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    Comments on: Editorial: We, the SuckersMike Cane is back on his Palm OS soapbox with with one of his first articles for PalmInfocenter in some time. Mike has been covertly using and abusing PDA's running all sorts of operating systems and brings us his latest thoughts and opinions on the mobile industry. -Ryan
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The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PIC is not responsible for them in any way. login or register for free in order to post comments.  RE: 2 in 1?
No. For example, you will be able to run, say, an app called Palm Calendar. WinMob skin but everything else is Zen of Palm like (unlike the Catastrophe of WinMob!). Palm Calendar (and I do hope they call it that!) would be an alterantive 3rd-party program to use, just like Pocket Informant is right now on PPC. RE: 2 in 1?
Hey Mike, It is amazing what a turmoil you've raised while having not the foggiest idea on what an operating system is. Palm Source very probably could port their higher level APIs to Windows CE, if they wanted and wanted to pay the price. Windows CE is an embedded kernel over which you can build a GUI if you want -- but you can use it without a GUI, like the Sega Dreamcast did. Also, there is not just one GUI that could run over WinCE: Microsoft had its first go at handheld PCs with a pretty unsophisticated GUI. Then it came up with progressively better editions of PocketPC. But the underlying kernel to PocketPC is Windows CE. Finally, there is a lot more to a user environment than a kernel and a GUI. There are many more useful services that the operating system can provide: printing, synchronization, authentication, encryption, messaging, 3D, multimedia, and many more things nobody has even though up yet. If you want to call all that *just a skin*, then you are either unbelievably intelligent or plainly oblivious to your own ignorance. Palm Source could port their high-level user environment to the CE infrastructure just the same as they are going to do over Linux, but what would they gain from that? It is NOT THE SAME as having all your apps running under PocketPC. They could also port their apps to PocketPC, but that would be a totally separate exercise, only equally pointless. What they want from Linux is a sophisticated, powerful, well suported kernel they don't have to pay to maintain. For no money they get multitasking, threading, TCP/IP, real time, drivers for all kind of USB devices, Bluetooth, Wifi,compiler technology, several programming languages .... This amounts to BILLIONS of man-hours of work. A kernel is a VERY sophisticated piece of work, and it takes a titanic effort to keep it up with the times. Microsoft sort of manages with XP and CE (they had to drop W95, though), but there is no denying they've got plenty of dough and no denying that they could do a lot better too. Linux is receiving inputs from everywhere, as it runs in everything from Wifi access points to car navigation systems, industrial control systems, cellphones, handheld, desktop and mainframe computers, DVD players, whatever. RE: 2 in 1?
(sorry, I forgot my end line) > Linux is receiving inputs from everywhere, as it runs in > everything from Wifi access points to car navigation systems, > industrial control systems, cellphones, handheld, desktop and > mainframe computers, DVD players, whatever. PalmSource can now freely profit from all that effort while, at the same time, adding their own polish to the kernel for everybody else to enjoy. This is what makes Linux ever more difficult to beat. But then, of course, why would you want to beat it? RE: 2 in 1?
Lobotomic, you make so much sense. The only question is why Palmsource waited so long, and if using a Linux GUI would actually benefit the Palm GUI and user experience in any way. The POS6 is apparently also very capable under the skin, but the e.g. multitasking that it exposes to the user is still very limited. As has been said before, Palm has had 3 kernels before. They do not seem to have made much difference from the user POV, accept that Palms have become progressively more unstable. Maybe the Linux kernel can fix this, and maybe it wont... Surur RE: 2 in 1?
My God! >>>What they want from Linux is a sophisticated, powerful, well suported kernel they don't have to pay to maintain. For no money they get multitasking, threading, TCP/IP, real time, drivers for all kind of USB devices, Bluetooth, Wifi,compiler technology, several programming languages .... This amounts to BILLIONS of man-hours of work. So, WTF are they *BUYING* CMS if all this stuff is allegedly "free"? And if you don't think they've effectively ditched Cobalt and made it a skin, just keep watching. You'll eventually be convinced. RE: 2 in 1?
>>So, WTF are they *BUYING* CMS if all this stuff is allegedly "free"? And if you don't think they've effectively ditched Cobalt and made it a skin, just keep watching. You'll eventually be convinced. They are buying CMS because CMS has Linux developers and already has an OS based on linux. Also - CMS has clients - they provide the OS / system software for a number of phone manufacturers and make there own devices as well (apparently - not sure what). Mike - this is not just 'skinning' linux. What people think of presently as 'Cobolt' is really the Protein APIs (what all 3rd party developers would/will use to write code for Cobolt) + the underlying Cobolt kernal (developers don't ussually 'touch' this directly with their code). What PalmSource is doing is replacing the Cobolt kernal with the linux kernal - BUT the Protein APIs are all still there (ie - what people previously thought of as the 'Cobolt APIs'). You will not be able to run most Linux apps unchanged - you will have to re-write parts of the apps that deal with the interface at the very least. Conversly - people learning to dev for Cobolt (i.e. people learning / writting code using the Protien APIs) will be able to use the exact same code here (but recompiled for the new kernal). But PalmSource's Protein API isn't just the GUI - these APIs handle most things (as lobotomic pointed out): communications, graphics, security/encryption, database operations, etc. RE: 2 in 1?
>>"So, WTF are they *BUYING* CMS if all this stuff is allegedly "free"?"<< They are buying a ready made kernel for mobile devices that will require little effort on thier part to polish up. This in itself is no big deal, since it is GPL'd, but they are also acquiring the talent that developed that kernel and knows it inside and out. This is no small detail, as well as the fact that they just got a boatload of qualified Linux coders/developers in the deal too, so the search, hiring, and training costs are eliminated for the most part. Again, no small detail. It costs enormous amounts of money, even in China, to find, interview, hire and train qualified people for any job. Employee turnover/acquisition costs companies large amounts of money each year. >>"And if you don't think they've effectively ditched Cobalt and made it a skin, just keep watching. You'll eventually be convinced."<< I truly hope you are wrong on this (no offense, Mike). You present a clear, logical thought process, but it seems based on incomplete understanding and/or information (again, no offense intended). As others have pointed out, there's a lot more to it than just "skinning" Linux, and the upshot is that the PalmOS has the potential to become exponentially more capable, robust, and flexible almost overnight, if PalmSource/CMS play their cards right and don't totally bugger it, and that, my friend is the wild card here. Will PalmSource do it right? Or will we be "Cobalted" again? Only time will tell. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. RE: 2 in 1?
I hope they won't port to WinCE...
