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Comments on: Treo 600 in Short Supply

palmOne CEO Todd Bradley in a recent interview has said that sales of the Treo 600 smartphone are strong, and that the company is currently dealing with a parts shortage.
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No "newer" Treo

Sonic Boom @ 5/13/2004 11:35:49 AM #
So does this mean there will not be a newer version of the 600 in the near future (i.e. with Bluetooth, better screen resolution, etc.)?

RE: No
dona83 @ 5/13/2004 11:42:43 AM #
Notice how it only seems to be us PICers who are complaining about these lack of things. Including me. :) The business people bought it because it is very functional, the geeks bought it because it's a very good phone. PalmOne almost got it perfectly right, just add bluetooth and hi-res, keep it at $600CAD with 2 yr contract and i'll buy one.

RE: No
dona83 @ 5/13/2004 11:45:34 AM #
Ah yes, a minimum 313mhz Intel XScale processor would be an added bonus *hint hint*

RE: No
helf @ 5/13/2004 7:45:25 PM #
Why xscale? The new TI chips are much better... :)

RE: No
Sonic Boom @ 5/14/2004 6:12:37 AM #
But still no answer to the main question:
"So does this mean there will not be a newer version of the 600 in the near?"

RE: No
Sonic Boom @ 5/14/2004 6:12:37 AM #
But still no answer to the main question:
"So does this mean there will not be a newer version of the 600 in the near future?"

RE: No
Calroth @ 5/15/2004 1:49:22 AM #
PalmOne has little reason to introduce a new version of the Treo whilst demand is outstripping supply for the current version.

please run out of those lo-res screens!

yOyOYoo @ 5/13/2004 12:28:25 PM #
I hope Palmone runs out of those lo-resolution screens and finally decides to put out a hi-res Treo.

RE: please run out of those lo-res screens!
hkklife @ 5/13/2004 12:34:17 PM #
Unlikely, since the new "good but not as good as the original Handspring Treo 600 screen" that seems to be in the newest PalmOne branded T600s is nearly (or IS, according to some reports) the same screen as found on the Zire 32. That one's gonna be around for a looong time. I'd just like to see them standardize on one screen for the T600, drop the price by $150, and then come out with a 610 that's high-res. BT would be nice but not critical. High-res is a must. Faster CPU would be nice but that'd kill the CPU when coupled with 320*320. Oh yeah...tell Verizon to hurry up and release a Treo of SOME kind!!! ;-)

RE: please run out of those lo-res screens!
james_sorenson @ 5/13/2004 12:42:54 PM #
I'll compromise. Don't REALLY need the bluetooth, though it would be nice for the printer. Don't REALLY need the faster processor, since that would eat batteries, and I've been surviving this long with my pokey Tungsten|W. Don't REALLY need to reduce the price, because I'm determined enough to fork out a little extra cash if it has what I want.

But, let's get that hi-rez screen on there, okay? Seriously, have you guys even TRIED Docs-To-Go on a 160x160 screen? It's like using my computer while peering through a keyhole! Browse the web on 160x160? It is truly painful. And don't get me started on viewing the picture quality after taking a snapshot: it's just shameful.

I'm glad the Treo600 is selling, but you are losing a good chunk of the market. I'm betting there are quite a few PPC Smartphone owners strictly because the screen looked soooooo good in the store. Presentation sells.

Any day now, PalmOne, any day now.

- Jim

-------
James Sorenson

RE: please run out of those lo-res screens!
Louis Berk @ 5/13/2004 12:54:56 PM #
Docs-to-go? Yes, all the time. The biggest limitation is the software not the Treo 600, imho.

RE: please run out of those lo-res screens!
smap77 @ 5/13/2004 3:16:07 PM #
I'll just as soon pick up a refurbished Visor as buy a "smart" phone with 160x160 screen. Palm? Hello? are you listening?

RE: please run out of those lo-res screens!
tooele @ 5/13/2004 7:50:37 PM #
I agree who wants to pay $450 for a phone that has an outdated screen. If palm would just add bluetooth and a better screen this would be an awsome phone. I would pay the extra money gladly.

RE: please run out of those lo-res screens!
HiWire @ 5/14/2004 1:20:41 PM #
I'm still running DocstoGo 5 on my m505. In my opinion, there's not much reason to upgrade at this resolution; the new features are mostly wasted.

Palm m505 User

I bought one and not looked back

Louis Berk @ 5/13/2004 12:44:42 PM #
Doesn't surprise me.... I;ve forgotten the exact marketing term for it but the Treo is a product which has raised the bar for all other PDA and phone manufacturers.

Just like iPOD.

Both products have pretty much made existing convergence technology and portable audio technology obsolete, overnight.

As to the carp about the phone resolution. I swapped my T|T for the Treo (literally, I sold the T|T on E-bay the week I got the Treo) and I can honestly say that the smaller size and lower resolution has made little practical difference.

I'm still taking notes (using Graphiti Anywhere), reviewing documents, playing Klondike and using PowerOne much as I always did with the T|T.

