Comments on: Editorial: We, the Suckers

Did you take your medicine today, tompi? Mother is going to be quite cross if you didn't.

Take care, Sweetie.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

I think PalmSource would create a product no one wants. Why I buy the Palm is stability and number of apps.

His point is that Palm's simplistic main PIM apps would not be competitive if offered as standalone 3rd party apps for PPC. There are already many PIM replacement apps for PPC. It's highly unlikely that many PPC users would be interested in purchasing a port of Palm's PIM apps. On the other hand, I'm sure there would/will be a lot of interest if apps like DateBk5, TealPhone, Documents To Go, etc are ported. (And they can be.) This should be Palm's worst nightmare: pi$$ off enough developers like DateBk5's author, CES Dewar to the point that they abandon the Palm platform and start coding exclusively for PPC. That would be the kiss of death for Palm.

I'm amazed that Microsoft hasn't offered the creme de la creme PalmOS developers some major incentives to switch to PPC. Palm's much-touted app library advantage is now much less of a factor than it was as recently as in 2002. Convince a few more people like the DateBk5 author, TealPoint, etc to join others like Astraware already coding for PPC and suddenly Palm's app advantage disappears. Remarkably, Palm's recent behaviour has shown not much more than thinly-veiled contempt towards developers. The DateBk5 author and many others are not impressed.

Something's rotten in the state of PalmSource™

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Now bugger off and annoy someone else you dipsh*t...!

JLM.

You'll have to rephrase that for me to better understand what you're asking.

Anyone who has been a hard-core user of the POS core apps and then tries the MS PPC core apps can't get away from what a thoughtless, inconsistent, stupid, and ill-designed mess the PPC core apps are (I'm talking about the 4 PIMs that palmOne renamed in their, uh, honor). And all the "enhancements" available from other sources are even worse.

Two points:

1) The PPC core apps are made to work with Outlook. Bulletin: Not everyone uses OL or *wants* to use OL. Palm Desktop can compete against it. PD is made for human beings, not corporate types who are used to the Corporate Way of doing things (which is essentially Top-Down militaristic follow-orders-or-else-and-this-is-the-way-we-do-it).

2) iTunes. Look at how Apple has effectively squashed MS's amibitions in the downloadable-music space by porting one of their key Mac apps to Windows.

3) Hello! What was once *Palm Reader* was ported to PPC. (Not that that did them any real damned good; MS Reader still rules for two reasons: a) it is actually better suited to *readers*, and b) MS will allow anyone to create ebooks for it and distribute *jillions* of them for FREE!)

We shouldn't be forced to use or sync with Outlook however. I don't use Outlook as my primary PIM, although I read company mail on it's e-mail function.

I primarily stick with Palm because it *doesn't* require integration with Outlook but has a much more efficient desktop and palmtop UI.

My 0.02,

J

Get a slip case or other sort of case if you're concerned about protecting the screen.

I believe the lack of (easily removable) flip covers are simple profiteering my OEM's, by increasing the wear and tear on our unit, so that we replace them more often. And if people think this is paranoid, how do we explain the ever changing sync ports at the bottom?

And to twrock "Why in the world would anyone want to run Windows on a handheld device?" soon the pocketpc community will say "Why in the world would anyone want to run Linux on a handheld device?" Its the same question, and the answer is that while there may be superficial resemblances, they are by far not the same as their big brother OS's

Surur

Surur

http://www.senacases.com/catalog/DELL-AXIM-X50-X50v-CASES-p-1-c-313.html

GREAT PRODUCTS!!!

And to Khris, hating the flip cover on your palm so much, I hope you just removed it. It comes off rather easily if I recall correctly.

Flip covers costs cents to make, and should be included routinely, just like extra styli. Forcing everyone who want to protect the front of their device to buy expensive cases is just ridiculous.

Surur

One of the reasons I use PalmOS is BECAUSE of the basic Palm apps and Palm Desktop.

PalmOS devices are looking less and less appealing lately, what with killing off Graffiti, and only PalmOne making hardware now (and IMO their hardware is poorly designed and unreliable).

I'll probably end up switching to a WinCE device for my next PDA, but I'd buy a Palm bundle with the basic Palm apps, maybe a Palm style launcher and Palm Desktop for WinCE in a second if it was available.

This is likely the holdup on the keyboard, perhaps TO decided to not offer the several months of exclusive sales they have in the past to palmOne.

It is this attitude that is sinking Palm (both companies). Look at Tapwave - They worked WITH Sandisk to produce drivers and you can pick up a $60 card for it. If Tapwave could produce a smaller PDA-centric device with Wi-Fi built in (c'mon, pretty soon even our freaking toasters will have built-in Wi-Fi), they would put a serious hurting on palmOne's higher-end PDA sales.

That's not so clear to me. I suspect Palm just didn't have a complete, reliable WiFi solution (the TC was still a one-off solution where they had complete control of the hw/sw). It took them forever to get their own SDIO WiFi card out.

This is likely the holdup on the keyboard, perhaps TO decided to not offer the several months of exclusive sales they have in the past to palmOne.

I contacted TO and their answer was that it was just a lot harder to develop the Palm version of the driver.

Look at Tapwave - They worked WITH Sandisk to produce drivers and you can pick up a $60 card for it.

