MobileInfocenter

Comments on: Steve Jobs on the Treo and Apple PDA

Apple CEO Steve Jobs made a number of comments about PDAs today at a conference in California. According to sources, he remarked that he was proud of not shipping an Apple branded PDA.
Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (64 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Comments Closed Comments Closed
This article is no longer accepting new comments.

Down

Jerk

Gekko @ 6/7/2004 6:38:02 PM #
Steve Jobs is a Jerk

RE: Jerk
ackmondual @ 6/7/2004 6:54:33 PM #
could it be that he figured there was little to no profibility in this industry? Alot of ppl r saying accessories make up much of the revnue for PDAs, which alot of ppl don't get much of.

[signature0]the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse[/signature0]
[signature1]My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71.... so ends the "marathon", for now[/signature1]
RE: Jerk
elo @ 6/7/2004 7:18:22 PM #
Why, because he likes the Treo? Not every company has to make every product.

elo

RE: Jerk
Mandroid @ 6/7/2004 7:41:28 PM #
For what it's worth, Jobs has long held a belief that pure PDAs just aren't a major market (one of the reasons that one of the first things he did was to fold Newton Inc. back into Apple and then kill it off, one of the things I still can't forgive him for).

On one hand I think it sucks, because I would love to have a new Newton or an Apple branded PDA..... but on the other hand, when I look at how many companies seem to be struggling in the PDA market, I am not sure he's totally off-base.

Personally, I am a big fan of PDA's, but at the same time, it's hard to ignore all the analysts and stories indicating that pure PDA's seem to be falling off and people are more interested in specialized devices, or phones with PDA capabilities.

So, I don't think Jobs was completely offbase. I still wish Newton Inc. could have stayed around, and I would have loved to have seen a Newton 3000....... but at the same time, I have to acknowledge that if Newton Inc. was still around, they most likely would have gone the way of Be or something. The Newton OS was brilliant (and frankly, I still find it to be more elegant than some of what the current Palm OS and PocketPC OS'es do), but brilliance alone never helped the Newton take off.

-Mandroid

RE: Jerk
RhinoSteve @ 6/8/2004 11:10:10 PM #
Knowing Steve, he would take that as a complement.

Steve has never cashed in following treads. He has cashed in making trends and he has the personality cult following him to prove it. His days studying Herman Gobels in Berkeley Psychology community in the 70s has really been applied. Ok, so he is no charasmatic facist leader of a country ... but boy did he apply that leadership style to technology.

Steve Jobs fans can flame about "Their Fuhrer" to me as much as they want. I should be amusing.

RE: Jerk
batmon @ 6/10/2004 3:10:49 AM #
Of course he thinks PDA and Tero has no profit. He is selling iPod at $300~$500, plus $1.00 per song, and the iPod is Mono with no touch screen. On the other hand, PDA is selling for $99~$400 with all the pricy hardware in it.

This is comsumer's falut, man. I just don't understand why people buying $300 iPod instead of buying cheap $99 Palm PDA. PDA can do more, bigger screen, and etc etc. Just use the rest of the $200 you have to buy more SD memories.



RE: Jerk (substituting iPod with a PDA???)
Winter_ @ 6/10/2004 5:01:31 AM #
plus $1.00 per song

Reportedly there's (almost) no margin for Apple there.

and the iPod is Mono

I sure hope you mean monochrome, not monophonic... (that would be too gross :P)

This is comsumer's falut, man. I just don't understand why people buying $300 iPod instead of buying cheap $99 Palm PDA. PDA can do more, bigger screen, and etc etc. Just use the rest of the $200 you have to buy more SD memories.

What a uninformed, brain-dead comparison. Let's see...

iPod with biggest hard drive= $499 (40 GB)
iPod Mini = $249 (4 GB))
SD card 512MB = $97 (I'm going cheap!)
We'll want 8 cards to reach the 4 GB of the iPod Mini. That's $776. So tell me where do you get those negatively-priced PDAs, man. :P

Plus, tell me how to put the music on the cards. Surely not by Hotsync, huh? that's TERRIBLY slow, much slower than USB speed. So you should put there some program like Card Export for the Palm. But even saturating USB, you'll get a speed of about a 4x CD drive (600 KB/s). So perhaps you'll want a Firewire (or at least USB2) card reader too (about 33 times faster than USB).

Meanwhile, the iPod sports a Firewire connection (and USB2). The iPod's hard drive won't reach that speed, but reportedly you can upload at about (6 MB/s). (and no flipping of SD cards - one of the advantages of the iPod is that you can take all your music with you, and jumpt randomly thru your entire collection without skipping a beat)

Then, you have the capability to boot your computer from the iPod, or use it as a simple (and fast) external drive...

And, finally (but important on a music device), you'll surely want a case, a belt clip... those are included on the iPod.



RE: Jerk
batmon @ 6/10/2004 6:04:40 AM #
I don't know... I would rather have a PDA for all the additional features. Surely I am not able to get 40GB SD card for the price, but I don't think I wanna download 10,000 songs and pay $10,000 for all the songs!! Plus, I do gain other features like games, apps, tansfer file, cotact list, and etc along with music and video players. And yes, I can transfer through USB, or even wireless...

If I want a pure music "walkman", I think I will go with MiniDisc. one disc is like less then $2 for 80min, and you can compress it upto 4X to get 320min of music for $2. Plus, MiniDisc is small and USB transfers too...



RE: Jerk
Winter_ @ 6/10/2004 7:44:42 AM #
but I don't think I wanna download 10,000 songs and pay $10,000 for all the songs!!

But you could put your entire CD collection there.
If you want less space, you can get a smaller iPod. I already pointed out to the 4Gb iPod mini.
But, more importantly, it doubles exactly as a FAST, bootable external hard drive. So you're free to use that space for whatever you want.

And yes, I can transfer through USB

You CAN, of course. But Firewire is one of the differences that make the iPod glow.

or even wireless...

That's the only advantage of the PDA - if you mean WiFi, of course, because Bluetooth will be less than 20 KB/s - hardly enough for streaming.

But then let's get sure you have the WiFi adapter for your computer, or add that to the price, huh?


Plus, I do gain other features like games, apps, tansfer file, cotact list, and etc along with music and video players.

Of course, those are advantages for the PDA. Just don't even try to say that any current PDA (even more so PalmOS devices) used as a MP3 player is a match for an iPod... as I have had to learn the hard way :P

If I want a pure music "walkman", I think I will go with MiniDisc. one disc is like less then $2 for 80min, and you can compress it upto 4X to get 320min of music for $2.

I've heard you can't compare the 4x LP format to AAC or MP3. I'm not sure about the 2x.

So let's assume the 2x is enough quality (though supposedly 1x is already like MP3 or AAC). That's 160 minutes of music, or 40 4-minute songs by the metrics used on the iPod merchandising. Now, the iPod mini can carry 1000 of those songs, so you'll need 25 minidiscs. That will be $50, that's good... except for the bag you'll need to carry. And what about a data disk option? and transfer speed?

(note that we are leaving aside the various nasties related to the ATRAC format, like enforced limits, conversions, quality... or have they got any better in these last 2 years?)

RE: Jerk
mikecane @ 6/10/2004 8:19:26 AM #
>>>I don't think I wanna download 10,000 songs and pay $10,000 for all the songs

Oy vey.

