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Comments on: Editorial: We, the Suckers

Mike Cane is back on his Palm OS soapbox with with one of his first articles for PalmInfocenter in some time. Mike has been covertly using and abusing PDA's running all sorts of operating systems and brings us his latest thoughts and opinions on the mobile industry. -Ryan
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2 in 1?

ozz @ 12/10/2004 1:52:11 PM #
They will port the core PalmOS apps to Windows Mobile.

OK, so does that mean with a future Palm, say a T-7, the user can choose either the Palm OS or the WinMob on his device? I'm not sure what the benefit of porting the two operating systems would be.

RE: 2 in 1?
mikecane @ 12/10/2004 4:47:46 PM #
No. For example, you will be able to run, say, an app called Palm Calendar. WinMob skin but everything else is Zen of Palm like (unlike the Catastrophe of WinMob!). Palm Calendar (and I do hope they call it that!) would be an alterantive 3rd-party program to use, just like Pocket Informant is right now on PPC.

RE: 2 in 1?
lobotomic @ 12/10/2004 7:21:16 PM #
Hey Mike,

It is amazing what a turmoil you've raised while having not the foggiest idea on what an operating system is.

Palm Source very probably could port their higher level APIs to Windows CE, if they wanted and wanted to pay the price. Windows CE is an embedded kernel over which you can build a GUI if you want -- but you can use it without a GUI, like the Sega Dreamcast did.

Also, there is not just one GUI that could run over WinCE: Microsoft had its first go at handheld PCs with a pretty unsophisticated GUI. Then it came up with progressively better editions of PocketPC. But the underlying kernel to PocketPC is Windows CE.

Finally, there is a lot more to a user environment than a kernel and a GUI. There are many more useful services that the operating system can provide: printing, synchronization, authentication, encryption, messaging, 3D, multimedia, and many more things nobody has even though up yet. If you want to call all that *just a skin*, then you are either unbelievably intelligent or plainly oblivious to your own ignorance.

Palm Source could port their high-level user environment to the CE infrastructure just the same as they are going to do over Linux, but what would they gain from that? It is NOT THE SAME as having all your apps running under PocketPC. They could also port their apps to PocketPC, but that would be a totally separate exercise, only equally pointless.

What they want from Linux is a sophisticated, powerful, well suported kernel they don't have to pay to maintain. For no money they get multitasking, threading, TCP/IP, real time, drivers for all kind of USB devices, Bluetooth, Wifi,compiler technology, several programming languages .... This amounts to BILLIONS of man-hours of work.

A kernel is a VERY sophisticated piece of work, and it takes a titanic effort to keep it up with the times. Microsoft sort of manages with XP and CE (they had to drop W95, though), but there is no denying they've got plenty of dough and no denying that they could do a lot better too.

Linux is receiving inputs from everywhere, as it runs in everything from Wifi access points to car navigation systems, industrial control systems, cellphones, handheld, desktop and mainframe computers, DVD players, whatever.

RE: 2 in 1?
lobotomic @ 12/10/2004 8:00:22 PM #
(sorry, I forgot my end line)
> Linux is receiving inputs from everywhere, as it runs in
> everything from Wifi access points to car navigation systems,
> industrial control systems, cellphones, handheld, desktop and
> mainframe computers, DVD players, whatever.

PalmSource can now freely profit from all that effort while, at the same time, adding their own polish to the kernel for everybody else to enjoy. This is what makes Linux ever more difficult to beat. But then, of course, why would you want to beat it?

RE: Lobo
Cheetah @ 12/11/2004 3:02:07 AM #
good writeup

RE: 2 in 1?
Surur @ 12/11/2004 6:18:12 AM #

Lobotomic, you make so much sense. The only question is why Palmsource waited so long, and if using a Linux GUI would actually benefit the Palm GUI and user experience in any way. The POS6 is apparently also very capable under the skin, but the e.g. multitasking that it exposes to the user is still very limited.

As has been said before, Palm has had 3 kernels before. They do not seem to have made much difference from the user POV, accept that Palms have become progressively more unstable.

Maybe the Linux kernel can fix this, and maybe it wont...

Surur

RE: 2 in 1?
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:12:35 AM #
My God!

>>>What they want from Linux is a sophisticated, powerful, well suported kernel they don't have to pay to maintain. For no money they get multitasking, threading, TCP/IP, real time, drivers for all kind of USB devices, Bluetooth, Wifi,compiler technology, several programming languages .... This amounts to BILLIONS of man-hours of work.

So, WTF are they *BUYING* CMS if all this stuff is allegedly "free"? And if you don't think they've effectively ditched Cobalt and made it a skin, just keep watching. You'll eventually be convinced.

RE: 2 in 1?
rsc1000 @ 12/11/2004 11:39:33 AM #
>>So, WTF are they *BUYING* CMS if all this stuff is allegedly "free"? And if you don't think they've effectively ditched Cobalt and made it a skin, just keep watching. You'll eventually be convinced.

They are buying CMS because CMS has Linux developers and already has an OS based on linux. Also - CMS has clients - they provide the OS / system software for a number of phone manufacturers and make there own devices as well (apparently - not sure what).

Mike - this is not just 'skinning' linux. What people think of presently as 'Cobolt' is really the Protein APIs (what all 3rd party developers would/will use to write code for Cobolt) + the underlying Cobolt kernal (developers don't ussually 'touch' this directly with their code). What PalmSource is doing is replacing the Cobolt kernal with the linux kernal - BUT the Protein APIs are all still there (ie - what people previously thought of as the 'Cobolt APIs'). You will not be able to run most Linux apps unchanged - you will have to re-write parts of the apps that deal with the interface at the very least. Conversly - people learning to dev for Cobolt (i.e. people learning / writting code using the Protien APIs) will be able to use the exact same code here (but recompiled for the new kernal).

But PalmSource's Protein API isn't just the GUI - these APIs handle most things (as lobotomic pointed out): communications, graphics, security/encryption, database operations, etc.
That is hardly a 'skin'. Nobody would call Mac OS X a skin for BSD.


RE: 2 in 1?
Wollombi @ 12/12/2004 9:57:57 AM #
>>"So, WTF are they *BUYING* CMS if all this stuff is allegedly "free"?"<<

They are buying a ready made kernel for mobile devices that will require little effort on thier part to polish up. This in itself is no big deal, since it is GPL'd, but they are also acquiring the talent that developed that kernel and knows it inside and out. This is no small detail, as well as the fact that they just got a boatload of qualified Linux coders/developers in the deal too, so the search, hiring, and training costs are eliminated for the most part. Again, no small detail. It costs enormous amounts of money, even in China, to find, interview, hire and train qualified people for any job. Employee turnover/acquisition costs companies large amounts of money each year.

>>"And if you don't think they've effectively ditched Cobalt and made it a skin, just keep watching. You'll eventually be convinced."<<

I truly hope you are wrong on this (no offense, Mike). You present a clear, logical thought process, but it seems based on incomplete understanding and/or information (again, no offense intended). As others have pointed out, there's a lot more to it than just "skinning" Linux, and the upshot is that the PalmOS has the potential to become exponentially more capable, robust, and flexible almost overnight, if PalmSource/CMS play their cards right and don't totally bugger it, and that, my friend is the wild card here. Will PalmSource do it right? Or will we be "Cobalted" again? Only time will tell.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: 2 in 1?
batmon @ 12/16/2004 7:43:03 PM #
I hope they won't port to WinCE...

OS/2 runs Windows --> dead
SUN runs Windows --> dead
Winodows runs Linux (winlinux) --> dead
Sun Java Desktop runs on Linux (http://wwws.sun.com/software/javadesktopsystem/index.html) --> might die too. Never heard of anyone using it



Talk about putting it on the line

RhinoSteve @ 12/10/2004 1:52:35 PM #
Well Mike, we have been going back and forth for a long time. This is either the biggest piece of disinformation I have seen in a long time or an honest view.

First you say PPC sucks and then the OS doesn't matter. I think perception is the big thing. One is the view of the customer "Is it cute and does it do what I want?" Second is the engineer "What OS and API will me code work with?" and then there is the Sewing circle PalmInfoCenter member "Palm Sucks! Nagel Sucks! If both don't suck then something else will!"

April PalmSource will tell the truth.

My take is this is your Grinch article to spoil the PalmSource Christmas party next week since you didn't get invited this time.

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
mikecane @ 12/10/2004 4:49:31 PM #
Ha. Some funny stuff there. No disinfo here -- when I have spread any? (*Intentionally*, that is.)

Well, it could spoil palmOne sales, but so what? Let them have to *earn* their customers again.

That said, I am *not* buying a WinMob device. I don't think it's time for another look until WinMob 2005 is released (and even then, NOT as an early buyer!).

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
ben_TE @ 12/11/2004 6:09:12 AM #
No disinformation? Let's see:

Quote 1: "PalmSource apparently believes it has found the cheapest, smallest, and fastest variant of Linux and will make Cobalt and its associated apps a skin"

No, PalmSource is making a Linux kernel an alternative to the proprietary kernel. The application-facing PalmOS layer remains the same, so applications are unaffected. All that is changed is the backend of the PalmOS layer.

Quote 2:" Porting the widely-known PalmOS apps to other platforms"

Why would they want to do this? And how does changing the kernel have any effect on the portability of the apps, when they have stated that current m68K apps will run on the new Linux/PalmOS.

Quote 3:"You just read it above: the operating system no longer matters to them."

The operating system clearly does matter - they are porting it across to Linux. What clearly doesn't matter is the kernel.

Quote 4:"They will port the core PalmOS apps to Windows Mobile."

How does the fact that PalmSource appears to be going to great lengths to make the new Linux-based system backwards-compatible mean that PalmSource is going to port its limited-functionality apps, which are a minor part of its product, to a competitor's platform?

I think the problem is that you have confused applications, operating systems and kernels. I'm not quite sure how someone who could make mistakes like that gets to post editorials on a major palm news site.

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
ardiri @ 12/11/2004 9:05:04 AM #
    It is amazing what a turmoil you've raised while having not the foggiest idea on what an operating system is.

:) its only raising a turmoil if you actually try to listen to what he has to say. over the years; i've seen mikecane post the most amount of crap anyone in the handheld community can post to forums - and, he hasn't got any clue about what he is talking about.. its always a laugh to see his "predictions".

i dont know why ryan posts this stuff; it is very degrading to the site - stuff like this kept inside the forums, or, mike should host his own site for posting his opinions.

i'm sure mike cane is a nice guy in real life; ryan got it right in the going back "story" he posted:

    "Mike Cane has been a vocal member of the mobile community"

but, we all need to sit back and realise - mike is just a USER of handhelds; any predictions he makes about the future/hardware really have no justification. he's wrong about cobalt, he's wrong about the linux migration.. why? because he doesn't understand how the tech industry functions.

i got an email from two palmsource people asking me for my opinion about the announcement of the linux kernel dicussions - i will post my reply here:


    deep down, it should not change the user experience
    (the classic KISS concept) - but, using a stronger underlying
    kernel for task handling, data management is a great move.

    the linux kernel is very stable; and, configurable. it used
    to run on old 386 machines without any problem (low ram, cpu).

    my main concern would be binary compatability with 68k and
    ARM code; but, using the new kernel will open up many
    possibilities that haven't been possible so far. linux has grown so much since its conception back in the early 1990's - having palmsource write everything from scratch is a waste of time/money.

keep in mind the "key" point - it wont change the user experience with the device; a kernel is an underlying component of the device - it doesn't matter if its running garnet, cobalt or linux. it may matter to developers (new API's etc), but since mike cane isn't a developer - i dont see any points he makes about these things valid. if palmsource does it right - it wont be any different at all between the devices.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:15:27 AM #
Ah, of course ardiri comes out of the woodwork. And it's fun to click on the new names who are now posting here. I see some joined specifically to comment on *this* piece (which I called "Opinion" and Ryan posted as "Editorial" -- and I did ask him to switch it back!) -- for you newcomers, why haven't you been here before? Raised some hackles, or is it only now that you have something to grace us with your presence.

I stand by what I said. All of you will see soon enough.

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
ben_TE @ 12/11/2004 10:30:52 AM #
mike, you can mock the people commenting, but the basic point remains: you haven't answered any of their points. You have a PalmSource developer saying you haven't understood what PalmSource is doing. You haven't cleared up the confusion between operating system and kernel in the article. You haven't commented on the fact that this will be the fourth kernel for PalmOS, and the previous changes didn't herald a change in Palm[Source|One]'s porting policy.

All you have said is "just wait and see" without clearing up any of the confusion or misinformation in the article.

>So, WTF are they *BUYING* CMS if all this stuff is allegedly
>"free"? And if you don't think they've effectively ditched Cobalt
>and made it a skin, just keep watching. You'll eventually be
>convinced.

This is the funniest quote which most clearly shows your lack of understanding. What Linux provides for free is a huge amount: the basic stuff is all there and working. That's hundreds of thousands of developer-hours of work for free.

However, it will need tweaking for the Palm. New device drivers, execute-in-place (probably), testing, porting PalmOS - these will all take time and expertise. That's presumably why they have bought CMS, as they appear to bring expertise on Linux handheld devices to the table.

Rantings, Ravings, Drivel, Sex, Lies and Videotape.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 6:05:00 PM #
Mike Cane:

You obviously have ABSOLUTELY no technical computer knowledge, whatsoever.

You don't appear to know much about hardware or software either.

It is inappropriate for you to be posting ARTICLES full of confused misinformation at Palminfocenter. Newbies can blow off your rabid comments, but when they see an article by you they may mistakenly feel you have some credibility. You have none.

The only function I see your article serving is the discussion it created, interestingly drawing panicked PalmSource developers/supporters out ouf the woodwork in an effort to defend their (now-shaky) position. PalmSource s c r e w e d up in many ways, but you're incapable of understanding exactly how.

Keep posting Mike. Every word you type underscores your ignorance. I'd suggest you spend a couple days reading some basic computer books and maybe Gavn Maxwell's Palm programming book before you end up putting your foot even further (completely?) into your mouth.

Please don't take this as an insult, Mike. It's honest advice.

TVoR




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
ardiri @ 12/12/2004 7:31:33 AM #
    Ah, of course ardiri comes out of the woodwork

of course i do.

hell, i'm even sending this message from a singapore airline lounge. i just had to come back and see how you would react. where is the fun it in any other way?

as for your points, you need to sometimes sit back and really try to understand what is going on before you go mouthing off what you think is right etc etc.. its very unprofessional, and - every time you post; you just make yourself look more and more stupid.

i would definately welcome your thoughts and opinions if you put the right amount of time to justify all your thoughts and opinions rather than just blant on about them. like, what does palmsource using linux mean to the user? pretty much nothing. are you really in a position to comment on this - seeing, you are just a user of palmos hardware?

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

Aaron Ardiri: Damning with faint praise?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 1:45:54 PM #
i got an email from two palmsource people asking me for my opinion about the announcement of the linux kernel dicussions - i will post my reply here:

deep down, it should not change the user experience
(the classic KISS concept) - but, using a stronger underlying
kernel for task handling, data management is a great move.

the linux kernel is very stable; and, configurable. it used
to run on old 386 machines without any problem (low ram, cpu).

my main concern would be binary compatability with 68k and
ARM code; but, using the new kernel will open up many
possibilities that haven't been possible so far. linux has grown so much since its conception back in the early 1990's - having palmsource write everything from scratch is a waste of time/money.


keep in mind the "key" point - it wont change the user experience with the device; a kernel is an underlying component of the device - it doesn't matter if its running garnet, cobalt or linux. it may matter to developers (new API's etc), but since mike cane isn't a developer - i dont see any points he makes about these things valid. if palmsource does it right - it wont be any different at all between the devices.

Aaron, I believe everyone seems to be glossing over how much work needs to be done to create PalmLinux and whether or not PalmSource has the engineers sk!LL3d enough to get the job done. Theory is great, but the Devil is in the details. And as you're only too well aware, Palm/PalmSource doesn't exactly have a good history re: attention to details. The second issue is TIME. Plan B (9?) from Outer Mongolia can't even start in full swing for a few months until the purchase of the Chinese Cavalry is complete. If the kernel is GPLed, maybe PalmSource can start playing around with it now, but I doubt they currently have more than a handful of engineers qualified to properly extend a true Linux kernel. If that's the case, PalmSource is essentially putting their fate in the hands of a startup company, China MobileSoft Limited. I don't see this as A Good Thing.

This all sounds like a panicked Coach Nagel calling for a "Hail Mary" pass on the last play of the game. It appears that either no one at Palm is responsible for corporate strategy/competitive planning or they don't know what the he11 they're doing. Just as many diehard Palm users have left the platform in disgust in recent months, I think a lot of developers are now going to start looking at porting their skillsets to other platforms. Looks like you made a wise choice when you stopped focusing on PalmOS a few years ago. Was that because you realized chaos was about to descend on PalmOS?

Try not to get arrested in Singapore.

;-)


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
killah fury @ 12/12/2004 2:36:30 PM #
I wish PalmInfoCenter would NOT post articles written by Mike Cane who plainly does not know anything about the tech industry at all. This piece he has written makes little sense and he contradicts himself; and still hasn't answered the questions put to him in response to this mindless drivel.

I'd much rather see editorial written by someone with a greater knowledge of the industry, the hardware and the Palm OS operating system, such as Aaron Ardiri.

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
sdf @ 12/12/2004 9:28:31 PM #
I am a software developer as well. Let me chime in a "me too" here -- I find Mike Cane's "article" full of disinformation, errornous assumptions, and crazy theories presented as hard facts. If I read another article posted here by him it will be my last visit.

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
atrizzah @ 12/12/2004 11:14:57 PM #
I agree with most of the above, and I also think that it is disgrace to the normally great PIC for them to post stories from a person who is so often blatantly unprofessional, immature, and disrespectful in his conduct on said site.

Peace Out
Alan
RE: Talk about putting it on the line
a3 @ 12/13/2004 9:17:35 AM #
Most of the things explained above are far beyond my understanding, but there is one thing I can put my two cents on: Ryan should manage this site in a far more serious way. Any usual reader knows how disrispectful (and childish if I may add) are some of Mike Cane's posts. Allowing those posts is one thing, but posting his opinion as an editorial? That is far beyond what I expect from the palm site where I have seen some of Palm top executives posting!

Ryan, it does not matter if Mike is a very good friend of yours, Palminfocenter has grown a lot so you must take good care of it to keep it that way.

____________________________________________________
Current fan of a 480x640 tablet shaped Palm with built in BT+Wifi for less than US$400

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
Picard @ 12/13/2004 7:53:26 PM #
There just is no quality of Palminfocenter anymore.

I criticize Mike Cane, and the wonderful creator of this website Mr. Ryan of San Diego, California ERASES my message. Especially when I pointed out that Palm OS has had 3 kernels before this new Linux one, and because Mike is not a PDA expert

No wonder Ed Hardy ran away to Brighthand! I suppose Brighthand will be our only source for PDA information now. At least their servers can handle a messageboard

PIC -----> Censorship of messages, promoting non-PDA experts opinions, tolerating dimwitted responses from Mike and Gekko (AKA Ska)

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
G M Fude @ 12/13/2004 9:45:58 PM #
"Gekko AKA ska" is one of the most ludicrous ideas I've ever seen in a news comments post. Someone else on the temporarily defunct forums (maybe the same person) also accused him of being a PPC troll. Yet if you READ his posts you will find there are few here more passionate about Palm OS than Gekko. If he sounds agro at times, it's probably just through frustration at the changes (or lack of changes) at Palm. I know I feel the same way. They won't even give me a simple driver for my mobile phone.

Picard, you say in other posts on this news item that PIC should be boycotted. Your choice, man... do it. Lead the way.

RE: Talk about putting it on the line
Admin @ 12/14/2004 6:48:06 AM #
You are right buddy. I let my quality control staff go, budget cutbacks, fact of life just look at what a great job NASA did by letting go of that sean o guy
RE: Talk about putting it on the line
Strider_mt2k @ 12/14/2004 8:39:02 AM #
Ryan,

Don't look at it that way.
NASA used to be the one government administration with some respectability.
Those days are gone.
Even I can't get behind them when it comes to manned flight, and I was a NASA fanboy!


Think more along the lines of Burt Rutan's crew over at Scaled Composites. The little guys that could.

And did!

Hang in there buddy.



RE: Talk about putting it on the line
RhinoSteve @ 12/14/2004 12:01:00 PM #
Well Mike, you put it on the line. The verdict -- you lose! I don't value your opinon anymore. My advise is to publish a retraction of this article to salvage your reputation and get new pen name.


Editorial: The Last Laugh!
twrock @ 12/14/2004 7:17:52 PM #
(The following is an "editorial" by sometimes PIC reader twrock. Although twrock has no credentials whatsoever to be writing such drivel, he's going to do so anyway in the outside chance he might somehow end up looking like he actually knew something. And since wild speculation without any proper basis is in fashion at the moment, he thought he'd give his hand a shot at it.)

Editorial: The Last Laugh! (copyright twrock, 2006)

A funny thing is going to happen four to six months from now: Mike Cane is going to have the last laugh. I know some of you will find this hard to believe, but it is true. The reason will not matter; the only important part for you to know is that four to six months from now Mike is going to have a whopper of an "I-told-you-so."

I'm telling you, it's going to happen. Trust me. I know things.

Recently Mike Cane got some "insider" information from someone about something that will happen in the next "4-6 months." To protect my sources, I can't tell you what it was, but trust me, it was a juicy tidbit. It was just the kind of information that could make a guy look really smart if he could "predict" it would happen four to six months prior. Unfortunately, he didn't know what to make of it and certainly didn't know why it was going to happen. So he started to develop a theory to answer those questions. But since he didn't have a sufficient understanding of the systems involved (particularly OS's), his theory turned out to be baseless. But that only mattered because there are enough people who did have that understanding and pointed out the flaws in Mike's theory. But have no fear. Four to six month from now he will be vindicated, and those of you who mocked him are going to have to eat crow.

At the moment, Mike looks like he doesn't have a clue. BUT, he will have the last laugh four to six months from now when his "conclusions" actually come true. Oh to be sure, someone will try to point out that his conclusions were a non sequitur, but it will be too late. Mike will be basking in his glory, having the last laugh.

(That's my line, and I'm sticking to it. Don't even think of trying to convince me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I do, and you'll see... four to six months from now.)

Great! No guilt in switching!

Wolfgard @ 12/10/2004 2:24:23 PM #
At last, I can get my O2 XDAIIs (when I get the cash) without feeling guilty about ditching palmOS. Hello WinMob, goodbye POS. And I doubt I'll be sticking with the 'new' POS, I've never been a fanboy of Linux anyway. Plus, we'll never know how 'stable' the Linux kernel will be until it comes out. Who knows, it might be less stable compared to WinMob when multitasking processes! I'd rather take my chances on a proven OS than an unproven one.

pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55 & Handera 330
RE: Great! No guilt in switching!
rsc1000 @ 12/11/2004 12:23:14 PM #
You are not taking this article seriously!??!?! Just read the other comments!!! Mike Cane doesn't know what he is talking about. Its embarassing really - he doesnt know what a kernal is or what they are doing here! Why does this change anything for you? To users - this will still be palm OS (if you were looking forward to Cobolt, then all of features in Cobolt will still be in this).

RE: Great! No guilt in switching!
Wollombi @ 12/12/2004 10:15:36 AM #
>>"I'd rather take my chances on a proven OS than an unproven one."<<

So...you'll be sticking with PalmOS after all? Especially on a kernel that's been proven 1000 times more stable than anything MS has put out since DOS (which they didn't really develop)?

More corporations use Unix/Linux than you imagine. The reason you never really hear about it is the community doesn't talk about it enough, and because you never hear about Linux servers crashing (because it's so rare....I've seen Linux servers literally run for years w/out requiring a reboot). EVERYONE has something to say about the problems with Windows, making it seem even more dominant than it really is. Not that MS hasn't dominated the desktop world (they have for the most part), and taken a significant server market share, but they don't own the arena yet, not by a long shot. Nor do they "own" the mobile arena. Far from it, which is why you see all the contortions/gyrations out of Redmond right now to have a stable, portable OS. Unfortunately, they've taken a poor approach to it, trying to fit a desktop OS into mobile devices, which creates a lot of overhead and a generally frustrating user experience, just like on your Windoze desktop.

Hey...just my $0.02. =)

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Great! No guilt in switching!
Wolfgard @ 12/12/2004 10:49:23 AM #
Lol...I wasn't that serious when I made that post. But, the linux kernel will be totally new, hence unproven yet. And with every new kernel, especially one that handles multitasking/multithreading, we should expect some level of teething problems assoctiated with it. It'll no doubt be different from the previous POS (I remember reading that older programs will require an 'emulator' of some sort to work) so previous 'stable OS' claims can't be used with the linux version.

Btw, WinMob isn't that 'unstable' as most claim. I've seen people using it for weeks without ever needing to reset the device. I'm no WinMob fan, always prefered POS's simplicity since OS3's days, but WinMob has definately evolved over the years. If I have to switch, well... I wouldn't mind it at all. Especially since their devices are better in build quality and feature packed.


pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55 & Handera 330

Interesting Read

twizza @ 12/10/2004 2:28:52 PM #
Glad to get a good read from you Mike. I look forward to comparing your article here to the soon to come on from me at BargainPDA. I think we look at things the same way, I just tend to be less the sky is falling abuot it.

Very interesting still. PalmOS has to go somewhere. Proverbs 29:18 says that where there is no vision, people perish. I wonder if the floundering in the PalmOS world is due to the lack of vision for a season.

antoinerjwright.com

RE: Interesting Read
LiveFaith @ 12/10/2004 3:50:24 PM #
Wow, that has to be the longest running collection of text I've seen from you without some cussin'. I'm impressed.

Ryan, give him the mic more often ... it's reforming him. :-D

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Interesting Read
Strider_mt2k @ 12/11/2004 9:24:00 AM #
Quite the opposie.

Don't reward foolish behavior with credibility.

Very big misunderstanding

hackbod @ 12/10/2004 2:38:39 PM #
"The third shoe to drop was the bombshell of Cobalt basically becoming a skin for a variant of Linux!"

PalmOS for Linux will be a "skin for a variant of Linux" as much as MacOS X is a "skin for a variant of Mach". It's the same approach.

