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Comments on: Jeff Hawkins Forecasts Future Brainstorms

The Electrical Engineering Times has published an extensive interview with Jeff Hawkins, Palm Computing founder and current CTO of palmOne. The interview talks about the latest breakthroughs he is working on. He also speaks on upcoming for palmOne work and a huge new way to think about intelligent computing.
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Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck

Gekko @ 1/13/2005 10:28:55 PM # Q

This prick hasn't done a lick of real work at P1 in many years. He's too busy with his hobbies. I bet the prick rarely even shows up at the office. He's sucked enough money out of the company. Sharholders and Customers say - Do some real work or get the f**k off the payroll. Granted, he was the pioneer - but what have you done for me lately? Hawkins fiddles while Palm burns.



RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
hkklife @ 1/13/2005 10:39:44 PM # Q
The ship is going down around him and yet Hawkins continues to talk about the "next big thing" and peddle his book. Dean Kamien he is not. Get back into the lab or keep the beancounters at bay so that '05 isn't PalmXXXX's swansong.

P.S. He wants computers to think like they have brains in 25 years? Well, he's been plugging away with the Palm OS for almost half that time and we have very little progress to show for it. How can he preach that he is a visionary one moment, then call himself a "product guy" the next all the while standing around idly while his once-proud hardware company continues to churn out one rubbish retread after another?

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Gekko @ 1/13/2005 10:51:31 PM # Q
RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
hkklife @ 1/13/2005 11:20:59 PM # Q
Wow. Verrry telling numbers indeed! Nice find, Gekko.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
svrontis @ 1/14/2005 12:30:47 AM # Q
That's funny. I've heard the same complaints about Mr Gates and Mr Jobs too.

Anyway, these sort of complaints just prove my general theory - those who can DO; those who can't WHINE.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
ReneeRoberts @ 1/14/2005 12:50:38 AM # Q
I agree about the whiner comment wholeheartedly. Jeff Hawkins is an extremely thoughtful person. This is someone who has no hesitation to sit down next to a stranger and help them with a problem. He very strongly believes in computational neuroscience research. It has been a passion of his since before Palm. So, all you whiners out there... if you own a PalmOS handheld, thank the man for crying out loud. Without him, you wouldn't have your toy. And for those who don't, realize that an entire industry is now based on his vision.

Just because he is a good businessman and money manager is no reason to be rude to him.

And for God-sake, stop the whining! Grow up!

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
tfftruoa @ 1/14/2005 12:54:49 AM # Q
Every week he is selling 7,692 shars of palmone stock. He started out with 3,200,000 odd shares. That works out to 400ish weeks until he is fully divested of his stake in palmone. Considering all these transactions are automatic (probbaly schedualed by time rather than selling price) it looks like he's just using his shares as a source of additional personal income. Perfectly reasonable considering he has over 8 years until he runs out of shares. Hell, if I could get $300,000 a week for over 8 years, I would grab that up in a heartbeat.

Sharp Wizard-->Handspring Visor "Deluxe"-->Sony Clie SJ30-->Palm Tungsten T3 w/ SE T68i
RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
svrontis @ 1/14/2005 4:22:54 AM # Q
> How can he preach that he is a visionary one moment, then call himself a "product guy" the next all the while standing around idly while his once-proud hardware company continues to churn out one rubbish retread after another?

hklife, you have made a good point. But remember this - those 'rubbish retreads' are MAKING MONEY. This is because p1 are producing units which customers are happy to take in exchange for their hard-earned shekels.

Contrast this with the performance of others. Sony, for instance, were able to produce lots of new models with clever gimmicks. Geeks like us called this: innovation. So what? Sony are history, because they always lost money. They lost money, because people didn't want to buy such 'innovation'. What's the point of innovation which people don't want? Isn't such innovation just a 'solution without a problem'?

Look at it this way - p1 has achieved innovation of a kind which the likes of Sony could only dream about - p1 have discovered a way to make palmpilots for a PROFIT. What a radical idea!

Ergo, p1 is innovative enough where it counts - in the local computer store and on the bottom line.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
PilotMad @ 1/14/2005 7:03:25 AM # Q
I for one am glad he is still involved with his visions. Along with Bill Gates and others a true company needs it's thinkers. While i believe the company has some issues to sort out, quality, innovation and listening to its customers. One would assume there is a good team behind him to handle such details.

He has built an industry around some of his visions. A company needs charismatic leaders and pioneers.

Its true the company may currently have problems and may fall by the way to peer competition. That would be sad. But it is a reality of the industry. The concept/product hopefully will be carried on by some other company.

Apple is for example of a company steadily on the rise again.

Just my thoughts.



PM.
----------------------
Palm Nirvana or bust!

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
LiveFaith @ 1/14/2005 10:45:42 AM # Q
those who can DO; those who can't WHINE.

Whew. That says it all!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Rome @ 1/14/2005 11:08:19 AM # Q
Gekko,

I hope your comments were meant to be funny in a sarcastic way, because I really don't think that you are that ignorant. Jeff can probably make a lot more money if he ever decides to leave P1 and work elsewhere, even on a part-time basis. Treo 600 single-handedly made Palm cool again, and his contribution on the brain research front is simply invaluable.

He is not just concerned with making money these days, but he is also trying to make a difference in our life with his brain research. For that, I salute him.

Hawkins is EARNING his P1 Paycheck
RhinoSteve @ 1/14/2005 1:12:54 PM # Q
Gekko, let me guess. You think the Socialist Police should also grab all of his assets and return it to the workers as some Stalinist-middle man pockets "service fees" like a lot of charities do right now in the name of "social justice." That was tried for seventy years with one third of the world and it failed miserably. China is not really socialist anymore. It is more of a facist, one party state with private enterprises that support the party a la Nazi Germany. But I digress ...

Ten years ago, Jeff was doing ok and living in a modest home with small children after his first independantly developed PDA, the Zoomer, crashed and burned. Before that, he left a good paying job at GRiD (yes, I still know how to spell that company right!) when Tandy didn't want to market any more tablet computers.

He has just a million dollars left in capital (and that is not much when you have two dozen salaries to meet), all the big company interest was gone and you had one more shot before you start to look for another job. He came up with the Pilot PDA that was made of the cheapest injection mold design he could get and a very inexpensive, almost obsolete, CPU that runs off a pair of AAA batteries.

Low and behold, the recipe was right and the product took off when all the fat cooks were gone!

Here we are ten years later, he is at the top of the game in Silicon Valley and up there with the ranks of Jobs and Grove. While I do not agree with all of his theories in "On Intelligence" at all, he deserves ever cent he makes.

Remember -- Fortune favors the brave!

Gekko, how about you getting away from these newsgroups, get to work on an idea, make a product, market it and see if you have manakas to make it. I bet good money, ten years from now you will be in the same winey and bitter position you are now bitching about someone else making it big.

QED

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Gekko @ 1/14/2005 2:38:03 PM # Q

RhinoNerd - I've already made it big. I don't begrudge Hawkins for cashing out stock from the company he helped build. What I DO begrudge is the fact that that company is putting out poor quality, non-innovative products while the "Chief Technology Officer" is spending 99% of his time on hobbies and AWAY from the job that he collects a PAYCHECK for and shareholders and customers get screwed. Shareholders especially want a CTO that is ENGAGED and is 100% FOCUSED on COMPANY PRODUCTS. Look at the T5 and the T650 - They're GARBAGE. HAWKINS OWES SHAREHOLDERS A FULL DAYS WORK FOR A FULL DAYS PAY. PERIOD.

RE: Hawkins is EARNING his P1 Paycheck
RhinoSteve @ 1/14/2005 3:24:12 PM # Q
I don't agree with you at all. PalmOne is a consumer electronics company, not a technology company. The T5 is selling well to those that matter and not techno-nerds like you.

As far as if you "made it", I dare you to post your portfolio on line.
RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Take1 @ 1/14/2005 4:14:27 PM # Q
I agree with Gekko on this one. I wouldn't have said it as bluntly as he's done, but the sentiment is there.


RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Gekko @ 1/14/2005 4:16:41 PM # Q

1. You may be a "Techno-Nerd" but I'm not.
2. $1M+.



RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
RhinoSteve @ 1/14/2005 4:43:40 PM # Q
Ok, I guess this is going to be a appendage whipping talk now.

That is not a portfolio, that is a claim. I want to see the URL listing your assets. Hey, I can make a claim to be worth over one million too. So can anyone else on this. Seems you are the one that needs to provesomething here.

FYI, unvested stock options or vested stock options that are untradeable don't count.

Also, I guess you don't know who I am or you wouldn't be acting like such a winer.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Rome @ 1/14/2005 4:55:05 PM # Q
Not into comparing finance porfolios, because a person's true worth is not measured by his/her financial status.

My wife and I both own and use the Treo 650, and I must say that we both love our Treos. Gekko, you are entitled to your opinions, but Palmone has two very happy customers here.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
mikecane @ 1/14/2005 4:59:34 PM # Q
Gekko is dreaming. If I had $1M+ in *wealth*, I wouldn't be spending time posting here.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Gekko @ 1/14/2005 5:33:39 PM # Q

Believe what you want to believe. I made my points. Good night.



RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
mikecane @ 1/14/2005 5:52:54 PM # Q
Oooh, feeling insulted are ya? People with thin skins aren't usually rich. Unless they won a lottery. So, which six numbers got you yours?

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Admin @ 1/14/2005 6:29:54 PM # Q
this thread is golden :P
RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
SeldomVisitor @ 1/14/2005 8:06:42 PM # Q
I did a very brief search and found no compensation words for Hawkins though he theoretically is an executive officer - I believe such a disclosure has to be somewhere public.

With respect to net worht of a million bucks, though, you're kidding, right?

Over here on the East coast it has been trivially easy to become a paper millionaire - e.g., my house is worth three times what I bought it for about 10 years ago - poof! Instant almost-millionaire form that alone.

A million bucks is not interesting anymore...sigh.

(of course, a million bucks every three weeks ala Hawkins stock sales - now THAT'S interesting!)

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Strider_mt2k @ 1/14/2005 11:24:43 PM # Q
If I had all that dough, I'd still be posting here but on a really really nice machine. -But that's me.



RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
T. @ 1/15/2005 12:30:48 AM # Q
There are several truths I have learned in life:

1) If it ain't a Harley it ain't worth riding.
2) Most people who feel they they need to tell you they have a million dollars.....either don't or got it from their dad.
3) People who drive a Lexus (or say they do) .......who cares, it's a Toyota.
4) A 1/4 of a billion dollar payroll doesn't win you the world series (or even the ALCS for that matter).


RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
pmjoe @ 1/15/2005 9:20:43 AM # Q
> I for one am glad he is still involved with his visions. Along with Bill Gates and
> others a true company needs it's thinkers. [...] He has built an industry around
> some of his visions. A company needs charismatic leaders and pioneers.

Always annoys me when people give credit where credit isn't due. Bill Gates was never a pioneer in the computer/technology industry. Any "visions" he has had are refitted/rebadged/resold products from other pioneers/visionaries. Bill Gates is a brilliant, shrewd, etc. businessman in the tech industry (like Michael Dell and others), but please don't equate that to vision and innovation.


RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
PilotMad @ 1/16/2005 11:50:18 AM # Q
Everything's relative. I didn't necessarily equate Bill gates with innovation in the traditional sense of near revolutionary product leaps. He is brilliant, and a genius (or extremely lucky) in terms of business strategy, history will tell.But I do not doubt for one moment that Microsoft would not be able to satisfy that innovation criteria with ease. They have both the financial muscle and the necessary influence. Their innovation is more subtle but has been growing steadily. I believe in the development tools area and growing database arena (where i work, Oracle,DB2) they are slowly becoming impressive.

Gate's company took steps in embracing certain key technology directions at various points (e.g. internet)and standardised it by virtue of a monopoly. There is much of their software which although i take for granted, is simply superior. I have the knowledge that it will mostly work with almost all of the other software i have. Not always technically briliant or cutting edge brilliant, but at least not 'bleeding edge'.

No one should deny that Microsoft has taken some technologies forward or pushed other companies to do so (e.g. Open Standards)in their desperation to compete. A considerable amount of Microsoft's budget as with IBM, Sun and Oracle is spent on research.

Gate's vision of 'Windows Everywhere' is for the moment the one that many of us are following, voluntarily or involuntarily. How many microsoft products do you own?

Ultimately though, true research and innovation is done through universities, governments (esp. through the military), specialist companies, sometimes years/decades before anyone really knows how to exploit it or what to do with it.

This is a long piece but there are many ways to look at innovators and visionaries. It's usually done through contribution, history and hindsight. Bill gates has already put his mark down in the history of computing.

One day i will probably swap over to a Pocket PC, if palmOne/PalmSource loses their way. I did indeed own a HP Jornada Windows CE machine at one time which i loved.

I am now about to purchase my very first Mac which i have always admired but considered too expensive. The new cheaper Mac Mini. Not just because of the seemingly superior graphics interface, but mainly because it's a unix box which i have used at work daily for years with Oracle. I will probably retire my very old 586 Linux box.

I do not forsee dumping Microsoft or Palm. They will all co-habit happily in my computer graveyard which i call my home.

Again, just my thoughts.


PM.
----------------------
Palm Nirvana or bust!

Microsoft Vs. The World. And the winner is...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/16/2005 4:18:52 PM # Q
"Wild" Bill Gates is both brilliant and an incredible businessman, but the monopolies he's achieving are staggering. We really need to do whatever we can to support competing technologies/companies before we wake up one day and find Windows Everywhere. Wait a minute... too late.

Linux, CrApple's Mac, other Unix flavors, PalmOS, Firefox, Opera, Quicken... the list of software that can legitimately compete with Microsoft is getting smaller every year. Where are Netscape, WordPerfect, OS/2 and the hundreds of other competitors Microsoft used to have? All dead. Or bought out (Like they did with Visio and tried to do with Quicken). Even Java has been targeted by Microsoft (thank God!). While I generally don't believe in governments controlling the free market, Microsoft is on a rampage and this can't be good in the long run. Looks like the DOJ blew it.

Five years from now every computer product you own may be running a Microsoft OS + Microsoft software, with the hardware made in China and technical non-support handled in India (or an even poorer country once workers there start asking for more than $2/hour pay). Don't like it? Tough.




******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Calroth @ 1/16/2005 5:50:57 PM # Q
I have one thing to say.

I don't care whether Hawkins is stealing his PalmOne paycheck or not. If he can get away with it, good for him, let him do so. The fact is that you can do nothing about it, apart from whine on Internet messageboards. If you really cared about the issue, you'd invest in PalmOne stock and have a say about how the company is run. Or anything else that MATTERS.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
PilotMad @ 1/16/2005 5:56:17 PM # Q
Going back off-topic to Microsoft for the moment.