RE: Jerk
Winter_ @ 6/10/2004 8:25:25 AM #
However, about PDA-like functionality, look at this...
http://www.apple.com/ipod/behindthewheel.html

Of course it's read-only, but perhaps enough for some people... Dunno.

RE: MD
JonathanChoo @ 6/10/2004 12:57:54 PM #
My 3 year old Sony Minidisc MZ-E900 can blurt out music for 40 hours non-stop (serious!). And it was with the stock 1400mAh NiMH gum battery that came with the player when I bought it - 3 years ago! 40 hours means I can listen on the tube on the way to Heathrow (30 minutes), waiting in the airport for 3 hours, in the plane for 12 hours and for the return leg without bringing weird chargers.

Sure it can't put 10,000 songs in it, but 40 is enough for me (2x) and I don't keep 10,000 songs on my PC just for the sake of it. I got much better stuff (digital TV broadcast) to fill my 2x 200Gb thingy. At the most I carry 4 MDs with me in my bag, two for compilations of British grindcore (John Peel's BBC Radio 1 sessions) and two latest album of whatever I just bought (current: Supergrass and er...The Corrs). MDs are so cheap, when one gets broken I can just chuck them out. What will you do if your 40Gb iPod's harddrive breaks down after 2 years?

And the MZ-E900's design is a classic. No wonder Aiwa's (Sony) new harddrive based mp3 HZ-WS2000 player looks curiously similar to the E900. At 68g (similar to my E900) that is way lighter than most Harddrive mp3 players. I might just be tempted to ditch MDs. Too bad the battery life is just 8 hours. Until then I will stick with PDAs or my E900 to listening portable music.

--
Psion 5> Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > T/T > HP h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac 75 > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630

RE: Jerk
batmon @ 6/10/2004 3:36:40 PM #
Yeah, I am a MD fan too. It is big in Asia, I am not sure why it's not popular in US. Sony also came out with the new Hi-MD, it can be used as data storage too for 1GB in stroage space. Also, it's comp. with the old MD disc, and can format them to 300MB or so.

Did I mention those MD are pretty too? :-p

RE: Jerk
Winter_ @ 6/10/2004 4:23:41 PM #
Now that you mention... when I got the T3, I thought a 256 MB card would be more than enough for music, since generally any normal day I don't carry 4 albums with me. Well, in fact it's not enough anymore. When I was constrained to cassettes and CDs, lack of choice was a given (too cumbersome to start making different recopilations - I tried). Now, MP3 on the T3 are nice, but being able to put there 4 "best-for-today's-mood" albums and tomorrow just swap two of them only starts the hunger for flexibility... so now I'm getting to understand why having all these darn CDs on a single repository could be interesting. Funny that lots of iPod reviews mention just that.

And I (still?) don't feel like buying multiple SDs just for music... it's hard, thinking that for that price I can buy tons of CDRWs.

You haven't answered how is the ATRAC format and such going. I really wanted to buy a MD player about 2 years ago, but the nasty DRM politics convinced me to better get a simple MP3 CD player. I'll try to get the info... next time I want to buy something for music.
(...certainly not a PDA! :P)

RE: Jerk
JonathanChoo @ 6/11/2004 5:30:24 AM #
Winter:

I bought my first MD player 5 years ago, the beautiful Panasonic SJMJ70 (this thing still look stunningly better designed that the iPod) during the time where mp3 market was dominated by Rio with 32 and 64Mb players, so it made sense to get MDs. Who knows, if Rio released a 1Gb mp3 player then maybe I would never have invested in MDs.

I managed to squeeze 120 tracks on my 512Mb card on my h4150 in ogg format (64kbps). Uses around 200Mb. There is a 80Mb ogg file of Sara Cox's last BBC Radio One show as I missed it when it was aired.

ATRAC's DRM format does not bother me since I don't use NetMD and I don't copy MD to MD. Even then there are MD decks that can copy pure MD to MD with no loss in quality. I also own original CDs and won't bother investing in online music. Why should I pay for 128kbps compressed mp3 tracks when CD prices are dropping in the UK and I can get original (not pirated) CDs for 3 in Asia. What if I want to switch to another music format? I need to convert the mp3 to wav then to anoter format resulting in loss of quality.

I don't mind investing in a NetMD since I heard transfering the a album from a PC only takes a few minutes. Once 1Gb MDs blanks drop to 1 then I would upgrade my MD player. But PDA as a mp3 player is fine by me for days where I really don't need alot of music. And it still can't beat the combined 70 hours of battery life on my MZ-E900 (with clip on AA battery)!

Batmon:

Yeah, MDs are nice 'collectable art'. I have loads of those special limited edition MDs by Sony and TDK XS-iV made few years ago.

--
Psion 5> Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > T/T > HP h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac 75 > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630

RE: Jerk
jrod @ 6/11/2004 9:31:53 PM #
The IPod and PDAs aren't competitors, as some of you are making it sound like. Ifyou have 1000s of songs or want a pricey, stylish external hard drive, a IPod is for you, but if, like me, you want one thing that can do a little of everything, a pda is for you.
RE: Jerk
ThePolack @ 6/13/2004 3:05:10 PM #
It's not really important whether or not Jobs is a jerk. What's important is that he's right. The Newton lost money. If it were released again today with improved capabilities, it would still lose money. Sony's dropping out of the PDA business (smart move). Handspring was bought out. That leaves just PalmOne and the various Windows CE manufacturers. And the remaining PDA makers are all struggling.

Seems like the smart thing to do is stay the hell out of the PDA market. It's a niche device, and one that has a limited time left in the market place. PDA technology (like the Palm OS) may continue on in some form, but the PDA device itself is very quickly losing ground to better ideas.

The iPod is one such idea. People want portable music players. They were buying portable music devices long before the iPod came around. It's a massive worldwide market. Not everyone who owns a computer wants or needs a PDA (in fact very few people do). But just about everyone who owns a computer has a portable CD player, MD player or MP3 player. It's a larger market and the iPod is the best-designed device of its kind. I personally think it's a bit pricey, but I'd still own one if I could afford it.

Meanwhile, my Palm device which I used to depend on to get me through every day for years is now sitting on my desk gathering dust. My phone has all my conact and calendar info, my laptop has everything else (which I really don't need to take with me everywhere). If my Palm were half as good an MP3 player as an iPod, maybe then I'd have a reason to still use it. As it stands, it hasn't really been touched in a year.

Apple was wise to stay away from PDAs. Other companies should follow their lead.

HiMD = COOL~
batmon @ 6/24/2004 11:45:11 PM #
I think this will help. Basically MD, and espeically Hi-MD have better sound quality. Plus, it's cheaper, looks nicer, use much less power, etc etc... :-)

http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=3950



Read Tween Lines

borgiaX @ 6/7/2004 8:28:52 PM #
I have the feeling that apple may have investigated the PDA market, made a mockup and found it wanting. Job's comments seem to suggest that part of wisdom/management is the road not taken. Think of it like a batter in baseball, he can swing at every pitch, or he can try to outthink and wait out the pitcher.
I have to admit though, I wish Apple had swung.
Even with competition from Sony, Palm has innovated just enough to keep up, not to pull away from the pack.
Piloting Palm & Newton
hotpaw4 @ 6/7/2004 9:51:47 PM #
According to the book "Piloting Palm", Steve made inquiries about either buying or investing in both Palm and Handspring at different points in time. If this was not to build a traditional PDA, perhaps it was because he thought that portions of PDA technology would be useful for some other category of product (media player or ???).

As for the Newton MessagePad, it was a major money loser for Apple. Technology has barely caught up with what would have been necessary for something like the MessagePad to actually be a profitable product.

ipod / hybrid

burnkit @ 6/7/2004 11:35:14 PM #
The iPod practically is a PDA with a huge harddrive. Why can't Apple just add a stylus to the ipod so you can add contacts and calendar events.

RE: ipod / hybrid
chanchan @ 6/8/2004 8:56:19 AM #
Apple probably won't add a stylus and call it day on the iPod because it doesn't have a touch screen, duh!

RE: ipod / hybrid
ray00pal @ 6/8/2004 11:10:59 PM #
Plus Apple's PDA are 2-4 times lareger in size then the iPod, duh...

RE: ipod / hybrid
Calroth @ 6/10/2004 10:18:14 PM #
Why can't it work the other way?

Put a hard drive in a PDA.

Hard drives are tiny, these days. 1.8 inches. You could fit one inside a PDA enclosure without much difficulty. (Maybe that is overstating it. But PDAs are small these days; they can afford to make them a bit larger. Perhaps get rid of the SD slot, although that will be unpopular.)

Treat the hard drive as a VFS volume, and every music player for Palm OS will read it out-of-the-box.

We already have third-party software to mount SD cards on the desktop. These should also work with a hard drive without much difficulty. Although USB 1.1 is sloooow.

If you are keeping the SD slot, write a program to transfer the contents of the SD card to the hard drive, so that you can take heaps of photos with your digital camera, transfer them to the Palm, and take more photos. (This is what the Belkin Media Reader does for iPod, but it's a third-party add-on. This would be standard.)

RE: ipod / hybrid
;-(( @ 6/10/2004 11:19:48 PM #
Put a hard drive in a PDA.

If you have a TRGpro, you would have already been able to do this for several years. IBM's CompactFlash-sized MicroDrives work quite well.

If Palm was an innovative company, they would have put out a PDA like the CLIE UX-50 but incorporating the T screen and both CompactFlash and SD slots. Bundled with Word and Excel-compatible apps, an email app, a browser, Bluetooth and 802.11b, they could position it as an instant-on laptop replacement. The idea of these "Palmtops" could have reinvigorated Palm's PDA marketplace. Instead, they seem content to continue losing money selling cheaper and cheaper quality PDAs.

Had Toshiba become a Palm licensee, I believe such a "Palmtop" would have been their first product. It probably would have sold well to corporate customers.


Go ahead. Try it.



RE: ipod / hybrid
Winter_ @ 6/11/2004 5:29:21 AM #
Hard drives are tiny, these days. 1.8 inches.

The problem is, PDAs are tiny too... like you say some lines afterwards. I guess the designers that worked to make them that way will recoil in horror seeing that you want to make them a bit bigger.

You could fit one inside a PDA enclosure without much difficulty. (Maybe that is overstating it. But PDAs are small these days; they can afford to make them a bit larger.

Yeah, it's quite easy in fact. Get a good knife, open up your PDA, and start making space between all those useless thingies they stuff these PDAs with. Perhaps you'll have to throw away some of the junk. When you feel the hard drive will feel cozy there, just drop it and close again.
That's it, your hard drive is inside your PDA. Now what?

Perhaps get rid of the SD slot, although that will be unpopular.)

Right now, yes, I'll bet it will be unpopular. However that could be an option... some advantages, some disadvantages.
I don't know if I'd buy a CF device, but that's just me.


Steve Jobs was right

Cheetah @ 6/8/2004 1:31:11 AM #
He saw limited BUSINESS potential in making a "me too" product. I wish Apple had made a PDA because I love Apple's designs and refusal to make the lowest common denominator product for the sake of keeping the price down...

But he made the right business decision. I doubt many companies are making significant money in the PDA market (not even Handspring when it most just sold the Treo).

Instead Jobs developed a product where he could lead innovation in a GROWING market. He has defined the PDA and the commercial download market. Now M$ is again copying Apple with their new version of the media player, that is compatible with 30 players EXCEPT the iPod.

Apple is like Micro$oft's R&D facility. Apple innovates, designs, tests, and makes and develops a new market...then M$ moves in with the big guns and copies it.

RE: Steve Jobs was right
budrowilson @ 6/8/2004 3:02:17 AM #
What? Microsoft doesn't innovate?? What about their recent revolutionary "double-click" patent?

:-)

Steve Jobs was pushed out!
RhinoSteve @ 6/11/2004 8:10:51 AM #
You are giving Steve way too much credit. While the guy is a incredable charasmatic leader, a lot of dumb luck has been his way for all of his career. He spoke out while others didn't have the guys to say what was on their mind. Kinda a lot like Ronald Reagan but not as benevolent.

The hard truth is Steve was pretty much not let in the Palm game when it was booming. Jeff and company didn't want him to overshadow and take over from Jeff's iconic leadership. Egos at stake? Hell yes! To this day, I have been told there is a "gentelman's agreement" that Jeff and Steve will never speak at the same trade show nor conference to avoid contending a crowd.

And like Steve is going to write "They didn't let me play with them cause the felt I was too out of control." Steve didn't want to make an enemy of the Palm community and the pre-PalmSource corporate struture had nothing to gain by Apple comming in with their "we lost to Microsoft" stigma that would pollute the Palm brand.

So instead, Steve eyes the MP3 market and goes, "Hmmm ... these whimps making these things don't know software as usual. Ok, I'll see what some engineers can do with an extra $100 in parts" And viola! the iPod was born.

And that's the truth :P

-- Passive Agressive types need not apply.
RE: Steve Jobs was pushed out!
Winter_ @ 6/11/2004 9:24:42 AM #
a lot of dumb luck has been his way for all of his career

It's so easy to agree with such a balanced statement.

So you mean Pixar, NeXT, Apple, all were born out of dumb luck? And the Apple come back too? the iMac, the iPod, OS X?

Well, that for sure is a long string of dumb lucky events.

Now imagine how lucky are the rest of the industry while they copy Apple. Well, in fact they need no luck, only dumb copying.

The hard truth is ...

Hey, where did I see that before?

Egos at stake? Hell yes! To this day, I have been told there is a "gentelman's agreement" that Jeff and Steve will never speak at the same trade show nor conference to avoid contending a crowd.

Very interesting. Now, what does that bring to the subject at hand?
You seem a bit too eager, don't you?

the pre-PalmSource corporate struture had nothing to gain by Apple comming in with their "we lost to Microsoft" stigma that would pollute the Palm brand.

Yeah, well said. That stigma is quite clearly displayed on the iPod. Well, I guess, anyway.

That "polluted" word there gave me creeps. Sounds a bit fanatical, doesn't it? Funny, seeing that the "we're losing to Microsoft" stigma would seem quite extended here.

So instead, Steve eyes the MP3 market and goes, "Hmmm ... these whimps making these things don't know software as usual. Ok, I'll see what some engineers can do with an extra $100 in parts" And viola! the iPod was born.

Yes, the software is exactly the thing that puts apart the iPod from the rest of MP3 players out there. In fact we were talking here about software all the time.

