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Comments on: IDC: Third Straight Year of Handheld Decline

The latest report out of analyst group IDC states that, the worldwide market for handheld devices experienced its fourth successive quarter of year-over-year decline in the fourth quarter of 2004.
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What of the Treo?

Captain Hair @ 2/2/2005 1:18:33 PM # Q
QUOTE:
Handheld devices do not include telephony but may include wireless capabilities that enable Internet access and text communication. These devices feature evolved operating systems or applications environments such as the Palm OS, Windows Mobile Pocket PC, Linux, or other proprietary platforms with the ability to download, run applications, and store user data beyond their required PIM capabilities.
END QUOTE

Thus, none of the ONE MILLION Treos supposedly sold aren't counted? Smooth.

"People who think they're smart annoy those of us who are."

RE: What of the Treo?
Admin @ 2/2/2005 1:25:18 PM # Q
The Treo usually gets put in the smartphone category (ie not counted in this report) so it gets included with the gobs of Symbian devices shipped that are counted in the separate smartphone reports.

-Ryan

RE: What of the Treo?
Captain Hair @ 2/2/2005 1:34:38 PM # Q
Isn't that just peachy. I do seem to recall that it is a PDA!

"People who think they're smart annoy those of us who are."
RE: What of the Treo?
mikecane @ 2/2/2005 1:46:22 PM # Q
The Treo is a phone with PDA functionality. Not a PDA with phone functionality (ie, PPC Phone Edition).

RE: What of the Treo?
albertc @ 2/2/2005 2:09:58 PM # Q
Not sure. Canalys also released their Q4 figures for 'mobile devices', including feature phones, smartphones, WAN and non-WAN handhelds, and palmOne comes out with 1.503.590 units (please see http://www.canalpda.com/displayarticle301.html ). If IDC didn't include the million Treos, they should be talking about half a million palmOne handhelds.

Regards


----------
Albert Cuesta
http://www.canalpda.com

RE: What of the Treo?
ginsberg @ 2/2/2005 3:35:35 PM # Q
IDC's definition of a PDA is rather exclusive, especially compared to Gartner's.

IDC not only excludes the Treo, which I can understand because it is a smartphone, but IDC also fails to include wireless PDAs such as the iPAQ 6315 and the RIM BlackBerries.

By excluding any device that offers WAN or WLAN connectivity, within a couple of years IDC will have defined PDAs out of existence.

RE: What of the Treo?
Puppy @ 2/2/2005 3:50:11 PM # Q
That's such a crock. The Treo is a PDA. It's also a phone. If anything, it (and similar devices) should be counted in both reports.

I love how if you slap a Wifi radio in a PDA it's still a PDA, but if you stick a CDMA or GSM radio in a PDA it's magically no longer a PDA :P

RE: What of the Treo?
Puppy @ 2/2/2005 3:52:30 PM # Q
Wait...you mean these numbers don't include PDAs with ANY wireless? Umm...that excludes the majority of PDAs on the market, and all but one Dell model. Yeah, that's meaningful.

I think car sales reports should exclude cars that come with high end stereo systems, since those are really just stereos, not cars.

RE: What of the Treo?
Captain Hair @ 2/2/2005 4:48:04 PM # Q
No, Wi-fi and Bluetooth are included. Telephony is not.

"People who think they're smart annoy those of us who are."
RE: What of the Treo?
cbowers @ 2/2/2005 6:48:32 PM # Q
"I do seem to recall that it is a PDA!"

Then reacquaint yourself with it at www.palmone.com
PalmOne themselves put it in the smartphone section of their site, differentiating it from their handhelds.

In its list of features, "phone" is listed first in "Phone, Web, Email and organizer all in one."

And later on the Treo 600 page:
"Everything a smartphone should be. It's still a smartphone. Only it's smarter. With a built-in camera and one-handed navigation, the Treo 600 makes it easy to get more done. The real beauty? It's the size of a mobile phone. Really."