I dont think even Microsoft believes it could have anything like a total monopoly. From a company perspective it would be very hard to avoid a break up (Standard Oil did not escape) or harsh penalties from either ther DOJ or the European Commission. Or maybe even backlash from its customers with a perceived anti-sentiment towards it. IT and technology has a way of policing itself. For companies you're only as good as your last product(s) which has an all too limited shelf life. A sea of change can leave you behind. We all know the IBM/Microsoft story. IBM thought hardware and Microsoft thought software...

There is now an accepted fundamental requirement for open standards which is a double-edged sword to all companies. Add to that the dissemination/freedom of open source/standards via the internet and hostile user communities (who are customers). These are issues that can seriously cripple any company who gets sentiment wrong or fails to get the balance right between open and proprietary code/products.(Sony pleas take note...)

I believe Microsoft came to an arrangement/collaboration with Apple about the one of the Apple's issues and pumped quite a large sum of money into the company. Also i believe there was another collaboration recently with Sun about which involved another injection of money.

The key thing here is learning to coexist with open standards promoting/supporting it while at the same time ensuring your software if not the best available, is the cheapest and most readily available with the least problems.

For example if you can run Linux or any easily under Windows VM software (e.g. Services For Unix and the like). Then you may still be inclined to stay with Microsoft for all your other needs.

Discussion is healthy. Even 'whining' sometimes. There are often little things of merit from even extreme views which might spark something in one person or succession of people to something revolutionary. At the very least one can always 'switch off' and read something else.

I am very interested in PalmSource and their moves towards Linux. After all Steve Jobs and Apple did essentially the same with the BSD flavor of unix (I believe). It was a start. Now look at them.

GO APPLE!!!

In one of my other posts, i should have said that many of Microsoft's innovations, improvements, revolutions would not necessarily be immediately visible to most people who would look look at end products. They are after all a company who principle work involves software technology that works behind the scenes e.g. Operating systems and the like.



PM.
----------------------
Palm Nirvana or bust!

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
SeldomVisitor @ 1/16/2005 6:02:24 PM # Q
Actually, if one believes that whatever Hawkins is or isn't doing is not cost-effective (I've seen no recent evidence that Hawkins is paid anything worth noticing, BTW) then SHORTING PLMO would probably be the way to go.

Since PLMO is uber-volatile that doesn't seem like a prudent investment to me (yes, a short CAN be an investment!). Of course, IMHO neither is a long...

Voice of Idiocy
mikecane @ 1/16/2005 9:02:05 PM # Q
Enjoy your new StinkPad, pal. Enjoy your upcoming RSI. That keyboard is made to induce RSI.

The Mac Mini is going to start biting billg in his a**. Just think of all those lost Mac Word sales -- because who wants that C-RAP when you can use Apple's Pages?

I have to move from Win98SE to something better. Do I really want XP after all the firsthand woes I've experienced from 98? Hell no. I'm sick of running Ad-Aware and Spybot after every net session.

And, gee, look at those iPod sales. After HOW many MP3 players have been thrown against the wall, only the iPod has stuck.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
twrock @ 1/16/2005 11:26:23 PM # Q
Yes, is not that Mac Mini one of the most tempting computers to come down the pipe lately?

I love how everyone is comparing it to the "equivalent Windows PC" and saying it costs $100 more. There is no "equivalent Windows PC" because this thing runs Mac software. That IS the point. I think this is a very smart move by Apple.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
AdamaDBrown @ 1/16/2005 11:31:50 PM # Q
Mike, take it from somebody who held on to Win98 for an eternity--XP is lightyears better. No crashes. No hassles. Use a good browser like Opera or Firefox and you won't even have to worry about spyware. Get a Mac if you like, but I'm just saying.

Is Microsoft getting screwed? Apparently.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/17/2005 2:01:59 AM # Q
I believe Microsoft came to an arrangement/collaboration with Apple about the one of the Apple's issues and pumped quite a large sum of money into the company. Also i believe there was another collaboration recently with Sun about which involved another injection of money.

Collaboration? Arrangement? Get serious.

First of all, the $150 million Gates gave Apple was in an effort to keep Apple alive in order to minimize Microsoft's future risk in (inevitable) antitrust suits. Microsoft NEEDS the presence of another (feeble) OS so they can avoid being a true monopoly. Plus Gates knew he'd get a lot of the money back anyway.

The multibillion dollar lawsuit brought against Microsoft by the DOJ and the various states opened the floodgates and the company has now become an easy target for anyone looking to make a quick buck. All anyone has to do is mention the "A" word (antitrust) and they walk away with millions.

$1.1 billion to settle California lawsuit: (January, 2003) The other states were another couple billion!

After becoming the top dog, Microsoft now is being sued by countles mangy curs that the company had routed over the years. Here's just a few:

$750 million to Netscape's undertaker, AOL Time Warner http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/29/technology/microsoft/ (May, 2003)

$23 million to ever-tragic Be: http://tinyurl.com/4c3lh
Way to go, Gassee! Now can you tell me why Be didn't also sue Apple for shutting them out of the desktop world? Huh? (September, 2003)

[For sadists only: The history of Be - http://news.com.com/2100-1040_3-271739.html]

Real Networks tries to cash in to the tune of a cool 1.1 billion after losing to Microsoft's media player: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1417871,00.asp (December, 2003) Real made sure to testify against Microsoft in the European Union case. (How altruistic of Real!)

$521 million to Eolas for a bogus, ultra-vague (ignoring prior art!) patent "infringement" that makes the Palm Vs. Xerox case look reasonable by comparison: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1436979,00.asp (January, 2004) Ironically, the patent that Microsoft supposedly infringed on was invalidated three months later! http://www.techworld.com/applications/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1165

$613 million fine from European Commission: http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=6174 (March, 2004)

$1.7 billion to Sun: http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040402_104915.html (April, 2004)

$536 million to sleazy Novell, who then turned around and tried to gouge Microsoft some more because Word kicked the crap out of WordPerfect 10 years ago! http://tinyurl.com/3m2ty (November, 2004)


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Wow. Around 8 BILLION (yes, BILLION) in just 2 years!
It's amazing Microsoft can still function in this environment.



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Try not to be such a dullard, lapdoggie.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/17/2005 3:18:13 AM # Q
Enjoy your new StinkPad, pal. Enjoy your upcoming RSI. That keyboard is made to induce RSI.

The Mac Mini is going to start biting billg in his a**. Just think of all those lost Mac Word sales -- because who wants that C-RAP when you can use Apple's Pages?

I have to move from Win98SE to something better. Do I really want XP after all the firsthand woes I've experienced from 98? Hell no. I'm sick of running Ad-Aware and Spybot after every net session.

And, gee, look at those iPod sales. After HOW many MP3 players have been thrown against the wall, only the iPod has stuck

Wake up, Mike. The X40 has the best keyboard of ANY minilaptop. In fact, IBM laptops tend to excel in terms of keyboard design. Too bad they're now being made in China. I realize you can't afford laptops, but at least try not to comment on things you know nothing about (everything?).

Keep your silly little Kube Komputer. $500 for a 1.25GHz PowerPC G4, 256MB SDRAM, 32 MB ATI Radeon 9200 and a 40GB Ultra ATA hard drive? No monitor? No mouse? No keyboard? No thanks. I can build a complete AMD computer for the same price that would blow your little Martha Stewart Living Kube out of the water. Hope you have fun shopping in the Mac section (shelf?) of stores. Start practicing: "Excuse me, but is Program X available for MAC?" "Sorry, Sir. No it isn't."

XP is stable. I'm running XP Professional on my laptop and it hasn't yet crashed.

The iPod's success had more to do with timing, industrial design and marketing than it did with it being a superior piece of hardware. The iPod sticks as well to walls as a steaming pile of feces. Enjoy your dung, Mike. You deserve it.

;-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-)

And in case you thought Apple was still a computer company:


http://www.computerweekly.com/Article134231.htm

"For the first time, the company earned more revenue from the iPod during the quarter than from any other product. Total revenue from iPod shipments was $537m with revenue from PowerBook sales trailing at $419m."

"For the 2004 fiscal year, Apple recorded revenue of $8.28bn and net income of $276m, both substantial increases over the company's results in 2003."



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
PilotMad @ 1/17/2005 3:50:44 AM # Q
I do not and would not disagree with you or anyone's view as we can all be wrong at times and i much prefer listening and offering perspectives rather than preaching.

Regarding a Collaboration/Pay Off or Arrangement rather depends on your perspective and degree of cynicism. I WAS suggesting that one of the benefits to Microsoft would be the DOJ and the European Commission off their backs and helping Aplple to help them. But why is this such a bad thing? I think we should all forget the politics, cynicism, hearsay, legal battles, motives, fears and just evaluate the company's products and their actions towards their customers. More simply, what have they done for me... and how do i feel about them.

Every company whose product i own has to answer this question to me (a customer) every single day, knowingly or unknowingly.

More so with IT and technology companies,the general rules of business simply don't apply. By the time an action is to take effect the landscape may have completely changed. The playing field is simply too vast, complicated and fast changing for any company to hold a monopoly reliably. No single company could ever hope to fully support or evolve a huge range of products simultaneously to the same degree as say a sizeable single company (or companies) involved with a narrowed range of related product at the same time competing against open source alternatives and standards and then correctly predict the direction and evolution of future technology. Even a simple mistake can be costly and crippling. It is not even reliable to hedge your bets with technology. There's always something different around the corner. The best you can hope for is to become a consistent player.

I believe Microsoft like all the other companies are constantly struggling to find new revenue streams and keep a high market share in business while pleasing their customers. As they are larger they simply cannot afford to ignore the various forces be it market, technology, customers/users or of late increasingly moral and ethical ones.

Clearly the first priority for a commercial company is to survive, grow their business, make money for as long as they can with as many advantages they can get/keep. Simple. Consequently, large successful companies are often obvious anti-competitive targets for everyone else. Rightly or wrongly. In many cases their presence alone is enough to cause an outcry of foul play and as a competitor why shouldn't you cry foul so that you might get an advantage out of it. Or better still get Microsoft to buy you out and or license YOUR technology (sometimes dubious and farcical) in the case of very small ones.

Should Microsoft just stop making making a product (usually a competent one) just because of that fact? I dont think so. I accept the premise and justification of their existence. Its simply business. I and understand perfectly that Palm or Microsoft would dump me in an instant for higher revenue spending customers however nicely they might put it.

Personally as a home consumer, for myself (and many others) my first priority is obtain a competent product that works, for the best value (not necessarily the cheapest, but at least certainly affordable), that benefits or improves my lifestyle/activities while being future proof. Like many i love the tags, attractive, future proof, updateable, most advanced, highly specified,performant, 'cutting edge', awards etc. But the harsh reality is that I dont have any particular brand loyalty and would switch to a competitor in an instant.

I can probably own a tv, or sofa (???) for 30 years and never change it. With a computer or software. No chance, not really practical. At least not yet. So there's no hypocrisy when i as a consumer, exercise my freedom of choice, show my loyalty by dumping my old supplier for a competitor. I know, perhaps more so than in any other playing field or industry i will have a choice. With the wonderful medium that is the Net i can seek an alternative product, produce something myself or contribute/start/use open source alternative. Or simply wait. Sooner or later something pops up.

I'm not inherently Anti or Pro anyone. For me its just business and good sense. I could try out Star Office, Open office or MS Office and would dump any (or all) of them in favour of the cheaper (as good, or maybe better) product. Even though i might not probably be using many of the new features.

If i uprade my Microsoft OS, it is because i want to use the newer features of newer software or upgrade to better hardware. Otherwise, if it isn't broke ...
Microsoft haven't been getting much revenue from me lately. But then not many have apart from Third party app vendors for the Palm and PalmOne and PalmSource.

The funny thing is, i am an independent contractor in the UK. Most of my work is corporate, not yet with Microsoft but who knows. I have just recently finished working with IBM and have worked with Oracle, Ford, (the old) Sequent, Data Sciences, Vodafone etc. But, i do not think in terms of loyalty. It is in terms of the right company product for the job at hand. I do not for one moment think that Microsoft would not be using Unix based platforms internally in their organisation despite their own OS products. Similarly, i recently teased one of the IBM consultants that they as a business unit would also recommend the competitor Oracle database product to their clients over their own DB2 offering in certain circumstances. But anyone who works in this area would know why this could happen.

Internally with corporate companies the world is not so black and white its grey. Mistakes can be crippling, losses frequent, margins next to nothing, invested into white elephants and the importance and needs of the customer is top priority. The only problem as ever is balancing/prioritorising your best customers/prospective customers and keeping their loyalty.

Large customers are mostly the same...

'We know you did this that was nice, a step in the right direction. Thanks. But what have you done lately and can you do this as well and for for less cost ....

Isn't it part of our original contract?

We'll get back to you when we've made our decision. Its company policy to review alternatives, we're on a budget'

We can all be hypocritical depending on which side of the fence we're sitting on. I frequently swap because it's a human thing to do and i'm not perfect nor care to be.
Does it matter? They are only corporations after all. I think on balance the trick is trying to be fair and to balance our criticisms.

I almost always make a point registering my dissatisfaction with a company's service as a matter of course if i feel sufficiently strongly. It's the least you can do. They might be able to take it on board if the get many of the same types of criticisms. If not then if move on (ie. vote with my feet) with no recriminations.

It would be nicer if we could have a bit more balance and fairness towards people like Jeff and Bill and their respective companies.

But i also appreciate the freedom of speech/views in most cases.


PM.
----------------------
Palm Nirvana or bust!

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
mikecane @ 1/17/2005 2:33:15 PM # Q
I'm already learning OS X, you toad. And I have firsthand (no pun intended, you turd) of getting RSI from a IBM Stinkpad, you billg lackey.

defaults com.palminfocenter.comments BanVoiceOfStupidity -bool yes

-- ah, if only PIC worked like OS X!

And the gaggle of links you posted just adds further proof that you are some pathetic b*st*rd who has no life outside of flashing his detumescent ego here in PIC Comments.

Here, Pavlov, your sex kitten waits you --

http://www.flickr.com/photos/macmercdotcom/3466250/

-- assume the position, cretin.

Unknown Command
mikecane @ 1/17/2005 2:45:55 PM # Q
OK, OK! Before everyone piles on: I'm just in my *first bloody day* of learning OS X -- from a book!

After I read my post, I saw my error: I left out write!

defaults write com.palminfocenter.comments BanVoiceOfReason -bool yes

Ah, if only that would work!

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
LiveFaith @ 1/18/2005 11:58:08 AM # Q
Bash Hawkins all you want boys and girls, but the following banner ad tells a mighty story of success for little P1(HS). Gotta love it when your vision gets to this point! :-D

http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/TreoEminem.gif

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Reply to this comment

The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2005 12:13:17 AM # Q
EET: How do you see your job as CTO for PalmOne?

