MobileInfocenter

Comments on: Sony to Suspend Clie Handheld Line

Sony has divulged that they will not be releasing any new Clie Handhelds products in the coming fall. Sony will be suspending new Clie product development for the US while they reassess the direction of the conventional PDA market.
Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (180 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Comments Closed Comments Closed
This article is no longer accepting new comments.

Down

Bad News

chinchorrero @ 6/1/2004 9:15:49 AM #
Bad News for Palmone.
Cheers

"Life is Too Short"
Tungsten T3-Sony ericsson T610,HBH-60,SanDisk 256Mb Sd Card
RE: Bad News
fridael @ 6/1/2004 9:25:46 AM #
This is bad news for PalmSource, yes, not necessarily for PalmOne. Losing a licensee just prior to introducing a new OS to the market is not exactly good PR. This effectively leaves the PalmOS market to PalmOne. (Not taking into account the smaller licensees like Garmin and TapWave, whose combined market share must be minuscule.)

That said, Sony has been losing market share steadily over the last few years, so this decision doesn't exactly come out of the blue. What *is* surprising is that they've kept releasing new units this long. (The TH55 is not a bad device at all, actually.)

The only way I see Sony coming back in the PalmOS fold is through them releasing OS5-powered SmartPhones. Now that would be a major coup for PalmSource.

There's a well-known marketing law which states that a market will eventually be dominated by two players, and it certainly holds in this case. (I.e. PalmOne and HP.)

RE: Bad News - what?
nrosser @ 6/1/2004 9:35:16 AM #
More like - 'bad news for PalmSource' - wouldn't you say?

RE: Bad News
Foo Fighter @ 6/1/2004 9:49:20 AM #
More than just bad news. You might say it is death blow. We're back to 1996 where only one Palm handheld maker exists. Not counting Tapwave of course because they are subset of the PDA market.

Unless PalmSource can quickly sign on a strong new licensee...Microsoft and it's throng of PPC vendors will fill the void left by Sony, and take a COMMANDING lead in the handheld market.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Bad News
Ben S @ 6/1/2004 9:53:54 AM #
I wouldn't exactly call the PPC makers a "throng". More like "HP and assorted debris".

RE: Bad News
Foo Fighter @ 6/1/2004 9:57:27 AM #
Are you saying Dull...er, I mean Dell doesn't count as a major force? ;-)

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Bad News
Foo Fighter @ 6/1/2004 9:58:42 AM #
Actually that "throng" is going be whittled down a bit as well. I expect Toshiba to exit the market this year as well. So then it will be two against one.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Bad News
LiveFaith @ 6/1/2004 1:55:23 PM #
PSRC taking it on the chin over at the Naz! Down about 15% with an ugly looking chart since the announcement. Uggh.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Bad News
hkklife @ 6/1/2004 3:46:15 PM #
Panasonic seems to be the ONLY hope now for PalmSource to sign on as a new licensee. They could make a line of ruggedized but still consumer friendly (think the yellow Motorola iDen cell phone style) PDAs with dual wireless and good battery life. With their strong support for GPS, it'd be a natural fit. Maybe even a Panasonic Palm OS PDA w/ 2mp digicam and Leica lens??

Apple didn't bother with a Palm/in-house PDA 3 years ago so there's surely no chance of them jumping onboard now. Toshiba might still be an outside shot but they've gotten their noses bloodied once with PPC and they are unlikely to jump onboard again so quickly.

Overall, though, a very bad sign indeed. Now the ball's REALLY in PLMO's court to hit their biggest smash ever with the T4. Now an entire industry's hopes can basically be tagged on this fall's new releases.

RE: Bad News
benamy @ 6/1/2004 7:25:25 PM #
Everyone is forcasting the unknown.

Sony is not the end of PalmSource. PalmOne is so successful because PalmSource has such a successful OS that runs America's most successful connected PDA, the Treo 600.

The question is has Sony been exceeding its minimum royalty payments with its losing marketshare with the Clie line?

The next question is if Sony has not been exceeding its minimum is it still a licensee and what is its minimum and how is PalmSources profitability going to be effected this coming quarter?

The question is how did todays annoucement effects PSRC profitability or did it???????

It is a disappointment the CLIE line is being dropped just as Cobalt is getting ready to surface but why all the doom and gloom about PSRC. HOW IS IT EFFECTED ON A MONEY BASIS??



RE: Bad News
UZI4U182 @ 6/1/2004 9:45:00 PM #
Learn how to read. It's being SUSPENDED, not dropped.

I'd like to add that I think it is REALLY stupid that they;ll continue development in Japan. Sounds like discrimination to me :(

UZI4U182@suscom.net
Main PDA: NX70v + WL100
http://clieflash.shorturl.com

RE: Bad News
abosco @ 6/1/2004 9:51:25 PM #
Know whose fault this is mainly, besides the engineers' focus on features that were unnecessary and unwanted? Fansites that do nothing but praise their products, look at the best side of things, never give light to the bad part of the products, and act like everything is peachy-f'ing-****. The fact is that Sony should have been SCORNED LIKE HELL by all sites like they were here for dropping Bluetooth in many US models. They should have been scolded harder for waiting so long to release a non-clamshell model with HVGA. They should have been urinated all over for keeping with their incredibly slow HHE and miniscule RAM, which couldn't even give the original Pilot 1000 penis envy. I am absolutely furious and thoroughly disgusted with both Sony's R&D department with how they didn't understand the market craved FULLY WORKING DUAL SLOTS, a fast processor, dual wireless, an abundant amount of memory, and acceptable battery life, as well as the same amount of fury and disgust with the sites that praised them (and quite highly, at that, this site not being one of them) for delivering overpriced, underfeatured products. I simply cannot stress enough how annoyed I am with this situation. Absolutely killer for Sony (bad PR to look uncertain), PalmSource (losing almost half your revenue), AND PalmOne (leaving the marketshare to be further divided AGAINST yours, putting you in a position with less consumer and developer support behind the OS you run).

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: Bad News
Puppy @ 6/1/2004 11:19:33 PM #
The main reason I care is that PalmOne's PDAs have HORRIBLE reliability. Just terrible. Besides all the horror stories on any PalmOne forum, I personally have had 5 of the 5 PalmOne PDAs I've purchased fail or become useless. (Luckily 4 of the 5 were screwed up out of the box, so I could return them. My IIIxe's digitizer quit working after about 8 months).

My most recent experience is with a Tungsten E, which has the horrible "humming screen" problem, and randomly shut itself off. As much as I love PalmOS, and abhor WinCE, without Sony around, I may have to take a serious look at WinCE. Unless PalmOne starts looking in to quality control...

RE: Bad News
Puppy @ 6/1/2004 11:26:29 PM #
I should note that I've also owned two Handsprings and three Sony units, all of which worked perfectly (and all but one of which was passed off to a relative and is still in use).

But PalmOne is just a joke. IMO the people who design their hardware have a lot of good ideas, but either the designs just aren't reliable, or they're being built too cheap. It's gotten to the point where Palm's static/USB dying problem on the old M5xx line looks like "the good old days".

RE: Bad News
miner78 @ 6/2/2004 12:41:57 AM #
Darn it. My T/E that I bought only 6 months ago died suddenly and I was looking into getting a Clie. I'm back to my old Visor Deluxe that was retired after 4 years of trouble free service. I don't think I'll get another Palmone device.

RE: Bad News
benamy @ 6/2/2004 10:09:20 AM #
STILL NO ONE HAS ANSWER THE QUESTION OF HOW THIS WILL EFFECT PSRC BOTTOM LINE?!

WAS SONY EXCEEDING ITS MIMIMUM ROYALTY PAYMENT THIS PAST QUARTER?

UZ14U182 scolded me for saying Sony DROPPED the CLIE line because Sony SUSPENDED the CLIE line. Who cares buddy!

The issue is how is this going to effect the heart and soul of the Palm line and the Palm line is the OS that Palmsource makes not the hardware by any company. The only thing that is going to effect the Palm OS is if PSRC can not make at least break even profitability.

So again--How is this going to effect PSRC profits?

Has anyone ever read any information that they can post that shows Sony's licensee agreement. PSRC has quoted portions of PLMO agreement. Does anyone have that info for Sony from PSRC?


RE: Bad News
dona83 @ 6/2/2004 11:40:36 AM #
Note that they're being dropped in the _US_ to reassess and reorganize their game plan on this side of the Pacific. They will still be made in Japan... seems they finally figured that North Americans have different demands in a PDA than the Japanese do, like bigger styluses and bigger and well layed out buttons for our bigger hands. Just like what Toyota, Honda, and Sony-Ericcson's been doing, we're gonna start getting Clie PDAs not sold in Japan.

Donald

RE: Bad News
Puppy @ 6/2/2004 4:44:00 PM #
If they're taking a short break to start coming out with PDAs designed for the US, THAT would rock. Sony's current Clie's are just weird and uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that we'll ever see another Clie in the US.

I'm so tired of all this “smartphone” garbage. To begin with, there aren’t very many “smartphones” sold in the United States. And while in theory it sounds nifty to combine a phone and a PDA, the realtiy so far as stunk. The form factors are just too different. I’d need something that looked and acted like a normal PDA, but was also a phone. So far all the phone/PDA combos are too small to be good PDAs (and usually have keyboards on them), and awkward for phones. On top of that, the prices for the things are hideous. They always cost MORE than a good high-end PDA and high-end phone combined, and aren’t as good as either.


RE: Bad News
Foo Fighter @ 6/2/2004 5:02:19 PM #
Taking a short break? Dear God are you in denial or what? ;-)

Sony isn't just taking a break...they are LEAVING. Would Dell take a break from making PC's until Longhorn arrives?

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Bad News
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 5:19:56 PM #
>>>Taking a short break? Dear God are you in denial or what? ;-)

Be kind. He does not know that when Japanese say "Reassess," they *really* mean "Cut our losses and run like hell."

Stupid Americans think "Hai" means "Yes." Bakkayaro!

RE: Bad News
tooele @ 6/4/2004 11:35:13 AM #
Unless palm source can find a new big company to start buying their os microsoft might win again. I for one don't want to see them win in something else. I have never owned a PPC and don't plan to. I like palm and will continue to buy them.

Told you so!

Foo Fighter @ 6/1/2004 9:30:32 AM #
I predicted this was coming back in October of last year. And I seem to remember a certain person here claiming I was crazy for entertaining such thoughts. Well, I am crazy, of course. But I was right, so here's a big raspberry for you... :P



-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Told you so!
drw @ 6/1/2004 9:41:37 PM #
While not exactly in the "told you so" category, my comments under the "WiFi: PDAs Dirty Little Secret" article yeilded some to call me a troll, which I'm not. I've only owned palmos devices.

When the first clie appeared next to a Palm III, I thought sony was on to something, but nowadays my habits at the pda counter are to check out all the palmone's, then the ipac's, and skip everything else.