You have to realize, we are talking about the Linux KERNEL. This is not the thing that users see. It is, by and large, not the thing that developers code against. It is a very small part of the "platform". The vast majority of the platform -- the parts that we see as our core value -- is outside of the kernel. We are not saying "the operating system no longer matters to us". We are saying "the kernel is not a core value of our platform".

Keep in mind that Linux would be the -fouth- kernel PalmOS runs on during its lifetime. Did you know about the other three? Do you care?

As far as having the "core apps" running on PocketPC, I think it is pretty unlikely to happen. Our applications are built on top of our platform, which is not just going to magically run on PocketPC. Porting it to Linux is going to be enough work in itself, and it seems quite unlikely to me that Microsoft will give us enough access to their kernel for us to port our platform to it. :)


--
Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

RE: Very big misunderstanding
twizza @ 12/10/2004 3:17:56 PM #
Diane, you make an good bit of clarity there. I think that in some ways, people have missed over the fact that PS would be using the Linux kernel rather than the full OS. Part of that is understanding programming and development, which not too many people do. Some only know Linux from an alternative point of view and that lends to more of that "sky is falling" mentality.

I know that it wasn't outlined (except in the statement about there being lower cost devices that would be able to be made), but what other benefits does having a Linux kernel have to the PalmOS?

antoinerjwright.com

RE: Very big misunderstanding
Bostonnerd @ 12/10/2004 3:36:49 PM #
Diane;
Okay....other then giving the PalmSource Marketing department multiple climaxes, what exactly is the point of the Linux Kernel?

* You're going to use an Open Source Kernel and layer a proprietary closed code abstraction layer on top of it. What’s the point...does the world really need another embedded RTOS? Motorola and others have spend enormous amounts on Linux for mobile. Have you seen any results? Hmmmm...You've already recouped (I would hope) R&D on Garnett a zillion years ago. You think the margins are going to be better with the new "Pinux"?

* Your Sales weenies are drooling over all the potential sales in China. The Chinese carriers will buy it, as long as its impossbly cheap or free :). I have a vision of ever shrinking margins in your future.

* Many tech companies have had to back way out of the China market due to the constant (and un-prosecuted) IP rip-offs. How long do you think it will take for clones to be sold? My guess is as soon as the QA folks make exit criteria :)


RE: Very big misunderstanding
tompi @ 12/10/2004 4:06:16 PM #
"What’s the point...does the world really need another embedded RTOS? Motorola and others have spend enormous amounts on Linux for mobile. Have you seen any results"

You bet. Linux is everywhere in embedded and mobile device already. You probably have several Linux devices in your home and office.

Linux is by far the safest bet for any company building embedded and mobile devices right now. The real question is whether there are going to be any other embedded operating systems a few years from now.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
Cikub @ 12/10/2004 4:09:36 PM #
Unless I mis-read the press releases, the point of using Linux is that it's better suited (and available) for running on cheap cell-phone hardware--not that it adds any special functionality.

Seems to me that Linux is a complete non-issue. The only interesting thing about tbis whole bug is that PalmSource wants to get itself onto more run-of-the-mill, inexpensive cell phones.

C

RE: Very big misunderstanding
relyons @ 12/10/2004 4:12:27 PM #
Dianne,

Your correction of Mike Cane's misunderstanding was accurate and concise.

It has no business here at Palminfocenter.com.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
Cikub @ 12/10/2004 4:12:47 PM #
By the way, Mike's editorial tells us little more than he has an interesting imagination. Porting the PalmOS interface to Windows Mobile is fun to think about but has no basis in reality. It will not happen.

C

RE: No misunderstanding
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 4:19:48 PM #
Unless I mis-read the press releases, the point of using Linux is that it's better suited (and available) for running on cheap cell-phone hardware--not that it adds any special functionality.

So why would Linux be a better choice than Cobalt? Is PalmSource admitting that Cobalt (or ant other current PalmOS version) is not scalable to inexpensive cellphones? INSANE.


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

drivers
tompi @ 12/10/2004 4:30:20 PM #
So why would Linux be a better choice than Cobalt?

Because Cobalt requires either Palm or hardware vendors to write drivers for devices and chipsets themselves. That takes time and money. It's probably why you don't see any Cobalt devices yet.

Linux, on the other hand, is so widely used that, vendors either already ship drivers, or the drivers are developed once and then shared.

If you had read the announcement, you'd know that, because Palm spelled it out in there for you.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
mikecane @ 12/10/2004 4:52:51 PM #
I am very rushed, so I just have time for a few lines (haven't been able to read anything past hackbod's comment) --

>>>As far as having the "core apps" running on PocketPC, I think it is pretty unlikely to happen.

Then Nagel & Company are the biggest collection of imbeciles this side of the dopes who ran both Commodore and Atari into the ground (remember *those* "leaders"?).

I see people have conflated two points. Let me be clearer on the PPC side of things: I am *not* stating Cobalt (or PalmNix or whatever the hell the name of the current mood is) is going to be ported to run on the WinMob kernal. Duh. I said the CORE APPS will be (whether you like it or not, hackbod; and you can choose not to dirty your hands with this task, I'm sure). Let's call the core apps:

1) Palm Calendar
2) Palm Contacts
3) Palm Tasks
4) Palm Memos

These would (or as I state, *will*) be ported to PPC and sold like any other 3rd-party app (ie, Pocket Informant). Except, if there are ANY ANY ANY brains AT ALL at PalmSource, they will be bundled with Palm Desktop and whatever else PS cares to throw in as, let's unimaginatively call it, "Palm Suite" or "PalmWorks."

Well, I'm sure MS is watching, and they are not complete dopes. They ALREADY understand what I'm saying. Do you? By offering such a package to PPC owners, the *per-suite price* would be HIGHER than what the hell PS could haggle out of a HARDWARE MAKER. What, do you think MS got into Word, Excel, et al, by accident? Go read up on what Simonyi told Gates & Co at the time. Simonyi is richer than Nagel will *ever* be -- and as the Father of MS Word -- actually has shipped product that's gotten in the hands of end-users. Et tu, Cobalt?

As I said, am rushed. More later.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
Texonite @ 12/10/2004 4:58:05 PM #
Dianne, that's not clear for me, will we be able to run some Linux apps on that OS? At least in something like Cobalt's Binder Shell (will we have that also?)

____________________
Future Online!
Sorry for my bad english :(
RE: Very big misunderstanding
Surur @ 12/10/2004 5:25:05 PM #
Mike, its been a few years since I used a Palm. Have the basic apps improved tremendously since then, such that people would pay more than $5 for them?

Compare this with pocketinformant, which does ALL that those 4 apps do, with plenty of features, and does it very stylishly. I haven't even looked at the bundles apps on my pocketpc for years.

What you suggest would turn PalmOne into 3rd tier pocketpc producer, and Palmsource into a small software house with crap apps. Competition would get rid of both very quickly.

Surur

RE: Very big misunderstanding
twalk @ 12/10/2004 5:25:36 PM #
Mike,

To be blunt, the biggest reason to not port to PPC, is that PPC won't even be around in 3 years. Just MS smartphone and XP's successor...

Why? Look at hardware trends compared to software requirements. If someone wanted to, they could make a <10oz PPC sized XP handheld for <$1000 right now. In 2 years that will be a 6oz XP handheld for <$500. (MS will make $70+ just off of XP on a handheld, but makes <$15 for PPC OS + Pocket Office, so they have a *huge* incentive to have this happen.)

In 2-3 years, PalmOS on PDAs would have to compete with XP. Having a linux kernal makes it more likely to succeed against it. It also means that the same PalmOS platform holds all up and down the product lineup, while MS has a development gap between XP & smartphone. (It also makes them better able to compete against Symbian.)


RE: Very big misunderstanding
twrock @ 12/10/2004 8:34:55 PM #
Bostennerd: "* Many tech companies have had to back way out of the China market due to the constant (and un-prosecuted) IP rip-offs. How long do you think it will take for clones to be sold? My guess is as soon as the QA folks make exit criteria :)"

Yeah, this one would worry me as well. Doing business in China is like trying to play fetch with a tiger. There's a completely different view of how things work in the Chinese world. PalmSource better have some very good and exceedingly loyal Chinese nationals working for them on that side of the pond.

Allow me to speak for Mistress Hackborn:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 10:25:40 PM #
Okay....other then giving the PalmSource Marketing department multiple climaxes, what exactly is the point of the Linux Kernel?

Linux = known entity, already has legitimacy + presence with businesses, appeals to anti-Microsoft crusaders

Vs.

PalmOS 6 = none of the above

* You're going to use an Open Source Kernel and layer a proprietary closed code abstraction layer on top of it. What’s the point...does the world really need another embedded RTOS? Motorola and others have spend enormous amounts on Linux for mobile. Have you seen any results? Hmmmm...You've already recouped (I would hope) R&D on Garnett a zillion years ago. You think the margins are going to be better with the new "Pinux"?

Who cares what the world "needs"? This is about finding ways for PalmSource to make its product appealing enough in order to generate sufficient sales to someday become profitable. Like a real business. PalmSource's accountants convinced the rocket scientists on the Board that selling 3 million $10 OS licenses per year is not as good as selling 15 million $5 OS licences per year. Go figure.

* Your Sales weenies are drooling over all the potential sales in China. The Chinese carriers will buy it, as long as its impossbly cheap or free :). I have a vision of ever shrinking margins in your future.

PalmSource will make it up on the volume.

* Many tech companies have had to back way out of the China market due to the constant (and un-prosecuted) IP rip-offs. How long do you think it will take for clones to be sold? My guess is as soon as the QA folks make exit criteria :)

Therein lies the rub. Just look what happened to Roy Horn (of "Siegfried & Roy").



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

PalmLinux... Coming soon in 2007!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 10:59:22 PM #
>>>So why would Linux be a better choice than Cobalt? Is PalmSource admitting that Cobalt (or any other current PalmOS version) is not scalable to inexpensive cellphones? INSANE.

Because Cobalt requires either Palm or hardware vendors to write drivers for devices and chipsets themselves. That takes time and money. It's probably why you don't see any Cobalt devices yet.

Linux, on the other hand, is so widely used that, vendors either already ship drivers, or the drivers are developed once and then shared.

If you had read the announcement, you'd know that, because Palm spelled it out in there for you.

Ummmmm.... tompi, are you new here? Is English your second language? Next time I'll use *SARCASM* flags to alert you... For the past three years I've said that Palm needed to migrate to a UNIX-based OS if it wanted to survive.

Unfortunately, nepotism rules at Palm, resulting in an influx of unemployed Be engineers. These BRAINIACS are the ones responsible for PalmSource's current (check) position. Instead of buying a 99 cent cake mix from the grocery store, the Be engineers insisted on growing their own organic flour, eggs from the finest pampered free range chickens, organic butter derived from happy, hormone and antibiotic-free cows, all mixed by a flaming French pastry chef named Pépé Gassee. Too bad they didn't have time to find some organic cane sugar, organic baking soda, organic salt, or natural spring water. (checkmate)



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 1:49:26 AM #
What you suggest would turn PalmOne into 3rd tier pocketpc producer, and Palmsource into a small software house with crap apps. Competition would get rid of both very quickly.

Well said. This "editorial" is beyond absurd.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Diane, thanks for clarification
Cheetah @ 12/11/2004 3:08:34 AM #
I understand your point and analogy to Mac OSX.

I also understand Mike's point on PalmSuite.

Very interesting developments anyway you look at it, although one conclusion seems to be that Colbart got de-railed at some point.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
ben_TE @ 12/11/2004 4:57:08 AM #
Mike: When talking about a subject, it helps if you can spell the important nouns. K-E-R-N-*E*-L.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
Bostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 7:57:40 AM #
"You bet. Linux is everywhere in embedded and mobile device already. You probably have several Linux devices in your home and office."
Tompi;

Actually, my lab (office) has every Linux server OS variant on the market (along with every GA HPUX, AIX, Solaris, and Msoft systems). As to embedded applications, Wind River and Msoft still rule that area, although Linux is beginning to make some headway. For mobile device applications Linux is still far from the embeddded system of choice. As I stated, companies such as Motorola and DoCoMo have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in developing Linux embedded Kernels for mobile applications with little to show for it. What makes you think that a very under capitalized PalmSource is going to succeed? Linux has its own set of problems/issues relating to driver development (among other things) that can seriously gate its use in the mobile space.

That being said, I'm more tacticly interested in the stagnation of the Palm written layer. The current Palm OS is held together by bubble gum and bandaids. The core PIM apps are ancient and creaking under the strain. Both Newton and Psion would still stack up well against it (and in many cases surpass it), even today. With PalmSource now shifting its resources to "Pinux", the next 12 months (if not longer) will consist of sustaining the existing code base and kludging together some minor additional feature/function.

So were does that leave PalmOne, while PalmSource is off chasing the "Pinux" rainbow? Either they diversify their Kernel, continue to hack OS5, or sit back and wait for PalmSource to execute (the track record on this one isn't encouraging). Mike C. does indeed have a valid agument that they are seriously considering moving in other directions.



RE: Very big misunderstanding
Bostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 9:10:09 AM #
<

Vs.

PalmOS 6 = none of the above>>

While somewhat true in the Enterprise Server space, it doesn't hold as much weight in the embedded market. Do you really think a Cell carrier cares? Do you think anyone cares that Cisco uses Wind River for their RTOS or that the majority of ATMs use Msoft XP Embedded? I don't think that's on the list of RFP questions for the buyer.

<>

That assumes that the market opportunities exist for "Pinux" at that level. If the future is in smartphones and not PDAs, there are many companies in Asia that can throw together a PIM layer. Do you think that all of those millions of potential Chinese purchasers care about Outlook syncs??? Having a Linux Kernel vs "whatever" doesn't make the device any more or less appealing to either an end user or carrier. It probably is at the bottom of the list.

<>
Maybe



RE: Very big misunderstanding
Bostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 9:27:53 AM #
Sorry about that VOR, let's try again....

"Linux = known entity, already has legitimacy + presence with businesses, appeals to anti-Microsoft crusaders
Vs.
PalmOS 6 = none of the above"

While somewhat true in the Enterprise Server space, it doesn't hold as much weight in the embedded market. Do you really think a Cell carrier cares? Do you think anyone cares that Cisco uses Wind River for their RTOS or that the majority of ATMs use Msoft XP Embedded? I don't think that's on the list of RFP questions for the buyer.

"Who cares what the world "needs"? This is about finding ways for PalmSource to make its product appealing enough in order to generate sufficient sales to someday become profitable. Like a real business. PalmSource's accountants convinced the rocket scientists on the Board that selling 3 million $10 OS licenses per year is not as good as selling 15 million $5 OS licences per year. Go figure."


That assumes that the market opportunities exist for "Pinux" at that level. If the future is in smartphones and not PDAs, there are many companies in Asia that can throw together a PIM layer. Do you think that all of those millions of potential Chinese purchasers care about Outlook syncs??? Having a Linux Kernel vs "whatever" doesn't make the device any more or less appealing to either an end user or carrier. It probably is at the bottom of the list.

"PalmSource will make it up on the volume."

Maybe...



RE: Very big misunderstanding
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:22:36 AM #
Oh this is some great stuff here (except, as usual, that nitwit who styles himself as a Voice of something or other).

Spelling: I did ask Ryan to run it through a spellcheck. He didn't. For the fellow who caught "kernal," I guess you're used to tech terms only, because the biggest whopper there is actually "collosus."

Those of you who think this isn't just a skin (hell, maybe I should have downgraded it to a *Band-Aid*!), will eventually come around to my way of thinking; I don't give a damn how much coding you've done or what degrees you have. You Will See.

And, yes, I *have* tried Pocket Informant. *All* PPC PIMs -- from MS and their assorted third-parties (free, share, or outright pay) -- are abominations compared to the ease of entry of the "ancient" POS core apps.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
Bostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 10:37:20 AM #
"And, yes, I *have* tried Pocket Informant. *All* PPC PIMs -- from MS and their assorted third-parties (free, share, or outright pay) -- are abominations compared to the ease of entry of the "ancient" POS core apps."

Ease of entry does not necessarily equate to suitibility or usefulness. For those of us that live with Outlook in a corporate environment (or Lotus groupware), the lack of support for groupware features is a major impediment. From the lack of Outlook field support, to the inability to see meeting attendees, the Palm PIM just doesn't hunt in the corporate environment (yes I know about the "shrink wrapped" alternatives)...


RE: Very big misunderstanding
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 11:06:08 AM #
Is the iPod a corporate product? I guess it must fail by your standards, then. I stated elsewhere here: Not everyone uses or wants to use Outlook. Palm Desktop can compete with it for *everyday people*. Like, say, the current cellphone users of China (which, although cited as being larger than that of our entire population in the US, can't *all* be corporate workers!).

iPod defined downloadble music for everyday people. Palm Desktop can do it for PIM for everyday people.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
Bostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 11:20:36 AM #
Well, in that case, they'd better get busy porting it to Miracle Linux :). Have you ever been to China Mike? Outside of a few cities, a home PC is at the bottom of the average workers wish list. At best, the cellphone *is* the computer for most of these people. Large Chinese multinational companies (Bank of China, China Air, etc) have the same requirements as any other corporate type, be it the US or Europe.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
feranick @ 12/11/2004 2:20:52 PM #
By the way it's spelled "Cobalt" not "Cobolt"

Sorry of being picky, but this is such amusing thread, where everybody seems to know everything about everything.

PalmOS 6: AWOL. PalmOS 5: shot up, bloody, alone, surrounded
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 6:24:50 PM #
That being said, I'm more tacticly interested in the stagnation of the Palm written layer. The current Palm OS is held together by bubble gum and bandaids. The core PIM apps are ancient and creaking under the strain. Both Newton and Psion would still stack up well against it (and in many cases surpass it), even today. With PalmSource now shifting its resources to "Pinux", the next 12 months (if not longer) will consist of sustaining the existing code base and kludging together some minor additional feature/function.

So were does that leave PalmOne, while PalmSource is off chasing the "Pinux" rainbow? Either they diversify their Kernel, continue to hack OS5, or sit back and wait for PalmSource to execute (the track record on this one isn't encouraging).


Historically, Palm was too lazy and incompetent to evolve the OS and PIM apps. The excuse given from 1999 to 2004 was that this "simplicity" (simple mindedness?) was "The Zen of Palm". Or that they wanted to leave it up to 3rd party developers to provide more advanced solutions. Or that they needed to keep things simple to ensure data compatibility with 3rd party developers. It's not a bug, it's a feature! was the sad refrain. Fast forward to 2004: Decrepit PalmOS 5 alone on the battlefield, trying to take on looming tanks with its trusty bow and arrow. Hacked and patched to a truly stunning degree (Handspring's Treo 600 OS work is particularly impressive, in my opinion), held together with duct tape, Band Aids, bubble gum, Krazy Glue, twine and carabiners. Given PalmSource's arrogant response to developers of PIM replacement apps that were horribly broken by Palm's silly new PIM apps, Palm never really gave a rat's a$$ about developers. So poor PalmOS 5 keeps screaming "Where are the reinforcements!!!" PalmOS 6 is still missing *not* in action, presumably still on R & R in lovely Sunnyvale, California. PalmOS 5 is starting to get shot up "real bad" (see the multitude of Tungsten 5 OS and Treo 650 bugs and NAND Flash disasters as Exhibit 1) and still no sign of Cobalt. Some say Cobalt may have gone going AWOL. But the recruiters are trying to sing up a new prospect that may be able to provide some help in two or 3 years. MAYBE.

PalmOS 5 can continue to support devices for the next two years if PalmSource gives it adequate resources. Right now, PalmOS 5 is treated as a ba$tard child compared to the Be-derived "Golden Child", PalmOS 6. PalmOS 5 engineers need to be given more help and freed from the cramped dungeon the poor junior codemonkeys were locked in soon after the Holy Be engineers arrived.

Remember, PalmLinux is VAPORWARE. Talking about it doesn't make it exist in the lab or, more importantly, on devices. For that matter, for all intents and purposes, until consumers can buy real PalmOS 6 devices, PalmOS 6 is also vaporware.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
tompi @ 12/11/2004 8:38:02 PM #
As to embedded applications, Wind River and Msoft still rule that area, although Linux is beginning to make some headway.

Microsoft has never "ruled" the embedded OS area. And, as you may have noticed, WindRiver is shipping Eclipse and Linux as well now.

As I stated, companies such as Motorola and DoCoMo have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in developing Linux embedded Kernels for mobile applications with little to show for it.

Yes, you keep stating that, but you don't provide any data. I don't know how much money Motorola has invested in Linux. They also invested money in porting Windows to PPC, and you can tell where that went. The fact that Motorola screws up tells you something about Motorola, not what they screw up on. And with all that, they are actually shipping Linux-based phones and embedded devices.

What makes you think that a very under capitalized PalmSource is going to succeed?

If Axis and Linksys manage to build entire, successful product lines around it, PalmSource should have not trouble with it.

Linux has its own set of problems/issues relating to driver development (among other things) that can seriously gate its use in the mobile space.

Again, those are your unsubstantiated assertions. I claim that I don't see any more problems with Linux driver development than with other common operating systems. And because drivers are shared within the Linux community in source form, the need to develop derivers is greatly reduced anyway.

That being said, I'm more tacticly interested in the stagnation of the Palm written layer. The current Palm OS is held together by bubble gum and bandaids. The core PIM apps are ancient and creaking under the strain.

Yes. And Palm is addressing that in PalmOS 6. All it needs is a portable kernel that's acceptable to hardware vendors. Palm's proprietary kernel is not, Linux probably will be.

Mike C. does indeed have a valid agument that they are seriously considering moving in other directions.

Microsoft has always made it clear that branding is very important to them and they won't Palm replace PocketPC's user interface with a Palm-proprietary layer. Yuo will see Microsoft apps on your PPC when you start it up, whether you want them or not. PalmSource's near-term future is as a vendor of embedded user interfaces that sit on top of commodity kernels. If they play their cards right, they can do fairly well in that space for about 5 years until that software becomes commoditized. Then, they need to figure out something else.


RE: Very big misunderstanding
tompi @ 12/12/2004 1:17:35 PM #
Ummmmm.... tompi, are you new here? Is English your second language? Next time I'll use *SARCASM* flags to alert you...

Maybe English isn't your first language or maybe you are new to discussion forums, but that is exactly what you have to do.

For the past three years I've said that Palm needed to migrate to a UNIX-based OS if it wanted to survive.

Well, how nice for you. But I have no idea who you are, nor is anybody going to do a lot of background research on you before responding. In on-line forums, your posts need to be as self-contained and unambiguous as possible. If you are relying on people to know who you are in order to interpret your statements, you are doing something wrong.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
RhinoSteve @ 12/12/2004 1:21:28 PM #
I think a retraction or partial retraction is in order here. Mike, you totally screwed up on this one.
RE: Very big misunderstanding
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 2:43:23 PM #
Well, how nice for you. But I have no idea who you are, nor is anybody going to do a lot of background research on you before responding. In on-line forums, your posts need to be as self-contained and unambiguous as possible. If you are relying on people to know who you are in order to interpret your statements, you are doing something wrong.

Did you take your medicine today, tompi? Mother is going to be quite cross if you didn't.

Take care, Sweetie.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
hotpaw4 @ 12/12/2004 4:47:33 PM #
someone wrote:
> MacOS X is a "skin for a variant of Mach".

I prefer to think of NextStep or Darwin as a BSD Unix kernel variant on top of a Mach micro-kernel. And MacOS X Carbon/Cocoa "skins" Apple's version of Darwin. (A Nit, of course.)


Why would anyone WANT to buy the core apps on PPC?
dsaroff @ 12/12/2004 5:37:25 PM #
Frankly, why would anyone want to buy the core apps on PPC? Are they any better than the core apps supplied with the PPC? I don't think so. I certainly wouldn't use them. Heck! I don't use them for my Palm. I use Tealphone, Datebk5, Docs2go.

I think PalmSource would create a product no one wants. Why I buy the Palm is stability and number of apps.

RE: Very big misunderstanding
hotpaw4 @ 12/12/2004 5:43:33 PM #
> I use Tealphone, Datebk5, ...

Tealphone, Datebk5 sit on top of databases of the built-in PalmOS apps and use the PalmOS GUI.



PalmOS is about APPS. If developers move to PPC, Palm's dead
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 6:50:09 PM #
Tealphone, Datebk5 sit on top of databases of the built-in PalmOS apps and use the PalmOS GUI.

His point is that Palm's simplistic main PIM apps would not be competitive if offered as standalone 3rd party apps for PPC. There are already many PIM replacement apps for PPC. It's highly unlikely that many PPC users would be interested in purchasing a port of Palm's PIM apps. On the other hand, I'm sure there would/will be a lot of interest if apps like DateBk5, TealPhone, Documents To Go, etc are ported. (And they can be.) This should be Palm's worst nightmare: pi$$ off enough developers like DateBk5's author, CES Dewar to the point that they abandon the Palm platform and start coding exclusively for PPC. That would be the kiss of death for Palm.

I'm amazed that Microsoft hasn't offered the creme de la creme PalmOS developers some major incentives to switch to PPC. Palm's much-touted app library advantage is now much less of a factor than it was as recently as in 2002. Convince a few more people like the DateBk5 author, TealPoint, etc to join others like Astraware already coding for PPC and suddenly Palm's app advantage disappears. Remarkably, Palm's recent behaviour has shown not much more than thinly-veiled contempt towards developers. The DateBk5 author and many others are not impressed.

Something's rotten in the state of PalmSource™


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Palm is a sinking ship.....

Khris @ 12/10/2004 2:58:03 PM #
....and I'm glad I made the jump to Windows Mobile. My Dell Axim x50v blows away ANY Palm device out there (not even because it has a 640x480 vga screen).

*waves goodbye to Palm*

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
just_little_me @ 12/10/2004 4:03:06 PM #
Well then what the **** are you doing here...? Trolling is what... because you can't WAVE goodbye... if you seriously were over Palm OS you wouldn't be here...

Now bugger off and annoy someone else you dipsh*t...!


JLM.

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
mikecane @ 12/10/2004 5:02:08 PM #
Now, now. Treat them well. They *will* be back. If Nagel doesn't screw it all up...

Come back for what?
twrock @ 12/10/2004 8:07:48 PM #
Because they played around with the Palm core apps on a PPC and thought they wanted to migrate down to the company that wrote them? Is it somehow in your view that the "core apps" are all that compelling? Help me understand this one.

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Khris @ 12/10/2004 8:38:27 PM #
Hey just little me.....how about you take your palm device, set several vibrating alarms, and shove it up your A$$!!

