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Comments on: palmOne Responds to Flash Memory Issue

palmOne has released a statement regarding the NVFS Flash memory predicament. In short, the company acknowledges the situation and says they will work on a update solution for the Tungsten T5 and Treo 650 to recapture memory-space and will offer a free 128MB SD card upon request.
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Good move

treo007 @ 11/25/2004 3:29:19 AM #
They definately screwed up, but seldom have a seen a corporation admit it this quickly and try to fix it.

RE: Good move
robman @ 11/25/2004 5:33:00 AM #
I will say this, the issue does not seem like one that would arise readily in product testing so I am not surprised that customers would find out about before PalmOne.

I also think PIC is party responsible for the fast response! Good work, everyone!

Palm Enthusiast since 1998

RE: Good move
Wolfgard @ 11/25/2004 5:40:07 AM #
This proves that P1 is depending on the success of the Treo650 to keep it alive. That's why they responded to the problem so quickly so it doesn't affect the Treo's sales. I guess we know where P1 stands now.

pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55
RE: Good move
JonathanChoo @ 11/25/2004 7:08:54 AM #
Personally I think its a non issue but regardless its nice seeing palmOne doing something for its power users.
RE: Good move
Strider_mt2k @ 11/25/2004 7:12:36 AM #
Agreed.
'fessing up and helping to fix the problem is a good thing!
Offering some memory cards should help the situation on a practical level, and a little make-up gift doesn't hurt.

I hope they can work this out to everyone's satisfaction.



RE: Good move
ChippyAft @ 11/25/2004 7:55:08 AM #
Great. Perhaps they could now respond to why they are selling a plastic Tungsten E2 for $400 and calling it a flagship model?

RE: Good move
4s @ 11/25/2004 8:04:33 AM #
I hardly think the T5 is PalmOne's flagship model. I received a catalog from them in the mail yesterday that had a 6" by 3" picture of the Treo 650 on the front and a 2" by 2" picture of the T5. I think that about sums it up.

<><
RE: Good move
kpr @ 11/25/2004 8:05:36 AM #
"Great. Perhaps they could now respond to why they are selling a plastic Tungsten E2 for $400 and calling it a flagship model?"

Yeah. And then start shipping the real flagship T5 we have all been waiting for with:
- Wi-Fi (and Bluetooth)
- 128MB RAM
- better compatibility with 3rd party software
- instantaneous global finds
- no user interface glitches
- front facing speaker
- vibrating alarm
- LED charging status and alarm indicator
- microphone and voice record button
- quick clock access when off
- better alarm sound choices
- fast resets like T3 and TC
- retain Flash memory on hard resets and make it faster
- include the cradle
- keep the universal connector

all wrapped in a beautiful rugged metal case.

RE: Good move
JonathanChoo @ 11/25/2004 8:08:20 AM #
Once the Treo 650 comes to the UK, it would easily cost double the T5's price. How can you call T5 flagship then?
RE: Good move
ChippyAft @ 11/25/2004 9:06:54 AM #
I'm certainly not calling it a flagship model - hence my post. But by naming it the 'Tungsten T5', and charging $400, I think it's clear that Palm are positioning it as their flagship PDA.

(The Treo line is a different market sector.)

RE: Good move
Gekko @ 11/25/2004 9:25:10 AM #

Choo - you are one of the biggest Palm apologists on this forum and I find your intellectual dishonesty disgusting.



RE: Good move
TooMuch @ 11/25/2004 9:39:38 AM #
"Wolfgard @ 11/25/2004 5:40:07 AM
This proves that P1 is depending on the success of the Treo650 to keep it alive. That's why they responded to the problem so quickly so it doesn't affect the Treo's sales. I guess we know where P1 stands now."

And the "Too Much Award" goes to...Wolfgard. Just following the above rationale one could also conclude...

"Since P1 responded in just a couple of days to this problem in order to survive Treo sales and thus P1 itself, thus we can conclude that since Wolfgard responded to P1's announcement in just a couple of HOURS therefore this shows that Wolfgard hopes to retain what remaining little bit of common sense such ridiculous reasoning depletes from the brain. I guess we know where Wolfgard stands now."

Now Wolfgard; let's not start another episode of P1 "cliff diving."

TooMuch :)

RE: Good move
vesther @ 11/25/2004 10:20:14 AM #
Looks like palmOne listened--I hope palmOne will be listening to their power users (Like I said before, I faxed them a letter of concern to their corporate office) for their next effort, and hopefully, will create a better handheld for their power user segment.

I think the Power User Handheld's likely to be a Zire, but maybe Tungsten, depending on the nature of the handheld.

But for now, palmOne is glad they have listened to the controversy of the NVFS.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

RE: Good move
Wolfgard @ 11/25/2004 10:45:09 AM #
Hope they fix this or revert back to RAM for their next PDA phone. I'm starting to look for replacements for my current phone and maybe switching around mid next year. As of now, the Sony Ericsson p910 still looks like better phone than the Treo650.

pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55
RE: Good move
JonathanChoo @ 11/25/2004 11:07:47 AM #
Me a Palm apologist? No, I just do my research first before posting.
RE: Good move
batmon @ 11/25/2004 11:42:56 AM #
Check out Palmone site... every Palm PDA you purcahse will get a free 128MB SD card anyway. They are trying to use promotion item as a "fix"... What a deal.