In the numbers gamer here,
PDA + Phone = PDA (and maybe a smart licensee)
Phone + PDA = smartphone

RE: What of the Treo?
moofie @ 2/2/2005 11:32:19 PM # Q
In the numbers gamer here,
PDA + Phone = PDA (and maybe a smart licensee)
Phone + PDA = smartphone


Er, I seem to remember that addition is commutative. So, therefore:

PDA+Phone=Phone+PDA.

I mean, sure, if you stand to profit from selling reports that say that handhelds are going away, sure. Draw whateverlines you want. What significance does this have to a user?

Zero.

My Treo is My PDA
DarthRepublican @ 2/3/2005 12:04:22 AM # Q
I've been using PalmOS PDAs for years. I've gone through a Palm III, a Visor Deluxe, a Palm IIIc, a Visor Platinum with a VisorPhone, a Visor Pro with a VisorPhone, a Visor Prism, a Treo 180g, a Treo 270, a Tungsten E, and now a Treo 600. Do you know what they all had in common? They were all PDAs. They all held my calendar and addressbook. They all held my memos. They all allowed me to read e-books. Some of them had better screens. Some of them were also phones.

But they were all PDAs and no marketing report will convince me otherwise. Enough with this war of semantics. Standalone PDAs may go away someday but only because they've evolved into Smartphones. Smartphones *are* PDAs.

Why we differentiate PDAs and smartphones
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/3/2005 12:24:38 AM # Q
PDA+Phone=Phone+PDA.

I mean, sure, if you stand to profit from selling reports that say that handhelds are going away, sure. Draw whateverlines you want. What significance does this have to a user?

Zero.

Nonsense. PDA + smartphone sales are broken down to better show what the trends are. While some of the ways used to define the two basic categories are questionable, to lump them all together would be naive.

Sales figures for cars and trucks are separated for similar reasons. And like PDAs, it's now difficult to fit certain vehicles into one particular type.


KISS Principle definitions:
- "Smartphone" = PDA with integrated cellphone radio
- "PDA" = PDA without integrated cellphone radio

The significance is in manufacturers basing long term production plans on current demand for a given form factor.


******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: What of the Treo?
ginsberg @ 2/3/2005 2:11:12 AM # Q
Adding a cellular radio to a PDA does not automatically make it a smartphone, just as adding a TV tuner card to a PC does not suddenly make it into a TV.

A smartphone is a PDA in phone's clothing. Smartphones are voice-centric -- the phone function takes precedence in the design.

A wireless PDA may include a cellular radio, but it is a data-centric device in which the phone capability is a secondary function.

For example, most BlackBerry users still use a cellphone, but most Treo users use it as their primary mobile phone.



RE: What of the Treo?
mikecane @ 2/3/2005 9:34:02 AM # Q
And which *phone store* do people buy Zires and Tungstens in?

Case closed.

RE: What of the Treo?
Puppy @ 2/3/2005 3:44:17 PM # Q
I can't believe anyone can actually argue with a straight face that a "smart phone" isn't a PDA. It is a phone, but it's also a PDA.

It would be equally stupid to not count it in lists of phones sold, because you were claiming it's really a PDA. It should be on BOTH lists.

RE: What of the Treo?
ginsberg @ 2/3/2005 6:35:29 PM # Q
If the research houses that count Treo shipments considered them in their PDA and in their smartphone numbers, they would be double-counted if the numbers were added together. Obviously, this would confuse and anger their clients.

You have to draw the line somewhere, just as you would if you were counting cars and trucks. Nobody would be happy if the Humvees were counted in both groups.

So IDC draws the line where a cellular radio is embedded. Gartner has a considerably different definition that considers the device design and usage. The gap between IDC's and Gartner's PDA numbers gets bigger every quarter.

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It's cyclical, just like the economy

Wollombi @ 2/2/2005 1:33:52 PM # Q
Of course handheld shipments have gone down steadily since 2001. Most of what people consider disposable income has decreased dramatically since then as well. If consumers don't feel they have the money to spend on them, they aren't going to buy them, instead using their older one a little bit longer or just not buying one for the time being. With signs of the economy picking up but not fully recovering, I think it may be a year or two before handheld sales go up as well. This also fits with the timetables of innovative device makers such as Tapwave, who reportedly don't plan to release a new device until 2006.

The fact is, the economy was just passing it's peak in 2001, which was when handheld sales were at their highest. After it started to decline and then suffered a serious setback with Sept. 11, people started saving their extra money in case things got hard. When the economy picks up, so will sales.

_________________
Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

RE: It's cyclical, just like the economy
mikecane @ 2/2/2005 1:47:17 PM # Q
And yet the Mac Mini and the iPod Shuffle are hard to find and have a 3-4 week backlog at Apple's online store.

There goes that hypothesis...

RE: It's cyclical, just like the economy
tthiel @ 2/2/2005 4:05:23 PM # Q
People are spending money like crazy as usual. Its just that a PDA is not the cool status thing it used to be. I used to see so many people with PDA's that never used them. They just sat on peoples desks and gathered dust. Now they are back to their paper planners. If PDA's companies made something with a reasonable price that people couldn't live without it would sell. Look at the Tungsten 5. Overpriced, poor quality, FEWER features than its predecessor! Yawn.

RE: It's cyclical, just like the economy
svrontis @ 2/2/2005 10:59:56 PM # Q
I wonder if the figures for Dell include the 'give-aways'? Let me explain - 5 of our IT managers got 'gift' Axims recently, because we allowed Dell to tender for some computer equipment we need to buy - our IT people say that Dell are doing a lot of this sort of thing.

RE: It's cyclical, just like the economy
Puppy @ 2/3/2005 1:54:52 AM # Q
I don't understand why so many people don't use/"get" what PDAs are about. I've been asked by different people why I don't just use pen and paper. My response is...should I go back to using pen and paper instead of a computer? I mean it's like they just don't get it. You've got a portable PC right in your hand, access to almost anything you need right there.

But I recall it being the same way with PCs twenty years ago. People just didn't "get" what they could do for you, and it took an overwhelming pressense in everyday life for it to just become normal to people. Same thing will happen with PDAs (or "Smartphones" or whatever they may call them...even if they are PDAs).

RE: It's cyclical, just like the economy
Gar @ 2/3/2005 8:38:24 AM # Q
... and Apple Computer is going under this year for sure. Every year there is the same story. It's all about how you want to read the numbers. Sad here is the fact they don't include all of the sales to better prove their point.

-----------------
My wife has to sell a lot of candles (www.ccandles.com) to buy her new Palm.
RE: It's cyclical, just like the economy
Wollombi @ 2/3/2005 2:45:03 PM # Q
>>"And yet the Mac Mini and the iPod Shuffle are hard to find and have a 3-4 week backlog at Apple's online store.

There goes that hypothesis..."<<

People are spending SOME money in SOME segments, yes. But it's not yet enought to make businesses feel comfortable about increased spending or investment, including on things like PDA's. If they it were, then we'd all have our dream jobs by now, wouldn't we? =P

Seriously, if Palm et all could make these things more attractive than laptops to consumers, I wager they would see a lot more consumer sales in the future. But even the capabilities PDA's do have aren't promoted enough by any of the PDA makers, so the average Joe still looks at it as an expensive calander/planner. PDA's as a whole need and deserve better mindshare.

_________________
Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

RE: It's cyclical, just like the economy
Wollombi @ 2/3/2005 2:45:03 PM # Q
>>"And yet the Mac Mini and the iPod Shuffle are hard to find and have a 3-4 week backlog at Apple's online store.

There goes that hypothesis..."<<

People are spending SOME money in SOME segments, yes. But it's not yet enought to make businesses feel comfortable about increased spending or investment, including on things like PDA's. If they it were, then we'd all have our dream jobs by now, wouldn't we? =P

Seriously, if Palm et all could make these things more attractive than laptops to consumers, I wager they would see a lot more consumer sales in the future. But even the capabilities PDA's do have aren't promoted enough by any of the PDA makers, so the average Joe still looks at it as an expensive calander/planner. PDA's as a whole need and deserve better mindshare.

