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Comments on: Rumor: Windows Mobile Treo 670 Spotted?

In a week thats been filled with rumors comes another one out of the UK this time. Apparently a new Treo running Windows Mobile was briefly shown by an unnamed high up Orange executive.
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What's to hide.

LiveFaith @ 4/7/2005 4:25:56 PM # Q
Why didn't the guy ever show the obvious picture of the "670" running WinMob with the backlight on? Did he ever?

Devices look real, but I never believed that "some lady tried to sell me 2 of em', so I tooks pix with my camera" story.

Unfortunately for Palm fanboys, P1 will probably sell a boatload of these if they have at least 64mb. Will they be Dell "badge engineered" or not?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Windows Treo = the coup de grace for PalmSource
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2005 10:56:17 PM # Q
After blowing hundreds of millions of $$$ with unwanted inventory, the useless overpriced acquisitions, the incompetent "leaders", the absurd "split" into the two Palms, the Cobalt bęte noir, the China MobileSoft Hail Mary... after all that, in the end Palm gets fatally stabbed in the back by... PALM!

Un-freakin-believable.





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Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: What's to hide.
I.M Anonymous @ 4/11/2005 1:17:23 AM # Q
Hey, Voice of Reason, would you mind trimming down your signature a bit? 22 lines is a little excessive, don't you think?

RE: What's to hide.
DonCarcharo @ 4/11/2005 2:47:42 PM # Q
[b]Hey, Voice of Reason, would you mind trimming down your signature a bit? 22 lines is a little excessive, don't you think?[/b]

Never mind the fact that its not even remotely funny and appears in 4 out of every 5 threads.

RE: What's to hide.
DonCarcharo @ 4/11/2005 2:55:49 PM # Q
You know what else isn't funny? My futile attempt to use BB code in a post.

/Secretly wishes he had a 47 line signature with the word "poo" in it.

RE: What's to hide.
AdamaDBrown @ 4/11/2005 9:33:53 PM # Q
If I recall correctly, the PIC comments system recognizes HTML for basic functions like bold, underlined, and italic text.

Reply to this comment

Other Links

skccs @ 4/7/2005 4:46:56 PM # Q
Look also here:

http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3736.html

HTC seems to be to nr1 producer of pocket-pc phones (QTEK, SPV uso.)

Look at that 1 April Joke too:

http://mytreo.net/news/archives/000434.php#more

Christian Stocker

RE: Other Links
ray00pal @ 4/12/2005 1:18:02 AM # Q
Note that it is a T-Mobile. That means bad coverage so thanks.
RE: Other Links
Surur @ 4/15/2005 2:32:01 PM # Q


Reply to this comment

Orange Windows Treo

GrahamBM @ 4/7/2005 6:49:58 PM # Q
I think the best English term for this would be "Bollocks!"

:))

Reply to this comment

The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.

legodude522 @ 4/7/2005 6:59:04 PM # Q
Oh, God no! Its suicide for Palm OS.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
vesther @ 4/7/2005 7:47:50 PM # Q
It's time that we start writing palmOne up for breaking their allegiance to the Palm OS System. Obviously, the Treo 670 probably violates all provisions of the Palm OS Licensing Agreement.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002
RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
jkirvin @ 4/7/2005 10:04:24 PM # Q
Anyone care to explain how this is bad for Palm OS? I'm curious.

Also, if I were a PalmOne stockholder (and I should be: call broker), I'd be royally pissed if they *didn't* offer a WM Treo. This is exactly what they should be doing.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
Kesh @ 4/7/2005 11:32:49 PM # Q
Keep in mind that palmOne is no longer married to the PalmOS. They're free to pick whatever OS they want for their hardware, including WinMob. It could potentially hurt PalmSource (the owners of PalmOS), but palmOne would probably *benefit* from having a WinMob Treo.

I'm a bit cautious about it, myself.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
jkirvin @ 4/7/2005 11:35:21 PM # Q
This won't cut at all into Palm OS market share. It might take a chunk out of RIM, though.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Agenda?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2005 1:31:41 AM # Q
Anyone care to explain how this is bad for Palm OS? I'm curious.

This won't cut at all into Palm OS market share. It might take a chunk out of RIM, though.

Wow. You don't see how having the best smartphone design now being available with PPC will hurt PalmOS marketshare? Are you on crack?

How many companies that previously would have ordered PalmOS Treos will now order "Windows" Treos so the IT department can reassure everyone that the entire system is finally "all-Windows, all the time"? So much for the Treo being a way to leverage PalmOS as a business solution.

Sprint and pa1mOne have a can't-miss hit here (I had heard it was to be called the Treo 700 - guess this got changed), but this move will damage PalmOS more than anything PPC could ever have done on its own.

This isn't rocket science, Kirvin. Comments like this from you show how completely out of touch you are with reality. Even Mike Cane understands that a PPC Treo hurts PalmOS. You must be the only one who thinks this won't damage the platform. Or is Palm paying you to post crap like that? Hmmmm... As I said before, you have ZERO credibility here now.






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 4:04:11 AM # Q
VoR is correct--IT departments love to standardize on Windows for networking and support reasons, amongst many others.

Besides that, there's a second reason it would be bad for Palm OS. Confidence in PalmSource is at an all time low. The Cobalt debacle, the sudden switch to pushing Linux, their refusal to answer straight questions, and PalmOne's reluctance to charge forward with PSRC's newest toys, all contribute to uncertainty and a lack of confidence, and PSRC isn't fixing it. Developers don't know what platform to code for, licensees are bailing, and users are dropping Palm for Windows. PalmOne is the last licensee of any impact in the market outside east Asia, and they've been singlehandedly carrying PalmSource since Sony pulled back to Japan. If PalmOne started offering Windows based models, it would be seen as an admission that even they don't believe there's a future in the Palm OS.

Actually, this *would* be good for PalmOne. They would open up a large new market segment, and I'm willing to bet that the 670 would have considerably better hardware, such as WiFi and 64 MB. They would sell tons of them. It wouldn't be good for PalmSource, but then again, PalmSource hasn't really done a whole lot to help lately.

Selling PalmOS - or not
SeldomVisitor @ 4/8/2005 6:40:48 AM # Q
Perhaps it is not understod by some PalmInfoCenter readers that PalmOne is not just a significant customer for PalmSource (the folks bringing PalmOS to The World), but essentially is the only customer for PalmSource (50+% of revenue? I forget - it's in their financial docs).

If PalmOne "Goes Microsoft" then PalmSource goes under.

Pretty much guaranteed.

I'd say that's a pretty good reason why this is "bad for Palm OS".

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
palmato @ 4/8/2005 10:37:11 AM # Q
>VoR is correct--IT departments love to standardize on Windows for
> networking and support reasons, amongst many others.

Such as getting latest viruses, troyans, worms, etc. (too many to list).
Hey, you dont' want to be left out of the loop!

More seriuosly that's one of the biggest problems with IT departments. In the prehistoric times, they used to say that nobody would be fired for choosing IBM. Well today it's microwsoft.
If IT managers are fired for choosing MS, maybe at the end of the day we will get better products.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 1:27:10 PM # Q
True, but they still do it. When it comes to PocketPCs, it's mostly because of networking--VPNs, SMB, and WiFi--and portability of code between desktop and mobile, for custom apps used by the company. There's also a view that it makes support easier since it's all Windows, but that doesn't really wash because it's still a different interface from a desktop.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
jkirvin @ 4/8/2005 2:05:50 PM # Q
Wow...

First off, nice reach, VoR. I call you out and this is the best you can come up with? Oy.

Maybe y'all haven't figured it out yet, but RIM's been outselling the ENTIRE IPAQ LINE in units sold. RIM is the 800 pound gorilla in the handheld space right now. That's what IT departments are buying, not Treos. The Treo is a successful smartphone, but most of the purchases are in the "prosumer" market, bought by the actual user even if the company pays for the service. The "fleet" purchases are Blackberries, and a Treo running Magneto tied to an Exchange server supporting push email could be a Blackberry-killing system.

Those sales are A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MARKET than the prosumers that buy Palm OS Treos and use them with POP or IMAP email. Therefore, the Windows Mobile Treo sales won't cut noticeably into the Palm OS Treo sales. Different products, different customers, different markets.

As for P1 offering a WM device hurting Palm OS, I doubt it. You guys are myopic, you can't see this from a "normal" person's perspective. Most consumers don't care enough to notice, and for those that do, this could actually help Palm OS's image. Many of the consumers I've talked to still think of Palm OS as a simple organizer OS while they see WM as a small PC. By showing that Palm OS and WM can actually run on the same hardware, it might prove that Palm OS is more powerful than people think.

I donbt think PalmSource cares either way; I wouldn't if I were them. The average consumer has never HEARD of Cobalt and doesn't care, so that doesn't hurt them. And when you get down to it, in a few more years Palm OS as WE know it will be a very small part of their business. Cell phones are where the money is, and PalmSource could probably exit the PDA market entirely without losing much. Sad for us, but true. Wingnuts here at PIC make the great mistake of believing that PDAs matter. Maybe they do to us, but not to the world at large, not to Microsoft, and not to PalmSource.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
Token User @ 4/8/2005 2:46:02 PM # Q
jkirvin - well said. Every coroporate meeting I go to asks about Blacberry integration ... why? Because it is a corporate device, that allows constatn contact with the enterprise. Would people be happier with a Treo? Maybe, maybe not. Most Blackberries are not used as converged telephony devices, but as wireless data devices.

How much faith can you put in a comment VoR? He's a guy whose signature "line" is five times longer than his posts - and filled with as much crap as the rest of his post.


~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
jkirvin @ 4/8/2005 3:22:50 PM # Q
Seldom Visitor sez...

"If PalmOne "Goes Microsoft" then PalmSource goes under.

Pretty much guaranteed."

Actually, no. That would have been true before the CMS merger, maybe. But not anymore. PalmSource will make far, far more money from cell phone sales than they ever made in handhelds. And you know what? They don't even have to sell them in America. We could never see a regular cell phone running a PalmSource platform and they'd still be fine. Lots and lots of sales in China. The China market is HUGE.

The game has changed, guys. Catch up.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 5:32:28 PM # Q
The 'game' has not changed. Where are these miraculous cell phones? Where are the sales? They bought one small company in the Chinese cell phone software market. A worldwide revolution that does not make. Hype and PR fluff aside, PalmSource is still totally dependant on PalmOne for their revenue.

And, even if they did somehow manage to sustain themselves from cell phone sales in China in the event that PalmOne switched, what's the point? The Palm OS itself would be dead as a platform. There wouldn't be any significant players left making Palm OS handhelds. I don't think PalmOne is going to switch entirely, but if they did, it *would* be lights out for Palm OS.

RIM's recent sales spurt has been impressive, but there's no guarantee that they can sustain it in the long term, particularly in the face of advancing technology from traditional handhelds. Really, the only thing that RIM has had going for them is true push email.

And the 'prosumer' market isn't buying all those Treos. There are plenty of enterprise orders because, push email aside, the Treos make a good mobile email device, and they make a much better phone than most of the Blackberries. With a Blackberry, a lot of companies would have to equip their workers with a cell phone too. Not a problem you have with a Treo.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
Gekko @ 4/8/2005 6:09:18 PM # Q

Adama - don't you know that almost all new Blackberr's are PHONES TOO!!!!!!!!!



RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
jkirvin @ 4/8/2005 6:16:02 PM # Q
Adama sez...

"And, even if [PalmSource] did somehow manage to sustain themselves from cell phone sales in China in the event that PalmOne switched, what's the point? The Palm OS itself would be dead as a platform. There wouldn't be any significant players left making Palm OS handhelds. I don't think PalmOne is going to switch entirely, but if they did, it *would* be lights out for Palm OS."

First off, PalmOne isn't "switching" to Windows Mobile, they're adding it as an option. Just like Garmin and Samsung sell both Palm OS and Windows Mobile handhelds. You're thrown by the idea that "Palm" would be using Windows Mobile, but that misses the point. PalmOne is just another licensee, now, no more important, really, than any other. That they offer handhelds in both flavors is no more significant than Samsung and Garmin doing the same.

Secondly, so what if it was "lights out" for Palm OS handhelds? Handhelds as we know them are a dying breed. What we think of as a PDA only has two or three more years left anyway. They will be replaced by feature phones, smartphones, media players, tablets, UPCs, laptops and probably some form factors that we haven't yet seen. Mobile tech is a moving target, an evolving platform.

"RIM's recent sales spurt has been impressive, but there's no guarantee that they can sustain it in the long term, particularly in the face of advancing technology from traditional handhelds. Really, the only thing that RIM has had going for them is true push email."

RIM has such a commanding lead in the enterprise market that they'll hold strong for years yet. The only thing that could have brought them down was the patent issue, which seems to be moot at this point. No one but us here on PIC gives a flyin' rat's ass about "traditional handhelds" anymore.

"And the 'prosumer' market isn't buying all those Treos. There are plenty of enterprise orders because, push email aside, the Treos make a good mobile email device, and they make a much better phone than most of the Blackberries. With a Blackberry, a lot of companies would have to equip their workers with a cell phone too. Not a problem you have with a Treo."

I agree with you, I'd much rather have a Treo than a Blackberry. But that's not the reality of the market. Blackberries have much better name recognition with execs and they have more support in the IT department because of their largely plug and play push email solution. Microsoft might cut into this with the new WM and Exchange, but it's an uphill fight. The Blackberry is a horrible PIM and not a very good phone, but that doesn't seem to matter to those buying them in record numbers.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 6:26:58 PM # Q
Yes, I do know that Blackberries are also phones. But aside from models like the 7100, which doesn't have a full QWERTY keyboard, most of them aren't something you would want to slap against your face. The Treo is superior in that regard.

Jeff, I'm not 'thrown' by anything. I'm talking about a hypothetical in which PalmOne switched to Windows for most or all of its product line. I said, very clearly, that I don't think they will.

Yet more hype. No, handhelds aren't dying. As a matter of fact, sales went up last year, and smartphones aren't growing at anywhere close to the rate people claim they are. At the moment, even the most successful smartphone company, PalmOne, sells two handhelds for every Treo. There's also been a rise in connected handhelds, like the iPaq 'mobile messengers' and other HTC phone designs, but these are--shock of shocks--still handhelds.

Smartphones are a bubble, just like internet stocks, like Bluetooth, and a dozen other things. They have been hyped all out of proportion, and sooner or later they'll collapse. Then, when the hype has cleared, we'll see if there's a valid long-term place for them. And for the record, I heard that 'handhelds only have two or three years left' line three years ago, too.

RIM is in a sales spike, saturating their market because they don't have competition for push email. Once the competition arrives, I suspect that RIM will see a significant drop in sales, as well as the effects of their current sales spike. Somebody that you already sold a Blackberry to doesn't need another one.

I think you underestimate the power of that which is trendy. Treos are being bought by companies not because of IT, but in large part because managers and executives want them. They mostly don't need push email, and they don't want a poor PIM machine like a Blackberry. These are the people who are driving the enterprise sales of the Treos and the XDA lines: the higher-ups who want something more stylish and can instruct the IT department to buy 5,000 of them. They're being deployed to workers too, but I can't count the number of stories I've heard from people about how their company's higher-ups all got Treos.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
jkirvin @ 4/8/2005 6:55:25 PM # Q
I guess we'll have to wait and see how this plays out in a year or two.

BTW, thank you, Adama. This has been a reasoned, thoughful discussion and a wonderful change of pace from the usual barking around here.

Raving on your Palm™
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2005 9:59:04 PM # Q
Wow...

First off, nice reach, VoR. I call you out and this is the best you can come up with? Oy.

Maybe y'all haven't figured it out yet, but RIM's been outselling the ENTIRE IPAQ LINE in units sold. RIM is the 800 pound gorilla in the handheld space right now. That's what IT departments are buying, not Treos. The Treo is a successful smartphone, but most of the purchases are in the "prosumer" market, bought by the actual user even if the company pays for the service. The "fleet" purchases are Blackberries, and a Treo running Magneto tied to an Exchange server supporting push email could be a Blackberry-killing system.

Those sales are A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MARKET than the prosumers that buy Palm OS Treos and use them with POP or IMAP email. Therefore, the Windows Mobile Treo sales won't cut noticeably into the Palm OS Treo sales. Different products, different customers, different markets.

As for P1 offering a WM device hurting Palm OS, I doubt it. You guys are myopic, you can't see this from a "normal" person's perspective. Most consumers don't care enough to notice, and for those that do, this could actually help Palm OS's image. Many of the consumers I've talked to still think of Palm OS as a simple organizer OS while they see WM as a small PC. By showing that Palm OS and WM can actually run on the same hardware, it might prove that Palm OS is more powerful than people think.

I donbt think PalmSource cares either way; I wouldn't if I were them. The average consumer has never HEARD of Cobalt and doesn't care, so that doesn't hurt them. And when you get down to it, in a few more years Palm OS as WE know it will be a very small part of their business. Cell phones are where the money is, and PalmSource could probably exit the PDA market entirely without losing much. Sad for us, but true. Wingnuts here at PIC make the great mistake of believing that PDAs matter. Maybe they do to us, but not to the world at large, not to Microsoft, and not to PalmSource.

Kirvin, you're getting ridiculous. Do you even THINK before you type?

RIM is doing well because - like Palm before them - they were the first company to sell a device that successfully integrated the hardware and software to satisfy customers in a new niche. If the lost their lawsuit it could have been game over for RIM. Immediately. In 2002, Palm failed miserably to become what RIM is now to enterprise customers: a reliable "push" email device. Microsoft is not run by idiots and I expect they will soon start to use their own Exchange Server as a way to quickly leverage Windows Mobile Blackberry-Killers. IT will love to use "all Microsoft" solutions as soon as they're available. Don't think so? Try explaining to the typical IT type why PalmOS PDAs actually work BETTER with Microsoft Office than Microsoft's own PPC models.

I believe the bulk of Treo 600 sales are to corporate customers. The types who buy 100 - 1000 phones at a time. This is who Palm needs to market the Treo to. Individual sales to end users just increases support costs and creates a lot more headaches than corporate sales do. Sorry, Kirvin, but the lines between Blackberry/Treo/Windows smartphone don't exist. A wireless connected device is a wireless connected device these days and they all have plagiarized each other's features. (Didn't take long for the Treo 600 keyboard to get ripped off, did it?)

So you think PalmSource losing sales to Microsoft might actually HELP PalmSource's image??? Wow. You really are insane. Your "logic" seems to be the product of a diseased mind. Read your post again. Hilarious.

Let's see: the ink is barely dry on the China MobileSoft deal and suddenly you have this Asian saviour (a tiny startup company, by the way!) obviating the need for PalmSource to sell anything outside China??? Wow. Were you drunk again when you posted this nonsense?





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Raving on your Palm™
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2005 10:34:03 PM # Q
Wow...

First off, nice reach, VoR. I call you out and this is the best you can come up with? Oy.

Maybe y'all haven't figured it out yet, but RIM's been outselling the ENTIRE IPAQ LINE in units sold. RIM is the 800 pound gorilla in the handheld space right now. That's what IT departments are buying, not Treos. The Treo is a successful smartphone, but most of the purchases are in the "prosumer" market, bought by the actual user even if the company pays for the service. The "fleet" purchases are Blackberries, and a Treo running Magneto tied to an Exchange server supporting push email could be a Blackberry-killing system.

Those sales are A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MARKET than the prosumers that buy Palm OS Treos and use them with POP or IMAP email. Therefore, the Windows Mobile Treo sales won't cut noticeably into the Palm OS Treo sales. Different products, different customers, different markets.

As for P1 offering a WM device hurting Palm OS, I doubt it. You guys are myopic, you can't see this from a "normal" person's perspective. Most consumers don't care enough to notice, and for those that do, this could actually help Palm OS's image. Many of the consumers I've talked to still think of Palm OS as a simple organizer OS while they see WM as a small PC. By showing that Palm OS and WM can actually run on the same hardware, it might prove that Palm OS is more powerful than people think.

I donbt think PalmSource cares either way; I wouldn't if I were them. The average consumer has never HEARD of Cobalt and doesn't care, so that doesn't hurt them. And when you get down to it, in a few more years Palm OS as WE know it will be a very small part of their business. Cell phones are where the money is, and PalmSource could probably exit the PDA market entirely without losing much. Sad for us, but true. Wingnuts here at PIC make the great mistake of believing that PDAs matter. Maybe they do to us, but not to the world at large, not to Microsoft, and not to PalmSource.

Kirvin, you're getting ridiculous. Do you even THINK before you type?

RIM is doing well because - like Palm before them - they were the first company to sell a device that successfully integrated the hardware and software to satisfy customers in a new niche. If the lost their lawsuit it could have been game over for RIM. Immediately. In 2002, Palm failed miserably to become what RIM is now to enterprise customers: a reliable "push" email device. Microsoft is not run by idiots and I expect they will soon start to use their own Exchange Server as a way to quickly leverage Windows Mobile Blackberry-Killers. IT will love to use "all Microsoft" solutions as soon as they're available. Don't think so? Try explaining to the typical IT type why PalmOS PDAs actually work BETTER with Microsoft Office than Microsoft's own PPC models.

I believe the bulk of Treo 600 sales are to corporate customers. The types who buy 100 - 1000 phones at a time. This is who Palm needs to market the Treo to. Individual sales to end users just increases support costs and creates a lot more headaches than corporate sales do. Sorry, Kirvin, but the lines between Blackberry/Treo/Windows smartphone don't exist. A wireless connected device is a wireless connected device these days and they all have plagiarized each other's features. (Didn't take long for the Treo 600 keyboard to get ripped off, did it?)

So you think PalmSource losing sales to Microsoft might actually HELP PalmSource's image??? Wow. You really are insane. Your "logic" seems to be the product of a diseased mind. Read your post again. Hilarious.

Let's see: the ink is barely dry on the China MobileSoft deal and suddenly you have this Asian saviour (a tiny startup company, by the way!) obviating the need for PalmSource to sell anything outside China??? Wow. Were you drunk again when you posted this nonsense?







*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/8/2005 11:14:12 PM # Q
The 'game' has not changed. Where are these miraculous cell phones? Where are the sales? They bought one small company in the Chinese cell phone software market. A worldwide revolution that does not make. Hype and PR fluff aside, PalmSource is still totally dependant on PalmOne for their revenue.

And, even if they did somehow manage to sustain themselves from cell phone sales in China in the event that PalmOne switched, what's the point? The Palm OS itself would be dead as a platform. There wouldn't be any significant players left making Palm OS handhelds. I don't think PalmOne is going to switch entirely, but if they did, it *would* be lights out for Palm OS.

RIM's recent sales spurt has been impressive, but there's no guarantee that they can sustain it in the long term, particularly in the face of advancing technology from traditional handhelds. Really, the only thing that RIM has had going for them is true push email.

And the 'prosumer' market isn't buying all those Treos. There are plenty of enterprise orders because, push email aside, the Treos make a good mobile email device, and they make a much better phone than most of the Blackberries.

ADB: Well said. Unfortunately, Kirvin will keep denying the truth and will then try in vain to marginalize you with his feeble "wingnut" label.


Have you heard the rumor on how long it will take to bring PalmLinux to market? Not pretty™. Current projections are that PalmSource would not last long enough as an independent company for them to be able to release PalmLinux.





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
jkirvin @ 4/9/2005 3:33:36 PM # Q
VoR ranted...

"Kirvin, you're getting ridiculous. Do you even THINK before you type?"

Quite a bit, yes. Thinking, I might add, that companies are willing to pay for. Where's your bona fides? For that matter, why are you too gutless to use your real name?

"RIM is doing well because - like Palm before them - they were the first company to sell a device that successfully integrated the hardware and software to satisfy customers in a new niche. If the lost their lawsuit it could have been game over for RIM. Immediately."

And yet that didn't happen. See, that's the difference between reality and your tiny little head.

"I believe the bulk of Treo 600 sales are to corporate customers."

You're free to believe whatever you want, but you're still wrong. The vast bulk of Treo sales are individual "prosumer" purchases. Again, sticking to the facts will make you look like less of a tool.

"So you think PalmSource losing sales to Microsoft might actually HELP PalmSource's image??? Wow. You really are insane. Your "logic" seems to be the product of a diseased mind. Read your post again. Hilarious."

No, I think the Treo offered with Windows Mobile will help Palm OS's image. I see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, so let me try to make this simpler:

Many consumers see Palm OS devices as nothing more than simple organizers, "digital address books."

Many consumers see Pocket PCs as literally small PCs.

Proving that Palm OS can run on the same device as Windows Mobile will prove that the two platforms are similar in terms of capability.

The group of customers that want WM Treos and the group of customers that want Palm OS Treos will likely have very little overlap.

The small overlap between WM Treo customers and Palm OS Treo customers mean that there are few to no "lost sales" for PalmSource.

Now, VoR, let me help. What part of the above do you not understand?

"The ink is barely dry on the China MobileSoft deal and suddenly you have this Asian saviour (a tiny startup company, by the way!) obviating the need for PalmSource to sell anything outside China?"

Not necessarily, but it's not unlikely. Are you aware of the fact that there are more Chinese cell phone users than there are Americans, period? That the Chinese cell market adds 5,000,000 new customers every month? Of course you didn't know this. If you did, you wouldn't have acted foolish in public.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
mikecane @ 4/9/2005 4:50:55 PM # Q
>>>If you did, you wouldn't have acted foolish in public.

Are you kidding? He does nothing BUT. Hence the lame screen name that tries to prop up his whorehouse-sheet-laundering self.

Imagine this guy with some woman dumb enough to show an interest in him -- and him acting in person as he does here.

Blistermouth: Look at all my posts on PIC. I'm really a PDA expert!

Woman (not able to finish *one* post): You know, I've REALLY got to get the hell out of your life.

TVoR: 6, Kirvin: 0
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2005 5:55:45 PM # Q
VoR said calmly...

"Kirvin, you're getting ridiculous. Do you even THINK before you type?"

Quite a bit, yes. Thinking, I might add, that companies are willing to pay for. Where's your bona fides? For that matter, why are you too gutless to use your real name?

If that was you "thinking", well I feel sorry for you. No sensible company would hire you since you obviously are clueless. (Are you still begging for a job at Palm, or did they actually already hire you to be a non-official Spin Doctor/Misinformation Manager? I don't need to post my credentials - my posts stand up for themselves and you're free to try and refute them if you can. So far, all you've proved to us is that you can't. My real name is [edited by PIC]. Shocked? Happy? Does that make my posts any more or less accurate now? Again, if you feel I'm wrong and you're right, you should be able to explain why. We're STILL waiting for you to post something that makes sense here.

"RIM is doing well because - like Palm before them - they were the first company to sell a device that successfully integrated the hardware and software to satisfy customers in a new niche. If they lost their lawsuit it could have been game over for RIM. Immediately."

And yet that didn't happen. See, that's the difference between reality and your tiny little head.


And had the Blackberry lawsuit been about anything other than someone trying to fleece Blackberry for a few hundred million $, they would have shut Blackberry down when they won the lawsuit. Instead, they reached an "agreement" with Blackberry and Blackberry had to bend over and take it Mike Cane-style.


"I believe the bulk of Treo 600 sales are to corporate customers."

You're free to believe whatever you want, but you're still wrong. The vast bulk of Treo sales are individual "prosumer" purchases. Again, sticking to the facts will make you look like less of a tool.

Please post links to where it breaks down the sales figures of Treos (private consumer vs. corporate). You can do it, Kirvin. I know you can. NOT.

"So you think PalmSource losing sales to Microsoft might actually HELP PalmSource's image??? Wow. You really are insane. Your "logic" seems to be the product of a diseased mind. Read your post again. Hilarious."

No, I think the Treo offered with Windows Mobile will help Palm OS's image. I see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, so let me try to make this simpler:

[SNIP some really shaky "logic" from a guy that needs to get someone to edit his drivel BEFORE he posts it from now on]

Now, VoR, let me help. What part of the above do you not understand?

Nothing you said makes sense, Kirvin. PPC and PalmOS device are now different flavors of the SAME thing: PDAs. They do the same thing these days, have the same features, run on the same processors and come with (almost) the same hardware. The average consumer only looks at what the devices can DO (PIM, camera, MP3, web browsing, etc.) and doesn't give a damn about which OS is running. If a PDA or smartphone comes with the familiar "Windows" name on it, the average consumer/IT peon may be more likely to choose it over an otherwise identical device running PalmOS. Such is the power of Microsoft's name and marketing muscle. That you don't seem to be able to grasp this is truly amazing. Even the newest newbie here understands that Microsoft has better brand recognition than "pa1mOne" (previously better known as "Palm"). I'm not going to bash you any more on this, since it now appears that you truly don't understand.

"The ink is barely dry on the China MobileSoft deal and suddenly you have this Asian saviour (a tiny startup company, by the way!) obviating the need for PalmSource to sell anything outside China?"

Not necessarily, but it's not unlikely. Are you aware of the fact that there are more Chinese cell phone users than there are Americans, period? That the Chinese cell market adds 5,000,000 new customers every month? Of course you didn't know this. If you did, you wouldn't have acted foolish in public.

Since you think you know so much about the Chinese domestic cellphone industry, why don't you fill in these gaps: How many phones/OS licenses did China MobileSoft sell in 2004? How big is their market share? How much did they make? What's that? Can't hear you, Kirvin. CMS is a TINY startup that happens to have some Linux engineers that PalmSource hoped could rescue enough Cobalt code that it could be cobbled into PalmLinux before everyone forgot who "Palm" was. The former Be engineers that were designing Cobalt started throwing too many wild pitches, so they were pulled in the bottom of the ninth, based loaded, PalmSource down three games to none and the score tied at zero. Do you really think China MobileSoft will save PalmSource's a$$? Do you still believe in the Easter Bunny?

You need to do some more READING before you can start touting yourself as a legitimate writer, Kirvin. Talk to Pogue or even Larry Garfield if you need some pointers. Take this as constructive criticism.


TVoR





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
mikecane @ 4/9/2005 9:08:17 PM # Q
>>>My real name is [edited by PIC].

What BS! Ryan is the only one who could edit out your name, and I doubt he's done that. Here this screeching eejit shows how stupid he thinks all of us are.

>>>and take it Mike Cane-style.

Continue your obsession with me, you illiterate. Your own "work" for PIC -- that ludicrous "Wah, Waah, Waaaah, Pweeeez Don't Kill the CLIE, Daddy Sony!" piece -- speaks for itself.

You are just a piece of meat, Mikey.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/9/2005 10:46:50 PM # Q
Bwa ha ha!





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Kirvin: Are you on the Palm payroll?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/10/2005 3:40:05 PM # Q
Just wondering, Kirvin: are you being paid by pa1mOne or PalmSource? Just want to make sure you don't have any conflict of interest here. Based on your bizarre comments in recent threads, I assume you're now being paid by one of the Palm Companies.





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
hkklife @ 4/10/2005 5:33:34 PM # Q
I suspect he is. I made a comment last week questioning the status of his interview/job prospect with PalmSource and it went eerily unanswered. My guess is that he's contractually obligated to keep mum on his employment status and use writingon yourpalm.net as his "front".

On the OTHER hand, if he were so employed, it's unlikely he'd be making continued references to circumenventing DRM on the Zod, running Netfront on non-Clies etc etc.

At any rate, the discussions here on PIC have been livelier and more entertaining than they have been in months. Voice, are we going to be seeing your VZ90 review prior to the LifeDrive launch? It'd make for fascinating reading...and then maybe a side-by-side test between those two units as an addendum at a later date.



Astroturfing?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/10/2005 6:06:40 PM # Q
I suspect he is. I made a comment last week questioning the status of his interview/job prospect with PalmSource and it went eerily unanswered. My guess is that he's contractually obligated to keep mum on his employment status and use writingon yourpalm.net as his "front".

That's pathetic. This would mean Palm has sunk to Microsoft's level and is now "Astroturfing". Wow. I expect we won't ever hear a peep out of Kirvin about this. I'll see if I can find out whether or not he got hired and then "out" his Astroturfing a$$ here on PIC.

On the OTHER hand, if he were so employed, it's unlikely he'd be making continued references to circumenventing DRM on the Zod, running Netfront on non-Clies etc etc.

Isn't it funny how he claims to be a "writer", yet has absolutely no respect for the intellectual property of others? Maybe it's because he has no intellectual property himself... Did you see the way he tried to rationalize his promotion of the theft of the CLIE NetFront browser by Tam Hanna? Unreal. It was like watching a four year old lie about stealing cookies. And this is someone that might work for PalmSource? At that rate, maybe they can hire The Zodiac Killer to head up work on PalmLinux???

At any rate, the discussions here on PIC have been livelier and more entertaining than they have been in months. Voice, are we going to be seeing your VZ90 review prior to the LifeDrive launch? It'd make for fascinating reading...and then maybe a side-by-side test between those two units as an addendum at a later date.

A colleague borrowed it last week and I'm waiting to get it back to take the photos and screenshots for the review. If Ryan is interested in publishing it, I'll send it in later this month and he can publish it after he reviews the new Palm. Yes, it will make for an interesting contrast to the new Palm. A comparison test between the two would have to be done by someone else. I don't plan on purchasing any more traditional PDAs - we now have enough CLIEs to use for the next 10 years and won't be buying any pa1mOne products unless they somehow fix their quality control. All I really want at this point is for Samsung to release one of those Vaporphones they've kept announcing over the past two years.






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
mikecane @ 4/10/2005 8:23:38 PM # Q
Poor blistermouth. When did the wife divorce you and what did she tell the judge that gave her custody of the two kids? I mean, after all, didn't the judge know you were a "medical professional"? Hahahaha. You couldn't buy another PDA if you wanted. Those alimony and child support payments must be killer. You should have come out of the closet earlier. Everyone knew it was all a sham, that "marriage." BTW, how have the hormone injections been coming along? I guess those blisters are actually bumps from the electrolysis...

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
jkirvin @ 4/10/2005 11:20:17 PM # Q
I'm out. I just don't have time for this anymore.

FYI, disclosure: http://tinyurl.com/5m2nb

Awwwwwwwww!
Gekko @ 4/10/2005 11:29:26 PM # Q

Awwwwwwwww! Looks like kirvin took his ball and went home!

What a big baby!



Drama Queens at PIC
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/11/2005 9:41:36 AM # Q
Poor blistermouth. When did the wife divorce you and what did she tell the judge that gave her custody of the two kids? I mean, after all, didn't the judge know you were a "medical professional"? Hahahaha. You couldn't buy another PDA if you wanted. Those alimony and child support payments must be killer. You should have come out of the closet earlier. Everyone knew it was all a sham, that "marriage." BTW, how have the hormone injections been coming along? I guess those blisters are actually bumps from the electrolysis...

Don't be so homophobic, Mike. People are people. I'm sure Dianne Hackborn is real impressed with your recent slur. Or are you no longer obsessed with her after seeing what she looks like? Dumba$$.

I'm out. I just don't have time for this anymore.

FYI, disclosure: http://tinyurl.com/5m2nb

Very dramatic, Kirvin. Your post on your little blog site is very classy:

"Sunday, April 10, 2005
PalmInfocenter and Astroturfing
PalmInfocenter Detailed Comment View (7748)

It's sad when good web sites go bad...

I'm never reading PalmInfocenter again, Ryan. You can't keep the trolls from engaging in personal attacks, and frankly, I've had enough and have better things to do with my time than deal with those wingnuts. I don't mind dissenting opinions, in fact I love them. I love a good debate. But these people aren't debating. They're engaging in personal attacks. They're trolls, pure and simple.

For those of you that don't read PIC (and you ain't missing anything), I've been personally attacked quite a bit recently by cowards who won't use their real names. My crime was saying nice things about PalmOne and PalmSource, which can't be allowed by this group of sad, bitter people.

However, I do feel compelled to state, for the record, my relationship with PalmOne and with PalmSource. I doubt the bitter will believe me, but for those you that still have open minds...

My relationship with PalmOne is purely that of a happy customer. I don't work for PalmOne in any way. I don't even get review units from them, although I'm certainly going to ask when they announce the Life Drive.

My relationship with PalmSource is a little more complicated. I have done some consulting work for them, for which I collected my one-time fee. I have also interviewed to replace Chris Dunphy as their Director of Competitive Analysis, and didn't get the job. They recently filled that position with someone from Transmeta. I no longer have any financial dealings with PalmSource at all. I am on an invite-only mailing list populated with PalmSource employees and folks that run Palm-oriented websites. There is no financial impact from being on this list.

That's it. I'm not being paid to shill for either company. In fact, if anything, losing out on the job at PalmSource could have made me bitter and antagonistic towards them.

But I'm better than that. I say what I say about these companies because I believe it. I'm a big fan of Palm OS and I'm a happy PalmOne customer. And anyone who doesn't like that is entitled to their opinion, but I just don't have time to listen to them anymore."

If that's your attitude, maybe now we know why PalmSource was wise to avoid hiring you. Think about it, Kirvin. I hope you have the guts to apologize to Ryan for your childish rant.






*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

PIC is #1
Gekko @ 4/11/2005 10:18:48 AM # Q

PIC is #1. PIC is the definitive site for no-holds-barred news, info, and discussion. kirvin only wishes he could create such a popular site. I found this hack/shill's posts here offensive as they were an insult to our intelligence.

GOOD RIDDANCE!

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
mikecane @ 4/11/2005 10:24:02 AM # Q
Me, homophobic? WHO keeps making the "bend over" comments to everyone? THOSE aren't slurs? You never did say what's up with the two kids. The move from Michigan to the Bay Area must have cost a few quid too -- or were you run out on a rail? When you choose your new feminine name, it's OK for it to begin with an R. Your birth name did, after all.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
hkklife @ 4/11/2005 11:19:12 AM # Q
Kirvin's comments about "stop living in the past" in response to the matters of a Graffiti 1 plug-in for current devices (which, I must add, was going along swell here on PIC until he stepped in and began his tirade) speak for themselves. He has, what, 3 domains of his own registered by now? I think he has plenty of places to air his views already.

I think it's time again to show our support for Ryan and his tireless one-man-show to keep PIC alive. Not only alive but devoid of the sanitizing that has rinsed all of the zeal from Brighthand, 1src, PDABuzz et al over the past few years.

Bravo, Ryan!


RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
mikecane @ 4/11/2005 1:27:30 PM # Q
Well, kudos to Ryan, of course.

"Rinsed all the zeal" -- so we're zealots now? But wasn't that Jeff's point?

For myself, I'd like to know how many Average People upgraded their OS4 units to an OS5 unit, tried to do the Graffiti they had learned, then found lhey were now wrlllng llke lhls -- got disgusted, and gave up on "Palms"?

G1 NOW. G1 FOREVER.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
hkklife @ 4/11/2005 1:57:17 PM # Q
Sorry, Mike, I meant to say that PIC was sticking true to its "no-holds-barred, no-punches-pulled, no hamfisted, bumbling explanations on why the T5 isn't as bad as it's made out to be, etc etc" guns in light of the advertiser-friendly whitwashing & dwindling interest levels that has plagued other mobile-related (TreoCentral & Engadget aside, of course) sites the past few years.

Zealots we're not. Just loyal, long-time POS users unafraid to call a spade a spade in regards to the events unfolding around what we feel is a superior mobile platform.

and, yes, G1 forever. Wanna pledge some $ to the G1 resurrection bounty?

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
mikecane @ 4/11/2005 4:01:21 PM # Q
Has anyone officially started a bounty? I'll be there. Not with much to start, but eventually.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
hkklife @ 4/11/2005 5:16:07 PM # Q
Voice and I are good for $50 apiece. I think Gekko unofficially chimed in with support as well. I am sure after the jackpotI tossed out the idea of someone registering www.savegraffiticlassic.com or www.savegraffiti1.com and doing just a standard PayPal collection plate thing. I am sure the offers will rolling in after the pot hits $200 or $300 or so and we get a few mentions on some POS-friendly site/blogs.

WANTED: Graffiti 1hack for late PalmOS 5 devices
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/11/2005 6:41:27 PM # Q
I'm definitely in for a $50 "contribution". We just need a place that people can start making pledges.

hkklife: Have you tried contacting shadowmite of Treo hacking fame? He could probably hack the libraries to work.

Voice: Your signature
Admin @ 4/11/2005 7:28:33 PM # Q
FYI, I was trying to trim down the stars b/c they were distorting the page formatting and by accident lost the whole sig.

Thanks for the support guys, appreciated!

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
Calroth @ 4/11/2005 7:34:56 PM # Q
Hey, all. Just to let you know that I'm another one who's deleting PalmInfocenter from my bookmarks and RSS. I don't post much but I read a bit, and the discussion frankly sucks. See ya.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
Gekko @ 4/11/2005 7:42:03 PM # Q

Before we got all excited about saving G1, let's see what this LifeDrive device is really all about first. If this thing ends up being another PIG, G1 on PalmOS may not be worth saving.



RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
Gekko @ 4/11/2005 7:44:28 PM # Q

Calroth - yes - go over to kirvin's site(s). I hope you enjoy listening to the crickets.



RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/11/2005 8:36:15 PM # Q
FYI, I was trying to trim down the stars b/c they were distorting the page formatting and by accident lost the whole sig.


Ummmmm... suuuure Ryan. Steve Jobs got to you, didn't he? If he's watching you now, pull on your left earlobe to let us know you're OK.

I'm leaving in a dramatic huff!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/11/2005 8:41:17 PM # Q
[SNIP vomitus from Colroth]

I wonder why someone why admittedly never contributed to Palminfocenter felt the need announce his departure.



VOR you would not last 2 days on WOYP.
rcartwright @ 4/11/2005 11:13:54 PM # Q
First, Jeff had no ax to grind with Ryan and his only criticism was the foaming at the mouth personal attacks that contributed nothing to the debate. Jeff's not afraid of rough and tumble, at least from what I see over at WOYP. VOR seemed to delight at attacking Kirvins' writing. He is a published author, he ahd Josh Curry are putting together an intersting idea with SoloMedia. If I was in his shoes, I would be pretty hacked by people who seem to only be able to spew sewage. Especally by people who don't have the guts to use their real names. Mike Cane is, to put it mildly, a private person. Even so, he signs with his real name.

A lot of the debate here reminds me of the old lawyer joke " If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If the law and the facts are aganist you, pound on the table and yell like hell. Thats what a lot of discussions on PIC degenerate into.

All that said, I don't agree with Jeff's decision to leave. Its too much like a doctor leaving an operation before all of the cancer is removed. While I am poles apart from Jeff politically, I hate to see some on the board doing the happy dance.

Finally, regarding the slur on the WOYP group, its quite active thank you very much. The difference is that its a worldwide collection of grownups having adult discussions. Thats why VOR would not last long.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

Are you speaking to me?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/12/2005 12:21:40 AM # Q
.

Bring it on, JK. Bring it on.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/12/2005 12:32:17 AM # Q
First, Jeff had no ax to grind with Ryan and his only criticism was the foaming at the mouth personal attacks that contributed nothing to the debate. Jeff's not afraid of rough and tumble, at least from what I see over at WOYP. VOR seemed to delight at attacking Kirvins' writing. He is a published author, he ahd Josh Curry are putting together an intersting idea with SoloMedia. If I was in his shoes, I would be pretty hacked by people who seem to only be able to spew sewage. Especally by people who don't have the guts to use their real names. Mike Cane is, to put it mildly, a private person. Even so, he signs with his real name.

A lot of the debate here reminds me of the old lawyer joke " If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If the law and the facts are aganist you, pound on the table and yell like hell. Thats what a lot of discussions on PIC degenerate into.

All that said, I don't agree with Jeff's decision to leave. Its too much like a doctor leaving an operation before all of the cancer is removed. While I am poles apart from Jeff politically, I hate to see some on the board doing the happy dance.

Finally, regarding the slur on the WOYP group, its quite active thank you very much. The difference is that its a worldwide collection of grownups having adult discussions. Thats why VOR would not last long.

Allow me to destroy your statements:

First of all, if he "had no ax to grind with Ryan", W T F is he doing cheap shotting Ryan, PIC and every PIC reader with his puerile little rant. Kirvin needs to grow up. A real man would come back and publicly apologize to Ryan and everyone here for what he said. In other words, Kirvin won't be apologizing.

"foaming at the mouth personal attacks"??? Love the histrionics. Did Kirvin teach you to write like that? The only attacks going on here are tongue in cheek, as anyone over the age of three (mentally) could easily discern. Mike Cane has been publicly shamed and flogged here so often, I've lost count, but I don't see him running off to his Mama when he's made to look like a fool. If Kirvin claims to be an author and has such thin skin... well, he's got a lot to learn. Kirvin would get his a$$ whipped in a nunnery and then run off sobbing hysterically, screeching, "I'm out. I just don't have time for this anymore." To use his words, Kirvin "makes me sad".

"VOR seemed to delight at attacking Kirvins' writing." Bull. I'm simply stating the facts. He is a sh!tty writer. Unfortunately it seems many people are either too polite or caught up in his seemingly-perpetual angst to actually tell him. Whatever. If that's the delusion he wants to cling to, let him cling. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the facts: he can't write worth sh!t.

"He is a published author". Oh, like that means much these days. Any hack with a computer and a couple hundred bucks can become a "published author". Even you, Bubba.

"people who don't have the guts to use their real names." Not everyone wishes to reveal their true name to the world. Guess why. But all will be revealed in my upcoming Fox special with Geraldo Rivera: TVoR's Vault.

The only one "pounding the table" seems to be Kirvin. Go back and read the threads he's participated in here recently. His arguments have varied from the weak to the inane to the prepostrous. Even when shown how shaky his positions were, he persisted. Kirvin "makes me sad".

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7748#105689
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7740#105690
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7748#105693
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7748#105711
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7748#105714
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7740#105715
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7740#105740
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7748#105741
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7748#105742
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7748#105783

If this was a boxng match, his corner should have thrown in the towel after his first post.

"I don't agree with Jeff's decision to leave." I'm not surprised he left. His posts made him look like an idiot and he just couldn't back down. Running back and seeking comfort from the Kirvin Fan Klub on his little blog site was all he could do to protect his fragile ego. I don't usually agree with Geeko, but Kirvin basically took his ball and ran home like a four year old child. Kirvin "makes me sad".

Any group that suppresses differing opinions quickly becomes useless as a resource. Some people here don't like hearing about PPC, but at least the competition (hopefully) keeps Palm honest. Same goes for Sony, Garmin, Tapwave, news about Treo, PalmSource, Cobalt, bugs, hackbod, etc., etc. Enjoy your circle jerk (or more correctly, triangle jerk - there can't be more than 3 people following the Kirvin soap opera these days...) with this literary giant among giants. I'm not interested in that kind of activity, so yes, I would never be caught dead on Kirvin's blog site. Kirvin "makes me sad".



re: Are You Speaking to Me?
rcartwright @ 4/12/2005 12:44:39 AM # Q
Vor Said

VoR,

This might be your best post ever on PIC!

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

ARE YOU SPEAKING TO ME!!!!!!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/12/2005 1:33:21 AM # Q






























Say hello to my little friend.

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
SeldomVisitor @ 4/12/2005 7:15:14 AM # Q
> ...Any group that suppresses differing opinions quickly becomes
> useless as a resource...

Oh. You're watching what's happening to TreoCentrel, too, eh?

RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
mikecane @ 4/12/2005 9:21:07 AM # Q
>>>A real man would come back and publicly apologize to Ryan and everyone here for what he said.

Hahahahaha. Looks whose giving lectures on manners. The cheek of this guy is astounding (as his many customers have commented!).

You best line yet, Cane. Congrats.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/12/2005 1:12:01 PM # Q
The cheek of this guy is astounding (as his many customers have commented!).

I almost sprayed Coke (as in Cola) over my monitor as I read that one.


RE: The dark side! First a little boy then became jealous.
mikecane @ 4/12/2005 3:33:29 PM # Q
I'll keep that in mind. I can always hope to drown you remotely.

Reply to this comment

Photos

just_little_me @ 4/7/2005 7:31:46 PM # Q
Several people took photos...? So where are they...?

Suicide for palmOne if this is for real. I'll go back to my Apple Newton in protest!


JLM.

RE: Photos
Moose Man @ 4/7/2005 8:08:41 PM # Q
Hastily tucked away.....means no one was able to capture a photo.

I think that this will be a real revelation and will turn out to be true......probably in May.

A Palm wannabe fanatic

RE: Photos
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 4:22:12 AM # Q
I wouldn't expect to see any Treos of any stripes until the fall.

RE: Photos
hkklife @ 4/8/2005 11:38:32 AM # Q
P1 are going to have their hands full this spring/summer getting bugfixes out for existing legacy products (GSM Treo 650, T5 NVFS patch) and rolling the 650 out with new carriers (Verizon first and foremost)...and launching the LifeDrive and dealing with the guaranteed assortment of "issues" that'll emerge from it.

I'd expect a new Cobalt Treo this fall alongside a PPC Treo for a specific customer/carrier (Sprint only is my guess). Probably a T|C2 or a new Zire 73 in the fall as well.


Reply to this comment

Well...

vesther @ 4/7/2005 7:45:07 PM # Q
Well, I hope that the WM Treo will only have 32MB Memory, it better not surpass the PalmSource-powered Treo....

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002
RE: Well...
Calroth @ 4/7/2005 9:04:24 PM # Q
Why should it not surpass the Palm OS Treo? I say that if they want to make it better, let them.

Reply to this comment

Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?

mikecane @ 4/7/2005 9:04:52 PM # Q
Having had my GENIO go into Sudden Screen Death Syndrome this AM, I can only think this will go down as the worst decision p1 has ever made -- topping FRAM.

Ramp up the Bangalorean "tech support" center, Ed. They're going to be mighty busy when this thing hits the fan -- er, store shelves.

(Aside from the GENIO's AM SSDS, it also had the wonderful quality of crashing 2-3x/day. And that was with NO OTHER APPS INSTALLED!)

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 4:19:19 AM # Q
Mike, it sounds like your Genio was defective. Crashing isn't normal, and screen death definitely isn't. May I suggest a Dell Axim X30 624 MHz model? It's newer, better, and far, far faster.

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
Masamune @ 4/8/2005 6:46:16 AM # Q
Mike, may I suggest a good quality Clie such as one from the TJ line? A Zodiac 2 could also be a good bet.

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
dq @ 4/8/2005 9:00:17 AM # Q
RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/8/2005 9:49:33 AM # Q
Oh look at the PPC weenies come out to shill their silly decision. It's amazing that they have time to troll here. It must be while they're waiting for their systems to reboot from those crashes.

Crashing *is* normal for that iteration of PPC. The GENIO boards were filled with similar tales from more dedicated owners than I. As for the screen? I have no clue. It's dead, Jim. Good riddance. Bring on the LifeDrive!

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
Gekko @ 4/8/2005 10:10:04 AM # Q

MikeCon - stop using antiques for your computing needs and maybe you'll have more luck.

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
dq @ 4/8/2005 10:53:08 AM # Q
Mike,

It looks like you didn't follow the link in my previous post...


RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 1:07:28 PM # Q
I trust, Mike, that you never see the irony of your bashing all PocketPCs to justify YOUR stance on the matter.

The Genios don't have a great reputation for reliability, as you've found out firsthand--unless you're going to try to claim that all PocketPCs suffer from screen death. Now, since you need your G1, I'm suggesting you take a look at an X30. I think you would find it's a lot more stable and reliable than your old Genio.

Redmond's Folly
svrontis @ 4/8/2005 2:48:08 PM # Q
System crashes are common for all makes of WinCE/PPC/WinMobile/whatever, including the x30. Just go to any of the internet forums if you can bear to read all the sad stories.

Let me give you an example based on personal experience. A few weeks ago I was sitting in my office, minding someone else's business, when all of a sudden I heard a smashing sound next door and angry shouts. I went to investigate. It turned out that one of my (more highly-strung) partners had thrown his XDA II against the wall. The wreckage was lying on the floor and he was ranting to his secretary about how much he had paid it, what a piece of garbage it was, etc, etc. After I calmed him down, he explained that it had crashed twice that morning - the second time, when he was on the line with an important client. My partner has a Treo 650 now; his office wall still bears the scars of his little tantrum. (The head of our IT department, who recommended the XDA II, has not had the guts to show his face on our level ever since.)

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
Gekko @ 4/8/2005 3:23:31 PM # Q

oh yeah - Palm's latest and greatest - the T5 and The Treo 650 ***NEVER*** crash.

http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2005/03/t5_update.html

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=78548

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."



RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/8/2005 3:26:05 PM # Q
You can recite tales like that Murder-the-XDA one as many time as you wish: It doesn't sink into PPC weenies' heads. They are used to the instability of *Windows* -- "Hey, this is how computers *work*!" And all those MVP suckups will *never* admit how many times a day (that's PER DAY!) their devices crash. Gotta keep the suckers coming in, paying admission to see the egress!

As for instability in general -- hey, just try migrating your apps from one iteration of POS to another! I went through hell going from an S320 (OS4) to a TE (OS5).

Gekko has a point (and not just the one formed by his head), but the GENIO had been a lust object of mine (foolish me!), so when I had the chance to get one cheeeep via ebay, I did. I feel *very* sorry for those people who shelled out the $500 for that dog when it debuted. It's still a beautiful device -- on the surface only.

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
InsGuy @ 4/8/2005 3:36:09 PM # Q
G1 was one of the reasons I went with the X50v. Someone posted earlier that many people see P1 as a simple PIM device, and a ppc as small pc. Unfortunately, this may be true for a lot of people. I can do MORE with my ppc than I could with my Z2, but I still found the Z2 to be 'easier' to use. If I have to enter data, I want to be able to use G1. I also like the removable batteries, BT & wifi, etc... on my X50v, BUT, I STILL MISS THE EASE OF Palm OS. If this new rumor is true (and I hope it is NOT) poor PSRC is probably doomed.

All good things...
RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/8/2005 4:04:21 PM # Q
For those who STILL don't understand the resistance to G1: Hello! At one time, America was supposed to convert to the metric system, to get us to play nice with the rest of the world (that would've helped with one of those Mars explorers, I know...) -- but it didn't happen because there was RESISTANCE. G1 NOW, G1 FOREVER.

I will shout about this until p1 and/or PS RELENTS!

Or until some enterprising screw-the-lawyers coder decides to take on the challenge...

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 5:44:44 PM # Q
Any computer product crashes once in awhile. That's life. The first time I tried out Linux, much lauded for its stability, it locked up within 15 minutes. That said, modern computers, both desktop and handheld, are remarkably stable when they're used properly. User error produces the majority of crashes on any modern platform, including Palm and PPC.

I haven't had a single crash on any of the PocketPCs under my care within the last three weeks. That includes the X30, by the way. And having carried many of both Palms and PPCs, I've found that neither one is really more stable than the other. Argue your personal preference of interface, simplicity versus power, or whatever you like, but you're not entitled to create new facts to suit your argument.

Redmond's Folly
svrontis @ 4/8/2005 11:01:52 PM # Q
> Argue your personal preference of interface, simplicity versus power, or whatever you like, but you're not entitled to create new facts to suit your argument.

I must remember to pass this on to our IT supremo, when he looses his job. One of this staff calls him a 'dead man walking' (behind his back) because of the little incident I mentioned above.

Redmond's Folly
svrontis @ 4/8/2005 11:07:27 PM # Q
> I can do MORE with my ppc than I could with my Z2

Yes, you can practice your pitching with it. ;^)

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
heavyduty @ 4/9/2005 5:05:48 AM # Q
**System crashes are common for all makes of WinCE/PPC/WinMobile/whatever, including the x30. Just go to any of the internet forums if you can bear to read all the sad stories.**

So?
A friend of mine bought the T5, although I repeatedly told him not to do so, and it has crashes on him regularly... while using the built-in calendar! And yes, he has installed all the patches.

He sorely regrets his choice saying this will be his last Palm ever. Personally I came to that conclusion earlier, although I owned several Palms since 2000. But Palm has simply slipped behind...

And as a WM user currently, I'd love to see that on a Treo; that's bad news for pSource, but excellent news for consumers.

Redmond's Folly
svrontis @ 4/9/2005 9:28:46 AM # Q
> So?

So? I'll tell you 'So?'

When I pick up the phone, it works. OK, maybe 0.01% of the time it doesn't. But it gets fixed. And then it works again.

A PPC device, on the other hand, crashes regularly (daily, according to some users). This doesn't get fixed. And there is nothing you can to do prevent the system crashing. (You can't even trust ActiveSync to back-up your data properly, for goodness sake.)

Why is that? Is it because the M$ operating system is more intricate than the nation-wide telecommunications system? I don't think so.

No, it's because our friends at M$ will not spend the money to produce a reliable product. Why should they? After all, they have managed to con IT professionals like you into accepting sub-standard products with a casual shrug of the shoulders.

In other words, our friends at M$ have utterly no respect for the consumer. And they will not mend their ways as long as people keep buying their defective products.

Pocketpc's ARE Stable
Surur @ 4/9/2005 10:05:21 AM # Q

With my current pocketpc (the very nice FSC Loox 720 VGA 128Mb ram 64Mb flash rom 520Mhz wifi bluetooth 1.2 dual slot USB host jog dial 1.3 Megapixel camera with flash) the only problem I have had on a recurrent basis has been with the bluetooth stack, supplied by widdcom/broadcom. The only blame I lay at MS's feet is the lack of development of their own native stack, but I believe they are addressing it slowly. Even then it works most of the time. The actual OS is functional, if not slick, and if you understand windows, you understand pocketpc's.

The device is also extremely hackable. For some its a strength, and for others (such as palmistas) its a weakness. Of course pocketpc's have a way to go with usability (but wm2005 (magneto) appears to have addressed a lot of these issues) but stability has been sorted a while ago.

Surur

[i]Windows Mobile - Best hardware, most flexible software[/i]

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/9/2005 1:06:04 PM # Q
>>>User error produces the majority of crashes on any modern platform, including Palm and PPC.

This guy is fekkin INSANE.

Pocketpcs ARE stable - really?
svrontis @ 4/9/2005 5:23:25 PM # Q
The Loox 720 has some impressive looking spec - on paper, that is. But take a look at this bug list:

http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showthread.php?t=2128

NB. This list is just from one forum and it relates to this model only.

If you widen your search to other Loox models, or WinCE/PPC/WinMobile/whatever units in general, you end up with an amazing panoply of problems. The common theme is that these devices crash regularly, and there is nothing you can do to stop the errant behaviour.

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/9/2005 5:53:28 PM # Q
Yep, it's like that for EVERY model. The specific problems might be different, but basically it's all the same crapola. And this has been going on since the FIRST "Palm-Size PC."

It took *PalmOS* several generations to become unstable. WinCE/PPC/WinMob was birthed that way and shows few signs of improving.

Just wait for the list of *new* bugs the latest WinMob adds!

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
Surur @ 4/9/2005 6:13:56 PM # Q
Actually after reading through that whole thread I found only 2-3 references to freezing pocketpc's. There were more complaints about bluetooth and wifi problems, which are often due to complex interactions. Contrary to your statement, many solutions to people's problems were posted also. Some "bugs" were frankly just complaints e.g regarding camera quality or button response times.

So people will see for themselves I will paste as much of the tread as possible below. I apologize for the space it takes up, but misconceptions regarding pocketpc's need to be corrected.

Surur

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a certain lag when pressing the hardware buttons (calendar, contacts, today, etc.) which makes it impossible to play Jump'n'Run games or use a Gameboy Emulator. In addition to that (likley to be caused by the 'hold'-function of the hardware buttons) only short hits of the hardware buttons are registered by some games but longer pression (e.g. for higher jumps are not registered at all...)

2.)
Sometimes BT refuses to be turned on stating an error message that BT has to be turnde on in order to run the BT manager or the software switch. Only a soft-reset helps then...

Top and bottom loudspeaker can only be switched on or off together --> Usage of top speaker for VoIP is therefore very limited


Spelling and grammar in the Help text files very poor.

Occasional errormessage when enabling bluetooth:
Error not enough driver memory ...

soft reset or closing programs helps

sorry! Bluetooth can no longer be used because license is expired.

e:mail attachments larger than ca 100k don't download to the loox if using either Activesync or a GPRS connection (only work over WLAN connection)

Inserting a Sprint Compact Flash Connection card will always cause a hard reset!!

There is some problem with 320x240 gapi mode (screen freezes after aprox 10 minutes) Picard's gapi driver fixes it (and it is faster).

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc
Inserting a Sprint Compact Flash Connection card will always cause a hard reset!!

I responded to another thread (yours?) on this matter.

I use the sprint card often with NO issues at all so I'm not sure how this could be a bug?

See my post on the other thread about this...

It's not a bug, but annoying anyway.... my stylus just broke, the upper plastic part, while I was removing it from the Loox... Beware seems to be fragile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desarzens
It's not a bug, but annoying anyway.... my stylus just broke, the upper plastic part, while I was removing it from the Loox... Beware seems to be fragile.

This is worrying considering the lack of available accessories for the 720. How easy/difficult is it going to be to get replacements once the two you get are bust ?

With a bit of glue I managed to repair it... However, you are right. I hope that this shortage of accessories will be dealt with soon by FJS!

Talking about accessories... look at the link here below:
http://vilpublic.fujitsu-siemens.co...on=plain.action


Bugger I just broke my stylus too! I've only has it just over a week. But I have a habit of holding my stylus between my teeth and waggling it up and down when I'm concentrating which probably hasn't helped. I'm sure superglue will fix it.

(I could chomp all day on my T3 stylus)

The screw threads are ruined too. I think when it's fixed I'll just use a paper clip for resets.

I am a Linux user and I cannot install software with Activesync. Sometimes, if I have the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SOFTWARE/Apps/Microsoft Application Installer/fAskDest set to 1 (to install to LOOXStore or SD card), the device soft resets.

I just ran into something wierd. I wanted to compose an email with Messenging (Pocket Inbox) and the app wouldn't launch. I thought it was a shortcut problem, so I viewed the shortcut link and saw that it was linked to \windows\tmail.exe. This would not launch either.

I had performed a backup earlier so I performed a hard reset and then a restore and then Messenging worked. Strange.

I have just taken delivery of my Loox720 and a Loox420 and found that the WIFI was not really picking upon wireless networks regardless of the settings of the AP.

I have a 3Com 11g DSL Modem Router and I have left it on b and g mixed. I added the mac address of the loox to the filtered list and now have applied a WEP key. I tried every combination of settings.

If I set the loox to use static ip addressing then it would work. However using DHCP would always result in a 169.254.XXX.XXX ip address which is the result of the dhcp client component in the network adapter not being able to get an ip address. Curiously whilst this was the case, the dhcp server had actally allocated an ip address to the loox. The problem appeared to be the Loox not picking up on the ip addresses allocated by the dhcp server. I found ocassionaly about 1 in 30 attempts, the loox would pick up on the settings but not the gateway address. Releasing addresses on the loox did not always result in all the ip settings being released.

I tried some other tcp/ip programs on the loox to acquire and release ip settings but the results were the same which imples that the problem is more likely to be in the operating system or implementation of the network layer in the loox.

Eventually I tried the changing the power setting on the network adapter from the default value of Auto to Enable or Disable.

When set to 'Enable' the LX420 seems to work fine every time but the 720 picks up on the ip settings about once in 3 attempts.

When set to 'Disable' both the LX420 and the LX720 work every time.

does that mean using dhcp server settings for the wireless network will not work in the loox 720?


I've been playing around with my Loox 720 and decided to test out the power saving feature.

I set the processor to run in power save mode, unticked the 'on battery power - turn off device' and did the same for the backlight option.

I then left the device uncradled and played a couple of albums in .wmv format to play on repeat. I also went back to the today screen and setup the game Defiance:the last frontier to play (with the albums still playing).

This is what I used to do daily with my Ipaq 3970 while travelling to work.

So far I've got 5hrs 46mins of run-time and still have 16% displayed on battery, which is not bad at all. However I've had to reset the device FIVE times as it kept freezing.

It wasn't the games as I also tried Pocket Nester and Octopuzzle. The device continued to freeze no matter what game was playing, while playing Octopuzzle the game slowed down significantly before finally freezing. The device just seemed unable to make it's mind up as either windows media player would just freeze, the games running would freeze or the whole device would just lock up.

I don't know if a memory leak is occuring with windows media player (which was the only constant). But so many resets in one battery charge is unacceptable.

I'm gonna try the device running the same apps (hopefully only one game) in standard mode and see how it compares.

At the current rate, with the difficulty in getting a case, sync & power cables and now freezing during general use. I'm tempted to return it under the 21 day return policy. Just for the record it also has a clearly visible screen smudge, but this doesn't bother me so much.

I once had the following: After having used the camera in the morning and not touching the device the whole day I tried to switch it on in the evening, but couldn't - only the green led next to the power button flashed. After a soft-reset the battery was down to 12% with my uptime plugin showing 14 minutes of total uptime. The battery was rather warm.
As I said it happened to me once, but I have seen similar reports from other users as well...

My camera just stop working... I am having message

Failed to initialize camera. 36001:100:0

Hard reset and restore from backup didnt solve a problem. Any ideas???


FSC Keylock icon stands in the way of Tillanosoft's SmallMenu Accumulator icon.

Really not a bug, but i want an option to turn off the icon while in the keylock mode (and of course while not in keylock mode too).

Hello!

I don't know if it is a bug. But when I make a soft reset, there comes the following message:

Code:
Can not open IrDA!
Pease close any other application that makes use of IrDA/CIR and try again.
I can't use my IR-Port to connect to Cell or use it as an remote commander.


Bug, inserting a CF memory card in the loox will only sometimes recognize the card and destroys data if card is reinserted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mla_de_nijs
Bug, inserting a CF memory card in the loox will only sometimes recognize the card and destroys data if card is reinserted.


What did you do? Which card are you using?
I cannot reproduce this with a CF card here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmpilot
Can not open IrDA!
Pease close any other application that makes use of IrDA/CIR and try again.


I had the same problem. The only solution I found was a backup - hard-reset - restore. After this IrDA was ok again.


BUG?: When I use the E2C app. (v.2.01) to connect to my local wireless AP the right LED starts to flash and keeps on flashing when I disconnect or kill the app. Only a soft reset helps.

PS: my ROM version is P22452-P929-V702 (not V701)


Quote:
Originally Posted by FedorComander
My camera just stop working... I am having message

Failed to initialize camera. 36001:100:0

Hard reset and restore from backup didnt solve a problem. Any ideas???


I have encounter similar problem when betaplayer is still running, but really strange if a hard reset does not solve the problem!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Addic
I've been playing around with my Loox 720 and decided to test out the power saving feature.

I set the processor to run in power save mode, unticked the 'on battery power - turn off device' and did the same for the backlight option.

I then left the device uncradled and played a couple of albums in .wmv format to play on repeat. I also went back to the today screen and setup the game Defiance:the last frontier to play (with the albums still playing).

The the alternative vgagapi discussed on this site. I had a lot of freeze problems until I installed this. No problems since!

I have read many of your comments, and so far the poor picture quality in the camera is not a bug. Im suprised at some of your comments concerning the camera. Did you buy the PDA to be used as a full functioning camera? I have a Pentax digi cam to take real good pictures, and I dont rely on my PDA to do the same, if it was good as a digi cam, then the size would be larger. IMO, your comments on the camera is absolutely flawed and a moot point.

@ riuster
No, I don't think anybody bought the Loox 720 for it's camera only. Definitely not to replace a normal digi cam. If the Loox would have been available without a camera I would have gone for that one if it would have saved me some money. I also have a digi cam (Sony V1) and there is no chance that I ever would leave it at home in favour of the Loox (for photo shooting purposes that is).

Having said that: this does not mean that just because there is a camera at all one can not complain about it's misserable quality. Your mileage may vary, but for me the camera is more-less useless in ordinary indoor environments. I am not talking about extreem situations such as "candlelights-only environments". Appart from the low light issue the -lack of- focus really sucks. This combination of facts makes it in many cases of no use whatsoever.
A purpose many users could think of using the camera for is snapshots of documents, maybe take a picture in a shop of a product you consider to purchase, unexpected meetings with old friends... (if the meeting was expected you would have taken your digi cam, right?)

Again, without doubt the camera is a kind of a bonus but you have paid for it, hence one has the right to complain about the quality of it. Once it is there it should IMO work properly and it should be usefull (yeah, I know YMMV). That it does not replace a digi cam is self-evident and insignificant.

What you would do if you just bought a new car and the sound quality of the build in car stereo would be really poor? Same reaction: I have an excellent stereo at home that I can listen to any time with superb sound quality, so my complains about the car stereo would be "flawed and a moot point"?

The Loox 720 is a great device - the camera is just not.


When using headphones sometimes the sound comes only from one channel. Inicially I was supposing it was a bad contact, but after unplug and re-plug several times, I found that if I adjusted the main volume slider in the 720 the sound started to play from both channels. It does´t happen always but quite often.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Looxury
Again, without doubt the camera is a kind of a bonus but you have paid for it

Everything depends on how much I've paid for it. If 1-2 dollars (I don't think it is much more), then the camera is welcome, even when my almost 2 years old Zire71's camera makes better pics. After all, it's fairly usable outdoors.


@ Menneisyys
Well, as said before our mileage may vary.
It is worth to mention that experimenting with the settings when shooting your pictures can give significantly better results. I even found the night settings to be useful at daytime in certain circumstances.
Since the pictures get quite noisy I found "Neat Image" a useful tool to enhance the final result. http://www.neatimage.com/download.html
It's a PC tool (not PPC) but it does nice work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
I once had the following: After having used the camera in the morning and not touching the device the whole day I tried to switch it on in the evening, but couldn't - only the green led next to the power button flashed. After a soft-reset the battery was down to 12% with my uptime plugin showing 14 minutes of total uptime. The battery was rather warm.
As I said it happened to me once, but I have seen similar reports from other users as well...

I'm seeing something similar. This is my first PDA so I wasn't sure what was going on. I had been using the PDA and then plugged it into a travel charger (I was away from home) before going to bed. The PDA didn't come on as it should, but I didn't worry about it at the time. In the morning, the PDA was dead as a doornail. I thought at first that the charger had burned it out or something (it's a third party charger from BoxWave), but when I got home I plugged it into my regular charger and it came back to life - the battery was just completely drained.

Then just now something similar happened again. The thing just died for no reason, after I'd been using it with no problems. It dies when it's sitting there, unused, not when I'm using it, so it's probably a bug in the power saver. This time I did a soft reset before the battery drained, and now it's fine again.

I was going to return the PDA to Expansys (I'm in the US) for exchange, but if all the Loox 720's have this problem, I won't bother.

Where did you find the uptime utility? Can you post a link?


I guess this one belongs here as well: http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2670

Quote:
Originally Posted by degranualtie
sorry! Bluetooth can no longer be used because license is expired.

I've had this problem aswell but then i just restarted bt and it worked.

surfer

My Loox touch screen suddenly died. The first symptom was that in the bottom center of the screen didn't calibrate right. When I pressed with stylus in letter recognition space, the letter drawing started 1 cm upper than it should.

I soft reseted the device, recalibrated it, hard reseted it and nothing helped. It took about two hours with 'wrong' calibration and after that the touch screen just died. Buttons worked fine, but the touch screen didn't recognize any touches.

Yesterday I sent the loox to service and now I'm waiting about one to two weeks to get it back.


My list (after a week or so):

1.) Power button too easy to press, the unit often switches on in user's pocket or even Loox original supplied leather case, and when I need it, I find battery to be down...

2.) Stylus is too loose in the silo, it falls out every time I take the PDA out from its leather case...

3.) VoIP speaker quite useless without being able to switch bottom speaker off, VoIP software can only be used with external earphones due to extreme echo (speaker and mic next to each other)... In later versions I would prefer the VoIP speaker on the back side of PC to avoid grease on the LCD.

4.) E2C not a bad idea, but it should be improved a lot. It should be capable of handling more connections: it is too tedious to change params each time: PDA users tend to use the device as mobile: home, office, several hotspots... etc.

5.) Camera quality below any expectation, even worse than a mobile phone's low-tec cam. Mine even has a white fog-patch in the very middle of the picture.

about ur first item on the list,u can look the buttons and
the device wont turn on so easily.
i agree with the stylus and the stylus itself is much too thin 4 me.
an easy way to fix the echo is by adding an option to lower vol
in the lower speaker only.hopefully FS will include it in a rom update.
camera is really useless.


Adhoc wifi mode will randomly disconnect and then reconnect itself. Sometimes once in 20 minutes, sometimes 4 or 5 times in 1 minute. Very annoying when on Internet.

Sometimes get constant "page cannot be found" on Internet. Have to refresh wifi settings and or reset device.

This was before and after ROM update.


Check out the last post in this thread: http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2316

It may help you too, and if not then you can reverse the "force compatibility mode".

Although before you try it, have you disabled WLAN power-saving mode?

I have recently purchased a 1gb sd card and downloaded my music and photos via my pc onto it.
i then tried to access it on the loox
however very soon pocketmusic only found corrupt file names om the loox memory card.
i was speaking to technical support about my wifi not work (BTW does anyone have a step by step on how to get wifi setup and working), and he mentioned that the 1gb card is not supported.
he said a fix might be available.
has anyone else come accross this?

My generic 1GB SD card has corrupted a couple of times in the three weeks since I got it.

I came across to this issue when changing kingston 512 MB SD card to another 512 MB SD card with different file-structure on it. The Pocket Explorer, betaplayer etc. showd content of the card with weird letters and small boxes (I thought that time that somehow Loox broke the SD-card or it did't support a card from different manufacturer or I have accidently damaged it or it was just corrupted). Well, I chechked the cards content in my card reader - which said that everything is safe and ok. I put it back to my loox and then it was working fine.

This issue came up at the very first time with betaplayer. The prosedure how to get rid of this kind of "corrupted shown" data was next: when I change card to another, I have to change it while betaplayer is started. If not, the content of the card is shown as "corrupted". The same thing goes with file-explorer and other softwares.

I think this is connected to PPC's feature - when you power it off and turn it on little later, ppc starts from the same point and condition as you left it. Dunno is this accurate way to say, but I think it is regarding to cache issue - PPC remembers the view on next time you wake the device on. When you change SD-Card while it is in off/standby and power it up, you probably know what is going to hapen. It remembers the last card you used, but when it is not physically there, device shows the content of the card differently (as corrupted).

This same thing goes when you jumping from program to another, after I have changed SD-Card. I'm sure that you know that most of the softwares, when you close them, they start at next time in same condition as you left it - just like device itself when turning it off and then back on. For example Betaplayer has an setting for "keep playlist". When I change a card to another, which doesen't have the movie file I watched before (betaplayer remembers exact position of the movie I left it) and when I try to open another movie, it shows the card content the way I described before (sorry for repeating this).

I really don't know does this bring solution for you - this works on my 512 MB SD-Cards when I change them to another (ejecting the disk and pluging it back while the specific software I'm working with is on).

You can try formatting the card with Loox own formatting tool, or use a 3rd party software (Pocket Mechanic) to format your card to different format regarding factory pre-format settings. I've formatted only one SD-card with loox own format utility, and that card works (comparing to my other cards) the best. For my self, I haven't tryed over 512 MB cards on my Loox - but I was thinking to buy an 2 GB SD card in near future. So if this is an common issue with big cards, I have to give a second thought to that (2 gb card is not the cheapest one)

P.S. you got to remember that I'm not a pro in these kind of things so don't take my comments or suggestions in literally and I hope you look this with little distru****l.

Lack of proper manuals ( Premium phone support line instead)
Lack of proper guidance for WLAN setup
Inconsistent WLAN behaviour requiring hard resets
Help files on the unit useless.

Neither of you guys with corrupt SD cards have moved the IE cache files (or any other sort of temp files) to there, have you? That's known to cause all sorts of horrible problems. Once it is messed up, a re-format is the best solution.

For the record, my 1GB SD card works fine.


I used to have mine on there, but I applied the upgrade yesterday, after which the card got corrupted. So at that point I hadn't moved the cache back to the SD card.

Actually I've just moved it to the SD card. I'd rather put up with the odd corruption than have all those files slowing the Loox down. I only have movie files, books etc on there, so it's fairly easy to restore it if it gets corrupted.


no i had not moved my ie cache to the card. but the corruption happened every time copied the mp3 files from my pc onto the 1 gb card, looked at the files using explorer - they were okay. then using pocketmusic to access the card for mp3 files. originally i blamed pocketmusic but they assured me their software was okay. but i deleted the program anyway. i now have gone back to the 512mb card and media player and everything is fine.
does anyone recommend another music player?

PocketMusic gave me some minor problems. I didn't get any corruption but then I didn't have an SD card at the time.

I use Pocket Player and find it much better: http://www.conduits.com/products/player/

Especially with the cTunes skin: http://www.conduits.com/products/player/skins.asp

Here's a thread I started about mp3 players a while back, there are plenty of suggestions for other programs in there too, probably best to continue the discussion in there: http://www.firstloox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2691

I'm still using Pocket Player and I find it does the job very well.


Can't get back to server assigned IP address after setting a static IP address

Problem:
Can't get back to server assigned IP address after setting a static IP address.
The error is typically discovered after trying to setup an ad-hoc network or possibly if WLAN router/access point is not sharing dynamic address abd thereby demands a fix IP address.

Description:
Having a static/fixed IP address and trying to go back to a dynamic/server assigned IP address, causes BIG problems. Setting a dynamic IP address is IMPOSSIBLE. Repeating tries to set a dynamic IP address results in either
1) a manually configured IP address set to 0.0.0.0
2) no change at all (the fix address is kept)

The following have been tested in order to try to change to a dynamic address:

* set to server-assigned address (it keeps on changing back to the fix address)

* removed and re-set the WEP key to my wireless routers

* disabled/enabled WEP on all units

* used PocketMechanic to release the network adapter

* tried using PocketWinc to get a new address (the wireless network neighbourhood (SSIDs) is visible. Sometimes the set IP is the fix address, sometimes it's 0.0.0.0, in none of the cases it is possible get a dynamic address)
(when its set to 0.0.0.0, one can see in PocketWinc that it is "Manually configured", so no wonder why it's not possible to get a dynamic address from any of the existing wireless routers)

* repetitive soft resets, results in 100% of the cases in getting back to the fix IP address


According to other people experiencing the very same problem, a hard reset does not solve the problem. I removed my battery and drained the backup battery. After that all settings were lost and problem was solved.

A really stupid bug, I'd say...

Problem:

Folder set under menu Settings->Tools->Options is reset to original value ("\My Documents") despite being explicitly set to another folder (in my case a folder on my SD card).


Description:
After setting the save folder to (in my case) a folder on my SD card named "_camera", the setting is kept for a while. After that period (and I don't really know what trigs this), the setting is reset back to the original setting. This error applies for both "Image" and "Video" settings.

If the user is not observing this and thinks that he/she can film/take an amount of pictures/films that is only limited by the space available on the external memory card, the risk is obvious that the internal memory is filled.

I really hate this bug since I set this folder SEVERAL times a day.


Device will not boot, but hang during "dolphin startup screen".


Problem:
Device will not boot, but hang during "dolphin startup screen".

Description:
If you need to reboot your device and either a reminder has not been "dismissed" or confirmed in any way, or a reminder is notified during the time of your reboot, the device will not boot, but hang during "dolphin startup screen".
Repetitive reboots will not help this and there are no messages on the screen. The only way to pass this is to reboot and during reboot, tap the screen. If you are lucky, a confirmation screen for the reminder is shown (with the "dolphin screen in the background). Confirm it REALLY fast and you will be able to boot the device to completion. If this is not successful, you have probably not tapped the screen fast enough. In that case, repeat the reboot with the actions mentioned above.


I have a similar bug: when trying to use SE_VGA, the required soft reset will hang during this "dolphin start". Surprisingly, this will happen only when soft reseting with SE_VGA: a standard soft reset via the button or with another software (such as Sprite Backup after a backup) will work.
Unfortunately, your solution did not work for me: no tap on the screen will do anything and the only way is to do a hard reset...

The worst is coming: I should it could come from another soft interfering with SE_VGA. Thus I get the opportunity to check it out while re-installing everything after a hard reset. Thus I did the following: install SE_VGA first then intall soft "A". Then go in true VGA mode. Then install soft "B" then VGA again... I thought I will crash the Loox after one install then find the guilty software... Surprisingly, it works ! No crash at all and nice VGA display...
But one or two days after, same bug !

I wrote to SE_VGA author to check if he knows some incompatibilty between his soft and another one (I would aim Pocket Plus...) but he assures that the soft is OK.

In a nutshell, I cannot use true VGA mode on my Loox.

PS: I also check other VGA soft & update of the ROM-> same issue.

When the Resco Keyboard Pro trial ends it brings up a dialog box on the dolphin screen, but before the backlight comes on. I had to shine a torch on the damned thing the first time just to see what was going on! Pressing Ok on the dialog box allows the Loox to carry on booting.

It may be something long those lines that's hapening to you, perhaps some trial software has expired and it's behaving badly.


RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/10/2005 12:14:16 PM # Q
Gee, Surur, are you really *that* eager to suckup to MS for those three stupid letters: MVP? THANK YOU for proving my point about you PPC weenies. NO ONE who uses a POS device would EVER do THAT on a PPC site.

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/10/2005 12:34:46 PM # Q
PPC weenie expose for those who missed it:

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/2325.html

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/10/2005 12:43:54 PM # Q
Hmmm... I just re-read the above. The piece has been "edited" since its original publication. When it first appeared, it named names, showed all their hidden relationships, and was scatching. It has been neutered. I guess he wants to get on their good side. Poor sod.

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/10/2005 12:47:18 PM # Q
Ah, well, it's time like this I wish there was an Edit function for Comments. He provides a supplemental list:

http://msmobiles.com/catalog/i.php/488.html

Personal attacks - dont have a real rebuttal?
Surur @ 4/10/2005 1:20:54 PM # Q
I paste a "warts and all" thread from firstloox.org , and all I hear is how I want to be an MVP? I have a real job you know. My only motivation is to show disillusioned Palm users (of which there appears to be plenty) that there is an alternative to waiting forever to catch up with the present, not to mention being on a platform that has a future.

How about addressing the issues, not the person. The issue is that a minority of people have some problems with their WM PDA's, but that there is very little consistent problems, and that most people are very happy with their Loox 720's. Many Palm users who have switched to the Loox 720 are also very with their choice. Just ask over at http://www.clieuk.co.uk/News_Archive_Store/palmnews-archive-10-1-2005.shtml

"Hopefully I will receive my Fujitsu Loox 720 today and after a bit of thought I realised why I am buying it. Neil already has one so it's just Mike to go:) Looking at the top end models available it's probably a good job Sony dropped out when they did and Palm appear to have a bit of catching up to do. Here's a quick comparison with the best specs in red-

Processor: Loox (520Mhz) Tungsten T5 (416Mhz) Clie TH55 (8-123Mhz)
RAM: Loox (128MB) Tungsten T5 (256MB) Clie TH55 (32MB)
Screen Resolution: Loox (480x640) Tungsten T5 (320x480) Clie TH55 (320x480)
Expansion: Loox (SD & CF) / Tungsten T5 (SD) / Clie TH55 (Memory Stick)
Connectivity: Loox (WiFi & BT) / Tungsten T5 (BT) / Clie TH55 (WiFi & BT)
Battery: Loox (very good) / Tungsten T5 (average) / Clie TH55 (amazing)
Camera: Loox (1.3MP flash) / Tungsten T5 (none) / Clie TH55 (0.3MP)

The Loox has some extras such as USB Host and a receiver for VoIP calls. The Clie performs wonderfully with audio and video and the T5 comes with lots of RAM (that's about it really). I really do want Palm to catch up and give us something to get excited about but the figures above speak for themselves. You may cry that the Palm OS is better than WindowsMobile- I used to think that as well until I used WM properly... Any comments to the forum please."

http://clieuk.co.uk/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.cgi?board=WMNews;action=display;num=1105371210;start=0#0

Surur

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/10/2005 3:12:26 PM # Q
>>>My only motivation is to show disillusioned Palm users (of which there appears to be plenty) that there is an alternative to waiting forever to catch up with the present, not to mention being on a platform that has a future.

My God, surur! The EGO you have! You mean to tell everyone here that if it wasn't for the Great And Good And Benevolent Surur Who Took Time Out From His Real Job -- that no one would have even HEARD of PPC?

Come on. WHAT needs a rebuttal? That?

And I've *owned* and *used* a PPC. And I found out about it without YOU telling me. Now how did THAT manage to happen?

Go away, troll.

Drama Queen Cane: Take a Valium.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/10/2005 3:33:05 PM # Q
Please.


You're becoming too "over the top" - even for you.





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Mike - Lets NOT get personal.
Surur @ 4/10/2005 4:53:11 PM # Q
Mike, I guess I'm not talking to you, but to all the people you are trying to scare away from pocketpc's with all your crash-happy talk.

The truth is vastly different for most people. Im just here to keep things straight.

Surur

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/10/2005 7:53:34 PM # Q
VoR: Given your shrill communiques, I'm sure all of us understand that you have a lot of experience with queens. Have you gotten rid of those blisters around your mouth yet?

Surur: People don't need *me* to "scare" them away from PPC. All they have to do is visit PPC Thoughts, PocketNow, or any of a bunch of other sites where the PPC weenies -- and duped converts from PalmOS -- freely discuss the crapiness of their machines. Word of mouth for PPC is the best antidote to sales!

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/11/2005 1:31:27 AM # Q
Mike, I've pretty much given up on the faint hope that you will grow a clue. You endlessly repeat lies just because you want to believe them, and you hope others will too. All you're doing is preempting any real discussion that could occur. You don't want to debate, you want to shout, bang your fist on the podium, and call your opponents unpatriotic.

Please do visit PocketPCThoughts, AximSite, PocketNow, or anywhere else you find PocketPC users. You'll find that the majority of PPC users are quite happy with how well their choice works for them. I see far more dissent and complaints here than I do over there. More anti-opposition rhetoric and propaganda, too. The sooner you and your ilk get that Windows is a viable platform that some people choose because it suits them best, the sooner we can have civil debates about handheld technology. Something that will happen no later than the year 2019, I'm sure.

Mike, some days I wish you, VoR, RhinoSteve, and Gekko would go out and settle your differences with a wrestling match in the middle of a minefield. It would make this place a lot more fun, not to mention family-friendly.

Surur, actually, I believe Microsoft does have their own Bluetooth stack for use in WM. However, it's up to the manufacturer to decide which stack to use.

Bluetooth stacks
Surur @ 4/11/2005 3:14:53 AM # Q
Surur, actually, I believe Microsoft does have their own Bluetooth stack for use in WM. However, it's up to the manufacturer to decide which stack to use.

True, and a better one is in the leaked magneto currently, but the MS stack has vastly less profiles than the broadcom one, e.g. not having the PAN profile. Also the latest broadcom profile has A2DP, which means you can use high quality bluetooth headphones to listen to music wirelessly, and use remote controls on your headphones. Unfortunately the broadcom stack is quite a memory hog (20Mb easily!) and is quite aggressive at trying to prevent piracy (quite unsuccessfully I might add) and people often get "license expired" pop-up, which is not really acceptable for a device driver. Hopefully a more advanced MS bluetooth stack will become available in the near future, or one of the competitor bluetooth stacks will give boradcom a proper run for their money.

Surur


RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/11/2005 10:28:31 AM # Q
Battlestar Galactica Commander and surur: Hey, when I (rarely) visit those PPC sites, I don't have the bad taste to post comments about PalmOS and proselytize for the platform. There is Something Very Wrong with you PPC weenies.

If you want to debate PPC vs PalmOS -- go do it on all the PPC weenie forums. When will you catch on that people here are looking for *PalmOS* info?

Pocketpc InfoCenter?
Surur @ 4/11/2005 10:42:59 AM # Q

Hey Mike, we are all handheld enthusiasts, arnt we? If enough ex-palm pocketpc users post here, we can always change the name. Or do you want this website to just die when Palmsource closes shop?

Surur

RE: Bradley's or Colligan's Folly?
mikecane @ 4/11/2005 1:19:18 PM # Q
Well now you bring up an interesting point! What if there IS a WM Treo? How will this site cover *that*?

PalmOS won't be going anywhere for a LOOOOONG time
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/11/2005 2:53:04 PM # Q
Hey Mike, we are all handheld enthusiasts, arnt we? If enough ex-palm pocketpc users post here, we can always change the name. Or do you want this website to just die when Palmsource closes shop?

People still use PSIONs and Newtons years after they went out of business, and those devices are still as useful in 2005 as they were the day they were first released. With over 30 million PalmOS PDAs having been sold over the past 8 years, I doubt the Palm community will be disappearing any time soon.





*************************************************************************************

Press release: CUPERTINO, California — February 11, 2005 — Apple® announced today that Steve Jobs will begin selling his own feces to Apple Cultists beginning March 1. Apple's new iPoo™ lineup is expected to easily surpass the iPod shuffle as the company's most popular product. Yes, Apple Cultists can already easily create their own iPoo™, but feces didn't seem cool until Jobs told them it was cool. Remember, kids: the ONLY cool feces is Jobs' highly individualistic, rebellious iPoo™ (coming soon in six different colors/flavors, including the red [hematochezia] and black [melena] U2 GI bleed model)

*************************************************************************************





******************************************************************
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

Reply to this comment

Does anyone else get a feeling of deja-vu?

Masamune @ 4/8/2005 5:32:13 AM # Q
It's just I could have sworn that these "photos from a London Hotel" are the very same photo's everyone was panicking over a fortnight ago...

RE: Does anyone else get a feeling of deja-vu?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 1:08:23 PM # Q
Nope. Different photos.

Reply to this comment

Don't worry.....

skccs @ 4/8/2005 12:23:17 PM # Q
...because hp seems to have already a perfect clone of the treo running windows on the way for sale this month:

http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3587.html

Why would you like to get a windows-treo then?

and

There are 3G Cell-Phones with even vga-screens on the way:

http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3700.html

Christian Stocker

RE: Don't worry.....
AdamaDBrown @ 4/8/2005 1:31:52 PM # Q
Given HP's record on producing phones, I think I'll wait a while to see if it explodes.

RE: Don't worry.....
InsGuy @ 4/8/2005 3:43:40 PM # Q
Given HP's record on producing phones, I think I'll wait a while to see if it explodes.

lol. Same here.

All good things...

Reply to this comment

I wonder what their new slogan will be?

jcalcazaren @ 4/8/2005 11:24:49 PM # Q
How about: "We finally give in, long live Microsoft!"

RE: I wonder what their new slogan will be?
Masamune @ 4/11/2005 7:15:55 AM # Q
How about this: "The new Windows Powered Treo 670 - a pane in the ass."

Reply to this comment

PPC LifeDrive?

Gekko @ 4/9/2005 9:31:23 AM # Q

Would that hurt PalmSource?



RE: PPC LifeDrive?
jkirvin @ 4/9/2005 3:35:06 PM # Q
It certainly wouldn't help, but again, PalmOne and PalmSource are different companies. PalmOne has no reason to make decisions counter to it's own profitability just because PalmSource might not like it. I'd like to see a WM version of the LifeDrive, personally. I think PalmOne could sell a lot more of the devices if they offered them for both platforms.

Reply to this comment

WM OS and software on pOS hardware?

ackmondual @ 4/9/2005 2:19:42 PM # Q
We were all hoping for pOS and software on a WM hardware... This certainly is a step in the complete opposite direction.

[signature0]the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse[/signature0]
[signature1]My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71 --> Tungsten T3[/signature1]
Reply to this comment

More rumor than fact on Palm Infocenter.

ggeoffre @ 4/9/2005 9:53:40 PM # Q
Things must be really slow in the handheld market lately. The Palm Infocenter home page appears to have more rumor than fact. Seems to me there is a race for a 'you heard it here first' shotgun approach to information. I wonder how much the Apple vs. Think Secret law suite has had on individuals 'leaking' facts to web sites like Palm Infocenter.
RE: More rumor than fact on Palm Infocenter.
mikecane @ 4/10/2005 3:17:28 PM # Q
You must be new here. Sometimes "rumor" = This Is What Is Coming But They Won't Admit It To Us Yet. Now, when it all comes to pass, where will you be?

RE: More rumor than fact on Palm Infocenter.
ggeoffre @ 4/10/2005 7:48:22 PM # Q
Not exactly new here (3/25/2003). Just an observation on the recent trend in new content on the web site (have not been active since setting up bluetooth networks was all the rage). Based on recent vendors pulling out of the PDA market here in the US, I seriously doubt that the shear volume of rumors is an indication of a market explosion coming up shortly. But I could be wrong.
RE: More rumor than fact on Palm Infocenter.
AdamaDBrown @ 4/11/2005 2:13:33 AM # Q
I wouldn't read too much into the pullouts awhile back. Sony and Toshiba haven't been committed to the market for awhile. Tapwave... though not out quite yet, didn't we all know it was going to end badly? The good news is that all the major players--P1, HP, and Dell--had significant sales increases last year.

That said, you're right that there are a lot of false rumors circulating. It's just that time of year. The last few PalmOne release cycles, the airwaves have been flooded with incorrect rumors, misleading rumors, half-true rumors, and rumors with a mountain of rock salt. A lot of wishful thinking going on, I guess. As a matter of balance, though, some of the current rumors are also correct.

RE: More rumor than fact on Palm Infocenter.
jayzee @ 4/11/2005 11:16:05 AM # Q
The only way I would even consider going back to a PPC is if the treo 670 ms or whatever it is called is going to have one handed navigation. IMO the best feature of the treo bar none.

One handed navigation IS important
Surur @ 4/11/2005 12:09:31 PM # Q

One handed navigation is important, and the new OS (WM2005 aka Mageneto) addresses this issue. It remains to be soon how successfull MS will be at this. The good news is that they are unifying the smartphone OS and the PocketPC Phone OS, so I guess this means anything you can do with a touch screen you should be able to do without, at least for the native software.

Whether it will be slick is another story, and only time will tell.

Surur

RE: More rumor than fact on Palm Infocenter.
mikecane @ 4/11/2005 1:21:23 PM # Q
I've seen the Magneto screenshots floating around. I wonder how those contextual bilateral menus are going to work out in a non-phone unit? I don't think OS elements for a phone should be grafted onto a non-phone -- but p1 obviously disagrees with this, having put the Treo's OKey elements onto the T5 (and other upcoming units). Yecch.

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