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Comments on: Sony Says No More Clie Handhelds

Eight months after exiting the US and European PDA markets, a Sony representative has confirmed there will be no new forthcoming Clie models in Japan. The company has effectively ended all Clie product development worldwide.
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Bad sign

Ervool @ 2/22/2005 2:28:48 PM # Q

I guess it was an already evident decision from Sony to leave the PDA market, but it reafirms the vision that PDAs are indeed in trouble as a concept and will become a niche product, smartphones being the new trend.

Regards,

Ervool

RE: Bad sign
hkklife @ 2/22/2005 2:40:53 PM # Q
PDAs will never disappear [b] entirely [/b]. That said, I forsee the next 4-5 years bringing about the ultimate reassignment for PDAs from the frontlines of personal mobile tech to the commodity, mass-market <$100 blister-packaged market that Royal, Casio BOSSes and Sharp Wizards occupied for the better part of the past decade. There will always be a need for a cheap Zire-style device for soccer moms, college kids, and salesmen to use for basic PIM functions. However, PDAs mated with keyboards, wireless connectivity, and multimedia has been a tenuous relationship at best so the low-end of the market (again, think Z31/T|E and below) is where things will ultimately settle.

Even though their made a bunch of iffy choices, Sony should ultimately be applauded for trying to invigorate the market (and succeeding to do so from '01 to '03) in the days before smartphones really rose to prominence.

RE: Bad sign
Surur @ 2/22/2005 3:05:46 PM # Q

Not PDA's. Palm OS PDA's in particular. Palm IS dying. Win CE PDA's are doing quite well, especially in Europe.

In 5 years time people will wonder how Palm lasted so many years against MS, and the remnants of Palm will (like the remnants of Be) sue in a bogus anti-trust suite.

How's this for a prediction. PalmOne bankrupt by June 2005.

Surur

RE: Bad sign
EdFrmBrighthand @ 2/22/2005 4:09:40 PM # Q
Sony did a poor job of being a handheld maker. Its initial Clie models were lame. Later, it got more serious and developed some very good models. I'm talking back in the T665C days. It was way ahead of what Palm was putting out, and prices were good.

However, Sony spooked many buyers by refreshing its line every couple of months. People were afraid to buy because they new something better was always just around the corner. Also, this meant Sony had to pour money into R&D.

Later, Sony got too aggressive with its designs... and too expensive. The NX80V was a great handheld, but there just isn't much market for $600 handhelds. And the UX50 wasn't even a good handheld, and cost what a laptop does.

And finally, Sony was a victim of in fighting. The company has been losing money, and the Clie line was cut to save costs.

All I'm trying to say is, don't read too much into this. Handhelds will survive; handheld companies that shoot themselves in the foot won't.


-----
Editor-in-Chief
Brighthand.com

RE: Bad sign
rsc1000 @ 2/22/2005 5:20:40 PM # Q
>>However, Sony spooked many buyers by refreshing its line every couple of months. People were afraid to buy because they new something better was always just around the corner. Also, this meant Sony had to pour money into R&D.

>>Later, Sony got too aggressive with its designs... and too expensive. The NX80V was a great handheld, but there just isn't much market for $600 handhelds. And the UX50 wasn't even a good handheld, and cost what a laptop does.


Bingo.

RE: Bad sign
Surur @ 2/22/2005 5:20:55 PM # Q
Who keeps deleting my very informative graphic, illustrating the downwards trend of PLMO's stock price over the last 3 months, and projecting their demise in another 3-6 months?

And why?

Surur

RE: Bad sign
Admin @ 2/22/2005 5:45:40 PM # Q
your "link" keeps coming up as gibberish
RE: Bad sign
Surur @ 2/22/2005 5:52:56 PM # Q

Hello, you just had to say so, you know.
Must be a mime type thing.

Try

http://surur.sytes.net/index.html

Surur

RE: Bad sign
drw @ 2/22/2005 7:26:37 PM # Q
A year ago we didn't know about the unsatisfactory nature of OS 6. Perhaps Sony saw a level of confusion at PSRC that they couldn't deal with.

Note for self for future "I told you so": Sony will switch to the pocketpc camp.



---
David

RE: Bad sign
Roberto_tores @ 2/22/2005 7:58:18 PM # Q
Not just Palm Os. Check out the PPC world. Toshiba, Casio pulled out HP bought Compaq thus killing the jornada. Now the only significant PPC is the Ipaq.

If you check current Ipaqs they are lackluster simmilar to last year models but now with ugly boxy bodies, unlike the 1900 series. Now they are making a Treo like PPC Phone.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/22/2005 8:11:47 PM # Q
"And the UX50 wasn't even a good handheld, and cost what a laptop does."

You’re part right. It wasn’t a good handheld, it was a great one! Have you ever OWNED a UX-50? I'm still using mine after a year and a half, and unfortunately I still don't see anything on the horizon that can replace it. It is, in my opinion, the best Palm PDA released. Go find me another palm with wi-fi, Bluetooth, a built-in usable keyboard, a Hi-Res+ screen, camera (video and still), multi-media capabilities (including voice recorder, video, & MP3), that can also be used in tablet form. Sure, it wasn’t perfect (MS, cost), but it was great.

I’m not a Sony nut (I have a huge list of things I hate about them), but they are responsible for nearly all of the substantial innovations in Palm OS handhelds: Hi-Res and Hi-Res+, color, MP3 and other multimedia playback, not to mention some form factor innovations that were somewhat successful. (Landscape is great!) What real innovations has Palm givens since Sony’s exit?


Is Ed from Brighthand REALLY this dense? Wow.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/22/2005 10:08:53 PM # Q
RE: Bad sign
EdFrmBrighthand @ 2/22/2005 4:09:40 PM

Sony did a poor job of being a handheld maker. Its initial Clie models were lame. Later, it got more serious and developed some very good models. I'm talking back in the T665C days. It was way ahead of what Palm was putting out, and prices were good.

Its initial CLIE models were lame, huh? That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted here at PIC. And considering all the verbal diarrhea spewed by Mike Cane over the years, that's saying a lot. Compare the S300 and N710 to what Palm had available when those models were released and suddenly Ed from Brighthand is revealed to be a clueless fop.

However, Sony spooked many buyers by refreshing its line every couple of months. People were afraid to buy because they new something better was always just around the corner. Also, this meant Sony had to pour money into R&D.

Of course. Far better to avoid innovation altogether like how Palm did for years. Or release "stunning" innovations like what we saw when Palm added memory to the III -> IIIx -> IIIxe etc to create its dramatic new models. Yes, spending on R + D in a new market segment is always wrong.

Later, Sony got too aggressive with its designs... and too expensive. The NX80V was a great handheld, but there just isn't much market for $600 handhelds. And the UX50 wasn't even a good handheld, and cost what a laptop does.

The UX50 wasn't even a good handheld, huh? Strange how many of the most experienced, knowledgeable Palm users in the PDA community feel the UX50 remains overall the "best" PalmOS PDA ever released. But what do power users know? By the way, a Ferrari can cost as much as a house - guess they "aren't even a good car", right Ed? Get a clue, Buddy.

And finally, Sony was a victim of in fighting. The company has been losing money, and the Clie line was cut to save costs.

All I'm trying to say is, don't read too much into this. Handhelds will survive; handheld companies that shoot themselves in the foot won't.

Sony HAS been losing a lot of money from some divisions (e.g. TVs) due to poor product planning over the past two years. Last year, some camps within Sony pushed aggressively to refocus the company and consolidate their product lines. It's understandable (but inexcusable) that with PSP coming, CLIE was felt to be expendable.

Sony pushed the envelope in PDAs (spend a few minutes reviewing all of their models and the features they were the first to introduce to the Palm platform). If Sony, the most innovative PalmOS company feels the platform is no longer worthy of investment, it seems obvious that PalmOS is dead. HandEra - the other creative PalmOS company has long since departed. Sony's announcement is the final nail in Palm's coffin. This is a sad day for ALL Palm users - not just CLIE fans. We're all about to get Netscaped in 2005.


-----
Editor-in-Chief
Brighthand.com

It's pathetic to see that an editor of a major PDA site could be so uninformed about such an important issue. You should print a retraction before Brighthand's name is damaged by your comments the way it was by the m505 screen hack.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=1951






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Long live the CLIE!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/22/2005 10:58:06 PM # Q
"And the UX50 wasn't even a good handheld, and cost what a laptop does."

You’re part right. It wasn’t a good handheld, it was a great one! Have you ever OWNED a UX-50? I'm still using mine after a year and a half, and unfortunately I still don't see anything on the horizon that can replace it. It is, in my opinion, the best Palm PDA released. Go find me another palm with wi-fi, Bluetooth, a built-in usable keyboard, a Hi-Res+ screen, camera (video and still), multi-media capabilities (including voice recorder, video, & MP3), that can also be used in tablet form. Sure, it wasn’t perfect (MS, cost), but it was great.

I’m not a Sony nut (I have a huge list of things I hate about them), but they are responsible for nearly all of the substantial innovations in Palm OS handhelds: Hi-Res and Hi-Res+, color, MP3 and other multimedia playback, not to mention some form factor innovations that were somewhat successful. (Landscape is great!) What real innovations has Palm givens since Sony’s exit?


Not to mention the amazing build quality of the CLIEs. My S300 could pass for new today even though it's five years old. My UX50 has seen the degree of abuse that would have killed a dozen Palms, yet still it works perfectly. Even Mike Cane recognizes the difference in build quality between his CLIE S320 and any Palm released in the past few years. The cutting edge CLIE features were just a bonus. QUALITY was Sony's most impressive trait and is the reason why more recent model CLIEs (UX50, TH55, VZ90) will be prized by Palm users for years to come. Just as PSION and Newton owners have made do with 5 - 10 year old hardware, I expect a cottage industry to spring up around keeping CLIEs alive. I'm glad I stocked up on CLIEs when I had the chance...






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
treo007 @ 2/22/2005 11:18:05 PM # Q
For the record, I don't agree with a lot of what Ed put forth in this thread. That having been said, does anyone, at any point in time listen the ironically named "Voice of Reason"??

