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Comments on: palmOne Tungsten C Price Reduction

palmOne has lowered the suggested retail price of the Tungsten C handheld by $100. In addition the palmOne online store is offering a special on the Tungsten E handheld this weekend.
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TC upgrade?

gfunkmagic @ 4/2/2004 6:39:24 PM #
Hmmm... could the new $299 USD P80722US model be a new wifi enabled handheld? It seem most people think it will be a new Z72/82 though...

I support http://Tapland.com/

--------------------
GNM

RE: TC upgrade?
chinchorrero @ 4/2/2004 6:52:12 PM #
I can hardly wait.
Tick-tock, Tick-tock, Tick-tock.
Cheers.

"Life is Too Short"
Tungsten T3-Sony ericsson T610,HBH-60,SanDisk 256Mb Sd Card
RE: TC upgrade?
Foo Fighter @ 4/2/2004 7:32:24 PM #
I hope so. I've never much cared for the T|C design. Alwasys seemed rather clunky. Hopefully PalmOne has designed something more elegant.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, Digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, Pocketfactory.com
RE: TC upgrade?
Sweetlu @ 4/2/2004 11:12:50 PM #
Foo Fighter,

How about a T|C2 that uses the form factor of the Treo 600 but has no antenna or phone capabilities. Give it a 320 x 320 screen and WF.

___________________________________
Casio B.O.S.S --> M100 --> Vx --> M505 --> T3 -->?

Yankees, Steinbrenner,...... I will never turn to the dark side.

RE: TC upgrade?
vesther @ 4/4/2004 11:06:24 AM #
Sweetlu

That would be a great idea.

Following your instincts, I have created an imaginary drawn blueprint of the PalmOne Tungsten C2. If you want to check out the blueprint for yourself, let me know and I'll e-mail it to you.

A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.

RE: TC upgrade?
TTrules @ 4/4/2004 9:29:46 PM #
Even now, at $400, I think the TC is over-priced. I would much rather have the T3, even though it lacks wifi.

One Palm to rule them all!

$399 Doorstop

Gekko @ 4/2/2004 7:08:12 PM #
Maybe Palm can bury the leftovers in the middle of the New Mexico Desert.



RE: $399 Doorstop
RhinoSteve @ 4/3/2004 7:34:41 PM #
My guess is the Neveda dessert.

TC

tritan @ 4/2/2004 9:44:11 PM #
I sure hope its a replacement TC also. They need a strong wifi unit that isn't fragile.

May the Palm os be with you

So new models announcement soon?

Konstantin @ 4/2/2004 11:37:44 PM #
"If you purchase a TE before the end of Sunday 12pm EST, you get a free 128MB SD card after a $30 rebate. The store also offers free shipping on all new handheld orders. "

What happens on Monday the 13th ?
When do you think Pa1m0ne will announce the newcomers, place your bets.


RE: So new models announcement soon?
MaurOS X @ 4/3/2004 12:53:29 AM #
Hummm...

I'm IT journalist and I will have an interview next Tuesday here in Bogotá with a Palm executive, and she will talk me about a new Palm...

But I will have to sign a "silence agreement"... :-(

Saludos desde Colombia,

______
MaurOS X
www.InfoTech-Colombia.com

RE: So new models announcement soon?
LiveFaith @ 4/3/2004 9:08:27 PM #
Oh Bogota ... how things are turning around there. Even Palm insiders hanging out there.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
Palm cartel kills Chatty Columbian ... ?
;-( @ 4/4/2004 1:34:22 PM #
I will have an interview next Tuesday here in Bogotá with a Palm executive, and she will talk me about a new Palm...

But I will have to sign a "silence agreement"... :-(


Escobar lives!


It's massive. Massive.

Tungsten E

beneden @ 4/3/2004 3:17:39 AM #
I can't wait for TE2.. but, frankly, I'm not impressed with the direction of the technological advances palm is making. What do I care for video/MP3 playback, etc.. when I have to keep working with stone-age PIM functionality? A PDA for me is first a PIM.. and here IMO Palm is severely lacking compared to PPC. I'm surprised this isn't more of an issue on these forums.

What I need is seamless, complete synchronization with my desktop PIM (Entourage OSX at the moment.) Technologically, it's no problem at all.

Best,

Ben

http://www.beneden.com/wedding/">London, UK wedding photographer

RE: Tungsten E
bcombee @ 4/3/2004 3:40:07 AM #
PalmOne made significant advances in their PIM applications on the Tungsten T3 and Tungsten E -- if those changes aren't enough, there are plenty of third-party PIM apps that can be installed for additional functionality. What else are you looking for?

--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog
RE: Tungsten E
jackpipe @ 4/3/2004 8:39:19 AM #
So they now have a glut of E's ?? For months you couldn't get them anywhere.
Didn't what's-her-face in charge of inventory screw it all up in Palm's first year too - has she been fired yet?

RE: Tungsten E
I.M Anonymous @ 4/3/2004 1:12:12 PM #
It's not that there is a glut of Es, but that everyone else is selling them for $170. Since they are the official PalmOne store, they have to sell them for the MSRP of $200, and rely on such gimmicks to get business.