My take on sony is that the big shots gave the developers a ton of money saying "here, now put out stuff which will increase our market share". The developers put out "jee whiz" kinda stuff, but not necessarily useful stuff or as elo put it so eloquently: "unusual devices that didn't seem to be targeted at anyone in particular"

So they got whooped by simpler Zire's and thinner iPaq's and now they are leaving with their tails between their legs. They do need to go back to the drawing board, pay a bunch of PhD's to sit on bean bags and conceptualize core realities. Just like they quit the CDMA market because they couldn't compete there either evidently. Before throwing money on a project they should spend more time thinking the thing through and not have for example 3 operating systems going at once (java, symbian, palmos)

---
David

RE: Told you so!
Fat_Man @ 6/2/2004 12:42:37 AM #
Well...

It has been a while since I have posted any remarks, but have been lurking on PIC regularly...

It's sad to see the Clie's go, I had been one of sony's stongest supporter a few years back.

Ahh... those good old days, I used to be very critical of Palm's lack of innovations, and praised Sony on their aggressiveness with their product line. Remember the days?...low-res vs. high-res, mp3 players, color vs. monochrome...

Anyway, I guess where Sony loss me was when they kept the max internal memory at 16 mb's for the longest time and the max memory stick limit of 128mb. I abandoned my clie and switched to the Tungsten C, after Sony annouced the TG, then the NX/NZ series, and finally the UX series with still 16 mb's of internal memory.

KAY

RE: Told you so!
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 5:21:43 PM #
I re-read your Predictions, Foo. You nailed it. Congratulations. Now go away. (Hah!)

RE: Told you so!
Foo Fighter @ 6/3/2004 12:43:15 AM #
Yes, those chicken bones never fail me.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

Dumb move for Sony

NDPTAL85 @ 6/1/2004 9:45:39 AM #
If Sony had decided to make Palm OS Smartphones instead of Symbian based Smartphones then they would own the Smartphone market by now. Dammit why are they doing this?

I know their Symbian phones have been successful but not nearly as successful as Palm Smartphones with a Sony touch could have been.

RE: Dumb move for Sony
mikeemike @ 6/1/2004 9:51:25 AM #
Since Sony owns shares in Symbian through its shared ownership of SonyEricsson, it makes more sense for it to push Symbian OS much more than Palm. As a shareholder it benifits much more from Symbian being strong than it does from PalmSource doing well.

The P900 has sold very well and its a great phone. If Sony continues knocking out phones like this the PDA market willdie a death very soon.

RE: Dumb move for Sony
SeldomVisitor @ 6/1/2004 10:24:50 AM #
W.r.t. Symbian smartphones not being successful w.r.t. PalmOS smartphones - who says!?

From EVERYTHING I've read Symbian phones run circles around PalmOS phones as far as sales are concerned.

RE: Dumb move for Sony
elo @ 6/1/2004 1:59:11 PM #
It would be very hard to call this a bad move without knowing more. At the very least, it frees Sony from having to license the PalmOS. Given that Sony has more than one other OS possibility for future devices, that may not be a big loss from Sony's point of view. Also, the PDA market in general looks much weaker than it did a couple of years ago, at least for general consumer use. The trend seems to show people using their phone more and more for traditional PDA functions. Most people also have an iPod or other music player and many have at least one device that can take a picture. Against all that, the Clie was seeming a bit redundant.

Also, it's hard to know where Sony was really going with this thing. Everybody loved the T series from a couple of years ago and thought it would be quickly followed by something just like it but with virtual graffiti. Instead, they followed with some unusual devices that didn't seem to be targeted at anyone in particular.

I think this does spell doom for PalmSource, but not for another year or so. And who cares, really?

elo

RE: Dumb move for Sony
Sweetlu @ 6/1/2004 5:20:53 PM #
How is this a dumb move for Sony?

They see a trend where the PDA share is shrinking and smartphones are growing. That is why they are going to concentrate on the sony ericcson partbership.

PalmOne beat them to the punch. They saw the trend early and bought handspring before they became bigger than P1.

As for Palmsource, it is time they make a simple smartphone OS so it could compete with simbian and the others or it will be a painful slow death.

___________________________________
Casio B.O.S.S --> M100 --> Vx --> M505 --> T3 -->?

Yankees, Steinbrenner,...... I will never turn to the dark side.

I was looking forward to the next UX model...

jamesgood72 @ 6/1/2004 9:49:38 AM #
I wonder if we'll see a development in the UX line for the Japanese market. Damn, they were so close to the perfect PDA with the UX50...

-James.

RE: I was looking forward to the next UX model...
markgm @ 6/1/2004 9:58:32 AM #
I too was looking forward to the next Clie. I guess the writing was on the wall. Any electronics store I walk into doesn't have even the latest Clie's on display. (Though the Best Buy PDA section looks sad in general.) As much as I like cheap devices, I hope someone steps up to release a high end device to replace my NX80 when the time comes.

RE: I was looking forward to the next UX model...
SeldomVisitor @ 6/1/2004 10:26:51 AM #
The Best Buy PDA section "looking sad" is undoubtedly an example of the reason SONY is dropping PDAs.

RE: I was looking forward to the next UX model...
Hotoru @ 6/2/2004 12:03:54 AM #
Best Buy is dropping PDAs from their product list.
My local on is removing them from the shelves. Though I could see them keeping the cheap Zires as a off the shelf item.

Hotoru.

RE: I was looking forward to the next UX model...
SeldomVisitor @ 6/2/2004 6:22:59 AM #
Indeed - there are those who are confusing the "sectors" of PDAs and phones and making unsupported statements about, for example, PalmOne "beating" Sony in the PDA sector when they're using phone sector information to support their incorrect statement!

The PDA sector hasn't just been shrinking, it's been shrinking DRAMATICALLY - PalmOne itself said they had something like a 20+% dropoff from one year to the next:

-- http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=1607137051&tid=plmo&mid=12165&sid=1607137051

Sony is abandoning that sector NOT because they were "beat" by anyone but because the sector itself is dead. I wonder how the last buggy whip manufacturer discussed their performance:

== "Yes, we had a dramatic increase in marketshare
== when OldHoss Buggy Accessories decided to concentrate
== on that Ford contraption."

...

RE: I was looking forward to the next UX model... IMPORT IT!
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 2:15:00 AM #
The new UX will likely be released in Japan in late August or early September. No doubt specialty importers like Dynamism.com will be willing to profit from those desperate enough to be fleeced by their 100% markup. (e.g. Want a TH-55 with Bluetooth? Got $550? http://www.dynamism.com/peg-th55/pricing.shtml) Expect to pay around $850 for the CLIE UX-100.


Unfortunately, the revised screen and memory upgrade make the new UX pretty much perfect. I still use my Betamax for taping, so I'll have no problem using abandonware CLIEs for a long time to come. Sorry Palm, but the shoddy construction of every new Palm since the Vx means I could never buy a Palm-branded PDA again... I borrowed a Tungsten E a few weeks ago - I couldn't get over how cheap it looked and felt.

Those who can afford quality will be willing to pay for J-Spec CLIES.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: I was looking forward to the next UX model...
mikecane @ 6/3/2004 9:06:05 AM #
>>>I still use my Betamax for taping

Only because the institution you are in could never afford VHS. Your meds task their budget.

Lithium time, Mike
;-o @ 6/3/2004 9:14:00 AM #
Your meds task their budget.

Remember, Mike: God loves you. Even you are special in His eyes.

By the way, read your previous post again and ask yourself if that's really what you meant to say. Read it aloud. Mouthe the words.

It must be painful having to look at yourself every morning in the mirror, Mikey. When you cut, does the pain make you feel better? Why just stop at the hesitation cuts, Mikey? Take it to the next level.





You like me! You really like me!

Sphincterface
mikecane @ 6/3/2004 9:44:17 AM #
Poor Sphincterface. Good thing your mother (whoever she was) couldn't find that coat hanger in time. We would have been spared your hysterical rantings every time you escape from the grounds. You know all about psychomeds. They've tried every one on you. You're a tough nut to crack.

RE: I was looking forward to the next UX model...
;-o @ 6/5/2004 1:53:18 PM #
MC: your have pretty big cojones posting that type of disgusting crap from the safety of your little hovel. I didn't realize 60 year old migets were so tough. I'm impressed. I'd like to see how tough you are in person. Are you still in Brooklyn? I think I'll drop by one day, Caney.




You like me! You really like me!

RE: I was looking forward to the next UX model...
Winter_ @ 6/5/2004 2:47:20 PM #
Hey, are you over-amortizing your new word? That makes 2 uses! Show us the next one!

PSP, Sony Ericsson, Pocket PC

doctor__no @ 6/1/2004 9:55:44 AM #
Maybe they have plans for some PDA-form of the PSP or technology based off the PSP. Seems odd that they would exit the US market so quickly just a few weeks after the PSP announcement.

Or perhaps they see more a multi-functional vision for mobile devices in the future. Likely with their partnership with Sony-Ericsson. Or possibily they just plan on dropping PalmOS and re-emerging a year later with PocketPC or some other OS.

Either way, with less competition the entire PDA market will suffer.

RE: PSP, Sony Ericsson, Pocket PC
Palm Cow @ 6/1/2004 6:38:32 PM #
I can see a phoninated PSP to compete with the N-Gage...or rather, do what the N-Gage was trying to do.

-------------------------------------------
Chess or Chyes
Palm Cow loves it.
CHYES! kevin707s@mchsi.com

bye sony..

helf @ 6/1/2004 10:28:03 AM #
was nice playing with your cruddy pdas while it lasted.

;)

Maybe they're entrenching their positions.

JonAcheson @ 6/1/2004 10:21:11 AM #
This is just a guess, but perhaps Sony is trying to cut back and refocus on their key products? The PS3 is due in a year or two, the PSP is due out sooner than that.

Maybe they thought they were overextended and had been putting in too much R&D money on the Clies without enough return?

Either that or they're trying to prevent the PDAs from competing with the PSP, but that would be a really bad idea. The PSP looks like a bomb already, it would be doubly bad to take down the Clie market along with it.

Jon Acheson


"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

RE: Maybe they're entrenching their positions.
StatCoder.com @ 6/1/2004 12:48:28 PM #
I think you're absolutely right - it's just a guess ;).

I think the market issue is that there, apparently, is no room anymore for the $400 - $500 Palm OS PDA. Either you start making the cheaper ones at a profit or get the hell out of the market.


RE: Maybe they're entrenching their positions.
LiveFaith @ 6/1/2004 1:40:13 PM #
Whatever happened to that "OLED" display device that they alluded to in early 04? Dropped or just pump-n-dump or just a mid-manager with a dream?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
No premium PDA's
StatCoder.com @ 6/1/2004 2:52:57 PM #
I think the only new technology that is viable is the kind that lowers price at this point. Battery life is pretty good and memory is more than enough for the average user. The problem is that if you keep the price of a PDA at $500, people are going to say "why don't you get a laptop if you want a miniature computer".

Sony's next move, Palmsource's direction?

wilco @ 6/1/2004 10:31:19 AM #
What Sony will do next will determine if the clie will ever be ressurected. Sony has a significant stake at Palmsource, if it start dumping that share, then the Clie is going the way of the Dodo. On the other hand, if it create new Japanese Clies (Which it says it would but which I doubt)then you can expect to see hacked and converted US version from Dynamism and the Clie community. It really is surprising that Sony would exit the Clie market when it still experimenting with things like the eLibrie (not sure about spelling). Perhaps it expect the PSP to take over that market in the gaming segment and Sony-Ericsson to cover the Smartphone sector.