OS/2 runs Windows --> dead 
 Talk about putting it on the lineRhinoSteve @ 12/10/2004 1:52:35 PM #
Well Mike, we have been going back and forth for a long time. This is either the biggest piece of disinformation I have seen in a long time or an honest view. First you say PPC sucks and then the OS doesn't matter. I think perception is the big thing. One is the view of the customer "Is it cute and does it do what I want?" Second is the engineer "What OS and API will me code work with?" and then there is the Sewing circle PalmInfoCenter member "Palm Sucks! Nagel Sucks! If both don't suck then something else will!" April PalmSource will tell the truth. My take is this is your Grinch article to spoil the PalmSource Christmas party next week since you didn't get invited this time. RE: Talk about putting it on the line
Ha. Some funny stuff there. No disinfo here -- when I have spread any? (*Intentionally*, that is.) Well, it could spoil palmOne sales, but so what? Let them have to *earn* their customers again. That said, I am *not* buying a WinMob device. I don't think it's time for another look until WinMob 2005 is released (and even then, NOT as an early buyer!). RE: Talk about putting it on the line
No disinformation? Let's see: Quote 1: "PalmSource apparently believes it has found the cheapest, smallest, and fastest variant of Linux and will make Cobalt and its associated apps a skin" No, PalmSource is making a Linux kernel an alternative to the proprietary kernel. The application-facing PalmOS layer remains the same, so applications are unaffected. All that is changed is the backend of the PalmOS layer. Quote 2:" Porting the widely-known PalmOS apps to other platforms" Why would they want to do this? And how does changing the kernel have any effect on the portability of the apps, when they have stated that current m68K apps will run on the new Linux/PalmOS. Quote 3:"You just read it above: the operating system no longer matters to them." The operating system clearly does matter - they are porting it across to Linux. What clearly doesn't matter is the kernel. Quote 4:"They will port the core PalmOS apps to Windows Mobile." How does the fact that PalmSource appears to be going to great lengths to make the new Linux-based system backwards-compatible mean that PalmSource is going to port its limited-functionality apps, which are a minor part of its product, to a competitor's platform? I think the problem is that you have confused applications, operating systems and kernels. I'm not quite sure how someone who could make mistakes like that gets to post editorials on a major palm news site. RE: Talk about putting it on the line
:) its only raising a turmoil if you actually try to listen to what he has to say. over the years; i've seen mikecane post the most amount of crap anyone in the handheld community can post to forums - and, he hasn't got any clue about what he is talking about.. its always a laugh to see his "predictions". i dont know why ryan posts this stuff; it is very degrading to the site - stuff like this kept inside the forums, or, mike should host his own site for posting his opinions. i'm sure mike cane is a nice guy in real life; ryan got it right in the going back "story" he posted:
but, we all need to sit back and realise - mike is just a USER of handhelds; any predictions he makes about the future/hardware really have no justification. he's wrong about cobalt, he's wrong about the linux migration.. why? because he doesn't understand how the tech industry functions. i got an email from two palmsource people asking me for my opinion about the announcement of the linux kernel dicussions - i will post my reply here: deep down, it should not change the user experience (the classic KISS concept) - but, using a stronger underlying kernel for task handling, data management is a great move. the linux kernel is very stable; and, configurable. it used my main concern would be binary compatability with 68k and keep in mind the "key" point - it wont change the user experience with the device; a kernel is an underlying component of the device - it doesn't matter if its running garnet, cobalt or linux. it may matter to developers (new API's etc), but since mike cane isn't a developer - i dont see any points he makes about these things valid. if palmsource does it right - it wont be any different at all between the devices. RE: Talk about putting it on the line
Ah, of course ardiri comes out of the woodwork. And it's fun to click on the new names who are now posting here. I see some joined specifically to comment on *this* piece (which I called "Opinion" and Ryan posted as "Editorial" -- and I did ask him to switch it back!) -- for you newcomers, why haven't you been here before? Raised some hackles, or is it only now that you have something to grace us with your presence. I stand by what I said. All of you will see soon enough. RE: Talk about putting it on the line
mike, you can mock the people commenting, but the basic point remains: you haven't answered any of their points. You have a PalmSource developer saying you haven't understood what PalmSource is doing. You haven't cleared up the confusion between operating system and kernel in the article. You haven't commented on the fact that this will be the fourth kernel for PalmOS, and the previous changes didn't herald a change in Palm[Source|One]'s porting policy. All you have said is "just wait and see" without clearing up any of the confusion or misinformation in the article. >So, WTF are they *BUYING* CMS if all this stuff is allegedly This is the funniest quote which most clearly shows your lack of understanding. What Linux provides for free is a huge amount: the basic stuff is all there and working. That's hundreds of thousands of developer-hours of work for free. However, it will need tweaking for the Palm. New device drivers, execute-in-place (probably), testing, porting PalmOS - these will all take time and expertise. That's presumably why they have bought CMS, as they appear to bring expertise on Linux handheld devices to the table. Rantings, Ravings, Drivel, Sex, Lies and Videotape.The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 6:05:00 PM #
Mike Cane: You obviously have ABSOLUTELY no technical computer knowledge, whatsoever. You don't appear to know much about hardware or software either. It is inappropriate for you to be posting ARTICLES full of confused misinformation at Palminfocenter. Newbies can blow off your rabid comments, but when they see an article by you they may mistakenly feel you have some credibility. You have none. The only function I see your article serving is the discussion it created, interestingly drawing panicked PalmSource developers/supporters out ouf the woodwork in an effort to defend their (now-shaky) position. PalmSource s c r e w e d up in many ways, but you're incapable of understanding exactly how. Keep posting Mike. Every word you type underscores your ignorance. I'd suggest you spend a couple days reading some basic computer books and maybe Gavn Maxwell's Palm programming book before you end up putting your foot even further (completely?) into your mouth. Please don't take this as an insult, Mike. It's honest advice. TVoR ****************************************************************** RE: Talk about putting it on the line
of course i do. hell, i'm even sending this message from a singapore airline lounge. i just had to come back and see how you would react. where is the fun it in any other way? as for your points, you need to sometimes sit back and really try to understand what is going on before you go mouthing off what you think is right etc etc.. its very unprofessional, and - every time you post; you just make yourself look more and more stupid. i would definately welcome your thoughts and opinions if you put the right amount of time to justify all your thoughts and opinions rather than just blant on about them. like, what does palmsource using linux mean to the user? pretty much nothing. are you really in a position to comment on this - seeing, you are just a user of palmos hardware? Aaron Ardiri: Damning with faint praise?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 1:45:54 PM #
i got an email from two palmsource people asking me for my opinion about the announcement of the linux kernel dicussions - i will post my reply here: deep down, it should not change the user experience the linux kernel is very stable; and, configurable. it used my main concern would be binary compatability with 68k and
Aaron, I believe everyone seems to be glossing over how much work needs to be done to create PalmLinux and whether or not PalmSource has the engineers sk!LL3d enough to get the job done. Theory is great, but the Devil is in the details. And as you're only too well aware, Palm/PalmSource doesn't exactly have a good history re: attention to details. The second issue is TIME. Plan B (9?) from Outer Mongolia can't even start in full swing for a few months until the purchase of the Chinese Cavalry is complete. If the kernel is GPLed, maybe PalmSource can start playing around with it now, but I doubt they currently have more than a handful of engineers qualified to properly extend a true Linux kernel. If that's the case, PalmSource is essentially putting their fate in the hands of a startup company, China MobileSoft Limited. I don't see this as A Good Thing. This all sounds like a panicked Coach Nagel calling for a "Hail Mary" pass on the last play of the game. It appears that either no one at Palm is responsible for corporate strategy/competitive planning or they don't know what the he11 they're doing. Just as many diehard Palm users have left the platform in disgust in recent months, I think a lot of developers are now going to start looking at porting their skillsets to other platforms. Looks like you made a wise choice when you stopped focusing on PalmOS a few years ago. Was that because you realized chaos was about to descend on PalmOS? Try not to get arrested in Singapore. ;-) ****************************************************************** RE: Talk about putting it on the linekillah fury @ 12/12/2004 2:36:30 PM #
I wish PalmInfoCenter would NOT post articles written by Mike Cane who plainly does not know anything about the tech industry at all. This piece he has written makes little sense and he contradicts himself; and still hasn't answered the questions put to him in response to this mindless drivel. I'd much rather see editorial written by someone with a greater knowledge of the industry, the hardware and the Palm OS operating system, such as Aaron Ardiri. RE: Talk about putting it on the line
I am a software developer as well. Let me chime in a "me too" here -- I find Mike Cane's "article" full of disinformation, errornous assumptions, and crazy theories presented as hard facts. If I read another article posted here by him it will be my last visit. RE: Talk about putting it on the line
I agree with most of the above, and I also think that it is disgrace to the normally great PIC for them to post stories from a person who is so often blatantly unprofessional, immature, and disrespectful in his conduct on said site. Peace Out Alan RE: Talk about putting it on the line
Most of the things explained above are far beyond my understanding, but there is one thing I can put my two cents on: Ryan should manage this site in a far more serious way. Any usual reader knows how disrispectful (and childish if I may add) are some of Mike Cane's posts. Allowing those posts is one thing, but posting his opinion as an editorial? That is far beyond what I expect from the palm site where I have seen some of Palm top executives posting! Ryan, it does not matter if Mike is a very good friend of yours, Palminfocenter has grown a lot so you must take good care of it to keep it that way. RE: Talk about putting it on the line
There just is no quality of Palminfocenter anymore. I criticize Mike Cane, and the wonderful creator of this website Mr. Ryan of San Diego, California ERASES my message. Especially when I pointed out that Palm OS has had 3 kernels before this new Linux one, and because Mike is not a PDA expert No wonder Ed Hardy ran away to Brighthand! I suppose Brighthand will be our only source for PDA information now. At least their servers can handle a messageboard PIC -----> Censorship of messages, promoting non-PDA experts opinions, tolerating dimwitted responses from Mike and Gekko (AKA Ska) RE: Talk about putting it on the line
"Gekko AKA ska" is one of the most ludicrous ideas I've ever seen in a news comments post. Someone else on the temporarily defunct forums (maybe the same person) also accused him of being a PPC troll. Yet if you READ his posts you will find there are few here more passionate about Palm OS than Gekko. If he sounds agro at times, it's probably just through frustration at the changes (or lack of changes) at Palm. I know I feel the same way. They won't even give me a simple driver for my mobile phone. Picard, you say in other posts on this news item that PIC should be boycotted. Your choice, man... do it. Lead the way. RE: Talk about putting it on the line
You are right buddy. I let my quality control staff go, budget cutbacks, fact of life just look at what a great job NASA did by letting go of that sean o guy RE: Talk about putting it on the lineStrider_mt2k @ 12/14/2004 8:39:02 AM #
Ryan, Don't look at it that way.
