MobileInfocenter

Comments on: Palm Reports Q3 FY08 Results

Palm Inc. today reported that total revenue in the third quarter of fiscal year 2008, ended Feb. 29, was $312.1 million. Driven by strong demand for the Palm Centro, smartphone sell-through for the quarter reached a company record high, totaling 833,000 units, up 13 percent year over year. Smartphone revenue was $275.4 million.

"Centro is off to the strongest start of any smartphone in Palm's history," said Ed Colligan, Palm president and chief executive officer. "Centro's fun design, great price point and amazing array of easy-to-use features is expanding Palm's customer base with more than 70 percent of Centro buyers trading up from traditional cell phones."

Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (105 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Start a new Comment Down

Palm is a different company

adamsmark @ 3/20/2008 5:19:14 PM # Q
Those of us who lament over the demise of the Palm PDA must admit, Palm is succeeding in the smartphone market, at least to an extent. Wish them well, but not interested in the Centro.

"I believe in the atomic bomb."

Blogging at http://agabus.com">Agabus.com.

Palm V > Vx > Clie Peg T615C > T3 > Clie TH55 > T3 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p & T3 > Treo 700p & iPaq 210 (Windows-based PDAs are allowed at PalmInfocenter, right?)

RE: Palm is a different company
PacManFoo @ 3/20/2008 5:39:30 PM # Q
No interest here either but good luck to Palm on becoming king of the cheap phone segment.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22, UX50
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Palm is a different company
palmit @ 3/20/2008 6:01:52 PM # Q
If it wasn't for that "cheap phone" they would be worst off. It buys them time to get new stuff in order. I would be interested in pairing Centro like device with a possible new Foleo. I dont want super expensive smartphone, just some basic features in small form factor.

RE: Palm is a different company
PacManFoo @ 3/20/2008 10:50:34 PM # Q
Yes by 2010-2011 they will maybe, possibly, be better off then they are today. Of course they may not make it that long. Enjoy the kool-aid, I got tired of it long ago.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22, UX50
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Palm is a different company
roadwarrior2008 @ 3/24/2008 10:48:26 PM # Q
Palm sure is a different company...one which realized a long time ago that PDAs are dead. Unfortunately everyone else has caught up and some have even surpassed Palm in the Smartphone category. I finally made the switch from Palm OS to Windows Mobile this year because of Palm's inability to provide a high speed (HSDPA) GSM Palm smartphone.
RE: Palm is a different company
hkklife @ 3/24/2008 11:02:59 PM # Q
It's not Palm's inability, it's Access/PalmSource's inability. The inherent limitations of the Garnet OS prevent it from handling the multitasking required for UMTS/HSDPA or even EVDO Rev.1 functionality.

Are you still using a Windows Mobile-based Palm Treo or have you moved to another manufacturer entirely?



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

Reply to this comment

Link to full Q3 report

Poopie @ 3/20/2008 5:29:30 PM # Q
Reply to this comment

Commodity Hell

Gekko @ 3/20/2008 6:13:09 PM # Q

"You are headed for commodity hell if you don't have services." - Lou Gerstner

"Chasing revenue in a commodity business is really dumb." - Lou Gerstner

Reply to this comment

PDA Revenue (?!?)

buckeyetex315 @ 3/20/2008 7:06:54 PM # Q
Total Revenue = $312.1 million
Smartphone Revenue = $275.4 million
therefore:
PDA Revenue = $36.7 million Correct, or am I missing something?

Conservatively, that's $120 million per year in PDA revenue assuming unequal quarters. It's nearly $150 million assuming equal quarters.

Even taking the very conservative comparison of $120 million PDA revenue versus total yearly revenue of $1.2 billion, I don't understand how Palm can ignore 10% of their revenue stream.

I think it would be really interesting to see the net profit contributions of each segment - PDA vs. smartphone. I'm willing to bet that the PDA segment is a LOT more profitable.

Brent


Palm Vx -> Long wait -> Palm T|X

RE: PDA Revenue (?!?)
hkklife @ 3/20/2008 7:13:33 PM # Q
I don't understand it either but they CAN and they WILL.

Well, between you and me, I figured out how Palm's going to make this nasty little issue go away. They arejust going to EOL the remaining PDAs sometime within the next 3-4 months and they we won't have that matter to trouble us any longer. Take the PDA revenue right off the books and make everyone's life easier!



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PDA Revenue (?!?)
BaalthazaaR @ 3/20/2008 7:17:26 PM # Q
I'm willing to bet that the PDA segment is a LOT more profitable.

With $0.00 in development & quality assurance costs and nominal support costs given the age of the "current" PDAs out there, the profit would be skewed to showing greater profitablity than it would if they actually attempted to do something in the PDA segment.

RE: PDA Revenue (?!?)
Ryan @ 3/20/2008 7:23:09 PM # Q
You are correct, I just posted the breakdown here:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9627/palm-q3-fy08-conference-call-highlights/

Handheld revenue for the quarter was $36.7 million. 198,000 units were shipped for a 38% year over year decline. Handheld sell-through was 282k units down from 323k the previous quarter.

RE: PDA Revenue (?!?)
buckeyetex315 @ 3/20/2008 7:35:41 PM # Q
Thanks, at least I know I can still add and subtract! :-D

BaalthazaaR, I agree that the margins would be less if they actually DID something with their product lineup. But I still agree with many of the posters here that Ed Colligan is making the decline of PDA revenue a self-fulfilling prophecy. You can only sell an aging tech product for so long before it dies. I think there is a lot of pent-up demand not only for existing Palm PDA users but also for those who have abandoned PalmOS PDAs for other platforms.

It takes a LOT of Centro units to make up for $36 million in revenue...

I can't remember who posted and don't have time to really look it up, but I support the idea that Palm should come out with a PDA first instead of a phone on their "new" PalmOS to let everyone see how the new OS really works.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, here. I'll get me coat....

Brent


Palm Vx -> Long wait -> Palm T|X

RE: PDA Revenue (?!?)
hkklife @ 3/20/2008 7:45:09 PM # Q
Well, Palm kinda/sorta did that with OS5. The T|T launched in Oct '02 as the one and only Palm device to run OS 5.0. It still clung to some of the pre-OS5 tech (Graffiti 1, 16mb RAM limit) that was quickly eliminated. Palm worked all of the major bugs out, EOL'd the T|T after a pretty short shelf life, and quickly followed up with the Zire 71 & T|C in spring '03. Those models both shipped with OS 5.2 and made a number of improvements over the T|T's 5.0.


Palm's best strategy would be to consolidate the current 3 PDAs into 2 new models later this summer or early this fall. Have one run OS5.x for legacy apps/users and have the other debut Nova. Target it as a PMP/PDA/VOIP solution and let us poor sods be the paying beta testers. Then within a month after its arrival on store shelves, Palm'll have all of the bug reports and support feedback they need to ensure a painless, smooth Nova rollout on smartphones (or at least for a majorly comprehensive ROM fix for the first Nova smartphone).

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PDA Revenue (?!?)
BaalthazaaR @ 3/20/2008 7:58:56 PM # Q
@Brent
My point was that you can't just look at the profitability of the PDA segment as an argument that they need to put out a new device. Don't mistake that to say that there is no demand either. I'd love a new PDA, but the longer that Palm goes without releasing a new PDA, they're fulfilling their prophecy that the market is dead. There is just so long that people will go without giving up and finding something else. It is more likely that some of the people have given up and are buying smartphones since that is all you can get that is newer and in most cases more stable.

I venture to say that they are more afraid that their releasing a new PDA would bring down their non-windos smartphone sales.

Reply to this comment

My Post Was Removed

mopcodes @ 3/21/2008 7:35:45 PM # Q
Wow! My post got removed and I've seen worse in these threads.
I guess the site does not want to hear some of us are no longer spending $$$ in the Palm Depression.
RE: My Post Was Removed
mopcodes @ 3/21/2008 7:38:13 PM # Q
whoa! So much for the beta version of Firefox. I just found the post and a browser bug. weird.
is the moon full? :-( Sigh.

D. Martin
Former Amiga/Commodore Author/Writer/Reviewer
RE: My Post Was Removed
Ryan @ 3/21/2008 8:29:30 PM # Q
For the record, I didn't remove anything.

Are you testing out the new Firefox 3 beta?

Reply to this comment

PDAs are DEAD

roadwarrior2008 @ 3/24/2008 10:45:54 PM # Q
Come on, all you PDA guys ever do is whine and complain. Give up already. We are not going back to 2001 with basic PDAs. That market is dead, asides from a small handful of fanboys. Smartphones are today. All the major manufacturers make smartphones. Who makes PDAs today? I say Palm should cancel the few remaining PDAs now and quit wasting time and resources. I can't even tell you the last time I saw a PDA in a store. LOL I used PDAs from 2001 through 2003 and switched to smartphones and have never looked back.
RE: PDAs are DEAD
hkklife @ 3/24/2008 11:09:34 PM # Q
You appear to be an astroturfing member of Palm's R&D dept, trying to convince us that less is indeed more.

You also must be oblivious to the stunning success of the iPod Touch.

How can Palm be wasting time & resources when they haven't even LOOKED at a PDA-related update in nearly three years?

Go into any Best Buy, Office Max, or Staples and you'll still see plenty of PDAs in stock and ready to be sold. Best Buy was just touting the Tungsten E2 (itself a 3-year old model) in last week's printed ad.

And Treos (especially POS ones) make such p!ss poor phones that anyone who is a serious, ahem, "road warrior" will carry a dedicated cell phone anyway for mission-critical voice purposes.

So if Palm were to abandon TX production tomorrow, in what Treo/Centro would "resources" such as 320x480 LCDs, 128mb RAM modules, 802.11b radios and 3.5mm stereo headphone jacks go?

Also, we just established (thanks, Ryan!) here last week that those antiquated still contributed $36.7millioin USD to Palm's earnings last quarter. Wouldn't YOU like to have $36.7 by essentially shipping a product requiring zero support, development, or marketing $? I thought so!

So, yes, I KNOW Palm's not going to produce another PDA. But that doesn't mean that I and many others wouldn't purchase one if they DID.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PDAs are DEAD
abosco @ 3/24/2008 11:38:17 PM # Q
The PDA is dead because Palm decided it was dead. If the iPod Touch is any indication, there is still a screaming fanbase of buyers. It doesn't matter what Gekko or Palm say - the PDA still has a large market. The numbers don't lie.