RE: Good move
SeldomVisitor @ 11/25/2004 12:00:36 PM #
Now THAT'S funny - you are too right!

Wonder if THAT will hit the Me-Too Media!?

Lol!

Whatta game!

RE: Good move
Patrick @ 11/25/2004 12:39:28 PM #
Well, to date I've heard absolutely zero talk on the Treo boards of people getting a 128 MB card with their 650's. This tells me that the promotion that is now in effect was NOT in effect for the original Treo 650 purchases. So at the very least, this is something additional FOR THEM.

What is it about this 128 MB card that people are so upset about? It has been widely known that the 60 has 23 MB of usable memory and certainly everyone who bought one knew it in advance. What people did not know in advance was the 30% premium that data and applications demanded. Palm is working to fix this. In the mean time they're offering this card. Why the heck do folks see that as a bad thing? It boggles the mind.

And before you flame me for being a so-called "apologist" (what a handy label that is), I absolutely agree that the 650 should have had more memory in the first place. But for that there is also a strategy you can adopt to get around the problem: don't buy it.

RE: Good move
TooMuch @ 11/25/2004 5:17:41 PM #
"...What is it about this 128 MB card that people are so upset about?..."

Patrick, it's not about the 128 card. It's about trying to see who can whine the most.

RE: Good move
Admin @ 11/26/2004 11:42:13 AM #
I personally think this is a great and swift move. Does anyone recall how long it took for palm to admit up to the m505 SUDS issues and the m130 color count? This is a record turnaround.
-Ryan
RE: Good move
Gekko @ 11/26/2004 11:50:05 AM #
>"I personally think this is a great and swift move. Does anyone recall how long it took for palm to admit up to the m505 SUDS issues and the m130 color count?"

1. GREAT move?
a. P1 is already giving away 128MB Cards for FREE with TE's.
b. An SD Card is NO SUBSTITUTE for REAL RAM. Adding a hard drive to a PC does not increase its System RAM.
c. 128MB SD Cards can be had for $10.
d. I seriously doubt that P1 will be able to offer a REAL fix to this due to architectural/manufacturing/design issues.

2. Palm had to get SUED first before they "fixed" the m505 SUDS and m130 color count issues.

Mark my words: We're in for some more "surprises" with the T5/T650!



RE: Good move
Patrick @ 11/26/2004 4:25:36 PM #
I agree, this is a good move by P1. They made mistakes in not doing enough testing before releasing the 650, but we're here now. I don't know what more you could ask of them in terms of a response.

I don't think it can be more obvious that P1 doesn't consider the SD card to be a substitute for more RAM, hence their words ... "to help with memory management until the ROM upgrade becomes available".

Until they actually come up with a fix, predicting it will be a failure seems rather pointless. It may be, but I think there ought to be a number of avenues for them to try. A logical sector size of, say, 64 bytes ought to cut the memory premium down considerably, if that solution turns out to be feasible.

RE: Good move
Gekko @ 11/26/2004 4:46:18 PM #

Free 128MB Memory Card with Zire 72 handheld!
Free 128MB Memory Card with Tungsten C handheld!
Free 128MB Memory Card with Tungsten E handheld!

http://store.palmone.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1438326



RE: Good move
LiveFaith @ 11/27/2004 11:01:10 AM #
This is one of the strongest and most decisive corrections that I can ever remember from a tech company. Pretty impressive in my book.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Good move
Gekko @ 11/27/2004 11:06:24 AM #

Pat - please post a link for the picture of your SuperTreo! Search is down on PIC and I can't friggin find your pic!

THANKS!



RE: Good move
RhinoSteve @ 11/29/2004 4:41:49 PM #
Frankly, it is a good response. However, this is mostly a stick-a-pacifier-in-the-crying-baby move that will keep you techies quite for a while 'til you find something else to moan about.

SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM

Gekko @ 11/25/2004 9:11:43 AM #

Re: The "Fix":

1. Companies don't do things to be nice. They do things BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO.

2. A 128MB SD Card and a promise of a ROM fix would not be good enough for me. This NVFS RAM was a bad idea.

Do it right from the BEGINNING. Do it right the FIRST TIME. Don't rely on your customers to BETA TEST your products.

Is Palm trying to sell a PREMIUM-PRICED device to AVERAGE JOES? Bad strategy. AVERAGE JOE LIKES CHEAP-PRICED. And nobody wants PREMIUM-PRICED with SKIMPY-SPECS. Customers are not fools. Deliver value or DIE.



RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
TooMuch @ 11/25/2004 9:58:15 AM #
"TOO MUCH!"

Gekko, are you a performer with "Cirque du Soleil?"



RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Wolfgard @ 11/25/2004 10:48:52 AM #
I kinda agree with Gekko on this point. They should've beta tested this device (and the T5) more in depth before launching it. I hate it when developers do the 'release first, then patch' routine.

pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55
RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
TooMuch @ 11/25/2004 11:08:15 AM #
It's not that I disagree with obvious errors. It is the constant diahrea of baloney many wrap the complaints in that call for the humor.

Wow...
orb2069 @ 11/25/2004 11:50:38 AM #
Half the board is complaining about how this unit should have been tested longer....

And the other half is saying that there aren't enough features, or that this unit should have been released even earlier.

Does this mean they got it right? (Under the 'A good compromise is one that leaves all parties equally dissatisfied' guideline.)

1000->Personal->IRUpgrade->TRGPro->HE330->Treo 180

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
dsaroff @ 11/25/2004 2:16:09 PM #
Gekko--

After reading your posts, I HAVE to wonder if anything Palm1 does could satisfy you?

I like my Palm, but I also recognize it has short comings.

Do you ACTUALLY see anything good in Palm1 or are you simply a PPC bigot? Frankly, if your comments, even negative, were constructive, I would support your position. But you tend to provide ad hominem attacks.

Honest question:

WHY do you visit these boards if you HATE all things Palm. Why don't you simply leave us ignorant Palmist to wallow in our mistaken perceptions until PPC wins over the world.

Seriously. I don't go to PPC web sites to lambast those users and their products. I'm interested in Palm, I prefer Palm, but I am not going to trash PPC users. Those actions provide me with no benefit. I simply want to support my community, so I may have a better experience.

Please, could you provide answers to my questions in an impersonal manner. I'm genuinely curious.

I will thank you in advance for a direct reply.

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Kesh @ 11/25/2004 4:17:32 PM #
Gekko's a troll. He only comes here to rant and get people riled up. It's quite sad.

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Gekko @ 11/25/2004 4:20:31 PM #

dsaroff - why must you and others be so DENSE????? Why must I explain the OBVIOUS????????????????????????????????

I have bought a Palm III, V, m505, m515, T1, and T3. Each time was an UPGRADE and I was very satisfied with each new product. I have a lot of time and money invested in the Palm platform.

Now I have my T3 and am looking for my next upgrade - and what does Palm give me????? A BULLSHIIT T5 and a BULLSHIIT TREO 650.

IS THAT FRIGGIN CLEAR ENOUGH FOR ALL OF THE IMBECILES THAT WANT TO ATTACK MY CRITICISMS??????????????????????????????? I CALL IT THE WAY I SEE IT - AND WHEN I SEE A GOOD QUALITY/VALUE PRODUCT I WILL TELL YOU BUT WHEN I SEE BULLSHIIIT AND GARBAGE I WILL BIITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE TO YOU DENSE, DUMB, BLIND, HEAD-BURIED-IN-THE-SAND PALM-CAN-DO-NO-WRONG PALM APOLOGISTS????????????????????

STOP QUESTIONING MY MOTIVES AND START QUESTIONING THE BULLSHIIT MOVES OF THE MANAGEMENT OF THESE PALM COMPANIES!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE TAKING THIS PLATFORM RIGHT DOWN THE SHIIITTTER!!!!!!!

RE: SD card does not replace missing LOVE
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/25/2004 4:48:44 PM #
Ahem.

Alllllllllllllriiiiiiiiighty then.

[stepping back slowly from the rabid space creature while reaching for my flamethrower]



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
TooMuch @ 11/25/2004 5:21:08 PM #
Gekko is likely a paid troll. His latest defense that he has many Palm OS products means absolutely nothing. Everyone knows that competing ventures buy each others products for review and dissection. Truly. There are those people who can be paid for the # of contacts they make in a day...just like certain sales industries pay by commission and contacts. Gekko is likely making a fine living. The lizard is well known on several Palm OS discussion boards and frequents them all daily. Do a Google search on him for some fun. :)

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Gekko @ 11/25/2004 5:59:09 PM #

TooMuch - You know your business. I know mine. Your business is being an a$$hole. Why don't you post something interesting rather than constantly judge my comments, jackaass. You bring nothing to the table.


RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Zippy @ 11/25/2004 6:33:51 PM #
IS THAT FRIGGIN CLEAR ENOUGH FOR ALL OF THE IMBECILES THAT WANT TO ATTACK MY CRITICISMS??????????????????????????????? I CALL IT THE WAY I SEE IT - AND WHEN I SEE A GOOD QUALITY/VALUE PRODUCT I WILL TELL YOU BUT WHEN I SEE BULLSHIIIT AND GARBAGE I WILL BIITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Funny, when I saw the T5 I saw a good quality/value product and ran to the store to buy. Now I am happy and I actually think it's the best palm product to date. Am I allowed to voice this opinion, BTW?

DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE TO YOU DENSE, DUMB, BLIND, HEAD-BURIED-IN-THE-SAND PALM-CAN-DO-NO-WRONG PALM APOLOGISTS????????????????????

There are alot of things that Palm has done wrong IMO. The T5 is finally a right move and makes up for alot of the wrongs they have done like trying to imitate PPC and pack too much useless crap in PDA.

STOP QUESTIONING MY MOTIVES AND START QUESTIONING THE BULLSHIIT MOVES OF THE MANAGEMENT OF THESE PALM COMPANIES!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE TAKING THIS PLATFORM RIGHT DOWN THE SHIIITTTER!!!!!!!

Man, the T5 was a move in the right direction. As a business user I do not want a unit full of features on it that work badly or that are not really usefull. This is the first unit since the Palm Vx that has really appealed to me. Finally Palm is getting right!

Please note that the above opinions are sticktly my own and I sincerely apologize if I have offended all you freakin' whiners out there.


RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
TooMuch @ 11/25/2004 7:16:32 PM #
Gekko you have lost all control. Seldom do I make my posts of criticism. However, your recent abuse on forums has brought me out to talk rather than read for information. Occasionally I show up to acquire useful information on Palm OS forums to gain insight for purchasing, etc. However, when people see relentless attacks on people and products that don't serve much of anything but selfishness many of us get to a point where "enough is enough". Thus we speak up to remind us that reality still exists. I've been reading this forum for long time and have never encounter such reckless, abusive and non-sense attacking as you have been posting recently. I only hope you will stop it so that we can get on with discussing Palm OS rather having to read you cussing out everyone and P1 all the time.

Now I move on to reading useful threads in hopes that I don't have hear any more useless cussing rants.

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
svrontis @ 11/25/2004 7:21:53 PM #
Zippy, I'm with you. But they need to make these things lighter and thinner - the 'shirt pocket test' is very important.

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
relyons @ 11/25/2004 8:41:20 PM #
Gekko,

It's clear that your faith in the future of PalmOne and PalmSource has been shattered by the NVFS memory issue.

Start evaluating these other handheld and smart phone alternatives to replace your Palm OS handheld.

Microsoft Windows Mobile (Pocket PC)
Microsoft Windows Smartphones
RIM Blackberry handhelds
Danger Sidekick II
Symbian OS smartphones
Apple Newton
TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer
Sharp YO-P20H and Sharp OZ-290H Personal Organizers

Good luck in your search and purchase of a new non-Palm handheld. We will miss your contributions to the Palm community.

P.S. You're the fool if you continue to tirelessly moan and complain about Palm handhelds with all of these alternatives available to you. Will you continue to be the fool?

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
adamsmark @ 11/25/2004 9:50:30 PM #
He's right. I'm a long-time Palm OS user and I find the T5 irritating. I'd like to bump up from the T3 or my Sony TH55, but Palm hasn't a flagship product any more. Coupled with its lack of features, this new problem is extradinary, esp. for $400. Why wouldn't a person look to PPC?

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
ackmondual @ 11/25/2004 10:44:24 PM #
quote
I kinda agree with Gekko on this point. They should've beta tested this device (and the T5) more in depth before launching it. I hate it when developers do the 'release first, then patch' routine.
/q

i figured ppl put up with it b/c they have to. If M$ waited until to release WinXP *and* SP2, there'd be war. But at least M$ alr announced that they're only gonna implememnt the new .Net stuff and graphical interface stuff and NOT the new file system. They're letting us down slowly the way Nicorette does, rather the "T5 patch"

[signature0]the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse[/signature0]
[signature1]My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71.... so ends the "marathon", for now[/signature1]

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Token User @ 11/26/2004 12:23:58 PM #
Gekko - I feel your pain. You are a gadget freak that feels disenfrachised by the decisions of the Pa1mOne management team.
Personally I went Palm Pro -> Visor Deluxe (with a Palm VII for development) -> Clie NX70V. Each of those devices is not an incremental increase in capability, but fairly substantial. I buy for long term not short term. Your buying habits are obviously different, and you demand that every year the new model has significant improvements over the old. Life is full of disappointments - deal with it.

My wife would kill for the 650 with NVRAM. She went from Palm (standard - pre III series) to a Kyocera 7135. When the rechargable batter dies in that combo device, she loses everything and needs to resync. NVRAM would certainly fix that problem.

I just wish GM would hurry up and release the new Hummer H2O with hybrid electric/hydrogen fuel cells that can still travel at 90MPH on the freeway, and cross the country on nothing more than a can of water. The technology is out there ... if I whinge loud enough maybe they might release that model just for me.


~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Rome @ 11/26/2004 11:42:54 PM #
I have been beta-testing Microsoft's software for the last 20 years while handing over a serious amount of my hard-earned cash along the way.

Am I crazy about Microsoft's products? Absolutely NOT.

Was Microsoft the most successful business in the last 25 years? Absolutely YES.

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Picard @ 11/27/2004 11:26:48 AM #
Of course Gekko is a troll. He is also a racist. He has countlessly put down Indian people in the past.

And the moderators do nothing about it, as they're sympathetic of his anti-Palm stance.

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
Gekko @ 11/27/2004 11:29:58 AM #

Ho ho ho. Patel? Ravadam Patel?

I love the Indian people!



RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
dsaroff @ 11/27/2004 10:42:32 PM #
Hi Gekko,

I'll try again.

Please re-read my earlier post, which was very courteous, and actually respond. I didn't call you names. I asked some genuine questions.

