Comments on: Palm Lowers Handheld Prices
Palm has lowered the retail price of the Tungsten T5 and Zire 72 by $50. In addition, thier is a $50 mail in rebate for the Tungsten E2 handheld. More details at the Palm Store.
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RE: Too late for me
RE: Too late for me
T|E2" That's a nice price on a decent unit for basic PDA purposes. It'd make a nice temporary unit for someone running an older Tungsten until something more attractive arrives this fall or next spring. I just wish that the T|E2's lingering "find" bug could be squashed.
T5: So if Palm's price for the T5 is $350, then the "real world" price for the unit will likely end up being $325-$300. Finally a decent MSRP for a unit that should've been priced around this price point at launch. At $300ish or below, it makes the most sense for someone who is looking for a short term T3 replacement.
The Zire 72 price is nice but Overstock.com has refurbs even cheaper. Fairly often you can get lucky and score a like-new refurb from them.
Other gripes: Where's that dammmed LifeDrive ROM update we were promised two months ago? Where's PocketTunes' update? Where's the LifeDrive Thinkoutside keyboard driver? Has the entire developer community thrown up their collective arms in disgust at P1?
RE: Too late for me
I am reading with worry the reports that the average PDA sales price is going up. From $175 two years ago for the average Palm to $285 now. I want prices to go the other way. But, with overall sales dropping, this is probably what we can expect.
Such a drop often preceeds new models. That seems unlikely for the practically new TE2 and T5, but the Zire 72 is getting really old, in spite of the spiffy way they decided not to paint it with that blue rubber stuff that comes right off anyway! I'd really like to see a Zire 73 come out. I am not likely to buy one in the near future, but I would like to see one for two reasons.
1. Zire 72s might be so cheap (I only paid $118 for my Zire 71, bought as the 72 was announced.) that I could buy one just for a spare.
2. I would have it as a fall-back buy in case a VGA PPC doesn't quite make it into my pocket as my next PDA.
RE: Too late for me
In a recent post over at pocketpcthoughts.com, you declared that you have given up on Palms, how they can't compare with PPC, etc, etc. If so, why do you keep coming back here?
RE: Too late for me
svrontis,
You would only be too happy to be surrounded by true loyalists, who believe everything that Kirvin says, and say anything to make Palm sound good.
Maybe you are at the wrong website. Have you tried http://www.Palmloyal.com ?
Surur
RE: Too late for me
I got a really nice NR70V, then a Zire 71, now a 72.
About 18 months ago I tried a very nice piece of PPC hardware. An Asus model that was about the perfect size and quality. Half an inch thick. Metal case. The speed was OK, the size was OK. The OS stability was finaly almost OK. The little spinning wheel on PPCs drives me crazy for some reason. Anyway, the real final reason I sent it back was because I had a big file I use often. A simple DOC file of 1 MB or bigger in size. I could not get TextMaker to open it. Just couldn't. I had the device with a 10 day money back guarentee so I sent it back. I think I could have gotten it to work with enough effort, but my Clie was working well.
Soon, I had a zippy new Zire 71. It was a nice little model and I only paid $118 for it on closeout at Sears.
I got an even better configured 72 last fall for only $180 and sold my 71 for $100 to a friend (who got a great deal, I sometimes wish I'd kept it.) These days, that same file fails to sync 1 in 3 times with WordSmith on my 71. I often have to reboot my desktop and my 71 to get a sync at all. I am not up for this kind of fiddling. Either the OS is overcobbled or WordSmith needs to update it's client. Anyway, such troubles make the spinning wheel less offensive.
Anyway, I am now right on the edge. Even though I don't like the configurations of the POS models (big shortfall is the SSS sMALL sQUARE sCREEN) and find the price/per/feature ratio lacking on current Palm models, I get some great deals and don't have to start all over with new software and the learning curve.
I keep looking. I am just hooked on PDAs. I really like PIC. I liked it more when there was anonymous posting. It is like hanging out at a party. I hear the most outrageous stuff. I was once a very vocal booster of POS at Brighthand and PDA Buzz (alas Wes(?), you were the king!) The two platforms are so close now. I could go either way, but I am more likely to get an Axim next. I want: real multi-tasking, real fonts, VGA, and real files. I thought Docs-to-go would help me realize that last one. POS once had the kind of word processors, WordSmith which I still use many times a day, but I really want to have my files where I want to have them. I have hundreds of Docs on my Zire. I can't keep them in 16 categories and worry about whether they sync properly. I want to put the files in the same folders I keep them organized in on my desktop, just like I did with my original Revo. Is that so hard, Palm? Can Palms really NOT deliver Cobalt with exactly the things I want added to POS? I'm just fed up with POS, and looking for a way out. I hang out here hoping I won't really have to go PPC.
Whew, that was a complicated mess of a post that is as close to completely off topic as it can get. But, with such wandering around, from topic to topic, how could it be on topic!
Signal of new models to come...
I support http://Tapland.com/
--------------------
GNM
RE: Signal of new models to come...
I agree that Palm usually has a Spring and Fall release schedule but the Fall release is usually in late October/early November and I think this price reduction is way to early to indicate releases that are a few months away.
In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin
Future of the Zire
Powered by Palm OS since March 2002
RE: Future of the Zire
JLM.
RE: FrankenGarnet: No Bargain At Any Price.
Tell that to your friends at Redmond. Isn't time they got ActiveSync to work properly?
Lower prices (but it depends)
Here are the results (conversion to euros):
US: 292
UK: 338
Portugal: 419,99
France: 429
Italy: 439,99
Spain: 449,99
Why? I dont think postage explains everything
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
There are other expenses. In some countries a seller is practically required to offer a consumer return policy that practically ensures any user can return any item for up to a year and get the full price he paid back. Even if the device works like it was brand new.
So, there you have it.
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
In some countries a seller is practically required to offer a consumer return policy that practically ensures any user can return any item for up to a year and get the full price he paid back
Oh yeah? Just which countries exactly Timothy? because with policies like that I just might want to live there! Buy something, use it for a year, get the money back, buy the better version and bring that back in a year. What a fantastic way to save money!
I think you're confusing what is law with what is good business practice. There are consumer protection laws (which all European Union member countries agreed to adopt at a similar standard) to protect consumers from ripoff merchants who'd sell you an empty box or a broken Palm. That's different from when a retailer decides to give you a goodwill refund so as to keep your custom (ie keep you spending good money with them) and their reputation.
In some of those countries the tax is included in the price and you don't really know what it even is. It is illegal for a retailer to tell you
Timothy that is one big pile of manure. I've checked the PalmStore websites for those listed countries and they all show the VAT (Value Added Tax) which you pay on your purchases. As for physical shops the price on the shelf is the price you pay, in the UK if you need to know what has VAT and its amount you can ask for a VAT receipt. Some shops even print these details automatically anyway. Besides, VAT in the UK is at a flat rate of 17.5% and very, very few things are exempt so it's not as if you can't work it out anyway. I've found it to be a similar situation in the other EU countries.
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
Yes. Why is a very good question especially when those countries are European Union countries and the EU is meant to be one single market. Maybe the answer is for Spanish people to buy from the UK store and then complain to the European Court if they don't ship from the UK to Spain. The UK's Consumer Association has quite rightly asked the European Commission to investigate why Apple charges UK customers 20% more than German customers for downloading the same iTunes song! Talk about ripoff!
On that note I don't know if it's still the case where it's cheaper to buy a Eurostar London to Paris ticket from the French ticket office than from the Brtish one! It's disappointing such odd discrepancies exist despite this so-called single internal market of the European Union. I guess the moral is to always shop around for the best deal!
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
If you don't like the reasons I post for the price discrepancies, you are welcome to present your alternative explainations. Mine are not a load of manure, they are reasons I have read here and other places from people who actually live in Europe. The fact is that you cannot ask a retail merchant exactly what the VAT is on a particular item. It is illegal for him to tell you. Just as it is illegal for a US phone company to call the USF a tax, even though that is plainly what it is.
RE the lemon laws and such. If you don't believe me, they you are welcome to present your own notions of why consumer electronics goods are so much more expensive in many European countries than they are in the US. I first heard this argument when someone in Scandanavia somewhere whined about how he was paying 20%-40% more for a new computer than an American pays for the exact same model.
Show me some proof that European consumer laws don't allow people much more leeway in returns or some evidence that a French consumer can ask a retailer about the details of the VAT and get solid answers if you think I am making it up.
Moreover, I don't see your own explaination of why the prices differ. Maybe you have nothing to add to the topic that explains the price differences. Oh, except maybe the big bad companies just don't like you, or don't like the UK, or there are pink fairies who come to you at night and tell you what the prices ought or ought not to be. But, the Martians who actually set the prices don't like you.
There are reasons why those prices are different in different countries. If you don't like the reasons I have offered, present your own.
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
Timothy you've not answered my question on exactly which countries have this consumer rule you talk about. Is it a case that you don't know or those pink fairies and Martians you talk about told you?
The fact is that you cannot ask a retail merchant exactly what the VAT is on a particular item The fact is that for the UK at least, YOU ARE WRONG
http://tinyurl.com/dt53a
(See the section "VAT on bills and Receipts")
also Go to the Palm Web Stores for the UK, France, Spain and Portugal where you will see the VAT amount clearly stated at the checkout section
You may also find this helpful:
http://tinyurl.com/dejvf
Besides, it's something you can work out yourself: for the UK you subtract 17.5% from the final purchase price. Also businesses can buy goods and services for their own business use from anywhere within the EU. In the UK a business can purchase the product at the VAT inclusive price then get the VAT amount deducted when they send their VAT return to the tax office. How can they do that if the seller won't tell them the VAT amount?
As for opinion on consumer law:
http://europa.eu.int/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/guides/buying/index.html
http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/your-rights/fs_c04.shtml
Be careful what you ask for and be careful about what you say is fact.
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
Reasons for Price Differences Between Countries
different taxation rates (even within EU and USA- some states charge a sales tax) Taxation can be both what the consumer pays (VAT) and costs which the companies have to pay e.g. import tariffs.
distribution and transport costs - let's face it if you make a chair you can sell it and deliver it to your neighbour for free but it'll cost more to send if you want to sell it to your friend based in Antartica. Now there's an extreme but it illustrates
perfectly.
different rent and property costs - I think it's safe to say it's much dearer to rent a shop in Manhattan than it is in downtown Harare, Zimbabwe.
different wage costs - someone being paid $15 an hour in the US will probably be paid around $15 dollars a day in India for doing the same job.
EFFICIENCY - Quite bluntly, some businesses are more efficient and productive than others. An inefficient business will incur more costs and charge more in order to meet those costs.
BECAUSE THEY CAN - Companies are out to make as much money as they can. If you can find someone cheaper then go there. If you don't like the price then you don't have to buy the product. That's competiton for you. But if a company prices its products too high then they price themselves out of the market and go out of business. (Take note of this Palm Inc).
In citing these differences I'm assuming that the product is manufactured in one country. It gets more complex still when one company manufactures the same product in several countries.
These differences exist within and between countries. Choose where you buy from and how you buy carefully.
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
European Union VAT
The fact is that you cannot ask a retail merchant exactly what the VAT is on a particular item. It is illegal for him to tell you
VAT is a tax set at a rate decided by a government. This rate has to be made public knowledge so that people know how much tax they have to pay.
Also people who are visitors to the European Union (eg Americans) who aren't resident can get the VAT on their purchases within the EU refunded. How can that be possible if they're not told what the rate is?
http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/taxation_customs/common/travellers/leave_eu/index_en.htm
( or http://tinyurl.com/8svh8 )
Oh and these links are for the privilege of educating your European friends who for some reason don't know their own VAT rates:
http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/rates/index_en.htm
(or http://tinyurl.com/cmzdr )
http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm
(or http://tinyurl.com/dvygv )
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
Nor is there anything that disproves what I was told by a consumer on the WWW about the consumer law in his own country (which I no longer recall the name of) which allowed consumers such broad power to cheat electronics manufacturers out of new models or upgrades every year.
Nor do any of your many sites, that show some VATs are public, prove that there is not a lot of VAT that is not public. Please note that VATs are added not only by the final retailer (btw, if this is so public it would have to include how much the retailer bought the product for, because the final portion of the VAT is only charged on the final markup) as well as how much the wholesaler paid for the item (same thing, the wholesaler only pays VAT on his markup, the rest of the VAT is tacked on before he gets it. Unlike a sales tax, the tax is figured on the amount of the price that gets added at each level of the transaction, not the total.)
So, you present a bunch of evidence, but none of it says that my explanation for the high and disparate prices is factually wrong and you offer no plausible alternative explaination for the prices which clearly must be explained somehow.
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
I know of no US seller which offers two years of standard waranty on their PDAs. None. Now, if this was from an EU site it is newer than the original information I got from the scandanavian who was complaining about the high prices of computers. Do all EU regulations supercede former national ones? Nonetheless, even this regulation is very broad and if someone takes in a 22 month old Palm M130 and complains about the screen not having the 16 bit color (or whatever the debacle was the Palm had to offer refunds or partial rebates for) he would get his full purchase price back as they could never provide an M130 that did the color as originally described. He wouldn't have gotten that in most places.
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
Your explainations are very good, especially the one differing tax rates, just like I said.
The rest is more than enough to explain the price differences and they all look very sound to me.
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
Now imagine Palm's liability in Europe when 20-30% of those HDD's in the LifeDrive fail within two years.
Surur
A few more thoughts
As for the m130 debacle, just as the consumer can get their money back for being deceived, the retailers and distributors can get their money back from Palm for deceiving them. Hopefully it provides some motivation for Palm to build better units.
Why should it be a given that a Palm fails within two years of use? Washing machines, cars and hard disks with lots of mechanical parts subject to wear and tear are expected to last longer, so why should a Palm with little or no moving parts be any different?
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
Spelling it out.
especially the one differing tax rates, just like I said:
Nor do any of your many sites, that show some VATs are public, prove that there is not a lot of VAT that is not public. Please note that VATs are added not only by the final retailer (btw, if this is so public it would have to include how much the retailer bought the product for, because the final portion of the VAT is only charged on the final markup) as well as how much the wholesaler paid for the item (same thing, the wholesaler only pays VAT on his markup, the rest of the VAT is tacked on before he gets it. Unlike a sales tax, the tax is figured on the amount of the price that gets added at each level of the transaction, not the total.
NO! IT'S NOT AT ALL LIKE YOU SAID!
Refer to:
http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm
Relevant Extract:
How is it charged?
The VAT due on any sale is a percentage of the sale price but from this the taxable person is entitled to deduct all the tax already paid at the preceding stage. Therefore, double taxation is avoided and tax is paid only on the value added at each stage of production and distribution. In this way, as the final price of the product is equal to the sum of the values added at each preceding stage, the final VAT paid is made up of the sum of the VAT paid at each stage.
Oh and just to make sure we don't go down that route of argument:
(a x b)+(a x c) = a(b+c).
(17.5% x £100) + (17.5% x £400) = 17.5% x (£100+ £400)
Maths lesson 101
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
I am sorry, Tim, but I can tell you VAT:
21% in Portugal;
17% in Spain;
The law here in Portugal is clear: if no mention is made, the final price presented includes all taxes.
If you shopped on Amazon you see the price for a book, but when you receive your invoice that price is divided in book proce and taxes, adding the price you saw initially.
So, I ask again: why a T5 sold online, is cheaper in Portugal than in Spain? Living in Portugal, the nearest warehouse of Palm is located in Spain (if my Palm is broken I have to send it to Spain), so I assume I will receive it from Spain or UK. With lower taxes, Spain pays more than Portugal.
One explanation: market reasons. Portugal is poorer than Spain, so Palm can charge more. But why cant I buy online at UK prices?
I bought my first Palm, I bought it from UK Palm Store with no problems. My second from Amazon.com (always cheaper than in Portugal). So I see no reason but commercial reasons.
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
As to Chia's final post I don't understand the "NO! IT'S NOT AT ALL LIKE YOU SAID!' Perhaps we are expressing it differently.
I am clearly in way over my head on a topic that is far too complex to settle here. A more limited question might be answerable to everyone's satisfaction (eg, what make's that Spainish T5 so much more than the Portugese one.) Then someone inside could look at who gets how much of that extra 30 Euros. Maybe HP and Dell don't sell in Spain, so Palm just takes the extra 30. Anyway, I am a long way from being able to settle that.
I tried to help, but I can see I really don't know. Sorry to waste all this time for everyone, but I am home nursing a bad back for the past month and have all this time to waste.
T5 has sold here for as little as $280 a couple of months ago and that is without this new $50 cut. I would pay the $230 for a TE2 with the screen from the T5, but the T5 seems too buggy to mess with at any price for me. I am hoping for other bargains.
Tim it's not been a waste of time at all.
As you say it's a very complex issue believe me, as someone living in the UK it can be galling to see massive price differences with no apparent reason.
However,there are many factors which can influence final selling price, some of which from the seller's perspective are their right to keep secret so that they can't be taken advantage of by their competitors. For example, if you're in an auction bidding for a car, would you be happy if others bidding against you knew how much money you've set aside to buy it?
The sad fact is some of these things we will know e.g. VAT but most we will not: e.g. amount of discount given to a retailer from a wholesaler for making volume purchases, what percentage of the selling price is used to pay for property costs, etc etc. With clever deduction and investigation you may get a rough idea but they won't tell you just like that because you may be working for or be willing to tell their competitors!
The best thing to do as a consumer is to shop around; retailers will price their goods as high as people are willing to pay for them. People in Spain must be happy with the higher price of their Palms. If they're not they'll do as aingles has done, buy from outside the country. If enough people do that then they'll be forced to find a way to lower their prices so as to avoid going out of business.
Timothy, I'm sorry to hear you're not well. Here's to wish you a speedy and full recovery.
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
A news related to the subject:
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/07/21/hp_wins_grey_case/
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
When one buys a banana, a sofa, or a pair of blue jeans what you get is what you get.
When you buy property with intellectual or artistic value it is more complicated. With intellectual property (and part of a PDA is the code in there) you normally only actually get a lisence for it's use. The actuall code is still owned by the producer. With such complex items there is also support. I am rarely going to need to call a banana producer for info on how to get my banana open and working, but I may need that with a PDA.
In some countries companies are legally required to give copies of their tech products to the governments for testing and such, or just as a tax. In some African nation I read where a guy could not bring in an iPaq. He had foolishly written to HP and asked permission and since he asked, by law, they had to tell him no and I think they had to warn customs or something that he might be trying to bring an iPaq into the Sudan (wherever it was. Can you tell, I am not a detail person?) Such costs are good if they are for reasonable, legitimate business purposes. They hurt the customer and eventually the producer when games are played. Each case is different. HP won the recent European case. The poor customer who wanted to take his iPaq into Africa (sadly, I recall him being an MD who needed to carry info to treat sick poor people on a charity mission.) lost if I recall correctly.
In the US car companies (and I believe most manufacturers of anything) must keep a certain level of parts inventory just in case they are needed. This keeps a lot of specialty cars out of the US. Sad, that.
Publishing entities enjoyed the opposite for a long time. Before they changed the law (1988?), companies could practically make money on books if they sold more poorly than if they were big success. They could print 10 times the copies they might sell in a year, warehousing the 90%. All the expense could be deducted, then the books appreciated (inflation) and were written off as a loss in the new higher retail price level. The tax savings were enormous in an industry that can have big profits on one good book a year. Anyway, they fixed that, so publishers can't play such games. The more complex tax and regulatory rules get the more loopholes like that we see.
I think what the world needs is a good $200 model with all the features of a Dell X50v, plus camera and choice of WM, Linux, or POS. I don't think we are ever going to get it.
RE: Lower prices (but it depends)
z73 around the corner?
[signature0]
the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse
[/signature0]
[signature1]
My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71 --> Tungsten T3 (with 5 of 6 screws still remaining) --> zodiac 2?
[/signature1]
RE: z73 around the corner?
I am dumbfounded and disatisfied every time I try to use my Zire 72 in a dark room. The screen is so bright my eyes hurt, but I have to have a bight light on in the room because I need to see the FITALY input section of the screen. This is STOOPID.
It is 2005 Palm. My old Clie had this feature. A Handera 330 had it. All PPCs have it. Yet, you try to palm off hobbled models like the TE on us. Stop! It would cost you another $5 to include this in all models. Get on with it!
And don't give us any of that no microphone nonsense in the bargain, like you did on the T5!
Zire 31 Replacement?
I used to only want the latest ad greatest, but now that I am older (and have a laptop), the 31 works just fine for me.
I just can't learn to like that blue faceplate.
<><
RE: Zire 31 Replacement?
My wife had a 31. She uses it to play Chess. For Valentines day I beamed a card/greeting to her. She smiled, but worried if that would delete her chess games?
Even though she knows tons of stuff about Spyware, and virii, she simply is not interested in learing how to actually use her 31. She just wants to play chess once in a while. She does it as therapy to prevent Alzheimers. We are 50.
She worried something awful when she could not get her 31 to charge. She kept looking at the battery level after she got her Trac Phone and learned how to worry about battery levels. When I finally told her it was fully charged, she pointed right at the scroll bar and told me it certainly was not. I told her that was the scroll bar and how to check the batter level. It was really funny.
For Mother's Day, I had an extra 256 MB card laying around. (Can you believe I paid $50 for a 128 MB Memory Stick once? I saw a 256 MB SD card today for $8. EIGHT Dollars!) Anyway, I put a bunch of very nice family photos on a card and installed the Palm Photo viewer (Palm, you should be ashamed of this utility not even offering a chance for the user to change the viewing size.) and she had nice photos on it in her purse to look at any time she wanted. She took the card out because she just knew it would suck the battery life out of her 31 and probably cause cancer too (I made up that last part. She is not a loon, but how could she worry about that card? Oh well.)
I know she is not getting a new Zire when they come out. But, you might.
What features do you think the next one will offer. We really ought to have a chart and know just how Palm will offer as little as possible and cripple it in exactly which ways as the have for 10 years. If they offer hi-res, it will compete with the TE2. But, if they don't what is the use of doing anything. More RAM? Well, they have to offer some improvements? They can already sell the 31 profitably for $100 now. Maybe they will just change the case color and drop the list to $100. I have never owned anything with less than QVGA, and wouldn't recommend less than that in color for anyone even though my wife got that 31. We got it in too much of a hurry. I could have gotten her more for less if we had planned it out and shopped for longer.
I wonder if they could offer a close copy of the original Zire 71 with the low res camera, only 16MB, and nice screen for the $150 original price of the 31? Would that be too close to the now-list-price $200 TE2? Would it face too much competition with camera-phones? I guess it would and Palm is more likely to barely add anything to the 31 but drop the price to $100. What do you think?
RE: Zire 31 Replacement?
It's still a phenomenal deal for the money and all of the PDA "most" casual users require.
They actually are in need of rebadging the entire lineup to say "Palm" again so expect maybe 1/3 of the currentl models to be phased out while the others are swiftly replaced this fall and next spring. Two Zires, two Tungstens, a LifeDrive of some kind and two Treos. That's the most units that Palm can realistically support & market at any given time.
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