This is coming from a smartphone user.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: PDAs are DEAD
adamsmark @ 3/25/2008 1:24:05 AM # Q
Considering the amount of use I'm getting from my HP iPaq 210, I'd have to object. PDAs aren't dead. Turn my iPaq into a cell phone (four-inch screen and everything) and you'd have a heck of a smartphone. For me, it really all comes down to the screen. I can't bear a small screen, no matter how smart the phone is. Consider that the "smartphone" with the biggest screen (the iPhone) is one of the most popular. Says a lot for PDAs.

"I believe in the atomic bomb."

Blogging at http://agabus.com">Agabus.com.

Palm V > Vx > Clie Peg T615C > T3 > Clie TH55 > T3 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p & T3 > Treo 700p & iPaq 210 (Windows-based PDAs are allowed at PalmInfocenter, right?)

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 9:52:09 AM # Q
Go into any Best Buy, Office Max, or Staples and you'll still see plenty of PDAs in stock and ready to be sold. Best Buy was just touting the Tungsten E2 (itself a 3-year old model) in last week's printed ad.

I think you just stumbled inadvertently on to the reason Palm isn't trying to sell PDAs: They're not selling. Why do you think there are still "plenty of PDAs in stock and ready to be sold"? They're not selling anymore, that's why.

As for the iPod Touch: That's marketed as a music/movie player, not a PDA. Take a look at how the Touch is being marketed:

http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/

With the exception of Internet access, there's nothing that makes the Touch a good PDA. And the way Apple is locking down some of the core functions, I don't see any sign that the SDK will change that. You can't even sync memos with the iPhone/Touch. And will there be access to the filesystem so that a decent file manager can be developed?

I think the way most people want to access their information has changed. Convergence seems to be winning out over optimized standalone functionality. To put it simply, is the TX a better PDA than the Centro? Probably. But most people would rather carry one thing in their pocket, rather than two, if the sacrifices aren't that severe in either function.



RE: PDAs are DEAD
BaalthazaaR @ 3/25/2008 10:13:39 AM # Q
Why do you think there are still "plenty of PDAs in stock and ready to be sold"? They're not selling anymore, that's why.

How about them not selling because everyone who would want a TX has already bought one in the last 3+ years? They'd buy one if it was an improvement over what they have. Or they would buy one as a replacement or even as a backup if the other one is starting to show it's age. I'm in no hurry to buy another one that is identical to what I have. But I may take the plunge if Palm announces that they're halting production. There are enough people in that scenario that bumped Palm's bottom line up by $36.7 million in one quarter as evident from their recent financials.

But most people would rather carry one thing in their pocket, rather than two, if the sacrifices aren't that severe in either function.

I used to think that, but the first time that one device fails leaving you with nothing makes you change your mind. I'd rather carry a PDA in addition to my cell phone than carry around a paper book as a backup for my contacts.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
hkklife @ 3/25/2008 11:11:38 AM # Q
I carry a Treo and a small dumbphone on a daily basis instead of my TX + dumbphone for three main reasons:

1. E-mail connectivity anywhere/everywhere. There's a huge dearth of wi-fi hotspots around where I live & where I work, so a smarthone is the only practical choice since I don't have GSM cell service. And my job pretty much necessitates having e-mail acess at any given time during the day. If my employer didn't pay the Treo's hefty service fee on Verizon I'd merrily go back to carrying my trusty TX.

2. The Treo, with an appropriate high-capacity battery installed, can lost longer during the day than a TX or T5 can.

3. There's more Treo-related "stuff" going on than Palm OS PDA "stuff", like it or not. So carrying the Treo gives me valuable insight/usage that I can turn into PIC reviews etc.

Honestly, #1 definitely the main reason. But I'd rather carry a Zire + a good dumbphone instead of having to rely on the lagging, resetting, signal dropping, flaky Bluetooth, non-voice dialing Treo as my primary means of communication. It astounds me how many people somehow manage to make do by using a clunky smartphone (especially a Palm OS one!) as their one and only telephone.



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 11:18:06 AM # Q
How about them not selling because everyone who would want a TX has already bought one in the last 3+ years? They'd buy one if it was an improvement over what they have. Or they would buy one as a replacement or even as a backup if the other one is starting to show it's age.


You've sidestepped the point of the original post. The point being argued was that somehow the fact that there are lots of PDAs in stock means that there's demand. Actually, the opposite is true. There's very little demand for those PDAs. You could argue that there would be demand for some as-of-yet unannounced improved PDA, but that's pretty heavy speculation. And just what would they add to it, if they did release a new one? They could support larger cards, of course (which is a complaint you could also have about the current crop of Palm smartphones) but I don't think there's a lot of other places to go with the PDA that haven't been traveled by either Palm or Windows (which is also concentrating on phones rather than PDAs at this point).

I used to think that, but the first time that one device fails leaving you with nothing makes you change your mind. I'd rather carry a PDA in addition to my cell phone than carry around a paper book as a backup for my contacts.

I understand that sentiment. It's why I still have my TX. The thing is, most people don't have the luxury of having both. If you didn't have a PDA already, which would you rather do, buy one device or two (remembering that it does you no good to buy it and keep it in your desk drawer - you have to carry both)?

The seeds of the plain vanilla PDA's destruction were planted many years ago. (Handspring, anyone?) Convergence does have its negative side (e.g., the possibility of the converged device flat-lining, as you noted), but there are also a lot of benefits (e.g., integrated Web lookup with contacts, integrated dialing, etc.). Phones aren't serious replacements for dedicated cameras (and probably never will be, because of the design limitations a phone puts on you), but as PDAs, I think they do reasonably well.

And I think that moving exclusively to smartphones is more in line with Palm's vision at this point. The Foleo really shows where Palm wants to take things: You carry the phone with your data, and use an add-on device for the screen, keyboard, and possibly storage of larger files. While I don't think the MacBook Air is much of a notebook, something of that type and form factor would be perfect as the next Foleo - especially with a solid state drive and access to the Internet through either a cell network or wifi.

There are some areas (screen size, entering in Graffiti) where the PDA is better than a phone. But I think that traveling light is winning out over those kinds of concerns. I think the iPhone is a demonstration of that. (Incidentally, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Apple discontinued the iPod entirely at some point, to focus on the iPhone exclusively).

RE: PDAs are DEAD
BaalthazaaR @ 3/25/2008 12:06:13 PM # Q
You've sidestepped the point of the original post. The point being argued was that somehow the fact that there are lots of PDAs in stock means that there's demand. Actually, the opposite is true. There's very little demand for those PDAs.

Actually I think that the stock of PDAs makes more of a statemnet on supply than on demand. The sales of the same stock would be more of an indication of demand. Even diminishing sales would be more indicative of market saturation of existing designs. However the stock of PDAs and the fact that Palm seems to be still manufacturing them (since they haven't announced the cessation of production) seems to indicate that Palm doesn't completely believe in its position that the PDA market is dead.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
hkklife @ 3/25/2008 12:36:22 PM # Q
I must respectively disagree with you. Think of the, oh, zillions of happy iPod customers who would not want to sign their lives away to a 2yr AT&T contract to get an iPhone. On top of that, there are the habitual iPod upgrade addicts, who buy a new device each year and/or carry around multiple iPods containing a different music library. And let's not forget the folks who have purchased oodles of iPods for their kids. Heck, I know one family that won't let their kids use their CC so the kiddies run to the store each week with their pocket money, buy a iTunes gift card, and run home and go hog wild downloading. Those same kids have absolutely no need for a cell phone at the moment-and certainly not one like the iphone.

Now, I can very easily see Apple dumping the iPod Classic (HD-based) in favor of and all flash-based iPod Touch/iPhone lineup. But dumping the regular iPod? Hell no! It makes for a tidy little side business just in case things ever go sour with the carriers. Kind of like, you know, *GIGGLE*, what Palm SHOULD have done (and wanted to do with the Fooleo)!

P.S. Speaking of giggles, where's Seldom Visitor these days? He's been awfully quiet the past few weeks!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

WAY-OT:RE: PDAs are DEAD
SeldomVisitor @ 3/25/2008 12:45:21 PM # Q
> ...P.S. Speaking of giggles, where's Seldom Visitor these days? He's
> been awfully quiet the past few weeks!

Nothing much to say - been on vacation/Spring Break (*) the last week+, still recovering, haven't read the earnings call transcript yet, have read posts here (I think I caught them all) but don't really see anything much to comment on with PALM - we know what they're not doing and won't do for another 3/4s year at least so it's kinda boring right now.

Only comment I've made here recently is "TVoR worked for BEOS!?"...

========

(*) Went to Disney World for the first time - had promised daughter we'd go there before her 10th birthday and, for no particularly good reason, decided to use the Spring Break time to do so. When I was her age (and younger) I wanted to go to Disneyland (no Disney World at the time!) but my family was much less than rich so I never made it there. Now about half a century later I have.

I am a Happy Camper.

[and I was totally surprised at the HUGE size of Disney World and its parks - haven't walked that much EVER in a day - over a week+ of days. Lost a pound of weight, too, over that time period so it was a win-win!

RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/25/2008 2:28:31 PM # Q
>>>But most people would rather carry one thing in their pocket, rather than two, if the sacrifices aren't that severe in either function.

Yeah. Like the woman I saw a few days ago with a shiny new Centro. Which she put away to listen to music from her *iPod Shuffle*.

Reality uncooperates again!

RE: PDAs are DEAD
BaalthazaaR @ 3/25/2008 2:32:29 PM # Q
I agree with you completely... However reality is in the eye of the observer. Even a nut job has a reality albeit a completely different reality than others in society.
RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 2:34:23 PM # Q
I must respectively disagree with you. Think of the, oh, zillions of happy iPod customers who would not want to sign their lives away to a 2yr AT&T contract to get an iPhone. On top of that, there are the habitual iPod upgrade addicts, who buy a new device each year and/or carry around multiple iPods containing a different music library. And let's not forget the folks who have purchased oodles of iPods for their kids. Heck, I know one family that won't let their kids use their CC so the kiddies run to the store each week with their pocket money, buy a iTunes gift card, and run home and go hog wild downloading. Those same kids have absolutely no need for a cell phone at the moment-and certainly not one like the iphone.