If you are unable to answer in the like fashion then I guess the 'troll' comments are accurate. If you can't simply extend courtesy and respond in a mature fashion, so be it. I was simply trying to reasonably understand.

I don't think Palm is perfect, and I DO think the T5 is a HUGE disappointment. So I am not a "head in the sand" biggot. However, your response seems to typify the type against which you rale, rather than support your position as a rationale person.

Well?..

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
ackmondual @ 11/29/2004 8:23:13 AM #
My earlier post, the .net and new graphics interface referred to Longhorn in case it wasn't clear. They won't be implementing the new file system in it however.... M$ mentions maybe as an upgrade for future Longhorn users and even curr win2000 and winXP users

And another part that I do agree with Gekko on (that's x2 in a row so far..... scary) is the subject. Upon trying to run Gamebox Gems on my Z71 did i truly realize that u still need a good amt of free internal RAM to make apps work. Having HUGE SD cards don't make squat of a difference. In the beginning, I couldn't run Warfare Inc. No big deal, i cleared >3.5MB of RAM. Then I couldn't run Gamebox Gems. I needed 6MB for the game, but I settled for the smaller No Audio version requiring only 3.87MB of free internal RAM. Then there's MicroQuad (hi-res version), and that now requires 4.75MB. The final blow for me was a freeware game called Rat Olympics. That game is the single largest .prc file i've seen: 4.85MB. For a P1 user, they'll need up to 12MB of free RAM just to run that monster.

Not every1 will be affected on their tr650 in the same way i've been affected w/my Z71 in working around w/having lower free internal RAM, but there will still be a handful of ppl cursing P1 for cheating them on memory. Sure, u can put alot of stuff on a 128MB card, but some apps still need to be on internal RAM out of necessity or speed issues.

RE: SD Card Does Not Replace Missing System RAM
mikecane @ 12/1/2004 8:35:27 AM #
>>>Of course Gekko is a troll. He is also a racist. He has countlessly put down Indian people in the past.

Hey, creep. YOU are the racist. Anytime someone you assume to be non-Indian mentions India *at all* you label him a "racist." What's the matter, can't stand having your inferiority complex?

Enough bull. Here's the REAL reason for Palm's nightmares:

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/25/2004 1:47:11 PM #
PalmOS 6 is still not ready. STILL NOT READY! Two years ago when Palm was planning the 2004 lineup, PalmOS 6 was expected to be part of the mix. Multithreading, flexible memory management and scalability were a given.

Along comes 2003 and by December, PalmSource barely came up with a crude working model of PalmOS 6.

pa1mOne: "When will Cobalt really be ready? We need it for the new Tungstens and Treo."

PalmSource: "Very soon."

pa1mOne: "When?"

PalmSource: "We don't know."

pa1mOne: "WTF!!!!! F*** YOU, YOU STUPID LITTLE M************ C**********!!!!"

PalmSource: "Sorry."

pa1mOne: "Fine, then hack PalmOS 5 so we can use it in the new Tungstens and Treo."

PalmSource: "Ummm... we're kinda busy with PalmOS 6 right now. But we'll put Little Jimmy, (the new intern we just hired straight out of high school) right on the job next week!

pa1mOne: Thanks. For nothing.


---------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to know who's hurting pa1mOne, it's PalmSource and those pie-in-the-sky Be engineers they hired. Someone forgot to teach those yokels the KISS principle.
---------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7308#100488

If Palm was smart, they'd "borrow" Tapwave's version of PalmOS, dump NAND Flash/NVFS and concentrate on putting out high quality hardware that gives good value for the money. Their current flying-by-the-seat-of-their-pants, street hustling ($400 for a Tungsten E + a NAND Flash chip!!!) "strategy" is taking them along the same road once travelled by Netscape, WordPerfect and Mac.

Palm, it's time for a paradigm shift™

;-O



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Enough bull. Here's the REAL reason for Palm's nightmares:
TooMuch @ 11/25/2004 5:32:03 PM #
"..."strategy" is taking them along the same road once travelled by Netscape, WordPerfect and Mac."

Mac is doing just fine right now...debt free company with billions in the bank and growing again. Ask the share holders if you are questioning the Mac company (Apple). (Save me the irrelavant 1980's and 1990's seminar on Apple.)

RE: Enough bull. Here's the REAL reason for Palm's nightmares:
Gekko @ 11/25/2004 5:55:09 PM #

The only reason Apple is doing well today is because all of the incompetents were forced out by Jobs and these rejects are now all at Palm!!!

http://www.macworld.com/news/2003/09/12/appleemployee/index.php



RE: Enough bull. Here's the REAL reason for Palm's nightmare
Foo Fighter @ 11/25/2004 7:09:36 PM #
>> "Mac is doing just fine right now"

Umm...no. Apple is doing fine, yes. More than fine, they're booming. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the Mac side of the business, which continues to slide into obscurity.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Enough bull. Here's the REAL reason for Palm's nightmares:
TooMuch @ 11/25/2004 7:39:04 PM #
I agree that Apple is finding much of its success beyond Mac these days. But Mac is not on the decline either. I just don't see it in parallel with Netscape and Word Perfect at this time.