If you can't handle someone criticizing your precious Palm, you're in the wrong place. perhaps I wasn't informed that I wasn't allowed to come here now that I've bought a Windows Mobile devide.

While you're trying to surf the web with your 320x480 (if you even have something beyond 320x320), I'll enjoy my 640x480 screen resolution surfing the web via wi-fi which gets rendered properly via style sheets. I'll also multi-task while surfing to do countless other tasks, none of which get interrupted to start a new one.....try that with your Palm.

I've owned SEVERAL Palm devices, and I've also owned a PPC in the past (which at the time I wasn't happy with and came back to Palm). Palm is slowly dying, and this is a last ditch effort for them to grasp on to their dwindling market share.

Good luck!

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:27:46 AM #
>>>Because they played around with the Palm core apps on a PPC and thought they wanted to migrate down to the company that wrote them? Is it somehow in your view that the "core apps" are all that compelling?

You'll have to rephrase that for me to better understand what you're asking.

Anyone who has been a hard-core user of the POS core apps and then tries the MS PPC core apps can't get away from what a thoughtless, inconsistent, stupid, and ill-designed mess the PPC core apps are (I'm talking about the 4 PIMs that palmOne renamed in their, uh, honor). And all the "enhancements" available from other sources are even worse.

Two points:

1) The PPC core apps are made to work with Outlook. Bulletin: Not everyone uses OL or *wants* to use OL. Palm Desktop can compete against it. PD is made for human beings, not corporate types who are used to the Corporate Way of doing things (which is essentially Top-Down militaristic follow-orders-or-else-and-this-is-the-way-we-do-it).

2) iTunes. Look at how Apple has effectively squashed MS's amibitions in the downloadable-music space by porting one of their key Mac apps to Windows.

3) Hello! What was once *Palm Reader* was ported to PPC. (Not that that did them any real damned good; MS Reader still rules for two reasons: a) it is actually better suited to *readers*, and b) MS will allow anyone to create ebooks for it and distribute *jillions* of them for FREE!)

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Bostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 11:12:01 AM #
"1) The PPC core apps are made to work with Outlook. Bulletin: Not everyone uses OL or *wants* to use OL. Palm Desktop can compete against it. PD is made for human beings, not corporate types who are used to the Corporate Way of doing things (which is essentially Top-Down militaristic follow-orders-or-else-and-this-is-the-way-we-do-it)."

This is too funny! And who do you think are buying those $600 Treos, the pizza delivery guy?? I'm spending this kind of money for a business tool, not a Happy Meal(tm) toy. And, as a business tool, it had better $%^& well provide full support for Outlook or Lotus.



RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
jackl @ 12/11/2004 2:13:21 PM #
Something can provide "full support" (and does) for those folks who actually like and use Outlook. No one is agguing against that, or syaing a product which *doesn't* interface with Outlook is viable in the corp. market.

We shouldn't be forced to use or sync with Outlook however. I don't use Outlook as my primary PIM, although I read company mail on it's e-mail function.

I primarily stick with Palm because it *doesn't* require integration with Outlook but has a much more efficient desktop and palmtop UI.

My 0.02,


J


RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Surur @ 12/11/2004 2:54:47 PM #

How can you insult eReader so! Its brilliant, and has much more CONTENT available than Microsoft reader. THe DRM is MUCH better. It may be the best thing that ever came from Palm.

MS Reader may look nice, but its incredibly slow, and mainly it has no content. Give me eReader every day.

Regarding the Palm basic apps, the only reason entering appointments are cumbersome on a pocketpc is that there are so many options to chose from (and more categories even!) Maybe that negates the Zen of palm, but I personally like choice.

Surur

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
superdork @ 12/11/2004 11:06:30 PM #
Ironically and contrary to popular belief Windows Mobile is less integrated to Outlook than PalmOS. To be more correct the conduit bundled with PalmOS is more better integrated.
Ironically and contrary to popular belief Windows Mobile is less integrated with Excel and Word than Documents To Go bundled with most PalmOS PDAs.
Another beef I have with Windows Mobile devices is for god sake put a flip cover on your devices!!!!!!!
Both are great devices in their own right, but as far as organization goes the bland integrated PalmOS apps IMHO are better.

Flip cover
twrock @ 12/12/2004 12:23:44 AM #
"Another beef I have with Windows Mobile devices is for god sake put a flip cover on your devices!!!!!!!"

The #2 thing I hate about my TT2: no flip cover. (The #1 thing being the slider.)

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Khris @ 12/12/2004 1:21:13 AM #
Why the hell would there need to be a flip cover on the device? Do you want to look like James Kirk with his communicator?

Get a slip case or other sort of case if you're concerned about protecting the screen.


Flip covers and other extraneous discussions
twrock @ 12/12/2004 2:25:44 AM #
Khris, this obviously came as a surprise to you, but there are some of us who actually prefer the functionality of a simple flip cover to having to slide the device out of a slip cover every time we want to use it. In general, I find almost every add-on case to be bulky to the degree I don't want to use it. A flip cover is a minimalistic approach to providing the screen protection I want. I don't know why that would be so hard to figure out, but I hope my explanation helps.

Put another way, I might ask you, "Why in the world would anyone want to run Windows on a handheld device?" I'm sure you have some explanation, so I wouldn't frame my question in a way that assumes you are somehow an idiot for choosing to do so.

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Surur @ 12/12/2004 5:44:27 AM #
Khris, having spent most of your time with Palm, you may not know about the demand for flip covers from the pocketpc community (which was only recently answered again by HP with one of their 2000 series handhelds, after abandoning the 56x series). Cases add bulk, and can make a slim unit double the size.

I believe the lack of (easily removable) flip covers are simple profiteering my OEM's, by increasing the wear and tear on our unit, so that we replace them more often. And if people think this is paranoid, how do we explain the ever changing sync ports at the bottom?

And to twrock "Why in the world would anyone want to run Windows on a handheld device?" soon the pocketpc community will say "Why in the world would anyone want to run Linux on a handheld device?" Its the same question, and the answer is that while there may be superficial resemblances, they are by far not the same as their big brother OS's

Surur

Surur

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Strider_mt2k @ 12/12/2004 7:25:40 AM #
One of the few redeeming qualities about the m100 series was the cleverly designed all-the-way-back flip covers with the clock viewing hole.

Simple and effective.

Ruggedness was another endearing quality. Between the two, those things could survive quite a bit. They died for OTHER reasons. :(

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Gekko @ 12/12/2004 12:28:12 PM #

Thin Flip Case, Sync in Cradle for PPC

http://www.senacases.com/catalog/DELL-AXIM-X50-X50v-CASES-p-1-c-313.html

GREAT PRODUCTS!!!

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Khris @ 12/12/2004 12:33:33 PM #
From using a Palm IIIxe and LOATHING the flip cover, I've never seen the use or need for it. I'd much rather have some sort of protective case that could protect the device in the event of a slight drop or bumps/bruises. A flip cover isn't going to do anything except fly off in the event of a drop.

I understand it's there to protect the screen, but it's not going to provide much protection in the event of a somewhat more serious accident.

As for why I've switched to PPC, there are several reasons, the major one being the lack of quality devices produced by Palm. $599 CDN for a T5 compared to $519 CDN (currently on sale) for a Dell Axim.....hmmm, tough choice. For $519 I get Wifi, BT, SD and CF expansion slots, 640x480 vga resolution, and more.....for $599 you get a 320x480 screen, SD expansion, BT, and LESS overall.

I still have my T2, and everytime I look at it I wonder why I've let myself follow Palm like a blind sheep for so long.

If Palm works for you then great, but it no longer works for me and I feel that a lot of people are going to be changing their views as well.


RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Surur @ 12/12/2004 2:14:11 PM #

Gekko, That case is nice and all, but it must add 4 mm at least to the thickness of the unit. A metal or plastic flip cover would only add approx 2mm.

And to Khris, hating the flip cover on your palm so much, I hope you just removed it. It comes off rather easily if I recall correctly.

Flip covers costs cents to make, and should be included routinely, just like extra styli. Forcing everyone who want to protect the front of their device to buy expensive cases is just ridiculous.

Surur

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
Khris @ 12/12/2004 6:03:55 PM #
The flip cover was the first thing to go :P

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
twrock @ 12/12/2004 8:08:11 PM #
Surur, you are right. I was trying to be too subtle. :)

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
A9700rO @ 12/15/2004 7:29:33 AM #
Lets face it people, PalmOne is sinking...want more salt in the wound? Try the newly released Tungsten | T5 Vs Dell Axim x50v

The T5 gets horribly slaped to nothing but a tiny silverly pulp. UNLIKE the T5, the Dell Axim x50v has BELT IN Wi-Fi which caused everyone to go on an international b!tchfest, don't forget the belt in Bluetooth too. Unlike the T5, the Dell Axim x50v has a larger resolution screen, 640x480, while the T5 still hasn't got anything higher than 320x480. Keep in mind it also has integrated CompactFlash Type II and Secure Digital / SDIO Now! / MMC card slots provide flexible expansion, dual slots, funny, I don't see anything like that on the T5, heheh...
Next. What? More acid in the wound? Try comparing the processor speeds, the T5 has a 416Mhz processor, X50v has 624Mhz, the T5 is eatin' Axim X50v' digital dust here folks. I don't know much reason as to why some people chose to stay on this sinking ship, but if PalmOne keeps diving deeper in their own pool of sh!t, the logical choice to jump onto, would be Pocket PC, unless Apple has been secretly fooling around to make an 'iPDA' that c r a p s out Palm and Windows Mobile at once.


Clie-SJ22>>Tungsten | E >>> Clie-NX60>>Zire 72

RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
A9700rO @ 12/15/2004 7:43:59 AM #
>.> Let's see now... T5 retails at $399 at the PalmOne website, the X50v retails at $424 from Dell's site. Wow... imagine that, $35 difference, you ought to be a fool to see who's offering more here.

Clie-SJ22>>Tungsten | E >>> Clie-NX60>>Zire 72
RE: Palm is a sinking ship.....
A9700rO @ 12/15/2004 11:53:03 PM #
$25, try typing with a delapidated 10 year old keyboard and three minutes till you have to leave for work.

Clie-SJ22>>Tungsten | E >>> Clie-NX60>>Zire 72

PocketPc's actually DO have APPS.

Surur @ 12/10/2004 3:05:45 PM #

Many palmistas still labour under the impression that pocketpc world is a desert of no apps. Thats so 5 years ago. I suspect there are now more actively maintained pocketpc apps than palm apps.

The basic PalmOS apps has nearly no value as an add-on. Pocketinformant is a million times better. Notes are better than memos. What would PalmOS bring to the table?

I agree this is disinformation, but only because it makes so little sense for any of the participants. It would only work if it was the dying gasp of a company trying to extract the last cent from their IP, not caring for the dignity of their demise....

No that I think of it, who knows, maybe you are right after all....

Surur

RE: PocketPc's actually DO have APPS.
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:34:56 AM #
>>>Pocketinformant is a million times better.

Perhaps for those who love The Outlook Way of Doing Things. I prefer Palm Date Book. It's built for regular people.

If Pocket Informant was the interface to the iPod, the iPod would have been DOA.

RE: PocketPc's actually DO have APPS.
Puppy @ 12/13/2004 5:28:54 PM #
I love Palm Desktop and the basic Palm apps too. I've been using them for over 5 years, and they continue to work great for me (along with Docs to Go of course).

One of the reasons I use PalmOS is BECAUSE of the basic Palm apps and Palm Desktop.

PalmOS devices are looking less and less appealing lately, what with killing off Graffiti, and only PalmOne making hardware now (and IMO their hardware is poorly designed and unreliable).

I'll probably end up switching to a WinCE device for my next PDA, but I'd buy a Palm bundle with the basic Palm apps, maybe a Palm style launcher and Palm Desktop for WinCE in a second if it was available.

Why are we talking about OSs and software?

Alric @ 12/10/2004 3:34:25 PM #
It's the Palmone hardware that is the problem. No WiFi and exhorbitant prices is what's killing Palm, not a bad OS.

Cheers!

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
Yorker @ 12/10/2004 4:16:21 PM #
To be fair its possible for an OS to be part of the reason it's hard to sort out the hardware, but it is a good point - PalmOne's hardware has been disappointing to say the least.
RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
tompi @ 12/10/2004 4:19:38 PM #
"It's the Palmone hardware that is the problem. No WiFi and exhorbitant prices is what's killing Palm, not a bad OS."

WiFi--several companies gave up on WiFi cards, apparently because they just couldn't get the drivers to work. Stowaway Bluetooth keyboard for Palm--they haven't finished the drivers for Palm yet. Linux fixes those kinds of problems.

As for prices, I think Palm is simply charging what the market will bear for the HW/SW combo. The fact that they are getting away with it shows you that people still like the platform.

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
palmhiker @ 12/10/2004 4:57:12 PM #
My understanding is that palmOne refused to provide assistance to SanDisk, WiFi Guys, etc., which prevented them from developing Wi-Fi solutions for the T3, TE, T5. Clearly, the reason they did that was to force the consumer to purchase their more expensive branded solution.

This is likely the holdup on the keyboard, perhaps TO decided to not offer the several months of exclusive sales they have in the past to palmOne.

It is this attitude that is sinking Palm (both companies). Look at Tapwave - They worked WITH Sandisk to produce drivers and you can pick up a $60 card for it. If Tapwave could produce a smaller PDA-centric device with Wi-Fi built in (c'mon, pretty soon even our freaking toasters will have built-in Wi-Fi), they would put a serious hurting on palmOne's higher-end PDA sales.

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
Rome @ 12/10/2004 11:15:05 PM #
Has anyone heard of or seen a Tungsten C before?

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
feranick @ 12/11/2004 2:28:09 PM #
The Tungsten C (I use one BTW), is an ancient, outdated PDA. Look at what's offered in the bundle for the unreasonable price of 400USD. (The web browser is worst than IE 3.0). So please don't compare it with anything on the market.

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
Alric @ 12/11/2004 2:42:38 PM #
Comparing the T|C with modern PPCs is ridiculous. Look at what you get for <$400 for the Axim 50v!

BT
Better screen.
Faster
Compact Flash
etc.

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
G M Fude @ 12/11/2004 5:14:12 PM #
Yes, that's true, Alric, the T/C is an old device. Better to compare it with the spec of PPCs available at the time (when it stacks up very favourably -- but no longer).

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
superdork @ 12/11/2004 11:13:18 PM #
Of the time is the point. Where the heck is an update? At the time it blew away the competition, but now it's getting long in the tooth. PalmOS loyalist have been practically begging for a replacement and instead get a wifi card for more $$.

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
tompi @ 12/12/2004 1:23:10 PM #
My understanding is that palmOne refused to provide assistance to SanDisk, WiFi Guys, etc., which prevented them from developing Wi-Fi solutions for the T3, TE, T5. Clearly, the reason they did that was to force the consumer to purchase their more expensive branded solution.

That's not so clear to me. I suspect Palm just didn't have a complete, reliable WiFi solution (the TC was still a one-off solution where they had complete control of the hw/sw). It took them forever to get their own SDIO WiFi card out.

This is likely the holdup on the keyboard, perhaps TO decided to not offer the several months of exclusive sales they have in the past to palmOne.

I contacted TO and their answer was that it was just a lot harder to develop the Palm version of the driver.

Look at Tapwave - They worked WITH Sandisk to produce drivers and you can pick up a $60 card for it.

Yes, but by now, most of the hard work has been done.

In any case, with a Linux-based kernel, we won't have to guess anymore: the driver architecture is known and proven, and the drivers will be out there for everybody to see.

If Tapwave could produce a smaller PDA-centric device with Wi-Fi built in (c'mon, pretty soon even our freaking toasters will have built-in Wi-Fi), they would put a serious hurting on palmOne's higher-end PDA sales.

I doubt it: WiFi just isn't a big deal for most users; Bluetooth is far more important for PDAs. And with dual SDIO slots, built-in WiFi is even less of an issue for Tapwave.

RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
palmhiker @ 12/13/2004 11:26:45 AM #
I doubt it: WiFi just isn't a big deal for most users; Bluetooth is far more important for PDAs.

You had me until that statement. In case you haven't noticed, Wi-Fi is THE HOTTEST technology being rolled out today. I have a pricey Wi-Fi business report that shows phenomenal growth for the next several years, but all you have to do is take a look at how much shelf space is dedicated to WiFi products in CompUSA, then compare that to their Bluetooth accessory inventory. palmOne (and you) are about the only people who just don't get it.

Bluetooth is nice, but it is at best a compliment to Wi-Fi. Once you have utilized Wi-Fi in a handheld, it is very difficult to give it up. I find a plug-in $120 card a very poor substitute for built-in capability that comes in FAR LESS costly and cumbersome.

But maybe that's just me, HP, Dell, and the other millions of people who have embraced WiFi...


RE: Why are we talking about OSs and software?
feranick @ 12/13/2004 12:41:14 PM #
Add the Tungsten C users endlessly waiting for a PalmOS replacement...

P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze

stan98 @ 12/10/2004 3:41:25 PM #
In the financial world it is considered a fact that PalmOne is going to release a device running some windoze variant by the middle of next year. In the paid culumns shareholders are being prepped as to how to take advantage of that. So - yeah - PIC is right. The Palm as we know is gone. We are suckers not to have seen the signs (IMHO dropping the Mac was the first none-too-subtle hint). This will also mean the demise of PalmSource, as they have no product now that they gave up on the OS thing.
A footnote to the developers: The Linux variant will not allow users to add 3rd party software. This seems important as some dream of an extended user base once the Linux based skin comes out. These will be cheapo phones mainly with no support for even external media.
RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
hackbod @ 12/10/2004 4:00:05 PM #
"The Linux variant will not allow users to add 3rd party software."

This is not true. The low-end feature phone kind of device does not allow users to add 3rd party software, but these don't run on Linux -- they generally use some very small RTOS.

PalmOS for Linux will absolutely run 3rd party software, just like Garnet and Cobalt do today, using the same APIs that third party developers use today. From the user's perspective there will be little to no difference.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

do your homework
tompi @ 12/10/2004 4:12:58 PM #
This will also mean the demise of PalmSource, as they have no product now that they gave up on the OS thing.

PalmSource never really "did the OS thing": their previous kernel was also third party. Apple isn't really doing "the OS thing" either: their kernel is open source. And Sun also is open sourcing their kernel.

A footnote to the developers: The Linux variant will not allow users to add 3rd party software.

Did you even bother to read the announcement? Of course it will. In fact, it will stick to Linux file system and other standards, making it easy to take advantage of Linux libraries and applications.

PalmOne is going to release a device running some windoze variant by the middle of next year

And why not? Good for them. Of course, it will have all the usual problems that PPC devices have.

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
stan98 @ 12/10/2004 4:28:22 PM #
- Apple sells computers.
- PalmSource's mission statement: "We make Palm OS (tm) the software that powers your favorite handheld ..."

So much for homework.

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
tompi @ 12/10/2004 4:37:01 PM #
"Apple sells computers."

Apple bundles other people's hardware with their software. Apple is all about Mac OS X.

"PalmSource's mission statement: We make Palm OS (tm) the software that powers your favorite handheld"

Yes, and PalmOS effectively is the stuff above the kernel, since Palm has used different kernels over their history.


RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
stan98 @ 12/10/2004 4:47:01 PM #
Well, you were saying that PalmSource never was "really" into the OS thing ; )

BTW: Since you seem so knowledable about "Apple Software" (or is it Apple Computers - I keep forgetting) - whose makes these dandy iMac G5s? Also, why didn't HP go to these mysterious people also to be able to sell iPods? Makes you wonder.

Ts ts.

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
tompi @ 12/10/2004 4:53:43 PM #
BTW: Since you seem so knowledable about "Apple Software" (or is it Apple Computers - I keep forgetting) - whose makes these dandy iMac G5s?

I would guess it's still Hon Hai Precision Industry; if you really want to know for sure, you'll have to do some digging.

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2002/05/28.8.shtml

Most of the components in Macs are also standard PC components.

Also, why didn't HP go to these mysterious people also to be able to sell iPods? Makes you wonder.

HP probably uses some of the same suppliers and manufacturers as Apple. But HP can't clone iPod because Apple owns the design.

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
Rome @ 12/10/2004 11:18:44 PM #
"In the financial world it is considered a fact that PalmOne is going to release a device running some windoze variant by the middle of next year."

Great source for future product info. In that same financial world, Enron and MCI Worldcom were once considered great companies.

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
rayz @ 12/11/2004 2:25:20 AM #
<< Most of the components in Macs are also standard PC components. >>

That's kind of like saying the local poultry farmer made the chicken korma I had last night.

Every component for every gadget has to come from somewhere. Who puts the package together is what's important. Did a third party design the iMac G5?

palmOne PPC
twrock @ 12/11/2004 5:48:17 AM #
"In the financial world it is considered a fact that PalmOne is going to release a device running some windoze variant by the middle of next year."

You know what is really going to be maddening? If P1 comes out with the "T5" device everyone was begging for,... but it's a PPC.

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:38:14 AM #
>>>This is not true. The low-end feature phone kind of device does not allow users to add 3rd party software, but these don't run on Linux -- they generally use some very small RTOS.

But wait a minute. One of the key points of acquiring CMS is to enter that low-cost space!

>>>PalmOS for Linux will absolutely run 3rd party software, just like Garnet and Cobalt do today, using the same APIs that third party developers use today. From the user's perspective there will be little to no difference.

>stifling my snicker<

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
hackbod @ 12/11/2004 6:35:44 PM #
"But wait a minute. One of the key points of acquiring CMS is to enter that low-cost space!"

Absolutely; Linux is very much a secondary part of this. That why Linux is the -last- bullet item in the announcement.

China MobileSoft's feature phone product does not use Linux, it is designed to sit on top of the RTOS used by the customer. See http://www.chinamobilesoft.com/product/mfone2.asp for more info.

The number 1 most important part of this announcement is that we now have a product line that extends all the way from high-end smart phones down to very low-end feature phones. Neither Cobalt nor Garnet were able to address a real mass-market feature phone product, which is a part of this acquisition that is more important (at least in the short term) than the Linux announcement.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
tompi @ 12/11/2004 8:55:11 PM #
Every component for every gadget has to come from somewhere. Who puts the package together is what's important. Did a third party design the iMac G5?

I don't get what you are trying to argue. Macintosh hardware is functionally not significantly different from PC hardware: same components, same manufactures, same limitations, same features. Therefore, the only thing Apple really owns is branding, marketing channels, and the OS X GUI.

RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
ChiA @ 12/12/2004 8:50:01 PM #
>" I don't get what you are trying to argue. Macintosh hardware is functionally not significantly different from PC hardware: same components, same manufactures, same limitations, same features. Therefore, the only thing Apple really owns is branding, marketing channels, and the OS X GUI "<

Tompi, you are VERY wrong on this issue; the Mac may use many of the same components: optical drives, memory etc but Apple DESIGNS the MOTHERBOARDS used within Macs AND uses the PowerPC G4/G5 processors instead of those with the x86 architecture. These are TWO significant differences from other PC hardware.

Yes, other companies build the computers for Apple; but it is Apple who designs their own computers and tells the contrators how to build them. If you need proof of this, look on any recent Mac; you'll find the phrase "Designed by Apple, Assembled in Taiwan".

Just as when you design and pay for a house to be built, it is you who owns the house, not the people who build it for you.


RE: P1 making good progress w/ device running Windoze
stan98 @ 12/12/2004 9:18:26 PM #
There is one other thing ; )
Sentient life forms understand the basic mathematical difference between selling Hardware AND software versus licensing software only.

How do I put this nicely ...

pmjoe @ 12/10/2004 3:34:47 PM #
I've been around PalmInfocenter.com for years. I appreciate Mike Cane's discussion comments greatly.

That said, quite frankly, I have never read an article from him on this site that I've liked. They're opinion pieces, more opinion than anything else, and I don't think they add much value, if any, to this site. It's the difference between PalmInfocenter being "newspaper" and "tabloid" material.

For example, you've reposted this "Linux on a Springboard" piece from him where he says of Handspring, "The future is: PalmOS devices will be nothing more than a SINGLE PRODUCT LINE out of the fast-growing Handspring corporate offices."

Hmmm .... NOPE!

Now we get this "We, the Suckers" article with more of the same. As Dianne from PalmSource already put it above, "Keep in mind that Linux would be the -fourth- kernel PalmOS runs on during its lifetime."

Maybe you need a "soapbox" area for this kind of stuff. I appreciate Mike Cane's opinion, but it's not front page material.

RE: How do I put this nicely ...
Baryn @ 12/10/2004 4:30:20 PM #
I would call the Treo the only POS that is really must-have. I don't think Mike's comments in that regard were too far off-base.

RE: How do I put this nicely ...
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:40:34 AM #
>>>I've been around PalmInfocenter.com for years. I appreciate Mike Cane's discussion comments greatly.

And yet you only registered recently?

RE: How do I put this nicely ...
Strider_mt2k @ 12/11/2004 11:06:05 AM #
He could have been on here before under a different handle.

Surely you're familiar with that?

RE: How do I put this nicely ...
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 11:09:38 AM #
How many have *you* had? Or currently have?

RE: How do I put this nicely ...
pmjoe @ 12/11/2004 10:46:16 PM #
Just for you MC, I'll take the time to answer this. Yes, I've been around since 1999. Almost nobody else around here posts under a handle that can be easily traced back to their actual person, so I don't see any reason to do it any more. I also think it's too bad this site dropped anonymous posts on the news stories. What's the point when nobody has a meaningful handle anyhow

Yeah, so as far as I can remember you didn't even exist in those days.

RE: How do I put this nicely ...
Khris @ 12/12/2004 1:24:04 AM #
Don't bother trying to have a rational debate with Mr. Cane as no matter what you say, you'll always be wrong.

Personally I feel his "We, the suckers" editorial (more like a whine) is full of useless opinions and lacking intelligent information/thought. It's a whine/rant/whatever you want to call it.



it's not a "skin"

tompi @ 12/10/2004 3:39:25 PM #
"The third shoe to drop was the bombshell of Cobalt basically becoming a skin for a variant of Linux!"

All major desktop operating systems (Linux, Windows, MacOS) have separate kernels, command line environments, window servers, toolkit libraries, and applications. That's the way systems are built these days.