And did! Hang in there buddy. RE: Talk about putting it on the lineRhinoSteve @ 12/14/2004 12:01:00 PM #
Well Mike, you put it on the line. The verdict -- you lose! I don't value your opinon anymore. My advise is to publish a retraction of this article to salvage your reputation and get new pen name. Editorial: The Last Laugh!
(The following is an "editorial" by sometimes PIC reader twrock. Although twrock has no credentials whatsoever to be writing such drivel, he's going to do so anyway in the outside chance he might somehow end up looking like he actually knew something. And since wild speculation without any proper basis is in fashion at the moment, he thought he'd give his hand a shot at it.)
Editorial: The Last Laugh! (copyright twrock, 2006) A funny thing is going to happen four to six months from now: Mike Cane is going to have the last laugh. I know some of you will find this hard to believe, but it is true. The reason will not matter; the only important part for you to know is that four to six months from now Mike is going to have a whopper of an "I-told-you-so." I'm telling you, it's going to happen. Trust me. I know things. Recently Mike Cane got some "insider" information from someone about something that will happen in the next "4-6 months." To protect my sources, I can't tell you what it was, but trust me, it was a juicy tidbit. It was just the kind of information that could make a guy look really smart if he could "predict" it would happen four to six months prior. Unfortunately, he didn't know what to make of it and certainly didn't know why it was going to happen. So he started to develop a theory to answer those questions. But since he didn't have a sufficient understanding of the systems involved (particularly OS's), his theory turned out to be baseless. But that only mattered because there are enough people who did have that understanding and pointed out the flaws in Mike's theory. But have no fear. Four to six month from now he will be vindicated, and those of you who mocked him are going to have to eat crow. At the moment, Mike looks like he doesn't have a clue. BUT, he will have the last laugh four to six months from now when his "conclusions" actually come true. Oh to be sure, someone will try to point out that his conclusions were a non sequitur, but it will be too late. Mike will be basking in his glory, having the last laugh. (That's my line, and I'm sticking to it. Don't even think of trying to convince me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I do, and you'll see... four to six months from now.)
Great! No guilt in switching!
At last, I can get my O2 XDAIIs (when I get the cash) without feeling guilty about ditching palmOS. Hello WinMob, goodbye POS. And I doubt I'll be sticking with the 'new' POS, I've never been a fanboy of Linux anyway. Plus, we'll never know how 'stable' the Linux kernel will be until it comes out. Who knows, it might be less stable compared to WinMob when multitasking processes! I'd rather take my chances on a proven OS than an unproven one. pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55 & Handera 330 RE: Great! No guilt in switching!
You are not taking this article seriously!??!?! Just read the other comments!!! Mike Cane doesn't know what he is talking about. Its embarassing really - he doesnt know what a kernal is or what they are doing here! Why does this change anything for you? To users - this will still be palm OS (if you were looking forward to Cobolt, then all of features in Cobolt will still be in this). RE: Great! No guilt in switching!
>>"I'd rather take my chances on a proven OS than an unproven one."<< So...you'll be sticking with PalmOS after all? Especially on a kernel that's been proven 1000 times more stable than anything MS has put out since DOS (which they didn't really develop)? More corporations use Unix/Linux than you imagine. The reason you never really hear about it is the community doesn't talk about it enough, and because you never hear about Linux servers crashing (because it's so rare....I've seen Linux servers literally run for years w/out requiring a reboot). EVERYONE has something to say about the problems with Windows, making it seem even more dominant than it really is. Not that MS hasn't dominated the desktop world (they have for the most part), and taken a significant server market share, but they don't own the arena yet, not by a long shot. Nor do they "own" the mobile arena. Far from it, which is why you see all the contortions/gyrations out of Redmond right now to have a stable, portable OS. Unfortunately, they've taken a poor approach to it, trying to fit a desktop OS into mobile devices, which creates a lot of overhead and a generally frustrating user experience, just like on your Windoze desktop. Hey...just my $0.02. =) Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. RE: Great! No guilt in switching!
Lol...I wasn't that serious when I made that post. But, the linux kernel will be totally new, hence unproven yet. And with every new kernel, especially one that handles multitasking/multithreading, we should expect some level of teething problems assoctiated with it. It'll no doubt be different from the previous POS (I remember reading that older programs will require an 'emulator' of some sort to work) so previous 'stable OS' claims can't be used with the linux version.
Btw, WinMob isn't that 'unstable' as most claim. I've seen people using it for weeks without ever needing to reset the device. I'm no WinMob fan, always prefered POS's simplicity since OS3's days, but WinMob has definately evolved over the years. If I have to switch, well... I wouldn't mind it at all. Especially since their devices are better in build quality and feature packed.
Interesting Read
Glad to get a good read from you Mike. I look forward to comparing your article here to the soon to come on from me at BargainPDA. I think we look at things the same way, I just tend to be less the sky is falling abuot it. Very interesting still. PalmOS has to go somewhere. Proverbs 29:18 says that where there is no vision, people perish. I wonder if the floundering in the PalmOS world is due to the lack of vision for a season. RE: Interesting Read
Wow, that has to be the longest running collection of text I've seen from you without some cussin'. I'm impressed. Ryan, give him the mic more often ... it's reforming him. :-D RE: Interesting ReadStrider_mt2k @ 12/11/2004 9:24:00 AM #
Quite the opposie.
Don't reward foolish behavior with credibility.
