Comments on: Analysts Cite Slumping Pre Sales

That didn't hurt iPhone.

that also hurt palm because initially the buzz was:
1. that the pre did all these things the iPhone couldn't.

2. The pre was much faster than the iPhone

os 3.x stuck a pin in argument #1

iPhone 3gs decimated argument #2

The only remaining argument - the pre can multitask 3rd party apps. The dearth of said apps weakens that argument.

Allow me to cherry-pick some of the stuff you wrote for debate. (Also, have I mentioned how agonising it is to not be able to try a Pre for myself lately?)

A front-facing QWERTY + touchscreen + hard buttons is a combination that CANNOT be beat for data input and retrieval efficiency.

Completely agreed - and don't forget a D-pad & stylus too. (I remember being flayed for saying that when the iPhone came out...) I think the Eos/Pixie/whatever may actually turn out to be a better phone than the Pre in that respect.

At the same time, though, Palm has been long overdue for a new phone design. The Treo & Centro had been essentially the same device for four years running, and without any new PDAs to vary their lineup it made the whole company look stagnant. Meanwhile, the sheer weight of iPhone hype had created a brand-new touchscreen design paradigm - the trusty stylus was no longer welcome in the mass market.

While its utility is compromised by it, the Pre's curvy slide-out design is a very welcome breath of fresh air for Palm. Try as I might, I cannot imagine a device that looked like a Treo getting the same reaction from the crowd at CES. And they have tried to bring some of their old mojo into the new generation. The gesture area, for instance - that's a great idea. Your greasy mitts don't always need to be swiping over what you're looking at. Or the wave launcher.

Basically, as much as I love the classic hardware design, it had to go to sleep for awhile. Evidence? Check out the Treo Pro - arguably the sexiest candybar Palm ever made. Seems to have been a bit of a flop (although we can chalk a lot of that up to WinMob).

In additioin, the flexibility, huge number of 3rd party apps is nowhere to be seen for WebOS nor and it's unlikely to ever appear.

I completely disagree here, and I think it's far, far too early to be making such calls in any case. I base this not on my own feelings but on the opinions of others who've worked with webOS and Mojo. That Infoworld review of the SDK sums it up perfectly: yes, it's still an immature platform, but the potential it promises is huge and there's no reason to believe Palm won't keep improving it - they're fighting for survival.

And then there's webos-internals.org, which already offers so many excellent little hacks and mods that are letting users customise the OS how they see fit. heck, you can run proper Linux software on it! It's the geek user's wet dream!

Numerous hardware shortcomings: Too little RAM, no memory expansion, weak battery capacity, fragile/spotty build quality, no soft-touch exterior coating, etc

I'll agree with you on memory expansion and the weak battery. Build quality, well, I'll reserve judgement till I have my own. Soft-touch coating is overrated, IMO - makes it harder to slip in and out of a pocket.

But coming from a GSM Treo/Centro, there's also a number of pluses: 3G, GPS, Wi-Fi, bigger screen, superior processor.

3. Palm's half-baked iTunes "solution". They should have either worked out a PROPER solution with Apple prior to launch or just left it at USB drag'n drop and been done with it.

Oh please. Apple have zero interest in letting anyone else into their exclusive party. At the same time, the iTunes ecosystem is simply too massive for any sane company to ignore. Palm's solution, far from being half-baked, is the best one available. If a user want to use iTunes to manage their media (God help them), they can use iTunes - not PalmTunesSync or whatever other third-party middleman.

It amazes me that you'd really be against this, Kris. While it may cause user uncertainty in the short-term with the a constant back-and-forth update war, in the long view it's a step forward for interoperability. Depending on how all of this plays out with the USB forum, it may even encourage other manufacturers to pull the same trick. The precedent set and wider compatibility that would result can only be of benefit to all of us, whether or not we use iTunes.

The only loser is Apple, for whom I find it difficult to weep when they are rolling around naked in a pile of money. (And even then, it's not much of a loss, because they'll have more customers shopping in their online store and using their software and more opportunities to convince people to buy Apple hardware.)
Tim
Apologies in advance for all emoticons, LOLs, ROFLs, and any other form of depressingly annoying Internet shorthand that appears in my posts.
Treo 270 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680 -> Centro

I agree with basically everything you said. In fact, I'd say that Palm screwed themselves again by trying to "me too" the iPhone. The iPhone has some nice features, BUT - its popularity is based upon the Apple Cult. No matter how much Palm chases Apple - they're still going to come off as a pale wannabe. The Pre just looks and functions like a knockoff iPhone with a keyboard and a load of lag. No expandable card, cheese-cutter corners, gummy-bear keys, yuck! The Pre actually makes the lousy Blackberry attractive - at least BB has some great enterprise class thinking behind the OS, even though the hardware sucks beyond logic.

Palm went further in committing hari-kari by actively screwing the customers that LIKED the PalmOS they've invested in since as early as 1996. Say what you want about the lag, the lack of "multitasking" and pretty graphics and fonts, but my damn Treo 755 can run circles around the iPhone for functionality, speed of entry, and comfort in the hand. Since the Pre is nearly an iPhone clone - then it is reasonable to expect that the 755 exceeds it, also. Tethering? Expandable memory and local backup and desktop sync? NOT.

Palm could have slapped a 256MB chip into their Treo line, updated the awful ROM image with current versions of DTG and Googlemaps (and add the location API), and I'd have bought one with another 2-year contract. I don't want a gummy Centro, and I certainly don't want a "cloud-only" POS unexpandable stylus-free toy with tiny, sticky keys, and I know I'm not alone. And Wincemob ain't a panacea, either.
Treo 755p FTW!!! (sorry, Preh).

You didn't read it because you're an ass?

That's a real shocker!!!

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-18438_7-10300823-82.html
Pat Horne

bosco:
Why would a company like Dell or Acer spend billions buying Palm when they can hop on the Android bandwagon for zero licensing expense?

IMO, Android is destined to become the Windows Mobile of the future - running on a million different phones, but only a few of them offering the tight integration of hardware and software that can make a device really special.

Mind you, that's not to say that I think a Palm acquisition is likely.

I understand that you think I'm underestimating Android, but I really think the tech community is overestimating it because of it's infatuation with opensource. In reality, the average consumer doesn't care.

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3

"In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone." - Bill Gates

abosco wrote:
Care to comment on the fact that all of those companies ran their hardware on Windows Mobile for the last several years, and they all got nowhere? Why would this situation be much different?

Sure.

WM sucks...

...and Android doesn't.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

http://gizmodo.com/5337228/dells-android-smartphone-new-photos-and-specs

The simple fact is that people really like tight integration. Android propagates the fragmented platform ideology that has not proved itself successful thus far. And the only response I really hear from you sounds like, "It's open source, lol."

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

abosco wrote:
Really? HTC has been making Windows Mobile phones for several years. They've been absolutely flooding the U.S. market with them. They're third in the U.S. (behind RIM and Apple) and fourth worldwide.

Riddle me this: what is the WM marketshare vs. iPhone? (Not just a single hardware manufacturer's WM phones.)

There's the difference. You are picking a single handset manufacturer (HTC). I am talking about an OS that is not only on HTC phones, but will soon be on a lot of phones and other devices. Apple's battle is not against HTC alone. It's against every other OS running on all other hardware. Android is a single OS, but it will be running on a lot of different manufacturers devices very shortly, not just HTC.

And, yes, I do believe it is compelling vs. WM for handset manufactures.

But once again, just wait and see. We'll start seeing it soon enough.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

WM had the problem of starting with the wrong paradigm from the beginning. Interestingly though, the hardware seems to be actually catching up with what they've been trying to achieve: a desktop OS in your hand. ;-)

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

The iPhone autocorrect has failed me.

However, I have noticed a horrendous trend of people at parties gravitating towards talking about their cell phones at length. Instead of making peoples' lives easier, smartphones have made them more boring and one-dimensional.

Plenty of chicks with a Blackberry or iPhone in a pink skin, though. And I saw one G1 and burst out in laughter at the enormous size with its case. It was a bent brick.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

just as deluded as your statements regarding the o3d api.

What, the ones where I said "I'm not saying it's coming to the Pre, but this is an example of the capabilities of web languages"? Yes, somebody stop me, I must be crazy.

"Palm's Pre Is Trying to Live Up to the Hype"

http://tinyurl.com/pkpgkp

"...analysts estimate that Palm likely will sell just 300,000 to 500,000 Pres in their first three months on the market. That's not bad, but it's short of the outsize expectations ramped up by the phone's advanced technology and splashy debut."

"Pre appears to be a niche product, with a particular appeal to Palm devotees."

"To stanch its losses and return to tech industry relevance, Palm will need to expand its market and grab a slice of equally loyal iPhone and BlackBerry users. So far, Wall Street is waiting for the evidence."

Poor build quality, poor battery life, and sluggish performance do not help to spread good word of mouth.

You say don't listen to analysts - I think you should - it evens out the bullshit spewed by McNamee.

400,000 after three months isn't bad - but nowhere near the hype spread by McNamee - that's why the analysts are trumpeting doom & gloom.

If the sales keep slipping, they'll be selling the Palm Pre at Tiger Direct for $49.99

Compared to Pre 1.0 - I'd disagree. The iPhone 1.0 was substantially better.

>2. Flash is coming to the pre.

First mojo was the savior, now it's flash. Get back to me when the sdk supports compiled apps.

>3. More apps will come.

When mojo improves.

>4. Software updates.

That remains to be seen.

>5. Palm will eventually create their own software
>to sync for the pre.

They already did - it's called iTunes!!!

lmao!

For the sake of this argument, let's say that Palm stays in business, remains an independent entity, and continues forward pretty much par for the course. Let's say that a good bit of nifty (ie non-fart apps, etc) start appearing in the app store over the next 6-12 months.

I basically see Palm reinforcing and building upon ALL of WebOS' (and the Pre) current strengths and shoring up some of the current flaws but never looking backwards. That is, what will a Pre 3.0 look like in 2 years' time?

32GB internal storage, better build quality, possibly eventually adding video recording, voice memos (both likely for a $ for download plugin or separate app), even better use of Synergy & Web 2.0 integration, maybe eventually making good on McNamee's promise if the Pre emailing your contact to let him know you are running late for the meeting etc.

In all their hubris, I DO NOT see Ruby and co. saying "Gosh, Jeff and those plucky guys in the Pilot team had it right in 1996". I don't envision a well-worn copy of "Piloting Palm" constantly being in Rubinstein's briefcase nor do I see him rehiring Hawkins, Rob Haitani, or the tap counter. And we can forget about Palm bringing back the d-pad, the stylus, Graffiti 1, or a memory card slot. They will continue moving forward and refining everything that is in the Pre 1.0. But in no way, shape or form do I see Palm reaching into their past and beefing up the PIM apps or doing anything of that nature.

But I never write pieces based on "if, maybe, or hopefully". I wrote about the PRESENT and the PAST. And so far, Palm's efforts from Jan-August are increasingly failing to impress me.

Or to perhaps state it better: would I buy a "Pre Touch" for $199-$299 right now to play around with and so I can have some kind of WebOS device for PIC research purposes? Absolutely! Would I use such a device around the house as a poor man's web tablet/PMP/MID? Absolutely, I do the same with my old TX and would do the exact same thing with an iPod Touch. But would I lay out $199 or $299 and lock myself in for $99+ for the next $24 months with the frightening prospect of WebOS, Sprint, Palm and even the fragile Pre itself not being around in two years? Hell no!
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

Yes, that $500 2G phone with no third-party apps whatsoever was amazing. Get real!

This is a complete failure to recognize influence. If you guys don't think the first iPhone was any good, please ask the question as to why it sold so many units.

Two years ago, the majority of people didn't care about apps and 3G. The iPhone was the first phone to come out with the specific intention of lowering your blood pressure. The touchscreen interface completely blew everything else out of the water. Companies suddenly realized that people cared less about specs and more about industrial design for a product they use dozens of times daily.

A year later, with tons of copycats with nice big screens and touch interfaces, that's when the ecosystem took off. But the groundwork was laid by the original iPhone. In that respect, the iPhone 1.0 really was "that good".

The Palm that created the Pilot, the V, the Treo, and the TX is gone. They are a new company with new people at the helm. The new Palm will go its own way.

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

So it must be your high level of satisfaction with your iPhone that keeps you hanging around a Palm site, right?

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

@twrock - it's my high level of satisfaction with a Tungsten T many years ago that keeps me coming here. I keep hoping Palm will get their act together.

You smell shite?? Close your mouth.

>You constantly post ill-thought-out FUD and childish insults.

You must be speaking of yourself freak. At times I do make sarcastic postings - and insult only when insulted.

>You refuse to see the positive in anything Palm does, and on those few
>occasions when you do it's a backhanded compliment at best.

In your humble opinion - which in my opinion doesn't mean much.

The good things Palm has done:

- Developing webos (certain aspects of it are refined beyond the iphone)
- Getting the Pre out the door

The bad things Palm has done:

- Lame Pre advertising
- Poor Build quality on the Pre
- The (currently) poor state of the Mojo SDK
- The beta-esque quality of aspects of webos
- Missing functionality from webos
- The itunes fiasco

I think Palm screwed themselves out of a good opportunity with the Pre - as I was looking forward to a device that was geared towards users of the older Palm OS devices - both in for form-factor and functionality. I made the comment that instead of making a device built upon what the users of Palm OS devices would want, they made the Pre into a wannabe iphone.

Rule #1 - know your audience. Palm's hardcore audience left them.

>Your comments frequently display a stunning misunderstanding of technical
>issues.

I've largely listened to and responded to - opinion. I made the (correct) statement that Mojo would suck for quality games and apps that required high performance.

You denied that and mentioned o3d and flash. o3d doesn't exist for mobile devices and flash isn't here yet. The proper solution is for Palm to get a native code SDK out there - Javascript is not a viable long-term solution (yet) - even if it is, it will never compare to binary applications.

Then you crowed about video recording on the Pre - the hardware supports it and the low-level software supports it. The UI doesn't support, yet you go on about how the Pre supports video recording. As I stated earlier, if the Pre supported video recording properly, Palm would be trumpeting this all over the place. Fact is, they're not. I tend to side with Palm in this regard.

The itunes argument isn't a technical issue (solely) - it's largely a grey area - however it's a feature no Pre user should be dependent upon - as it will probably be disabled (again).

>This all might be acceptable if you were an entertaining nutcase, like SV or
>The (late) Voice of Reason. But you're not. You're a waste of space. Go die
>in a fire.

Oh my, an insult from Freak - if I'm to die in a fire come with me - we'll go together. LOL!

Get over yourself.

In a typical year, 2,000 Waterloo students are spending their "co-op" semester of work placement as RIM employees. They serve as a much-needed supplement to Research in Motion's ballooning operations.

I am fresh out of college with several co-op and internship experiences, and I can tell you what works and what doesn't. First, they are pretty brilliant in hiring legions of faithful interns that work for practically a third of a full-time engineer's salary. You can get a lot of mid-level work done for peanuts, and you guarantee a workforce of experienced, knowledgable technical guys in the future.

But what doesn't work is getting them all from the same university. By doing that, you end up drawing the same ideas, the same mentality, and people coached to technical fluency by the same professors. I cannot tell you how many times I quickly picked up on a colleague's inadequacy or complacency that I could correct thanks to my education. For example, one local engineering school taught statics and dynamics as one course from an inferior textbook and with larger classroom sizes. Mine was two separate courses with a much more comprehensive book, and with class sizes around 15 people. When I was working for a medical device company, this heavy background in strength of materials and mechanics became useful. The end result was that I designed different products. Sometimes mine worked better, sometimes they sucked. But the variance in educational institutions was a clear divide. I believe it was one that actually helped business.

If RIM is sourcing a lot of their new R&D talent from the same schools, they risk stagnation in the future. On the other hand, Apple came to my school to recruit and I interviewed (the job was in product development for the iPhone/iPod Touch division). My school is in Pennsylvania. Apple is literally thousands of miles away.

Think about those two strategies from a sustainability standpoint. Which one sounds better for long-term growth to you?