Of these components, the kernels have become almost as interchangeable as AMD and Intel; functionally, there is no significant difference between the Windows XP kernel, Darwin, Linux, Solaris, or BSD. Apple used the free Mach kernel, not their own, and keeps releasing the changes back to the community; if they had to, they could probably switch to Linux or BSD without much effort. Apple would very much object if you called OSX "just a skin" for Darwin. OTOH, the lack of interest from the FOSS community in Darwin also shows you that Darwin just doesn't offer anything Linux doesn't already have. Sun is releasing Solaris under an open source license because there is no value in their kernel anymore either. And Palm is using the Linux kernel, a sensible choice if there ever was one, because it's cheap and widely supported. Palm's major miscalculation, a few years ago, was to think that kernels did still matter and sink vast amounts of money into BeOS.

Kernels don't matter anymore because they have become commoditized; the only area where they are different is in driver support, and the two kernels that are the clear leaders there are Windows and Linux. The only thing that matters to users in operating systems, the thing that distinguishes products, is the graphical environment and the applications. For better or for worse, Palm-on-Linux is and remains a Palm environment: you can keep developing the way you always have, it looks the same, and the only difference users see is that it crashes less.

The one thing that will not easily happen is for the Palm apps to run well on PPC. Why? Because Microsoft is the last holdout. they still have the market share to translate control of a platform into control of applications and desktop tie-ins. And the Windows CE kernel has quirks and limitations that make it difficult to port to/from.

For you to say that Palm now is a "skin" for Linux is either deliberately inflammatory or simply uninformed. Palm, finally, made the right business and technical decision, and you should applaud and support them for that.

RE: it's not a
hackbod @ 12/10/2004 7:20:05 PM #
Hi tompi,

Thank-you for the great comments. One small thing I would like to correct, though, is the comment "...think that kernels did still matter and sink vast amounts of money into BeOS."

Cobalt does not use the BeOS kernel. In fact most if not all of the technology from Be that is currently in Cobalt should exist essentially as-is in "PalmOS for Linux".

That said, sure, it can be argued that 3 years ago it would have been better to have started out on the Linux kernel than the one we use now. Maybe PalmSource should have been more visionary about this decision then, but on the other hand only a few years ago there were still some significant issues with the Linux kernel. For example, it wasn't until 2.6 that a preemptive kernel was standard part of Linux, and this is an important feature for interactive and media-intensive applications.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

Did Dianne Hackborn just say that??? WTF???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 8:59:30 PM #
That said, sure, it can be argued that 3 years ago it would have been better to have started out on the Linux kernel than the one we use now. Maybe PalmSource should have been more visionary about this decision then...


Well I'll be a slackjawed yokel. Billy Bob! Bubba! Cleetus! Grab me a banjo! Yee haw!

What happened to your previous claims about The Perfect Code Formerly Known As Be (TPCPKAB)?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7258

All this from the BeBopper that FREAKED OUT when it was politely suggested that Palm should have chosen a UNIX flavor as the underpinnings of PalmOS rather than going with a freshly rolled Be-derived kernel. Why don't you just admit Palm/PalmSource fcuked up in a major way and are trying a "Hail Mary" pass to pull the game out on the final play? Then again, why don't you just undercut Cobalt some more, DK? Sheesh.

Your panicked rash of Michael Mace-like damage control posts over the past day speaks volumes. Never let the ba$tards get you down, DK. Never sell out. Be true. Be you.


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 2:01:36 AM #
most if not all of the technology from Be that is currently in Cobalt should exist essentially as-is in "PalmOS for Linux".

Kinda like "most if not all of the technology from Ford that was in the Model T should exist essentially as-is in 2005 Porsche 911". (i.e. both have 4 wheels, an engine, seats, a windshield...)

Care to give us a REALISTIC timeline for when PalmLinux will magically cease being VAPORWARE and actually become available for real devices, DK? Let's see: deal gets done in February or March, 2005. Cross-pollination with English-Chinese translators hired to permit communication between lame duck Cobalt team and the Great Chinese Hope. A year of coding + testing takes us to around Summer, 2006 as the EARLIEST date for PalmLinux to be available. Assuming, of course, no showstopping bugs. Assuming the codemonkeys at the Great Chinese Hope actually know what they're doing. Assuming this doesn't turn into yet another MultiMail or anyday.com debacle. Assuming bitter Be engineers don't sabotage the whole project. Assuming the Linux kernel customizations aren't beyond PalmSource's abilities. Assuming all the components play nice together. Sounds like a LOT of assumptions. (Though to hear you and other PalmSource people talk in the past day, it's almost as if PalmLinux and its stunning new 3D GUI are ready to ship. Yesterday. So easy. In fact, at lunchtime I just coded PalmFreeBSD to use on my company's CLIES. Would you like me to send you a copy for Christmas?)

Get serious, DK. Who's going to be waiting for PalmSource when (if) PalmLinux finally shows up in 2006 or 2007???


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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: it's not a
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:42:34 AM #
Really. Why are you getting all excited? The first "version" of PalmNix, Pinux (I like that!), Whatever, will be as I said: a SKIN. I don't give a damn what anyone else says about it. You think they'll take all that CMS stuff (come on, you think this is just about a *kernel*?) and xlate it to Cobalt (R.I.P.!) APIs (or even GUI!) in time to get hardware out in a reasonable time? Hah! And double Hah! (I'd throw in a triple, but this is tiresome...) The Linux will bleed from it left and right, just like on the Sharp Zaurus.

There is something for the local coding talent to consider, however, as they swoon over the possibility of all this additional work (ie, $$$) down the road: Outsourcing. They can probably get *ten* Chinese programmers for every *one* of *you*.

Better get those "How Palm Killed Itself: The Inside Story Revealed!" book proposals out there NOW. You just might have lots of time on your hands!

PalmOS like GNOME?
feranick @ 12/11/2004 2:33:31 PM #
Skin or not skin, well I still think that is irrelevant. When you get a linux distribution for your PC what are you going to use? The majority of Linux beginners will not use the command line interface, as well as experienced users will most likely not use lynx to surf on the internet. What people use are GNOME or KDE, which works on the same kernel. That's what the user feels, interact with. Palm is most likely to do the same for PDA/phones.

As far as I can see it, that's a smart move.

Mike Cane: Buy a vowel. Or THREE.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 7:48:59 PM #
Really. Why are you getting all excited? The first "version" of PalmNix, Pinux (I like that!), Whatever, will be as I said: a SKIN. I don't give a damn what anyone else says about it. You think they'll take all that CMS stuff (come on, you think this is just about a *kernel*?) and xlate it to Cobalt (R.I.P.!) APIs (or even GUI!) in time to get hardware out in a reasonable time? Hah! And double Hah! (I'd throw in a triple, but this is tiresome...) The Linux will bleed from it left and right, just like on the Sharp Zaurus.

There is something for the local coding talent to consider, however, as they swoon over the possibility of all this additional work (ie, $$$) down the road: Outsourcing. They can probably get *ten* Chinese programmers for every *one* of *you*.

Better get those "How Palm Killed Itself: The Inside Story Revealed!" book proposals out there NOW. You just might have lots of time on your hands!

Mike, I STILL think you don't understand what a kernel is. *sigh*

Secondly, this POTENTIAL deal is about getting a new set of codemonkeys (with Linux experience) to replace the now-disgraced Be engineers. Consider this to be Plan B (9?) from Outer Mongolia.

Thirdly, after all the talk about how Palm has so many ex-Apple execs, and how they seemed to be repeating so many of Apple's mistakes, here we are in the same position AGAIN. Cobalt is the new Copeland, but PalmSource lacks the rabid Mac fanatic user base to sustain itself while it attempts to regroup. Furthermore, PalmSource lacks the ability to generate profits from HARDWARE sales the way Apple did in the lean years. On top of that, unlike the case with Mac, Microsoft has no incentive to keep PalmOS alive. PDA OSes don't show up on the DOJ anticompetitive radar.

What we're seeing is PalmSource slowly, inexplicably committing suicide.

The outsourcing issue is truly odious. From cheap (and now not-so-cheap) electronics to household goods to technical support jobs to computer programmers, shameless outsourcing to India and China is obviously out of control. I see most of IBM's Thinkpads are now made in China (that's the last time I ever buy a Thinkpad...) And IBM is in the process of selling their computer business to a Chinese company. Thanks, IBM. CORPORATE AMERICA HAS SOLD OUT TO CHEAP FOREIGN LABOR. Why the government doesn't see this as a huge threat to the economy is incredible. We need more protectionist legislature before it's too late. America will soon be at the mercy of countries like China and India, and by the time people realize this, it will be too late to do a damn thing about it.

If the deal goes through, it's obvious that many current PalmSource programmers will be "downsized". Now the Holy Be engineers must know how their Palm predecessors felt in 2001...


TVoR


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Yankee go home. And thanks for the IP, by the way! ;-)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 8:24:04 PM #
Secondly, this POTENTIAL deal is about getting a new set of codemonkeys (with Linux experience) to replace the now-disgraced Be engineers. Consider this to be Plan B (9?) from Outer Mongolia.

No doubt PalmSource also feels the deal buys them the key to the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow: access to the Chinese market. PalmSource should first look into exactly how many American companies have been able to make money in China. And how many major American companies (like a little outfit known as Microsoft) have been sodomized over the years in China.




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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: it's not a
tompi @ 12/11/2004 9:34:10 PM #
Thanks, IBM. CORPORATE AMERICA HAS SOLD OUT TO CHEAP FOREIGN LABOR. Why the government doesn't see this as a huge threat to the economy is incredible.

Well, foreign labor is cheap because the US dollar is still overvalued. Once it comes down, the problem will take care of itself.

We need more protectionist legislature before it's too late.

The response to US import restrictions are foreign import restrictions. What do you think that's going to do to US jobs?

America will soon be at the mercy of countries like China and India, and by the time people realize this, it will be too late to do a damn thing about it.

There are 2 billion people in those nations alone, compared to, what, 330 million in the US. It think it's a good bet that China and India will be running the global economy in a few decades.

USA Vs. China + India. WAKE UP, PEOPLE!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 10:27:53 PM #
>>Thanks, IBM. CORPORATE AMERICA HAS SOLD OUT TO CHEAP FOREIGN LABOR. Why the government doesn't see this as a huge threat to the economy is incredible.

Well, foreign labor is cheap because the US dollar is still overvalued. Once it comes down, the problem will take care of itself.

Ridiculous. Greed Corp of America, Inc looks at employee, Bubba in Atlanta making $40,000/year + full health benefits + union contract Vs. Rajiv or Wai Ming that they could pay less than $4000/year. Who will they choose? Or how about their foreign factories that don't have to care about compliance with silly things like Health + Safety regulations or Environmental Regulations? Even if you could somehow devalue the American dollar by 50%, Third World and Communist country labor has an unfair advantage in this New World Order. The avalanche started with a snowball and the people sleeping blissfully in Who-Ville, USA at the bottom of the mountain don't know what's about to hit them.

>>>We need more protectionist legislature before it's too late.

The response to US import restrictions are foreign import restrictions. What do you think that's going to do to US jobs?

As if American companies don't operate with trade restrictions now. Do you think American companies are playing on a level field in China? Repatriated jobs would revitalize the domestic economy. Trade deficits need to be wiped out. Of course big business lobby groups will ensure this never happens.

>>>America will soon be at the mercy of countries like China and India, and by the time people realize this, it will be too late to do a damn thing about it.

There are 2 billion people in those nations alone, compared to, what, 330 million in the US. It think it's a good bet that China and India will be running the global economy in a few decades.

Not if America wakes up in time. There's no reason to hand over the keys to the US economy to the Third World. It's time for the USA to start looking after #1 (just like every other country already does).




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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

America IS protectionist
Surur @ 12/12/2004 6:07:50 AM #
America is one of the most protected large economies, second only to Japan. And America has ALWAYS protected their interests VERY aggressively, just look at Iraq or Kyoto, and the pressure America has put on sovereign countries in Europe and even Australia to make their IP laws as restrictive as US (e.g. near indefinite copyright laws, steel tariffs, logging laws, farm subsidies etc etc.

The fact is though that business is in charge of making the laws, and they dont protect Americans, they protect themselves. You voted Bush back in again, I dont see any hope for your future.

Surur

RE: it's not a
tompi @ 12/12/2004 1:30:35 PM #
Greed Corp of America, Inc looks at employee, Bubba in Atlanta making $40,000/year + full health benefits + union contract Vs. Rajiv or Wai Ming that they could pay less than $4000/year. Who will they choose?

They will choose the foreign worker, of course. And that's why Bubba's $40000/year salary can actually buy a house full of consumer products and a car. If Bubba could only buy products made by other Bubba's, then his $40000/year would be worth a fraction of what they are worth now.

As if American companies don't operate with trade restrictions now. Do you think American companies are playing on a level field in China?

There are no "level playing fields", but third world nations have far more cause to complain: the US and Europe are screwing them badly on agricultural subsidies and dumping. The current system is already rigged in favor of the US and Europe. If the US tries to make it even more one-sided, people are just going to jump ship.

Not if America wakes up in time. There's no reason to hand over the keys to the US economy to the Third World. It's time for the USA to start looking after #1 (just like every other country already does).

Europeans have largely overcome their selfish nationalistic impulses and manage to cooperate. But apparently the US wants to repeat the mistakes of early 20th century nationalism for itself.

In any case, it's not like the US has a choice in the matter: the keys to the US economy are already in foreign hands, just like the keys to any other economy. That's what a global economy means. If you think global competition makes the US poor, that's nothing compared to the drop in living standards that autarky would entail.

USA Protectionism Vs. Big Business Interests.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 3:10:33 PM #
The fact is though that business is in charge of making the laws, and they dont protect Americans, they protect themselves. You voted Bush back in again, I dont see any hope for your future.

Precisely. Big business cares only for profit, at the expense of all else. Legislation needs to be enacted for the good of citizens.

Let's not open up the Bush can of worms, but the fact that big business makes huge profits off policies/actions of the current government (just look at the American Vice President's Halliburton connection!) shows who's in control of decision making in Washington. Hint: it isn't The People.

Yes, a small majority of Americans voted a simpleton puppet back into office for another 4 years. But a few years ago the country was run by an actor suffering with Alzheimer disease and the US still survived. Unfortunately, the country has no one to blame for what happens between now and 2008.




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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

USA Protectionism Vs. Big Business Interests. (cont'd)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 3:24:30 PM #
>>>Greed Corp of America, Inc looks at employee, Bubba in Atlanta making $40,000/year + full health benefits + union contract Vs. Rajiv or Wai Ming that they could pay less than $4000/year. Who will they choose?

They will choose the foreign worker, of course. And that's why Bubba's $40000/year salary can actually buy a house full of consumer products and a car. If Bubba could only buy products made by other Bubba's, then his $40000/year would be worth a fraction of what they are worth now.

Nonsense. Americans can make products efficiently, if the desire is there. Or if businesses have some incentive to keep jobs/production local. Palm's switch to Chinese production + Indian technical support proves businesses don't care about quality - only profits - so that's why legislation is needed to "encourage" companies to keep jobs in the USA. Buying American will definitely mean either slightly lower profit margins or slightly higher prices, but would only minimally impact purchasing power. In any case, it is better for America for Bubba to have one USA-made DVD player than two China-made players. The goal should be to keep as many Americans as possible employed, paying taxes, purchasing and contributing to the economy.

>>>As if American companies don't operate with trade restrictions now. Do you think American companies are playing on a level field in China?

There are no "level playing fields", but third world nations have far more cause to complain: the US and Europe are screwing them badly on agricultural subsidies and dumping. The current system is already rigged in favor of the US and Europe. If the US tries to make it even more one-sided, people are just going to jump ship.

The Chinese playing field is not only tilted 90 degrees in favor of China but also littered with land mines. Only China knows where the mines are. The amount of IP theft occurring in the Far East is incredible. The Far East of today like the Wild West of yesteryear: anything goes. The USA needs to play hardball. Besides its reliance on foreign oil, the country can do quite OK in a more protectionist setting.

>>>Not if America wakes up in time. There's no reason to hand over the keys to the US economy to the Third World. It's time for the USA to start looking after #1 (just like every other country already does).

Europeans have largely overcome their selfish nationalistic impulses and manage to cooperate. But apparently the US wants to repeat the mistakes of early 20th century nationalism for itself.

In any case, it's not like the US has a choice in the matter: the keys to the US economy are already in foreign hands, just like the keys to any other economy. That's what a global economy means. If you think global competition makes the US poor, that's nothing compared to the drop in living standards that autarky would entail.

Please. The EU is a Titanic disaster just waiting to happen. USA needs to reassert its independence from foreign countries. The "Global Economy" benefits only big business and (to a much lesser degree) the Third World. Yes, it's probably too late to stop the sell-out of the American domestic manufacturing and IT industries, especially given the degree that shady foreign investment has penetrated the economy.

I suppose no one will notice until USA unemployment figures hit 15% and Time magazine and the rest of mainstream media start asking "Where have all the jobs gone?". At that point it will be too late. The dye is cast.




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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: it's not a
atrizzah @ 12/13/2004 10:50:06 AM #
Really. Why are you getting all excited? The first "version" of PalmNix, Pinux (I like that!), Whatever, will be as I said: a SKIN. I don't give a damn what anyone else says about it. You think they'll take all that CMS stuff (come on, you think this is just about a *kernel*?) and xlate it to Cobalt (R.I.P.!) APIs (or even GUI!) in time to get hardware out in a reasonable time? Hah! And double Hah! (I'd throw in a triple, but this is tiresome...) The Linux will bleed from it left and right, just like on the Sharp Zaurus.

There is something for the local coding talent to consider, however, as they swoon over the possibility of all this additional work (ie, $$$) down the road: Outsourcing. They can probably get *ten* Chinese programmers for every *one* of *you*.

Better get those "How Palm Killed Itself: The Inside Story Revealed!" book proposals out there NOW. You just might have lots of time on your hands!

You make no compelling point whatsoever as to why PalmOS would ditch their API's for Linux. For that matter, you make no compelling point whatsoever as to your own expertise in computer engineering, without which, you aren't qualified to comment on matter such as these.

Peace Out
Alan

RE: it's not a
hyperdaz @ 12/15/2004 10:41:04 AM #
And you call yourself The_Voice_of_Reason....

some of your points go along quite well then u hit this...

"USA needs to reassert its independence from foreign countries. The "Global Economy" benefits only big business and (to a much lesser degree) the Third World"

which makes no sence... reasoning... If USA reasserts independence many countries like Japan, China, India the list is so long I wont go on... will pull out their investment in the US Dollor... and theres only one thing left after that....

go for it I dare Americans :)

(it might even work)

I think history proves it probably wont...
:D tea anyone... ooh hows the loop on that... (slap bang on topic)


Economics 101
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/15/2004 4:20:28 PM #
Fortunately, it's a two way street. It would boil down to who needs who the most, who has the stronger economy, and who would blink first in the staring contest.

My money says Japan, India, etc. need the US more than the US needs them. We'll never find out though, since big business is too busy selling America's future off for a quick buck.


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

(©) Copyright Mike Cane 2005.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 4:09:33 PM #
Are you Back from The Future™?


- TVoR, Inc.

Disclaimer: The above post was copyrighted by TVoR, Inc©. Reproduction in part or in whole without permission is expressly prohibited.




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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: (©) Copyright Mike Cane 2005.
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:47:18 AM #
My God! This was supposed to be published *next* year!

RE: (©) Copyright Mike Cane 2005.
Khris @ 12/12/2004 1:28:23 AM #
They probably figured it would be best to get this crap over and done with so we can bring 2005 in on a good note.

WHERE ARE THE DEVICES

superdork @ 12/10/2004 4:29:23 PM #
To put it bluntly, Linux on Palm OS doesn’t matter now or two years from now. What matters is a physical device you can sell to a customer. This is the root of all problems for Palmsource.
My question to anyone from Palmsource reading this is: WHERE ARE THE DEVICES?


The following is a list of the past few months devices from both camps.

Windows Mobile:
Dell Axim X50V High, X50 Mid, X50 Low
HP IPaq HX4700, rz1715, rx3115, tx3715
Fujitsu Siemens Loox 720
Asus A730
Toshiba E830
Casio DT-10(Think this one runs Windows CE)
HTC I-Mate Jam http://www.imate.com/products.php?id=10


Windows Mobile Smartphone:
Audiovox SMT 5600 http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=42622#42622
Motorola MPX220 http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=478
Motorola Other MPX http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3383.html
AWWWWW I'M GETTING TIRED OF LISTING THEM!! :) Take a look at http://www.msmobiles.com/ , http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/ , and http://www.endgadget.com .


PalmOS (Palmsource doesn't really make much of a distinction between the diffrent versions):
PalmOne Treo650
PalmOne Tungsten T5
(I'm not counting that special edition Zire crap)
Sony VZ-90

That's about all I can think of. I know both lists are not all inclusive, but you get the idea.

Also not included above is Windows Mobile's penetration into the portable media center market.

PS. Sorry if this looks really messy as I cannot preview my comment.

Linux helps with that
tompi @ 12/10/2004 4:47:26 PM #
To put it bluntly, Linux on Palm OS doesn’t matter now or two years from now. What matters is a physical device you can sell to a customer.

That's exactly why Linux matters. Linux already runs on most of the HP/Compaq handhelds, on Sharp's line, on several Asian reference implementations (the kind that get imported and then shipped under some US label), several other handhelds, and lots of smartphones.

Porting Cobalt to those devices would probably have been a significant effort and a difficult sell for Palm. By putting Palm on Linux, those vendors can now offer Palm without any significant delays or engineering investments. The only thing PalmSource needs to do is negotiate well.

RE: WHERE ARE THE DEVICES
robert_rhode @ 12/10/2004 4:55:29 PM #
The devices are there. According to PalmSource's web site, there are 32 PDAs and 11 phones running Palm OS (granted, not all are the latest thing and some may have been EOL'd). Over 36 million devices have been sold. According to articles at this site, in most markets and over most spans of time, Palm OS still outsells all those PPC models put together (that Gartner study does not include phones). The installed base for sure is far larger. What exactly do you mean by, "Where are the devices?" The devices are there, by the millions. "We" still outnumber "them" by a good margin. Is your beef just that there aren't enough new SKUs this quarter?

RE: WHERE ARE THE DEVICES
superdork @ 12/10/2004 5:13:24 PM #
I completely agree with your reply's about the number of units sold and Palmsource probably does come out on top, but I really don't care about your Zire's and Tungsten Es.

I don't want PalmOne and Palmsource to become the equivlent of E Machines in the Smartphone/PDA world and at the rate they are going that is exactly what will happen. Palmsource will be producing a cheap OS for millions in China and PalmOne will be telling us the the Treo 750 has everything we need when others are offering Wifi, Wimax, and other newer technologies.

I want PalmOne/Palmsource to invoate like they used to. I want them to be much more forward looking with the hardware side of their Technology.

I just don't buy the fact that Linux is going to change much as Linux is still behind Windows when it comes to device drivers.
An example would be Wimax. If this technology catches on, you'd want it in your PDA/Smartphone. Microsoft with strong ties to Intel will probably be the first to have the chip and device drivers in their Windows Mobile devices. One year later Palmsource and PalmOne will be waiting for someone in the OSS community to develop the drivers for them.

Palm used to take complex technology and make it simple, now they don't even take the technology in the first place.


RE: WHERE ARE THE DEVICES
Rome @ 12/10/2004 11:24:19 PM #
It is the quality that counts, not the quantity. GM launches more new models in a year than what BMW does in a decade. Guess what? I will take a BMW over a GM anyday!

The Treo smartphones probably outsell all Microsoft smartphones combined in the U.S.. And I just bought a Treo 650 myself, and I can tell you that it is the BEST smartphone on the market today.

RE: WHERE ARE THE DEVICES
superdork @ 12/11/2004 1:34:50 AM #
Hey Rome, I understand your point, but I'm thinking far in the future. Linux is a good step in the right direction, but if Palmsource doesn't get Palm on as many different devices as possible quickly they will loose the marketing game.
People will see MS's OSs everywhere: in phones, portable media centers, PDAs, full media centers, etc. Microsoft will start to implement MS ONLY features BETWEEN these devices and voila, PalmOS is toast.
I won't argue about PalmOne quality as you can run a quick search of the forums and find many many build issues with T3 digitizers, Zire paint, etc.
I understand where you are coming from, but I'm just looking a couple years out and it's not looking pretty.

RE: WHERE ARE THE DEVICES
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:49:06 AM #
>>>I'm just looking a couple years out and it's not looking pretty

Listen: It doesn't look pretty *now*. I no longer see people waiting on line with PalmOS PDAs. They have the Samsung and hp *PPC Phone Edition*! Plus I've seen a few Dells (PPCs). I've seen a few Treos -- and those have actually been a surprise (as in, "What? Are people still using *those*?")

RE: WHERE ARE THE DEVICES
hotpaw4 @ 12/12/2004 4:06:12 PM #
If Mike calls it just a "skin", then this so-called "skin" (UI/API/libraries) is really the most important part of an OS from both any user and developers point-of-view.

How many linux apps don't run on top of stdio/X/Gnome/KDE? Or Mac OS apps which don't use Classic/Carbon/Cocoa (or stdio/X) ? Or even Windows apps (except games) which don't use MFC?

The bare-metal OS kernel is of interest mainly to driver developers and people doing massive system performance tuning. And there seems to be a lot of support for linux kernel driver development these days.

As for any porting difficulties, remember that the PalmOS Cobalt simulator *is* PalmOS (just compiled to x86 instead of ARM) running on top of a foreign kernel. They've been there and done that.


Diary of a Madman

Gekko @ 12/10/2004 4:39:36 PM #

This article should have been titled "MikeCon: Diary of a Madman".


RE: Diary of a Madman
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:50:46 AM #
I can always count on you to be right behind me, Gekko old pal. With a knife poised...

RE: Diary of a Madman
Admin @ 12/13/2004 11:02:56 AM #
u guyz are ridiculous

:P

Read the Docs.

Texonite @ 12/10/2004 5:03:06 PM #
I think, Dianne and others have made clear what will be *added* to PalmSource portfolio, but for people, who are saying some stupid things like "we will have to use _other_ apps on that system" or so I would offer: please READ the documents. Don't read headers and think, but just read the whole text. PLEASE.

____________________
Future Online!
Sorry for my bad english :(
RE: Read the Docs.
Gekko @ 12/10/2004 5:26:56 PM #

Like WindowsXP for Linux?

Dubious strategy.



