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    Comments on: Smartphones Up, Handhelds Down Globally in Q2The global market for smart mobile devices continued its meteoric rise in Q2 according to estimates released by Canalys today. The positions of the top three vendors, Nokia, Palm and RIM, remained unchanged from Q1, though strong performance by Motorola, particularly in China and Japan, helped it re-enter the top five narrowly ahead of Fujitsu.
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The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PIC is not responsible for them in any way. login or register for free in order to post comments.  RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
It pains me to say it, but Palm has made a small turn around of sort. They sold 50 000 more units in Q2 2005 vs Q1 2005, while WM sold 50 000 less in the same period. WM still sold 800 000 more though. Surur RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
My main concern, though, is that Dell, in an attempt to drive sales of their computing systems, especially their Dell Axim Windows Mobile handhelds, have met a lot of friction due to their excessive utilization of startling corner cuts, poor worksmanship, even not giving enough time to make their systems all beautiful and perfect to the last drop. Behind the low price of the Dell Axim handhelds lie poor worksmanship, lack of quality control, even crappy customer support. Only HP knows how to carefully tailor Windows Mobile handhelds as America knows it. It's not just Palm that is suffering from poor worksmanship and lack of listening skills, it's Dell with their poor worksmanship and oftenly startling results arising from excessive corner cuts. RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
I haven't heard Axim's are excessively plagued by problems. People seem pretty happy over at Aximsite.com BTW, If Ryan is reading, if I have your permission I will past a rather Palm positive graph of the above. Surur RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...AdamaDBrown @ 7/28/2005 9:38:21 PM #
I've got an entire herd of Axims, and I certainly haven't had and problems with shoddy workmanship. I actually feel that the X50s are of better construction than my older models. All current Axims are manufactured by HTC, one of the most respected ODMs in the market, and the contract manufacturer of the Treo 650. In contrast, most of HP's recent models have been lackluster in design, and overpriced. They mostly maintain their marketshare because Dell doesn't have a B&M presence. Linux beating up on MS
One interesting aspect about this is that "Other" OS vendors are growing twice as fast as Microsoft in the smartphone space. Practically all of that "Other" vendor category is selling Linux phones. Linux is especially huge in Asia, where the Chinese market alone is bigger than the US and Europe combined. A lot of the attraction is that Linux is NOT Microsoft, which is kind of viscerally distrusted over there. But a lot has to do with the fact that Linux smartphones can be customized and differentiated more than MS phones, which necessarily all have the same look and feel and are more limited in the hardware platforms they require. Whether PalmSource will succeed or not in partnerships with embedded Linux vendors like MontaVista and Trolltech is a matter of debate, but I don't think there is much doubt that the move to being a middleware and application-stack provider for Linux phones was the right one. One thing I find interesting (and hopeful) is the way PalmSource was quickly received as a partner more than a competitor with the other players in the Linux phone space. The Linux world works differently from the rest of the OS market because of the open source aspect. PalmSource made various overtures to the Linux community signaling its desire to contribute to the growth of embedded Linux (not just free ride off it) and they seem to have been welcomed into a band that is determined to work together to unseat Microsoft in the embedded space.
RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...AdamaDBrown @ 7/29/2005 1:30:19 PM #
I think that the main reason Linux is popular in Asia is because it's free or nearly free, and doesn't require standardized hardware. It's the only real OS with significant headroom in the ultra-low-cost Chinese cell phone market. In any event, does it really matter if PSRC succeeds at making cell phone skins? (I doubt they will, but that's another thing.) It wouldn't change the fate of the PalmOS as we know it, which is all I really care about. Skins?
In any event, does it really matter if PSRC succeeds at making cell phone skins? (I doubt they will, but that's another thing.) It wouldn't change the fate of the PalmOS as we know it, which is all I really care about. What they are doing is no more a "skin" than what the original Palm did by creating Palm OS on the Kadak kernel that was used up until OS 5. Likewise, Palm OS for Linux is "Palm OS as we know it" as much as OS 5 was "Palm OS as we knew it" back then: it has the same API for developers, runs all the same applications, just (hopefully) does it better on a wider range of devices--especially phones. Now, if you're referring to PalmSource's "feature phone" platform, that's a different thing, and yes, that won't be anything that anyone (including PalmSource) will call "Palm OS." At best it will be Palm-O-esque. No one on PIC will care about it, but it's probably going to sell a lot more than Palm OS ever did, just because that's the fat part of the phone market.
RE: Skins
Sorry, I sorta misread AdamaDBrown's comment. He said Palm OS for Linux "wouldn't change the fate of the Palm OS as we know it" not that it wouldn't be Palm OS as we know it. He may be right. But looking at the momentum this report shows Linux has as a smartphone OS kernel (already trouncing MS this early in the game) and the enthusiasm that embedded Linux vendors like MontaVista and TrollTech are showing about PalmSource coming in with a very popular middleware/application stack to run on their Linux kernels, I think there's cause for hope. What's kind of sad is that PalmSource had to sell off its rights to the Palm name. Even though they have 4 years left to use it, I kind of doubt Palm OS for Linux will have "Palm" in its name anywhere next year, so almost any connection PSRC might have made to the "household name" of mobile devices will be lost. On top of all the other obstacles they have to overcome they now have to build a new brand from scratch. On the other hand, how many of those millions of Linux smartphone buyers have even heard of MontaVista or TrollTech or care what OS their phone runs? Maybe brand doesn't matter as much in the phone OS market as it did for PDAs.
RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
If Linux replaces Symbian as the opposition in the smartphone market, would anything really have changed? Linux may be cheaper (but how much does trolltech charge?) but if WM allows the OEM's to charge more, and allows the networks to make more money (by increasing data usage and paid content)then its still likely to succeed in the smart-smartphone market. Examples of value add would include push e-mail and Janus, which would e.g. allow you to take your TIVO programs with you in the morning, and a developer community thats larger than the actual device, meaning much more software and customization available. Linux may not sell a device, but Windows certainly does. Surur RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
Linux isn't necessarily cheaper than WM to put on a phone--that's a fallacy. In fact, at the moment it almost certainly costs a little more in the upfront development costs because it's still not something you can just throw onto some silicon and say "there, it works." MontaVista and TrollTech (as well as PalmSource China) are starting to change that but it's still the fact. But the costs we are talking about here are small when you amortize them over many thousands of devices--less than 5% of the total cost of the phone. It's true that the attraction of WM is the Microsoft name and the perception that it will play nicer with MS Exchange, etc. Unfortunately for MS what we're seeing is that those are not primary motivations for choosing a smartphone OS these days--at least not for the device vendors who are the real OS customers. They want an OS that will allow them to do hot stuff on lower cost hardware and Linux does that, far outweighing any extra software dev cost. They also want something they can have the freedom to customize the OS and run on a wide range of hardware so they can differentiate their products. WM won't let them do that, but Linux gives them full control over the software and much wider choice over hardware. Finally, they want to hitch their star to an OS that innovates very quickly. The Linux community is perceived (rightly I think) as being much better in this regard than MS. It's not Symbian, but Microsoft that is going to be most threatened by the advance of Linux. Microsoft isn't going to leave the market or anything--and even a distant third place is still not bad in a market this size--but I don't see them being able to do anything to catch Linux and Symbian now.
RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
But what is the advantage to the consumer from having a Linux phone? If there is none, and a pile of disparate hardware and platforms (still running Linux, but binary incompatible) and there is lying next to it a windows phone which offers more, which one would the consumer choose? The network may be the customer, but they also have to satisfy their own customers. The main innovation that has to take place in the mobile space is integration/interoperability with other services and devices. That can only happen if you have a platform, with some uniformity. If the 10 different Linux companies can not offer that then they will continue serving the disposable phone market, while the high-end belongs to the cross-compatible, standardized OS's. Surur RE: The Penguin.
I was playing around with the pay-per-view movie box in the hotel. (I'm just the curious type.) I hit the reset button and was greeted by the familiar Penguin onscreen. It's everywhere! I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra." RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
Surer wrote: But what is the advantage to the consumer from having a Linux phone? As I said: cooler and/or cheaper hardware, innovative, differentiated software. The network may be the customer, but they also have to satisfy their own customers. Yeah, which brings me back to my original point: the sales growth of Linux phones is double that of MS phones. And we haven't even started to see them in the US yet. 2006 will be the year when Linux starts to really break out into the US and Europe. That will be the test for MS won't it? The main innovation that has to take place in the mobile space is integration/interoperability with other services and devices. Exactly. That's why vendors prefer open, standards-based platforms to closed proprietary ones. And Linux in particular is supported on so much more hardware than MS. It's amazing when you consider how new ARM Linux is compared to how long MS has been trying to do Windows on ARM.
RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
Exactly. That's why vendors prefer open, standards-based platforms to closed proprietary ones. You mean standards like .doc, .xls, .ppt, .Net , .WMA , .WMV , PlayforSure, Janus, Exchange Activesync and 18 000 applications? Do you realize with only one vendor POS has now become a proprietary solution (Its not like a corporate customer can go over to Motorola and buy a POS phone if they are not happy with the build quality of the Treo) whereas with 10's of suppliers actually producing devices WM devices ARE actually open, standard, and a real platform. Proprietary Linux phones will eat into the marketshare of Symbian, not WM. I would welcome their presence, but I don't think any customers would particularly notice whether they are there or not. I mean, how would I know it runs Linux in any case? Surur RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
Surer wrote: You mean standards like .doc, .xls, .ppt, .Net , .WMA , .WMV , PlayforSure, Janus, Exchange Activesync and 18,000 applications? Certainly. (And by the way, you and I both know that Palm OS even without Linux has better support for many of these "standards" than Microsoft.) But that kind of "standard" that derives simply from Microsoft's market power also is limiting and adds risk. What's Microsoft done for Java users on any of its platforms, just to take one example? Do you realize with only one vendor POS has now become a proprietary solution (Its not like a corporate customer can go over to Motorola and buy a POS phone if they are not happy with the build quality of the Treo) whereas with 10's of suppliers actually producing devices WM devices ARE actually open, standard, and a real platform. I think your analysis of POS being proprietary is dead on. Which is one reason a huge phone vendor like LG wouldn't give them the time of day before but joined the program now. And of course WM devices are open. But only at the application level and only for Microsoft "standards." Ask yourself: why do all WM devices look exactly the same when you turn them on? That's standardization all right, but not the kind that sells phones. Proprietary Linux phones ... I don't think any customers would particularly notice whether they are there or not. I mean, how would I know it runs Linux in any case? Well, yeah. How many people really care (or know) what OS their phone runs? They care how it works, what it costs, and what it looks like. If Linux phones can beat MS on those three fronts they'll win in the market. That's what we're seeing with these stats now.
RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
I see we agree in general, so I shall only add that for me its about the apps and the potential of the platform, so I do really want to know what the OS is. I'm sure you and the other people on this website feel the same. We are however probably not representative of the wider public, but I suspect we bear some resemblance to the smartphone early adopters. Surur RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...Timothy Rapson @ 7/30/2005 7:11:41 PM #
90% of phone users are going to be like my wife. She got a Zire 31 to play chess on and a Tracfone for our daughter to use for emergencies and very limited use. She has no programs on the Zire except the chess game. She simply won't have another monstrosity like our desktop. If some day her Tracfone runs Linux or Windows it will matter not one whit. She won't install programs and will only look for the features it includes and how cheap and stable it is. That user is where all this is headed. Will Linux or WM get there first? Hmmmm..... RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
Well, yeah. How many people really care (or know) what OS their phone runs? They care how it works, what it costs, and what it looks like. If Linux phones can beat MS on those three fronts they'll win in the market. That's what we're seeing with these stats now. And the Chinese government (and other governments) "encourages" companies to use Linux over MS. And Linux is open-source. That means that everyone and their brother can take a shot at making an OS for whatever the latest gadget is. You don't need to go begging at the door of the huge American monopoly; you can do it yourself. I think MS is going to have a heck of a time trying to compete with that in the long run. Exerpts from a Computerworld article: RE: It looks like Palm and PalmSource needs to...
If even Nokia is going over to Linux clearly MS has a problem. On the other hand competition is good. Surur 
 Article Is Misleading
Greetings, I think that this article is misleading. That Smartphones are selling well is no surprise. They're a relatively new product to most of the world, and who wouldn't want the PIM integration? But the reason that Handhelds are down is not because of the popularity of Smartphones. The reason that Handheld sales are down is because of the utterly crappy design of the recent product offerings. RE: Article Is MisleadingAdamaDBrown @ 7/29/2005 12:38:48 PM #
I agree. If you look at it by manufacturer, most of the dropoff is HP, who lost 36% of their sales compared to the first quarter. Palm was up 3%, and Dell was up 17%. Rounding out the top 5, Acer and Yakumo were WAY up, 50 and 60% range. HP's current line of iPaqs has been selling badly due to marginal new designs and high prices. Since they're the #2 individual seller, that's a sizable chunk of the market. RE: Article Is Misleading
I think you still have to wonder, though, if those "lost" HP sales went to the smartphone market? Or if they merely shifted over to Palm, Dell, or another PDA maker? In other words, if HP had produced some better products over the past year, would the overall handheld numbers have been bigger? Or would HP merely have stolen back some of Palm and Dell's sales, with the handheld market continuing to have gone down? TMann RE: Article Is Misleading
>>and Dell was up 17% Yes - but only up 17% over last quarter. Compared to last year, Dell is actually down 17%. So there is not any good news for the traditional big PPC vendors. HP really has nobody but themselves to blame with years of uninspired design - just freakin awful things these last dozen ipaqs. RE: Article Is Misleading
Or it could be translated: "Product line that is marketed the most, sells the best. News at 11..." Big freaking surprise. Maybe if Palm marketed a PDA 1/10th as much as they marketed the Treos, they might sell better. But then again, that would require them to produce a quality PDA worth pushing, instead of the multiple-hamstrung ones they currently release. :( I would love nothing more than to upgrade my T3. But there's nothing to upgrade it to that doesn't suck in too many ways. RE: Article Is Misleading
You've got that wrong way round. q1 2005 was their best quarter so far. dell
RE: Article Is MisleadingTimothy Rapson @ 7/30/2005 7:48:47 PM #
RE " RE: Article Is Misleading AdamaDBrown @ 7/29/2005 12:38:48 PM # I agree. If you look at it by manufacturer, most of the dropoff is HP, who lost 36% of their sales compared to the first quarter." Wow, have you got that right. I have to wonder who is in charge at HP. They have replaced perhaps the best product line in the history of PDAs with nearly the worse....well, the most insipid, overpriced, underfeatured set of models ever. I have no idea how they could make them look worse, run worse, have less memory, cost more, and all the rest. It is amazing. From top to bottom I can't find one reason why a consumer would buy a 1715 rather than a two-year-old 1915, a 2700 rather than a 2-year-old 2200, or any other of their models. Even the top line 4700 with VGA has that rediculous touch pad and corners just made for humans with square hands and fingers! Know any humans with those? Goodbye Christina! The Fiorina reign started with the "brilliant" merger of the money losing Compaq desktop PCs with the money making HP desktops that resulted in both losing money. It ended with these utterly laughable PPCs. It is no mystery why she is in the unemployment line. It's all academic if the PDA pie is still shrinking...The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/30/2005 7:55:47 PM #
I think you still have to wonder, though, if those "lost" HP sales went to the smartphone market? Or if they merely shifted over to Palm, Dell, or another PDA maker? In other words, if HP had produced some better products over the past year, would the overall handheld numbers have been bigger? Or would HP merely have stolen back some of Palm and Dell's sales, with the handheld market continuing to have gone down? TMann I think TMann raises a good point. I'll bet that the overall size of the PDA pie is shrinking and the different manufacturers are just cannibalizing each others' sales instead of trying to expand the market with innovative products like micro laptops, tablet PDAs, dockable mini computers, etc. And an imploding market means disaster for some manufacturers. What Palm Apologists don'seem to understand is that in the Real World, companies do not survive when both their market share and the overall market size continue to decline. While Microsoft, HP and Dell can use Windows Mobile as a "loss leader" to generate sales of their more profitible products, Palm doesn't have that luxury. Wake up, Palm. A small, "regular" cell phone is LOOOOOOOOOOONG overdue. And it's not as if it would take much effort to get one produced...
The Palm Economy = Communism™ Poor Christina/Carly!The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/30/2005 8:34:31 PM #
Goodbye Christina! The Fiorina reign started with the "brilliant" merger of the money losing Compaq desktop PCs with the money making HP desktops that resulted in both losing money. It ended with these utterly laughable PPCs. It is no mystery why she is in the unemployment line. Carly Fiorina was given over $21 MILLION to leave HP. Somehow, I don't expect to find her "in the unemployment line".
The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Article Is MisleadingTimothy Rapson @ 7/31/2005 6:13:45 PM #
I continue to be baffled and filled with disgust, hatred and frustration (both as a stock holder and a consumer) with the corporate world.
The boards of directors take their cash. The CEOs take their cash. The customers and owners get hosed....Oh, and way off topic, but of course, the politicians get their cut.
What kind of form should Palm's next phone have?Tuckermaclain @ 7/29/2005 2:06:47 PM #
I would love to see something like the T5. No keyboard. Virtual Grafitti (G1 of course). A flip cover. Something where the PDA is the main device with a 320x480 screen. A virtual phone-pad would be fine. I use the Palm alot more than the phone. While you're at it, give me two SD slots. The 650 seems to de-emphasize the PDA too much. I want a Palm with a phone, not a phone with a Palm. Would anyone else buy this? It's not like I'm asking for a Treo 650 in the days of the Visor DeLuxe--all the technology is available. HandEra might have done it had they lived longer. RE: What kind of form should Palm's next phone have?
Sounds like you're talking about a high-res version of the VisorPhone. I used one (and later the Sprint Digital Link) from the time they first came out until just a couple of years ago, so I sympathize with you. But I'm afraid virtual keypads and great big screens don't sell in a phone today any more than they did back in 2001.
RE: What kind of form should Palm's next phone have?
It sounds like you're describing a Palm version of the PPC-6601/SX66, a "full-sized, full-screened, data-centric" device. Does anyone know how those devices are selling for Cingular and Sprint? I would think that the market for those types of devices would be relatively small compared to the more phone-like Treo and iMate JAM. TMann RE: What kind of form should Palm's next phone have?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/30/2005 7:28:30 PM #
Sorry, but unless Palm is suicidal their next phone should look EXACTLY like a small, "normal" phone. Even a nice design like the Sony Ericsson P910 is way too big to sell in huge numbers. Smartphones may sound cool and sell (in low numbers) to geeks, but Not-So-Smartphones (IQ100 phones) are where the money is. By quietly slipping PalmOS into a phone that makes NO compromises in terms of size, weight and style, Palm would do a lot towards entrenching PalmOS as a viable platform. Palm needs to make a phone that looks like a Sony Ericsson T610, T630, S710a or K700i. Being able to run PalmOS apps should be a bonus that you don't have to sacrifice style/weight/size in order to obtain. It's incredible that Palm STIIL doesn't seem to understand that the average customer wants their phone to be stylish relatively compact. Note to TMann: Please don't flaunt the fact that you're using Sprint's Vision service as an ISP. Rub Sprint's nose in it, pi$$ them off and watch them crack down on this. The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: What kind of form should Palm's next phone have?
VOR: Rub Sprint's nose in it, pi$$ them off and watch them crack down on this.
Actually, I only use them for the Treo. I have Comcast for my home, and free Wi-Fi at my place of work. I don't use Sprint PCS for my Axim or my laptop. But I agree that the way it was worded does give that impression; I guess I'd better change all of my forum signatures. :) TMann
OT: Great comment about Jeff KirvinThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/31/2005 6:50:59 PM #
This was recently posted in the PIC forums. Brilliant. Jeff [Kirvin] kind of reminds me of those guys who follow around execs like Bill Gates. CEO: Those PPCs are horrible!
The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: OT: Great comment about Jeff Kirvinrcartwright @ 8/1/2005 12:09:30 AM #
VoR,
RE: OT: Great comment about Jeff Kirvin
Please grow up.
RE: OT: Great comment about Jeff Kirvin
To the moderator: Please remove stupid posts like these, flames that show the passion people have for or against Palms is OK, but this is obviously out of place. Somekind of banning to the poster would be in order as well. RE: OT: Great comment about Jeff KirvinAdrenochrome @ 8/2/2005 11:01:03 AM #
It's pretty sad when I have to tell my kid to avoid a technology site. Is anyone moderating? Hey Ryan....
So it seems I'm not the only one who thinks "moderation" is a good thing. If the mods aren't planning on deleting this post, could you at least explain why? I can't come up with any good reason why this "inflammatory, inappropriate, inane and offensive comment" hasn't yet been "edited/deleted" yet. Better yet, may I suggest that you just kill the whole thread; there's nothing here worth keeping. I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra." RE: OT: Great comment about Jeff Kirvin
I deleted it as soon as I noticed. You can always report offensive comments to me directly via the feedback forum to bring something to my attention quicker. -Ryan RE: OT: Great comment about Jeff Kirvin
please, let's not give this liar/hack/shill/con-artist/apologist/know-it-all any more recognition than he deserves. which is none. RE: OT: Great comment about Jeff KirvinThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/3/2005 4:06:24 AM #
I find the PATHETIC DRIVEL, lies, FUD and clueless rants posted regularly by Kirvin to be a LOT more offensive than anything I could ever say about him. Seriously. His delusional posts have gotten out of control in the past few months.
People like him are killing the PalmOS platform by encouraging an environment of abject mediocrity. TVoR The Palm Economy = Communism™
Or not... says Gartner
http://news.com.com/PDA+shipments+near+record+levels/2100-1047_3-5815873.html "Falling prices and wireless connectivity have breathed new life into the PDA market, with sales so far this year on pace to surpass their high-water mark in 2001." ... "The rosy outlook for PDAs seems to contradict a similar handheld report that came out from research firm IDC last week. It said that shipments of handhelds fell to 1.7 million units in the second quarter. The shift represents a sequential drop of 24.9 percent, and a year-over-year decrease of 20.8 percent. However, Gartner said it prioritizes its PDA data as a data-centric handheld computer first and a communications device second." ... "Analyst Charles Golvin with Forrester Research, which does not publish quarterly sales and shipment information, said the biggest problem for PDA makers is that the purchases coming from existing users more than newer ones." Not in my circles they aren't. Maybe if I again saw some of the innovation from 2001 that likely had a link to those sales figures... RE: Or not... says Gartner
It wasn't innovation, it was simple irrational exuberance. 2000-2001 was a very special time. In many parts of the world there is a house price bubble getting ready to burst. The economy moves in cycles, and luxury goods like high-end mobile phones and PDA's always get a list in these times.
Surur
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Only firms which makes products through listening, research, and careful labor will succeed. I hope Palm and PalmSource will shapen up on their listening and research skills. Oftenly Microsoft does a lot of listening and research within its Windows Mobile licensees and often most Microsoft licensees does a lot of listening and research, but only the best products, no matter what platform, are created through careful listening and research.
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