Touch supposedly reached over 20 million sales last Fall, but it's impossible to tell how many sales also went to repeat customers or iPhone owners.

My statement that developers have a market of "over 20 million potential customers" was conservative. Your estimate of 75 million is certainly wrong.

That's an issue with having an immature os that hasn't been optimized. I don't see any lag on my iphone 3gs running a beta of iphone os 4 - same cpu as the pre, half as much memory as the pre plus. difference is iphone os vs. webos.

webos may be innovative, but it hasn't matured.

It doesn't matter who the culprit is - the result is the same: a crappy user experience. If the OS is choking the hardware it's Palm's responsibility to provide users with better hardware. Comparing performance of iPhone OS vs webOS is an Apple(s) versus Orange(logo)s comparison. Pointless. They are two completely different OSes and phones. The fact that they share the same the same processor is meaningless. If a tractor trailer and is fitted with a Porsche engine do you expect it to perform like the Porsche?

Oh, you also forgot the tiny screen. BTW, that's the shitty build quality I mentioned :)

I think the Pre screen is quite adequate, but then I prefer smaller form factors like the Pre and the Centro over the clown phones that everyone seems to be selling now. I would not include the Pre's screen in a list about "shitty build quality".

That's idiotic; if Palm had included a 1 ghz. cpu they'd need a much larger battery to power it - and that would blow their form factor. Much better for Palm to have worked on optimizing the OS to perform acceptably on the current lineup of hardware.

An 800 MHz processor and a higher density battery would have solved the problem with very little drama and at minimal cost to Palm. Instead, they now have the situation where they have warehouses full of Pres that the carriers can't seem to even give away. Verizon has a few hundred thousand unsold Pre and has resorted to offering 2 for 1 deals and a free Wi-Fi hotspot promotion to Pre customers. All outlets seem to be cutting the Pre's price lower every month. Sprint appears to be ready to make the HTC EVO it's showcase device starting in 2 months. The Palm CEO is publicly whining about Verizon not having given Palm a fair chance. WTF? Fix the damed phones, already. Late June will see the release of the monstrous HTC EVO, followed a week later by the announcement of iPhone 4. Pre and Pixi are like lambs going to the slaughter:

Clarice Starling: It was... screaming. Some kind of screaming, like a child's voice.

Hannibal Lecter: What did you do?

Clarice Starling: I went downstairs, outside. I crept up into the barn. I was so scared to look inside, but I had to.

Hannibal Lecter: And what did you see, Clarice? What did you see?

Clarice Starling: Lambs. The lambs were screaming.

Hannibal Lecter: They were slaughtering the spring lambs?

Clarice Starling: And they were screaming.

FJH
You'd better smile when you say "Foleo", buddy

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/18/2010 12:08:08 AM # Q
The CPU in the Pre should be more than adequate.

Should be, but isn't. That's just not acceptable in an industry where you're supposed to be competing directly with the likes of iPhone and half a dozen HTC Android phones.

The bigger question is considering all of the work Palm put into webos UI to provide a stellar user experience, why the hell didn't they optimize webos to ensure that the pre and pixi performed well.

User Experience is more than just the UI...

Palm has limited coding resources and just ran out of time finishing webOS in time for the Pre's release on Sprint. The product manager made the call to release the Pre with a beta version of webOS and to try and patch it as quickly and as frequently as possible. Sort of like the way GM, Ford and Chrysler traditionally built their vehicles. If Palm is Chrysler then Apple is Honda. And we all know what happened to Chrysler...


FJH


RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
nastebu @ 4/18/2010 5:00:44 AM # Q

Check your numbers; it's 75 million.

http://images.appleinsider.com/munster-100106.png

Many of those iPhones have been sold to people who upgraded from earlier models, so I wouldn't count them all as separate customers. The iPod Touch supposedly reached over 20 million sales last Fall, but it's impossible to tell how many sales also went to repeat customers or iPhone owners.

My statement that developers have a market of "over 20 million potential customers" was conservative. Your estimate of 75 million is certainly wrong.