I heartily agree with you that kids have no need for cell phones. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the trend these days. The same parents who let their kids carry around $300 iPods apparently have no problem with the idea of their kids using cell phones, either. It's a sign of the times in which we live. Look at the aesthetic of the Centro itself. The color scheme of the AT&T model seems tailor-made for people not old enough for a learner's permit.

I'd also point you to the legions of people who did purchase the iPhone specifically because it is such a convergence device. Right now it's premature to talk about the death of the standalone iPod, because of the expense of the iPhone. But prices will come down. They always do. And you're only talking about $100 difference in the 16GB iPod vs. the Touch, anyway. That's not a lot of ground to cover.

And two-year contracts actually work in the iPhone's favor, in a sense: If the end of your contract is nigh, and you have the choice between carrying two items and carrying one, which are you going to choose? If you could get the same performance out of both functions that you'd get out of either separately, wouldn't you choose convergence? In the case of the iPhone, I don't think you really lose anything by choosing iPhone over iPod - with the exception, of course, of being tied to a contract, which you'd deal with with any cell phone contract. I would be fascinated to know how many people upgrade their iPods yearly, though. I can't imagine that number is that large. Why would it be?

Those people carrying around multiple iPods could keep their multiple iPods. There's no reason that would change. (It seems a little psychotic to me to have multiple iPods just to have multiple sets of songs, but that's neither here nor there.)

Finally, almost none of the arguments that apply to the iPod apply at all to PDAs. You don't pay a significant premium to go from a PDA and a dumbphone to a smartphone, people don't upgrade PDAs on a compulsive basis, and there's not the overwhelming demand for PDAs that there is for iPods.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/25/2008 2:43:47 PM # Q
>>>However reality is in the eye of the observer. Even a nut job has a reality albeit a completely different reality than others in society.

Nutjob? Where the hell do you live? What desolate plain with tumbling tumbleweeds do you park your ass and call home?

Come out to the frikkin CITY, kid, where you can observe LOTS of people going about their USUAL REAL-LIFE NON-GEEK BEHAVIOR. What I've just described with that Centro & iPod scenario is the NORM. I've seen it with Treos, I've seen it with Blackberries, I've seen it with Razrs, I've seen it with anything that's NOT an iPhone.

I've got a frikkin LIFEDRIVE with 4GBs available to me. I use a crappy $40 SD-based MP3 player to listen to music! And I use a **128MB** SD in it!

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 2:43:56 PM # Q
Yeah. Like the woman I saw a few days ago with a shiny new Centro. Which she put away to listen to music from her *iPod Shuffle*.

Reality uncooperates again!

You do realize that that situation is entirely different from the PDA/phone convergence scenario, don't you?

If she took out her TX while holding a shiny new Centro, then you'd have a point. But the comparison between a Centro and an iPod Shuffle is absurd. My statement was based on the concept that people will go for convergence devices if they don't sacrifice one function too much. On what possible planet are you not sacrificing anything if you're trying to use your Centro as an iPod (Shuffle, Touch, or otherwise)?

And it's quite possible that, but for the decision not to include a standard-sized headphone jack on the Centro, that she would have used it to play music. You can get a 4GB micro-SD card for less than you'd pay for an iPod Shuffle.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
BaalthazaaR @ 3/25/2008 2:45:39 PM # Q
people don't upgrade PDAs on a compulsive basis, and there's not the overwhelming demand for PDAs that there is for iPods.

Yeah exactly.... people who buy iPods are impulsive fadists, while people who buy PDAs are a more stable lot who buy out of necessity rather than a fashion statement. They will upgrade when there is a new compulsive set of features that they're looking for, unlike the iPod owners who march to the tune of Apple's fashion sense most of whom depend on their parents to buy them the iPods.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
BaalthazaaR @ 3/25/2008 2:56:54 PM # Q
Come out to the frikkin CITY, kid, where you can observe LOTS of people going about their USUAL REAL-LIFE NON-GEEK BEHAVIOR. What I've just described with that Centro & iPod scenario is the NORM. I've seen it with Treos, I've seen it with Blackberries, I've seen it with Razrs, I've seen it with anything that's NOT an iPhone.

Ya'll don't really believe that I'm Farmer Jon's young'un now, do ya?. I see a few PDAs and a couple of Treos in daily use. But mostly it is trending towards winmob smartphones and Blackberries. I've seen only two adults and herds of teens with iPods and those two adults use them only in the gym.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
hkklife @ 3/25/2008 3:21:23 PM # Q
I've got a 755p with a 4gb miniSDHC card in it and a 2gb card in my desk drawer. I've also got a 160gb iPod Classic (that I detest but that's another story entirely) chock full of high-bitrate music. I also have a cell phone with a 1gb microSD card in it with a hundred or so songs on it. All of the above devices have at least serious flaw when I just want to grab my music collection and hit the road.

Out of those 3 devices, it'd be the most convenient to use my Treo as a mp3 player since I usually take it with me wherever I go. But due to Palm's uttterly inexplicable inability to get a 3.5mm stereo headphone jack on any Treo or Centro, I don't even want to bother with the lame Palm 2-in-1 stereo headphones or a fragile 2.5mm->3.5mm headphone adapter. And I'd have to do A2DP or fiddle with a miniUSB to 3.5mm stereo adapter on the my Moto cell phone so that eliminates that possibility as well. The end result is that I end up making do without my music unless I am going on a trip and can justify hauling the iPod along with me. Believe it or not, I usually just end up tossing a battered old Sony CD walkman + a few CD-Rs of MP3s in my bag, as it's a lot easier to have one of those get stolen/lost/broken than it is an iPod.

It's funny, Palm likes to bill the Treo/Centro as a convergence device but due to several factors (no 3.5mm stereo headphone jack, no FrankenGarnet support for SDHC cards larger than 4gb) I keep geting that impression that Palm doesn't really want to try to even give anything related to multimedia more than a very half-hearted effort. I've had this feeling, oh, since the release of the m500. All of that storage (relatively speaking) available with the SD/MMC slot on the m500 and no audio support other than bleeps & bloops! And look at the debacle of the T|T's launch in 2002: Palm didn't have RealPlayer ready to go and then there was the horrible audio-out quality and THEN the weak volume problem that carried over to the T2. Palm dragged their feet on color screens first, then on external storage, then on large amounts of RAM, then on integrated wireless etc etc.

Had Palm aggressively pushed their devices as "MP3 PDAs" or "Multimedia Organizers" or "PMP Cell Phone Companions" or what you want to call it starting in 2001/2002, they could have captured a LOT of the teenybopper-type market. Sony was YEARS ahead of the rest of the industry with the release of the N710C in '01. The only remote chance Palm ever had of getting anything accomplished was with the stunningly high value Zire 31 in '04 which still came too late to stop the iPod juggernaut.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/25/2008 4:10:33 PM # Q
>>>You do realize that that situation is entirely different from the PDA/phone convergence scenario, don't you?

The Sin Of Too-Fast Reading.

God, someone close the italics tag!!!

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 4:12:13 PM # Q
It's funny, Palm likes to bill the Treo/Centro as a convergence device but due to several factors (no 3.5mm stereo headphone jack, no FrankenGarnet support for SDHC cards larger than 4gb) I keep geting that impression that Palm doesn't really want to try to even give anything related to multimedia more than a very half-hearted effort.

I think there's no question that Palm was late to the game with multimedia. That's pretty much a no-brainer, at this point. But I think it's a little bit unfair to say the Centro or Treo isn't a good convergence device because it's not a multimedia powerhouse. That's like saying the iPhone isn't a good convergence device because it's not a good PDA. I think the truth is that Apple and Palm are coming at the convergence concept from different angles entirely. The Palm (pick your version) was never meant to be a device to carry around all your music and media. It was meant first and foremost to be an information storehouse, starting with businesspeople and working its way down to the masses. The media applications only started getting attention in the late 90's/early 00's when everyone and his brother started carrying a PDA. The iPod started with the masses and is working its way up to the businesspeople. They reflect different priorities altogether.

The Centro isn't meant for people who want to replace their iPod and cell phone. It's meant for people who want to replace their PDA and cell phone, or who want to get PDA functionality for the first time. Those are very different sets of customers.



RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 4:16:04 PM # Q
The Sin Of Too-Fast Reading.

God, someone close the italics tag!!!

My bad. Sorry about that. Hopefully that closed it. :)

RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/25/2008 4:37:30 PM # Q
>>>The Palm (pick your version) was never meant to be a device to carry around all your music and media. It was meant first and foremost to be an information storehouse, starting with businesspeople and working its way down to the masses.

Well, duh.

People wanted multimedia because it was something small to tote around.

Now that it's been shown - at least on Palm devices - to be more trouble than it's (usually) worth, people like me carp for a new PDA because I want the *information storehouse* part again. With Classic Graffiti, dammit. (Stop right there: Putting G1 on my LifeDrive = 50% recognition errors. OK? Next!)

RE: PDAs are DEAD
Gekko @ 3/25/2008 4:41:53 PM # Q

There's no reason to buy/manage/charge/carry/sync/fight/fumble with 2+ devices when ONE Smartphone can do it all.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/25/2008 5:06:31 PM # Q
>>>There's no reason to buy/manage/charge/carry/sync/fight/fumble with 2+ devices when ONE Smartphone can do it all.

Yeah, I keep forgetting that. June will bring all those iPhone apps and I can put the LifeDrive away for good.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
Gekko @ 3/25/2008 5:25:09 PM # Q

why wait until june? aren't a bunch out already?

RE: PDAs are DEAD
Gekko @ 3/25/2008 5:37:02 PM # Q

interesting -

From Palm Treo to iPhone

http://appleanswers.com/node/14726



RE: PDAs are DEAD
hkklife @ 3/25/2008 5:40:15 PM # Q
Waitaminute! I never SAID that the iPod Touch OR the iPhone were particularly good convergence devices!

The iPhone/iPod Touch are lousy PDAs (IMO). Spectacular web browsers, photo viewers, video viewers, and music machines, yes. But lousy for hardcore PIM/data-entry functions that POS still blows everyone else out of the water with. And I'm still kinda/sorta underwhelmed by the iPhone from a "phone" standpoint, but that's another story.

POS devices are phenomenal PIM/multifunction machines that are hobbled by the usual OS limitations and hardware quirks/flaws/stinginess. They also make lousy telephones but that's also another story.