However, looks like you mean that the iPod is a work of engineers. I think that's exactly NOT the case. Last time I checked, looked like the iPod has gone iconic because of the design (specs, interface, looks). Or did I get it wrong?

In fact, I guess lots of companies have tried variations on the "let's throw some new parts there", and none of them succeeded. (Surely they were missing Jobs' dumb luck, huh?)

And that's the truth :P

And now that you have exorcised those inner demons, you can finally have some rest. :P

(Cr)Apple is lucky to be alive.
;-(( @ 6/11/2004 9:36:16 PM #
Yes, the software is exactly the thing that puts apart the iPod from the rest of MP3 players out there. In fact we were talking here about software all the time.

Didn't CrApple outsource the design of the iPod? Do you believe they came up with the OS themselves?

CrApple is still alive because:

1) It's in Microsoft's best interest for them to be around.

Less important reasons include:

2) They have an obedient base of Mac Cult Members to sell their wares to.

3) They are VERY good about style and know the importance of good industrial design in selling consumer electronics. (Apple is essentially the opposite of TRG/HandEra).

4) There will always be a group of Microsoft haters that will do anything to avoid using Windows.

5) Their OS actually isn't all that bad - as long as you're willing to put up with the ever-present problem of trying to find software that runs on Mac.

6) Tangerine iMac. No, it's not about style...

7) They have a fanatical base of Mac Cult Members to sell their wares to.

8) They have a rabid base of Mac Cult Members to sell their wares to.

9) They have a zombified base of Mac Cult Members to sell their wares to.

10) They have a brainwashed base of Mac Cult Members to sell their wares to.



RE: Steve Jobs was right
RhinoSteve @ 6/12/2004 3:31:26 AM #
Winter, you don't know how Apple works on the inside. That is exactly what happened. And yes, Steve is totally full of lots and lots of dumb luck. A handful of guys like that come around every generation. And no, I do not consider it an insult.

And to the guy previously with a real name and now goes by ";-((" you have it right. I'm surprised they don't hand out free Kool-Aide at MacWorld. Steve is a charasmatic leader that follows the great charasmatic dictator styles that J. Edgar Hoover, Hilter, Mossolini, JBL and King James I all did to have a crowd almost mindlessly follow them.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Steve Jobs hasn't made a run for a political office yet. He could become mayor of Cupertino, CA at the drop of a hat if you ask me.

RE: Steve Jobs was right
Winter_ @ 6/12/2004 5:07:40 AM #

Didn't CrApple outsource the design of the iPod? Do you believe they came up with the OS themselves?

Yes, they outsourced it. But, I guess that this furthers my point, not RhinoSteve's. Thanks anyway. ;D

CrApple is still alive because:
1) It's in Microsoft's best interest for them to be around.

Yes, Apple serves them as R&D, and stops a bit the monopoly-related problems.
So what's the point?

3) They are VERY good about style and know the importance of good industrial design in selling consumer electronics. (Apple is essentially the opposite of TRG/HandEra).

Yes, I said that.

4) There will always be a group of Microsoft haters that will do anything to avoid using Windows.

I'd say it's Windows haters that end up hating everything Micro$oft, since their quality standards and related politics are everywhere. It'd be a bit strange just hating Micro$oft for the sake of it, huh?

The funny thing is, they could be using the FREE Linux, or a selection of other FREE OSes, on cheap, Windows capable hardware (so they could just boot up Windows in case on dire need) - and yet they prefer paying for non-Windows capable Apple hardware. So misguided! (But hey, what would you expect from someone hating Micro$oft?)

5) Their OS actually isn't all that bad - as long as you're willing to put up with the ever-present problem of trying to find software that runs on Mac.

Yeah, some software does not even appear on the Mac, so I am forced to look for an alternative. Pity is, a number of times the mac alternative is better, and I end up with no version for Windows.
Then, there are times when there is no Mac alternative for the exact thing I'm doing on the Windows side, so I just fire up VirtualPC - and well, that's it.
And finally, you wouldn't believe what the opensource community has available.

However, it's funny that a PC & PocketPC & Palm user friend of mine joked that, if I was tired of looking for software for "my platform of choice", then I should think twice about getting a PalmOS device... heh.

6) Tangerine iMac. No, it's not about style...

I don't like ANY of the iMacs (well, except for the flower-power one :D). But hey, they work. And hey, they have sold them like there was no tomorrow. So, what's exactly your problem?
Perhaps if PalmOne put out a translucid Bondi-blue device they could sell a bit more? :D
Well, no, forget that one. After all, the whole industry has already fed up with copying the color and shape schemas of the iMac, and anyway the hip things now are aluminium and white plastic.

Now, for 2,7,8,9,10: hey, now that you're getting repetitive, why stop at 10? If you reach 20, surely that will mean you're even righter. (hint: you'll need numbers 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20. If you want more, ask for them, I'll tell you how to continue).

Anyway: now that we're chatting so nicely, could you please explain how is the OS 5 Bluetooth SD drivers subject going? Have you contacted Mr. Mace yet, or any other of your Palm contacts? Less than two weeks left for summer...
Or perhaps I shouldn't even have started taking you seriously?


RE: Steve Jobs was right
Winter_ @ 6/12/2004 5:15:49 AM #
Winter, you don't know how Apple works on the inside.

Do you? If so, explain why, please.

And yes, Steve is totally full of lots and lots of dumb luck.

That's possible. Anyway, I pointed out that Apple, NeXT, Pixar, a number of smaller and clearer examples, and the Apple-copying industry beg to differ.

...or at least, it's such a long string of dumb lucky events that then perhaps the boy is blessed and we apple-brainwashed zombies are rightly worshipping him.

Steve is a charasmatic leader that follows the great charasmatic dictator styles that J. Edgar Hoover, Hilter, Mossolini, JBL and King James I all did to have a crowd almost mindlessly follow them.

When you said that Apple would pollute the Palm brand, I didn't say you sounded kinda nazi because I felt that it was a bit too far fetched and disgusting. But now it's you who make strange relationships. What is exactly your problem, man? Or do you mean that this is normal?

Frankly, I'm surprised that Steve Jobs hasn't made a run for a political office yet. He could become mayor of Cupertino, CA at the drop of a hat if you ask me.

Why major?? Obvious joke: who would you vote? Arnold or Steve? I know I'd vote Steve for sure! :D

RE: Steve Jobs was right
Winter_ @ 6/13/2004 5:16:10 AM #
I'm gonna write all bold because surely I'll be somehow righter.
Well, no, forget that. Too awful.

About "niche of fashion conscious yuppies": does that explain Bondi, Strawberry, Tangerine, Dalmatian, FlowerPower iMacs and +2 millions of iPods sold? (that's between 8 and 25% of MP3 players market share, depending on who you ask to)

About Microsoft and "Apple on life support": Yeah, they helped. Yeah, Apple was useful to them to stop the DOJ.
What you are seemingly ignoring is that the money also served (supposedly) to settle the years long suit that Apple had against Microsoft because of M$'s copying of Quicktime - and aspects of the GUI, IIRC. Also, that near-death experience looks like demonstrating that "mac cultists" were leaving Apple to die, so perhaps they were not that cultists.

Hey, I love these two:
People simply feel better targeting those who are superior to them because it gives them a (false) sense of power.

Erm, how was your message titled? "Frosty blah blah"?

Like how the Cultists (both Mac and Palm) refer to company directors by their first names ("Steve said", "Jeff and Donna said"...) as if they are personal friends with these individuals.

Well, you invent contacts at Palm and talk about secrets you share with the CEO (remember those ultra-secret OS 5 BT SD drivers "your sources" predicted? those ultra-secret drivers that are not published, but about which the CEO will talk to whomever asks nicely?).

About "Linux not ready for prime time" and "issues that Windows users will never see": how many times have you had to reinstall your Windows systems? How many times have you lost hours of work in one way or another because of Micro$oft OS and/or apps? Do you think it's acceptable that M$ apps fail like they do on M$ OSes? Do you use Outlook and InternetExplorer? Have you ever heard about "Blaster", "CodeRed", "ILoveYou"?
Do you think that there is any kind of explanation to the fact that free OSes (there's more to life than Linux, you know) made by hobbyists are more stable and capable than OSes made by one of the mightiest companies on Earth?
Finally, when was the last time that you tried Linux, you clown? (or anything non-Windows and non-Palm :)

About "Palm OS library destroys PPCs": Yeah, as already stated too many times, Palm OS has lots of nice calendars, clocks and even calculators. Meanwhile...
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6640

Be sure to look at the dates of these (open source!)
http://ppc.palmopensource.com/?more=10
http://ppc.palmopensource.com/?more=3
http://ppc.palmopensource.com/?more=6
Well, and the entire http://ppc.palmopensource.com/?category=top_links
Every time I see that page (or any of a bunch of similar ones) I must force myself to remember that "PocketPCs are a joke"...
Now, should I look for commercial software too?

And the funniest: http://pocketprof.org/running_palm_os_software.htm
(be sure to peruse the bottom of that page, where it talks about emulating PalmOS on a PocketPC)

Why use VirtualPC when you can just use the real thing?
Oh, come on. You should know that Micro$oft itself has bought VirtualPC and are integrating it into their OSes. They don't use it in the same way, of course, but the reasons why it's useful are the same: emulate the OS into a sandbox so you can: (1) have its functionality, (2) without suffering the problems. I've been able to do things on VPC that were impracticable / impossible on a real PC.

About style: I think you didn't get it. I said aluminium and white plastic are now / are going to be hip because that's what Apple is doing now.
http://www.apple.com/powermac
http://www.apple.com
You heard it there. (*chuckle*)

About Mac FidoPoo: surely you would say that CliePoo's are perfect, that Sony once more pushes the envelope using new materials, that there's no need for [whatever that is missing] since you can buy [whatever extra] for a mere $199, and that PocketPCs lack that distinctive sticky feeling and foul smell that makes your device unique.

About the mythical OS 5 BT SD drivers:
I gave you the facts.
How do you define "facts", man?

fact [fkt], noun
1 an event or thing known to have happened or existed
2 a truth verifiable from experience or observation
...

So: No, you have not given any facts.
I do have one for you, though it's not new.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L34F51C78

I'd love that you just presented some simple link to those drivers - or **** for ever.

I posted Michael Mace's and Ben Combee's email addresses.
Have you ever heard about "burden of proof"?
What you need to post is some demonstration that your "fact" is not the heap of sh*t that it seems.

I even asked Mr. Mace and Mr. Combee to comment on the drivers at Palminfocenter.
You *even* asked them. Wow.

Mr. Combee stating that he does not know about development of those drivers - or lack thereof:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=6879#95025

If Mace/Combee don't reply, you can interpret this as you wish, but my source is accurate.
Well, as a matter of fact THIS was predicted.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=6879#94931

Where is NeXT?
Apple + NeXT's NextStep = Mac OS X. You don't read the news?

About Facey's Soapbox Mode: kinda ironic after your unfortunate post at
http://www.palminfocentre.com/comment_view.asp?ID=6803#94687
But, as I already said, I agree with keeping that out of this.

RE: Steve Jobs was right
Winter_ @ 6/13/2004 3:43:50 PM #
Aw, man.

1) So, finally, you have not proof of what you (or your magical Palm Insider gnomes) predicted because somehow I am responsible of checking it? Lovely.

1b) You sound like you don't care to check what Mr. Combee has to say about the drivers? Interesting. Have you at least read my prediction? You know, that's where I said "if no one confirms the drivers existence, you'll say you're right"?

2) Free OSes: what's the matter, you only know Linux? Have you ever heard of the BSD family? FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD? BSDs are said to run 20% of the busiest sites on the net. Yahoo is one.

3) Apple + NextStep = Mac OS X. Take a look at the Cocoa classes at Apple's developer site. They all start by "NS", like NSString: NextStep. Or look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_(software)

3b) Incidentally, NextStep is a derivative of FreeBSD. Quite a different Un*x "family brach" from Linux. Google for that.

4) Somehow I expected you to be the only human walking the face of the planet not having experienced problems with Windows 95. Now, it's funny to see you say that "post 98" they get flakier. LOL! Furthermore, you assign crashes' fault to "junior programmers". You mean M$ Office(s) works OK on their very OS(es)?

5)"You never open mails from unknown sources". Well, I have a mac, so I don't have that problem. In fact, if you don't use Outlook, you're almost problem-free. However, perhaps that's why Mr. Mace didn't answer your mail - if you ever wrote him?

6) Looks like you didn't read the part about emulating Palm OS on the Pocket PC (to run those 10 apps that you say are not available there). Nor the part about why VirtualPC is useful - to the point of M$ buying it to integrate on their OSes. Heh.

7) About "we're not in court (yet)": you asked about where do I live, and asked about how brave I was. I answered. Now what? :D

8) RhinoSteve? Why are you always trying to get other people in the subject? I requested an explanation for his nonsensical post and he answered bragging / implying he is / was an Apple employee - as if that gave meaning to his post (sounds kinda like you, huh?). So the post is still without explanation. However, it's funny how you need to bring victories home.

9) No, not Johannestown.

10) Yes, my grammar is confuse. That's the problem of learning english with Dilbert - they never use long sentences. :D

Well, let's finish this.

Your "answers" not only don't bring anything worthy to the subject (whatever subject), but keep insulting left and right. So I don't need any more of them - until you present any fact (or retreat) about those stealth OS 5 BT SD drivers that some magical gnome (err, I mean, some Very Important Palm Insider) told you about.

And my answers seem to be of little help to you, as you ignore any info offered - even after opening your eyes to some radical new concepts like "sharing files over a network" (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6770#93705), so surely I'd be better off by just not answering.

Meanwhile, the rest of the people is surely fed up with all of this. (if someone really wants me to answer, just ask me and I'll do my best :P. Somehow I'm not expecting lots of requests).

So Facey, I guess this is my last post to you. I said Privoxy can stop lots of annoyances, and I'm betting it can even stop YOU. Since the admins aren't IP-filtering you, looks like I'll have to do it locally. Let's see what can be done with some regex substitutions on a table-formatted page like PIC's comments :). If someone is interested on the method, just ask.

(but don't be sad, you're so nice that you'll always have lots of f(r)iends to play with)

Confused ...
Token User @ 6/15/2004 8:50:00 AM #
What was this thread about again?

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

they probably can't

tompi @ 6/8/2004 3:39:14 AM #
Apple probably can't produce a PDA--they just don't have the manpower or know-how. They'd have to develop a new OS, a new GUI, and a whole new set of applications. And all that for a market that is not growing rapidly anymore anyway. And to distinguish themselves, they'd actually have to come up with some real innovations.

Despite presenting itself as an innovator, it looks like Apple is barely keeping up with maintenance on OS X and a few targetted applications. The days of Apple's Advanced Technology Group are long gone, and most of the people working on Newton have left the company as well.

Once Apple can piggy-back a PDA on top of OS X, maybe they have a chance, but handheld hardware isn't powerful enough yet to run OS X. A tablet formfactor iBook is more likely, maybe for the educational market. But given Microsoft's second flop with pen-based computing, that can't look very attractive to Apple either.

RE: they probably can't
Winter_ @ 6/8/2004 5:18:57 AM #
Despite presenting itself as an innovator

They surely have some history to present themselves as innovators, don't they?

Once Apple can piggy-back a PDA on top of OS X, maybe they have a chance, but handheld hardware isn't powerful enough yet to run OS X.

You seem too sure about that.
Don't you think they could strip down Darwin and put some lighter-than-Aqua GUI on top of it?
Even on the Zaurus: what about some combination of Linux + GNUstep?

http://www.gnustep.org
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3222387077.html
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3364064037.html

Man, THAT's mouth-watering...

Apple, innovative?
Winter_ @ 6/8/2004 5:56:02 AM #
Take a look at what Jobs presented on that same event:

http://www.apple.com/airportexpress/

:)

RE: they probably can't
chanchan @ 6/8/2004 8:57:00 AM #
you mean to say that apple have the capability to produce iTunes, the best Audio jukebox software in the world, the iTunes Music Store, the most successful music player, the iPod, in the world, inventor of the PDA in the first place, the Newton, producer of one of the fastest, most powerful Personal Computers in the world, inventor of FireWire, that connector of all things A/V, creator of the worlds first OS, the most stable, advanced OS, does not have the capabilty to produce a PDA?

what planet are you living on? you just be joking.

even Dell has has produced a PDA.

All that is required is the gathering of a bunch of disparate components, put them together, and voila, a PDA.

This is not rocket science, and believe you me, apple has more than enough abilty to produce a PDA.



Calm down...
Winter_ @ 6/8/2004 9:06:32 AM #
I'm all for praising Apple, but, please... stop the exaggerations. That will get us nowhere :P.

creator of the worlds first OS, the most stable, advanced OS

That is plainly over the top :P. Calm down, man.
Apple has too many good things... no need for us to resort to hype ;).

RE: they probably can't
sub_tex @ 6/8/2004 10:18:57 AM #
creator of the worlds first OS, the most stable, advanced OS

Even I can't sit quietly on that one. Yeesh, man. Really calm down before you go making statements like that.

dead

chanchan @ 6/8/2004 9:04:00 AM #
the whole PDA industry as a whole is dead. it will continue as a dead industry walking, but in it's current form, it is dead. there is no longer room for growth, and in fact, demand for PDA's are shrinking and and industry is shrinking.

Why Would Apple, purveyor of all things new and exciting in the tech world want to get involved in an industry that is perceived to be dying a slow and painful death? it makes no sense.

Now, we would all love an Apple PDA I would imagine, especially if you are a Mac user, however, we have done without for so long... and also, if Apple did come out with one, you can be sure that it would not be filed in the same category as the current PDAs on the market today. Apple would produce something very new and exciting.

and I don't care what people say about innovation. Innovation is simply introducing something new to the market. You may think that if apple came out with an organiser device with 10GB harddrive is not innovative, but it is... noone else has done it! and it is exactly something like apple would do.

i think Steve Jobs decided to come out with these comments because of Sony Pulling the Cli from markets other than Japan. Sony is probably the biggest player in the world PDA market (not sure, probably HP actually, but sony is nonetheless major). Sony pulling out is an affirmation of what jobs has been saying all along. teh PDA market is dead! Long live the PDA!

RE: dead
Ezra4no1 @ 6/10/2004 4:13:17 AM #
I as well believe every word of your statement. If Apple had released a PDA it would of been something very different from any PDA we have ever seen... and maybe.. just maybe it might of put spark back into the PDA industry..remember HDD MP3 players existed before the iPod was intruduced... but it took Apple into making it into something sort of an icon.


RE: dead
RhinoSteve @ 6/12/2004 3:39:31 AM #
One reason why it wasn't released was that Steve also tried to ressurect the old PenMac project from seven years ago. It was pretty cool. In 1995, a couple dozen Mac's in the form of just a slate was made with handwriting recognition. While not many in the general public knews about it, that project has been a ghost inside Apple that has haunted anyone from doing a stylus based system since that and the failure / assassination / murder of the Newton.

And to those that think the PDA market is dead, you all have no imagination nor vision to see what is going to happen next. However, you will probably be first to buy it when it comes out.

RE: dead
Winter_ @ 6/12/2004 5:34:02 AM #
One reason why it wasn't released was that Steve also tried to ressurect the old PenMac project from seven years ago. It was pretty cool.
*snip*
that project has been a ghost inside Apple that has haunted anyone from doing a stylus based system since that and the failure / assassination / murder of the Newton.

Loos like not making sense. So, that project was cool and somehow that's why it has prevented anyone from going for it again - even Steve who you say has tried to resurrect it?
So the coolness stopped him on his tracks or what?
Perhaps it's just me not getting it. Please explain :P.


RE: dead
RhinoSteve @ 6/13/2004 2:23:26 AM #
Winter, your Pavlovian responses shows you don't have much self determinism. You are not worth a conversation. This is my last post to you on this subject.

And how do I know how Apple works? I see an Apple
ID tag here with a three digit employee number on it. That is how. The "Steve Cult" is pathetic.
RE: dead
Winter_ @ 6/13/2004 5:09:11 AM #
RhinoSteve: Even if you really ARE an Apple employee, that still leaves your last post not making sense. So please explain, instead of just going into Facey Mode.

Facey: isn't it easier to just post some fact about those mythical OS 5 Bluetooth SD drivers?

Dead? No, just beginning...

pkuhns @ 6/8/2004 9:30:24 AM #
"The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated..." Room to innovate in the PDA space still exists. Plenty of room.

Steve Jobs is actually making a HUGE mistake not taking on the personal, portable video players that will be on our doorsteps by christmas.

Apple is a hardware company. Not a software company. Take the iPod, stick a 320x480 screen on the front, add Bluetooth or WLAN, and partner with Palm or Symbian.

Partnering with Palm and its 10,000 apps is a no-brainer. Morphing the iPod into a "Pixar Player" is even more obvious. His other company is making big money (Pixar=software). Why not invent the new Watchman before Sony does (Apple=hardware). You do the math.



Nokia 3650 bluetooth magnate

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
hkklife @ 6/8/2004 9:55:36 AM #
I agree. If the PSP's video capabilities are anything up to par, all of the CD-ripping MP3-playing teens of the past couple of years will soon have progressed to doing the same with video and wanting to play it on the go. Not in the same numbers as the MP3 mania of the late 90s but still plenty of opportunity there for someone to jump on the bandwagon and make a killing.

Right now the personal video portable market is basically Archos with RCA's lone model still appearing on occasion. I think iRiver & Creative have models in the works but they will still be lacking in the sex appeal of the iPod and won't be out until this fall IIRC. Jobs should have begun work long ago on a video-capable iPod (with removable battery & improved PDA functions where you can input data on the road) with a target release of spring '04).

That would slyly get Apple into the "PDA" market without having to market their product as such and would also set a standard for other manufacturers to follow (design aesthetic, interface/ease of use etc).

"Apple=hardware"??
Winter_ @ 6/8/2004 10:20:28 AM #
Steve Jobs is actually making a HUGE mistake not taking on the personal, portable video players that will be on our doorsteps by christmas.

I like to think that he has better (more interesting) things to do.

Apple is a hardware company. Not a software company.

You mean Mac OS X and Quicktime (for example) are not important for Apple?

You mean they could stop selling OS X and still sell the computers? (well, except for the people that buy Powerbooks to use them as Linux machines)

Take the iPod, stick a 320x480 screen on the front, add Bluetooth or WLAN, and partner with Palm or Symbian.

Looks like you want a T3 with a hard disk.
Get one of the new 2 Gb memory cards and you're halfway there.

Anyway, you said "there's plenty of room to innovate". This certainly doesn't look like innovation to me. So, what are you talking about exactly?


Partnering with Palm and its 10,000 apps is a no-brainer.

Looks like he doesn't agree.
I'll take his view, sorry. After all looks like he has a bit of experience in the field.

Morphing the iPod into a "Pixar Player" is even more obvious.

Incredibly, terribly obvious.

His other company is making big money (Pixar=software). Why not invent the new Watchman before Sony does (Apple=hardware). You do the math.

No need to. You have done the incredibly simple math. :P

Newton - still viable as is!!!
NewtonDKC @ 6/8/2004 10:37:35 AM #
I can't state enough how much I dislike Steve Jobs. If he was half the demi-god he seems to believe himself to be, then perhaps Apple would be doing even better than just staying above water (and please, no flames, I used to be a major Mac fanatic until HE killed the Newton, and I will never forgive him for that!).
Actually, I was playing with my MessagePad 2000 for nostalgia's sake, and here's what weird - The Newton OS is absolutely up to par with Palm OS and CE!!!! Really, the only thing Apple would need to do to make a viable Newton product would be to add color (rumored to already have been completed well before Newton INc was pulled back in just to kill it), and add Quicktime support for video and media. The Newton OS already offers multitasking, has handwriting recognition that is equal to even the best natural handwriting solution available for CE (Calligrapher - oddly enough whihc is also on the Newton for the cursive rec, while Apple's own print recognizer is used for separate letters), and Graffiti (real Graffiti with pen strokes and everything!) work just spiffy. The OS itself is extremely easy to use and navigate around. In fact, after playing with it, I truly believe it is still better than PPC or POS.
What killed the Newton in the market place was the lack of synching (How apple could have neglected this I'll never understand) and the large hardware (the MP 2000 is very big, and though it has a beautiful 320x480 screen, it's just too durn big. Shrink the hardware (which runs on StrongArm, thus it would work on Xscale with ve few mods), use iSynch, add color and I'd buy it right now! :-)
By the way, for those who have never used a Newton - believe us when we gloss all happy over the power and elegance of it. I still wish I could "scrub" out text to get rid of it, and miss the power Newton Notepad app (just nothing like it on Palm or Pocket PC, not even Phatware's app comes even close). As for not forgiving Jobs, killing a non-profitable section is nothing bad, but pulling in a company that had already spun off - on it's own!!!! - just to kill it off is unforgiveable. Was Jobs that threatened by Newton Inc that he had to pull them in just to kill them?
I wish some company would buy the Newton OS and release products based on it. I'd certainly buy one!

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
Altema @ 6/8/2004 2:57:01 PM #
"Was Jobs that threatened by Newton Inc that he had to pull them in just to kill them?"

It may have been that he though the Newton would have gotten in the way, which would not surprise me. Anyone remember the way the Apple /// was killed just before it's prime? It would have hampered sales of the new but much slower (at the time) Macintosh.

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
Altema @ 6/8/2004 3:04:13 PM #
"Looks like you want a T3 with a hard disk.
Get one of the new 2 Gb memory cards and you're halfway there."

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head. It would not make sense to re-invent what is already available. You can already fit full length movies on a T3/512MB card combo with quality that beats the current pocket video players hands down. I skipped buying a mini DVD player. 4 full movies on a postage stamp sized 2GB card is pretty good. Yes, you can set the properties so each movie is less than 200MB and fit 10 of them, but the quality really sucks on fast moving scenes (not enough bits to keep up). The possibilities are as big as your DVD collection... and your wallet. More economical would be the hp 2215 with a 2 or 4GB CF card. The resolution is lower and colors are not as deep, but playback is nice and smooth and very watchable. Plus, you could pair the hp with your friend's T3 or Zodiac and play a network game of Warfare Inc. after the movie!

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
JonAcheson @ 6/8/2004 3:52:26 PM #
I don't agree that Jobs is making a huge mistake.

Firstly, Apple has hurt itself in the past by broadening itself too much and spreading itself too thin. It's something they have to be careful about avoiding. They could put out a home theater PC too, or a smartphone, but that doesn't mean they should.

Secondly, I don't think the portable video market is going to be anywhere near as big as the portable audio market. Good portable TVs have been around for years, but hardly anyone bothers with them. Whereas everyone listens to the radio in the car, or plays CDs.

Jon Acheson


"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
rueyeet @ 6/8/2004 5:19:42 PM #
Pixar player? Masses of MP3-to-movie teens doing "video on the go"? Sorry, but I think Jobs is right on this one, as right as he is arrogant.

The key part of that whole video player idea is the "on the go" part. On the go means a screen small enough to be portable, which means not big enough to be truly watchable. On the go means you're, y'know, *going* somewhere, which means that you may want to look where you're walking/cycling/driving instead of at a tiny video screen.

Just as most people now perform PIM functions with their cell phones and thus don't need a PDA, most people would prefer to watch things while sitting down and relaxing. Video "on the go" is going to be a niche market, just as PDAs are.

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
MTM @ 6/9/2004 11:29:42 AM #
"His other company is making money...."

So is this one:

< http://tinyurl.com/2qajz >

Also, just for interest's sake, consider the following:

< http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=457_0_1_0_M >

Mike

"Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity". --Richard Feynman

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
pkuhns @ 6/9/2004 3:24:16 PM #
I'm not sure if any of you will see this, but...

these are all excellent arguments in support of Jobs' decision. But I still think he is throwing away a huge opportunity to further the main reason why the iPod exists.

Apple is a hardware company. No duh...right? Well, everything they do is designed for one reason: to sell hardware. Go ahead and continue to try and convince me they're a software company. They're not. They sell and profit from hardware. Sure, software is easy money, but that's not their strength. That's Micro$oft's strength.

Quicktime/Final Cut pro sells macs to moviemakers. The iPod sells Macs to audiophiles. OS X sells macs to students/people who don't want to deal with blue screens of death (as often...). That's the softwares' purpose. A Pixar Player that supported only Quicktime or MPEG/Quicktime would help sell Macs too.

I have an NX70 and a 1 GB card. The Sony video player uses Quicktime. All the work has been done! Converting DVDs though is a total pain in the ass. And I don't want to spend $85 on DVDxCopy. Apple could make that process insanely easy. But alas...