Concerning Apple's success beyond Mac, I hope is finds way to push the PDA/smartphone world of P1. I don't know much about Apple's business with P1 with Apple store retailing of P1 products. However, I do hope that they bring increased innovation, integration or comptetion to move the Palm OS forward, if not P1 itself. I believe that Macintosh can still leverage that in ways that Netscape and Word Perfect cannot.

RE: Enough bull. Here's the REAL reason for Palm's nightmare
technical1 @ 11/26/2004 1:34:45 AM #
OK folks, time for a reality check.

I just noticed someone mourning the loss of his HandEra 330 on a beta test board where I belong. Yes, he is still using it, as was I until about a yr ago & I only changed b/c I got a really good deal on a T3.

The reason for this loyalty to a dead company's product?

Solid, useable features. Consider the following that are STILL unique among Palm PDA's : dual power capability, w/user removeable rechargeable batteries. Dual slots for CF & SD cards. The screen is quite good if only qvga & b&w. Resetable w/stylus in the back rather than having to inconventiently unscrew the stylus to be able to do a reset. How's about one of the first voice recorders? (I know T3 does it also, w/stylus as well)

Then the stability of the product...

This was new over 5 yrs ago, so why hasn't any other pda gone for dual power & palm for user changeable, rechargeable batteries. Don't they think people would buy batteries? Hmmm I would!

Then the loss of the vibrate AND LED alerts ?! Business & power users want & need these. What about the loss of the voice recorder? The T5 is supposed to be the flagship product; well in the eyes of many, the ship has sunk!

P1 is not responsive because they are the only palm OS pda company & you can't even get the phone number of a live person to report your problems which have been well documented all over Palm oriented forums - let's keep in mind the following issues that Palm has been not been responsive enough about: digitizer drift, lost slider screws (I like slider, but others don't), battery issues, bad screen replacements, tech support that requires you to visit India just so you can begin to understand the T. Sup. people's accents. Palms w/battery or screw problems have been swapped out for refurbed models, losing customers their good screens for the sake of a replacement screw that would cost a penny at best if they did the right thing w/the screw problem?

Set Flame = off

Eli



Using Tungsten T3, Lexar x32 512Mb SD card, ZLauncher 5.0, Jack Flash / Jack Sprat, MessagEase STamp 4 T3, PXA Clocker Pro, Datebk5, SkinDIA, SuperNames, Today,& more & loving it!

RE: Enough bull. Here's the REAL reason for Palm's nightmares:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/30/2004 11:08:53 PM #
Mac is doing just fine right now...debt free company with billions in the bank and growing again. Ask the share holders if you are questioning the Mac company (Apple). (Save me the irrelavant 1980's and 1990's seminar on Apple.)

Mac is dead. Apple is doing ok because they got lucky with the iPod and have suckered millions into buying a fashion statement. Apple exists because Microsoft wanted them around. Otherwise they would have joined Netscape, WordPerfect, etc in the morgue. Apple Cultists never fail to amaze with their fanatical level of devotion.

Wake up, people! Apple's business plan is to sell overpriced crap with nice industrial design to a blindly devoted flock of Apple Cult members. Line up and bend over while Steve Jobs first fleeces and then fcuks you.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Enough bull. Here's the REAL reason for Palm's nightmares:
mikecane @ 12/1/2004 8:30:42 AM #
I gave up on Mac after my LC III. I finally caught on to the fact that it should be *Steve Jobs* going around looking like a jerk at PC Expo, et al, asking everyone, "Is there a Mac version of this?"

But now I'm beginning to have the same question form in my mind about palmtop software: "Is there a PalmOS version of this?"

Not a good sign...

Flash Memory - Bad Idea!

gmigueis @ 11/25/2004 3:11:27 PM #
I've heard that each small "cell" on these Flash Memory chips that PalmOne's using on T|T5 and Treo650 can only be modified about 100,000 times or so...
I recently saw someone using a "very old" Palm - probably five or six years old! Well, if you use the same Flash Memory cell 45 times a day your T|T5 or Treo won't last that long!
I hope I have the money to upgrade to the latest Palm in the years to come, but I would also like the idea that my old devices are still working... And I might not have the money... And I might just stare at someone using his/her old T|T3 while my T|T5 is gone... Even with smart flash cell memory management - gosh! My Commodore Amiga and my Sinclair ZX Spectrum still work!
Is it just me or this doesn't really feel much Zen?

RE: Flash Memory - Bad Idea!
mousky @ 11/25/2004 4:03:46 PM #
Where did you hear this? Is this another T5/Treo650 scandal in waiting? (BTW, I'm being sarcastic). This whole Flash Memory thing has been blown out of proportion. It only effects those users migrating from previous Palm PDAs to the T5 or Treo650. Even palmOne acknowledges that those people represent a small fraction of T5/Treo650 users. Typical over reaction from the minorty group of hardcore but "highly vocal and highly active in palm forums" users.
RE: Flash Memory - Bad Idea!
skeezix @ 11/25/2004 4:05:00 PM #
Not really a problem ;)

Chances are very low you'd be *writing* to the same cell 45 times a day; reading isn't a problem, just writing.

Even if you did update the same cell 45 times a day.. 100,000/45 == 2222 days, which is still abotu 6 years.

Factor in the real number of times you'd update a single cell..

jeff

The Shadow knows!

RE: Flash Memory - Bad Idea!
Calroth @ 11/25/2004 5:19:18 PM #
I think that in the future, people will see flash memory as an incredibly good idea and can't imagine living without it.

Doubt this? Reply to this comment in the year 2008 with your genuine feelings at the time, and we'll see.

It's like all sorts of other new technologies. Remember going from AAA batteries to built-in rechargable batteries? There were teething problems. People lost data. People swore at them. But today, who'd go back to one of those devices?

RE: Flash Memory - Bad Idea!
gmigueis @ 11/25/2004 5:30:52 PM #
I do like the idea of Flash Memory! I even like the T|T5 - and I have a T|T3! Sure, the T|T3 has vib alarms, but I never used them - same with the voice recorder (but personally I do find many uses to this last one - it just hasn't happened 'til today). The LED is useful, but I can live without it (I do with my T|E). The about 10MB database size limited by dynamic heap is OK too and it should be easy for most apps to get around this limitation IF needed.
With the T|T5 we got the 160MB storage space to use with the WiFi card and a faster processor - I'm wondering if Kinoma Player 3 takes advantage of the PXA270 MMX instructions :) or if we'll see any T|T5 optimized games...
Flash has also the advantage of saving battery, etc.
I'm more than happy with OS 5 (but I would like to get an OS 6 device, of course...)!

Still I'm yet to make my mind in what concerns to buying the T|T5 because of Flash memory lifetime! I know 6 or 10 years is a lot of time for a PDA, but I'd like to see it working when it's a relic (insert joke here ;).
I have a Compact Flash card with a bad sector or cell or something that no format can solve - it's unusable...

RE: Flash Memory - Bad Idea!
vesther @ 11/25/2004 9:54:41 PM #
The good part about NVFS is that say if I had to remove several Alkaline Batteries out of the handheld and replace them, then I risk losing the information on the handheld once I use fresh new batteries. That's the drudgery of having Volatile RAM. The good news is that NVFS will help retain your handheld's information in the event that you have to remove batteries from your handheld, so on.

The only thing I hate about NVFS is that of this "Space Ole Blarg" issue that's been haunting me ever since--A Tungsten C would only take about 87K Space for Sketcher. Tungsten T5 and Treo 650 takes about 154K of space!!!

I'm glad that palmOne is taking some time to address these efficiency problems for their next ROM Update, but the most important part that I want out of the next TT5 update is better, more unconditional Third-Party Application Compatibility.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

RE: Flash Memory - Bad Idea!
bcombee @ 11/26/2004 1:02:44 AM #
A bit about the idea that Flash memory will wear out. The DiskOnChip flash systems used on the Treo 650 and Tungsten T5 have a very long life:

1) the controller allocates flash blocks using a wear levelling algorithm, so when a block is rewritten, it's not actually that block of memory that's written, but the free block that's had the least use, with the old block reallocated to the free list.

2) there are error-correcting bits allocated throughout the flash, so when a block stops being modifyable, it is marked as bad and not used again, usually well before any data in that block has become corrupt.

3) this wear-levelling doesn't just apply to data that's changed. To keep the erase-counts roughly constant across the Flash part, occasionally static data will be moved to a new block, allowing the block it was in to join the free-block pool. It's like rotating the tires of the memory system.

--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog

RE: Flash Memory - Bad Idea!
Wolfgard @ 11/26/2004 9:50:41 AM #
I don't see why the flash memory is giving P1 so much trouble. Nokia has been using flash memory for a long time on its smartphones! I hope they solve it soon, maybe then they'll bring back replacable batteries on their PDAs.

pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55
RE: Flash Memory - Bad Idea!
ben_TE @ 11/27/2004 7:51:57 AM #
It shouldn't be too much of an issue if palm have implemented it well. Software on the Palm doesn't access the Flash directly, it uses a smaller cache of standard Palm memory in between the program and the Flash.

When a program locks a record in a database it is transferred into the cache and modified there. By only writing back to the flash either when the cache fills up or is explicitly flushed the number of actual writes can be minimised.

I'm not sure how these devices manage the cache when the battery is removed - if you pulled the battery before some data was written back to Flash, you could end up with old data left in storage. Unless you have to press a button to remove the battery or something?

I see the same negative ones post here too

newtonjack @ 11/25/2004 6:43:47 PM #
Man these guys that post negative comments about Palmone on several different sites 24/7, whats up with that?



RE: I see the same negative ones post here too
Zippy @ 11/25/2004 6:57:05 PM #
Some of these dudes are downright Nuts! They spew out their negativity all over the place in all the user groups. They should chill out and relax. So what if Palm dies or PPC? It's just a PDA: just a little tool. Not the end of the world. So much passion and energy expended over such a little insignificant thing, in the grand scheme of things. This Geekko dude appears to be insane! Although, I could be wrong about that, of course, it's just my opinion and only mine, I'm sure.