Right now, sad to say, the higher-end BB & WM devices are probably doing the best job of actually checking off all of the boxes that make for a compelling converged devices (wi-fi, GPS etc). The new Sony Ericsson Xperia X1, for certain, looks to finally be THE smartphone that can replace a high-end dedicated PDA for most users. Of course, from a usability standpoint, WinMob still has a loooong way to go IMO.

My point about Palm missing the boat in regards to multimedia is that despite their flaws, the Treo/Centro are TANTALIZINGLY close to being at least semi-decent multimedia machines. The software side of things (PTunes Deuxe, TCPMP/CorePlayer, mOcean, Kinoma etc) is definitely up to snuff. If you can live with 4gb max card capacities, Palm really only needs to shoehorn the stoneage tech that is a stereo 3.5mm headphone jack into their devices to at least nail the audio side of things. Is that really too much to ask? It's not like I am even asking for A2DP standard or a 2.5" VGA screen. Just a little headphone jack w/ a decent amp (no buzz/humming, please) would make a world of difference. If RIM can do it then so can Palm!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 6:56:53 PM # Q
Now that it's been shown - at least on Palm devices - to be more trouble than it's (usually) worth, people like me carp for a new PDA because I want the *information storehouse* part again. With Classic Graffiti, dammit. (Stop right there: Putting G1 on my LifeDrive = 50% recognition errors. OK? Next!)

I'm a little confused. Where did the information storehouse part go, exactly? My Centro holds information just as well as the Palm does (although, admittedly, the capacity without a card is less). And honestly, once you get used to it, entering in information with the keyboard, while it's not as easy as a bigger keyboard, is still easier than with Graffiti (either 1 or 2). For one thing, it's usually faster. For another, you don't have to pull out the stylus to write. I had Jot on my TX, so I'm able to use Graffiti on the Centro, but usually if I'm writing something now I'll just use the keyboard. I can't imagine trying to write a large amount of text w/ Graffiti.

I will, however, admit to missing the Notepad application. Where the hell did that go? Sure, it was a minor app, but it's not the kind of thing I want to code from scratch, either.

Palms still hold more information out of the box than just about anything else out there, and what little you can't do out of the box, you can add an app like eWallet. The thing you really give up, of course, is screen real estate. Browsing with Opera on the TX is a whole different ballgame than browsing on the Centro. (Blazer is just horrid anywhere it runs...).

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 7:07:33 PM # Q
Waitaminute! I never SAID that the iPod Touch OR the iPhone were particularly good convergence devices!

Sorry if I misunderstood. I was responding mainly to this:

Had Palm aggressively pushed their devices as "MP3 PDAs" or "Multimedia Organizers" or "PMP Cell Phone Companions" or what you want to call it starting in 2001/2002, they could have captured a LOT of the teenybopper-type market.

It sounded like you were saying that by emphasizing the multimedia capabilities, Apple was on the right track.

I don't think that either the Centro/Treo or the iPhone are bad convergence devices. They just seem to be converging on different points. I personally think the Centro/Treo is a better convergence device, only because it seems to be (from what I can tell from about a month of use) a pretty good phone. (I want my Bluetooh voice dialing, but aside from that, I mean...). The iPhone, from most of what I've heard, is a mediocre phone. The lack of voice dialing and tactile keys are both deal-breakers, as far as I'm concerned. And the reception with iPhones is apparently not stellar, either.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/25/2008 7:21:20 PM # Q
>>>The iPhone/iPod Touch are lousy PDAs (IMO).

Wait til June. You'll change your (i)Tune.

Gekko: I'm not adventurous. I won't jailbreak.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
twrock @ 3/26/2008 12:14:25 AM # Q
(Looks like I'm late to this party, but...)
There are some areas (screen size, entering in Graffiti) where the PDA is better than a phone. But I think that traveling light is winning out over those kinds of concerns. I think the iPhone is a demonstration of that.

I can't figure this one out. Are we defining PDA as "large screen" and smartphone as "small screen"? Obviously the iPhone and a dozen other smartphones says no to that. Do only PDA's have Graffiti entry? Obviously not that either. What am I missing here? Seems like you are arguing against yourself, so I must be misreading that.

In what way couldn't the iPhone (large screen and touch entry) be a good PDA as well as a good phone? Is it just because Apple chose not to put the software into it to make it a good PDA? But it isn't that they couldn't have done so. A number of us hoped that the SDK would really open it up so that third-party developers could fill the gaps, but I'm less convinced that is going to happen now that we know what Apple means by "open".
(http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,62039219,00.htm)

Obviously Palm already had the ability to make a good "PDA-centric" smartphone years ago, but for some incomprehensible reason they chose to stick with only one form factor and never delivered the converged device a number of us were waiting for. (Long before the iPhone was announced we were telling Palm we wanted that form factor; IMO, Apple proved us right.) There is a wide market out there, and people have a very wide variety of perceived needs. No one smartphone is going to satisfy everyone.

Regarding the lady with a Centro and an iPod Shuffle, it' simple. She already owned the Shuffle and had her favorite tracks all loaded and was used to using that device. Why should she change her habit when it would mean having to figure out how to move all of that music over to the Centro? What a hassle. Besides, the Shuffle is so tiny as to be perceived as no additional "baggage", and she can't even use her standard headphones on the Centro!




"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/26/2008 10:56:50 PM # Q
I can't figure this one out. Are we defining PDA as "large screen" and smartphone as "small screen"? Obviously the iPhone and a dozen other smartphones says no to that. Do only PDA's have Graffiti entry? Obviously not that either. What am I missing here? Seems like you are arguing against yourself, so I must be misreading that.

Actually, yes, I was defining PDA as large screen and smartphone as small. Here's my rationale: The iPhone isn't a smartphone (at least, not yet) and probably never will be, if the restrictions Apple put on the SDK remain. Apple seems to have no interest in letting people tinker with the internals in the way you can with a Palm, and their target market is people who want a phone and an MP3 player, not a phone and a PDA. It looks like the farthest they want to take the iPhone's PDA capabilities is letting you sync with Outlook. That's fine for the basics, but we all know how much further you can go with apps that have access to the calendar and clock, etc.

Smartphones like the BlackJack and the BlackBerry pearl have screens that aren't [i]that[/i] much bigger than the Centro, and pale in comparison to something like a TX.

As far as Graffiti goes, I didn't say you [i]couldn't[/i] enter in Graffiti on a cell phone, but it's certainly easier on a larger screen. And as far as I know, newer Palm phones (and I'm thinking especially of the Centro) don't come with Graffiti. I had to put Jot on mine (from my TX) before I had that ability.

What you say about the Shuffle makes sense. I wasn't thinking about how small it already is. Any MP3 player you can clip on your shirt doesn't qualify as baggage.



RE: PDAs are DEAD
twrock @ 3/27/2008 4:37:08 AM # Q
The iPhone isn't a smartphone ....

Don't let Steve catch you saying that. According to him, the iPhone is the only real smartphone ever made! :)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/27/2008 11:27:51 AM # Q

Don't let Steve catch you saying that. According to him, the iPhone is the only real smartphone ever made! :)

I'd say the iPhone is certainly a step up from a typical feature phone, but a smartphone? Nope. One example of where it falls short: You can view Word attachments in e-mail, but I don't see any facility for either a) viewing them outside of e-mail, or b) creating/editing them.

It's probably the smartest feature phone ever, but not a smartphone.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
akalefty @ 3/27/2008 12:33:09 PM # Q
I'd say the iPhone is certainly a step up from a typical feature phone...

While it certainly offers the best user experience for a low-end feature phone ever, in terms of the things it actually does out of the box, it's really less capable than most phones which carriers give away for free.

As you say, you can view attachments to email (documents and photographs, etc.), but there doesn't seem to be any way to save those attachments separately from the message they're attached to, or do anything else with them. You can't use a photo you've been mailed, or one you've taken with the iPhone's own camera, as wallpaper; you can't add your own ring tones to the ones provided by Apple; you have to jailbreak your iPhone and add a new plug-in to download and save files from within Safari.

There's a pretty lengthy list of things you can't do with the iPhone that are absolutely commonplace on pretty much every low-end feature phone around. Steve doesn't think you need to do any of that stuff, and if you think otherwise, tough, you're mistaken.

No doubt this situation will improve somewhat when the SDK goes live in June, but with Apple sending out "don't call us, we'll call you" notes to the vast majority of developers (after strongly implying that things would be more open, leaving developers in a position where they can't even put their own program on their own iPhone), as well as the other (numerous) limitations of the iPhone SDK, the improvement may be more limited than folks are hoping. We'll see.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
buckeyetex315 @ 3/27/2008 3:13:33 PM # Q
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 4:12:13 PM wrote:
The Centro isn't meant for people who want to replace their iPod and cell phone. It's meant for people who want to replace their PDA and cell phone, or who want to get PDA functionality for the first time. Those are very different sets of customers.

I don't think that the Centro is targeted to those customers who want 1) PDA functionality for the first time or 2) to replace a PDA. The design and pricing is targeted to the late teens or early twenties crowd. Tried to find the quote about the phone and keyboard colors, but couldn't locate it. My apologies.

Palm: The Little Engine That Couldn't

Since Palm can't be expected to come out with a "wow factor" technodazzle product like the iPhone, it only has the price card to play. And that's what the Centro is all about. At $99, after rebates and a wireless service commitment, the Centro is supposed to win over those basic cellphone consumers that would like to upgrade to a smartphone, but can't afford a high-end product like Palm's own Treo 755. But the low-end of the market has also attracted other bigger players like Research In Motion and Samsung.


Gekko @ 3/20/2008 6:13:09 PM # wrote:

"You are headed for commodity hell if you don't have services." - Lou Gerstner
"Chasing revenue in a commodity business is really dumb." - Lou Gerstner

PALM is dead! Colligan killed it!

Brent


Palm Vx -> Long wait -> Palm T|X

RE: PDAs are DEAD
buckeyetex315 @ 3/27/2008 3:24:04 PM # Q
Oops - forgot the URL:

http://community.investopedia.com/news/IA/2008/Palm_The_Little_Engine_That_Couldnt.aspx?partner=YahooSA

Palm: The Little Engine That Couldn't


Since Palm can't be expected to come out with a "wow factor" technodazzle product like the iPhone, it only has the price card to play. And that's what the Centro is all about. At $99, after rebates and a wireless service commitment, the Centro is supposed to win over those basic cellphone consumers that would like to upgrade to a smartphone, but can't afford a high-end product like Palm's own Treo 755. But the low-end of the market has also attracted other bigger players like Research In Motion and Samsung.