However, having my e-mail delivered automatically (I subscribe to GPRS) and the ability to IM with anyone, anywhere (all without the fuss and bother of mating phone with PDA) is a liberating experience.

I'm about to start using it to manage my teaching workload and it will be interesting to see how it fares in that respect.

Louis

RE: I bought one and not looked back
epetrack @ 5/13/2004 1:28:10 PM #
I wonder if/how this might affect the upcoming (hopefully!) rollout of the Treo on Verizon...
RE: I bought one and not looked back
stepshows @ 5/13/2004 4:21:28 PM #
Does the Sprint Treo work on analog networks. Or is it digital only, like Nextel?



Aric Tucker
Stepshows.com

RE: I bought one and not looked back
hkklife @ 5/13/2004 5:31:31 PM #
Digital only. AFAIK, analog's realllllly being phased out, especially by everyone who is not Verizon. I wouldn't anticipate seeing any more "new" phones released after the end of '04 with analog support. What the dismantling of the analog infrastructure will do to all of those Onstar & TeleAid systems built into many new luxury cars of the past 4 years, I have no idea...folks in the automotive biz like to try and steer around that particular question, however.



T-Mobile 10 Day Backorder

riverbruce @ 5/13/2004 5:58:34 PM #
No wonder I'm having to wait for my replacement from T-Mobile. My touchscreen went belly up and I was told there was a 10 day backorder and then another 5 days for shipping. Fifteen days without my 600.... it's agony.

"Up the creek...Try the River!"
www.riverontheweb.com
RE: T-Mobile 10 Day Backorder
Felipe @ 5/13/2004 7:31:21 PM #
was at yankee stadium today and the guy stitting next to me, after seeing my 600, said that he wants one put cant find it. the store are always out.

:)



Sent my Treo Back

Gekko @ 5/14/2004 9:46:45 AM #
Was using a little Nokia and a T3 and tried to switch to one device - Treo 600. In the end, I couldn't deal with switching to a vastly inferior phone and vastly inferior PDA so I sent the Treo 600 back.

Part shortage?

RhinoSteve @ 5/14/2004 3:53:32 PM #
This is intersting. A strip down of the Treo 600 was posted on the net a while ago. What really suprised me was the volume of specialized parts other than the standard custom injection mold.

While they do have a winner here, they really went beyond typical handheld systems engineering to make this work.

In a way, this is a good indicator that they are out of stock. I guess this makes more demand for the alleged Treo 610.

But then, is there an electronics parts broker sitting on some sweet, now high margin stock?

Just as I thought....

vesther @ 5/15/2004 12:05:54 AM #
I hope PalmOne will revert back to using higher-quality parts that won't break or tear that easy.....

Furthermore, I hope that PalmOne won't carry over the cruel "Quality Control Plague" over future Treos....

Most importantly, I'm hoping that the Treos are going to be reliable...

A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.

Will PocketPC finally overtake PalmOS in 2004?

;-(( @ 5/16/2004 10:56:35 AM #
First of all, these oft-repeated stories about Treo 600 being in short supply are meaningless without cold, hard numbers. What's the sellthrough? If Palm shipped 80,000 phones last quarter and the demand was 81,000 is that a better situation than shipping 160,000 for a demand of 160,000? Enough with the fluff press releases, already. (Apologies to Michael Mace.)

It's starting to look like we're at a turning point here. After years of mistakes, subsidizing an inferior OS and countless promises, PPC is on the verge of passing PalmOS in sales. When that happens, will we see the same pattern we did with Netscape - where Microsoft's competition simply implodes - or will it be more like the Quicken vs. Microsoft Money war, where two evenly matched warriors continue to duke it out year after year until they begin looking identical to each other? I suspect the latter scenario is more likely - Palm's installed user base is just too large for the platform to disappear overnight. That is, unless PPC comes up with a killer app like integrated wireless TV reception. (Imagine a baby iPaq with dual SD slots, Bluetooth, 802.11b and capable of receiving TV broadcasts at much higher framerates than Sprint's MobiTV. http://www.mobitv.com/ That's the kind of paradigm shift that could kill Palm overnight.)

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: Will wonders never cease?
Winter_ @ 5/17/2004 3:51:55 AM #
Always a surprise.

Facey asking about cold, hard numbers? THAT was funny.

And then asking for integrated TV receiving?? HAHAHAHA! That coming from the guy that said that Palm OS devices were (and should be) no more than glorified agendas!!!!

Oh, man...

If you want some talkin' here, why don't you start answering some of those questions I asked you? The most recently renewed one was about how easy it is to program for Palm OS... :D

RE: Will PocketPC finally overtake PalmOS in 2004?
;-o @ 5/17/2004 4:25:44 AM #
Frosty, Frosty, Frosty... You remind me of the yappy puppy pleading for attention. Will my response finally validate your unfortunate existence? I'll reply because I care. I really do.

And then asking for integrated TV receiving?? HAHAHAHA! That coming from the guy that said that Palm OS devices were (and should be) no more than glorified agendas!!!!

It appears that your reading skills are somewhat limited. Hopefully someday you'll go back to school to get edumacated. First of all, I was discussing PPC (not Palm) adding wireless TV. Secondly, I never stated Palm OS devices should only be "no more than glorified agendas". That is how they're frequently used, though and Palm needs to keep this in mind.

If you want some talkin' here, why don't you start answering some of those questions I asked you? The most recently renewed one was about how easy it is to program for Palm OS... :D

http://www.pdatoolbox.com/

With this, anyone (even you) should be able to create a PalmGear-ready app within a few hours. Which is precisely why over 95% of Palm apps are horrible. Then pick up Palm OS Programming Bible and perhaps Palm OS Programming: The Developer's Guide.

And suddenly, Frosty shut up, realizing that once again he had put his foot firmly into his mouth...






You like me! You really like me!

No, they will never cease.
Winter_ @ 5/17/2004 11:30:24 AM #
You still don't get it. (the strange thing is... I am not surprised XD)

Once again, you want me to PAY for some stupid failure caused by Palm. But of course, it surely is my fault. Palm did absolutely everything right. It's me who is wanting my hardware to work instead of just being a glorified agenda.

Take a loot at PDAtoolbox features:
http://www.pdatoolbox.com/body_features.html

There you'll find pearls like "Full Edit Menu (cut/copy/paste/etc)".
That's EXCITING. Woo-hoo.

Some time ago I asked you to take your head out of your a55. Please, do so now. And consider the landscape:
Quake, the FPS game, was ported to PocketPC on 2001.
( http://quake.pocketmatrix.com/ )
MAME, the Multi Arcade Machine Emulator, was ported to PocketPC on 2001.
( http://www.mameworld.net/mamece3/ )
There were DivX players for PocketPC ported on 2002
( http://www.projectmayo.com/projects/detail.php?projectId=9 )

Since then, 3 years have passed.
And Palm OS is still NOT there.
In fact, when some framework (google for that, my man) is ported FROM POCKETPC TO PALM OS, looks like we should throw a party.

Welcome to the real world, Neo.

My question is: while I toy away with your PDAtoolbox (oh, look how I displayed a text field), perhaps I could be doing something serious in "some other PDA OS" with some standard tool/language?

Perhaps it's easy to program some sh*tty thing on the Palm OS (though paying for thingies like PDAtoolbox???). The problem is, perhaps doing some REAL PROGRAMMING on PPC is just as easy. If not easier, that is.

SO: You said that programming for the Palm OS was easier. Now, can you support that with something cold and hard?
(no, your brain will not do)
XD

(as a side note: there are a number of FREE RAD (Rapid Application Development) tools for Java. They can be used to Rapidly Develop Applications for any platform with a (decent) Java VM. Alas, Palm OS does not have a decent Java VM. Therefore, on the Palm OS you have to pay for toys like PDAtoolbox to substitute the free Tools used in the civilization.)

Note once more that I have little hard data and no first hand experience on all of this. I'm just making (what I assume to be) educated guesses. But certainly you seem to be totally ignorant on the subject- and dangerously so (for Palm* at least). Perhaps you should learn to swallow back those half munched things you throw up so easily on here?
Unless you can back them up, of course. I'm still waiting! But I just won't be holding my breath. Heh.

Poor Frosty. Beech slapped so often he/she's confused...
;-o @ 5/17/2004 1:15:15 PM #
You still don't get it. (the strange thing is... I am not surprised XD)

Once again, you want me to PAY for some stupid failure caused by Palm. But of course, it surely is my fault. Palm did absolutely everything right. It's me who is wanting my hardware to work instead of just being a glorified agenda.

So is it also Palm's fault that you've never had a date? Or that you don't have any friends? People like you love to kick the dog. Yes, Palm has once again victimized poor, defenceless Frosty. So sad.

Take a loot at PDAtoolbox features:
http://www.pdatoolbox.com/body_features.html

There you'll find pearls like "Full Edit Menu (cut/copy/paste/etc)".
That's EXCITING. Woo-hoo.

You asked for proof of how easy it is to program for PalmOS and you were given it. With a little creativity, PDAToolbox can actually make decent apps. Of course you can't accept that you were again wrong about PalmOS programming, so you resort to attacking PDAToolbox. Great debating skills, Frosty. Maybe you should get your Mommy to step in for you here.

Some time ago I asked you to take your head out of your a55. Please, do so now. And consider the landscape:
Quake, the FPS game, was ported to PocketPC on 2001.
( http://quake.pocketmatrix.com/ )
MAME, the Multi Arcade Machine Emulator, was ported to PocketPC on 2001.
( http://www.mameworld.net/mamece3/ )
There were DivX players for PocketPC ported on 2002
( http://www.projectmayo.com/projects/detail.php?projectId=9 )

http://mmplayer.com/

http://store.tapwave.com/product.asp?sku=2440476 And no doubt your precious Quake will be soon to follow...

http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=106

Perhaps if you removed your head from your arse (and washed your messy little face) you could post more intelligent comments here.

Since then, 3 years have passed.
And Palm OS is still NOT there.
In fact, when some framework (google for that, my man) is ported FROM POCKETPC TO PALM OS, looks like we should throw a party.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Appparently not. To the amusement of thousands around the world reading your "insightful" commentary.

Welcome to the real world, Neo.

I think there's a glitch in your system, Frosty.

My question is: while I toy away with your PDAtoolbox (oh, look how I displayed a text field), perhaps I could be doing something serious in "some other PDA OS" with some standard tool/language?

Are you at all familiar with ANY PalmOS development tools? The books I suggested for you earlier are a start. Then sign up as a developer at Palm. I know you need to be led by the hand, so I'll make it simple for you.

CLICK HERE: http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools/

Two regular posters here at PIC (Ben Combee, formerly at Metrowerks and Aaron Ardiri, who helps maintain PilRC) must be laughing their heads off at you right now. You might want to stop posting here before you do further damage to the revered Frosty family name.


Perhaps it's easy to program some sh*tty thing on the Palm OS (though paying for thingies like PDAtoolbox???). The problem is, perhaps doing some REAL PROGRAMMING on PPC is just as easy. If not easier, that is.

PDAToolbox costs $25. Wow. 25 whole dollars. Of course you'll say: "What! It's not free! Why didn't Palm provide this for free! Waaaaa! Waaaaa! Waaaaa!" If you're aware of any PPC apps that allow a complete novice (like you) to create a stable, useful app in a few hours, I'd be interested in hearing about it. So would Microsoft - they could need the help in creating stable, useful PPC apps...

SO: You said that programming for the Palm OS was easier. Now, can you support that with something cold and hard?
(no, your brain will not do)
XD

You have been led to the water, Grasshopper. Now drink. And put your bottle of PPC Kool-Aid down.

(as a side note: there are a number of FREE RAD (Rapid Application Development) tools for Java. They can be used to Rapidly Develop Applications for any platform with a (decent) Java VM. Alas, Palm OS does not have a decent Java VM. Therefore, on the Palm OS you have to pay for toys like PDAtoolbox to substitute the free Tools used in the civilization.)

Your obsession with JAVA is starting to get creepy. JAVA is not a realistic option on PalmOS and it is not needed. Of course you'll keep whining about the lack of JAVA because all of your arguments have already been lost. There are tools available (and others coming) that will facilitate porting programs to PalmOS. Wake up and look around. You might learn something.

Note once more that I have little hard data and no first hand experience on all of this. I'm just making (what I assume to be) educated guesses.

It was already obvious to everyone that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. But thanks for admitting it.




You like me! You really like me!

Wow, Facey
Winter_ @ 5/17/2004 1:17:06 PM #
Look at this.
http://www.windowsfordevices.com/articles/AT3563056498.html

Just take a quick look at it. I don't expect you to understand what it means, don't worry.

(...)
I've been trying to explain what GCC is (it's Linux's compiler) and what this means, but hey, you won't get it and will however say that PocketPC's are a joke, so... never mind. Just find someone who likes Palms, and who knows what Linux is, and tell her/him that GCC runs on the PocketPC's Windows (not Linux!). Look at her/his face. And you'll understand.

The funny thing is, I must thank you. I wouldn't have found this if you were not the freak you are. Thanks, man.

(Now, if I had thought that this was even POSSIBLE before buying this damned T3... well, time to learn how eBay works, I guess :P )

RE: Will PocketPC finally overtake PalmOS in 2004?
abosco @ 5/17/2004 2:51:16 PM #
There are actually two applications that do this for Palm OS, both freeware, which program in the subset of C that is compatible with the Palm OS. This isn't a Windows-only thing. I remember ska bringing this up a long time ago and my retort was the links to the Palm apps. Try a few searches - one is on PalmGear, I remember.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
NO, there's no equivalent for PalmOS
Winter_ @ 5/17/2004 3:11:25 PM #
Abosco, I guess you're talking about PocketC (which is not freeware) and OnBoardC (open source).

PocketC is NOT standard C, and you have to pay.

OnBoardC is NOT standard C, and looks like it demonstrates the OS limits - look at the FAQ.

If there is another "on board" compiler, please share.

On the other hand, GCC supports standard C AND C++ (and some other flavors).
You say it is not a Windows thing. Of course it isn't - it also runs on Linux. The point is, it is a non-PalmOS thing.
I noted it works on Windows because this means that you can get a number of functionalities that you needed Linux for - but now you don't have to install Linux!

I just thought that with a bit of luck you could even develop Palm OS programs on a PocketPC. I think that you can even run them with the Palm emulator (only up to Palm OS 4). Meanwhile, Palm OS has - what?

You say the subject popped up long time ago. This particular project started 6 months ago... and I think it changes a whole lot of things.

Facey's "Palm OS developing on 0 easy steps"
Winter_ @ 5/17/2004 8:13:49 PM #

So is it also Palm's fault that you've never had a date? Or that you don't have any friends? People like you love to kick the dog. Yes, Palm has once again victimized poor, defenceless Frosty. So sad.

No, they're just guilty of letting the Palm OS getting too fscking incredibly long in the teeth.
Or, to put it another way: they have not evolved it for much too long.
I already said some time ago that Palm OS looks OK, even smart, for older or small devices. I have no complaints for things like the m125 or the first Zire. But, having something like the T3 with Palm OS 5 is pi-ty-ful.

However, how did you know that I love to kick the dog? (*chuckle*)

You asked for proof of how easy it is to program for PalmOS and you were given it.

No, I was given a paid-for environment that makes easier to make little calendars. Or do you mean that I could make a Quake clone with your paid-for PDAToolbox?


With a little creativity, PDAToolbox can actually make decent apps.

LOL!
With a little creativity, we can actually make decent apps with a bare processor, a battery and some wires. But that is not the point, is it?

Of course you can't accept that you were again wrong about PalmOS programming, so you resort to attacking PDAToolbox.

Hey, it was you who tried to pass PDAToolbox as the answer to developing problems on PalmOS.
And I'm telling you that PDAtoolbox is only a proof that the Palm OS panorama looks somewhat ugly.

http://mmplayer.com/
That was written for Palm OS, wasn't it?
I'm sorry, I forgot I have to explain every single concept that pops up in the "conversation".
Remember I talked about "porting"? Imagine you have some program on your desktop computer. You find it useful. You think: "it would be useful to use this program on the PDA". You JUST recompile the SAME code, possibly with few MINOR changes, and voilą: the program is running on the PDA.

That's what is happening with PocketPC. That's why they had an open source, free DivX player 2 years ago. That's why they have MAME, and have had it for 3 years now. And on, and on, and on.

Peruse http://ppc.palmopensource.com/
...and then look at the Palm OS link on the left column. Go there and compare the offers. You can get Apache for PocketPC (a whole nasty web server on your PDA, for Goth's sake). And then you can get some calculators for Palm OS.

If Palm OS used reasonably standard "programming" (APIs, language), porting would be immediate.
If they don't do so, they could at least take profit of some architecture that lets them be compatible with other things. Like, say, Java.
If they don't do that either, then, well... heh.

http://store.tapwave.com/product.asp?sku=2440476

Doom II??? HAH!
What a beautiful way of making MY point.
Doom (I and II) was a 2D (2'5) game (2D maps, characters were sprites). Quake was a totally 3D game (maps and characters). It totally superseded Doom, which was from the same company, Id Software.
So, Palm OS today is only capable of playing Doom II.
PocketPC was able to play Quake 3 years ago.
That's sums up to a delay of, like, 5 years?

Will you brag about Quake for Palm OS when they manage to port Halo for PocketPC? :D
(hey, funny... both from Micro$oft... be afraid, be VERY afraid...)

http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=106

C'mon, should I look for some page listing all the emulators available for PPC?
Well, what the heck. You want pain, you have pain.
http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=102
Please, be sure to scroll down to the end of the list, because it's LONG.
About 70 emulators, against the 35 for Palm.
Oh, and note that the PocketPC can emulate Palm OS 4. You know, it's just a port away.
Heh.

Can you realize that a platform with no easy porting CAN NOT COMPETE with an easily-ported-to one? You just can't win. It's YOU against EVERYONE ELSE.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Appparently not. To the amusement of thousands around the world reading your "insightful" commentary.

Wrong? Perhaps you didn't read the newspiece here on PIC? Don't worry, here you have it.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6640
Now tell me: does it talk about a PocketPC framework ported to Palm OS? I thought so.

Are you at all familiar with ANY PalmOS development tools? The books I suggested for you earlier are a start. Then sign up as a developer at Palm. I know you need to be led by the hand, so I'll make it simple for you.
CLICK HERE: http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools/

So much talk to say nothing.
Let's go back again to the subject. Is programming for PalmOS easier than for PocketPC?

Two regular posters here at PIC (Ben Combee, formerly at Metrowerks and Aaron Ardiri, who helps maintain PilRC) must be laughing their heads off at you right now.

I'll try to ask them in my next post, because I'm sincerely interested on the subject. It's funny to laugh at you, but that's not my only motivation, you know. But don't be sad. (while we're at it, you should not talk on their behalf, don't you think? oh, I forgot about your crystal ball).

Hopefully they'll be able to shed some light on the subject. I have already stated my little knowledge, so I'm sure to study whatever they say. The thing is, what will you say if they answered something that you don't like?

PDAToolbox costs $25. Wow. 25 whole dollars. Of course you'll say: "What! It's not free! Why didn't Palm provide this for free! Waaaaa! Waaaaa! Waaaaa!" If you're aware of any PPC apps that allow a complete novice (like you) to create a stable, useful app in a few hours, I'd be interested in hearing about it. So would Microsoft - they could need the help in creating stable, useful PPC apps...

