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Comments on: palmOne Stock Dips Again

The recently volatile palmOne stock took another step downward today in trading on the nasdaq. For the second week in a row the share price dropped more than 10% on news of a new model that would compete with the Treo 600.
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Wow

RhinoSteve @ 9/8/2004 7:28:54 PM #
Looks like time to buy!

-- Passive Agressive types need not apply.
RE: Wow
mikecane @ 9/8/2004 7:36:09 PM #
A fool and his money ...

RE: Wow
hkklife @ 9/8/2004 8:24:55 PM #
If not ain't the time for a carefully placed leak from P1, I don't know what is!! At the very least, confirm or deny the availability of OS6 unit(s) this fall!

It seems like for the past 3 years or so, the June-Sept doldrums set in and Palm/P1 just grinds to a halt, new product-wise as the user reports begin to trickle in about the current crop underperforming/unreliable products launched in the spring. Then the buzz begins to build about a new model for October and the anticipation sets in anew!!

RE: Wow
Foo Fighter @ 9/8/2004 10:48:11 PM #
I see Baron von Munchausen (aka RhinoSteve) is still spreading his usual dose of delusional cheer.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Wow
Foo Fighter @ 9/9/2004 9:58:57 AM #
>> "If not ain't the time for a carefully placed leak from P1, I don't know what is!!"

And what will this accomplish other than to wreck sales of existing models and place PalmOne on the verge of financial ruin?

Now is not the time for PalmOne to pull an Osborne.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Wow
mikecane @ 9/9/2004 10:12:00 AM #
Even dead (may he RIP), Osborne lives.

For the lads born too late:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Osborne

RE: Wow
hkklife @ 9/9/2004 11:41:50 AM #
Erm,not be suggesting another m5xx announcement/launch scenario, but I'd imagine that P1 sales are pretty much in the doldrums now anyway, what with BB pulling out of the PDA market almost completely and the other chains scaling back their PDA offerings. Perhaps a well-timed LEAK (not official announcement) and a few weeks ahead of schedule release of the Treo 650 for Sprint would be enough to keep a few current Palm users from migrating to PPC in the next couple months. Just look at all of the comements of PIC members who are saying "If T5 doesn't have dual wireless I'll jump ship to the PPC camp" etc.

P.S.

If P1 is still around in its present state in 2 years' time, I would wager that they will offer no more than 3 or 4 non-smartphone PDAs, mostly low/midrange models.

RE: Wow
RhinoSteve @ 9/9/2004 5:21:20 PM #
I guess no one here knows how to short sell.

Hawkins and Nagel
Gekko @ 9/9/2004 5:25:19 PM #

Hawkins and Nagel will glady sell you some of their shares!

http://biz.yahoo.com/t/45/503.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/t/46/3395.html



RE: Wow
mikecane @ 9/10/2004 10:02:40 AM #
Gekko cracks me up again.

It's not just BB ditching PDAs. In NYC, DataVision, which used to be whole hog for PDAs, has cut back their section drastically. There are now more GPS units than PDAs on display -- and I'm including The Abomination of PPC.

RE: Wow
Sleuth255 @ 9/10/2004 10:08:19 AM #
P1 needs to officially announce the ACE. It may not help Treo sales, but it will help their stock price. The RIM announcement is for future availability too. Is it hurting current BB sales? If so why do it? Answer: positioning.

RE: Wow
mikecane @ 9/10/2004 10:50:34 AM #
p1's mass unveilings happen next month. TechXNY (aka PC Expo).

Buh-bye

tthiel @ 9/8/2004 9:36:40 PM #
There is no money to be had in the PDA market. Palm will lose the PDA/Phone market to cell phone companies. It's only a matter of time. The new Treo should have been out 6 months ago and the new Tungsten the same.

RE: Buh-bye
AyDb @ 9/9/2004 3:19:00 AM #
Wrong. The attempts to add PDA functions to phones are at best a trainwreck. PalmSource and Sony-Ericsson, the two players with viable OSes, end up with their (and their licensees') offerings so overpriced it's ludicrous. Meanwhile, Motorola and Nokia have a field day selling phones that are cheap, but lack anything in terms of capability. They have system cores that are so proprietary it's a joke. Trying to replace PDAs without having any options for third party software, and kind of office apps, ANYTHING, is just insane. I will never understand the illogic of people who say that PDAs are dying, or that phones are taking over. The phone market being the way it is, they could never hope to replace handheld computers, save perhaps in the hands of teenagers who are more concerned with emailing crappy pictures than doing anything productive. Sure, PDA sales fluctuate. So does everything. The U.S. Dollar is down enormously from four years ago, but I don't hear anyone saying that it's the end of the U.S. Dollar. PDA sales fluctuate. I expect that TV sales plateaued more than once in their very early years, too. Handhelds won't die because the core concept and form-factor are solid, and much better suited to serious applications than a phone.

RE: Buh-bye
Token User @ 9/9/2004 9:05:48 AM #
Wrong. The attempts to add PDA functions to phones are at best a trainwreck. PalmSource and Sony-Ericsson, the two players with viable OSes, end up with their (and their licensees') offerings so overpriced it's ludicrous. Meanwhile, Motorola and Nokia have a field day selling phones that are cheap, but lack anything in terms of capability.

PalmOne is the manufacturer of the Treo. PalmSource licences the OS ... not only to PalmOne, but also Kyocera (7135 - OS4, but stil a very capable SmartPhone), and Samsung (OS4 model now hard to find, with OS5 model coming).
Sony-Ericsson is a cellphone manufacturer. They license their OS from Symbian. A company owned by Nokia. Sony-Ericsson is a joint partnership, and not the licensee of the PalmOS from PalmSource.
Nokia use Symbian for their SmartPhones (the ones you would compare with a Treo) - very capable OS .... and not all their phones are cheap.
Motorola use a Java based OS, a highly capable cross platform OS.

You forgot to mention Research in Motion - but I guess they aren't viable competition because they are Canadian :)

Convergence is coming. Phones are getting smarter, PDAs are getting more conected. The device you carry will likely refelct what you do most - data or voice. This might be a trainwreck from two immovable paradigms coming together, but it could also be the start of something new and improved.

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: Buh-bye
Xian @ 9/9/2004 11:21:48 AM #
Just a minor correction, Symbian is a jointly owned company, whose owners include Nokia and Sony Ericsson.

RE: Buh-bye
Token User @ 9/9/2004 12:42:22 PM #
Very true ...

Sybian Ownership (%)
Ericsson 15.6
Sony Ericsson 13.1
Nokia 47.9
Panasonic 10.5
Psion 0.0 (was a little over 30%)
Samsung 4.5
Siemens 8.4

Sony Ericsson have about as much of a stake in Symbian as Sony does in PalmSource. Also, the Metrowerks Symbian development tools are now owned/managed by Nokia. So, while other companies have a stake in Symbian, I think it is pretty clear who is in control :)


~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: Buh-bye
CaptMyCapt @ 9/9/2004 1:38:24 PM #
PDA's are here to stay. Cell Phone screens are too small and making them much larger are counter-intuitive for the many who want small cell phones and who don't want to hold a laptop up to their ears (Bluetooth notwithstanding). PDA's are here to stay . . . they are even projected into the future . . . just look at Star Trek!

I, Captain

"You will never make progress trying to sail into the wind - chart your course!"

RE: Buh-bye
AyDb @ 9/10/2004 12:36:05 AM #
PalmOne is the (Snip) PalmOS from PalmSource.

I know all that. What I'm talking about it the classes of device, the Palm based smartphones and the Symbian based ones--SE being the far more capable of PDA functions over the Symbian-based Nokias. And what I'm driving at is that all the smartphones of any real substance are priced insanely out of reach.

Motorola use a Java based OS, a highly capable cross platform OS.

Except that it isn't 'highly capable' if you can't do anything with it. Show me the reams of third-party software. Show me the equivalent to Documents to Go or Textmaker. Show me the full HTML web browser with single-column rendering. Go ahead, I'm waiting.

PDAs might be getting more connected, but they don't seem to be getting much more phonelike. My bet is that if anything comes of this, it will be that cellular radios become more common in handhelds--not for the purpose of being phones, but simply for wireless internet. In that case, there'd be no point in trying to shoehorn unneccessary connectivity features into phones, and you could let them be phones. Even if that were to happen, however, it would be at most temporary. There are movements afoot to deploy WiFi over large areas using mesh networks, and in a few years WiMax will be making an appearence.

RE: Buh-bye
RhinoSteve @ 9/10/2004 11:21:17 AM #
I heard it best this way...

"PC Companies doing PDAs is line Ford trying to get into the motorcycle business. Cell phone companies trying to get into the PDA business is like Mack Truck trying to get in the motorcycle business. Neither can design their IP to make it small and flexable enough to sell well since they don't know the customer base."

If I had a dime for every poo-poo I heard on here that PDAs are dead and bought PalmOne stock, I'd be even more of a rich man.


Titanic

Gekko @ 9/8/2004 9:39:10 PM #

They're polishing the brass on the Titanic. It's all going down, man.



RE: Titanic
SaabCaptain @ 9/8/2004 11:01:00 PM #
I am a LONG time Palm user... but the PDA market has been stale for 3 years now and nothing, nothing on the horizon seems to make it more interesting. OS 6 for 99.9% of users will be basically identical to OS 5, nothing new.

The Treo 650/Ace is exciting if it were a bit smaller, and about $200-300 ... oh wait, that is the new BlackBerry! I know the BlackBerry isn't in the same league in features as the Treo but among the most important features it is damn close while kicking butt with cost.

No wonder why the ship is sinking.

owned: Pilot 5000, PalmPilot Pro, Palm V, Casio E-11, IIIc, m505, Sony T615, Tungsten T, iPaq 1945, Tungsten E.

RE: Titanic
Foo Fighter @ 9/8/2004 11:16:04 PM #
>> " They're polishing the brass on the Titanic. It's all going down, man."

...Says ensign Gekko to his shipmates on the bridge.

You realize of course that the PDA market is going down with them, don't you?

We are witnessing the decline of a PRODUCT CATEGORY...not a company. PDAs are a dead market. Profits are gone...Sony is gone..followed by Toshiba, Tapwave, and within the next 12-24 months you can expect Dell to join the rest of the Society of Abandoned Hopes. In the end only two players will be left competing for what few table scraps remain in PDA sales: HP and PalmOne.

So man the lifeboats while you still have a chance, Gekko. Or at least grab some souvenirs before the ship slips beneath the waves.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Titanic
lab_monkee_see_all @ 9/8/2004 11:27:19 PM #
This is real fun. I've been following threads all over the internet regarding the new models and the race to be #1 in the PDA market....

Anyhow, if the ship is sinking...does anyone know if my Tungsten C floats? I'm going to be totally lost without it. I won't even know what to eat.

Lastly, I get dibs on the redhead. What a hottie. The ship is sinking and you guys can only think of PDA's....what a bunch of geeks....hehehehe....

RE: Titanic
Foo Fighter @ 9/9/2004 12:25:09 AM #
>> "Lastly, I get dibs on the redhead. What a hottie. The ship is sinking and you guys can only think of PDA's....what a bunch of geeks....hehehehe...."

Well I tried to pick up the brunette at the end of the bar, but all that got me was a slap in the face. So I settled for a jar of ****tail olives instead. Oh, and I also helped myself to the silverware in the galley as well as the towels in the ship's spa.

By the way, did anyone else notice all those barnacles on the hull as she capsized? What a mess.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Titanic
Foo Fighter @ 9/9/2004 12:30:26 AM #
Dear god. Ryan's censor software blocked out the word c-o-c-k-tail. Oh the shame of it all.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Titanic
just_little_me @ 9/9/2004 4:52:31 AM #
God, if I had a dollar for everytime some *dufus* said "it's all over man!" I'd be a rich man by now.

Twit's like yourself have been calling the demise of Palm and PDA's for over 5 YEARS!


JLM.

RE: Titanic
mikecane @ 9/9/2004 10:13:52 AM #
I'm beginning to think the PDA is NOT dead. Well, except for maybe PPC (so-called gaining marketshare will turn out to be an illusion; it will not be sustained -- watch when all the sales for new models fail!).

For all the attraction of the OQO and even Flybook and others, having started to use an OS5 device (finally! -- which I will do an article about for PIC after the PPC one), my eyes have been opened. The immediacy is just amazing. This speed cannot be matched by the OQO, neither for instant-on access nor for actual *work*. (I await Foo's alleged review -- alleged, because hey, isn't it getting towards Fall? Any OQO in sight yet?)

palmOne is in a good position with the Treo, but man, they have got to get that price down down down. If anything is a threat to PalmOS PDAs, it's *Blackberry*. I'm beginning to see these suckers all over the place now. That new BB phone is a huge threat.

If p1 does get the Treo price down, it will steal sales from their own PDAs, but at least that money will go to *them*. As for me, I still want a *PDA* -- a 320x480 or greater screen with WiFi (and maybe OS6?!!?). The Treo can wait a few more models...

MS Smurfphone? Don't make me laugh (OK, *do* make me laugh!).

RE: Titanic -- an iceberg?
mikecane @ 9/9/2004 10:24:59 AM #
Then again, something *could* come out of the blue...

http://www.pepper.com/products/pepper_pad_2_specification.html

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=3324

Foo, get a review unit!

RE: Titanic
ardiri @ 9/9/2004 10:41:43 AM #
i just purchased the sony vaio u70

http://www.pdabuyersguide.com/notebooks/sony_vaio_U50.htm

(u50 reviewed there, but u70 = better). i look forward to using this little sucker. 1Ghz PIII-M, 512mb ram, 20Gb HDD, touch screen and 802.11g WIFI. i dont see any handheld getting close to that in a while - even the OQO doesn't spec up as good (and, its still vapourware)

as for Pocket PC, Microsoft Smartphone, Symbian Series 60, Palm - they all have a need/place/requirement for different type of people. just because you dont like the PPC, it doesn't mean its crap. the latest C500 smartphone is actually quite a nice little unit - also the new motorola pocket pc device (MPX), which i was able to tinker with earlier today when meeting microsoft (its not released yet).

i think the u70 will be my dream handheld :) will be able to run MAME on that, and everything else i develop (its win32). it just comes with a hefty price tag.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Titanic
Foo Fighter @ 9/9/2004 11:07:07 AM #
>> "(I await Foo's alleged review -- alleged, because hey, isn't it getting towards Fall? Any OQO in sight yet?)"

Apparently OQO hasn't sent out review units to the press yet. I'll send their PR rep an email asking whats up.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Titanic
Foo Fighter @ 9/9/2004 1:10:48 PM #
>> "Foo, get a review unit!"

Done! My name is on the list to receive a review unit, according to the PR Rep I spoke with. Now the question is...when will that be? Who knows.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Titanic
Gekko @ 9/9/2004 4:25:27 PM #

>"F*** Martha Stewart. Martha's polishing the brass on the Titanic. It's all going down, man. So f*** off with your sofa units and Strinne green stripe patterns."

Nobody recognizes that quote from a very prophetic 1999 movie?

The Answer and a GREAT midi:

http://www.neomillenium.org/fc/fightclub.htm

RE: Titanic
AyDb @ 9/10/2004 12:45:00 AM #
I'm beginning to think the PDA is NOT dead. Well, except for maybe PPC (so-called gaining marketshare will turn out to be an illusion; it will not be sustained -- watch when all the sales for new models fail!).

Mike,

You're insane. More and more people are choosing Pocket PCs, and you think that this somehow hurts the Pocket PC market? What color is the Kool-Aid where you are? Whatever Palm-fanatic tripe you're spinning about how repulsed everyone will be with the Pocket PC OS is patently false. People have been buying PPCs for years, and they like them. And more people are choosing PPC because that's where the value lies. That's why PalmOne needs to seriously compete with Pocket PC manufacturers, dollar for dollar, feature for feature. This is the same attitude that kept Palm saying that users don't want a color screen, or a fast processor, or a wireless internet connection. The fact is that they do, and the faster that PalmOne realizes that the Emperor is naked and starts targeting the majority of users, the better.

RE: Titanic
mikecane @ 9/10/2004 9:11:36 AM #
Multiple replies in one:

ardiri: That Sony is very nice. I fondled the 50. A tad heavy and bulky, but great promise.

>>>just because you dont like the PPC, it doesn't mean its crap

This is true. But the fact is, whether I like it or not, is that it IS crap!

For the PPC weenie: wait and see. Sales will tank. One dose of that clap is enough. PalmOS penicillin to the rescue in the form of Treo.

RE: Titanic
Sleuth255 @ 9/10/2004 10:17:36 AM #
Damn. PDA's are dead? I'm lost without my T3.



RE: Titanic
AyDb @ 9/11/2004 1:17:34 PM #
Sales will tank. One dose of that clap is enough.

Pocket PC sales have been rising for two years, and Palm sales have been falling for two years. You don't think that that's long enough for people to stop buying Pocket PCs if they don't like them? And you've been predicting this same thing for years, too. The fact is, there is no backlash. As incomprehensible as it is to you, most people don't mind using a Pocket PC. In fact, 48% of the market prefers it over Palm. PalmOne needs to wake the hell up and start producing models to really compete on features. The Treos are far too expensive to compete with most Pocket PCs, and the phone niche isn't one where you can get the large number of consumer sales.

Can anyone here concieve of the idea that PalmOne actually needs to compete, and can't simply be lifted into heaven on the wings of its own innate perfection? And here's another question--how many people here have actually owned a Pocket PC? I always hear all these tired old memes about Pocket PCs, and as far as I can tell no one has actually compared them against the reality. I have both an Axim X30 624 MHz and a Tapwave Zodiac 2 in front of me, and I've also had the Zire 72 and Tungsten E. The Axim is the best unit of the four, because it offers more speed, features, and value. THAT is what I'm talking about. PalmOne needs to compete.

RE: Titanic
Gekko @ 9/11/2004 7:03:04 PM #

AyDb - well said.


The Fight isn't Over Yet

VT-Vincent @ 9/9/2004 12:35:29 AM #
I don't see why there is this impending sense of doom floating over the Palm community this last few months. The company's overall performance is at it's best in the last 2 years and the company has also gone through worse tumbles than this.

The entire PDA market is slow right now, and I think it will eventually pick up. I also don't see SmartPhones taking over the world seeing as the majority of them are vastly inferior to most PDAs in the last three years.

----------------------------------------
Future Tungsten T3 owner.
Status of iPaq H1945: Settling in on it's new home, eBay.

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
cbowers @ 9/9/2004 1:45:03 AM #
Well, a few reasons. Lack of acceptable product. And then there's always the comparitive pricing on those Dell Axim X30s. 624Mhz processor, Bluetooth and WiFi, all for $267 including shipping. Some would argue that Fiats, Renaults, and Ladas can be had cheaply too. But then those doen't exactly have the Dell's Porsche specs. To which they insert the obigatory retort, that one needs Porche specs to drag the boat anchor of it's OS.

To which I post my yearly comment, that Palmsource should get HP and Dell onboard. If they can put out the hardware at those prices then move over PalmOne, your 15 minutes are over.

Gizmodo link
http://tinyurl.com/699az

Sure I supported them with my dollars in the form of Tungsten C purchases. But that's because there's nothing else in the platform for me as an option. And that's the current problem with the platform.

Based on past performance as far back as the M500, even *if* they wow us with something in October/November, they'll loose half their kudos for taking this long and letting the market slip so far, and the other half when they take a further 2 years for the next follow-up.

Not that PalmOne ever listens, but here's what I'm looking for.
Built-in keyboard (backlit would be nice).
Minimum 400Mhz processor
WiFi+Bluetooth
Minimum 1400MaH battery, preferably user swappable
Greater than 320x320 screen
A backlight that is substantially dimmable
PalmOS 6
Stereo output, mic input + built in mic
Minimum 64MB RAM
Standard DC in port
USB host mode, and firewire would be no biggie to put in either

As for this last item, HD based MP3 players have shown that a hard drive , which many seem to desire, in PDA that already has just enough battery life (if there is such a thing), does not need the baggage of a hard drive. But put USB host and or Firewire on the PDA, and now you can use anything from a USB flash dongle to an Ipod for your data options. A Tungsten C paired to an Ipod could go all out together for 2 maybe 3 hours (remember that an ipod only gets it's 8 hours life substantially playing from flash, with the HD spooled down). But put that hard drive in the PDA, and your life will be less than an hour. So to those hoping for internal 4GB+ Cornice/IBM/Toshiba/Hitachi CF hard drives, be careful what you wish for.


RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
mikecane @ 9/9/2004 10:21:31 AM #
>>>But put that hard drive in the PDA, and your life will be less than an hour.

I think this is false. The iPod gets its incredible battery life from just powering up the HD to *dump* the file in RAM. If a POS PDA did this too, I don't think it'd suck the life out in an hour. PPCs keep churning the file from the Microdrive; that baby keeps spinning while the MP3 plays. palmOne/PalmSource does not have to make the same mistake.

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
hkklife @ 9/9/2004 11:49:03 AM #
I'd say that even more so than halfhearted products (and a maddeningly glacial release schedule at that!) it boils down to inferior QUALITY across the P1 line that has really spelled their doom.

The Zire 31 seems to be the only decently put-together model in the current line or at least the one I've not read about having any major quality or build woes. To charge $400 for a model like the T3 and have rattly buttons, casing gaps (my 3rd T3's current affliction, btw) screens from at least 2 different suppliers and sliders with all manner of rigidity is just unforgivable. Remember when everyone was calling the T|T the "BMW of PDAs"? HAH! Then everyone's digitizers started drifting... P1's shoddy craftsmanship is likely one of the main reasons BB bailed on PDAs and the other chains are discontinuing their carry-in service plans. It's sad when you have to fork over $50+ just to be guarantee something (digitizer drift) that the manufacturer shouldn't have let happen in the first place.

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
cbowers @ 9/9/2004 12:12:26 PM #
"I think this is false. The iPod gets its incredible battery life from just powering up the HD to *dump* the file in RAM. If a POS PDA did this too, I don't think it'd suck the life out in an hour."

Well let's look at that then...

My 40GB ipod gets about 7.5 hours of life in the Apple approved run down test. Take an albums worth of songs encoded at 160Kbps and let it play continuously round and round at medium volume, no EQ settings etc. Not that that's normative playback behaviour but what it does is load up the flash ram and play from there for virtually all 8 hours.

Now instead jump from song to song, listening dynamically rather than via a playlist (flash use is minimized), set volume and EQ normally, and your battery plummets. I *have* had the ipod last about an hour here.

Now does the ipod caching model work on a PDA? I would argue that subtantially it does not. The ipod model is based on the playback of large files (multi-megabyte) in a semi predictable order, in a read only manner. PDA usage is small file access, with little predictability of which will be accessed next, in a read-write manner. That means substantially more frequent use of the HD. Caching writes in ram for 30-40 mins at a time (as the ipod does for reads) would be problematic. And unless that cache was non-volatile, it would also be tramatic should a reset happen, or a battery run down event.

"PPCs keep churning the file from the Microdrive; that baby keeps spinning while the MP3 plays. palmOne/PalmSource does not have to make the same mistake."

Well to be fair, they've already made the same mistake. PalmOS TrgPro's and HandEra 330's have long used the same Microdrives in the same fashion.

But an internal implementation could have different operating parameters.
I'm saying that it takes the current 1400mAh battery in my Tungsten C to give it minimum acceptable performance, and it takes the current 850mAh battery in the ipod to give it barely minimum performance. Popping an ipod like HD into my tungsten is going to require it to have a substantially larger battery to maintain minimum acceptable performance. Added bulk, added expense. It's a lot cheaper and simpler for PalmOne to add USB host, and let us use any USB mass storage device we like (especially ones with their own power source). Why limit yourself to an internal HD, when USB host or firewire gives you a plethora of options, including CD drives etc.

USB bridge functionality, without the USB bridge box in the middle.
http://www.delkin.com/delkin_products_usb_bridge.html


RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
hkklife @ 9/9/2004 2:20:31 PM #
Check Techbargains. Sandisk (speed & reliability issues fixed with the recent batch of Sandisks, btw) 1gb SD for $70 after $30 rebate.

If prices keep dropping like this we hopefully won't have to fret over HDs in a P1 device anytime soon. A 2gb SD card would really handle 99% of the needs for anyone other than mp3 & mpeg video junkies.



RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
rsc1000 @ 9/9/2004 3:34:37 PM #
>>I think this is false. The iPod gets its incredible battery life from just powering up the HD to *dump* the file in RAM. If a POS PDA did this too, I don't think it'd suck the life out in an hour. PPCs keep churning the file from the Microdrive; that baby keeps spinning while the MP3 plays. palmOne/PalmSource does not have to make the same mistake.

I think you mis-understand what is going here Mike. To paraphrase what cbowers said 2 posts above: iPods can do caching because they don't dump all of the HD to RAM (you think they have 20-40gb of RAM??). They can do caching because it is an mp3 player and is designed to simply cache the next x number of songs in a playlist. That can't work for a PDA or laptop because data is retrieved in a more dynamic, random way ('randomly accessable'). i.e.: the pda doesn't know what data you want until you go to get it - at which point there is no benefit in 'caching it'- because you now have the data.

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
Calroth @ 9/9/2004 7:36:42 PM #
"That can't work for a PDA or laptop because data is retrieved in a more dynamic, random way ('randomly accessable')."

I claim that it can work for a PDA.

Why? Because there is only one possible use for a hard drive in a PDA: MP3 files.

Office files? Nah, use flash. Dictionary files or e-books? Nah, use flash. There is no application for a PDA's hard drive that can't already be covered using flash memory (erk, double negative). The only possible application for a hard drive is MP3 files.

Of course, it's an excellent way to use a hard drive. Witness the iPod.

Oh, you could also use the hard drive as mobile storage. In which case, you're plugging it into a PC, so battery life doesn't matter.

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
treo007 @ 9/9/2004 10:13:05 PM #
Even though it's been going on for almost 4 years, I'm still amazed at the quickness with which some of you idiots go to the "Palm is Dead" well.

Look at the Treo, it dominates the U.S. market for cell phones(no, it's not the world, but they're obviously doing something right), and still everyone wants to predict Palm's demise. I could care less about PDA's, and I'll bet you the influential inside of PalmOne feel the same way right now. They've been the only ones getting anykind of traction in the smart phone market. Their opportunity is as great right now as when the original Pilot debuted.

Stock prices go up and down, especially when not even based on actual revenue and NOI numbers. Let's see who's standing in a couple of years.

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
cbowers @ 9/10/2004 12:12:00 AM #
"Why? Because there is only one possible use for a hard drive in a PDA: MP3 files."

Really. Funny. I have a 40GB ipod with less than 5GB free. Only 15GB of it is music thus far...



RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
AyDb @ 9/10/2004 3:43:56 AM #
Look at the Treo, it dominates the U.S. market for cell phones

No, the Treo does not even come remotely close to dominating the U.S. market for cell phones. It may be popular with the enterprise market, and with high muckety mucks, but even given a $500 price drop it still wouldn't be close to dominating the market. I think you're taking PalmOne's spin about how popular it is a little too seriously. Compared to the cheap phones you see at Radio Shack, and the popular higher-end like the LG VX7000 and the Motorola v600, the Treo 600 is still relatively small fry. It only 'dominates the market' if you look at the market for smartphones based on an open OS, which is still a small subset of phones in general.

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
mikecane @ 9/10/2004 9:59:40 AM #
>>>Why? Because there is only one possible use for a hard drive in a PDA: MP3 files.

>>>Office files? Nah, use flash. Dictionary files or e-books? Nah, use flash. There is no application for a PDA's hard drive that can't already be covered using flash memory (erk, double negative). The only possible application for a hard drive is MP3 files.

Geez, seems like the drcompanion software ardiri has done is a natural for a HD!

And if HDs and PDAs don't mix, then why the hell is a HD being put in a CELLPHONE?! Eh, eh?

http://www.engadget.com/entry/3486262272760351/


RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
cbowers @ 9/10/2004 10:37:57 AM #
"And if HDs and PDAs don't mix, then why the hell is a HD being put in a CELLPHONE?! Eh, eh?"

Yes, I'd yet that long before I posted.

1. Er, so if I go to Korea and get a patent for breathing air and get myself written up in Engadget, does that make it a good idea?

2. Let's think back on Samsung's history when it comes to announcing smartphones and then actually releasing them.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6599

By the time it comes out, battery and HD technology may well make this feasible. On the other hand flash pricing might also have done some interesting things...

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
Brad222 @ 9/10/2004 10:56:31 PM #
It'll be a while before I buy my next Palm, if ever. Recently my Zire 71 died. I had an extended warranty and it was sent off for repair. It took seven weeks to get it back. It was Palm's repair depot in Ontario that took so long to get the unit back to me. The bottom line was that in the seven weeks it was gone, I got used to being without it. My Palm went from being my primary daytimer, address book, etc to taking a back seat to my laptop. And, actually, I now prefer it that way. So design issues and price aside, why on earth would I buy another device from Palm when their service is so lousy? I'd have to think long and hard about it.

Brad

RE: The Fight isn't Over Yet
Calroth @ 9/12/2004 3:19:23 AM #
"Why? Because there is only one possible use for a hard drive in a PDA: MP3 files."

"Really. Funny. I have a 40GB ipod with less than 5GB free. Only 15GB of it is music thus far..."

Read the bottom of my post where I talk about "mobile storage".

"And if HDs and PDAs don't mix, then why the hell is a HD being put in a CELLPHONE?! Eh, eh?"

It's for MP3 playing, digital video, and mobile storage. The digital video will absolutely kill the battery. Read the bottom of my post where I talk about "mobile storage".

Another proof that Microsoft employs idiots

mikecane @ 9/9/2004 10:37:18 AM #
Heh. If MS keeps this up...

http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3021.html

RE: Another proof that Microsoft employs idiots
JonathanChoo @ 9/9/2004 3:02:04 PM #
Bill Gates: "D'uh!"

Like I want to pay for 128kbps compressed files.

--
Generic PDA > 5mx > Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > m550 > h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630 > K700i (nxt week)

Secret Society Required?

CaptMyCapt @ 9/9/2004 1:50:26 PM #
Maybe we need to form a secret society of PDA users and keep any new developments/models hidden from the Unknowing Soothsayers who rant and rave about how PDA's are dead!

From what I've seen on threads across the web, this would be quite a large society. I, and so many others desire the PDA for what it was designed to do, basic PDA functions, and in my opinion, they do it well. They are always improving, albeit somewhat slow for the Unknowing Soothsayers. What I can do with my T3 over my Palm Pilot is amazing, but it's still PDA functions. What my future T10 will do over my T3 will be even more amazing, but it will still be a PDA, hopefully. I'm sure P1 would love to continue to sell to the many "PDA" users for years to come! And, I bet there are a lot of us out here.

So, Unknowing Soothsayers, keep saying . . . and get lost in your negativity!

PDAers, LET US UNITE!

I, Captain

"You will never make progress trying to sail into the wind - chart your course!"

Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?

Foo Fighter @ 9/9/2004 5:12:23 PM #
http://www.pocketfactory.com/archives/2004/09/has_palmone_los.php

Could part of PalmOne's problem be that its designs just aren't exciting anymore? God I miss the good old days of the Palm V. :-(

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
Rome @ 9/9/2004 7:04:00 PM #
Good article, foo. This is hardly a defense for palmone; however, when compared to the pdas coming out of the dark side, palmone is still ahead. Dell, from a design point of view, is the biggest joke. Same old case from the previous generation for all three new current PDA models!!! Then gain, this is how they make their PCs, so that shouldn't be a surprise.

With Jeff Hawkins back as CTO, hopefully palmone will get some interesting designs out.

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
Foo Fighter @ 9/9/2004 9:52:51 PM #
You won't get any argument from me on that point. In fact, I predict HP's market share is going to plummet since they are killing off the highly successful iPaq 19xx series and replacing it with the ugly new models they've recently introduced. We'll see what happens.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
svrontis @ 9/9/2004 10:39:15 PM #
Foo,

Thanks for posting that link. I think it hits the nail on the head.

Let's face it, the Tungsten T line was great in terms of the specs, but p1 made a mistake with the form factor. Their thinking seems to have been - 'we need to make this look like it is equal to a PPC' - so they ended up with something which had all the aesthetic appeal of a brick.

Probably the engineering issues will not allow them to correct this error. With ever faster processors, bigger colour screens and wireless paraphenalia, you need a pretty big battery.

However, p1 may be able to do something with the next version of the Tungsten E line. I remember some guy took his TE apart and posted pictures on the internet. It looked to me like there was a lot of unusued space in there. If p1 were smart, they would take the opportunity to redesign the TE to make it thinner and adopt a better overall style (the old m500 series would be a great starting point). A slight improvement to the technical specs (eg, more RAM) with better styling, would take an already successful product to a new level.

Time will tell.

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
hkklife @ 9/9/2004 11:27:06 PM #
Agreed. Palm V was the most revolutionary for its time but the m500s "felt" better in the hand, had improved hardware buttons and secured the stylus (gotta LOVE the old V & m5xx half-exposed stylus placement) & case rail more securely as well.

T|E was a step in the right direction but still too brick-like and marred by cheap construction and that hideous shiny finish.

My dream PDA would be essentially similar specs to the T3 in an m500 formfactor (metal body of course). A T|C-style small D-pad would be perfectly acceptable in such a formfactor.

I could even live with so-so battery life. I'd just want a hardcase that fit as snugly & was as thin as the old Palm V aluminum hardcase!

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
Rome @ 9/10/2004 1:08:49 AM #
Almost forgot about HP. Good catch, Foo. While Dell didn't make changes to its PDA design, HP did and took a step, may be two, backward!!! This has to be a first in the history of technology. No wonder their mobile computing VP left for Dell:))

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
AyDb @ 9/10/2004 3:30:55 AM #
Dell, from a design point of view, is the biggest joke. Same old case from the previous generation for all three new current PDA models!!!

As opposed to the Tungsten T line, which has maintained the same casing for three generations?

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
Bostonnerd @ 9/10/2004 7:30:46 AM #
<>
Foo;
Maybe this is due to the fact that Palm did not design the V. All of the design (electical, mechanical, and industrial) was done by IDEO. IDEO was also responsible for the flat battery design in the V. They also did all of the Visor design as well


RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
mikecane @ 9/10/2004 9:56:45 AM #
I'm glad *someone else* besides me knew about IDEO. Geez, Foo!

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
Foo Fighter @ 9/10/2004 10:12:04 AM #
Yes, I'm well aware of IDEO's role in past Palm designs. Even the Zodiac got its genesis from a certain designer (the name escapes me). But does anyone know if PalmOne still outsources its product design to firms like IDEO, or is it being done in-house? That might explain a few things.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
ozz @ 9/10/2004 10:48:49 AM #
Design is alive and well, PalmOne just needs to go back to its roots and reinvent. It can be done.

http://urlcut.com/jake

_________________________
Lord, help me become the person my dog thinks I am!

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
mikecane @ 9/10/2004 10:52:37 AM #
I don't think the T3 is an ugly design. Nor the TE, either. Sure, they're not the hp 19xx -- but *hp* didn't do those, either! They're better-looking than the new low-end hps (which I now think remind me of that last gasp from Casio that ran raw CE; I forget its name...).

I don't like the Zod design for a PDA. For a game unit, I'm sure it's great. But the placement of that earphone jack would place it "upside down" in my shirt pocket. Then I'd go mad remembering to put it in "rightside up" when no earphone was in it. Feh! Not to mention the stylus placement. Seems like an afterthought!

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
hkklife @ 9/10/2004 12:03:25 PM #
The sad thing is that HP *CAN* do nice industrial design when they feel sufficiently motivated--although I don't know if it's done in-house or not. I have one of those nifty see-thru, vertically oriented HP Scanjet 4670s on the desk next to me right now. They have a new Photosmart digicam that has a front made of a single piece of curved, brushed aluminum. VERY sleek design and quite solid feeling too. Too bad the camera itself isn't anything special.

If they transfer even a smidgen of that craftsmanship to their '05 PPCs then they might be on to something...

I think the Zires (at least the mono ones and the Z31) were designed by Palm/P1 in-house but I'd imagine the Tungstens are still farmed out to someone else. Another Ideo design was the original Apple Lisa mouse and that fantastic looking but sadly underperforming Logitech PocketDigital camera from a few years back. Definitely Palm V influenced and one of the most elegant products I have used in recent memory. It uses a similar flat battery as the V as well.

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
Foo Fighter @ 9/10/2004 12:08:51 PM #
The T3 may not be "ugly" by definition, but its no Palm V...not by a longshot. As I said in the article, I haven't really seen a PDA in YEARS that comes close to offering the grace and flair of the Palm V/M5xx series. A couple years ago I sold my old M505 to my sis. Every damn time I look at it I can't help but notice just how GEEKY current PDAs look compared to the elegant classic Palm form factor. The V/M5xx was a PDA you were proud to carry. It was like wearing a Rolex watch. The Tungsten T3 looks more at home next to a pocket protector than a briefcase.

Such a shame the good old days are behind us.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
eston @ 9/10/2004 12:30:55 PM #
Oh isn't this true. In all honesty, (and I'm ready to take the flames I'm going to get for this), industrial design is what resurrected - and kept alive - Apple Computer in its current state. Why can't PalmOne do the same?

Honestly, anymore this site depresses me. Things have definitely calmed down too much since the peak of PDA craziness (2000-2001), and that craziness was the very reason I got into this in the first place. Palm needs to stop worrying about the Pocket PC.

The Palm V became wildly popular because it was simple, relatively inexpensive for IT departments, and it fit in your jacket pocket. When you had to use it in a business environment it looked like it belonged there as opposed to the "nerdy gadget-brick" designs of the Windows CE Palm-size devices of that day.

I agree that Palm can't design their own cases anymore. What they need to do is outsource design to IDEO like they did for the V and come up with another stellar form factor. Cut the features if need be to fit it into the case; the Palm V/Vx was *far* from cutting edge when Palm was selling it. The HP Jornada 540 series and the Casio E100 had color screens and SH3/MIPS processors, respectively. (In all honesty, I still think the Jornada 540 was a much prettier device than the H36xx iPaq form factor that took it over.) What did Palm have to offer in the Vx? Beautiful design, stellar battery life, and a simple operating system. You weren't worried about its 8MB of RAM (as opposed to the PPC with 16-32), its greyscale screen, or its small little Motorola 68K processor, because in the end it just *worked*.

When Apple released their G3 processors, clock speed was all the rage in the PC world, and people with little to no knowledge on the microprocessor subject found it suicide for Apple to release a machine - and attempt to market it in a mainstream fashion - with a 300MHz processor as it went up against Pentium III-class processors at 733-800MHz. What did Apple do? Educate their users on calculations completed and on the "efficiency" of the Mac OS. They had to drill into people's heads that clock speed wouldn't tell you the performance of the machine. They gave tests with Photoshop filters and MPEG rendering, frames per second rates in Quake, etc. showing that their machines could keep up with or eclipse PCs with a greater clock speed.

This is what Palm needs to do now. If they have to give me an Intel StrongARM running at 206MHz to fit it inside of a Palm V-size case I'd care less because the current Palm OS is pretty efficient; however, they're just going to have to differentiate their product - and their hardware demands - from the Pocket PC. I bought this ThinkPad X40 I'm typing on and it only has a 1.2GHz Pentium M, but I knew it would be fine for the business use I was giving it, because I knew that my hardware demands were less than those of 'mobile' gamers. Most people don't look at the numbers that way (this is the same reason people look at horsepower numbers when buying cars, although torque is what really moves the car).

Acting like a Pocket PC underdog is going to make you the Pocket PC underdog, so differentiate. Apple's doing great right now.


P.S. Did IDEO design the Visor Edge?

..: eston
http://www.hyalineskies.com/

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
mikecane @ 9/10/2004 12:31:16 PM #
I *hated* the PalmV. Looked like it was the head of a hatchet. The m5xx series had the sleeker design. And better case color too.

RE: Has PalmOne Lost Its Design Touch?
hussain @ 9/10/2004 9:20:58 PM #
I wouldn't buy an dell cause it's so ugly, the T|E is based on the palm V not enough thought it still shares many of it's stylings.

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