Yes, but by now, most of the hard work has been done.

In any case, with a Linux-based kernel, we won't have to guess anymore: the driver architecture is known and proven, and the drivers will be out there for everybody to see.

If Tapwave could produce a smaller PDA-centric device with Wi-Fi built in (c'mon, pretty soon even our freaking toasters will have built-in Wi-Fi), they would put a serious hurting on palmOne's higher-end PDA sales.

I doubt it: WiFi just isn't a big deal for most users; Bluetooth is far more important for PDAs. And with dual SDIO slots, built-in WiFi is even less of an issue for Tapwave.

This is not true. The low-end feature phone kind of device does not allow users to add 3rd party software, but these don't run on Linux -- they generally use some very small RTOS.

PalmOS for Linux will absolutely run 3rd party software, just like Garnet and Cobalt do today, using the same APIs that third party developers use today. From the user's perspective there will be little to no difference.

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Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

So much for homework.

BTW: Since you seem so knowledable about "Apple Software" (or is it Apple Computers - I keep forgetting) - whose makes these dandy iMac G5s? Also, why didn't HP go to these mysterious people also to be able to sell iPods? Makes you wonder.

Ts ts.

Great source for future product info. In that same financial world, Enron and MCI Worldcom were once considered great companies.

You know what is really going to be maddening? If P1 comes out with the "T5" device everyone was begging for,... but it's a PPC.

Absolutely; Linux is very much a secondary part of this. That why Linux is the -last- bullet item in the announcement.

China MobileSoft's feature phone product does not use Linux, it is designed to sit on top of the RTOS used by the customer. See http://www.chinamobilesoft.com/product/mfone2.asp for more info.

The number 1 most important part of this announcement is that we now have a product line that extends all the way from high-end smart phones down to very low-end feature phones. Neither Cobalt nor Garnet were able to address a real mass-market feature phone product, which is a part of this acquisition that is more important (at least in the short term) than the Linux announcement.

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Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

Tompi, you are VERY wrong on this issue; the Mac may use many of the same components: optical drives, memory etc but Apple DESIGNS the MOTHERBOARDS used within Macs AND uses the PowerPC G4/G5 processors instead of those with the x86 architecture. These are TWO significant differences from other PC hardware.

Yes, other companies build the computers for Apple; but it is Apple who designs their own computers and tells the contrators how to build them. If you need proof of this, look on any recent Mac; you'll find the phrase "Designed by Apple, Assembled in Taiwan".

Just as when you design and pay for a house to be built, it is you who owns the house, not the people who build it for you.

And yet you only registered recently?

Personally I feel his "We, the suckers" editorial (more like a whine) is full of useless opinions and lacking intelligent information/thought. It's a whine/rant/whatever you want to call it.

Thank-you for the great comments. One small thing I would like to correct, though, is the comment "...think that kernels did still matter and sink vast amounts of money into BeOS."

Cobalt does not use the BeOS kernel. In fact most if not all of the technology from Be that is currently in Cobalt should exist essentially as-is in "PalmOS for Linux".

That said, sure, it can be argued that 3 years ago it would have been better to have started out on the Linux kernel than the one we use now. Maybe PalmSource should have been more visionary about this decision then, but on the other hand only a few years ago there were still some significant issues with the Linux kernel. For example, it wasn't until 2.6 that a preemptive kernel was standard part of Linux, and this is an important feature for interactive and media-intensive applications.

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Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

Kinda like "most if not all of the technology from Ford that was in the Model T should exist essentially as-is in 2005 Porsche 911". (i.e. both have 4 wheels, an engine, seats, a windshield...)

Care to give us a REALISTIC timeline for when PalmLinux will magically cease being VAPORWARE and actually become available for real devices, DK? Let's see: deal gets done in February or March, 2005. Cross-pollination with English-Chinese translators hired to permit communication between lame duck Cobalt team and the Great Chinese Hope. A year of coding + testing takes us to around Summer, 2006 as the EARLIEST date for PalmLinux to be available. Assuming, of course, no showstopping bugs. Assuming the codemonkeys at the Great Chinese Hope actually know what they're doing. Assuming this doesn't turn into yet another MultiMail or anyday.com debacle. Assuming bitter Be engineers don't sabotage the whole project. Assuming the Linux kernel customizations aren't beyond PalmSource's abilities. Assuming all the components play nice together. Sounds like a LOT of assumptions. (Though to hear you and other PalmSource people talk in the past day, it's almost as if PalmLinux and its stunning new 3D GUI are ready to ship. Yesterday. So easy. In fact, at lunchtime I just coded PalmFreeBSD to use on my company's CLIES. Would you like me to send you a copy for Christmas?)

Get serious, DK. Who's going to be waiting for PalmSource when (if) PalmLinux finally shows up in 2006 or 2007???

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

As far as I can see it, that's a smart move.

No doubt PalmSource also feels the deal buys them the key to the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow: access to the Chinese market. PalmSource should first look into exactly how many American companies have been able to make money in China. And how many major American companies (like a little outfit known as Microsoft) have been sodomized over the years in China.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Well, foreign labor is cheap because the US dollar is still overvalued. Once it comes down, the problem will take care of itself.