Anyway, I appreciate all the great replies. Portable video players are here/coming/improving/the future -- and Apple again is jumping ship right when things get interesting. Know what I'm talking about Newton lovers...?

Nokia 3650 bluetooth magnate

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
Winter_ @ 6/9/2004 3:55:34 PM #
MTM: great links. I must take the second one with some heavy grains of salt, but, hey... we'll see :).

Pkuhns:
Sure, software is easy money,

Try telling that to someone who has witnessed Apple's Dark Age of the late nineties, while they tried to come up with "the next OS". That was painful, man.

but that's not their strength. That's Micro$oft's strength.

Let's see. Did you know that for some time existed a version of Windows NT for Macs? And that Apple and Motorola asked M$ to stop developing it? They were not interested.
And, did you know that until the latest nineties there was no Linux for Macs? It was not interesting for Apple (until somehow they saw the light and allowed some developers to help a little to port Linux to the platform)

Having more OSes for the hardware platform would have helped Apple selling more computers. After all, it was a time when the PowerPCs had some significant and plain advantage over the Pentiums; and I have had a number of friends avoiding the mac because "there is no alternative to the OS" (funnily, they all use Windows now - and hate it, the suckers :).
So Apple only wanted to sell Macintoshes with Mac OS. Period.

So, a hardware company? Can you buy a Mac without Mac OS? (well, yes if you look hard enough for it, but it won't be easy).

Is it a software company? You can't buy Mac OS X for other platforms... but at least they make some software for Windows, for example.

Let's make it simpler. Would you agree on characterizing Dell as a hardware company? I guess yes. And, would you say Apple is akin to Dell? Clearly no. (and, I should say, if you think they are similar, you surely aren't much into the Mac universe :). Go ask someone who is.

Now, is Apple akin to a software company? Like, say, Micro$oft? (Ugh!)... well, if I have to choose one of the 2 options, this one seems more appropiate.

Surely it was more similar to Palm before of the splitting. But without the compatibles :). (ah, those memories will never heal...)

A Pixar Player that supported only Quicktime or MPEG/Quicktime would help sell Macs too.

No please. Apple got into that Dark Age because (among other things) they went (too) propietary. Everything they used had to be invented at Apple. It was called the "not invented here" syndrome, and almost killed the company (try googling for that). Even the video port was propietary, for Goth's sake! You could use PC VGA monitors, but you had to get a stupid 10$ adapter.

In fact now the iPod uses all standard formats: MP3 and AAC, which is also a MPEG standard. And I'm sure that has been good for it.

The Sony video player uses Quicktime. All the work has been done! Converting DVDs though is a total pain in the ass.

I'm not sure what is your point here.
Quicktime is a great format (AVI is quite infamous); to the point of having been elected as the basis for the MPEG4 standard. But it's just the "envelope" for the video and audio; those have to be compressed in some way (using codecs). I don't know which codecs does the Sony video player, but that's a bit problematic, since the more standard ones are old and worse than say MPEG4/DivX/XViD. The good ones (Sorenson, QDesign, ...) are propietary and not generally available, IIRC.
...but... what does this all have to do with converting DVDs and the rest of the conversation?

Apple again is jumping ship right when things get interesting.

Well... we'll never know, I guess. But I personally would trust Jobs. After all, looks like he is the responsible for making Apple alive again.
I've also seen some terribly promising technologies being dumped by Apple as a trash bag. Did you know OpenDoc? It's still painful to think about it and seeing M$'s ActiveX everywhere. But well... at least we now have OS X, and so Micro$oft has some new clues as to what makes an OS interesting :).

Anyway, as someone has already said, I can't see video players getting the attention that the iPod (or MP3 players in general) have. There are lots of situations where you can hear music. There are NOT lots of situations where you can be watching video - and when you do, you'll usually want good video. Would have the iPod been such a success if the sound was crappy? You can have pretty good sound even on the bike. Imagine watching video on the train - sincerely, I'm not too excited.
(in fact, I have been meaning to try mmplayer on the T3, but I still have not had the interest to get into it... but the MP3 player has been exercised since day one. I've bought an aluminium case just to be able to take it everywhere without worries while I hear the music...)

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
Altema @ 6/9/2004 5:16:43 PM #
"Converting DVDs though is a total pain..."

You tried Pocket-DVD Studio?

Pros: Pop in a DVD, set the name and size, and click Start. Quality is pretty good if you don't skimp on the bitrate. Good encoding control, and you can even have subtitles.

Cons: Must have DVD software on desktop for app to work. Slow unless you have major CPU power. Encoding a DVD bonus track can be a nightmare. Output is in AVI format, which will be a deal breaker for some.

RE: Dead? No, just beginning...
Mandroid @ 6/10/2004 10:02:29 AM #
Had to respond to this.... you state matter-of-factly that Apple is making a huge mistake by not taking on the portable video player market.

I have to ask, how do you know they aren't? It's been speculated for a long time that Apple is in fact at work on some sort of portable video device, and regardless of what their plans are for bringing one to market, it is almost definite that they are working on prototypes and various ideas.

The big question of course is making something that is truly useful and enjoyable to use.

Personally, I'm glad that Apple isn't trying to be first out the gate on this one. Of the portable video players I've played around with (the Archos was the one I got the most time with), I did not think much of them. I found the controls to be unpleasant to use, the video and screen quality to be subpar, and the general size and feel of the unit to be unwieldy.

There's no doubt that Apple could probably slap something together and get it out there, but I think they will take the same tact as they did with the iPod...... let other companies develop various devices, then really look at what people do and don't like, what problems people have, and then come up with an elegant solution. So I think we'll see these MS-powered media devices, the Sony stuff, etc. and then we'll start seeing the responses to them.

There was a time where I wished they would just slap a high res color screen on an iPod, and let you play video files stores on it, but now I'd much prefer to just wait and see them come up with something better, if it's possible.

But again, the main reason I'm responding is because of your contention that Apple is making a huge mistake by somehow ignoring the portable video player market. Especially in recent years, Apple has done a much better job at keeping the stuff they are working on and developing a secret..... so there's just no way to know what Apple is and isn't working on, and what markets they are and aren't ignoring.

-Mandroid

I think there's a pointer here.....

vesther @ 6/11/2004 10:28:39 PM #
I think Steve Jobs is trying to make a point that he's trying to choose products wisely to avoid making costly mistakes. He wants Apple to be wise when it comes to products and not to end up on the same domain Microsoft is at right now--I think Steve Jobs is trying to avoid getting Apple reprimanded by not making a PDA.

I can only guess that palmOne is trying to make a deal with Apple for a Treo/Macintosh collaboration.

Again, IMO Steve Jobs is trying to choose his options wisely, especially when it comes to introducing new electronics.

A Palm-Powered Handheld is the bread and butter for many people. Without a Palm-Powered Handheld, your progress is all for naught.

RE: I think there's a pointer here.....
tfftruoa @ 6/13/2004 3:11:58 AM #
regular PDA's seem more likely to be bundled/collaberated over than treos with Apple. The treo is a smartphone, meaning it requires a carrier.

Apple doesn't (though i would not be at all surprised if they introduced one) have a wireless network, so any apple treos would just be a low end PDA with a camera.

The Federation for the Responsible Use of Acronyms

Top

Account

Register Register | Login Log in
user:
pass: