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Comments on: David Pogue Reviews the Tungsten T5

David Pogue, co-author of the book Piloting Palm, has just published his review of the palmOne Tungsten T5 in the New York Times. The review comes to a number of insightful conclusions about the T5 including the lack of Wi-Fi as well as the removal of key features present in the T3.
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Honest review

neuron @ 11/5/2004 5:18:56 PM #
Wow, it is as good and honest as the rz715 review in www.bargainpda.com.

RE: Honest review
LiveFaith @ 11/5/2004 11:12:10 PM #
That's 1715 I think. Nonetheless, that is a good comparison review. It's great when reviewers are free enough of the "Editor$ hammer" to tell the truth, even if it is ugly. Great for the consumer.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Honest review
Patrick @ 11/6/2004 1:50:57 PM #
"Yet for all its steps backward, the T5 offers one huge leap forward: a design idea so fresh, so clever and so useful, it may offset all of those trimmed features put together.
Ready or not, here it comes: This palmtop is also a flash drive."


If I were the folks at Softick, I'd be pretty insulted by this. They were the ones with the so-called "fresh" and "clever" design idea and were able to put it into actual use with their Card Export II product long before the me-too implemention by P1. Going back even further, you have envicon with their SyncWizard giving a view into both the card and the internal RAM -- although their solution didn't present the results as virtual drives.

I get the feeling David Pogue felt he had to say something nice, so gushed inappropriately about a feature which has been in very routine use (on my Palm at least) for a couple years.


RE: Honest review
Calroth @ 11/6/2004 10:46:24 PM #
"...about a feature which has been in very routine use (on my Palm at least) for a couple years..."

Yes. However, you make the assumption that, just because you have been using it, everybody else has too. You can't extrapolate that way. For 99% of Palm users out there, this is a feature which would have never occurred to them, but which seems obvious and useful once it has. It seems obvious and useful to David Pogue. You are not 99% of users.

And if I were the folks at Softick, I would be really happy. Because a lot more people will know about this feature, and they can say, you don't have to buy a Tungsten T5 to get this feature, just use our software. And people will do it, because it's cheaper to buy Card Export II than a T5.

(I am also a happy Card Export II user.)

RE: Honest review
Patrick @ 11/7/2004 1:48:14 PM #
I made no such assumption. How can you call the T5's function "fresh" when a similar capability has been around for years? How can you call it "clever" when someone else had the idea first? The terminology used was all about the feature's newness, not its popularity.

And if I were Softick, I wouldn't be happy at all that the makers of the operating system will now likely bundle this feature with all new devices. Kinda like what Microsoft did with IE killing off Netscape's profitability. What software developer would be happy with that? So Softick gets a little bump in sales for legacy models, then the product is toast.

Should hardware companies include complete software bundles?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/7/2004 2:19:24 PM #
How can you call the T5's function "fresh" when a similar capability has been around for years? How can you call it "clever" when someone else had the idea first? The terminology used was all about the feature's newness, not its popularity.

And if I were Softick, I wouldn't be happy at all that the makers of the operating system will now likely bundle this feature with all new devices. Kinda like what Microsoft did with IE killing off Netscape's profitability. What software developer would be happy with that? So Softick gets a little bump in sales for legacy models, then the product is toast.

Your logic seem somewhat fractured. First of all, having this ability FULLY INTEGRATED (well, almost - you still need the stupid proprietary cable! Way to go, Palm!) into a PDA right out of the box is a new and VERY innovative feature. That Pogue is knowledgeable enough to allude to the little-known (by typical Palm users) Card Export II shows why he's generally well-regarded as a mainstream reviewer. Secondly, your argument against Palm advancing features because it kills off third patry vendors is absurd. For years, Palm used this mantra as an excuse for not giving users any added value. Eventually they changed their tune and started bundling apps like MultiMail/VersaMail, Documents To Go, MP3 players, photo viewers, etc into their PDAs. Since many users never add any software to their PDAs, Palm including as many useful apps as possible in the ROM is A Good Thing. If companies offering competing products lack the features that compel people to keep buying them, they wither and die. It's called survival of the fittest (or luckiest to be chosen by the OEM). SnapperMail, MMPlayer, WordSmith, etc. are still around despite Palm now packaging competing apps with their hardware, just as Quicken, Opera, and WinAmp continue to battle Microsoft's Borg-like attempts to assimilate all product categories into a single Billy G. approved™ package. It's called maturation of the platform. And yes, if it's your livelihood that's affected, it bites. Life is hard.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Honest review
Calroth @ 11/7/2004 5:24:26 PM #
'How can you call the T5's function "fresh" when a similar capability has been around for years? How can you call it "clever" when someone else had the idea first? The terminology used was all about the feature's newness, not its popularity.'

Seriously. If it's new to 90% of people, I call it new. If it's fresh to 90% of people, I call it fresh.

Yes, it's about popularity. If people don't know about it, it is literally useless. The best technology in the world is useless if people don't know it exists.

RE: Honest review
Tere @ 11/8/2004 10:58:21 AM #

Two points:

1) New? Fresh? How about the Newton? Almost every PDA
user in 1997 knew it's internal memory was flash.

2) Card Export II has the advantage that "Flash Drive"
(i.e. SD card) will survive a full hard (power button). *All*
the memory, flash drivce included, is wiped by a hard reset
on the T5. So you still need backup strategy.

Of course, you could always add Card Export and an SD card to
the T5.

- Tere

- Tere

RE: Honest review
Patrick @ 11/8/2004 5:08:22 PM #
[i]Secondly, your argument against Palm advancing features because it kills off third patry vendors is absurd.[/i]

Oh, brother. Point to the place where I argue against Palm advancing features? I'm not passing judgement on Palm anywhere. Survival of the fittest is absolutely fine with me. I'm talking about the effect of the practice on Softick as a counterpoint to this line put forward by Calroth:

[i]And if I were the folks at Softick, I would be really happy.[/i]

Which I really don't think is the case.

Its fine you call yourself the [i]voice[/i] of reason, but it would sure help if you used your faculty of sight to read what people actually wrote before using the voice part.



RE: Honest review
Calroth @ 11/8/2004 5:55:18 PM #
There are millions of Palm OS devices out there that are not the T5. Softick has a market of millions of devices. palmOne are doing the advertising, all Softick has to say is, hey, this feature is great, but if you want it on your current Palm, and don't want a T5, buy Card Export II.

Going forward, it may be a problem for Softick if palmOne puts it on all their devices from now on. But they won't! Witness the Treo 650, it doesn't have it. I bet the Zire series won't have it either, for two reasons: you need a lot of onboard memory, and they want to differentiate the Tungsten line from the Zire line.

So, in the future, Softick also has the market of all Treo and Zire users.

In fact, they're almost two different products. The T5 feature converts your T5 into a flash drive. Card Export II converts your Palm into a USB card reader. They're subtle differences (and yes, I know that the T5 also converts your Palm into a USB card reader).

Comes to show

vesther @ 11/5/2004 5:49:20 PM #
Well, it looks like that PalmOne better come up with a Tungsten T3-wannabe with the Jump Drive feature of the Tungsten T5 and add Wi-Fi as well, plus an OLED Display too.

I think that the "Slidable" Tungsten would likely be called the Tungsten Z if it has the body of the Tungsten T3 and the jump drive feature of the Tungsten T5, AND it has all the goods of the Tungsten C.

I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!

RE: Comes to show
LiveFaith @ 11/5/2004 11:14:16 PM #
Vesther,

I believe that sort of thinking should have taken place last spring if it were to result in anything. The T5 is just a plain and simple slap in the face.

Sell this thing at $299 as the TE2, even with 64mb, and it would have those little ribbons and labels all around it on e-commerce sites. I feel sorry for the average P1 employee who has to be "excited" about their company right now.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Check out the video on the review site

crimewave @ 11/5/2004 6:22:37 PM #
If you watch the CNet video review in the links page of the review, you'll see the palm crash and display some errors. Very funny. way to go palm...
crimewave

Computers don't make mistakes, people do.
RE: Check out the video on the review site
LiveFaith @ 11/5/2004 11:47:46 PM #
Maybe the T5 is just an early April Fools scam and we'll all wake up on Christmas Morning with a real T4 with wifi, vib alarms, flashing alarms, slider, bright screen & Cobalt.

P1 popped up 11.5% today after an ugly fall from $40 for the last few weeks, so maybe the analysts know it's all just a bad dream too?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Check out the video on the review site
Strider_mt2k @ 11/6/2004 12:00:50 PM #
Wow you are right about those errors!

They are mostly off screen, but I saw two distinct error messages being displayed at two different points.

Can't keep it together long enough for the "review".

Nice how nothing is mentioned about that. She's just droning on and on about the "features" in that annoying "are you asking me, or telling me?" delivery.

Much more of a showcase than a review.



RE: Check out the video on the review site
vesther @ 11/6/2004 9:48:36 PM #
Likely the editor had a pre-release version of the Tungsten T5 with all the unoptimized code built-in the Flash ROM of the Tungsten T5. I think the video was released prior to palmOne releasing a Flash ROM update to the Tungsten T5 IMO.

I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!

The T5 Face-To- Face

dhl @ 11/5/2004 11:53:35 PM #
I was at Circuit City today and saw the T5. The pictures actually show it a lot better than the real thing. This is a very cheap looking, feeling PDA. Tried to work with it a little and it lock up on me and I nothing I could do to get it to work. Would not turn off, nothing. Could not preform a soft reset as the Circuit City security device was stuck over the reset hole. Just as well, as I had the urge to just through it on the tile to put it out of its misery. There is no way I would "move down" by purchasing this PDA over my T3.

RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
neuron @ 11/6/2004 12:27:54 AM #
You were not playing the one in CC@Tuscaloosa, AL? I was there today and it was frozen, like dead. I can't reset it either.

RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
DevPOV @ 11/6/2004 2:13:26 AM #
Or was it the Circuit City in Portland? That one was locked-up bad.

RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
Foo Fighter @ 11/6/2004 10:19:23 AM #
Well it must still look a heck of a lot better than the Zire 72 I saw in my local Best Buy. Half the paint was gone. It should have had a big "CENSORED" sign to cover all that naked plastic. Mothers were covering their children's eyes. What a sight.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
Peeling Zire 72 - The Pole Edition?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/6/2004 10:50:14 AM #
Well it must still look a heck of a lot better than the Zire 72 I saw in my local Best Buy. Half the paint was gone. It should have had a big "CENSORED" sign to cover all that naked plastic. Mothers were covering their children's eyes. What a sight.

Is it true Palm is coming out with half stripped special Edition Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera Zire 72? This is a great idea - it might open up a whole new market for Palm (dim-witted, tone deaf teens). This probably explains why Palm started selling a fishnet stocking case for the Zire 72 earlier this month. Wow. What next? A gag over the SD slot?

By the way, what's wrong with nudity? I don't think parents should give their children the message that nudity is wrong or "dirty". Naked plastic is A Good Thing. More cheap, naked plastic please, Palm!




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
Foo Fighter @ 11/6/2004 7:47:31 PM #
>> "Is it true Palm is coming out with half stripped special Edition Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera Zire 72?"

Actually, it's the Janet Jackson edition...complete with "casing malfunction". It even includes a nipple tassel for the D-Pad. I expect it to be a big seller with desperate teenage boys. Note I said DESPERATE. Hey! Maybe there's a market for PalmOne to sell Zire condoms to cover all that "naked" plastic? That way they can screw Zire owners the way they did the Tungsten market with the T5, and make money at the same time.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

OK, Kent. You win.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/6/2004 8:11:58 PM #
Zire CondomZ™

(Stored in the SD slot? They start out blue and then turn silver with a little friction? And what's that humming sound? Maybe Palm will do a Special Edition Zire 69 bundled with some "personal lubricant" and a high res version of Palmasutra.)

At least if Palm is screwing its customers it's responsible enough to do it safer! Of course, the way Palm's quality control has been in recent years, I expect 25% of the condoms will break...



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
gidora @ 11/6/2004 11:58:55 PM #
I played with one for half an hour at CompUSA today. It looks and feels solid. Only a tad longer than the T3, and infact only about as long as the T3 is to the T/T2.

First off, as much as I hate to admit it, the slider and all its work-arounds have been a complete waste of time. And though the screen isn't as bright as the T3's, it's still much brighter than the Ts and T2s or Z72s.

My biggest concern was the speed - someone mentioned that apps seemed to launch more slowly due to the new memory scheme. Not so, it seems just as fast as the T3, and certainly faster than most PPCs. Someone else mentioned that Graffiti seemed sluggish, but I didn't notice that either. Drawing on the notepad was just as fast and accurate as the T3. Flipping the screen was also instantaneous and glitch-free, again ... I had heard it was blinky.

Surfed with Blazer 4 via my TMO phone and was impressed with its speed and quality. Thought about the nonvolatile memory. Thought wow, this thing is great, especially if it has better battery life than the older Ts. That alone might be worth the upgrade. I could live this.

Needless to say, I was sold.

RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
twagner @ 11/7/2004 12:01:35 PM #
I bought a T-5. The larger screen is great and you got to love it. I'd rather have Bluetooth than WiFi because I can get on the web anywhere with my cellphone. When using GSM/dial-up mode I can even browse for free. The new web browser works real well. All the Apps work flawlessly, actually they are upgraded and better. The battery lasts longer than my T-E and Zire 72 did. The extra internal memory is a big plus. All my pda friends are jealous. C'mon guys, don't be cheap... it's worth it!
RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
vesther @ 11/7/2004 2:07:25 PM #
[i]I bought a T-5. The larger screen is great and you got to love it. I'd rather have Bluetooth than WiFi because I can get on the web anywhere with my cellphone. When using GSM/dial-up mode I can even browse for free. The new web browser works real well. All the Apps work flawlessly, actually they are upgraded and better. The battery lasts longer than my T-E and Zire 72 did. The extra internal memory is a big plus. All my pda friends are jealous. C'mon guys, don't be cheap... it's worth it!
[/i]

But don't you think that Wi-Fi is just as important as Bluetooth?

I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!

RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
twagner @ 11/8/2004 10:12:42 AM #
WiFi is not important if you can get online anywhere using your cellphone and Bluetooth. WiFi requires hotspots, the cellphone works (almost) anywhere.
RE: The T5 Face-To- Face
AyDb @ 11/9/2004 11:31:39 AM #
WiFi is every bit as important as Bluetooth if not more so. Ever tried connecting to a home or office ethernet network via Bluetooth? Streaming 128 Kbit MP3s from your desktop? VNC? Ever tried running a low-latency application over a cell phone link?

The only reason Bluetooth is considered so important is because it's all PalmOne has got.

I like the T5

Gankaku @ 11/6/2004 12:07:43 PM #
I recently bought a T5 in spite of all the negative publicity. And the negative publicity is legit; they did indeed take away a bunch of things (recorder, vibrating alarm), not put in what they should have (WiFi). I'm a long time user of the T1, which I liked well, until the third one finally developed the infamous digitizer drift and forced me to consider what to get next.

I never liked the slider, it's just an extra motion. In this regard, I think the T5 is a huge step up. The large screen is always visible. The fact that it's slightly longer isn't a deal breaker for me. I think it's a whole lot more esthetic that way and quicker and easier to access. It's a bit thinner than the T1 which compensates somewhat for the length.

The larger memory and higher speed (esp compared to the T1) are quite nice.

I agree, it's overpriced and that they've cut some corners to save some money - but it's got the key elements I need: a big nice screen, no slider, lots of memory, and a fast processor. If I need WiFi I suppose I can buy a card but it'd have been nice to have it integrated.



RE: I like the T5
vesther @ 11/6/2004 9:43:42 PM #
Gan:

I wrote a letter to the palmOne corporate office on what I'm expecting on their next handheld effort so that this would not happen again. The major negatives include no charge indicator, no vibrate (This is going to be a minus because what happens if you are in a meeting and you had to silence your PDA? How are you supposed to know if something is gonna "kick-in"?), no Voice Memo. These are the three key features that is expected on a High-End Handheld. With regards of the Charge Indicator, I told the palmOne Corporate Office that the charge indicator not only should indicate whether or not the handheld is charging, but also when the handheld is fully charged as well.

You probably won't see Wi-Fi Drivers for the PalmOne Tungsten T5 from the Wi-Fi Card from palmOne until sometime in the middle of the month, likely first full month would be December. I would recommend a Hard Case, a Universal Wireless Keyboard, and spare stylies for the PalmOne Tungsten T5.

I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!

RE: I like the T5
just_little_me @ 11/7/2004 7:17:42 PM #
The WiFi drivers already exist for the T5 - just not released yet. I've played with a T5 that had a WiFi card in it. Worked great. Plus the T5/WiFi bundle in some regions is very very cheap (like an additional $30 for the WiFi card!). I'd still like to see memory on the WiFi card, but that's another story.


JLM.

RE: I like the T5
gidora @ 11/8/2004 3:22:52 PM #
Hey JLM

Howz about sharing it with us? Does it work w/SanDisk WiFi?

Can it be any more obvious?

adamsmark @ 11/7/2004 3:11:32 AM #
\\Another negative review for the T5. Gosh, this unit is a dog. At $400, yeah, the high-end user is going to expect more, and more memory and no slider ain't the "more" we've been looking for. But enough has been said about the T5's shortcomings (certainly I've posted enough negative press on this); it's simply that critical reviews have, well, been critical of P1's latest entry into the high-end, handheld market (for those of you who think the T5 is a great machine, just overpriced: my point exactly!).

Imagine the T5 were a car:

"The T5 sports many improvements over its predecessor, the T3. But while it gets 30 more miles to the gallon, P1's decision to remove anti-lock breaks and high-beam headlights is a major step backwards. Would have been the perfect car save those two details (oh, that P1 still hasn't added side-air protection yet, that's another drawback)."

RE: Can it be any more obvious?
Hotoru @ 11/7/2004 5:41:52 PM #
And the car costs $2500 more than last years model..hehe I think this will appeal to many consumers. I am just not sure how it took them a year to turn this thing out. Must have taken most of the engineers off to work on the Treo 650. That one may be a success. Though, I am bummed about only VGA camera.

Hotoru

RE: Can it be any more obvious?
JPVann @ 11/8/2004 1:17:19 AM #
I bought a HP 4700 before a trip last week - and love it, albeit with reservations.

I resisted the thought - love Palm functionality - but w the T5 a no show on wireless, that did it.

Screen, size, weight are great - much smaller than pics on the web made me think. Caution however - Microsoft does as many bad things on a Pocket PC that it does on a PDA. I have been scratching my head - can they pay me $200k a year to pre-approve the mess they make of things?

Jer 23:29

I gave up

sremick @ 11/8/2004 8:50:35 AM #
I gave up on the T5 and ordered a replacement T3 for my stolen T3. In summary: although I could live without the slider (was actually trying to resurrect the appeal of having a PDA without it), critical issues were the lack of vibrating alarm, charge light, speaker on the back instead of the front, lack of WiFi (if I'm going to pay that price premium at this day and age, it needs WiFi), and no way to use Graffiti 1. I just could not live with that. I was also very disappointed in the lack of a cradle.

As much as I desired the bigger battery and more memory, it lacked too much else with no remedy. So now I get another T3 and can get back to where I was before, and still have my old cradle so I'll end up with 2 which will be nice plus my Vaja case was actually off the unit when it was stolen so there's another $80 saved. Not to mention my remaining screen protectors. I also ordered a 1GB SD card instead of the 256MB one I had before, and the WiFi card (which I know will suck battery but I want it anyway).



http://vtbsd.net/winhelp/

Nevertheless

lwehrung @ 11/8/2004 10:22:53 AM #
While there is a consensus across the vocal Palm community that the T5 is a dud, others seem to think differently. At Amazon.com, it is 6th top selling PDA. On C|Net, it is the 6th most popular PDA.

Best regards,
Lance

---------------------------------------
http://www.palmfocus.com

RE: Nevertheless
Gekko @ 11/8/2004 10:59:21 AM #

6th place loser.



Sex, Lies and Palms.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/8/2004 12:05:13 PM #
Wait a minute. Is this the same "Lance" that yesterday someone claimed had posted a very positive "review" about the T"5" on another site?


I wonder if "Lance" works for Palm? Didn't Microsoft once get caught having their employees posting to internet sites pretending to be satisfied customers? Hmmmmmm...

Best advice for people out there is read as much as you can, but take it all with a grain of salt. Then try the PDAs out for yourselves and see who's telling the truth.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Nevertheless
Admin @ 11/8/2004 12:20:02 PM #
Voice - are there any articles you can point me to about MS employees getting caught posting on forums?
Why you should always be suspicious of what you read...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/8/2004 4:29:44 PM #
are there any articles you can point me to about MS employees getting caught posting on forums?

The process is called "astroturfing" (from it creating a fake grassroots swell of opinion). Do a Google serch for "astroturfing + Microsoft" or "astroturf + Microsoft" and you'll see a lot of examples. These days most companies are sophisticated enough that they never get caught, but sometimes these idiots even post messages from within their companies, leaving trails that expose who they really are.

http://www.users.qwest.net/~eballen1/msft.shilling.html

http://www.redtailcanyon.com/items/260671.aspx

A little different use Microsoft found for astroturfing:

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,17745,00.html

http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/13046.html

By the way, it's nice to see you posted the link to Red Mercury's atricle on NAND Flash. I hope you and others now see why I feel that NAND Flash is A Bad Thing.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Nevertheless
just_little_me @ 11/9/2004 7:27:35 AM #
And of course we have to take everything *you* say as gospel. Gimme a break... there's nothing worse than someone pontificating about others pontificating...! Sure it pays to read everything slowly (and twice), but you *obviously* have an axe to grind...


JLM.

RE: Nevertheless
Wollombi @ 11/12/2004 1:38:25 PM #
>>"I wonder if "Lance" works for Palm? Didn't Microsoft once get caught having their employees posting to internet sites pretending to be satisfied customers? Hmmmmmm..."<<

Lance is a well respected regular over at 1src.com, and has been for some time. You should check your facts before speaking, as your comments above border on libel, for which you can be legally held accountable for even on internet forums.

You need to have some reason before you can be the voice of it. Right now you come across more like "The Voice of Wild, Blind and Foolish Speculation".

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

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