Brent


Palm Vx -> Long wait -> Palm T|X

RE: PDAs are DEAD
hkklife @ 3/27/2008 3:58:46 PM # Q
The Centro is for a PDA user looking to upgrade? Absolute rubbish! Well, unless you are a Z22 or T|E user looking for a converged device. But anyone with, say, a T|T3 onwards will find any POS smartphone a definite step backwards in nearly every aspect unless having a removable battery and anywhere e-mail/web connectivity is paramount.

Let's just say I wanted to replace my TX with a smartphone. I'd have more luck getting the following "must-have" features (larger than 320x320 LCD, 128mb+ RAM, wi-fi) in a competing WinMob device or, sob, even the iPhone than I am on any of Palm's warmed-over smartphone offerings (regardless of OS).



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/27/2008 11:30:19 PM # Q
The Centro is for a PDA user looking to upgrade? Absolute rubbish! Well, unless you are a Z22 or T|E user looking for a converged device. But anyone with, say, a T|T3 onwards will find any POS smartphone a definite step backwards in nearly every aspect unless having a removable battery and anywhere e-mail/web connectivity is paramount.

That's not necessarily so. For example, a Centro gives you these benefits, out of the box:

1) The aforementioned anywhere web/e-mail
2) Smaller size (admittedly a mixed blessing - see below)
3) One device for 3 functions (PDA, Web, Phone) unlike the iPhone, that can only deliver on two functions - at best.
4) The aforementioned removable battery
5) Camera (with video capabilities)
6) Vibrating alarms
7) LED indicator for charging
8) A keyboard built-in

#6 and #7 may not seem like that much of a big deal, but if you remember the older Palms, you remember how handy both the LED and the vibrating alarms were.

So what's the trade-off?

1) Small screen
2) Lack of Graffiti (unless you have Jot installed)
3) Lack of Note Pad (Where the hell did that go??)
4) Lack of access to some accessories (e.g, the cradle you used for your old PDA).
5) Need for a data plan (which can get expensive

Now, granted, for some people the screen will be a deal-breaker, outweighing all the other concerns. But that's not necessarily the majority of PDA users.

Let's just say I wanted to replace my TX with a smartphone. I'd have more luck getting the following "must-have" features (larger than 320x320 LCD, 128mb+ RAM, wi-fi) in a competing WinMob device or, sob, even the iPhone than I am on any of Palm's warmed-over smartphone offerings (regardless of OS).

As I said, if a bigger screen is a must-have, a Palm phone wouldn't be for you. That's a given. But going from a Palm to a WinMob device is potentially more painful than it's worth, depending on how much software you have to replace, and how many accessories you have to leave behind. (That was one of my concerns when I was considering what to buy.)

Now, let's talk wi-fi. I've got a TX, and I have to say I've found wi-fi mostly useless. It's great for browsing around the house, and it's convenient to sync over the network, but wi-fi coverage is meager once you get out of major metropolitan areas (e.g., NYC). And even at work, where they did have wi-fi, if they've got PKI tokens for security, you're screwed. I have yet to see a PDA you could plug a PKI token in to. (I know there's technically a way to get around that, but good luck getting your IT department to let you in without that token.) Now obviously, a cell phone wouldn't fare any better in a corporate environment with a PKI token structure, but with cell access, at least you've got a lot more places you can have access.

If the screen size is the most important thing to you, and you need PDA functions, obviously a PDA is the best choice. The memory issue may also be important, but you can always add a card, which somewhat mitigates that.

But if you can live with a smaller screen, a Palm smartphone has a lot of advantages as an upgrade.

As far as the iPhone goes, it's not a PDA, and it's not (as others have said) much of a smartphone, either. In the cool factor it might be a step up, but not in a lot of other (I'd argue, more important) ways.



Reply to this comment

PDAs are DEAD

roadwarrior2008 @ 3/25/2008 9:14:35 PM # Q
Come to think of it, here in my city I have probably only seen 2 people over the course of the past year or longer who carried PDAs. Everyone seems to have a Blackberry. The 2nd-most I noticed are Treos then the various HTC devices. I honestly don't even see PDAs in the stores around here...Best Buy, Futureshop, etc. There are plenty of refurbished ones at the small computer shops.

I have never needed to carry an iPod for music as the Treo serves this purpose just fine. I have several different headsets and earphones which are 2.5mm.

I have given up on Palm in general for reasons I posted earlier (lack of high speed GSM). I still own my Treos, but have jumped ship to HTC and Motorola.

What a tiny but vocal minority we have on this site. PDA fanboys extraordinaire. LOL


RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/25/2008 10:02:40 PM # Q
PDA fanboys my a**. I need the PIMs. Palm's PIMs are still the best.

Well, at least til June... hear that, Colligan? Pick up the phone, man, your DOOM is calling.

BTW, I haven't seen anyone carry a PDA in ages, either. I used to see them, too.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
Gekko @ 3/25/2008 10:02:46 PM # Q

ditch your landline, snail mail paper bills, CRT TVs, and your PDA. it's 2008.

let go of the past.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
Gekko @ 3/25/2008 10:05:01 PM # Q

iTouch is not a PDA.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
Gekko @ 3/25/2008 10:10:18 PM # Q

>I need the PIMs. Palm's PIMs are still the best.


you need the PIMs???

as far as I can tell your entire enterprise is more than a solitary man with a messy apartment which may or may not contain a chicken.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
bhartman34 @ 3/25/2008 10:32:13 PM # Q
The iPod Touch (or iPhone, for that matter) isn't a PDA, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be a PDA, with the right SDK and software. For whatever reason, though, it doesn't look like Apple is willing to open up the SDK enough to make it a PDA. There's too many functions you won't be able to access with the SDK. That doesn't mean Apple won't change its mind on the issue (if I remember right, they weren't even going to allow 3rd party apps on the phone at all), but it certainly means they're going to have to change course. And given the current target audience, I don't know how likely that is.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
twrock @ 3/26/2008 12:38:19 AM # Q
(Ah, it looks like you at least partially answered my questions over here in this thread. I didn't see this until after I posted.)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: PDAs are DEAD
Foo Fighter @ 3/26/2008 12:18:26 PM # Q
"Pick up the phone, man, your DOOM is calling."

Calling? We're well beyond that point now. Doom is already in Ed's office, sitting in a chair, smoking a cigarette, casually looking out the window, watching dissatisfied customers leave the building.

----------------
http://www.theiphoneblog.com

RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/26/2008 1:37:12 PM # Q
>>>as far as I can tell your entire enterprise is more than a solitary man with a messy apartment which may or may not contain a chicken.

I upgraded the chicken a while ago.

RE: PDAs are DEAD
abosco @ 3/26/2008 3:24:17 PM # Q
And with Darin's help, we'll get that chicken.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a
RE: PDAs are DEAD
mikecane @ 3/26/2008 4:58:29 PM # Q
Calling PETA on yo!

Reply to this comment

PCs are dead

T_W @ 3/26/2008 12:04:59 AM # Q
I read the Gartner reports.

PCs are dead in the Internet age. People don't want the complexity of a modern PC and with all apps going web, they only need a sold-state Network Computer (NC) running an embedded OS and a browser.

Plus, with Microsoft pulling out of the PC OS and apps business and throwing its weight behind NCs and online apps, the writing is on the wall. Look at how sales have dropped since MS hasn't shipped a new version of Windows or Office in 5 years!

So quit bitching about the fact you can't get a PC anymore and just buy an NC guys.

RE: PCs are dead
Foo Fighter @ 3/26/2008 9:03:03 PM # Q
PCs are dead in the Internet age. People don't want the complexity of a modern PC and with all apps going web, they only need a sold-state Network Computer (NC) running an embedded OS and a browser.

Oh Sweet Saint Patrick's prick. Not this topic again. What makes the argument that consumers don't want PCs anymore - desiring basic non-PCs running embedded operating systems - so ironic is that consumers don't want them. More ironic still that people who post these claims do so from a PC. Go figure.

This is proven time and again. Technology's great cemeteries are lined with mass graves, filled with the bodies of network computers and internet devices like the 3Com Audrey, Sony's eVilla, and more recently Palm's Foleo. Epic FAIL.

The reality is people are sheep. They know only ONE thing - Windows. To the unwashed masses, Windows IS the computer - IS the internet. Getting them to switch to a Mac is hard enough. Show the average consumer a Foleo - their immediate reaction will be "Oh, a tiny laptop. How cute". As soon as they are encounter the OS they are deer caught in the headlines of an oncoming 18 wheeler.

Consumer: "What is that?"

You: It's Linux.

Consumer: "What the hell is Linux?"

You: It's alternative to Windows?

Consumer: "Why would I want an alternative to Windows? Why can't I just have Windows?"

You: Because this OS is leaner and has less overhead.

Consumers: "What about all my software? Can I run that on this thing"

You: Nope! You don't need any of that. This platform offers all different software that works just like your Windows software."

Consumer: "I don't want different software. I want MY software."


Palm bought into this inept philosophy and it cost them. The market rejected Foleo like a foreign body before the product even shipped. Ed Colligan's own words illustrated just how out of touch this product was with the market... "You wouldn't carry this device and a laptop. This is for situations when you don't need a laptop." BING! That's why this product was stillborn, Ed. The thing is, life is unpredictable. How can I predict when I won't need my laptop during my daily life. What if I find myself in need of my Windows/Mac applications? Do I run back home and get my MacBook? People aren't interested in crippled PlaySchool platforms like PalmOS or Foleo's embedded Linux thingy OS. They want a REAL OS... they want REAL apps.

And this is precisely why MacBook Air is selling like hotcakes, despite criticism. It's the real McCoy - a PC that doesn't force users into a strangely foreign (and crippled) software environment. If you need Microsoft Office, you get Microsoft Office - not some bizarre half-baked facsimile like DataViz. Had Palm offered Foleo running XP, like the Asus ePC, it might have been homerun. Instead they arrogantly assumed they had reinvented the category, and were promptly, and publicly humiliated for it.

Now, getting back to why PCs are "dead", or rather selling poorly, is simply that people hold on to their machines much longer. Contrary to myth, PCs do sell and people do in fact use them.

----------------
http://www.theiphoneblog.com

RE: PCs are dead
Gekko @ 3/26/2008 9:15:06 PM # Q

FF - i thought the OP was being sarcastic and trying to compare the old predictions of death of PCs to the current predictions of death of PDAs?

RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/26/2008 10:42:41 PM # Q
What makes the argument that consumers don't want PCs anymore - desiring basic non-PCs running embedded operating systems - so ironic is that consumers don't want them.

Well, they wouldn't want a PC either if no new models had been released in the last 8 years.

RE: PCs are dead
buckeyetex315 @ 3/27/2008 2:12:13 PM # Q
@ T_W:


Look at how sales have dropped since MS hasn't shipped a new version of Windows or Office in 5 years!

What are you talking about? Microsoft has had Windows Vista out for nearly a year. Office 2007 has been out longer than that. The fact that Microsoft is trying to force users to inferior and screwed up Vista and Office 2007 is what is depressing sales.

Vista is a mess with known driver problems (STILL) and other issues that have corporate IT departments pushing out their deployment as far as they can.

Microsoft really screwed up with Office 2007. They totally changed the user interface. Have you used it? I have and it stinks. They wiped out the menus and replaced them with "ribbons". No or very few keyboard shortcuts. You HAVE to use the mouse for lots of things you didn't previously.

I've had Office 2007 for over a month at work and it is so bad that I'm just about ready to ask my IT department to roll me back to Office 2003.

My 82 year old mother needs a new computer (she's still using Windows 98 God love her!) and I'm pushing her to buy a new one with Windows XP on it before the major retailers stop selling them in June. I'll have a hard enough time being her PC support person from 1200 miles away with XP let alone trying to help her with an OS (Vista) that I'm not familiar with.

@ Foo Fighter:
I kind of agree that people are sheep, but I think alot of the problem is just plain inertia also. They have something that is familiar and they want to stick with it. If some major manufacturers like Dell, Sony, HP, etc. would make a big push with a Linux box with really good basic office-like apps, I think Microsoft's screw up with Vista and Office 2007 really would give them a good shot at establishing a competitive market against Microsoft. But the boxes have to be at least as usable by non-techies (like my mother), otherwise it won't work.

Brent


Palm Vx -> Long wait -> Palm T|X

RE: PCs are dead
roadwarrior2008 @ 3/28/2008 2:01:05 PM # Q
"Gekko @ 3/26/2008 9:15:06 PM #

FF - i thought the OP was being sarcastic and trying to compare the old predictions of death of PCs to the current predictions of death of PDAs?"

PREDICTIONS of the death of PDAs? Too late...PDAs have already died. Nobody is making them anymore. PIM functions? Whoopie doo...any cellphone can perform the basic PIM functions.

You fanboys crying for Palm to make T3s are making me laugh hysterically. I suppose you guys also watch black n white TVs and use those huge remote control cable boxes with the cord attached to the set top? You still ride a horse and buggy to work? Go complain to Ford and Toyota...."make a new buggy...small wheel cars are not what we want..."

LOL....I am through with this lame forum (quite like I have been with PDAs since 2004). Adios!

Does anybody want a used Handspring Visor or a T3? Not hard to find....check the landfill.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

RE: PCs are dead
PacManFoo @ 3/28/2008 2:24:24 PM # Q
Well don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

It's amazing how the fact that some people prefer a PDA irritates so many people. The wheel was invented long ago but you know what, I still use it and I still use my PDA as well. Go to www.newtontalk.net and see how many people STILL use their Newtons. I just hope there is the same kind of community available for the PalmOS once Ed scoops the final shovel of dirt on it. So go ahead and mock us because your more trendy. The PDA just happens to be the device that's perfect for me.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22, UX50
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/28/2008 6:34:20 PM # Q
PIM functions? Whoopie doo...any cellphone can perform the basic PIM functions.

Not well with a postage-stamp screen. "Any cellphone" also can't do crap for multimedia and has crappy wifi and browsing support.

You fanboys crying for Palm to make T3s are making me laugh hysterically. I suppose you guys also watch black n white TVs and use those huge remote control cable boxes with the cord attached to the set top? You still ride a horse and buggy to work? Go complain to Ford and Toyota...."make a new buggy...small wheel cars are not what we want..."

You are an F'ing moron.

And no, I don't have a black and white TV. I traded it for a mobile TV with a 2 inch square screen. Who needs screen real estate anyways?

Also, my new mobile TV came with a 2 year contract with the cable company. I won't be switching to FIOS anytime soon.

RE: PCs are dead
mikecane @ 3/28/2008 7:31:06 PM # Q
>>>Not well with a postage-stamp screen. "Any cellphone" also can't do crap for multimedia and has crappy wifi and browsing support.

>>>And no, I don't have a black and white TV. I traded it for a mobile TV with a 2 inch square screen. Who needs screen real estate anyways?

A bit contradictory there, isn't he?

RE: PCs are dead
Gekko @ 3/28/2008 8:03:28 PM # Q

sarcasm.

RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/28/2008 8:38:49 PM # Q
sarcasm.

Man people don't seem to get it do they?

No I don't use an NC, no I don't have a mobile TV with a 2 year TV contract, no Microsoft has shipped a Windows and Office update within the last 8 years.

As to the PDA being dead, a business has to provide enhancements to their products to get people to keep using them. Look at all the stuff Apple does for the iPod line... and these are just dime-a-dozen MP3 players, yet they can demand a high premium because they continue to deliver features, build hype and give their customers a reason to buy the next version.

Would more people puy a Palm Tungsten X with a 640x480 screen, good media playback, wifi, VPN, VOIP, a real browser, multi-protocol IM, facebook support, Youtube support, Flickr support, Internet calendaring, enough storage to act as a portable HD for all of your MP3s, photos, and documents and a bluetooth solution that allows net access from your cell phone???

Well I sure would. I think some of the iPod buyers would as well.

RE: PCs are dead
abosco @ 3/28/2008 9:01:30 PM # Q
This thread makes me realize how moronic some people are. I could tell the sarcasm FROM THE OBVIOUSLY INCORRECT FACTS THAT DREW PARALLELS TO THE PDA INDUSTRY.

I agree with you entirely. I wouldn't want a PC if one hadn't been made in the past six years. Palm has too many business executives telling them what they (wrongly) think, and not enough engineers to innovate.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: PCs are dead
Foo Fighter @ 3/29/2008 11:04:21 AM # Q
This argument is as dead as the PDA itself. My gastrointestinal track contorts into a gordian knot whenever someone posts "If Palm just adds more RAM and an OLED display to the TX it would fly off the shelves!"

No it wouldn't! The only shelves PDAs will ever fly off is the clearance rack. Consumers DO NOT WANT PDAs, and it has nothing do with Palm's failure to introduce new models in this category. I don't know what further calamitous evidence is needed to convince the old timers here, but in time realization will sink in I suppose.

You guys just DO NOT realize that a paradigm shift has taken place. As Apple has just shown the industry, the era of pip-squeak PlaySchool embedded mobile operating systems is over. PalmOS, RIM, Symbian, even Windows Mobile will become dinosaurs. Advances in hardware have made desktop-class operating systems (and applications) on mobile hardware a reality. In the traditional tablet form factor that we associate as PDAs, UMPCs are slowly filling that role. At some point those devices will become as small a TX or Nokia 800. For pocket-sized devices, the smartphone offers far more advantages, and will become increasingly more powerful. The iPhone puts OSX in the palm of your hand.

We don't need PDAs or PDA operating system any longer... it's just another proprietary software platform that forces users to learn a different environment, and poses challenges in getting personal data out. I cringe at the thought of locking my data, even something as trivial as a simple shopping list, in an archaic Palm app when I can simply input it to a cloud-based service, accessible anywhere on any device. Six years ago the standard method for viewing new content on a mobile device was AvantGo. Then mobile web access on smartphones made that obsolete. Today, Apple is making the mobile internet obsolete by bringing a desktop-class web experience to handhelds.

Evolution. Move on, or get left behind.

With a desktop-class OS like OSX on iPhone, there is no middleware interpretation, HotSyncing, or data conversion taking place. I don't need special shareware to export my iPhone calendar into iCal or Entourage. I don't need special desktop software that converts my handheld's data into something my Mac will understand. The same OS that runs on my desktop powers my phone as well.

This is precisely why the industry (including Palm) is scrambling behind Linux. It offers a desktop-class foundation that developers can build upon. Unfortunately it also happens to be a tower of Babel. Palm has made yet another fatal mistake by going it alone rather than joining Google's Android alliance. When Google unveils its smartphone sometime this year, Palm is as good dead. No one will give a shit about Palm, its Treos, or its Linux-derived OS.

Bottom line: if PalmOS, with it's dated computing model that locks your data inside a crippled proprietary software environment using converters, syncing, middleware, etc. to move and extract it, is the way for you... then have at it. But I hope you enjoy living in a bygone era.

----------------
http://www.theiphoneblog.com

RE: PCs are dead
hkklife @ 3/29/2008 11:39:41 AM # Q
It's the POS PIMs that still matter, Ken. NOTHING else but the PIMs (and some legacy software, of course)!



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PCs are dead
abosco @ 3/29/2008 11:40:01 AM # Q
Foo, did I mention that I probably bought an iPhone before you did? I was probably three ahead of you in line. Trust me, I know what this device is capable of. Tooting my own horn, Palmsource titled me "Software Expert" and I wrote an article about web browsers. Now I own an iPhone because Safari is the killer app.

My Palm has been left uncharged in my drawer for the past year. For the record, even though that Clie's battery is shot, it still does some awesome things, like the universal remote feature. Sony was way ahead of its time with its products.

I'm not suggesting that Palm's product line and offerings were remotely attractive. They were boring, rehashed models that I didn't even follow when they were brand new. But just because Palm can't make a good PDA doesn't mean that PDA's are dead. As much as some of you will reject it, the iPod Touch is a PDA. It's an iPhone without the phone, and people have been eating it up. I completely agree with you in saying that there is a shift, and that people expect desktop-class performance out of handheld-size computers. Apple is offering that with two models, and plenty more to come, it seems. This all points to me that the market is there. Palm's failure as a business doesn't mean that an entire market segment is deleted. People still want desktop-class features in a handheld-size device, and a large portion of them don't want it to make phone calls or be tied to a contract.

Advances in hardware have made desktop-class operating systems (and applications) on mobile hardware a reality. In the traditional tablet form factor that we associate as PDAs, UMPCs are slowly filling that role. At some point those devices will become as small a TX or Nokia 800.

Foo, if you want to emphasize a point about segments and market acceptance, introducing UMPCs into your argument should be the lowest thing on your list.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: PCs are dead
PacManFoo @ 3/29/2008 11:40:11 AM # Q
This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen Foo Fighter post. I hope this was all sarcasm because if not I think you've lost it. Let me see, I can put a text file, or work doc, or PDF file on my Palm's SD card and read it just fine. How do I do that with a iPhone? Email or SYNC. Text files are just so darn proprietary though. I nearly never sync my TX with my computer, I have no need to. I just exchange data on the SD card. I believe the iPhone/Touch are much more dependent on syncing are they not.

Consumers DO NOT WANT PDAs? This one does, as do many who read this board. One thing I don't want is a Smartphone, hope you enjoy being locked into contracts.

As for all those iPhone apps. At least wait till they actually exist before making the comment.

Guess I will be left behind since the device I have the most use for will no longer be made.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22, UX50
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: PCs are dead
akalefty @ 3/29/2008 1:25:44 PM # Q
I'd say that foofighter is actually correct, and that the folks who are giving him grief don't represent anything like an actual "market" for PDAs: a handful of afficionados posting on a message board doesn't make a market.

If there were actually pent-up demand for high-end consumer PDAs, I'd have to imagine that some company would be making, and successfully marketing, them. That doesn't seem to be the case. We'd be happy to write up a license for Garnet allowing some company to do so, if such a company existed; I'm sure Microsoft feels the same way.

So why aren't any companies making 'em? It's certainly not as though Palm's the only company capable of doing so...

(By the way, it's absolutely simple to get a smartphone without getting locked into a carrier contract: buy an unlocked phone-no carrier subsidy there, of course-and a pay-as-you-go SIM card.)

RE: PCs are dead
mikecane @ 3/29/2008 1:54:21 PM # Q
>>>the iPod line... and these are just dime-a-dozen MP3 players

Well, you've just left the realm of sensibility right there.

Next!

RE: PCs are dead
Foo Fighter @ 3/29/2008 3:48:39 PM # Q
Foo, did I mention that I probably bought an iPhone before you did? I was probably three ahead of you in line. Trust me, I know what this device is capable of. Tooting my own horn, Palmsource titled me "Software Expert" and I wrote an article about web browsers. Now I own an iPhone because Safari is the killer app.

No offense, but what does any of that have to do with the price of rice noodles in Taipei? I stood sixth in line at my local AT&T on June 29, 07. What's your point?

As for horn tooting - I am a tech writer for Macnn.com /Electronista.com and now contributing writer for Wired's Cult of Mac. So what?

My Palm has been left uncharged in my drawer for the past year. For the record, even though that Clie's battery is shot, it still does some awesome things, like the universal remote feature. Sony was way ahead of its time with its products.

No argument there, but since we are speaking in past tense here, again I ask what relevance this has in this discussion?

[snip] They (Palm's product line) were boring, rehashed models that I didn't even follow when they were brand new. But just because Palm can't make a good PDA doesn't mean that PDA's are dead.

Yes it does. Even if Palm did refresh its PDA line they still wouldn't sell because there is no longer a market for these products - or to be more precise; the market that exists isn't sustainable, and is shrinking still. Consumers aren't interested in these devices anymore. Whether you choose to believe that or not is entirely up to you. Handhelds still serve a role in vertical markets. But as a consumer product the PDA doesn't fit in.

It all comes down to a simple business equation: Where there is demand, there is a market. Yes YOU want a PDA - but there aren't enough of YOU out there to keep the PDA market alive.

There is a very apparent disconnect between enthusiasts here and the broader market. You're making the mistake of assuming everyone else has the same desire as you. If you want a Palm TX2, then so do millions of other consumers, right? Wrong. You're a small niche segment of legacy users that continues shrinking each year.

That said, I have to confess I half wish Palm would launch a whole slew of new handheld devices if only to settle the argument once and for all. Or at least so I can watch all the "Well I'll be damned.. people really don't want these things." commentary as reality finally sets in.

Finally, let's be honest here, really. Ask yourself - if Palm did introduce a LifeDrive 2 or TX whatever... would you really want YET ANOTHER device running Garnet? The same obsolete software, the same antiquated user experience? I sure as hell wouldn't. Not even if Palm upped the ante with VGA screens, more memory, OLED display, or *insert feature here*. It's still lipstick on a pig - new cloths on the same mannequin.

As I said before, the age of proprietary mobile platforms is over. If I am to carry a "mobile computer" in my pocket, it's going to be the genuine article, not a half-based imitationware.

C'est la Vie

----------------
http://www.theiphoneblog.com

RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/29/2008 4:44:14 PM # Q
Dude, you are all over the map:

Yes it does. Even if Palm did refresh its PDA line they still wouldn't sell because there is no longer a market for these products

So how long until Apple pulls the iPod Touch off the market? It's not a phone, thus there is no demand for it.


It all comes down to a simple business equation: Where there is demand, there is a market.

Demand must be stimulated and can be manufactured. Yes, there is no demand for a 5 year old product. That doesn't mean the demand is no longer there.

If you want a Palm TX2, then so do millions of other consumers, right? Wrong. You're a small niche segment of legacy users that continues shrinking each year.

So the iPod touch gets pulled of the market when? A couple of months from now? What is it other than a Palm TX2 with iTunes Store support?


would you really want YET ANOTHER device running Garnet? The same obsolete software, the same antiquated user experience? I sure as hell wouldn't.

God no... what does that have to do with the conversation? By the way, Palm's hip new smartphones use the same OS as their decrepit old PDAs. What does the fact that Palm can't engineer there way out of a paper bag have to with the claim by some market research firms that people won't my a mobile computing device unless it is tethered to a cell phone contract?

If I am to carry a "mobile computer" in my pocket, it's going to be the genuine article, not a half-based imitationware.

Well apparently if you are going to carry a "mobile computer" in your pocket, it will have to be a cell phone, since the Handspring guys took a Gartner research report paid for by Symbian and decided to base the future of Palm on it.

RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/29/2008 4:50:26 PM # Q
(By the way, it's absolutely simple to get a smartphone without getting locked into a carrier contract: buy an unlocked phone-no carrier subsidy there, of course-and a pay-as-you-go SIM card.)

Where's the Wifi support? How do I get CDMA support?

Where's the 320x480 screen? How thick is it? Does it have a standard head phone jack? Does it have a 4G model? Can I do push email without a data plan?


RE: PCs are dead
PacManFoo @ 3/29/2008 5:58:22 PM # Q
Not to mention the fact that the iPhone/Touch are extremely dependent on having a computer to sync to. Yes this is real progress. Heck, don't you have to have an iTunes account before you can even get the things to work? Can you do any programming right on your iPhone/Touch? No? huh I thought this thing was more advanced. At least you can create Word/Excel documents on it right? What? You can't? Can you at least copy and paste into a note? Oh you're freakin' kiddn' me.

Yes these new devices are just killer foo fighter. Where do I give up all my productivity to get one.


PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22, UX50
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: PCs are dead
akalefty @ 3/29/2008 6:42:30 PM # Q
Where's the Wifi support? How do I get CDMA support?

My Nokia E65 and N95 do VoIP perfectly well over any WiFi access point that's available to me. What are you asking...?

As far as CDMA phones go, if you mean US CDMA frequencies, you'll have to talk to Verizon. They're opening up their network to unlocked devices that meet minimal requirement, they say.

Where's the 320x480 screen? How thick is it? Does it have a standard head phone jack?

That would obviously depend on the specific unlocked phone you buy. Both the specific features mentioned are available on one phone or another. You probably need a WinMob 6 phone of some kind for the really big screen (the HTC Advantage has a VGA display), but thin phones and phones with 3.5mm jacks aren't really uncommon (like on the Nokia N95, although the bigger jack makes for greater thickness...)

Does it have a 4G model?

What? Does anybody...? What exactly are you talking about...?

Can I do push email without a data plan?

No, but why would you expect to? You can't get a pay-as-you-go data plan...?

News to me. You don't get a very good price rate, but you could probably shop around. And you could always use WiFi for your data connection, subject to being in reach of a usable access point.

RE: PCs are dead
Foo Fighter @ 3/29/2008 7:44:03 PM # Q
So how long until Apple pulls the iPod Touch off the market? It's not a phone, thus there is no demand for it.

Your aim was off-the-mark in that comparison, Ivanhoe. You missed the bulls-eye by a barn's broadside. iPod Touch is a media player, not a PDA. It doesn't even belong in the same category with Palm devices. Consumers who buy it would otherwise buy an Nano or Classic, were it not available. To them it's a fancy iPod, not a mobile computer. The user is holding a mobile computer in their hands without knowing it - which illustrates the genius of Apple's design: transparent technology. iPhone/iPod Touch is not some geeky ugly operating system like Windows Mobile or PalmOS, that forces the user to decipher intricate menus or learn through trial and error (mostly the latter) how to perform basic functions.

That's not to say there isn't an audience of users who buy it for the cellular-castrated iPhone that it is, but by and large consumers buy it just as they would any other iPod or Zune.

Now, back to the topic at hand (excuse the pun), PDAs... As I said in my previous post, there's a disconnect between you and the typical user. Consumer don't want to carry a PDA. They see it as third device, after their smartphone and iPod. The phone now performs the roles once served by PDAs (for better or worse), so what is the convincing argument to own that third device? Large screen? iPod (via Touch) now does that.

It amuses me that guys act as though I'm making some outlandish, far reaching, predictions. Realistically I don't even have to defend my argument. I need only to point to any market study that back my points, all of which show bottoming PDA sales. If anything you guys are the ones making with the crazy assertions. Where's your data proving that pent up demand exists, or that market resurgence is just around the corner - as you seem to imply? I'm all ears.

God no... what does that have to do with the conversation?

Now you've lost me. Just to be clear... you are bitching about the fact Palm has not refreshed its PDA line in years? And they need to do so immediately in order to save the category, right? And considering that Garnet is the only in-house operating available at this moment (Nova, Pinto, El Camino won't ship until '09), what else do you expect from Palm??? Were they to ship new PDAs running Windows Mobile instead, you'd all be bitching about that, so what exactly do you expect Palm to do? As far as I can see it is a lose/lose proposition no matter what Palm does.

Yes these new devices are just killer foo fighter. Where do I give up all my productivity to get one.

You obviously have lower standards in "productivity" tools than I. My productivity tool is a real mobile computer running OSX and or Windows; a MacBook Pro to be specific - with a large screen and full sized keyboard. I don't consider a PalmOS device to be a serious productivity tool any more than I consider an iPod nano as replacement for my home audio system.

----------------
http://www.theiphoneblog.com

RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/29/2008 8:55:24 PM # Q
Does it have a 4G model?

What? Does anybody...? What exactly are you talking about...?

4 Gigabytes of internal storage.

Can I do push email without a data plan?

No, but why would you expect to? You can't get a pay-as-you-go data plan...?

You say I can have a perfectly good wifi connection. Why would I even buy a data plan? I might not even buy voice plan.

RE: PCs are dead
akalefty @ 3/29/2008 9:17:23 PM # Q
4 Gigabytes of internal storage.

Oh. I thought you meant "4G" as opposed to "3G", as in cellular telephony technologies. Nokia's got several phones with twice that much internal storage, a full 8GB internally; beyond that, most phones will take a mini- or micro-SD card which could give you that much. All depends on what you want out of life.

You say I can have a perfectly good wifi connection. Why would I even buy a data plan? I might not even buy voice plan.

That's certainly your privilege, but you won't be able to do anything much with the device if you're out of range on an access point, incoming or outgoing. On the other hand, I've found a ton of use for my Bluetooth-enabled phone as a modem for my laptop when neither WiFi nor a hard connection was available.

My point was, however, that there's no necessary relationship between buying the (unlocked) smart phone that best meets your needs and getting into a contract with a specific carrier (except for. You won't get a subsidy on the hardware of course, and it sounds like you don't want it, but that can't be unexpected.


RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/30/2008 11:46:11 AM # Q
Nokia's got several phones with twice that much internal storage, a full 8GB internally;

The only Nokia device I am aware which seems like it would be a usable replacement for a PDA is the N810. Are there any others with large screens, good storage, good media support and an open development platform?


My point was, however, that there's no necessary relationship between buying the (unlocked) smart phone that best meets your needs and getting into a contract with a specific carrier (except for. You won't get a subsidy on the hardware of course, and it sounds like you don't want it, but that can't be unexpected.

My point is that a smartphone is a confluence of compromises that make it a poor substitute for a standalone dedicate computing device.

RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/30/2008 11:48:25 AM # Q
So how long until Apple pulls the iPod Touch off the market? It's not a phone, thus there is no demand for it.

Your aim was off-the-mark in that comparison, Ivanhoe. You missed the bulls-eye by a barn's broadside. iPod Touch is a media player, not a PDA. It doesn't even belong in the same category with Palm devices.

So as opposed to a touch screen based mobile computer that can do calendering, email, web, note taking, games and media playback, we have a a touch screen based mobile computer that can do calendering, email, web, note taking, games and media playback.

Oh sure... I can see the difference.

RE: PCs are dead
akalefty @ 3/30/2008 12:14:25 PM # Q
The only Nokia device I am aware which seems like it would be a usable replacement for a PDA is the N810.

The 810 probably comes closest to what you're looking for, from the sound of things. An OpenMoko Freerunner, whenever they become available would be a possibility, but I couldn't really recommend one unless you want a device you're going to need to be hacking on...

My point is that a smartphone is a confluence of compromises that make it a poor substitute for a standalone dedicate computing device.

Oh, every device you could possibly buy, PDA, smart phone or whatever, is a "confluence of compromises" in some way or other. If you're going to wait for something without compromises, you'd better resign yourself to waiting a while.


RE: PCs are dead
PacManFoo @ 3/30/2008 2:24:57 PM # Q
You obviously have lower standards in "productivity" tools than I. My productivity tool is a real mobile computer running OSX and or Windows; a MacBook Pro to be specific - with a large screen and full sized keyboard. I don't consider a PalmOS device to be a serious productivity tool any more than I consider an iPod nano as replacement for my home audio system.

So you carry a MacBook Pro strapped to your belt huh. So much for a single device.

The TX with a wireless keyboard can be very productive when a laptop is out of the question. But that'd be below your "standards" I guess.


PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22, UX50
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: PCs are dead
abosco @ 3/30/2008 9:20:28 PM # Q
If Palm created a T|X2, it would suck. I don't want that to come out. I wanted Palm to come out with the iPod Touch. Now that Apple is pursuing both smartphones and PDA's, who gives a shit about Palm?

The iPod Touch is a PDA whether you care to admit it or not. It's a user-friendly device with easy access to data and the web, as well as a great multimedia machine. What else do PDA's have to do? I'm not understanding this logic:

PDA's are dead! There is no market for them anymore!
What about the iPod Touch? Isn't it selling exceptionally well?
That doesn't count! It's just a glorified iPod!

??????? Seriously? Is it starting to make sense that the PDA still lives on, but Palm just didn't know how to get it right, and Apple does?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: PCs are dead
Foo Fighter @ 3/31/2008 2:45:43 PM # Q
If Palm created a T|X2, it would suck. I don't want that to come out. I wanted Palm to come out with the iPod Touch.

You, PacManFoo, and T_W are apparently smoking the same Aboriginal tobacco. How exactly do you expect Palm to deliver this given the fact they currently have no Operating System remotely as advanced as what you demand? Nova won't arrive for another year. So that leaves us with Windows Mobile or Garnet; Arsenic and old lace.

You and I apparently define "innovation" differently. My definition is a product that redefines a category or truly offers unique value. Yours is apparently cloning someone else's experience. And since you already have the product you want, from Apple, why would you desire a repackaged facsimile from Palm? Seems rather odd.

With respect, it seems as though you guys are just bitching and waiving your fists in the air, all for naught. I find myself in the odd position of having to defend Palm. You are all asking the impossible. They don't have the software to give you the kind of innovation and user experience you want. Garnet is obsolete... you don't want another device running that.... you don't want Windows Mobile. Nova is still too long in development to appear on hardware. So again I ask, WTF do you expect them to do? I don't understand this "I want it NOW!" mentality.

If someone else's product offers what you seek, buy it and move along as most have done already. I don't get these nostalgic laments.

----------------
http://www.theiphoneblog.com

RE: PCs are dead
BaalthazaaR @ 3/31/2008 3:50:36 PM # Q
You forgot "Colligan Resign!!!!"
RE: PCs are dead
T_W @ 3/31/2008 4:05:46 PM # Q
I don't understand this "I want it NOW!" mentality.

Actually, I think "You can have it within the next year" paired with a "You can have this incremental improvement until then" would get it done.

As of right now due to the "PDA's are dead" sheep mentality, Palm's answer is "You can never have it". Thats a damn shame from the company that invented and defined the market.

No, PDA's aren't dead. The same use cases are still there and for many of them, a smartphone is not an ideal solution.


RE: PCs are dead
hkklife @ 3/31/2008 4:50:37 PM # Q
I, for one, would be content with the following device as a stopgap TX2 keeping in mind all of the usual Garnet limitations:

-Same TX formfactor but in solid black with improved build quality and a LED & integrated microphone added to the design
-1800mAh (minimum) internal battery. This is the 2nd most crucial point for me.
-400+ mhz CPU
-128mb RAM, 2-4gb internal flash volume w/ DriveMode
-Large DBHeap/cache
-BT 1.2 (from the Centro-Palm's (barely) best FrankenGarnet BT implementation yet
-3.5mm stereo headphone jack w/ better quality socket/amp/hardware
-Bright, white 320x3480 LCD from a consistent supplier (Sony?)
-Fullsize SDHC slot w/ one final hack to Garnet to work around the <4gb file volume & 32-bit addressing limitation
-Graffiti 1 standard. Or, G2 standard with a legit, supported, Xerox-licensed G1 plugin available for download for $10-$20. This is a biggie.
-802.11g + WPA if possible. If not, then 802.11b from the TX.
-Huge standard software bundle (DTG 10, PTunes Deluxe, Bejeweled 2) ala Centro
-No more intentional crippling for CDMA dumbphone BT DUN to try to bolster Treo sales. Have this thing work with all regular handsets (CDMA + GSM) for BT DUN and do whatever it takes to ensure it works with all of the popular handsets released over the next 2-3 years. With the carriers finally budging on their data plan pricing and coming up with all-you-can-eat pricing plans, now's the time to for Palm to kickstart the "mobile phone companion" trend. This would be my #1 concern, as doing this would likely get a lot of frustrated smartphone (especially Treo/Centro) owners happily back to two separate devices. The pairing/connection process MUST be fast, easy, smooth, and painless or Palm will end up with egg on their face in typical Palm fashion.
-Athena connector as a final parting gift to the the legacy owners
-$299 (MAXIMUM) retail price. Cradle in the box would be great but we can all live without it.

Palm could then release a version of this thing running Nova and sold at retail or even just on palm.com as a sort of "retail beta" to make sure the OS is ready for prime-time on their smartphones. Furture versions could be released with, say , a VGA or better LCD, VOIP functionality, WiMax etc etc. I still maintain that it's critical for Palm to keep some kind of a presence in the traditional retail, non-carrier retail channels, especially as long as they have such a small, static, underwhelming lineup of smartphones.

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon 755p

RE: PCs are dead
PacManFoo @ 3/31/2008 5:18:23 PM # Q
What "I want it NOW! mentality"? I wanted it a YEAR and a Half ago. The PDA isn't dead it has just evolved and Palm could have been on the forefront but chose to kill it since they couldn't keep up. Steve Jobs has never liked PDA's and yet even he sees a market for the Touch. Notice how he had to add functionality because it was in demand. The same functionality people are use to in their PDA's. For the Palm/PPC user this added functionality still isn't enough but it still proves that people want these types of capabilities. I don't know how many people told me when the iPhone was announced that they'd love to have this device minus the phone. I still believe the TX to be superior to the Touch in most ways with the exception of the web browser of course. If Palm had updated their browser to work more like Piscal Browser, fixed their hardware audio issues, increased onboard memory, and come out with better looking device styles the PDA would have evolved with them as well.

Now we get to buy a device for our music/videos, one for our ebook reading, one for our phone/PIM, and one for our documents. Yea, aren't we just advancing. By the way, you better tell HP to stop making new PDA's. If it were not for the fact that I can't stand the OS I would have one myself.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm TX (Number 2)
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22, UX50
Casio-EM500
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

Reply to this comment
Start a New Comment Thread Top

Account

Register Register | Login Log in
user:
pass: