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Comments on: Tapwave Discontinues Zodiac Business

Tapwave, makers of the Zodiac Palm OS gaming handheld, have discontinued their Zodiac handheld business according to a posting on the company's website.
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Another one bites the dust...

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2005 12:41:15 AM # Q
Liquidation of Tapwave assets coming soon.

$149 Zodiac 2?

I'll take two, please.

The only surprise in that anyone out there is still so clueless that they think this was a surprise...

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Gone. Done. Played out.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2005 12:47:57 AM # Q
Strike 1: Tapwave's business model simply didn't make sense.

Strike 2: They never made a conservative Tungsten E-shaped model for professionals using the specs of the Zodiac 2.

Strike 3: Sony PSP (and to a lesser extent, Nintendo DS).

What a waste of so much talent and money! If only Palm could have used Tapwave's software, engineering and better quality manufacturing, maybe PalmOS would be in a lot better shape as a platform these days.

Much like HandEra, Tapwave offered advanced hardware specs and solid software, yet somehow remained utterly clueless about marketing, even to the bitter end. The desperate attempt to reinvent themselves as a media player was embarassing to watch. The irony is that a Zodiac 2 + The Core Pocket Media Player (can directly access the Zod's ATI videocard for video playback!) + a couple 1 GB SD cards absolutely DESTROYS Palm's new LifeDrive in terms usability.


The PalmOS platform is reeling on the ropes and the K.O. punch would be an announcement of a Windows Mobile Treo. Any. Day. Now.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Foo Fighter @ 7/28/2005 12:48:24 AM # Q
If you really want to see something funny, some idiot in 1src's forum believes that this is hoax created by hackers! Oh, ouch...my stomach is in pain from incessant laughter.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Another one bites the dust...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2005 1:14:22 AM # Q
;-O

Really Bad People did this.

J.K. probably will blame you...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Another one bites the dust...
hkklife @ 7/28/2005 1:15:53 AM # Q
T5 formfactor with Zod 2 specs. While they are at it, Tapwave should've added user-selectable Graffiti 1/2 (use the money to license the G1 libraries from Xerox instead of that lame shovelware racing game that came with the Zod) and an option to turn OFF the lame Tapwave launcher and revert to the BONE STOCK PALM OS5 launcher. Oh yeah, have an internal stylus silo.
Bingo. That would've saved Tapwave or at least bought 'em another year.

Even minus the analog stick and one of the SD slots, such a device would've been a KILLER machine in every sense of the word.

Did anyone ever think a year ago that the lame duck T5 would (patched) be left holding the title of the best Palm device currently in production/on the market? Folks, it's getting grim...

Btw, Tapwave's perpetual "spring has sprung" promotion/motiff on their website kinda gave me some signals something was dead wrong with 'em...here we are sweltering in the brown grass of late July and they are still showing the green grass of spring on their site.

P.S. I wonder what'll happen to Scott & the gang at Tapland? How long will the lights stay on at Tapwave.com? I guess no one wanted to partner up with them to license "Zodiac" technology for next-gen devices!?!

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Foo Fighter @ 7/28/2005 1:18:06 AM # Q
No, he'll write some longwinded article on "Why Tapwave really isn't dead".

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: Another one bites the dust...
jkirvin @ 7/28/2005 1:19:06 AM # Q
Nice one, Kent. I'll remember this when you try to say you don't attack me out of nowhere.

RE: Another one bites the dust...
hkklife @ 7/28/2005 1:24:18 AM # Q
Anyone remember when Tapwave released that 2nd wi-fi SDIO card driver...the one w/ improved support for the wi-fi + 256mb Sandisk cards? I called that, alongside the freebie Palmsource e-mail client, Tapwave's farewell gift to the community and their last gasp. When the damm car charger from Tapwave never materialized (and the hard case was barely produced) I knew the writing was on the wall. Oh yeah, playable game demos disappearing from their site months and months ago didn't help matters at all.

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Foo Fighter @ 7/28/2005 1:31:23 AM # Q
>> "The PalmOS platform is reeling on the ropes and the K.O. punch would be an announcement of a Windows Mobile Treo. Any. Day. Now."

I'm afraid to set my Treo down too hard for fear that vibrations will travel through the earth's crust, making their way to PalmSource headquarters, collapsing the shaky foundation they set upon. Seriously, is there anything further that could make this platform look any more hopeless? I'm beginning to think Microsoft is actually paying PalmSource and its licensees to implode. It's all too perfect.

You can bet Windows Mobile based products are in the pipeline at Palm. Their only concern now is offering what the customer wants, not in cultish platform ideology. Palm's money is in selling hardware, not PalmOS..especially not a DYING PalmOS.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Another one bites the dust...
hkklife @ 7/28/2005 1:46:05 AM # Q
It's funny how it's basically Palm Inc's (the old Palm Inc. under Yankowski, Benhamou, Bradley & co. ) fault that we/they are in this mess now...and they will be the ONLY ones to survive the maelstrom (semi) intact...then hitch their buggy to the Micro$oft wagon. They're like ****roaches--and everyone's gotta love a survivor, right?


RE: Another one bites the dust...
AdamaDBrown @ 7/28/2005 2:06:35 AM # Q
Jeff, after the ludicrously immature way you've been behaving towards others lately, you are the LAST person who can claim Marquess of Queensbury rules.

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Foo Fighter @ 7/28/2005 2:19:24 AM # Q
Oh my, the lunacy has spread to this forum as well. Jeff, after dealing with your irrational, and frankly bizarre, behaviour on 1src, I'll just repeat what I said to you on that forum; misinterpretations on your part do not equal lies on my part. You still refuse to admit wrongdoing. You accused me of something I never said...words I never uttered. I used "Not quite" in the context of "Not quite the whole story", which was completely accurate. And I made that clear..several times. But you insisted on behaving like a moody juvenile, falsely accusing me of lies. If anyone is guilty of bending the truth it's you, in the way you attempted to portray PalmOS outselling Windows Mobile by a wide margin while hiding the real story. I called you on that, and it made you mad. You even accused me, in classic McCarthy form, of having a "hidden agenda". Don't listen to Kent, he may be one of them! Very mature.

Honestly, I don't know what your game is, whether you really are panhandling for a job at Palm, or just a foaming zealot, but frakly I don't find your behavior charming. You often criticise PIC as a place of bullies, but you seem behave that way yourself at times. I suggest the doctor take some of his own medical advice.



-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Another one bites the dust...
abosco @ 7/28/2005 2:51:27 AM # Q
It's a shame. They made a few nice products and then that was it.

So much potential. So much RAM! At a time when it was sorely needed!

I recall a few weeks ago there was an article stating Tapwave was shifting the company's focus, and someone started a thread stating companies make their boldest statements just before going out. Gekko or Voice Of A Prick said it. Either one, it doesn't matter. Good call.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637

RE: Another one bites the dust...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2005 3:01:57 AM # Q
Kirvin went off the deep end a long time ago. He has ZERO credibility in the PalmOS community and his constant threats to try and silence those who disagree with his bizarre statements seem to be getting more and more dramatic as time goes by.

This thread at a different site was downright creepy:

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92694&page=6&pp=15


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Another one bites the dust...
sr4 @ 7/28/2005 3:12:26 AM # Q
Foofighter said about Kirvin:
You often criticize PIC as a place of bullies, but you seem behave that way yourself at times. I suggest the doctor take some of his own medical advice.

I'm sure after the embarrassing exposure of Jeff's lack of insight on his own website, he's particularly touchy of being challenged or having to prove his statements. He/Reggie deleted every factual or insightfully post I made at 1src in an apparent attempt to protect their users from the truth.

Pity they cant protect PalmSource licensees in the same manner.

Surur

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Scott R @ 7/28/2005 10:58:47 AM # Q
T5 formfactor with Zod 2 specs. While they are at it, Tapwave should've added user-selectable Graffiti 1/2 (use the money to license the G1 libraries from Xerox instead of that lame shovelware racing game that came with the Zod) and an option to turn OFF the lame Tapwave launcher and revert to the BONE STOCK PALM OS5 launcher. Oh yeah, have an internal stylus silo.
Bingo. That would've saved Tapwave or at least bought 'em another year.

I disagree. That would have been another me-too PDA. Supposedly sales of those are declining. Would it have been a good idea for them to create something like that *in addition* to the landscape-focused Zodiac model to appeal to the stuffy PDA traditionalists? Sure.

I'm also curious about the comments I see here from a couple of people criticizing Tapwave's "business model." Please clarify. Tapwave's business model seemed halfway decent to me. Had they gotten huge gaming companies to sign on and sell through the Tapwave store, they would have gotten recurring revenue from those sales. Tapwave's problem can be summed up as either a bad marketing team, not enough money to market it properly, or both.

As for what's to become of Tapland...you'll have to wait. I'm not sure myself. And I haven't written anything on the front page about this yet as I'm still trying to sort out the details (though I suspect that I've gotten all the info that I will get). And yes, believe it or not, Tapwave may indeed *not* be dead. It's worth noting that their web site states that "the Zodiac business" (rather than "Tapwave") has been shut down. I suspect that they're in the process of trying to find a buyer for their intellectual property. Ideally, someone with deep pockets would come along and re-release the Zodiac (and some next-gen models), but I too think that's wishful thinking. More likely, someone like Palm or PalmSource will pick up bits and pieces (and possibly people) and integrate it into their own future projects.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Foo Fighter @ 7/28/2005 11:16:16 AM # Q
>> "More likely, someone like Palm or PalmSource will pick up bits and pieces (and possibly people) and integrate it into their own future projects."

You have GOT to be kidding me? PalmSource isn't in a position to pick up ANYTHING or anyone, except perhaps rubbish along the highway. As for Palm..why would they want this company? The Zodiac was unsuccessful. Buying them up and slapping a new brand name on the device won't make it anymore popular.

Second, Tapwave is going out of business. Ueker and Associates handles bankruptcy cleanup. They're finished.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Another one bites the dust...
JarJar @ 7/28/2005 11:20:53 AM # Q
The problem is not bad marketing or a bad product. Certainly there are some problems in the product but it wouldn't have made a difference.

A company like Tapwave can't get gaming companies to sign on because they have no relationships and no deep pockets to do it. Just like Hollywood and professional sports, successful gaming requires [human] network connections, golf course handshakes and huge amounts of up front money. An excellent product cannot be successful without backroom deals.

Tapwave was doomed from day one because they had few relationships and little credibility with big game makers. Microsoft can jumpstart an X-box against Sony and Nintendo, but it takes obscene amounts of upfront $$ and heavy weight arm-twisting even for MS.

TapWave is like a little league team playing MLB. No matter how well they play--it is impossible for them to win.

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Scott R @ 7/28/2005 11:29:53 AM # Q
You have GOT to be kidding me? PalmSource isn't in a position to pick up ANYTHING or anyone, except perhaps rubbish along the highway. As for Palm..why would they want this company? The Zodiac was unsuccessful. Buying them up and slapping a new brand name on the device won't make it anymore popular.

Well it all depends on how much the Tapwave folks want for their IP, but PalmSource could be interested in whatever progress they made on getting Linux running on Palm-compatible hardware. And as for them being unsuccessful, we all can only speculate as to what the reasons for that were. I personally believe it had more to do with poor brick & mortar distribution and insufficient marketing. You're certainly welcome to have your own opinion and to believe that the Zodiac platform itself was unappealing, but I definitely would disagree with that.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Foo Fighter @ 7/28/2005 11:36:12 AM # Q
Palm doesn't need Tapwave engineers to create new product categories or convergence devices. They are quite capable of producing such products in-house with existing talent. Heck, they can even outsource design to OEMs.

As for Zodiac's lack of popularity, the brick and mortal distribution may have contributed to its demise, but generally I believe it came down to consumer disinterest. In stores that did carry Zodiac, they weren't selling well. Go online to sites like Amazon or C|NET's shopper.com and you see Zodiac always trailed the list in terms of popularity, often behind products that had long been discontinued. On Pricegrabber it was outranked by the Palm IIIxe for crying out loud! Nobody really wanted this thing other than hardcore PalmOS enthusiasts. The Zodiac was destined from the start to be a niche player, which is fine in a much larger market. But the PDA market itself is a niche segment. And being a niche within a niche simply isn't a sustainable business model.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Another one bites the dust...
sr4 @ 7/28/2005 11:43:19 AM # Q
I agree with Jarjar
It not about the technical ability of the hardware, its about giving the developers enough confidence that they will get a return on their investment in the games they develop, and that they could not make more money developing for another platform.

Even Microsoft has a problem with this on the X-box. I dont see how Tapwave ever stood a chance.

Surur

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Scott R @ 7/28/2005 12:01:04 PM # Q
But Kent, those rankings are based on sales from various sources. So, again, palmOne/Palm had a lot more online stores selling their PDAs as well. Plus, it had the better brand recognition (partially thanks to their better B&M distribution - most people buying online will have already seen a Palm device locally). Getting the Zodiac known required both money and skills, both of which the Tapwave team was clearly lacking in.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -
RE: Another one bites the dust...
treo007 @ 7/28/2005 12:09:04 PM # Q
The cynicism practiced by so many of the regular posters here would be more comical if wasn't so sad. It seems that many of you, I'm not mentioning any names, want Palm Source to fail. These same folks are constantly trying to "out-clever" one another in their cynical anologies, predictions, etc. about Palm and it's future. It's lame...

It's not as if the Zodiac was a big mover for Palm Source anyway. How exactly does this spell doom for Palm Source? For what it's worth, Palm (which of course exclusively uses Palm OS) just shipped more handhelds worldwide than HP. And this didn't even include the Treo.

Over time it doesn't matter as handhelds are going the way of the dinosour. If you ask me, Palm Source is in good position as the Treo is only going to continue gaining momentum. This phone wouldn't work the way it does with a WM or even Symbian OS. I'm anxious to see what the Linux flavor looks offers as well.



RE: It seems that many of you...want Palm Source to fail
JarJar @ 7/28/2005 1:06:57 PM # Q
I don't think that anybody here wants Palm Source to fail. (Why would they be on a Palm fansite).

I do think that people are bitter because four years ago, all the rah rah "yes-men" enabled the management to pursue flawed strategies. The whistle-blowers weren't heard even though they had many valid complaints.

Today, the doomsayers are just venting, but this also doesn't help Palm either.


Actually I agree with treo007-the Zodiac was never a big mover and neither helps nor hurts Palm Source. However, some people take the demise of the Zodiac as a symbol of other failures.

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Foo Fighter @ 7/28/2005 1:47:20 PM # Q
>> "The cynicism practiced by so many of the regular posters here would be more comical if wasn't so sad. It seems that many of you, I'm not mentioning any names, want Palm Source to fail. These same folks are constantly trying to "out-clever" one another in their cynical anologies, predictions, etc. about Palm and it's future. It's lame..."

It isn't a matter of want, it's a matter of facing reality. PalmSource is dying, and the Palm platform is shrinking. Unlike other Palm enthusiasts (zealots might be a better description) I choose not to bury my head in the sand and pretend everything is coming up roses. Others are free to do so, but I don't generally don't believe in prayer chains.

I look at PalmSource, and the larger mobile device space, with a high degree of detachment. You have to, otherwise you always apply your own emotional desires where they do not apply. View PalmSource or mobile devices through the eyes a fan boy and you'll misinterpret reality every time. You WANT PalmSource to succeed, therefore you think they ARE succeeding.

I don't have a vested interest in all this, other than hoping PalmOS will weather the storm. I view the mobile space from a business perspective, not as a fanboy end user..even though I kind of still am. The business reality is that they aren't going to survive. They are cash starved, and burning through money faster than they earn it. The stock is trading at the bottom of the barrel, Cobalt was collasal failure that robbed PalmSource of valuable resources (not to mention the most critical factor: TIME). The entire survival of PalmOS now depends on an OS that is two years out, an eternity in tech terms.

Add to this the fact that Windows Mobile is now ahead of PalmOS, and you have a recipe for failure. None of this would be a problem if PalmOS were still sitting on 80-90% market share. But those days are long gone. And PalmOS are already losing against larger players. Truthfully the only thing holding PalmOS upright at this point is Treo. It's highly popular, and highly successful product. Peel back that layer of the onion and you see that everything below that is tanking. And I'm betting LifeDrive is failing as well. Largely because the market is shifting away from PDAs to Smartphones, at nearly breakneck speed. I predicted this was going to happen, but never THIS FAST. At the rate of PDA decline it's doubtful any vendor (including Palm) will still be making traditional PDAs after next year.

That's the long and short of it. So..am I supposed to sit back and whisper sweet nothings into everyone's ear? Perhaps I and others are sometimes TOO cynical, but when there is little to be positive about, cynicism is all that's left. Give me something positive and raise you. Otherwise you're just complaining that we have the audacity to discuss PalmSource's misfortunes.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Another one bites the dust...
treo007 @ 7/28/2005 2:17:58 PM # Q
You asked if you're being TOO cynical. The answer is yes. It's still a platform with a huge user base. It's also more suited to smartphones than it's competition (yes, even more so in my opinion than Symbian).

What makes you think I'm not looking at this from a business perspective either? The industry itself is not a huge business anyway, so someone like Palm Source can more or less continue to fly under the radar until the real growth starts (see smart phones).

I know you think you have all the answers (or at least your posts pretty much regularly come off that way). But how is that you think you can accurately predict this? Even most investment bank analysts don't pretend to be that kind of soothsayer. Tell me, are you putting your money where your mouth is and shorting the stock?

They've got enough business to hang around. I don't think the majority of the huge installed base of Treo users for instance really want to be forced to switch to WM anytime soon.

FYI, it's not like MS is making any money of their entire mobile division right now anyway.

RE: Another one bites the dust...
rsc1000 @ 7/28/2005 6:08:45 PM # Q
>>As for Zodiac's lack of popularity, the brick and mortal distribution may have contributed to its demise, but generally I believe it came down to consumer disinterest.

The consumers weren't disinterested - you have to know something exists before you can have a lack of interest in it!

Newsflash! Kirvin roasted at 1src
sr4 @ 7/28/2005 6:17:23 PM # Q
Jeff Kirvin goes too far:

Kirvin forgets 1src=Cliesource, calls Clie's "Poorly thought out bag of features" thats "dead". Will likely be forced to apologize, or find a new playground!

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php%3ft=92956&page=3&pp=15

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Foo Fighter @ 7/28/2005 7:26:43 PM # Q
Marketing was definitely a HUGE factor. But that requires huge investment money which Tapwave didn't have. But this is all water under the bridge. Woulda...shoulda...coulda. It's over. Time to move on.

What the heck do I do with my Z2 now? If I ebay it I'll get very little for it. Can you install Linux on a Zodiac? ;-)

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Another one bites the dust...
hkklife @ 7/28/2005 8:16:35 PM # Q
Foo;

Use it until the battery/screen crap out. Buy yerself two cheap 2gb SD cards and use it as Tapwave proclaimed its final intended purpose to be---a portable multimedia machine!!

TCMP natively supports the ATI chipset on the Zod now so you'll have some lovely hardware video acceleration.
Go and stock up on spare styli or a case or something while you're at it.



Kirvin's now just going for shock value
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/29/2005 12:26:57 AM # Q
Like that terminally tiresome shock jock, Howard Stern, Kirvin now seems to be saying anything he can to just provoke a response from people. Kirvin is by definition a TROLL..

Funny to see him repeatedly change his position again. In the space of two weeks he's gone from saying that PalmOS multitasks to saying PalmOS sorta multitasks to saying who cares if PalmOS doesn't multitask since it works adequately for many people to saying there's no need for PDAs that offer anything more than the bare bones that Palm's PDAs offer. His rationalizing has an eerily child-like quality about it. I suppose ignorance/denial is bliss and he must be quite blissful.

Kirvin seems determined to ignore the facts that people prefer value and features for their money and Palm's crappy hardware and reliance on Primitive PalmOS cripples Palm's ability to compete with Windows Mobile. It seems obvious that even more users will migrate from PalmOS if this situation stays the same. If Palm wants to survive, they must become OS agnostic + offer products running Windows Mobile that will give customers access to advanced functionality. (Imagine a Treo 700 or [FIXED] LifeDrive running some of these apps: Opera or NetFront, Pocket Informant, Wisbar, TextMaker, The Core Pocket Media Player, ListPro, Pocket Artist, Skype, CalliGrapher or PenReader, CoPilot Live, Pocket Quicken, RepliGo, Resco Explorer 2003, Nyditot Virtual Display, etc.) With native multitasking and finally some apps worth using, Windows Mobile becomes a platform that even Palm Fanboys will take a serious look at.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Kesh @ 7/29/2005 10:59:44 PM # Q
I have to echo one statement from above: with TCPMP and a couple large SD cards, the Zodiac is [i]excellent[/i] for watching movies. I got stuck in a hospital waiting room for most of a day, but luckily I had a couple films ripped to my Zodiac, so I wasn't totally bored while waiting. Full screen 480x320 video at 30 FPS is nothing to sneeze at.

RE: Another one bites the dust...
Timothy Rapson @ 7/30/2005 7:54:06 AM # Q
VOR wrote "(Imagine a Treo 700 or [FIXED] LifeDrive running some of these apps: Opera or NetFront,"

I can imagine it, then I imagine the new Axim X60v with a 20 gig hard disk that is more compact and sells for $100 less. Palms whole life had depended upon huge margins. They could never compete with Dell on that. I have no idea what they do with the money, but imagine how little it cost them to have a TE2 made? Or worse yet, a T5. They won't compete in WM arena.

As noted elsewhere, I could definitely go for Microsoft releasing a version of Windows Mobile for a gaming device like the Zodiac. In fact, just fix a couple hardware flaws and flash WM 2005 onto a VGA screened Zodiac right now, and you would have a better game system (IMHO) than the PSP.

Reply to this comment

Can't say we didn't see it coming.

AdamaDBrown @ 7/28/2005 2:13:35 AM # Q
Tapwave was a doomed company from the start. Their design, their business model, and their complete inability to adapt marked them for an early death. Then there was the death spiral. The sudden attempts to spin their product as an iPod killer, or a multimedia jukebox. The almost delusional PR statements, trying to turn perception into reality. It'll go down as a textbook example of a company's slow implosion.

RE: Can't say we didn't see it coming.
sr4 @ 7/28/2005 3:22:19 AM # Q
The sudden attempts to spin their product as an iPod killer, or a multimedia jukebox. The almost delusional PR statements, trying to turn perception into reality. It'll go down as a textbook example of a company's slow implosion.

Does this remind anyone of a certain product called the LifeDrive?

Surur

RE: Can't say we didn't see it coming.
InsGuy @ 7/28/2005 10:56:37 AM # Q
Does this remind anyone of a certain product called the LifeDrive?

Surur

EXACTLY!

All good things...

RE: Can't say we didn't see it coming.
scstraus2 @ 7/29/2005 6:01:26 AM # Q
Tapwave would have had a real winner on their hands if they could have added a big hard drive like 40gb to a next generation device. The PSP still can't do docs and pda type functionality, and if they really had something that was a cross between a PDA, game console, and iPod, plenty of people would buy it. As it is, it was just too close to what the PSP was offering, and no one buys standalone PDA's anymore.

Reply to this comment

zodiac != tapwave

ardiri @ 7/28/2005 3:55:58 AM # Q
i thought i'd put a little comment here regarding this.

mainly because i've worked so closely with tapwave in the past; and, i think some people maybe taking this news a little the wrong way when dealing with tapwave and the zodiac.

tapwave made it clear; in a recent interview with tapland - that it will be discontinuing its zodiac line. this is not a shock; and, the announcement on the tapwave site surely just makes that happen. this means, that any zodiac related assets within the company will be liquidated and sold off to external parties.

this doesn't mean that tapwave; the company is necessarially going out of business. they have more than enough right to sell their zodiac concept to recover assets/losses from running the zodiac business. with this in place; tapwave may be able to start focusing on additional markets and/or products.

a good example of how this has happened before is handera. handera- used to product palmos handhelds. they then stopped making them and as a result exist purely in the market as a 3rd party consulting company (working for palmone/palmsource and the alphasmart company).

until i hear from byron connell personally that tapwave inc. is liquidating itself as a company - there still is a future for tapwave as a company; just not with the zodiac product line.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: zodiac != tapwave
mbuhboot @ 7/28/2005 5:53:08 AM # Q
I second Aaron's thoughts - I think he is basically right - and the revised homepage just manifest what they publicaly enough. They have not shutdown tapwave inc, they shutdown a product line and operation related to it and they are willing to support their customers.

No wonder zodiac have no future with Sony PSP out in the market. As others say, if they can design one of the following, I think that many companies will be considering branding it:
1. Lifedrive like design, slimmer, no HD, 512MB flash, WIFI + BT and sliding keyboard.
2. Mio 168 like device (integrated GPS) with 3.8" or even 4" device - strong speaker and a none propietery GPS receiver (unlike the aging Garmin iQue 3600)

Moshe

RE: zodiac != tapwave
ardiri @ 7/28/2005 6:01:56 AM # Q
They have not shutdown tapwave inc, they shutdown a product line and operation related to it and they are willing to support their customers.

i could be wrong tho - i know they were planning on doing some OEM work; if they are selling the zodiac 1/2 concept as we know it - or, any future works they are working on is yet to be known.

at palmsource devkon, i was shown linux running on a tapwave zodiac - and, i had some interesting discussions regarding the future of tapwave. tapwave selling the zodiac concept and bringing in an external mediator (finance company) - tells me they want to get what they can from the product line; without its further demise bringing down the whole company.

No wonder zodiac have no future with Sony PSP out in the market.

i own zodiacs and a PSP - and, they are relatively the same when it comes to working with the units themselves. the PSP has a nicer screen, but, resolution wise isn't much different (480x272 vs 480x320) - CPU's are similar 200Mhz ARM vs 222Mhz (can be clocked at 333Mhz). the biggest downfall i see with the PSP is the lack of official support for homebrew/custom development.

tapwave made it too open - allowing open source/freeware projects to take over the market and discourage 3rd party developers from investing time into the zodiac; but, PSP is going the other extreme - i would like to create commercial downloadale software for the PSP (ie: port my games), but there doesn't seem to be a feasible solution for this right now.

before i get flammed; while emulator development is great - its what kills a platform. if SONY could control what was released by 3rd parties (even downloadable); they could tap into a larger market. who says the sony browser in 2.0 is better than one a 3rd party developer can write themselves?


---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

RE: zodiac != tapwave
Kojak71 @ 7/28/2005 7:36:01 AM # Q
I think that Tapwave's lack of success in the marketplace was down to the marketing of the product. It was naive to think that they could have competed with the hype of the impending release of the Sony PSP. Realising that, they shifted their device focus away from gaming, to multimedia, and yet they failed market this and failed to release a suite of programs that would take advantage of the Zodiac's hardware. Although excellent programs like TCPMP exist, the whole process of getting a DVD to play on the Zodiac is too much of a hurdle for the general buying public. They should have made a one stop application that takes all the guess work out of this.

But the major focus was lack of advertising. Had their been an advert saying, this is a "Palm" device that also acts like a iPod, and acts like a portable movie player, (and maybe also a games machine). Something like Palm + iPod + Movies + Doom = Zodiac (copyright infringement not withstanding). They relied far too much on word of mouth and some computer magazine reviews.

I hear what people say about accessories like car chargers, cases, GPS, etc. and although I would love to have these for my unit, these accessories appeal to only a percentage of buyers.

RE: zodiac != tapwave
StatCoder.com @ 7/28/2005 9:24:01 AM # Q
"If you have an outstanding claim with the company, Ueker and Associates will be contacting you shortly."

This sounds like a bankruptcy or threatened bankruptcy to me. I'm not sure it matters much to PIC readers what Tapwave corporate entity decides to do. As far as the retail PDA business is concerned, they will be as gone as Handera is.

RE: zodiac != tapwave
palmato @ 7/28/2005 10:32:49 AM # Q
> tapwave made it too open - allowing open source/freeware projects
> to take over the market and discourage 3rd party developers from
> investing time into the zodiac; but, PSP is going the other
> extreme - i would like to create commercial downloadale software
> for the PSP (ie: port my games), but there doesn't seem to be a
> feasible solution for this right now.

Interesting comment. My personal feeling has always been that openness of a platform would encourage its success. For instance java made free jdk available from day one and gained a lot from free IDE (forte, netbeans and eclipse). The MacOs also was quite open and developers loved it, though tools were not free.

But maybe game development and marketing has different rules. I also wonder whether the real issue here is name recognition. Tapwave and Palm have none in the gaming world, unlike Sony.

--------------------------
Waiting for a TT successor

RE: zodiac != tapwave
radleyp @ 7/28/2005 12:26:21 PM # Q
Perhaps it's my lawyer background, but in my opinion, Ardiri, you and others are not reading this text as written. The last sentence states quite clearly that if someone has a claim "against the company" he/she must contact a third party. This means that there won't be a company around to go after. How can this mean anything other than Tapland/Tapwave are already gone? I must add that I am not in the least surprised by this announcement. When months ago the company announced that no new models would appear until next year (an eternity in this business), I knew they were in very serious trouble. And then a developer friend of mine told me he would not develop for the Zodiac, because he did not see that it would be around very long. Moreover, unlike a lot of others contributing to this thread, I never really understood the Zodiac concept: a combination gaming device/PIM is schizophrenic. What does gaming have to do with scheduling? Philippe Radley

RE: zodiac != tapwave
ardiri @ 7/28/2005 2:10:08 PM # Q
i received this email earlier today:


    Date: 7/27/2005 13:53:44 -0700
    From: "Joyce" <joyce@tapwave.com>
    Reply-to: <joyce@tapwave.com>
    Subject: Update on Tapwave

    I’m sorry to inform you that the Zodiac business was discontinued as of July 25th 2005. On behalf of Tapwave Inc., Uecker & Associates will be liquidating the company’s assets and managing outstanding account balances.

    If you have an outstanding account balance (accounts payable or receivable) or an interest in an asset purchase, please contact XXXX XXXX directly at:

    Uecker & Associates, Inc.
    Assignee for Tapwave
    xxx xxxxx Street, xxxxx xxx
    San Francisco, CA xxxxx
    Tel (415) xxx-xxxx
    Fax (415) xxx-xxxx
    E-mail XXXXX@XXXXXX.com

    We thank you for your past interest and support and apologize for any inconvenience or potential business loss that this may have caused.

    Sincerely,

    Joyce Morrell & the Tapwave Team

it does seem the company is disolving - i'm just wondering whats going to happen with the bits of research/fun they were doing and if that is going to be involved in the sale or if the tapwave employees are considering starting a fresh somewhere?

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

Wake up! Tapwave is DEAD.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/28/2005 11:28:24 PM # Q
it does seem the company is disolving...

No DUH.

Uecker & Associates is a local company that handles liquidation of the assets of failed companies that are trying to dance around actually filing for bankruptcy. There aren't a lot of cherries worth picking from Tapwave's long-dead carcass and I can't see Palm taking the chance on implementing any of Tapwave's advanced code into a future Palm device.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7990#109996


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: zodiac != tapwave
smap77 @ 7/29/2005 1:56:03 AM # Q
Funny, I just drove by their building this weekend and thought, "How much longer will they last?" Odds-on that Google takes over their building by the end of the summer...

Ques: "What does gaming have to do with scheduling?"
ackmondual @ 8/1/2005 4:10:54 AM # Q
radleyp @ 7/28/2005 12:26:21 PM #

.............
Moreover, unlike a lot of others contributing to this thread, I never really understood the Zodiac concept: a combination gaming device/PIM is schizophrenic. What does gaming have to do with scheduling? Philippe Radley

Nothing perse, but some ppl would want a device where they could play games, but also look up phone numbers, jot down ideas, and check out their schedule. It'd be more cumbersome to have to carry around 2 devices to do that. And this scheme isn't as uncommon as you think. Many smartphones have gaming and PIM functions built in, and those ppl use both heavily, and buy their fair share of games for it.

[signature0]
the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse
[/signature0]

[signature1]
My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71 --> Tungsten T3 (with 5 of 6 screws still remaining) --> zodiac 2?
[/signature1]

RE: zodiac != tapwave
RoadKnight @ 8/15/2005 6:27:28 PM # Q
The remaining cool bits/inventory/misc hardware have been disposed of at auction. A co-worker of mine just picked up the remaining Zodiac-related physical assets of Tapwave, Inc.

I saw the bid sheet they were sending around and really, gang, they were selling off everything short of the light fixtures. I'm getting a couple Zods and related stuff from him myself.

Which doesn't mean they are done as a company. It doesn't cost much for a company to continue to exist on paper in some lawyer's file cabinet while the principals all yak over next steps while soaking in the hot tub(s) @ their respective Portola Valley spreads.


RE: zodiac = tapwave
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/15/2005 11:05:59 PM # Q
Tapwave is dead. Coming soon to an eBay store near you. Their
IP is worthless and competition has shut their window of opportunity forever


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Reply to this comment

Still a shock

mikecane @ 7/28/2005 8:15:10 AM # Q
Despite what all the posts above say.

RE: Still a shock
Frenchie @ 7/28/2005 9:37:30 AM # Q
I can't believe it. Right after i buy a Zodiac to. This is terrible. The Zodiac was/is an awesome PDA. Long live the Zodiac. Now to see the crying over at Tapwave.

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p
RE: Still a shock
InsGuy @ 7/28/2005 11:01:27 AM # Q
I kind of knew this was coming, but I'm still sad. My wife LOVES her Z2, and she regards her pda as one of the best Palm OS devices available.

However, I'm even more saddened by the fact that this company had SOOOO much potential, and it squandered it all away because they could never find TRUE focus in what they wanted their device to be. So much money and talent were wasted, and now there is no real Palm competition.

Very sad! :(

All good things...

RE: Still a shock
joad @ 7/28/2005 3:09:18 PM # Q
I had the same impression when I first saw the Zodiac that I had when the Handspring Visor came out.

On the Visor, it was immediately obvious to me that the proprietary "Springboard" was destined to be a flop. One proprietary slot for I/O and storage eventually will be a failure. The rollout for the "datalink" had me amazed they were missing the obvious: you NEVER design a cell phone that is useless if you take it out of the PDA... If you are marketing to a doctor that needs access to a PDR springboard, he/she's basically without phone when he/she is reading the PDR. Handspring recovered enough to integrate what they learned into the Treo (and killed off the Springboard in favor of the SD standard), but if they had begun with an industry standard to begin with they might have bought out Palm (instead of the opposite).

On to the Zodiac: On paper it looked excellent: dedicated video chip, vast amounts of REAL RAM, large hi-res screen, TWO indstry standard slots (1 SDIO)... BUT- and this killed it more than the all the "gaming" issues people have brought up: it was a huge sacrifice to use that oversized device with stylus on the obverse as a PDA... In other words, it was a "gaming device" FIRST, with PDA function almost as an afterthought. Too big for the pocket, styled too much like a gameboy, and (this is where the gaming comments apply) too small a company to compete strictly in the "gaming" device economy. Had they designed it (or made a third device) with same specs but PRIMARILY as a PDA design (perhaps with a "gaming" hardware "add-on) then they would have had a shot at the market.

Once you are locked in at a hardware level, your mistakes are pretty much "set in stone." Palm discovered this with their stupid bumbling "upgrade" to the Treo line using the same amounts of physical RAM. Firmware fixes slightly improve the 650 memory to function nearly as well as the 1-1/2 year old 600, but elementary problems with the hardware were overlooked and the 650 sales are still suffering because of it.

Luckily (or unluckily)Palm has deeper pockets with which to hide their mistakes, and they may be able to bring out another Treo model that REALLY improves on the Treo 600 someday. Maybe they can hire some of those Tapwave consultants to test their memory in the real world, instead of whatever dream world PalmOne used to figure that essentially 14MB usable (originally) was enough....



RE: Still a shock
Scott R @ 7/28/2005 5:29:43 PM # Q
Actually, the Zodiac is *not* too big for a pocket. It's smaller than that Nokia 770 everyone seems to be drooling over and isn't much different in size from my first PPC (a Compaq iPaq 3630). Pretty close in size (thinner actually) than a LifeDrive, too.

The belief that the Zodiac was "too big" was a widely propogated one and this is where their lack of a brick and mortar presence hurt them. I can't count the number of times I've heard new Zodiac owners say, "Wow, it's not nearly as big as I thought it would be."

I agree that it's not well suited to traditional portrait-mode stylus entry. It's a great device for developers who want to try something new and design untraditional PDA apps that are optimized for a landscape two-handed experience.

Spam over. ;)

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Still a shock... if you're a crackhead living in a cave.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/29/2005 2:44:22 AM # Q
And to The Zodiac Killer: the Zods WERE too big. And the dorky joystick and awkward handling killed the Zods as a serious PDA choice for executives.

The Sony CLIE TH55 remains the best portrait-style PDA EVER made. You are not worthy.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Still a shock
mikecane @ 7/29/2005 9:18:17 AM # Q
Why don't you kill yourself? Millions will cheer.

RE: Still a shock
Scott R @ 7/29/2005 9:56:43 AM # Q
And to The Zodiac Killer: the Zods WERE too big. And the dorky joystick and awkward handling killed the Zods as a serious PDA choice for executives.How do you define an executive? Would this just be the CEOs and CFOs? If so, that's hardly a big enough market to be worth targetting. If you're talking about white collar workers, well you're simply wrong as I'm one of them and so are a large percentage of Tapland's userbase.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -
[generic joe sixpack reference]
StatCoder.com @ 7/29/2005 3:47:46 PM # Q
[Insert text for generic joe sixpack reference]
RE: Still a shock
InsGuy @ 7/29/2005 5:00:01 PM # Q
Why don't you kill yourself? Millions will cheer.

I agree :).

All good things...

RE: Still a shock
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/30/2005 4:34:09 PM # Q
How do you define an executive? Would this just be the CEOs and CFOs?

Anyone for whom it would look stupid to take out a PDA with a joystick during a business meeting/dealing with a client/seeing a patient/etc, etc. [i.e. most "grown ups" that have serious jobs in which their image acutally matters.]

Tapwave's decision to eschew proressionals looking for Zodiac 2 specs in a Tungsten E body was a HUGE mistake. Had they simply released the design I'd proposed, they would probably would not only be in business - they'd be thriving. I emailed Lim about this when he was starting out, but he chose to ignore my advice. Now he's managed to burn through millions of ven cap $$$ for no reason. Congrats.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Still a shock
twrock @ 7/30/2005 9:04:51 PM # Q
FWIW, three reasons I didn't buy a Zod the last time I went shopping for a PDA:
1) The joystick. It looked like a toy, and it made the unit too big. Had Tapwave had a unit with the same specs as either Zod sans the joystick (and the size it added), they would have made a sale to me.
2) I had just broken my HandEra. I didn't want to have another PDA with significant "non-standard" features that the developers weren't supporting.
3) I could already see the similarities between Tapwave and HandEra, and I was pretty sure they wouldn't be around long. And I'm no guru, so I don't understand why this came as a shock to people.

So I might have been wrong in those three perceptions, but perception sells (or doesn't, as the case may be).

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Still a shock
fierywater @ 7/31/2005 11:49:31 AM # Q
They could've just made a portrait model with a gamepad/button configuration akin to the old Casio E-series pocket PCs. That design would've given them a good setup for gaming, along with the possibility of looking business-like.

RE: Still a shock
ackmondual @ 8/1/2005 4:20:38 AM # Q
The fact the the zods looked like a GBA shouldn't be big factor. Many ppl, white collar office ppl and the like are buying the PSPs for its other features as well.

****fierywater @ 7/31/2005 11:49:31 AM
They could've just made a portrait model with a gamepad/button configuration akin to the old Casio E-series pocket PCs. That design would've given them a good setup for gaming, along with the possibility of looking business-like.

Good for business-like look, yes... but good for gaming, NO. The joystick and widscreen are some common features that users like in today's handheld and console games. In fact one of the big selling points of the GBA was the widescreen from the square screen, the DS's dual wide screens, and the PSP's even bigger, 32bit millions of colors, AND 16:9 aspect ratio widescreen. The PSP's analog stick and the DS' lack of it was a sore subject brought up over and over agian in the gaming community and still is.

[signature0]
the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse
[/signature0]

[signature1]
My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71 --> Tungsten T3 (with 5 of 6 screws still remaining) --> zodiac 2?
[/signature1]

RE: Still a shock
Scott R @ 8/1/2005 10:51:57 AM # Q
I guess my IBM Thinkpad is a toy as well since it's got a bright red analog controller in the middle of the keyboard.

Again VOR, you're simply wrong. You may work in a place where you have to worry about what your boss thinks about the device you're using, but for many Zodiac users who have used ours in big corporations, it's been a non-issue.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Still a shock
twrock @ 8/1/2005 11:40:32 AM # Q
I guess my IBM Thinkpad is a toy as well since it's got a bright red analog controller in the middle of the keyboard.

Ok, you've got a point there. I do see that differently, but, yes, it is an "analog controller."

Incidentally, I really do think I am going to buy an IBM keyboard with the Trackpoint so that my desktop machine will work like my Thinkpad. Once you get used to using it, you really don't want to work without it. Does anyone else make a "Trackpoint" keyboard?

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

Zodiacs's form factor was a fatal mistake.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/1/2005 8:41:03 PM # Q
RE: Still a shock
ackmondual @ 8/1/2005 4:20:38 AM #

The fact the the zods looked like a GBA shouldn't be big factor. Many ppl, white collar office ppl and the like are buying the PSPs for its other features as well.

Ummm... so are your legions of "white collar workers" whipping out their PSPs during meetings with clients? Didn't think so.


RE: Still a shock
Scott R @ 8/1/2005 10:51:57 AM #

I guess my IBM Thinkpad is a toy as well since it's got a bright red analog controller in the middle of the keyboard.

Again VOR, you're simply wrong. You may work in a place where you have to worry about what your boss thinks about the device you're using, but for many Zodiac users who have used ours in big corporations, it's been a non-issue.

No, Scott R, YOU'RE wrong. I'm looking at a jewel-like IBM X40 sitting on my desk right now and the Trackpoint is elegantly integrated into the keyboard. Not quite the same as the Zodiac's big honking joystick jutting out of its case like a hideous wart.

While it may be OK for you to use your Zodiac at work, I'll bet you also wear a nametag and a uniform with a hat at work. Not that there's anything wrong with that... Others need a more professional-looking device.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Still a shock
ackmondual @ 8/2/2005 4:25:09 AM # Q
TVoR
Ummm... so are your legions of "white collar workers" whipping out their PSPs during meetings with clients? Didn't think so.

Or... they wait until the meeting is over to whip out their PSPs to enjoy music, movies, pics, games, and internet

RE: Still a shock
Scott R @ 8/2/2005 12:59:08 PM # Q
While it may be OK for you to use your Zodiac at work, I'll bet you also wear a nametag and a uniform with a hat at work. Not that there's anything wrong with that... Others need a more professional-looking device.

Would you like to place money on that bet?

It sounds like you have to worry too much about what your boss thinks about the PDA you use. One day if you work hard enough, you may move up to a position where you don't need to concern yourself about such things.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

I'll take that bet.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/2/2005 4:06:16 PM # Q
Would you like to place money on that bet?

I'll place that bet when I see you when you take my order at the drive-through. And no, I don't want fries with that.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Reply to this comment

Is there any clearance sale for Zodiac optimized games?

asiayeah @ 7/28/2005 10:10:27 AM # Q
Will there be any clearance sale for Zodiac optimized games?


--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

RE: Is there any clearance sale for Zodiac optimized games?
ackmondual @ 8/1/2005 4:18:01 AM # Q
there already is. Long before of this news..... as far as i remember, at least 2 to 3 months ago. Try www.Ebuyer.com for one site. Many others that did sell Zod games for cheap don't carry zods and its accessories anymore

If you're referring to Just electronic versions of the game, not likely, as Tapwave was the only one that could sign games, with the exception of one or 2 small devs for their own games.

[signature0]
the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse
[/signature0]

[signature1]
My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71 --> Tungsten T3 (with 5 of 6 screws still remaining) --> zodiac 2?
[/signature1]

RE: Is there any clearance sale for Zodiac optimized games?
joad @ 8/1/2005 8:51:50 PM # Q
quote="The belief that the Zodiac was "too big" was a widely propogated one and this is where their lack of a brick and mortar presence hurt them. I can't count the number of times I've heard new Zodiac owners say, "Wow, it's not nearly as big as I thought it would be.""

I don't think there were people running around "propogating" the myth the Zodiac was "too big." I own a couple of them, and my remarks were from the point of view of the "average" user that seems to be the target market of PDA/Smartphone makers at this time. Treo 650 is a case in point- barely any RAM because apparently Palm's intelligence tells them that only the rare "power users" load anything on to them except the basic applications (and thus they can skimp on RAM).

Zodiac has a radical design - extremely effective from a "gaming" viewpoint, but from the perspective of the "average" PDA user it's larger and "too different" from other PDAs - kind of a 'nerd' appeal, not a 'bling' appeal. In a market where people choose the tinyest cell phone they can find, regardless of the actual technology within the phone, Zodiac's 'larger than average' size was destined to relegate it to a very niche market.



RE: Is there any clearance sale for Zodiac optimized games?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/2/2005 4:16:42 AM # Q
The Zodiacs remind me a lot of the TRGpro + Handera 330. Both HandEra and Tapwave employed some of the most talented engineers in the business. Both companies also pushed the envelope in terms of the hardware available to PalmOS users. Both companies also were clueless about marketing and were apparently under the delusion that having a good product is all it takes to succeed in the PDA market.
Both companies came tantalizingly close to designing a perfect PDA. Both were underappreciated by the masses, but will be missed by those who appreciate quality. If you don't mind the size, the Zodiac 2 is easily the best PalmOS PDA still being sold. Stock up while they're still available. These just might be the final reliable, well built PalmOS PDAs ever sold...


Posted from a UX50 in the middle of nowhere. Say hello to my little friend!


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Is there any clearance sale for Zodiac optimized games?
Frenchie @ 8/3/2005 8:28:37 PM # Q
Amen

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p
Reply to this comment

Rather low demand

vesther @ 7/28/2005 10:42:10 AM # Q
I was suspecting that there's been low demand on enthusiast-level handhelds like this. There was probably higher demand for "productivity" handhelds that often lack the high-end features required to classify the handheld as a high-end handheld.

Maybe someone might be able to buy the rights of this handheld, but in the future, someone's got to make the best handheld through research and listening.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

Reply to this comment

I guess I won't be buying a Z2 now

otseng @ 7/28/2005 3:05:35 PM # Q
I was just about to buy a Zodiac 2 from ebay. Then I just discovered the Tapwave news. :(

I will say that Tapwave's marketing budget must have been like zero. I had never even heard of the Zodiac prior to walking into CompUSA last week and seeing the unit. I was in the market for a PDA and when I saw it, I knew I had to have it. And just when I was going to buy it, it's discontinued. Interesting timing...

Fossil: next to go?
hkklife @ 7/28/2005 3:18:48 PM # Q
Amazon has marked down the Fossil wrist PDA by $90! It's now $80 instead of the $170 it had been. Free shipping too. Might be a good time now to snag one if you have any interest whatsoever. I actually only saw one of these units out "in the wild" since they launched last year. Four or five years ago it'd have been met with a smidgen more marketplace acceptance, I bet. I still love how its CPU is faster than ANY OS4 model Palm Inc. ever produced and on paper the Fossil beats the venerable Zire classic (faster CPU, backlight, more hard buttons)!



RE: I guess I won't be buying a Z2 now
fierywater @ 7/31/2005 11:50:56 AM # Q
somehow, i doubt the death of Fossil will come because of one niche watch.

Reply to this comment

OT I dont care.

Konstantin @ 7/28/2005 6:04:16 PM # Q
I am waiting for the Nokia770 launch.
Unless Zod2 will be under $150

RE: OT I dont care.
ackmondual @ 8/1/2005 4:26:52 AM # Q
On the contrary, it's still on topic.

If you're picking one up casually, that's fine, but if you're serious, I'd doubt the zod2 will dip below $150. If the T|T3, z71, and variety of kickass Clie's are of any indication, the price many months/years later will will only be $50 to $100 cheaper than the current price point. The clie's are special b/c some models are actually selling for $50 to $150 over its MSRP

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For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...

Rome @ 7/28/2005 7:59:17 PM # Q
Is this "news" a blow to palmsource? Of course it is. Is it a death blow? Far from it.

Losing Zodiac as a licensee is probably like Microsoft losing Sierra Wireless as a customer. It hurts but certainly not the end of the world. Remember those Vog phones???

The future is in the smartphone and feature phone market. Trading Tapwave for LG is a deal I will make any day.

I am not denying that Palmsource is not going through a tough period, but which company hasn't. It wasn't that long ago that people were declaring the end of Palm (formerly known as Palmone).

And for those proclaiming the imminent release of Windows Mobile-based Treos, didn't this rumor start almost a year ago and where are those windows mobile treos now? In fact, the latest credible rumor concerning the next Treo has it using the new Palm Cobalt OS. Furthermore, didn't Palm just extend its contract with Palmsource by another 3 years to 2009.

Oh, and how about those new features in the Windows Mobile 5.0? Here are two:

- Persistent Memory
- One-handed operation.

They are new all right, for Windows Mobile users only. I have both on my Treo 650 since November 2004.


RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 7/28/2005 8:39:15 PM # Q
Not an MVP of course, but Rome, I wonder if you will still be loyal to Palm if they shipped a WM device. I bet you would. Palm as it is now is not exactly an embodiment of their initial ideas. Lets make a list

1) Long battery life - went out with color screens.
2) Cheap devices - probably still true, but you don't get much for your money. Also I heard Zires may be discontinued.
3) Simplicity - if you hear of the shenanigans the LD owners have to go through to make sure they do not kill their devices (e.g. backing up their saved prefs due to random deletion, installing software very carefully etc) thats clearly gone too.
4) Reliability - Again see the T5 and LD.
5) Speed - Again, look at the LD.
6) Large software library - which will crash your device due to not being NVFS compatible. There is now a growing movement to run your devices as "stock" with as little third party software as possible, due to the fragility and instability of the system.

As I see it the Palm you fell in love with is long gone, and you are only defending a memory. What you have at the moment is just a poor WM competitor.

BTW, WM for smartphones has had one-handed navigation and persistent storage for 3 years now. Isn't smartphones where the treo's at?

Surur

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
Timothy Rapson @ 7/28/2005 10:08:30 PM # Q
"As I see it the Palm you fell in love with is long gone, and you are only defending a memory. What you have at the moment is just a poor WM competitor."

My Zire 72 is just barely an OS5 model, but it is subject to all you describe. The Palm OS I fell in love with when I went from a mono Ipaq 3100, to a very zippy 66 MZ Motorola 6800 processor with 16 MB running OS 4 is gone.

As far as I can now tell, nearly any WM 2003 or newer device is as stable as my first Zire 71 was, maybe moreso.

Plus the PPCs have real files, real multi-tasking, and real fonts that I want. When persistent memory comes this Fall I will just be waiting for my Zire 72 to develop some hardware problem or be hopelessly unable to run some new program I need because it is too outdated.

I'm no MS MVP either. I am a long-time POS user and vocal supporter. Palm has lost it all by itself when it missed it's kill with Cobalt.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/29/2005 12:27:38 AM # Q
> Lets make a list

Ok, let's make a WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever list too:

1. Not just an organiser - then why do your customers use it as such? And why is the leading after-market software a PIM? Because the poor guys purchased a poor-excuse-for-an-organiser, that's why.

2. I can do more - system maintanence, dealing with crashes, staring at hour-glass symbols, etc.

3. Have a PC interface - great, how innovative, and so elegant on a 2.4 inch screen (not).

4. The device has a faster chip / more memory - each of which is needed merely to eke out reasonable performance from that bloated kludge of an OS. What does this do to battery life, I wonder?

5. Multitasking - why is it that so many users pay good money to purchase software which switches it off? Because it degrades performance and contributes to crashes, that's why.

6. It synchronises with Outlook - doesn't every handheld computer?

7. I can work with Word and XL files - yes, and loose your formatting. How convenient.

And the predictably lame response from Pool_F@rter and Vat of Refuse is ...

PalmSource dropping like a rock... or a turd in your eye
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/29/2005 2:10:37 AM # Q
PalmOS and Windows Mobile now compete for the SAME customers, so if Palm hopes to maintain marketshare it needs to offer the SAME features and value that companies selling Windows Mobile devices offer. Period. It appears that the "Zen of Palm" B.S. has recently been resurrected [zombie-style] but it simply won't cut it any more, despite what the Palm Apologists will soon start trying to say.


People prefer value and features for their money and Palm's crappy hardware and reliance on Primitive PalmOS cripples Palm's ability to compete with Windows Mobile. It seems obvious that even more users will migrate from PalmOS if this situation stays the same. If Palm wants to survive, they must become OS agnostic + offer products running Windows Mobile that will give customers access to advanced functionality. (Imagine a Treo 700 or [FIXED] LifeDrive running some of these apps: Opera or NetFront, Pocket Informant, Wisbar, TextMaker, The Core Pocket Media Player, ListPro, Pocket Artist, Skype, CalliGrapher or PenReader, CoPilot Live, Pocket Quicken, RepliGo, Resco Explorer 2003, Nyditot Virtual Display, etc.) With native multitasking and finally some apps worth using, Windows Mobile becomes a platform that even Palm Fanboys will take a serious look at. There now don't appear to be any major app categories that don't have excellent programs available for them under Windows Mobile. And for any older or niche apps that might be PalmOS-only, there's StyleTap. Ouch!

The release of a Palm Treo would effectively tell the world that PalmOS is dead as a platform. Expect the announcement in a couple of months.

Even lunatic fringe members like Kirvin, svrontis, etc can no longer deny the end game has now begun:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PSRC&t=1y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
scstraus2 @ 7/29/2005 6:12:03 AM # Q
The_Voice_of_Troll is exactly wrong, and this is why windows mobile will never really take all the business from the palm side. Just like in the windows/mac battles, the microsoft side always thinks it's features that sell all products. They tend to be geeks or trolls :).

The fact is, the people who buy things like macs and iPod and palms are more concerned with the cleanliness and practicality of the user interface and whether it does the job quickly and easily.

The majority of people DO want an organizer, and use their PDA that way. The fact is, not having to deal with multitasking and a cartload of button presses to get things done is the reason these people buy palm.

But windows fanboys will never understand this and demand features like multitasking that I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've wanted it (and what I do want it for, palm does reasonably well).

I do agree palm is doing alot wrong, but until microsoft can release a usable OS, we'll probably more likely to switch to symbian or linux than your crappy OS :).

But at this point, first real PDA with 40gb or bigger hard drive gets my vote, even if its microsoft.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
AdamaDBrown @ 7/29/2005 12:43:05 PM # Q
You go on that tirade against features selling PDAs, then you say that you'll buy the first device with a 40 GB hard drive no matter who makes it? Any irony there?

Anyway, VoR is correct. The same argument, that people want PIM rather than anything else, was used to justify why Windows would never make it out of the single digits of marketshare, why expansion slots weren't needed, and why nobody could use more than 8 MB of RAM. If all someone needs is basic PIM, there's no need to ever make more than a Zire, or a cheap cell phone. The "PIM only" argument was defunct when color screens became an industry standard, because you don't need color for PIM. As for the majority buying an organizer, the majority currently buys Windows, by an almost two to one margin. Palm needs to compete on features, period.

By the way, svrontis:

The average PocketPC has a 3.5 inch screen, not 2.4 (which is more like a square Palm screen), and the Windows Mobile interface is not the same as a desktop.

If you want to know battery life, just look it up. I suspect that you actually don't want to know, since it would show that even with fast processors most PocketPCs are still quite long lived, with the good ones running 8 hours with Bluetooth on and a moderate brightness.

Nobody switches off multitasking. I don't know where you got this idea, but it's incorrect. Perhaps you're thinking of task switchers, which allow people to easily sort and control what programs they have open.

The Word formatting issue is finally supposed to be fixed in WM5.

It's great to love Palm, but it doesn't make it okay to create your own personal version of the facts.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
whydidnt @ 7/29/2005 1:22:48 PM # Q
I've lurked here long enough, and can't take some of these comments anymore.

svrontis, your comments and the seemingly blind sheep approach that many Palm users have taken with Palm for the last five years are precisely why PalmSource has fallen on hard times.
1. Let me ask you, have you heard of Agendus or DateBook5? Aren't they two of the most popular Palm software titles? To use your logic, I guess Palm doesn't provide a very good PIM.
2. Apparently you haven't tried Palm's latest and greatest, the T5 or the LifeDrive, because you just described their end user experience. BTW, I have a LifeDrive for sale, cheap!
3. This is a matter of personal choice, however, I'm not aware of any PPC with a screen as small as you indicate.
4. The same thing it does to battery life on every recent Palm release - seeing as they both use the same Intel processors these days.
5. Some of use would prefer to be able to cut information from our web browser, paste it into an email or word document, and return to the same spot in our browser. This is just a small sample of what multi-taksing provides. Much like you close programs on your desktop when you no longer need them, third party progroms in WM give you the same choice.
6. Yes, what's your point?
7. Just like the Palm OS requires a third party product to "maintain formatting", the PPC requires the same thing. If it is an issue to the user, it can be resolved via third party software.

The problem is for too long apologists such as yourself have been too busy pointing out WindowsMobile flaws while accepting the BS Palm gives you as Gospel. If you had taken Palm to task 3 years ago on these issues, we may now have a stable solid alternative to WindowsMobile, which I think everyone in here thinks would be a very good thing. Nothing is worse than the complacency being an uncontested market leader brings. Look at what happened to Palm or Internet Explorer for an example of this.

As far as Tapwave is concerned, I think they had a very good idea, but picked the wrong platform and time to bring this market. Because of Palm's previous OS decisions, there weren't a lot of ready made games that need the horsepower and ease of use that the Zodiac brought to market. I still thing it was a very good idea, and would have fit a very much needed niche in the WindowsMobile market. Certainly it would never have competed with Nintendo or Sony for the biggest slice of the portable gaming market, but there are more WM titles that could have taken advantage of the hardware than PalmOS at this point in time.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
whydidnt @ 7/29/2005 1:42:03 PM # Q
scstrau2 says:
"The majority of people DO want an organizer, and use their PDA that way. The fact is, not having to deal with multitasking and a cartload of button presses to get things done is the reason these people buy palm."

If this is the only market Palm can compete in than I have to tell you Palm no longer has a substainable business model. It's tough to make a lot of profit selling $89 PIM organizers, when nearly every mobile phone today provides the same basic functionality. Those who want corporate email with their PIM without other features go with a Blackberry, and according to you Palm has no reason to try to compete on features. What are they going to do to make money long term? They have to compete on features because the PDA as simply a PIM market doesn't exist anymore. Palm obviously recognizes this with the LifeDrive - unfortunately, that device is currently crippled by a patched, and repatched again OS.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
Foo Fighter @ 7/29/2005 1:59:01 PM # Q
>> "I do agree palm is doing alot wrong, but until microsoft can release a usable OS, we'll probably more likely to switch to symbian or linux than your crappy OS :)."

LOL! Linux eh? I do hope you enjoy TrollTech's sucktacular QT interface. It is by far the worst user interface I have EVER seen on a mobile device. Repeating all of the same mistakes of Microsoft's early Palm-Size PC GUI; a shrunken desktop UI on a tiny screen. You think Windows Mobile is bad? Pulllleeeeeeze! It is a paradise compared to QT Linux. If you don't believe me just try out a Zaurus. Very poor quality software that looks like it was designed by amateurs.

The best solution for mobile Linux, as on the desktop, is to have proprietary software (including a well designed GUI) layered on top of it. PalmSource made the right decision; they just did it too late. If the Nagel and his merry minstrels of mismanagement hadn't wasted the last few years on a stillborn platform, and moved PalmOS onto Linux from the start, the Palm platform would be set for life...with a bright future ahead. Instead, Cobalt (the OS that never was) sucked up most of the company's development resources, and wasted PalmOS's most vital resource; time.

Because of this we are now stuck with an OS that was originally slated for decommissioning, for the next 2 years.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 7/29/2005 2:31:28 PM # Q
Actually Tapwave turned to Linux in its dying days, just like Novell and a few other dying companies. Its a way to ride the Linux bandwagon and raise venture capital. If PalmSource goes under in a few months there will be no Palmnix. (remembers wordperfect for Java?)

Surur

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
Foo Fighter @ 7/29/2005 2:45:44 PM # Q
Right now I suspect PalmSource is attempting (note the emphasis on that word) to prime itself for acquisition. Dumping the previous executive team and replacing them with seat warmers, trimming 16% of its workforce (if you can call it a workforce), moving to Linux, trying use the recent LG partnership as proof they aren't dying, etc.

The problem is any company that acquires PalmSource instantly inherits its failures and financial problems. At this point Palm Inc. is doing well financially. If they buy PalmSource that changes in the blink of an eye, and they transition from a stable profitable company to a cash burning machine.

-------------------------------
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Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
Rome @ 7/29/2005 2:49:13 PM # Q
Surur,

Comments inline below:

"Not an MVP of course, but Rome, I wonder if you will still be loyal to Palm if they shipped a WM device. I bet you would. Palm as it is now is not exactly an embodiment of their initial ideas. Lets make a list"

I will decide when/if Palm does ship a WM device. Until then, it is just vaporware, like the much-hyped Motorola MPX. Right now, there is not a single smartphone out there, regardless of the OS, that is more compelling to me than the Treo 650.

"1) Long battery life - went out with color screens."

Ok. Then do WM devices have longer battery life than Palm OS devices? Try reading a couple reviews on Samsung i730 and you will get the answer.

"2) Cheap devices - probably still true, but you don't get much for your money. Also I heard Zires may be discontinued."

When you can get Tungsten E2 for $175 after rebate on the internet, that's value. Please don't confuse value with cheap, and vice versa. What are your choices for WM devices under $200?

"3) Simplicity - if you hear of the shenanigans the LD owners have to go through to make sure they do not kill their devices (e.g. backing up their saved prefs due to random deletion, installing software very carefully etc) thats clearly gone too."

Do not own a LD, so I can't comment on its performance. I am a Treo 650 user, as mentioned in my original post above, and I am very happy with my Treo. Do you even own a Palm device? Are your opinions on palm alwlays based on other people's experiences? Do you write reviews based on other people's review?


"4) Reliability - Again see the T5 and LD."

Didn't I mention that smartphone is the future? I, for one, am very happy with my Treo. Again do/have you own the T5 or LD?

5) Speed - Again, look at the LD.

Again, have you owned a LD personally and is LD the only device that Palm offers? My treo 650 is plenty fast for me.

"6) Large software library - which will crash your device due to not being NVFS compatible. There is now a growing movement to run your devices as "stock" with as little third party software as possible, due to the fragility and instability of the system."

A growing movement? Says who? If software stability was so critical, Microsoft would have gone out of business back in the 1980s...

"As I see it the Palm you fell in love with is long gone, and you are only defending a memory. What you have at the moment is just a poor WM competitor."

Funny, you can tell me what I love more than I do. Are you like a mind reader or something? As of today, my wife and I still love our Treos. Maybe you will soon tell me why I don't love my wife anymore and I should therefore leave her...

"BTW, WM for smartphones has had one-handed navigation and persistent storage for 3 years now. Isn't smartphones where the treo's at?"

Really, then why was Mr. Softie touting these features in its WM 5 press release? Are you telling me that there are really nothing new in WM 5? What a scam!!!

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 7/29/2005 3:27:05 PM # Q
I have not tried a Treo, but have heard a lot of good things about it (specifically the keyboard and the integration of the OS with the keyboard). I have also heard bad things about it, such as limited memory (I know a fix helped a bit), instability and poor build quality. And of course it still runs POS, which means a number of limitations, such as not being able to multi-task properly, no proper PDF reader (which is rather ironic for a device that often connects to the Internet), poor browser (vs multi-tabbed netfront), and of course limited use of the old software library due to NVFS problems.

Now I agree that a WM device still has to come out addressing the advantages of the Treo (good keyboard and one-handed navigation) but there is a lot of competition out already. WM phone devices already outsell the Treo, and with a raft of very attractive devices coming out addressing those specific areas (keyboard and one-handed navigation) I expect the Treo (and POS) wont be sitting so pretty in a year's time.

Surur

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
twrock @ 7/29/2005 8:43:41 PM # Q
The Word formatting issue is finally supposed to be fixed in WM5.

I find statements like this to be very ironic. In WM5 they are going to get it right. Funny.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
ackmondual @ 7/30/2005 5:45:04 AM # Q
AFAIK, Calendar and Datebook are still in good use

As for Pocket Word and Excel vs DTG, they're about similar issues

The PalmOS advantage here is that many pOS handhelds are bundled with DTG, a decent office program that retains formatting. If you can't wait for the WM5 update of Pocke Word and Excel, due to wishful thinking that the update will still suck anways, just buy the 3rd party alternative for $30 to $50. WIth PPC, u spend extra $$ is all

[signature0]
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[/signature0]

[signature1]
My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71 --> Tungsten T3 (with 5 of 6 screws still remaining) --> zodiac 2?
[/signature1]

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
scstraus2 @ 7/30/2005 8:44:55 AM # Q
Just to clarify, I was talking about more or less useless and fatty features in the OS like having to do manual task switching, etc. that add to the complexity of the user experience. I think palm just thinks a lot more about how a feature is going to be used (and if it will) than microsoft does. Which is why microsoft product, bloated with features, rarely if ever produce an enjoyable user experience.

Obviously hardware features are something that everyone can enjoy without cluttering the experience- and palm is ahead in hardware features in a lot of ways like imbedded hard drives and practical phone integration, so I don't see that being their downfall.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 7/30/2005 9:25:37 AM # Q

You are right that I have not noticed a profusion of "nice touches" in MS software, but I take issue with saying Palm integrates hardware better. The way they use the HDD is pure madness. I have yet to see anyone defending their implementation accept on the grounds that its cheaper. Regarding phone integration, I understand you can not dial a phone number from a field in contacts easily? In MS smartphones phone numbers are automatically hyperlinked so you can dial them. MS has actually made a real smartphone (normal candybar phone with a number keyboard) Palm has just added a phone module to their PDA (like pocketpcphones)

Surur

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
ReneeRoberts @ 7/30/2005 12:24:13 PM # Q
Ironically, I happen to use my Treo 650 as a phone, not so much as a PDA. I use my LD for everything PalmOS. I happen to like the Treo 650 interface for phone, including the ability to view all text messages from a particular person (I would love to have it similar to AIM, but this is much better than just looking up each SMS individually). Now, that isn't saying that I don't have PalmOS apps loaded on my Treo, but it really isn't my Primary PalmOS device.

There are a large number of folk who really don't even know the power their Treo 650's have. I see people everyday that see mine and go, "Wow... you can do that???" That is one of the nice aspects of running a PUG. I can show people what they can do with their devices.

The whole WM vs POS battle argument here on PIC is actually quite humorous to read. Competition breeds innovation. If one platform won over the other, we wouldn't have the innovation that we do have now (although I would like to see things happen faster!). Look at the Windows (desktop/laptop) platform. Microsoft has a virtual monopoly, seen any major innovation? I see bug fixes and cosmetic changes. I would love to see Windows evolve further, but it is stagnating.

Now, with Tapwave, I do hope that they manage to at least survive to provide OEM services (They have great ideas!), but I am not holding my breath at this point. It does look like they are going away. I have had a Zod for a while, and made the decision to put it up for sale (with lots of goodies) the other day. I did know back in May that they were discontinuing the Zodiac line, and I did buy a few units for my teens (They had been salivating over mine since I bought it). They knew it was being D/C'd also. I do wish that Tapwave had been able to continue warranty support, but that was a chance I took when I bought the units. I haven't been using it much since I got my LD, and the timing for Tapwave's announcement did influence my decision to sell.

Anti-Microsoft arguments self-destruct again. How pathetic.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/30/2005 5:05:17 PM # Q
The_Voice_of_Troll is exactly wrong, and this is why windows mobile will never really take all the business from the palm side. Just like in the windows/mac battles, the microsoft side always thinks it's features that sell all products. They tend to be geeks or trolls :).

The fact is, the people who buy things like macs and iPod and palms are more concerned with the cleanliness and practicality of the user interface and whether it does the job quickly and easily.

The majority of people DO want an organizer, and use their PDA that way. The fact is, not having to deal with multitasking and a cartload of button presses to get things done is the reason these people buy palm.

But windows fanboys will never understand this and demand features like multitasking that I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've wanted it (and what I do want it for, palm does reasonably well).

I do agree palm is doing alot wrong, but until microsoft can release a usable OS, we'll probably more likely to switch to symbian or linux than your crappy OS :).

But at this point, first real PDA with 40gb or bigger hard drive gets my vote, even if its microsoft.

Voice_of_Troll? Wow, that really hurt me. Anyway, to dismantle your exceptionally weak arguments:

Initially people were saying PPC would never get more than 10% of the market. Then 50%. Now you say "windows mobile will never really take all the business from the palm side". That doesn't sound like you have a lot of confidence in PalmOS. If Palm sells only 100,000 PDAs per year or plummets to a 1% market share, will you still consider them successful?

Despite what you say, people prefer getting more for their money - features sell. Macs still sell (though in relatively miniscule numbers compared to Windows) because some people like the idea of using a non-Windows environment; because of the zombie-like obedience of Mac Cultists; because Microsoft needs Mac to stay around so Windows isn't considered a monopoly; and perhaps least important of all, because in some ways it is actually a good OS.

iPods, on the other hand are a FAD. Apple was the first company to get the right integration of hardware, software, music sales and industrial design in a portable digital music player. Marketing then took it to the next level. The fact that people will buy an iPod shuffle instead of a better quality/better featured/less expensive competitor underscores how good Apple is about marketing + brainwashing its customers.

People use PDAs as an organizer, but if that was all they did there would be no need to sell anything other than a few cheap Zires. Unfortunately for Palm, traditional PIM functions can easily be taken over by modern cell phones. CONNECTED PDAs are the future. And to be useful as a connected PDA, multitasking is a must. The fact that you don't see multitasking as being important suggests to me that you've never used your PDA to connect to the Internet. Once you start using a PDA as a mobile browser, you'll quickly get frustrated that you have to close out your browsing session EVERY TIME you need to do something else in another app. If Palm could come up with a simple way to allow the browser and two or three other apps to remain open at the same time (and support multiple browser windows) I think most users would be satisfied. As with desktops, usually only a few apps ever need to be open at the same time. I agree that PPC/Windows Mobile has a suboptimal User Interface, with too many taps being needed to do things. Also, switching apps + closing programs should be handled better. Unfortunately for Palm, these UI problems can easily be overcome with the addition of third party programs (many are freeware!), while NO third party program can overcome the limitations of the PalmOS architecture. Also - especially if you're not familiar with the advantages of the PalmOS UI - people that use Windows Mobile can quickly adapt to the UI anyway.

It's funny you mention Linux, since Tapwave (who had a number of talented programmers and had done some impressive hacking of PalmOS to create a stable platform for the Zodiacs) were experimenting with Linux this year as they struggled to stay alive. Furthermore, PalmSource also finally woke up and are now praying that PalmLinux will save the platform's sorry a$$. Only problem in that hammering Linux into a suitable PDA OS takes a lot of time, effort and skill. Palm seems to be lacking in those three qualities these days and Windows Mobile has a several year head start on Palm in fielding a multitasking OS.

I find it ironic that you completely undermined your argument that OS matters when you concluded that "But at this point, first real PDA with 40gb or bigger hard drive gets my vote, even if its microsoft." I guess you've now proven to us all that FEATURES (like a 40 GB HD) actually do matter to some people (like YOU)!

TVoR, Esq.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
Foo Fighter @ 7/30/2005 6:43:33 PM # Q
>> "Now, with Tapwave, I do hope that they manage to at least survive to provide OEM services (They have great ideas!), but I am not holding my breath at this point. It does look like they are going away."

Tapwave is being liquidated, they no longer exist. There isn't going to be an OEM service, or any other for that matter. I don't understand why some of people still haven't fully grasped this yet.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/30/2005 10:40:27 PM # Q
> The average PocketPC has a 3.5 inch screen, not 2.4 (which is more like a square Palm screen), and the Windows Mobile interface is not the same as a desktop.

Fine, 3.5 inches - let's say 4 inches to be on the safe side. Whether it's 2.4, 3.5 or 4 inches, that familiar Windows interface is neither an innovative nor elegant way to run a handheld computer.

> If you want to know battery life, just look it up. I suspect that you actually don't want to know, since it would show that even with fast processors most PocketPCs are still quite long lived, with the good ones running 8 hours with Bluetooth on and a moderate brightness.

Shall we do a challenge? Name me a typical WinMob unit, we'll look up the reviews and compare battery life with a roughly equivalent Palm unit. I vote that we select the x50v. Let me know which unit you want to choose. (The comparison must be done on the basis of the stock-standard unit - I don't want any tiresome arguments about replacement batteries. OK?)

> Nobody switches off multitasking. I don't know where you got this idea, but it's incorrect. Perhaps you're thinking of task switchers, which allow people to easily sort and control what programs they have open.

I was refering to Wisbar. Users instal it so that when they 'close' an application it is actually closed, rather than running in the background. It prevents the 'closed' programs contuining to run in the multitasking environment. This means that users instal this program to prevent multitasking the 'closed' program. Why do they do this? Because, if the 'closed' program continues to run, it needlessly ties up system resources, and retards performance.

> The Word formatting issue is finally supposed to be fixed in WM5.

That doesn't exactly help the poor guy who will buy a WinMob 2003 SE unit today, thinking that he can work with his documents on it. Does it? This is so typical of some of the Whiners here at PIC - they critize Palm rabidly - but when you refer them to a WinMob issue, they tell us it will be fixed 'soon'. For goodness sake, people have been complaining about missed alarms and ActiveSync problems for 5 or 6 years now and these issues have STILL not been rectified.

I'll try to respond to some of the other posts addressed to me another time. (I have some work to do.)

By the way, I'd like to offer an unreserved apology to Foo Fighter and The Voice of Reason for my name calling. This was entirely uncalled for.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/30/2005 11:25:27 PM # Q
> Do not own a LD, so I can't comment on its performance. I am a Treo 650 user, as mentioned in my original post above, and I am very happy with my Treo. Do you even own a Palm device? Are your opinions on palm alwlays based on other people's experiences? Do you write reviews based on other people's review?

No, Surur's opinions are based on what Ed over at pocketpcthoughts.com has to say - hardly an 'unbiased' commentator if you ask me.

I REALLY have to go and do some work now.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/30/2005 11:34:45 PM # Q
M$ recent stock price history

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=1y&l=on&z=m&q=l&p=&a=&c=&s=msft

They are heading south too.

I REALLY REALLY need to do some work now.

Debunking the FUD:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/31/2005 2:29:12 AM # Q
Microsoft is fine. Their stock fluctuates just like everyone else:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=


And how many BILLION $ do they have in the bank?

To simplify things for you, here's a graph that might eduMacate you and finally silence the FUD you continually spread:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=2y&s=MSFT&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=psrc

Don't you just hate when your FUD turns around and bites you in the a$$?


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/31/2005 2:55:05 AM # Q
Coming from the purveyor of some of the most obnoxous nonsense I have ever had the misfortune to read, your accusations are amusing.

He's a comparison between your employer's stock performance and Apple.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=2y&s=MSFT&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=aapl

That ain't a stellar performance, is it?



RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/31/2005 3:00:34 AM # Q
> People use PDAs as an organizer.

Hey, Voice, your employers will be very disappointed in you. You see, you have now admitted what they have tried to deny for years. Their whole 'you can do more' marketing campaign was based on the knowledge that the poor-excuse-for-an-organiser PIM component of WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever could never compete with what even a low end Palm can do in terms of time/contact management. It's a classic marketing tactic - if you can't compete, disparage the rival. We still see a lot of that here on PIC even today.



Microsoft RULES! Palm DROOLS!__________;-O
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/31/2005 3:38:12 AM # Q
Coming from the purveyor of some of the most obnoxous nonsense I have ever had the misfortune to read, your accusations are amusing.

He's a comparison between your employer's stock performance and Apple.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=2y&s=MSFT&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=aapl

That ain't a stellar performance, is it?

As usual, you show your ignorance, Bubba. Let's just go a little further back in history (pre-iPod) and see how your precious CrApple was doing:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=aapl

Face it - if it wasn't in Microsoft's best interests that Apple be kept on life support, they would have gone bankrupt in the 1990s. And right now Apple's living mainly off its iPod FAD. What happens when the fad is over and they have to go back to being a computer manufacturer (or more accurately, a computer MARKETER)? Simple: the RED INK returns.

I think most people now see through Steve "Svengali" Jobs' smoke and mirrors nonsense (gotta love how they finally now admit the Power PC performance numbers were a crock of sh*t...) so I expect their future as a desktop OS will be pretty bleak.

Bill Gates



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/31/2005 3:43:45 AM # Q
> The problem is for too long apologists such as yourself have been too busy pointing out WindowsMobile flaws while accepting the BS Palm gives you as Gospel. If you had taken Palm to task 3 years ago on these issues, we may now have a stable solid alternative to WindowsMobile, which I think everyone in here thinks would be a very good thing. Nothing is worse than the complacency being an uncontested market leader brings. Look at what happened to Palm or Internet Explorer for an example of this.

That's not the problem at all. I'll tell you what the problem is.

I have been using palmpilots since I can't remember when. I have purchased (with my own hard earned money) a Vx, m500, T2, TE (2 of them) and I finally caved in got a Treo 650 recently. The only hardware problems I ever had were (a) I wore out the To Do List button on my Vx; and (b) the screen on my first TE gave up the ghost after only 15 months of use. The only major software problem I have ever had was when updating the Palm desktop a couple of years back. (I won't go into problems caused when I have tried defective software - the developer soon after issued a bug fix or I deleted it.)

I have relied on these devices as part of my busy practice and they have never let me down. Each one has worked well. Each one of them did what I wanted and each was obviously capable of doing a lot more. They just work.

I have seen the Palm OS go from 3.5, to 5.4.7 over the years. It has steadily added greater capabilities, without compromising the user experience (OK, it took me a while to relearn Graffiti 2). I have seen the hardware steadily improve in terms of feature set and overall quality - and the retail price has remained reasonable.

I compare that with the experiences of my colleagues and some of IT department geeks who purchased or were given WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever based devices - HP and Dell mostly. They seem to have nothing but complaints about their devices. (Did I tell you the story of one my partners who smashed his XDA II out of sheer frustration?)

I visit here at PIC a few times a week to check on news, to see if there is any new software to try, and to generally check the Palm community 'buzz'. What do I see? I see an awful lot of bad karma. Complaint upon complaint and people constantly telling how much better M$ based products are - which is completely contrary to what I have seen.

I also see a collection of individuals who consistently try to turn every piece of news about Palm into a negative. Mostly, they do not rely on facts - just supposition, hyperbole, innuendo and, let's face it, some pretty big lies too. This is on a Palm enthuasist's site!

And we are not talking here about some Newbie who has a basic problem or some teething problem with a newly released device. We are talking about people who seem to have a fixation about Palm. These people seem to be obsessed. And all they seem to want is the destruction of a company which, in my opinion, has consistently produced a great line of products (ie, not perfect, but great). That's an important point - they are not complaining about problems which should be fixed; what they want is for Palm to be history. Why? (I ask myself.)

Then I go to other Palm enthuasist sites. Guess what? It's the same people saying the same things. (Don't they get tired of typing the same thing over and over?)

When I visit PPC sites (like pocketpcthoughts.com) I see exactly the same spin being put on anything relating to Palm. And guess what - the forums contain posts from some of the people who post all the negative comments here.

Putting 2 and 2 together, the conclusion seems inescapable - Palm's commercial rivals are trying to run an orchestrated campaign with the sole objective of undermining the great grass-roots user support which Palm has built up over the years - support that is from happy customers (like me).

And because I'm so tired of these Whiners slandering the company which produces the products I use every day (and love), I try to point out that 'the other side' lives in a glass house and they should be the last to be throwing stones.

Does that make me an 'apologist' (by your definition)? If so, then fine by me - I'm proud to be a Palm enthusiast - not matter what names you may call me.

And, if my observations about the shorcommings of 'the other side' annoy the Whiners half as much as their orchestrated Fear Uncertain and Doubt campaign annoys me, then I'm glad.

Just remember, Whiners, this is a Palm enthusiast's site. If you don't like that, they you can always go back to your buddies over at pocketpcthoughts.com - where you can reassure each other about how superior M$ based devices really are - who knows, if you say often enough, you might even believe it yourselves. (Losers.)

Yours defiantly,

Is this the best you can do? Stay in school, Bubba. PLEASE.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/31/2005 4:02:03 AM # Q
> People use PDAs as an organizer.

Hey, Voice, your employers will be very disappointed in you. You see, you have now admitted what they have tried to deny for years. Their whole 'you can do more' marketing campaign was based on the knowledge that the poor-excuse-for-an-organiser PIM component of WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever could never compete with what even a low end Palm can do in terms of time/contact management. It's a classic marketing tactic - if you can't compete, disparage the rival. We still see a lot of that here on PIC even today.

So now you've sunk to taking quotes out of context? How lame. Let's just see that quote in its orginal context, Bubba:

"People use PDAs as an organizer, but if that was all they did there would be no need to sell anything other than a few cheap Zires. Unfortunately for Palm, traditional PIM functions can easily be taken over by modern cell phones. CONNECTED PDAs are the future. And to be useful as a connected PDA, multitasking is a must. The fact that you don't see multitasking as being important suggests to me that you've never used your PDA to connect to the Internet. Once you start using a PDA as a mobile browser, you'll quickly get frustrated that you have to close out your browsing session EVERY TIME you need to do something else in another app. If Palm could come up with a simple way to allow the browser and two or three other apps to remain open at the same time (and support multiple browser windows) I think most users would be satisfied. As with desktops, usually only a few apps ever need to be open at the same time. I agree that PPC/Windows Mobile has a suboptimal User Interface, with too many taps being needed to do things. Also, switching apps + closing programs should be handled better. Unfortunately for Palm, these UI problems can easily be overcome with the addition of third party programs (many are freeware!), while NO third party program can overcome the limitations of the PalmOS architecture. Also - especially if you're not familiar with the advantages of the PalmOS UI - people that use Windows Mobile can quickly adapt to the UI anyway."

If you're going to take part in the discussion here, at least try to not stoop to such sleazy tactics. If you're finding that you have no convincing response to the points I've raised, perhaps you should simply admit that you (again) lost the debate, S T F U and slink away into the night.

By the way, besides Surur, most of the people at Palminfocenter that have recently made posts critical of Palm/PalmSource's efforts are actually experienced PalmOS users. hkklife, Mike Cane, TVoR, Kent Pribbernow, etc have all probably each been using PalmOS devices for over six years. In fact, some of us started out as early adopters with the original Pilot. If you feel better by suggesting that those critical of Palm are actually Microsoft employees, be my guest. Unfortunately, your smear tactics don't change the facts that have been outlined here before. And people aren't dumb enough to fall for your FUD, as the late RhinoSteve also found out before he mysteriously disappeared from Palminfocenter.

Bill Gates TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 7/31/2005 4:26:00 AM # Q
svrontis fallaciously claimed
Shall we do a challenge? Name me a typical WinMob unit, we'll look up the reviews and compare battery life with a roughly equivalent Palm unit. I vote that we select the x50v. Let me know which unit you want to choose. (The comparison must be done on the basis of the stock-standard unit - I don't want any tiresome arguments about replacement batteries. OK?)

Thats a bit difficul. You chose a device with a VGA screen, dual wireles and a 624 Mhz processor. Strangely enough I could not find ANY Palm devices even roughly equivalent. I decided to grab a "typical" Palm unit then, the Tunsgten T3. What do you know, the Axim beats the T3, despite the faster processor.

PalmOne Tungsten T3: 2 hours 10 minutes
Dell Axim X50v: 2 hours 35 minutes

http://www.palmfocus.com/treo650.php

Do you know what a job it was trying to find objective battery tests for Palm devices. Torture tests are just not done.

Homer: "Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?"
Marge: "Sometimes..."

Surur

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/31/2005 4:56:43 AM # Q
Surur, How about the 17 hour 'torture' test done by mobiletechreview.com on the TE2?



RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/31/2005 5:04:50 AM # Q
Ok, how about the Dell Axim x50 (not the x50v).

mobiletechreview.com said this:

"That said, battery life is average for a Pocket PC, giving about 3 hours and 15 minutes of actual use with the Auto power setting in average conditions consisting of PIM use, working with MS Office documents, surfing the web for an hour using WiFi, gaming for 45 minutes and playing a few short videos.
"

Infosync had this to say about the T5:

"The batter is also improved to 1300 mAh, a much needed improvement over the T3. palmOne also improved the power management system, as the T5 was able to play music continually with the screen off for a very respectable 7 hours, 15 minutes, more than three times the length of the T3 in the same tests."

So if the T5 battery is 3 times better than the T3, how many times better than the x50 or the x50v?

Quit while you are behind, grasshopper.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
svrontis @ 7/31/2005 5:27:59 AM # Q
Correction: It was Infosync (not mobiletechreview.com, as I said above) who did the 17 hour 'torture' test on the TE2. They said this:

"In our standard play-'till-you-drop music burn down test, the E2 lasted an amazing 17 hours before refusing to keep playing music, even though it still had a tiny bit of power left. While not enough to top the Treo 650, it still beats the pants off of nearly every other handheld in the market, most of which get 6-8 hours in the same test."

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 7/31/2005 5:47:45 AM # Q

Sorry svrontis, you intentionally chose a pocketpc with poor battery life, but was still embarrased to have it beat by a Palm with the same reputation.

The HP 4705, with 624 Mhz processor, VGA screen, 64Mb ram, 128Mb rom and dual wireless also gets 17:10 hours on mp3 run down tests.
http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/vga-comparing-en.shtml

Compare with the tungsten t2 - 200Mhz processor, 32Mb Ram, bluetooth only, 320x320 screen.

See svrontis, when you start arguing using facts, instead of "supposition, hyperbole, innuendo and, let's face it, some pretty big lies too" you can only be lose.

Homer: "Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?"
Marge: "Sometimes..."

Surur

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 7/31/2005 6:34:38 AM # Q
BTW, when the Dell Axim x50v, Loox 720 and HP 4705 get the WM5.0 upgrade their battery life will improve dramatically, due to not having reserve up to 50% of battery life to preserve volatile memory. I imagine The HP 4705 will get 20 hours easily.

http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/07/14/438991.aspx

Surur

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
Foo Fighter @ 7/31/2005 8:41:48 AM # Q
Oh this is rich. Svrontis trying to prove that Microsoft, of all companies, is going under. Hypothetically speaking, even if MS's cash cows did somehow begin a massive nose dive, with the MOUNTAIN of cash they're sitting upon...it would be DECADES before they actually went belly up.

And could someone please explain to me what Microsoft's stock performance has to do with the discussion of mobile devices? If you're trying to imply that things are rocky in Redmond, or that the company will cut Windows Mobile as a loss because the stock is down?...keep on smoking that hash pipe. And again I ask, why in the name of all reason and logic would Microsoft drop WM into the dustbin when they're winning? They outsell PalmSource by nearly DOUBLE market share according to the latest studies. And number of licensees continues to grow. You think they're going to throw in the towel now? Palm zealots were making this claim when Pocket PC first hit the market with less than 10% share. People were saying then, "Microsoft will never stay in the game. Pocket PC will flop. They're not going to make it in this space".

Never thought I'd still be hearing these theories with WM in the 60% range.

Actually I rather feel sorry for you. With so much attrition (and implosion) occurring these days in the Palm economy, it's getting downright impossible to defend your position. It's little wonder that your arguments amount to grasping at straws.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
twrock @ 7/31/2005 10:54:27 AM # Q
Foo Fighter said: The problem is any company that acquires PalmSource instantly inherits its failures and financial problems. At this point Palm Inc. is doing well financially. If they buy PalmSource that changes in the blink of an eye, and they transition from a stable profitable company to a cash burning machine.

So is Palm in a catch 22 here? If they buy out PSRC the sinking ship takes them down too. If they don't (and PSRC goes under), they have to license WM and compete with the other WinMob vendors. I don't think Palm can make it as "just another Windows Mobile device".

I'm sure that's not the whole picture. But in any case, the picture does look bleak.

Maybe we'll all wake up tomorrow to some fantastic news from Palm or PSRC that'll prove the doom-sayers all wrong...

...and, then again, maybe not.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 7/31/2005 12:02:26 PM # Q
Not to contrary, but why would if not pay Palm to buy Palmsource?

PSRC
PERIOD ENDING 28-Feb-05 30-Nov-04 31-Aug-04 31-May-04
Total Revenue 17,193   19,234   18,152   17,644  
Cost of Revenue 1,231   1,140   1,240   1,640  
Gross Profit 15.962 18.094 16.912 16.004
Palm
PERIOD ENDING 28-Feb-05 30-Nov-04 27-Aug-04 31-May-04
Total Revenue 285,265   376,180   273,145   267,346  
Cost of Revenue 196,773   266,478   181,803   185,659  
Gross Profit 88.492 109.702 91.342 81.687

PALM+PSRC 104.454 127.796 108.254 97.691

It may be naive, but it doesnt look too bad.

With bettter formatting.
http://surur.sytes.net/palmpluspalmsource.png

Surur

FUD Crushing + mowing the Astroturf...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/31/2005 12:55:54 PM # Q
So is Palm in a catch 22 here? If they buy out PSRC the sinking ship takes them down too. If they don't (and PSRC goes under), they have to license WM and compete with the other WinMob vendors. I don't think Palm can make it as "just another Windows Mobile device".

Palm will buy PalmSource because that was probably the plan all along (see conspiracy theory link at the bottom of this post).

- First PalmSource stock needs to plummet to near penny stock levels so the takeover bid will be painless.

- When PalmSource is absorbed back into Palm, remember Palm will no longer have to pay (itself!) licensing fees, plus it gets whatever is left of PalmSource's (dwindling) cash reserves. The $30 million "gift" Palm gave PalmSource appears to have been nothing more than an absurdly bold way of fleecing yet more money from Palm's victimized investors. This shell game is getting out of control. I wonder if Nagel quit because he was getting scared that if things unravel he'd end up like Michael Milliken, Jeffrey Skilling or Bernie Ebbers.


If you don't think PalmSource stock will soon be worthless, ask yourself why insiders like David Nagel, Gabi Schindler, etc are trying to dump their stocks as quickly as possible.


And to the person trying to spin that Microsoft is somehow in a bad financial situation, here's a couple things to chew on:

- They're probably sitting on more cash reserves than any other company on the planet (despite being sodomized by a series of bogus lawsuits they've lost primarily because everyone loves to hate Big Bad Micro$oft).

- http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT&t=my&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=aapl

'Nuff said

;-O

Hugs and Kisses

Your Pal,

Billy G




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
AdamaDBrown @ 7/31/2005 2:18:48 PM # Q
Shall we do a challenge? Name me a typical WinMob unit, we'll look up the reviews and compare battery life with a roughly equivalent Palm unit. I vote that we select the x50v. Let me know which unit you want to choose. (The comparison must be done on the basis of the stock-standard unit - I don't want any tiresome arguments about replacement batteries. OK?)

Absolutely, let's. I propose X50v versus LifeDrive, and X50 520 MHz versus T5. As it happens, I've had all four of these, and already have performed battery tests.

LifeDrive vs. X50v, wireless test results.

Both units had Bluetooth and WiFi active until 15% battery remaining. The LD's microdrive was not used at all.

LifeDrive: 2 hours, 50 minutes.
X50v: 3 hours, 44 minutes.

T5 vs. X50, wireless test results.

The T5 had Bluetooth on, the X50 both Bluetooth and WiFi (the latter automatically shut down at 25% battery remaining). The T5's backlight was set to minimum brightness, while the X50 was at 50%.

T5: 5 hours, 4 minutes.
X50: 5 hours, 52 minutes.

I'm really not trying to push anything here, but I am trying to make a point. People continue to spread this myth that Palms are so much better for battery life than PocketPCs, but it isn't true. If you want it to be true, Palm has to start building better machines.

I was refering to Wisbar. Users instal it so that when they 'close' an application it is actually closed, rather than running in the background.

I think you fail to understand WISbar. It is a task switcher. It doesn't automatically close any program running in the background, it lets the user choose whether to close a program or minimize it, as well as quick and easy movement between open programs.

That doesn't exactly help the poor guy who will buy a WinMob 2003 SE unit today

Yes, and note the use of the word FINALLY. The PocketPC users aren't any happier about the delay than you are, and they'll say so. One little difference, though, is that a PocketPC user can get excellent 3rd party Word software for as little as $15-20. In this, it's like most of the deficiencies in the PPC platform: it can be corrected with software. I don't see third-party multitasking and driver development software for Palm.

For goodness sake, people have been complaining about missed alarms and ActiveSync problems for 5 or 6 years now and these issues have STILL not been rectified.

The missed alarm problem only occured about two years ago, and was fixed almost a year and a half ago. Likewise, ActiveSync is nowhere near the disaster that it once was, to the point where I can't remember the last time that I had a problem syncing a PocketPC. Again, mythology in place of facts.

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
twrock @ 7/31/2005 10:25:42 PM # Q
Not to contrary, but why would if not pay Palm to buy Palmsource?

Yes, that is the conclusion I have reached as well. I'm just trying to get Foo Fighter to explain his perspective more fully.

TVOR has reached the conclusion that this was all a conspiracy from the start to make a lot of money for a few people on the inside. I'm not yet convinced. I think the evidence can be interpreted in multiple ways. Just because someone can propose a plausible explanation, doesn't mean it is true. Time may tell.

I still see this as a series of very bad business decisions coupled with some (minimal) bad luck and exacerbated by the deep pockets at MS and the perception of the average computer user (i.e. people who didn't know that programs like Wordsmith worked better than Pocket Word). And the withdrawl of Sony (and the Acer debacle) left Palm without a realistic presence in Asia (that's big, whether Americans understand it or not). Admittedly, I still haven't figured out whether the CMS acquisition is going to pay off.

And can it be turned around? I'm not sure any more. It'll take some serious work and serious business smarts. And maybe someone needs to quit paying out huge severance packages to execs who don't deliver. Let's see, how many really good programmers could you hire for a few million dollars?

Hey, why doesn't someone pull an Iacoca? Come on in for a $1 yearly salary, turn this thing around, and then prove what you are worth. If in a couple of years this thing is really moving forward, then company heaps praise and money upon you. But if not, you walk away with your $2, no hard feelings. But maybe it is already too late, and anyone with enough smarts to do it has enough smarts to avoid it.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
ChiA @ 8/2/2005 11:57:33 AM # Q
Voice of Reason said:
Macs still sell (though in relatively miniscule numbers compared to Windows) because some people like the idea of using a non-Windows environment; because of the zombie-like obedience of Mac Cultists; because Microsoft needs Mac to stay around so Windows isn't considered a monopoly; and perhaps least important of all, because in some ways it is actually a good OS.

Macs still sell because people want to use the internet without having their computers and e-mail assaulted by a barrage of viruses, trojans and spyware.

Besides, Microsoft needs Apple to stay around so it can copy its ideas and put them into the next version of Windows.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
ChiA @ 8/2/2005 7:48:10 PM # Q
The Voice of Reason said: The fact that people will buy an iPod shuffle instead of a better quality/better featured/less expensive competitor underscores how good Apple is about marketing + brainwashing its customers.

Why stop at Apple?
The fact that people bought Windows 3.1/95/98/ME instead of a better quality/better featured (OS/2, BeOS, even MacOS)/less expensive (Linux) competitor underscores how good Microsoft is about marketing + brainwashing its customers.

Voice of Reason said: Tapwave offered advanced hardware specs and solid software, yet somehow remained utterly clueless about marketing, even to the bitter end.
So what's your aim? You criticise Apple for their marketing their product and making a success of it and yet you criticise Tapwave for their lack of marketing for their product.

And yes people want features but they want reliability and ease of use too. I think that's where the success of the iPod lies - you don't have to be a nerd in order to use it. There's no point throwing in features if you can't rely on them to reliably work! The iPods represent a balance between features and ease of use. Incidentally Mac sales are reasonably good too - at margins and volumes most other PC manufacturers would envy.

If Palm and PalmSource can conjure the same set of features as WinMob but easier to use then with the right marketing they'll make bucketloads of money.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
sr4 @ 8/2/2005 8:35:15 PM # Q

I don't think Palm can make it anymore. Win CE just has too much momentum. Its popping up in the weirdest places, such as these two devices from the Akihabara website.

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_9959.html
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_9939.html

Surur

Unfortunately, you're wrong. Dead wrong.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/3/2005 12:14:17 AM # Q
The Voice of Reason said: The fact that people will buy an iPod shuffle instead of a better quality/better featured/less expensive competitor underscores how good Apple is about marketing + brainwashing its customers.

Why stop at Apple?
The fact that people bought Windows 3.1/95/98/ME instead of a better quality/better featured (OS/2, BeOS, even MacOS)/less expensive (Linux) competitor underscores how good Microsoft is about marketing + brainwashing its customers.

I mentioned Apple because it's a relevant example that most people are familiar with. The advantages of Microsoft's desktop OSes go well beyond their own intrinsic merits and into the realms of standardization, interoperability, company stability, availability of support, momentum, inertia, and perceived weaknesses of all of their competition. And never forget: OSes are only as good as the apps available for the platform. (PalmOS has long since frittered away the app advantage they once enjoyed over PPC.) No, I'm not a Windows fanboy - I'm just pragmatic enought to realize that Microsoft and its core apps and OSes are a standard for a reason and bucking that standard can create more grief than it's worth just to make a [deluded] "I'm a nonconformist" statement.

It's quite easy to destroy any argument you could make in favor of a typical business (or even end user) choosing the non-Windows OSes you present. Choose BeOS over Windows? Are you serious? Don't make me laugh. Anyone dumb enough to have banked on Pépé Gassée's "fantasy OS" deserves to have been left stranded for seriously supporting such an amateurish company of wide-eyed dreamers. MacOS? Again, get serious. Until the recent Unix-based rewrite, this was a dead-end OS that forced you into bending over in the prison shower for Apple as they had their way with your tender regions, pounding you with absurdly overpriced, underwhelming hardware. Apple's announced intention to switch to Intel processors only occurred because even Mac Sheep are starting to see through the wool that's been pulled over their eyes for the past 15 years. OS/2? At the time it indeed was a better OS than its Windows opposition, but with poor app support and slow-witted overall company support, it deserved to go the way of the dodo. Linux? If the average consumer is afraid of installing apps + rooting around even slightly with a plug and play OS like Windows, how the he11 would they do with Linux? Face it - desktop Linux is an OS For Geeks Only.

Voice of Reason said: Tapwave offered advanced hardware specs and solid software, yet somehow remained utterly clueless about marketing, even to the bitter end.
So what's your aim? You criticise Apple for their marketing their product and making a success of it and yet you criticise Tapwave for their lack of marketing for their product.

And yes people want features but they want reliability and ease of use too. I think that's where the success of the iPod lies - you don't have to be a nerd in order to use it. There's no point throwing in features if you can't rely on them to reliably work! The iPods represent a balance between features and ease of use. Incidentally Mac sales are reasonably good too - at margins and volumes most other PC manufacturers would envy.

If Palm and PalmSource can conjure the same set of features as WinMob but easier to use then with the right marketing they'll make bucketloads of money.

I don't criticize Apple for fleecing ignorant customers. Apple's marketing company could sell ice to Eskimos and sand to Bedouin. Svengali Steve Jobs could easily sell his feces as an iPoo™ to Mac Cultists aroung the world. I find the fleecing of the naive to be vaguely distasteful and would prefer to see products succeed solely based on merit. Were that the case, everyone would be using PDAs from HandEra syncing with their Amiga desktops. Unfortunately, in the Real World, success is only partially based on merit.

Yes, iPods are a seminal, intuitive, simple-yet-brilliant design. So were the original Palms. And like Palm, Apple is milking its reputation by charging steak prices for hamburger hardware. As with Palm, Apple has issued only incremental updates to the hardware. As with Palm, competitors with better features/price/quality are available. As with Palm, for a while Apple had a market almost all to itself. As with Palm, Apple got greedy, cynical and lazy. As with Palm, Apple is going to get its a$$ KICKED when the fad dies out. Unlike Palm, Apple has: a charismatic, visionary leader; a large group of sheep-like users to rely on in hard times; brilliant marketing; the cachet derived from once having been a leader in the computer industry; a lot of cash reserves; a certain usefulness to Microsoft. But even Apple can become obsolete if they fail to jump on emerging fads (iPhone, iVids) or jumping off dead horses (the [blasphemous!] PowerPC -> Intel switch).

Mac sales are probably less than 2% of the market, despite the B.S. spin Mac Cultists put on things. Palm quoting 200,000? developers, tens of thousands of apps, cumulative sales of "over 30,000,000" PalmOS PDAs is more B.S. we can do without. These companies BOTH need to S T F U and start INNOVATING rather than continually milking designs that are going dry. Palm can no longer compete with Windows Mobile because once a company starts coasting instead of RUNNING SCARED, they are officially A Dead Company Walking. It also would take at least a year or two for a new green lighted product to move from the lab to the hands of consumers. Unfortunately, the following fable is a FREAKIN' LIE:

http://www.ivyjoy.com/fables/tortoise.html

Competitors don't wait for you to pass them in The Real World. Microsoft, eBay, Wal-Wart (yuck!), Amazon.com, Dell, Toyota, Honda, etc are all very different companies, but all show the importance of pushing the envelope/evolving/thinking "outside the box" (if I may use a dotcom phrase I despise). By taking the easy road and beating a dead Garnet in addition to continuing a tradition of ex-Apple reject nepotism (Gassé's Be engineers take a big part of the blame the Cobalt Catastrophe), Palm has sealed its fate. The Palm "split" and then "merger" will be the fitting conclusion to this modern day tragedy.

TVoR, Inc.™



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Don't want to Turn this into Apple vs Palm but...
ChiA @ 8/3/2005 6:20:19 AM # Q
The thing is unlike Palm, Apple has brought features to its products before its competitors:

USB - invented by Intel but at first almost no PC manufacturer decided to use it. When Apple implemented it into the iMac it was derided for not being compatible with serial/parallel peripherals but look at how standard USB is now.

Wi-Fi - iBook was first notebook to have internal wi-fi adaptor as an option in 1999. Dell then followed a few months later. All other PC manufacturers followed a few years later.

NOW: ALL Apple laptops come with built-in Bluetooth 2.0 and wi-fi AS STANDARD. How many PC laptops have Bluetooth 2.0 now?

I'm not saying Apple is perfect but credit where credit is due.

The unfortunate thing for Apple in the 90s and Palm/PalmSource now is that they both seemed to be staffed by people without the necessary vision to drive the company forward. The Apple rejects who landed at Palm were kicked out for a good reason. Apple has had to work very hard to turn around the damage done to itself in the 90s and had the cash reserve to do so.

As you pointed out innovation is half the struggle, the other battle is to somehow cut through your competitor's marketing and FUD.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: For All the Microsoft MVPs out there...
hkklife @ 8/3/2005 9:32:27 AM # Q
Apple is good about the "small tidbits" such as USB, firewire, wi-fi/airport, Bluetooth and whatnot as far as connectivity is concerned.

However, I cannot help but think that those are pieces of window dressing designed to mask the fact that your average Wintel box mops up the floor with a Mac spec-wise. Apple is still shipping, what, Radeon 9600s as their flagship graphics card? That was a midline PC card a year or more ago!

Still, Apple creates and maintains a BUZZ around their products that is simply unparalleled in the industry nowadays. The LifeDrive got, what, two weeks of mainstream coverage then quickly fizzled out. Yet a beat-up, dirty gen-1 iPod from years ago still gets admiring smiles when you're on the subway (and a mugging too, if you're in the wrong place at the wrong tine!) Palm, at the HEIGHT of its golden years, barely scratched the surface of that recognition when the V debuted and certainly hasn't had that kind of mojo since...though the Treo 600 came admirably close there for a while.

Clone PC manufacturers & Asian PC peripheral companies are still selling USB hubs and mice'n stuff in translucent iPod teal/white. Retooling costs aside, that's a pretty strong testament to the mark Apple managed to make on the Wintel industry-good, bad, or otherwise.

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PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?

Foo Fighter @ 7/30/2005 7:17:36 PM # Q
Does anyone find it rather strange, or ironic at least, that PalmSource continues to list Tapwave as a licensee? I didn't expect them to remove their listing immediately, but it seems a bit silly to proudly boast a partner company and product that no longer exists.

They removed Nagel faster than this!



-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee? Of course!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/30/2005 9:22:12 PM # Q
Not really. If you look at their list of licensees, half of them either are no longer developing/shipping PalmOS hardware at all or only ship a few thousand units per quarter:

Sony (Still listed because they're still paying PalmSource a couple hundred thousand $ per quarter? Puhleeeeese!)

AlphaSmart (Sold last quarter and who knows how long the Dana will be around.)

Tapwave (Has been a Dead Company Walking for over six months. The dozen or so people that actually bought Zodiacs were apparently the only ones not in on this not-so-secret secret.)

Garmin (Looks like they've switched to Windows Mobile now. The original PalmOS model has now been expunged from most of Garmin's dealer inventories.)

Kyocera (When was their last PalmOS device made?)

Lenovo (Are they making ANY PalmOS PDAs?)

Fossil (Get serious.)

PiTech (Puhleeese.)

GSPDA (Well... at least they're trying.)

Aceeca (This town's not big enough for Aceeca and Symbol.)

Symbol (A good, legitimate PalmOS licensee... as in PalmOS 4!)

Samsung (Let us never speak their name again.)

LG (Don't really count since they probably won't ship product for at least another year... if ever.)


Looks like PalmSource is in major denial regarding how many REAL licensees they actually have...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?
Foo Fighter @ 7/30/2005 11:20:59 PM # Q
At least these companies actually exist (sans Tapwave). Which is more than we can say for the fictional 12-25 "new" licensees Nagel and Mace claimed the company was sitting on. It's been nearly two years since I first heard that claim uttered, and nothing came to fruition.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?
Foo Fighter @ 7/30/2005 11:27:07 PM # Q
Speaking of mystery licensees. Whatever became of the Nintendo deal? I seem to recall an agreement whereby Nitendo would license PalmOS PIM apps (or something to that effect).

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com
RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?
whydidnt @ 7/31/2005 1:53:24 PM # Q
svrontis says:

"That's not the problem at all. I'll tell you what the problem is."

Then goes on to say there isn't a probelm at all. It's just that WM enthusiast can't seem to mind their own business and leave site such as PIC alone. I guess if none of us that own both WM and Palm devices ever complained then PalmSource wouldn't be losing licensee's such as Tapwave left and right. Stick your head in the sand if you want, but some of us don't feel like doing that.

Bully for you, I'm happy you like your Palm devices. But the whole conspiracy arguement goes a bit too far....

"Putting 2 and 2 together, the conclusion seems inescapable - Palm's commercial rivals are trying to run an orchestrated campaign with the sole objective of undermining the great grass-roots user support which Palm has built up over the years - support that is from happy customers (like me)."

Palm has killed their grass roots supports buy ignoring the platform and those users for the last 5 years. You tout the benefit of going from POS 3.X to 5.x with few changes to the user experience. Despite adding greater capabilites. However, the hard cold facts are that there aren't that many new capabilities and there should have been changes to the user experience in 5 years. Here it is 5+ years later and I STILL can't have more than 16 categories on my 4 GB device - and I'm STILL limited on the size of my notes, and I STILL can't download a WebPage and e-mail at the same time. These are all things that POS should be delivering in a modern hand held. Simply ignoring that fact and blaming the competition will continue Palm down the death Spiral they have taken.

You seem to miss the entire point of my post-- I want Palm to succeed, I want them to have a great product and compete in the market. They just keep doing a lousy job of it and as long as they do it's in no one's best interest to ignore the facts.


RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?
AdamaDBrown @ 7/31/2005 2:02:30 PM # Q
There was a report to that effect from a game website, but PalmSource later denied everything.

whydidnt = Surur???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/31/2005 3:16:33 PM # Q
Same stilted English. Similar phrasing. Hmmm...

Maybe svrontis is right after all...

Still doesn't change the fact that if Palm/PalmSource made good products it would be a lot harder to legitimately criticize them.

Astroturfing vs. FUD: in the end, none of this matters - if PalmSource makes a good OS soon and Palm improves the quality + features of its devices, they'll both survive. And if they don't, they won't. Period.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?
sr4 @ 7/31/2005 3:37:09 PM # Q
Talk about spreading malicious rumors. I am only me...

Surur

Another PalmSource executive cashes out
sr4 @ 7/31/2005 4:23:36 PM # Q

VOR, just to show I hold you no grudges for mistaking me for some-one else, this one's for you (and your stock manipulation conspiracy theory)

Only days after the announcement that ex-CEO David Nagel is planning to sell part of his inventory of PalmSource stock, Gabriele Schindler, PalmSource Senior Vice President and major shareholder, filled Form 144 to announce her intention to sell all of her 55,220 restricted shares (with a current value of about $450k).

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4610

Surur

FUD? Not if it's true.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/31/2005 4:39:34 PM # Q
RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?
sr4 @ 7/31/2005 3:37:09 PM #

Talk about spreading malicious rumors. I am only me...

Surur



Another PalmSource executive cashes out
sr4 @ 7/31/2005 4:23:36 PM #


VOR, just to show I hold you no grudges for mistaking me for some-one else, this one's for you (and your stock manipulation conspiracy theory)


Only days after the announcement that ex-CEO David Nagel is planning to sell part of his inventory of PalmSource stock, Gabriele Schindler, PalmSource Senior Vice President and major shareholder, filled Form 144 to announce her intention to sell all of her 55,220 restricted shares (with a current value of about $450k).

If you are not posting under another name, I apologize for my previous post. Vaguely Asian phrasing + posts pointing out problems with Palm are always assumed to spring from the same source. It has been interesting to see posts here at PIC from Surur/Ska/Hoplites/BlueAnon over the years, though. You're one of the few people on the Palm sites that actually cuts through the B.S. by posting FACTS derived from independent sources. But unlike you, I'm still rooting for PalmOS to turn things around. Battlestar Galactica AdamaDBrown is one of the few people I trust to tell it like it is with as little spin as possible. After reading all the B.S. that's been posted here in recent weeks, I'd have to say that if I was a newbie in the market for a PDA I be scared to buy anything.

[Tip to newbies looking for a great PDA that will easily last 5 years: pick up a European Sony CLIE TH55 with Wi-Fi + Bluetooth. If you look hard enough you'll find one and you won't be disappointed.]

I already posted about Gabi and Dave's selloff http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7990#110157 but thanks anyway.

Here's a Yahoo link confirming this info: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/it?s=PSRCh

PalmSource stock has nosedived to less than $8/share. http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PSRC&t=2y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=
The insider selloff will drive prices down some more. Next blow will be the announcement of a Windows Mobile Treo 700 for Sprint, likely available before the end of 2005. Then will come the announcement of horrific numbers from the current quarter's SEC filing. The final blow (coup de grace) needed to drive stock prices below $3/share (threshold for takeover) will be leaked info outlining problems/delays with PalmLinux.

I'm on record for predicting the timeline. Vegas odds are that I'm right. (But if I'm wrong, I'm sure Ms./Mr. Cane, svrontis, the late RhinoSteve's Danish widow, etc will all be here front and center, screeching that I eat crow while being publicly flogged. Ain't gonna happen. Only fools bet against TVoR.)


Steve "The dancing monkeyboy" Ballmer TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?
hkklife @ 8/2/2005 10:52:17 AM # Q
Voice is right. All of the people here whom I trust have been using the platform for at least 5-6 years, if not more. I've used Palm-powered devices for PIM since 1996 (and starting in probably '99/'00) really started exoploring the breadth of the OS' capabilities and functions. I'm not a developer nor am I associated with the mobile tech industry in any way. I'm just a concerned long-time user who is concerned with the actions of the past half-decade. I've supported the company & the platform since basically day #1 and have invested too much time, money, and energy into the platform to give up on it completely at this stage.

For the record, I do most of the ranting, raving and doom-saying on the front page commentaries but do try to contribute frequently to the forums (provide advice to n00bs, answer basic questions etc). I certainly wouldn't want to be considered a troll nor someone who's full of p!ss and vinegar and won't offer anything constructive to less experienced users. If I feel like suggesting someon not buy a Zodiac at this point in time then I am entitled to that opinion. Ever heard of Caveat Emptor? If I were just starting out on a mobile platform that had a couple of vultures circling overhead I'd definitely want someone to give me a few pointers!

and I STILL say that Palm needs to assimilate PalmSource sometime in the next 18 months if the platform is going to have a snowball's chance in you know where of existing EVEN as a niche player in the mobile market.

RE: PalmSource Still Lists Tapwave as Licensee?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/3/2005 2:26:22 AM # Q
All of the people here whom I trust have been using the platform for at least 5-6 years, if not more. I've used Palm-powered devices for PIM since 1996 (and starting in probably '99/'00) really started exoploring the breadth of the OS' capabilities and functions. I'm not a developer nor am I associated with the mobile tech industry in any way. I'm just a concerned long-time user who is concerned with the actions of the past half-decade. I've supported the company & the platform since basically day #1 and have invested too much time, money, and energy into the platform to give up on it completely at this stage.

I feel your pain. I've also been with the PalmOS platform from day 1 and have decided to make my Last Stand, holed up in my bunker filled with CLIE UX50, TH55 and VZ90. Even today I'm still amazed by these three models. It's especially fun to see people get slackjawed when they see photos or video running on the VZ90's incredible OLED screen. Sony came SO close to perfection - the UX50 with a slightly better battery, 128 MB RAM, slightly more tactile keyboard buttons and an OLED screen would have been the Holy Grail. I hope someone in Sony's skunkworks depoartment will at least release the photos so people will stop saying I'm crazy... ;-O

Since by 2004 traditional PDAs were almost as fully developed as they were going to ever get, my stockpile will probably still be serviceable for another 10 years. (I even loaded up on a few EB40 batteries, just in case.) Meanwhile, my 2 yeay old UX50 keeps on looking great and working as smoothly as ever - despite over a dozen falls (ONTO PAVEMENT, PARKING LOTS, CONCRETE, ETC). I'm worried the VZ90 will not be able to withstand even a single similar fall!

hkklife, if more people were like you and had higher expectations of Palm, they would have been forced to improve three or four years ago. Never settle.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

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