Comments on: Treo 600 in Short Supply

But, let's get that hi-rez screen on there, okay? Seriously, have you guys even TRIED Docs-To-Go on a 160x160 screen? It's like using my computer while peering through a keyhole! Browse the web on 160x160? It is truly painful. And don't get me started on viewing the picture quality after taking a snapshot: it's just shameful.

I'm glad the Treo600 is selling, but you are losing a good chunk of the market. I'm betting there are quite a few PPC Smartphone owners strictly because the screen looked soooooo good in the store. Presentation sells.

Any day now, PalmOne, any day now.

- Jim

-------
James Sorenson

:)

And then asking for integrated TV receiving?? HAHAHAHA! That coming from the guy that said that Palm OS devices were (and should be) no more than glorified agendas!!!!

It appears that your reading skills are somewhat limited. Hopefully someday you'll go back to school to get edumacated. First of all, I was discussing PPC (not Palm) adding wireless TV. Secondly, I never stated Palm OS devices should only be "no more than glorified agendas". That is how they're frequently used, though and Palm needs to keep this in mind.

If you want some talkin' here, why don't you start answering some of those questions I asked you? The most recently renewed one was about how easy it is to program for Palm OS... :D

http://www.pdatoolbox.com/

With this, anyone (even you) should be able to create a PalmGear-ready app within a few hours. Which is precisely why over 95% of Palm apps are horrible. Then pick up Palm OS Programming Bible and perhaps Palm OS Programming: The Developer's Guide.

And suddenly, Frosty shut up, realizing that once again he had put his foot firmly into his mouth...

You like me! You really like me!

Once again, you want me to PAY for some stupid failure caused by Palm. But of course, it surely is my fault. Palm did absolutely everything right. It's me who is wanting my hardware to work instead of just being a glorified agenda.

So is it also Palm's fault that you've never had a date? Or that you don't have any friends? People like you love to kick the dog. Yes, Palm has once again victimized poor, defenceless Frosty. So sad.

Take a loot at PDAtoolbox features:
http://www.pdatoolbox.com/body_features.html

There you'll find pearls like "Full Edit Menu (cut/copy/paste/etc)".
That's EXCITING. Woo-hoo.

You asked for proof of how easy it is to program for PalmOS and you were given it. With a little creativity, PDAToolbox can actually make decent apps. Of course you can't accept that you were again wrong about PalmOS programming, so you resort to attacking PDAToolbox. Great debating skills, Frosty. Maybe you should get your Mommy to step in for you here.

Some time ago I asked you to take your head out of your a55. Please, do so now. And consider the landscape:
Quake, the FPS game, was ported to PocketPC on 2001.
( http://quake.pocketmatrix.com/ )
MAME, the Multi Arcade Machine Emulator, was ported to PocketPC on 2001.
( http://www.mameworld.net/mamece3/ )
There were DivX players for PocketPC ported on 2002
( http://www.projectmayo.com/projects/detail.php?projectId=9 )

http://mmplayer.com/

http://store.tapwave.com/product.asp?sku=2440476 And no doubt your precious Quake will be soon to follow...

http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=106

Perhaps if you removed your head from your arse (and washed your messy little face) you could post more intelligent comments here.

Since then, 3 years have passed.
And Palm OS is still NOT there.
In fact, when some framework (google for that, my man) is ported FROM POCKETPC TO PALM OS, looks like we should throw a party.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Appparently not. To the amusement of thousands around the world reading your "insightful" commentary.

Welcome to the real world, Neo.

I think there's a glitch in your system, Frosty.

My question is: while I toy away with your PDAtoolbox (oh, look how I displayed a text field), perhaps I could be doing something serious in "some other PDA OS" with some standard tool/language?

Are you at all familiar with ANY PalmOS development tools? The books I suggested for you earlier are a start. Then sign up as a developer at Palm. I know you need to be led by the hand, so I'll make it simple for you.

CLICK HERE: http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools/

Two regular posters here at PIC (Ben Combee, formerly at Metrowerks and Aaron Ardiri, who helps maintain PilRC) must be laughing their heads off at you right now. You might want to stop posting here before you do further damage to the revered Frosty family name.

Perhaps it's easy to program some sh*tty thing on the Palm OS (though paying for thingies like PDAtoolbox???). The problem is, perhaps doing some REAL PROGRAMMING on PPC is just as easy. If not easier, that is.

PDAToolbox costs $25. Wow. 25 whole dollars. Of course you'll say: "What! It's not free! Why didn't Palm provide this for free! Waaaaa! Waaaaa! Waaaaa!" If you're aware of any PPC apps that allow a complete novice (like you) to create a stable, useful app in a few hours, I'd be interested in hearing about it. So would Microsoft - they could need the help in creating stable, useful PPC apps...

SO: You said that programming for the Palm OS was easier. Now, can you support that with something cold and hard?
(no, your brain will not do)
XD

You have been led to the water, Grasshopper. Now drink. And put your bottle of PPC Kool-Aid down.

(as a side note: there are a number of FREE RAD (Rapid Application Development) tools for Java. They can be used to Rapidly Develop Applications for any platform with a (decent) Java VM. Alas, Palm OS does not have a decent Java VM. Therefore, on the Palm OS you have to pay for toys like PDAtoolbox to substitute the free Tools used in the civilization.)

Your obsession with JAVA is starting to get creepy. JAVA is not a realistic option on PalmOS and it is not needed. Of course you'll keep whining about the lack of JAVA because all of your arguments have already been lost. There are tools available (and others coming) that will facilitate porting programs to PalmOS. Wake up and look around. You might learn something.

Note once more that I have little hard data and no first hand experience on all of this. I'm just making (what I assume to be) educated guesses.

It was already obvious to everyone that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. But thanks for admitting it.

You like me! You really like me!

No, they're just guilty of letting the Palm OS getting too fscking incredibly long in the teeth.
Or, to put it another way: they have not evolved it for much too long.
I already said some time ago that Palm OS looks OK, even smart, for older or small devices. I have no complaints for things like the m125 or the first Zire. But, having something like the T3 with Palm OS 5 is pi-ty-ful.

However, how did you know that I love to kick the dog? (*chuckle*)

You asked for proof of how easy it is to program for PalmOS and you were given it.

No, I was given a paid-for environment that makes easier to make little calendars. Or do you mean that I could make a Quake clone with your paid-for PDAToolbox?

With a little creativity, PDAToolbox can actually make decent apps.

LOL!
With a little creativity, we can actually make decent apps with a bare processor, a battery and some wires. But that is not the point, is it?

Of course you can't accept that you were again wrong about PalmOS programming, so you resort to attacking PDAToolbox.

Hey, it was you who tried to pass PDAToolbox as the answer to developing problems on PalmOS.
And I'm telling you that PDAtoolbox is only a proof that the Palm OS panorama looks somewhat ugly.

http://mmplayer.com/
That was written for Palm OS, wasn't it?
I'm sorry, I forgot I have to explain every single concept that pops up in the "conversation".
Remember I talked about "porting"? Imagine you have some program on your desktop computer. You find it useful. You think: "it would be useful to use this program on the PDA". You JUST recompile the SAME code, possibly with few MINOR changes, and voilà: the program is running on the PDA.

That's what is happening with PocketPC. That's why they had an open source, free DivX player 2 years ago. That's why they have MAME, and have had it for 3 years now. And on, and on, and on.

Peruse http://ppc.palmopensource.com/
...and then look at the Palm OS link on the left column. Go there and compare the offers. You can get Apache for PocketPC (a whole nasty web server on your PDA, for Goth's sake). And then you can get some calculators for Palm OS.

If Palm OS used reasonably standard "programming" (APIs, language), porting would be immediate.
If they don't do so, they could at least take profit of some architecture that lets them be compatible with other things. Like, say, Java.
If they don't do that either, then, well... heh.

http://store.tapwave.com/product.asp?sku=2440476

Doom II??? HAH!
What a beautiful way of making MY point.
Doom (I and II) was a 2D (2'5) game (2D maps, characters were sprites). Quake was a totally 3D game (maps and characters). It totally superseded Doom, which was from the same company, Id Software.
So, Palm OS today is only capable of playing Doom II.
PocketPC was able to play Quake 3 years ago.
That's sums up to a delay of, like, 5 years?

Will you brag about Quake for Palm OS when they manage to port Halo for PocketPC? :D
(hey, funny... both from Micro$oft... be afraid, be VERY afraid...)

http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=106

C'mon, should I look for some page listing all the emulators available for PPC?
Well, what the heck. You want pain, you have pain.
http://www.pdarcade.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=102
Please, be sure to scroll down to the end of the list, because it's LONG.
About 70 emulators, against the 35 for Palm.
Oh, and note that the PocketPC can emulate Palm OS 4. You know, it's just a port away.
Heh.

Can you realize that a platform with no easy porting CAN NOT COMPETE with an easily-ported-to one? You just can't win. It's YOU against EVERYONE ELSE.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Appparently not. To the amusement of thousands around the world reading your "insightful" commentary.

Wrong? Perhaps you didn't read the newspiece here on PIC? Don't worry, here you have it.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6640
Now tell me: does it talk about a PocketPC framework ported to Palm OS? I thought so.

Are you at all familiar with ANY PalmOS development tools? The books I suggested for you earlier are a start. Then sign up as a developer at Palm. I know you need to be led by the hand, so I'll make it simple for you.
CLICK HERE: http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools/

So much talk to say nothing.
Let's go back again to the subject. Is programming for PalmOS easier than for PocketPC?

Two regular posters here at PIC (Ben Combee, formerly at Metrowerks and Aaron Ardiri, who helps maintain PilRC) must be laughing their heads off at you right now.

I'll try to ask them in my next post, because I'm sincerely interested on the subject. It's funny to laugh at you, but that's not my only motivation, you know. But don't be sad. (while we're at it, you should not talk on their behalf, don't you think? oh, I forgot about your crystal ball).

Hopefully they'll be able to shed some light on the subject. I have already stated my little knowledge, so I'm sure to study whatever they say. The thing is, what will you say if they answered something that you don't like?

PDAToolbox costs $25. Wow. 25 whole dollars. Of course you'll say: "What! It's not free! Why didn't Palm provide this for free! Waaaaa! Waaaaa! Waaaaa!" If you're aware of any PPC apps that allow a complete novice (like you) to create a stable, useful app in a few hours, I'd be interested in hearing about it. So would Microsoft - they could need the help in creating stable, useful PPC apps...

GCC. It's free and open source. It not only makes text fields and menu bars like your $25 PDAtoolbox, it builds entire OSes. And it's used also by Palm*, look at the last link I provided.
The difference is, not long ago you had to use it on the desktop computer to compile. But now, you can take it with you on the PDA. If you use a PocketPC, that is.

Your obsession with JAVA is starting to get creepy. JAVA is not a realistic option on PalmOS

Well, it is a realistic option on PocketPC. Like so many other things.

and it is not needed.

When you start postulating, why don't you start with something like "I postulate : "? That way, we will be able to just filter the grosser BS from your posts.

There are tools available (and others coming) that will facilitate porting programs to PalmOS.

And when you start predicting the future, say "I predict :". Please.
However, is that prediction as good as the one you made about the Palm SD Bluetooth drivers for OS 5 being available before this summer? :D

It was already obvious to everyone that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. But thanks for admitting it.

Funny how you keep referring to everyone to try to make your point stronger. Do you feel alone?

You keep asking me about my experience with Palm developing. Well, you were the one to bring up the subject, do you remember? And since then I'm trying to make you explain your cold, hard data. Since you don't, I am forced to educate myself. Please help if you can. Though, up to now, the results are being pretty interesting. Heh.

I have already stated my starting point, my collected data and my thought process, so anyone can pinpoint what is wrong.
Could you do the same? I'm still waiting, and I'm still not holding my breath.

I have another question: have you EVER compiled anything? :)

Umm, no, it's just that finally now someone decided to port it. All this time, nobody really saw the need. It wasn't like PalmSource was losing marketshare by the gallons, and then suddenly they port Doom and it's all better. Besides - Quake on the PPC gets boring after ten minutes.