GCC. It's free and open source. It not only makes text fields and menu bars like your $25 PDAtoolbox, it builds entire OSes. And it's used also by Palm*, look at the last link I provided.
The difference is, not long ago you had to use it on the desktop computer to compile. But now, you can take it with you on the PDA. If you use a PocketPC, that is.


Your obsession with JAVA is starting to get creepy. JAVA is not a realistic option on PalmOS

Well, it is a realistic option on PocketPC. Like so many other things.

and it is not needed.

When you start postulating, why don't you start with something like "I postulate : "? That way, we will be able to just filter the grosser BS from your posts.

There are tools available (and others coming) that will facilitate porting programs to PalmOS.

And when you start predicting the future, say "I predict :". Please.
However, is that prediction as good as the one you made about the Palm SD Bluetooth drivers for OS 5 being available before this summer? :D

It was already obvious to everyone that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. But thanks for admitting it.

Funny how you keep referring to everyone to try to make your point stronger. Do you feel alone?

You keep asking me about my experience with Palm developing. Well, you were the one to bring up the subject, do you remember? And since then I'm trying to make you explain your cold, hard data. Since you don't, I am forced to educate myself. Please help if you can. Though, up to now, the results are being pretty interesting. Heh.

I have already stated my starting point, my collected data and my thought process, so anyone can pinpoint what is wrong.
Could you do the same? I'm still waiting, and I'm still not holding my breath.

I have another question: have you EVER compiled anything? :)

Combee, Ardiri, Palm programmers: please answer
Winter_ @ 5/17/2004 8:27:32 PM #
Here's some "debate" about the apparent lack of porting to Palm OS.
MAME, Quake, XViD players, even GCC have all been ported to PocketPC; but they all are missing (or at best specially rewritten) on the Palm OS.
Can you confirm or deny this, and give some explanation why it could be so?
My hypothesis is that Palm OS 5 is still too limited to handle such things. Could that be correct?
Even farther: I know (some?) PocketPCs received some heat because they were advertised as 32 bit machines because the processor in fact was 32 bit capable - but the board was only 16 bit capable. Such a thing could explain some perceived limitations on the Palm OS 5, like the use of a CLCD JVM on hardware that should too easily exceed CDC JVM capabilities. Can you say anything about this?

If you can't talk about any of the subjects, please just say so.

Thank you very much.

RE: Will PocketPC finally overtake PalmOS in 2004?
abosco @ 5/17/2004 11:55:37 PM #
>>So, Palm OS today is only capable of playing Doom II.
PocketPC was able to play Quake 3 years ago.
That's sums up to a delay of, like, 5 years?

Umm, no, it's just that finally now someone decided to port it. All this time, nobody really saw the need. It wasn't like PalmSource was losing marketshare by the gallons, and then suddenly they port Doom and it's all better. Besides - Quake on the PPC gets boring after ten minutes.

PPC finally broke the 10% marketshare barrier two years ago. They were supposed to do it in 1997. That's a delay of what, five years? They had to do what to break that barrier? Introduce low-cost entry-level models that people could afford? You mean the EXACT strategy PalmSource had been using? You don't say.

ATARI 2600 HAS BEEN PORTED TO PALM OS AND IT ISN'T AVAILABLE FOR PPC SO THAT MEANS PPC MUST HAVE HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE LIMITATIONS THAT PREVENT IT FROM PLAYING THE EMULATOR BECAUSE IT'S A HORRIBLE OS RIGHT???

Umm, no, it's just that nobody has ported it yet.

http://yoyofr92.free.fr/ljz/index.html

He seems to be porting a lot of systems to that one app. Looks pretty good, but still, I don't give a damn about emulators.

I don't know why you people constantly bother with these issues - ESPECIALLY emulators. I've never seen the value of emulators. Well, I take that back. I did enjoy a 30-second game of Sonic on the Gamegear demo, but after that it got tired and old seeing as how the game was already beaten to death ten years before.

And Xvid? All the movies I download are kept on my HD, not my Palm. Native movie formats are crucial if it's something that is likely to get emailed to you on the road like an AVI or MPEG file. The Palm OS can play these. Who the hell cares about Xvid except the Matrix nerds who pirate movies and call themselves Razor as they fatten up on TV dinners, calculating when their exact date of suicide should be from leading such a pathetic life? No, I'm absolutely serious.

>>Oh, and note that the PocketPC can emulate Palm OS 4. You know, it's just a port away. Heh.

And you know it's completely illegal, and that the use of that software makes you subject to copyright laws? Heh.

PPC users put up with alarms not firing and system slowdowns due to a registry, while Palm users put up with the lofty challenge of getting Xvid to play natively. Oh, what ever shall PalmSource do? They are definitely doomed without MAME. Microsoft needs to get the basics working right, first. Until then, it's just an entertainment medium, not a useful tool. What the hell good is a PDA if it's more unreliable than I am?

Yawn. You'll have to read up on both systems before you can make an argument that doesn't sound like the ancient, "YEAH BUT I CANT PLAY QUAKE ON YOUR STOOPID POS LOL!!! POS WHAT A GOOD NAME FOR SUCH A POS!!!!" Trust me, think twice before you decide to step. I think I've got a little more experience on the topic (actually a lot).