RE: Tungsten E
alexp @ 4/3/2004 11:56:31 PM #
Wow...I'd have to suggest you're a minority of one if you honestly think Palm's PIM is "stone-age" compared to PPC. Even PPC afficionados on other boards have conceded that PalmOS offers better PIM functionality over the years. Their argument has always been that Palm has better PIM functions, but PPC is adequate in that arena with stronger multimedia and gaming.

The only basis I could see for your claim is PPC's advantage in terms of the amount of information you can enter in Contacts. That would ignore quality issues on actually viewing Contacts information, though. As for Calendar, Tasks, and Notes, I find it hard to believe anyone would characterize PPC as the clearly superior choice.

Palm PIM apps
beneden @ 4/4/2004 7:10:21 AM #
bcombee, alexp:

I'm not a PPC afficionado, but, just off my head:

How about support for unlimited _and_ multiple (or any in case of datebook) categories?

Repeating tasks / appointments (That DO fully synchronize with one's desktop application.)?

No (reasonable) limits to note size (32kb is NOT enough)?

I understand that third-party apps can provide this functionality - it's a no-brainer anyway - but those solutions won't sync with my desktop. So how useful is that?

(If it makes any difference, my desktop is Mac OSX)

PPC has third party apps available as well - and those HAVE all the additional sync data available, unlike dBk5, etc.

Yes, dBk5 has great functionality - if you use your palm as a standalone device.

Real innovation I'd appreciate would be a kind of super-notes - a fully sync-able wiki-like information storage/retrieval system. That would require off-line web browsing. A file system. Once you get here, you realize how anachronistic Palm's OS is.

Once again, I don't like PPC. But I do like (the concept of) the Zaurus. Unfortunately it's PIM/synchronization support is even worse than Palm's.

Comments/solutions?

Ben


Documentary Photography: http://www.beneden.com

Wedding Photography: http://www.beneden.com/wedding/

RE: Tungsten E
tl47 @ 4/4/2004 9:04:39 AM #
Gee, I just read most of the latest PPC model still cannot handle alarms properly (device doesn't wake up to sound alarm). Hmm... I think that's a bit more important than unlimited this or that, right?

Yeh, syncing is a little lacking on the MacOS X I think. Oh well, I don't use it so cannot help you. Have you checked out the other competitors of DateBk5 though? I thought Mac has made something for their iCal and stuff too?

RE: Tungsten E
beneden @ 4/4/2004 10:15:47 AM #
tl47:

Alarms.. I never use them. (I think they don't sync in Palm Desktop either, btw.. and can't set an alarm to a task.. add this to my list of gripes.)

As to synchronization - is there a third-party PIM program that seamlessly syncs with MS Outlook? (And supports all the missing features that I've enumerated previously.)

Ben

Documentary Photography: http://www.beneden.com
Wedding Photography: http://www.beneden.com/wedding/

RE: Tungsten E
svrontis @ 4/4/2004 9:27:34 PM #
bcombee,

I'm with you - the PIM apps are pretty much fine as they are. The only improvements I would ask for are:-

1. Please, please, please bring back the "show only due" function for Tasks.

2. It would be nice if Tasks could be sorted manually (ie drag and drop, just like in the Memos list).

As for synching to MS Outlook, I just don't get this at all. I have Outlook at the office and at home, and I only ever use it for email. Can't see the point of fussy around with it for PIM functions, since I have such a great system in the Palm of my hand!.

Just my 2c.

Cheers.

RE: Tungsten E
beneden @ 4/5/2004 2:47:09 PM #
>As for synching to MS Outlook, I just don't get this at all. I have >Outlook at the office and at home, and I only ever use it for email. >Can't see the point of fussy around with it for PIM functions, since I >have such a great system in the Palm of my hand!.

Well, lots of people around me carry Palms for what they call "data" only - addressbook is all they use. They prefer a paper diary.

Myself, I appreciate/try to put to use all the sophistication of Outlook/Entourage. (I'm not speaking about the user interface, just features.)

Additional "can't believe it's not included yet" feature requests for Palm:

Color coding for categories. What a difference does this make in readibility.

I did mention multiple categories already..

Ben

Documentary Photography: http://www.beneden.com
Wedding Photography: http://www.beneden.com/wedding/

I really don't dig the C's right now....

vesther @ 4/3/2004 3:15:28 PM #
It really looks like the Tungsten W as I speak...and personally, there's a lot of ergonomical flaws that I have pointed out such as plastic finish, and all the unnecessary heft (not to mention a lot of digitizer problems that I had to dwell with during my C days)...PalmOne needs to make the Tungsten C2 more attractive with a stereo jack, a different ARM Processor that uses less battery even in Wi-Fi, plus a 6-button/9-Way D-Pad layout similar to the Tungsten T3. I might have a drawing of it once I figure out how the Tungsten C2 should look like in the future. Oh, make the Tungsten C2 more durable as well.

A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.
RE: I really don't dig the C's right now....
tl47 @ 4/4/2004 9:10:45 AM #
I dunno about you, but I'm quite certain the C has the longest battery life for any PDA with an active Wifi. I've not found any PPC that last over 5 hours with Wifi yet. Make that 2 hours... So in terms of battery, I think they are okay. Unless, you are suggesting they slim down the device with a smaller battery, and so use a less power-hungry processor. Too bad, Intel has a monopoly on processors virtually. If you use something else, people will complain (why not xscale with 400MHz? etc.)

Speaking of Intel
vesther @ 4/4/2004 10:44:00 AM #
Dunno why Business Users want to have Intel on their PDAs....IMO Intel monopolizing the Processor market is just totally suspect--this harms consumers more than anything else. I still remember the good old days when certain Palm OS 5 machines from PalmOne was powered by Texas Instruments OMAP Processors, but now, they are starting to use the Intel Processors....the 400MHz Processors tend to consume a lot of battery if you had to ask me--I like the performance of the Intel X-Scale PXA255/PXA261, but don't like the power management features of the Intel Processors, since higher megahertz can consume more battery in the long run.

IMO Intel should come up with a new processor that has the following features for future Palm-Powered PDAs if they are to stay up-to-date:

* RealSpeed Architecture--should variate between 16MHz to 533MHz depending on demand, increments of 16.6MHz (Bus Speed 133MHz, Minimum Speed 16.6MHz (133*.125), Maximum Speed 533MHz (133*4=533))
* Increase the efficiency per Clock Cycle--make it 128 "Steps" per Clock Cycle for faster performance, allowing faster execution of instructions at lower speeds, thus improving battery life
* 64-Bit or 128-Bit Data Pipeline for faster, more free-flowing data transfers per clock cycle.
* Hyper-Threading Technology--Two Virtual Processors in one
* 10:1 Battery Ratio Characteristics

I'm trying to point out some ideal pointers for Intel to use on their next processor to increase the "steps" per clock cycle and to improve battery life for their future PDA Processor projects.

Also, give Tungsten C a removeable battery as well. The only thing I hate about my PDA right now is that I can't replace the batteries right now.

Maybe Intel can come up with a battery-friendly "PDA Engine" in future PDA Processing projects, but that's just me.

A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.

QC problems

commando @ 4/3/2004 11:27:51 PM #
I loved my Tungsten C, but after 10 months and 5 replacement units, I still didn't have a fully working model, so I returned it for a refund. I look forward to Palm releasing an OS6 model with a keyboard, hopefully without the quality control problems that have plagued them in recent years.

RE: QC problems
Luisito @ 4/4/2004 1:18:18 AM #
I have being using the tungsten C for three months and for me it is the best palm device.

I knew the design flaws before buying it, like the lack of stereo sound.

But still its a great machine. Battery life is ok, the speed is incredible, I like the keyboard a lot.

I think it's unique. I recognize that I would prefer a metal case instead of platic but I 've heard that because of the internal antenna a "radio transparent" material was needed.

The wifi is a must have feature for me. And the keyboard is very important to type documents, emails.

I reallly think everybody should try the t/c keyboard. I was very fast with grafiti but the keyboard rocks.

I know a lot of happy owners of the T/C.
I prefer th T/C than the Sony WiFi models (too big, or to expensive or clamshells or no keyboard) and in the palm one world it is the only choise.

I think that after a year in the market a price drop was something to expect from palm one.

I hope that PalmOne launched an updated wifi model but please dont forget this is an excellent machine.

By the way, I'm posting this message wirlesly from my bedroom via Wifi using Web Pro in my T/C

Luis

RE: QC problems
vesther @ 4/4/2004 10:58:41 AM #
Luis

To alleviate the QC Problems plaguing with PalmOne models since the Tungsten T and original Zire came out, I would definitely force PalmOne to stop making handhelds in China and start making handhelds in the USA once again.

Second of all, I would make the Tungsten C more durable and less "toyish" by giving the Tungsten C a more attractive design, ala PalmOne Treo 600.

Third, I would think about revamping the Tungsten C from scratch so that it would sport Dual SD/MMC/SDIO Card Slots, optional 1.3MP Camera, and Dual-Wireless, a marriage between Wi-Fi and Bluetooth.

Finally, I would implement a removeable battery for the Tungsten C Series plus new code that gives the Tungsten C a longer battery life, thus keeping the size of the Tungsten C smaller and making it lighter.

I personally think that the Tungsten C should spot at least a 480x480 screen.

If you want, then I can show you some drawn schematics that I came up with while foresighting a Tungsten C2.

A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.

Made in China = HORRIBLE Quality Control
;-( @ 4/4/2004 2:03:14 PM #
I look forward to Palm releasing an OS6 model with a keyboard, hopefully without the quality control problems that have plagued them in recent years.

Don't expect Palm to EVER release another well made, reliable model again - almost all of their products are now manufactured in China. In trying to cut costs to the bare minimum, these manufacturers sacrifice build quality. It's sad to see what we've begun to accept in terms of quality in this country. Look around your local Wal-Mart, Target etc. and check the labels. You'll be shocked to see how many products are now manufactured in China. And most of them are poorly constructed. Consumers need to demand better. Between IT outsourcing to India and Chinese manufacturing, the American high tech industry is rapidly going down the toilet. In a couple years from now people are going to wake up and start crying about how all the jobs are now overseas.

The solution is simple: support manufacturers that produce goods locally (even if they're a little more expensive).

Keep buying the garbage pumped out in foreign sweatshops (how much do Chinese and Indian workers get, but the way?) and the next job lost might be yours.

One other thing: unions need to wise up and start working with companies if the want to keep jobs from being sent abroad. The traditional confrontational union c.r.a.p. just does't cut it in the global economy.


It's massive. Massive.

RE: QC problems
SARGE @ 4/4/2004 9:30:09 PM #
Let's just send Palm and china to hell, I guess they don't get what prestige and quality means so why not move to Tapwave, a simple, functional and RELIABLE multiporpouse pda that could easily replace any Palm on the market.

RE: QC problems
SARGE @ 4/4/2004 9:39:06 PM #
What ;-( said is true and what pisses me off the most is those silly countries' economies thrieve at the expense of our satisfaction and sometimes needs; taxes applied to products manufactured in foreign countries should be raised in order to help local manufacturers develop high quality stuff worlwide accepted.

RE: QC problems
tfftruoa @ 4/5/2004 12:17:14 AM #
Oh god. Not another "Keep jobs here! Tax he foriegners!" thing. People who complain about outsourcing annoy me. "Take an economics class already!" is my first reaction. It's a basic Smithian principle. A nation is better off specializing in what it does best than it is trying to protect doomed industries form foriegn compititon. The US is not a good place to make things anymore. Out economy is post industrial, meaning that we sell services, not goods.

I'm not sure about you, but I would rather live in the US than China or India. There may be manufacturing jobs, but you get paid next to nothing, and what money you do have is worth less than it would be here. Talk about thriving economies. The average American make around 35,000 a year, while the average Chinese makes closer to 4,000. Obviously America is better off than China, and while China's economy is growing faster than the American, a vast majority of the profits made in China are heading right back to the US and into the pockets of the American shareholders of American Corporations.

In fact, if palms were made in the good old US of A, prices would not only be higher, but quality would be
lower! In the USA, labor has a lot of power. When the PalmOne union decides it wants a 40% increase in wages or an extension of health benifits to family members as distant as third cousins twice removed or that they want 8 weeks a year of vacation, something is going to have to go to meet these demands while keeping the price of a Zire 21 less than $300. That something is almost going to be marketing and quality control.

Whenever the economy changes, society changes to match it. America's oil industry has been in decline for years, but guess what? People arn't complaining about oil jobs being sent over seas. If you gave most people a choice between America oil only and paying $6.50 at the pump, or using foriegn oil and paying $2.10, most people will take the foriegn oil.

Manufacturing has been in decline for years, too. People don't like it, but it will all but vanish from the US economy, and when it does, we will still have one of the lowest unemployment rates of any first world nation. Biotech and Nanotech and medical are all growing in the US and jobs in these industries will replace whatever we loose to China.

Just my rant of the moment. I am fairly confidant most of you will disagree, but I needed to say it anyways.

The Federation for the Responsible Use of Acronyms

Why we need to stop buying "Made in China"
;-( @ 4/11/2004 1:58:36 PM #
Oh god. Not another "Keep jobs here! Tax he foriegners!" thing. People who complain about outsourcing annoy me. "Take an economics class already!" is my first reaction. It's a basic Smithian principle. A nation is better off specializing in what it does best than it is trying to protect doomed industries form foriegn compititon. The US is not a good place to make things anymore. Out economy is post industrial, meaning that we sell services, not goods.

Nonsense. There isn't a country in the world that doesn't do "unfair" things to protect their domestic industries. The U.S. is still very much a manufacturing-oriented society (the automobile industry alone accounts for a huge number of jobs and $). But no one can compete with countries that employ what is almost slave labor. Every outsourced job and every loss of domestic manufacturing hurts Americans in the long run.


In fact, if palms were made in the good old US of A, prices would not only be higher, but quality would be lower! In the USA, labor has a lot of power. When the PalmOne union decides it wants a 40% increase in wages or an extension of health benifits to family members as distant as third cousins twice removed or that they want 8 weeks a year of vacation, something is going to have to go to meet these demands while keeping the price of a Zire 21 less than $300. That something is almost going to be marketing and quality control.

Manufacturing has been in decline for years, too. People don't like it, but it will all but vanish from the US economy, and when it does, we will still have one of the lowest unemployment rates of any first world nation. Biotech and Nanotech and medical are all growing in the US and jobs in these industries will replace whatever we loose to China.

Yes American-made goods cost more than those made with slave labor. (Economics 101.) Yes, unions are partly to blame for the loss of jobs to overseas. But your comment about American manufacturing quality is incorrect. Palm hasn't made a quality device since they moved production from the U.S. to Mexico, Hungary and China. Compare the feel of an old American-made Palm (or any CLIE) to the stuff Palm sells now and you'll see that Palm is in trouble. Funny how no one seems to recognize quality as being a major issue that is hurting Palm. Lack of quality control (and greed) killed Ford, GM and Chrysler. I thought most American companied had learned their lesson by now.

By the way, biotech and other "new" industries are already being "outsourced".

In a few years people will be wondering why the economy has tanked and the unemployment rate is so high. But it will be too late to get the jobs back once the factories have been closed.



It's massive. Massive.

RE: QC problems
abosco @ 4/11/2004 3:35:10 PM #
It's called protective tariffs, and expect them to increase in the future. This sort of tax has saved America more times than I can count in its two hundred years. It was expecially predominant before the turn of the 20th century.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: QC problems
Winter_ @ 4/11/2004 9:34:48 PM #
...Ugly Face gets boring, doesn't he? Always so smart-assy know-it-all, always so bully wanna-be... :P
Protectionist Xenophobic BS
FatBoyRoy @ 4/12/2004 4:28:50 PM #
You are confused, ugly face guy. You seem to have your Anti-globalization, isolationalist, anti-Nafta, stop-the-forigners doctirines all mixed up.

"But no one can compete with countries that employ what is almost slave labor. Every outsourced job and every loss of domestic manufacturing hurts Americans in the long run."

While your use of the term "slave laborors" belies a touching concern for the Chinese working man, the logic is convoluted. It imples the poorly concieved mantra of "save the third world sweatchop workers" that negelcts that by closing their "sweatshops" you force the same workers out of higher paying jobs they have willfully taken. But somehow I doubt the state of Chinese labor is your true concern.

Which brings us to your next argument, that the shift in manufacturing overseas will permanently hurt the American economy. You neglect that this argument has been made more than once in the past, and has been proven wrong in just as many times. With 1970s Japan in its manufacturing heyday, protectonist xenophobes argued that without protective tariffs and a legal curtailment of imported manufactred goods, the American economy would be unable to compete. But logical minds prevailed, the free market survived, and America grew strong through re-evaulation of business practices, re-engineering of business models and work flows, and shifts in economic focal points.

"Yes American-made goods cost more than those made with slave labor. (Economics 101.) Yes, unions are partly to blame for the loss of jobs to overseas. But your comment about American manufacturing quality is incorrect. Palm hasn't made a quality device since they moved production from the U.S. to Mexico, Hungary and China. Compare the feel of an old American-made Palm (or any CLIE) to the stuff Palm sells now and you'll see that Palm is in trouble. Funny how no one seems to recognize quality as being a major issue that is hurting Palm. Lack of quality control (and greed) killed Ford, GM and Chrysler. I thought most American companied had learned their lesson by now. "

You don't really make sense here. The original argument is that American manuafacturing at a competitive price is bound to suffer quality control problems because the cost per worker is higher in the US (in part due to labor unions.) Your response is that you have felt old palms and new palms and know Mexicans dont make them right. I dont have the luxury of being a quality feeler, but your next point complety flies in the face of everything you are saying.

Lack of quality control at the US auto manufacturers almost killed the big 3 in the 80s... So what were you saying about American manufacturing and quality control? Foreign competition and the black hole of qc in the 80s actually saved American manufacturing. Eventually the good will of people "buying american" was unable to offset the losses incurred by the crap American factories were putting out, and management was shaken up and thrust into the modern production world.

Those same Japanese companies that americans scoffed at for making poor quality goods in the 60s and 70s became the template for efficiency and quality control in the rebuilding the US manufacturing industry in the late 80s and 90s.

"By the way, biotech and other "new" industries are already being "outsourced". "

What are you talking about. Absurd.


"In a few years people will be wondering why the economy has tanked and the unemployment rate is so high. But it will be too late to get the jobs back once the factories have been closed.

It's massive. Massive."

So really the only basis for your "massive" argument is that incapable mexicans and chinamen are stealing our jobs and forcing us to buy poor quality goods, which you can prove by feeling old palms.

Massive indeed...

RE: QC problems
;-( @ 4/13/2004 1:30:07 AM #
You are confused, ugly face guy. You seem to have your Anti-globalization, isolationalist, anti-Nafta, stop-the-forigners doctirines all mixed up.

Unfortunately, Obese Boy, the only one confused appears to be you.

While your use of the term "slave laborors" belies a touching concern for the Chinese working man, the logic is convoluted. It imples the poorly concieved mantra of "save the third world sweatchop workers" that negelcts that by closing their "sweatshops" you force the same workers out of higher paying jobs they have willfully taken. But somehow I doubt the state of Chinese labor is your true concern.

I have a touching concern for all people, Roy - even you. But that has little to do with how foreign "slave" labor steals food from the mouths of people right here at home. Your arguments in favor of sweatshops are quite specious and have been used for years to justify the oppression of individuals in sweatshops, prostitution, pornography, etc.

Which brings us to your next argument, that the shift in manufacturing overseas will permanently hurt the American economy. You neglect that this argument has been made more than once in the past, and has been proven wrong in just as many times. With 1970s Japan in its manufacturing heyday, protectonist xenophobes argued that without protective tariffs and a legal curtailment of imported manufactred goods, the American economy would be unable to compete. But logical minds prevailed, the free market survived, and America grew strong through re-evaulation of business practices, re-engineering of business models and work flows, and shifts in economic focal points.

If your argument was correct the domestic automobile industry should be thriving. It isn't. Want to buy an American-made TV? CD player? Printer? Computer? PDA? Good luck. People like you are naive to believe that lost manufacturing jobs can magically be replaced by new fields. Most of the new industries (biotech, IT, etc.) require highly educated workers. Last time I checked, most factory jobs didn't require a PhD. Factor in the influence of robots in the remaining factories (fewer people needed), America's declining public education system, rapid outsourcing of relatively new industries (just how long it take for a fledgling industry like Information Technology to become outsourced?) and you have a recipe for disaster. If Michael Dell can save an extra 40% by building his computers in China and sending tech support to India do you think he will keep even a single job in the U.S. unless legislation is enacted to stop the hemorrhage of American jobs? Ask all of those out if work because of outsourcing if they're happy now that Raj in New Delhi is making more money than before.

You don't really make sense here. The original argument is that American manuafacturing at a competitive price is bound to suffer quality control problems because the cost per worker is higher in the US (in part due to labor unions.) Your response is that you have felt old palms and new palms and know Mexicans dont make them right. I dont have the luxury of being a quality feeler, but your next point complety flies in the face of everything you are saying.

If manufacturing in the U.S. makes for lower quality, why is it that Palm's quality declined after manufacturing was sent abroad?

Lack of quality control at the US auto manufacturers almost killed the big 3 in the 80s... So what were you saying about American manufacturing and quality control? Foreign competition and the black hole of qc in the 80s actually saved American manufacturing. Eventually the good will of people "buying american" was unable to offset the losses incurred by the crap American factories were putting out, and management was shaken up and thrust into the modern production world.

The blunders GM, Ford and Chrysler made (and to some degree are STILL making) were a wake up call to American industry. Where the desire is there, Americans can make products as good as - and sometimes better than - anything coming out of Japan. But right now the pattern seems to be American innovation/invention followed by foreign copying/refinement/price cutting. What happens if Americans stop coming up with the initial innovations? With no manufacturing industry to supply the backbone of the economy, unemployment figures will skyrocket.

Those same Japanese companies that americans scoffed at for making poor quality goods in the 60s and 70s became the template for efficiency and quality control in the rebuilding the US manufacturing industry in the late 80s and 90s.

Yes, and the same is now happening in Korea. Hyundai and Samsung are doing the things that more American companies need to do. But Hyundai and Samsung also have the benefit of protection and support from their government. Ask GM, Ford and Chrysler how they feel about governmental protection now that the Japanese automakers have finally taken their gloves off and started selling full sized trucks. Without protection, the domestic car industry will be on the ropes within ten years. The Japanese strategy of undercutting on price initially, followed by superior quality and then entrenching production in North America (to avoid trade barriers) has resulted in the domestics giving up on competing with them in small cars and family cars. Pretty soon the imports will OWN the full sized truck, sport ute, luxury and minivan categories too.

What are you talking about. Absurd.

You need to educate yourself. Edumacate yourself.

So really the only basis for your "massive" argument is that incapable mexicans and chinamen are stealing our jobs and forcing us to buy poor quality goods, which you can prove by feeling old palms.

"Chinamen"? Spoken like a true racist hick. In case you didn't realize, individuals from Mexico and China are just like everyone else in the world and can achieve the same results given adequate resources. Mexico and China-made Palms are of low quality because they have been purposely built to that level/price point. Palm could have specified higher quality construction, but they didn't.

Have a seat, Obese Boy.


It's massive. Massive.

RE: QC problems
;-( @ 4/13/2004 1:30:07 AM #
You are confused, ugly face guy. You seem to have your Anti-globalization, isolationalist, anti-Nafta, stop-the-forigners doctirines all mixed up.

Unfortunately, Obese Boy, the only one confused appears to be you.

While your use of the term "slave laborors" belies a touching concern for the Chinese working man, the logic is convoluted. It imples the poorly concieved mantra of "save the third world sweatchop workers" that negelcts that by closing their "sweatshops" you force the same workers out of higher paying jobs they have willfully taken. But somehow I doubt the state of Chinese labor is your true concern.

I have a touching concern for all people, Roy - even you. But that has little to do with how foreign "slave" labor steals food from the mouths of people right here at home. Your arguments in favor of sweatshops are quite specious and have been used for years to justify the oppression of individuals in sweatshops, prostitution, pornography, etc.

Which brings us to your next argument, that the shift in manufacturing overseas will permanently hurt the American economy. You neglect that this argument has been made more than once in the past, and has been proven wrong in just as many times. With 1970s Japan in its manufacturing heyday, protectonist xenophobes argued that without protective tariffs and a legal curtailment of imported manufactred goods, the American economy would be unable to compete. But logical minds prevailed, the free market survived, and America grew strong through re-evaulation of business practices, re-engineering of business models and work flows, and shifts in economic focal points.

If your argument was correct the domestic automobile industry should be thriving. It isn't. Want to buy an American-made TV? CD player? Printer? Computer? PDA? Good luck. People like you are naive to believe that lost manufacturing jobs can magically be replaced by new fields. Most of the new industries (biotech, IT, etc.) require highly educated workers. Last time I checked, most factory jobs didn't require a PhD. Factor in the influence of robots in the remaining factories (fewer people needed), America's declining public education system, rapid outsourcing of relatively new industries (just how long it take for a fledgling industry like Information Technology to become outsourced?) and you have a recipe for disaster. If Michael Dell can save an extra 40% by building his computers in China and sending tech support to India do you think he will keep even a single job in the U.S. unless legislation is enacted to stop the hemorrhage of American jobs? Ask all of those out if work because of outsourcing if they're happy now that Raj in New Delhi is making more money than before.

You don't really make sense here. The original argument is that American manuafacturing at a competitive price is bound to suffer quality control problems because the cost per worker is higher in the US (in part due to labor unions.) Your response is that you have felt old palms and new palms and know Mexicans dont make them right. I dont have the luxury of being a quality feeler, but your next point complety flies in the face of everything you are saying.

If manufacturing in the U.S. makes for lower quality, why is it that Palm's quality declined after manufacturing was sent abroad?

Lack of quality control at the US auto manufacturers almost killed the big 3 in the 80s... So what were you saying about American manufacturing and quality control? Foreign competition and the black hole of qc in the 80s actually saved American manufacturing. Eventually the good will of people "buying american" was unable to offset the losses incurred by the crap American factories were putting out, and management was shaken up and thrust into the modern production world.

The blunders GM, Ford and Chrysler made (and to some degree are STILL making) were a wake up call to American industry. Where the desire is there, Americans can make products as good as - and sometimes better than - anything coming out of Japan. But right now the pattern seems to be American innovation/invention followed by foreign copying/refinement/price cutting. What happens if Americans stop coming up with the initial innovations? With no manufacturing industry to supply the backbone of the economy, unemployment figures will skyrocket.

Those same Japanese companies that americans scoffed at for making poor quality goods in the 60s and 70s became the template for efficiency and quality control in the rebuilding the US manufacturing industry in the late 80s and 90s.

Yes, and the same is now happening in Korea. Hyundai and Samsung are doing the things that more American companies need to do. But Hyundai and Samsung also have the benefit of protection and support from their government. Ask GM, Ford and Chrysler how they feel about governmental protection now that the Japanese automakers have finally taken their gloves off and started selling full sized trucks. Without protection, the domestic car industry will be on the ropes within ten years. The Japanese strategy of undercutting on price initially, followed by superior quality and then entrenching production in North America (to avoid trade barriers) has resulted in the domestics giving up on competing with them in small cars and family cars. Pretty soon the imports will OWN the full sized truck, sport ute, luxury and minivan categories too.

What are you talking about. Absurd.

You need to educate yourself. Edumacate yourself.

So really the only basis for your "massive" argument is that incapable mexicans and chinamen are stealing our jobs and forcing us to buy poor quality goods, which you can prove by feeling old palms.

"Chinamen"? Spoken like a true racist hick. In case you didn't realize, individuals from Mexico and China are just like everyone else in the world and can achieve the same results given adequate resources. Mexico and China-made Palms are of low quality because they have been purposely built to that level/price point. Palm could have specified higher quality construction, but they didn't.

Have a seat, Obese Boy.


It's massive. Massive.

RE: QC problems
;-) @ 4/13/2004 9:54:19 PM #
FatBoyRoy: Better luck next time.


It's just too big.

Bring back the Palm V/500/515 form factor.

pkuhns @ 4/5/2004 9:33:56 AM #
The best case and case size Palm ever made was the Palm V, and the 515 was even more perfect.

If Palm could shrink the Tungsten C components into the 515 case and keep the metal case you would see every businessperson on Wall Street toting one.

Also, I agree with everything the poster said above. The chinese can build quality into products just like anyone; the difference has to do with MANAGEMENT and DESIGN. Americans (PalmOne) should have designed something that had quality in it; instead they went the cheapo route and made plastic, stupid Tungsten E's. It's not the assembly worker's fault at all; it's his or her manager. Just ask GM/Ford/Chrysler.

Have their cars improved in quality since the early 80's? Did the assembly line worker have much to do with it? Yes, because management made them realize how important quality was. It wasn't until management got off the golf course and back in the boardroom with the designers/subcontractors and told them how it was going to be.

love my Nokia 3650

RE: Bring back the Palm V/500/515 form factor.
T.W.G @ 4/5/2004 11:10:11 AM #
HI,

the m5xx form factor was great. The modern adaption should integrate the realy good 5way pad of the Tungsten T or T2. This was serious quality.
It could be bigger to get a better battery into it.

Quality: Yep, the japanese (Toyota) have high quality and especially all the german cars :-)
- Porsche
- Mercedes
- BMW
- Audi
- Volkswagen

this is simple: Made in Germany ;-)

Greetings from this country

Thomas

T.W.G www.twgmusic.de

Palm Powered Handheld Reviews from T.W.G at: www.pdaforum.de

RE: Bring back the Palm V/500/515 form factor.
svrontis @ 4/5/2004 11:19:02 PM #
I agree. I have a Vx, m500, T2 and TE, and the m500 was (and still is) my all time favourite.

The TE comes a close second, though. If palmOne could make the TE thinner, lighter and with better battery life, I think they would sell a ton of them to the average Joe and Jill. (A matt black shell wouldn't hurt either!) Remember, not everyone is a techie; not everyone needs the power of a T3.

Cheers.

RE: Bring back the Palm V/500/515 form factor.
heavyduty @ 4/6/2004 6:56:49 AM #
** "Quality: Yep, the japanese (Toyota) have high quality and especially all the german cars :-)
- Porsche
- Mercedes
- BMW
- Audi
- Volkswagen" **

1. You got that mixed up: especially the JAPANESE brands have high quality, more so than German cars.

2. Obviously you haven't looked into the fault statistics for different brands; if you had there's no way you would have put in Audi and VW in that list. Quality wise they are, at best, average.

I don't mind a little chauvinism, but not at the expense of facts.

RE: Bring back the Palm V/500/515 form factor.
hkklife @ 4/6/2004 9:46:17 AM #
Well, the German car companies admittedly don't have the greatest reliability for mechanical issues but you cannot fault the quality of their materials & craftsmanship,especially for their interiors.

At the risk of going off-topic, Palm is in the unenviable position of trying not only improve on the aesthetics of their handhelds (let's face it, they haven't releaed anything really stylish since the original T|T?) but on their build quality as well. My old m505 was the only Palm I owned (Pilot 1000 to T3) that never had any problems with any of the hard buttons or had a loose casing. Had it not been for the battery crapping out and part of the digitizer going flaky, I'd still have it around as a backup unit to this day ;-)

Of the 8 Palms I've personally owned & used over since '96, 5 of them were replaced due to digitizer problems, 2 were replaced due to hard buttons breaking/popping out, and the other 2 were replaced because I didn't like 'em/sold 'em.

RE: Bring back the Palm V/500/515 form factor.
Palmary @ 4/7/2004 8:31:12 PM #
HKKLIFE wrote:
"Of the 8 Palms I've personally owned & used over since '96, 5 of them were replaced due to digitizer problems, 2 were replaced due to hard buttons breaking/popping out, and the other 2 were replaced because I didn't like 'em/sold 'em."

...and apparently all nine of them were missing the Calculator application ;-)

Vx->m500->m505->m515->TT->T2->T3/TC

RE: Bring back the Palm V/500/515 form factor.
;-( @ 4/11/2004 2:39:06 PM #
The best case and case size Palm ever made was the Palm V, and the 515 was even more perfect.

If Palm could shrink the Tungsten C components into the 515 case and keep the metal case you would see every businessperson on Wall Street toting one.

Also, I agree with everything the poster said above. The chinese can build quality into products just like anyone; the difference has to do with MANAGEMENT and DESIGN. Americans (PalmOne) should have designed something that had quality in it; instead they went the cheapo route and made plastic, stupid Tungsten E's. It's not the assembly worker's fault at all; it's his or her manager. Just ask GM/Ford/Chrysler.

Have their cars improved in quality since the early 80's? Did the assembly line worker have much to do with it? Yes, because management made them realize how important quality was. It wasn't until management got off the golf course and back in the boardroom with the designers/subcontractors and told them how it was going to be.


The Palm V was an amazing design (which I believe Palm had contracted out from a California? company). But in terms of functionality, the Made in the U.S. TRGpro was the best ever.

Yes, Chinese companies probably can build quality - if they wanted to - but I have yet to see ANYTHING from China that is well constructed. It's all about profits and it appears that Chinese manufacturers build to the lowest level of quality they can get away with. Blame (American) companies that accept this kind of shoddy construction from these contractors.


Quality: Yep, the japanese (Toyota) have high quality and especially all the german cars :-)
- Porsche
- Mercedes
- BMW
- Audi
- Volkswagen

this is simple: Made in Germany ;-)

Get serious. The Japanese car industry makes German cars look like a sad joke.

Porsche? Great handling, ridiculously overpriced, sleazy (Cayenne = Audi Touareg + $20,000...).

Mercedes? About as reliable as a Chrysler product. Oh yeah - they ARE Chrysler.

BMW? Nice handling (3 series), overpriced, styling of Z3 + 7 series + 5 series has been butchered. Or should I say "Bangled"? Average reliability.

Audi? Basically they're tarted-up Volkswagens. Clean styling + the nicest interiors of any manufacturer. But the TT influences are getting old now. And Audi has worse reliability than even the Korean car manufacturers.

Volkswagen? About as reliable as Chrysler was in the 80s.

Japan is where the quality is. Lexus and Acura especially are the new standards for the industry.


It's massive. Massive.

Tungsten C Screen Crack?!

phsv @ 4/5/2004 9:22:48 PM #
Does anybody know if Palm is fixing the screens to this pda? I know that they are fixing them for around $125, but I also read in other forums that Palm had refunded the money for fixing them. I know that some screen crack after getting dropped but most and my screen cracked without any type of abuse.

Could anybody give me a more accurate update on how Palm handled this problem with the Tungsten C?

Thanks.

RE: Tungsten C Screen Crack?!
tfftruoa @ 4/7/2004 11:50:01 PM #
If you bought the extended warentee, yes. You are entitled to one free screen replacement under that. If not, you'd have to pay. If you're still under the 90 day warentee or however long the P1 is, I'm not really sure if they cover scree replacements or not.

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