RE: Read the Docs.
atrizzah @ 12/13/2004 10:47:12 AM #
That actually sounds like a decent idea. A smoother GUI with a much more powerful and flexible back end. Just like Mac OS X and BSD

Peace Out
Alan

The Weight

jim04330 @ 12/10/2004 6:05:31 PM #
I haven't seen anybody address the burden that the PalmOS currently carries... backward compatibility.

We've heard about problems with the new OS (6 or whatever gemstone they want to call it) because of the compatibility factor. If it is hard to step out beyond this line drawn in the sand, make a big break for it. Be revolutionary instead of evolutionary.

Jim

RE: The Weight
hackbod @ 12/10/2004 7:14:59 PM #
Our existing application base is extremely important, and worth the effort needed to support it. This is no different than the same issues on Windows and MacOS. Dealing with those compatibility issues (and I will be the first to admit that there are areas we need to improve in this) is a fundamental part of developing a platform.

One viable way to make revolutionary changes in a platform (and the approach we took in Cobalt, which has quite a number of revolutionary changes in the basic architecture) is to build those new pieces separate from the existing architecture, and provide a way to emulate the old APIs on the new. This is the exact same approach Apple took with OSX.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

RE: compatibility
Cheetah @ 12/11/2004 3:15:43 AM #
Diane,

I hope Palm learns from the T5 experience. Obviously Colbart will be much tougher then the incremental changes in the T5 OS.

Apple is the champ of major OS changes while not cutting off the older apps. They've done major transitions twice and should be the gold standard in this regard.

I hope Palm learns from their own T5 experience + Apple's example.

RE: The Weight
hyperdaz @ 12/15/2004 11:05:59 AM #
I thought Palm did take a leaf out of Apples books...

charging for updates n fixes... and calling it a new OS

How to become a footnote

stan98 @ 12/10/2004 5:47:28 PM #
Remember this time well, because December 2004 is when the full picture became visible to most. It doesn't matter whether the cause is just greed or stupidity by those in charge. A year or two from now we won't be meeting in this forum and there will be no Palm handheld of any sort.
Once PalmOne has finalized its plans and the entire lineup runs Windoze it will be quickly gobbled up in the marketplace by the likes of Acer, Dell, etc. Its very identity is in the OS and there is no reason ever to buy a handheld from PalmOne if it runs Windoze. Others do that better, and cheaper.
As for PalmSource, we'll be seeing freeware versions of GNOME and KDE running on the Linux kernel if everything goes well. That will be enormous fun, but also the end. Linux people don't really buy much and without PalmOne who is going to pay big bucks for Linux.
The biggest mistake in all the hustling and shuffling since greed dictated that the company must be split into two was to abandon the trademark - the name. PalmSource is not Palm and neither is PalmOne. People still refer to it as a Palm Pilot - even years after that particular lawsuit. We'll have to use yet another name, as Palm OS handheld will become obsolete. Here are two variants:

Linux OS TapWave
PalmOne PocketPC

It really is too bad ; (

RE: How to become a footnote
Hazniet @ 12/13/2004 7:36:26 PM #
God...PalmOne PocketPC

I'm swimming in the drool from Micro$oft and Gates. They would kill to have that name under their coat. PalmOne is an idiot company.

LONG LIVE THE PALM OS, WHATEVER FORM IT TAKES ON!

________________________________________
If you feel like you're under control, you're just not going fast enough.

Nothing new to see here

robert_rhode @ 12/10/2004 7:00:00 PM #
Palm OS built on a PalmSource kernel or an mLinux kernel is still Palm OS. Even if PalmSource did build Palm OS on top of Windows Mobile, it would still be Palm OS. The user will still enjoy the Palm OS user experience, and the developer will still build apps using the Palm OS API. Palm OS as the user-visible layer on any underlying platform is still Palm OS. This is a non-issue. What's the fuss about?

RE: Nothing new to see here
lobotomic @ 12/10/2004 7:12:32 PM #
PocketPC is NOT a kernel: Windows CE is a kernel. Palm Source *could* build their Cobalt API upon Win CE, but not over PocketPC. In fact, what Palm Source will add over the Linux kernel --the Cobalt API-- is analogous to what Microsoft has added over Windows CE -- the PocketPC API

The OS doesnt matters

uira @ 12/10/2004 7:34:24 PM #
Exactly, and thats why even microsoft is secretly working on Linux. Today just about everything except the little "linux is for nerds, i'm afraid of it" market run linux, you find it on most servers, mainframes, colleges and everywhere else, and it can be ported to anything you want. Thats why PalmSoource's move is a smart one. Sun has already done that with its Java Desktop, a whole set o user interfaces and applications that run on a java layer on top of linux. POS will go in the same direction, actually, IMO everything will go in the same direction. The os will be the same everywhere, and you just get a user and aplication interface to run the apps you want.
Well, sorry for any typos.

"There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understande binary and those who don't."

Doomsday Strategy?

Gekko @ 12/10/2004 9:08:41 PM #

What is everyone's Doomsday Strategy for their data just in case PSRC and/or PLMO implode? I have a T3 now syncing with Palm Desktop. I don't want to have to jump through hoops exporting/importing .CSV files and trying to match up fields to try to get data on a PPC/Outlook if my T3 breaks/dies. The best way to convert is to sync your Palm with Outlook and then sync the PPC. BUT if my T3 is broken, I won't be able to sync. I guess if I move quick I could buy a backup T3 and limp along come Armageddon. But if I do switch - and my T3 is broken - I don't want to waste money on a new/ebay Palm device just to do one hot sync. If Palm blows up, I don't want to be left holding just my dick in my hands!

"Hey, listen, I want somebody good - and I mean very good - to plant that gun. I don't want my brother coming out of that toilet with just his dick in his hands, alright?" - Sonny, "The Godfather"



RE: Doomsday Strategy?
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 11:30:29 AM #
Mine is: Sync to Palm Desktop on my OQO or Sony U series.

Come on, Gekko, you're a rich guy (so you always tell us!). Why can't that be your solution too?

RE: Doomsday Strategy?
Gekko @ 12/11/2004 1:44:38 PM #

I bought a T3 at Office Max this morning for $279. VERY VERY HARD TO FIND! However, the more I think about it - I don't really need a backup/spare T3 - it's a waste of money on general principle - so the new T3 is going back to the store.

If Doomsday comes and the Palms blow up, HOPEFULLY my T3 will still be working and I will just start syncing with Outlook as prep for my jump to PPC. I'll gamble that I can find a used on on ebay to do the 'last sync' to get everything on Outlook easily if my T3 dies before I jump ship.

RE: Doomsday Strategy?
G M Fude @ 12/11/2004 5:04:06 PM #
Why not start syncing with Outlook right now? Not necessarily with every Hotsync to Palm Desktop but as a special procedure, say, once a fortnight. Not much hassle and worth it for peace of mind.
RE: Doomsday Strategy?
Gekko @ 12/12/2004 6:53:08 PM #

PocketCopy

At the touch of a button, copy your Palm Desktop Address Book, Date Book, To Do List and Memo Pad or Contacts, Calendar, Tasks and Memos information into Microsoft Outlook Contacts, Calendar, Tasks and Notes.

PocketCopy is your quick and easy solution if you:

Are switching from a Palm OS to a Windows Mobile device and want to get your data onto your new handheld.
Want to start using Outlook to manage contact, calendar and other information.
No longer wish to use Palm Desktop Software but want access to your vital information via Outlook.
New in PocketCopy 2.0

Compatibility with Palm Desktop Software 4.1.2 and higher.


http://www.chapura.com/pocketcopy.php



RE: Doomsday Strategy?
G M Fude @ 12/12/2004 8:00:01 PM #
Good find! Looks to be a nice app.

RE: Doomsday Strategy?
Gekko @ 12/12/2004 8:09:07 PM #

I just found the "Switch Sync" feature on the Palm T3 CD which lets you jump back and forth between Palm Desktop and Outlook. It's buried in the CD but it's there. I did a test sync with Outlook which worked fine for Contacts and Memos - BUT Memos were truncated at 30K in Outlook whereas Palm Desktop/T3 Memos will give you 32K. Also, my Calendar/Datebook events did not sync over to Outlook. I think I'd need the T3/Outlook Conduits updates for that.

I'm sticking with Palm Desktop for now - even though I used Outlook for corporate email. Desktop is simpler and cleaner and I like it better than Outlook for PIM. BUT it's nice to know that should DOOMSDAY come, there's a few ways to skin that cat - even if you have no working Palm device.



RE: Doomsday Strategy?
Gekko @ 12/12/2004 8:16:46 PM #

p.s.

It's under "Install Microsoft Outlook Conduits" in the "Discover Home" Palm T3 CD Menu. It's kind of a misnomer because this selection lets you switch back and forth between both Palm Desktop and Outlook conduits.



Linux will bring positive changes...

KultiVator @ 12/10/2004 8:25:52 PM #
Placing a Palm OS layer on top of a proven and flexible Kernel like Linux, which can quickly be adapted to run on almost ANY kind of hardware is most definitely a smart move.

It makes the Palm platform virtually hardware independent, meaning it will give hardware manufacturers a quick way to market on whatever cheapo CPU / chipset they want to throw into their SmartPhone / PDA / GPS / Media Center with TV Tuner system.

What PalmOne/PalmSource have to do, though, is raise the bar with regard to built-in core functionality. It is criminal that a modern Palm OS device does not play DivX / Xvid / MPEG4 files out of the box (without the likes of Kinoma and its required conversion process). How about a charging LED that lets you know when your device has finished charging, a simple but important omission on my Tungsten T3 (and previous T1).

Unfortunately, the standard apps and OS functionality are often what a potential customer rates Palm OS products on inside the retail store. Most of these apps have had only minor changes since the dawn of Palm OS and this does not help to win back users who perceive the look of PPC software products to be more advanced, with their increasing emphasis of all things multimedia (Just having the MediaPlayer icon visible on a PPC handheld gets many customers excited). I love the standard Palm apps, but they could use some freshening up beyond that which was going to be included in Cobalt.

Palm OS devices need to appear to offer cutting edge features, performance and above all offer more scope for users to personalise the interface. The T3 allows skinning of the D.I.A. - but only if the user is prepared to read, research and experiment a lot! Why not provide a skin-maker utility that runs on the Palm device, but can import BMP/GIF/JPG files from SD card and include some solid GFX software to create/edit/tweak the skin elements? You only have to look at the UK market for custom cell-phone wall-paper, logos, ring tones, to know this kind of functionality is a winner for a large segment of the market who want to individualise their expensive piece of handheld technology.

Other "must-haves", in no particular order...

Offer 640x480 display and beyond on "premium" model(s)
Offer a model with True WPA WiFi and powersaving features
Commission A Well-Implemented Macromedia Flash Player
A printing sub-system with built-in PCL/PostScript support (maybe based on CUPS - as we're moving to Linux)
Truely optimised graphics routines
A superb, well supported/documented Gaming API
Built-In Support for Intel/ATI/nVidia mobile 3D chipsets
Pay AstraWare.com to develop "Zuma deluxe" for Palm ;)
Supply a 'proper' cradle with every PDA
USB host functionality - allowing peripherals to be attached
A more fully featured Acrobat Reader with proper support for hi-res devices including at least 320x480 and above resolution.
A 'tabbed' next-generation "Launcher X" style prog-launcher.
The impression of using World's most powerful mobile platform.
Redeployment of the elusive WOW factor that made Palm great.

OK OK - don't flame me, but it does begin to grate that other mobile platforms have become more impressive at serving up stuff such as Acrobat PDF Documents (Current Acrobat Reader for Palm is very underwhelming given T3's excellent graphics capabilities) and Flash presentations + multimedia in general. All this and I haven't even mentioned Blackberry-style functionality!

PalmOne/PalmSource - take your best bet at where PocketPC, Symbian and RIM are going to be in 2 years time and blend in some creativity and imagination. Think DamBusters - your task is just as crucial and daunting, but still very do-able.

Struth - did I really type all that? I must care or something!

RE: Linux will bring positive changes...
KultiVator @ 12/10/2004 9:40:54 PM #
> How about a charging LED that lets you know when your
> device has finished charging, a simple but important
> omission on my Tungsten T3 (and previous T1).

Yes - this was something my second Palm (a IIIc) did very well over four years ago!



RE: Linux will bring positive changes...
joad @ 12/10/2004 10:01:11 PM #
>> How about a charging LED that lets you know when your
>> device has finished charging, a simple but important
>> omission on my Tungsten T3 (and previous T1).

>Yes - this was something my second Palm (a IIIc) did very well >over four years ago!

...and I hear that someday the Tungsten line will carry a VIBRATING ALARM!!

...oh, had it and the expense must have killed it on the T5...I guess retro is better...

From the peanut gallery

Baroque @ 12/10/2004 10:44:02 PM #
As a user who has only recently become enthused about his PDA due to buying KeySuite for my Tungsten C, (Or the paper weight as I used to call it over the past year), and a long time PIC lurker I thought it's about time to come out of the shadows.

On principal I won't buy a Microsoft powered device simply because I think they have enough money as it is, but people getting true believer syndrome about the kernel swap are missing the big picture.

Swapping out a kernel which Palmsource have to spend a lot of time maintaining for one which they don't have to spend as much time maintaining isn't a bad thing. I'd prefer that Palmsource spend their time working on higher level stuff, Frameworks, the user experience and the like, so developers can build more interesting and useful apps, than mucking around on the bare metal trying to solve problems the Linux kernel might already have solved.

If embracing the Linux kernel allows Palmsource to allocate more resources to other programming challenges then that's a good thing. If embracing the Linux kernel gets the PalmOS into the hands of new licensees and onto new devices then that's nothing but good news for users, as it's growing the size of market and making it even more attractive to developers who's apps will attract even more users.

The kernel, though critical, is probably the most boring thing about the PalmOS. I couldn't care less about what kernel it runs so long as it does what it's suppose to do and doesn't react in a fashion which causes me problems.

To users the kernel only matters if it causes problems, if this move to Linux helps solve problems then it's worth doing.

(And now it's back to lurking.)

Palm surrenders to Microsoft. Film at 11.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/10/2004 11:31:29 PM #
Swapping out a kernel which Palmsource have to spend a lot of time maintaining for one which they don't have to spend as much time maintaining isn't a bad thing.

Do you even know what a kernel is? Seriously. You think PalmSource has been distracted "maintaining" their current kernel? The fact that PalmSource is teetering, about to fall off the edge of the cliff unfortunately has little to do with their suddenly all-important "kernel".

At this point, PalmLinux is little more than a smoke and mirrors trick being used to divert attention away from the fact that the emperor has no clothes. PalmOS 6 is D.O.A., licencees are fleeing the platform and the three year old PalmOS 5 is starting to smell more and more EOL each day. But the longer stock prices can be kept above penny stock levels, the better for people like David Nagel and the rest of the Apple Dumpling Gang. It's funny how people are already talking about PalmLinux as if it had gone gold a year ago and was available for the asking! PalmLinux is VAPORWARE, folks! Do people think all it's gonna take is for a couple of junior PalmSource code monkeys to mix in a little Linux kernel here, a little PACE there, a little Cobalt there and BADDA BOOM, BADDA BING! "PalmLinux now available before the end of December, 2004!"???

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6393

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6409

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7166


Instead of circling the wagons and concentrating its limited resources on optimizing PalmOS 6, PalmSource chose the "let's all split up + see if any of us makes it home alive" strategy. "Chief" Gates of the Redmond tribe is about to start leisurely picking off PalmSource Settlers one at a time, Halo-style.

Palm could not have been more helpful to Microsoft in giving away the market. All we need now is a couple of device recalls for quality control issues and maybe another lawsuit and Microsft wins by default. And not a single arrow fired...




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: agree Baroque
Cheetah @ 12/11/2004 3:20:58 AM #
I again point to Diane's analogy of the Mac OSX and Mach UNIX. That was the right move for Apple.

RE: From the peanut gallery
stan98 @ 12/11/2004 9:38:36 AM #
Apple makes computers and is not exclusively focussed on building an OS. PalmSource is supposedly "making the OS that powers your favorite handheld". They have failed miserably in their mission, are going to ditch their own efforts and are going to slap a Palm-themed gui on top of Linux. In a real company this total failure would force the CEO to resign - not only the CFO.

RE: From the peanut gallery - 5 Stages of Grief
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 9:07:07 PM #
Apple makes computers and is not exclusively focussed on building an OS. PalmSource is supposedly "making the OS that powers your favorite handheld". They have failed miserably in their mission, are going to ditch their own efforts and are going to slap a Palm-themed gui on top of Linux. In a real company this total failure would force the CEO to resign - not only the CFO.

PalmSource is not a "real company". It's a holdout from the dot com boom, where no one actually thought about company value in terms of realistic ability (current OR future) to generate profits. Look up how much PalmSource has lost since it was "created" in the split from Palm. Look at its current IP assets. Look at its current revenue stream. Then look at its predicted revenue model for the next 12 months. It isn't pretty.

I'm happy to see that Apple exiles/refugees like Mr. Gasse and Mr. Nagel have been able to boost their personal wealth by tens of millions of dollars playing corporate games with the various Palm "companies", but in the end, they have destroyed a great platform. I expect PalmOS will become the next Newton, missed by its fanatics, but ultimately forgotten by the general public.

The outrage expressed by so many longtime Palm users here at Palminfocenter over the past few months is because so many are only now beginning to realize that the End Is Coming.

The 5 Stages of Grief:

1) Denial and Isolation.
2) Anger.
3) Bargaining.
4) Depression.
5) Acceptance.

I'm now at Stage 5, having stocked up with several UX50 and TH55 in anticipation of The End. Those working through the earlier Stages should remember they are not alone.


TVoR


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: From the peanut gallery
tompi @ 12/11/2004 10:40:43 PM #
Instead of circling the wagons and concentrating its limited resources on optimizing PalmOS 6

There are two sources of information neither of us have. First, what the reception of PalmOS 6 with its native kernel was with hardware vendors. Second, how much effort it is to replace the PalmOS 6 kernel with Linux. I suspect the answers are (1) not good, and (2) not hard.

So, PalmSource is concentrating their limited resources where it really matters: the GUI, the applications, and the development tools, and that still seems like the right thing to do. Will it work this late in the game? We'll have to see.

RE: From the peanut gallery
borgiaX @ 12/13/2004 11:43:25 PM #
I can't blame PalmSource for the fix the Palm economy is in.
Even without Cobalt, PalmOne is making money from the Tungsten E.
The debacle that is the T5 is soley attributable to PalmOne.
A TE2 with bluetooth, 32mb regular flash,32mb NAND flash and virtual grafitti could sell at $250-$300 easy. Most of the folks here would be content with such a device.
I know I would have been.

Flagrans Veritatis Studio

Ryan, this sloppy hackwork makes Palminfocenter look bad.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 12:29:27 AM #
I finally had the time to read this piece of drivel and I'm shocked to see it was put on PIC's main page. Mike Cane's latest disconnected set of ravings aren't even worthy of deconstruction. Others have set the record straight, but allowing Mike to post disinformation under the "official" stamp of PIC is a disservice to the community. Newbies will be misled and think somehow since this was posted as an "editorial", Mike must have some idea what he's talking about.

He obviously has little basic computer knowledge and even less common sense:

"The third shoe to drop was the bombshell of Cobalt basically becoming a skin for a variant of Linux!"

"Here is the fourth shoe that will be dropped by PalmSource next year: They will port the core PalmOS apps to Windows Mobile"

Ryan, please don't embarass yourself by posting more unedited* drivel from Mike Cane.


*I assume you didn't read it before it was posted. I HOPE you didn't read it before it was posted!


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Worried!
twrock @ 12/11/2004 5:54:33 AM #
I just found myself agreeing with an entire post by TVoR. Should I be scared?

RE: Ryan, this sloppy hackwork makes Palminfocenter look bad.
Strider_mt2k @ 12/11/2004 10:17:38 AM #
We're all scared.
We all are.

RE: Ryan, this sloppy hackwork makes Palminfocenter look bad.
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:55:37 AM #
Well, obviously people pay as little attention to V as I always suspected. Go back and read some of his posts just in this thread and you will see that schizo agreeing with me and then disagreeing with me.

Envy is a terrible thing. It's also an obvious thing.

RE: Ryan, this sloppy hackwork makes Palminfocenter look bad
G M Fude @ 12/11/2004 5:17:05 PM #
Great article, Mike. I didn't agree with a lot of what you wrote but hey, what law says we have to share opinions? It was obviously thought-provoking, just take a look at the growing number of comments, and teeth-gnashing from your foes!

Especially in this time of the forums being off line, it gives us something to read. Thanks for taking the trouble to put your thoughts on paper, and thanks to Ryan for publishing the opinions of an IT journo with many years in the industry. [which doesn't stop you from being wrong, Mike! :) ]

RE: Ryan, this sloppy hackwork makes Palminfocenter look bad
treo007 @ 12/11/2004 6:42:53 PM #
>>"Mike Cane's latest disconnected set of ravings aren't even worthy of deconstruction..."

That's probably true (yet again), but what exactly do your comments consist of? You seem to both be in a contest for who can come up with the most witty aside. If you had anything worthwhile to say, no one's noticing. In every thread, I have to wade through your crap to get to the comments from those of normal mental health.

Spare us all and save it.

RE: Ryan, this sloppy hackwork makes Palminfocenter look bad
hackbod @ 12/13/2004 3:52:58 AM #
"I just found myself agreeing with an entire post by TVoR. Should I be scared?"

The thing about TVoR is that he does seem to have some basic knowledge of software development, and it's clear he knows people who were at Palm around the time of the Be acquisition and is aware of some of the things that happened during it.

However, at the same time, he also clearly knows little to nothing about the current situation at PalmSource or how Cobalt works and treats his guesses about these things as facts. He has a particular axe to grind about the Be acquisition, and is able to believe some quite contradictory things when it suits his needs.

As a result, he will go along saying things that are quite reasonable, lulling you into believing him, then hit one of his particular biases or delusions and suddenly veer off into a complete fantasy land with hardly a bump to warn you.

Some examples of his delusions are his insistance of PalmSource and palmOne being the same company, and that the engineers at Be only care about building "Perfect Code".

Here, for example, we have him posting something correct that shows he has some understanding of what a kernel is and what it really means to move PalmOS to Linux. Yet elsewhere he continues to claim its all the fault of Be engineers that Cobalt doesn't already use Linux when I have pointed out numerous times that it should be pretty clear this wasn't a decision made by the Be engineers given that Cobalt today doesn't use the BeOS kernel.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

RE: Ryan, this sloppy hackwork makes Palminfocenter look bad.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/13/2004 7:53:07 AM #
"I just found myself agreeing with an entire post by TVoR. Should I be scared?"

The thing about TVoR is that he does seem to have some basic knowledge of software development, and it's clear he knows people who were at Palm around the time of the Be acquisition and is aware of some of the things that happened during it.

You're too kind, DK.

However, at the same time, he also clearly knows little to nothing about the current situation at PalmSource or how Cobalt works and treats his guesses about these things as facts. He has a particular axe to grind about the Be acquisition, and is able to believe some quite contradictory things when it suits his needs.

I take that back. My "axe to grind" is seeing PalmOS destroyed by the incompetence of the various Palm companies. The BeBoppers merely played a role in that tragedy.

As a result, he will go along saying things that are quite reasonable, lulling you into believing him, then hit one of his particular biases or delusions and suddenly veer off into a complete fantasy land with hardly a bump to warn you.

Sounds like Ali's "Rope-a-Dope"! How dramatic.

Some examples of his delusions are his insistance of PalmSource and palmOne being the same company, and that the engineers at Be only care about building "Perfect Code".

The "split" was a sham created to make a few people a LOT of money. End of story. The Be engineers are a talented group, but don't know how to "build down" to the minimum level necessary for a project. These are PDAs, not a NASA mission to Jupiter. Alien Technology™-derived Perfect Be Code is superfluous.

Here, for example, we have him posting something correct that shows he has some understanding of what a kernel is and what it really means to move PalmOS to Linux. Yet elsewhere he continues to claim its all the fault of Be engineers that Cobalt doesn't already use Linux when I have pointed out numerous times that it should be pretty clear this wasn't a decision made by the Be engineers given that Cobalt today doesn't use the BeOS kernel.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

Are you saying there no Be engineers working on the Cobalt kernel?


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Voice of Reason
Admin @ 12/13/2004 10:35:03 AM #
Hey Flanders,

Do you remember how the world reacted when Elvis debuted on TV?
Or how about a more modern example...

The simpsons, south park, oscar wilde

You're a smart guy, aren't they still well respected artists, even after causing so much controversy? It's just an opinion, always keep an open mind.

Remember the Palm laptop rumor?

millydog @ 12/11/2004 1:19:32 AM #
Does anyone remember the Palm laptop rumor that was around some time earlier this year? It was rumored that Palm may release a mini laptop with Palm OS. This would be made more possible now with a Linux Kernel.
Having to change Kernels is a little worrying from the perspective that it takes a while to develop and QA the changes while other OS's get further ahead. However, I think that this change is necessary for Palm OSs survival. It will take a few years, but this is the change that will allow Palm (Source and One) to catch up to the competition....the problem for Palm will be in ensuring that people do not jump ship in the mean-time.
I personally, would like a Palm OS mini laptop as well as a Palm OS PDA (which I already have - a T3).

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
VampireLestat @ 12/11/2004 8:54:37 AM #
It is all about branding and perception.

Palm Inc. was perceived as the inventor of the handheld; something to be very proud of. Consumers saw this and, by default, granted Palm Inc. instant credibility. When you bought a Palm Inc. device, you knew you were buying a strong product from a mainly all American company that had a team of experts that had full control over the Palm product. The hardware design, the manufacturing, the kernel development, the APIs, the marketing, the call center support, etc were all from mainly a single centralized and focused company who offered you the promise of "you buy our products, support our brand and our team and we will keep improving the handheld technology you love in a specialized, dedicated way. You need us, you know us, we need you and we are listening to you". This built the core of the Palm OS community and customer loyalty.

The split of Palm Inc. into PalmOne and PalmSource was a major error since it weakened the brand from a consumer's perspective. The advent of Palm OS Linux is weakening the brand from a developer's perspective. Palm Inc. is long gone and what we have instead is a mish mash of confusing outsourcing and licensing. Now, there are multiple companies involved (P1, PSource, Tapwave, Sony, etc) all habing their own interests and having to communicate among each other to wheel and deal. When something goes wrong or if there are conflicting interests, the consumer loses. That is why we now barely see any PalmOne flash OS updates, that is why we see more manufacturing quality control problems, OS licensing sales problems, marketing problems, leadership/management problems, etc. Consumers and developers see these problems and they don't like it.

