Comments on: Veo Cancels 1.3MP Camera for Tungstens

Veo has cancelled their planned 1.3 megapixel SDIO camera. The Veo Photo Traveler 130 S was to be released in Februray for most palmOne Tungsten handhelds.
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Figures...

wendo @ 3/10/2004 7:13:58 PM #
Why is this not surprising....


-----

Pilot 5000, Palm IIIc, Clie N710c, Clie NR70v, Tungsten T, Tungsten T2, Tungsten T3, ???

RE: Figures...
abosco @ 3/10/2004 7:32:03 PM #
Just one more reason why SD can't touch CF II. I don't care how many MP3 players and digital cameras use it - get a PDA with a CF slot and CF->SD slug. Cheaper media, larger sizes, more peripherals. Plus the card doesn't feel like it's going to snap between your thumb and index finger.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: Figures...
Token User @ 3/10/2004 8:48:21 PM #
I think the issue is that Veo realised that most devices only have a single slot ... and that would be taken by SanDisks Wifi card ... or a similar bluetooth module 8^)

I'd love to know the issues they are having getting this out. Underpowered devices (volts at the slot)?? Non multitasking OS?? or just poor market research on what acessories people want. Guess we will never know.

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: Figures...
ollieollie82 @ 3/10/2004 9:45:20 PM #
wouldn't it be more likely that they were probably having the same issues Sandisk is having now with their WiFI cards? Thats what I feel anyway

RE: Figures...
RhinoSteve @ 3/10/2004 10:29:20 PM #
Nope, it is called the replacement to the Zire 71 is going to make this totally unwanted. One trick pony expansion hardware has a lifetime of less than a year in this market.
RE: Figures...
abosco @ 3/10/2004 10:30:30 PM #
Supposedly, SanDisk isn't really having any problems getting the Wifi card to work. I think the problem was contracting fees between PalmSource and SanDisk.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: Figures...
tfftruoa @ 3/10/2004 11:15:34 PM #
That makes no sense if it's true. Why would palmsource want to stop the developement of possibly the most anticipated palm periferal of all time? They are looking to grow the platform as a whole, and every palm that does not have wifi as an expandability is an excuse for people to buy a pocket pc that does.

For the camera, if the hardware is available, and a beta driver is available than I might actually buy it (Unless the driver is only available for people who have already bought the hadware).

Just a random thought, but both wifi card and camera are functional hardware lacking drivers for a certain os, so isn't this the kinda thing that opensource is intended for?

The Federation for the Responsible Use of Acronyms

RE: Figures...
gidora @ 3/11/2004 12:15:29 AM #
It's the same problem the original Veocam had. There's no way of capturing the pictures to extrnal memory once the SD slot is filled by the camera. With the pictures taking up twice as much space as the orginal Veo, an SD camera WITHOUT additional flash memory - say 32 or 64M - is of limited utility. I find myself offloading pictures after 20 or onto another SD card. Then, to get the conduit to convert the PDBs to JPEGs, I've got to xfer them back to the internal memory before sync (or use the pricey Veo Transfer shareware). Worse, the CCD was somewhat Holga-like even under the best lighting condition.
RE: Figures...
CGN @ 3/11/2004 4:12:22 AM #
Hmmm... typical... as one of the most wanted Accessories (the 130S camera) I'm a bit disappointed. But this is - as I have figured it out - a standard procedure. Promises and take backs. Where's the SD FM radio module, the SD Bluetooth card, and so on? And bow - the camera? I'm still waiting for those extra functions but I think now, after a year or so into the Palm OS world, that this is a dead end. Did the people on Palm think that I would be pleased only with the calendar, mail and adress-facilities in a Tungsten C? And no Bluetooth? Times to reconsider? And try another product?
Regards /CGN

Regards /CGN
RE: Figures...
rory @ 3/11/2004 8:46:39 AM #
I agree with the comment on CF being superior to SD. While I still marvel at how small SD cards are, a CF slot would offer a lot more choice to Palm users and probably make it a lot easier for a company like Veo to squeeze in additional storage and the camera circuitry.

I think once mini hard drives start becoming the norm in portable devices, flash based memory cards days are numbered anyway unless someone finds away of making multi GB flash cards affordable.

--
Visor Deluxe > iPod > Clie SJ33 > Zire 71 > ?