Ridiculous. Greed Corp of America, Inc looks at employee, Bubba in Atlanta making $40,000/year + full health benefits + union contract Vs. Rajiv or Wai Ming that they could pay less than $4000/year. Who will they choose? Or how about their foreign factories that don't have to care about compliance with silly things like Health + Safety regulations or Environmental Regulations? Even if you could somehow devalue the American dollar by 50%, Third World and Communist country labor has an unfair advantage in this New World Order. The avalanche started with a snowball and the people sleeping blissfully in Who-Ville, USA at the bottom of the mountain don't know what's about to hit them.

>>>We need more protectionist legislature before it's too late.

The response to US import restrictions are foreign import restrictions. What do you think that's going to do to US jobs?

As if American companies don't operate with trade restrictions now. Do you think American companies are playing on a level field in China? Repatriated jobs would revitalize the domestic economy. Trade deficits need to be wiped out. Of course big business lobby groups will ensure this never happens.

>>>America will soon be at the mercy of countries like China and India, and by the time people realize this, it will be too late to do a damn thing about it.

There are 2 billion people in those nations alone, compared to, what, 330 million in the US. It think it's a good bet that China and India will be running the global economy in a few decades.

Not if America wakes up in time. There's no reason to hand over the keys to the US economy to the Third World. It's time for the USA to start looking after #1 (just like every other country already does).

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

They will choose the foreign worker, of course. And that's why Bubba's $40000/year salary can actually buy a house full of consumer products and a car. If Bubba could only buy products made by other Bubba's, then his $40000/year would be worth a fraction of what they are worth now.

As if American companies don't operate with trade restrictions now. Do you think American companies are playing on a level field in China?

There are no "level playing fields", but third world nations have far more cause to complain: the US and Europe are screwing them badly on agricultural subsidies and dumping. The current system is already rigged in favor of the US and Europe. If the US tries to make it even more one-sided, people are just going to jump ship.

Not if America wakes up in time. There's no reason to hand over the keys to the US economy to the Third World. It's time for the USA to start looking after #1 (just like every other country already does).

Europeans have largely overcome their selfish nationalistic impulses and manage to cooperate. But apparently the US wants to repeat the mistakes of early 20th century nationalism for itself.

In any case, it's not like the US has a choice in the matter: the keys to the US economy are already in foreign hands, just like the keys to any other economy. That's what a global economy means. If you think global competition makes the US poor, that's nothing compared to the drop in living standards that autarky would entail.

They will choose the foreign worker, of course. And that's why Bubba's $40000/year salary can actually buy a house full of consumer products and a car. If Bubba could only buy products made by other Bubba's, then his $40000/year would be worth a fraction of what they are worth now.

Nonsense. Americans can make products efficiently, if the desire is there. Or if businesses have some incentive to keep jobs/production local. Palm's switch to Chinese production + Indian technical support proves businesses don't care about quality - only profits - so that's why legislation is needed to "encourage" companies to keep jobs in the USA. Buying American will definitely mean either slightly lower profit margins or slightly higher prices, but would only minimally impact purchasing power. In any case, it is better for America for Bubba to have one USA-made DVD player than two China-made players. The goal should be to keep as many Americans as possible employed, paying taxes, purchasing and contributing to the economy.

>>>As if American companies don't operate with trade restrictions now. Do you think American companies are playing on a level field in China?

There are no "level playing fields", but third world nations have far more cause to complain: the US and Europe are screwing them badly on agricultural subsidies and dumping. The current system is already rigged in favor of the US and Europe. If the US tries to make it even more one-sided, people are just going to jump ship.

The Chinese playing field is not only tilted 90 degrees in favor of China but also littered with land mines. Only China knows where the mines are. The amount of IP theft occurring in the Far East is incredible. The Far East of today like the Wild West of yesteryear: anything goes. The USA needs to play hardball. Besides its reliance on foreign oil, the country can do quite OK in a more protectionist setting.

>>>Not if America wakes up in time. There's no reason to hand over the keys to the US economy to the Third World. It's time for the USA to start looking after #1 (just like every other country already does).

Europeans have largely overcome their selfish nationalistic impulses and manage to cooperate. But apparently the US wants to repeat the mistakes of early 20th century nationalism for itself.

In any case, it's not like the US has a choice in the matter: the keys to the US economy are already in foreign hands, just like the keys to any other economy. That's what a global economy means. If you think global competition makes the US poor, that's nothing compared to the drop in living standards that autarky would entail.

Please. The EU is a Titanic disaster just waiting to happen. USA needs to reassert its independence from foreign countries. The "Global Economy" benefits only big business and (to a much lesser degree) the Third World. Yes, it's probably too late to stop the sell-out of the American domestic manufacturing and IT industries, especially given the degree that shady foreign investment has penetrated the economy.

I suppose no one will notice until USA unemployment figures hit 15% and Time magazine and the rest of mainstream media start asking "Where have all the jobs gone?". At that point it will be too late. The dye is cast.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

some of your points go along quite well then u hit this...

"USA needs to reassert its independence from foreign countries. The "Global Economy" benefits only big business and (to a much lesser degree) the Third World"

which makes no sence... reasoning... If USA reasserts independence many countries like Japan, China, India the list is so long I wont go on... will pull out their investment in the US Dollor... and theres only one thing left after that....

go for it I dare Americans :)

(it might even work)

I think history proves it probably wont...
:D tea anyone... ooh hows the loop on that... (slap bang on topic)

That's exactly why Linux matters. Linux already runs on most of the HP/Compaq handhelds, on Sharp's line, on several Asian reference implementations (the kind that get imported and then shipped under some US label), several other handhelds, and lots of smartphones.