And now comes along Palm OS Linux to save the day. Some argue: "... We had other Kernels before. So what's the beef people?". The problem is that you are reminding people you have no intention of ever going back to the focused 1 stop shop kind of company that Palm Inc. once was. In fact, going the open source route further cheapens the Palm brand and is perceived as being yet another attempt to do things on the cheap. Others will argue: "... MacOS is a layer on top of an NX OS!". My answer is that Mac OS is still less than 5% of the market. I want Palm OS to be more than 5% of the handheld market.

Some more people will argue: "... Microsoft doesn't make devices, so why are they any better?". My answer is, ironically, that is Microsoft's only weakness. The desktop market and the handheld market are different. The "we make the OS and you make the hardware" business model works well with the desktop industry because you can install any Windows XP update on any PC. You can't just slap any PalmSource upgrade on any handheld hardware; it has to be adapted and tailored by the hardware maker.

Palm Inc. should of kept their edge by remaining a 1 stop shop company. They wanted to be like Microsoft by allowing PalmSource to license the Palm OS and get others to make the hardware. What Palm Inc. did not realize is that Microsoft's branding is much stronger and you do not want to compete against them on an identical marketing battle field. Microsoft also has more hardware corporate sales channels with HP, Dell, etc. Palm Inc. should have remained focused on the home consumers.

The move to Palm OS Linux will indeed contribute to pushing developers to the safer more focused Windows Mobile OS environment. This will result in less new Palm OS programs and less updates, which will in turn result in less device sales.

The solution for me is clear

- Rejoin PalmSource/PalmOne, rebrand products as "Palm".
- Get back to work on OS 6.
- Focus on the home user market.
- Focus on only 3 products, the Treo, a high end multimedia Tungsten and a 1 very inexpensive Zire. The Tungsten needs to have things like Wifi, OLED, fullscreen DivX 30fps video and be shaped like the HP 4150.
- Open a true english speaking support call center in the US or Canada.
- Increase your quality control and practice the doctrine of "no PDA will leave the plant until its hardware is flawless - we will not be rushed".
- Give your customers support with flash upgrades (you can charge for it, we will understand!). Give them reasons to be loyal, to trust, to buy.

If PalmOne or PalmSource think that cheap smartphones, Linux and the Chinese are going to make them prosper, they better think again.

It is likely too late to make any recovery plan, but nonetheless the leadership at Palm-whatever should at least try. There are still 10 million users, a good number of developers and many retail sales channels still open. But the changes will have to come fast, very fast. Anyways, the chances of a 180 degree turnabout on the Linux migration decision are close to nil, so don't hold your breath.

I think Bill Gates once said something about by the time you realize your mistake in the computer industry, it is often too late to make changes to be able to pull back from the brink. Once the blackhole spiral grabs you, there is no escape. I invite Palm-whatever to open talks right away and bring back Palm Inc so as to set all thrusters to maximum to pull away from the blackhole's gravity...

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:57:29 AM #
>>>I think Bill Gates once said something about by the time you realize your mistake in the computer industry, it is often too late to make changes to be able to pull back from the brink.

My God! I must start using Gekko's method of repetition. It obviously works, even if not verbatim.

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
Bostonnerd @ 12/11/2004 11:01:10 AM #
Well said Vampire!!

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
tompi @ 12/11/2004 10:52:42 PM #
You seem to be assuming that if Palm just keeps everything proprietary, they can somehow manage to stay in business as they were. I don't think so. Sharp and Psion had to adapt, and so does Palm. These changes are driven both by the increasing power of the hardware and by the increased availability of software tools and environments.

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
Bostonnerd @ 12/12/2004 10:57:00 AM #
"You seem to be assuming that if Palm just keeps everything proprietary..."

Proprietary is in the eye of the beholder. I've been working with Operating Systems since the early 70s and have been hearing this thrown around almost as long. *Every* OS is "proprietary". Every time an OS (be it IBM's MVS on the mainframe, or Msoft's Windows) becomes the 800 pound gorilla in its space, the competition screams PROPRIETARY!

Every platform has its own set of exposed application development APIs and coding rules that need to be followed. If this wasn't the case, there would be chaos. There is nothing inherently "open" in Open Systems either. Whether you are developing for Linux, AIX, Solaris, etc there are platform specific rules which need to be followed. I seriously doubt that PalmSource is going to expose the "Pinux" Kernel to the open community through anything other then a (hopefully) well documented API set. This is nothing different then any other OS.

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 4:24:53 PM #
Proprietary is in the eye of the beholder. I've been working with Operating Systems since the early 70s and have been hearing this thrown around almost as long. *Every* OS is "proprietary". Every time an OS (be it IBM's MVS on the mainframe, or Msoft's Windows) becomes the 800 pound gorilla in its space, the competition screams PROPRIETARY!

Every platform has its own set of exposed application development APIs and coding rules that need to be followed. If this wasn't the case, there would be chaos. There is nothing inherently "open" in Open Systems either. Whether you are developing for Linux, AIX, Solaris, etc there are platform specific rules which need to be followed. I seriously doubt that PalmSource is going to expose the "Pinux" Kernel to the open community through anything other then a (hopefully) well documented API set. This is nothing different then any other OS.

Well said. Labelling something as "proprietary" has become a common way for those losing an argument to try and discredit the opponent. It doesn't work.

While I feel the switch to Linux is the correct direction to take PalmOS (for MANY reasons) doing so in 2005 smacks of desperation driven by marketing rather than an honest understanding of the advantages conferred by having a Unix flavored core. PalmSource seems to simply be trying to hitch its tired, sorry a$$ onto the trendy Linux bandwagon.

These days the Palm "companies" seem to both be running around like chickens with their heads cut off.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
Foo Fighter @ 12/12/2004 4:57:19 PM #
> "PalmSource seems to simply be trying to hitch its tired, sorry a$$ onto the trendy Linux bandwagon."

As I wrote...it's like Janet Jackson publically exposing her breasts in hopes of boosting her dead music career. It didn't work for her and I doubt it's going to put PalmOS back on top.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
Bostonnerd @ 12/12/2004 4:59:24 PM #
"While I feel the switch to Linux is the correct direction to take PalmOS (for MANY reasons) doing so in 2005 smacks of desperation driven by marketing rather than an honest understanding of the advantages conferred by having a Unix flavored core. PalmSource seems to simply be trying to hitch its tired, sorry a$$ onto the trendy Linux bandwagon."

:)
I really don't care what OS core they use. I'm more concerned with "what have you done for me lately", which frankly has been a $^^()_ of a lot. I'm still stuck with an almost 10 year old "Zen of Palm" layer with Fonts from the the last century, and a crappy file system. The build quality of my Treo 600 is laughable (both wife and I have been through multiple units), and I have the kludgy NVRAM implimentation to look forward to if I upgrade to a 650 (along with BT not working with integrated HF for my Audi or Acura). Not really a PalmSource issue, but that's what happens when one of the Palm twins tries to get creative.



RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
Foo Fighter @ 12/12/2004 5:19:50 PM #
> "Treo 600 is laughable (both wife and I have been through multiple units)"

Really? I've been hearing a lot feedback like this. I just switched to Cingular last week and had the opportunity to buy a Treo 600 at a low carrier subsidized price, but opted instead for Sony-Ericsson T637 because of all the poor quality reports I've heard from Treo 600 users. Brian Cooley from C|NET says he has shuffled through several units to due problems.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
Bostonnerd @ 12/12/2004 5:32:05 PM #
"Really? I've been hearing a lot feedback like this"

Really :). My wife is on her third unit and still can't get a speakerphone that works. The infuriating thing is that the "refurbs" are not being fixed (FCO'd) before they go back out. Looks like they are just recycling the defective units.

Six Sigma and ISO9000 are not in PalmOne's vocabulary...

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 6:02:18 PM #
The build quality of my Treo 600 is laughable (both wife and I have been through multiple units), and I have the kludgy NVRAM implimentation to look forward to if I upgrade to a 650...

I feel your pain. I returned my Treo 600 last January. It had the shoddiest construction quality of any piece of consumer electronics I've ever purchased. Fantastic design. Brilliant OS execution. Horrible construction, cheap parts selection and non-existent quality control. If only Sony Ericsson could be contracted to build these phones. I refused to play that game and voted with my wallet. I also won't be paying for the "privilege" of becoming a beta tester with the Treo 650, either.

A smartphone needs to "just work". The Treo lineup never has "just worked" and at this rate probably never will be reliable. Thanks, Palm.


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
Bostonnerd @ 12/12/2004 8:38:03 PM #
"Fantastic design. Brilliant OS execution"

Yes to all of the above. Palm flamed out once they got to the execution phase. They should put the whole lot on The Apprentice. Let's see, who should we fire:
* The QA team that tests to pass
* The Supply Based Management team for using sub-standard components
* The senior management team for hoping all the defects will get divinely corrected (self healing hardware brought to new levels :)

RE: Remember the Palm laptop rumor?
kpr @ 12/17/2004 9:05:30 AM #
I really like what VampireLestat said above:

>> "It is all about branding and perception."<<

>> "Palm Inc. was perceived as the inventor of the handheld; something to be very proud of. Consumers saw this and, by default, granted Palm Inc. instant credibility. When you bought a Palm Inc. device, you knew you were buying a strong product from a mainly all American company that had a team of experts that had full control over the Palm product. ... <<

>> "... focused company who offered you the promise of "you buy our products, support our brand and our team and we will keep improving the handheld technology you love in a specialized, dedicated way. You need us, you know us, we need you and we are listening to you". This built the core of the Palm OS community and customer loyalty." ... <<

the future - is there really a need for handhelds?

ardiri @ 12/11/2004 8:54:53 AM #
as a long time user and developer of handheld devices and software - my thoughts and interpretations of the handheld business has been skewed left to right and up and down - its really scary to think what the true future is.

first, there are zealots who choose a specific platform and decide that they will defend it to the death - but, .. really.. WHY? palmos, pocket pc, smartphone, symbian; its just a user interface; its about personal preference.

the real truth is when you look at the hardware; all handhelds are ARM based now, they all have high res color screens and connectivity hardware (bluetooth and/or 802.11b) - does anyone really sit down and think about this? the hardware is converging - it should be possible to run palmos on a pocket pc device and vice versa (if anyone was willing to do the HAL development work for each one).

but seriously, is the handheld on the way out?

i purchased a sony vaio u70 a few months ago; and, its putting a PC inside a very portable device. it also boasts great hardware specs and can run everything a normal laptop can run. do we need handhelds the minute these things get smaller?

i actually installed windows xp to this device (from scratch) and with its touch screen capabilities.. it could easily replace a handheld device for what i need. hell, i can even play MAME on it!

Sony Vaio U70
http://tinyurl.com/6dek9

OQO
http://www.oqo.com/

i have to say, i feel the future is bleak for anyone just focusing on handheld hardware development. as much as people hate microsoft (i dont like them myself), they'll win in the long run. the portable PC's will run their operating system. i guess, it'll just be a matter of time

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: the future - is there really a need for handhelds?
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 10:58:39 AM #
So, ardiri has not been hanging out around here lately. I've been saying the same bloody thing! I've cited both the Sony U and the OQO!

But I go one step further: While you will carry them as actual *computers*, the thing that was once called a PDA will be your *phone* and *it* will do all of the PIM functions of a PDA -- and hardly anything more (that is, it won't try to be the computer it obviously cannot and never could be).

RE: the future - is there really a need for handhelds?
tompi @ 12/11/2004 11:13:43 PM #
do we need handhelds the minute these things get smaller?

Handhelds get more powerful, but their screens still stay small and you still can't touch-type on them. So, yes, you still need special handheld user interfaces and applications.

the portable PC's will run [the Microsoft] operating system. i guess, it'll just be a matter of time

I don't see why. The Microsoft desktop UI and applications don't translate well onto handhelds, and their system and kernel are quite bloated. And it will be a hard sell for Microsoft to switch their PPC developers to an XP kernel.

With Palm-on-Linux, Palm is potentially much better positioned than Microsoft as handhelds become more powerful: they already run on a kernel that can take advantage of desktop-like handhelds, and they have a user interface that works on small, portable devices.

RE: the future - is there really a need for handhelds?
ardiri @ 12/12/2004 7:40:25 AM #
    So, ardiri has not been hanging out around here lately. I've been saying the same bloody thing! I've cited both the Sony U and the OQO!

talking about it?

pfft. i *purchased* one, with a BT compact flash card and hook it up to a stowaway keyboard (to type) and bluetooth headset (for skype). with built in 802.11b, its a perfect mobile companion.

when i dont need to do functions like that, the touch screen works well and i can play all the divx/xvid video files back at my leisure.. no compatibility options, 800x600 is perfect for tv shows.

maybe i should write a review exclusively for palm infocenter :) come to think of it, it might be nice to actually start comparing the devices out there - not everyone is suited for palm, it all depends what you want to do with the device.

    But I go one step further: While you will carry them as actual *computers*, the thing that was once called a PDA will be your *phone* and *it* will do all of the PIM functions of a PDA -- and hardly anything more (that is, it won't try to be the computer it obviously cannot and never could be).

i carry my u70 as a "handheld". because, its small. now, i'm on my way to australia, with a targus travel charger, i'll have wifi access while in my car - without having to hunk around a huge laptop (i have that with me too, for doing real work). while these devices are expensive; they are the next generation.

the only bitch i would have is the 800x600 resolution; but, when you are mobile - do you need more? just hook it up to a 1600x1200 LCD monitor when at home/in the office (which, is what i do). problem solved.

on that note - the only true pda i have ever used is the treo 600 and treo 650 - mainly for the phone and internet access to get simple information from the web.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: the future - is there really a need for handhelds?
hotpaw4 @ 12/12/2004 4:08:46 PM #
Yes. For one reason. Battery life. The resident memory footprint of the OS + primary apps and CPU "mips"/mW make a serious competitive difference in either the weight of the unit or its battery life. However small any manufacturer can crunch an XP handheld, a device targeting a PalmOS-like API on top of a lighter weight kernel can be made even smaller. And there are lot of consumers who prefer the smallest of personal electronic items.
RE: the future - is there really a need for regular PDAs? NO
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 4:52:10 PM #
Aaron, as tompi already said, the two problems with micro devices running true Windows are: [1] inadequate screen size and [2] user interface.

I think ultimately Windows DOES win, though. The UI issues are already being addressed and micro Windows laptops are starting to get the form factor right. Microsoft will be able to leverage MS Office to blow away it's competition: why would anyone in their right mind run a Word-compatible app on a PDA when they can just run REAL MS Word instead? For ultimate portability, smartphones with screens almost the size of today's PDAs will take over the niche currently occupied by PDAs.

Palm had many golden opportunies to capitalize on its OS and failed: [1] They failed to produce a micro laptop for businesses. [2] They failed to produce (or more correctly, MARKET) an MP3 player/video player. [3] They failed to adequately entrench their smartphone OS with business customers. Sony's UX50 and VZ90 pushed the PalmOS 5 envelope and started to address [1] and [2]. But now, PalmOS' window of opportunity is closing. I find it difficult to believe that Microsoft will give Palm another chance to come back.

Think about it: besides the Treo 600/650, pa1mOne has nothing going for it. And besides the rickety, three year old PalmOS 5, PalmSource has nothing going for it. Great way to start 2005.


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: the future - is there really a need for handhelds?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 5:46:22 PM #
And there are lot of consumers who prefer the smallest of personal electronic items.

And for thise people there will be any number of small smartphones to choose from.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: the future - is there really a need for handhelds?
hotpaw4 @ 12/12/2004 5:46:22 PM #
someone wrote:
> why would anyone in their right mind run a Word-compatible app on a PDA when they can just run REAL MS Word instead?

Look into the memory resident footprint required to operate MS Word, and the power requirements to refresh that much memory, or stream it into cache. Now how much does the battery have to weigh to support that for several hours?


Windows, Windows, Windows. Windows everywhere™...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 6:19:15 PM #
someone wrote:
> why would anyone in their right mind run a Word-compatible app on a PDA when they can just run REAL MS Word instead?

Look into the memory resident footprint required to operate MS Word, and the power requirements to refresh that much memory, or stream it into cache. Now how much does the battery have to weigh to support that for several hours?

How many hours does the battery on a Tungsten 3 last? 3?

The micro laptops running Real Windows™ have batteries that can last 2 or 3 hours. The VAIO U Series weighs around 18 ounces TOTAL. Once these ultraportable Windows machines drop to a better price point and get even lighter, they'll start making a lot of sense for businesses. For me, size matters, so I'd never trade my UX50 for a VAIO, but then again I've already invested the time and money needed to turn the UX50 into a micro laptop. The VAIOs of the future obviate the need for casual users to even think about software and compatibility. All Windows, all the time makes sense to a lot of companies, IT admins, and end users. Whether or not Windows technically is the best solution.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?

Strider_mt2k @ 12/11/2004 9:05:17 AM #
Is there no one at the helm of PIC anymore?

I stand aghast at people taking seriously the views of someone who routinely lowers himself to the bottom of the barrel by personally insulting folks trying to offer a differing point of view.

Mike Cane,

I don't care what you claim to know sir.

Anyone who takes a few moments to look at your track record will quickly come to the conclusion that you are either A) a developmentally challenged child or B) paying Ryan to look the other way while you treat his board like a personal playground where you are the dimwitted bully.

It's like the wild west here anymore.

I'm amazed that PalmOS industry people would even bother coming here anymore to try to explain themselves when they know what they're in for a ton of PIC-supported abuse.

If it isn't PIC discouraged, it's PIC supported.

Ryan, do yourself a favor, and populate your news area with sources who've earned the right to be published.

And take out the trash.


RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 11:02:11 AM #
Why bother to challenge what I've written when it's so much easier to vent your spleen and complain about me personally?

RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred
VampireLestat @ 12/11/2004 11:08:04 AM #
I fully support Mike Cane's views. He is right and thank you for writing about it. PalmOne-PalmSource have lost their way and both they and the consumers/developers are entitled to know about it.

Thank you Mike.

RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
TooMuch @ 12/11/2004 11:14:40 AM #
"PalmOne-PalmSource have lost their way..."

You obviously don't own any of their stock. If you had invested $1000 in Palm stock back in March you would have almost $7000 now. LOL (BTW. P1 stock is still climbing and PSRC is rebounding with the latest announcment.)

Gekko: Give us the stock info!
mikecane @ 12/11/2004 11:24:03 AM #
>>>If you had invested $1000 in Palm stock back in March

Wait a minute there. Don't give us this "March" business.

Hey, Gekko! You've the money guy around here. Tell us what the outcome would have been since the initial *Palm Inc* IPO!

RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
TooMuch @ 12/11/2004 12:07:52 PM #
Mike,

P1 stock is $39.56 today. Trying to suggest that a 700% increase this year is "bad" is putting feelings above reason. I can show you plenty of stocks that have been high at IPO and low afterwards for a long period of time before finally beginning to make people money. That is playing the market!

(By the way if you owned Palm Inc. stock for a year you would have inherited "free" split shares of PSRC stock, which is down 50% this year. But that is still a profit for the heir.)



RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
Gekko @ 12/11/2004 1:39:03 PM #

Don't confuse SPECULATION with INVESTING. Stock prices in the long run are driven by EARNINGS. Although hype, hysteria, lies, and momentum my drive a stock price up in the short term.

At the end of the day, EARNINGS are what matters. Judge the management of a company by the REVENUES AND PROFITS/EARNINGS GROWTH THAT THEY DELIVER - because that is what ultimately drives long term shareholder wealth.



RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred
G M Fude @ 12/11/2004 5:24:29 PM #
Agreed, Gekko, it's all about the profits. But Mike has got me curious now and I honestly don't know where to look -- what *is* the value of Palm now compared to the IPO? Anyone?

RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
Gekko @ 12/11/2004 5:39:48 PM #
RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
Gekko @ 12/11/2004 5:46:20 PM #

Market Capitalization (Total dollar value of all outstanding stock shares)

PALM - $53.00 BILLION (March 2000)

PLMO - $1.91 BILLION (December 2004)

PSRC - $215.00 Million (December 2004)

I'm not sure what you'll glean from this because the "bubble" had a lot to do with the original highs which were "artificial".


RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
Gekko @ 12/11/2004 5:56:28 PM #

What's scary is how small PSRC's market cap has become. I mean - it's TINY. MSFT probably spends more money on toilet paper for their employees to wipe their a$$es with every year.

And look at Nagel's stock ownership/selling relative to this tiny market cap:

http://biz.yahoo.com/t/46/3395.html



RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
Admin @ 12/11/2004 6:27:43 PM #
Whether you love him or hate him, Mike Cane makes you think and that is why I publish his work. Yes changes are coming.

Everyone should just try to be more excellent to each other on the PIC comment playground. And yes, you just caught me in the middle of watching the bill & ted movie for the 14th time.

-Ryan

RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred
G M Fude @ 12/11/2004 10:00:12 PM #
Only 14? Sheesh... :) Personally, I preferred the second B&T -- William Sadler (Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile) was great as the Grim Reaper.

Thanks for taking the time, Gekko. That does explain a lot. Maybe the dive in PalmSource does mean they have to roll the dice and try something radical like POS on a Linux kernel?

Sad fact is, some people have done well out of it. Even sadder is that you don't need to be clever to make lots of money; just be a good talker/self-promoter and an arsehole.

RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred?
TooMuch @ 12/12/2004 1:26:37 PM #
700% value increase this year! When you have a bias that must stand, you have to try to find bad news in it.

Let me continue the bias argument against P1 stock value..."But the original IPO was so high that anyone who foolishly bought it erases the profit that new investors made this year. Even if the stock climbs to 1000% increase, it doesn't matter because someone else lost money early."

If you think it's a bad investment now, sell. If you don't, stay out of the way of those of us who saw it for what it was earlier this year and have smiled as it climbed back. The run is not over yet. P1 owns the smartphone market still. When the competition can sell at par with the Treo. The run will be over.

RE: Why does PIC reward childish behavior? Where's the cred
twrock @ 12/12/2004 8:19:23 PM #
Admin: "Whether you love him or hate him, Mike Cane makes you think and that is why I publish his work."

Ryan, I've got to agree with Strider on this one. This same kind of thinking could be applied to tabloid news. It may be complete nonsense, but since it has readers, who cares about the content. It give people something to talk about. Minimally I think you should call this what it is: pure speculation based on faulty understanding, not an "editorial." Parts of it may prove to be accurate, but likely only because if you spew enough verbage, the "law of big numbers" says you'll get it right some of the time.

Then again it might have bought a new pair of shoes

TooMuch @ 12/11/2004 10:54:02 AM #
Mike,

You are a provocative thinker and writer. No doubt you have made predictions in the past that have hit the mark, but you've also missed too. In this case I think you have allowed your emotion about all this to drive you to overstate your case. In other words, "you've exaggerated."

1. PSRC bought CMS because they can get an "accelerated" tranformation to the Linux kernal for the most central market through the company's technical and human resources...smartphones. They have not delievered under the current plan and now they are taking a ventured risk on a proven highway like Apple, Sharp and others. That doen't destroy the dedicated POS user. It only reminds me of the same loyalist chatter when Jobs announced the change to OSX from the MacOS.
2. P1 is not moving to other platforms to survive the "death" of PSRC, which is not going to happen..."bought out and leveraged", perhaps..."death", no. P1 is opening to other platforms because of success. Success of P1 products and because of the success of other platform markets that still lack an equal hardware smartphone. They plan to own the "hardware" platform not "survive" the OS world.
3. As for the rationale on the exit of the CFO of PSRC...many have come and gone in underperforming companies during such seasons.
4. I have never known any consistent cusser to be a prophet. :)

Thanks for giving us something to continually talk about. You are fun! Let the debate continue. Like you...I love the simplicity of PalmOS.

RE: Then again it might have bought a new pair of shoes
Admin @ 12/12/2004 3:39:35 PM #
Mike has never been paid for writing on PIC.

Mace - 1, Moron Voice - 0

mikecane @ 12/11/2004 11:18:51 AM #
Mace @ 11/10/2004 2:54:48 PM:

I can't comment on anything specific about palmOne, but I can assure you that PalmSource has a strong and growing commitment to the Chinese market.

Loudmouth @ 11/10/2004 10:48:12 PM

And what evidence do we have for "PalmSource [having] a strong and growing commitment to the Chinese market"? The evidence presented suggests you're retreating from a market you were unable to win (for any of a number of reasons).

===================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7269

Good Lord, Mike! Are you really that gullible?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 10:54:42 PM #
Do you actually believe anything PalmSource execs say? What have they been saying about Cobalt for the past year? And where is it today? Don't be a dullard. Sheeeesh.


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Cane: What do you have to say now, Buddy?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/15/2005 11:14:12 PM #
Ha Ha Ha. Ha.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Larry Garfield chimes in

mikecane @ 12/11/2004 11:27:57 AM #
He is much more diplomatic than I...

>>>Despite the rosy marketing picture, however, there are major hurdles to a Palm/Linux marriage. Linux and Palm OS are extremely different, architecturally. The former uses bitstream files, hierarchical directories, and other Unix-style concepts. The latter uses native databases, flat-namespace data storage, and eXecute-In-Place for near-zero program load time. Making those two talk to each other is very non-trivial, and PalmSource has of course been mute on how it will accomplish this amazing feat.

>>>Of more concern is a fact that PalmSource has only been muttering under its breath; Garnet and Cobalt programs will run on Palm OS for Linux with only a "simple recompile". Assuming for a moment that it really is that simple, that still means no binary compatibility. No binary compatibility means, effectively, a different platform for developers to support, to say nothing of different accessory drivers. A fragmented platform (Garnet, Cobalt, Palm OS for Linux) is the last thing PalmSource needs right now, especially as Cobalt devices still have yet to appear. Although Dunphy hinted that Cobalt devices are coming "soon", there's the threat of Cobalt going the way of Copeland. ("Copeland" was the name of a late-90s Apple OS to replace the aging Mac OS, one that never shipped but did serve as an incubator for many Mac OS X features. The Apple/Palm parallels are uncanny.)

-- read the entire piece (it actuially *is* an Editorial; mine was suppose to be called "Opinion") at:

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/5622.html

-- OK, *now* do more of you understand?

RE: Larry Garfield chimes in
VampireLestat @ 12/11/2004 11:48:59 AM #
Of course there will be boatloads of problems. PalmSource already has difficulty releasing its own "fully mastered" in house Palm OS without problems. Both the T3 and T5 required immediate ROM updates upon release.

This Palm OS Linux decision is a ludicrous debable and I am willing to bet that most developers will not go along.

The only hope I see here is that PalmSource mentionned that OS 6 will be supported but be on ice, unless handheld makers order some OS 6 licenses. I prefer to see the status quo with OS 5 rather than see Linux enter the scene.

RE: Larry Garfield chimes in
VampireLestat @ 12/11/2004 11:56:10 AM #
And another thing... mLinux fans and PalmSource say: "We had other kernels before, this is nothing new...".

Dear PalmSource,

Oh really? When you changed kernels before, you had your programmers work on it from the ground up. When you built OS 6, you told us you built it the ground up and included BeOS technology. Point is YOU were the designers, YOU were involved at every level. With mLinux, you are no longer the designers. You even say in your open letter that you want to free up your engineer/programmer resources to focus on other things. The core, the kernel, has a major impact on problems for both yourself and Palm OS software developers at higher levels of programming. Who will we turn to for support when a kernel related problem occurs? You won't be there since you already said you would allocate your resources elsewhere.

Essentially, you are abandoning your OS, your product, your involvement at the kernel development level and your "raison d'être" (french for "reason to exist").

RE: Larry Garfield chimes in
palmato @ 12/11/2004 12:00:53 PM #
Actually I don't agree with the assessment that Linux and PalmOs are two totally different things and cannot talk to each other. Just think emulators: they are built on the top of a different OS and hardware and still manage to run pretty well the same binaries.

Palmsource needs to build an emulator that runs on the top of a linux Kernel. Instruction decode is not an issue because both would be targeted to run on a ARM chipset. API calls need to be trapped and converted to a set of specific kernel calls. Apple has done it twice and rather successfully.

The real issue is that all of the above would just be an emulator and as such wouldn't magically get all the benefits of the Linux kernel.
Take multitasking for instance. There's no way preemptive multitasking would trickle up to the palm emulation and thus allowing two palm programs to run at the same time. In order to do that PalmOSApi would need to evolve substantially.
The good news is that the PalmOS is not that complex, at least not as complex as the MacOs was at the time of the 9.0 to X transition, so there's a chance they might be actually able to pull it off.

Oh, BTW it may come as a surprise to some that the PalmOs kernel was not made by Palm (3com, usrobotics), but rather is "based on the AMX kernel [from] KADAK". Some of the limitations of the PalmOs are actually due to licensing issues.
Note: Not sure whether Os5 uses the same kernel, couldn't find any info.

However my impression is that PalmSource seem to follow events rather than anticipate them. First of all it's still unclear why OS 6.0 didn't show up in any device: is it because of technical or marketing issues?
Then using the Linux kernel may be a good idea but it looks so late and at the same time makes the product roadmap quite confusing to outside customers.

RE: Larry Garfield chimes in
twrock @ 12/13/2004 7:12:50 PM #
Ok, you get points for linking us to a Larry Garfield editorial (I always enjoy reading what Larry writes). Good choice.

But what is your point? Supposedly this was going to clear something up for me about your "editorial." I don't see the correlation between what Larry wrote and what you did. Is it because he referred to the kernel as the "base OS," so now you can refer to the Palm as a "skin for Linux" and claim that "the operating system no longer matters to them?" What Larry wrote somehow means that "PalmOS vs. PPC [issue] is now dead in the water, totally obsolete, and just so beyond the point"?

"... read the entire piece (it actuially *is* an Editorial; mine was suppose to be called "Opinion") OK, *now* do more of you understand?"

Here is what I now understand: your "editorial" was supposed to just be "opinion." Supposedly this must mean that you don't have to have any basis in reality for that which you opine.

So when is Nagel going to resign?

stan98 @ 12/11/2004 1:23:34 PM #
Failure ends at the top and Nagel failed again - nothing new in his history. He nearly made Apple a devision of IBM and was one of the main players leading to the near disaster in '97. And - he is doing it all over again - while greedily counting his millions.

At Apple, to quote Jim Carlton, "lacking the sense of urgency to get products shipped out quickly", Nagel is shouldered with the blame for the Copland OS death march. Damn right.

Unfortunately to become a CEO, you only need the right motivatioin (greed), the right friends and the capacity to shut up. Were it based on past success (gigantic failures in Nagel's case) or resumes, this guy wouldn't get a job as a volunteer.

So when is Nagel going to resign? Or can maybe Microsoft hire him?


Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?

Gekko @ 12/11/2004 3:16:42 PM #

Thanks to Nexus7 at Brighthand...

Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
Going the way of EPOC?
By Tony Dennis: Saturday 11 December 2004, 12:36

ALTHOUGH THE RUMOURS haven't been confirmed, it seems highly likely that PalmOne is contemplating a Windows version of its popular Treo wireless handheld in order to keep corporate customers happy. Now the other half of the former Palm – PalmSource is buying into Linux. Could this spell the end of the Palm OS?

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=20174



RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
Gekko @ 12/11/2004 3:19:10 PM #

Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
Going the way of EPOC?
By Tony Dennis: Saturday 11 December 2004, 12:36

ALTHOUGH THE RUMOURS haven't been confirmed, it seems highly likely that PalmOne is contemplating a Windows version of its popular Treo wireless handheld in order to keep corporate customers happy. Now the other half of the former Palm – PalmSource is buying into Linux. Could this spell the end of the Palm OS?
It all looks remarkably like the sad demise of EPOC – the OS which the Psion range of handhelds employed. When Psion unceremoniously dumped the Revo, only the NetBook carried the EPOC tradition on. And Psion Teklogix has since famously swapped over to Windows – again under pressure from corporate customers.

The PalmSource deal with China MobileSoft looks very interesting indeed. It appears that there will be two outcomes. Firstly, PalmSource will create a version of Linux which basically has its familiar UI (and probably application suite too) running on top of a Linux OS for use on mobile devices.

The second outcome is more interesting in that PalmSource is suggesting that it could produce a mobile version of Linux that is so small it can run on regular mid tier handsets (featurephones), not just top end models (smartphones).

Where does that leave the Palm OS? Pretty dead, because PalmOne can sell more hardware if it goes Windows Mobile and PalmSource can sell more licences if it goes Linux. Especially since Mobilesoft is already in the world's largest market for cellular – China. Is this RIP palm then? µ


RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
Surur @ 12/11/2004 3:34:49 PM #

This raises an interesting question. Would the Treo running on Windows Mobile have the palm apps, or just use the pocketpc apps. Could Cane be right!

But surely not, else it would still have all the same problems ie. not being outlook compliant.

Surur

RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
Admin @ 12/11/2004 7:18:07 PM #
huh, I just had the same thought after reading that piece! I am working on a column about everything as well.
RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
Foo Fighter @ 12/11/2004 7:23:30 PM #
Heh...well I certainly agree that things are looking pretty bleak right now. As I wrote in my article, this is going to go either way; PalmSource succeeds in creating the most exciting and innovative mobile platform on the market...or PalmOS goes down in flames. Frankly right now now I'm leaning towards the latter.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
Sleuth255 @ 12/11/2004 10:29:53 PM #
Sigh...

PS won't release their software on the M$ platform. Their move to OpenSource proves that. Linux is the M$ opposition folks.

Here:

The Chinese market alone will be huge. In case anyone hasn't noticed, China is the largest developing economic power on the planet. China has more people then all the Western nations combined.

We also all (should) know that China believes Microsoft software is bad for their country so they are solidly behind Linux in all it's aspects. PalmSource's merger with a Chinese company proves they have their sights solidly set on this sector. M$ can't play here folks! PS on Linux makes perfect sense in this respect. It's an incredibly saavy business move IMO.

One only needs to look around a bit to see this: Where is IBM, Novell, Oracle, EMC? Linux and OpenSource. Anyone played with the Novell Linux Desktop lately? For $35 you get a winblows replacement complete with Office compatible applications and an Outlook client that won't get nailed by every virus that written by geeks working all night, buzzed out on Mountain Dew and M&Ms that have "Kill Bill" written on a big posters above their computers to help drive them on. M$ is the establishment to these guys. You're either with M$ or against M$ and Linux is the rallying cry for those who are against. Now, PS adds their capabilities to this growing shift. Their market awaits: China.

As far as PDAs go, I'm afraid we Americans will be left with M$ because that is what we wished for. Like sheep, we have been sold.

Me, I'm gonna have to learn Mandarin so I can use the next generation of PDA's....

RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
pmjoe @ 12/11/2004 10:56:31 PM #
Why in the world would you buy a Windows Treo when you can get a Palm OS one?!?!? Talk about the stupid things PalmOne is doing, this would take the cake.
RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo? Don't be ridiculous!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 11:08:59 PM #
Where does that leave the Palm OS? Pretty dead, because PalmOne can sell more hardware if it goes Windows Mobile and PalmSource can sell more licences if it goes Linux. Especially since Mobilesoft is already in the world's largest market for cellular – China. Is this RIP palm then? µ

The variable conveniently omitted in this blurb is the PalmOS application library. The simple fact is that with PalmOS we have the best, most varied, most stable, most intuitive collection of third party apps of ANY platform. But the native PalmOS PIM apps are an utter embarassment and should have been replaced YEARS ago. Sony tried a new PIM paradigm with their TH55, with disastrous results. A better solution would have been for Palm to simply licence the best of breed 3rd party replacement PIM apps (and other core apps like a backup program, advanced security program, etc) and add them to the ROM. Of course, that would have been too simple.

Why the he11 do you think PalmSource spent two years jumping through hoops trying to ensure backward compatibility for Cobalt?

Now if you ignored the PalmOS app library, then of course, there's no reason to stick with Palm. Not when the best hardware is running PPC.

PalmSource today seems to be a company lacking a clear vision of its future roadmap.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

The bell tolls for PalmSource?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/11/2004 11:26:55 PM #
Why in the world would you buy a Windows Treo when you can get a Palm OS one?!?!? Talk about the stupid things PalmOne is doing, this would take the cake.

Riddle me this: What if Microsoft offered pa1mOne money to do a Windows Treo 700? Or what if Sprint's many corporate clients DEMANDED a Windows variant, as their IT departments prefer an all Windows, all the time solution? Still think pa1mOne is crazy for looking at other options?

And what if pa1mOne's current OS supplier, PalmSource started looking like it would be unable to offer the kind of next-generation OS pa1mOne will need to stay competitive? Still think pa1mOne is crazy for looking at other options?

PalmSource has just taken a series of vicious blows to the head. I think this fight is going to be stopped pretty soon.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
Sleuth255 @ 12/12/2004 12:17:41 AM #
DUH! Of course P1 will do M$. Otherwise P1 will die.

RE: Is OS Palm dead as a dodo?
twrock @ 12/12/2004 8:01:34 PM #
[i]"Me, I'm gonna have to learn Mandarin so I can use the next generation of PDA's...."[/i]
Unfortunately that's not such an easy task. I've been working on it for years, and I don't think I could even handle a PDA in Mandarin. Here's hoping PalmLinux succeeds.

A MUST READ! Nagel's 2001 Offer Letter

Gekko @ 12/11/2004 6:08:33 PM #

"Newco" = PSRC

Note that stock grants are different that stock options. With grants, you get the ENTIRE stock price x shares. This is where I think this pig got his big windfall. For the record, I have no problem with executives making big money - they should - but not for shiity performance and knocking down easy targets.

Go to the link and read his deal. Excerpt below. ENJOY!

---

You will also receive two restricted stock grants (“Restricted Stock Grants”) of Palm shares. The first grant of 50,000 shares will be scheduled to “cliff vest” two (2) years after grant and will accelerate vesting upon the successful release to the market of the first Palm ARM-based OS, currently referred to as Hercules 1.0 or its equivalent. The second grant of 100,000 shares will be scheduled to vest annually at the rate of 50% per year. Except as provided herein, vesting of such awards is dependent on your continued employment with Newco. Your purchase price for the shares will equal the par value of the shares ($0.001 per share). The Restricted Stock Grants shall vest in full on the date of your involuntary termination for a reason other than Cause or death. Two years from your date of hire, we will calculate the value of your Restricted Stock Grants (150,000 shares in aggregate) based on the then current market price of Palm stock. If the total fair market value of the 150,000 shares of Palm on such date is less than $2.0 million, you will receive a cash payment on September 15, 2003 equal to the difference between $2.0 million and the fair market value of the 150,000 shares. Except as provided herein, this cash payment is also dependent on your continued employment with Newco.

http://cobrands.contracts.findlaw.com/agreements/palm/nagel.emp.2001.09.13.html



RE: A MUST READ! Nagel's 2001 Offer Letter
Gekko @ 12/12/2004 12:35:14 PM #

Nobody finds this worth their commentary?



RE: A MUST READ! Nagel's 2001 Offer Letter
Picard @ 12/13/2004 7:50:17 PM #
No.

Interesting Time We Live in

Rome @ 12/11/2004 8:31:00 PM #
A colleague once told that he was a realist. When a glass is filled up half way with water, he sees it as both half empty AND half full. That sounds good and all in theory, but in real life, that means inaction. If that’s how you look at issues/problems, you will never come out with any answers.

Palmsource made a bold move, whether you agree or disagree with the strategy. The skeptics have readily forecasted the eventual demise of Palm OS, and we have plenty of those here. The optimists have cheered and pronunced the beginning of a new dawn for Palmsource, and we have quite a few of them here as well. What we don’t have here are the so-called realists like the colleague of mine mentioned above.

My hats off to the Palmsource management for taking the road less traveled. Only time will tell if this new direction will lead to a new dawn or the end. In the mean time, things are certainly heating up in the Palm OS world.

Talks are cheap and actions are what count. I hope all the best for the Palmsource managenet, and urge them to focus squarely on executions in the next 2 years. Yes, we do live in interesting time, and let's bring on the actions.


Mike Cane, the racist and non-PDA expert

Picard @ 12/12/2004 1:29:37 AM #
Picard, I am not going to ban you but please stop slandering my readers. There is no room for racism from anyone on PalmInfocenter. I am not warning you again.

Please have respect, he is just sharing his opinion, just like you share yours about windows.


RE: Mike Cane, the racist and non-PDA expert
Gekko @ 12/12/2004 12:31:33 PM #

Ho ho ho. Patel? Ravadam Patel?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104348/



RE: Mike Cane, the racist and non-PDA expert
Picard @ 12/13/2004 7:25:01 PM #
Ryan aka Admin, what was wrong with my message? Mike does not know about Linux Kernels, and I pointed it out

By the way, you say you don't tolerate racism, yet Gekko is calling me Patel........it's like NIGGGER, but for Indian people.

How do you tolerate this? BOYCOTT PALMINFOCENTER especially if the quality of the articles are of Mike Cane's quality

Ryan, I think you shouln ban this Picard idiot
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/13/2004 7:47:39 PM #
Gekko is calling me Patel........it's like *******, but for Indian people.

Can't believe someone would post that in 2004.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Mike Cane, the racist and non-PDA expert
Gekko @ 12/13/2004 7:52:25 PM #

"Patel" is a very, very common Indian last name. Go rent Glengarry Glen Ross.



The first two shoes dropped on Mike's head

Scott R @ 12/12/2004 8:56:11 AM #
I think Mike is just lashing out because his platform of choice has a very uncertain future. The fact that his facts are mostly all wrong is not so important. Just read this article with the understanding that it's an article by a Palm PDA *user* who is unhappy about a future where the Palm OS may be no more and Microsoft will burden us with their poorly developed GUI and you'll be able to better appreciate whatever value may lie in this rant piece.

Scott

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: The first two shoes dropped on Mike's head
Sleuth255 @ 12/12/2004 9:31:54 AM #
Well, Mike's review, like most of his comments in general, is thought provoking and well written. If you don't agree, just count up the comments that have been posted. As an editorial, you can't ask for more. Nicely done Mike.

I can't help but to add, however:

There is already a competitor to Outlook and it's not Palm Desktop.

It's Novell (Ximian) Evolution with the Exchange connector.

In the immortal words of Brian Adams:

They'll (Microsoft) be the first against the wall when the revolution hits.

The revolution comes, and it is Linux. Today, this OS is where Windows 3.0 was in terms of plug-and-play compatability. You still have to do a bit of scripting to get everything working. In terms of stability and capability however, it rivals XP. Imagine doing an entire installation and never having to re-boot.

The entire world is working on Linux. That's the very definition of OpenSource. Under this development model, Plug-and-play functionality will come much faster than Microsoft's first stable version of windows came (Windows 2000).

Oh.... and its free.

PalmSource didn't screw up here. I look forward to Linux based PDAs!

RE: The first two shoes dropped on Mike's head
Surur @ 12/12/2004 9:46:39 AM #

As the two platforms have achieved equivalence in bugginess, battery life and memory usage, why dont palm developers make a Palm skin for pocketpc's. It may be very easy (look at wisebar advanced and PPX) and will make palm defectors happier, while they enjoy higher resolution screens, better wireless and more peripherals (and a future).

Surur

RE: The first two shoes dropped on Mike's head
svrontis @ 12/12/2004 6:18:54 PM #
I think the only uncertainty about p1's future is this: how many more losses is M$ prepared to suffer on WinCE before the beancounters will pull the plug on it.

RE: The first two shoes dropped on Mike's itty bitty head
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/12/2004 7:19:39 PM #
I think the only uncertainty about p1's future is this: how many more losses is M$ prepared to suffer on WinCE before the beancounters will pull the plug on it.

Why would Microsoft shut down PPC just as its competition (PalmOS) appears to be in the final stages of self destruction? As of late 2004, PPC is supposedly gaining marketshare and has had probably between 5 - 10 times the number of new devices announced recently compared to PalmOS. PalmOS, on the other hand, has had massive financial losses in 2004, is losing licencees, has ZERO devices shipping with its new OS one full year after its release, and has been forced to try to rewrite its OS from the bottom up. Indeed.

PalmOS: "The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades..."


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The first two shoes dropped on Mike's head
svrontis @ 12/12/2004 7:48:33 PM #
> Why would Microsoft shut down PPC just as its competition (PalmOS) appears to be in the final stages of self destruction?

Because M$ has been bleeding red ink on WinCE for years now. Sooner or later, the beancounters will get to do what they have been trying to do to WinCE for a while now - terminate it, with extreme prejudice.

The real question is: how much longer can the beancounters be held at bay?

Special Note

mikecane @ 12/12/2004 2:16:54 PM #
My God! I've been offline for 24 hours and the total number of Comments here have DOUBLED. I'm not online today, just popped in for a quick look -- I don't even have time to scroll through the messages for a quick scan! Will resume the badinage tomorrow.

RE: Special Note
mikecane @ 12/13/2004 2:23:32 PM #
I've dumped all this stuff to my TE to read in D2G. I'm on my second hour of just reading. It seems I'm not really much needed here to respond, other than to offer myself up for a burnt sacrifice!

The Yes Flip Covers!/No Flip Covers thread was a good diversion and is emblematic of all the other posts, actually...

...and more on flip covers
twrock @ 12/13/2004 6:37:10 PM #
C'mon Mike, don't be so serious. We're just having a little fun before Palm completely dies and we no longer have some place to and throw random insults at each other.

But really, how many more people with some actual knowledge and experience have to point out the flaws in your "editorial" before you accept that maybe there is a thing or two you didn't get right?

It's kind of like someone showing up in the middle of a full blown water balloon fight wearing a tuxedo and trying to get everyone's attention to make an announcement that he wants to stay dry. Dude, your gonna get soaked!

You jumped right onto the biggest bomb shell PalmSource has dropped in a while. We were already in full swing and yours was the next "forum" for us to continue to unload. And I should thank you, 'cause I'm having fun.

Your editorial "was a good diversion and ... emblematic of all the ... posts" it generated.

RE: Special Note
mikecane @ 12/15/2004 2:16:38 PM #
>>>But really, how many more people with some actual knowledge and experience have to point out the flaws in your "editorial" before you accept that maybe there is a thing or two you didn't get right?

Thing is, EVEN WHEN I AM RIGHT, none of you care to admit it.

I nailed Palm buying Handspring. "Oh, people have said that for YEEEEARRS" is what everyone said. Thing is, *I* didn't. And I called the year.

All that being said, I stand by what I wrote. Just make sure all of *you* remember each and every word as they come to pass. And then come back here to say so!

Anyway, I now see this is fast approaching 350 Comments. I'm still not halfway through the app *250* I synced over to the TE to read. Looks like I will have to suspend reading and sync everything over tomorrow and start again...

RE: Special Note Indeed
Strider_mt2k @ 12/15/2004 2:33:41 PM #
Perhaps a bit more of a professional attitude and kinder treatment of your fellow enthusiasts would have garnered you the recognition you so desire.

As it was you acted like a crank and were written off as such.

Never to late to start again tho. Usernames change easily enough.

Some more than others.



RE: Special Note
twrock @ 12/15/2004 5:45:22 PM #
"Thing is, EVEN WHEN I AM RIGHT, none of you care to admit it."

Ok, yes, I agree, you definitely have gotten some of things right. I will readily admit that you have gotten more right than I would have if I have attempted to predict what was going to happen with Palm. The only thing I have "predicted" was Palm's eventual demise and PPC eventual success. But who hasn't! And that's a prediction I'd love to be wrong at.

Of course I wouldn't be so "bold" as to stick my neck out quite that far unless I was really sure of why I was doing it and how likely I was going to get my head cut off by doing so.

Some of us are just giving you a hard time because we are bummed about "our" Palm dying out. We want to not be disappointed and have to watch M$ win. I'm still in the "denial" stage about this, and I'm trying to set myself up to be let down softly if it really does come true.

Somehow seeing the Palm core apps running on a Window PPC would look like dying without any dignity left.

RE: Special Note
Surur @ 12/16/2004 6:51:34 AM #

Conspiracy theory alert!

Maybe Palmsource/Palmone is planning to go out with a bang by delivering the slowly reducing palm population in one go, instead of by slow attrition, and to do this by offering the Palm experience (Apps and Launchers etc) on Pocketpc. They may not care AT ALL for 3rd party apps, saying most people dont install 3rd party apps in any case.

A big bang and a nice conspiracy theory, aint it :)

Surur

Lack of credibility

Mindkandy @ 12/12/2004 6:54:03 PM #
Even keeping in mind that Mike Cane's "article" is an editorial and therefore need not have any relationship with facts, there's still no excuse for making things up.

Let's look at one claim: "Then earlier this week, PalmSource announced the departure of its CFO, specifically mentioning licensing issues in its press release. "

And compare it with the actual news release here: http://www.palmsource.com/press/2004/120204_alwood.html

Notice there is NO mention of licensing issues at all, not generally or specifically.

RE: Lack of credibility
Gekko @ 12/12/2004 7:26:44 PM #

go smoke another doobie

"Based on his conversation with the company's chief executive, Dave Nagel, last night, Friedman wrote "there was nothing 'special' to motivate this resignation."

However, he added, "At this stage in its life cycle, PSRC requires management with telecom-specific relationships and business development skills that Wood was unable to provide," for which reason he thinks the company is targeting a new CFO with a telecom pedigree.

He also suggested that Wood's departure might have arisen from contentions related to unsuccessful licensee negotiations.

"We believe that one of PSRC's major licensees known to have exited the market was not bound by a top-up obligation, which we had been led to believe by the prior management," Friedman wrote in a research note Friday."

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7359

RE: Lack of credibility
Admin @ 12/12/2004 8:22:08 PM #
sounds to me like he didn't do all he could to keep sony around, or maybe acer... who knows
RE: Lack of credibility
Gekko @ 12/12/2004 8:26:30 PM #

Woody was simply the FALL GUY for Nagel.



RE: Lack of credibility
Nycran @ 12/12/2004 8:34:31 PM #
I believe this comment made earlier is all that is relevant:

"Proverbs 29:18 says that where there is no vision, people perish."

The PDA market is completely lacking vision. When the gadget lover that I am can look around at the latest devices from HP, PalmOne, Nokia, Sony, etc and the most inspiration I get is from the Tapwave Zodiac it's indicative of something.

Think about it. When the original palm came out, it was revolutionary and cool When the series 1 iPod came out, it was revolutionary and cool. What PalmOne and PalmSource need is a BIG dose of inspiration. As a consumer I couldn't give a rats ass about the operating system or the GUI. It's all about 'cool'. Somebody make me something cool.

RE: Lack of credibility
Bostonnerd @ 12/12/2004 8:54:19 PM #
"We believe that one of PSRC's major licensees known to have exited the market was not bound by a top-up obligation, which we had been led to believe by the prior management," Friedman wrote in a research note Friday."

Oh great...so the "Street" was walking around thinking PalmOne had a long term lock on Sony, and then Sony says see-ya, I'm out of here. Time to add Nagel to my list of candidates for The Apprentice in another post. Say what you want about Msoft (or Steve Jobs for that matter), but at least those companies aren't being run by unsupervised children.



RE: Lack of credibility
Bostonnerd @ 12/12/2004 9:10:37 PM #
Meant PalmSource.....that's what I get for posting while home with the Flu...

RE: Lack of credibility
Mindkandy @ 12/12/2004 11:42:00 PM #
Gekko, you are not quoting anything from the news release.

You are quoting what someone thinks the change in CFO means.

In other words, you proved my point.

Awesome Thread

gavinfabl @ 12/13/2004 5:54:54 AM #
Hello

I have just read all 256 comments , and its very interesting stuff.

I moved from my T3 to an HP 4700 (vga device, windows mobile) after testing the T5. I actually liked the T5, but the hardware cannot compete against many Windows Mobile devices. Also, there is an endless array of accessories.

Windows Mobile is different to palm os. It has one or two quirks, but just like palm os its very customisable. Whilst I have a new ipaq, I would have hated to use the older models. Probably sluggish etc.. But the new one's are not slow.

Anyway, there's enought rants and raves about both. The thing to remember is the real working environment. Outlook exists and is used. Therefore products need to be compatible for business users and a smaller percentage of personal users. Which market is more important ? Just look at the Blackberry.

My view is that I don't won't a T6 but I do want a better Treo 700 to take on WM2003SE. But why not a T6? Simply there are small computers running Windows Xp. There is very limited life for a T6.

HP and Sony have worked out how to make batteries last. My 4700 goes between 8 hrs - 13 hrs on a charge.

So do all our rants and raves really matter? Probably not. Microsoft will probably tweak Windows Media Centre XP into an PPC.

Palmone has a tough life ahead. I hope it succeeds. Competition is really healthy.

But if Palmone can make a fashion device like Apple, this might help turn aroud their fortunes.

And in case anyone still wonders - I respect palmone and ppc devices. But PPC wins but a large margin .

Oh yes, Mike C - Beautiful article. :-))

HP 4700. Previously every Palm from m500 to Tungsten T3.

www.clieuk.co.uk/gavin.html
gavin (at) pda247 (dot) com

Remember OS/2?

pdadoc @ 12/13/2004 8:59:29 AM #
For those of you old enough to remember, OS/2 was a far superior OS to Windows 3.x when OS/2 2.x came out. Why did it disappear into "niche-dom"? Many will say it was poor IBM marketing. Others will say it was anti-competitive MS practices. I will give 2 reasons:

1- It didn't run the Windows apps most people used as well as Windows did --- sometimes not at all.
2- Limited availability of peripherals with =stable= device drivers.

What does this have to do with PalmSource? The PalmOS does not suffer from Problem #1. In fact, if anything, PocketPC has this problem. This is also why PalmOS has hung in there longer than OS/2 did. However, PalmOS does suffer from the device driver issue. If not enough people write stable device drivers for your OS, you are doomed. This is why 3rd party cards for WiFi are so scarce. Palm/Linux should help but it may be too late to prevent PalmOS from going into "niche-dom."

__________________________________
Tom Wessel
TLA Software - Attach to Hand Mail
http://www.tlasoftware.net

Comment and Stuff

twizza @ 12/13/2004 10:19:06 AM #
Hey Mike;
You have made for a nice read in the comments section. Glad to see people coming out of the woodwork for differnt opinions and views. My views are on BargainPDA.com now. Check it out as I think it balances out your article and looks at things from a less "sky is falling" point of view.
Here is the link
http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2336

Also, does this mean we don't get the PPC vs PalmOS article? I was looking forward to that read too.

antoinerjwright.com

RE: Comment and Stuff
Admin @ 12/13/2004 10:31:48 AM #
Do you think we need one?
RE: Comment and Stuff
gavinfabl @ 12/13/2004 10:47:54 AM #
Out of the woodwork..

Very true, I rarely reply but this was a good one.

PPC vs Palm would be interesting. A few years ago Palm would have won easily. Now the PPC software has caught up.

You can have nearly any program cross platform.



HP 4700. Previously every Palm from m500 to Tungsten T3.

www.clieuk.co.uk/gavin.html
gavin (at) pda247 (dot) com

RE: Comment and Stuff
twizza @ 12/13/2004 11:25:41 AM #
I dont think that it is needed, per say. But the fact that Mike C did say that he would have one did have me looking forward to it. If it is not needed Ryan then dont worry about it. I just am in the mode to read a lot I guess.

antoinerjwright.com
RE: Comment and Stuff
a3 @ 12/13/2004 2:20:17 PM #
Go to C|net. They use to have an excellent article comparing PPC to Palm on every major feature and then summing all up.

____________________________________________________
Current fan of a 480x640 tablet shaped Palm with built in BT+Wifi for less than US$400
RE: Comment and Stuff
twizza @ 12/13/2004 3:41:02 PM #
a3: CNet's reviews are usually ok, but they do more glazing than all out reviews that you would see at PalmOS and WinMobile sites. My reason for asking Mike for his was basically because he did say around the time I finsihed my article about the rx3715, that he would also have one. I wonder though, how much of that article played into this one.

Honestly, I could see palmOne doing WinMobile, just not as another entry into the market. The rumor of them doing a Treo-like device for Dell seems to me more like what they would do. Also, I think palmOne has been extremly patient with PalmSource. It seems to me that they may have wanted the T5 to be their first low end Cobalt device. But seeing how hardware plans can finish before software ones, that cannot always happen.

Also, PalmSource is playing the role of getting a plan B. If it happens that Cobalt fails, then they will have this to fall sideways on. I do think that in the short term, PS will be operating under some really hard issues trying to float one OS style over another's and then also support Garnet and Cobalt. Stretching a bit thin perhaps.

antoinerjwright.com

We all need to get out a lot more

Louis Berk @ 12/13/2004 1:06:27 PM #
Reading through the collective sturm and drang here expressed for and against Palm leads me to conclude that we do need to get out a lot more and reconnect with the human race.

Firstly, let's face it, who really give a flying eff about the future fortunes of Palm apart from its employees and investors? If the company makes a wrong decision and sinks without a trace, the world will in fact keep on turning and its impact will be hardly noticeable except to a limited number of people.

I've been a loyal Palm user since 1995 and I feel that in the main the products have delivered on their promise. I wanted and still have (in the shape of my Treo 600) a very simple to use device which gives me instant access to personal data and is a snap to synchronise with my PC. However, let's face it, the Palm apps and desktop are hardly groundbreaking, so much so that in fact there are better third party apps for nearly every delivered app in the Palm platform. So, I can't see why anyone would be happy to get these largely limited apps on any other platform apart from Palm.

I don't think the Windows Mobile platform is ever likely to fill the niche for a simple, portable personal organiser - it is way too complex for the average user to master - so personally I think Palm should stick to its knitting and accept that it is a mass market, very simple OS best suited to the majority of users out there (who would probably self-combust if they ever came close to contact with the Unix kernel).

However, if as a result of poor product management of devices and even poorer planning and execution of the operating systems the Palm platform sinks without a trace - well, I'll get over it and move on to the contender that best fills the vacuum (along with about 95% of the Palm user base).

Heck, I may even go back to my filofax and reconnect with using a proper pen!

Louis

PS My favourite Eagles track is "Get Over It", seems kinda relavant here!

RE: We all need to get out a lot more
tompi @ 12/13/2004 11:20:17 PM #
However, if as a result of poor product management of devices and even poorer planning and execution of the operating systems the Palm platform sinks without a trace - well, I'll get over it and move on to the contender that best fills the vacuum (along with about 95% of the Palm user base).

A paper based organizer can't handle what I'm doing with my Palm.

And the sorry fact is that, right now, there are Palm and PPC. I wish it weren't so, but that's the way it is. If Palm goes out of business, one of two things may happen. Either we get something much better than Palm and PPC has serious competition. Or, we are left with only PPC and its all-encompassing Windows tie-ins. And that does matter, to users and developers alike.

Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/13/2004 1:12:26 PM #
Clueless Cane™, you'd better start heading for Mexico NOW. If Mistress Hackborn ever finds her lapdoggie (you), she's gonna open a can of whoop ass on you! Say "Adios" to your cojones, Amigo. She'll be serving them up in the PalmSource cafeteria, Hannibal Lecter-style!

I hope you spent the weekend in the library reading about kernels, system architectures and basic PalmOS coding principles. Right now you have ZERO credibility on PIC, Clueless Cane™ - everyone can see you're just a loudmouthed, ignorant boor. I know I shouldn't kick you when you're down, but it's just too much fun. I can't wait to see Ska come back to take a few shots at your battered carcass!

It will be hilarious to see whether or not you just S T F U and disappear for good or if you actually come back and try to defend your mindless drivel here. Your recent silence has been deafening.

Dumba$$.

;-)

Of couse you also just managed to generate some of the best threads here in the past year, but let's not mention that.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Admin @ 12/13/2004 2:00:13 PM #
The world is full of crashing bores - Morrissey

check out the song on itunes sometime

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/13/2004 2:13:31 PM #
Have you heard from Mike recently? I'm starting to get worried?

http://tinyurl.com/3q4p4

;-O


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
mikecane @ 12/13/2004 2:54:35 PM #
Unlike this cretin who has used multiple handles on PIC (no doubt to save *himself* the embarrassment of having to actually *account* for his shrill drivel over the past 2-3 years), some of us *do* have lives and responding to posts here come lower on the To Do list that some of you would probably like. Tough. Get your own lives.

I'll be back to reply when I have the time.

In the meantime, please feel free to gnaw on each others flesh as you debate flip covers.

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Gekko @ 12/13/2004 6:59:07 PM #

Voice comes across to me as a skinny, pasty, whiney, attention-deprived, wise-a$$, know-it-all, little kid you was always raising his hand with the answer in class who everyone loved to bully when you were in school.

All of his pedantic, verbose, smart-a$$, know-it-all, bold and italics-filled child-like obsessive rants reveal the true person behind the words.

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Gekko @ 12/13/2004 7:09:09 PM #

Yes! MikeCon has to get back to WORK!!! Here's a pic of him caught in action on a typical work day:

http://www.doublemirrors.com/nyc/homeless.jpg



RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
svrontis @ 12/13/2004 7:27:12 PM #
Gekko, whenever I see something like that I always remind myself: "There but for the grace of God go I".

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Picard @ 12/13/2004 7:39:23 PM #
The voice of reason says this

<<< Clueless Cane™, you'd better start heading for Mexico NOW. If Mistress Hackborn ever finds her lapdoggie (you), she's gonna open a can of whoop ass on you! Say "Adios" to your cojones, Amigo. She'll be serving them up in the PalmSource cafeteria, Hannibal Lecter-style!

I hope you spent the weekend in the library reading about kernels, system architectures and basic PalmOS coding principles. Right now you have ZERO credibility on PIC, Clueless Cane™ - everyone can see you're just a loudmouthed, ignorant boor. I know I shouldn't kick you when you're down, but it's just too much fun. I can't wait to see Ska come back to take a few shots at your battered carcass!

It will be hilarious to see whether or not you just S T F U and disappear for good or if you actually come back and try to defend your mindless drivel here. Your recent silence has been deafening.

Dumba$$. >>>

The administrator of PIC, Ryan, replies like this:

<<< RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Admin @ 12/13/2004 2:00:13 PM

The world is full of crashing bores - Morrissey

check out the song on itunes sometime. >>>

So Ryan, look at what he said about Mike. LOOK AT HOW YOU RESPOND, so nice and friendly, like nothing happened. Why didn't you censor his article as you did mine? You obviously have double standards, and as a webmaster, you are losing credibility, especially when you DELETE my post critizing Mike Cane, and put me down about it.

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Admin @ 12/13/2004 7:53:23 PM #
So what are you trying to say Voice???
RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Gekko @ 12/13/2004 7:55:46 PM #

svrontis - WRONG. We are the masters of our own fate.



Picard: just 4 u
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/13/2004 8:06:33 PM #
So Ryan, look at what he said about Mike. LOOK AT HOW YOU RESPOND, so nice and friendly, like nothing happened. Why didn't you censor his article as you did mine? You obviously have double standards, and as a webmaster, you are losing credibility, especially when you DELETE my post critizing Mike Cane, and put me down about it.

1) Cane and I are joking with each other, as anyone with an IQ over 50 understands. It seems you don't understand that.

2) Read Ryan's response to me. It was a pithy reply telling me to knock it off.

3) I don't see anyone but you posting the "N word" here at PIC.

4) The moderators can delete anything they want, ZERO explanation necessary - it's their site. Don't like it? Then LEAVE. All I see here is you posting a lot of whiney messages. You whine like a two year old. Great contribution, Bubba.

PLONK.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Admin @ 12/13/2004 8:58:44 PM #
Honestly I've made misteaks in the past about deleting comments and such, but I'm willing to chill if you are.

You're all nothing but a bunch of manic street preachers anyway

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
G M Fude @ 12/13/2004 9:40:27 PM #
>You're all nothing but a bunch of manic street preachers anyway

Hey, that's only my day job!

>Honestly I've made misteaks

Very witty!

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
atrizzah @ 12/14/2004 9:50:55 PM #
Holy cow, are any of you adults? I seriously hope not. I leave this site for a couple years and come back and all I see is childish fighting, ridiculous uninformed comments and articles, and immaturity. It's sad that people even take all of you seriously, all though I have my doubts if any of them are older than high school age. It's truly surprising that Palm employees even bother to post here. The Palm community is near death, and so is Palm Infocenter. I'm off to see if there's anywhere adults discuss handhelds...

Peace Out
Alan
RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
TMann @ 12/15/2004 1:48:59 AM #
I have to agree with atrizzah here, guys. I think that the tone of PIC has gotta change if you all intend to keep people coming here. It seems like EVERY thread on this website is filled with endless tirades, and caustic sarcasm. It may be all fun and games to those of you who are "regulars" here, but it makes for tiring reading for the rest of us.

I used to frequent PIC everyday when I first got my Palm, but for the most part, I've stopped visiting this site. I can get more useful information elsewhere. Sorry, but that's been my experience here, and I suspect that others out there would tell you the same.

Just my 2 cents...

TMann

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Strider_mt2k @ 12/15/2004 7:34:58 AM #
You can always stop over at www.1src.com!

Positive things happening there!
The new Podcast thing seems to be popular.

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Gekko @ 12/15/2004 9:36:13 AM #

PIC is still the best PALM site BY FAR. The only thing that will kill PIC will be the death of PALM.



RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
hkklife @ 12/15/2004 12:17:38 PM #
PIC has been here for years and so have many of us "regulars". We'll keep this site running, Ryan willing, as long as humanly possible. If there are still plenty of sits dedicated to extremely moribund platforms like Nuon, Lynx, Amstrad etc there's certainly room for PIC for years to come. I consider the banter all more or less friendly in nature and part of the overall "experience" inherent in being a diehard user of a platform. If you don't care for the PIC enthusiasm, then go to 1src or Brighthand or PDABuzz. In fact, Voice and myself (and I am sure many others would pick up the gauntlet as well) have offered to donate to the "Keep PIC alive" fund via PayPal donations should Ryan require it.

RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Hal2000 @ 12/15/2004 9:28:16 PM #
I've been here since the beginning and I'm not going anywhere. This site is great. Look at the number of total comments! Palm dying is like loosing a member of the family and we are hoping the Linux vitamin prescription will work. (some of us people can poweruse os5 w/o problems so I can wait.) Just don't show me your new ppc.

Zodiac2/T616
2.128 gigs under the hood.

I liked Mike's article

TwinTurbo @ 12/13/2004 5:29:55 PM #
I didn't agree with all the predictions but liked the article for the most part. You can spin it either way. The Linux news is either good or it's bad depending on your perspective. But really it doesn't even matter. Looking at it from a realistic perspective, PalmSource is in trouble and has been for some time. And they have done it to themselves for the most part. Another sad story of a market leader getting run into the ground due to bad decisions and lack of innovation.

The long term viability of Palm OS is in serious question (whether it runs on Linux or not) due to the company's inability to execute and their lack of corporate focus. Palm should have at least been what RIM is now. But they never even developed their own native PIM sync apps, let alone a corporate server product that Fortune 100 companies would eat up like the BlackBerry Enterprise Server. For the life of me I never understood why Palm did not take this path. It's not rocket science either. Just a simple product that easily connects to Exchange or Notes and then leverage the sales forces of the wireless carriers to pimp the handhelds for you. A true end-to-end solution without any crappy third party software. It turned into a 16 billion dollar market cap for RIM. And RIM is going to port their solution to Palm OS and Windows Mobile too.

So how can PSRC compete with MSFT when they can't even compete with RIM. And how is Linux going to change anything for them, especially at this late stage in the game?

Quality of PalmInfoCenter has decreased

Picard @ 12/13/2004 7:31:10 PM #
There just is no quality of Palminfocenter anymore.

I criticize Mike Cane, and the wonderful creator of this website Mr. Ryan of San Diego, California ERASES my message. Especially when I pointed out that Palm OS has had 3 kernels before this new Linux one, and because Mike is not a PDA expert

No wonder Ed Hardy ran away to Brighthand! I suppose Brighthand will be our only source for PDA information now. At least their servers can handle a messageboard

PIC -----> Censorship of messages, promoting non-PDA experts opinions, tolerating dimwitted responses from Mike and Gekko (AKA Ska)

RE: Quality of PalmInfoCenter has decreased
Admin @ 12/13/2004 8:48:17 PM #
I'll make a deal with you, I will not erase your stuff anymore if you do me one favor, go out to a record shop and pick up a beatles album use slsk if you have too. Then you can feel free to repost your thoughts if you wish.

I just wont tolerate any form of racism. We are ALL dweebs here.

btw - Ed did not run away, he had a choice and we were both pleased at how it turned out. I am good friends with him and Steve at BH.

RE: Quality of PalmInfoCenter has decreased
Sleuth255 @ 12/15/2004 9:35:34 AM #
Gekko's Ska????? LMAO! Picard, you've been spending too much time in the neutral zone.....

RE: Quality of PalmInfoCenter has decreased
theog @ 12/17/2004 2:35:19 AM #
It was said the only reason he is around is because he posts so much and contributes to the site. Now I see this is true. Oh, well... I thought the post, "We, the Suckers" was an excellent form of fiction.

Maybe Palmone (Palmsource) are Smarter than we think?

gavinfabl @ 12/14/2004 8:13:58 AM #
Somewhere a few pages back someone made reference to the fact that PPC devices were being rapidly produced.

A reply to that was Palm had many handhelds in China.

So what's the Big relevance of China.

China is / could be the next super power.

Why?

Take a look at the US National Debt. Between 40-60% (I can't remember which one, but I believe its nearer to 60%) is loaned via China.

So who owns the US? Is it China. Where is Palm investing?

Is this madness or what?

You decide.

HP 4700. Previously every Palm from m500 to Tungsten T3.

www.clieuk.co.uk/gavin.html
gavin (at) pda247 (dot) com

RE: Maybe Palmone (Palmsource) are Smarter than we think?
Sleuth255 @ 12/14/2004 3:42:56 PM #
yeah and before that in the 90s it was the Japanese that owned us....

Buy a daytimer.

oceanman177 @ 12/14/2004 9:15:00 AM #
Remember the good old Daytimer? A pen and some good milled paper. With all of the Palm One crap going on, the fun(?) and luxury of having a PDA is slowly bleeding out of the industry.

I think I will ebay my just purchased T5 and Tungsten C, take the money and buy a Daytimer.

Remember- it was not that long ago when this is all you had.

RE: Buy a rock and chisel.
Strider_mt2k @ 12/14/2004 11:18:32 AM #
Why not get a rock and chisel?

RE: Buy a daytimer.
Sleuth255 @ 12/14/2004 3:39:54 PM #
not so fast... I just downloaded last month's monthly report, updated it with d2g and emailed it to my boss while bluetooth connected via Cingular. All this while attending a Novell 6.5 upgrade class.

Tungsten T3.

Still better than a dayplanner.....

RE: Buy a daytimer.
Strider_mt2k @ 12/14/2004 4:12:41 PM #
Say it brother...

Luddites be damned!

RE: Buy a daytimer.
Gekko @ 12/14/2004 9:24:57 PM #

I'll go back to the WIZARD if I have to! They served me well from 1991-1998!

http://www.sharpusa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,79,00.html



My Treo 600 rules

dona83 @ 12/15/2004 10:24:56 PM #
Notice how the Tungsten T5 was a big step back for PDA-kind and the Treo 650 is a step forward, a small step, but a step forward nonetheless, for smartphone-kind. A PDA with almost-laptop capabilities will only be for the minority who want alternatives to a real laptop. Focus on the lower priced (Tungsten E, Zire 72, and Zire 31), and smart phones. The Tungsten T line should be scrapped and Tungsten C line be given the spot light. Don't they get it? The Tungsten C is 2.5 years old and still going strong, the same can't be said for the T series... the T5 is already outdated, while the T3 still has some product life left. As for my Treo 600, lookie, low-res screen and super slow CPU, despite it all i love it to death. I have no hopes for Palm's next PDA releases. My money's on Treo. As for Palmsource... good luck to them, I would never consider going PPC, and this Linux news seems promising, just make sure it's user friendly, just like the Mac OS X on Unix implementation, make it beautiful, elegant, and simple and people will come.

RE: My Treo 600 rules
twizza @ 12/16/2004 11:13:58 AM #
>>Notice how the Tungsten T5 was a big step back for PDA-kind and the Treo 650 is a step forward, a small step, but a step forward nonetheless, for smartphone-kind.

I agree that quality issues have made the T5 look like a blunder, but for the most part, first impressions aside, there has been a general liking of the T5 from the fan commnuity. That is a good thing. Granted, teh 650 is an even bigger success because of the need to be connected. For those who do not want an all in one solution, the T5 is a good call. It seems also that you assume that more people want smartphones than dedicated PDAs with wireless built in. I wager that it is closer to 50/50 with smartphone winning on interest alone, not necessarly execution.

>>The Tungsten C is 2.5 years old and still going strong, the same can't be said for the T series... the T5 is already outdated, while the T3 still has some product life left.

Contrary to what you state here, when I asked palmOne as to why the TC hasnt seen an update in a long time, their responce was more of "if it aint broke dont fix it." But, it is not a large seller except to those businesses who need field people with a wifi device. The TC is probably suffering from look-alike issues with teh BB, but without the functionality and a higher cost of ownership versus those BB devices. The T5, though outdated, still fits a need. As does the T3. palmOne has been in the mist of refocusing and organizing since they split from PalmSource. Chances are, it will be another model release until we see their vision executed clealy.


>>As for my Treo 600, lookie, low-res screen and super slow CPU, despite it all i love it to death. I have no hopes for Palm's next PDA releases. My money's on Treo.

This speaks more towards Handspring's development team, rather than the ineptness of palmOne. The Treo650 was in part a palmOne device, but one shuold wait until another Treo to make the evaluation about palmOne's handling of smartphones. Your needs are clearly with a smartphone, PDAs shouldnt interest you. If they did, the palmOne is either doing a bad job with smartphones, or a heck of a job with PDAs.

>>As for Palmsource... good luck to them, I would never consider going PPC, and this Linux news seems promising, just make sure it's user friendly, just like the Mac OS X on Unix implementation, make it beautiful, elegant, and simple and people will come.

The end user will not know the difference between Cobalt regular and Cobalt Linux. The front end will look the same. Those that will know and exploit best those differences will be the developers and hardware manufacurers who will use the best performing version of Cobalt for their hardware needs. There is no need to consider WinMobile, unless your hardware or sotware needs could be better met by that platform. Remain confident in the PalmOS, just because there is news, doesnt mean its bad news. Change your perception towards thinking that palmOne and PalmSource are in the mist of change and nothing looks right in that period. Look under the announcements and rumors for the point and from there you will be able to make a better decsion as to where you think the PalmOS platform is going.

My opinion, palmOne is setting themselves up to be a specific solutions manufacurer (well, I know that one for a fact), and PalmSource is looking to be a specific software solutions manager who also infulences mobile ISPs and other hardware manufacturers much the way that the big OS companies do. It is not clear if either will be successful, but it is clear that they are working towards a vision.

antoinerjwright.com

Good Quotes + Tungsten C2
kpr @ 12/17/2004 8:20:31 AM #
I like what twizza said above, especially:


>> "There is no need to consider WinMobile, unless your hardware or sotware needs could be better met by that platform."


>> "Remain confident in the PalmOS, just because there is news, doesnt mean its bad news."


My software needs are almost fully met with Palm OS. I really wish palmOne would hurry up and come out with a device that supports both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. A newer version of the Tungsten C with Bluetooth added and a backlit keyboard would be nice. So would a T5 with Wi-Fi built in.

RE: My Treo 600 rules
atrizzah @ 12/17/2004 5:17:20 PM #
I love my Treo 90, and I'd love if they would release an updated version.

Peace Out
Alan

You can't build a company on Memo Pad!

Gekko @ 12/16/2004 8:37:12 AM #

You can't run a company just selling Memo Pad, Address Book, Date Book, and To Do List!

It looks like PSRC has devoured the Palm Pilot's entire edible carcass and now there's nothing but dry bones left. What a shame.


Good News or No News...Not Sure??

superdork @ 12/17/2004 3:34:17 PM #
Just got back from reading Palm Addict's website and a guy that works at Circuit City noted that they recently stopped carrying the Tungsten C. He noted that if there was any news of a new model sku he would keep us posted.
http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2004/12/palmone_tungste.html


Siemens SX1 and Tungsten T-lets take a look

Tamog @ 12/29/2004 5:36:27 PM #
Hi,
altough I agree that Mike's editorial was a bit harsh-but lets face it, he isn't all that wrong. I bought a Siemens SX1 a few days ago(see my blog for details, will post in a few days) and was astounded by its hardware.
4MB of RAM
130MhZ TI OMAP CPU
MMC Slot
Hi-Res screen
Looks pretty similar to a Tungsten T without touchscreen!
Also, lets face it: The TT3 was produced at a PPC manufacturer. The devices aren't that diferent anymore as they were a few years ago. IMHO everything will soon be ARM-based, and the question will be:
Touchscren or not
Which OS does it run...

So much for now!

Find out more about the Palm OS in my blog:
http://tamspalm.blogspot.com

Why is Mike Cane still here?

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2005 5:23:00 PM #
Had a "normal" person posted such a ridiculous article and come back to see the above reaction to his/her utter drivel, they would have left this site in shame, never to return again.

Mike Cane not only returns to Palminfocenter but also tries to defend his clueless ravings by spewing even more drivel. Amazing.

Mike Cane: truly not a "normal" person™.


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Why is Mike Cane still here?
mikecane @ 1/8/2005 5:44:37 PM #
If YOU are the "definition" of "normal," I'll thank whatever deity that exists that I am NOT.

You poor pathetic stalker. You just can't stand it, can you? Even behind a fake name, you have no balls. You ****.

RE: Why is Mike Cane still here?
Strider_mt2k @ 1/8/2005 7:48:45 PM #
It's like that because -someone- either wants it that way, or simply doesn't give a crap.

I liken it to the homeless guy squatting in the building that's about to be torn down.

Based on that I would guess that PIC is being closed down soon.

RE: Why is Mike Cane still here?
mikecane @ 1/9/2005 10:48:04 AM #
Strider, why don't you go back to watching Disney movies. Didn't they do your bio? *Pollyana*!

RE: Why is Mike Cane still here?
Strider_mt2k @ 1/9/2005 2:45:41 PM #
Too busy watching this train wreck I guess.

Watch your speed there, Casey Jones.

Great troll

arp @ 9/14/2005 12:34:09 PM #
You even managed one of their most common spellings (kernal). Or were you talking about something totally different - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernal ?

Either way, I doubt that they will port their core apps to winmob and release them to the general public, at most they will include some of them on their own devices (t670).

--
http://www.arpx.net/article.php/top_10_palmos_applications - my top 10 palm apps

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