As for PalmSource, since Tapwave is the only licensee of note left, maybe we would see further consolidation with Palmone merging with Tapwave and Reacquiring Palmsource (Since without other notable licensees, Palmsource's rationale for being spun-off ceased).



Congratulations, PalmSource!

braicheff @ 6/1/2004 10:33:18 AM #
I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I guess this is the beginning of the end (well, for PalmSource at least). We've already seen numerous statements from PalmOne that they won't nessessarily stick to Palm OS for their future handhelds, and now with the second largest PalmSource licensee pulling out, thing started to look REAL bad. The people at PalmSource who are responsible for this should be fired at once.

Damn. Same sh*t happens every time. Psion went to hell, now Palm is dying slowly, what the hell is going on? Will Microsoft win once again? No no, I don't want to witness that. Not again.

- Harkonnen (former Psion 5mx/Revo fan, now a proud Tungsten T3 owner)

RE: Congratulations, PalmSource!
Foo Fighter @ 6/1/2004 10:46:26 AM #
>> "The people at PalmSource who are responsible for this should be fired at once."

How is it PalmSource's fault that Sony bungled their PDA strategy?

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Congratulations, PalmSource!
braicheff @ 6/1/2004 10:51:59 AM #
And who's fault is it, what do you think? Who's responsible to promote and extend the market share of this platform? If this trend continues, they'll follow Psion's faith very soon, mark my words.
RE: Congratulations, PalmSource!
critic @ 6/1/2004 1:21:02 PM #
Sorry, but your argument doesn't fly. PalmSource (and Palm Inc. before them) have done a fantastic job over the years of championing the strengths of the platform - and I wouldn't be surprised to see an ad campaign just over the horizon for PalmOS Cobalt.
Sony, on the other hand, hasn't produced a single PalmOS-based PDA in the last 3 years based on an unmodified version of the OS. At first, that was a good thing, as Sony wrote their own APIs to allow for features still in development at PalmSource, like the software-based handwriting area and better quality audio playback - but as PalmSource started building those features into the standard OS, Sony continued to use their own proprietary APIs. More recently, instead of offering the new PIM core that first showed up in the T3, Sony created their own, totally different PIM programs, which I'm sure created a compatibility hell for third-party developers. It was almost as if Sony was embarassed be running PalmOS, and were slapping on as many bells and whistles (ie: that launcher thing) in an effort to hide that fact from consumers.

As far as the hardware - some of the designs were brilliant, some were terrible, and some were just kinda there. (But they could never get the hang of designing normal app buttons.)

Frankly, I'm not happy to see Sony go, but I'd rather see them leave the space than continue to half-a$$ it.

----
What do you think, sirs?

RE: Congratulations, PalmSource!
doctor__no @ 6/1/2004 1:37:15 PM #
The market speaks for itself. Palmsoure has been losing massive market share each year. In fact, PalmOS has lost 20% market share in Q1 of this year while PocketPC gained 10%; now PocketPC has a 40% markestshare tied with Palm. Back in 2000 Microsoft only has a 11% marketshare.

http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS8063885791.html

This Sony event just illustrates PalmSources problems, without Sony they lose ~14% marketshare which they would have had.

Atop that, Microsoft has had more sucess in the SmartPhone market of late. Being that they signed a deal with Motorola (World's 2nd cell phone maker behind Nokia) and have a highly anticipated release of the Mpx series of Smartphones that will go on sale soon.

http://www.lordpercy.com/motorola_MPX_smartphone.htm

Just look at Palm Infocenter, news updates have been pretty much barren recently, with fewer PalmOS makers things for the PalmOS will likely continue it's market share slide which has been going on for almost half a decade now.

RE: Congratulations, PalmSource!
Rome @ 6/1/2004 10:03:15 PM #
"Atop that, Microsoft has had more sucess in the SmartPhone market of late. Being that they signed a deal with Motorola (World's 2nd cell phone maker behind Nokia) and have a highly anticipated release of the Mpx series of Smartphones that will go on sale soon."

Doctor No, are you one of those paid Microsoft pumpers? Motorola already has a MSFT smartphone available today, and it is called MPx200 and it stinks. Treo 600, probably the best smartphone out there today, is powered by Palm OS and has been available since September 2003.

With $56 billion in the bank, Mr. Softie's effort in smartphone can only be best described as medicore.



RE: Congratulations, PalmSource!
doctor__no @ 6/1/2004 10:45:00 PM #
"Doctor No, are you one of those paid Microsoft pumpers? Motorola already has a MSFT smartphone available today, and it is called MPx200 and it stinks. Treo 600, probably the best smartphone out there today, is powered by Palm OS and has been available since September 2003.

With $56 billion in the bank, Mr. Softie's effort in smartphone can only be best described as medicore. "

Rome, quite the contrary, I'm someone who would hate to see MSFT dominate another market segment. As far as Smartphones go Palm is dead in the water. They need to convice major players like Nokia, Sony- Ericson to adopt Palm over Symbian as Smartphones as the market moves further down (Treo 600 might be good but it's priced out of avg. consumers budget)

But you seem to me as another disillustioned Palm fanboy that can't see that Palm is losing massive marketshare in the last few years. Right now, WITH Sony, Palm is tied with PocketPC at 40%; without Sony's portion of sales PalmOS will no longer be the top OS. If fanboys such as yourself can't comprehend the gravity of Sony's new position, MSFT will bite the Palm platform in the ass.

Sony's fault anyway .....

Konstantin @ 6/1/2004 10:48:59 AM #
They were too stubborn. Memory stick al the way. They should have made a localized version (US only) with SD/SDIO slot. How many users considered Clie's and then said: "mem shtik? awh phuck it".
I guess that was the biggest turnoff for transition users.

RE: Sony's fault anyway .....
doctor__no @ 6/1/2004 12:23:15 PM #
This is a lame argument. . .

Since Sony uses MS in it's digital cameras and they are the #1 in global sales of digital cameras, ppl don't seem to mind MS in their cameras esp when you consider you need more memory for cameras than PDAs and it's a far larger market than PDAs to begin with. Sony sells several-fold more MS-enabled digital cameras than Palm sells PDAs. Besides SD is a format run by Matsu****a (Panasonic), Toshiba and Sandisk, it also incurs liceencing fees much like the MS.

The PalmOS has effectively lost 14% of OS market share with Sony's exit, the ppl that are the happiest are the folks over at Microsoft. PDAs are in sales slump as of late, and Smartphones are likely going to be dominated by Symbian (being that the major players own stock in it), and Motorola signed a deal with Microsoft.

Future of Sony PDAs?
http://www.sonyericsson.com/p900/main.aspx?regionCode=ca

RE: Sony's fault anyway .....
neilc @ 6/1/2004 12:31:24 PM #
I agree,
I just bought a Palm instead of a Clie because I don't want to be tied to memory stick. More products use SD.

RE: Sony's fault anyway .....
scaught @ 6/1/2004 2:04:26 PM #
i really dont see how what memory the device uses is going to sway your decision that seriously.

when i had a HandEra - i bought a CF card
when i had a Clie - i had a memory stick
now i have a tungesten E - surprise, i bought an SD card

its not like theyre horribly expensive. do you people swap the cards in your palm with your digital cameras or whatever? my card stays in the palm. unless im transferring stuff directly to the card via USB.

palmIII>HandERA330>SonySJ20>TungstenE

RE: Sony's fault anyway .....
jamesgood72 @ 6/1/2004 2:34:11 PM #
Sony really fouled up by limiting the original MS to 128MB, but Memory Sticks are not a bad thing otherwise. 95% of the buying public doesn't care if it's MS, CF, SD or SM.

-James.

RE: Sony's fault anyway .....
hkklife @ 6/1/2004 3:51:51 PM #
For me personally, already owning a SD-enabled digicam, the MS never held much attraction (I went from SM to SD) as a format. Especially now with the fragmentation of MS into MS, MS Pro, MS Duo, MS Pro Duo. I never considered a Clie after the OS5 NX70V as the lack of usable memory was just too much of an inconvenience. I agree that Sony's proprietary APIs should have been discarded when the OS5 units arrived.

RE: Sony's fault anyway .....
TrafficGeek @ 6/1/2004 10:46:06 PM #
I have to agree. Sony pissed off a lot of early adopter by extracting an enormous first adopter tax in the introduction of MS-Pro. I can attest to them losing at least 8 customer in that one move along. Also, I don't know who's the component master mind at Sony, but they keep coming up what are honestly very innovative designs that no one wants. The PDA market was build on small handy devices w/out the bulk of the keyboards. Few of the traditional early adopters wanted a clamshell PDA that needed a shopping cart as an accessory. The TH-55 should've been out last year and they would've had great sales. Had they built this using *fast* CPU for their top of the line units, it would've boosted their sales even more!

I hope this decision had something to do w/moving titles and accessories for the PPS. Which strangely makes some sense to me. If this was due to poor sales, well...Sony has so much design and engineering talent, but someone in their marketing department keeps aiming the shotgun at their own foot and at us early adopters.

RE: Sony's fault anyway .....
palmhiker @ 6/2/2004 10:19:50 AM #
Lame argument or not, the MS issue is exactly what kept me from owning a Clie or two. I have a camera and a laptop that accepts SD's, and a sizeable investment in cards. No way I am going to lose that compatibility if I can help it.



RE: Sony's fault anyway .....
doctor__no @ 6/2/2004 1:44:10 PM #
>>"Lame argument or not, the MS issue is exactly what kept me from owning a Clie or two. I have a camera and a laptop that accepts SD's, and a sizeable investment in cards. No way I am going to lose that compatibility if I can help it."

Well, that argument works both ways. Sony sells around ~15million Digital Cameras a year (around the same size as the entire PDA market), and Sony-Ericson is already a big player in the cell phone idustry. Not to mention that the PSP should add tens of millions more MS users, and a likely another tens of millions from the next iteration of the Playstation.

I'm sure those millions of ppl would prefer MS to SDs; but the vast majority of the normal public could care less (esp since these days you can buy a good sized MS or SD for ~$20), they have much more important things to do than care about stupid memory standards.

Did everyone miss this quote ...

Token User @ 6/1/2004 11:10:56 AM #
Sony says they will take this time to examine the conventional PDA business and how it will transition in the future. New Clie product development and sales will continue in the Japanese market only. Sony continued to elaborate that they view wireless communications features as a key pillar to their business strategy and that they plan to continue their collaboration with Sony Ericsson.

Let look at what we know:
1. No new Clie in the US market in fall.
2. Cobalt coming 4Q'04/1Q'05.
3. Wireless communications key - and passing FCC is problematic/timeconsuming.

Pesimistic View: THE WORLD IS ENDING!
Optimistic View: Can't wait for 2005 for the new devices from Sony ... VGA res screens, Wifi/Cellular access, Cobalt multitasking, multimedia, sweet.

Love my Clie (NX70). When it gets too long in the tooth and is ready to replace, I'll look at the market and decide a new vendor. 94 - Newton MP110, 97 - Palm Pro, 99 - Palm VII, 00 - Visor Dlx /w Minstrel Packet Modem, 03 - Clie NX70 /w Wifi & Microdrive ... No brand loyalty, but each device fit my criteria at the time.