PPC finally broke the 10% marketshare barrier two years ago. They were supposed to do it in 1997. That's a delay of what, five years? They had to do what to break that barrier? Introduce low-cost entry-level models that people could afford? You mean the EXACT strategy PalmSource had been using? You don't say.

ATARI 2600 HAS BEEN PORTED TO PALM OS AND IT ISN'T AVAILABLE FOR PPC SO THAT MEANS PPC MUST HAVE HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE LIMITATIONS THAT PREVENT IT FROM PLAYING THE EMULATOR BECAUSE IT'S A HORRIBLE OS RIGHT???

Umm, no, it's just that nobody has ported it yet.

http://yoyofr92.free.fr/ljz/index.html

He seems to be porting a lot of systems to that one app. Looks pretty good, but still, I don't give a damn about emulators.

I don't know why you people constantly bother with these issues - ESPECIALLY emulators. I've never seen the value of emulators. Well, I take that back. I did enjoy a 30-second game of Sonic on the Gamegear demo, but after that it got tired and old seeing as how the game was already beaten to death ten years before.

And Xvid? All the movies I download are kept on my HD, not my Palm. Native movie formats are crucial if it's something that is likely to get emailed to you on the road like an AVI or MPEG file. The Palm OS can play these. Who the hell cares about Xvid except the Matrix nerds who pirate movies and call themselves Razor as they fatten up on TV dinners, calculating when their exact date of suicide should be from leading such a pathetic life? No, I'm absolutely serious.

>>Oh, and note that the PocketPC can emulate Palm OS 4. You know, it's just a port away. Heh.

And you know it's completely illegal, and that the use of that software makes you subject to copyright laws? Heh.

PPC users put up with alarms not firing and system slowdowns due to a registry, while Palm users put up with the lofty challenge of getting Xvid to play natively. Oh, what ever shall PalmSource do? They are definitely doomed without MAME. Microsoft needs to get the basics working right, first. Until then, it's just an entertainment medium, not a useful tool. What the hell good is a PDA if it's more unreliable than I am?

Yawn. You'll have to read up on both systems before you can make an argument that doesn't sound like the ancient, "YEAH BUT I CANT PLAY QUAKE ON YOUR STOOPID POS LOL!!! POS WHAT A GOOD NAME FOR SUCH A POS!!!!" Trust me, think twice before you decide to step. I think I've got a little more experience on the topic (actually a lot).

Last point - you mention Java. The Java environments have been ported to PalmOne Tungstens and the Treo 600, which has sprung up the ability to use any J2ME app on the Treo 600, including a few awesome browsers.

I've waited for so long for someone to actually come up with a good, worthwhile, definitive reason as to why the PPC is better than Palm. I have NEVER heard a solid answer. Never. Want one for Palm? The basic features of what a PDA is supposed to do - datebook, addressbook, text entry, and all vital application data JUST WORKS. It always works without fail, and the user can put 100% faith and reliability in the system. You can never do that with an OS that you would rather soft reset to clear the memory than to enter Start | Programs | Memory | Running programs | End All to do a simple task of speeding up the system from applications you had running ten minutes ago.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

Again, the situation reminds me of that of Mac OS pre-OS X... where some capabilities just weren't there, and some were but implied a significant effort to adapt from other OSes. I find interesting that you say that this handicap can sometimes be an advantage; that was also the case with Mac OS classic: the software that did get ported, usually was excellent, and took advantage of the unique characteristics of the Mac. But at the same time less and less software got ported, as it was too much of a hassle... and so it was more and more cornered.

As a not-entirely-unrelated side note: Mac OS classic had no protected memory nor preemptive multitasking - and yet, it usually felt more solid (for moderate use anyway) than any Windows 95 / 98 I've had to cope with. That could surely be explained only because of better coding from Mac developers... after all, a bad bug on a Windows 9X program could (only, supposedly) mean a dying app, but generally meant a whole collapsing system on the Mac! So of course they needed to get rid of bugs.

Well, here's one then waiting for OS 6 to pop up...
...and to come for current owners! :P