Kudos to Ryan for keeping a relatively hands off approach to the forums, but this guy is a piece of work. I haven't seen one intelligent post from the Voice....ever.

I guess I should stop giving him any more pub though, huh?

RE: Bad sign
Gekko @ 2/22/2005 11:32:38 PM # Q

Voice must have just got off his shift at Circus City.



RE: Bad sign
cbowers @ 2/22/2005 11:50:00 PM # Q
"... responsible for nearly all of the substantial innovations in Palm OS handhelds..."

Don't get over exited there. Check the timeline (palmevolution.com if need be). Trg/HandEra brought as much or more to the platform as Sony (and beat Sony on a number of features.) And rather than keep things to themselves as Sony tended to, they had already been doing work for other licensees, and continued to. So much of their innovations and or code, propagated to other devices, leaving lasting impressions on the platform (even if mostly uncredited).
-Virtual graffiti
-Landscape mode
-Card slots with a FAT filesystem API - also first with dual card slots
-Playback of native .wav files from that card through a real speaker
-ROM based backup and file management
-Only PalmOS device with built in support for a wide range of expansion card devices (half dozen brands of WiFi cards, any NE2000 ethernet card, GPS, CPDP, barcode (laser, wand, CCD hand scanner, modems, and some others. I love how the review here on PIC in 2001 says "New m500 series and N710C owners are going to have to wait a while for a full range of peripherals to be available" We're still waiting... And far too many of those we do finally have only come with PalmOne or Sony stamped on them.
-Built in voice recording
-First in PalmOS for user swappable lithium rechargeable pack, and only with revert-ability to AAA's
-First high-res non-square screen.
-First PalmOS PDA outside of Japan to sport a jog dial (beat Sony and the N710C by a month)
-First to support ROM updates via card based image files (waaaay back in 1999 no less).


RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 1:18:33 AM # Q
"First non-square hires screen" I'd hardly call going from Sony's 320x320, to 320x240 an innovation. "First landscape" See above. "First jog dial outside of Japan" That still makes Sony the first. "WAV playback" I'll take Sony's MP3 playback, thank you. You're really digging here. Most of the other innovations listed aren't substantial to me. (My subjective opinion.) Handera had their share of innovations in the relatively distant past. BTW, I'm posting this message using a Sony Clie right now. Handera who?

Amen, Brother Bowers!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2005 2:02:53 AM # Q
"... responsible for nearly all of the substantial innovations in Palm OS handhelds..."

Don't get over exited there. Check the timeline (palmevolution.com if need be). Trg/HandEra brought as much or more to the platform as Sony (and beat Sony on a number of features.) And rather than keep things to themselves as Sony tended to, they had already been doing work for other licensees, and continued to. So much of their innovations and or code, propagated to other devices, leaving lasting impressions on the platform (even if mostly uncredited).
-Virtual graffiti
-Landscape mode
-Card slots with a FAT filesystem API - also first with dual card slots
-Playback of native .wav files from that card through a real speaker
-ROM based backup and file management
-Only PalmOS device with built in support for a wide range of expansion card devices (half dozen brands of WiFi cards, any NE2000 ethernet card, GPS, CPDP, barcode (laser, wand, CCD hand scanner, modems, and some others. I love how the review here on PIC in 2001 says "New m500 series and N710C owners are going to have to wait a while for a full range of peripherals to be available" We're still waiting... And far too many of those we do finally have only come with PalmOne or Sony stamped on them.
-Built in voice recording
-First in PalmOS for user swappable lithium rechargeable pack, and only with revert-ability to AAA's
-First high-res non-square screen.
-First PalmOS PDA outside of Japan to sport a jog dial (beat Sony and the N710C by a month)
-First to support ROM updates via card based image files (waaaay back in 1999 no less).

Why is it that my 1999 TRGpro shipped with a reliable backup utility, while in 2005, Palm's top-of-the-line Treo 650 and Tungsten 5 have no such built-in ability? Ridiculous.


Unlike Sonyu, TRG/HandEra was about open standards and maximizing functionality through pragmatic solutions. (How could you forget the biggest advance of all: AutoCF? FFS/AutoCF and TRG's CompactFlash slot put the TRGpro so far ahead of the competition in 1999 it was ridiculous. Going to a TRGpro from a Palm IIIx was truly a quantum leap forward.

The dual expansion, VG and screen rotation ability of the ill-fated HandEra 330 were also visionary, but by then HandEra was living on borrowed time.






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2005 3:14:03 AM # Q
Handera who?

HandEr-I-gonna-break-my-foot-off-in-your-a$$. That's who.







*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
twrock @ 2/23/2005 8:27:35 AM # Q
Oh darn, cbowers and TVoR got to phoneboy before I could.

I'd still be using my HandEra 330 if the third time I dropped it onto a concrete floor hadn't brought about its demise. (And it survived one drop into a sink of water as well.) With the "unofficial" HandEra OS4 ROM, that puppy was still sweet to use. Not recognizing the huge amount of innovation TRG/HandEra brought to the Palm market is simply ignorant.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 10:55:47 AM # Q
"I'd still be using my HandEra 330 if the third time I dropped it onto a concrete floor hadn't brought about its demise. (And it survived one drop into a sink of water as well.) With the "unofficial" HandEra OS4 ROM, that puppy was still sweet to use. Not recognizing the huge amount of innovation TRG/HandEra brought to the Palm market is simply ignorant."

Wake up and read my post again. I recognized that TRG/HandEra brought a lot of innovation to the market. My statement “HandEra who?” was referring to the fact that they exited the market long before some of the more impressive, more recent advancements came about, and therefore their most recent device doesn’t compare to Sony’s most recent device.

Also, not recognizing the huge amount of innovation Sony brought to the Palm market is simply ignorant.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 11:05:34 AM # Q
"HandEr-I-gonna-break-my-foot-off-in-your-a$$. That's who."

VOR, your first posts made sense, and had something to contribute. Now I'm starting to see why so many people here don't like you.


RE: Bad sign
cbowers @ 2/23/2005 12:49:02 PM # Q
""First non-square hires screen" I'd hardly call going from Sony's 320x320, to 320x240 an innovation."

Then you haven't considered the difficulty, and the out of the box thinking that it required to implement that in 2001 for the Palm platform. Hence why it falls below your innovation radar.
Also, you've also obviously not ever held a Handera 330. Compare the PIM apps, and you'll see that you can get almost twice as many lines of content on the large bright 330's 240x320 screen than you can on a 320x320 device.

""First landscape" See above."

Now you're not even making sense. It's something we take for granted on the likes of modern PalmOS devices with 320x480 screens. Contemplating that, and implementing it 4 years ago as an example to later PalmOne and Sony devices, *that* was innovation.

"WAV playback" I'll take Sony's MP3 playback, thank you. You're really digging here. Most of the other innovations listed aren't substantial to me.

Widen your focus man. Who cares how important a feature it was to *you*. It's about how visionary it was and challenging to design hardware around and inject code into the OS for features that we take for granted today, long before the big guys finally agreed how lame their feature sets were in comparison, and became "also have's". Especially given the likes of Sony and to a lesser degree Palm. Easy for them to bring in those features, shameful that they didn't until shown up by a smaller more innovative company.

No one gives a flip about what *you* think is a valuable feature. I merely posted those first (both significant and minor) that HandEra brought to the table (never mind the coding and hardware they brought to Palm and other licensees before and after). The point remains that most of that list is expected in a device today, at least by this readership. Reference the T5 dissention.

"Handera had their share of innovations..."
And I'm making the point that you're failing to recognize (or misapproriate to Sony) the lion share of those.

"...in the relatively distant past"
All the more shameful to PalmOne and Sony that it's taking them this long to catch up.

"BTW, I'm posting this message using a Sony Clie right now."
This is to surprise me? I and my wife, both my parents, a grandfather, and a best friend, still use Handera 330's. A device released in 2001 was *that* good. I'll be impressed with you and your Clie if you're still using it in say another 3 or 4 years.

"Handera who?"
Aren't we myopic today. This article lumps the Clie line in the same coffin. Already you can go into a best buy hear "Clie who? Sony made PalmOS devices?"

RE: Bad sign
mikecane @ 2/23/2005 12:49:31 PM # Q
>>>And considering all the verbal diarrhea spewed by Mike Cane over the years, that's saying a lot.

He just *knows* how to flatter, doesn't he?

>>>Even Mike Cane recognizes the difference in build quality between his CLIE S320 and any Palm released in the past few years.

This is true. Even with the added expense of MStick, if I could get that TE hires screen, fast CPU, and *128MB* of RAM into my S320, it'd be a great device.

BTW, my S320 is about 4 years old now. It could *not* be mistaken for new. The silver has rubbed off one side. I guess this *shows* who *really* uses their CLIE...

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 1:21:29 PM # Q
I forgot to mention, I agree with you guys that Sony not releasing their APIs was a lame thing to do.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 1:28:35 PM # Q
Cbowers, you seem to be taking this personally. I didn’t mean to offend you. Do Handeras have feelings?

If my math is right, 230x320 is lower resolution that 320x320. Being able to fit more into that smaller screen due to smaller fonts and layout is great, but not that impressive a development, regardless of the programming difficulty that went into it’s development. Maybe they did have the first landscape by changing the shape of their screen, but Sony has better landscape at 480x320. They achieved their landscape by increasing the scope of the screen rather than reducing it.

“Who cares how important a feature it was to *you*… “No one gives a flip about what *you* think is a valuable feature.”

Good question, but you’re wrong. Any company who wants to make money cares what features are important to me. There are tens of thousands of people like me. I’m the consumer with a large disposable income. I’m the consumer who used to buy a new PDA at least once a year, usually more often. I’m the consumer who was buying $400, $500, and $600+ PDA’s, not just the entry level model. I’m the consumer who, if Palm, Sony, Handera, and other companies had more of, their PDA business would be booming.

Secondly, why should my opinion be any less or more valuable than yours? Is devaluing my opinion your way of making yourself feel more important?

WAVs on a PDA were cool, but who wants that? 40 MB WAV files are too cumbersome. WAV playback isn’t important to the masses. MP3 playback is. That’s what sells devices. Selling devices is what keeps companies producing them.

I guess we’re not seeing eye to eye because you seem to value how visionary or difficult it was to develop new features. I value how useful and desirable these innovations are to mass consumers, not how visionary they are.

When I mention using my UX-50 to post, I’m not bragging about the durability of the UX-50, but it’s capability. Handeras are durable, but can a 4 year old Handera be used to post blogs using a Wi-Fi or Bluetooth connection, (not to mention a dozen other things) out of the box? That’s the point.

I have nothing against you, or Handera. Of course Handera and Sony are in the same PDA coffin. That’s the fact I’m lamenting. No myopia here. “Handera who?” means they left the market much longer ago than Sony. That’s where Sony is headed too, sadly.


RE: Bad sign
EdFrmBrighthand @ 2/23/2005 2:02:02 PM # Q
The_Voice_of_Reason wrote:

> Have you ever OWNED a UX-50? I'm still using mine after a
> year and a half, and unfortunately I still don't see
> anything on the horizon that can replace it. It is, in
> my opinion, the best Palm PDA released.

The tiny screen crippled the usability of this device, and the switch away from the Sony standard connector meant that too many accessories were unusable with it. Sony's refusal to add both portrait and landscape support meant that table mode was pretty much a waste of time.

If this is the best Palm handheld you've ever seen, you really should get out more. Both the T3 and the TH55 are superior to the UX50.



-----
Editor-in-Chief
Brighthand.com

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 2:40:50 PM # Q
Again, have you ever owned a UX-50? I owned a T3 at the same time as my UX-50, and sold it. Where’s the wi-fi? Where’s the hard keyboard? Where’s the crappy camera? ;) (VGA = crappy camera)

Bluetooth gives connectivity to plenty of accessories. A hard connection is so 20th century. I hotsync via wi-fi at home, and Bluetooth at work.

The UX isn’t perfect. A larger screen would have been nice. I thought the absence of portrait mode seemed like a negative, until I got mine and started loving landscape. I have apps that go into portrait mode, but landscape mode is more natural for human field of vision, so I never use portrait. Using the UX in tablet landscape mode is plenty comfy for my hands.

The TH55 is superior? Where’s the keyboard? Where’s the Bluetooth? You are the one who seems to be a Sony nut. How can I be the biggest Sony nut you’ve seen in years? I’ve owned 9 Palm brand PDA’s, two Sony’s, a Compaq, and an HP. (Palms include US Robotics and 3Com) I have a long list of things I hate about Sony. If I’m the biggest Sony nut you’ve met, maybe you’re the one who needs to get out more. :-P


RE: Bad sign
EdFrmBrighthand @ 2/23/2005 4:06:14 PM # Q
So phoneboy, what you're saying is you and The_Voice_of_Reason are the same person. Very interesting. I think that's something that readers of this site should be aware of.

-----
Editor-in-Chief
Brighthand.com
RE: Bad sign
EdFrmBrighthand @ 2/23/2005 4:34:11 PM # Q
I imagine some of you who are following this thread are somewhat confused. I'll try to explain.

In one of his posts to me, The_Voice_of_Reason said he wasn't a "Clie Nut." Because his responses to me were so rude, I admit I lost my temper and said he was the biggest Clie Nut I had seen in a long time. I immediately regretted this and sent an email to Ryan asking him to remove that part of my response.

phoneboy responded before Ryan had a chance to delete my comments. Much to my surprise phoneboy wrote back in such a way that it made it clear that he and The_Voice_of_Reason were the same person.

I've made it clear who I am. Can you believe anything said by a person who has to create multiple identities to support his position?
.

-----
Editor-in-Chief
Brighthand.com

RE: Bad sign
jamesgood72 @ 2/23/2005 4:54:50 PM # Q
Ed, I've admired most of your articles, but think you are off whack with the UX comments. I too find this the PDA that has the best mix of features in the whole PalmOS world. The keyboard alone can sell this device - it's possibly the only usable keyboard i've seen on the a PalmOS machine. I know own a Treo 650 too, but that keyboard is inferior to the UX's. The small screen argument is pretty much a moot point. I like a small high-density screen, and miss the 480 width on the Treo. However, I do admit it would have been much nicer for the screen to fill the case size, but you can't have everything.

How can the TH-55, and the T3 be better than the UX when they don't even have keyboards? The keyboard puts them in a different category in my eyes. I'm quite proficient at Grafiti, but the size of the emails and notes I used to write on the UX were way beyond my Grafiti abilities.

I will miss Sony's inovations, I think it's a very sad time for PalmOS. I don't think PalmOne will be gone by June however, whomever suggested that! Ever heard of the Treo? That thing is getting best gadget awards and best phone awards all over.

-James.

RE: Bad sign
Gekko @ 2/23/2005 6:20:15 PM # Q

Voice will be back later after he gets off his shift at Circus City.



RE: Bad sign
EdH @ 2/23/2005 6:42:10 PM # Q
EdFrmBrightnhand said: Sony did a poor job of being a handheld maker. Its initial Clie models were lame. Later, it got more serious and developed some very good models. I'm talking back in the T665C days. It was way ahead of what Palm was putting out, and prices were good.

Voice_of_Reason said: Its initial CLIE models were lame, huh? That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted here at PIC. And considering all the verbal diarrhea spewed by Mike Cane over the years, that's saying a lot. Compare the S300 and N710 to what Palm had available when those models were released and suddenly Ed from Brighthand is revealed to be a clueless fop.

S300 and N710 huh? Yeah, that'd be relevant if those were the initial Clie models. http://www.pencomputing.com/palm/Pen36/sonyclie.html ring any bells? Boooooorrrrrring



RE: Bad sign
cbowers @ 2/23/2005 7:02:02 PM # Q
Plonk.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 7:18:53 PM # Q
Now I feel really insulted! :)

For the record, I am NOT, repeat NOT the "voice of reason." I agree, this thread is quite confusing. Some of what was quoted from one of his postings, was actually him quoting one of my earlier postings. (You were quoting him, quoting me. Those words were mine from my first post in this thread.)

Additional proof that I'm not Mr. Circuit City: Out of the blue he said something very rude to me about somewhere unsanitary he’d like to stick his foot. Sounds like he has some personal issues he needs to deal with. Then I made fun of him by saying that I understood why he’s not well liked at this site.

Back to business: Thank you jamesgood72. I agree that the keyboard is my favorite part of the UX. I’m pretty good at Grafiti after 9 years of using it (better than any palm user I know), but entering text on the UX keyboard after just 1 1/2 years of practice is much faster that Grafiti could ever be. Also, Bluetooth and wi-fi are essential for my needs.

:)

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 7:26:42 PM # Q
Question for cbowers: (I'm not arguing, just asking you to educate me.)
You say Handera/TRG developed virtual Grafiti. Are you talking about being able to enter text by writing on the screen instead of the silkscreened Grafiti pad, or are you referring to a virtual Grafiti pad replacing the silkscreened Grafiti pad?

RE: Bad sign
EdFrmBrighthand @ 2/23/2005 7:35:52 PM # Q
> For the record, I am NOT, repeat NOT the "voice of reason."
> I agree, this thread is quite confusing.

Oh dear, you're quite correct. I went back and looked through this long, long thread and "Voice_of_Reason" was quoting you without making it clear. I'm really sorry I accused you of being him. I didn't mean to insult you.
.

-----
Editor-in-Chief
Brighthand.com

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/23/2005 8:04:59 PM # Q
I'm just glad I'm not him.:)

RE: Bad sign
LiveFaith @ 2/23/2005 11:08:26 PM # Q
Phoneboy,

I don't mean to add fuel to this fire, nor to try and dissuade you from your romance of the unique UX. Sony's "style" is just perferred by some.

But, I think hammering away at the "ignorance and stupidity" of the guy who used to successfully run this site and now runs another like it with broader appeal is a little over the top. After all, the guy has probably tested personally every handheld dating back to the Sperry-Univac or maybe the pocket abacus.

Whether he personally owned it or whether Sony sent it to him for long-term testing is of little merit. A wise man once told me that "when in the presence of someone greater than you, it's a good idea to listen because you'll probably learn something". Good, bad or ugly, Sony is history ... their not the last one standing.


Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Ed from DullHand: GET A CLUE, Buddy. Please.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2005 11:37:23 PM # Q
The_Voice_of_Reason wrote:

> Have you ever OWNED a UX-50? I'm still using mine after a
> year and a half, and unfortunately I still don't see
> anything on the horizon that can replace it. It is, in
> my opinion, the best Palm PDA released.

The tiny screen crippled the usability of this device, and the switch away from the Sony standard connector meant that too many accessories were unusable with it. Sony's refusal to add both portrait and landscape support meant that table mode was pretty much a waste of time.

If this is the best Palm handheld you've ever seen, you really should get out more. Both the T3 and the TH55 are superior to the UX50.

a) I never said those words you attributed to me.
b) Anyone with a reading comprehension greater than a first grade level can tell that I was quoting someone else. Yet somehow you were confused. Hmmmm...
c) Connectors change all the time. Deal with it. Exhibit 1: Palm.
d) Most people that actually USE a UX50 for more than the five minutes you were apparently exposed to it don't really miss portrait orientation. (Do you routinely change your PC monitor to "portrait" mode? Judging by the intelligence of your posts here, I suspect the answer may be "Yes"...)
e) The T3 has horrible quality control and is not a good replacement for ANY decent PDA. I'd rather use one of my ancient TRGpros than than that self-destructing piece of sh1t from Palm.
f) Last time I checked, the TH55 lacked a built in hardware keyboard - one of the main features that sets the UX50 above most other PDAs. Also the non-Euro TH55 lack Bluetooth, which many power users find essential.

If you actually USED PDAs rather than yapping all the time, maybe you might learn something here and stop sounding like an ignoramus. I'm shocked to see what you've written in this thread, but it's good we now know the "real" Ed. Take care, Eddy-poo.

TVoR







*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/24/2005 12:23:42 AM # Q
LiveFaith,

"But, I think hammering away at the "ignorance and stupidity" of the guy who used to successfully run this site..."

I agree with your idea. For the record, I never said anything about "ignorance" or "stupidity." You might be confusing me with someone else. I was referring to his useless personal attacks and other crassness that have nothing to do with the subject of this site. I wasn't aware of his having managed any sites. I just know him from posts here, which seem to come from person with a level of maturity that doesn’t classify him as someone deserving that much respect.

The debate on this site is great, but there is a great deal of difference between saying, “I disagree with you for the following reasons…” and “I disagree with you ‘cause you’re stupid.”


Pathetic Ed: Brighthand hangs its head in SHAME.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2005 1:05:16 AM # Q
Holy smokes! Ed, you're REALLY in need of help. And great detective work there, old pal. You've figured out my secret identity. I just wish you hadn't "outed" me as queer phoneboy before checking to see if others would be hurt by you doing this.

It's obvious that you have essentially ZERO experience using a UX50. PIC veterans may remember that when the UX50 was first released, Ryan gave it a horrible (3/5) rating. After a few posts from people here, Ryan admitted he was wrong and revised the rating. (Actually, he never admitted his mistake publicly - he just quietly changed the rating one day...) ;-O

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6162

For you to prattle on about a device you have no knowledge about is pathetic. People will hopefully now realize that they should take everything you say with a very large grain of salt. I have yet to meet a power user who's tried a UX50 for more than a week that doesn't feel it's the best PalmOS PDA ever released. No doubt, that sample size (around 20 people) must be too small to prove your assertion that "the UX50 wasn't even a good handheld". Sheesh.

Don't give up the day job, Bubba. You DO have a day job, right?

TVoR™





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/24/2005 11:08:13 AM # Q
..and V_o_R calling someone "queer" isn't designed to be hurtful?

Unbeleivable.

RE: Bad sign
mikecane @ 2/24/2005 5:40:05 PM # Q
>>>A wise man once told me that "when in the presence of someone greater than you, it's a good idea to listen because you'll probably learn something".

Did he first tell you HTF to *recognize* someone who might drill something into your thick skull? Or do you just like spouting things that reveal your native idiocy?

RE: Bad sign
Strider_mt2k @ 2/24/2005 6:56:49 PM # Q
Why is it that -everyone else- needs help according to VOR?



Looks like that dumba$$ Ed shut up pretty quick
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2005 9:57:51 PM # Q
Must have finally got tired of tasting his foot in his mouth...





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
svrontis @ 2/26/2005 2:29:31 AM # Q
... or perhaps he got fed up with being insulted just because he had the timerity to make an innocuous comment about a certain FAILED product line.

Cheer up, Ed, Brighthand is a fine website (although you flirt with the Dark Side a little too much for me). Also, thanks for your enormous contribution to PIC over the years - we haven't forgotten.

RE: Bad sign. Bad Dog. Good folks. Good Site!
Strider_mt2k @ 2/26/2005 6:54:53 AM # Q
Yes, but a dazzling failure!

I'll second that svrontis.

Ed is still cool, even tho he dabbles with that infernal devilry.
Brighthand has been and is a great resource. Always great reading over there.


RE: Bad sign
twrock @ 2/26/2005 11:10:17 AM # Q
phoneboy wrote: "Wake up and read my post again. I recognized that TRG/HandEra brought a lot of innovation to the market. My statement “HandEra who?” was referring to the fact that they exited the market long before some of the more impressive, more recent advancements came about, and therefore their most recent device doesn’t compare to Sony’s most recent device."

Sure, no problem, I did read your post again. Seems to me I didn't see anything different in this reading than the first time. Here are a few exerpts:

"I’m not a Sony nut..., but they are responsible for nearly all of the substantial innovations in Palm OS handhelds"

Oh puh-lease. The error in that statement has already been pointed out by a number of others. Your refusal to admit it doesn't change that.

"Hi-Res"

Now that VGA screens are shipping on PPC devices, are Clie 320x480 screens "low-res"? (Maybe this point is too subtle for you, no?)

"Landscape is great!"

I agree! And I was using landscape mode on my HandEra before you were on your Clie.

"Handera who?"

So you admit you never heard of them? Next time you might want to do a little more research; it tends to help one look a little less ignorant. (Yeah, I see your "disclaimer" above, but it sure didn't come across that way in your earlier post, particularly after your orginal blanket statement about who was responsible for some of those innovations you incorrectly attributed to Sony.)

"Also, not recognizing the huge amount of innovation Sony brought to the Palm market is simply ignorant."

Where in anything I wrote do you find me suggesting in any way that Sony wasn't innovative, even hugely innovative? Good try, but I simply won't accept your attempt at putting words in my mouth.

Of course HandEra's "most recent device doesn’t compare to Sony’s most recent device." And now that Sony has exited the market, the same will be true of them in a very short time. Will that negate the innovation Sony brought to the Palm world? Two years from now when someone is claiming that BrandX pda is "responsible for nearly all of the substantial innovations in Palm OS handhelds," will you not think to yourself, "Hey, Sony did that before BrandX did."? If that happens, maybe you will finally understand the point a few of us have been trying to make to you.

Or, maybe not.

More brilliant prose from Eddie-poo of Brighthand
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/26/2005 7:12:52 PM # Q
Now I remember why I don't read that site. Besides their history of PPC shilling (sponsored by Microsoft, perchance?) the writing there is generally atrocious.

Here's the latest literary work of art from my buddy, Ed:

http://www.brighthand.com/article/New_Handheld_Killer_App

The New Handheld Killer App Found at Last

A Brighthand Editorial
By Ed Hardy | Editor-in-Chief
Feb 24, 2005

"For several years, handheld sales were weak. This is because they were in need of a new killer app...

Then something came along that gets people in droves to go out and get handhelds: wireless email."


Thanks for the revelation, Ed. Did you come up with that one all by yourself? Or did Mommy help? What's the next "killer app" going to be, Ed? Color screens? Memo pad? Expansion cards? To do list? Microsoft Office-compatible apps? Datebook? A power button? How about batteries? Or is it address book?

Please tell us, O Mighty Oracle...


http://www.brighthand.com/images/ed_hardy.jpg

Where is good old Steve "Goatboy" Bush when you need him?






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Mike Cane: Please start writing/editing for Brighthand
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/26/2005 7:32:36 PM # Q
Brighthand appears to be missing an Editor-in-Chief. You should apply for the position - they seem to be rather desperate.





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
Foo Fighter @ 2/27/2005 8:13:18 AM # Q
Has anyone seen my Dog Spot? Where is that dog...Spot! Spot....here Spot! Come here boy. No no no! Stop humping Ryan's leg and leave his poor forum alone. You don't know where it's been.

Damn that dog.

Why did I just post that, you ask? It's my revenge against all of you for wasting that last 10 minutes of my life. At least I stole a few seconds of yours, which you'll never get back. Revenge is a dish best served in text form. Bwhahwahaha! :-)

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Voice Boy needs more hours at Circus City
Gekko @ 2/27/2005 12:41:35 PM # Q

Voice Boy - please ask your supervisor at Circus City to give you some more hours - you have too much time on your hands. I know you think you're great because you're king of the PDA counter, but you're really not funny and your know-it-all immaturity is really annoying. And no, working at Circus City does not qualify you as an expert on the PDA industry. And please remove your 3/4 page widescreen signature - it's tired, stupid, silly, not funny, childish, and most importantly, it's f***ing up the formatting of this forum.

Thank you.



RE: Bad sign
Strider_mt2k @ 2/27/2005 1:56:40 PM # Q
Not to mention it's threatening to become more interesting than he is.



RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/27/2005 5:37:36 PM # Q
twrock, it sounds like we agree: both Handera and Sony brought many innovations to Palm. Super!

Let me re-phrase my original statement about Sony's innovations. Sony brought most of my FAVORITE innovations to the Palm market. (i.e. 480x320 landscape is my favorite, not 320x2whatever.) Now I won't argue with you about your favorite innovations, and you hopefully won't argue about my favorites. If I'm not mistaken, the market's favoirte innovations tended toward Sony as well. That's where the $ is. (Or WAS, since we're talking about two now dead PDA makers.)

RIP

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/27/2005 5:47:14 PM # Q
Don't confuse me with VOR. I don't like it any more than you'd like me calling him, "Gekko of Reason." :)

RE: Bad sign
cbowers @ 2/28/2005 1:12:29 AM # Q
...These are some of your favorite things...
320x480 landscape mode.

-Landscape mode, done by HandEra, later picked up by Sony and Palm once they also had non-square screens (another HandEra PalmOS first). So there's a big chunk of your Favorite feature. Indeed a useful thing and yes the market agreed with HandEra eventually.
-Virtual graffiti (a non-dedicated, graphically driven, shrinkable text entry area). Brought to PalmOS by HandEra, later also by Sony, PalmOne, AlphaSmart (oops Handera wrote that too), a Symbol Prototype (oops, HandEra wrote that too), and Garmin (some HandEra help there too I hear, but not sure where), Tapwave, et al.

So there's actually 2/3rds (last third being the resolution) of your favorite feature again misattributed to Sony.

"If I'm not mistaken, the market's favoirte innovations tended toward Sony as well."

Er, no actually. The Sony high-res API was only adopted by Sony (and didn't make it into OS5). HandEra's high-res code made it into several licensees products (and remain to this this day in some like Samsung and Alphasmart - beating Sony's).

Sony's sound API also didn't make it into anything except Sony's devices, and they agreed at least at one point to move to or include the PalmSource OS5 sound API's.

And again, I point out that other current market favorite innovations like say (a card slot or two), Backup to SD/CF software, firmware updates from image files on a card, a voice recorder and dedicated record button, real speakers instead of piezo electric elements, all came to the PalmOS platform from HandEra, not Sony.

Sony merely put a pretty face, and incompatible API's on things already done by others. There real innovation was constrained to form factor and multimedia. And they only did it for themselves, without contributing directly to the platform by sharing and selling their expertise to other licensees (and/or no one wanted their code).

Now that their gone I will perhaps be a little hard but say their lasting legacy was to push Palm Inc along a little harder than HandEra could, and the $20 million they sunk into PalmSource.

And I'll heartily thank them for both, and helpfully suggest they not let the door hit them on the way out.

That's not to say we need any less licensees. By all means we need more not less. But if we're no longer good enough for Sony, that leaves more than plenty of room for any of HP, Dell, Toshiba, or Fujitsu. And I'd just as soon have them as Sony.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 2/28/2005 11:36:15 PM # Q
What I meant about the market tending towards Sony is that they always had a larger market share by percentage of total palm OS units sold, than Handera did.

In many cases, Sony took others' innovations and improved upon them (as the Japanese have often done.)

What do you think the chances are that HP, Dell, Toshiba, or Fujitsu will enter the Palm OS business? I'd like to see it happen to, but I don't think there's much chance of that. Do you?

RE: Bad sign
cbowers @ 3/1/2005 1:00:57 AM # Q
"What I meant about the market tending towards Sony is that they always had a larger market share by percentage of total palm OS units sold, than Handera did."

With due respect, that's not at all what you said. But fine. I'll simply say that no one will argue the market share. You argue however it was their features. I'm saying people who really did their research and were looking for features tended in the direction of HandEra not Sony. What Sony *DID* have, and HandEra most certainly did not have was a huge marketing budget an existing retail chain and distribution network. I would argue that was the pivotal function of their market share more than anything else.

"In many cases, Sony took others' innovations and improved upon them (as the Japanese have often done.)"

And if you'd caged your original comments with that in the beginning, we wouldn't be going back and forth on this. No argument there, other than that they also unimproved others innovations like the high-res API. Just as long as we don't gloss over their improvements and forget they didn't wholly invent the features, and rewrite history in the Clie's eulogy.

"What do you think the chances are that HP, Dell, Toshiba, or Fujitsu will enter the Palm OS business?"

Unknown. Given the history of turning them away in the past, and the history of failing to do what's best for both the consumer and the platform, I have no expectations. Especially given the marketshare trends. Exactly what many here have said would happen over the past 2-3 years, is happening. I suppose it's only a surprise to PalmOne and Palmsource.

Disheartening doesn't even begin to describe things every time I hold my Tungsten C up along the PPC's on the PDA display shelves. Now all the need is an OS...

Ref stops the fight in 1st round. The winner: cbowers, TKO
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 3/2/2005 1:05:22 AM # Q
As one of the first people to buy a TRGpro (I think mine was one of the first 300 they shipped) thank you for biotch slapping phoneboy senseless.

Funny how the best PDA company (TRG/HandEra) never received the recognition it deserved. Had Palm outsourced its PDA and OS development to HandEra in 2001-02 the platform wouldn't be in its death throes right now.

HandEra failed for a TON of reasons, but lack of retail presence was just a small factor. The Sam's Club experiment was too little, too late, but had HandEra made it to CompUSSR/Office Despot/etc, they still would have tanked much as Tapwave is doing now. PDAs sell in big numbers based on style - NOT functionality.





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
phoneboy @ 3/2/2005 12:34:25 PM # Q
Voice of Treason,

How old are you? Nobody got beat up here. I just started acknowledging our areas of agreement, and stopped answering our areas of disagreement. cbowers is not interpreting my posts as they are typed. By going into an interchange with an automatic contrarian stance, he is perceiving words differently than they are meant.

I never bashed Handera. Why are you (VOT) acting as if I did? They had the top device of their day. (The 330) They had many innovations. Sony's more recent devices were the top of their day. Sony's innovations, though resembling some of Handera's, were better, and were not directly derivative of Handera's innovations. (Sony's guarded proprietary APIs prove that.) In other words, their innovations would have come about had Handera never existed. That doesn’t reflect poorly in any way on Handera’s contributions.

Your (VOT's) simpleminded perception has converted this discussion into a case of Handera vs. Sony, which it never was. Anything I said comparing the two companies that sounded negative toward Handera was a reference to the fact that they exited the market much sooner than Sony (a point I should have originally been more clear on), and therefore their devices weren’t as advanced of capable. That is a function of timing and not one company being better than the other.


phoneboy beaten senseless. Film at 11.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 3/2/2005 5:19:48 PM # Q
phoneboy. Homeboy. Buddy. Give it a rest. Bowers biotch slapped you so hard your handlers should have thrown in the towel after his first response to you. He then proceded to savagely brutalize you in ways that children should not be allowed to see.

I'd suggest you S T F U and go home to lick your wounds rather than trying to creatively reinterpret what you had originally posted. Stick around and God only knows what Bowers might do to you next.

Bowers in the house, yo! Peace out.





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Bad sign
Akula_dude @ 3/30/2005 5:32:55 AM # Q
Whoa!

You guys sure like to offend each other!

Not stirring anything up, but you should try to get on with each other, since you obviously use the same website...

Akula

Reply to this comment

The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.

benamy @ 2/22/2005 2:27:23 PM # Q
I remember reading article after article about the head of Sony's Clie line (cannot remember his Japanese name) saying at the conferences that Cobalt was what the new CLIES would be based on.

Sony made very clear and confident indications that Cobalt was going to be used only to see the product and make the opposite decision to bail.

This is the kind of leadership that PSRC has promoted and these are the future results the PALM OS can look forward to realizing again and again whether it is Garnet 5.5, Cobalt 6.1, or mLinux.

It is not the products but the those at the TOP that are responsible for making the deals happen.

NAGEL HAS GOT TO GO!!!!

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
jkirvin @ 2/22/2005 4:06:49 PM # Q
Again, you've got this backwards. Sony didn't like the direction PalmSource was going with Cobalt, but not because they wanted to use Cobalt. They didn't like the fact that it's harder for them to customize Cobalt to work the Sony Way. Sony's Clie line is known for bearing very little resemblance to other Palm OS devices, and they were afraid that moving to Cobalt would make them look too much like everyone else.

What they missed is that Cobalt isn't an "upgrade" from Garnet. It's a crossgrade. Garnet will still be available and is the better choice for some devices. Get over this "6 must be better than 5" mentality, because it just ain't necessarily so.

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
Gekko @ 2/22/2005 4:28:50 PM # Q

yes. palm can do no wrong and nagel is a genius.



RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
drw @ 2/22/2005 7:35:08 PM # Q
> look too much like everyone else.

Dude, wake up, there ISN'T ANYONE ELSE (with shipping OS6 devices). I have money burning holes in my pockets, I'm used to upgrading once a year. NEWS FLASH... there isn't anything available to upgrade too!!!

---
David

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
InsGuy @ 2/23/2005 12:04:49 PM # Q
yes. palm can do no wrong and nagel is a genius.

I know you are speaking sarcastically, but it is that kind of thinking which has allowed P1 to survive as long as it has. Sony pulling out of the pda market using PALM OS is not some grand, behind the scenes move to make PALM OS better, they did so for the obvious reason - palms is dying, and it's products and OS are no longer the market leaders they once were. People can put whatever spin they want on this, but the bottom line is PALM OS sucks. It didn't always, but it does now in the newest form.

Oh yeah, for everyone who will say "He's just a PPC fan, ignore him", think about this: PPC didn't kill Palm, Palm killed itself with no innovation, and a continuance to force on a fiercely loyal fan base products with features that are WAY behind the offerings of their competitors.

IMHO.

All good things...

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
RhinoSteve @ 2/23/2005 2:13:48 PM # Q
You guys are falling into the classic "PC to PDA" mindset trap. Those who have been at this for a while, have learned the lessons of GRiDpad, Go, Newton, Momenta, Slate and now WinCE/PPC. What is that lesson?

** Flashy features and compatibility to a PC doesn't make PDA sales. It is simplicity and functionality that makes the trip to the bank. **

Sony tried to do their typical "one more feature and sell the most of the old stuff at a higher price" as they do to their mindless consumer electronic minions. They failed to see a new market paradigm that is evolving. This is typical of some company trying to protect a billion dollar a year revenue stream when a new idea who's time has come arrived.

Instead of changing their product development culture, they decided to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Sony execs, have fun selling Walkman's and settop boxes with pagers, cameras and cell phones built in -- that is all about you can do. As far as software, leave it up to the competant mavericks that know how to service the market right.

How your downline today Gekko? ;)

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
AdamaDBrown @ 2/23/2005 6:54:01 PM # Q
I suspect you're going to find that some people aren't nearly as disrespectful of the Newton as you are.

As for the market, how do you explain the increasing success of PPCs if people *aren't* looking for more powerful pocketable computers? For handhelds to be just organizer/calculators wastes their potential. If that were the only market, there would be no need for Palm--everything could be covered by those $20 electronic organizers they sell at Radio Shack.

The pundits have no clothes.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2005 1:27:10 AM # Q
Don't waste your time trying to debate with the incredibly "competant" [sic] BubbaSteve. He might just start bragging about his creampie, brawlin', drinkin', bangin' wife again:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7267#99831

Apple's Newton was released back when the company still was trying to stay true to its roots of creativity and was way ahead of its time. But it was also way too large and way too expensive for a PDA.





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

T minus 2 months to Cobalt launch.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2005 1:39:35 AM # Q
As for the market, how do you explain the increasing success of PPCs if people *aren't* looking for more powerful pocketable computers? For handhelds to be just organizer/calculators wastes their potential. If that were the only market, there would be no need for Palm--everything could be covered by those $20 electronic organizers they sell at Radio Shack.

I wouldn't try to read too much into those sales figures. I suspect that Microsoft is essentially buying the market with cheap (subsidized?) hardware, in addition to spreading FUD that has managed to dupe both casual users and corporate IT types into believing that PPC works better with Microsoft Office apps than does PalmOS. Sadly, Palm has been ineffectual in combating this MS FUD and the PDA War is starting to loook more and more like the Browser War circa 2001. And we all know how the Browser War turned out...






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
AdamaDBrown @ 2/24/2005 2:00:47 PM # Q
I suspect that Microsoft is essentially buying the market with cheap (subsidized?) hardware, in addition to spreading FUD that has managed to dupe both casual users and corporate IT types into believing that PPC works better with Microsoft Office apps than does PalmOS.

Microsoft doesn't have any hard involvement with the price of beans. They may talk to the OEMs now and then, but they don't control prices, and they certainly don't subsidize. And is it so impossible for people to assume that a Microsoft product works best with other Microsoft products that it has to entirely be a propaganda campaign? Yes, PPCs advertise their Office capabilities. So do Palms. It's a natural selling point. The fact that Palm/PalmOne hasn't made a point of their superior compatibility can't entirely be blamed on some evil Microsoft conspiracy.

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
RhinoSteve @ 2/24/2005 2:22:16 PM # Q
Voice, nice try to invalidate me with that harp of a URL. I still stand by it and I'm quite prowd of what I said.

As for you and your iPoo, success breeds more praise than envy. Thus, you are outnumbered.
Is Microsoft subsidizing WinCE/PPC/Mobile Windows? Yes.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2005 3:25:13 AM # Q
Microsoft doesn't have any hard involvement with the price of beans. They may talk to the OEMs now and then, but they don't control prices, and they certainly don't subsidize. And is it so impossible for people to assume that a Microsoft product works best with other Microsoft products that it has to entirely be a propaganda campaign? Yes, PPCs advertise their Office capabilities. So do Palms. It's a natural selling point. The fact that Palm/PalmOne hasn't made a point of their superior compatibility can't entirely be blamed on some evil Microsoft conspiracy.

I think you may be underestimating Microsoft. Bill Gates didn't become #1 by not being ruthless. (But yes, Palm hasn't exactly been helping its own cause these days...)

Even if PPC was losing tens of millions per quarter (they aren't), it's worth keeping the platform around for advertising and also to prevent people from experinting with ANY non-Windows platforms.






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

BubbaSteve
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2005 3:46:50 AM # Q
Voice, nice try to invalidate me...

When were you ever valid? Can't hear you, Bubba...





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
RhinoSteve @ 2/25/2005 2:41:09 PM # Q
Ok I figured this one out boys and girls ...

Voice of Reason: real life, works at a consumer electronic retail outlet and is the local "PDA guy" who tries out the store samples. He hates pants without elastic waistbands.

Gekko: real life, big time network marketing guy with local resellers and has "downlines" that sell for him. This gives him massive residual income. He hates volume breakaway agreements.

RhinoSteve: real life, IT geek that downloads lots of porn off the net and fixed the download logs so he doesn't get caught. He got an apartment only when the facilities manager told him that his futon in the equipment room was against the office lease.

So lets all start drinking and see if we can get some respect while not sober.

RE: The result of PSRC Cobalt MISlaunch.
Foo Fighter @ 2/27/2005 1:06:13 PM # Q
>> Rhinoplasty wrote: " They failed to see a new market paradigm that is evolving."

Uh...mobile devices have been around since the mid-nineties. I think we can drop the "new paradigm" moniker now, it's just a tad outdated (along with other dot com buzzwords), except for newbies like you who apparently *just discovered* what a PDA is.

Sony left the PDA market because it made no sense for them to be in this space. The market became commoditized, and they weren't making money selling extravagant electronic organizers, cutting edge as they were. Though it did make significant gains early on, Clie was ultimately a loss leader. That, combined with Sony's faltering financial health led the company to pull the plug. Cripes, I even said Sony was going to abandon the PDA market back when the PSP was first announced (and everyone here thought I was crazy for entertaining such notions). It really is a shame too because the Clie was by far the most innovative PalmOS -based product line on the market, even by today's standards.

And let's give credit where it's due; Sony saved PalmOS from annihilation. Keep in mind, Sony introduced these hi-res/multimedia capable wonders at a time when Palm was still selling basic low-res organizers for $500. Pocket PC was a wakeup call, and Sony answered. Had it not been for the Clie, Palm would have become a footnote in consumer electronics industry. Sony gave PalmOS users a reason to stay with the platform. Even Palm was ultimately forced to bite the bullet and go full featured...they they had to be pulled kicking and screaming. The original Tungsten T didn't even come with a media player built-in.

The Clie line was merely an experiment for Sony at a time when PDAs were a hot item. They jumped on the bandwagon in order to move into a new market and push their proprietary storage media. Unfortunately, times have changed. Mobile devices are no longer a relevant product category. That being the case, Sony did what I expected them to; shift focus to the PSP, which is going to become VERY MUCH like a PDA in certain aspects and is sure to become far more successful than the Clie ever was. If only they had taken a queue from Nintendo and implemented a touch screen interface. *sigh*

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Reply to this comment

Good

Timothy Rapson @ 2/22/2005 3:04:30 PM # Q
Riddance


RE: Good
RhinoSteve @ 2/22/2005 5:04:17 PM # Q
I second that. Blaming Sony's failure on the Palm OS is akin to blaming the book author when the publishing house bound the novel wrong. (Those in the book business know exactly why King and others have clauses with final say on cover and binding design in their publishing contracts.)

Sony is still way too much of a "not invented here" outfit that never really lost their over-vertical management strategy. If they just got rid of so much overhead such as their internal semiconductor group, they could have easily made their products a hundred dollars cheaper and selling well to this day.

Overall, it is Sony's internal culture that killed the Clie and not the Palm OS. Someone now can come by and make up for Sony's overpriced novelty PDAs by making something of real value without a MemoryStick slot.

Novel
Strider_mt2k @ 2/22/2005 6:31:39 PM # Q
Novel:

Of recent origin or introduction; not ancient; new; hence, out of the ordinary course; unusual; strange; surprising.

That which is new or unusual; a novelty.

News; fresh tidings.

RE: Good
svrontis @ 2/22/2005 6:49:03 PM # Q
In a way, we may never be rid of Sony's legacy. The problem is that, over the years, developers have had to use lots of code to deal with Sony's APIs and other kludges. So all of us will be running software which includes a thousands of lines redudant code, adding to the size and complexity of the program for no reason. The sooner developers go back to the drawing board and purge the redundant code the better - but I can't see this happening anytime soon.

RE: Good
JonAcheson @ 2/23/2005 10:14:59 AM # Q
True, the Clies were dogged by a couple persistent design flaws (Bad application buttons and thumboards, terrible up/down buttons), and you were stuck with MemoryStick (yuk).

OTOH, the build quality was generally high, and the devices were durable.

I have to look back on Sony and wonder about what might have been. If Sony had approached the Palm market with the aim of building an entertainment device, playing to their strengths, they could have done great things.

At any rate, losing a Sony is bad because it allows PalmOne to get even weaker and more complacent.

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."

Reply to this comment

$$$$$

Gekko @ 2/22/2005 5:18:29 PM # Q

It's all about the bucks, kids, and the rest is conversation. Shareholders demand an ROI and Sony looked at the Clie and said - "We've been in this for 4-5 years - are we making enough profit relative to our other businesses and do we see any growth of that profit for the future?" The answer was a resounding "NO!" and thus they pulled the plug. Did PSRC/Nagel's incompetence help the decision? Probably.

I would not be surpised if you someday see a new Clie with a PPC OS (just like the VAIO is based on Windows) as part of a concentric strategy of Media Edition products that revolve around Sony/MSFTs vision of Home Entertainment/Computing Convergence. (Excluding gaming of course).


RE: $$$$$
svrontis @ 2/22/2005 6:46:34 PM # Q
Agreed. And for much the same reason WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever will be axed sooner or later - even with the development budget cut back to the bone, M$ don't seem to be making any money.

RE: $$$$$
Surur @ 2/22/2005 7:01:20 PM # Q
Win Mob is just the cherry on top of win CE. It plays a few roles, one of which is to stop other embedded solutions from invading their space. They are willing to pay $60 million per year to stop Linux from invading their turf and get even more mindshare.

Additionally, it is of course an embedded OS, and widely used in vertical applications by people like Symbol. There is a need and a niche for this, and is doing quite well in that area.

Of course MS would prefer OEM's buy win Xp for $50, instead of win ce for $5, but for barcode scanners this will just not fly.

Thirdly, handheld OS's is actually a competitive market. Not Palm of course, but Symbian etc with their smartphones (where the real handheld money is currently) MS would be rather stupid to cede the field now when they are really starting to take of (looking at the XDA 2, MDA4 , XDA mini etc). Their new pending OS (Magneto) seems to be optimised for one handed use, showing again where their PDA priorities have now shifted to.

Lastly, Win Mob is actually making money for the big OEMs. I suspect HP makes more profit from a Hx4700 at $550 than from a Pavilion or Omnibook at the same price or $100 more even.

Surur

RE: $$$$$
Gekko @ 2/22/2005 7:09:35 PM # Q
>WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever will be axed sooner or later

NO! MSFT will not axe Windows Mobile. They will use it as a loss-leader if they have to - profits or not - just to own that space.



RE: $$$$$
Gekko @ 2/22/2005 7:23:04 PM # Q

Look at Internet Explorer. How much does MSFT make directly from that?


RE: $$$$$
svrontis @ 2/22/2005 7:44:24 PM # Q
Not sure if IE is a good analogy. M$ seem to think of IE as an integral part of their desktop operating systems - so just like, say, a defrag program, they think they need to have IE as part of the package they offer to their customers. Also, some people say that IE was introduced as a defensive measure - to stamp out the threat caused by Navigator and the possibilities it opened up of running programs with Java (don't know - this is just what I have read). If this is right, then M$ may have thought they needed IE to preserve their pricing power in the operating system market. Neither of these considerations apply to the WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever division.

Going off on a tangent, I hope palmone increase their marketing efforts in the east Asian markets. With Sony's departure, there are probably more than 100,000 unit sales up for grabs.

RE: $$$$$
AdamaDBrown @ 2/23/2005 1:39:23 AM # Q
I have to suspect that the Windows Mobile division at MS is probably at least breaking even. They've got roughly half the market, which if you figure in phones is roughly 7 million units per year. At $5 per license, that's $35 million dollars a year just to develop the OS and coordinate with the OEMs and component manufacturers. It may by petty cash by MS standards, but I suspect that it's enough to fund the division.

PalmOne isn't likely to press into the Japanese market. There's just not enough traction for them there. For Japan, everything is about cell phones, and the tech is so far different from anything else PalmOne does that they could never hope to catch up or make a profit.

RE: $$$$$
Gekko @ 2/23/2005 8:11:26 AM # Q

ADB - MSFT breaks out the Mobile division in their financials. Last time I checked, revenue and profitability have been solidly trending upward - yet they still operate at a slight loss - but the trend is clear - it's going in the right direction.

RE: $$$$$
twrock @ 2/23/2005 8:45:47 AM # Q
svrontis: "I hope palmone increase their marketing efforts in the east Asian markets."

You and me both. But let me share this little tidbit with you. I'm walking by the two shops in our local computer mall here in "east Asia" today that specialize in handhelds/PDA's. One has no Palm units but probably 20 different PPC's. The other has a single Tungsten T5 alongside 20 different PPC's. The "Sony only" shop still has a few Clie models alongside the laptops, etc., but otherwise there isn't another PalmOS unit to be found in the mall. Non-specialty shops have nothing but PPC's if they carry any handhelds.

At the moment, it doesn't look good for Palm in "east Asia."

I'm actually hoping for a decent PalmOS smartphone at this point. Maybe I can hold out long enough for PalmLX (Palm-on-Linux, or whatever you want to call it) to be shipped on a decent unit. Nothing wrong with hope, but I won't be buying any stock.

RE: $$$$$
svrontis @ 2/23/2005 7:18:52 PM # Q
> But let me share this little tidbit with you. I'm walking by the two shops in our local computer mall here in "east Asia" today that specialize in handhelds/PDA's. One has no Palm units but probably 20 different PPC's. The other has a single Tungsten T5 alongside 20 different PPC's. The "Sony only" shop still has a few Clie models alongside the laptops, etc., but otherwise there isn't another PalmOS unit to be found in the mall. Non-specialty shops have nothing but PPC's if they carry any handhelds.

Thanks for your contribution. It's intolerable that p1 doesn't have a better representation in those stores. Could you please give the two name of the two stores you visited?

RE: $$$$$
AdamaDBrown @ 2/23/2005 8:02:08 PM # Q
Gekko, thanks. I didn't know that MS produced seperate results for the mobile division--most companies don't.

RE: $$$$$
svrontis @ 2/24/2005 11:58:34 AM # Q
So, after more than 5 years of sinking money into the WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever division, M$ are still not breaking even (let alone turning a profit). Not good. And they are in market which is supposed to be declining (if you believe some of the latest market research stats). Not good. Throw into the mix HP's dominant bargaining power in this sector and occassional threats to jump to PalmOS, M$ must think there is little scope to increase license fees in the short term. Not good. I can just imagine how the M$ beancounters must feel about all this.

Off on another tangent - some questions: Didn't Sony invest in Palmsource stock at some stage? If so, has anyone heard anything about what Sony plans to do with their stock?

RE: $$$$$
Surur @ 2/24/2005 12:57:06 PM # Q

Again. MS could lose 4 million/year for 1000 years without batting an eye. They probably spend more on toilet paper per year. What they can not afford is lose mind share to Linux and Symbian. I dont believe the board or investors would be so shortsighted as to cut off their nose to spite their face. Further most of the PPC OEM's are making phone devices also, which is a major growth area where they previously did not have a presence. There is a demand which MS better supply, otherwise some-one else will (not palm).

Again MS (unlike Palmsource) is not going to live or die by their mobile OS, but have more to gain from staying in the field than staying out. Also the earning trend is upward, unlike PalmOne (Palmsource's only major OEM) stockchart.

http://surur.sytes.net/index.html

Surur

RE: $$$$$
AdamaDBrown @ 2/24/2005 2:02:29 PM # Q
svrontis, as often as that bit of 'conventional wisdom' about the handheld market declining is repeated, it doesn't make it true. The latest figures show growth.

RE: $$$$$
svrontis @ 2/24/2005 10:39:43 PM # Q
I don't disagree with you about the market research numbers. But let me make an observation. When the latest market stats were published, there were a lot of people posting here about how the sky was falling in on p1/palmsource. When I refer to the same statistics in the context of what it means for WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever, the reactions I got were very different. I don't wish to make any accusations of bias, but I guess I don't see much consistency here.

RE: $$$$$
twrock @ 2/26/2005 11:55:37 AM # Q
"Thanks for your contribution. It's intolerable that p1 doesn't have a better representation in those stores. Could you please give the two name of the two stores you visited?"

The mall is named "Nova." They have them in a number of the larger cities here in Taiwan. Unfortunately I neither know nor can enter the names of the particular two stores I mentioned. They are in Chinese characters, and so I don't make a point of trying to keep track of the names. I just know which stores sell which stuff.

When I bought my first PDA here (Palm IIIxe), there were slightly more PalmOS units to choose from than PPC's. Now the balance is significantly in favor of PPC's. Since I haven't ever used a PPC, I can only offer a hunch that at least in perception, PPC's work better with Chinese language. Maybe a local who has used both could verify that. Or maybe it is nothing more than aggressive marketing. In any case, something is working in favor of M$ in the Taiwanese market.

RE: $$$$$
Foo Fighter @ 2/27/2005 2:14:14 PM # Q
>> Gekko wrote: "NO! MSFT will not axe Windows Mobile. They will use it as a loss-leader if they have to - profits or not - just to own that space."

I wouldn't be so sure about that, at least not for Pocket PC anyway. Have you seen screenshots of the upcoming Pocket PC incarnation (soon to be no longer called Pocket PC) of "Magneto"? It looks JUST like the Smartphone variant of Windows Mobile. The fact that it LOOKS like WinMob Smartphone, and the fact that both types of devices are being rebranded under the combined Windows Mobile moniker leads me to believe Microsoft is planning to abandon the traditional Pocket PC platform in favor of Smartphones and devices we know today as "Pocket PC Phone edition." I'm beginning to wonder if there will even be Pocket PC devices in the future, or just a market populated with Windows Mobile Smartphones and communicators.

I can't wait to find the answer to that question when Magneto appears.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: $$$$$
Gekko @ 2/27/2005 3:12:09 PM # Q

FOO - the line is blurring between pda/smartphones. when i said "windows mobile" i'm talking about all PPC OS incarnations that PSRC competes with. my point is that MSFT will never give up on the "MOBILE" OS market - and by mobile I mean any mobile device. where is the link to pics of "Magneto"? I'd love to see it.



RE: $$$$$
Foo Fighter @ 2/27/2005 8:32:33 PM # Q
Pocket PC Thoughts posted them a month or so ago. Unfortunately I think they were removed at the request of MS. I still have a couple on my hard drive...I think. Anyway, as I said, the Pocket PC version looks pretty much like the Smartphone flavor, or to be more precise, a blending of the two. The lines between PDA and Smartphone are more than just blurring, PDAs are moving to cellular devices.

Looking at the screenshots and the fact that Microsoft is dropping the "Pocket PC" moniker combing both products into one "Windows Mobile" brand kind of makes you wonder if we aren't unknowing waiting for the other shoe to drop this year. Perhaps by the end of this year there won't be a "Pocket PC" handheld on the market? Time will tell.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Reply to this comment

I'm a Clie owner. I'm sorry to see 'em go. Hey hey, my my.

Strider_mt2k @ 2/22/2005 5:35:01 PM # Q
Sorry if I'm not sporting Sony's poor sales figures, or graphical doom charts, or even dragging anyone's personal life through the muck.

I'm just a geeky Clie PEG-TH55 owner who really likes it, and is sorry to see Sony getting out of the PalmOS handheld game.

The UX, TH, and VZ series are arguably the most evolved PalmOS 5x PDA ever produced, and represent the end of a small but interesting time...okay an ERA for "Palms" as we know/knew them.

Okay, Memory sticks suck, and Sony's proprietary hoo haas (Ha Ha! (-nelson)) drove us nuts, but people, they were the tops when it came to pushing the envelope. Ferraris in a Tarus world.

The worst part for us Clie owners will be settling for what's out there when we finally part with our beloved machines.

The best part is that it's better to burn out than it is to rust.

-A jar of Naval Jelly for my T5 toting buds at the end of the bar.


RE: I'm a Clie owner. I'm sorry to see 'em go. Hey hey, my m
abosco @ 2/22/2005 7:07:08 PM # Q
>>The worst part for us Clie owners will be settling for what's out there when we finally part with our beloved machines.

Go to ebay and stock up now. I'm hoping my NX80v will last for many more years. I just don't see anything replacing it, especially now that it can do landscape.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637

RE: I'm a Clie owner. I'm sorry to see 'em go. Hey hey, my my.
Token User @ 2/23/2005 8:51:08 AM # Q
My NX70V is just about the perfect PDA (for me).
CF driver, Wifi (via card) - it does just about everythingI need it to do.

Sony should have concentrated on a couple of solid product releases, instead of their insane "innovation/upgrade" schedule. Sure, the fanbois upgraded devices every time a new one came out, but business users (the ones that have the $$$ to plonk down) demand a solid device, and look to one that isn't going to be obsolete in 6 months time. My NX70V is hardly obsolete - but many people are of the mndset that they wont buy the current model, if the new one with more features is just around the corner.

With the way things are going at Palm (both divisions), I think my next device will actually be a CrackBerry 71xx series Smartphone. It will be a sad day, having moved from Palm Pro to Visor to Clie, but I see no hope in the immediate future for Palm and their OS licensees. Only saving grace is the Treo 600/650 ...

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: I'm a Clie owner. I'm sorry to see 'em go. Hey hey, my m
cbowers @ 2/23/2005 1:22:03 PM # Q
Nicely summed, Token User.

FEED ME!
A9700rO @ 2/23/2005 9:55:44 PM # Q
-_- Get over your selves people. They said they've brought the Clie to it's end, they DIDN'T Say they were DONE with handhelds. Sony's way too smart to be hearded to its grave like a sheep by that accursed Nagel, they jumped the ship, and will probably land to the next best OS as soon as they see fit. I'm not trying to be the stick in the mud here...well maybe I am, but still Palm Os is dying, and the smart guys are jumping off to else where. Nagel bled PalmOne dry, and I'm afraid the power user is going to starve here.

NX(Despite the CF issue),UX series appeased the power user, the Tungsten | T5 disgusted them all. Just glare at what the T5 is offering and let's say the Axim X50v is offering, not only is it logical to consider X50v over the T5, it's probably the RIGHT choice too.
Seriously, who wants some c r u d d y a$$ device cloaked in the frail plastic? If you're one of those people who wont let it go...get some duct tape, you're going to be needing it when the cheap A$$ plastic case gets those beautiful cracks.


Farther more, offering ONLY 416Mhz of speed when there happened to be some Intel XScale processors at 624Mhz?
Keep this up and Palm won't see the sunrise of 2006.

T5 Vs Axim X50v, the T5 gets s c r a p p e d in ALL the fields but Os... PalmOne, the Zire 72 was showing Palm was getting their act together, but hey, maybe the 72 was just the cover of the book after all.

Clie-SJ22>>Tungsten | E >>> Clie-NX60>>Zire 72

Reply to this comment

Will The Voice now be The Shutup?

mikecane @ 2/22/2005 7:07:46 PM # Q
Now that Sony has FINALLY EXPLICITLY STATED that the CLIE is DEAD DEAD DEAD and ain't nohow noway nowhere coming back, can this mean that Voice will **** with his rah-rah-sis-boom-bah CLIE cheerleading?

No?

Didn't think so...

RE: Will The Voice now be The Shutup?
mikecane @ 2/22/2005 7:09:31 PM # Q
Ryan, give us a break with that bot! S-T-F-U should not be starred out!

RE: Will The Voice now be The Shutup?
Gekko @ 2/22/2005 7:33:18 PM # Q

It's all MikeCon's fault. He's never upgraded from that Y2K Clie he was using - and deprived Sony of PROFITS!

RE: Will The Voice now be The Shutup?
RhinoSteve @ 2/23/2005 7:14:01 PM # Q
Man, I just lost all respect for you. Ok, I'll buy laundry detergent and shower water purifiers from you to help your downline.

Reply to this comment

My Favorite Quote Again

Gekko @ 2/22/2005 7:59:43 PM # Q

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3



RE: My Favorite Quote Again
LiveFaith @ 2/23/2005 11:58:19 AM # Q
Interesting quote. But, Sony CLIEs never led any market that I know of.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: My Favorite Quote Again
mikecane @ 2/23/2005 12:55:24 PM # Q
Oh yeah? If we're playing The Quote Game again:

Starting epidemics requires concentrating resources on a few key areas. Connectors, Mavens, and Salesmen are responsible for starting word-of-mouth epidemics, which means. . .your resources ought to be solely concentrated on those three groups. No one else matters. -- Malcolm Gladwell [DoCoMo - Japan's Wireless Tsunami: How One Mobile Telecom Created a New Market and Became a Global Force - John Beck & Mitchell Wade; pg. 34]

-- and palmOne suitboyz, if you actually *read* that book, the following excerpt does NOT apply to p1 vs WinMob:

We must believe in luck. For how else can we explain the success of those we don't like? -- Jean Cocteau [DoCoMo - Japan's Wireless Tsunami: How One Mobile Telecom Created a New Market and Became a Global Force - John Beck & Mitchell Wade; pg. 103]

RE: My Favorite Quote Again
Gekko @ 2/23/2005 3:50:46 PM # Q

The Market Leader in question was PALM OS.

RE: My Favorite Quote Again
LiveFaith @ 2/23/2005 4:52:44 PM # Q
C'mon Gekko. At least give em' another 6 months. :-o

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
Reply to this comment

Kutaragi gains face with an about-face

mikecane @ 2/23/2005 8:58:37 PM # Q
Sony Repairs Defective PSP Square Button (News)
http://tinyurl.com/7x4ox

RE: Kutaragi gains face with an about-face
Gekko @ 2/23/2005 9:04:13 PM # Q

Con - this is not big news. You love this Kutaragi, don't you?



RE: Kutaragi gains face with an about-face
mikecane @ 2/23/2005 9:09:19 PM # Q
So should *you* Mr Big Money. PlayStation *saved* that company. It is a huge piece of their *real* profits.

I hope Sony *buries* MS in the game market. Die, XboX, die!!

Cane: What is this - Kutaragiinfocenter?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2005 2:04:52 AM # Q
Give your Kutaragi fetish a rest, Old Man. At least the hackbod fetish was funny for a while because you didn't... know... about DK. This Kutaragi obsession is just downright creepy.

The proper term for your wild swings in the Love/Hate fantasy relationship you're having with Kutaragi-san is "splitting". So, Borderline* Boy: does "cutting" make you feel better? Or is it just a "cry for help"?


*Only a few people here at PIC will understand this. But those of us who've been dragged in at 3 a.m. Sunday to see a "cutter" are free to roll their eyes. Repeatedly.

;-O







*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Kutaragi gains face with an about-face
mikecane @ 2/24/2005 5:30:52 PM # Q
Oh shut up and put your CLIE up on ebay so you can buy its successor from KUTARAGI -- the PSP!

RE: Kutaragi to biotch-slap Stalker Cane
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/26/2005 7:37:01 PM # Q
Oh shut up and put your CLIE up on ebay so you can buy its successor from KUTARAGI -- the PSP!

I actually have disposeable income, so - unlike you - I don't have to mingle with your trailer trash kin on eBay whenever I'm going to buy anything. Hopefully, your newspaper stand will do better this year and eventually you'll be able to save up the $200 you'll need for a PSP.

And keep up with the brownnosing, Cane. (I assume you're just smearing whatever comes out of your gaping mouth onto your nose in order to achieve the correct shade of brown?) No doubt Kutaragi's handlers/bodyguards all have your picture and have been given carte blanche by the stalker law to shoot you dead on site.

Take care, Caney. Give my love to Mistress Hackborn.

TVoR





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Kutaragi to biotch-slap Stalker Cane. Repeatedly.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/26/2005 8:01:55 PM # Q
And also to shoot you dead on sight.

;-O

TVoR





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: Kutaragi gains face with an about-face
twrock @ 2/27/2005 3:30:25 AM # Q
"Give your Kutaragi fetish a rest, Old Man. At least the hackbod fetish was funny for a while because you didn't... know... about DK. This Kutaragi obsession is just downright creepy."

Granted, it does seem Mike is a little obsessed with Kutaragi, but TVor, what about your fixation with iPoo?!!! ;-)

RE: Kutaragi gains face with an about-face
mikecane @ 2/28/2005 11:50:25 AM # Q
You mean Voice's fixation on *me*. Makes my innocent mentions and praise of Kutaragi look like nothing compared to how many times Voice addresses/mentions/insults/tries to curry pathetic notice from/with/by me.

Hey, tomorrow is March. Is palmOne going to release anything to save us from ourselves? We need some fresh blood...

Reply to this comment

UX50

hyperdaz @ 2/24/2005 6:30:39 AM # Q
I was wondering whats so special about the sony UX50?????
I have t3... bought it just before xmas and its improvement in software over t1 but I dont think in hardware as its cheaper quality etc..

But I saw that the UX50 is on one time offer for £180.00 and was wondering if I should purchase just for fun toy etc.. also has wifi and keyboard so im sure i could find some use for it....

but what advantage does it have over t3... ??

RE: UX50
Rhauer @ 2/24/2005 11:20:24 AM # Q
Wifi and keyboard.

If P1 came out with something like this w/Cobalt I'd be very interested. Passing on T5, waiting patiently for what's next.

T3, T1, Clie 760, Clie 710, Vx, V, IIIx

RE: Sony CLIE UX50 vs. Palm Tungsten T3
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/26/2005 8:03:45 PM # Q
UX50:
- clamshell (no case needed)
- premium quality construction (should easily give 3 - 5 years of solid, reliable service)
- rugged
- built-in Bluetooth + Wi-Fi
- Data Import/Export apps (like Softick's Card Export II)
- slick industrial design (expect to answer a lot of questions about it if you use it in public)
- keyboard (allows even novice Palm users to write faster after a few minutes of practice than many people can write after years of using Graffiti)
- camera/video recorder

But - smaller screen, tiny stylus (almost irrelevant, since keyboard obviates using Graffiti), abandonware (stock up on accessories NOW before the prices go through the roof), Memory Stick (more expensive than SD), short battery life (3 hours), slick industrial design (expect to answer a lot of questions about it if you use it in public), weak alarms (speaker on back of unit), flaky IR beaming to other PDAs, requires add-on software to rotate screen to portrait.

T3:
- sightly smaller (without a case)
- bigger screen
- nicer stylus

But - digitizer drift problems, made in China construction problems, abandonware (in terms of expansion connector), short battery life (3 hours), no Wi-Fi, bigger (with most cases), no camera (almost irrelevant, since PDA cameras are all still of horrible quality).

Bottom line: UX50 appeals to more sophisticated + knowledgeable PDA users, while T3 is currently the best model that pa1mOne sells. Neither is perfect and they both require compromises. If you like the T3, a far better tablet-style PDA is the TH55. I can let you know where to buy a new TH55 if you're interested and if there are any left once I've completed my order next week.







*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: UX50
mikecane @ 2/28/2005 11:54:15 AM # Q
>>>expect to answer a lot of questions about it if you use it in public

But even more important are the questions that go unasked to you:

"Who's that jerk with that tiny typewriter trying to get us to notice him?"

"Isn't that the retard who told me to buy this &^%$#ing PPC at Beast Buy?"

"I think they caught the wrong guy. Doesn't *HE* look like he could be that BTK psychopath?"

RE: UX50
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 3/2/2005 1:28:35 AM # Q
You... are... funny...





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Reply to this comment

Does anyone care?

ray00pal @ 3/15/2005 6:10:14 AM # Q
Sony sucks anyway. Sony is a done story.

SOny brand will die like Zenith and RCA. Yes, you will still see products bear these type of brand but no body really cares.

Withdraw from PDA, withdraw from Mp3 player, and withdraw from plasma TV. What a joke!

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