Last point - you mention Java. The Java environments have been ported to PalmOne Tungstens and the Treo 600, which has sprung up the ability to use any J2ME app on the Treo 600, including a few awesome browsers.

I've waited for so long for someone to actually come up with a good, worthwhile, definitive reason as to why the PPC is better than Palm. I have NEVER heard a solid answer. Never. Want one for Palm? The basic features of what a PDA is supposed to do - datebook, addressbook, text entry, and all vital application data JUST WORKS. It always works without fail, and the user can put 100% faith and reliability in the system. You can never do that with an OS that you would rather soft reset to clear the memory than to enter Start | Programs | Memory | Running programs | End All to do a simple task of speeding up the system from applications you had running ten minutes ago.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

Abosco: The subject was "developing" :P
Winter_ @ 5/18/2004 3:31:36 AM #
Abosco, you seem to confuse the subject. Facey said: "it's easier to program for Palm OS" [than for PocketPC]. I tried to find if there was any truth to that, and found that actually seems to be the other way round. If you can contribute anything, please do so.
But you seem to think that I'm defending that PocketPCs are "better". No, I'm not doing so. Though I certainly think they are not as hindered as Palm OS 5 devices.

(before we start, let me remind you that you talked about 2 freeware compilers to be used on the very PDA; I answered you and asked for more info, since I couldn't confirm that. Will you answer?)


Umm, no, it's just that finally now someone decided to port it. All this time, nobody really saw the need. It wasn't like PalmSource was losing marketshare by the gallons, and then suddenly they port Doom and it's all better. Besides - Quake on the PPC gets boring after ten minutes.

I have not talked about how we all need Quake. I (we) "talked" about easyness to develop, and certainly comparing the fact of Quake being ported 3 years ago vs. Doom being ported now... well, seems to support my hypothesis.

PPC finally broke the 10% marketshare barrier two years ago. They were supposed to do it in 1997. That's a delay of what, five years? They had to do what to break that barrier? Introduce low-cost entry-level models that people could afford? You mean the EXACT strategy PalmSource had been using? You don't say.

I don't even know what this has to do with the subject. Please explain.
What are you defending against? And, why? :P

ATARI 2600 HAS BEEN PORTED TO PALM OS AND IT ISN'T AVAILABLE FOR PPC SO THAT MEANS PPC MUST HAVE HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE LIMITATIONS THAT PREVENT IT FROM PLAYING THE EMULATOR BECAUSE IT'S A HORRIBLE OS RIGHT???

Umm, no, it's just that nobody has ported it yet.

This gets absurd.
Please, point out some serious software that have been developed on both platforms so we can compare "merits" in whatever coarse way. Ports seem to be a good candidate, since they should be little more than a recompile from existing, possibly complex -though standard- code.
And that's where clearly Palm OS is quite lacking, which makes me suspect about its capabilities as an OS or its limits in the developing resources camp.
Can you contribute anything?

If not, please calm down and step aside. Or just talk to Facey.

http://yoyofr92.free.fr/ljz/index.html

He seems to be porting a lot of systems to that one app. Looks pretty good, but still, I don't give a damn about emulators.

In fact, neither do I. Give me a serious compiler or a serious Python (Palm's port stopped at 1.5 while they're at 2.3; PocketPC's is at 2.2), and let's forget about emulators. Or, this gets boring, just some serious Java, please. OK?


And Xvid? All the movies I download are kept on my HD, not my Palm. Native movie formats are crucial if it's something that is likely to get emailed to you on the road like an AVI or MPEG file. The Palm OS can play these. Who the hell cares about Xvid except the Matrix nerds who pirate movies and call themselves Razor as they fatten up on TV dinners, calculating when their exact date of suicide should be from leading such a pathetic life? No, I'm absolutely serious.

You sound too much like Facey.
Again, what are you defending against? :P
Palm can play them? Nice. The problem is, PocketPC could do it 2 years ago as a simple recompile of existing open source code, and so the player is free. Meanwhile, a player has had to be specifically written for Palm OS. So: which platform sounds "easier to develop for"?

About XviD: Will you like it better if I call it "a MPEG4 reference implementation"?
And, we need MPEG4 because we're working on a streaming video app. The XviD libraries were PORTED to PocketPC with no problems.

And you know it's completely illegal, and that the use of that software makes you subject to copyright laws? Heh.

What? You mean it's illegal to use the Palm* provided emulator's SOURCE CODE with the Palm* provided ROMs (or my T3's ROM) to develop on whatever platform I feel like?
Please point out were did you get that idea from. :P


PPC users put up with alarms not firing and system slowdowns due to a registry, while Palm users put up with the lofty challenge of getting Xvid to play natively. Oh, what ever shall PalmSource do? They are definitely doomed without MAME. Microsoft needs to get the basics working right, first. Until then, it's just an entertainment medium, not a useful tool.

Funny and nice. Now, can we get back to the subject?

What the hell good is a PDA if it's more unreliable than I am?

What the hell good is a T3-class device if it is little more capable than some lowly-Zire-class device?
Seems to me that Palm OS capabilities get saturated pretty soon; certainly before you reach the T3.


Yawn. You'll have to read up on both systems before you can make an argument that doesn't sound like the ancient, "YEAH BUT I CANT PLAY QUAKE ON YOUR STOOPID POS LOL!!! POS WHAT A GOOD NAME FOR SUCH A POS!!!!" Trust me, think twice before you decide to step. I think I've got a little more experience on the topic (actually a lot).

Too much like Facey. If you want to talk, stop being stupid.


Last point - you mention Java. The Java environments have been ported to PalmOne Tungstens and the Treo 600, which has sprung up the ability to use any J2ME app on the Treo 600, including a few awesome browsers.

If you have read any of my other posts, you'll know that the existing JVMs for Palm are CLDC ones: that is, they were designed for 16 bits machines with about 400 KB of RAM. And so they are severely limited.
On the other hand, CDC JVMs were designed for 32 bit machines with more than 2 MB of RAM, and they are quite closer to a desktop JVM. Clearly, almost all OS 5 devices should be enough for CDC. But Palm* only offers CLDC JVMs. My question is: why?
At least you seem to accept that Java "could be useful" :P.

I've waited for so long for someone to actually come up with a good, worthwhile, definitive reason as to why the PPC is better than Palm.

You'll have to keep waiting, since that was not the subject and anyway PocketPCs (with Windows at least) are not my liking. :P
Can we get back to the subject?

I have NEVER heard a solid answer. Never. Want one for Palm? The basic features of what a PDA is supposed to do - datebook, addressbook, text entry, and all vital application data JUST WORKS. It always works without fail, and the user can put 100% faith and reliability in the system. You can never do that with an OS that you would rather soft reset to clear the memory than to enter Start | Programs | Memory | Running programs | End All to do a simple task of speeding up the system from applications you had running ten minutes ago.

Nothing to do with the subject again - and so, quite zealotish. It's incredible how the original subject put you into defcon 1.

However, you could be talking about a Palm OS 3 device, or a original Zire-class device. In that light, can you explain the existence of the T3s and the like?
I asked the same thing to Facey and never answered. Like always.

RE: Will PocketPC finally overtake PalmOS in 2004?
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 4:10:06 AM #
Frosty. Frosty. Frosty. Have you yet read the books I instructed you to review, Grasshopper? No? I guess that explains the continued ravings seen from you here.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: Will PocketPC finally overtake PalmOS in 2004?
bcombee @ 6/9/2004 10:23:43 AM #
Palm OS 5 is an embedded operating system that supports a fixed set of threads and processes and provides a user API that's very similar to what was provided in Palm OS 4. There is no standard C library, and the VFS file system isn't always there; this makes it difficult to port software written for a standard desktop model. It doesn't mean that the capabilities aren't there, its just that a significant amount of code would have to change or a major porting layer would have to be written and tested to port these apps.

IMO, Tapwave has done a great job of solving a lot of these problems, but their solutions require OS tweaks that only exist on their devices.

There are also some system services which don't exist on Palm OS 5 that can be really useful. For example, there's no API that works on every device to give you precise timing. This can cause problems for porting of media software; it can still be done, but it takes more effort for the software developer.

Now, I'm not saying all of these differences are bad. I think of the the advantages that Palm OS has had is that since every application requires some tweaking to work on the device, it gives developers an incentive to follow standard Palm OS UI and consider how running on a handheld with its limited screen size and low battery life is different than running on a desktop system.

One of the reasons for PalmSource to develop Palm OS Cobalt was to fix a lot of these issues in an elegant way, making the system a more suitable host for ported software. I hope we've succeeded, but we won't know until devices show up on the market (and that's a topic I can't touch with a ten-foot-pole!)

--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog

RE: Will PocketPC finally overtake PalmOS in 2004?
Winter_ @ 6/9/2004 3:31:40 PM #
Once more, thank you very much! That covers some of the remaining gaps.

Again, the situation reminds me of that of Mac OS pre-OS X... where some capabilities just weren't there, and some were but implied a significant effort to adapt from other OSes. I find interesting that you say that this handicap can sometimes be an advantage; that was also the case with Mac OS classic: the software that did get ported, usually was excellent, and took advantage of the unique characteristics of the Mac. But at the same time less and less software got ported, as it was too much of a hassle... and so it was more and more cornered.

As a not-entirely-unrelated side note: Mac OS classic had no protected memory nor preemptive multitasking - and yet, it usually felt more solid (for moderate use anyway) than any Windows 95 / 98 I've had to cope with. That could surely be explained only because of better coding from Mac developers... after all, a bad bug on a Windows 9X program could (only, supposedly) mean a dying app, but generally meant a whole collapsing system on the Mac! So of course they needed to get rid of bugs.


Well, here's one then waiting for OS 6 to pop up...
...and to come for current owners! :P

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