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Comments on: Jeff Hawkins Forms New Neuroscience Company

Computer industry veterans Jeff Hawkins and Donna Dubinsky (founders of Palm Computing and Handspring) today announced they are forming a new company named Numenta. Numenta (which stems from "mentis," the Latin word for "mind") will develop technology derived from Hawkins' research in neuroscience and brain theory.
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Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck

Gekko @ 3/24/2005 5:35:47 PM # Q

This prick hasn't done a lick of real work at P1 in many years. He's too busy with his hobbies. I bet the prick rarely even shows up at the office. He's sucked enough money out of the company. Shareholders and Customers say - Do some real work or get the f**k off the payroll. Granted, he was the pioneer - but what have you done for me lately? Hawkins fiddles while Palm burns.

http://palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7477



RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
e_tellurian @ 3/24/2005 6:28:42 PM # Q
:-(lol)

It's a no win. When you choose to innovate to share wealth people provide the address to the local mental ward. When you do succeed at creating innovative wealth you’re told you do not deserve any.

Eh what if a bunch of crazy people got together to offer all PDAs more to do? Would that help his research?

That's life choices and consequences.

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Gekko @ 3/24/2005 6:51:15 PM # Q

E-T - go check yourself in -

http://www.vch.ca/community/mental_health.htm



RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
e_tellurian @ 3/24/2005 7:24:24 PM # Q
:-(lol)

Do they allow "clowns"?

Perhaps with more time i'll wear out my neurons and will have to pay for the service of our healthcare system. While waiting for that day i thoughts i'd try to create some people driven value so those that do not have the choice to pay can have the same quality of care.

How will e-t interact with the healthcare system(s) in the future? Some think by sharing wealth of knowledge (taxes) and offering more choices to plastic cards.

Peace,

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
needleye @ 3/24/2005 10:25:47 PM # Q
E-T
What r u talking about are u on to something or on something.
RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
e_tellurian @ 3/24/2005 11:24:33 PM # Q
:-(lol)

If you search the Internet you may find some answers.

No, drugs not my choice.

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
svrontis @ 3/25/2005 2:40:32 AM # Q
Gekko, if you feel so strongly about this issue, why don't you buy some p1 stock and raise the issue at the next Annual General Meeting? As a stockholder, your views may carry some weight with the directors.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Gekko @ 3/25/2005 9:11:32 AM # Q

Now more than ever, Palm needs a CTO who is TOTALLY FOCUSED on PALM'S products and success. You can bet that Bill Gates and Michael Dell are focused soley on the success of MSFT and DELL. I think this guy Hawkins just doesn't care that much anymore about Palm. He did his thing, made his money, and now he's gone on to other things - which is fine - God bless! But LEAVE THE COMPANY then! Let a CTO come in who is FOCUSED AND ENERGIZED on Palm and not hobbies/other companies.

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
relyons @ 3/25/2005 9:54:40 AM # Q
svrontis said, "Gekko, if you feel so strongly about this issue, why don't you buy some p1 stock and raise the issue at the next Annual General Meeting? As a stockholder, your views may carry some weight with the directors."

svrontis, ixnay encouragingway Ekkogay otay uybay AlmOnepay ockstay.

PalmOne stock is 26.60 per share from Friday's profit taking low of just under 22.

PalmOne is doing great without Gekko!

Gekko's "direction" would wreck PalmOne.

Eric

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
MikeInDM @ 3/25/2005 11:47:37 AM # Q
Gekko, I would bet you are wrong. Consider Microsoft. Bill Gates has the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation that he runs, as well as his involvement in other charitable endeavors.

I doubt that he sleeps, breathes and eats Microsoft all the time.

Your assumption that anyone is a position like this is solely focused on work with no other distractions in life is quite naive. (Or simply bate for an arguemnt.. never sure which with you).

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
svrontis @ 3/25/2005 3:13:13 PM # Q
> He did his thing, made his money, and now he's gone on to other thing - which is fine - God bless!

Yes, and let's not forget that he buried Goliaths like Phillips, Casio, Toshiba and Sony (in the palmpilot market, that is). God Bless!