RE: Figures...
sremick @ 3/11/2004 9:50:39 AM #
CF is not "superior" to SD anymore than a pickup truck is superior to a bicycle. They serve different purposes.

CF is very versatile, however it requires a huge pinout connector and takes up a LOT of space. I think it may also be more power-hungry but I'm not positive.

SD on the other hand has only 9 connectors and is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller (1/3rd the volume). A SD connector is tiny.

I've seen the inside of a T3. There's no ROOM for a CF connector in there. It's PACKED. In the ultra-small world of PDAs, SD is the logical choice. It could do all the things of CF if the companies would just get their act together, while winning over CF on the size factor.

Do you want your Palms to be bigger for the sake of having a CF slot? If so, and there are enough of you, maybe the PDA manufacturers will decide it's worth the R&D and develop a bulkier line of PDAs to cater to you. However, I hear far more people complain about the size of their PDA than the lack of CF. Personally, I don't want my PDA to be ANY bigger. In fact, I'd be much happier if my T3 were the size of my m505. AND had better battery-life. I'm not alone. How you going to pull off those 2 AND stick a CF in there? Not going to happen.

Also keep in-mind that having CF hardware means nothing if there are no DRIVERS. Seems to me we have some cool SD hardware out too but still have the DRIVERS issue anyways (ahem SANDISK). Who knows whether Veo's issues were driver-related or not, but it seems the hardware existed...

SD exists... I'd rather see them stick with SD and develop the hardware/drivers and use the extra space for more BATTERY than retrofit an older-style connector (CF) into modern PDAs.

Oh, and as far as your comment about microdrives replacing flash... that's never going to happen. There's DEFINITELY a battery-usage gap between the two. You take a huge hit on battery life by going from something solid-state (flash) to mechanical (hard drive). There are HUGE numbers of people who will pay the premium for flash on this reason alone. Then there's the size issue, which I've already mentioned above.

Oh, and you know you can't use microdrives over an altitude of 9,000', right? :)

RE: Figures...
hkklife @ 3/11/2004 11:12:00 AM #
SDIO peripherals (not just this Veo cam) are dead in the water unless two things happen:

1. Palm starts releasing handhelds soon with 128mb ram & dual SD slots (with at leat one of the two needing to be SDIO ala Zodiac). Truth be told, I don't see POne doing this anytime soon. If you could have a 512mb SD and a wi-fi SD card in a first-gen dual SD Palm, then why upgrade to the newer model with all of that built-in? Palm will always try to nudge users into buying new handhelds with integrated solutions (Z71, T|C) especially now that the hardware line's been left solo to fend for themselves. If that leaves more room for the licensees to swoop in and steal sales, then so be it. Palm still has far deeper pockets to fund R&D than does Tapwave.

2. Someone writes some better drivers/software for the peripherals that resides on the card so that it's a real p'n'p device. 32mb onboard memory on the accessory itself would be a good starting point-no swapping cards, no Veo transfer pricey software to buy etc. I can guarantee as soon as the wi-fi SD cards are out, we'll hear whining about how the T3's 64mb isn't enough etc. I personally couldn't manage with an SD smaller than 128mb now that I've filled over 1/2 of my 512mb card. Granted, a lot of that is MP3s but still...I want wi-fi but not at the expense of all my external storage.

RE: Figures...
scstraus2 @ 3/11/2004 12:22:50 PM #
Arg. I was hoping to put this in my Zodiac (which does have 2 slots!). It would have been so nice to not have to carry a digicam and a handheld. Now my dreams are dashed. Those bastards!

RE: Figures...
ganoe @ 3/11/2004 1:18:30 PM #
> That makes no sense if it's true. Why would palmsource want to stop the
> developement of possibly the most anticipated palm periferal of all time?

I assume you're talking about the WiFi card here. Much like CF support and other hardware, I posted this like a year ago, but I really think the Palm licensing fees are driving the smaller players out of the Palm market (Fossil, Handspring, HandEra, ... where are those Samsung phones?). The way the OS is structured (I sure hope this is fixed in OS 6) makes licensing necessary for card drivers as well (WiFi, probably this camera too), so there go more hardware companies (SanDisk, Veo, etc.). Without a huge change, I really expect it to be just PalmOne and Sony within a year or so.

RE: Figures...
sremick @ 3/11/2004 1:23:20 PM #
I don't see why dual SD cards would be a requirement. Granted, they might make SOME functions easier (such as an SD digicam) but not all.

For example, on my T3 I have 64MB onboard and a 256MB SD card. Most of what is on the SD card are games, reference material, media (songs/movies/pics), and a few apps. I'd happily pop it out and pop in a WiFi SD card to do some online stuff. I'm used to keeping certain apps in the onboard 64MB and still have 27MB free anyway.

Or how about a serious SD encyclopedia that fully-utilized a 512MB SD card, w/ pics? I wouldn't mind at all replacing my 256MB data SD card with the encyclopedia one when I need to do some serious researching.

In case you hadn't noticed, removing and inserting SD cards is pretty darn easy. Most Palm cases contain slots for spare cards. I've never had more than one yet ONLY because that the only useful ones out there have been memory. Give me some variety and I'll carry more and love every second of it.

Dual SD has it's uses, but it's NOT a prerequisite for widespread SD adoption.

RE: Figures...
abosco @ 3/11/2004 2:48:02 PM #
>>CF is very versatile, however it requires a huge pinout connector and takes up a LOT of space. I think it may also be more power-hungry but I'm not positive.

This is a myth. It's all in the OEM's approach in incorporating it. HP executed it perfectly with the H2215, adding in dual slots in a form barely larger than the H1900 series. Take that form factor, add in Wifi in addition to Bluetooth, and you truly have a perfect device with very limited drawbacks.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

RE: Figures...
M3wThr33 @ 3/11/2004 5:51:32 PM #
You have to be crazy to tell me that a PDA with an SD slot is just the same size as one with the a CF slot.
Look, if my Zire71 had CF instead of SD, I'd either have no room for the IR port or headphone jack.

Space is tight on new handhelds, and CF just doesn't cut it anymore. My last Palm was a Handspring Visor Platinum and I had the MemPlug for it. Carrying around multiple SD cards is MUCH easier than a SINGLE CF card.

I don't care about power (Which CF is a whore about, especially microdrives), but I do care about fitting the sucker in my pocket.

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We're in space.

RE: Figures...
Token User @ 3/11/2004 5:57:27 PM #
Look, if my Zire71 had CF instead of SD, I'd either have no room for the IR port or headphone jack. ...
or you could take out the camera.

All these arguments are about tradeoffs. Each of us (well, most of us) here have a PalmOS device of some sort another. Why do we buy one over the other? I think you'd find that we looked at budgets, and then looked at the features available for what was out there.

Personally, I went for the Clie NX70V - and not for the dinky camera (though taking photos of the whiteboard in meetings is a neat applicaiton) - but for the screen size, and the WiFi card that I could take out and use a CF memory card with, as well as the (proprietary) MemStick. So, where is the BT MemStick? The next time I upgrade (probably next year with PalmOS 6 devices), I'll seek out the large screen and dual expansion again (integrated wifi/bt a bonus).

For photos, I'll stick to my 35mm SLR - old school, but infinitely better pixel count 8^).

Life is full of disappointments, but for the willing, the Veo is up on eBay for about $65. Perhaps, grabbing one of them and begging Veo for the drivers might work out for some.

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: abosco
TTrules @ 3/11/2004 6:24:34 PM #
Abosco wrote:
>Just one more reason why SD can't touch CF II. I don't care how many MP3 players and digital cameras use it - get a PDA with a CF slot and CF->SD slug. Cheaper media, larger sizes, more peripherals. Plus the card doesn't feel like it's going to snap between your thumb and index finger.<

The cf connectors may not be the issue size wise, but the physical size is. The cf requires alot more space as well as being slower than sd and MUCH larger. Not to mention the fact that cf requires more battary power than sd, which I hardly feel inclined to give up. I doubt cf will be around much longer, while I'm guessing sd is not even half way through it's life span.

One Palm to rule them all!

RE: Figures...
abosco @ 3/11/2004 7:59:22 PM #
I don't understand how some people are under this enormous misconception that CF is being phased out or how SD is somehow better because its slot is the same depth but half the thickness. I don't know of any PDA's that are .2 inches thick, correct me if I'm wrong.