Man some of you guys should use some of that nervous energy for some really good causes like: world peace, environmental conservation etc...

RE: I see the same negative ones post here too
T. @ 11/25/2004 8:23:38 PM #
The problem is they make the site almost unusable. I am wondering whether the admin should be trying to solve this problem, whether he can and if he can, why isn't he. Trying to wade through all the useless stuff to find out technical information is a very difficult process.

On the other side of the coin, even some of the ranters provide some valuable insight if you have the patience to look past the childish way it is presented. Unfortunately it does wear thin.

RE: I see the same negative ones post here too
Kesh @ 11/25/2004 10:16:49 PM #
Personally, I'd rather have all the Comments section done away with, and just post a new thread in the Forums when a new article goes up. That way, those of us who only want to read the news can do just that, without having all the crap load on the same page.

Why not use YAFFS (Yet Another Flash Filing System)?!

gfunkmagic @ 11/25/2004 11:24:16 PM #
http://www.aleph1.co.uk/yaffs/

http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9680239525.html

"YAFFS is the only file system, under any operating system, that has been designed specifically for use with NAND flash. YAFFS is thus designed to work within the constraints of, and exploit the features of, NAND flash to maximize performance. YAFFS uses journaling, error correction, and verification techniques tuned to the way NAND typically fails to enhance robustness. The result is a file system that exploits low-cost NAND chips and is both fast and robust."


Any geniouses out there wanna comment on this?


I support http://Tapland.com/

--------------------
GNM

RE: Why not use YAFFS (Yet Another Flash Filing System)?!
asiayeah @ 11/26/2004 12:51:36 AM #
I think PalmOne must be looking at something similar for the ROM update they have promised. They shouldn't be using a 512 byte block-based file system, especially when Palm OS is famous for using fewer memory than other OS competitors.

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.
RE: Why not use YAFFS (Yet Another Flash Filing System)?!
bcombee @ 11/26/2004 1:11:27 AM #
YAFFS is a good idea, but most of the ideas used in this implementation are already part of the core DiskOnChip Flash drivers used to talk to the chips on the Treo 650/Tungsten T5. There may be a small advantage to using their software, but it would taken longer to implement, and it wouldn't have solved the fundamental problem of database access within the files on the file system.

--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog
RE: Why not use YAFFS (Yet Another Flash Filing System)?!
palmato @ 11/26/2004 10:04:46 AM #
And BTW it would be an m-systems responsibility rather that palm1 or palmsource.

I wonder whether the record size issue it's solvable. Meaning if there's a way to have records not bounded by the (flash) block.

In fact if two or more records could coexist on a single block, it becomes quite expensive to increase or decrease the record size, since the whole database must be readjusted and a large number of data must be shifted backward or forward.
If the whole database is in the temporary ram the overhead would be minimal but its size would be limited by the ram available. Also committing the whole thing to flash would probably take some time.
On the other hand if the record is bounded the the block then it's much faster because changes affect that record only and new blocks can be chained (or removed from the chain) without much overhead.

So it appears to me that the only solution might be to reduce the block size, for instance to 128. But of course it would not really fix things.
Any ideas?

RE: Why not use YAFFS (Yet Another Flash Filing System)?!
Patrick @ 11/27/2004 11:27:38 PM #
If a block size change is possible, and they are able to reduce it to a suitably small number, like maybe 64, then the amount of wastage will not be zero but my guess is that it will not be anywhere near the 30% we're seeing now. If the wastage gets down to say, 10%, then that is a reasonable tradeoff for the added value of non-volatile memory, IMO.

Of course, it would be a much easier tradeoff to stomach had the RAM been 64 MB to begin with.


NVFS: Slow, Buggy, Inefficient.

Gekko @ 11/26/2004 9:06:16 AM #

Next.



RE: NVFS: Slow, Buggy, Inefficient.
mikecane @ 11/26/2004 2:11:19 PM #
Yeah. What he said.

RE: NVFS: Slow, Buggy, Inefficient.
superdork @ 12/1/2004 1:34:00 AM #
OH CRUDE!! Palm is in deep doo doo, when Mike is agreeing with Gecko! :)

SD card won't help me

dnicolaou @ 11/26/2004 10:34:15 AM #
Great idea, the SD card. Or it would be, if my SD slot wasn't DEAD RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. Now I have a choice: return the thing and risk the dead pixels everyone's griping about, or live with a dead SD slot. I guess it's pretty clear I have to do the former, but I'm not very comfortable that it'll go well. At least they promised that it'd be a new unit, not a refurb, and will send it out with a free return shipping label. Downside: they won't ship it for "1-2 weeks."

Bollocks!

mikecane @ 11/26/2004 2:10:06 PM #
They come out with all guns blazing to admit and fix this issue.

Still unresolved: **32K** Memos and **1K** Clipboard!

Take care of *this* first!

RE: Bollocks!
Token User @ 11/27/2004 11:16:05 PM #
Yeah. What he said :)

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~
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