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
e_tellurian @ 3/26/2005 3:20:27 PM # Q
An interactive industry may offer more choices for the hobbyist and those with debts.

If the goal is to create a machine that can innovate that's a choice. People still have to agree to use the innovation. There are also people that have some thoughts that need/want more people, until the machine is made to help think of ways to give digital choices more too.

The greatest risk in life is asking people what they want. Why? Well, perhaps for fear the idea will be stolen before build by people who thought of the idea in the first place. With advanced technology the choice exists to share the wealth of knowledge with the creator(s) too.

What is the difference between "Oh that's all I can build that" and "what do you think?" or "How do you see the future of e-com?" Or "Is a PDA a virtual wallet or is some new engineering need/wanted"?

Just some thoughts that have value in an advanced economyies of choices.

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: Hawkins is stealing his P1 Paycheck
Take1 @ 3/28/2005 2:36:54 AM # Q
My guess is that Palm One HAD to pick up Donna and Jeff and give then 'honorary' positions with huge payola/stock optings to get their hands on the only thing that would save Palm One's bacon... the Treo.

Jeff is a figurehead simply living off the fat of a once great tech company.



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This will DWARF Palm

mikecane @ 3/24/2005 6:38:20 PM # Q
It's this that he will be remembered for in the history books. Palm will be a mere footnote in a career that will be remembered for *this*.

EVERYONE is going to beat a path to his door. Not just industry -- but *entertainment* too.

Wish I had $$$ in it!

RE: This will DWARF Palm
e_tellurian @ 3/24/2005 7:37:24 PM # Q
Any thoughts in it?

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: This will DWARF Palm
Doc Logic @ 3/25/2005 12:13:59 AM # Q
Mike is 100% correct. This is bigger than Palm. Hawkins' formulation (as described in On Intelligence) is very convincing. He even presents an appendix with verifiable predictions in it. Whether his implementation will pan out, whether his timing is off (too early), is hard to say, but Numenta is one to watch.
RE: This will DWARF Palm
Gekko @ 3/25/2005 9:17:05 AM # Q

Don't believe the hype.

The next "Big Thing" is rarely what you and everyone else thinks it will be.



RE: This will DWARF Palm
mikecane @ 3/25/2005 11:20:01 AM # Q
Gekko: I don't have to listen to any damned hype to know that Hawkins is onto The Biggest Thing Ever. You'll be slitting your wrists in a few years when you can't snag some of the IPO.

RE: This will DWARF Palm
mikecane @ 3/25/2005 11:21:18 AM # Q
And Gekko, as someone who Worships at the Altar of Ca$h, you should get up to speed. I recommend (once again!):

http://www.thomasbass.com/work2.htm
http://www.thomasbass.com/work1.htm
http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/5/4/reviews/parunak.html

Geez, Gekko, apparently you have no idea how program trading works! Wall Street has already beaten a path to his door, I'm sure.

RE: This will DWARF Palm
RhinoSteve @ 3/25/2005 12:42:15 PM # Q
Gekko,

You are right there. Palm caught on by storm in the marketplace with out any big PR at all since they couldn't afford the publicity. Frankly, this is going to die of the founders past success and thinking they are the best. Sigh. It was nice working with you Jeff!

Steve

Reply to this comment

From practical to the secular sacrifical

RhinoSteve @ 3/24/2005 8:49:07 PM # Q
With his reputation, we may have the first billion-dollar artificial-intelligence turkey here.

While Jeff is calling this "putting brain theory into practice" what we have here my friends is yet another redressing of the Artifical Intelligence market.

However this time, instead of software, he is going to try to pitch non-Von Neuman hardware sans AI languages running on traditional CPUs.

This road has lots and lots of failures based on the false axiom that the mind is a piece of hardware that is exclusively part of the material world.

Thinking and postulating is a counter-entropic event that belongs under the jursidictions of religions and not science. A thought process creates order from disorder -- this totally goes against Entropy within a physical universe. You want to imitate thought and behavior, drop the old Niche, Freud and other "mind is matter" crowd and look into the spiritual world.

My prediction -- you heard it here! -- is this will be good for lots of pop-science articles and a lot of disseration work and maybe a few big ticket sales. However, it won't come to much in the long run.

Expect a slow, slow burn-out on this one. I for one am avoiding anything with this start-up's name connected to it. So long Jeff, it has been nice knowing you. The rest of up will get work done and sell products.

In a way this reminds me of Dave Packard's embrace of the Nazi Master Race theories in the winter of his career -- another psychatric pipe dream!

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
e_tellurian @ 3/24/2005 9:45:17 PM # Q
No one has a reputation worth a dime until they produce. To sell something you need either people that steal ideas or people that innovate.

Some choose not to work with outlaws. Innovation takes many people willing to risk their thoughts and reputations. In an advanced economy the source of thoughts is important if we want to avoid the stigma of an outlaw. One thought is not an idea the accumulation of many thoughts is an idea. In advanced economies we can choose to build a prototype to offer more clarity.

Nice to read of people taking risk with their own money after sharing much wealth with others.

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
needleye @ 3/24/2005 10:28:55 PM # Q
E-T
U R ON SOMETHING
P.S Must be good cause u r way out there...............
RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
e_tellurian @ 3/24/2005 11:21:42 PM # Q
:-(lol)

Almost 20 years "out there" and drug free too.

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
RhinoSteve @ 3/25/2005 12:39:44 PM # Q
ET got caught with the socialist bug long ago and still hasn't been cured of it.

Thinking Machines, Inc.
Carnegie Group
Neuron Data

soon added to this list ...

Numenta

Sigh!

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
mikecane @ 3/25/2005 4:11:25 PM # Q
>>>Thinking and postulating is a counter-entropic event that belongs under the jursidictions of religions and not science.

GIVE US A BREAK! We are supposed to swallow such twaddle from YOU? You and Gekko make a great team. HE believes that God gave us Dubya, and YOU apparently believe that we are God's Puppets.

Spare me, you imbeciles!

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
svrontis @ 3/25/2005 4:15:08 PM # Q
If they can get computerised pattern recognition to work, this could have important military uses.

For instance, one of the biggest problems faced in the Gulf War was locating mobile Scud launchers. Based on published sources, satellite telemetry didn't prove to be very useful, largely because took a long time to process the data - by the time that targetting information was available, it was too late - the b@st@rd$ had moved the Scud launcher to some other place. If the data analysis process can be computerised, so that data for say thousands of square klicks of terrain can be dealt with in a few seconds, interdiction in 'real time' may become feasible.

I have no idea whether computerised pattern recognition can be made to work and, based on what RhinoSteve says, there seems to be good reason to doubt that it will ever work. However, I'm sure our people in the Pentagon will be very interested in this sort of technology - and, let's face it, they are not shy when it comes to throwing taxpayers' money into R&D.

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
RhinoSteve @ 3/25/2005 7:09:05 PM # Q
>>Thinking and postulating is a counter-entropic event that
>>belongs under the jursidictions of religions and not science.

>GIVE US A BREAK! We are supposed to swallow such twaddle from YOU?
>You and Gekko make a great team. HE believes that God gave us
>Dubya, and YOU apparently believe that we are God's Puppets.
>
>Spare me, you imbeciles!

The only break you will get is by acknowleding your Maker. Billions have ben waisted and millions killed in concentration camps by those that refused follow a higher power. I have history on my side here and I say this with no apology.

And on the military applications of this, yes it ia massive ... if it works. Target recognition has been a big research subject for decades and in fact was THE problem that spawned the AI research fad.


RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
mikecane @ 3/26/2005 1:27:25 PM # Q
Your argument is against Free Will. If we don't have free will, then Eve was a puppet and we are all sinless.

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
e_tellurian @ 3/26/2005 3:03:46 PM # Q
We already know perfection is a quest not achievable it is a purpose.

Man created sin. Why? So we can stigmatize innocence people.

The son i think of died for all our sins. The past, present and future is to learn from too.

Choices and consequences. In the end it all comes down to $.

$ is not wrong as long as we do not take the "A" out of agreed.

In the real world outside this box not all value democratic capitalism. In advanced democratic economies we can share the value of thoughts with the creators too so they are not crucified for doing good.

Happy Easter.

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
RhinoSteve @ 3/28/2005 3:31:19 PM # Q
Mike, if you want to go that way. Then yes, I am arguing against absolute free will.

What you are advocating is a Nichean postulate where ultimately, you are never responsible for any of your actions. That mindset has inductively shown to not work with all of the fascist governments set up since the start of the Industrial Revolution. Physical Science Laws have limited jurisdictions to that of the physical universe. Trying to make any material object "think" is an attempt to overextend the limited jurisdiction of physical science.

Thus, any AI endeavor that doesn't take spiritual elements into consideration is bound to fail. Reading Jeff's book, he makes no tribute to spiritual elements that make the primary elements of thought and behavior, thus he theory is flawed. If he is starting a company based on this, it too will fail if it sticks by its fundamentals.

My guess is they are going to be purists to Jeff's theories 'til the VCs scream for results. Then they will scramble find something else, slap their name on it and claim it as their own.

The hard truth is that many hard core techies and academic types refuse to accept is there is a middle ground of spiritual guidance and free will. Since they themselves do no have any faith in spiritual elements that go beyond the physical universe.

RE: From practical to the secular sacrifical
Calroth @ 3/28/2005 6:59:47 PM # Q
In my view, anybody who brings religion to this debate automatically loses it. Think of it as Godwin's Law for AI.
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What effect will this have on the clipboard limit?

LiveFaith @ 3/25/2005 10:46:27 AM # Q
Will this affect the clipboard limitation on the next PalmOne handhelds?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: What effect will this have on the clipboard limit?
mikecane @ 3/25/2005 4:13:45 PM # Q
You will be hearing from my attorney shortly, with the bill from the ER. I busted my gut over that one!

RE: What effect will this have on the clipboard limit?
RhinoSteve @ 3/25/2005 7:12:46 PM # Q
Word!
Reply to this comment

Oh boy! An AI comeback!

SeldomVisitor @ 3/25/2005 1:00:05 PM # Q
Some of the most enjoyable times of my life were going to AI conferences around the country (http://www.aaai.org/)! Gosh - great fun! Seattle was particularly fantastic - bright blue skies, green grass, and a food demo on the "needle" grounds where the conference was going on! Don't remember the conference but the food was great (hmmm...in fact, don't remember ANY of the conferences!)! Even worked at a major AI research center and got a graduate degree in an AI field! Recently went to one of the web sites that talk about such things and find - ==20== years later - that the SAME unsolved problems are Hot Topics in AI!

Yeehaa!

What goes around, comes around!

So...like...uh...why didn't Hawkins hack graduate school at Stanford (AI University incarnate)?

and...two YEARS til the Next Great Thing outta him at PalmOne?

RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
RhinoSteve @ 3/25/2005 2:55:55 PM # Q
That comment is rich in sarcasm. Very well said! Sounds like the early SigGraph before the Hollywood types took over the show.
RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
mikecane @ 3/25/2005 4:15:07 PM # Q
Yeah, imagine all those *professionals* from Hollywood spoiling SIGGRAPH like that. Ruined all the fun you engineers had printing out what YOU considered "art" -- ASCII porn!

RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback! Way-OT now
SeldomVisitor @ 3/25/2005 4:36:10 PM # Q
In the deep distant past AS that graduate student I was responsible for some early UNIX boxes and software to go with them. One of the projects I very successfully completed was the interface to a Printronix lineprinter that allowed images to be printed out in 16 shades of gray in such a manner that the discrete image points would meld into one another with no overt patterns created across points (pixels) due to the "dithering" necessary to make graylevels...

ASCII images, indeed!

Fun stuff - have I mentioned the LISP interpreter written for Macro11 that had to be translated into UNIX Assembly language? My first C program...

Giggle.

How about...ah...forget it!

RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
mikecane @ 3/25/2005 5:08:20 PM # Q
ASCII art -- I was thinking back to the files once available on CompuServe in the pre-WWW days (or daze, as the case may be!).

Hey, what would, say, a Pixar need with a SIGGRAPH today? I recently saw part of "the Incredibles." My God! HAIR!

RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
RhinoSteve @ 3/25/2005 7:13:43 PM # Q
Yes, Pixar hired a lot from SigGraph to make The Incredables and other movies like that. Wait 'til you see Cars! Renderman is an awesome app that leases out at a monthly rate more than most of central Manhatten apartments.

What I'm talking about is how the Hollywood ones ruined the playful exploratory spirit of SigGraph where new ideas flourished. Go to SigGraph now, it is just another passive-agressive trade show on the Hollywood rotation of getting a film made. That is what ruined it for me.

There is always a new frontier ... if it is worth exploring is another question.

RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
mikecane @ 3/26/2005 1:30:02 PM # Q
Hmmmm... Gekko, have you figured out who RhinoSteve is yet? Look at the clues he's been dropping!

Now Jobs, about the Mini II... hah!

RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
DevPOV @ 3/28/2005 1:10:17 PM # Q
Datastick

RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
tompi @ 3/28/2005 1:52:24 PM # Q
AI has made steady progress over the last 20 years, and many AI problems have been solved and their solutions have become staples of system and application software (to the point that people don't even recognize anymore that that stuff was developed by AI researchers).

Of course, many of the big problems still remain, but it's wrong to say that "the same" problems are still open.

RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
RhinoSteve @ 3/28/2005 3:53:06 PM # Q
I agree some problems are classic extensions of closed loop, inductive control systems that go all the way to back to pre-digital systems. All you need is to read the Bell Labs archives.

However, many AI start-ups naturally try to bite off more they can chew. I see this happening to Numenta. The next few years are going to be very quite and humbling in my opinion.
RE: Oh boy! An AI comeback!
RhinoSteve @ 3/28/2005 9:05:51 PM # Q
Strike One!
Strike Two!
Reply to this comment

This is Brilliant

Mauibro @ 3/25/2005 5:57:37 PM # Q
I knew that with one of the worlds top minds Hawkins would come up with a something great that would forever change the future.
And who better to "life" the artificial "intelligence than one of the most intelleigent people of our time!!!!!
I'm so exci......wait a minute

This is "Jeff" Hawkins? The PalmPilot dude?

I thought is was "Stephen" Hawkins, nevermind. :)

RE: This is Brilliant
RhinoSteve @ 3/25/2005 7:17:44 PM # Q
I think you have been reading Jeff's PR too much and actually believing all of it.
Reply to this comment

not science

tompi @ 3/28/2005 12:24:39 PM # Q
Founding a company is not the way to establish scientific results; science requires experiments, publications, and reproducibility. So far, all Hawkins seems to have delivered is a bunch of vague ideas in a non-peer reviewed format. If the guy weren't worth a lot of money, nobody would be paying any attention.

RE: not science
RhinoSteve @ 3/28/2005 3:55:57 PM # Q
Word!
RE: not science
mikecane @ 3/28/2005 4:01:09 PM # Q
Man, imagine that FRAUD, Thomas Edison! He should have gone through the peer review process before coming up with those worthless inventions. Let's see... improvements to the stock ticker, improvements to the telegraph, some stupid thing called the phonograph, and, oh yeah, the very thing that created Hollywood: the moving filmed picture! Imagine that unschooled eejit thinking he should just start a COMPANY and make some actual MONEY!

>passing out the Dunce Caps<

RE: not science
RhinoSteve @ 3/28/2005 4:21:02 PM # Q
Mike, that is a good one. Then there is Henry Ford. Industailists have their place. But due to the nature of business and how their sheer will and influence drove their innovation, they do tend to follow along Facist lines at times.

Very very few induatrailists have moved from business leader to elected offical of democratic states.

This Numenta start-up is everything but a sure bet.
RE: not science
mikecane @ 3/28/2005 4:26:41 PM # Q
And the reverse is also true: Show me the politician who's gone on to create/lead an industry?

I'm sure Hawkins has sunk some of his own p1 jillions into this. He's stated up fron that he doesn't have *all* the answers, but believes he has a new twist and direction. His track record is better than others!

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