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Comments on: Settlement Over Defective Palm m Series Handhelds

palmOne has reached a proposed settlement over a class action lawsuit involving the m100, m105 and m125 handhelds. The lawsuit stated the PDAs may be defective in that they sometimes lose data during the process of replacing batteries even when the user follows Palm's recommended procedure.
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Wow this took a while

abosco @ 6/6/2005 3:10:52 PM # Q
I was mad about this problem.

That was three years ago. It was a pain making sure I didn't have any new data before I changed the batteries. Not sure if it warranted a class action lawsuit, but it sure was annoying. God knows how much those damn ambulance chasers are being paid for this.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637

RE: Wow this took a while
ocspub @ 6/6/2005 3:39:22 PM # Q
> God knows how much those damn ambulance chasers
> are being paid for this.

IANAL, but if -- as I take it from your post -- it was a real problem affecting many users of these devices, and PalmOne couldn't be bothered to replace/fix those devices under warranty terms, then I hope they have now learned from this and write off the lawyer fees under "education". Or would you prefer that companies get away with shipping defective devices?

Oliver


Visit www.tapland.com for Zodiac news and discussion.

RE: Wow this took a while
legodude522 @ 6/6/2005 3:46:24 PM # Q
I posted about this last month on the forums. Slashdot was slow. All the emails were sent out on May 19. Revenge of the Palm Users!

RE: Wow this took a while
scoT1753 @ 6/6/2005 4:38:53 PM # Q
I received my snail-mail notification about this last week.
See http://www.taylorsettlement.com/

RE: Wow this took a while
rcartwright @ 6/6/2005 5:20:48 PM # Q
Looks like the going rate on e-bay is $6.00 for a m125. Of course what are they going to replace it with, a Zire 31?

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
complain now... be heard 3 years later!!
ackmondual @ 6/6/2005 6:33:06 PM # Q
This'll be an interesting trend. Has it been 3 years since us userbase ppl requested wifi+BT, G1, certain bug fixes, among other stuff?
RE: Wow this took a while
hoodoo @ 6/6/2005 8:00:45 PM # Q
Hey!

What about us Canadians? I have an m105 with the battery problem and an m100 with a horrible digitizer...

Who wants to send them in for me?

:)

RE: Wow this took a while
MikeInDM @ 6/7/2005 4:23:04 PM # Q
"What about us Canadians? I have an m105 with the battery problem and an m100 with a horrible digitizer..."

I don't think it would do any good. This was ONLY about the bad capacitor problem with data being lost during a battery change. From what I read NOTHING else was addressed, and you had to prove you lost data.

RE: Wow this took a while
hoodoo @ 6/7/2005 8:18:48 PM # Q
I can prove I lose the data, just replace the batteries. Duh!

But the digitizer problem is worse, it makes the PDA unuseable..those should be replaced!!!!!!!!!

Reply to this comment

This is great news

The Voice of Doubt @ 6/6/2005 8:44:24 PM # Q
I hope PalmOne gets sued for every screw up they have done. (e.g. Tungsten digitizer problems, buzzing backlight, TE down button not working and not claiming responsibility, TE2/T5 Find bug, etc)

This is exactly how you get selfish companies like PalmOne, who don't normally care about users, to actually start caring about their customers. (unfortunately)

Next thing you know, they will provide free batteries to everyone who will sue that Palm didn't disclose that Li-ion batteries last only 2-3 years before they die out. Maybe lifedrives battery is replaceable afterall ----- through lawsuits.

------------------

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceded our humanity" - ALBERT EINSTEIN

RE: This is great news
legodude522 @ 6/6/2005 9:26:31 PM # Q
Why don't we just over throw PalmOne and take over! Or maybe even riot infront of PalmOne headquarters. If I lived by it I would join in.

RE: This is great news
ReneeRoberts @ 6/6/2005 10:19:33 PM # Q
Everyday, I read comments from antagonistic individuals who think nothing of trying to bring a company down that has provided a helluva lot of commerce and clearly changed the computing world forever in a positive way. I am so tired of reading tirades from "The Voice of Doubt", "mikecane" and others that have decided to use PIC as a troll palace.