Step one to clearing up this misconception is realizing BrightHand greatly jumped the gun in declaring CF as being a technology soon to be phased out.

Step two is to understand that CF appeared to make a device larger because the OEM's that first incorporated it got incredibly lazy. The HandEra 330, Axim, and other PPC's, etc that used CF cards were amazingly thick. Two OEM's did a good job with CF integration - Sony and HP. HP's H2215 is an amazingly small size and weight, yet it includes DUAL slots. Yes, it's thinner and smaller than many single-slotted SD handhelds. And Sony incorporated a retracting CF slot in the NX80v in the same size as the NR70v of the year before.

Step three is realizing SD still can't touch CF in a number of qualities, including speed, cost, and sizes. TTRules, I don't know how you got this idea that CF is slower than SD, but more pins equals higher speeds on devices that can take advantage of it. Trust me, CF can operate at much faster speeds.

And then there's this:
>>Look, if my Zire71 had CF instead of SD, I'd either have no room for the IR port or headphone jack.

Palm could have included a CF II slot, SDIO slot, camera, IR port, and headphone jack if they wanted to. IR ports have been on sides of devices before, as have headphone jacks, a CF slot on top, and an SD slot near the bottom. Hell, add the slider for the camera too if you really like it. Once again I point to HP's H2215.

H2215: 3" x 4.54" x .61" 5.1oz, 8.31 in^3
Zire 71: 4.5" x 2.9" x .7" 5.3oz, 10.44 in^3

I implore you to find a way to prove CF is too bulky for handhelds given this data. Stop taking Brighthand's word for it and research stuff for yourself!

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

RE: Figures...
ganoe @ 3/12/2004 6:51:46 AM #
> The HandEra 330, Axim, and other PPC's, etc that used CF cards were
> amazingly thick. Two OEM's did a good job with CF integration - Sony and HP.

I am not sure where your collected your info, but AFAIK, the HandEra 330 is thinner than any Sony PDA with a CF slot. No drivers from Sony does not equal "good integration" either.

HandEra 330 - 0.7"
NX70V - 0.93"
NX80V - 0.875"
NZ90 - 0.9"

RE: Figures...
Wollombi @ 3/12/2004 1:40:34 PM #
Sorry guys, but Bosco is right on this one. CF is still a very viable technology, with the ability to add many more peripherals than SD currently. The power drain of CF over SD isn't really that much.

Additionally, the Handera is *slightly* thicker than the SOnlys unless you count the NZ90, which is a total brick and had lackluster sales. The CF "hump" on the early NX series made it overall about the same size as the Handera, but most of the unit was thinner.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Figures...
abosco @ 3/12/2004 2:45:04 PM #
>>I am not sure where your collected your info, but AFAIK, the HandEra 330 is thinner than any Sony PDA with a CF slot. No drivers from Sony does not equal "good integration" either.

>>HandEra 330 - 0.7"
NX70V - 0.93"
NX80V - 0.875"
NZ90 - 0.9"

What I had compared with Sony calling it "good integration" was the NX80v in relation to the NR70v. If you look, the NX70v didn't have good integration since it slapped the slot on the back, but the 80 made it sucked into the unit and pop out when in need. This is a great idea to keep the volume down, and that's true innovation. Applaud Sony for a good idea on that.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

CompactFlash makes SD look like the sad joke it is. Wake up!
;-( @ 3/13/2004 4:31:55 PM #
The cf connectors may not be the issue size wise, but the physical size is. The cf requires alot more space as well as being slower than sd and MUCH larger. Not to mention the fact that cf requires more battary power than sd, which I hardly feel inclined to give up. I doubt cf will be around much longer, while I'm guessing sd is not even half way through it's life span.


It's sad to see this type of nonsense repeated on the Internet. You're a victim of BS press releases and misinformation spread by the SD manufacturers. Their spin doctors have been saying SD is the next big thing for so long that some people actually now believe it. Look at the FACTS and you'll see that CompactFlash is a much more practical media format than SD. Faster. Much less expensive. Much larger storage sizes. Robust. Reliable. Real (non-vaporware) expansion cards. HandEra was one of the few Palm manufacturers that was smart enough to see that CF is better than SD. They had no hidden agendas and simply chose the format they knew was the best. Too bad Palm pulled the plug on them. Now, Palm users are left to begging Sony to put out a dual CF/Memory Stick device. Will it happen? We'll see.


It's massive. Massive.

RE: Figures...
ganoe @ 3/15/2004 2:10:43 PM #
> Additionally, the Handera is *slightly* thicker than the Sonys [...]

I am not going to get into a big argument about it, but I am going to repeat: No, it is not. The fact that some of the NX series at their thinnest points might be the same thickness as the HandEra 330 does not make the 330 thicker.

What is the difference?

euan_rideout @ 3/11/2004 1:48:49 AM #
I bought the original Veo camera and the only difference I can find is the is that it can play video clips. I was quite disappointed with the one that I have got since it takes me forever to focus the picture. The picture isn't very good and you have to bring the contrast right down to get a decent picture. I found it hard to get the photos on the computer because I have no administrative rights and since I have the M130 I only have 8MB to save photos on and don't have any memory for all my programs.
Better go with the Zire 71.

?

Haber @ 3/11/2004 8:01:05 AM #
If the product was canceled, how did it get out to consumers already...

RE: ?
hkklife @ 3/11/2004 9:43:54 AM #
The "PPC Version" is already available for sale. It's the same camera, possibly with differnt cosmetics, in different packaging & with a different installation CD (Palm vs. PPC). If the cancellation of this camera isn't indicative of a 1.3mp Zire 7x, I don't know what is! Also, we'll probably see a higher res. Treo later on this year. I think the reasons for the cancellation were purely $-related and not technical. Also, Veo realized people don't want a fragile, non-flash equipped camera protruding out of their PDA. It's just asking to get broken!

A big waste to segment the product like that-confuses retailers & consumers alike by creating 2 different SKUs. A dual-format package with a CD containing all of the necessary software for both platforms would be a sure-fire thing. Or, only made the Palm driver available on the Palm-branded version of the camera. Either way, I'm not surprised. There are a number of half-a**ed peripheral makers out there doing PDA stuff nowadays--Veo, iBiz, Logitech (remember the MIA OS5 drivers for that rollup keyboard?) and, most tellingly, Sandisk.I would have to really want something by one of these companies to know that it'll effectively be a forgotten product by the time it hits retail. Thus, one reason I am skeptical of the support given to that new "projection" keyboard iBiz has coming out.

Like it or not, anything with Palm's name on it has been pricier but has at least had unwavering support. My m500 modem still works with my T3 (granted, it's native OS driver support but still), my original m500 keyboard still has regular driver updates from Palm/Think Outside, and I can still download new Palm desktop software for my Pilot 5000. Hard to say that for anyone else these days.



RE: ?
Altema @ 3/11/2004 12:45:58 PM #
Yeah you're right, they could have used one package with a CD for both installations. Ditto on the palmOne devices... I bought the PPK for my first M505 a long time ago, and it has worked with every device since. Matter of fact, we have seven handhelds (two M130's, one M505, one M515, one Z71, and two T3's) and they all can use any of our three keyboards, and they all sync to the same desktop.

RE: ?
pkuhns @ 3/11/2004 4:38:23 PM #
hkklife hit the nail on the head. This is a business decision, not a technology, form factor, ease-of-use, or pricing decision. Palm is coming out with a 1.3Mpixel camera in the next Zire. I just hope that Palm also has bluetooth.

-- sick of unconnected Palms...


love my Nokia 3650

Maybe It's Just Crappy

DevPOV @ 3/11/2004 12:49:14 PM #
All the Veo cameras are crappy - it's a toy my kid wouldn't want. Maybe it's just that people are beginning to realize it and wouldn't buy it in the first place.

RE: Maybe It's Just Crappy
euan_rideout @ 3/12/2004 4:02:44 AM #
I couldn't agree more!

RE: Maybe It's Just Crappy
LiveFaith @ 3/12/2004 10:02:03 AM #
Man, who would want that big buffalo perched on top of your sleek and pocketable Palm?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Well......

vesther @ 3/13/2004 9:58:10 PM #
I wouldn't wind up buying one anyway because I can actually get better quality with either a stand-alone Camcorder and/or Digital Camera anyway.

But I can get decent quality with my Kodak EasyShare 5.0 Megapixel Digital Camera/MPEG Camcorder Combo anyway...

A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.

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