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Comments on: PalmSource and Microsoft Worldwide Share a Virtual Tie in 1Q

Worldwide PDA shipments declined 4.6 percent in the first quarter of 2004, but the battle for the PDA operating system market has heated up as PalmSource and Microsoft were in a virtual tie in shipments in the first quarter of 2004, according to preliminary results from Gartner.
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Awful quite in here

EdH @ 4/30/2004 9:38:21 PM #
hmmm..... ;-)
RE: Awful quite in here
4s @ 4/30/2004 11:19:12 PM #
Not to mention quiet.

<><
RE: Awful quite in here
;-o @ 5/3/2004 2:09:30 PM #
Quite quiet. Quit it.

Sony going down
ray00pal @ 5/3/2004 7:12:02 PM #
I wonder why no one noticed that Sony's sale is going down. This should be the most shocking news! They make the best PDAs around. It is just not fair.

Sonys are insanely overpriced
;-o @ 5/3/2004 8:19:21 PM #
Sony dropping like a rock is not a surprise. How many people are going to spend $600 for a PDA? Their new models should regain them market share, but they deserve exactly what they got for pricing their hardware the way they did/do.


M. Visage

RE: Awful quite in here
Timothy Rapson @ 5/3/2004 9:22:06 PM #
I love the feature set of the Clies. I have an NR70V and would be in line for a TH55. BUT, I am not going to pay over and over again for Sony's greedy flawed Memory Stink scheme. I think MS is one fo the biggest reasons Sony PDAs are faltering. I don't think their camera sales are meeting expectations either. The Memory Stick has to go.

Sony going down
ray00pal @ 5/4/2004 9:40:58 PM #
Totally agree on the memory stick thing. That is definitely a key issue with Sony.

Sony's Memory Stick isn't going anywhere.
;-o @ 5/4/2004 9:47:09 PM #
I love the feature set of the Clies. I have an NR70V and would be in line for a TH55. BUT, I am not going to pay over and over again for Sony's greedy flawed Memory Stink scheme. I think MS is one fo the biggest reasons Sony PDAs are faltering. I don't think their camera sales are meeting expectations either. The Memory Stick has to go.

You want Sony quality? Memory Stick is the price you pay. And once you buy one Memory Stick device, you'll buy another... and another...and another...

The TH-55 is that free crack vial the dealer gives out or the razor Gilette gave away to hook the unsuspecting.

Sony's sales briefly tumbled because of overly optimistic pricing. They've made "adjustments" and now will be undercutting Palm, with much better quality to boot. Palm will be left n the dust selling mainly sub-$200 PDAs

And if you ever doubted Sony's digital camera designs, take a look at this:

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dsc_t1-review/index.shtml

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0310/03102202sonydsct1.asp

Want one? Iv'e got your Memory Sticks right here, Buddy. While you're at it, can I interest you in a shiny new CLIE?


What Would Michael Mace Do? (WWMMD)
;-(( @ 5/5/2004 11:19:43 PM #
The flock needs direction in these troubled times. It's time for a true leader to step forward and calm the flock with a reassuring word or measured gesture.

No doubt these data are somehow skewed to make Palm look as bad as possible. I'll bet they didn't include the five Fossil watch prototypes that were made in January. Or all those copies of POSE running on alien picochip desktops in the Grassy Knoll sector of Area 51. I just know it.




Dear Lord, please bless the Caneman and Boy Blunder. Please keep them safe from harm.


Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

Mike Mace: Is PalmOS 6 going to debut with the new CLIE UX?
;-(( @ 5/7/2004 12:52:58 AM #
I heard this today, but traditionally Palm has been first with the new OS versions. What gives? And the new Tungsten is far too heavy. Why are you guys shooting yourselves in the foot again?

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this

Rome @ 4/30/2004 9:57:37 PM #
How can Gartner include Blackberry but not Treo 600 in a handheld market share research?

The RIM number also seems to be too high.

Did RIM or Microsoft pay Gartner to put out reports like this?

This is simply ridiculous.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
viqsi @ 5/1/2004 10:18:49 PM #
RIM is massively popular with mobile professional types, so I'm not too shocked there.

And where does it say they omitted the Treo? Sounds to me like it qualifies as a "celluar PDA".

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Rome @ 5/2/2004 11:09:04 AM #
Below is a link to a bargainpda.com report that points out that Treo 600 is NOT included in the Gartner research.

http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2028

As for the RIM number, below is a link to a article that said RIM's subscriber based rose by 204,000 last quarter.

http://tinyurl.com/yvnl9

I don't care if MSFT or RIM is in the lead, but a research firm should never compromise its integrity when it comes to its work. Look at what happened to Arthur Anderson!

This is borderline fraud, and this makes me sick.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like thi
RhinoSteve @ 5/2/2004 8:11:43 PM #
I'm going to chime in here to give Rome, who started this threat, some acknowledgement. Yes, this is gray zone fraud and yes Microsoft pays Gartner lots of money.

However, if Gartner is ever pulled into Federal Trade Court, their very workable defense is that there is no established nor regulated method to measure market share in the PDA space since product classifications change so fast. This unfortunately is true and they take this doubt to the advantage of their sponsors.

Unlike some more regulated industries with Federal overwatch programs, like agricultural, airlines and automotive, the computer business has benn heavy defended to keep regulation from stifling innovation. Unfortunately, this also creates grossly interpretable market information.

There is an old quote that goes, "There are lies, damn lies and there are statistics." Gartner has taken this to heart. The bottom line is they are more concerned about *their* bottom line and not an objectionable view of the market.

If you want good product reviews, Consumer Reports now does PDA reviews about one or twice a year. However, they do not do anything in market share computation. I wish they did.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
AbigailS @ 5/3/2004 7:12:24 PM #
Rome & Rhino,

Try reading a bit and do the math before posting such inane remarks.

From RIM's April 7 financial report:
Revenue for the fourth quarter of fiscal 2004 was $210.6 million, up 37% from $153.9 million in the previous quarter and up 141% from $87.5 million in the same quarter of last year. The revenue breakdown for the quarter was approximately 66% for handhelds.

$210.6 million x .66 = $139 million. If there were only 204,000 units shipped (you took their net subscriber additions), that would mean that each BlackBerry device shipped would cost an average of $681. Anyone familiar with the BlackBerry knows that is roughly twice what they typically cost. So there probably were close to 405 thousand units shipped as Gartner reported.

There is a tremendous amount of upgrading going on in the BlackBerry installed base, as users switch from older models to the new color 7000-series models based on 2.5G networks. Net subscriber additions are not equal to the number of devices shipped.

I suppose the math may be a bit too much for you yokels to comprehend. You are obviously the kind of people who shoot first and ask questions later.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
;-o @ 5/3/2004 8:24:14 PM #
Abby: You go, girl!!!!!!

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Rome @ 5/3/2004 8:53:49 PM #
Good reply, AbigailS. My research was flawed and I fully admit my mistakes. No excuses from my end.

It does appear that RIMM shipped 400K units of Blackberries in 1Q. Neverthess, I still believe that Gartner underestimated the number of Palm OS devices shipped in 1Q.

As for your other post regarding the fact that Gartner can't be influenced or bought, I have to disagree with you.....just call it personal experience.

Thanks for the correction on the Blackberry shipment number.



RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Rome @ 5/3/2004 9:11:13 PM #
"I suppose the math may be a bit too much for you yokels to comprehend. You are obviously the kind of people who shoot first and ask questions later."

BTW, this statement is actually kind of mean and funny....I guess I deserve it after my previous remarks on RIM.

Well then, allow me to demonstrate my limited math skill and hopefully I won't embarrass myself. Here are some additional data on Palm OS shipment: I went back and listened to PSRC's latest conference call again. The CFO specifically mentioned that its licensees reported shipping 2 millions units of Palm OS based devices from 12/03 - 2/04. I believe that Gartner had the Palm OS unit shipment at 1.1 million, excluding the Treo 600 shipment. If we take out the 200,000 units in smartphone shipment(137,000 by PLMO and 63,000 by others), we are at 1.8 million, 700K above Gartner's estimate. Of course, there is always the possibility that the CFO was lying to us.

As for your other point of Blackberry being a data-centric device while the Treo is not, therefore justifying Gartner's exclusion of Treo. This simply doesn't much sense since the latest Blackberries almost all have voice capability. Sure the Blackberries don't make a great voice phone, but this doesn't mean that the Treo should be excluded simply because it handles both data and voice well. Case in point - if you go to attwireless.com, you will see that BOTH Blackberries and Treos are listed under the PDA Phone category. In short, Gartner's exclusion of Treo and inclusion of Blackberry in its PDA market share report is highly unusual and illogical, especially when Blackberry didn't even make it in top 5 in a similar research report by Gartner's key rival IDC in the previous week.


RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
AbigailS @ 5/4/2004 1:37:13 AM #
Rome,

It's nice to encounter people such as yourself who are mature enough to admit mistakes.

One thing about the palmOne numbers - they do not correspond to calendar quarter 1, but instead refer to palmOne's fiscal quarter, which includes their biggest sales month of the year - December.