For Pete's sake, knock it off! PIC (and other PalmOS related sites now defunct) used to be a place for true information exchange, not a troll paradise.

Ryan, why are you putting up with these trolls?

RE: This is great news
Gekko @ 6/6/2005 10:49:55 PM # Q
>Everyday, I read comments from antagonistic individuals who think nothing of trying to bring a company down that has provided a helluva lot of commerce and clearly changed the computing world forever in a positive way.

Are you talking about all of the MSFT Bashers?



RE: This is great news
ChiA @ 6/7/2005 12:54:20 PM # Q
Renee Roberts said:
I am so tired of reading tirades from "The Voice of Doubt", "mikecane" and others that have decided to use PIC as a troll palace.
For Pete's sake, knock it off! PIC (and other PalmOS related sites now defunct) used to be a place for true information exchange, not a troll paradise.

And what have you provided to PIC in the form of true information exchange? If you're merely "complaining about complainers" then you yourself are no better than they are. You are just as free as any other member of this site to provide "true information exchange" as anyone else. So now we're all waiting for what you have to provide.

----------
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight � it�s the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: This is great news
ReneeRoberts @ 6/7/2005 1:44:17 PM # Q
Actually, I have provided quite a few news items to PIC over the years. Just because my name doesn't get attached to them doesn't mean I didn't provide it. And I have posted to the comments, although trolls have been degrading this site enough that I post most often elsewhere now.
RE: This is great news
Gekko @ 6/7/2005 2:13:01 PM # Q

Go elsewhere if you're only looking for blind apologist cheerleading.

RE: This is great news
chzhd @ 6/7/2005 2:29:03 PM # Q
The point she is trying to make is valid. No one is looking for "blind apologist cheerleading". Gekko's comment, while cute and mildly amusing, is what she is referring to. At one time this was an interesting forum to discuss the OS and hardware, however, that is no longer the case. Reading post's from many who frequent this site makes it seem as though Palm is about to go out of business. Clearly, Palm has problems but certainly not to the extent one reads about at PIC. No, people are not looking for "blind apologist cheerleading", however they should not be forced to tolerate the infantile, uniformed rantings of Mike Cane, The Voice of Doubt and other like them.

Pessimism everywhere?
Surur @ 6/7/2005 3:19:15 PM # Q

IMHO it does take a certain blind optimism to be supportive of Palm currently. Its like the Iraqi's before the Gulf War 2. Everybody knew they would get their a**es kicked, but they still blustered, and people still shouted defiance in the street. Many people said the consequences of invasion would be bad, but people knew it was not going to stop the fall of the government.

In the same way Palm is besieged, and despite the fact that it hasn't fallen yet everybody knows its extremely weakened, and once the attack starts in earnest they wont last long. People also know the aftermath would be bad, due to less competition, but thats not going to stop MS from going after Palm. In the same way the Iraqi government were in the end the authors of their won downfall, we know Palm made too many mistakes to blame MS for their demise, despite them being the agents of it.

At this stage things seems inevitable. Like Apple moving to Intel processors, and Palm buying back its name, really amazing unimaginable things can easily happen. Sorry for the political analogy, but I hope we can agree on the facts in broad. The people who loudly proclaim that there is no problem, and that things are perfect would be like the Iraqi information minister.

Surur

RE: This is great news
chzhd @ 6/7/2005 4:06:28 PM # Q
What????

RE: This is great news
ReneeRoberts @ 6/7/2005 4:40:07 PM # Q
I never said the industry didn't have competition, or problems for that matter. But these people stating "I hope Palm goes down in flames" obviously don't give a care about handhelds, or they wouldn't be spouting off like that. They are little kiddies with nothing better to do than to make rude comments to inflame, rather than offering constructive ideas or at least maintaining an adult level of discussion.

RE: This is great news
chzhd @ 6/7/2005 4:56:54 PM # Q
I could'nt agree with you more!

YAWN
svrontis @ 6/7/2005 6:50:54 PM # Q
Palm is 'besieged'? In 2005? Surely that's not possible. Wasn't Palm supposed to have been DESTROYED 6 years ago by the likes of Casio, Phillips, Panasonic, NEC, Toshiba and all the other WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever licensees? ROTFLMAO.

Anyway, I guess when the new CEO takes the axe to HP's iPAQ division and M$ looses it biggest licensee, then the 'siege' of Palm will really start in earnest.

RE: This is great news
E Ben G @ 6/7/2005 6:56:25 PM # Q
I'm certainly not a PPC apologist, but I have to wonder if a post-Palm world would really be all that bad. The PPC vendors will still competitively try to 1-up each other. And I still think MS will innovate and add power to their devices in an attempt to take a bite out of the promising multimedia/mp3 player market.

Nostalgia is a powerful thing, but I don't envision handheld development in the broadest sense slowing down that much regardless of what happens to Palm. As much as many of us hate MS, I don't think it's fair to say PC development slowed that much in the 90's, when Windows was the only 'real' player.

RE: This is great news
Surur @ 6/7/2005 7:14:28 PM # Q

svrontis:

I believe Palm is besieged. What would you call being surrounded by tens of OEM's gunning for your customers, who have better devices at lower prices.

These recent IDC numbers show either that a) Palm is executing very well in moving their customers from handhelds to smartphones or b) their handheld market has really crashed. They are shipping 23% less handheld devices than one year ago, while the top 4 WM OEM's shipped 19% more.There is a number of WM devices shipping soon to compete with the Treo, with blackberry like push e-mail, but also push tasks and push appointments and pushed files etc. It will be like blackberry on steroids, and so far Palm hasn't shown that they have an answer to this challenge.

So yes, Palm is treading water currently while their competitors are growing strongly. I think they are under siege, and I would like to hear a reasons response from you to explain why you think they are not.

Surur

RE: This is great news
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/8/2005 2:05:25 AM # Q
Everyday, I read comments from antagonistic individuals who think nothing of trying to bring a company down that has provided a helluva lot of commerce and clearly changed the computing world forever in a positive way. I am so tired of reading tirades from "The Voice of Doubt", "mikecane" and others that have decided to use PIC as a troll palace.

For Pete's sake, knock it off! PIC (and other PalmOS related sites now defunct) used to be a place for true information exchange, not a troll paradise.

Amen, Sister! Microsoft has done more to advance computing than any other company and instead of blind adulation and praise, all we hear is constructive criticism. At least they listen to that criticism and try to improve their products, though.


Put the hate on the haters, Rene. You GO, Girl!



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: This is great news
mikecane @ 6/8/2005 8:24:07 AM # Q
>>>I am so tired of reading tirades from [...] "mikecane" and others that have decided to use PIC as a troll palace.

Mike Cane *is* my real name, you dope. Hmmmm, let's see who this moron is:

PalmInfocenter Profile
ReneeRoberts
Basic Info:
User Name: ReneeRoberts
Real Name: Renee Roberts
Member Since: 1/14/2003
Posts: 1 (0 posts per day)
Main PDA: Treo 270

** 0 posts per day **

Yep, I'd say the ones I've just read were that too: ZERO.

Next imbecile get in line!

RE: This is great news
ReneeRoberts @ 6/8/2005 1:24:03 PM # Q
Actually, I was a member long before that. Ask Ryan. :-)

And I *have* provided numerous posts that usually appear in the form of NEWS that you like to rant about, no matter what the news is. I have made numerous posts. And so what if your nick is your real name? So is mine.

RE: This is great news
ReneeRoberts @ 6/8/2005 1:28:46 PM # Q
Oh, yeah, thanks for reminding me to update my profile.

RE: This is great news
mikecane @ 6/8/2005 1:35:56 PM # Q
>>>Actually, I was a member long before that. Ask Ryan. :-)

Fight your our damn battles, sissy.

>>>And I *have* provided numerous posts that usually appear in the form of NEWS that you like to rant about, no matter what the news is. I have made numerous posts. And so what if your nick is your real name? So is mine.

And apparently not good enough for you to have used it before this little tearfest. Does ANYONE here recognize your name? N and O.

>>>Oh, yeah, thanks for reminding me to update my profile.

Oh shut and stand still. Your head keeps moving out my crosshairs. Can you get a bigger head, maybe?

RE: This is great news
whitemiata @ 6/8/2005 2:10:42 PM # Q
>>Nostalgia is a powerful thing, but I don't envision handheld development in the broadest sense slowing down that much regardless of what happens to Palm. As much as many of us hate MS, I don't think it's fair to say PC development slowed that much in the 90's, when Windows was the only 'real' player.<<

How quickly we forget history.

Think back nearly a decade ago... remember a company called Netscape? Remember how often Microsquash released new and improved versions of Internet Explorer to compete against Navigator?

Then IE 6.0 came out... at that point Navigator was no longer competitive enough.. and the result has been?

How many years have we had IE 6.0 now? Compare that to the lifetime of IE 5, IE 4, IE 3 .... Ha! development didn't slow... my a$$

Now Microsoft announces IE 7.0

Clearly that's a sign that lack of competition is not a reason for Microsoft to rest on it's laurels, hu?

Firefox

It was a nice thought. Completely wrong, but nice nonetheless.

Alessandro

P.S. Even *W*I*T*H* Palm's competition, Microsoft has failed to design an operating system that outdoes PalmOS in the areas that PalmOS does best. No doubt PocketPC has far surpassed PalmOS in many cool gee-whiz areas, and also in some more practical ones. But the darn things, as impressive as they may be still can't be trusted to replace a PalmOS as PDA, for crying out loud!

RE: This is great news
Surur @ 6/8/2005 2:19:13 PM # Q
P.S. Even *W*I*T*H* Palm's competition, Microsoft has failed to design an operating system that outdoes PalmOS in the areas that PalmOS does best. No doubt PocketPC has far surpassed PalmOS in many cool gee-whiz areas, and also in some more practical ones. But the darn things, as impressive as they may be still can't be trusted to replace a PalmOS as PDA, for crying out loud!

Thats rather non-specific opinion. What exactly do you find deficient (and if alarms, well.... you win :) )

Surur

Point proven.
orb2069 @ 6/8/2005 2:20:26 PM # Q
Renee, I can understand why you wouldn't want to bother thanking TVo'R', Mike Cane and the various sock puppets that piped in with replies for proving/illustrating your point so clearly.

Ryan, I've stuck with this place for quite a while - I realize the extra income the trollfest produces (in terms of increased banner revenue) is tempting, but the Signal/Noise ratio has gotten entirely too high - and, consequently, my readership of the site has declined in turn - I'm sure that you've completely lost other readers in the same fashion.

Isen't it time to bite the bullet and move to a real discussion board system, one that allows ranking and killfiling? Slashcode is one example, but I'm sure a little research will turn up several.

1000->Personal->IRUpgrade->TRGPro->HE330->Treo 180->270

RE: This is great news
Admin @ 6/8/2005 3:17:10 PM # Q
Trust me I do not encourage or keep trolls around for any revenue based reason. I too am disappointed at the constant negativity some constantly throw out there. I am taking a tougher stance on moderating and am working on some ideas for a better comment system. While something like slashcode would be nice, It would most likely mean that I'd have to abandon 6 years of news/articles/comments, something I do not want to resort to. In the meantime, I am working on some ideas and will be moderating posts much more closely.
RE: This is great news
Gekko @ 6/8/2005 3:32:30 PM # Q

Maybe we'd all be more positive if Palm gave us something to be positive about?

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.



RE: This is great news
mikecane @ 6/8/2005 4:14:08 PM # Q
Yeah. What Gekko said.

And as for the whiiiiners here, where are YOUR brilliant posts to dazzle all of us with your wisdom, insight, and knowledge of Palm, PalmSource, the OS or its apps? Oh, thats right: there are NONE!

Next!

Dear Apologists: Ignorance Is Bliss
Gekko @ 6/8/2005 6:12:30 PM # Q
RE: This is great news
svrontis @ 6/8/2005 9:22:52 PM # Q
> I believe Palm is besieged. What would you call being surrounded by tens of OEM's gunning for your customers, who have better devices at lower prices.

What you SAY you believe is irrelevant.

You refer to tens of OEMs, but apart from HP and Dell there is not one of them who offers a broad range of handheld units or who otherwise looks like a real competitor. There are a number of specialist players, of course, (just as there are on the Palm side eg Garmin & Tapwave). Further, we have seen OEMs come and go from this market for a number of years now. They enter the market with a blaze of publicity and then then disappear into the sunset a year or two later having lost a lot of money in the meantime). I invite you to compare today's list of M$ flunkies with say a list of 3 years ago. How many of them have made a real impact?

HP's market share is being eroded by Dell. That's largely because of Dell's pricing policy. But it's also due to Dell's habit of giving PDAs (as 'gifts') to IT managers when trying to sell other equipment to them. (I have seen this at first hand.) So HP is facing problems in terms of pricing pressure and fall in market share generally. This is problem for the bottom line. To maintain their market share, HP need to commit to upgrading their range regularly. This is a problem for the bottom line.

Sure HP are a big company who can absord the losses, but they have a lot of other commitments too. They also have a new CEO, who has a reputation as a 'cost-cutter' from his NCR days.

Worse still, HP are being hounded by Wall Street analysts about poor performance, insufficient profits, etc - they are all advocating a reduction in the number of HP's divisions, so as to focus the company on more profitable business lines. If it was up to the analysts, HP would dump just about every division apart from the printers/supplies business.

I don't know HP's new CEO, but I do know one of the NCR management team. Based on what I have been told, his reputation as a cost-cutter is well deserved. His modus operandi is sell fixed assets (land, buildings, etc), cut back on R&D (especially in 'non-core' businesses) and freeze new hiring and salary rises. Surplus funds will be used mostly to buy-back shares or repay debt, rather than being deployed in the business. If HP's board will will let him, he will try to sell or downsize the less profitable parts of the HP business.

Where does this leave HP's handheld division? Well, they have falling market share and pricing pressure, a relatively big R&D budget and a new CEO who is looking for a 'quick fix' to the financial side of the business. Because the handheld business is such a small part of HP, they might escape with just a reduction in their cost overheads, while the CEO focuses on culling the bigger divisions. Alternatively, the new CEO might decide to slash the development budget for the iPAQ division and shift the engineers into other parts of the HP empire.

What does this all mean? Try putting 2 and 2 together.

Your assertion that the M$ lackeys offer better devices at better prices is amusing.

You are making the common mistake of confusing specifications with capabilities. For instance, the Axim X50v comes with a fast processor, which looks better on paper than anything Palm offers. Fine, but Axim needs an enormous processor just to run a complex operating system and the VGA screen at acceptable level. (This, of course, causes problems in terms of battery life.) I advise you to forget about the specifications you see in the advertising literature and look to how the devices perform under real conditions.

As to better prices, I invite you to do a comparison - you will see that the OEMs you refer to typically offer their units at about $150-$200 more than the roughly equivalent palmpilots.

As for your sad devotion to the M$ cause - well, all I can say is: None are so blind as those who are paid not to see.

RE: This is great news
mikecane @ 6/8/2005 9:49:23 PM # Q
Gekko: Where'd you get that picture of Nagel, Slotkin, and McVeigh?

RE: This is great news
Surur @ 6/9/2005 2:57:46 AM # Q

svrontis: So basically you are saying HP may exit the PDA market, and this will leave more breathing space for Palm? You are making the mistake of thinking HP is what PPC's are all about. They are less than a 1/3 of the device market, and there are many other OEM's who will step up to the plate. Also, with WM5, the role of PDA's in managing workers will just increase. I doubt HP will want to cede this market to an improved blackberry.

Either way, regarding OEM's, there is HP, Dell, Asus, Toshiba is still around, Mitac, Fujitsu Siemens and thats not counting the phone edition devices distributes by vodaphone, Orange and t-mobile.

Lastly, speculation is fine, but the trend is clear. Palm's non-phone devices are being phased out.

Surur

Reply to this comment

reminds me of another palm I had...

joad @ 6/7/2005 12:05:55 AM # Q
In 1998, I recall suddenly losing all my data overnight, fresh and full batteries already installed, in my original PalmPilot Professional. It was near the end of a European trek of many weeks, and I had foolishly trusted it with many numbers and addresses gathered along the way that can never be replaced. As the batteries were fresh, I doubt it could have anything to do with the capacitor. Palm tech support said version 2.04 was the problem, but Palm tech support (at least then) barely knew what a Hotsync was so I never did trust that.

Needless to say - as soon as the TRGPro came out I was on it (the Visor seemed pointless as it used a proprietary slot). Strange how Palm continued to make devices without internal backup schemes for all those years after. I guess now they're paying just a little back for it.

RE: reminds me of another palm I had...
hkklife @ 6/7/2005 12:31:52 AM # Q
I had one of those little Memorysafe dongle thingies that plugged into the serial port on the bottom of my old Palm Vx. I think I bought it from some German webstore, as they were very hard to come by at the time (2000-2001). It had 8mb on it and could back up the entire Palm but, unfortunately, couldn't be used as external storage. Still a handy tool to have when traveling!

Reply to this comment

What nonsense!

Chris Fletcher @ 6/7/2005 5:11:51 AM # Q
If the same applied each time I lost data when Windows crashed, I would be a billionaire by now.



RE: What nonsense!
PhylarDreamhalls @ 6/7/2005 11:21:02 AM # Q
If it was about data loss, you'd be correct; but it's not. It's about faulty hardware. The capacitators that gave power to the RAM while you were changing the batteries were faulty. So, just like when automobilie manufactures make faulty parts in cars and have to replace them, Palm has to recompensate the customer.

However, what is odd is that they will probably get some very nice Zire or what not brand new because this lawsuit has been so delayed.

RE: What nonsense!
MikeInDM @ 6/7/2005 4:27:24 PM # Q
No, I believe it's about data loss. When I read through things yesterday it said something about proving you lost data.
RE: What nonsense!
Surur @ 6/7/2005 4:38:21 PM # Q

Like this:

Me: "Your Honor, I lost some notes I made. They were revolutionary, and it was an idea that would have made me millions. I immediately jotted it down in my trusty PDA, but due to the bad capacitor it was completely lost. Unfortunately I was never able to recall again what the idea was, and therefore lost MILLIONS!!"

Judge " Palm, PAY UP!"

:)

Either way, how do you prove data loss? If you had a copy or backup you haven't really lost anything, have you?

Surur

RE: What nonsense!
chzhd @ 6/7/2005 4:57:57 PM # Q
What????

RE: What nonsense!
Chris Fletcher @ 6/8/2005 3:56:13 AM # Q
It's all about the data. If not, why would you worry about a hard reset and loosing all data?

If it were just hardware, get a refund from the shop you purchased it from - American consumers have so much power on this front.

RE: What nonsense!
mikecane @ 6/8/2005 1:38:46 PM # Q
>>>American consumers have so much power on this front.

Damn right. The first thing we were dissatisfied with was that damned British Tea!

Maybe it's time for an American Palm Party? Let's all arrange to meet and pelt Colligan with our defective units when he sprints for his Mercedes!

Reply to this comment

Serves them right

palmhiker @ 6/7/2005 8:15:21 AM # Q
My m125 was one of the most unreliable piece of electronics I have ever owned. I first experienced this issue while on a business trip about 4 months after I bought the POS.

My batteries were fresh, but my unit had an issue where occaisionally the batteries would lose contact for an instant, and - total data loss. I purchased a backup app. at that point, and had to use it maybe once or twice a week.

My kids now use the thing to play games on, and EVERY time the batteries get low we have to use the backup.

I will gladly send this thing back to Palm for whatever I can get out of them for it.

Reply to this comment

Lawyers!

SeanSL @ 6/7/2005 12:46:24 PM # Q
How many lawyers does it take to change the batteries in a Palm?

RE: Lawyers!
ozz @ 6/7/2005 1:01:14 PM # Q
I give up, now many?
RE: Lawyers!
mikecane @ 6/8/2005 8:26:50 AM # Q
Less than the number needed to change from G1 to G2!

Reply to this comment

There is a workaround

McClie @ 6/8/2005 4:28:57 PM # Q
This happened to my m105 after rechargable batteries went flat inside it. I then discovered that if you replaced one battery at a time (not in immedaite sequence but only replacing one battery each time the power goes down), that the hard reset did not occur. I can't explain the science, I know that the power circut should be broken but it worked. THe power in the one nearly flat battery was enough to keep the faulty capacitor going. Unfortunately I doscovered this hours after buying my SJ33 to replace the defective m105.

C'est la Clie



Mark
Palm m100 Palm m105 Clie SJ33

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