Porting Cobalt to those devices would probably have been a significant effort and a difficult sell for Palm. By putting Palm on Linux, those vendors can now offer Palm without any significant delays or engineering investments. The only thing PalmSource needs to do is negotiate well.

I don't want PalmOne and Palmsource to become the equivlent of E Machines in the Smartphone/PDA world and at the rate they are going that is exactly what will happen. Palmsource will be producing a cheap OS for millions in China and PalmOne will be telling us the the Treo 750 has everything we need when others are offering Wifi, Wimax, and other newer technologies.

I want PalmOne/Palmsource to invoate like they used to. I want them to be much more forward looking with the hardware side of their Technology.

I just don't buy the fact that Linux is going to change much as Linux is still behind Windows when it comes to device drivers.
An example would be Wimax. If this technology catches on, you'd want it in your PDA/Smartphone. Microsoft with strong ties to Intel will probably be the first to have the chip and device drivers in their Windows Mobile devices. One year later Palmsource and PalmOne will be waiting for someone in the OSS community to develop the drivers for them.

Palm used to take complex technology and make it simple, now they don't even take the technology in the first place.

How many linux apps don't run on top of stdio/X/Gnome/KDE? Or Mac OS apps which don't use Classic/Carbon/Cocoa (or stdio/X) ? Or even Windows apps (except games) which don't use MFC?

The bare-metal OS kernel is of interest mainly to driver developers and people doing massive system performance tuning. And there seems to be a lot of support for linux kernel driver development these days.

As for any porting difficulties, remember that the PalmOS Cobalt simulator *is* PalmOS (just compiled to x86 instead of ARM) running on top of a foreign kernel. They've been there and done that.

One viable way to make revolutionary changes in a platform (and the approach we took in Cobalt, which has quite a number of revolutionary changes in the basic architecture) is to build those new pieces separate from the existing architecture, and provide a way to emulate the old APIs on the new. This is the exact same approach Apple took with OSX.

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Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

charging for updates n fixes... and calling it a new OS

I'm swimming in the drool from Micro$oft and Gates. They would kill to have that name under their coat. PalmOne is an idiot company.

LONG LIVE THE PALM OS, WHATEVER FORM IT TAKES ON!

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If you feel like you're under control, you're just not going fast enough.

If Doomsday comes and the Palms blow up, HOPEFULLY my T3 will still be working and I will just start syncing with Outlook as prep for my jump to PPC. I'll gamble that I can find a used on on ebay to do the 'last sync' to get everything on Outlook easily if my T3 dies before I jump ship.

At the touch of a button, copy your Palm Desktop Address Book, Date Book, To Do List and Memo Pad or Contacts, Calendar, Tasks and Memos information into Microsoft Outlook Contacts, Calendar, Tasks and Notes.

PocketCopy is your quick and easy solution if you:

Are switching from a Palm OS to a Windows Mobile device and want to get your data onto your new handheld.
Want to start using Outlook to manage contact, calendar and other information.
No longer wish to use Palm Desktop Software but want access to your vital information via Outlook.
New in PocketCopy 2.0

Compatibility with Palm Desktop Software 4.1.2 and higher.

http://www.chapura.com/pocketcopy.php

I'm sticking with Palm Desktop for now - even though I used Outlook for corporate email. Desktop is simpler and cleaner and I like it better than Outlook for PIM. BUT it's nice to know that should DOOMSDAY come, there's a few ways to skin that cat - even if you have no working Palm device.

>Yes - this was something my second Palm (a IIIc) did very well >over four years ago!

...and I hear that someday the Tungsten line will carry a VIBRATING ALARM!!

...oh, had it and the expense must have killed it on the T5...I guess retro is better...

Do you even know what a kernel is? Seriously. You think PalmSource has been distracted "maintaining" their current kernel? The fact that PalmSource is teetering, about to fall off the edge of the cliff unfortunately has little to do with their suddenly all-important "kernel".

At this point, PalmLinux is little more than a smoke and mirrors trick being used to divert attention away from the fact that the emperor has no clothes. PalmOS 6 is D.O.A., licencees are fleeing the platform and the three year old PalmOS 5 is starting to smell more and more EOL each day. But the longer stock prices can be kept above penny stock levels, the better for people like David Nagel and the rest of the Apple Dumpling Gang. It's funny how people are already talking about PalmLinux as if it had gone gold a year ago and was available for the asking! PalmLinux is VAPORWARE, folks! Do people think all it's gonna take is for a couple of junior PalmSource code monkeys to mix in a little Linux kernel here, a little PACE there, a little Cobalt there and BADDA BOOM, BADDA BING! "PalmLinux now available before the end of December, 2004!"???

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6393

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6409

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7166

Instead of circling the wagons and concentrating its limited resources on optimizing PalmOS 6, PalmSource chose the "let's all split up + see if any of us makes it home alive" strategy. "Chief" Gates of the Redmond tribe is about to start leisurely picking off PalmSource Settlers one at a time, Halo-style.