_________________
Sean

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.

RE: It's cyclical, just like the economy
ackmondual @ 2/3/2005 8:51:15 PM # Q
So true about re-using old technology as well. I met a coworker still using a 3+ year old m505 (the grayscale one) with NiCD rechargeable batteries. Others who still use grayscale Visors.. esp. the Visor Edge.

//QUOTE
I don't understand why so many people don't use/"get" what PDAs are about. I've been asked by different people why I don't just use pen and paper. My response is...should I go back to using pen and paper instead of a computer? I mean it's like they just don't get it. You've got a portable PC right in your hand, access to almost anything you need right there.
//END

First off, I'm sure some of them do get it. They just feel they don't need it. I certainly get what camera phones and ipods are about, but I'm just not sold despite them being great devices. A cam phones jacks up the price of the phone, requires a 2 year contract in many cases, and adds unneccessary extra monthly charges. For the price of an ipod, i'd rather get a better PDA. I don't need THAT much music. I listen to it in small chunks at at time.

Otherwise, I don't buy it. It's certainly NOT TRUE with desktops and laptops. The vast majority of ppl who use those haven't given up on paper, and neither do PDA users. PDA users simply put more stuff into electronic format to take advantages of its features and convenience.

Reply to this comment

hp MIA?

mikecane @ 2/2/2005 1:48:49 PM # Q
hp introduced yet more PPCs last quarter. These are black, not silver, and are all QVGA. I haven't seen them in a single retail store, however. Has anyone?

RE: hp MIA?
LiveFaith @ 2/2/2005 2:38:10 PM # Q
Mike,
I've only seen the new HP's at the Darth Vader Convention. Not suprisingly, they are losing market share in a hurry with those ugly things. Wow. IMO the iPAqs went from 1st to worst in a hurry.

Dell picked up their far-eastern design firm and viola market share is increasing.

The much maligned PalmOne is amazingly still hanging strong. Funny how they have a knack at survival.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: hp MIA?
hkklife @ 2/2/2005 3:00:08 PM # Q
Ditto on the "Attack of the HP Darth Vader Clones". Ugh!
It's amazing indeed how well P1 hangs in there despite an aging, underwhelming lineup that doesn't have uniform PalmOne branding on its handhelds. Let's see what happens this spring/fall if they actually come out with some compelling new handhelds that offer reasonable bang for the $.

RE: hp MIA?
cbowers @ 2/2/2005 5:21:08 PM # Q
Luckily for PalmOne HP's also still MIA in the list of PalmOS licensees.
From the numbers above, I'd guess if they were present, HP's shipments would be double, and PalmOne would be left at or below Dell's numbers (Treo's excepted of course).

Moreover I'd be fine with that. If PalmOne wants to hang their future on Treos (which the absence of PDA's their installed user base are asking for, and their competition in the PPC camp are providing, seems to indicate), let them do so.

At this late date in the sagging platform, I don't care whose name is on the PDA, as long as it's running PalmOS, and is finally running on the hardware of the Jones'.

PalmOne's numbers decline quarter after quarter not because of the reasons they spout, but because users like me stick with their Tungsten C's and T3's until someone comes out with something iPaq-like or better. At this point it looks more likely that MS will get the PocketPC(or whatever it's called this week) to something viable before PalmOne gets back to viable hardware. It's 2005 and PalmOne's latest Tungsten still fails to include basic features that HandEra shipped in 2001:
-dual slots (with driver support for a *wide* range of non-palmone 3rd party cards, including ethernet, WiFi, bluetooth, CDPD, Barcode wand/laserscanner/hand scanner, GPS, etc)
-standard DC port
-user-replaceable lithium ion battery
-an LED that shows charging status and battery info in the launcher that even displays the discharge rate in milliamps.
-built-in backup to card software
-voice recording with no comprimises (a mic, dedicated button, and the ability to play these sounds in the built in file manager, as voice attachments to ToDo's, or play a voice memo as an alarm attached to a Datebook item). Granted these last features were in their OS4 which was under non-public beta for much of the 330's life but not released before they were edged out of the market.