Very big misunderstanding
"The third shoe to drop was the bombshell of Cobalt basically becoming a skin for a variant of Linux!" PalmOS for Linux will be a "skin for a variant of Linux" as much as MacOS X is a "skin for a variant of Mach". It's the same approach. You have to realize, we are talking about the Linux KERNEL. This is not the thing that users see. It is, by and large, not the thing that developers code against. It is a very small part of the "platform". The vast majority of the platform -- the parts that we see as our core value -- is outside of the kernel. We are not saying "the operating system no longer matters to us". We are saying "the kernel is not a core value of our platform". Keep in mind that Linux would be the -fouth- kernel PalmOS runs on during its lifetime. Did you know about the other three? Do you care? As far as having the "core apps" running on PocketPC, I think it is pretty unlikely to happen. Our applications are built on top of our platform, which is not just going to magically run on PocketPC. Porting it to Linux is going to be enough work in itself, and it seems quite unlikely to me that Microsoft will give us enough access to their kernel for us to port our platform to it. :)
RE: Very big misunderstanding
Diane, you make an good bit of clarity there. I think that in some ways, people have missed over the fact that PS would be using the Linux kernel rather than the full OS. Part of that is understanding programming and development, which not too many people do. Some only know Linux from an alternative point of view and that lends to more of that "sky is falling" mentality. I know that it wasn't outlined (except in the statement about there being lower cost devices that would be able to be made), but what other benefits does having a Linux kernel have to the PalmOS? RE: Very big misunderstandingBostonnerd @ 12/10/2004 3:36:49 PM #
Diane; Okay....other then giving the PalmSource Marketing department multiple climaxes, what exactly is the point of the Linux Kernel? * You're going to use an Open Source Kernel and layer a proprietary closed code abstraction layer on top of it. What’s the point...does the world really need another embedded RTOS? Motorola and others have spend enormous amounts on Linux for mobile. Have you seen any results? Hmmmm...You've already recouped (I would hope) R&D on Garnett a zillion years ago. You think the margins are going to be better with the new "Pinux"? * Your Sales weenies are drooling over all the potential sales in China. The Chinese carriers will buy it, as long as its impossbly cheap or free :). I have a vision of ever shrinking margins in your future. * Many tech companies have had to back way out of the China market due to the constant (and un-prosecuted) IP rip-offs. How long do you think it will take for clones to be sold? My guess is as soon as the QA folks make exit criteria :) RE: Very big misunderstanding
"What’s the point...does the world really need another embedded RTOS? Motorola and others have spend enormous amounts on Linux for mobile. Have you seen any results" You bet. Linux is everywhere in embedded and mobile device already. You probably have several Linux devices in your home and office. Linux is by far the safest bet for any company building embedded and mobile devices right now. The real question is whether there are going to be any other embedded operating systems a few years from now. RE: Very big misunderstanding
Unless I mis-read the press releases, the point of using Linux is that it's better suited (and available) for running on cheap cell-phone hardware--not that it adds any special functionality. Seems to me that Linux is a complete non-issue. The only interesting thing about tbis whole bug is that PalmSource wants to get itself onto more run-of-the-mill, inexpensive cell phones. C RE: Very big misunderstanding
Dianne, Your correction of Mike Cane's misunderstanding was accurate and concise. It has no business here at Palminfocenter.com. RE: Very big misunderstanding
By the way, Mike's editorial tells us little more than he has an interesting imagination. Porting the PalmOS interface to Windows Mobile is fun to think about but has no basis in reality. It will not happen. C RE: No misunderstandingThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 4:19:48 PM #
Unless I mis-read the press releases, the point of using Linux is that it's better suited (and available) for running on cheap cell-phone hardware--not that it adds any special functionality. So why would Linux be a better choice than Cobalt? Is PalmSource admitting that Cobalt (or ant other current PalmOS version) is not scalable to inexpensive cellphones? INSANE. ****************************************************************** drivers
So why would Linux be a better choice than Cobalt? Because Cobalt requires either Palm or hardware vendors to write drivers for devices and chipsets themselves. That takes time and money. It's probably why you don't see any Cobalt devices yet. Linux, on the other hand, is so widely used that, vendors either already ship drivers, or the drivers are developed once and then shared. If you had read the announcement, you'd know that, because Palm spelled it out in there for you. RE: Very big misunderstanding
I am very rushed, so I just have time for a few lines (haven't been able to read anything past hackbod's comment) -- >>>As far as having the "core apps" running on PocketPC, I think it is pretty unlikely to happen. Then Nagel & Company are the biggest collection of imbeciles this side of the dopes who ran both Commodore and Atari into the ground (remember *those* "leaders"?). I see people have conflated two points. Let me be clearer on the PPC side of things: I am *not* stating Cobalt (or PalmNix or whatever the hell the name of the current mood is) is going to be ported to run on the WinMob kernal. Duh. I said the CORE APPS will be (whether you like it or not, hackbod; and you can choose not to dirty your hands with this task, I'm sure). Let's call the core apps: 1) Palm Calendar These would (or as I state, *will*) be ported to PPC and sold like any other 3rd-party app (ie, Pocket Informant). Except, if there are ANY ANY ANY brains AT ALL at PalmSource, they will be bundled with Palm Desktop and whatever else PS cares to throw in as, let's unimaginatively call it, "Palm Suite" or "PalmWorks." Well, I'm sure MS is watching, and they are not complete dopes. They ALREADY understand what I'm saying. Do you? By offering such a package to PPC owners, the *per-suite price* would be HIGHER than what the hell PS could haggle out of a HARDWARE MAKER. What, do you think MS got into Word, Excel, et al, by accident? Go read up on what Simonyi told Gates & Co at the time. Simonyi is richer than Nagel will *ever* be -- and as the Father of MS Word -- actually has shipped product that's gotten in the hands of end-users. Et tu, Cobalt? As I said, am rushed. More later. RE: Very big misunderstanding
Dianne, that's not clear for me, will we be able to run some Linux apps on that OS? At least in something like Cobalt's Binder Shell (will we have that also?) ____________________ Future Online! Sorry for my bad english :( RE: Very big misunderstanding
Mike, its been a few years since I used a Palm. Have the basic apps improved tremendously since then, such that people would pay more than $5 for them? Compare this with pocketinformant, which does ALL that those 4 apps do, with plenty of features, and does it very stylishly. I haven't even looked at the bundles apps on my pocketpc for years. What you suggest would turn PalmOne into 3rd tier pocketpc producer, and Palmsource into a small software house with crap apps. Competition would get rid of both very quickly. Surur RE: Very big misunderstanding
Mike, To be blunt, the biggest reason to not port to PPC, is that PPC won't even be around in 3 years. Just MS smartphone and XP's successor... Why? Look at hardware trends compared to software requirements. If someone wanted to, they could make a <10oz PPC sized XP handheld for <$1000 right now. In 2 years that will be a 6oz XP handheld for <$500. (MS will make $70+ just off of XP on a handheld, but makes <$15 for PPC OS + Pocket Office, so they have a *huge* incentive to have this happen.) In 2-3 years, PalmOS on PDAs would have to compete with XP. Having a linux kernal makes it more likely to succeed against it. It also means that the same PalmOS platform holds all up and down the product lineup, while MS has a development gap between XP & smartphone. (It also makes them better able to compete against Symbian.) RE: Very big misunderstanding
Bostennerd: "* Many tech companies have had to back way out of the China market due to the constant (and un-prosecuted) IP rip-offs. How long do you think it will take for clones to be sold? My guess is as soon as the QA folks make exit criteria :)" Yeah, this one would worry me as well. Doing business in China is like trying to play fetch with a tiger. There's a completely different view of how things work in the Chinese world. PalmSource better have some very good and exceedingly loyal Chinese nationals working for them on that side of the pond. Allow me to speak for Mistress Hackborn:The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 10:25:40 PM #
Okay....other then giving the PalmSource Marketing department multiple climaxes, what exactly is the point of the Linux Kernel? Linux = known entity, already has legitimacy + presence with businesses, appeals to anti-Microsoft crusaders Vs. PalmOS 6 = none of the above * You're going to use an Open Source Kernel and layer a proprietary closed code abstraction layer on top of it. What’s the point...does the world really need another embedded RTOS? Motorola and others have spend enormous amounts on Linux for mobile. Have you seen any results? Hmmmm...You've already recouped (I would hope) R&D on Garnett a zillion years ago. You think the margins are going to be better with the new "Pinux"? Who cares what the world "needs"? This is about finding ways for PalmSource to make its product appealing enough in order to generate sufficient sales to someday become profitable. Like a real business. PalmSource's accountants convinced the rocket scientists on the Board that selling 3 million $10 OS licenses per year is not as good as selling 15 million $5 OS licences per year. Go figure. * Your Sales weenies are drooling over all the potential sales in China. The Chinese carriers will buy it, as long as its impossbly cheap or free :). I have a vision of ever shrinking margins in your future. PalmSource will make it up on the volume. * Many tech companies have had to back way out of the China market due to the constant (and un-prosecuted) IP rip-offs. How long do you think it will take for clones to be sold? My guess is as soon as the QA folks make exit criteria :) Therein lies the rub. Just look what happened to Roy Horn (of "Siegfried & Roy"). ****************************************************************** PalmLinux... Coming soon in 2007!The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 10:59:22 PM #
>>>So why would Linux be a better choice than Cobalt? Is PalmSource admitting that Cobalt (or any other current PalmOS version) is not scalable to inexpensive cellphones? INSANE. Because Cobalt requires either Palm or hardware vendors to write drivers for devices and chipsets themselves. That takes time and money. It's probably why you don't see any Cobalt devices yet. Linux, on the other hand, is so widely used that, vendors either already ship drivers, or the drivers are developed once and then shared. If you had read the announcement, you'd know that, because Palm spelled it out in there for you. Ummmmm.... tompi, are you new here? Is English your second language? Next time I'll use *SARCASM* flags to alert you... For the past three years I've said that Palm needed to migrate to a UNIX-based OS if it wanted to survive. Unfortunately, nepotism rules at Palm, resulting in an influx of unemployed Be engineers. These BRAINIACS are the ones responsible for PalmSource's current (check) position. Instead of buying a 99 cent cake mix from the grocery store, the Be engineers insisted on growing their own organic flour, eggs from the finest pampered free range chickens, organic butter derived from happy, hormone and antibiotic-free cows, all mixed by a flaming French pastry chef named Pépé Gassee. Too bad they didn't have time to find some organic cane sugar, organic baking soda, organic salt, or natural spring water. (checkmate) ****************************************************************** RE: Very big misunderstandingThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 1:49:26 AM #
What you suggest would turn PalmOne into 3rd tier pocketpc producer, and Palmsource into a small software house with crap apps. Competition would get rid of both very quickly. Well said. This "editorial" is beyond absurd. ****************************************************************** RE: Diane, thanks for clarification
I understand your point and analogy to Mac OSX. I also understand Mike's point on PalmSuite. Very interesting developments anyway you look at it, although one conclusion seems to be that Colbart got de-railed at some point. RE: Very big misunderstanding
Mike: When talking about a subject, it helps if you can spell the important nouns. K-E-R-N-*E*-L. RE: Very big misunderstandingBostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 7:57:40 AM #
"You bet. Linux is everywhere in embedded and mobile device already. You probably have several Linux devices in your home and office." Tompi; Actually, my lab (office) has every Linux server OS variant on the market (along with every GA HPUX, AIX, Solaris, and Msoft systems). As to embedded applications, Wind River and Msoft still rule that area, although Linux is beginning to make some headway. For mobile device applications Linux is still far from the embeddded system of choice. As I stated, companies such as Motorola and DoCoMo have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in developing Linux embedded Kernels for mobile applications with little to show for it. What makes you think that a very under capitalized PalmSource is going to succeed? Linux has its own set of problems/issues relating to driver development (among other things) that can seriously gate its use in the mobile space. That being said, I'm more tacticly interested in the stagnation of the Palm written layer. The current Palm OS is held together by bubble gum and bandaids. The core PIM apps are ancient and creaking under the strain. Both Newton and Psion would still stack up well against it (and in many cases surpass it), even today. With PalmSource now shifting its resources to "Pinux", the next 12 months (if not longer) will consist of sustaining the existing code base and kludging together some minor additional feature/function. So were does that leave PalmOne, while PalmSource is off chasing the "Pinux" rainbow? Either they diversify their Kernel, continue to hack OS5, or sit back and wait for PalmSource to execute (the track record on this one isn't encouraging). Mike C. does indeed have a valid agument that they are seriously considering moving in other directions. RE: Very big misunderstandingBostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 9:10:09 AM #
< Vs. PalmOS 6 = none of the above>> While somewhat true in the Enterprise Server space, it doesn't hold as much weight in the embedded market. Do you really think a Cell carrier cares? Do you think anyone cares that Cisco uses Wind River for their RTOS or that the majority of ATMs use Msoft XP Embedded? I don't think that's on the list of RFP questions for the buyer. < That assumes that the market opportunities exist for "Pinux" at that level. If the future is in smartphones and not PDAs, there are many companies in Asia that can throw together a PIM layer. Do you think that all of those millions of potential Chinese purchasers care about Outlook syncs??? Having a Linux Kernel vs "whatever" doesn't make the device any more or less appealing to either an end user or carrier. It probably is at the bottom of the list. < RE: Very big misunderstandingBostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 9:27:53 AM #
Sorry about that VOR, let's try again.... "Linux = known entity, already has legitimacy + presence with businesses, appeals to anti-Microsoft crusaders While somewhat true in the Enterprise Server space, it doesn't hold as much weight in the embedded market. Do you really think a Cell carrier cares? Do you think anyone cares that Cisco uses Wind River for their RTOS or that the majority of ATMs use Msoft XP Embedded? I don't think that's on the list of RFP questions for the buyer. "Who cares what the world "needs"? This is about finding ways for PalmSource to make its product appealing enough in order to generate sufficient sales to someday become profitable. Like a real business. PalmSource's accountants convinced the rocket scientists on the Board that selling 3 million $10 OS licenses per year is not as good as selling 15 million $5 OS licences per year. Go figure."
"PalmSource will make it up on the volume." Maybe... RE: Very big misunderstanding
Oh this is some great stuff here (except, as usual, that nitwit who styles himself as a Voice of something or other). Spelling: I did ask Ryan to run it through a spellcheck. He didn't. For the fellow who caught "kernal," I guess you're used to tech terms only, because the biggest whopper there is actually "collosus." Those of you who think this isn't just a skin (hell, maybe I should have downgraded it to a *Band-Aid*!), will eventually come around to my way of thinking; I don't give a damn how much coding you've done or what degrees you have. You Will See. And, yes, I *have* tried Pocket Informant. *All* PPC PIMs -- from MS and their assorted third-parties (free, share, or outright pay) -- are abominations compared to the ease of entry of the "ancient" POS core apps. RE: Very big misunderstandingBostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 10:37:20 AM #
"And, yes, I *have* tried Pocket Informant. *All* PPC PIMs -- from MS and their assorted third-parties (free, share, or outright pay) -- are abominations compared to the ease of entry of the "ancient" POS core apps." Ease of entry does not necessarily equate to suitibility or usefulness. For those of us that live with Outlook in a corporate environment (or Lotus groupware), the lack of support for groupware features is a major impediment. From the lack of Outlook field support, to the inability to see meeting attendees, the Palm PIM just doesn't hunt in the corporate environment (yes I know about the "shrink wrapped" alternatives)... RE: Very big misunderstanding
Is the iPod a corporate product? I guess it must fail by your standards, then. I stated elsewhere here: Not everyone uses or wants to use Outlook. Palm Desktop can compete with it for *everyday people*. Like, say, the current cellphone users of China (which, although cited as being larger than that of our entire population in the US, can't *all* be corporate workers!). iPod defined downloadble music for everyday people. Palm Desktop can do it for PIM for everyday people. RE: Very big misunderstandingBostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 11:20:36 AM #
Well, in that case, they'd better get busy porting it to Miracle Linux :). Have you ever been to China Mike? Outside of a few cities, a home PC is at the bottom of the average workers wish list. At best, the cellphone *is* the computer for most of these people. Large Chinese multinational companies (Bank of China, China Air, etc) have the same requirements as any other corporate type, be it the US or Europe. "Kernel" vs "Kernal"
From Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: kernel
The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box to the right. Suggestions for kernal: 1. carnal RE: Very big misunderstanding
By the way it's spelled "Cobalt" not "Cobolt" Sorry of being picky, but this is such amusing thread, where everybody seems to know everything about everything. PalmOS 6: AWOL. PalmOS 5: shot up, bloody, alone, surroundedThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 6:24:50 PM #
That being said, I'm more tacticly interested in the stagnation of the Palm written layer. The current Palm OS is held together by bubble gum and bandaids. The core PIM apps are ancient and creaking under the strain. Both Newton and Psion would still stack up well against it (and in many cases surpass it), even today. With PalmSource now shifting its resources to "Pinux", the next 12 months (if not longer) will consist of sustaining the existing code base and kludging together some minor additional feature/function. So were does that leave PalmOne, while PalmSource is off chasing the "Pinux" rainbow? Either they diversify their Kernel, continue to hack OS5, or sit back and wait for PalmSource to execute (the track record on this one isn't encouraging).
PalmOS 5 can continue to support devices for the next two years if PalmSource gives it adequate resources. Right now, PalmOS 5 is treated as a ba$tard child compared to the Be-derived "Golden Child", PalmOS 6. PalmOS 5 engineers need to be given more help and freed from the cramped dungeon the poor junior codemonkeys were locked in soon after the Holy Be engineers arrived. Remember, PalmLinux is VAPORWARE. Talking about it doesn't make it exist in the lab or, more importantly, on devices. For that matter, for all intents and purposes, until consumers can buy real PalmOS 6 devices, PalmOS 6 is also vaporware. ****************************************************************** RE: Very big misunderstanding
As to embedded applications, Wind River and Msoft still rule that area, although Linux is beginning to make some headway. Microsoft has never "ruled" the embedded OS area. And, as you may have noticed, WindRiver is shipping Eclipse and Linux as well now. As I stated, companies such as Motorola and DoCoMo have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in developing Linux embedded Kernels for mobile applications with little to show for it. Yes, you keep stating that, but you don't provide any data. I don't know how much money Motorola has invested in Linux. They also invested money in porting Windows to PPC, and you can tell where that went. The fact that Motorola screws up tells you something about Motorola, not what they screw up on. And with all that, they are actually shipping Linux-based phones and embedded devices. What makes you think that a very under capitalized PalmSource is going to succeed? If Axis and Linksys manage to build entire, successful product lines around it, PalmSource should have not trouble with it. Linux has its own set of problems/issues relating to driver development (among other things) that can seriously gate its use in the mobile space. Again, those are your unsubstantiated assertions. I claim that I don't see any more problems with Linux driver development than with other common operating systems. And because drivers are shared within the Linux community in source form, the need to develop derivers is greatly reduced anyway. That being said, I'm more tacticly interested in the stagnation of the Palm written layer. The current Palm OS is held together by bubble gum and bandaids. The core PIM apps are ancient and creaking under the strain. Yes. And Palm is addressing that in PalmOS 6. All it needs is a portable kernel that's acceptable to hardware vendors. Palm's proprietary kernel is not, Linux probably will be. Mike C. does indeed have a valid agument that they are seriously considering moving in other directions. Microsoft has always made it clear that branding is very important to them and they won't Palm replace PocketPC's user interface with a Palm-proprietary layer. Yuo will see Microsoft apps on your PPC when you start it up, whether you want them or not. PalmSource's near-term future is as a vendor of embedded user interfaces that sit on top of commodity kernels. If they play their cards right, they can do fairly well in that space for about 5 years until that software becomes commoditized. Then, they need to figure out something else. RE: Very big misunderstanding
Ummmmm.... tompi, are you new here? Is English your second language? Next time I'll use *SARCASM* flags to alert you... Maybe English isn't your first language or maybe you are new to discussion forums, but that is exactly what you have to do. For the past three years I've said that Palm needed to migrate to a UNIX-based OS if it wanted to survive. Well, how nice for you. But I have no idea who you are, nor is anybody going to do a lot of background research on you before responding. In on-line forums, your posts need to be as self-contained and unambiguous as possible. If you are relying on people to know who you are in order to interpret your statements, you are doing something wrong. RE: Very big misunderstandingRhinoSteve @ 12/12/2004 1:21:28 PM #
I think a retraction or partial retraction is in order here. Mike, you totally screwed up on this one. RE: Very big misunderstandingThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 2:43:23 PM #
Well, how nice for you. But I have no idea who you are, nor is anybody going to do a lot of background research on you before responding. In on-line forums, your posts need to be as self-contained and unambiguous as possible. If you are relying on people to know who you are in order to interpret your statements, you are doing something wrong. Did you take your medicine today, tompi? Mother is going to be quite cross if you didn't. Take care, Sweetie. ****************************************************************** RE: Very big misunderstanding
someone wrote: > MacOS X is a "skin for a variant of Mach". I prefer to think of NextStep or Darwin as a BSD Unix kernel variant on top of a Mach micro-kernel. And MacOS X Carbon/Cocoa "skins" Apple's version of Darwin. (A Nit, of course.) Why would anyone WANT to buy the core apps on PPC?
Frankly, why would anyone want to buy the core apps on PPC? Are they any better than the core apps supplied with the PPC? I don't think so. I certainly wouldn't use them. Heck! I don't use them for my Palm. I use Tealphone, Datebk5, Docs2go. I think PalmSource would create a product no one wants. Why I buy the Palm is stability and number of apps. RE: Very big misunderstanding
> I use Tealphone, Datebk5, ... Tealphone, Datebk5 sit on top of databases of the built-in PalmOS apps and use the PalmOS GUI. PalmOS is about APPS. If developers move to PPC, Palm's deadThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 6:50:09 PM #
Tealphone, Datebk5 sit on top of databases of the built-in PalmOS apps and use the PalmOS GUI.
His point is that Palm's simplistic main PIM apps would not be competitive if offered as standalone 3rd party apps for PPC. There are already many PIM replacement apps for PPC. It's highly unlikely that many PPC users would be interested in purchasing a port of Palm's PIM apps. On the other hand, I'm sure there would/will be a lot of interest if apps like DateBk5, TealPhone, Documents To Go, etc are ported. (And they can be.) This should be Palm's worst nightmare: pi$$ off enough developers like DateBk5's author, CES Dewar to the point that they abandon the Palm platform and start coding exclusively for PPC. That would be the kiss of death for Palm. I'm amazed that Microsoft hasn't offered the creme de la creme PalmOS developers some major incentives to switch to PPC. Palm's much-touted app library advantage is now much less of a factor than it was as recently as in 2002. Convince a few more people like the DateBk5 author, TealPoint, etc to join others like Astraware already coding for PPC and suddenly Palm's app advantage disappears. Remarkably, Palm's recent behaviour has shown not much more than thinly-veiled contempt towards developers. The DateBk5 author and many others are not impressed. Something's rotten in the state of PalmSource™ ******************************************************************
Palm is a sinking ship.....