Hawkins: I'm really a product guy. I tend to focus on the next big thing.

I was very involved in the Treo 600. I was almost not involved at all in the Treo 650. [Now] I am working on something else which is completely different. My value is trying to figure out how to get the next thing going.

Psssst, Jeff! Wanna know what you can do as Palm's "next big thing"? How about you:

1) Focus on QUALITY CONTROL. Palm's quality has now become a joke.

2) Release a Treo 200 based on the Sony Ericsson T630.

3) Release a PalmTop™ microlaptop using the UX50 or Zaurus as a template.

4) Focus your (very limited) resources on just two smartphones and two (or three at most) PDAs.

5) Licence a number of top level apps like HandyShopper, DateBk5, BackupMan, TealLock, Vindigo, DiddleBug, McPhling, Ultrasoft Money, McFile, Fonts4OS5 and LauncherX and make them part of the ROM. Give every PDA the core software that would make even a power user happy. Show people what PalmOS can do - RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!

6) Use high quality parts (good screens, magnesium or aluminum cases, good buttons, etc.) for every PDA.

7) Include Wi-Fi and Bluetooth in every PDA.

8) Create the ultimate wireless PDA with a GSM cellphone radio, Bluetooth + Wi-Fi connectivity. Talk via Bluetooth headset.
Internet anywhere, all the time™.

9) Dump the odious NVRAM and ship every new PDA with large amounts (at least 128 MB) of traditional RAM + a simplified method of file management. Even a newbie should not have to think too hard about how to load + use MP3, JPEG and other files on their expansion cards. Card Export II/Data Import (CLIE) style file loading ability should also be standard. And a 128 MB expansion card should be included with every PDA.

10) "Purchase" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) PalmSource, hire another 30 software engineers (or outsource the work) to fix PalmOS 5 and 6 problems and make a concerted effort to deliver PalmLinux before the end of 2005.


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Jeff, these are CONCRETE, realistic, easily-achievable "next big thing[s]" that might actually be helpful in saving Palm's a$$ from getting Netscaped by Microsoft withinin the next year or two. Not quite as "glamorous" as your pseudopsience neural net nonsense, but a he11 of a lot more practical.

Yours truly,
TVoR



******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING
twrock @ 1/14/2005 5:52:01 AM # Q
And Jeff Hawkins responds...

"We could be building more and better products, but we spend so much of our resources doing this stuff."--Jeff Hawkins

(Don't you love quotes out of context?)

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
mikecane @ 1/14/2005 9:49:50 AM # Q
>>>Not quite as "glamorous" as your pseudopsience neural net nonsense

Oh, now you're an expert on the human mind, are you? You with the clearly-massively-and-no-saving-it-so-please-do-us-a-favor-and-read-Final Exit-damaged brain!

Do you EVER learn to S T F U?

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
LiveFaith @ 1/14/2005 10:48:32 AM # Q
11) Bankrupt the company in favor of a power-users pipe dream.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
eick @ 1/14/2005 1:45:14 PM # Q
5) Licence a number of top level apps like HandyShopper, DateBk5, BackupMan, TealLock, Vindigo, DiddleBug, McPhling, Ultrasoft Money, McFile, Fonts4OS5 and LauncherX and make them part of the ROM. Give every PDA the core software that would make even a power user happy. Show people what PalmOS can do - RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!

Two problems with this, 1) it would raise the cost of the PDA too much and 2) it would alienate and take sales away from developers of competitive software like FileMan, ZLauncher and so on.

7) Include Wi-Fi and Bluetooth in every PDA.

Cost once again plus never used the bluetooth capability of my T3 and don't even know of anyplace around where I live that has public wi-fi hot spots. I am sure they are around but a better option would be to work with SanDisk and other manufactors of Wi-Fi SD cards on drivers. Either that or offer versions of Palm PDAs with and without Wi-Fi.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
hkklife @ 1/14/2005 3:04:58 PM # Q
I wish there was something akin to "Micro PCI" that could be installed internally within PDA formfactors.

For example, something like the Zire 72 could be sold camera-less at one price point, with a camera & BT for $75 more and with BT, wi-fi and a camera for $50 above that.

P1 could then keep their core retail business (say, 2 Zires, a Tungsten and 2 Treos) while offerng more specialized models from their website or exclusively through Amazon etc. Sorta like Dell but not offering custom-built models. Just a broader product mix than they currently do and trying to cater to the impulse retail low-end purchasers as well as to the fanatics like the PIC community who wouldn't shy from dropping $400 on a dream PDA on the web.

Example: Zire 72 in its current form sold retail & mail order. "Deluxe" Z72x model sold web only for $50-$75 more.

Whatever manufacturer really gets it going by offering some manner of customer-spec'd PDA will really hit the high end of the market with a bang IMHO.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2005 10:16:35 PM # Q
11) Bankrupt the company in favor of a power-users pipe dream.

Wrong. Most of the things mentioned can be easily and inexpensively achieved. More importantly, failure to do so is what will "bankrupt the company".


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2005 10:19:02 PM # Q
5) Licence a number of top level apps like HandyShopper, DateBk5, BackupMan, TealLock, Vindigo, DiddleBug, McPhling, Ultrasoft Money, McFile, Fonts4OS5 and LauncherX and make them part of the ROM. Give every PDA the core software that would make even a power user happy. Show people what PalmOS can do - RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!

Two problems with this, 1) it would raise the cost of the PDA too much and 2) it would alienate and take sales away from developers of competitive software like FileMan, ZLauncher and so on.

7) Include Wi-Fi and Bluetooth in every PDA.

Cost once again plus never used the bluetooth capability of my T3 and don't even know of anyplace around where I live that has public wi-fi hot spots. I am sure they are around but a better option would be to work with SanDisk and other manufactors of Wi-Fi SD cards on drivers. Either that or offer versions of Palm PDAs with and without Wi-Fi.

Nonsense. First of all, several of the best apps available for PalmOS are freeware while others (like Backupman) are extremely inexpensive. Palm could probably cut a deal to get BackupMan for $3 per copy. Add HandyShopper (freeware), DiddleBug (freeware), LauncherX and you've got a he11 of a lot more useful PDA for just a few dollars more. Palm couldn't care less about developers. They bought MultiMail, licenced Documents To Go and broke a bunch of third party apps with their hacked up latest versions of PalmOS 5. Ask the DateBk5 author if Palm cares about developers...

Just because you don't or can't use Bluetooth/Wi-Fi isn't a good reason for Palm to omit them. If Palm is serious about competing with PPC, they need to match its features. Bluetooth and Wi-Fi are cheap to implement, so cost is not an excuse. Sorry, but the "Zen of Palm" bull doesn't cut it anymore. (Oldtimers remember when Palm said no one needed color screens, high res, MP3, video, etc. - all when Palm lacked those features. i.e. "You don't need what we're too cheap/inept to provide".) Built in wireless is the only way to go. It's ridiculous to expect users to be swapping in cards (and losing storage) just to get wireless ability.



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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2005 10:38:55 PM # Q
I wish there was something akin to "Micro PCI" that could be installed internally within PDA formfactors.

For example, something like the Zire 72 could be sold camera-less at one price point, with a camera & BT for $75 more and with BT, wi-fi and a camera for $50 above that.

P1 could then keep their core retail business (say, 2 Zires, a Tungsten and 2 Treos) while offerng more specialized models from their website or exclusively through Amazon etc. Sorta like Dell but not offering custom-built models. Just a broader product mix than they currently do and trying to cater to the impulse retail low-end purchasers as well as to the fanatics like the PIC community who wouldn't shy from dropping $400 on a dream PDA on the web.

