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    Comments on: Rumor: Video of a Treo 670 Running Windows Mobile
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The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PIC is not responsible for them in any way. login or register for free in order to post comments.  RE: Catch 22gfunkmagic @ 8/6/2005 1:21:50 AM #
Eh... believe or not, but the first next gen treo to arrive will probably be Cobalt imo... I support http://Tapland.com/ -------------------- RE: Catch 22
I agree with Gfunk. I think Palm/P1's secretly been tweaking/funding Cobalt work so it's in a reasonably finished and usable state. They'll release it in a small and select number of devices (Two Treos, a LifeDrive or two and maybe a few Tungstens) over the next 18-24 months until PoL is finished. So in '06 you'll have : High-end devices: Cobalt in '07: High-end: PoL RE: Catch 22
hkklife wrote: So in '06 you'll have : High-end devices: Cobalt in '07: High-end: PoL You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees. PoL isn't necessarily going to be more "high end" than the Cobalt phones by the way, although it can definitely push that envelope. What's interesting to PalmSource about Linux is the way they can push a more powerful Palm OS down into some lower cost handsets that hit the market sweet spot as well as power up the high end for the early adopters. The mistake with Cobalt was not anything about the OS per se, but failing to appreciate all the extra work that PalmSource and the licensees would have to do to create the drivers and system support software to interface a proprietary kernel with all the different chipsets and hardware the vendors wanted to use. Symbian and MS have the massive resources and engineering staff to go bottom-to-top, but PalmSource does not, which left a lot of heavy lifting to the licensees. I'm not an "apologist" for PalmSource as TVoR likes to represent me. I just think its preferable to point to the actual facts about why Cobalt has been so slow to market than to invent or twist my own imagined ones. PalmSource squandered a lead and is in a tough spot now, no question. They needed to focus their energies sooner on their strengths: building powerful mobile software frameworks and user experience, not developing proprietary kernels and drivers. Having said that, Linux was the right decision and it's also attractive to the device vendors because of the open aspect and the freedom it will give them to create devices the way they want them (instead of the way Microsoft or Symbian wants them). Since PoL is basically Cobalt with a Linux kernel the work being done on it *may* even be breathing a bit of life into some Cobalt devices before the PoL devices hit the market: the migration path looks smooth, even if the driver issue is still a downer. We'll see. At any rate, Linux (with or without Palm OS) is about to positively explode on mobile devices and will give MS and Symbian a big run for their money. Having the whole Palm OS application stack available on Linux would add even more momentum to that (apps are a major area where mobile Linux still falls short). If it weren't for this and the decisions PalmSource made in December we might very well have seen the end of Palm OS. As it stands, I think there's cause for hope.
RE: Catch 22Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 2:16:09 PM #
>> "You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees." What licensees? Palm is the last consumer focussed license (and one of the last PERIOD) PalmSource licensee offering PalmOS devices. If Cobalt does appear from "other" licensees, it will have no impact on us because it won't be available here in the US or Europe. Perhaps one of the Asian vendors will pick it up, but there is no one left.
Cutting through the B.S.The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 6:58:08 PM #
You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees. What "other licensees", Beersy? Remember - a licensee loading a copy of Cobalt onto 20 beta test PDAs or smartphones doesn't count as "a few Cobalt devices coming".
Beersy, you're one of the most blatant, boot-licking, brown-nosing apologists I've seen recently. Your recent performance in the (poor) Michael Mace interview thread at that other Palm site lead many to wonder if you were actually paid by Palm to Astroturf + "ride shotgun" for them. Fortunately Dianne Hackborn stepped in and caught herself up in her web of SPIN and excuses (again), showing readers what a pile of steaming dung Cobalt is (was?). It's amusing to see how Apologists and PalmSource employees both run and hide when the tough questions are asked. Suggestion: if you know you can't defend your position, either S T F U or else do like Jeff Kirvin does and hide out on a milquetoast fanboy site where they either delete or denigrate every post that speaks the (ugly) truth about the platform. Without more honesty, Palm and PalmOS are DEAD. By the way do you do coding for PPC/WinMob? Has your percent or volume of PalmOS business declined in the past year? Are you worried? The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Catch 22
TVoR wrote: By the way do you do coding for PPC/WinMob? Yep. Used to be about half my consulting business. Has your percent or volume of PalmOS business declined in the past year? Are you worried? Nope, Palm OS has increased from two years ago relative to WM. There's also good demand for cross-platform WM and Palm. Most of my customers who have a preference prefer Palm OS but many think they need to keep their bases covered. Frankly, I've been surprised I *haven't* seen the Palm OS business decline relative to WM. I fully expected it, which is why I got into .NET and Java. What I can tell you are the main reasons why my customers go for Palm over WM (other developers' mileage may vary): 1. Battery life is the big one. A lot of them need devices that will run hard all day or for multiple days on a charge. These guys aren't buying Tungstens, they're buying Symbols, Aceecas, and even monochrome Zires. I was even getting projects for customers using Handspring Visors as recently as a year ago. The Zen of Palm is alive and well in the enterprise. 2. A couple of clients went with Palm OS because they were the first to have integrated GPS (Garmin iQue 3600). Of course that advantage has been leveled recently. 3. Clients who want sales force applications prefer devices that are slick looking and easy to use. The Clies were popular and after those went away the Tungsten T3 has been more popular than the HPs and Dells. Interestingly, wireless stuff hasn't taken off as much for me as you might think on either Palm or WM. I've only had one wireless project for WM phones and not that many for Treos either. I expect that to change, but for now these high-end smartphones are too pricey and the need for over-the-air data sync is not business-critical for the most important apps. 4. A lot of folks have had bad experiences with Win CE that they haven't gotten over. Biggest complaints are lost data during synchronization, failure of ActiveSync to perform working backups/restores, and total power drain when the device is just sitting around for a few hours. The problems with frequent crashes are less common with WM than they used to be (and Palm OS crashes are more frequent) but crashes are less of a problem than data loss and a lot of these data loss problems still persist. Or the perception persists, which is the same thing in business. As I'm sure you know, you guys who hang out here on PIC are not all that representative of the wider world of PDA and smart phone customers. Of course, I'm just one data point and my clients aren't necessarily typical either. But they have their perspective and it keeps me plenty busy. So if I sometimes seem apologetic about Palm OS it's mainly because I can take my apologies to the bank. I also don't mind saying that I think I understand some of the technical and market aspects of the Cobalt debacle a bit better than you, TVoR, but that's not going to keep you from making the loudest noise on a forum like this one. Make your little posts if it feels good to you. If I have time to read them after the bank I may respond from time to time. ;-)
RE: Catch 22
FooFighter wrote: What licensees? Palm is the last consumer focussed license (and one of the last PERIOD) PalmSource licensee offering PalmOS devices. If Cobalt does appear from "other" licensees, it will have no impact on us because it won't be available here in the US or Europe. Perhaps one of the Asian vendors will pick it up, but there is no one left. Palm is far and away the largest consumer focused license today, but there are plenty of other consumer licensees. Most of them sell in the larger (and cheaper) Asian market but that will change as the US catches up in its smartphone adoption, which is happening quickly now. LG is the big one to watch since they're the new one on board, of course, but GSPDA has announced it will release a Cobalt phone in Q4, as has Oswin. There are a handful of other licensees that keep renewing and I have to think that some of them have plans: Kyocera, Samsung, Lenovo. Kyocera did very well with the 7135. FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135. I know none of these account for a lot of revenue to PalmSource right now, but my statement was that I think we will see a few Cobalt devices from some of them before Palm OS for Linux comes out, not that we see them now. How successful they will be, I really have no idea. Obviously, PalmSource is banking on Linux right now, not Cobalt.
RE: Catch Beers, Kirvin, Hackborn = Lucky PierreThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 9:44:47 PM #
Of course, I'm just one data point and my clients aren't necessarily typical either. Interesting hearing your experience, Beersy. Really. I'm surprised your PalmOS business increased vs. 2 years ago (but did it decline vs. last year?), but as you admit, you're an n = 1. In my field, Palm is starting to get its a$$ spanked, partly because of their decision to ignore Wi-Fi, leaving the decrepit Tungsten C alone to battle against a dozen dual wireless PPC models. The other reason for the shift is that Palm no longer has a significant software advantage over WinMob, so individuals and companies are free to choose the best HARDWARE for their money. If Microsoft or a big software company decides to market StyleTap Platform aggressively, Palm's headaches will only worsen. Symbol has had the vertical market almost all to themselves, but I had hoped they would have put in a few more features to take up the slack when those poor, naïve yokels at HandEra were squeezed out of the market by Palm a few years ago. So if I sometimes seem apologetic about Palm OS it's mainly because I can take my apologies to the bank. We figured you were defensive for a reason. No one would say the things you've said unless there was money involved. ;-O I also don't mind saying that I think I understand some of the technical and market aspects of the Cobalt debacle a bit better than you, TVoR You're entitled to your opinion. (Don't you EVER get tired of being wrong?) Have you used a Cobalt device in REAL LIFE for an extended period of time, Beersy? If you had, you would realize Cobalt is Crap that is not worthy of the risks and demands it places upon hardware manufacturers and developers. PalmSource to hardware makers: "Can you please install our buggy, slow, underdeveloped beta OS (that lacks any apps that will actually benefit from the OS) on your brand spankin' new PDA that your company is depending on to stave off bankruptcy?" Hardware makers: "Go to Hell!" PalmSource: "Awwwwwwwww! How about if we make it look pretty?" Hardware makers: "Go to Hell!"
PalmSource to developers: "Can you please rewrite your applications to take advantage of our our buggy, slow, underdeveloped beta OS (that lacks any hardware that will actually run you recompiled apps) even though this won't bring even an extra dime into your company?" Developers: "Go to Hell!" PalmSource to developers: "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeese? Pretty Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeese? And we're sorry your apps keep breaking because elegant PalmOS has gradually turned into kludgy, hacked-up FrankenPalmOS because we were too lazy to properly fix it and advise you of all of the sloppy things we (and our buddies at pa1mOne) have done to it over the years!" Developers: "Go to Hell!" Make your little posts if it feels good to you. If I have time to read them after the bank I may respond from time to time. ;-) That's big of you, Beersy. I hope you soon decide to switch to coding for PalmOS full time. You deserve what that will bring you. Really. See you at the Ocktoberfest PalmSource developer conference in Munich this September. Your pal,
The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Catch 22
PiTech is another Palm licensee to watch. The Asians have considered the US smartphone market to be saturated for the last two years, but that's changing.
RE: Catch 22AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 10:25:25 PM #
GSPDA and Oswin are the same thing--they're both part of the same parent company. Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS. Kyocera never even produced a single unit running OS 5, let alone Cobalt. And actually, no, the 7135 did very marginally. It was late, and underpowered compared to the Treo 600 which came out around the same time. Windows based smartphones sell a couple of million units a year, the 7135 was in the tens of thousands. RE: Catch 22
FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135. I find this seriously hard to believe. Surur RE: Catch 670, 700, 69...The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 10:58:22 PM #
GSPDA and Oswin are the same thing--they're both part of the same parent company. Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS. Kyocera never even produced a single unit running OS 5, let alone Cobalt. And actually, no, the 7135 did very marginally. It was late, and underpowered compared to the Treo 600 which came out around the same time. Windows based smartphones sell a couple of million units a year, the 7135 was in the tens of thousands.
Someone else (I think it was a Palm exec? I can't remember) recently claimed that the 7135 sold more than all Windows Smartphones combined, so Beersy's probably parrotting them. No proof, but if someone said it, it must be true - no matter how unlikely it is to have happened. Next thing you know, the "Legend of the Kyocera 7135" is born. "Yep. my sister's next door neighbor's cousin's barber's mother's florist's stepdaughter's girlfriend once saw a Kyocera 7135 kill a man with its bare hands. Then it ate him. Raw. Yep. Don't ever mess with a Kyocera 7135." He's probably thinking of the 6035 (because I doubt more than 10 people actually bought that Qualcomm/Kyocera brickphone, the PDQ!) While I'm sure the 6035 did OK, do we REALLY believe it sold in the MILLIONS from 2001 - 2003? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Beersy, Beersy, Beersy. But Samsung will be back soon - mark my words. LiveFaith even posted a spy photo of their upcoming model today: http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/samsungi750.JPG http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8002#110366
Beersy's pal, The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Catch 22
So let's do a little poll here - how many of the Whiners will be buying a Treo which 'runs' WinMob 5.0? RE: Catch 22
I may get it for my wife, but 240x240 just does not do it. I want VGA, 3G, WIFI, 128MB ram I'm getting the HTC Universal. Surur RE: Catch 22
So if you are not going to get one, why all the gleeful posts (both here and over at ppcthoughts.com)? RE: Catch 22
FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135. I find this seriously hard to believe. Frankly it sounded like a stretch to me when I heard it in one of the DevCon presentations. But bear in mind they were probably talking about MS "Smartphone OS" not "Pocket PC Phone Edition". Anyway I don't have any great inside information about upcoming Cobalt phones, but I did talk with John Cook, PSRC's Director of Product Marketing last week and heard him refer yet again to "several" Cobalt devices that are in the pipeline. So if you don't like the odds that Kyocera or Samsung or whoever are producing these I'll leave it up to you who the licensees might be. PalmSource has already been seriously burned by vendors who made enthusiastic promises and then changed their plans so I don't personally believe he would say this now if he weren't pretty damned sure it's really happening. Groan if you want, but for my part I believe him. And don't misrepresent me: I have no idea what Cobalt is going to be like on a real device. The Oswin phone at DevCon was very beta. I didn't notice any problem with it in the 5 minutes I messed around with it but I've heard others say it is slow. Garnet ran slow on beta and lab hardware, too, so who knows at this point? All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it. I'll withhold judgement until I see it on a real device along with the rest of you. What PalmSource does admit, is that PalmSource and the Cobalt licensees have had a bad time with developing drivers in a timely manner--all the software that interfaces the hardware elements to the system. Time to market is really critical for phone development to be successful and they are fairly up-front now that they didn't have the engineering resources of MS or Symbian to develop phone systems top to bottom (including the drivers) in the timeline they hoped, leaving the licensees with a lot to do. Having a killer proprietary kernel with the most incredible framework and application stack on it does not get a phone to market until you have drivers for the chipsets, modems, screens... all the hardware that works with your proprietary system. That's a big part of why PalmSource has turned to Linux: so they don't have to develop and maintain the whole kernel and all the drivers and they can concentrate on the middleware framework and applications that are what make Palm OS what it is. (The demand for an open platform with more flexibility than Symbian or WM is the other big reason.) You don't have to cast about for explanations for why Cobalt has been slow to market like TVoR tries to do. They've been telling us in various ways ever since the Linux announcement in December. But there's also a difference between "slow to market" and "no to market". I don't think I'm reading into things or being really speculative to say that there will be Cobalt devices coming on the market, whether they come from Palm Inc or some other licensee(s).
RE: Catch 22
Sheesh David, where do you get off giving such calm, adult-like answers to the childish baiting that goes on here? ;-) Fortunately "you're an n = 1," so we can discount whatever you have to say. But that other guy! Wow, he's like an n = ..., you know an n = ..., well, ... what I mean is ... , his n = 1 is WAY bigger than your n = 1! Enjoy. RE: Catch 22
> I find this seriously hard to believe. Why, because Ed Hansberry hasn't told you to believe it yet? RE: Catch 22
> my repost but now even more relevant - Except you tried to do an industry analysis without taking into account what the competition are doing. Why don't you apply the same reasoning to poor old HP? The message would be something like this - HP is faced with cost-cutting pressures and declining sales, in the meantime, Palm relentlessly produces popular devices which consistently undercut HP's pricing. If HP tries to focus on high-end devices, will it have sufficient R&D to 'keep up with the Joneses' in terms of the latest feature set? Who knows (but it seems unlikely to me). If they try to produce less feature-rich devices, they run into little old Palm, who will undercut them every time. Sony faced this same dilemma. RE: Catch 22
>>>In my field, In your field. Right. That's a laugh. And stop trotting out my name and others to give your cheap little ****e of a self some sheen of legitimacy, you bastard. Palm Apologists' Last Stand: Beersy, Kirvin, svrontisThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 2:10:43 PM #
>>>FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135. >I find this seriously hard to believe. Frankly it sounded like a stretch to me when I heard it in one of the DevCon presentations. But bear in mind they were probably talking about MS "Smartphone OS" not "Pocket PC Phone Edition". If you knew it was B.S. why even say it? Were you that desperate to try to give creedence to your argument that you're willing to post blatant lies? How sad. Anyway I don't have any great inside information about upcoming Cobalt phones, but I did talk with John Cook, PSRC's Director of Product Marketing last week and heard him refer yet again to "several" Cobalt devices that are in the pipeline. So if you don't like the odds that Kyocera or Samsung or whoever are producing these I'll leave it up to you who the licensees might be. PalmSource has already been seriously burned by vendors who made enthusiastic promises and then changed their plans so I don't personally believe he would say this now if he weren't pretty damned sure it's really happening. Groan if you want, but for my part I believe him. I think (at least) one of you is taking liberties with the truth. Unless "in the pipeline" can refer to someone in the company having once made a sketch of a Cobalt phone on a c0cktail napkin. It's partly because of B.S. like this (along with rapidly declining QA) that the Palm companies have lost their reputation in the industry. And don't misrepresent me: I have no idea what Cobalt is going to be like on a real device. The Oswin phone at DevCon was very beta. I didn't notice any problem with it in the 5 minutes I messed around with it but I've heard others say it is slow. Garnet ran slow on beta and lab hardware, too, so who knows at this point? All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it. I'll withhold judgement until I see it on a real device along with the rest of you. "All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it." Wow. In that case it must be good. Beersy, that's the most pathetic defense of Cobalt I've seen in a while. I think you left out "and 'Cobalt' is a really kewl name" . I've spoken to a few engineers with extensive experience with Cobalt running on REAL devices. They all say it is pure crap. Of course, you can Palm Apologize this away by saying that's because the Oswin phone is "very beta". And I suppose the Tungsten 3 sleds running Cobalt were also "very beta". You've become as predictable as Kirvin, Beersy. You disappoint me. What PalmSource does admit, is that PalmSource and the Cobalt licensees have had a bad time with developing drivers in a timely manner--all the software that interfaces the hardware elements to the system. Time to market is really critical for phone development to be successful and they are fairly up-front now that they didn't have the engineering resources of MS or Symbian to develop phone systems top to bottom (including the drivers) in the timeline they hoped, leaving the licensees with a lot to do. Having a killer proprietary kernel with the most incredible framework and application stack on it does not get a phone to market until you have drivers for the chipsets, modems, screens... all the hardware that works with your proprietary system. That's a big part of why PalmSource has turned to Linux: so they don't have to develop and maintain the whole kernel and all the drivers and they can concentrate on the middleware framework and applications that are what make Palm OS what it is. (The demand for an open platform with more flexibility than Symbian or WM is the other big reason.) You don't have to cast about for explanations for why Cobalt has been slow to market like TVoR tries to do. They've been telling us in various ways ever since the Linux announcement in December. But there's also a difference between "slow to market" and "no to market". I don't think I'm reading into things or being really speculative to say that there will be Cobalt devices coming on the market, whether they come from Palm Inc or some other licensee(s). Beersy, I've been saying for years that Cobalt was a bad decision and that a Unix-based kernel should have been used (for reasons obvious to everyone except PalmSource/Palm). I've also posted why Cobalt was delayed (when PalmSource was being less than honest about its state of development). I've also said why Cobalt was rejected, what its weaknesses are and how it can NEVER do what was needed from a next-generation OS. In my posts I've "encouraged" PalmSource employees like the wonderful (really) Ms. Hackborn to try to be truthful with readers about what was wrong with Cobalt. In a roundabout way, eventually many of the problems I have spoken of have been admitted. Finally, people using Cobalt on a daily basis have ALL said it's Not Ready For Prime Time. Do you really believe we're soon suddenly going to see a flood of Cobalt smartphones being released over the next few months? Please. Try to THINK before you post next time. And enough with the parrotting* of Palm/PalmSource employees, already. They've proved repeatedly that what they say can't be trusted. (*I think the B.S. you quoted was from one of the speeches on Tuesday at DevCon a few months ago.) TVoR
The Palm Economy = Communism™ Show me the Proof or stop the BS!!!!!!!!!!gfunkmagic @ 8/7/2005 2:18:44 PM #
>>>>> Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS... Gawd, I'm sooo tired of people making statements like that when THERE IS NO PROOF to back it up. Please provide definitive links proving that these companies have dropped their PalmOS lisences, otherwise stop the misinformation... Dumb and DumberThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 3:18:24 PM #
Gawd, I'm sooo tired of people making statements like that when THERE IS NO PROOF to back it up. Please provide definitive links proving that these companies have dropped their PalmOS lisences, otherwise stop the misinformation... Gawd, I'm sooo tired of dumba$$es that are too clueless to read between the lines. Company X licenses PalmOS for 5 years. After two or three years they cease production of PalmOS devices. PalmOS is now in turmoil, is relatively primitive compared to its competition, and will not be able to fix these deficiencies for at least two YEARS. The logical conclusion is: Guess which is the dumba$$ answer?
The Palm Economy = Communism™ Dumb and VoRrcartwright @ 8/7/2005 3:44:42 PM #
VoR, You missed d) Major multinational tech companies don't feel compelled to reveal their planning in a very competitive market to a pompus, sophmoric, know it all who won't even post under his/her/its own name. RE: Catch 22The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 5:02:42 PM #
So I'll put you down a choosing "c", Cartwright. I choose "a". Thanks for contributing, though. The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Catch 22AdamaDBrown @ 8/7/2005 5:45:44 PM #
Kyocera hasn't released anything in almost three years. Lenovo and Samsung haven't released anything based on PalmOS in over two years. You really think these companies are still in the market? Not even close. RE: Catch 22
Foo, please don't take this the wrong way, but: 1. You seem to have a very keen interest in a WinCE Treo (at least you were pushing this idea in one of your articles recently on pocketfactory.com); and 2. You have a demonstrated ability to produce convincing videos of pdas in use (remember the famous LifeDrive videos?). Putting 1 and 2 together, is it possible that you were behind the creation of these videos? Please confirm or deny. By the way, has anyone checked the FCC's website for this Treo 670/700/whatever? Anyone heard from Mike Cane recently?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/25/2005 10:39:10 PM #
Is he OK? (Seriously.) Ryan? The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Catch 22
You know, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually miss that POS. (Pun intended). Where is MC? MC...you OK? Anyone heard from Mike Cane recently?
Yo dog, This post is simply and unapologetically for no other purpose than to give TVoR's subject-line a repeat on the '30 recent posts' list. Mike Cane...come on man... what's up??? Show us some love. RE: MC
He's out there, just not here. It's not too hard to find him if you just look a little.
I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra." 
 Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 10:50:23 PM #
Like I've said before, Palm needs a Windows Mobile Treo (will generate HUGE sales) but a WinMob Treo is the equivalent of a TROJAN HORSE. It's the kiss of death for the PalmOS platform. Adios PalmOS. We hardly knew ya. TVoR The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 10:59:56 PM #
By the way, I can't wait to hear the reaction of the dumba$$ Palm Apologists when this hits the proverbial fan. It's gonna get ugly. Real ugly. Unfortunately, Cobalt's failure ultimately has triggered the demise of the PalmOS platform. Sony understandably left (they were expected to have debuted a couple of Cobalt-powered multimedia powerhouses in 2005), and now the inability of Cobalt to delive on its promise to provide a STABLE, "pseudomultitasking" environment means Palm has no other alternative but to get in bed with Microsoft. And we all know what happens to everyone that gets into bed with Microsoft... Get the lube out, Sonny! It's sad to see that in the end, Windows didn't beat Palm - Palm beat Palm. TVoR The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
This is really just what Palm has planned all along. Come on people. A WM5 palm is 'all we really need'. Palm wins again, as always. Right... RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
Further evidence that the majority of regular posters here are the most cynical bunch alive (memo to you all by the way, stop confusing cynicism with cleverness). Anyway, what keeps getting lost in the number of discussions going on at various sites right now is the second half of the rumor: They're also going to release a Cobalt model. If the WM Treo is real, the Cobalt Treo may very well be too. This is a win/win for Palm. They can sell to Palm AND MS users. The simple math: it means more sales. For Palm Source, it's probably neglible. My guess is that few WM users buy the Treo because they've just got to have the hardware. If anything, it might even point out the failings of the WM OS versus something like Cobalt (assuming it delivers). And if it doesn't, who cares. I'd love an EV-DO, Cobalt powered, new model Treo. RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?legodude522 @ 8/5/2005 11:40:20 PM #
No comment. Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present. RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 11:41:59 PM #
This is really just what Palm has planned all along. Come on people. A WM5 palm is 'all we really need'. Palm wins again, as always. Right... If you were in charge of Palm what other option would you choose? There is none. Windows Mobile is hot, Treo is hot, most of your profits come from Treo sales, and your current OS is already obsolete with no replacement expected for a couple years. Palm is wise to "take the money and run". Sure, once other Windows Mobile licensees start producing better hardware than the Treo, Palm is totally fcuked, but Palm should be able to milk at least another year out of profits out of the current Treo design. Then they can gradually fade away, Netscape-style, only to cash in by suing Microsoft in 5 years. Ka-Ching!
The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
I don't know if others feel the same: I have a Treo and a Axim. I switched over when nothing was coming from PALM. The Axim was fun to have. BUT it was much better for everything EXCEPT the PIMS... Can't trust a WM with all those important data at all! For someone who really do need the PDA for important stuff, they wouldn't trust a WM device - don't think they can correct those issues with WM5 either... So for now, I would rather stick with my trusted Treo600. PS: Having said that if WM can be better in handling PIMS, my 5 year son is having the Treo... RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 3:50:37 AM #
For Palm Source, it's probably neglible. My guess is that few WM users buy the Treo because they've just got to have the hardware. If anything, it might even point out the failings of the WM OS versus something like Cobalt (assuming it delivers). And if it doesn't, who cares. Is that really the best excuse you can offer? The sole remaining major manufacturer of Palm OS handhelds beginning to use Windows for their flagship line is proof that Windows is inferior? RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
[i]I don't know if others feel the same: I have a Treo and a Axim. I switched over when nothing was coming from PALM. The Axim was fun to have. BUT it was much better for everything EXCEPT the PIMS... Can't trust a WM with all those important data at all! For someone who really do need the PDA for important stuff, they wouldn't trust a WM device - don't think they can correct those issues with WM5 either... So for now, I would rather stick with my trusted Treo600.[/i] I have to disagree with you regarding WM and important information. I've been using my Axim full time for almost a year now and I've never lost any kind of information, or missed any alarms. The whole WM "problem" has been overexaggerated by many. With the addition of 3rd party apps such as Pocket Breeze, the WM platform is just as useable as Palm. RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
At this point, I see Palm wanting to (and should be) double dipping for as long as it can. They are in this to make a profit, not to keep us PalmOS lovers happybeans. Cobalt is the next logial step, as Garnet is more than met its deathbead (pull the plug on it since it only has one feeding tube going in - Palm that is). Would be nice if it is nice and stable. From what I can piece together, there may be a wifi treo, that hands off calls from wifi to CDMA/GSM, and that handoff via Cobalt is where they are having an issue. Remember, this week PocketPC THoughts ran an article about WM5 doing seemless handoffs with wifi and cellular networks. Now the question that only Ryan can answer: RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 11:05:59 AM #
At this point, I see Palm wanting to (and should be) double dipping for as long as it can. They are in this to make a profit, not to keep us PalmOS lovers happybeans. Cobalt is the next logial step, as Garnet is more than met its deathbead (pull the plug on it since it only has one feeding tube going in - Palm that is). Would be nice if it is nice and stable. From what I can piece together, there may be a wifi treo, that hands off calls from wifi to CDMA/GSM, and that handoff via Cobalt is where they are having an issue. Remember, this week PocketPC THoughts ran an article about WM5 doing seemless handoffs with wifi and cellular networks. "Double dipping"? More like SLOPPY SECONDS! This is gonna get all messy and gooey real quick. Antoine, Cobalt is so fcuked up that it would be dangerous to use it in a shipping product. Even FrankenPalmOS with IVs and feeding tubes all over the place is a safer choice. At least you know what you're getting with"Good Ole Frankie"!
The Palm Economy = Communism™ Stunning news: The videos are FAKE!The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 11:05:59 AM #
After closer inspection, it's obvious that this is a fake. First of all, the square buttons on the keyboard are a dead giveaway. The most obvious Photoshop artifact I've even seen. LiveFaith would be embarassed! Secondly, if you slow the video down to 1 frame per second, you'll see that it's actually a video playing on a PalmOS Treo. How devious of them! Thirdly, the video is cut to make it seem like the splash screen is actually loaded on power on. In reality the clown that put this video together spliced a second videotaken with the Treo already on and running a full screen video showing A WinMob screen.. Notice how no true screen interactions are shown. What a dastardly villain! Whew! That was a close one. I feel better now: Notice to the sicko that leaked this video: I'm onto you, dumbass. Your face is clearly visible in the screen reflection. It took all of TWOMINUTES for a friend of mine in the FBI to process the image and get a clear picture who you are. You are TOTALLY fcuked. I love it. Photo of the "Deepthroat" to be posted later... ------------------------ Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted. ------------------------ The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
Surur, do you have a compulsion to get yourself banned? I guess we'll see you back as sr5, right? I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra." RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
Ive been controlling myself as best I could, but I could just not resist this time. Sorry Ryan. Wont do it again (unless something more ground shaking than this happens :( ) Surur Terminal Illness
Here you go then :) This picture describes the cycle of bereavement after the family of POS was informed that it was terminally ill. POS has been sick for a long time, and while the work has become more and more demanding, it has just not been able to keep up. Its performance became poorer, it required longer and longer to recuperate from heavy work, sometimes up to two minutes, sometimes it even collapsed and went into a coma. His family did not know it was really going to die however, even though in the back of their minds they know things were getting serious. The latest news however really made it clear that POS wont be turning the corner, but will continue to get worse and worse, until is slips away into the night. PS: From the above, a picture is clearly worth a 1000 words ;) Surur RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 3:54:39 PM #
What was the photo? Please post the link ------------------------ Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted. ------------------------ The Palm Economy = Communism™ Ignore last post. [Damn NetFront won't refresh pages!]The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 3:56:47 PM #
Posting from my UX50 is a PITA (pain in the a**) - NetFront has to be forced to refresh before any new posts are seen. It's pathetic that this is the best browser we have. It won't even support carriage returns on the UX50 (but the VZ90 version of Netfront is a bit better). I hope Ryan allows Surur to put that cartoon back. It pretty much sums up what everyone has been dreading here for the past three years. I reached the Acceptance Stage when Sony pulled out, but thinking about what COULD HAVE BEEN (OLED-screened UX, smaller VZ90, PalmOS T630, LiveFaith's Treo designs, etc.) is like pouring salt in the wound and drags me back to the Anger Stage. The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
Deep breaths there VR. The new Samsung with Cobalt is gonna cure what ails ya. :-o http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/samsungi750.JPG
RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 8:12:11 PM #
There's a "special" room in Hell reserved just for people like you, Pat! ;-O The Palm Economy = Communism™ The best photos yet of the Windows Mobile Treo:The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/8/2005 10:58:09 PM #
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000050053387/ Build it and they will cum™. - Multitasking
Nagging questions: - How buggy is NVFS support in WM5? TVoR The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
WM 5 has been rolled out to 1900 internal beta testers, and the NVFS used is the same one being used in MS smartphones since 2002. The only hiccup is that writes to storage are slower than normal ram, so some legacy software will run slower, and will need optimizing. However the main developers have actually been given WM5 devices more than 6 months ago, so major software like PocketInformant is already optimized for the platform. Surur RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
Wannitnow, can you cite a few examples of how you find the CE PIM apps to be inferior to Palm? I actually found the reverse to be true (and that was certainly a surprise to me - but this was several years ago, before the enhanced PIM apps that Palm offers on their specific models). For example, I was pleasantly surprised to find - on my iPAQ Pocket PC - that I could have multiple addresses for each person in my address book (err - I mean Contacts For the Calendar, I find the Palm hands down to be easier to add a new appt - *provided the appt begins on the hour*. Fewer taps required on the Palm. IF it begins on the half hour then it gets more difficult to compare (and of course I have since found the option on both to show the half hour marks). :-) I still miss the Palm's incredibly elegant way to set the start and end times with the incredibly easy to use pop up list of 0-9 for each number in the time - the Pocket PC is throoughly annoying in this respect as you instead have a pop up list of specific times (hour and half hour only). Any odd times and you have to manually edit them, which although not the chore I'm making it out to be, nevertheless is easier on the Palm. I do, however, find meetings that require more than just the basic info and on-the-hour start times to require roughly equal numbers of taps - in fact, meeting forms requiring lots of info actually require less taps the more info required on the PPC (if that makes sense). So for overall points, I prefer Palm's Calendar method. For Tasks, I find both platforms lacking, but more or less equal. For email, the PPC wins - in fact, I find it unbelievable that email was not even included on some low end Palms (especially the old m series targeted at students, because Palm found students didn't use email???). But to keep the comparison to recent models, I do prefer the standard Inbox to VersaMail. I found VersaMail to be a major pain to setup for what should be very easy items (such as simply synching to Outlook's Inbox) though the most recent update seems to have corrected some of these issues. Anyway, the PPC's ability to handle attachments natively and to be able to attach files easily from the PPC (which I guess may be more of a PPC File System plus than the Inbox app itself), and the ability to handle incoming attachments just like on the desktop is a real plus (again, I realize what I'm listing here has more to do with the capabilities of the OS rather then limitations of VersaMail or Inbox, but either way you look at it, I find the PPC email solution easier and more powerful. And I can NEVER stress enough how nice it is to be able to read and respond to emails while I'm downloading/ActiveSynching in the background!!! The main thing I was looking forward to in Cobalt was true Multitasking as it really is the sort of thing that's just got to be there for any device targeted at Professionals (or impatient end users). It's geat to be able to open an attachment or follow a web link, read that and send your response all in the same session without having to wait on anything. Much more efficient. And this is something I didn't even realize how nice it was to have *until* I tried the dark side...but once you get used to having it, there's no going back. Call me Anakin I guess. :-) Wow, it's gotten so nasty around that I feel like I have to spend a half hour qualifying my position on platforms and other areas in an attempt to get true life experience-based posts on *recent* models (not based on Palm V's and Cassiopeia e10's) rather than get attacked. In the "good old days", of course, such responses would have simply been the standard and understood. How did we all turn into such nasty, bitter people constantly at each other's throats? Just adding fuel to the fire.
"HTC 'to build' Palm's Windows-based Treo" The Register, Published Thursday 11th August 2005 10:20 GMT (http://tinyurl.com/dk9tb)
I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Welcome to the Hotel Redmond
And in the master’s chambers, They gathered for the feast They stab it with their steely knives, But they just can’t kill the beast Relax. It will all be over soon.
RE: Welcome to the Hotel Redmond
Gak, your tagline jars me every time. Nothing mythical about it. I had it in my hands. No Myth, merely unreleased. Along with Symbol's unreleased color model running Handera's tweaked OS4. At least that one was shown in *front* of the booth at the very same Palmsource DevCon... RE: Welcome to the Hotel Redmond
Ah yes, the "mythical" color HandEra.
There was a time when we just wanted a HandEra 330 with a color screen. We all thought it was the "holy grail" of handheld computing. (Want proof? Just look at how many views this thread has gotten: http://palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24449) But those prototypes are now "a long time ago, in a place far, far away." Quite honestly, I'd probably be a lot less cynical about the Palm platform if that is exactly what I had gotten my hands on. I'd probably still be using it with a high level of satisfaction. But since it never got into the hands of us mere mortals, it became a myth. And you know how it is with myth. It continues to change and grow, until eventually no one is sure what it is anymore. So it becomes a fantasy machine, different for everyone who imagines it. For me it is a unit with the features of the HandEra 330, but upgraded to a high powered CPU with at least 128mb RAM, WiFi & BT, minimum half-VGA screen. And it still has the PalmOS. There were so many great/innovative features on the 330, you just "knew" they could produce such a unit in color. (Honestly, the Zodiac2 came the closest to being that machine for me, but the writing was already on the wall, and I wasn't going to go through the pain once again.) And if this rumor is true, it's all a moot point. It's likely we'll all be running WinMob anyway. Oh well, it's water under the bridge now. But until someone finally builds it,...
Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
Judging from the pictures, I'm assuming that the WMTreo670 is likely going to be released first for Verizon Wireless, or probably exclusive to Verizon Wireless, but it may seem that it could be a re-brand for the Verizon Wireless Windows Mobile market, likely the Treo 670 (which I'm thinking is going to be rebranded) is gonna cost between $750-$1000 without a contract, remember guys the Microsoft Tax takes full effect here. Powered by Palm OS since March 2002 RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusivelegodude522 @ 8/5/2005 11:41:26 PM #
Most of Palm usually goes to Sprint first. But that was what I was told. Verizon already enslaved most of us like Microsoft so why not turn to them first? Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present. RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusiveAdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 3:49:30 AM #
What "Microsoft tax"? A WM license costs as much as Palm. RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
"Microsoft Tax"--Paying for the features mainly consumer-grade handheld users don't want (i.e. Pocket Excel, excessive features included with Microsoft Windows Mobile that may not be needed, but in a fact Windows Mobile was supposed to be more Enterprise-Grade). I think it may be possible that Verizon Wireless is testing out a Windows Mobile-powered Treo right now as we speak. If possible, I'm guessing that this Windows Mobile Treo's likely going to be sold exclusively through business channels. Maybe Nextel might be able to grab it if the Windows Mobile Treo qualifies for an iDEN License. I think Verizon's allegiance with Microsoft might have caused this IMO. RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusiveFoo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 2:09:39 PM #
>> ""Microsoft Tax"--Paying for the features mainly consumer-grade handheld users don't want (i.e. Pocket Excel, excessive features included with Microsoft Windows Mobile that may not be needed, but in a fact Windows Mobile was supposed to be more Enterprise-Grade)." What in God's name are you talking about? Neither licensees nor consumers pay extra for features like Pocket Excel. It's included with the OS. What's that you say, consumers don't need Pocket Excel or Office apps? Well...better tell that to Palm because they are bundling Documents to Go with nearly every product they sell. Guess Palm buyers are being "taxed" as well. Those cads!
RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
The only reason why licensing Palm is as expensive as Microsoft Windows Mobile is because Palm actually has a contract with DataViz--it's been ensuing since the Tungsten C era--which each Tungsten came with Documents To Go pre-installed on Flash ROM. I'm not really talking about the Zires, though (although Zire 72 is Documents To Go Ready), but on a Tungsten and LifeDrive level. I also think that Microsoft assumed that people wanted to use Internet Explorer, Word, and Excel on the go, but it's just me, thinking about the old days--Things have changed and people's handheld expectations change overtime, so I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that people everywhere want Office Productivity, but I think that in what I call a "last laugh basis", Microsoft ends up listening to customers, knowing what people want in their handhelds, and bundling what is to be more critical, I don't think that the Microsoft Tax matters anymore since Microsoft generally has all of their licensees listen to what the customers want, especially business professionals. Because Microsoft has been bundling Word and Excel with the Windows Mobile suite, I think it only makes sense that Palm follow suit by bundling Documents To Go mainly with their Tungsten and LifeDrive handhelds. Generally, DataViz allows Palm to specify which handhelds will have Documents To Go included with a handheld, but Microsoft requires all of their licensees to include Word and Excel nonetheless, therefore Palm can keep entry-level handhelds simple to use. RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusiveFoo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 3:49:14 PM #
>> "The only reason why licensing Palm is as expensive as Microsoft Windows Mobile is because Palm actually has a contract with DataViz--it's been ensuing since the Tungsten C era--which each Tungsten came with Documents To Go pre-installed on Flash ROM. I'm not really talking about the Zires, though (although Zire 72 is Documents To Go Ready), but on a Tungsten and LifeDrive level." What? PalmSource doesn't bundle Docs to Go with its OS. That's something Palm (the handheld maker) bundles with its products. Docs to go has NOTHING to do with the license costs of palmOS. It just drives up the overall software costs for Palm. If anything WM would actually lower costs for Palm in that specific area. No more bundling requirements. RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
vesther wrote ... < I know it's a sad joke, but this IS STILL the Tungsten C era. :-( At least until they announce the C2 next week. RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusiveAdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 10:34:40 PM #
I doubt that it would be a Verizon exclusive. If you listen to the regular readers of HowardForums, they'll tell you that the guy who provided the photos regularly comes through with information about upcoming Verizon phones. This would imply that he has access to Verizon phones before they're released. I would bet a lot that this is a Verizon-branded testing unit. Somewhere, there's probably Sprint and Cingular branded test units on tables at their respective companies getting the runaround from the techs, but we happened to get to see this one. RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusiveFoo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 11:04:38 PM #
>> "This would imply that he has access to Verizon phones before they're released. I would bet a lot that this is a Verizon-branded testing unit. Somewhere, there's probably Sprint and Cingular branded" Precisely. Whether this is an exclusive arrangement with Verizon or not (what a coup that would be for Verizon), you can bet there are "other" test models elsewhere circulating among carrier testing labs. In any case, screw the carriers. I'll buy the unlocked GSM model just as I did with the 650. Getting screwed over by Palm is one thing. Getting screwed by carriers holds even less charm. Treo 670 on spotted on Sprint catalogue Q4 2005?
Treo 670 Sighting. http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=93784&page=1&pp=20
Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
Is offering both OSs feasible for Palm given the high development and support costs? I don't think so. RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 11:55:00 PM #
If dual OS support is designed in from the beginning, it actually doesn't cost any extra to support these. (Remember this phone that can actually run 3 or 4 OSes: http://www.oswintech.com/) Since Palm will have carriers do support + they simply are ordering these puppies from HTC (no design effort for Palm!) + they have a guaranteed market, it's a win-win-win situation for Palm. Great way to score some huge profits short term. The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 12:19:18 AM #
Ironically, there are probably less costs involved with developing a WM Treo model than the PalmOS version. Look what lengths Palm had to go in order to get FrankeGarnet tailor suited for Treo...creating OS customizations like a non-volatile file system. WM5 is a shake'n'bake solution, and HTC has the hardware aspects covered. The rest is up to the carriers. And since WM is now outselling palmOS, it's even more ironic that Palm would be, theoretically, opening Treo to an even larger market. I don't see how this move can be anything but a win - win solution for Palm. As for the knee-jerk reactionaries within the Palm community threatening to burn their PDAs (why not themselves as well?) if Palm adopts WM, who gives a rat's lower torso. Heck, I'll provide the lighter fluid and matches. Seriously, do any of these clowns actually believe their juvenile rantings are going to effect Palm's decision? As if Ed Colligan is hinging his future strategies on responses from this community? RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?legodude522 @ 8/6/2005 12:22:36 AM #
Dual booting is unreasonable. Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present. RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 12:37:18 AM #
By the way, did anyone listen to what the guy in the last engadget video was saying? I nearly busted a gut laughing! :-P "Let's see here now... Press the power button... Oh, what the hell is that? *Verizon Wireless* Oh, that's Windows, isn't it? Mmm, hmm." Comedy.
RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?gfunkmagic @ 8/6/2005 1:05:56 AM #
>>>>>>>Look what lengths Palm had to go in order to get FrankeGarnet tailor suited for Treo...creating OS customizations like a non-volatile file system.
-------------------- RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
"Dual booting is unreasonable." Bah, other licensees toyed with it years back. RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 3:51:41 AM #
Actually, as far as I know they did have to hack NVFS themselves. Yes, Cobalt has native non-volatile storage support, but they still had to build a system for Garnet since they couldn't legitimately rip the one out of Cobalt. One having it first doesn't mean it's derivative. Windows Mobile for Smartphones had NV storage before Cobalt, and the Zaurus had it before WMS. RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 8:47:44 AM #
Gfunk, as far as I know Palm did NVFS themselves. Or so I was told during a briefing by Palm back when they first introduced the T5. Cobalt may have it as well, but Palm did their own work. If you're right however, it does make things interesting. Garnet is supposedly "good enough" and yet Palm takes bits and pieces of Cobalt out in piecemeal fashion and incorporates it back into Garnet? That just further proves that something is dreadfully wrong with Cobalt that Palm could only utilize some of its features but not the OS itself.
RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 12:02:29 AM #
if my aging memory serves me correctly, the NVFS support in Garnet is not a backport from Cobalt, but rather a custom hack for Garnet. RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 12:47:14 AM #
the NVFS support in Garnet is not a backport from Cobalt, but rather a custom hack for Garnet. Correct. Too bad Palm's code monkeys are so incompetent. They're almost as bad as the WinMob Monkees. The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 1:53:38 AM #
are you sure it was palm's code monkeys who did the nvfs hack? my aging memory suggests otherwise. RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 2:14:36 AM #
My aging memory says my PalmSource contact said Palm's incompetent code monkees did the NVFS hack of PalmOS 5. And also issued the (nasty) fix. ------------------------ Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted. ------------------------ The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 2:29:08 PM #
Ah. So you are certain. I suspect you need better contacts at PalmSource, then. Yes, PalmSource AND Palm butchered NVFSThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 3:50:05 PM #
Ah. So you are certain. I suspect you need better contacts at PalmSource, then. I never claimed to be certain, but I remember someone I spoke to at PalmSource saying they had worked on the NVFS chop job. I also remember being "corrected" by someone (Hackborn?) when I had the temerity to blame PalmSource for the buggy implementation. But if this quote from Gavin's PUG forum is accurate, much (but not all) of the blame for the NVFS crap can be placed on the ever-incompetent PalmSource. (Gavin also spilled the beans about LG being the new licensee in this thread from MAY, by the way!) At DevCon and I believe also on one of his blogs, Palm's Ben Combee admitted Palm's initial implementation of NVFS was horrible: http://www.auspug.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=31756 "I returned from San Jose on Saturday from the 2005 PalmSource Mobile Summit and DevCon which ran from Tuesday through to Thursday. Probably the most 'entertaining' session was from palmOne engineer Ben Combee talking about NVFS and the issues around its early implementation (ie T5). Ben clarified a number of the reasons why they chose to do things as they did - an apologised for screwing it up. Ben also outlined a new version of NVFS support that Palmsource are working on which will improve things in a large number of areas. The GSM and Sprint 650's along with the TE2 and LifeDrive's all contain later versions of NVFS that fix certain bugs. The LD is newer so obviously has the latest software. Patches for other various devices are in the works from what I hear. So if you're worried about the LD having the same probs as the T5 don't worry - it's been a long time in engineering terms between the T5 and the LD - and the lessons learnt have been put to good affect. FWIW Palmsource did most of the work on NVFS (that included Ben when he was a Palmsource employee)." http://palmos.combee.net/blog/TheNVFSFilesHowSyncsCanFa.html
The Palm Economy = Communism™ Martin Fouts - OUTED on PIC (Film at 11)The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 10:41:50 PM #
What's the matter, penguin? Cat got your tongue? p0wn3D The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 11:24:07 PM #
Why would I want to comment? In one post you blame Palm for bad code, in another you blame PalmSource. It's much more fun watching you gyrate than commenting on those gyrations. Especially when the issue surrounding NVFS on the 650 isn't as simple as code quality. TVoR still is Mr. Nice Guy.The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 11:50:42 PM #
Why would I want to comment? In one post you blame Palm for bad code, in another you blame PalmSource. It's much more fun watching you gyrate than commenting on those gyrations. Especially when the issue surrounding NVFS on the 650 isn't as simple as code quality. Fouts, I hope Hackborn personally biotchslaps you for extreme stupidity. I'll email her a copy of this thread tonight. You might want to call in sick tomorrow, lest Mistress beats you silly. As we've seen over the years, BOTH Palm and PalmSource can't code their way out of a wet paper pag. There are probably no more than a dozen codemonkeys at PalmSource that actually earn their salaries. The rest of you are parasites should have been let go a LONG time ago. So is "Linux God" Fouts going to run PalmSource's PalmLinux program this year? You and Combee must make quite a couple. Dumba$$. Come on Fouts. Surely you can do better than that. Even Surur made you look like a fool without even trying. Please keep it coming. I love the erudite, bemused look. Do it again. The peanut gallery is on the floor laughing... The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?PenguinPowered @ 8/8/2005 1:50:04 AM #
That was funny. Rant some more. I'd forgotten how funny whiner on the web can be. RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
Voice, you mean NetSCALPING. As in, all of those that haven't fled the Alamo (ie the POS camp) by this point will be slowly starved out in a long siege. Ultimately scalped, of course, by the WinMob hatchet that Palm Inc. just buried in the already (PalmSource-bludgeoned) skull that is the Palm OS. Desperate times... desperate measuresThe_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/11/2005 11:04:53 PM #
Isn't it pathetic how PalmSource has now been reduced to getting their employees to post BS suggesting FACTS aren't true? These people are sounding more and more like the Iraqi Foreign Minister every day! Now that people actually can SEE the WinMob Treo, the PalmSource Damage Control Astroturf Squad says "but nothing has "officially" been announced"... I said last year the Wimdows Treos were coming and guess what? I was right again. I'm batting around 950 these days and my on base percentage is equally stellar. [TVoR pats themself on the back...] The Palm Economy = Communism™ RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
Make sure there's not a dagger in your back (or between your ribs) with the new orange Palm logo on it while you're patting yerself back there...it's their goodbye gift to us Palm OS faithful!
RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/11/2005 11:54:52 PM #
Notice how someone keeps deleting every post revealing the true identy of that PalmSource Astroturfer? HILARIOUS!
PenguinPowered = Marty Fouts = a PalmSource Linux engineer His post's make a lot more sense if you know what he does for a living, don't you think! ;-O
;-O The Palm Economy = Communism™
Button Layout?
I can't see the videos. Does the\is alleged Treo's button layout tell us anything? I seem to remember a comment about the prior photos of the alleged "WinMob Treo" that said the button layout indicated it was a hoax. RE: Button Layout?gfunkmagic @ 8/6/2005 1:39:16 AM #
I think you're referring to the photoshop of earlier this week. The original leak about a WM Treo unearthed a couple months ago. The photoshop of earlier this week was a photoshop of that first leak and it was proven be comparison of the thumbboard layout to prove it. However, these new vids are real imo and supposed Treo 670 corrolates with the initial WM Treo leak... -------------------- Gaurav RE: Button Layout?
"I can't see the videos." They play fine in TCMP on one's palm (other than the Qualcomm audio codec). RE: Button Layout?
Hot damm, that's what looks to be the Athena connector on the bottom of this thing (see video 1). Well, at least we'll be able to keep our accessories when we all migrate from POS to WinMob!
I refuse to believe
In none of the shots does he actually touch the screen. Heck, the Palm keyguard is on in the 3rd shot!
The Sound of Silence.AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 3:55:59 AM #
This news has been out since early today, and we only have a couple of dozen comments so far. Normally, on anything even close to this level of significance, we'd see at least 80 by this point. But it seems that a lot of Palm loyalists are hiding in the bushes, unwilling to comment on it. It's the same over at 1SRC: 20 some replies to the information, most of which have nothing to do with the original topic. Come on out, kids--it's not going to go away if you ignore it. The most inventive arguments coming out of 1SRC are that "just because the 670 CAN run Windows, doesn't mean it WILL run Windows," and "It's all just a video being played on an--um--on a prototype Treo 650. It's all a hoax!" I guess some people can't handle the idea of Palm, the-sainted-company-that-can-do-no-wrong, cavorting with the devil called Windows. We'll probably have to wait and see what wacky excuse Jeff Kirvin comes up with for why this is fake/irrelevant/good for PalmOS/a guaranteed failure before the loyalists feel confident enough to poke their heads out en masse. RE: The Sound of Silence.
Bah to Kirvin's comments. I want someone to corner Hawkins and Dubinsky and ask them what THEY think about Palm throwing in the towel on the eve of the 10th anniversary of Palm shipping the original Pilot line? I mean, really, things should never have been allowed to plunge to these depths. This all stated in the Yankowski era and has been on a tailspin (Handspring acquisition aside) since then. I STILL maintain that trying to fund new product development across two or three OS's and simultaneously support FrankenGarnet, Cobalt and WinMob will be taxing beyond belief to Palm's resources and may stretch them to the breaking point. How are they going to proceed with their attention to quality and an accelerated release schedule that's been hinted at in recent interviews and articles with this kind of drain on the company coffers? RE: The Sound of Silence.The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 10:11:22 AM #
When you see the bomb finally drop, it's not surprising to see the Palm Faithful |
Engadget.com has 
palm is in a catch 22. if they stick with just FrankenGarnet, they stay on a soon to be deserted island while the rest of the free world moves forward on the Windows Mobile Cruise Ship. They will be out there all alone on the island. Not to mention FrankenGarnet's instability/bugginess and limited frozen feature set.
if palm uses Windows Mobile, then they become just another low-margin commodity maker of WM smartphones. can they really compete in that market given the size, resources, and economies of scale of the competition? in my opinion - if palm chooses WM, they will lose their raison d'être. palmos was what made palm products unique - what set them apart.
i hear all this talk of 4% market share is good enough for apple - it will be good enough for palm. The market for PCs is a different animal than smartphones - so this is apples vs. oranges. 4% of the PC market or automobile market might be OK, but 4% of a niche market is not. especially if that's the only/few products that palm sells! stop using this analogy, apologists.
right now, palm has virtually 100% of the palmos smartphone market. how will palm function when they get X% of the WM market?