Happily most of the rest of their innovations have made it into at least some of PalmOne's models.

But can we standardize of a robust case enclosure and a connector already? Instead of this waffling back and forth between metal and platic in the Tungsten line. And you've sold your last sled like accessory to me with this connector change again. I've got even *less* reason to buy a PalmOne device as my next replacement now don't I? That's like a phone carrier enticing a customer to renew their contract by saying "oh by the way, you have to pick a new phone number too).

I got no more patience for PalmOne's reasons for not putting features A, B, C *and* D, into a device when HandEra did it 4 years ago, and HP and Dell do it daily today, and for a lower sticker price.

Same rant I make every year, only many paragraphs shorter. PalmOne, build them or get out. PalmSource - Your licensing people aren't getting it done. Get it *done*.

Enough with the whining about declining market share. *You* make the market. Reference the ipod, and Mac Mini product segments, as imperfect products as they are, they go a *lot* further towards meeting expectations than the Tungsten "T5". Apple *made* their market, even as Palm did back in the day. Get back to making your market. Some 4000 years ago, the concept was you reap what you sow (Job 4:8 I believe). Today the contemporary business translation is, if you build crap, you get crappy quarter after quarter sales figues.

Reply to this comment

Symbian OS™ version 9

mikecane @ 2/2/2005 1:54:59 PM # Q
Oh where oh where has that little Cobalt gone?

Oh where oh where can it beeeee?

http://www.symbian.com/press-office/2005/pr050202.html

RE: Symbian OS™ version 9
temp_user @ 2/2/2005 3:27:52 PM # Q
Cobalt is waiting! And for me the logic is simple. If palmone gets away with selling Garnet, they will not release Cobalt. They know, cobalt is a very good selling trick.

Cobalt well kick the ass of Symbian and Window Mobile just wait and see!


RE: Symbian OS™ version 9
Frenchie @ 2/2/2005 3:50:41 PM # Q
haha Cobalt will not be released until 2006. In the mean time i see Symbian kicking the *** out of the Palm platform. Good PalmOne why are you so damn stubbor release a PDA with duel wireless, Cobalt, voice rec,vibrating alarm,and a charging LED.

Just to through a little salt onto the wound what if PalmOne put Cobalt onto the TE2?

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p

RE: Symbian OS™ version 9
temp_user @ 2/2/2005 4:05:54 PM # Q

2006, who claim this! Palmone will release Cobalt when their business demand it.
And palmsource is surly improving Cobalt and adding more feature to it and give a damn about Palmones release plans!

Perhaps when Palmone releases Cobalt it will be version 6.(3-x)!

Just because Cobalt is not released it doesn’t mean that symbian or winodws are ahead of the competition.


RE: Symbian OS™ version 9
rsc1000 @ 2/2/2005 5:37:00 PM # Q
Samsung will release the 1st Cobolt device.

RE: Symbian OS™ version 9
cbowers @ 2/2/2005 6:30:28 PM # Q
"Samsung will release the 1st Cobolt device."

and other great hits like, "the blue crow flies at midnight".

RE: Symbian OS™ version 9
AdamaDBrown @ 2/2/2005 9:04:38 PM # Q
Symbian and Windows ARE well ahead of Cobalt, by the simple virtue of being available. Until it shows up in a device, Cobalt is vaporware, all hype for it aside.

RE: Symbian OS™ version 9
temp_user @ 2/3/2005 5:55:36 AM # Q
"Symbian and Windows ARE well ahead of Cobalt."

I use windows, Symbian, and palm OS.
Even the MP3 player crashes to often on Symiban. Do you think I would trust the OS with advanced applications?

Window, that's nothing more than eye candy, and a worthless bundle of Microsoft in-house applications.

In case both of them were well ahead of Garnet, not to mention Cobalt, the Treo 650 would not have been so successful.


RE: Symbian OS™ version 9
ginsberg @ 2/4/2005 3:59:45 PM # Q
But Handspring/palmOne added a lot of tweaks of their own to the software that did not come from Palmsource, especially in the area of enabling one-handed operation. PalmOne did not share much of their new code for Treo with Palmsource, so the other Palm OS licensees are not competitive with the Treo.

Reply to this comment

Why I no longer have a handheld...

usa1 @ 2/2/2005 3:45:38 PM # Q
I stopped using a handheld about a year ago. Prior to that I used them back to around 1994 - well before Palm.

I used Palms for many years, but found I only really used them for calendaring and to-do management. They made poor game machine and many of the apps on them did not fit my needs. Writing on them was never fast and the biggest gripe I had was the syncing between the Palm and my Lotus Notes calendar. Changes to repeating entries were always a problem.

I used to carry both a Palm and my laptop everywhere. Now it's just my laptop. I put my next few days of calendering on a sleeve on my laptop so I can quickly glance at it. I simply don't need another device attached to my belt at work.

I think this is the case with others. Also, the fact that laptops are so darn cheap now and offer so much more functionality, there is less of a reason to go to a handheld.

That's my experience.

Mark


RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
just_little_me @ 2/2/2005 4:32:13 PM # Q
So can you "glance" at your laptop whilst standing on a train, walking down the street etc...? You must be pretty buffed from lugging a laptop around all the time I guess, so some good comes from it...


JLM.

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
Glenman @ 2/2/2005 5:25:14 PM # Q
Lugging arond a laptop, how dated. I can hold my iBook in one hand and type with the other, as I am doing as I write this. My Clie is mostly gathering dust and is primarily used as a PIM. There is just too little price diffrence between a decent wifi pda and a laptop.

Mark

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
rsc1000 @ 2/2/2005 5:38:41 PM # Q
>>There is just too little price diffrence between a decent wifi pda and a laptop.

bah - about 4-6 lbs difference!

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
madmaxmedia @ 2/2/2005 7:02:55 PM # Q
To pin this on any 1 explanation seems shortsighted. All play a role-

1. First of all, I don't think anyone can deny that the prominence and popularity of PDA's is declining. Although they are great devices for some, for many PDA's were a passing fad, along with dot-com mania and Cisco stock...

2. As long as a report clearly states what it defines as a 'handheld' or 'PDA', we can all take the numbers for what they are. However, it would be interesting to at least compare Palm's unit decline to their Treo unit sales. At least some of the missing PDA sales are due to people switching from Palm PDA's to Treo's.

3. Another poster mentioned that there was little need for most users to upgrade to new devices. I think that's true, you can keep packing more Ghz and MB into a PDA, and most people only need/want to use them as PIM's. A PDA has certain interface limitations (screen size and data input) that will always limit its functionality, no matter how fast or RAM-packed they are.

PDA's aren't dead, nor are the user communities for PDA's. However, it seems that the market for PDA's is definitely on the decline. Palm's greatest challenge (besides Symbian) will be to push smartphone buyers to its more expensive Treo models over cheaper units that may not be as smart, but can store plenty of contacts and other info.

But in some form or the other (with perhaps further downsizing in the future), I would expect Palm to continue operating for a while...The other possibility would be that their market cap(s) drops so low that they get integrated into another company, such as Symbian has largely become the possession of Nokia (assuming they buy Psion's remaining shares.) Symbian now feels less like a full-fledged OS and more like a product feature, which may happen to Palm someday (for better or for worse.)

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
Rome @ 2/2/2005 7:17:59 PM # Q
Have you tried a Treo 650 lately? It will replace 80+% of your notebook.

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
mikecane @ 2/2/2005 7:51:38 PM # Q
But the missing 20% will drive you up the frikkin wall!

RE: Why I no longer use a laptop
grahamnind @ 2/3/2005 1:34:51 AM # Q
Since getting a Palm I hardly ever use my laptop. Just goes to show we are all different.

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
dagwud @ 2/3/2005 9:44:19 AM # Q
PDA's aren't dead, nor are the user communities for PDA's. However, it seems that the market for PDA's is definitely on the decline. Palm's greatest challenge (besides Symbian) will be to push smartphone buyers to its more expensive Treo models over cheaper units that may not be as smart, but can store plenty of contacts and other info.

No, they're not dead. But similarly, the most used features are static. Calendar on my m515 isn't much different than on a TE.

I upgraded to a Vx because I "had to have it". I upgraded to an m515 becaue I had to have a color screen. For all the niceties of the Tungsten, Treo and Zire lines, I don't "have to" have any of them. In fact, while I like the idea of the Treo 650, I don't actually like using one to make phone calls.

So I still have a 4 year old PDA. And part of my is still thinks that the Vx was the last really great design for a Palm handheld.

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
joad @ 2/3/2005 12:25:20 PM # Q
...I have similar sentiments about my Treo 600 vs. the 650. Although I have "made it ok" to buy a new handheld/smartphone every year, PalmOne forced me to stick with the 600 because of the NVFS memory fiasco (only 60% of my 600's RAM-dependent data will fit into the 650). And it's a very common occurrrence with other 600 users I've spoken to. PalmOne has probably blown the chance to sell another 20-40% of their existing Treo 600 customers an upgrade because of the severely downgraded memory of the 650. Another 40% of the 650 buyers now know or will soon know that the 650 memory is a problem going from minor annoyance to major problem to workaround (including hacking the ROM just to squeeze out a little more internal memory). Is it any wonder that with decisions coming out of PalmOne lately like the "upgraded" Treo 650 they are finding people not buying their "latest and greatest"? When the innovation is stagnant or even backwards like what P1 is putting out, people will hold onto their perfectly functional old PDA and buy a Dell 4700 desktop with 512MB RAM and 17" LCD monitor for less than the price of the underpowered Treo 650... Unfortunately for PalmOne, sometimes their devices last beyond the warranty period nowadays.

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
Rome @ 2/3/2005 1:19:24 PM # Q
"PalmOne forced me to stick with the 600 because of the NVFS memory fiasco (only 60% of my 600's RAM-dependent data will fit into the 650). And it's a very common occurrrence with other 600 users I've spoken to."

It is not a problem for me and any of my Treo 650-owning friends. And I suspect it's not an issue for 95% mainstream users. Plus there are known work-arouds like zLauncher and powerrun for this issue.

"PalmOne has probably blown the chance to sell another 20-40% of their existing Treo 600 customers an upgrade because of the severely downgraded memory of the 650. Another 40% of the 650 buyers now know or will soon know that the 650 memory is a problem going from minor annoyance to major problem to workaround (including hacking the ROM just to squeeze out a little more internal memory)."

I don't know how you got these numbers; they seem very high. And hacking the ROM will not increase your RAM.

"Is it any wonder that with decisions coming out of PalmOne lately like the "upgraded" Treo 650 they are finding people not buying their "latest and greatest"? When the innovation is stagnant or even backwards like what P1 is putting out, people will hold onto their perfectly functional old PDA and buy a Dell 4700 desktop with 512MB RAM and 17" LCD monitor for less than the price of the underpowered Treo 650... Unfortunately for PalmOne, sometimes their devices last beyond the warranty period nowadays."

Innovation is more than just hardware specs. iPod is a good example.....do you define an innovative portable music player by its hard drive/storage size? And your Dell PC with 17" LCD example is simply wrong. Desktops are generally cheaper than notebooks on an apple-to-apple hardware basis by a margin of 20-40%. By your reasoning above, why would anyone want to buy a notebook PC over a desktop PC?


RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
cbowers @ 2/3/2005 4:05:43 PM # Q
"nor are the user communities for PDA's."

Dunno, our PUG folded some time back. A smaller group with less newbies meant there just wasn't much to talk about anymore.

I certainly wouldn't call it a thriving palm economy. It's even the second year in a row I have little interest in the Devcon. Sure glad I spent so much time in the Cobalt sessions last time I attended (not).