Palm could not have been more helpful to Microsoft in giving away the market. All we need now is a couple of device recalls for quality control issues and maybe another lawsuit and Microsft wins by default. And not a single arrow fired...

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

There are two sources of information neither of us have. First, what the reception of PalmOS 6 with its native kernel was with hardware vendors. Second, how much effort it is to replace the PalmOS 6 kernel with Linux. I suspect the answers are (1) not good, and (2) not hard.

So, PalmSource is concentrating their limited resources where it really matters: the GUI, the applications, and the development tools, and that still seems like the right thing to do. Will it work this late in the game? We'll have to see.

Especially in this time of the forums being off line, it gives us something to read. Thanks for taking the trouble to put your thoughts on paper, and thanks to Ryan for publishing the opinions of an IT journo with many years in the industry. [which doesn't stop you from being wrong, Mike! :) ]

The thing about TVoR is that he does seem to have some basic knowledge of software development, and it's clear he knows people who were at Palm around the time of the Be acquisition and is aware of some of the things that happened during it.

However, at the same time, he also clearly knows little to nothing about the current situation at PalmSource or how Cobalt works and treats his guesses about these things as facts. He has a particular axe to grind about the Be acquisition, and is able to believe some quite contradictory things when it suits his needs.

As a result, he will go along saying things that are quite reasonable, lulling you into believing him, then hit one of his particular biases or delusions and suddenly veer off into a complete fantasy land with hardly a bump to warn you.

Some examples of his delusions are his insistance of PalmSource and palmOne being the same company, and that the engineers at Be only care about building "Perfect Code".

Here, for example, we have him posting something correct that shows he has some understanding of what a kernel is and what it really means to move PalmOS to Linux. Yet elsewhere he continues to claim its all the fault of Be engineers that Cobalt doesn't already use Linux when I have pointed out numerous times that it should be pretty clear this wasn't a decision made by the Be engineers given that Cobalt today doesn't use the BeOS kernel.

--
Dianne
PalmSource Application Frameworks Manager

Do you remember how the world reacted when Elvis debuted on TV?
Or how about a more modern example...

The simpsons, south park, oscar wilde

You're a smart guy, aren't they still well respected artists, even after causing so much controversy? It's just an opinion, always keep an open mind.

Palm Inc. was perceived as the inventor of the handheld; something to be very proud of. Consumers saw this and, by default, granted Palm Inc. instant credibility. When you bought a Palm Inc. device, you knew you were buying a strong product from a mainly all American company that had a team of experts that had full control over the Palm product. The hardware design, the manufacturing, the kernel development, the APIs, the marketing, the call center support, etc were all from mainly a single centralized and focused company who offered you the promise of "you buy our products, support our brand and our team and we will keep improving the handheld technology you love in a specialized, dedicated way. You need us, you know us, we need you and we are listening to you". This built the core of the Palm OS community and customer loyalty.

The split of Palm Inc. into PalmOne and PalmSource was a major error since it weakened the brand from a consumer's perspective. The advent of Palm OS Linux is weakening the brand from a developer's perspective. Palm Inc. is long gone and what we have instead is a mish mash of confusing outsourcing and licensing. Now, there are multiple companies involved (P1, PSource, Tapwave, Sony, etc) all habing their own interests and having to communicate among each other to wheel and deal. When something goes wrong or if there are conflicting interests, the consumer loses. That is why we now barely see any PalmOne flash OS updates, that is why we see more manufacturing quality control problems, OS licensing sales problems, marketing problems, leadership/management problems, etc. Consumers and developers see these problems and they don't like it.

And now comes along Palm OS Linux to save the day. Some argue: "... We had other Kernels before. So what's the beef people?". The problem is that you are reminding people you have no intention of ever going back to the focused 1 stop shop kind of company that Palm Inc. once was. In fact, going the open source route further cheapens the Palm brand and is perceived as being yet another attempt to do things on the cheap. Others will argue: "... MacOS is a layer on top of an NX OS!". My answer is that Mac OS is still less than 5% of the market. I want Palm OS to be more than 5% of the handheld market.

Some more people will argue: "... Microsoft doesn't make devices, so why are they any better?". My answer is, ironically, that is Microsoft's only weakness. The desktop market and the handheld market are different. The "we make the OS and you make the hardware" business model works well with the desktop industry because you can install any Windows XP update on any PC. You can't just slap any PalmSource upgrade on any handheld hardware; it has to be adapted and tailored by the hardware maker.

Palm Inc. should of kept their edge by remaining a 1 stop shop company. They wanted to be like Microsoft by allowing PalmSource to license the Palm OS and get others to make the hardware. What Palm Inc. did not realize is that Microsoft's branding is much stronger and you do not want to compete against them on an identical marketing battle field. Microsoft also has more hardware corporate sales channels with HP, Dell, etc. Palm Inc. should have remained focused on the home consumers.

The move to Palm OS Linux will indeed contribute to pushing developers to the safer more focused Windows Mobile OS environment. This will result in less new Palm OS programs and less updates, which will in turn result in less device sales.