....and I'm glad I made the jump to Windows Mobile. My Dell Axim x50v blows away ANY Palm device out there (not even because it has a 640x480 vga screen). *waves goodbye to Palm* RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....just_little_me @ 12/10/2004 4:03:06 PM #
Well then what the **** are you doing here...? Trolling is what... because you can't WAVE goodbye... if you seriously were over Palm OS you wouldn't be here... Now bugger off and annoy someone else you dipsh*t...!
RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Now, now. Treat them well. They *will* be back. If Nagel doesn't screw it all up... Come back for what?
Because they played around with the Palm core apps on a PPC and thought they wanted to migrate down to the company that wrote them? Is it somehow in your view that the "core apps" are all that compelling? Help me understand this one. RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Hey just little me.....how about you take your palm device, set several vibrating alarms, and shove it up your A$$!! If you can't handle someone criticizing your precious Palm, you're in the wrong place. perhaps I wasn't informed that I wasn't allowed to come here now that I've bought a Windows Mobile devide. While you're trying to surf the web with your 320x480 (if you even have something beyond 320x320), I'll enjoy my 640x480 screen resolution surfing the web via wi-fi which gets rendered properly via style sheets. I'll also multi-task while surfing to do countless other tasks, none of which get interrupted to start a new one.....try that with your Palm. I've owned SEVERAL Palm devices, and I've also owned a PPC in the past (which at the time I wasn't happy with and came back to Palm). Palm is slowly dying, and this is a last ditch effort for them to grasp on to their dwindling market share. Good luck! RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
>>>Because they played around with the Palm core apps on a PPC and thought they wanted to migrate down to the company that wrote them? Is it somehow in your view that the "core apps" are all that compelling? You'll have to rephrase that for me to better understand what you're asking. Anyone who has been a hard-core user of the POS core apps and then tries the MS PPC core apps can't get away from what a thoughtless, inconsistent, stupid, and ill-designed mess the PPC core apps are (I'm talking about the 4 PIMs that palmOne renamed in their, uh, honor). And all the "enhancements" available from other sources are even worse. Two points: 1) The PPC core apps are made to work with Outlook. Bulletin: Not everyone uses OL or *wants* to use OL. Palm Desktop can compete against it. PD is made for human beings, not corporate types who are used to the Corporate Way of doing things (which is essentially Top-Down militaristic follow-orders-or-else-and-this-is-the-way-we-do-it). 2) iTunes. Look at how Apple has effectively squashed MS's amibitions in the downloadable-music space by porting one of their key Mac apps to Windows. 3) Hello! What was once *Palm Reader* was ported to PPC. (Not that that did them any real damned good; MS Reader still rules for two reasons: a) it is actually better suited to *readers*, and b) MS will allow anyone to create ebooks for it and distribute *jillions* of them for FREE!) RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....Bostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 11:12:01 AM #
"1) The PPC core apps are made to work with Outlook. Bulletin: Not everyone uses OL or *wants* to use OL. Palm Desktop can compete against it. PD is made for human beings, not corporate types who are used to the Corporate Way of doing things (which is essentially Top-Down militaristic follow-orders-or-else-and-this-is-the-way-we-do-it)." This is too funny! And who do you think are buying those $600 Treos, the pizza delivery guy?? I'm spending this kind of money for a business tool, not a Happy Meal(tm) toy. And, as a business tool, it had better $%^& well provide full support for Outlook or Lotus. RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Something can provide "full support" (and does) for those folks who actually like and use Outlook. No one is agguing against that, or syaing a product which *doesn't* interface with Outlook is viable in the corp. market. We shouldn't be forced to use or sync with Outlook however. I don't use Outlook as my primary PIM, although I read company mail on it's e-mail function. I primarily stick with Palm because it *doesn't* require integration with Outlook but has a much more efficient desktop and palmtop UI. My 0.02,
RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
How can you insult eReader so! Its brilliant, and has much more CONTENT available than Microsoft reader. THe DRM is MUCH better. It may be the best thing that ever came from Palm. MS Reader may look nice, but its incredibly slow, and mainly it has no content. Give me eReader every day. Regarding the Palm basic apps, the only reason entering appointments are cumbersome on a pocketpc is that there are so many options to chose from (and more categories even!) Maybe that negates the Zen of palm, but I personally like choice. Surur RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Ironically and contrary to popular belief Windows Mobile is less integrated to Outlook than PalmOS. To be more correct the conduit bundled with PalmOS is more better integrated. Ironically and contrary to popular belief Windows Mobile is less integrated with Excel and Word than Documents To Go bundled with most PalmOS PDAs. Another beef I have with Windows Mobile devices is for god sake put a flip cover on your devices!!!!!!! Both are great devices in their own right, but as far as organization goes the bland integrated PalmOS apps IMHO are better. Flip cover
"Another beef I have with Windows Mobile devices is for god sake put a flip cover on your devices!!!!!!!" The #2 thing I hate about my TT2: no flip cover. (The #1 thing being the slider.) RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Why the hell would there need to be a flip cover on the device? Do you want to look like James Kirk with his communicator? Get a slip case or other sort of case if you're concerned about protecting the screen. Flip covers and other extraneous discussions
Khris, this obviously came as a surprise to you, but there are some of us who actually prefer the functionality of a simple flip cover to having to slide the device out of a slip cover every time we want to use it. In general, I find almost every add-on case to be bulky to the degree I don't want to use it. A flip cover is a minimalistic approach to providing the screen protection I want. I don't know why that would be so hard to figure out, but I hope my explanation helps. Put another way, I might ask you, "Why in the world would anyone want to run Windows on a handheld device?" I'm sure you have some explanation, so I wouldn't frame my question in a way that assumes you are somehow an idiot for choosing to do so. RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Khris, having spent most of your time with Palm, you may not know about the demand for flip covers from the pocketpc community (which was only recently answered again by HP with one of their 2000 series handhelds, after abandoning the 56x series). Cases add bulk, and can make a slim unit double the size. I believe the lack of (easily removable) flip covers are simple profiteering my OEM's, by increasing the wear and tear on our unit, so that we replace them more often. And if people think this is paranoid, how do we explain the ever changing sync ports at the bottom? And to twrock "Why in the world would anyone want to run Windows on a handheld device?" soon the pocketpc community will say "Why in the world would anyone want to run Linux on a handheld device?" Its the same question, and the answer is that while there may be superficial resemblances, they are by far not the same as their big brother OS's Surur Surur RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....Strider_mt2k @ 12/12/2004 7:25:40 AM #
One of the few redeeming qualities about the m100 series was the cleverly designed all-the-way-back flip covers with the clock viewing hole. Simple and effective. Ruggedness was another endearing quality. Between the two, those things could survive quite a bit. They died for OTHER reasons. :( RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Thin Flip Case, Sync in Cradle for PPC http://www.senacases.com/catalog/DELL-AXIM-X50-X50v-CASES-p-1-c-313.html GREAT PRODUCTS!!! RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
From using a Palm IIIxe and LOATHING the flip cover, I've never seen the use or need for it. I'd much rather have some sort of protective case that could protect the device in the event of a slight drop or bumps/bruises. A flip cover isn't going to do anything except fly off in the event of a drop. I understand it's there to protect the screen, but it's not going to provide much protection in the event of a somewhat more serious accident. As for why I've switched to PPC, there are several reasons, the major one being the lack of quality devices produced by Palm. $599 CDN for a T5 compared to $519 CDN (currently on sale) for a Dell Axim.....hmmm, tough choice. For $519 I get Wifi, BT, SD and CF expansion slots, 640x480 vga resolution, and more.....for $599 you get a 320x480 screen, SD expansion, BT, and LESS overall. I still have my T2, and everytime I look at it I wonder why I've let myself follow Palm like a blind sheep for so long. If Palm works for you then great, but it no longer works for me and I feel that a lot of people are going to be changing their views as well. RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Gekko, That case is nice and all, but it must add 4 mm at least to the thickness of the unit. A metal or plastic flip cover would only add approx 2mm. And to Khris, hating the flip cover on your palm so much, I hope you just removed it. It comes off rather easily if I recall correctly. Flip covers costs cents to make, and should be included routinely, just like extra styli. Forcing everyone who want to protect the front of their device to buy expensive cases is just ridiculous. Surur RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Lets face it people, PalmOne is sinking...want more salt in the wound? Try the newly released Tungsten | T5 Vs Dell Axim x50v The T5 gets horribly slaped to nothing but a tiny silverly pulp. UNLIKE the T5, the Dell Axim x50v has BELT IN Wi-Fi which caused everyone to go on an international b!tchfest, don't forget the belt in Bluetooth too. Unlike the T5, the Dell Axim x50v has a larger resolution screen, 640x480, while the T5 still hasn't got anything higher than 320x480. Keep in mind it also has integrated CompactFlash Type II and Secure Digital / SDIO Now! / MMC card slots provide flexible expansion, dual slots, funny, I don't see anything like that on the T5, heheh...
RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
>.> Let's see now... T5 retails at $399 at the PalmOne website, the X50v retails at $424 from Dell's site. Wow... imagine that, $35 difference, you ought to be a fool to see who's offering more here. Clie-SJ22>>Tungsten | E >>> Clie-NX60>>Zire 72 RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
$25, try typing with a delapidated 10 year old keyboard and three minutes till you have to leave for work.
Clie-SJ22>>Tungsten | E >>> Clie-NX60>>Zire 72
PocketPc's actually DO have APPS.
Many palmistas still labour under the impression that pocketpc world is a desert of no apps. Thats so 5 years ago. I suspect there are now more actively maintained pocketpc apps than palm apps. The basic PalmOS apps has nearly no value as an add-on. Pocketinformant is a million times better. Notes are better than memos. What would PalmOS bring to the table? I agree this is disinformation, but only because it makes so little sense for any of the participants. It would only work if it was the dying gasp of a company trying to extract the last cent from their IP, not caring for the dignity of their demise.... No that I think of it, who knows, maybe you are right after all.... Surur RE: PocketPc's actually DO have APPS.
>>>Pocketinformant is a million times better. Perhaps for those who love The Outlook Way of Doing Things. I prefer Palm Date Book. It's built for regular people. If Pocket Informant was the interface to the iPod, the iPod would have been DOA. RE: PocketPc's actually DO have APPS.
I love Palm Desktop and the basic Palm apps too. I've been using them for over 5 years, and they continue to work great for me (along with Docs to Go of course).
One of the reasons I use PalmOS is BECAUSE of the basic Palm apps and Palm Desktop. PalmOS devices are looking less and less appealing lately, what with killing off Graffiti, and only PalmOne making hardware now (and IMO their hardware is poorly designed and unreliable). I'll probably end up switching to a WinCE device for my next PDA, but I'd buy a Palm bundle with the basic Palm apps, maybe a Palm style launcher and Palm Desktop for WinCE in a second if it was available.
Why are we talking about OSs and software?
It's the Palmone hardware that is the problem. No WiFi and exhorbitant prices is what's killing Palm, not a bad OS. Cheers! RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
To be fair its possible for an OS to be part of the reason it's hard to sort out the hardware, but it is a good point - PalmOne's hardware has been disappointing to say the least. RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
"It's the Palmone hardware that is the problem. No WiFi and exhorbitant prices is what's killing Palm, not a bad OS." WiFi--several companies gave up on WiFi cards, apparently because they just couldn't get the drivers to work. Stowaway Bluetooth keyboard for Palm--they haven't finished the drivers for Palm yet. Linux fixes those kinds of problems. As for prices, I think Palm is simply charging what the market will bear for the HW/SW combo. The fact that they are getting away with it shows you that people still like the platform. RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
My understanding is that palmOne refused to provide assistance to SanDisk, WiFi Guys, etc., which prevented them from developing Wi-Fi solutions for the T3, TE, T5. Clearly, the reason they did that was to force the consumer to purchase their more expensive branded solution. This is likely the holdup on the keyboard, perhaps TO decided to not offer the several months of exclusive sales they have in the past to palmOne. It is this attitude that is sinking Palm (both companies). Look at Tapwave - They worked WITH Sandisk to produce drivers and you can pick up a $60 card for it. If Tapwave could produce a smaller PDA-centric device with Wi-Fi built in (c'mon, pretty soon even our freaking toasters will have built-in Wi-Fi), they would put a serious hurting on palmOne's higher-end PDA sales. RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
The Tungsten C (I use one BTW), is an ancient, outdated PDA. Look at what's offered in the bundle for the unreasonable price of 400USD. (The web browser is worst than IE 3.0). So please don't compare it with anything on the market. RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
Comparing the T|C with modern PPCs is ridiculous. Look at what you get for <$400 for the Axim 50v! BT RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
Yes, that's true, Alric, the T/C is an old device. Better to compare it with the spec of PPCs available at the time (when it stacks up very favourably -- but no longer). RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
Of the time is the point. Where the heck is an update? At the time it blew away the competition, but now it's getting long in the tooth. PalmOS loyalist have been practically begging for a replacement and instead get a wifi card for more $$. RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
My understanding is that palmOne refused to provide assistance to SanDisk, WiFi Guys, etc., which prevented them from developing Wi-Fi solutions for the T3, TE, T5. Clearly, the reason they did that was to force the consumer to purchase their more expensive branded solution. That's not so clear to me. I suspect Palm just didn't have a complete, reliable WiFi solution (the TC was still a one-off solution where they had complete control of the hw/sw). It took them forever to get their own SDIO WiFi card out. This is likely the holdup on the keyboard, perhaps TO decided to not offer the several months of exclusive sales they have in the past to palmOne. I contacted TO and their answer was that it was just a lot harder to develop the Palm version of the driver. Look at Tapwave - They worked WITH Sandisk to produce drivers and you can pick up a $60 card for it. Yes, but by now, most of the hard work has been done. In any case, with a Linux-based kernel, we won't have to guess anymore: the driver architecture is known and proven, and the drivers will be out there for everybody to see. If Tapwave could produce a smaller PDA-centric device with Wi-Fi built in (c'mon, pretty soon even our freaking toasters will have built-in Wi-Fi), they would put a serious hurting on palmOne's higher-end PDA sales. I doubt it: WiFi just isn't a big deal for most users; Bluetooth is far more important for PDAs. And with dual SDIO slots, built-in WiFi is even less of an issue for Tapwave. RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
I doubt it: WiFi just isn't a big deal for most users; Bluetooth is far more important for PDAs. You had me until that statement. In case you haven't noticed, Wi-Fi is THE HOTTEST technology being rolled out today. I have a pricey Wi-Fi business report that shows phenomenal growth for the next several years, but all you have to do is take a look at how much shelf space is dedicated to WiFi products in CompUSA, then compare that to their Bluetooth accessory inventory. palmOne (and you) are about the only people who just don't get it. Bluetooth is nice, but it is at best a compliment to Wi-Fi. Once you have |
OK, so does that mean with a future Palm, say a T-7, the user can choose either the Palm OS or the WinMob on his device? I'm not sure what the benefit of porting the two operating systems would be.