Example: Zire 72 in its current form sold retail & mail order. "Deluxe" Z72x model sold web only for $50-$75 more.

Whatever manufacturer really gets it going by offering some manner of customer-spec'd PDA will really hit the high end of the market with a bang IMHO.

I disagree. Palm needs to adhere to the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid. They can't afford extra unwanted inventory in the pipeline. 4 models is enough:

- High end Tungsten with all the bells + whistles
- Cheap (sup-$200) Tungsten E or Zire 72 type device
- High end Treo
- Cheap, basic phone-centric Treo

It's funny how some people (not you) don't seem to realize that without the Treo in the lineup, Palm would already have been slaughtered by its competition. Palm's current PDA lineup is not profitable.



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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
svrontis @ 1/15/2005 1:37:36 AM # Q
I see the M$ sponsored provocateurs are out in force today. Guys, you talk a lot about quality problems. Well, let's see your paymaster fix make ActiveSync actually synchronise without hanging or make the alarm reminders in Calendar work ... then we'll talk about quality. OK?

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
cbowers @ 1/15/2005 4:39:41 AM # Q
That's a Microsoft Software thing. Not a hardware thing. We're keeping our OS and Software, just asking for HP and Dell hardware (especially since it's at the same price point anyway). If PalmOne can't do it, give them the shove and license HP and Dell (and any other takers).

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/15/2005 1:57:25 PM # Q
I see the M$ sponsored provocateurs are out in force today. Guys, you talk a lot about quality problems. Well, let's see your paymaster fix make ActiveSync actually synchronise without hanging or make the alarm reminders in Calendar work ... then we'll talk about quality. OK?

It' sad to see brainwashed people like you so defensive that they can't even accept the reality of what Palm is doing. Most of us here feel PalmOS is "better" than PPC. Many of us have significant investments in PalmOS, with a few people depending on the platform for their livelihood. Being a Palm booster doesn't preclude realizing that PalmOS is running on second rate, overpriced hardware. Fixing the hardware deficiencies is fairly easy to do. Unfortunately, Palm appears to have no interest in selling quality hardware. If you think that's acceptable then ou're exactly the kind of person Palm will be selling to in the near future. Take away Treo sales and it becomes clear that most of Palm's PDAs are not selling at a rate to sustain the company. Even former staunch Palm Apologists have given up making excuses for Palm in the past several months. Wake up, Buddy.


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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
svrontis @ 1/15/2005 5:19:51 PM # Q
17) In the spirit of 'fighting fire with fire' - Implement a new p1 staff bonus plan to encourage annonymous posts made by WinCE/PPC discussion forums by p1 employees. The bonus formula should factor in: a) the number of unsubstantiated allegations and outright lies (really big lies score best); b) inflammatory and vitrolic language (extra points for abuse); c) a quotient which reflects the fear, uncertainty and doubt created in the mind of naive readers; and d) the bloody-minded persistence of the participating employee.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
twrock @ 1/16/2005 12:36:57 AM # Q
svrontis, I don't believe that is what we are seeing here. Why? Because for as much as I love Palm and hate anything M$, I have become very frustrated by recent events. Until recently, I could have with all honesty recommended to anyone I knew that they should consider buying a Palm handheld over a PPC. Now I can't automatically do that. If that is a result of others' intentional use of FUD, then they are exceedingly good at it, because I believe it is a result of an honest evaluation of the current situation.

I want Palm to succeed, both PalmSource and pa1mOne. I want to be able to choose to buy a quality handheld (or eventually a smartphone) at a fair price that does not run any version of Windows. I hate watching M$ win this game over and over again. And so you will see my frustration surface. If I really didn't think there was anything plmo or psrc could be doing about this, I would sit back and resign myself to the inevitable.

I do think we are seeing Palm enthusiasts who are simply very frustrated at what they believe to be management making very poor decisions that will eventually result in the death of Palm. When you see this type of criticism diminish, it will either be because Palm has finally started to turn this around, or the critics have finally resolved themselves to the death of Palm. I hope it is the former reason.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/16/2005 3:11:49 AM # Q
*SIGH* Conspiracy theory rears its ugly head again. Maybe the Lone Gunman is out to get Palm too? Ask yourself why people that have been regulars here for 4 or 5 years and Palm users for even longer are getting ready to throw in the towel. If you think Mike Cane or Bowers are Microsoft Astroturfers/FUD engineers you really need to get on the clue train.


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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

PalmOSDell - The Messiah or The Pariah?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/16/2005 3:11:49 AM # Q
While it now seems less likely given the ongoing decline of PalmOS, Dell could purchase PalmSource for $100 million or so and revamp the platform with some killer hardware. Dell and Microsoft have made strange bedfellows over the years, so this would put an interesting wrinkle on their relationship. Sony, IBM, Apple and Dell have been touted as Palm's saviours at various times over the past few years, but now the list of suitors is getting VERY short. Once PalmSource cleans house, a decision will have to be made on how to keep the OS afloat in a sea of blood red ink (while the PPC sharks are circling).


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
twrock @ 1/16/2005 3:45:11 AM # Q
"4 models is enough:
- High end Tungsten with all the bells + whistles
- Cheap (sup-$200) Tungsten E or Zire 72 type device
- High end Treo
- Cheap, basic phone-centric Treo"

BTW, just so nobody mistakenly thinks I agree with everything TVoR is saying (shudder), here's just one example. I certainly think there is still room for three levels in the P1 handheld line-up:
- a sub-$100 entry level machine on which people will primarily use the built-in PIM apps, on sale in your Wal-mart checkout lane
- $200 machine for those who have figured out that this thing can really do some work with a nice set of third-party apps and need something more under the hood to do it
- high end machine with all the bells & whistles (which is NOT the current T5)

(I'll save the phone discussion for another day.)

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
mikecane @ 1/16/2005 11:41:32 AM # Q
Forget Apple buying Palm. Apple will most likely team with Sony and we will see a Sony U series-like device (with Apple name on it) running OS X = Mac Mobile. Jobs was right for avoiding PDAs. He is also currently avoiding "smartphones." Another, pardon the redundancy, smart move, I think.

As for p1 and PS, this could be their final year to save themselves.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/16/2005 2:36:55 PM # Q
BTW, just so nobody mistakenly thinks I agree with everything TVoR is saying (shudder), here's just one example. I certainly think there is still room for three levels in the P1 handheld line-up:
- a sub-$100 entry level machine on which people will primarily use the built-in PIM apps, on sale in your Wal-mart checkout lane
- $200 machine for those who have figured out that this thing can really do some work with a nice set of third-party apps and need something more under the hood to do it
- high end machine with all the bells & whistles (which is NOT the current T5)

(I'll save the phone discussion for another day.)

Actually, you're still agreeing with everything I'm saying. I've said all along that a third PDA model (a cheap $80 - $120 model) might be helpful. Not for the bottom line (profits from el cheapo models are too slim) but rather to keep attracting new users to the platform to replace those defecting to PPC and smartphones.

But the sub-$200 Treo is by far the most important model. If Palm doesn't introduce the Treo 200 before Fall, 2005 I think the platform will become Netscaped by 2006. When people look back at what killed Palm, everyone will realize it was failure to aggressively saturate the cellphone world with PalmOS in 2004/2005.