The solution for me is clear

- Rejoin PalmSource/PalmOne, rebrand products as "Palm".
- Get back to work on OS 6.
- Focus on the home user market.
- Focus on only 3 products, the Treo, a high end multimedia Tungsten and a 1 very inexpensive Zire. The Tungsten needs to have things like Wifi, OLED, fullscreen DivX 30fps video and be shaped like the HP 4150.
- Open a true english speaking support call center in the US or Canada.
- Increase your quality control and practice the doctrine of "no PDA will leave the plant until its hardware is flawless - we will not be rushed".
- Give your customers support with flash upgrades (you can charge for it, we will understand!). Give them reasons to be loyal, to trust, to buy.

If PalmOne or PalmSource think that cheap smartphones, Linux and the Chinese are going to make them prosper, they better think again.

It is likely too late to make any recovery plan, but nonetheless the leadership at Palm-whatever should at least try. There are still 10 million users, a good number of developers and many retail sales channels still open. But the changes will have to come fast, very fast. Anyways, the chances of a 180 degree turnabout on the Linux migration decision are close to nil, so don't hold your breath.

I think Bill Gates once said something about by the time you realize your mistake in the computer industry, it is often too late to make changes to be able to pull back from the brink. Once the blackhole spiral grabs you, there is no escape. I invite Palm-whatever to open talks right away and bring back Palm Inc so as to set all thrusters to maximum to pull away from the blackhole's gravity...

Proprietary is in the eye of the beholder. I've been working with Operating Systems since the early 70s and have been hearing this thrown around almost as long. *Every* OS is "proprietary". Every time an OS (be it IBM's MVS on the mainframe, or Msoft's Windows) becomes the 800 pound gorilla in its space, the competition screams PROPRIETARY!

Every platform has its own set of exposed application development APIs and coding rules that need to be followed. If this wasn't the case, there would be chaos. There is nothing inherently "open" in Open Systems either. Whether you are developing for Linux, AIX, Solaris, etc there are platform specific rules which need to be followed. I seriously doubt that PalmSource is going to expose the "Pinux" Kernel to the open community through anything other then a (hopefully) well documented API set. This is nothing different then any other OS.

As I wrote...it's like Janet Jackson publically exposing her breasts in hopes of boosting her dead music career. It didn't work for her and I doubt it's going to put PalmOS back on top.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Really? I've been hearing a lot feedback like this. I just switched to Cingular last week and had the opportunity to buy a Treo 600 at a low carrier subsidized price, but opted instead for Sony-Ericsson T637 because of all the poor quality reports I've heard from Treo 600 users. Brian Cooley from C|NET says he has shuffled through several units to due problems.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

I feel your pain. I returned my Treo 600 last January. It had the shoddiest construction quality of any piece of consumer electronics I've ever purchased. Fantastic design. Brilliant OS execution. Horrible construction, cheap parts selection and non-existent quality control. If only Sony Ericsson could be contracted to build these phones. I refused to play that game and voted with my wallet. I also won't be paying for the "privilege" of becoming a beta tester with the Treo 650, either.

A smartphone needs to "just work". The Treo lineup never has "just worked" and at this rate probably never will be reliable. Thanks, Palm.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

>> "It is all about branding and perception."<<

>> "Palm Inc. was perceived as the inventor of the handheld; something to be very proud of. Consumers saw this and, by default, granted Palm Inc. instant credibility. When you bought a Palm Inc. device, you knew you were buying a strong product from a mainly all American company that had a team of experts that had full control over the Palm product. ... <<

>> "... focused company who offered you the promise of "you buy our products, support our brand and our team and we will keep improving the handheld technology you love in a specialized, dedicated way. You need us, you know us, we need you and we are listening to you". This built the core of the Palm OS community and customer loyalty." ... <<

But I go one step further: While you will carry them as actual *computers*, the thing that was once called a PDA will be your *phone* and *it* will do all of the PIM functions of a PDA -- and hardly anything more (that is, it won't try to be the computer it obviously cannot and never could be).

So, ardiri has not been hanging out around here lately. I've been saying the same bloody thing! I've cited both the Sony U and the OQO!

talking about it?

pfft. i *purchased* one, with a BT compact flash card and hook it up to a stowaway keyboard (to type) and bluetooth headset (for skype). with built in 802.11b, its a perfect mobile companion.

when i dont need to do functions like that, the touch screen works well and i can play all the divx/xvid video files back at my leisure.. no compatibility options, 800x600 is perfect for tv shows.

maybe i should write a review exclusively for palm infocenter :) come to think of it, it might be nice to actually start comparing the devices out there - not everyone is suited for palm, it all depends what you want to do with the device.

But I go one step further: While you will carry them as actual *computers*, the thing that was once called a PDA will be your *phone* and *it* will do all of the PIM functions of a PDA -- and hardly anything more (that is, it won't try to be the computer it obviously cannot and never could be).

i carry my u70 as a "handheld". because, its small. now, i'm on my way to australia, with a targus travel charger, i'll have wifi access while in my car - without having to hunk around a huge laptop (i have that with me too, for doing real work). while these devices are expensive; they are the next generation.

the only bitch i would have is the 800x600 resolution; but, when you are mobile - do you need more? just hook it up to a 1600x1200 LCD monitor when at home/in the office (which, is what i do). problem solved.

on that note - the only true pda i have ever used is the treo 600 and treo 650 - mainly for the phone and internet access to get simple information from the web.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

I think ultimately Windows DOES win, though. The UI issues are already being addressed and micro Windows laptops are starting to get the form factor right. Microsoft will be able to leverage MS Office to blow away it's competition: why would anyone in their right mind run a Word-compatible app on a PDA when they can just run REAL MS Word instead? For ultimate portability, smartphones with screens almost the size of today's PDAs will take over the niche currently occupied by PDAs.

Palm had many golden opportunies to capitalize on its OS and failed: [1] They failed to produce a micro laptop for businesses. [2] They failed to produce (or more correctly, MARKET) an MP3 player/video player. [3] They failed to adequately entrench their smartphone OS with business customers. Sony's UX50 and VZ90 pushed the PalmOS 5 envelope and started to address [1] and [2]. But now, PalmOS' window of opportunity is closing. I find it difficult to believe that Microsoft will give Palm another chance to come back.

Think about it: besides the Treo 600/650, pa1mOne has nothing going for it. And besides the rickety, three year old PalmOS 5, PalmSource has nothing going for it. Great way to start 2005.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Look into the memory resident footprint required to operate MS Word, and the power requirements to refresh that much memory, or stream it into cache. Now how much does the battery have to weigh to support that for several hours?

Thank you Mike.

Wait a minute there. Don't give us this "March" business.

Hey, Gekko! You've the money guy around here. Tell us what the outcome would have been since the initial *Palm Inc* IPO!

At the end of the day, EARNINGS are what matters. Judge the management of a company by the REVENUES AND PROFITS/EARNINGS GROWTH THAT THEY DELIVER - because that is what ultimately drives long term shareholder wealth.

And look at Nagel's stock ownership/selling relative to this tiny market cap:

http://biz.yahoo.com/t/46/3395.html

Thanks for taking the time, Gekko. That does explain a lot. Maybe the dive in PalmSource does mean they have to roll the dice and try something radical like POS on a Linux kernel?

Sad fact is, some people have done well out of it. Even sadder is that you don't need to be clever to make lots of money; just be a good talker/self-promoter and an arsehole.

Ryan, I've got to agree with Strider on this one. This same kind of thinking could be applied to tabloid news. It may be complete nonsense, but since it has readers, who cares about the content. It give people something to talk about. Minimally I think you should call this what it is: pure speculation based on faulty understanding, not an "editorial." Parts of it may prove to be accurate, but likely only because if you spew enough verbage, the "law of big numbers" says you'll get it right some of the time.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Dear PalmSource,

Oh really? When you changed kernels before, you had your programmers work on it from the ground up. When you built OS 6, you told us you built it the ground up and included BeOS technology. Point is YOU were the designers, YOU were involved at every level. With mLinux, you are no longer the designers. You even say in your open letter that you want to free up your engineer/programmer resources to focus on other things. The core, the kernel, has a major impact on problems for both yourself and Palm OS software developers at higher levels of programming. Who will we turn to for support when a kernel related problem occurs? You won't be there since you already said you would allocate your resources elsewhere.

Essentially, you are abandoning your OS, your product, your involvement at the kernel development level and your "raison d'être" (french for "reason to exist").

But what is your point? Supposedly this was going to clear something up for me about your "editorial." I don't see the correlation between what Larry wrote and what you did. Is it because he referred to the kernel as the "base OS," so now you can refer to the Palm as a "skin for Linux" and claim that "the operating system no longer matters to them?" What Larry wrote somehow means that "PalmOS vs. PPC [issue] is now dead in the water, totally obsolete, and just so beyond the point"?

"... read the entire piece (it actuially *is* an Editorial; mine was suppose to be called "Opinion") OK, *now* do more of you understand?"

Here is what I now understand: your "editorial" was supposed to just be "opinion." Supposedly this must mean that you don't have to have any basis in reality for that which you opine.

This raises an interesting question. Would the Treo running on Windows Mobile have the palm apps, or just use the pocketpc apps. Could Cane be right!

But surely not, else it would still have all the same problems ie. not being outlook compliant.

Surur

Riddle me this: What if Microsoft offered pa1mOne money to do a Windows Treo 700? Or what if Sprint's many corporate clients DEMANDED a Windows variant, as their IT departments prefer an all Windows, all the time solution? Still think pa1mOne is crazy for looking at other options?

And what if pa1mOne's current OS supplier, PalmSource started looking like it would be unable to offer the kind of next-generation OS pa1mOne will need to stay competitive? Still think pa1mOne is crazy for looking at other options?

PalmSource has just taken a series of vicious blows to the head. I think this fight is going to be stopped pretty soon.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104348/

Can't believe someone would post that in 2004.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Surur

Why would Microsoft shut down PPC just as its competition (PalmOS) appears to be in the final stages of self destruction? As of late 2004, PPC is supposedly gaining marketshare and has had probably between 5 - 10 times the number of new devices announced recently compared to PalmOS. PalmOS, on the other hand, has had massive financial losses in 2004, is losing licencees, has ZERO devices shipping with its new OS one full year after its release, and has been forced to try to rewrite its OS from the bottom up. Indeed.

PalmOS: "The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades..."

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

But really, how many more people with some actual knowledge and experience have to point out the flaws in your "editorial" before you accept that maybe there is a thing or two you didn't get right?

It's kind of like someone showing up in the middle of a full blown water balloon fight wearing a tuxedo and trying to get everyone's attention to make an announcement that he wants to stay dry. Dude, your gonna get soaked!

You jumped right onto the biggest bomb shell PalmSource has dropped in a while. We were already in full swing and yours was the next "forum" for us to continue to unload. And I should thank you, 'cause I'm having fun.

Your editorial "was a good diversion and ... emblematic of all the ... posts" it generated.

As it was you acted like a crank and were written off as such.

Never to late to start again tho. Usernames change easily enough.

Some more than others.

Maybe Palmsource/Palmone is planning to go out with a bang by delivering the slowly reducing palm population in one go, instead of by slow attrition, and to do this by offering the Palm experience (Apps and Launchers etc) on Pocketpc. They may not care AT ALL for 3rd party apps, saying most people dont install 3rd party apps in any case.

A big bang and a nice conspiracy theory, aint it :)

Surur

"Based on his conversation with the company's chief executive, Dave Nagel, last night, Friedman wrote "there was nothing 'special' to motivate this resignation."

However, he added, "At this stage in its life cycle, PSRC requires management with telecom-specific relationships and business development skills that Wood was unable to provide," for which reason he thinks the company is targeting a new CFO with a telecom pedigree.

He also suggested that Wood's departure might have arisen from contentions related to unsuccessful licensee negotiations.

"We believe that one of PSRC's major licensees known to have exited the market was not bound by a top-up obligation, which we had been led to believe by the prior management," Friedman wrote in a research note Friday."

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7359

Oh great...so the "Street" was walking around thinking PalmOne had a long term lock on Sony, and then Sony says see-ya, I'm out of here. Time to add Nagel to my list of candidates for The Apprentice in another post. Say what you want about Msoft (or Steve Jobs for that matter), but at least those companies aren't being run by unsupervised children.

You are quoting what someone thinks the change in CFO means.

In other words, you proved my point.

Honestly, I could see palmOne doing WinMobile, just not as another entry into the market. The rumor of them doing a Treo-like device for Dell seems to me more like what they would do. Also, I think palmOne has been extremly patient with PalmSource. It seems to me that they may have wanted the T5 to be their first low end Cobalt device. But seeing how hardware plans can finish before software ones, that cannot always happen.

Also, PalmSource is playing the role of getting a plan B. If it happens that Cobalt fails, then they will have this to fall sideways on. I do think that in the short term, PS will be operating under some really hard issues trying to float one OS style over another's and then also support Garnet and Cobalt. Stretching a bit thin perhaps.

antoinerjwright.com

A paper based organizer can't handle what I'm doing with my Palm.

And the sorry fact is that, right now, there are Palm and PPC. I wish it weren't so, but that's the way it is. If Palm goes out of business, one of two things may happen. Either we get something much better than Palm and PPC has serious competition. Or, we are left with only PPC and its all-encompassing Windows tie-ins. And that does matter, to users and developers alike.

check out the song on itunes sometime

I'll be back to reply when I have the time.

In the meantime, please feel free to gnaw on each others flesh as you debate flip covers.

http://www.doublemirrors.com/nyc/homeless.jpg

<<< Clueless Cane™, you'd better start heading for Mexico NOW. If Mistress Hackborn ever finds her lapdoggie (you), she's gonna open a can of whoop ass on you! Say "Adios" to your cojones, Amigo. She'll be serving them up in the PalmSource cafeteria, Hannibal Lecter-style!

I hope you spent the weekend in the library reading about kernels, system architectures and basic PalmOS coding principles. Right now you have ZERO credibility on PIC, Clueless Cane™ - everyone can see you're just a loudmouthed, ignorant boor. I know I shouldn't kick you when you're down, but it's just too much fun. I can't wait to see Ska come back to take a few shots at your battered carcass!

It will be hilarious to see whether or not you just S T F U and disappear for good or if you actually come back and try to defend your mindless drivel here. Your recent silence has been deafening.

Dumba$$. >>>

The administrator of PIC, Ryan, replies like this:

<<< RE: Mike Cane: Don't show your face around here again.
Admin @ 12/13/2004 2:00:13 PM

The world is full of crashing bores - Morrissey

check out the song on itunes sometime. >>>

So Ryan, look at what he said about Mike. LOOK AT HOW YOU RESPOND, so nice and friendly, like nothing happened. Why didn't you censor his article as you did mine? You obviously have double standards, and as a webmaster, you are losing credibility, especially when you DELETE my post critizing Mike Cane, and put me down about it.

You're all nothing but a bunch of manic street preachers anyway

Positive things happening there!
The new Podcast thing seems to be popular.

I just wont tolerate any form of racism. We are ALL dweebs here.

btw - Ed did not run away, he had a choice and we were both pleased at how it turned out. I am good friends with him and Steve at BH.

Luddites be damned!

>> "There is no need to consider WinMobile, unless your hardware or sotware needs could be better met by that platform."

>> "Remain confident in the PalmOS, just because there is news, doesnt mean its bad news."

My software needs are almost fully met with Palm OS. I really wish palmOne would hurry up and come out with a device that supports both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. A newer version of the Tungsten C with Bluetooth added and a backlit keyboard would be nice. So would a T5 with Wi-Fi built in.

You poor pathetic stalker. You just can't stand it, can you? Even behind a fake name, you have no balls. You ****.