~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: Did everyone miss this quote ...
hj43 @ 6/1/2004 11:49:20 AM #
As a developer I'm at least a little worried about what this means for the future of the Palm platform, but at the same time, I've gotten so utterly disgusted with Sony over the years that frankly I'm a bit relieved to have them out of the market. No longer will I be stuck supporting poorly-designed proprietary API's for features native only to one or two models of Clie, no longer will I have to spend time debugging on machines with buttons placed in positions designed specifically to cause early-onset arthritis among their users, no longer will I have to gingerly handle a needle-thin Clie stylus to avoid poking someone's eye out... I appreciate the work Sony has done to pull the Palm OS platform forward, but Tapwave and palmOne itself seem to be picking up the slack now, and frankly the last thing we need at this point is more poorly-designed, incompatible, crash-prone Clie's floating around.

So goodbye and good riddance, Sony, you should have left the market years ago when OS 5 came out (or at the very least bowed out after the introduction of the T3).

RE: Did everyone miss this quote ...
MonkeyK @ 6/1/2004 1:37:44 PM #
Ya, I was thinking about what you quoted. Sony is still developing the Clie line, but not selling in the US. At least they have the guts to tell us so we don't hop up and down on one foot waiting for the next Clie.

RE: Did everyone miss this quote ...
Foo Fighter @ 6/1/2004 2:11:14 PM #
>> "Optimistic View: Can't wait for 2005 for the new devices from Sony ... VGA res screens, Wifi/Cellular access, Cobalt multitasking, multimedia, sweet."

Even if true, what makes you think there will still be a market left for Sony to come back to? If your company is shifting strategies, you don't just pull out of your existing markets. That would be like Dell saying their going to pull out of the PC market until Longhorn arrives. Handspring did this and we all know how that story ended.

Sony is leaving and they're not coming back. The best we can hope for is a Sony branded PalmOS Smartphone, but that seems unlikely.



-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Did everyone miss this quote ...
Token User @ 6/1/2004 3:41:33 PM #
Sony is leaving and they're not coming back. The best we can hope for is a Sony branded PalmOS Smartphone, but that seems unlikely.

... and is that necessarily a bad thing? Noone knows how much inventory Sony US/Europe have in their channel. Let them exhaust their stock in the traditional PDA channel for now.

With the success of the Handspring Treo, if Sony is looking to reinvent itself in the PDA space, wireless communicators are the way to go. My opinion is that Sony will probably come back with two models, a PDA centric model with cellular networking (GSM/CDMA carriers? could be either or both) that has always on data, and the ability to make a phone call, and a phone centric device that is well - a smartphone to compete against Treo/Kyo/Samsung.

Keep a close eye on the Japanese market over the upcoming months. If you have ever been to Japan, you will see that they are on the bleeding edge of cellular communications and everyone has a cellphone glued to the ears or permanently attached to their thumbs texting.

I think Sony is positioning itself for a new wave of devices. A lull before the storm ...

(BTW - There is an expression about "Opinions being like ---holes. Everyone has one and they are generally full of ---t." Take anything I said with a grain of salt. I have no inside information.)


~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: Did everyone miss this quote ...
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 4:35:54 AM #
(BTW - There is an expression about "Opinions being like ---holes. Everyone has one and they are generally full of ---t.")


People that have seen your gaping maw in action believe you're very special. You have two ---holes and the top one is continually overflowing with chocolatey goodness. Please gargle with some Pepto Bismol and put an end to the verbal diarrhea. PLEASE.


Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

if this is true...

bobes @ 6/1/2004 11:59:10 AM #
then maybe those previous rumours of Dell and Toshiba becoming PalmOS licencees could be true.


RE: if this is true...
neuron @ 6/1/2004 12:04:22 PM #
You must be kidding, this news IS true.

"Conventional" PDAs

alexp @ 6/1/2004 12:18:36 PM #
Please note the use of the phrase "Conventional PDAs."

I would suggest this means Sony will still be willing to make PalmOS devices of the Smartphone variety. But I'm guessing they'll wait until PalmOS Cobalt and Garnet are ready.

This is not necessarily bad news.

RE:
Konstantin @ 6/1/2004 3:31:27 PM #
What if Sony is up to different pda's, like wearable computing, with head mounted displays (HMD) and new input devices. HMD arent cheap but who knows, time has passed, new technologies are available, maybe there will be realy different PDA's from Sony.

Miniature XP device

redregane @ 6/1/2004 12:31:21 PM #
InfoSync reports that Sony may be concentrating on Win XP miniature devices ....excellent move....

Eeek!
Winter_ @ 6/1/2004 1:16:04 PM #
That's disgusting, man.
RE: Miniature XP device
Konstantin @ 6/1/2004 3:42:49 PM #
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/10/sony_micro_pc/

Sony will ship a keyboardless PC in Japan later this month. But it's no Tablet PC - instead, this pen-operated, wireless-enabled Windows XP machine will be pitched at mobile media consumers.

The consumer electronics giant is billing the Vaio VGN-U70 as the world's smallest full-function Windows PC. The unit measures 16.7 x 10.8 x 2.6cm and weighs just 550g. Much of the machine's face is taken up by an 800 x 600 transflective colour LCD. The display can also operate at up to 1600 x 1200, but at this stage it's not clear if that's a native resolution.

Apparently, there's a button you can press that reformats the display in portrait mode, not unlike the way the PalmOne Tungsten T3's screen works. There are also buttons that operate the cursor.........

RE: Miniature XP device
Konstantin @ 6/1/2004 3:44:36 PM #
but not cheap

The U70 will ship on 29 May for around ¥210,000 ($1871). Sony will also offer a lower spec. model, the U50, for ¥179,000 ($1595), which contains just 256MB of memory and a 900MHz ULV Celeron processor. It ships with Windows XP Home Edition.



RE: Miniature XP device
kp* @ 6/1/2004 4:11:26 PM #
That's my theory, too. Obviously the PDA market is slowing down, but I think it also has to do with the fact that Vaios are getting smaller, and eventually there will be one which will basically be like a hard-drive PDA that runs Windows, and it will replace the high-end Clies. I for one wouldn't buy it, but I can see where the Clie would become redundant if PCs get that small.

Who knows

xavier @ 6/1/2004 1:40:57 PM #
Maybe they're pulling out so they can go in with Apple to release the fabled MessagePad 3000??!

Seems like Sony would be the dominant PalmOS player right now if they could ever do the whole job on a new PDA. All/most all seemed to have their one tragic flaw. My T3 may not be perfect, but at least P1 worked out landscape out of the box. Sigh.

RE: Who knows
elo @ 6/1/2004 1:57:09 PM #
I think Apple wants to stay far away from Sony right about now. Who wouldn't?

elo

Sound

vjrequena @ 6/1/2004 3:07:18 PM #
In my opinion the day Sony make posible that all the new avalible program run in its PDA without to much problem they'll be back in business

TH-55 shows you why

tompi @ 6/1/2004 5:54:52 PM #
If you look at the TH-55, you can see why: Sony wanted to do so much with those handhelds, but they ran into limitations of PalmOS all over the place. Their organizer software is fast--except when it has to interface with Palm databases. Synchronization of Sony's new features requires some unpleasant hack involving putting long random strings into the "Note" fields of things. And every time they put some new, interesting hardware feature on their machines (bigger screen, audio, camera, Bluetooth, etc.), they first have to do their own API and utilities before Palm comes out with the same features in their own hardware and adds support to the OS; then, Sony has to redo it all and support two separate APIs, and they appear to be the ones not doing a good job to many customers. For example, my Sony TH-55 couldn't connect to my Sony Bluetooth phone without third party software.

Sony engineers probably just got tired of bashing their head against the wall. Maybe Palm management can sweet-talk them back into the Palm platform, but I think they must be seriously looking at doing their own, following Sharp, or maybe even licensing WinCE.

RE: TH-55 shows you why
rsc1000 @ 6/2/2004 3:32:53 PM #
thats ridiculous. sony bit themselves on the ass by spending more $$$ on R & D than any other handheld manufacturer, more on designing more models than anybody else (the pace of new releases of clies got downright confusing) - all in a shrinking marketspace. worse - they NEVER listened to customers in europe or north america who complained about crappy buttons (why oh why - would they spend so much overhead on nifty features that i would love, when i wont touch a sony with a fifty foot pole because the interface is crippled by the wrong choice of a 5 cent peice of plastic???). Plus - their famous insistance on proprietary MS and a proprietary version of Cf. Lame - they just lost their way - and their decling share of the declining PDA market proves it. In any event - palmone will do fine because this is all they do, and thus - they have to listen to customers. i have many beefs with their hardware as well - but at least they fix something that people haa=ve complained about with each new model (these days).

RE: TH-55 shows you why
tompi @ 6/2/2004 9:33:29 PM #
sony bit themselves on the ass by spending more $$$ on R & D than any other handheld manufacturer,

So, you agree then that Sony, in fact, should not have been spending a lot of money on R & D for Palm-based PDAs. Well, Sony apparently agrees, too, which is why they are dropping the Palm platform. Instead, they'll probably move their efforts to some other platform that allows them to support their R & D efforts better.

why oh why - would they spend so much overhead on nifty features that i would love, when i wont touch a sony with a fifty foot pole because the interface is crippled by the wrong choice of a 5 cent peice of plastic???

Well, see, unlike you, I use both Sony PDAs and Palms. All the Sony PDAs I have used have been excellent and the innovative features on them generally made sense and were well executed. Sony has decades of experience with consumer devices--they know what they are doing.

All the problems I have ever had with Sony PDAs have been due to problems with PalmOS. Sony tried to work around them in every release (e.g., Bluetooth assistant for the PG-50, Connection Manager for the TH-55, etc.), but ultimately, it started giving them a bad name and it probably just became too expensive to implement and support, and that's why they quit.

Sony and Palm just weren't a good match. PalmOne/PalmSource can have the simple PIM market to themselves, for which PalmOS is still OK, but Sony apparently wants to move beyond that.

RE: TH-55 shows you why...CLIEs are the only way to go.
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 4:29:12 AM #
TH-55 (Bluetooth version) + landscape mode option + Clie Organizer polishing + bugfixes + better Bluetooth implementation = a better PDA than ANYTHING Palm is currently offering. Use one for a while and you'll agree. Unless you're dumb as a brick, that is.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

Where's Michael Mace?

Gekko @ 6/1/2004 6:50:41 PM #
RE: Where's Michael Mace?
DaKracken @ 6/1/2004 7:21:38 PM #
That would be a huge loss for PalmSource.
RE: Where's Michael Mace?
Michael Mace @ 6/1/2004 7:53:14 PM #
I'm right here. The company doesn't have me on the execs webpage, which is OK since that means I don't get a ton of unsolicited calls from vendors wanting to sell us stuff.

Thanks for asking.

Mike
CCO, PalmSource Inc.

RE: Where's Michael Mace?
madhatter @ 6/1/2004 9:34:17 PM #
Hi Michael

What is Palm Source's take on all this? Is it the doom and gloom for Palm Source that everyone says it is. ( Nice to see you still posting.. )



A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

RE: Where's Michael Mace?
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 5:30:59 PM #
Upcoming headline -- perhaps November 2004?

"PalmSource Announces Layoffs."

I hope MM doesn't have one of those fatcat-sized salaries... then again, even PS havs him cheap, how did his Competitive Intelligence ever help Sony?

Calling Michael Mace... come in Michael. Au79 parachute???
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 3:07:24 AM #
Prediction: Mr. Mace will be no longer in his current position within two months. Remember: your parachute melts at 1064.18°C.

Alas, Poor Mace! I knew him well.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

ClieSource is dead!

Foo Fighter @ 6/1/2004 7:55:23 PM #
Apparently ClieSource decided to close up shop now. They've merged with PalmOne City. The Clie market has begun to implode already.

Check it out: http://www.cliesource.com

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: ClieSource is dead!
Vidge @ 6/1/2004 8:59:47 PM #
Well if you read the postings over at 1src.com, you'll see that they just took this opportunity to do what made sense anyway. CS has a huge fan base and POC had a much smaller one. It makes sense to put them all under one umbrella.

Moderator, Daily Gadget
http://www.dailygadget.com
Visit us for our latest giveaway!
RE: ClieSource is dead!
abosco @ 6/1/2004 10:02:50 PM #
ClieSource was a dying bird. It had a huge fanbase, but the focus strictly on Clies where the OEM couldn't give less of a rat's ass about its meaningless products or its fans is really two strikes against it. They were most likely planning this since they saw the T|T3, opened up PalmOneCity because Clies were going downhill, and now this. Let's just hope PIC grows as a result of this, as the amount of information passed around here is genuinely underrated by visitors of the other sites of much less quality.

As you can tell, I take these things to heart and speak with the soul.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

RE: ClieSource is dead!
Foo Fighter @ 6/1/2004 10:24:57 PM #
>> "Let's just hope PIC grows as a result of this, as the amount of information passed around here is genuinely underrated by visitors of the other sites of much less quality."

Underrated indeed! Not to mention all the whining that goes on here. PIC is by far the best Palm news/resource site on the web. Too many people that frequent this site fail to appreciate that fact.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: ClieSource is dead!
gfunkmagic @ 6/1/2004 11:15:44 PM #
>>>> They were most likely planning this since they >>>saw the T|T3, opened up PalmOneCity because Clies >>>were going downhill, and now this.

Actually Reggie apparently knew about Sony withdrawing from the pda segment since last week!!!

Quote:
"I knew new the actual news since Monday of last week when sony called. The moderators and I got to talk about the possbile oprtions aand we chose merging the two sites. Also, it so happened that there was a long weekend comning.

I had to say that there was some maintenance going on since I was on a NDA with Sony not to release the news until today. The "maintenance" option is usually the most believable reason.

The merging wasn't easy. I only have a few hours of sleep since Friday from recreating the new site from scratch. There are still a lot missing, but it is very much functional.

Both sites' databases are zipped and archived. Both sites will still have the forums up for members and guests to look at, but will never open for new posts again.

As for PPC, they are cool devices too but I think I'll stay with the PalmOS for the mean time since I want to see the new Cobalt devices. If Brighthand is correct Dell and HP will become PalmOS licensees -- that will be interesting. "


http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=55902

I understand why they did this, afterall they need to survive just like any other site. However I wish there was more of a warning... Also 1src.com is basically now the main rival to brighthand and pdastreet forums for multidevice palmos devices. It's always good to have more competition and I hope both 1scr.com and PIC continue to prosper in the future...

I support http://Tapland.com/

--------------------
GNM

RE: ClieSource is dead!
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 9:17:24 AM #
Wow, now THAT's an URL that I'll easily remember... NOT!

RE: ClieSource is dead!
Foo Fighter @ 6/3/2004 12:46:37 AM #
>> "I understand why they did this, afterall they need to survive just like any other site."

Right, and we all know what happened to VisorCentral after Handspring announced they were exiting the PDA business. THUD!!!! Thanks Mr. Hawkins, you killed our web site!

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

Rumors of ClieSource's death are greatly exaggerated...
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 2:09:42 AM #
By the way, didn't VisorCentral basically morph into TreoCentral? (Simply the home of the most active forums of ANY PalmOS site ANYWHERE!)

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: ClieSource is dead!
Foo Fighter @ 6/3/2004 2:31:44 AM #
Kind of. TreoCentral launched long before Handspring killed off the Visor. But after Hawkins and company pulled the plug, Visorcentral's popularity plunged like a lead anchor. The admins finally absorbed VisorCentral into TreoCental because the community around it had evaporated. In its hey day, VC was the BEST PalmOS site around.

I hope some policy changes take place at 1src. Like NO MORE UNREGISTERED POSTERS ALLOWED!!! Yeesh, what a troll haven that place was.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

CS is not dead , no! It's alive! CS is not dead, no! It's...
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 2:54:04 AM #
And I suppose you think forcing registration stopped ska/blueWhatever/hoplites/purpleXYZLMNOP?

PIC's bigest mistake was getting rid of I. M. Anonymous. Discussion here is now like watching paint dry. Every night I pray that God will keep Mike Cane safe from harm so that we will continue to put our DSM IV books to use:

Axis I - BPD
Axis II - Histrionic PD. Borderline PD. Narcissistic PD. Boring as H E L L and really messed up PD. etc etc.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: ClieSource is dead!
Foo Fighter @ 6/3/2004 3:22:19 AM #
No, but it keeps out about 90% of the riff raff. Have you forgotten what PIC was like before registration? It was a mad house. Posters like Ska will always find an avenue of approach no matter what framework is in place.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: ClieSource is sleeping very soundly! I heard it breathe.
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 3:44:56 AM #
Have you forgotten what PIC was like before registration?

No. It was still interesting back then. Discussion. Tips. (Remember the first article showing how to use MSMount?) Scoops. (NDAs are for losers.) Fun.

Now we have a site where 95.46% of posts come from a grand total of seven regulars. A site where it's now not unusual for there to be less than 5 or 10 posts in a day. PIC should increase the # of current articles listed on the main page to 10 - 15, get more PDA/hardware/software reviews posted and stop having a single person trying to do it all. And Mr. Anonymous needs to return.

It's a shame that because of the NDAs no one here has the cojones to post a hot scoop these days. Have ANY stories broken here in the past year.

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: ClieSource is dead!
Winter_ @ 6/3/2004 6:04:09 AM #
Look who's talking about content quality.

During this last week that you didn't appear I finally saw some discussions getting interesting; perhaps the first time on the 3 months I've known this site that discussions were not a sh*t tempest.



RE: ClieSource is dead!
mikecane @ 6/3/2004 8:59:14 AM #
I see Sphincterface is back.

PalmSource Slides as Sony Exits PDA Business

Gekko @ 6/1/2004 10:07:26 PM #

Market Share

tfftruoa @ 6/1/2004 10:37:02 PM #
I'm hearing all this concern about how this will drop POS market share by 14% or whatever the clie nombre du jure is. Unless I am very much mistaken, market share won't change at all. The 14% of PDA users with clies will still be using them, and sony is still selling its four current handhelds.

Even when sony totally vanishes from the PDA market, its loss wont mean PPC's gain. People who tend to buy clies have most likely established a preferance for palm os not to mention having spent money on software, so I doubt they will jump ship and buy an HP or Dell at the new that sony is not releasing any future models. P1 or Tapwave or Garmin will be available for people interested in high end PDAs.

Honestly, this isn't the death sentence it's being made out to be.

The Federation for the Responsible Use of Acronyms

palmOne beat Sony

rsc1000 @ 6/2/2004 2:57:23 AM #
All of this doom and gloom about Palms OS. It's really about PDAs in general and the fact that the PDA market - though still going to grow - is not what some industry players predicted. So only those with top-marketshare survive. Sony really shook things up and then they completey dropped the ball. Really, not since the original NR series have they been able to generate the excitemnt or marketshare growth (yeah - i liked the os 6 versions better too - but the public apparently stopped caring). palmOne came back, learned it's lesons, and whomped sony on its ass. I am not a super palmOne fan - i have been ticked at some annoying design screw-up or another with every palmOne model i've owned. But they have shown a lot of progress in the last 2 years and they usually respond to popular complaints with every new model. Sony came out swinging and then failed to follow up by fixing the design problems of the Clie (the simple 5 cent things - like BUTTONS WE CAN ACTUALLY USE). In the end they showed an utter lack of regard for their customers and the customers responded. Palm OS isnt dead - they'll still have %40+ marketshare this year at least. As somebody pointed out in an above post, Toshiba will jump from PPC soon and they'l be saying the samething there. PDAs are fine - the market just can't support 7-8 big players, each throwing hundreds of millions into it for tiny profit margins.

Same product, different markets

neilc @ 6/2/2004 1:31:51 AM #
How many people in North America are willing to spend $700 USD on a Sony Clie UX-50 PDA?
How many people in Japan are willing to buy a Zire 21 PDA at $80 USD which actually takes a step back in terms of technology?

The Sony Clie product development was geared for the Japanese market, more features, higher quality, higher cost. This worked in the North American market too, when PDA's were a "had to have" item, people were willing to spend more, and Sony was first with high resolution screens, MP3 playback, thumb-keyboard etc. Then, PalmOne caught up in terms of technology, the market cooled off, and even PDA ethusiasts got tired of paying more than $400 USD for high end devices.

In the mature PDA market, Palm has done much better than Sony marketing their PDAs as much more than just a spec sheet of technology. Better brand recognition ( first to market ), better advertising, PR and even packaging. ( green clie boxes all look the same ). I still remember that my Palm IIIe Special Edition came in a translucent corregated plastic box, and I remember when the Tungsten T first came out in its own "display case" box. Even the recent blister package makes the Zire 31 and 72 enforces its a friendly consumer device, not a complicated computer thing.

Looking forward, Sony should take the same approach with Clie as they have with walkmans, CD players, and other personal electronics. When the current model in Japanese is obsolete, repackage for the rest of the world at half the cost.

Quote from Matthieu Dupont, General Manager of Sony Europe

dirkmeissner @ 6/2/2004 3:27:41 AM #
Found this on http://www.infosyncworld.com/:

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/4984.html

"In a phone interview with infoSync World, Matthieu Dupont, General Manager of Sony's CLIE business unit in Europe, said Sony would continue selling its existing line-up for the next six to eight months. Current CLIE models include the Sony CLIE PEG-TJ27, PEG-TJ37 and PEG-TH55, all of which are available in both Europe and North America, and for which Sony will honour warrantee guarantees and continue to offer 'required' software updates.

According to Dupont, Sony continues to view mobile devices a key pillar in its offerings, but will shift its focus to devices offering audio, video and games on the go - whilst at the same time keeping an emphasis on wireless connectivity. The Japanese manufacturer apparently has no plans to fill the void left by its CLIE handhelds, however recent efforts to deliver miniature tablets running Windows XP suggests this could be a potential trade-up for Sony devotees.

When asked to comment on Sony's keeping of the CLIE line in Japan, Dupont cited the significant market share achieved by the CLIE line in Japan as opposed to other markets. With over 50% of the Japanese market Sony's position is entirely different from other markets, and the manufacturer also assumes Japan to be the best market for further research into the conventional handheld space."


It looks to me that they are going a new direction (audio, video and games) maybe with or without Palm OS.

Dirk

Mini WindowsXP and SmartPhones

gmigueis @ 6/2/2004 3:28:07 AM #
I don't like the idea of having a pda-sized-windowsxp-powered-laptop.
Hard-drive: noisy mechanical stuff. PDA's can read/write with no problem in the middle of an earthquake;

I don't like the idea of having a smartphone either:
a beautiful and lovely device such as a PDA, with no mechanics, low power consuming and appealing as a Palm OS powered one is DOES NOT need the BULK of a monthly bill and extra hardware related to it! With bluetooth the phone can rest in the briefcase or on another pocket.

Hell, we're many and we like Palm OS. OS 5 is good and fast and Cobalt will hopefully follow it's steps. Why would the Palm OS marked fear Sony's retirement?
(I like Sony devices - It would be my next one)

(my iPAQ3970 is SO SLOW next to my T|T3 or my T|E)

RE: Mini WindowsXP and SmartPhones
SeldomVisitor @ 6/2/2004 6:35:26 AM #
Really the only problem with PalmOne being the only PalmOS user out there (in essence - the only significant player) is that they are, as someone somewhere pointed out, like a fish swimming against the current.

That's not a small problem.

(and note - this statement applies regardless the device being discussed, not just the PDA sector that SONY is abandoning)

Very bad news for the Palm based PDA...

satori @ 6/2/2004 8:30:50 AM #
Looks like Sony agrees with Steve Jobs when he said he foresaw PDA's morphing into smartphones.

Not a very good time for Palm to drop Mac support either, it looks like Palm need all the support they can get at the moment.

I really thought PDA's had a future, but I think I'm beginning to agree with SJ & Sony, I think my next purchase will be a smartphone or iPod rather than a Tungsten T3.

It's a shame really, as in the hands of Apple, the Palm PDA could've been astounding (who knows what SJ would have done with it had Palm agreed to sell all those years ago to Apple).

As it stands now, the Palm platform may wither away, unless the new OS & hardware creates some real innovation to excite the market.

But I expect the bad business decisions will continue (dropping Mac support & sucking up to Microsoft are just 2 that spring to mind), that will gadually shrink and erode the company.

Well, this changes things...

mikecane @ 6/2/2004 9:18:52 AM #
... not the least of which was satiating my lust for that TH55!

So, CLIEs are out. Why spend $$$ on an MStick I'd only use for *it*?

I can't say I love the T3. All of the QC and bad palmOne "service" stories bother me.

Will hp license PalmOS? Was that rumor ever true? Perhaps it was, and Sony saw the (English!) handwriting on the wall...

RE: Well, this changes things...
Foo Fighter @ 6/2/2004 9:38:51 AM #
You think you have it rough? I have a 128MB MS that I invested in two years ago, which is now an orphan. And it will remain as such unless I purchase a Sony digital camera, or some other gadget that uses chewing gum for memory. Maybe I'll keep it as a collector's item. As I said many times before, this was one prediction I was hoping would be wrong. Without Sony, the PDA market is sure to get boring real fast. It's not like Dull..oops, Dell, can design a sexy mobile device. HP is..well..ok, only just. PalmOne? Sure, they seem to be on a roll lately..but the fact that we now really on them as the sole source for PalmOS handhelds scares the hell out of me. Normally I don't subscribe to doom and gloom pontifications that go on here, but this time...we could be watching the beginning of a disaster. :-(

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Well, this changes things...
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 9:58:00 AM #
I have *two* MSticks: 16MB and 32MB!

It *is* a disaster. Unless hp licenses PalmOS, Cobalt won't be worth crap.

In fact, with all the damned things still *not in* Cobalt, its value is questionable anyway...

...let's see, without *SONY* to scream about the lack of a FILESYSTEM in the OS...

RE: Well, this changes things...
Foo Fighter @ 6/2/2004 10:12:50 AM #
Not to mention Cobalt still has the same old tired Palm interface. Even the folks at PalmSource know it's outdated. And to top it off, we won't see Cobalt based hardware until Christmas..or early next year? Yeesh, why don't we just end this and hand the PDA market to Microsoft. Windows Mobile 2003SE, or whatever it's called is starting to look good to me. Too bad the hardware is so damn expensive.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Well, this changes things...
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 11:34:41 AM #
We have yet to see that VGAed Asus with WiFi reach these shores... maybe it will set a new price point.

But my PPC lust has gone, uh, limp...

Dell Axim X30 Handheld 312MHz
Gekko @ 6/2/2004 2:15:50 PM #
>"Too bad the hardware is so damn expensive."

Dell Axim X30 Handheld 312MHz
$249 and you get 312MHz XScale, 64MB RAM, 64MB ROM, SD Slot, Wi-Fi AND Bluetooth built-in, Removable Battery, and new Windows Mobile.

I paid $400 for my T3. Whose hardware is "so damn expensive"? Looks like Dell is cheaper AND provides more value for the dollar. Looks like "dull" PalmOne is getting "Delled".

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/pda?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&~ck=bt

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Dell_Axim_X30_Review?site=PPC

I'm jumping ship to the Axim if Palm goes under.

RE: Well, this changes things...
Foo Fighter @ 6/4/2004 11:16:14 PM #
Gekko, I was referring to PPC's with VGA screens. The Axim you mentioned has a lower res screen than most $200 Palm devices. Why would I want that?

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Well, this changes things...
mikecane @ 6/5/2004 10:17:53 AM #
Gekko has become Shillboy for Dull. Even over at Brighthand you can see his, "Duuuuude, get a Dull!!!" posts. (At least he uses *one* handle everywhere -- Sphincterface here at PIC, suffering from MPD and the burden of being born to an unknown street mother, uses many.)

RE: Well, this changes things...
Texonite @ 6/11/2004 6:55:06 AM #
I don't think POS Interface is so bad. It offer us launching apps (no, really, how often do you look to the 'desktop' on your palm, and don't you use hardware buttons and so to open most used apps?)
If you want something more, you just install some launcher (i don't use this funny&beautiful things at all, but Facer 2.04 looks great to me), and it's solved!

Filesystem... Agh... yep... Fliesystem is just the image of the same Storage Heap, but then with some order (maps and so on...) I can write an app, that should represent usual POS storage heap as a tree of maps, but do you really need it? I even can write a hack (oh, maybe i can't do it now ;-) ), wich can open files from (let's say another launcher) in their apps, as you want it to...

One thing that really must be there is a support for all file types - nothing more than that...

____________________
Future Online!
Sorry for my bad english :(

Put that Memory Stick money here?

mikecane @ 6/2/2004 9:25:21 AM #
RE: Put that Memory Stick money here?
ozz @ 6/2/2004 11:21:48 AM #
To quote from the video: ".....and how much is it? Less than $2,000.00" Aarggh!!

_________________________
Lord, help me become the person my dog thinks I am!
RE: Put that Memory Stick money here?
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 11:26:51 AM #
Yes: Price is high. But if you are like me and not only have to upgrade your PDA but your *desktop* too -- hell, for that price I get a POCKETABLE DESKTOP! Did you see how it can dock and hook into full-sized screen and keyboard, etc? (Mouse too, I hope!) This would take the place of a desktop *and* a laptop for me. As for it replacing a PDA... well, I can see being able to offload stuff that a PDA doesn't do well: Video, for instance...

Besides, in five years, *all* PCs will be like this -- and cost what PCs cost today. Cheeeeep.

Gotta work on that damned battery, though...

RE: Put that Memory Stick money here?
Texonite @ 6/11/2004 7:11:53 AM #
I haven't seen this videos, but can you tell me, how long does it take to get on? i mean if i wanna to make short note, i can do it in a same second on my Palm, will i be able to make that with *THIS*?

And i don't think that with $2k price it would be a best seller...

____________________
Future Online!
Sorry for my bad english :(

Ryan, polish that resume

mikecane @ 6/2/2004 10:00:43 AM #
'nuff said!

PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..

Foo Fighter @ 6/2/2004 10:32:31 AM #
Read: http://news.com.com/PalmSource+looks+to+China+for+new+licensees/2100-1016_3-5224357.html?tag=nefd.top">This story on CNET

China? ROFL!!!!! Oh my God, we are doomed. And with a name like Ningbo Bird, I hope they never release products in the US market.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
Foo Fighter @ 6/2/2004 10:35:27 AM #
Good lord. Ryan...your comment system doesn't recognize a standard HTML href tag? You have got to replace this system.

Here is the URL. http://tinyurl.com/2wqov



-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
hoodoo @ 6/2/2004 11:19:50 AM #
No worries, we'll be able to buy grey market Ningbo Bird handhelds before we know it...I wonder what the models will be called? The Eagle, for business users and the Flamingo for "fun" users, perhaps?

RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
madhatter @ 6/2/2004 11:21:23 AM #
Foo Fighter

With a population of 1.3 billion and growing and the fastest growing economy in the world right now, I don't see how that would be a bad thing.

If you figure 25% are middle class and 1/10 of 1 percent of the middle class convert to the Palm OS, that is 3.2 million customers.. I can't see that as being anything to sneeze at.



A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 11:43:48 AM #
As for those Chinese --

from the ever-excellent http://www.teleread.org/blog --

Chinese said to be looking for U.S. and European e-book distributors

The post below from panyq@yahoo.com appeared on the eBook Community List. We know nothing about the sender, so be open-minded but cautious.

I am looking for some ebooks distributors in the U.S. and Europe.

In China, more and more universities and colleges use e-books instead of paper books. Those eletronic version of course books used in U.S. universities will have a huge market in China. We are looking forward to establishing the business relationship with the leading e-books distributors.

If you know anything, I will very appreciative to hear from you.


RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 11:47:15 AM #
The Koreans aren't slackers, either --

again from http://www.teleread.org/blog

Friday, May 28, 2004:
Cells phones vs. PDAs for e-books: A lesson from Korea

"It's true that [a] PDA is a better source to read e-books. It has bigger screens than that of cell phones. But there is no one buying PDAs. That is the problem." - You Youn-sun, public relations manager at Booktopia, a Korean e-book comapany, as quoted by the Korea Herald.

RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 11:49:59 AM #
RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
Foo Fighter @ 6/2/2004 1:13:21 PM #
Actually I was referring to the US market. PalmSource is so desperate their focussing on China. Perhaps they know North America is a lost cause for PalmOS?

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
Token User @ 6/2/2004 3:07:52 PM #
??

The US market for PDA's has pretty much been saturated. Device sales are slumping (ref: Gartner). How many of the current sales are going to new users and not just upgrading users? SmartPhones are the new device to have (thought they don't suit everyone) - so that is the direction markting is going ... Kyocera, Samsung, PalmOne, and now the Chinese bird company. Sony are already inth eSmartPhone market in the US - but they use Symbian on that product line.

China (and India) have economies that are booming. Whats the population in China compared to that in the US? Not as affluent overall, but it is virgin territory. First company in with the product that grabs the populations attention will win (and be copied, reversed engineered, and cloned within 12 months).