From those numbers, in 09 more than 25 million iPhone OS units were sold. So unless 5 million people bought two iPhones and threw away one, 20 million is certainly a very wrong number. Even if you assume that half of each year's buyers were replacing a previous iteration iphone, and that every one of those people threw their phone away rather than pass it on to someone else (very conservative assumptions), you end up with 33 million users by the end of 09.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/18/2010 6:58:15 AM # Q
Well, I just checked - my numbers were wrong:

over 50 million iphones have been sold, along with 35 million ipod touch devices - so the total is actually 85 million devices.

http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/1004fk8d5gt/event/

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/18/2010 7:11:34 AM # Q
Palm has limited coding resources and just ran out of time finishing webOS in time for the Pre's release on Sprint.

That just means poor project management of webos.

The #1 priority of webos should have been performance; glossy "nice to have" features should have been pushed back to later (staged) releases.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/18/2010 7:27:46 AM # Q
No, the Foleo was a well built, high quality netbook that lacked an adequate CPU.

There's a reason it's called a Fooleo:

- Underpowered CPU (400 Mhz.)
- Limited RAM (128 meg)
- Poor video capabilities

"Junk" is what describes most of the PDA and smartphone hardware sold by Palm since the Vx.

"Junk" is paying $499 for a "high quality" boat anchor; the Fooleo looks like something that was put together in 1995.

The problem at the time was that the $499 Fooleo was actually quite underpowered - and much too expensive.

Palm made the right decision to kill it, but if Palm had evolved the Fooleo, given it multimedia capabilities, an innovative form factor, and better hardware, Palm would have made a fortune.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/18/2010 8:40:20 AM # Q
From those numbers, in 09 more than 25 million iPhone OS units were sold. So unless 5 million people bought two iPhones and threw away one, 20 million is certainly a very wrong number. Even if you assume that half of each year's buyers were replacing a previous iteration iphone, and that every one of those people threw their phone away rather than pass it on to someone else (very conservative assumptions), you end up with 33 million users by the end of 09.

I would estimate that there are 30 to 40 million iPhones in active use and 15 to 20 million iPod Touch in active use. I suspect a lot of iPhone users are Apple fans who also own iPod Touch devices. Since no one has any way of accurately determining the true number of individual iPhone OS users I proposed a conservative estimate: "over 20 million potential customers". If you want to assume every single device sold is still being used by a different individual and that every single device owner purchases iPhone apps (both assumptions are incorrect) then go right ahead. It appears that you missed the chapter on "sets" in school.

FJH

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 4/18/2010 9:39:55 AM # Q
That just means poor project management of webos.

The #1 priority of webos should have been performance; glossy "nice to have" features should have been pushed back to later (staged) releases.

No it means they had limited resources and tried to ration them appropriately, but failed. Have you ever managed a massive project? Palm needed to make a splash with webOS and the Pre, so showing up with a crude-but-functional "School Marm OS" was not an option for us. Palm decided that it would hurt them less to release a beta OS than it would to delay the Pre until the OS was fully baked (probably a year or more later). In the case of the Foleo and Cobalt they pulled the plug when they realized that they/PalmSource couldn't deliver on expectations in time. In the case of the Treo 700p, LifeDrive, T5, etc Palm chose its usual route of shipping whatever they had when it was due rather than when it was ready. This is a reflection of the culture of arrogance that is still so pervasive at Palm. Like the domestic car manufacturers Palm shows utter contempt towards its customers. If they cared about their customers they would have taken steps from Day 1 to have avoided putting themselves in the position where they ran out of time adequately developing their products.

No one is saying Palm should be expected to ship hardware + software that is 100% bug-free/defect-free. But to have the gall to ship products that have massive amounts of missing functionality (Foleo, Pre), showstopping OBVIOUS bugs (Treo 650, Treo 700p, T5, LifeDrive, etc.) or substandard hardware (Pre) and then pretend that everything is just peachy is unacceptable. With proper management since 2000 Palm could EASILY have been now where Apple and RIM are in 2010: on top. Instead, we saw a decade's worth of wasted opportunities and unrealized potential.

It's obvious that Palm is stalling with webOS as they search for a buyer. Hopefully whoever buys Palm will quickly develop it to its potential and finally release it on some high quality hardware.

There's a reason it's called a Fooleo:

- Underpowered CPU (400 Mhz.)
- Limited RAM (128 meg)
- Poor video capabilities

The specs you list coud easily have been upgraded for $20. Lack of Flash was a software limitation that was to be fixed a few moths after the Foleo's release. The Foleo specs were over 2 years out of date at the time of the (cancelled) release because the project was severely delayed by numerous issues with the architecture. Palm had bitten off more than it could chew and ran out of time finishing the OS, apps and features. Sound familiar?

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.


"Junk" is paying $499 for a "high quality" boat anchor; the Fooleo looks like something that was put together in 1995.

The problem at the time was that the $499 Fooleo was actually quite underpowered - and much too expensive.

Palm made the right decision to kill it, but if Palm had evolved the Fooleo, given it multimedia capabilities, an innovative form factor, and better hardware, Palm would have made a fortune.

Again, you spout off on the Foleo and yet you never used one. Your ignorance about the Foleo is so flagrant I would love to see your reaction if you ever got the opportunity to use one for a week. Yes, the Foleo was underpowered and expensive, but those problems were easily fixed. The form factor was brilliant. It predated the netbook craze and had better build quality than any other device that Palm has released. The Foleo felt like a piece of high end audio electronics than it did a laptop. Had Palm released it on time (early 2006) with the planned software in place it would have been as revolutionary as Hawkins claimed. I would suggest you learn a lot more about the Foleo firsthand before you spout more nonsense here. Ask anyone who has personal experience with the Foleo - your posts disparaging it are downright silly.

FJH

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/18/2010 9:45:20 AM # Q
The actual count of "sold" units is (as I stated) 85 million; I took off about 12% for abandoned devices.

My statement that developers have a market of "over 20 million potential customers" was conservative. Your estimate of 75 million is certainly wrong.

Your statement was blatantly inaccurate, with an objective to downplay the installed base of iphone users, while my # is a bit closer to reality.

Enough back-pedaling please; go back to telling us how the Fooleo was such a magnificent feat of engineering.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
mikecane @ 4/18/2010 10:19:47 AM # Q
>>>iphone OS has had three years of optimizations and enhancements, while webos is just 10 mos. old.

Zzzzzzzz. While a dinky what, 8MHz CPU?, Palm Pilot had no delay in referencing the Calendar instantly, you make excuses for webOS on a multi-00MHz CPU?

Puhleeze.

Next!

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/18/2010 10:58:42 AM # Q
I wasn't making excuses...
RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
freakout @ 4/18/2010 9:54:11 PM # Q
Three months away, and jca666us is still here? Colour me sad...

For the record, I think the webOS netbook has always been a question of "when", not "if". The rationale behind the Foleo still makes sense today.
Tim
Sometime PIC blogger
Treo 270 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680 -> Centro -> Pre
I apologise for any and all emoticons in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
jca666us @ 4/19/2010 3:40:53 AM # Q
Freak, what rock did you crawl out from under? :)

For the record, I think the webOS netbook has always been a question of "when", not "if". The rationale behind the Foleo still makes sense today.

However, as we have seen, Palm (the company) cannot sell enough devices and services to support the Palm ecosystem.

While the rationale behind the Foleo makes sense today (see ipad), the question of a webos netbook is one of "never" - so long as Palm is teetering on financial ruin.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
rpa @ 4/19/2010 5:30:46 AM # Q
You guys should give up speculating about any new Palm phones or tablets. Ain't gonna happen. The only options are: a) find a buyer, or b) plan for chapter 11 later this year. I would like to see Lenovo pick them up to spread WebOS cross multiple devices but it's possible WebOS could go the way of Betamax as a tech footnote.
RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
mikecane @ 4/19/2010 6:46:38 AM # Q
A webOS notebook makes as much sense as an iPhone OS notebook.

It's all about TOUCH.

As for Lenovo ... no, I don't think we're going to see that happen.

Really, Palm's only hope is Asus.

But maybe Asus sees they just need to wait for The End to acquire everything for pennies on the dollar. Really, why would they want to get entangled in the mess of dealing with legacy contracts?

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
nastebu @ 4/19/2010 6:54:16 AM # Q
Fake Jeff Hawkins wrote:
From those numbers, in 09 more than 25 million iPhone OS units were sold. So unless 5 million people bought two iPhones and threw away one, 20 million is certainly a very wrong number. Even if you assume that half of each year's buyers were replacing a previous iteration iphone, and that every one of those people threw their phone away rather than pass it on to someone else (very conservative assumptions), you end up with 33 million users by the end of 09.

I would estimate that there are 30 to 40 million iPhones in active use and 15 to 20 million iPod Touch in active use. I suspect a lot of iPhone users are Apple fans who also own iPod Touch devices. Since no one has any way of accurately determining the true number of individual iPhone OS users I proposed a conservative estimate: "over 20 million potential customers". If you want to assume every single device sold is still being used by a different individual and that every single device owner purchases iPhone apps (both assumptions are incorrect) then go right ahead. It appears that you missed the chapter on "sets" in school.

FJH

I made no such assumption as "every single device sold is still being used by a different individual and that every single device owner purchases iPhone apps." In the passage *you quote* I suggest 33 million as a very conservative estimate. Saying 20 million users, even with the weasel-word "over"--when 25 million devices were sold in 09 alone isn't a conservative estimate, it's deliberate undercounting. An estimate should be a reasonable guess, not a distortion.

RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
nastebu @ 4/19/2010 6:56:40 AM # Q
Welcome back to the world Freak. I hope the army wasn't too hard on you.
RE: webOS netbook - it's time to unveil the future.
freakout @ 4/20/2010 1:54:41 AM # Q
^^ Not at all. Had myself a good time. Am no longer a filthy Recruit but a proper (trainee) Signalman now. Sorting out a good wireless 'net plan in the next week or so and will hopefully return to blogging not long after that. Seems I have a fair bit of catching up to do with Palm news...
Reply to this comment

Ruby just killed any speculation about a WebOS Tablet

2klbs @ 4/22/2010 12:44:13 PM # Q
in the near future:

**As for licensing webOS, Rubinstein called the idea "an interesting concept" and said Palm may be willing to do so, if the "right strategic partner came along with the right kind of business model." **

Read: "Nobody's biting"
Not "Pre-verted"- Android Assimilation?

RE: Ruby just killed any speculation about a WebOS Tablet
e_tellurian @ 4/22/2010 2:31:37 PM # Q
Is there still focus on maintaining Palm as a North American pioneer? Does the hardware give Palm a presence in the market place? Or is the strategy to license webOS and ignore the hardware? Perhaps have other people build the hardware and just stay afloat with webOS. Is webOS enough to be an independent North American pioneer or is hardware needed too? Do people see Palm as an entity through hardware or just software? Is it equally important for Palm to have solid hardware as it is to have solid software? Do facilities exist in the world to make titanium and precious metal hardware or is it all plastic.

If you ask people if Palm builds hardware or software will they say both or one. Which do people most identify Palm as a hardware developer or a software developer or both. Is it cheaper to develop hardware or software?

Just some thoughts to kick around.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Ruby just killed any speculation about a WebOS Tablet
e_tellurian @ 4/22/2010 2:43:52 PM # Q
Is Palm being deliberately wound down and why? Is the thinking that North America can stay competitive without competition? Does Palm push the envelope of innovation encouraging others to do better? Are some people making money whether Palm falls or not? Who has the greatest incentive to see Palm survive as a complete independent entity that can make hardware and software based on vision not just what existing manufacturers can build? Are we only building what manufacturers can build or are we building on ideas and vision too? Is the market dictated to by what can be build vs what could/should be built?

Just some thoughts to kick around.

E-T
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: Ruby just killed any speculation about a WebOS Tablet
e_tellurian @ 4/22/2010 3:00:53 PM # Q
How much manufacturing of North American innovation is taking place in North America and manufactured by nation that have shared their thoughts. It seems as though China is the only place manufacturing high tech innovation yet the people thinking about the innovation work for free. Is it the intellectual content that gives factories something to do? Is it logical that nations that share thoughts together should also manufacture their ideas together? Has our lack of creativity, or the Jestson dilemma been caused by the inability to bring our own thoughts to market in a timely fashion?

Does North America and our allies need to manufacture our own ideas and/or ideas built with others that shared their thought to get ideas to market?

Just some thoughts to kick around.
e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

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