Given how certain PalmSource employees monitor websites such as this one, I think that if the Gartner estimate of palmOne sales were substantially in error, one of them would have pointed this out.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
AbigailS @ 5/4/2004 2:13:41 AM #
Forgot to add that since the 2 million quoted was from PalmSource for Dec. - Feb., while the 1.1 million Gartner number is only for palmOne for Jan. - Mar., you also need to factor out the sales of Sony, Garmin, Tapwave, etc.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Rome @ 5/4/2004 10:51:26 AM #
AbigailS,

To quote a smart lady who once caught me doing erroneous analysis:

“Try reading a bit and do the math before posting such inane remarks”

The 1.1 million shipment number was not the PalmOne number, but rather the Palm OS or PalmSource(PSRC) number, which should include all Sony, Samsung, Tapwave shipments. The PalmOne shipment, according to Gartner, was 835K. You can verify this info on the article above.

I am not questioning Gartner’s number on PalmOne, other than the fact that it left out
Treo 600 while including Blackberries. It is the worldwide OS market share number that I have issues with. If you go back and look at my previous post again, my analysis was centered on Palm OS.

It is also true that PalmOne’s biggest selling month of the year is December. However, to meet the strong retail demand in December, most of the handhelds were actually shipped during the Sept. – Nov. quarter. If you look at Palmone ‘s income statements, you will find that Palmone ‘s Nov. quarter typically generates the highest revenue of the year.

To use another quote (with a minor modification) from a smart lady who once caught me doing erroneous analysis:

“I suppose the reading(math) may be a bit too much for you yokels to comprehend. You are obviously the kind of people who shoot first and ask questions later.”

No hard feelings…..just couldn’t pass up the opportunity to give you a hard time. Thanks again for pointing out my mistakes on RIM.


RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
viqsi @ 5/4/2004 5:04:30 PM #
On the Treo exclusion: I've read that article, and I do not see anything conclusively demonstrating that the Treo 600, or the Kyocera 7135, or any of the Samsungs, or (for that matter) anything WinMobile Phone Edition was excluded (a direct statement from Gartner themselves would be a help here). I worry that this may be a bit of a partisan viewpoint that's getting put up, given that both assertions come from Palm-oriented websites ("But the number's GOTTA be higher than that! IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!").

Please, back up the exclusion claim. It's been a while since I've gotten the opportunity to put my foot in my mouth. :)

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Rome @ 5/4/2004 6:38:11 PM #
I already did. It is in my second post on this thread. Follow the link.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
viqsi @ 5/4/2004 8:12:25 PM #
rome: Already done. "I've read that article" was referring to what you linked to. It's on PalmBoulevard, which is why I'm worrying about bias. :)

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
viqsi @ 5/4/2004 8:13:53 PM #
Actually, let me retract that. I just checked again, and apparently my trick memory got me. Oopsie.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Wollombi @ 5/5/2004 7:04:17 PM #
Abaigail, what you miss is this:

Blackberry units DO cost a lot more than the consumer's "sticker price". Just like cellular phones, the retail vendor gives the unit to you for less than their cost on the sticker price, but the unit is then subsidized via the service plan rates. So yes, a Blackberry could indeed cost the company (Nextel, Verizon, etc.) 600+ dollars, meaning fewer units would be shipped for the reported monetary amount.

I have to commend Rome for patiently bearing through your initial verbal abuse. It is more than could be expected of most reasonable people, seeing as your remarks were nothing short of inflammatory, saved by the fact that you threw in a couple lines of well-thought, but possibly erroneous, monologue. You would do well to avoid doing so in the future, but hey, that's just my opinion.

However, since your math may also be flawed, since you didn't bother to take actual business practices into account, who is truly the "yokel" that is "posting such inane remarks"? To further quote your own words, you seem to have, through your actions, made yourself out to be the kind of person who "shoots first and asks questions later"!

As for the quote by ";-o":
"Abby: You go, girl!!!!!!"

Heh. If you are who I think you are, I would expect nothing less of you. Wasn't your handle ";-)" before you got banned for being so inflammatory yourself? Have you decided that your better course of action is to encourage others to be inflammatory for you, sort of living life vicariously? If this is not you, then please disregard and accept my apology for the mistake.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

Abby: let's MESS him up!
;-(( @ 5/5/2004 10:38:43 PM #
Abby. This flamer just dissed you, Girlfriend. Bring it on MoFo!

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Wollombi @ 5/6/2004 7:48:13 PM #
I see you changed your handle yet again. Just remember, folks, ;-o and ;-(( are one in the same.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Wollombi @ 5/6/2004 7:49:03 PM #
BTW, it was not flaming. I made no true personal attacks on Abby as a person, I just stated that her actions made her out to look like the very thing she called Rome and Rhino.

How is the dissing?

Here is what a flame looks like...read carefully:

You are an irrlelevent, drooling idiot.

See the difference? Of course you don't, cause you're a vegetable with a keyboard.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

Flaming Wollombi
;-(( @ 5/6/2004 9:54:48 PM #
I said you were a flamer. Look up the definition of "flaming" and you'll see your picture. With you and Mickey Cane holding hands.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like this
Wollombi @ 5/7/2004 12:36:30 AM #
You seem to have this obsessive fascination with manlove. Perhaps you're a closet member of NAMBLA?

Heh. It figures.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Gartner should be shot for putting out research like thi
Winter_ @ 5/7/2004 7:18:25 AM #
See the difference? Of course you don't, cause you're a vegetable with a keyboard.

Oh shoot, you made me laugh out loud!! Inquiring looks! XD

Competition is good

Foo Fighter @ 4/30/2004 10:34:31 PM #
Personally I am somewhat happy to see and tie race. Maybe this will spur innovation and greater competition on both platforms, or certainly light a fire under the feet of both camps. I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?

Bring it on!

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Competition is good
Patrick @ 5/2/2004 3:41:19 AM #
Yes, competition is good. The only thing.. the ONLY thing... I care about is that M$ does not use its virtually unlimited funds to squash Palm OS. I want *both* camps to survive and flourish. I guess that is my only real complaint about PPC, and that is the potential for there not to be a Palm in the near future because of the marketing might and tactics of the Big M.


RE: Competition is good
palmato @ 5/2/2004 9:08:48 AM #
Right, it's MS who doesn't like competition. They have no problem in using dubious business practices in order to achieve their goals, and using their financial resources to pay for endless litigation.

However some of the current PalmOne problems are also of their own making. Drop in quality of products, especially in the higher end (T,T2,T3 woes) is pretty much evident.


------------------------
Tired of PPC? Get a TT!

RE: Competition is good
Foo Fighter @ 5/2/2004 3:07:35 PM #
>> "They have no problem in using dubious business practices in order to achieve their goals, and using their financial resources to pay for endless litigation."

True, but unfortunately this is a tactic used by many companies in the tech industry to get ahead. Adobe has attempted several times, unsuccessfully, to kill off its main rival Macromedia by filing copyright infringement suits. Adobe says it invented the concept of floating pallets, and got an injunction against Macromedia, forcing the company to completely redesign its software. Now...there are hundreds..perhaps thousands...of applications out there that use floating pallet toolbars. Why isn't Adobe going after them? Because Adobe saw a window of opportunity to kill off or cripple its competitor. Why try to compete with them when you can simply put them out of business? Very shady business ethics.

If you can't innovate...litigate. That's the way to get ahead in silicon valley. Microsoft may engage in seemingly unscrupulous strategies, but they ARE NOT alone.



-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

Gartner is not to be trusted

RhinoSteve @ 4/30/2004 10:50:10 PM #
In my opinion, Garner is not the most trustworthy market forecasing company out there. They change market share formulas as much as they can to favor anyone that gives them enough advertising money.

Gartner, who has Microsoft sponsoring their conferences, is not going to look honestly at someone that else that doesn't sponsor them. I know several very good market researchers that have quit Gartner for having their research papers kicked back to "reevaluate" to give sponsors more favor.

The omission of any Smartphone data in this evaluation is proof of a bias. The hard stat is portable, handheld OS devices sold no matter what their packaging be it cell phone, stand alone or vertical.

Also, this data is freely given out to the public. In this game, you get what you pay for. When I see Gartner on any market report, I don't give it any value.

The bottom line is that this -20% "drop" in PDA share is due to the fact that the Treo is selling very very well but was left out of this report. Also, the PPC Smartphones are tanking with massive data storage, community failures (yes, PPC Smartphones are crashing mid-cell phone conversation) and thus returns are very high.

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
JarJar @ 5/1/2004 11:30:13 PM #
Well it maybe true that Garner is not to be trusted, but would you still be objecting if they said that Palm was in the lead?

Nobody ever questioned the reports when Palm was strongly in front.

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
StudentDoc @ 5/2/2004 1:49:29 AM #
This survey may be accurate, but the guy above is correct: Gartner will say anything for a price. I have worked for companies that paid Gartner for a lot of "consulting" that led to rave reviews for our products.
But I would not be surprised if PPC's were selling as well as Palms. I would have thought that CE sold more than Palm already.

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
samheddle @ 5/2/2004 9:03:48 AM #
Look at the report carefully. It says that Handspring numbers were reported. What is the only Handspring device made? The Treo.

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
RhinoSteve @ 5/2/2004 8:24:43 PM #
Sam, what flavor of KoolAide are you drinking? Read this page to show that there is not up to date Treo info.

http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2028

I stand by my opinion.

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
AbigailS @ 5/3/2004 7:36:01 PM #
My company (Motorola) subscribes to lots of Gartner reports and consulting services. While Gartner analyzes lots of companies, they do not perform product reviews, as was suggested above.

There are dozens of IT industry research houses. Gartner would not as successful as they are if they were as biased as StudentDoc seem to believe.

The reason the Treo 600 is not in the Gartner PDA statistics is probably because the Treo is considered to be a smartphone. It is a voice-centric device and palmOne themselves are happy to call it a smartphone, not a PDA.

Conversely, the BlackBerry units are considered PDAs because they are data-centric. Ever try using a BlackBerry as a phone? Maybe that's why nearly all BlackBerry users still use cellular phones.

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
RhinoSteve @ 5/4/2004 12:15:56 AM #
Dear Abby, (I couldn't resist that!)

Seem you have drunk the "Smartphones are not PDA's" KoolAide too. If it runs a PDA OS, runs PDA software, you can carry it around like a PDA, it IS a PDA.

This reclassification of Smartphones as not being PDAs is pure market profile bias. Any market PDA profiles should cover Smartphones.

I still stand by what I say.

Signed,
A Rhino on the Internet


RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
AbigailS @ 5/4/2004 1:46:21 AM #
Rhino,

If I were going to drink KoolAid, I'd prefer cherry rather than a cherry + orange mix. At my company, we prefer to see the PDA and smartphone numbers kept separate.

If you lump these numbers together as you suggest, many details are lost. It would be like Ford providing data on the number of vehicles they have sold, but you don't know how many were trucks and how many were cars.

If we were trying to make a decision about which PDAs to consider deploying, mixing in data on Nokia's smartphones with that of HP, Dell, etc. would only cloud the decision.

We think Microsoft has the handheld market segmentation figured out pretty well. They have the Smartphone OS for devices such as the Motorola MPx200, the Phone Edition for cellular (data-centric) PDAs, and Pocket PC for standalone PDAs.

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
RhinoSteve @ 5/4/2004 7:16:17 AM #
Abby,

That analogy doesn't float. You are confusing deployment, useage and market share as all the same statistic. This clouds forecasting and earnings leading to marginal at best enterprise decision making.

If you are actually endorsing PPC Smartphones, have fun on the return rate. It is not good at all.

I still stand by what I say. Be intersting if we are ever at opposite ends of a negotating table.

I will not comment on this further. But I'm sure you can't resist the temptation of the last word here. ;)

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
StudentDoc @ 5/5/2004 12:19:47 AM #
Just personal experience....Gartner will tell you that the sky is orange if you pay them enough. I was once impressed with their stats, too, but I don't trust anything they put out anymore.

Check their old crap they put out about OS/2, microchannel architecture, etc.; you will see they overstated market share, etc., to make a certain Big Blue company's products look far more successful than the crap they put out ever was.

BTW I never said they did product reviews. They just manipulate stats. Like someone above said: lies, damn lies, and statistics. Believe whatever you want.

(Written on a brand new PS2 microchannel PowerPC 9942 running OS/2, after all, it is market leading technology that will never be overtaken by other technologies....Right.)

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
Wollombi @ 5/5/2004 7:28:13 PM #
>"At my company, we prefer to see the PDA and smartphone numbers kept separate."<

Hmm...perhaps that's why Motorola doesn't sell much of either. Don't get me wrong, Moto was once a stellar company, and they still make great products....in other markets. However, you seem to imply that they are major players in the smartphone and PDA segments, which is laughable at best, but utterly preposterous at worst. Oh, and sweetie, the MPx200 is equally laughable. Have fun on the warranty replacements and customer returns.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
;-(( @ 5/5/2004 10:42:03 PM #
Oh, and sweetie,


Abby, do you want to rip this Power Puff Girl a new one or should I?

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: Gartner is not to be trusted
RhinoSteve @ 5/6/2004 12:56:58 AM #
I hate to say it but Moto is at the size where they don't like having Mavericks inside the organization anymore and MBA types that never took a big risk in their whole life run the show. No wonder they never did well with a PDA of their own.

Windows CE?

ganoe @ 5/1/2004 6:37:54 PM #
So what all are they covering here when they say Windows CE? That could easily include a lot of devices that aren't your traditional PDA.

Is palmOne now censoring the comments here?

;-o @ 5/2/2004 2:55:33 AM #
Anything even vaguely critical of Palm is immediately deleted these days. Is Palm now running Palminfocenter? Or do they have an advertising contact that stipulates no negative posts are allowed?

The fact that no stories about the new Zire models ran until the day they were released makes one wonder if Palminfocenter is now just controlled by Palm. So much for objectivity. Remember the days when PalmInfocenter had active discussion and was fun? Please bring those days back and stop censoring (brutally honest) comments that embarass your advertisers. The steep drop in comments posted here suggests a lot of people are deciding to look elsewhere for information. Maybe you could encourage more Palm execs to post here to drum up some interest...

No doubt this post will be deleted in a few hours and this user name will be banned. Whatever, Ryan. It's your site to do with as you please.

RE: Is palmOne now censoring the comments here?
MrBond @ 5/2/2004 11:51:24 AM #
Jesus man, take off your tinfoil hat and start looking at things rationally here.

Why weren't there any new Zire stories? Have you ever considered the admins might be busy, maybe even busy reviewing said units? Particularly if they had the actual unit in their hands, Palmone probably required them to sign an NDA, which generally *requires* silence in exchange for a first crack at the units.

http://www.mozilla.org

RE: Is palmOne now censoring the comments here?
Admin @ 5/2/2004 2:21:57 PM #
you are way off the mark on this. First off nothing on this story has been censored, so what are you complaining about? If you did your homework you'd realize that PIC was the first to break the rumor about the upcoming Zire handhelds. In order to get review units in advance so I can post the reviews the day of release it often requires I sign an embargo which prevents me from posting on any of the further rumors. Stop making baseless accusations and making personal attacks, not to mention changing your screen name ever so often.
RE: Is palmOne now censoring the comments here?
StudentDoc @ 5/2/2004 2:59:31 PM #
"take off your tinfoil hat..." That was excellent!

RE: Is palmOne now censoring the comments here?
alexp @ 5/3/2004 12:15:44 PM #
Oh, good Lord...

Yeah, palmOne's CEO is watching over every keystroke.

Idiot.

RE: Is palmOne now censoring the comments here?
Wollombi @ 5/5/2004 7:35:23 PM #
Yup. You just confirmed your former identity. You're about as classically idiotic as they come. You should go join Ska in the corner marked "Irrelevant Morons Here".

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!

mikecane @ 5/3/2004 8:42:43 AM #
How many of those PPC owners are former PalmOS POWER users who just got fed up with the arrogance -- and/or stupidity -- of the guardians of PalmOS?

A filesystem isn't needed? Screw you!

We must CONVERT MP3s and JPEGs and MPEGs to store in RAM? Screw you!

We CAN'T have fonts? Screw you!

And so it went -- and WILL CONTINUE TO GO.

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
amike @ 5/3/2004 10:51:35 AM #
Why on the hell keep MP3 or JPEG on RAM ? Or Font ?

Fundamentally, these "incredible" fonctionnalities are only "plus", pretty plus indeed, but no more.

RIM DO NOT need them to explode its sales...


RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
Winter_ @ 5/3/2004 12:03:31 PM #
Let's say I have enough internal RAM to carry there whatever MP3 tracks I love, or whatever scanned maps (JPG) I want. As I do, in fact. Better yet: let's say I ONLY want my PDA for THAT. Now try to explain why I can't (without making me laugh :P).

Next step: try to explain how on Earth can happen that software makers have the guts to advertise "filesystem navigation" as a PRO FEATURE, for Goth's sake. Freaky, huh? Well, there's a way: you only need that the OS creator touts the filesystem as something unnecessary. Voila!, you have it.

I still remember the time I lost my first day trying to upload some files to a T3... and how I felt. I could only assume something was wrongly configured, or bad installed, or whatever - there was no way to upload non-PDBs and PRCs! But, alas!, there's people trying to call that a feature. That's when I started to understand some things about Palms...
If the T3 had been mine, I would have sent it back to the shop right at the moment. (I couldn't regard an OS with such quirkinesses as more than a toy...)

(much later I learnt to just not to expect too much from the OS... and now it's almost endurable. But from time to time I still get mad when I remember that such an amazing hardware is possessed by SUCH A RETARDED OS...)

I felt SO sorry for a friend whom I had recommended to buy a Palm instead of a PPC...

As much as I hate M$, I can't understand how PPCs have not been able to take over Palm OS. They must be doing something terribly wrong.

I just hope Linux sweeps them all soon. :P

(just for the record: I guess Palm OS 4 on a device like the m105 is OK, even clever. But a T3 with OS 5... is a freak. Well, at least it works. :P)

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
alexp @ 5/3/2004 12:17:07 PM #
Yeah, every time someone buys a PPC at CompUSA, I can here them now:

"Man, look at all the amazing FONTS!"

I'd be willing to bet an INCREDIBLY small proportion of these new PPC users are former Palm users who are protesting shirtless in the streets of Seattle(or perhaps San Jose) over their arrogant insistence to keep out .

What I WOULD suggest, RATIONALLY, is that:
1) Microsoft's shipping more on the enterprise side, where they've always had the edge, and where companies, buoyed by an improving economy, are more willing to invest in PDAs for their employees.
2) Said companies are swayed by the perceived seamless integration of WM2003 with their other Windows products.
3) Gartner, ever Microsoft's shill, cooks the numbers to keep the $$$ rolling in.

I, too, would like to see a real file system in PalmOS (perhaps in Cobalt?). And I'd like to see other new features. I guess I've just never gotten hemherroidal enough to conclude that PalmSource somehow has embarked on a conspiracy to screw me up you-know-where as they laugh like Dr. Evil because I own one of their products. This is why I see such blustering diatribes as, well, bluster.

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
Fernando @ 5/3/2004 1:04:14 PM #
i too find it rediculous that we have such great hardware available to us, but a relativitely simple filesystem is no wher eto be seen!

suprisingly enough both the tapwave handhelds (zodiac 1 and 2) have a filesystem that you can put non db and prc files in. It's memory acts as a memory card, isntead of onboard ram. you might wanna take a look at it, if you got the cash....

Put a sock in it.
;-o @ 5/3/2004 1:22:25 PM #
As much as I hate M$, I can't understand how PPCs have not been able to take over Palm OS. They must be doing something terribly wrong.

Must...resist...

*****************************************************

While it's nice to see the Caneman trying to provoke some discussion at PIC by posting another shrill thread, his latest obsession (Palm's lack of an easily accessible filesystem) is of little concern to about 99.938% (I made that number up) of Palm users. And Palm is smart enough to not complicate the OS by attempting to appease the yappy members of that "elite" 0.062% (rounded down to 0%) - some of whom are still using PDAs as old as the CLIE S320 and don't appear to ever plan on buying a new Palm anyway.

A few facts:

1) Palm's file management system was designed to be simple and to work on relatively primitive hardware. My Pilot 5000 is not much different from my Palm Pilot Professional, IIIe, IIIx, IIIxe, TRGpro, uberCLIE, etc. for good reason: the OS just plain works.

2) Palm's file management system still works well on new hardware and Palm has been able to achieve backwards compatibility of programs for an impressively long time. At minimal cost to Palm.

3) Most people are more concerned with having a device that gives them access to the information they need (usually just schedule, address book, to do list - believe it or not) and don't give a rat's arse about file systems.

4) Supporting clueless newbies that mess things up by doing really stupid things costs a lot of money. Even if that support is outsourced to India. Adding an easily accessible file system is a sure way to drive up support costs.

Newbie: I can't find my MP3! Help me! Waaaaaaaa! What's a "folder"? Waaaaaaaa!

Palm: Have you tried a "hard reset", Sir?

5) Palm has limited resources and needs to spend its remaining cash where it will get the best returns. Adding a file system is not high on its list of "To Dos".

I hope Palm keeps its priorities straight and gets back to basics. Number one on its To Do list should be fixing its quality control problems.


M. Visage

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
Winter_ @ 5/3/2004 2:47:24 PM #
1) Well, now that the hardware has advanced an fscking awful lot, can we have a little more capable OS, pleeeeeez? Perhaps just a way not to have to HACK around just to put an MP3 or a JPG on the internal RAM? (now explain how that's user friendly and such)

2) Do you mean that a filesystem would mean broken compatibility?

2b) Minimal cost to palm??? Yeah, your quite right there! (rolls eyes...)

3) Easy access to their info?... do you mean that a filesystem would make it hard to access info? Wouldn't it make easier to put your info wherever you fancy?

"Hey, I'll take that file to home. I'll upload it to my Palm's 64 Mb internal RAM. Mhm, wait a moment, I forgot the retarded OS. May I install Palm Desktop, please? Hey, don't laugh!" (ah, if I could make you feel how P A I N F U L was to realize that the shiny, SD capable, $300+ T3 simply would not double as a flash drive...)

3b) Why did your beloved Sony add that program that lets you use Clies as USB drives?

4) You don't want an easily accesible filesystem? OK, make it a little bit hard to access. Or an optional install. Or JUST REMOVE THE RETARDED HOTSYNC LIMITS!!!! Just find a way not to hose "power users" (if you want to call that to whoever knows what a folder is and what RAM can be used for - for sure that makes Palm users sound pretty bad).

(while we're at it, should I mention Hotsync's speed?)

4b) You mean that today's newbies using a MP3 player don't know what a folder is? Erm... where did they get their MP3s from? Some CP/M or DOS 1.0 computer perhaps? (because, you know, every computer that I know of since then has used folders...)

5) Must..... resist......

Why Palm sticks to the KISS principle:
;-o @ 5/3/2004 3:26:53 PM #
1) Well, now that the hardware has advanced an fscking awful lot, can we have a little more capable OS, pleeeeeez? Perhaps just a way not to have to HACK around just to put an MP3 or a JPG on the internal RAM? (now explain how that's user friendly and such)

2) Do you mean that a filesystem would mean broken compatibility?

2b) Minimal cost to palm??? Yeah, your quite right there! (rolls eyes...)

3) Easy access to their info?... do you mean that a filesystem would make it hard to access info? Wouldn't it make easier to put your info wherever you fancy?

"Hey, I'll take that file to home. I'll upload it to my Palm's 64 Mb internal RAM. Mhm, wait a moment, I forgot the retarded OS. May I install Palm Desktop, please? Hey, don't laugh!" (ah, if I could make you feel how P A I N F U L was to realize that the shiny, SD capable, $300+ T3 simply would not double as a flash drive...)

3b) Why did your beloved Sony add that program that lets you use Clies as USB drives?

4) You don't want an easily accesible filesystem? OK, make it a little bit hard to access. Or an optional install. Or JUST REMOVE THE RETARDED HOTSYNC LIMITS!!!! Just find a way not to hose "power users" (if you want to call that to whoever knows what a folder is and what RAM can be used for - for sure that makes Palm users sound pretty bad).

(while we're at it, should I mention Hotsync's speed?)

4b) You mean that today's newbies using a MP3 player don't know what a folder is? Erm... where did they get their MP3s from? Some CP/M or DOS 1.0 computer perhaps? (because, you know, every computer that I know of since then has used folders...)

1) No, you may not. The current Palm OS works perfectly fine "as is" for the vast majority of its users. You don't seem to realize how basic the average Palm owner's grasp of computers is. If you want native file storage, you have several options available today. Why would anyone want to rely on limited RAM for storage anyway? Open you eyes and you'll see a number of workarounds.

2) Different file system = added complexity + broken compatibility (if not done properly). Not a good idea, since simplicity and compatibility are two of Palm's three best features. (The third is the massive PalmOS software library.)

2b) I estimate it cost Palm around $1.49 to update PalmOS 5 to PalmOS 6/Amethyst/Opal/Sapphire/Emerald/Whatever. Smart move.

3) If users don't need something to do a job, why give them the option. It only gives them the chance to mess things up. Just read some of the posts here and you'll see why supporting Palms must be a nightmare for Palm, Somy, Tapwave and Garmin. Unless a company has very deep pockets, KISS rules.

3b) And if you only knew how many questions this capability generates, you'd understand why Palm was wise to not include similar functionality. Let people who want this (all 218 of them) buy an app like SyncWizard instead.

4) Even better: leave everything as is. Get a file manager like McFile/FileMan/FileZ, Ram Disk and SyncWizard etc. and stop whining. Don't like it? Get a PPC. Then you'll stop complaining. You don't realize how good you have it now with PalmOS. Ungrateful b*****ds.

4b) A 4 oz PDA is not a desktop. What works on a desktop is not necessarily needed (or even desirable) on a PDA. This seems to be a difficult concept for many to grasp for some strange reason.

Edumacate yourself. Class dismissed.

Caney: the word for today is "haloperidol". Can you say it?
;-o @ 5/3/2004 4:35:51 PM #
How many of those PPC owners are former PalmOS POWER users who just got fed up with the arrogance -- and/or stupidity -- of the guardians of PalmOS?

A filesystem isn't needed? Screw you!

We must CONVERT MP3s and JPEGs and MPEGs to store in RAM? Screw you!

We CAN'T have fonts? Screw you!

And so it went -- and WILL CONTINUE TO GO.

"Guardians of PalmOS"? You're too funny. Every time I see a post from you I get an image of a short, obese, unmarried 50-something year old guy (like the guy in the "Lone Gunman" group on the X-Files) pecking away in a dingy basement apartment littered with old pizza boxes in a New York tenament. Of corse, that's nothing like you... is it?

Please take a benzodiazepine - or at least a Tylenol.



RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
IndyDave @ 5/3/2004 5:39:30 PM #
LOL!

"Michael, please put down whatever is in your left (right?)hand. Pull up your pants. Wash your hands. Here's your Xanax."

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
Timothy Rapson @ 5/3/2004 9:36:41 PM #
The file system is the one thing that I most miss from my old Ipaq. I have hundreds of word processing docs on my Clie NR70V and Zire 71. Some are multiple megabytes. I want to be able to put then in folders and nest the folders inside of other folder. Maybe that is why people who managed such files in paper form over the past several generations developed the whole files and folders system. It works! I also want a universal search function to find lost stuff. I want fonts (though WordSmith does this just fine for 90% of my work, it would be nice to have real fonts in TealPaint, AcidImage, and MyBible.) I am hoping to not have to jump to a Linux or PPC handheld. If PalmOne offers a Zire 73 with OS6 and Virtual Grafitti area (including files, fonts, and more sharing/searching features) I am going to be very happy.

Word is that OS six has a standard way to paste in a lot of different input methods. I love FITALY. If it worked just as it did on my Ipaq, I would be eternally satisfied.

The ranting and raving is nice, but looking at the market I have to accept that it is what it is. We are just going to have to wait for new OS 6 models to get these features. But, PalmOne must also see that with their market share slipping badly they have to do this right and soon or they will be history.

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
RhinoSteve @ 5/4/2004 12:25:20 AM #
Mike,

So were you the one that insisted on having paper tape and punchcard readers for your desktop PC?

Man I now know how to spot you at CES, you will be the one that converted your vinyl records to play on Pocket PC right?

Steve


RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
Winter_ @ 5/4/2004 6:55:53 AM #
Let me make this short...

You "think" that Palm OS is PERFECT. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Period.

1) So you think that "easy to use" means "not allowing the user to grow into the device"?

"Rely on limited RAM for storage"?? ROTFWL!!!! Well, my problem is, I still don't know where to get UNlimited RAM for storage. Until then, I sure as he11 will use what I've got. I've used before 1.44 Mb diskettes and 32 and 64 flash drives; pity a $300+ 64 Mb device can't do the trick.
(hey, my camera CAN do it!! XD)

However, a USB connected device with a SD slot and some SD cards comes the closest I can think of to "unlimited RAM for storage". Unless, of course, the device is too dumb to act as a dumb drive.

Workarounds? I expected the T3 to be THE workaround. Do you think justifiable that Palm users get advised to get a card reader to load whatever on the cards? (I couldn't understand that before I got the T3...)

Do I really need to explain this to this level of detail? To you, Palm OS is just perfect, and there's nothing to add nor to take out. Is that it?
I'm sorry for the people that already got the point some posts ago.

2) Different file system = blahblahblah. I'll repeat: make it something kind of hidden, or an optional install, or WHATEVER. Keep the old one, that lowest/lowly common denominator, for compatibility and for whatever program that wants to take advantage of it, but why kill the rest of possibilities? I NEVER heard before that user-friendliness meant crippling the device, barring the functionality even from power users.

Just including something like "USB card export" or the Clie's USB drive app and some way to take profit of the internal RAM (a souped up RAM drive?) would almost compensate for this stupidity. Almost. Kind of.

2b) So, for you the way to keep backwards compatibility is not to add new features. Heh. That, and keeping away filesystems.
Imagine how uninformed I was! I thought it had to do with APIs, binary formats, responsible coding and esoterics like that.
You should contact Micro$oft ASAP... looks like they need you.
(Hey, man, that's it! I'll PAY you to go work for them!! XD)

3) "If the users don't need something to do a job...". You seem to define "job = whatever that does not need a filesystem". I have a $300+, 400Mhz device with 64 Mb RAM, stereo sound output and an included MP3 player. But it is USELESS because I can't upload MP3!! And you still want me to be thankful? Repeat after me: "stupidly crippled". ROTFWL!!!!!!!

3b) Hey, I managed to make you critizice Sony!! XD
You have so much insider / future info, you must be some kind of God.
(mhm, you said some time ago that your infos talked about Palm's Bluetooth SD drivers coming out before summer... how's that going?)

3c) Going back to your extremely stupid newbie example... how different would it be if a filesystem was involved? Couldn't a hard reset just, well you know, hard-reset the internal filesystem? (hey, should I patent the idea?)

4) I already am using MediaManager, FileZ and Ram Disk. Now, let's say I want to upload a .PNG file: I must define the location on MediaManager (and wait some aeons for the PNG to be uploaded). I want to upload a folder full of .HTML and .GIF files with some subfolders: out of luck! upload folder by folder, redefining destinations for each folder. I-n-c-r-e-d-i-b-l-e.
You seem not to realize how fscked up is Palm OS as soon as you get out of the self-contained, limited-data-handling apps.

4b) I don't want a desktop computer, McFly! I just want to upload MP3 to my cardless T3, as kludge-free as possible. But looks like that's asking too much.
I just hope that, if someone is looking for info on Palm devices before buying one, reads all of this and realizes what s/he is getting into. In fact, I'm looking for some way of blogging all these experiences.

4c) ? You're the best, dud. ROTFWL!!!!! These things cost fscking money, man!! I'm FEEDING those Palm designers, and they deliver THIS? XD

4d) You still haven't answered why you suppose MP3 users don't know what a folder is. Do you think they keep their MP3 collections on flat, non-folder-capable, file systems?
Have you tried uploading, say, 3 MP3 albums via hotsync to a memory card, and later (30 minutes later!!!!) trying to sort the (flat-filesystem'ed) mess with play lists and such? ...isn't THAT amusingly heartbreaking?
Now explain how such a thing can be advertised as a MP3 player. (you know about that Zire promotion, don't you?)
I'm sure that if you mention that to any prospective buyer, s/he will quickly run awa... I mean, search for other options. After looking at you incredulously, that is.
Well, after all, you know, Palms are just agendas that do not need any apps to be incredibly useful tools. (C) Facey Research VLtd. LOL!

Please, post some pic of you... I'd love to know what someone that makes me laugh this much looks like. (colleagues are starting to look at me funny - they want me to tell the jokes...:P)

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
RhinoSteve @ 5/5/2004 1:48:24 PM #
You can rant and rave but the real proof in the pudding in any market is the statistic of "usage retention" that leads to repeat customers. That is, how long a product is actually used after it is purchased and when that is worn out, another one of the brand is purchased.

In the Watson inspired IBM / Gates inspired Microsoft realms, they try to set up non-standard integration issues that "locks in" the user and customers keeps it since they payed for it. However, the PDA is more consumer electronics in purchase patterns and not capital expenses.

Thus, "lock in" marketing model doen't work here. PPC vendors can make all the claims about market share they want. The reality is that the average period of use of a PPC is less than two months after purchase. Ask what the PPC return rate is at your local retailer compaired to a Palm device. It is almost a 10x difference.

After that -- if they are not turned off to PDAs in general -- they buy a Palm device. Most are then happy with the software selection, data storage integrity and consistency of desktop software sync'ing.

It is kind of like a teenager first dating a child of one of their parents friends. When that arranged relationship doesn't work out, you head out on your own and find someone you like on your terms.
RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
Wollombi @ 5/5/2004 7:49:20 PM #
>"3) Easy access to their info?... do you mean that a filesystem would make it hard to access info? Wouldn't it make easier to put your info wherever you fancy?"<

Man, you've obviously never worked tech support to Joe User. The average computer user, much less a basic PDA owner, puts files wherever seems good at the moment, then can never find their stuff again because they don't remember which "New Folder (insert number here)" they left it in. You can have easy access to the files on a PalmOS based PDA by using Filez or McFile, or any of a number of similar utilities.

>"'Hey, I'll take that file to home. I'll upload it to my Palm's 64 Mb internal RAM. Mhm, wait a moment, I forgot the retarded OS. May I install Palm Desktop, please? Hey, don't laugh!' (ah, if I could make you feel how P A I N F U L was to realize that the shiny, SD capable, $300+ T3 simply would not double as a flash drive...)"<

Oh, please. This is why most have SD cards anyway, but let's play along with your scenario. Just how many documents/files could you fit into your little PDA before you couldn't use it for it's primary purpose any longer? Not many, and that's why this point is, well, pointless.


>"3b) Why did your beloved Sony add that program that lets you use Clies as USB drives?"<

Ok, now your ignorance is showing. Yes, the Clie gets converted to a USB drive....that writes to the MEMORY STICK, NOT the internal RAM. Hell, you can do this with a PalmOne PDA too, with a little program called Card Export. Better yet, just buy a USB card reader. The data transfer is much faster with them, and voila! You now can set up all the folders your petty little heart desires. Hell, most newer computers have the card readers pre-installed.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
Wollombi @ 5/5/2004 7:58:12 PM #
>" Every time I see a post from you I get an image of a short, obese, unmarried 50-something year old guy (like the guy in the "Lone Gunman" group on the X-Files) pecking away in a dingy basement apartment littered with old pizza boxes in a New York tenament."<

Wasn't that already proven to be YOUR image in that picture. Yeah, it was.

Hey, Mike doesn't always make sense, but at least he's CONSISTENT, unlike yourself, who contradicts himself with every other post.

I really don't understand your obsession with Mr. Mike Cane. Perhaps you should see a psychiatrist regarding your abnormal obsessive behaviours.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

Again on filesystem and RAM contents (Wollambi)
Winter_ @ 5/6/2004 11:49:15 AM #
I'm sorry but I'll repeat "my scenario" :P
I have a device with 50Mb RAM free. (I have 60 but I'll just reserve 10 for proper PDA use, you know :P). I want to put some files there, just to take them home. Or to hear 50 Mb worth of MP3; I have entire albums that use less space.
Why can't I?

You say "You can't put much there" : true, I should be able to just put 50 Mb there. Why can't I?
That's about 34 diskettes. Enough to store Win95 there.
Why can't I, again?

You say "some Joe User will forgot where did he put his folder". So, the rest of us is banned to use folders?

Now let's play your game. Imagine we can put files on the FLAT internal filesystem; forget about folders. That way, since there are NO FOLDERS, Joe User would always find his file.
So, why can't we put a simple JPG on there?

Ok, now your ignorance is showing.
So does your eager stupidity. :P. Is everybody here like Facey?
I KNOW "Card Export" does just that: EXPORT the CARD. And I ASSUMED that's what the CLIE's app does, because (1) Card Export makers say that both apps do the same, and (2) PalmOS can't put arbitrary files on the internal filesystem anyway.
And if you read my post carefully, you'll see I mentioned RAM Card, so you could have filled the missing gaps - if any.

just buy a USB card reader
My question was: is it justifiable that Palm owners have to be warned to BUY any third party apps or devices just because Palm forgot some obvious functionality?
For a regular user, that is a pain. But having the guts to sell Palm devices as MP3 players with all these quirks, is SADISTIC. Imagine the face of Joe User when he sees that, after 1 hour (oh my God), he has managed to upload 5 or 6 albums to his card - but they have gone into a huge messy heap, since there are no folders. What should he do? Get Filez, start making folders and moving each file where it belongs? (SLOW). Or just make playlists? Imagine when he later wants to upload a new folder. Will he have to hunt for the new songs on that nasty Audio folder? Yes, he will.
So nasty.

Winter + Wollombi = Dumb + Dumber?
;-(( @ 5/6/2004 10:37:06 PM #
Ironic seeing a post from Wollombi on top of a post from that clown, Winter. Virgin on the ridiculous.

Frosty: Your last post lost you any remaining sympathy for your tragic plight and shows everyone how lame your arguments are. First of all, you'll have people believe you bought a 64 MB Palm and want to leave 50 MB of RAM free to transport files and listen to MP3. I'd be surprised to hear there are even five other people that own Palms that think the way you do. (I use the word "think" generously in describing what you do.)

Buy a $400 PDA to transport 50 MB of files. Yeah. Right. How about a $20 card reader and an $80 256 MB SD card? And guess what? With the card reader you can put folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders so you can finally be at peace with your troubled soul.

Use RAM to store MP3? Another of your intelligent ideas. Joe Sixpack might be able to put 30 minutes of adequately-encoded music on their 32 MB Palm. That is, assuming they don't bother loading silly things like contacts, memos, to do lists and applications onto their uber-MP3 players. You must be a rocket surgeon in you day job.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
Wollombi @ 5/7/2004 12:42:44 AM #
>"I have a device with 50Mb RAM free. (I have 60 but I'll just reserve 10 for proper PDA use, you know :P)"<

LOL! Nice repartee. =)


>"You say "some Joe User will forgot where did he put his folder". So, the rest of us is banned to use folders?

Now let's play your game. Imagine we can put files on the FLAT internal filesystem; forget about folders. That way, since there are NO FOLDERS, Joe User would always find his file.
So, why can't we put a simple JPG on there?"<

Both good points. I generally use the SD card (256MB) for hierarchical folders when I want them, and I use it as my "file transport" in tandem with a 256MB USB key. This generally gives all the space I need, but that is my scenario, not yours. I only suggest it as something I've tried that seems to be effective.

As far as putting a simple JPG on there. I agree with you! You should be able to put your files in there, even if it's only ones that are usable on the PDA, such as JPGs, Word files, etc. One of the things about Docs to Go that bugs me is when you move or save a "native" word doc to the handheld's memory, it still gets converted to a .pdb file. Kind of makes native processing pointless. Aside from that, it's a great program.


>"So does your eager stupidity. :P. Is everybody here like Facey?"<

Touche! =) I admit my harshness. I guess when I posted I was already a bit spun up. No, I'm not "Facey". Far from it. Just having a bad day when I posted. Please accept my apology for the insult.


>"My question was: is it justifiable that Palm owners have to be warned to BUY any third party apps or devices just because Palm forgot some obvious functionality?
For a regular user, that is a pain. But having the guts to sell Palm devices as MP3 players with all these quirks, is SADISTIC. Imagine the face of Joe User when he sees that, after 1 hour (oh my God), he has managed to upload 5 or 6 albums to his card - but they have gone into a huge messy heap, since there are no folders. What should he do? Get Filez, start making folders and moving each file where it belongs? (SLOW). Or just make playlists? Imagine when he later wants to upload a new folder. Will he have to hunt for the new songs on that nasty Audio folder? Yes, he will."<

Again, good points, and a justifiable complaint. I didn't get impacted by this specific scenario because my usage habits already included a card reader (MUCH faster than using Hotsync to upload MP3 files and the like, and faster than using Filez to move things around on the card) and McFile, which more than meets my needs. Honestly, while I do appreciate the MP3 functionality (enough to purchase Aeroplayer), it really had no bearing on the choice of PDA that I purchased. I had already found what for me are viable workarounds with earlier PDA's such as the Handera 330 or the Clie T615 (my first and last Sonly model) for the rest. So yes, I do see and understand where you're coming from. I've just been solution oriented with perceived shortcomings of Palm OS devices. They have still served my needs better than any PPC could.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RAM, card, ram cards, filesystem...
Winter_ @ 5/7/2004 6:08:04 AM #
Both good points. I generally use the SD card (256MB) for hierarchical folders when I want them, and I use it as my "file transport" in tandem with a 256MB USB key. This generally gives all the space I need, but that is my scenario, not yours. I only suggest it as something I've tried that seems to be effective.

I just find painful having to carry everywhere 2 devices with (potentially) duplicated functionality. If the T3 has the space and the connectivity I need, why should I need a new device to fill the mindless gap? I just can't understand it.

As far as putting a simple JPG on there. I agree with you! You should be able to put your files in there, even if it's only ones that are usable on the PDA, such as JPGs, Word files, etc. One of the things about Docs to Go that bugs me is when you move or save a "native" word doc to the handheld's memory, it still gets converted to a .pdb file. Kind of makes native processing pointless. Aside from that, it's a great program.

That was EXACTLY my point. Thanks, thanks, thanks, man. This was getting so frustrating.

Please accept my apology for the insult.

Fully accepted, and issue forgotten.

Again, good points, and a justifiable complaint. I didn't get impacted by this specific scenario because my usage habits already included a card reader (MUCH faster than using Hotsync to upload MP3 files and the like, and faster than using Filez to move things around on the card) and McFile, which more than meets my needs.

That's in fact another of my (already stated) points: why is Hotsync THAT slow? It's incredible.

I do have a card reader, but it feels stupid having to take the card from one device to the other just to upload things. I can't even just forget about the USB cradle because I still need it for regular hotsync! To me it just screams "ridiculous". The process that should be one step takes 3 or 4.

To further complicate the issue, I'm a bit USB-port-limited right now (yes, I already have a USB hub), and it's NOT nice having to unplug the cradle, plug the reader, switch the card between devices, upload/download, switch card. (to be nit-pickingly fair you still need to count to plug again the cradle so you won't have to do it next time :P).

I could correct that buying another USB hub. But then let me recapitulate the whole situation:

Let's say a prospective Palm user plans to hear MP3 on the device. He doesn't plan to own (right now?) a memory card, since 60 Mb is plenty for lots of things. As a quick example, ALL albums in my Pink Floyd MP3 collection would fit quite comfortably in 60 Mb (they average at 40) - except for The Wall (double album), wich needs 70. I compressed a bit crappily my The Cure collection at (a bit) less than 128kbps, so they still need less space per album, but that's OK because I hear the music on noisy environments (the street, the subway, even on the bike). Furthermore, I have some crappy "teach yourself whatever language" recordings converted to MP3 that I plan to try sometime, and they compress nicely at much lesser bitrates. SO: 60 Mb, even 50, should be PLENTY of space.

The prospective Palm user is simply HOSED. Period. He can't use a powerful piece of hardware as is the T3 like that because there's no facility on the OS to store files on the device internal free RAM.

He is advised to buy an SD card (at the risk of leaving the internal RAM unused). And surely he will also need to get some file moving application, because Hotsync will just drop the file on the assigned folder. So after the slow Hotsync, he will have to wait for the slow file moving; hopefully he will do it while still plugged to the cradle, to avoid the useless battery depleting. So the hotsync process gets converted into a PAIN. Try to do all of this in the morning before leaving home; should I wake up half an hour earlier to do it all? (well, in fact 30 minutes is too little to move 2 albums to the card, and forget about later reordering >:( )

So our prospective Palm user is advised also to get an USB card reader. And perhaps also an USB hub to accomodate the two new devices (cradle and reader). With a bit of bad luck, that will really mean a powered hub, because as you know the USB bus has some power limits, and mine is already maxed out. So the desk ends up with the cradle (and its power brick), the reader, the new hub and its power brick. Isn't that nice?

(I mentioned that the internal RAM can be left unused; as an example I'm creatively filling up the T3 RAM with all kinds of trashy sharewares and still 10 megs are here laughing at me. Should I start to put there still more useless PDFs and web dumps?)
And I guess that the advantage of not having to feed an SD card with the T3's limited battery shouldn't be ignored.

Of course, you can just get (buy, pay for) Card Export (still beta) to make the Palm work as a drive (hats off here to Sony for their Clie application). But that still leaves the internal RAM quietly laughing. Funny having to buy, pay for external RAM while leaving the internal RAM idle.

And then I can just get (buy, pay for) Ram Card to finally tame that internal RAM; but the app doesn't feel like the most solid thing in this world (strange problems on Hotsync sometimes, GUI sometimes unresponsive, always activated on reset even if I deactivated it before, not updated since 2002...). And then I have to impose random limits to the RAM usage: this is card, that is normal RAM. Hey, I thought that was regarded as a disadvantage for PPCs... :P


Honestly, while I do appreciate the MP3 functionality (enough to purchase Aeroplayer), it really had no bearing on the choice of PDA that I purchased. I had already found what for me are viable workarounds with earlier PDA's such as the Handera 330 or the Clie T615 (my first and last Sonly model) for the rest. So yes, I do see and understand where you're coming from. I've just been solution oriented with perceived shortcomings of Palm OS devices. They have still served my needs better than any PPC could.

I won't buy a PPC for MP3 or otherwise - unless I can get Linux on it :P. Or unless I'm forced to because I need some vital functionality - like Java will be soon for me. :(

But I won't buy another Palm - nor recommend them light-heartedly. I'll have to tell people that they are NOT getting a breath-taking 400 MHz, 64 Mb RAM, 480x320 device - they're just getting a Palm OS device with a number of random, unimaginable quirks.

Facey chokes with RAM uses?
Winter_ @ 5/7/2004 7:14:10 AM #
Virgin on the ridiculous.
No, you're not. XD

Frosty: Your last post lost you any remaining sympathy for your tragic plight and shows everyone how lame your arguments are. First of all, you'll have people believe you bought a 64 MB Palm and want to leave 50 MB of RAM free to transport files and listen to MP3. I'd be surprised to hear there are even five other people that own Palms that think the way you do. (I use the word "think" generously in describing what you do.)

1) Why does exactly PalmRAMDisk exists for? Do you mean no one uses it? And what about MediaManager? And Card Export?
1b) Why some photo viewing apps use a desktop app to convert STANDARD JPGs into nasty PDBs? Is that all nice and good? And, do you mean there is no demand for those RAM installable PDBs?

2) Dark Side of the Moon (Pink Floyd), as an average example (for my collection at least), weights in at less than 40 Mb (and looks like a good average). So I still coud put that in RAM and leave 20 Mb free - more than the Tungsten T had.

3) Your crystal ball continues to amaze me. Thanks for telling me how "people" feels and how many people uses whatever.

I'll try to chew an example that you can understand. Imagine you want to take A SINGLE JPG, just 50 kb in size, into your PDA, assuming you have one. Why would you do that? Well, you can then m4sturbate away from your computer. But, guess what? You can't do it easily with a Palm OS device, even if you have 1, 2 or 60 Mb free. You need to do stupid things. Imagine: you have a JPG image; JPG is a standard. In fact your photo viewer app in the PDA understands standard JPG. BUT, you just can't put there the JPG. You can't. Period. It's "easier" and "more user-friendly" to BUY a new app that installs a DESKTOP APP that will CONVERT the standard JPG into a non-standard PDB that ONLY THEN can be slowly hotsync'ed to the PDA.
Or you can buy an SD card, yeah. You always fix things paying for extras. That's user-friendliness.
Palm* should include some notice on their advertisements and boxes warning that you NEED SD cards for the functionality they advertise - shouldn't they?

Buy a $400 PDA to transport 50 MB of files. Yeah. Right.

No, this $400 PDA can't do that.
Not even 1 Kb of files.

How about a $20 card reader and an $80 256 MB SD card? And guess what? With the card reader you can put folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders inside folders so you can finally be at peace with your troubled soul.

What should I do then with the unused internal RAM? Can I trade it for an external card or something?

Use RAM to store MP3? Another of your intelligent ideas. Joe Sixpack might be able to put 30 minutes of adequately-encoded music on their 32 MB Palm.

He won't be able to put even a 5 Mb, 5 minutes favourite on that Palm.
He won't be able either to put there a 1 hour MP3 encoded language course, even if it can compress to less than 32 Mb. (mono sound, 22 Khz or even less: MUCH LESS than 128 kbps). Even less with ogg-vorbis instead of MP3.

That is, assuming they don't bother loading silly things like contacts, memos, to do lists and applications onto their uber-MP3 players.

So Palm enforces the use of their 32 Mb PDA as just an agenda. What a waste.

Let's reserve 2 Mb for contacts, memos, to do lists.
Let's reserve 10 Mb for applications.
Why can't I use the remaining 22 Mb? There have been MP3 players with less memory, if I remember correctly.

HOWEVER, what If I want to just reserve 1 Mb for contacts and whatever and have the rest as a MP3 player?
And what if I just hotsync to backup everything so I can restore it later, then hard reset the device and fill the memory to the brim with MP3s just because today is my day off and just wanna hear this particular album all day long? Is that unholy for Palm*? Why CAN'T I?

You must be a rocket surgeon in you day job.

Ah, the unmistakable Favourite Freak Facey F(r)iend style. (I have another classical F word to put there, but I like the ring it has right now XD)

I guess PPC advocates don't really know all of this. If they did, half of the time they spend advocating they would just be laughing at Palm.

RE: Screw US, Palm? Then screw YOU!
RhinoSteve @ 5/9/2004 2:45:07 PM #
"Guardians of PalmOS"? You're too funny. Every time I see a post from you I get an image of a short, obese, unmarried 50-something year old guy

Well if you want to see that, just hang out in any computer store for an extendeded period of time and they glob around bitching and moaning. Sad sacks for sure. But hey, most of the time, these guys put themselves there and they have no one to blame but themselves.


Utter nonsense.

;-o @ 5/3/2004 2:19:22 PM #
"The decline in Palm OS market share in the first quarter of 2004 is not unexpected because many Palm OS users have delayed PDA purchases until they can evaluate PalmSource's upcoming operating system Cobalt,"

Nonsense. How many people even know what version OS is on their current Palms? Probably less than 1%.

The decline happened because the demand for PDAs is drying up, Palm is having problems with quality control, prices are too high and most of Palm's new PDAs lack any "killer" features that would make corrent PDA users want to upgrade.


RE: Utter nonsense.
Winter_ @ 5/3/2004 2:55:52 PM #
ROTFWL!!!!

You certainly have a poor opinion on Palm users. They don't know what a folder is, they don't know what OS they're running. Ha. Are those opinions extrapolable to other PDA users? Like, say, PPCs?

Back to the subject... Personally, we delayed the buy of a T3 about 2 months to see what happened with OS 6 - and Mac OS support. (And the main reason to finally get the T3 was that Linux still wasn't available for the PPC's I were eyeing).
Seeing the results, we suspended indefinitely 2 other buys. (one of them is now a PPC)

RE: Utter nonsense.
;-o @ 5/3/2004 4:11:39 PM #
You certainly have a poor opinion on Palm users. They don't know what a folder is, they don't know what OS they're running. Ha. Are those opinions extrapolable to other PDA users? Like, say, PPCs?

Not poor, just honest. Remember, most Palm users don't read fanboy sites like Palminfocenter. They buy their "Palm-thingie" at Wal-Mart or Staples, or receive it as a gift and it either gets used as a glorified address book or ends up relegated to the back of a drawer. If the OS is essentially invisible to users and apps are backward-compatible, why should Joe Average give a rat's arse what version of PalmOS he's got? Most people wouldn't even know how to check their OS version.

I'm a power user, but if I never added a single app to my Palm, it would still be an incredibly useful tool. Palm nailed the design from Day 1 - something they still don't seem to get enough credit for.

PPC victims are no smarter or dumber than PalmOS users. More likely they either received their devices at work or were taken in by the glitzy hardware and better pricing. Had they done their homework they all would have bought PalmOS devices...

Back to the subject... Personally, we delayed the buy of a T3 about 2 months to see what happened with OS 6 - and Mac OS support. (And the main reason to finally get the T3 was that Linux still wasn't available for the PPC's I were eyeing).
Seeing the results, we suspended indefinitely 2 other buys. (one of them is now a PPC)

Your situation does not reflect the greater market. You wanted Linux? That alone qualifies you a a fringe player. You should have been patient and waited for the new Sonys. Your loss...


Utter nonsense - you bet
Winter_ @ 5/4/2004 5:55:44 AM #

Not poor, just honest.

You have any Palm owners' IQ statistics? (Try looking again at your crystal ball - if you still haven't exceeded your download limits XD)

You sound like "it's not my fault they're so dumb"

Remember, most Palm users don't read fanboy sites like Palminfocenter.

And that's why they don't know what a "version number" is, and that a higher version number is A Good Thing (TM).
(Surely that's also why they don't know what a folder is, but that's off-topic here :P)

They buy their "Palm-thingie" at Wal-Mart or Staples, or receive it as a gift and it either gets used as a glorified address book or ends up relegated to the back of a drawer.

That certainly explains the existence of Tungstens: people buy $300 agenda-thingies to glorify them before relegating them to the drawer. Everybody knows that.

If the OS is essentially invisible to users and apps are backward-compatible, why should Joe Average give a rat's arse what version of PalmOS he's got? Most people wouldn't even know how to check their OS version.

So you suppose that people uses apps... interesting!
Well, last time I visited PalmGear, every app listed its OS requirements. And I've seen no one complaining they don't understand why OS 5 apps don't work on OS 4 devices.

I'm a power user, but if I never added a single app to my Palm, it would still be an incredibly useful tool.

You don't have a post OS 1 device, do you? Because you don't need anything newer than that to do that.
I'd LOVE to see you trying to say that looking straight into my eyes.
(and if you managed to, I'd laugh you out of existance)

Palm nailed the design from Day 1 - something they still don't seem to get enough credit for.

What they don't get credit for is for letting the design get THIS stale. Erm, I think I'm not the first weirdo ever to say that - was I?

PPC victims are no smarter or dumber than PalmOS users. More likely they either received their devices at work or were taken in by the glitzy hardware and better pricing. Had they done their homework they all would have bought PalmOS devices...

Yeah, after the homework they would have got a device where you don't need to install new apps to get an incredibly useful tool. (C) Facey Research VLtd. (Very Limited - in case you didn't get that XD)

Pity is, they surely got spoiled by the spectrum of (useless) choice they have. Did you know that monsters like MAME got (easily) ported to PPC time ago? They can even install a full new OS if they feel like. Even that useless Java, the weirdos. What were they thinking? Perhaps that a device with globs of RAM, a 400 MHz processor and such and such is after all almost (gosh!) like a tiny computer??. Someone should tell them that PDAs are just agendas - to be glorified at most!! Those people are unholy!!

I feel you're exactly the kind of PR disgrace that Palm* would pay to get shot down. XD
Perhaps you're after all a PPC supporter in disguise? Oh my God, where did I put that tinfoil cap??

Your situation does not reflect the greater market.

You mean Palm's market is all OK and good and assured right now?

You wanted Linux? That alone qualifies you a a fringe player.

I don't WANT Linux - in fact I'm still a newbie there. I just want a non-crippling OS. I find INCREDIBLE that the only option seems to be the FREE linux.

You know, I'd LOVE to treat the T3 as if it was a 400MHz, 64 Mb, $300+ device. Pity Palm* won't allow me.

You should have been patient and waited for the new Sonys. Your loss...

I won't buy a MemoryStick device. I'm that sick.

Please, someone tell me there's other people here that does not think like this genius. Perhaps I should just shut up and let him have his party. This feels so futile. Yes, it's funny, but..... :P

RE: Utter nonsense.
;-(( @ 5/5/2004 11:02:48 PM #
If this was not true, Michael Mace would have been all over this post like white on rice.

But it is true. And so the Michael Mace Watch continues.

No one's heard from him in a week. I wonder if everything's ok...

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

Paranoi-o-rama
Winter_ @ 5/6/2004 11:51:05 AM #
He's right now studying your every movement... He'll chase you when you least expect it, so he can resume his iron fist government of everything PalmOS without interference from the Wise One.

Be very, very afraid.

Latest Treo 600 sales figures:

;-o @ 5/3/2004 5:18:22 PM #
62,500 = 7.5% of shipped devices (and 15% of profits). Not bad performance. And expected to reach 10% of devices/20 - 25% of profits this quarter.

Quite shocking, actually. But this reflects plummeting PDA sales more than acceptance of smartphones overall.

RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
Rome @ 5/4/2004 12:06:32 AM #
Would you care to provide the source of your data?

RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
;-o @ 5/4/2004 4:23:50 AM #
Palm.

RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
Rome @ 5/4/2004 3:51:50 PM #
Would you mind sharing the link with us? Or was it something that someone at PalmOne told you confidentially?



RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
;-o @ 5/4/2004 9:22:35 PM #
Palm no longer gives out that information to the general public for reasons I'll leave you to figure out for yourself.

I suppose you want their telephone # and email address so you can confirm this? Get serious. Take everything your read here with a large grain of salt and believe who you think is credible. SeldomVisitor has made a hobby out of fishing at Palm sites for this kind of info, so I won't be spoon feeding him anything else. Of course, I could also just be an 11 year old kid typing FUD from Mommy's computer...


Dear Lord, please bless the Caneman and Boy Blunder. Please keep them safe from harm.


RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
Rome @ 5/4/2004 10:52:03 PM #
Thanks. You have just lost your credibility, not that you had much to begin with.

RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
Wollombi @ 5/5/2004 8:01:40 PM #
This guy used to be ";-)", until that name suddenly became silent. I'm making an educated guess, due to some of the more recent comments, that that username was banned due to statements like the one above. His comments before consisted mainly of personal attacks, inflammatory remarks, baseless assertions, and tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

I see little has changed besides the handle.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
Gekko @ 5/6/2004 12:08:31 PM #
our company just bought 200+ Treo 600's.



RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
;-(( @ 5/7/2004 1:10:28 AM #
Sales in the hundreds + thousands to companies are what Handspring (and nw Palm) were too slow to focus on. It's now too late to recover from this miscalculation. Palm simply lacks the resources to engineer advances into heir smartphone hardware fast enough to compete. All they have going for them is the app library. If Microsoft can build a slick interface between Exchange and the Microsoft smartphones, guess who the IT buyers will automatically choose?

Palm's Coalition Of The Willing (Seven, shoestring startup Good Technology, etc.) will be crushed overnight. Even Blackberry must be wetting their pants wondering when Microsoft will finally get PPC and its smartphone edition right. PPC is junk now and it's already landing heavy body blows on bruised-up Palm. This fight won't last much longer - just ask Netscape. (You remember Netscape, don't you?)

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
;-(( @ 5/7/2004 1:10:28 AM #
Sales in the hundreds + thousands to companies are what Handspring (and now Palm) were too slow to focus on. It's now too late to recover from this miscalculation. Palm simply lacks the resources to engineer advances into their smartphone hardware fast enough to compete. All they have going for them is the app library. If Microsoft can build a slick interface between Exchange and the Microsoft smartphones, guess who the IT buyers will automatically choose?

Palm's Coalition Of The Willing (Seven, shoestring startup Good Technology, etc.) will be crushed overnight. Even Blackberry must be wetting their pants wondering when Microsoft will finally get PPC and its smartphone edition right. PPC is junk now and it's already landing heavy body blows on bruised-up Palm. This fight won't last much longer - just ask Netscape. (You remember Netscape, don't you?)

By the way, are those Treos GSM or CDMA? And are they mainly for data? Treo 600s make crappy phones. You'll see soon enough if their quality control issues are sorted out yet. Palm T3 (with custom flashed RAM, preconfigured/locked in Bluetooth settings, TealLock and BackupMan) + Sony Ericsson T630 Bluetooth phones would probably have made a better solution if GSM reception is adequate in your neck of the woods. We bought a number of CDMA (Sprint) Bluetooth T610 phones in January and appreciate the flexibility separates offer.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
Rome @ 5/7/2004 6:12:46 PM #
I wonder who invented the PC as we know it today. Didn't that company have a lot of money, engineers, and other resources? Didn't they get their act together and build a brand new OS called OS2 that was supposed to destroy the little Remond, WA startup's OS?

I wonder how that company is doing in the PC market these days......darn, can't think of the name of that company now.

I've Been Moved.

RE: Latest Treo 600 sales figures:
;-o @ 5/8/2004 12:13:22 AM #
Correction:


We bought a number of CDMA (Sprint) Bluetooth T608 phones in January and appreciate the flexibility separates offer.


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