Announcing a deal with Chinese companies is big news. China (and Taiwan) produce a lot of the products you see ... who makes your motherboard, and video card?



~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: PalmSource already desperate for new licensees..
hkklife @ 6/2/2004 4:59:42 PM #
It's a shame Acer/BenQ is sort of a has-been in the US retail PC & peripheral market. Had they gotten onboard 5 years or so ago, they could have handled the low-end Palm market at the time while Palm & HS tackled the midrange & wireless markets and Sony did the high-end multimedia stuff.

In light of the Sony woes, I wonder if Garmin will be announcing an iQue v.2 in the near future--either a slimmed-down, beffed-up OS5 model or wait until the fall for an OS6 unit? What an '04 we're having-BBuy drops everything but the cheap Palms and now Sony.

Do I smell Linux in the air?

mikecane @ 6/2/2004 11:32:08 AM #
Imagine now if Sharp got off its complacent butt and really *did* something with their Zaurus line -- like plug all the holes that make it too hard for everyday people to use.

Perhaps in the future all remaining PDAs will run Linux.

You are tuned to PalmOS Death Watch: Day Two...

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
Foo Fighter @ 6/2/2004 4:16:43 PM #
If you are, it must have a rather pungent odor. Like the smell of roadkill on a hot summer highway. Quite frankly QT Linux is garbage. When I first played with a Sharp Zaurus I was amazed at how well designed the hardware is, or was. But I was immediately put off by the software/OS. Slow, horribly clunky UI...even worse than old Windows CE. And then there is the that whole lack of applications issue. Sorry but Linux has a loooooooooooooong way to go before it's usable for the masses. That's why Zaurus will never move beyond the Linux fan base.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
mikecane @ 6/2/2004 5:37:02 PM #
I *did* say "imagine" there, Foo!

Now, where's that Linxued PDA from (snicker!) Royal?

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
abosco @ 6/2/2004 6:11:46 PM #
>>Imagine now if Sharp got off its complacent butt and really *did* something with their Zaurus line

Like license Palm OS and bring their awesome hardware an equally awesome OS.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

Abandon Linux for Palm OS? Easier! Shoot its brains out
Winter_ @ 6/3/2004 3:52:26 AM #
When I first played with a Sharp Zaurus I was amazed at how well designed the hardware is, or was. But I was immediately put off by the software/OS.

Man, that could have been the description of my horror after getting to know the T3.


Like license Palm OS and bring their awesome hardware an equally awesome OS.

Where should I begin...
Are you calling Palm OS "awesome" in comparison to Linux? (they shouldn't even be on the same sentence, for Dog's sake)
Are you expecting the people that chose a Linux PDA to forget what their hardware can do and get instead a crippled, crippling OS?
Are you expecting the developers that put Linux into a PDA to forget what their hardware can do and just make it look lobotomized?
Zaurus has THE awesome OS. What it is missing is the GUI... and I'll love to see what they do with some more time. Because PalmOS has had quite more time and effort put into it than Linux on the PDA, so of course it still has to mature.

And then there is the that whole lack of applications issue.

Well, yeah. Though they have a PDF reader that works, not the horrid half-baked thingie that is Acrobat Reader for Palm.
And they have media players, don't they?
And hey, they have games.
And some productivity tools (not only PIMs)
And Java.
And... erm, let's see what can we find today on www.sourceforge.net, for example.
Oh, and it all is free - and open source, so you can make it better if you feel like! Even drivers!

However, since it's a Linux, what about running the Palm emulator on the Zaurus? You can only run a Palm OS 4 device (for now), but that should be enough for lots of things. In fact, I'd like to be able to do that on my OS 5 T3, since I can't run some commercial OS4-only programs (TomTom CityMaps). Commercial software isn't always the solution - mainly when some important software is being created (first at least) for the PocketPC.

(Abosco, you said recently that using that way the emulator was "illegal" or something like that. I asked you why and never got an answer. Let's say I want to develop for the Palm OS on the Zaurus - looks like the device is perfectly capable of such a thing, since you can use there from the compiler to the emulator. Remember, that's a public Palm-provided emulator, using public Palm-provided ROMs - or I could even use a pair I have access to. So, why illegal?)



That's why Zaurus will never move beyond the Linux fan base.

Or beyond the hardware-conscious base (you MUST be a Palm OS fan to avoid feeling sick when being forced to use a T3 -class device as if it was only a color, hi-res, faster OS4 device)

I don't know about Cobalt, but certainly Palm OS 5 looks like a good idea for smartphones and REALLY limited devices - and nothing more. Imagine the original Palm OS developers being told that their OS would be used on 400 MHz, 64 MB, 480x320 devices... I'd love to see their faces. What would they say? "Yeah, it's the right OS for that"? Or perhaps "Oh my god, that's nonsense"?

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
mikecane @ 6/3/2004 9:01:34 AM #
Yeah, the Linuxed Zaurus is so great. You wouldn't find a *PalmOS* site with this name -- unless in JEST.

http://play.datalude.com/blog/blogs/zaurus.php

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
mikecane @ 6/3/2004 9:02:56 AM #
And did you happen to read that opening?

"It's been a while. Actually I find myself in the position of not having used the Zaurus for about a month: as it doesn't really work very well as a PDA, I don't find any reason to use it every day. This is a pattern you can observe in other Zaurus blogs: an initial frenzy of posting, followed by the disillusionment phase."

Thank you for playing. Next!

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
Winter_ @ 6/3/2004 9:34:03 AM #
I said the OS and the capabilities are there; the GUI isn't. PDA-wise, at least.
(That's why I also said that I'll love to see what they can do with some more time to mature. Perhaps you should read better before answering, or at least not get into DEFCON1 that quick.)

Palm OS is exactly the other way round. GUI OK, everything else terrible - for a T3-class device at least.

Thank you for playing. Next!

Are you trying to be like Facey? :P

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
Foo Fighter @ 6/3/2004 9:52:52 AM #
LOL! Nice nested URL. /smells/smellier/smelliest/smells.hmtl

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
Foo Fighter @ 6/3/2004 9:54:27 AM #
Winter_, you'll never hear me argue PalmOS is robust and highly capable..because it's not. And that is why you hear so much furor over the lack of file systems, limited memory, ect. We all want to see PalmOS brought up to the same level as Symbian and Windows Mobile. Despite all the political rancor, Pocket PC is..in many ways...where PalmOS needs to be. Multitasking, TRUE multimedia capability, REAL file system, more "modern" GUI, etc. Frankly I'm already of the opinion that Cobalt is just hot air. It doesn't go nearly far enough to address our needs. But we'll just have to wait and see. Oh wait! We won't see because Cobalt based hardware will not arrive until late Q4 (read: December 29).

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
mikecane @ 6/3/2004 9:57:21 AM #
>>>I said the OS and the capabilities are there; the GUI isn't.

The GUI is there. The OS is there.

But guess what?

There's this thing called APPLICATIONS!

HancomWord is a fekkin joke. What, you think I never TRIED the bloody buggering thing?

YOU go re-read the sentences from that blog. That's a Z *USER* writing, pal.

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
Winter_ @ 6/3/2004 10:14:11 AM #
Foo: I'm glad to see that not everybody here is PalmOS-shortcomings-blind :P.

I wonder... what would have happened if, instead of getting into the Cobalt plan, PalmSource had adopted Linux and put all that Cobalt effort on tweaking and tuning the GUI and overall user experience? At the same time, they could keep the Palm OS 4 compatibility by just embedding the emulator on the OS, not unlike what OS 5 does right now. Wouldn't that be a winner?

Mikecane: You think the GUI is OK? well, perhaps that's the first time I hear that. Even the blog you pointed out complains about it. Go re-read it. :P
(one excerpt: After about a minute, the interface is entirely unusable.)

Applications? Yeah, there are few (none?) commercial apps. Whatever you don't find open source, you can use on the Palm OS emulator. :)
And for all the things that aren't on the Palm, you still have Linux there. :>


RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
mikecane @ 6/3/2004 11:15:07 AM #
I loved the Z hardware. Dedicated Menu button. Being able to do virtually *everything* with those front buttons and "D-Pad" (or whatever it's called). The slide-out keyboard. Great machine. NO apps. And what apps there are, are a nightmare to install. I've read Z user reports.

PalmOS shortcomings?! They are LEGION! And Cobalt won't fix nearly half of them. In fact, Cobalt adds more.



RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
abosco @ 6/4/2004 12:16:40 AM #
>>(Abosco, you said recently that using that way the
>>emulator was "illegal" or something like that. I asked
>>you why and never got an answer. Let's say I want to
>>develop for the Palm OS on the Zaurus - looks like the
>>device is perfectly capable of such a thing, since you
>>can use there from the compiler to the emulator.
>>Remember, that's a public Palm-provided emulator, using
>>public Palm-provided ROMs - or I could even use a pair
>>I have access to. So, why illegal?)

Do I look like a lawyer? Palm's lawyers got wind of the project while it was still in alpha and threatened a lawsuit on the developers, and they dropped it very quickly. It doesn't promote competition when you can run a competing system on your own - and without licensing fees.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
Winter_ @ 6/4/2004 5:19:12 AM #
This is nonsense.

Do I look like a lawyer?

I don't know what you look like. I only know you said that using POSE on Linux is illegal (the Zaurus is just a particular case of that, isn't it?). I found that quite strange since both POSE for Linux and the ROMs are provided by Palm on their website. So I asked for your sources.

You can check my sources here:
http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools/emulator/

You'll find there the links to Unix ports (source code!) and the links to the ROMs.
Note that POSE is even a standard package for Debian Linux, which IIRC is the one used on the Zaurus. So it can be installed with just a command line order.

You can also see the exact Zaurus QPOSE page.
http://www.climov.com/zaurus/qpose/
The last update there was on 2002; but that's the same for the official Palm page. So I don't see hints of legal problems there.

Just for completeness: do you think using an "illegal program" (whose source code for Linux is publicly available) on a GCC-equipped Zaurus would be a terrible problem?


RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
mikecane @ 6/5/2004 10:20:55 AM #
BTW, Softmaker has announced Textmaker for Zaurus (I forget at the moment if it is alpha or beta). Whatever happened to that *PalmOS* version, eh?

It'll be interesting to see just how useful Textmaker on a Z can be -- since *no one* has ever been able to answer my question about how the hell to get fonts into that Z! (I was once on a Z mail list and asked there and was suffocated by the silence of ignorance.)

RE: Do I smell Linux in the air?
Winter_ @ 6/5/2004 12:24:38 PM #
Just Googling for "zaurus truetype" leads to this:

http://docs.zaurus.com/index.php?id=ttf_conversion

http://doc.trolltech.com/2.3/fonts-qws.html

Had you already tried those pages?

(for completeness sake: the first links found lead to japanese pages. I don't understand - much :) - japanese, but the title on one included the words... and there I found these two other links in clear romaji ;).

Apart from that: are you sure there is no some direct way to install font sets from dpkg or something like that?

Nokia gets nod over PalmOne

Gekko @ 6/2/2004 2:13:02 PM #
Nokia gets nod over PalmOne
Consumers chose smartphones over handheld computers as their mobile computers in 1Q, survey shows.
June 1, 2004: 9:44 AM EDT

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Nokia has overtaken PalmOne as the world's top seller of mobile computers in the first quarter, as consumers chose smartphones over handheld computers to organize their lives, a survey showed Tuesday.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/01/technology/nokia_palmone.reut


More from Gartner

mikecane @ 6/2/2004 5:42:01 PM #

Not too shocked...

Pepper @ 6/2/2004 8:43:24 PM #
Well, okay, I suppose I'm a little shocked. Not terribly though. Sadly, PDAs seem to be fading (I know, not something I would like to think about, either) while portable computers are gaining popularity. Just recently I was thinking about Sony's new pen-based, portable computer. The U50 and 70 run Windows XP with the specs of a laptop and yet carry the form of a PDA. Not sure how such a resolution would treat my eyes, but I'll figure that out later. Interestingly enough, those come out in June (Oh my, is it June already? Hmm...). Perhaps Sony is putting their money into full scale computing in a PDA scale form.

Anyways, not sure I support or oppose Sony's decision. There is a place for everything in this world. Perhaps Sony's place wasn't really in PDAs. They began well enough, but ultimately took too much for granted. And now, they're adjusting.

We'll see how things work out in the long run, but for now let's just enjoy the changing scenery of mobile computing.

-Pepper

I love my Palm . . . do you?

I don't understand people who buy smartphones

zlogic @ 6/3/2004 2:01:24 AM #
I don't understand people who buy smartphones - they're bulky, and they usually do one function better - either of the PDA or of the phone. Entering text on a phone keyboard is really frustrating and if there's a touchscreen you'll press it with your ear while talking.
I think BlueTooth is much better - if you have a BT PDA, a BT phone and a BT handsfree, you don't even have to look at the phone!
As for Sony WinXP small tablets - they'll stink. Can you imagine a Windows desktop on a 4-inch display? And if it's bigger you can't simply get it out of your pocket and hold it in one hand.
If you haven't read it you should definetly see the Zenof Palm document:
http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/zenofpalm.pdf
I've used 3 Palm devices, then went PocketPC and then returned to Palm. The PPC was so slow and buggy that starting an simple application could take up to a minute: first it crashed, then I had to reset it while removing the card because otherwise it would try to boot from it, then insert the card at thó right moment so that the icons from the card apps wouldn't be spoiled, then lauch the app and wait while it's loaded.
PalmSource as well as PalmOne are doing an excellent job so that when you use a PDA you don't have to think about the way it works.
I don't think it's the end because it's like Apple: they make the software for their hardware, and I don't think they're desperately looking for someone who would lisence MacOS.
It's a shame though that Palm doesn't work with Apple, because they are somewhat the same. Instead of offering devices with huge RAM, big CPU clock numbers etc they offer stuff which does it task as well as possible.
RE: I don't understand people who only see one perspective
;-(( @ 6/3/2004 2:34:47 AM #
Fact: Size matters

Fact: Most people (though not all) prefer to carry smaller/less equipment if given a choice

Fact: A well designed smartphone (like the Treo 600) can do what MOST people do with both their PDA and cellphone MOST of the time - without too many sacrifices.

Fact: Well designed smarthphones beat separates in terms of convenience.

Fact: The standalone PDA market is imploding* (*oft-repeated self-fulfilling prophecy that is now a reality)

Fact: Sometimes, for some situations, for some individuals having the larger screen offered by a separate PDA is necessary

Fact: Sometimes, for some situations, for some individuals having the smallest possible cellphone is necessary

Fact: I'm always right and you're always wrong

Fact: you need to be a lot more open minded

Fact: after using a Treo 600, I decided separate PDA + cellphone was a much better solution. For me.

Vive le difference!

Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,

RE: I don't understand people who buy smartphones
SeldomVisitor @ 6/3/2004 6:43:54 AM #
> ...Fact: after using a Treo 600, I decided separate
> PDA + cellphone was a much better solution...

It is my personal belief that PalmOne has decided that, too.

They redefined the term "converged device" to allow MULTIPLE SEPARATE DEVICES merely communicating with each other (!!!).

I personally believe they did so for a reason.

RE: I don't understand people who troll
;-o @ 6/3/2004 8:24:20 AM #
Palm realized they would never again make a profit from standalone PDAs, so they've thrown all of their eggs into the smartphone basket. Unfortunately, there was a big hole in the basket made by the steep price of entry. ($300 - $600 for a smartphone will never fly.)

Palm is NOT going to retreat to pushing standalones again. They've run out of ideas to make PalmOS profitible and reinventing themselves (again) won't work. They needed a bailout from Sont a year ago, but it never happened. The slow death spiral has started and cannot be stopped.




You like me! You really like me!

RE: I don't understand people who buy smartphones
ackmondual @ 6/9/2004 9:17:26 PM #
"Fact: I'm always right and you're always wrong

Fact: you need to be a lot more open minded"

These seem to contradict each other. It would seem YOU would need to be a lot more open minded as well

.

"Fact: after using a Treo 600, I decided separate PDA + cellphone was a much better solution. For me."

I agree here... for me as well. I already got a nice big, color screen on my Zire as well as lots of games, music, PIMs, and other useful software. My bland B&W cell phone does what it needs to: Make phone calls. Plus, I got a good deal too. Free phone, $25 a month for 500 minues after $180 rebate

[signature0]the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse[/signature0]
[signature1]My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71.... so ends the "marathon", for now[/signature1]

Is the PDA dead?

mikecane @ 6/3/2004 9:19:24 AM #
http://news.com.com/2009-1025_3-5224632.html?tag=nefd.proinc

History will show that PDAs were nothing but a bag of compromises until devices such as the OQO debuted.

The Average Joe is *really* gonna sit there and put up with the BS of converting things to DOCs? Or, on the PPC side, put with up formatting and content being lost in Word documents?

Not only is PalmOS dead, so is Windows Mobile for PPC (WM for Smartphone was stillborn).

It remains to be seen if Apple will try for a Pocket Mac.

RE: Is the PDA dead?
Altema @ 6/3/2004 11:47:27 AM #
What "conversion" are you talking about Mike? My wife has hundreds of documents on her Palm and does not even know how to convert anything. She had her first device for about 3 months before she even knew it had a battery!

RE: Is the PDA dead?
AyDb @ 6/3/2004 10:32:13 PM #
History will show that PDAs were nothing but a bag of compromises until devices such as the OQO debuted.

You're smoking crack. Pocket desktops like the OQO are huge, have zero battery life, extremely inconvenient form-factors, and suffer from an interface not at all intended for a pad-based mobile computer. They are far more a 'bag of compromises' than any Palm or PPC.

And could people please give up this "PDAs are dead, smartphones are the future" bulls--t? Yes, handheld sales slumped 12% this quarter compared to last, *IF* you don't count the Treo 600. However, they were coming off a RECORD holiday season. And smartphones are not so smart--they're poorly implemented, expensive, incapable, and inconvenient. Even the T600, the best smartphone available, still sucks compared to a proper handheld. This is exactly like the "laptops are dead, tablets are the future" bulls--t that was going on a couple years ago. They might work for a few people that only need basic organization, but they're too expensive for the low-end users, too inconvenient for the mid-range users, and too weak for the power users. Exactly like tablet PCs. And in a couple of years, no one's going to buy the smartphone BS anymore either.

RE: Is the PDA dead?
Foo Fighter @ 6/3/2004 11:30:09 PM #
What's the matter, is all this "PDA's are dead" talk making you nervous? It should.

-------------------------------
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Is the PDA dead?
Rome @ 6/4/2004 12:24:51 AM #
So, when are we going to get a UNIX-based desktop for the general public? Doesn't UNIX run great on mainframes?

I just can't wait to get my hands on a desktop that offers UNIX's famous scalability and reliability.

You heard it here first - UNIX will destroy Windows-based desktops in 3 years, and PDA in 5.

RE: Is the PDA dead?
palmhiker @ 6/4/2004 3:25:20 PM #
I can see some appeal to the OQO-type device, once the cost comes down considerably.

However, unless they (M$) can find a way to provide instant on with no boot-up, I just can't see them replacing a PDA. I quickly turn my PDA on to reference something or make a note about 40 times a day. I don't see myself doing that with any Win device that exists today.

RE: Is the PDA dead?
mikecane @ 6/5/2004 10:24:09 AM #
>>>I quickly turn my PDA on to reference something or make a note about 40 times a day.

Exchange "PDA" for "smartphone" and you'll still be doing that. OQOs are for *work* -- the kinda stuff PDAs *suck* at: video, word processing, spreadhseets, etc. Turn it on, settle in, and do something for more than a few minutes or several Graffiti inputs.

RE: Is the PDA dead? (Unix on the desktop)
Winter_ @ 6/10/2004 5:39:14 AM #
I don't know if you were joking or being sarcastic...
...but Mac OS X is a Unix (of the BSD family), and Apple is being praised for having finally put Unix on the desktop computer of the general user.

(it can be pretty impressive to think that these toy-like iMacs are actually full Unix machines... :)

RE: Is the PDA dead?
RoadKnight @ 7/1/2004 2:39:34 AM #
The OQO looks interesting, but paperback format PCs have been around for a number of years. A faster processor, 802.11 and Bluetooth are nice, but not astounding, and you can't even buy one yet. I've seen the OQO guys walking around with their "functional prototype" since 2001 and it still hasn't shipped.

Osborne Executive, XBOX, Daikatana, Longhorn,
Meet the OQO.

palmOne rising?

zlogic @ 6/3/2004 9:28:43 AM #
RE: palmOne rising?
mikecane @ 6/3/2004 9:47:27 AM #
>>>I think they'll buy PalmSource when they drop more =)

Got it in one.


Figures....

vesther @ 6/11/2004 10:32:03 PM #
Clie handhelds were always overpriced on the way beginning. Besides, some Palm-Powered licensees are starting to match and/or exceed Sony in certain areas, which ensures that the Clie is no longer an enthusiast alternative to handhelds that can catch up with multimedia and such.

A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.
RE: Figures....
lorenolson @ 6/30/2004 8:02:09 PM #
Clie handhelds overpriced, then you must mean that Palm handhelds are also overpriced????? Lets see TJ37 at $299.00 with somewhat the same features as the Zire 72 but with WiFi instead of Bluetooth. Looks about even doesn't it?????

RE: Figures....
vesther @ 7/5/2004 11:03:06 PM #
Dunno about a Zire 72 being equipped with Wi-Fi, but are you predicting a Wi-Fi-ready Zire into a Zire 81, with a built-in Keyboard and Intel Mobile Centrino technology implemented within?

I think PalmOne was more price-aware than Sony was. In fact, no matter what Clie you purchased, you're actually paying for the Sony name too.

Sooner or later, all Palm-Powered Handhelds running under Intel's PXA27X line of processors need to implement Centrino Technology in addition to Intel's XScale technology and Intel's WMMX.

RE: Figures....
lorenolson @ 7/6/2004 10:52:03 AM #
No way I am predicting anything like that. But, if you take an TJ37 and compare it with the Zire you come out somewhat even plus or minus a couple of things such as voice notes and things like that. When you went up in Sony's line, yes they were expensive. That said I am not sure how overpriced they were however.

Top