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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

The PDA is dead! Long live the PDA!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/16/2005 3:25:52 PM # Q
Forget Apple buying Palm. Apple will most likely team with Sony and we will see a Sony U series-like device (with Apple name on it) running OS X = Mac Mobile. Jobs was right for avoiding PDAs. He is also currently avoiding "smartphones." Another, pardon the redundancy, smart move, I think.

As for p1 and PS, this could be their final year to save themselves.

Apple is now strictly a fashion design house, Mike. Their days as an adventurous tech company are long gone. Apple was burned once before with the Newton - ahead of its time, but far too bulky and overpriced. The New Apple is all about Image and Marketing. Cynical $350 "U2 Edition" iPods made in China for less than $50 rank right up there with the "Special Edition" Claudia Schiffer, Michael Jordan and Mr. T Palms.

Like it or not, the PDA fad is over. Semi-smart and even regular cellphones can now store contact info (probably the most important function of PDAs) and some can import daily schedule info from Outlook. Suddenly those tiny, cool-looking cellphones have made PDAs redundant for a lot of people. PDAs needed to evolve and reinvent themselves to survive. Sony spent countless millions developing designs that might move PDAs to the next level:

UX50 - microlaptop replacement
TH55 - solid evolution of the traditional PDA
VZ90 - Video player/MP3 player

Ironically, after using us for beta testers for the past 4 years, Sony pulled the plug just when it looked like they were getting things right. Palm is acting like a dimwitted dinosaur these days and models like the Tungsten "5" suggest the company has neither the will nor the money to create cutting edge designs. Palm's glacial pace of "innovation" has finally caught up to them. Sadly, after being handed the brilliant Treo 600 on a silver platter, Palm sat on the design over the past year and served up a mildly refreshened Treo 650. Par for the course.

I recently bought an IBM X40. The real future is a device like that, shrunk down to half the size and weighing a pound or so, running "Real Windows". Keyboards are essential. Tiny Bluetooth-enabled semi-smart and smart phone will handle simple PIM functions from now on. Sony tried to save PDAs, but got cold feet. 2005 will be remembered as the year PDAs died.

The PDA is dead! Long live the PDA!


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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The NEXT BIG THING™ from Jeff Hawkins:
twrock @ 1/16/2005 11:03:00 PM # Q
I wrote, "...here's just one example."

TVoR replied, "Actually, you're still agreeing with everything I'm saying."

Not to be too picky, but I did say it was "one example." There are others. But you have made some very good points in this thread with which I do agree.

Carry on....

Reply to this comment

neural networks

bigjarom @ 1/14/2005 3:58:38 AM # Q
"Hawkins: There is no computer in the world that [can] tell cats from dogs or people from cars."

This isn't true. I worked in a lab where these are exactly the kinds of things we did. A neural network can be 'trained' to do all these things he talks about. And this isn't brand new technology either. appearantly it's new to Hawkins though.

RE: neural networks
moot @ 1/14/2005 11:50:23 AM # Q
Hawkins spends a chapter in the book talking about neural networks. I think the quote you used is a bit misleading in its message (not from you quoting, but from him saying it). The chapter on neural networks very clearly discusses the effectiveness in training networks to various behaviours. However, as is the entire overtone of the book, behavior =/= intelligence. His main beef with neural networks is that while they can be trained to do great things, they don't 'understand' what they are doing.

I think what he is trying to say with that quote is that a neural network can be trained to recognize the image of a cat or a dog, but it isn't able to comprehend what it is looking at, just that it has seen something like it before.

Granted, I know very little about neural networks, and if they are able of comprehension, my apologies. I'm just trying to interpret the meaning of his quote based on the tone of his book.

RE: neural networks
RhinoSteve @ 1/14/2005 1:35:18 PM # Q
Neural Networks and AI, is pretty much yet another attempt to find God in technology. While there are tons and tons of tricks that can be done to do recogintion and imitage behavior, all you are really doing is modeling reactive elements of the lowest part if the mind.

What really gets me is how so many of these researchers rejects the realm of the spiritual which is so much more powerful than anything that can come out of a research lab.

If you want to burn a lot of research cash, keep unpeeling that material union to find that there is nothing at the center. The truth is the "magic" of intelligence is not in the physical universe. The answers exist in the many, many original text of spiritual works that are both very old and very new. You just have to be humble enough to walk away from your lab and start reading.
RE: neural networks
numlock @ 1/14/2005 5:37:03 PM # Q
Well put Steve. Reminds me of an Ian Brown quote, "there are no lions in England"
Reply to this comment

Most critical for Jeff Hawkins to concentrate

vesther @ 1/14/2005 10:15:29 AM # Q
I have to say that I'm very disappointed with Jeff Hawkins' performance over the last couple of months because him being the originator of the Palm Pilot, I have to say that his reputation has been waning lately. Here are the most critical things Mr. Hawkins need to do:

* Focus on QUALITY CONTROL. PalmOne's handheld quality is unsatisfactory over the last couple of months. Each handheld feels like it has been rushed to the market. You need to test out and prove the handheld before putting it into the market. Furthermore, each handheld must be thoroughly tested to make sure it's free of defects. There has been too many Returns lately due to lack of quality control.

* Better Quality parts. The most recent model, the Tungsten T5, suffers HEAVILY from crappy parts, horrendous plastic casing, and (URGH) the controversial NVFS System. The Tungsten T5 is a horrible value because it virtually requires you to pay more for less. All High-End Handhelds that Mr. Hawkins in the future MUST possess the following qualities:
- High-Quality, Smoothly-brushed, Anodized Aluminum Metal Case
- Super High-Quality, Durable, OLED Screens
- Vibrate on Alarm, Charge Indicator, Traditional Memory
- Better Third-Party Application Compatibility, especially with Decuma!!!
I really hate to rate the Tungsten T5 very low but because of the crappy overall quality of the Tungsten T5, I can't rate it above the Tungsten T3 because of the poorly made body.

These are the most critical components Mr. Hawkins need to concentrate on.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

RE: Most critical for Jeff Hawkins to concentrate
Wollombi @ 1/14/2005 2:57:24 PM # Q
Actually, the build quality of the T5 is just fine. There are some issues to be worked out with NVRAM, but much of that is just as much due to improper coding by 3rd parties as it is due to bugs in the OS. However, this has little to do with the physical build quality of the T5, which is quite good.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

Reply to this comment

Buh-bye Hawkins

tthiel @ 1/14/2005 10:46:16 AM # Q
Great. Hawkins was the original innovator of the Palm pilot. Nice. But he took tiny little baby steps in improving it over the years and now he spends all his time on something else when he's not buy selling shares. This is about technology and a company that is barely afloat and its all about what have you done for me lately now what did you do 10 years ago. The Palm board should dump his ass but they are obviously clueless so thats probably not going to happen. I love how people complain about "whiners" when thats exactly what they are doing. Go ahead and drink the Kool-aid then. Its gotten you a T5. Happy?

RE: Buh-bye Hawkins
hkklife @ 1/14/2005 10:52:51 AM # Q
Keep in mind that all of the "work" he did on the Treo 600 was actually done during his Handspring tenure. P1 did nothing to that model other than rebadge a Handspring product and tweak the software a tad. I really don't see him being anything more than a less charismatic Nolan Bushnell with more lofty aspirations and a worse business mind. I predict we'll continue to see more of the same behavior until he's out of shares to unload.

I'd love to see a no-holds barred interview with Hawkins from someone who fielded questions submitted by the Palm community--Primarily, why the lack of user-selectable G1/G2 and why Hawkins, as the "inventor" of Graffiti just rolled over and let Xerox walk all over him. Wouldn't he/P1 stand to profit enormously if Graffiti were LICENSED or sol as a plug-in add-on software package?

(read this interview for more info:
http://www.palmloyal.com/new/index2.php?option=content&task=view&id=71&pop=1&page=0

continued: Why the diminishing quality levels on P1 products, Hawkins' thoughts on the Be & ChinaMobileSoft acquisitions, the departure of all major licensees and the loss of direct competition to P1 etc etc.

It's funny to think back to how Hawkins blasted the Zoomer, Wizard, Newton, MagicLink etc back in the early 90s but seems blissfully ignorant to the problems currently plaguing P1. Just like TVoR & Vesther said above, quality control MUST be stressed!!!!! Those old brick-sized PDAs of the early/mid 90s had terrible hardware and enen worse OSs but the one thing they did have going for them is that they were build like tanks.

RE: Buh-bye Hawkins
SeldomVisitor @ 1/14/2005 11:08:50 AM # Q
PLMO continues to use Hawkins' "name". If he is cheap enough it ay be cost-effective as a marketing tool to keep him onboard, though his public statements (or LACK of them!) about his ongoing relationship wuth PLMO might be somewhat of a negative...

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Putting his Palm history aside, it's actually a good book.

moot @ 1/14/2005 11:26:15 AM # Q
I don't really care what all Jeff has done that deserves criticism or ill will. If you put who wrote it out of mind, and just read the book, it is, simply put, fascinating. I may not agree with everything in it, but as a whole, it does a very convincing job at showing why Artificial Intelligence of today will never be truly 'intelligent'. The human brain can recognize a face in a fraction of a second, yet a computer needs billions of operations to even have a chance, and all that it is really doing is matching pixel patterns and not understanding what it is looking at. We don't need more powerful computers, we need a different computing model entirely.

And the book is written in such a way that even the non-specialist should be able to grasp the concepts. Regardless of if it is all accurate or not (after all, it's just his 'theory'), it does provide a good, thought provoking read for anyone even remotely interested in AI or the human brain. If even half of it turns out to be accurate, then computers have a long long way to go.

RE: Putting his Palm history aside, it's actually a good boo
OrionNE @ 1/14/2005 11:57:27 AM # Q
I lost all respect for Hawkins when he treated all the developer community like crap. HandSpring boasted the SpringBoard. Hawkins rallied developers to create the expensive springboard devices. Many small upstart companies with talented engineers and developers bought into his proprietary design with the HandSpring promise that all HandSpring PDA's will support the SpringBoard slot.

Then Hawkins decides the "Next Big Thing" doesn’t need the SpringBoard. So HandSpring calls the TREO a communicator. This way there are no lawsuits about the new device not having the SpringBoard slot. This will make the comment about all HandSpring PDA's having Springboad slot is true.

Oh by the way HandSpring no longer will make PDA's just communicators.

Now you have all these companies who put their money into a dream of creating a technology business that just got thrown away like a used paper plate. Warehouse full of expensive Springboards that will not sell for 1/2 what it cost to make them. Hawkins caused a lot of small companies to go under. My opinion is Hawkins will tell you anything you want to hear to get your money and support but then he will do whatever he likes with no regard to what promises he makes.

The man is a crook who got lucky with the Star Trek device idea that he saw on a T.V. show. He carved a little piece of wood and carried it around to pretend he was Captain Kirk.

That is may take on the guy.
OrionNE

RE: Putting his Palm history aside, it's actually a good boo
SeldomVisitor @ 1/14/2005 12:49:36 PM # Q
Goodness!

But Hawkins is a GENIUS, didn't you know!

Giggle.

RE: Putting his Palm history aside, it's actually a good boo
Wollombi @ 1/14/2005 3:04:10 PM # Q
>>"I lost all respect for Hawkins when he treated all the developer community like crap...
The man is a crook who got lucky with the Star Trek device idea that he saw on a T.V. show. He carved a little piece of wood and carried it around to pretend he was Captain Kirk..."<<

Wow, harsh words from someone who conveniently forgot to include Donna Dubinski and other leaders at Handspring that were complicit in the decisions you complain about. The company as a whole made those decisions, not just Hawkins himself.

If you had made a credible arguement, one might listen to what you had to say, but since you failed (miserably), you only lose credibility yourself.

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

RE: Putting his Palm history aside, it's actually a good book.
cbowers @ 1/15/2005 4:48:27 AM # Q
But the buck stops at the top.

RE: Putting his Palm history aside, it's actually a good boo
OrionNE @ 1/15/2005 12:54:12 PM # Q
Yeah, Ok Sean, You understood the point. Donna had nothing to do with the "Creativity" that was all Hawkins if you go back and read the interviews done when they formed Handspring.
My bet is Hawkins came up with the Treo didn't want the Springboard and went to Donna and the rest of the group and said What should I do? Then they cooked up the communicator idea. If he is so innocent why has he hidden all these years from the developer community. When was the last time you saw him at a PalmSorce convention? Wake up! He knew he was screwing the little guy. But of course it's a communicator right? Not a PDA.

Some people lost a lot from that deception. Just when the Springboards were starting to hit the market. Handspring pulls the plug and markets the Treo leaving all the companies that helped create the buzz for Handsping out in the cold losing money.

Yeah, I don't know nothing.


RE: Putting his Palm history aside, it's actually a good book.
hkklife @ 1/15/2005 2:11:45 PM # Q
HS should have kept at least one model of Springboard-enabled Visor in production for another 6 months to a year after the annoucement of the Treo (Prism II w/ 66mhz Dragonball &16mb memory would have been perfect). The Edge should have shipped with a SD slot and transitioned the way to a Springboard-less future. Keep in mind that the only revolutionary products HS ever released were the Edge and the Treo--the Visors were essentially very minor cosmetic tweaks on the original Visor 8mb. The initial Treo line should also have been SD-equipped and some sort of migration program could/should have been developed to ease users from the SB to SD. As far as the mom'n pop devlopers who lost their shirts when they bet the farm on Springboard...well, there's nothing HS could really have done about that other than making a firm statement back in '01 that the SB's days were numbered instead of saying "Visors are still in production and an integral part of our future plans" or whatever similar mumbo-jumbs they were spewing at the time.

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A Novel?

ocspub @ 1/14/2005 1:47:22 PM # Q
> His latest novel On Intelligence, discusses Hawkins theory...

It's a novel??

Oliver


Visit www.tapland.com for Zodiac news and discussion.

RE: A Novel?
Wollombi @ 1/14/2005 3:08:09 PM # Q
Well, it's a novel idea anyway. =P

_________________
Sean

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

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I made the switch! Hawkins vs. Gates?

oceanman177 @ 1/17/2005 7:37:53 AM # Q
The time has come. It all began several years ago when I purchased a Visor- a little 2mg thing that couldn't even hold Avantgo without crashing on a daily basis. Then my Visor edge. Crash! Hard Reset! Then my Zire 21 CRASH! FATAL ERROR! PAINT PEELING! And last but not least, my beloved Tungsten C........
CRASH!!!! FATAL ERROR at least once a week, sometimes more than once a day. Last night I order a Dell Axim X50v, a windows OS. I have to tell you, I'm looking forward to this.
Hawkins thinks that the brain works like a machine. If my brain worked like the products that he created, I would have alzheimers.

RE: I made the switch! Hawkins vs. Gates?
mikecane @ 1/17/2005 2:58:11 PM # Q
Come back and share.

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