Seems to me a good number of all camps (retail buyers, seasoned users, licensees, and developers), remain uninspired.

Maybe it *is* time for Apple to take another stab at PDA's, because the PalmOS founders seem to have forgotten how to make a market.

May they find their way again (in a big hurry).

RE: Why I no longer have a handheld...
hotpaw4 @ 2/3/2005 7:00:14 PM # Q
I like my iBook. But it's almost 5 pounds, doesn't fit in my pocket; and as rugged as they are, I've already smashed the LCD display on one. So I don't carry my iBook into the grocery store with me for my shopping lists and quicken/accounting software. Whereas a handheld fits either in my pocket or on my belt, and still works in spite of being dropped multiple times. So when I get home from the grocery store, I've actually got the eggs/salsa/tea/whatever in the shopping bag.



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The Big Three all grew

AdamaDBrown @ 2/2/2005 9:53:56 PM # Q
IDC conveniently ignores, under the cover of Sony's withdrawl and a drop in 'other' sales, the fact that the major manufacturers improved sales. If you take the Treos into account, all three of the major brands had noticible sales increases over the prior year. So what's this I hear about the handheld market being dead?

RE: The Big Three all grew
svrontis @ 2/3/2005 6:46:35 AM # Q
I don't think it's right to include Dell as part of the big 'three'. Look at it this way, between them, p1 and HP had 66.7% of the market and Dell came in at only 7.6% - that's an awefully big disparity in the numbers. Note also that the 'Other' catergory had a much bigger figure. Dell may become a big player in the near future, but at present these numbers suggest that Dell don't rank as much more than a footnote in any market survey.

Also, it makes you wonder how much longer they will continue to throw good money at a market in which they are making so little headway.

Time will tell, I suppose.

RE: The Big Three all grew
mikecane @ 2/3/2005 9:36:43 AM # Q
>>>Also, it makes you wonder how much longer they will continue to throw good money at a market in which they are making so little headway.

*sigh* The same could be said of Apple, yet it continues...

RE: The Big Three all grew
cbowers @ 2/3/2005 4:13:57 PM # Q
headway and profit are two different things.

Marketshare in the PC realm is likely about the *only* number of Apple's they're not happy with.

Marketshare may be about the only number PalmSource *is* happy with on their books.

Would that Dell or Palm were "Most influential brand of the year" and runner up to Google for the previous to years, as Apple is. (See brandchannel.com or it reporting on CNN and Reuters.)

That Dell's, PalmOne's, or PalmSource's CEO's were in Time's most influential people of the 20th century's top 10 list in the Builders and Titans category, as Apple's is.

But hey, it's a brand new century, things could look up yet.

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I don't need a NEW pda, neither do most people

ThePolack @ 2/4/2005 11:42:23 AM # Q
I think the primary reason that new pda sales are slipping so much is that there is no compelling reason to upgrade. For the majority of tasks that you perform on a PDA, a three-year-old PDA works just as well as a brand new one. There are still just as many PDA users as there were before, they're just still using their old PDAs in a lot of cases.

Those people who have found a compelling reason to upgrade, tend to upgrade to PDAs with phone capability more often than not. The phone/PDA hybrids are the only new PDAs that have anything to offer over their older PDA-only counterparts.

If PalmOne (or anybody else for that matter) wants us to buy new PDAs, then they're going to have to find some feature that we don't already have and suddenly can't live without. Nothing they've released since the early days of OS 4.0 really qualifies, at least not for most people.

--------------------

In the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "I drank what?"

RE: I don't need a NEW pda, neither do most people
hotpaw4 @ 2/5/2005 2:39:28 PM # Q
Planned obsolescence. The batteries on the rechargeable PDA's tend to give out after around 2 to 3 years. Displays and cases get scratched and banged up, etc. So far, I haven't complained when replacing an old model because the new model always had something semi-useful/interesting that the old one didn't (color, hires, audio codec, bluetooth, slimmer size, etc.). Some users may be put in the situation where we NEED a replacement pda, but don't want one.


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