MobileInfocenter

Comments on: Rumor: Video of a Treo 670 Running Windows Mobile

Rumor: Palm Treo 670 Running Windows MobileEngadget.com has posted three videos of a supposed Palm Treo 670 running the Windows Mobile 2005 operating system. The smartphone resembles two earlier rumored photos and reports of the unit that claimed it ran Windows Mobile.
Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (235 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Start a new Comment Down

Catch 22

Gekko @ 8/5/2005 10:50:48 PM # Q
my repost but now even more relevant -

palm is in a catch 22. if they stick with just FrankenGarnet, they stay on a soon to be deserted island while the rest of the free world moves forward on the Windows Mobile Cruise Ship. They will be out there all alone on the island. Not to mention FrankenGarnet's instability/bugginess and limited frozen feature set.

if palm uses Windows Mobile, then they become just another low-margin commodity maker of WM smartphones. can they really compete in that market given the size, resources, and economies of scale of the competition? in my opinion - if palm chooses WM, they will lose their raison d'être. palmos was what made palm products unique - what set them apart.

i hear all this talk of 4% market share is good enough for apple - it will be good enough for palm. The market for PCs is a different animal than smartphones - so this is apples vs. oranges. 4% of the PC market or automobile market might be OK, but 4% of a niche market is not. especially if that's the only/few products that palm sells! stop using this analogy, apologists.

right now, palm has virtually 100% of the palmos smartphone market. how will palm function when they get X% of the WM market?



RE: Catch 22
gfunkmagic @ 8/6/2005 1:21:50 AM # Q
Eh... believe or not, but the first next gen treo to arrive will probably be Cobalt imo...

I support http://Tapland.com/

--------------------
GNM

RE: Catch 22
hkklife @ 8/6/2005 9:34:56 AM # Q
I agree with Gfunk. I think Palm/P1's secretly been tweaking/funding Cobalt work so it's in a reasonably finished and usable state. They'll release it in a small and select number of devices (Two Treos, a LifeDrive or two and maybe a few Tungstens) over the next 18-24 months until PoL is finished.

So in '06 you'll have :

High-end devices: Cobalt
Mid and low end devices:Garnet

in '07:

High-end: PoL
Midrange: Cobalt (carryover models mostly)
Low-end: Garnet (think a Zire 33 type $100 job)



RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/6/2005 11:04:38 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
So in '06 you'll have :

High-end devices: Cobalt
Mid and low end devices:Garnet

in '07:

High-end: PoL
Midrange: Cobalt (carryover models mostly)
Low-end: Garnet (think a Zire 33 type $100 job)

You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees.

PoL isn't necessarily going to be more "high end" than the Cobalt phones by the way, although it can definitely push that envelope. What's interesting to PalmSource about Linux is the way they can push a more powerful Palm OS down into some lower cost handsets that hit the market sweet spot as well as power up the high end for the early adopters.

The mistake with Cobalt was not anything about the OS per se, but failing to appreciate all the extra work that PalmSource and the licensees would have to do to create the drivers and system support software to interface a proprietary kernel with all the different chipsets and hardware the vendors wanted to use. Symbian and MS have the massive resources and engineering staff to go bottom-to-top, but PalmSource does not, which left a lot of heavy lifting to the licensees.

I'm not an "apologist" for PalmSource as TVoR likes to represent me. I just think its preferable to point to the actual facts about why Cobalt has been so slow to market than to invent or twist my own imagined ones. PalmSource squandered a lead and is in a tough spot now, no question. They needed to focus their energies sooner on their strengths: building powerful mobile software frameworks and user experience, not developing proprietary kernels and drivers. Having said that, Linux was the right decision and it's also attractive to the device vendors because of the open aspect and the freedom it will give them to create devices the way they want them (instead of the way Microsoft or Symbian wants them). Since PoL is basically Cobalt with a Linux kernel the work being done on it *may* even be breathing a bit of life into some Cobalt devices before the PoL devices hit the market: the migration path looks smooth, even if the driver issue is still a downer. We'll see.

At any rate, Linux (with or without Palm OS) is about to positively explode on mobile devices and will give MS and Symbian a big run for their money. Having the whole Palm OS application stack available on Linux would add even more momentum to that (apps are a major area where mobile Linux still falls short). If it weren't for this and the decisions PalmSource made in December we might very well have seen the end of Palm OS. As it stands, I think there's cause for hope.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch 22
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 2:16:09 PM # Q
>> "You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees."

What licensees? Palm is the last consumer focussed license (and one of the last PERIOD) PalmSource licensee offering PalmOS devices. If Cobalt does appear from "other" licensees, it will have no impact on us because it won't be available here in the US or Europe. Perhaps one of the Asian vendors will pick it up, but there is no one left.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Cutting through the B.S.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 6:58:08 PM # Q
You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees.

What "other licensees", Beersy? Remember - a licensee loading a copy of Cobalt onto 20 beta test PDAs or smartphones doesn't count as "a few Cobalt devices coming".


I'm not an "apologist" for PalmSource as TVoR likes to represent me. I just think its preferable to point to the actual facts about why Cobalt has been so slow to market...

Beersy, you're one of the most blatant, boot-licking, brown-nosing apologists I've seen recently. Your recent performance in the (poor) Michael Mace interview thread at that other Palm site lead many to wonder if you were actually paid by Palm to Astroturf + "ride shotgun" for them. Fortunately Dianne Hackborn stepped in and caught herself up in her web of SPIN and excuses (again), showing readers what a pile of steaming dung Cobalt is (was?). It's amusing to see how Apologists and PalmSource employees both run and hide when the tough questions are asked. Suggestion: if you know you can't defend your position, either S T F U or else do like Jeff Kirvin does and hide out on a milquetoast fanboy site where they either delete or denigrate every post that speaks the (ugly) truth about the platform.

Without more honesty, Palm and PalmOS are DEAD.

By the way do you do coding for PPC/WinMob? Has your percent or volume of PalmOS business declined in the past year? Are you worried?


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
Rome @ 8/6/2005 7:42:32 PM # Q
Good post, David. Enjoyed the read.

RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/6/2005 8:18:35 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
By the way do you do coding for PPC/WinMob?

Yep. Used to be about half my consulting business.

Has your percent or volume of PalmOS business declined in the past year? Are you worried?

Nope, Palm OS has increased from two years ago relative to WM. There's also good demand for cross-platform WM and Palm. Most of my customers who have a preference prefer Palm OS but many think they need to keep their bases covered. Frankly, I've been surprised I *haven't* seen the Palm OS business decline relative to WM. I fully expected it, which is why I got into .NET and Java.

What I can tell you are the main reasons why my customers go for Palm over WM (other developers' mileage may vary):

1. Battery life is the big one. A lot of them need devices that will run hard all day or for multiple days on a charge. These guys aren't buying Tungstens, they're buying Symbols, Aceecas, and even monochrome Zires. I was even getting projects for customers using Handspring Visors as recently as a year ago. The Zen of Palm is alive and well in the enterprise.

2. A couple of clients went with Palm OS because they were the first to have integrated GPS (Garmin iQue 3600). Of course that advantage has been leveled recently.

3. Clients who want sales force applications prefer devices that are slick looking and easy to use. The Clies were popular and after those went away the Tungsten T3 has been more popular than the HPs and Dells. Interestingly, wireless stuff hasn't taken off as much for me as you might think on either Palm or WM. I've only had one wireless project for WM phones and not that many for Treos either. I expect that to change, but for now these high-end smartphones are too pricey and the need for over-the-air data sync is not business-critical for the most important apps.

4. A lot of folks have had bad experiences with Win CE that they haven't gotten over. Biggest complaints are lost data during synchronization, failure of ActiveSync to perform working backups/restores, and total power drain when the device is just sitting around for a few hours. The problems with frequent crashes are less common with WM than they used to be (and Palm OS crashes are more frequent) but crashes are less of a problem than data loss and a lot of these data loss problems still persist. Or the perception persists, which is the same thing in business.

As I'm sure you know, you guys who hang out here on PIC are not all that representative of the wider world of PDA and smart phone customers. Of course, I'm just one data point and my clients aren't necessarily typical either. But they have their perspective and it keeps me plenty busy.

So if I sometimes seem apologetic about Palm OS it's mainly because I can take my apologies to the bank. I also don't mind saying that I think I understand some of the technical and market aspects of the Cobalt debacle a bit better than you, TVoR, but that's not going to keep you from making the loudest noise on a forum like this one. Make your little posts if it feels good to you. If I have time to read them after the bank I may respond from time to time. ;-)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/6/2005 9:27:35 PM # Q
FooFighter wrote:
What licensees? Palm is the last consumer focussed license (and one of the last PERIOD) PalmSource licensee offering PalmOS devices. If Cobalt does appear from "other" licensees, it will have no impact on us because it won't be available here in the US or Europe. Perhaps one of the Asian vendors will pick it up, but there is no one left.

Palm is far and away the largest consumer focused license today, but there are plenty of other consumer licensees. Most of them sell in the larger (and cheaper) Asian market but that will change as the US catches up in its smartphone adoption, which is happening quickly now. LG is the big one to watch since they're the new one on board, of course, but GSPDA has announced it will release a Cobalt phone in Q4, as has Oswin. There are a handful of other licensees that keep renewing and I have to think that some of them have plans: Kyocera, Samsung, Lenovo. Kyocera did very well with the 7135. FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135.

I know none of these account for a lot of revenue to PalmSource right now, but my statement was that I think we will see a few Cobalt devices from some of them before Palm OS for Linux comes out, not that we see them now. How successful they will be, I really have no idea. Obviously, PalmSource is banking on Linux right now, not Cobalt.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch Beers, Kirvin, Hackborn = Lucky Pierre
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 9:44:47 PM # Q
Of course, I'm just one data point and my clients aren't necessarily typical either.

Interesting hearing your experience, Beersy. Really. I'm surprised your PalmOS business increased vs. 2 years ago (but did it decline vs. last year?), but as you admit, you're an n = 1. In my field, Palm is starting to get its a$$ spanked, partly because of their decision to ignore Wi-Fi, leaving the decrepit Tungsten C alone to battle against a dozen dual wireless PPC models. The other reason for the shift is that Palm no longer has a significant software advantage over WinMob, so individuals and companies are free to choose the best HARDWARE for their money. If Microsoft or a big software company decides to market StyleTap Platform aggressively, Palm's headaches will only worsen. Symbol has had the vertical market almost all to themselves, but I had hoped they would have put in a few more features to take up the slack when those poor, naïve yokels at HandEra were squeezed out of the market by Palm a few years ago.

So if I sometimes seem apologetic about Palm OS it's mainly because I can take my apologies to the bank.

We figured you were defensive for a reason. No one would say the things you've said unless there was money involved. ;-O

I also don't mind saying that I think I understand some of the technical and market aspects of the Cobalt debacle a bit better than you, TVoR

You're entitled to your opinion. (Don't you EVER get tired of being wrong?) Have you used a Cobalt device in REAL LIFE for an extended period of time, Beersy? If you had, you would realize Cobalt is Crap that is not worthy of the risks and demands it places upon hardware manufacturers and developers.

PalmSource to hardware makers: "Can you please install our buggy, slow, underdeveloped beta OS (that lacks any apps that will actually benefit from the OS) on your brand spankin' new PDA that your company is depending on to stave off bankruptcy?"

Hardware makers: "Go to Hell!"

PalmSource: "Awwwwwwwww! How about if we make it look pretty?"

Hardware makers: "Go to Hell!"


- Meanwhile....

PalmSource to developers: "Can you please rewrite your applications to take advantage of our our buggy, slow, underdeveloped beta OS (that lacks any hardware that will actually run you recompiled apps) even though this won't bring even an extra dime into your company?"

Developers: "Go to Hell!"

PalmSource to developers: "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeese? Pretty Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeese? And we're sorry your apps keep breaking because elegant PalmOS has gradually turned into kludgy, hacked-up FrankenPalmOS because we were too lazy to properly fix it and advise you of all of the sloppy things we (and our buddies at pa1mOne) have done to it over the years!"

Developers: "Go to Hell!"

Make your little posts if it feels good to you. If I have time to read them after the bank I may respond from time to time. ;-)

That's big of you, Beersy. I hope you soon decide to switch to coding for PalmOS full time. You deserve what that will bring you. Really.

See you at the Ocktoberfest PalmSource developer conference in Munich this September.

Your pal,
TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/6/2005 9:51:09 PM # Q
PiTech is another Palm licensee to watch. The Asians have considered the US smartphone market to be saturated for the last two years, but that's changing.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch 22
AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 10:25:25 PM # Q
GSPDA and Oswin are the same thing--they're both part of the same parent company. Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS. Kyocera never even produced a single unit running OS 5, let alone Cobalt. And actually, no, the 7135 did very marginally. It was late, and underpowered compared to the Treo 600 which came out around the same time. Windows based smartphones sell a couple of million units a year, the 7135 was in the tens of thousands.

RE: Catch 22
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 10:55:56 PM # Q
FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135.

I find this seriously hard to believe.

Surur

RE: Catch 670, 700, 69...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 10:58:22 PM # Q
GSPDA and Oswin are the same thing--they're both part of the same parent company. Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS. Kyocera never even produced a single unit running OS 5, let alone Cobalt. And actually, no, the 7135 did very marginally. It was late, and underpowered compared to the Treo 600 which came out around the same time. Windows based smartphones sell a couple of million units a year, the 7135 was in the tens of thousands.


Let's not go destroying Beersy's fantasy by introducing a few facts, OK?

Someone else (I think it was a Palm exec? I can't remember) recently claimed that the 7135 sold more than all Windows Smartphones combined, so Beersy's probably parrotting them. No proof, but if someone said it, it must be true - no matter how unlikely it is to have happened. Next thing you know, the "Legend of the Kyocera 7135" is born. "Yep. my sister's next door neighbor's cousin's barber's mother's florist's stepdaughter's girlfriend once saw a Kyocera 7135 kill a man with its bare hands. Then it ate him. Raw. Yep. Don't ever mess with a Kyocera 7135."

He's probably thinking of the 6035 (because I doubt more than 10 people actually bought that Qualcomm/Kyocera brickphone, the PDQ!) While I'm sure the 6035 did OK, do we REALLY believe it sold in the MILLIONS from 2001 - 2003? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Beersy, Beersy, Beersy.

But Samsung will be back soon - mark my words. LiveFaith even posted a spy photo of their upcoming model today:

http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/samsungi750.JPG

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8002#110366


I don't care what you say, Mr. Brown. I heard David Nagel and Michael Mace promised us a dozen new phones for 2005 (just ask Mike Cane if you don't believe me!) so they must all be coming Real Soon Now. 2 or 3 per month at least!

Beersy's pal,
TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/6/2005 11:07:02 PM # Q
So let's do a little poll here - how many of the Whiners will be buying a Treo which 'runs' WinMob 5.0?

RE: Catch 22
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 11:11:52 PM # Q
I may get it for my wife, but 240x240 just does not do it. I want VGA, 3G, WIFI, 128MB ram

I'm getting the HTC Universal.

Surur

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 12:02:14 AM # Q
So if you are not going to get one, why all the gleeful posts (both here and over at ppcthoughts.com)?

RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/7/2005 1:36:00 AM # Q
FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135.

I find this seriously hard to believe.

Frankly it sounded like a stretch to me when I heard it in one of the DevCon presentations. But bear in mind they were probably talking about MS "Smartphone OS" not "Pocket PC Phone Edition".

Anyway I don't have any great inside information about upcoming Cobalt phones, but I did talk with John Cook, PSRC's Director of Product Marketing last week and heard him refer yet again to "several" Cobalt devices that are in the pipeline. So if you don't like the odds that Kyocera or Samsung or whoever are producing these I'll leave it up to you who the licensees might be. PalmSource has already been seriously burned by vendors who made enthusiastic promises and then changed their plans so I don't personally believe he would say this now if he weren't pretty damned sure it's really happening. Groan if you want, but for my part I believe him.

And don't misrepresent me: I have no idea what Cobalt is going to be like on a real device. The Oswin phone at DevCon was very beta. I didn't notice any problem with it in the 5 minutes I messed around with it but I've heard others say it is slow. Garnet ran slow on beta and lab hardware, too, so who knows at this point? All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it. I'll withhold judgement until I see it on a real device along with the rest of you.

What PalmSource does admit, is that PalmSource and the Cobalt licensees have had a bad time with developing drivers in a timely manner--all the software that interfaces the hardware elements to the system. Time to market is really critical for phone development to be successful and they are fairly up-front now that they didn't have the engineering resources of MS or Symbian to develop phone systems top to bottom (including the drivers) in the timeline they hoped, leaving the licensees with a lot to do. Having a killer proprietary kernel with the most incredible framework and application stack on it does not get a phone to market until you have drivers for the chipsets, modems, screens... all the hardware that works with your proprietary system. That's a big part of why PalmSource has turned to Linux: so they don't have to develop and maintain the whole kernel and all the drivers and they can concentrate on the middleware framework and applications that are what make Palm OS what it is. (The demand for an open platform with more flexibility than Symbian or WM is the other big reason.)

You don't have to cast about for explanations for why Cobalt has been slow to market like TVoR tries to do. They've been telling us in various ways ever since the Linux announcement in December. But there's also a difference between "slow to market" and "no to market". I don't think I'm reading into things or being really speculative to say that there will be Cobalt devices coming on the market, whether they come from Palm Inc or some other licensee(s).


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch 22
twrock @ 8/7/2005 3:12:44 AM # Q
Sheesh David, where do you get off giving such calm, adult-like answers to the childish baiting that goes on here? ;-)

Fortunately "you're an n = 1," so we can discount whatever you have to say. But that other guy! Wow, he's like an n = ..., you know an n = ..., well, ... what I mean is ... , his n = 1 is WAY bigger than your n = 1!

Enjoy.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 4:12:18 AM # Q
> I find this seriously hard to believe.

Why, because Ed Hansberry hasn't told you to believe it yet?

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 4:15:57 AM # Q
> my repost but now even more relevant -

Except you tried to do an industry analysis without taking into account what the competition are doing.

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to poor old HP?

The message would be something like this - HP is faced with cost-cutting pressures and declining sales, in the meantime, Palm relentlessly produces popular devices which consistently undercut HP's pricing. If HP tries to focus on high-end devices, will it have sufficient R&D to 'keep up with the Joneses' in terms of the latest feature set? Who knows (but it seems unlikely to me). If they try to produce less feature-rich devices, they run into little old Palm, who will undercut them every time.

Sony faced this same dilemma.

RE: Catch 22
mikecane @ 8/7/2005 10:19:20 AM # Q
>>>In my field,

In your field. Right. That's a laugh.

And stop trotting out my name and others to give your cheap little ****e of a self some sheen of legitimacy, you bastard.

Palm Apologists' Last Stand: Beersy, Kirvin, svrontis
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 2:10:43 PM # Q
>>>FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135.

>I find this seriously hard to believe.

Frankly it sounded like a stretch to me when I heard it in one of the DevCon presentations. But bear in mind they were probably talking about MS "Smartphone OS" not "Pocket PC Phone Edition".

If you knew it was B.S. why even say it? Were you that desperate to try to give creedence to your argument that you're willing to post blatant lies? How sad.

Anyway I don't have any great inside information about upcoming Cobalt phones, but I did talk with John Cook, PSRC's Director of Product Marketing last week and heard him refer yet again to "several" Cobalt devices that are in the pipeline. So if you don't like the odds that Kyocera or Samsung or whoever are producing these I'll leave it up to you who the licensees might be. PalmSource has already been seriously burned by vendors who made enthusiastic promises and then changed their plans so I don't personally believe he would say this now if he weren't pretty damned sure it's really happening. Groan if you want, but for my part I believe him.

I think (at least) one of you is taking liberties with the truth. Unless "in the pipeline" can refer to someone in the company having once made a sketch of a Cobalt phone on a c0cktail napkin. It's partly because of B.S. like this (along with rapidly declining QA) that the Palm companies have lost their reputation in the industry.

And don't misrepresent me: I have no idea what Cobalt is going to be like on a real device. The Oswin phone at DevCon was very beta. I didn't notice any problem with it in the 5 minutes I messed around with it but I've heard others say it is slow. Garnet ran slow on beta and lab hardware, too, so who knows at this point? All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it. I'll withhold judgement until I see it on a real device along with the rest of you.

"All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it." Wow. In that case it must be good. Beersy, that's the most pathetic defense of Cobalt I've seen in a while. I think you left out "and 'Cobalt' is a really kewl name" . I've spoken to a few engineers with extensive experience with Cobalt running on REAL devices. They all say it is pure crap. Of course, you can Palm Apologize this away by saying that's because the Oswin phone is "very beta". And I suppose the Tungsten 3 sleds running Cobalt were also "very beta". You've become as predictable as Kirvin, Beersy. You disappoint me.

What PalmSource does admit, is that PalmSource and the Cobalt licensees have had a bad time with developing drivers in a timely manner--all the software that interfaces the hardware elements to the system. Time to market is really critical for phone development to be successful and they are fairly up-front now that they didn't have the engineering resources of MS or Symbian to develop phone systems top to bottom (including the drivers) in the timeline they hoped, leaving the licensees with a lot to do. Having a killer proprietary kernel with the most incredible framework and application stack on it does not get a phone to market until you have drivers for the chipsets, modems, screens... all the hardware that works with your proprietary system. That's a big part of why PalmSource has turned to Linux: so they don't have to develop and maintain the whole kernel and all the drivers and they can concentrate on the middleware framework and applications that are what make Palm OS what it is. (The demand for an open platform with more flexibility than Symbian or WM is the other big reason.)

You don't have to cast about for explanations for why Cobalt has been slow to market like TVoR tries to do. They've been telling us in various ways ever since the Linux announcement in December. But there's also a difference between "slow to market" and "no to market". I don't think I'm reading into things or being really speculative to say that there will be Cobalt devices coming on the market, whether they come from Palm Inc or some other licensee(s).

Beersy, I've been saying for years that Cobalt was a bad decision and that a Unix-based kernel should have been used (for reasons obvious to everyone except PalmSource/Palm). I've also posted why Cobalt was delayed (when PalmSource was being less than honest about its state of development). I've also said why Cobalt was rejected, what its weaknesses are and how it can NEVER do what was needed from a next-generation OS. In my posts I've "encouraged" PalmSource employees like the wonderful (really) Ms. Hackborn to try to be truthful with readers about what was wrong with Cobalt. In a roundabout way, eventually many of the problems I have spoken of have been admitted. Finally, people using Cobalt on a daily basis have ALL said it's Not Ready For Prime Time. Do you really believe we're soon suddenly going to see a flood of Cobalt smartphones being released over the next few months? Please. Try to THINK before you post next time. And enough with the parrotting* of Palm/PalmSource employees, already. They've proved repeatedly that what they say can't be trusted. (*I think the B.S. you quoted was from one of the speeches on Tuesday at DevCon a few months ago.)

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Show me the Proof or stop the BS!!!!!!!!!!
gfunkmagic @ 8/7/2005 2:18:44 PM # Q
>>>>> Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS...

Gawd, I'm sooo tired of people making statements like that when THERE IS NO PROOF to back it up. Please provide definitive links proving that these companies have dropped their PalmOS lisences, otherwise stop the misinformation...

--------------------
Gaurav

Dumb and Dumber
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 3:18:24 PM # Q
Gawd, I'm sooo tired of people making statements like that when THERE IS NO PROOF to back it up. Please provide definitive links proving that these companies have dropped their PalmOS lisences, otherwise stop the misinformation...

Gawd, I'm sooo tired of dumba$$es that are too clueless to read between the lines. Company X licenses PalmOS for 5 years. After two or three years they cease production of PalmOS devices. PalmOS is now in turmoil, is relatively primitive compared to its competition, and will not be able to fix these deficiencies for at least two YEARS.

The logical conclusion is:
a) Company X is no longer interested in PalmOS
b) Company X is no longer interested in PDAs
c) Company X is planning to make a dramatic, triumphant return to the market with a powerful new lineup of fully developed, bug free, high quality devices Real Soon Now.

Guess which is the dumba$$ answer?



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Dumb and VoR
rcartwright @ 8/7/2005 3:44:42 PM # Q
VoR,

You missed d) Major multinational tech companies don't feel compelled to reveal their planning in a very competitive market to a pompus, sophmoric, know it all who won't even post under his/her/its own name.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Catch 22
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 5:02:42 PM # Q
So I'll put you down a choosing "c", Cartwright.

I choose "a".

Thanks for contributing, though.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
AdamaDBrown @ 8/7/2005 5:45:44 PM # Q
Kyocera hasn't released anything in almost three years. Lenovo and Samsung haven't released anything based on PalmOS in over two years. You really think these companies are still in the market? Not even close.

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 8:57:56 PM # Q
Foo, please don't take this the wrong way, but:

1. You seem to have a very keen interest in a WinCE Treo (at least you were pushing this idea in one of your articles recently on pocketfactory.com); and

2. You have a demonstrated ability to produce convincing videos of pdas in use (remember the famous LifeDrive videos?).

Putting 1 and 2 together, is it possible that you were behind the creation of these videos? Please confirm or deny.

By the way, has anyone checked the FCC's website for this Treo 670/700/whatever?

Anyone heard from Mike Cane recently?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/25/2005 10:39:10 PM # Q
Is he OK? (Seriously.)

Ryan?


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
E Ben G @ 8/26/2005 12:36:59 AM # Q
You know, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually miss that POS.

(Pun intended).

Where is MC? MC...you OK?

Anyone heard from Mike Cane recently?
E Ben G @ 8/26/2005 12:49:05 AM # Q
Yo dog,

This post is simply and unapologetically for no other purpose than to give TVoR's subject-line a repeat on the '30 recent posts' list.

Mike Cane...come on man... what's up??? Show us some love.

RE: MC
twrock @ 8/27/2005 1:44:03 AM # Q
He's out there, just not here. It's not too hard to find him if you just look a little.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Reply to this comment

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 10:50:23 PM # Q
Like I've said before, Palm needs a Windows Mobile Treo (will generate HUGE sales) but a WinMob Treo is the equivalent of a TROJAN HORSE. It's the kiss of death for the PalmOS platform. Adios PalmOS. We hardly knew ya.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 10:59:56 PM # Q
By the way, I can't wait to hear the reaction of the dumba$$ Palm Apologists when this hits the proverbial fan. It's gonna get ugly. Real ugly.

Unfortunately, Cobalt's failure ultimately has triggered the demise of the PalmOS platform. Sony understandably left (they were expected to have debuted a couple of Cobalt-powered multimedia powerhouses in 2005), and now the inability of Cobalt to delive on its promise to provide a STABLE, "pseudomultitasking" environment means Palm has no other alternative but to get in bed with Microsoft. And we all know what happens to everyone that gets into bed with Microsoft... Get the lube out, Sonny!

It's sad to see that in the end, Windows didn't beat Palm - Palm beat Palm.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
E Ben G @ 8/5/2005 11:30:46 PM # Q
This is really just what Palm has planned all along. Come on people. A WM5 palm is 'all we really need'. Palm wins again, as always.

Right...

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
treo007 @ 8/5/2005 11:34:46 PM # Q
Further evidence that the majority of regular posters here are the most cynical bunch alive (memo to you all by the way, stop confusing cynicism with cleverness).

Anyway, what keeps getting lost in the number of discussions going on at various sites right now is the second half of the rumor: They're also going to release a Cobalt model. If the WM Treo is real, the Cobalt Treo may very well be too.

This is a win/win for Palm. They can sell to Palm AND MS users. The simple math: it means more sales.

For Palm Source, it's probably neglible. My guess is that few WM users buy the Treo because they've just got to have the hardware. If anything, it might even point out the failings of the WM OS versus something like Cobalt (assuming it delivers). And if it doesn't, who cares. I'd love an EV-DO, Cobalt powered, new model Treo.

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
legodude522 @ 8/5/2005 11:40:20 PM # Q
No comment.

Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present.
RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 11:41:59 PM # Q
This is really just what Palm has planned all along. Come on people. A WM5 palm is 'all we really need'. Palm wins again, as always.

Right...

If you were in charge of Palm what other option would you choose? There is none. Windows Mobile is hot, Treo is hot, most of your profits come from Treo sales, and your current OS is already obsolete with no replacement expected for a couple years.

Palm is wise to "take the money and run". Sure, once other Windows Mobile licensees start producing better hardware than the Treo, Palm is totally fcuked, but Palm should be able to milk at least another year out of profits out of the current Treo design.

Then they can gradually fade away, Netscape-style, only to cash in by suing Microsoft in 5 years. Ka-Ching!




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
wannitnow @ 8/6/2005 1:02:11 AM # Q
I don't know if others feel the same: I have a Treo and a Axim. I switched over when nothing was coming from PALM. The Axim was fun to have. BUT it was much better for everything EXCEPT the PIMS... Can't trust a WM with all those important data at all! For someone who really do need the PDA for important stuff, they wouldn't trust a WM device - don't think they can correct those issues with WM5 either... So for now, I would rather stick with my trusted Treo600.

PS: Having said that if WM can be better in handling PIMS, my 5 year son is having the Treo...

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
Gekko @ 8/6/2005 1:19:14 AM # Q

Can't trust FrankenGarnet.

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 3:50:37 AM # Q
For Palm Source, it's probably neglible. My guess is that few WM users buy the Treo because they've just got to have the hardware. If anything, it might even point out the failings of the WM OS versus something like Cobalt (assuming it delivers). And if it doesn't, who cares.

Is that really the best excuse you can offer? The sole remaining major manufacturer of Palm OS handhelds beginning to use Windows for their flagship line is proof that Windows is inferior?

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
Khris @ 8/6/2005 9:30:44 AM # Q
[i]I don't know if others feel the same: I have a Treo and a Axim. I switched over when nothing was coming from PALM. The Axim was fun to have. BUT it was much better for everything EXCEPT the PIMS... Can't trust a WM with all those important data at all! For someone who really do need the PDA for important stuff, they wouldn't trust a WM device - don't think they can correct those issues with WM5 either... So for now, I would rather stick with my trusted Treo600.[/i]

I have to disagree with you regarding WM and important information. I've been using my Axim full time for almost a year now and I've never lost any kind of information, or missed any alarms. The whole WM "problem" has been overexaggerated by many.

With the addition of 3rd party apps such as Pocket Breeze, the WM platform is just as useable as Palm.

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
twizza @ 8/6/2005 10:45:37 AM # Q
At this point, I see Palm wanting to (and should be) double dipping for as long as it can. They are in this to make a profit, not to keep us PalmOS lovers happybeans.

Cobalt is the next logial step, as Garnet is more than met its deathbead (pull the plug on it since it only has one feeding tube going in - Palm that is). Would be nice if it is nice and stable. From what I can piece together, there may be a wifi treo, that hands off calls from wifi to CDMA/GSM, and that handoff via Cobalt is where they are having an issue. Remember, this week PocketPC THoughts ran an article about WM5 doing seemless handoffs with wifi and cellular networks.

Now the question that only Ryan can answer:
If a WM Treo is released, does PALM-infocenter just account for the PalmOS, or the Palm name?

mobileministrymagazine.blogspot.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 11:05:59 AM # Q
At this point, I see Palm wanting to (and should be) double dipping for as long as it can. They are in this to make a profit, not to keep us PalmOS lovers happybeans.
Cobalt is the next logial step, as Garnet is more than met its deathbead (pull the plug on it since it only has one feeding tube going in - Palm that is). Would be nice if it is nice and stable. From what I can piece together, there may be a wifi treo, that hands off calls from wifi to CDMA/GSM, and that handoff via Cobalt is where they are having an issue. Remember, this week PocketPC THoughts ran an article about WM5 doing seemless handoffs with wifi and cellular networks.


"Double dipping"? More like SLOPPY SECONDS! This is gonna get all messy and gooey real quick. Antoine, Cobalt is so fcuked up that it would be dangerous to use it in a shipping product. Even FrankenPalmOS with IVs and feeding tubes all over the place is a safer choice. At least you know what you're getting with"Good Ole Frankie"!



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Stunning news: The videos are FAKE!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 11:05:59 AM # Q
After closer inspection, it's obvious that this is a fake. First of all, the square buttons on the keyboard are a dead giveaway. The most obvious Photoshop artifact I've even seen. LiveFaith would be embarassed! Secondly, if you slow the video down to 1 frame per second, you'll see that it's actually a video playing on a PalmOS Treo. How devious of them! Thirdly, the video is cut to make it seem like the splash screen is actually loaded on power on. In reality the clown that put this video together spliced a second videotaken with the Treo already on and running a full screen video showing A WinMob screen.. Notice how no true screen interactions are shown. What a dastardly villain!

Whew! That was a close one. I feel better now:

Notice to the sicko that leaked this video: I'm onto you, dumbass. Your face is clearly visible in the screen reflection. It took all of TWOMINUTES for a friend of mine in the FBI to process the image and get a clear picture who you are. You are TOTALLY fcuked. I love it. Photo of the "Deepthroat" to be posted later...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
twrock @ 8/6/2005 1:08:52 PM # Q
Surur, do you have a compulsion to get yourself banned? I guess we'll see you back as sr5, right?

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 1:17:46 PM # Q
Ive been controlling myself as best I could, but I could just not resist this time.

Sorry Ryan. Wont do it again (unless something more ground shaking than this happens :( )

Surur

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
Admin @ 8/6/2005 1:47:02 PM # Q
Surur, you can post a link, but not the whole image.
Terminal Illness
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 1:59:48 PM # Q
Here you go then :)

This picture describes the cycle of bereavement after the family of POS was informed that it was terminally ill. POS has been sick for a long time, and while the work has become more and more demanding, it has just not been able to keep up. Its performance became poorer, it required longer and longer to recuperate from heavy work, sometimes up to two minutes, sometimes it even collapsed and went into a coma. His family did not know it was really going to die however, even though in the back of their minds they know things were getting serious. The latest news however really made it clear that POS wont be turning the corner, but will continue to get worse and worse, until is slips away into the night.

http://tinyurl.com/cz7zr

PS: From the above, a picture is clearly worth a 1000 words ;)

Surur

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 3:54:39 PM # Q
What was the photo? Please post the link


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Ignore last post. [Damn NetFront won't refresh pages!]
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 3:56:47 PM # Q
Posting from my UX50 is a PITA (pain in the a**) - NetFront has to be forced to refresh before any new posts are seen. It's pathetic that this is the best browser we have. It won't even support carriage returns on the UX50 (but the VZ90 version of Netfront is a bit better).

I hope Ryan allows Surur to put that cartoon back. It pretty much sums up what everyone has been dreading here for the past three years. I reached the Acceptance Stage when Sony pulled out, but thinking about what COULD HAVE BEEN (OLED-screened UX, smaller VZ90, PalmOS T630, LiveFaith's Treo designs, etc.) is like pouring salt in the wound and drags me back to the Anger Stage.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
LiveFaith @ 8/6/2005 7:29:27 PM # Q
Deep breaths there VR. The new Samsung with Cobalt is gonna cure what ails ya. :-o
http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/samsungi750.JPG


Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 8:12:11 PM # Q
There's a "special" room in Hell reserved just for people like you, Pat!

;-O


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

The best photos yet of the Windows Mobile Treo:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/8/2005 10:58:09 PM # Q
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000050053387/

Build it and they will cum™.

- Multitasking
- "Free" push email
- Runs buth WinMob apps AND PalmOS apps (with StyleTap Platform)
- Has REAL browsers available (Opera + NetFront)
- IT managers just LOVE the Windows name


Right now I'm finding a hard time coming up with reasons the WinMob Treo isn't going to CRUSH the PalmOs Treo.

Nagging questions:

- How buggy is NVFS support in WM5?
- Is build quality better than the (shoddy) Treo 650 and 600?
- Pricing?
- Will StyleTap be sued out of existence before they finish STP development?
- Specs?
- Still need extra software to replicate intuitive PalmOS UI? Will Microsoft EVER get the UI right?

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
sr4 @ 8/9/2005 3:07:39 AM # Q
WM 5 has been rolled out to 1900 internal beta testers, and the NVFS used is the same one being used in MS smartphones since 2002. The only hiccup is that writes to storage are slower than normal ram, so some legacy software will run slower, and will need optimizing. However the main developers have actually been given WM5 devices more than 6 months ago, so major software like PocketInformant is already optimized for the platform.

Surur

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
NewtonDKC @ 8/9/2005 10:28:30 PM # Q
Wannitnow, can you cite a few examples of how you find the CE PIM apps to be inferior to Palm? I actually found the reverse to be true (and that was certainly a surprise to me - but this was several years ago, before the enhanced PIM apps that Palm offers on their specific models).

For example, I was pleasantly surprised to find - on my iPAQ Pocket PC - that I could have multiple addresses for each person in my address book (err - I mean Contacts ). I actually have a considerable number of contacts - mostly friends or relatives - where I have a home address and a work address (usually for shipping say flowers to Mom on Mother's Day at work, home for everything else, friends that I send computer stuff to at work so it doesn't have to sit at their home address or reside at the Delivery station forcing them to pick up after hours, blah blah). On the Palm I had gotten around this by creating duplicate entries for the same person for the extra addresses. But once you get them, you realize how utterly ridiculous it was for Palm to not offer this until the...what, T5? And PalmSource STILL doesn't offer it, it's a Palm add on! So that reason alone blew Palm's Address Book away (not to mention the ability to store meeting attendees, among other bits. And this is the built in, run of the mill Contacts app, NOT any add on's which do add even more features.

For the Calendar, I find the Palm hands down to be easier to add a new appt - *provided the appt begins on the hour*. Fewer taps required on the Palm. IF it begins on the half hour then it gets more difficult to compare (and of course I have since found the option on both to show the half hour marks). :-) I still miss the Palm's incredibly elegant way to set the start and end times with the incredibly easy to use pop up list of 0-9 for each number in the time - the Pocket PC is throoughly annoying in this respect as you instead have a pop up list of specific times (hour and half hour only). Any odd times and you have to manually edit them, which although not the chore I'm making it out to be, nevertheless is easier on the Palm. I do, however, find meetings that require more than just the basic info and on-the-hour start times to require roughly equal numbers of taps - in fact, meeting forms requiring lots of info actually require less taps the more info required on the PPC (if that makes sense). So for overall points, I prefer Palm's Calendar method.

For Tasks, I find both platforms lacking, but more or less equal.

For email, the PPC wins - in fact, I find it unbelievable that email was not even included on some low end Palms (especially the old m series targeted at students, because Palm found students didn't use email???). But to keep the comparison to recent models, I do prefer the standard Inbox to VersaMail. I found VersaMail to be a major pain to setup for what should be very easy items (such as simply synching to Outlook's Inbox) though the most recent update seems to have corrected some of these issues. Anyway, the PPC's ability to handle attachments natively and to be able to attach files easily from the PPC (which I guess may be more of a PPC File System plus than the Inbox app itself), and the ability to handle incoming attachments just like on the desktop is a real plus (again, I realize what I'm listing here has more to do with the capabilities of the OS rather then limitations of VersaMail or Inbox, but either way you look at it, I find the PPC email solution easier and more powerful. And I can NEVER stress enough how nice it is to be able to read and respond to emails while I'm downloading/ActiveSynching in the background!!! The main thing I was looking forward to in Cobalt was true Multitasking as it really is the sort of thing that's just got to be there for any device targeted at Professionals (or impatient end users). It's geat to be able to open an attachment or follow a web link, read that and send your response all in the same session without having to wait on anything. Much more efficient. And this is something I didn't even realize how nice it was to have *until* I tried the dark side...but once you get used to having it, there's no going back. Call me Anakin I guess. :-)
Anyway, I am NOT trying to start the ubiquitous mud slinging battles that unfortunately seem so common to PIC these days; instead, I am genuinely interested in what Wannitnow (or others) finds better in the Palm PIM apps (and I do like hearing from people who use both - and actively so, noyt played with a PPC in a store for a half hour and now consider yourself "informed" on how a PPC works in real life, same goes for the reverse for PPC Fanboys who don't truly know anything about the Palm in real life useage scenarios). Though my primary device is now an iPAQ 4700, I do actively support both Palms and Pocket PC's at work and do my best to remain open minded and not hostile to either platform (I have seen support staff - both Palm and PPC - react somewhat..."biased" to users of the opposite platform, which I feel accomplishes nothing - they should address the issue at hand, offer more efficient ways to work with that platform and not throw a sales pitch for s a new device (EXCEPT when the person asks for advice when they are in the market for an upgrade, in which case I give truthful advice for both - and NO, the PPC is NOT always what I recommend, depending on the situation).

Wow, it's gotten so nasty around that I feel like I have to spend a half hour qualifying my position on platforms and other areas in an attempt to get true life experience-based posts on *recent* models (not based on Palm V's and Cassiopeia e10's) rather than get attacked. In the "good old days", of course, such responses would have simply been the standard and understood. How did we all turn into such nasty, bitter people constantly at each other's throats?

Just adding fuel to the fire.
twrock @ 8/11/2005 9:03:56 AM # Q
"HTC 'to build' Palm's Windows-based Treo" The Register, Published Thursday 11th August 2005 10:20 GMT (http://tinyurl.com/dk9tb)

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Reply to this comment

Welcome to the Hotel Redmond

twrock @ 8/5/2005 10:48:11 PM # Q
And in the master’s chambers,
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can’t kill the beast

Relax. It will all be over soon.



I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Welcome to the Hotel Redmond
cbowers @ 8/6/2005 3:24:47 AM # Q
Gak, your tagline jars me every time. Nothing mythical about it. I had it in my hands.

No Myth, merely unreleased. Along with Symbol's unreleased color model running Handera's tweaked OS4. At least that one was shown in *front* of the booth at the very same Palmsource DevCon...

RE: Welcome to the Hotel Redmond
twrock @ 8/6/2005 5:37:37 AM # Q
Ah yes, the "mythical" color HandEra.

There was a time when we just wanted a HandEra 330 with a color screen. We all thought it was the "holy grail" of handheld computing. (Want proof? Just look at how many views this thread has gotten: http://palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24449) But those prototypes are now "a long time ago, in a place far, far away."

Quite honestly, I'd probably be a lot less cynical about the Palm platform if that is exactly what I had gotten my hands on. I'd probably still be using it with a high level of satisfaction. But since it never got into the hands of us mere mortals, it became a myth.

And you know how it is with myth. It continues to change and grow, until eventually no one is sure what it is anymore. So it becomes a fantasy machine, different for everyone who imagines it.

For me it is a unit with the features of the HandEra 330, but upgraded to a high powered CPU with at least 128mb RAM, WiFi & BT, minimum half-VGA screen. And it still has the PalmOS. There were so many great/innovative features on the 330, you just "knew" they could produce such a unit in color. (Honestly, the Zodiac2 came the closest to being that machine for me, but the writing was already on the wall, and I wasn't going to go through the pain once again.)

And if this rumor is true, it's all a moot point. It's likely we'll all be running WinMob anyway.

Oh well, it's water under the bridge now. But until someone finally builds it,...

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

Reply to this comment

Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive

vesther @ 8/5/2005 11:13:22 PM # Q
Judging from the pictures, I'm assuming that the WMTreo670 is likely going to be released first for Verizon Wireless, or probably exclusive to Verizon Wireless, but it may seem that it could be a re-brand for the Verizon Wireless Windows Mobile market, likely the Treo 670 (which I'm thinking is going to be rebranded) is gonna cost between $750-$1000 without a contract, remember guys the Microsoft Tax takes full effect here.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002
RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
legodude522 @ 8/5/2005 11:41:26 PM # Q
Most of Palm usually goes to Sprint first. But that was what I was told. Verizon already enslaved most of us like Microsoft so why not turn to them first?

Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present.
RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 3:49:30 AM # Q
What "Microsoft tax"? A WM license costs as much as Palm.

RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
vesther @ 8/6/2005 11:02:35 AM # Q
"Microsoft Tax"--Paying for the features mainly consumer-grade handheld users don't want (i.e. Pocket Excel, excessive features included with Microsoft Windows Mobile that may not be needed, but in a fact Windows Mobile was supposed to be more Enterprise-Grade).

I think it may be possible that Verizon Wireless is testing out a Windows Mobile-powered Treo right now as we speak. If possible, I'm guessing that this Windows Mobile Treo's likely going to be sold exclusively through business channels. Maybe Nextel might be able to grab it if the Windows Mobile Treo qualifies for an iDEN License.

I think Verizon's allegiance with Microsoft might have caused this IMO.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 2:09:39 PM # Q
>> ""Microsoft Tax"--Paying for the features mainly consumer-grade handheld users don't want (i.e. Pocket Excel, excessive features included with Microsoft Windows Mobile that may not be needed, but in a fact Windows Mobile was supposed to be more Enterprise-Grade)."

What in God's name are you talking about? Neither licensees nor consumers pay extra for features like Pocket Excel. It's included with the OS. What's that you say, consumers don't need Pocket Excel or Office apps? Well...better tell that to Palm because they are bundling Documents to Go with nearly every product they sell. Guess Palm buyers are being "taxed" as well. Those cads!


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
vesther @ 8/6/2005 3:27:28 PM # Q
The only reason why licensing Palm is as expensive as Microsoft Windows Mobile is because Palm actually has a contract with DataViz--it's been ensuing since the Tungsten C era--which each Tungsten came with Documents To Go pre-installed on Flash ROM. I'm not really talking about the Zires, though (although Zire 72 is Documents To Go Ready), but on a Tungsten and LifeDrive level.

I also think that Microsoft assumed that people wanted to use Internet Explorer, Word, and Excel on the go, but it's just me, thinking about the old days--Things have changed and people's handheld expectations change overtime, so I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that people everywhere want Office Productivity, but I think that in what I call a "last laugh basis", Microsoft ends up listening to customers, knowing what people want in their handhelds, and bundling what is to be more critical, I don't think that the Microsoft Tax matters anymore since Microsoft generally has all of their licensees listen to what the customers want, especially business professionals.

Because Microsoft has been bundling Word and Excel with the Windows Mobile suite, I think it only makes sense that Palm follow suit by bundling Documents To Go mainly with their Tungsten and LifeDrive handhelds. Generally, DataViz allows Palm to specify which handhelds will have Documents To Go included with a handheld, but Microsoft requires all of their licensees to include Word and Excel nonetheless, therefore Palm can keep entry-level handhelds simple to use.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 3:49:14 PM # Q
>> "The only reason why licensing Palm is as expensive as Microsoft Windows Mobile is because Palm actually has a contract with DataViz--it's been ensuing since the Tungsten C era--which each Tungsten came with Documents To Go pre-installed on Flash ROM. I'm not really talking about the Zires, though (although Zire 72 is Documents To Go Ready), but on a Tungsten and LifeDrive level."

What? PalmSource doesn't bundle Docs to Go with its OS. That's something Palm (the handheld maker) bundles with its products. Docs to go has NOTHING to do with the license costs of palmOS. It just drives up the overall software costs for Palm.

If anything WM would actually lower costs for Palm in that specific area. No more bundling requirements.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
LiveFaith @ 8/6/2005 7:39:37 PM # Q
vesther wrote ... <>

I know it's a sad joke, but this IS STILL the Tungsten C era. :-(

At least until they announce the C2 next week.
http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/tc2adhalf.JPG

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 10:34:40 PM # Q
I doubt that it would be a Verizon exclusive. If you listen to the regular readers of HowardForums, they'll tell you that the guy who provided the photos regularly comes through with information about upcoming Verizon phones. This would imply that he has access to Verizon phones before they're released. I would bet a lot that this is a Verizon-branded testing unit. Somewhere, there's probably Sprint and Cingular branded test units on tables at their respective companies getting the runaround from the techs, but we happened to get to see this one.

RE: Likely a Verizon Wireless exclusive
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 11:04:38 PM # Q
>> "This would imply that he has access to Verizon phones before they're released. I would bet a lot that this is a Verizon-branded testing unit. Somewhere, there's probably Sprint and Cingular branded"

Precisely. Whether this is an exclusive arrangement with Verizon or not (what a coup that would be for Verizon), you can bet there are "other" test models elsewhere circulating among carrier testing labs.

In any case, screw the carriers. I'll buy the unlocked GSM model just as I did with the 650. Getting screwed over by Palm is one thing. Getting screwed by carriers holds even less charm.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Treo 670 on spotted on Sprint catalogue Q4 2005?
sr4 @ 8/20/2005 1:13:01 PM # Q
Treo 670 Sighting.

The company I work for gets a 4th quarter cataloge for our 4th quarter "product show" we have to go to every year to order our stuff for christmas and stuff.

In the book under cell phones it has a Sprint Treo 670 listed. It also has a "new" sign showing that it is a new product. BUT it has a picture of the 650.( I guess since they don't want to show the 670 till the show) It says more details and pricing will be avalible at the show.

I'm just telling everybody what i have seen with my own 2 eyes.

JK


http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=93784&page=1&pp=20


Reply to this comment

Both WinMob AND PalmOS?

Gekko @ 8/5/2005 11:50:39 PM # Q

Is offering both OSs feasible for Palm given the high development and support costs? I don't think so.



RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 11:55:00 PM # Q
If dual OS support is designed in from the beginning, it actually doesn't cost any extra to support these. (Remember this phone that can actually run 3 or 4 OSes: http://www.oswintech.com/)

Since Palm will have carriers do support + they simply are ordering these puppies from HTC (no design effort for Palm!) + they have a guaranteed market, it's a win-win-win situation for Palm. Great way to score some huge profits short term.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 12:19:18 AM # Q
Ironically, there are probably less costs involved with developing a WM Treo model than the PalmOS version. Look what lengths Palm had to go in order to get FrankeGarnet tailor suited for Treo...creating OS customizations like a non-volatile file system. WM5 is a shake'n'bake solution, and HTC has the hardware aspects covered. The rest is up to the carriers. And since WM is now outselling palmOS, it's even more ironic that Palm would be, theoretically, opening Treo to an even larger market.

I don't see how this move can be anything but a win - win solution for Palm. As for the knee-jerk reactionaries within the Palm community threatening to burn their PDAs (why not themselves as well?) if Palm adopts WM, who gives a rat's lower torso. Heck, I'll provide the lighter fluid and matches. Seriously, do any of these clowns actually believe their juvenile rantings are going to effect Palm's decision? As if Ed Colligan is hinging his future strategies on responses from this community?

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
legodude522 @ 8/6/2005 12:22:36 AM # Q
Dual booting is unreasonable.

Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present.
RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 12:37:18 AM # Q
By the way, did anyone listen to what the guy in the last engadget video was saying? I nearly busted a gut laughing! :-P

"Let's see here now... Press the power button... Oh, what the hell is that? *Verizon Wireless* Oh, that's Windows, isn't it? Mmm, hmm."

Comedy.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
gfunkmagic @ 8/6/2005 1:05:56 AM # Q
>>>>>>>Look what lengths Palm had to go in order to get FrankeGarnet tailor suited for Treo...creating OS customizations like a non-volatile file system.


Jess...Foo you've gotten pretty sloppy lately. NVFS was originally a part of Cobalt. Palm didn't 'create' NVFS, they simply ported it from Cobalt into Garnet (frankengarnet) b/c they didn't want to commit to Cobalt at the time...

I support http://Tapland.com/

--------------------
GNM

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
cbowers @ 8/6/2005 3:37:11 AM # Q
"Dual booting is unreasonable."

Bah, other licensees toyed with it years back.

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 3:51:41 AM # Q
Actually, as far as I know they did have to hack NVFS themselves. Yes, Cobalt has native non-volatile storage support, but they still had to build a system for Garnet since they couldn't legitimately rip the one out of Cobalt. One having it first doesn't mean it's derivative. Windows Mobile for Smartphones had NV storage before Cobalt, and the Zaurus had it before WMS.

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 8:47:44 AM # Q
Gfunk, as far as I know Palm did NVFS themselves. Or so I was told during a briefing by Palm back when they first introduced the T5. Cobalt may have it as well, but Palm did their own work.

If you're right however, it does make things interesting. Garnet is supposedly "good enough" and yet Palm takes bits and pieces of Cobalt out in piecemeal fashion and incorporates it back into Garnet? That just further proves that something is dreadfully wrong with Cobalt that Palm could only utilize some of its features but not the OS itself.



-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 12:02:29 AM # Q
if my aging memory serves me correctly, the NVFS support in Garnet is not a backport from Cobalt, but rather a custom hack for Garnet.


RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 12:47:14 AM # Q
the NVFS support in Garnet is not a backport from Cobalt, but rather a custom hack for Garnet.

Correct. Too bad Palm's code monkeys are so incompetent. They're almost as bad as the WinMob Monkees.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 1:53:38 AM # Q
are you sure it was palm's code monkeys who did the nvfs hack? my aging memory suggests otherwise.


RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 2:14:36 AM # Q
My aging memory says my PalmSource contact said Palm's incompetent code monkees did the NVFS hack of PalmOS 5. And also issued the (nasty) fix.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 2:29:08 PM # Q
Ah. So you are certain.

I suspect you need better contacts at PalmSource, then.



Yes, PalmSource AND Palm butchered NVFS
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 3:50:05 PM # Q
Ah. So you are certain.

I suspect you need better contacts at PalmSource, then.

I never claimed to be certain, but I remember someone I spoke to at PalmSource saying they had worked on the NVFS chop job. I also remember being "corrected" by someone (Hackborn?) when I had the temerity to blame PalmSource for the buggy implementation.

But if this quote from Gavin's PUG forum is accurate, much (but not all) of the blame for the NVFS crap can be placed on the ever-incompetent PalmSource. (Gavin also spilled the beans about LG being the new licensee in this thread from MAY, by the way!) At DevCon and I believe also on one of his blogs, Palm's Ben Combee admitted Palm's initial implementation of NVFS was horrible:

http://www.auspug.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=31756

"I returned from San Jose on Saturday from the 2005 PalmSource Mobile Summit and DevCon which ran from Tuesday through to Thursday.

Probably the most 'entertaining' session was from palmOne engineer Ben Combee talking about NVFS and the issues around its early implementation (ie T5). Ben clarified a number of the reasons why they chose to do things as they did - an apologised for screwing it up. Ben also outlined a new version of NVFS support that Palmsource are working on which will improve things in a large number of areas.

The GSM and Sprint 650's along with the TE2 and LifeDrive's all contain later versions of NVFS that fix certain bugs. The LD is newer so obviously has the latest software. Patches for other various devices are in the works from what I hear. So if you're worried about the LD having the same probs as the T5 don't worry - it's been a long time in engineering terms between the T5 and the LD - and the lessons learnt have been put to good affect.

FWIW Palmsource did most of the work on NVFS (that included Ben when he was a Palmsource employee)."

http://palmos.combee.net/blog/TheNVFSFilesHowSyncsCanFa.html




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Martin Fouts - OUTED on PIC (Film at 11)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 10:41:50 PM # Q
What's the matter, penguin? Cat got your tongue?

p0wn3D


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 11:24:07 PM # Q
Why would I want to comment? In one post you blame Palm for bad code, in another you blame PalmSource. It's much more fun watching you gyrate than commenting on those gyrations. Especially when the issue surrounding NVFS on the 650 isn't as simple as code quality.



TVoR still is Mr. Nice Guy.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 11:50:42 PM # Q
Why would I want to comment? In one post you blame Palm for bad code, in another you blame PalmSource. It's much more fun watching you gyrate than commenting on those gyrations. Especially when the issue surrounding NVFS on the 650 isn't as simple as code quality.

Fouts, I hope Hackborn personally biotchslaps you for extreme stupidity. I'll email her a copy of this thread tonight. You might want to call in sick tomorrow, lest Mistress beats you silly.

As we've seen over the years, BOTH Palm and PalmSource can't code their way out of a wet paper pag. There are probably no more than a dozen codemonkeys at PalmSource that actually earn their salaries. The rest of you are parasites should have been let go a LONG time ago. So is "Linux God" Fouts going to run PalmSource's PalmLinux program this year? You and Combee must make quite a couple. Dumba$$.

Come on Fouts. Surely you can do better than that. Even Surur made you look like a fool without even trying. Please keep it coming. I love the erudite, bemused look. Do it again. The peanut gallery is on the floor laughing...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
PenguinPowered @ 8/8/2005 1:50:04 AM # Q
That was funny. Rant some more. I'd forgotten how funny whiner on the web can be.

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
hkklife @ 8/11/2005 11:00:47 PM # Q
Voice, you mean NetSCALPING.

As in, all of those that haven't fled the Alamo (ie the POS camp) by this point will be slowly starved out in a long siege. Ultimately scalped, of course, by the WinMob hatchet that Palm Inc. just buried in the already (PalmSource-bludgeoned) skull that is the Palm OS.

Desperate times... desperate measures
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/11/2005 11:04:53 PM # Q
Isn't it pathetic how PalmSource has now been reduced to getting their employees to post BS suggesting FACTS aren't true? These people are sounding more and more like the Iraqi Foreign Minister every day! Now that people actually can SEE the WinMob Treo, the PalmSource Damage Control Astroturf Squad says "but nothing has "officially" been announced"...

I said last year the Wimdows Treos were coming and guess what? I was right again. I'm batting around 950 these days and my on base percentage is equally stellar.

[TVoR pats themself on the back...]


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
hkklife @ 8/11/2005 11:19:30 PM # Q
Make sure there's not a dagger in your back (or between your ribs) with the new orange Palm logo on it while you're patting yerself back there...it's their goodbye gift to us Palm OS faithful!


;-)



RE: Both WinMob AND PalmOS?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/11/2005 11:54:52 PM # Q
Notice how someone keeps deleting every post revealing the true identy of that PalmSource Astroturfer? HILARIOUS!


In case you missed it:

PenguinPowered = Marty Fouts = a PalmSource Linux engineer

His post's make a lot more sense if you know what he does for a living, don't you think!

;-O


I was planning to drive to Los Gatos on Monday, so I decided to drop by PalmSource and give Fouts a little "present" (a square of artificial "turf"!) on Monday. Unfortunately, traffic was horrible and we cancelled our trip. Should I mail it to him?

;-O


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Reply to this comment

Button Layout?

Gekko @ 8/6/2005 1:25:23 AM # Q

I can't see the videos. Does the\is alleged Treo's button layout tell us anything? I seem to remember a comment about the prior photos of the alleged "WinMob Treo" that said the button layout indicated it was a hoax.



RE: Button Layout?
gfunkmagic @ 8/6/2005 1:39:16 AM # Q
I think you're referring to the photoshop of earlier this week. The original leak about a WM Treo unearthed a couple months ago. The photoshop of earlier this week was a photoshop of that first leak and it was proven be comparison of the thumbboard layout to prove it. However, these new vids are real imo and supposed Treo 670 corrolates with the initial WM Treo leak...

--------------------
Gaurav
RE: Button Layout?
cbowers @ 8/6/2005 3:50:46 AM # Q
"I can't see the videos."

They play fine in TCMP on one's palm (other than the Qualcomm audio codec).

RE: Button Layout?
hkklife @ 8/6/2005 10:13:41 AM # Q
Hot damm, that's what looks to be the Athena connector on the bottom of this thing (see video 1). Well, at least we'll be able to keep our accessories when we all migrate from POS to WinMob!


Reply to this comment

I refuse to believe

M3wThr33 @ 8/6/2005 4:11:43 AM # Q
In none of the shots does he actually touch the screen. Heck, the Palm keyguard is on in the 3rd shot!
Reply to this comment

The Sound of Silence.

AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 3:55:59 AM # Q
This news has been out since early today, and we only have a couple of dozen comments so far. Normally, on anything even close to this level of significance, we'd see at least 80 by this point. But it seems that a lot of Palm loyalists are hiding in the bushes, unwilling to comment on it. It's the same over at 1SRC: 20 some replies to the information, most of which have nothing to do with the original topic. Come on out, kids--it's not going to go away if you ignore it. The most inventive arguments coming out of 1SRC are that "just because the 670 CAN run Windows, doesn't mean it WILL run Windows," and "It's all just a video being played on an--um--on a prototype Treo 650. It's all a hoax!" I guess some people can't handle the idea of Palm, the-sainted-company-that-can-do-no-wrong, cavorting with the devil called Windows.

We'll probably have to wait and see what wacky excuse Jeff Kirvin comes up with for why this is fake/irrelevant/good for PalmOS/a guaranteed failure before the loyalists feel confident enough to poke their heads out en masse.

RE: The Sound of Silence.
hkklife @ 8/6/2005 9:51:37 AM # Q
Bah to Kirvin's comments. I want someone to corner Hawkins and Dubinsky and ask them what THEY think about Palm throwing in the towel on the eve of the 10th anniversary of Palm shipping the original Pilot line?
I mean, really, things should never have been allowed to plunge to these depths. This all stated in the Yankowski era and has been on a tailspin (Handspring acquisition aside) since then.

I STILL maintain that trying to fund new product development across two or three OS's and simultaneously support FrankenGarnet, Cobalt and WinMob will be taxing beyond belief to Palm's resources and may stretch them to the breaking point. How are they going to proceed with their attention to quality and an accelerated release schedule that's been hinted at in recent interviews and articles with this kind of drain on the company coffers?

RE: The Sound of Silence.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 10:11:22 AM # Q
When you see the bomb finally drop, it's not surprising to see the Palm Faithful in shock. Like dogs that have been beaten down onetoo many a time, they are dazed + confused. Soon we'll see the stages of grief: posters will be in denial. There will be anger. Some will try to bargain. Eventually the truth will be accepted.
By the way, JJ's video is practically dripping withsarcasm - listen to his commentary! The one surprise is that I had heard that Sprint - not Verizon - had committed to a couple hundred thousand unit order of WinMob Treos (Treo 700). It's time for a little FTC sleuthing for confirmation that cannot be explained away.
RhinoSteve to Jeff Kirvin: Hold me.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: The Sound of Silence.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 10:11:22 AM # Q
I guess they will have to drop one of those OS's then. Will it be Cobalt or Garnet?
Surur


Ummmm... Both? By the way, it's not hard to drop something you never held. And I think people are overestimating the amount of work needed to put an OS in a PDA. Unlike with KludgeOS 5™, putting a modern OS on a modern PDA will soon require as much"effoft" as installing a copy of Windows on a PC. Phone call to HTC: "Yeah, can you put WinMob onthose?" "No problem."




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: The Sound of Silence.
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 10:14:41 AM # Q
I STILL maintain that trying to fund new product development across two or three OS's and simultaneously support FrankenGarnet, Cobalt and WinMob will be taxing beyond belief to Palm's resources and may stretch them to the breaking point.

I guess they will have to drop one of those OS's then. Will it be Cobalt or Garnet?

Surur

RE: The Sound of Silence.
hkklife @ 8/6/2005 10:35:55 AM # Q
Surur;

I think that for a while in '06 they ARE planning on supporting the three OSes simultaneously. I just don't feel they can do it over the long haul.

Here's a possibility:
'06:
Treos: Garnet, Cobalt, WinMob
High-end PDAs: Cobalt
Midrange and low-end PDAs: Garnet

'07:
Treos: PoL, WinMob
High-end and midrange PDAs: PoL
Low-end PDAs: Garnet

Has a company ever issued an "interim" OS in computing history? I mean, I know WinME was pretty much a stopgap measure but I mean the "new" OS (Cobalt) being shelved while its predecessor (Garnet) remains on the market?

You could really almost see Cobalt being shelved after less than 2 years on the market in favor of Linux at the highend and good ol' Garnet (as long as it's being asked to do no more than 320*380 with either BT OR wi-fi it's OK) for the really low-end devices (just like how the Fossil watch & the classic Zire still offer OS 4.1). In fact, if Palm could commit to a reasonable, logical, and STABLE upgrade path from Cobalt Treos & LDs to PoL, it'd be about as painless of a migration as possible... if anyone, it'd be the developer community left holding the short end of the stick but it's not exactly like that's news nowadays...(the one point I've ever agreed with Kirvin on)

RE: The Sound of Silence.
twizza @ 8/6/2005 10:55:13 AM # Q
Told ya here that this was real:
http://forum.bargainpda.com/showthread.php?t=8567

Kept silent until I could get proof; still dont have nothing in my hands, but I 'knew' that it was on point.

Like I said above, it would be great for Palm (maybe not for PIC) but would be a heck of a blow to PalmSource (or whatever the new name) unless a Cobalt version is released first.

If other posters are right in saying that a WM Treo is not on the next model turn, it could be that this is under testing for a release whenever Palm deems that they need a WM Treo more than they need the fine sales of a PalmOS one.

mobileministrymagazine.blogspot.com
antoinerjwright.com

Win the battle, lose the war
JarJar @ 8/6/2005 11:10:13 AM # Q
If Palm releases a decent Window Mobile phone, it certainly can do well in the short run.

The main problem is that Palm cannot compete pricewise in a WinMobile world. The DELLs of the world have huge economies of scale and pre-existing relationships that allow them to buy components at prices that Palm will never have.

It will always cost Palm more to make the exact same device as DELL. Even if Palm has better engineering and better decision making they will never overcome the cost of components.

If instead Palm aims for a higher than DELL quality product, then the problem is that they cannot survive as a niche within an already small niche.

It's the price stupid.


Lastly: Cobalt is a great OS. Palm Source didn't fail because they made a bad OS, they failed because they didn't have a real world plan for hardware makers to use the OS. Instead Palm Source created economic incentives for hardware makers to stay with the older OS.

RE: The Sound of Silence.
vesther @ 8/6/2005 11:10:23 AM # Q
2007 Low-End PDAs should run under Cobalt rather than Garnet IMO. I think as far as Treo Tiering is concerned, I think that the Treo with Windows Mobile is going to be the high-end Treo.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002
RE: The Sound of Silence.
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 1:53:30 PM # Q
>> hkklife wrote: "Here's a possibility:
'06:
Treos: Garnet, Cobalt, WinMob
High-end PDAs: Cobalt
Midrange and low-end PDAs: Garnet

'07:
Treos: PoL, WinMob
High-end and midrange PDAs: PoL
Low-end PDAs: Garnet"

The number of PalmOS based products offered by Palm may depend largely on market trends. Here's food for thought...what if the WM Treo outsells the PalmOS version? Or if Palm offers one or two business class PDA models (Tungsten) running WM, and they outperform as well? What happens next, no one is going to like. Palm will ramp up WM offerings and phase back on PalmOS. The mobile device market may look very different next year, and it possible there will be of the former and less of the latter.

This WM Treo will be Palm's experimental attempt to enter the WM segment, which according to market data is larger than PalmOS's share of the overall device market. If it performs well in terms of sales, this will only be the beginning. More Palm WM devices will follow it.

At which point we can write off PalmOS, in any form. Garnet, Cobalt, Plinux..it won't matter.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: The Sound of Silence.
palmato @ 8/6/2005 4:02:34 PM # Q
Still I wonder what the added value of a Treo WM is to Palm. In a PalmOS they were free to make any enhancement they wished, even too much. But in WM I don't know if they will be able to differentiate the Treo from a generic no name with a similar keyboard and camera. Also branding of the device is going suffer as this is going to be sold as a "windows first, treo second" device. MS has always been very strict on branding.

On the other hand the costs of developing this device are probably close to 0. They just shipped the casing design and specs to HTC (or similar) and they took a couple of days to come up with a prototype. After all they have being this all along, and they can do it quickly and cheaply.

As far as support is concerned, I don't think it's a major issue: it's already absent for POS devices, so no problem here. :-)
Seriously, it will depend on the level of customization. If it is kept down to a minimum they probably can outsource firmware updates to the manufacturer and let the carriers do the rest.
Anyone noticed the lack of a Palm(one) logo?


--------------------------
Waiting for a TT successor

PalmOS will be nearly DEAD before PalmLinux even arrives.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 4:51:20 PM # Q
When you see the bomb finally drop, it's not surprising to see the Palm Faithful in shock. Like dogs that have been beaten down onetoo many a time, they are dazed + confused. Soon we'll see the stages of grief: posters will be in denial. There will be anger. Some will try to bargain. Eventually the truth will be accepted.

Looks like someone else was thinking the same thing:

http://tinyurl.com/cz7zr

My predictions about the final steps of the platform and Palm/PalmSource continue to come true. Within a couple of months PalmSource will announce a very disappointing quarter and there will be rumors that PalmLinux development has been delayed due to "unforseen circumstances". (Actually mainly due to a lack of competent developers remaining on this sinking ship.) PalmSource stock will go below $5, Palm will buy back PalmSource and start fielding a lineup of WinMob and PalmOS PDAs. The market will decide which is fittest to survive, but with "free" push email, momentum and the Windows name, WinMob already has an unfair advantage. WinMob is looking like T Rex to Palm's brontosaurus and the "Netscaping" will escalate when Microsoft smells blood. It will make sense for Palm to eventually release PalmLinux (in 2007 or so) mainly as an "alternate" OS to keep longtime users and Microsoft haters happy. By that point, PalmOS could easily be below 10% marketshare and headed toward MacOS levels of insignificance. The end always seems to come quickly when former market leaders fall from grace.

Suddenly, StyleTap Platform's significance has increased exponentially.

http://styletap.com/

As the number of PalmOS PDAs and smartphones declines, STP will at least allow those migrating to WinMob to retain their investment in PalmOS software. But eventually, most users will probably convert to native WinCE apps, leading to the death of the (already sickly) "Palm Economy". If I was a professional developer, I'd be quite pi$$ed right now. That's probaby why most developers (other than a few... unusual... characters like Beersy have nothing but bad things to say about Palm these days.

Once again, I'm challenging any Palm Apologist to bet against my predictions. I've noticed Mike Cane's demeanor has changed dramatically in recent monyths and he now seems to have progressed through the Stages of Grief: Denial -> Anger -> Bargaining -> Depression -> and is getting close to Acceptance. We're here for you, Caney. Keep your chin up, Little Guy.

Whatever happens, there will be a place for PalmOS PDAs for at least another 10 years and some models (Tungsten T³, Tungsten C, UX/TH/VZ series CLIES) will probably apreciate in value. If Newton, PSION, Amiga, etc communities can still survive, so will Palm's. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: The Sound of Silence.
Gekko @ 8/6/2005 8:12:28 PM # Q

Hello darkness, my old friend

http://tinyurl.com/cc9hx



RE: The Sound of Silence.
Gekko @ 8/6/2005 8:14:36 PM # Q
RE: The Sound of Silence.
AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 10:38:45 PM # Q
I guess they will have to drop one of those OS's then. Will it be Cobalt or Garnet?

I say, drop Garnet. If you're going to invest so much time and effort into hacking the OS, do it on Cobalt. That way, you can get the added benefits of a more modern OS. Hopefully, the ancillary rumor of a Cobalt based Treo coming up alongside the Windows one is true.

On that very subject, does anyone remember the original Treo 670 photos from TreoCentral's "dnt"? I recall that in the photos that showed the two units side by side, they had different button arrangements. On one, the two top buttons were blank, as is appropriate for the "soft" buttons on WM5. On the other, the top buttons had a home icon, and some sort of menu. I suddenly have to wonder whether this is the hardware differentiation for the Windows and Cobalt models. Well, I can dream, anyway.

JarJar, it's true that Palm could never compete on price-to-performance with Dell, but they don't neccessarily have to. Nobody, whether Windows, Symbian, Linux, or Palm, has successfully cloned the Treo. There have been attempts to build something similar, some reasonably successful (Samsung i730) and some not (BenQ P50). But nobody has ever outright cloned the Treo form-factor. If Palm beat them to the punch, and delivered the Windows hardware themselves, it would give them a huge sales boost, and prevent other companies from potentially eroding sales of the PalmOS Treo.

Palmato, many IT departments prefer to standardize on Windows-based machines (less support hassle, single supplier). Plus, WM5 has push email without the need for a new server from Good or anyone else, as long as a company already has Exchange. Besides which, being on both sides of the market allows Palm to make Treo synonymous with smartphone. And it allows for multi-tasking, integration of advanced applications like GPS personell tracking, etcetera.

RE: The Sound of Silence.
hkklife @ 8/8/2005 9:32:42 AM # Q
I say keep Garnet on all 320*320 and below devices (which admittedly might end up being just one or two devices by year's end) and focus on Cobalt for 320*480 and above. That's where the profit margins and early adopters are.

FrankenGarnet only becomes unstable when you start monkeying around with NVFS, multiple wireless protocols etc, non-square screens etc.

I still maintain that Garnet should have been "capped" at 5.2.8 (the last truly stable iteration) and all of the money thrown at in over the past two years should have gone towards licensing Cobalt and trying to get it into a barebones, usable state.

Right now the thing lendince more credibility to the Treo 670/700 rumors is the Rocafella guy on Howard's Forums. He's come through numerous times in the past and is nearly right on the money every time--see the CDMA RAZR, e815, i730 releases etc for details.

Reply to this comment

Hold me.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 11:27:41 AM # Q
I'm afraid, Mommy. The bad people are here.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Reply to this comment

Chief Senior Apologist?

Gekko @ 8/6/2005 1:28:36 PM # Q

Any word from Palm's bloated Chief Senior Apologist?



RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 2:07:32 PM # Q
To be fair to Jeff, he did not discount a WM Treo (see podcast 19). Where he is wrong however is thinking that a WM AND POS Treo was sustainable, e.g.

http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=982 (about minute 17)

Newbie: I want to sync all my categories on my POS Treo
Forum: You should have gotten a WM Treo

or

Newbie: I want to view PDF's I receive as an attachment or download over evdo
Forum: There is this hacked picsel viewer from Malaysia. Be sure to apply the UDMA hack too, and the language hack OR
Forum:You should have gotten a WM Treo

or

Newbie: I want to use WIFI
Forum: There is this gigantic enfora sledge, or this hacked driver which stops evdo from working OR
Forum:You should have gotten a WM Treo and use a SDIO card

or

Newbie: I want to play Midtown Madness on my POS Treo.
Forum: You should have gotten a WM Treo. And when are you going to stop bothering us?

When identical devices are placed side by side with different OS's the advantages/disadvantages will really be obvious. In the end only the POS fanatics will buy the POS Treo, and thats not really a large enough market.

Surur

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
bhartman34 @ 8/6/2005 5:15:56 PM # Q
Hi, Surur.

I don't know about categories on a Treo, or Midtown Madness, but I do happen to know that Palm has had WiFi available for some time now, either in the form of a card, or the LifeDrive (and whatever successor Palm comes up with).

In terms of games, Palm is AFAIK, far beyond WM in terms of number of game applications.


RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 5:28:41 PM # Q

I was talking about the Treo 650, for which the Enfora sled is the only solution.

http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=120505

Regarding games, WM is widely accepted to have better games, and WM5 will have a version of DirectX built-in.

The grass IS actually greener on the other side.

Surur

RE: Chief Senior Apologist? Not so fast, Surur.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 5:59:38 PM # Q
The grass IS actually greener on the other side.

I wouldn't be so fast dismissing PalmOS, Surur. I'd suggest that which platform works best for a given user depends on what hardware they have, what apps they use, what their needs are and how much effort they plan on spending in customizing/fixing hardware/OS deficiencies. I'll admit StyleTap Paltform does poke a very large hole in my argument, though.

If the majority of PDA + smartphone users only really need the absolute BASICS (Internet, email, contacts, calendar, to do list), the difference between PalmOS and WinMob may come down primarily to personal taste, price and marketing. As OS and IT demands increase (multitasking, VOIP, cheap "push" email, file handling) though, it's hard to argue against the advantages of WinMob.

But if either platform is able to produce an exclusive device that strikes a chord with the public (Palm Vx, iPod, Pet Rock, etc.) all bets are off. The best PalmOS hardware design I've seen (CLIE UX50) is no longer in production and is not a threat. I wonder if the HTC Universal will end up being the "new Vx" or just another pretender. I am not aware of ANY upcoming PalmOS devices with the potential to create a buzz like the Vx and iPod did.

Hint to Palm: you NEED a small, inexpensive ($200), stylish, high quality smartphone in your lineup running PalmOS to carry awareness of the platform into the minds of Joe Sixpack and Betty Budweiser. Think PalmOS on a Sony Ericsson T610 or T630. Continuing to ignore the low end is UTTER INSANITY. A second market (less important right now) is the style phone (think Motorola RAZR or PEBL).

By now Palm should know better than to bet against The Voice of Reason.

;-O

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Why we need advanced devices.
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 7:45:10 PM # Q
The HTC universal is going to be super popular with geeks, but it is large and expensive, and will sell in the 10 000's to 100 000's, not the millions. There's only so many well off geeks in the world.

Regarding the need for advanced features, many people need one "advanced feature", the more advanced features you need, the geekier you are. The problem is that everybody needs a different advanced feature, which means an advanced general purpose device is the only thing that would serve everybodies needs.

I'm probably not sounding very clear, so I'll give some examples.

1) some-one wanted to use their web mail, and of course the mobile browsers do frames and javascript poorly. Its a simple task, but may require an advanced browser.
2) As you said, some-one has a relative overseas, who may be geekish and suggest they use VOIP to speak to their children.
3) a business person would almost certainly receive pdf's in e-mail, and to him this would not be an advanced feature, but on the palm platform it is.

I really question whether the people in the low end need or want smartphone at all. I do not think PIM is the killer app anymore, else PDA's would have taken off. Its something else, probably connected to the Internet, but we are still finding it.

Surur

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
LiveFaith @ 8/6/2005 8:01:28 PM # Q
// Think PalmOS on a Sony Ericsson T610 or T630. //

VR,
That's been done for months now. Only problem on mine is the virtual grafitti area and the touch screen.

http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/palmt610.jpg



Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

What Palm needs to do to survive (and THRIVE)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 8:25:43 PM # Q
I really question whether the people in the low end need or want smartphone at all. I do not think PIM is the killer app anymore, else PDA's would have taken off. Its something else, probably connected to the Internet, but we are still finding it.

I agree that PIM is not the killer app for the average Joe, but that's not why PDAs didn't take off. The average Joe does not want to carry something as big as a PDA all the time. They WILL carry a small cellphone though, and by putting PalmOS onto something small enough to be carried by "normal" people, Palm could have given them something (access to thousands of apps + games, better PIM, more flexibility, expandability) for nothing (no weight/size penalty). Given a choice between a closed OS on a Sony Ericsson T630 and the same phone running PalmOS and allowing users to run Bejeweled, HandyShopper, DateBk 5, Vexed, etc, I think most people would opt for PalmOS. Even if it added $10 or $20 to the price of the phone. By selling to MILLIONS of casual users, Palm would help developers sell more software, promote their OS (attracting some people to upgrade to a separate PDA for bigger screens/advanced functions), and fight off the Microsoft Windows Everywhere™ hegemony. Without a low end "loss leader" (actually it would bring in profits, just at lower markups than the Treos) the platform's popularity (and ergo PROFITABILITY) is limited, now that everyone realizes that PDAs may only ever be a niche product.

The "killer app[s]" are already here, they just aren't yet fully developed:

1) Internet - everywhere, all the time
2) Email - everywhere, all the time
3) Multimedia - MP3, TV, videos
4) Digital camera/camcorder

Size will always limit what's acceptable to include on a phone but once bandwidth increases in the next two years, streaming content to phones is going to be HUGE.

PDAs need to reinvent themselves by taking advantage of Wi-Fi Max, OLED screens, improved batteries and increased storage capacity to become the ultimate in personal entertainment and communication devices. If you want the average Joe to carry a 5 ounce PDA, it damn well better give them TV, videos, their entire music collection, easy to view high speed Internet browsing, email with Microsoft Office file handling, 5 MP or higher digital camera and camcorder. With that kind of functionality (and with the OLED screen taking up the majority of the device), "PDAs" can be worthy of consideration for the "cell phone only" crowd. Since no one can yet put out an affordable PDA with specs like that (Sony's CLIE TH55 was getting close), for now Palm needs to concentrate on a realistic goal: leveraging PalmOS to turn Palm into a significant cellphone supplier.

By concentrating exclusively on the (lucrative) high end of the smartphone market, Palm leaves themselves extremely vulnerable. If the Treo 650 is suddenly found to have a catastrophic flaw or if (when?) WinMob manufacturers finally clone the Treo design, Palm is fcuked. Instantly. After 10 years of inventing, defining and driving the PDA market, Palm could disappear almost overnight simply because their execs made poor product planning decisions.

The WinMob Treo should be a huge success, but at what cost to the PalmOS platform? And does Palm have ANYTHING else up its sleeve?

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

10 lbs in a 5 lb bag
PenguinPowered @ 8/6/2005 11:44:04 PM # Q
It is easy to put together a feature wish list. It is a lot harder to get the feature set into a BOM that hits the budget.


Will Palm EVER release a low end Treo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 12:00:44 AM # Q
It is easy to put together a feature wish list. It is a lot harder to get the feature set into a BOM that hits the budget.

How about this:

A phone like the Sony Ericsson T630 (or even one of Sony Ericsson's cheaper phones) with the Treo 600 version of PalmOS. Sell it with just a sync cable (no accessories) for $199.

Wow. That was hard.

I think Palm doesn't want to sell a low end Treeo because it feels this would dilute the value of their (high profit) brand. They may be waiting until they've saturated the high end with WinMob and PalmOS Treo 650 - 670 - 700 before introducing the Treo 200 and 170 in 2006. We'll see soon enough if this strategy is a mistake.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 12:07:35 AM # Q
> I want to view PDF's I receive as an attachment or download over evdo

That's funny. Some WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever users would like to download and open Word documents without stripping out the formatting. Of course, they have to get a Palm to do that.

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 12:23:28 AM # Q
That's funny. Some WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever users would like to download and open Word documents without stripping out the formatting. Of course, they have to get a Palm to do that.


TextMaker preserves Word formatting for WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever users . I'm not sure if the current version can do it for emailed documents, though.

http://www.softmaker.com/english/tmp_en.htm

Be careful what you boast about. Sometimes it may blow up in your face, leaving you with many tragic scars and ruining your life. Then you will be a 65 year old short, unmarried man living in New York and spending 8 hours a day in CompUSA PDA aisles playing with hardware you can't afford on your $5/hour job. In other words, you might end up like M.C.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
mbuhboot @ 8/7/2005 1:33:18 AM # Q
And I ask my self, does TvOR, Gekko and the rest of the pack are paid-Microsoft-"dirty mouths" or simply bored, pathetic, no-job, no-family people with plenty of time to sit down in a forum dedicated to an OS they don't like, hardware they can't stand and just rubbish it!

Get a life! You don't like it? we herd it the first time! no need for 50 posts per thread!

You will not see Palm people intercepting WM forums trashing each feature ("Did you HR today?", "128MB and out of memory?", "624MHz and your CASIO calculator is faster", etc..).

Criticism is ok, but in a reasonable portion..

Have a great life!
Moshe


wrong bag
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 1:50:24 AM # Q
> A phone like the Sony Ericsson T630 (or even one of Sony
> Ericsson's cheaper phones) with the Treo 600 version of
> PalmOS. Sell it with just a sync cable (no accessories) for
> $199.

> Wow. That was hard.

Yes. Hard. Also lacking any of the advanced features you were requesting, or enough memory to support them.



K
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 2:01:54 AM # Q
Oy vey, Moshe.

Don't be such a schmuck already.

And to the T630 basher: since Palm aims low, I made it simple. 32 MB RAM, wholesale phone price = $100. You want details? Hire me you cheap little ******. Oy.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 3:44:02 AM # Q
> TextMaker preserves Word formatting for WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever users . I'm not sure if the current version can do it for emailed documents, though.

Yes, and Documents to Go does this too. The difference is that Documents to Go comes bundled with every palmpilot (and often it is pre-installed as part of the ROM).

Contrast that with WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever devices - it says right on the box that you can work with Word and XL documents. But you have to buy TextMaker just so that you can do so without destroying the formatting of your files.

But, silly me, I forgot that you can do more with a PPC!!!

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 3:51:42 AM # Q
> Newbie: I want to use WIFI
Forum: There is this gigantic enfora sledge, or this hacked driver which stops evdo from working OR
Forum:You should have gotten a WM Treo and use a SDIO card

Hey, Surur, why don't you tell the Newbie that he won't be able to use his phone while the WM Treo is running WiFi?

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 3:53:49 AM # Q
> Newbie: I want to sync all my categories on my POS Treo
Forum: You should have gotten a WM Treo

Surur, you should mention to the poor Newbie that, if he swallows the WinMob marking spin, he will end up with a poor-excuse-for-an-organiser.

Here is what Bruce Keener has to say:

http://www.dkeener.com/keenstuff/index.html

Notice that Bruce says that for a WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever device, it's 'almost essential' to buy additional software to do time management. Whereas for a palmpilot, Bruce says that the stock standard apps 'work great' and additional software is useful for additional functionality (if you want it).

You might also mention to the Newbie about the unreliable ActiveSync application and warn him that he will never quite know whether his data has synchronised properly to Outlook.

Contrast this with any palmpilot - you can synchronise to the Palm Desktop or directly to Outlook at your choice - and it just works, everytime.

But, I forgot, you can do more with a PPC.

RE: Chief Senior Apologist? - Svrontis?
sr4 @ 8/7/2005 5:54:59 AM # Q
svrontis, you are being ridiculous. The fact is that there is many basic things that POS devices CANT do, which you cant fix for love or money. Show me where to buy the PDF viewer? Show me where to buy the WIFI card for the Treo? Where's Skype?

svrontis, what are you going to say in two years when Palm discontinues POS devices?

I understand Jeff is stepping back commentating on the POS market. Svrontis, I think there's a job opening here.

Surur

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
joad @ 8/7/2005 1:38:05 PM # Q
quote: "Contrast this with any palmpilot - you can synchronise to the Palm Desktop or directly to Outlook at your choice - and it just works, everytime."

uh... Maybe you mean it USED to work nearly everytime since 1996 (occasionally you'd get duplicates, but the fix tools worked back then).

Now with the new 'DataMangler' patch introduced with the newer devices we can sync SOME of the PIMs on SOME hosts SOME times. Additionally, we lose MUCH valuable real RAM because the device needs to carry around the original PIM database as well as the "improved" (slightly) databases.

Although I have my issues with Activesync, it was MUCH more reliable for synching than the present DataMangler implementation. After synching with my desktop successfully since 1997, I'm stuck having to turn off Calendar and ToDo conduits in order to make it through Hotsync now. Hardly can call that "...it just works, everytime."

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
AdamaDBrown @ 8/7/2005 1:44:03 PM # Q
Hey, Surur, why don't you tell the Newbie that he won't be able to use his phone while the WM Treo is running WiFi?

Where did you come to this conclusion? As I recall, it's a manufacturer decision whether to allow simultaneous use or not.

I don't know who this Keener person is supposed to be, but he's wrong. Unless you're highly demanding, the default apps work fine on either platform.

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 2:33:14 PM # Q
> And to the T630 basher: since Palm aims low, I made it
> simple. 32 MB RAM, wholesale phone price = $100.

No one bashed the T630. I merely pointed out that it doesn't have the features you were asking for and couldn't support them.

> You want details? Hire me you cheap little ******. Oy.

Ah, I see. You're one of those people who become abusive rather than simply admit error? How boring.

Love the irony of your user name, though. Most amusing.

New job vacancy at Palm: Chief Senior Apologist! Apply now!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 3:34:25 PM # Q
I see reading comprehension is not ot your forté, penguin. I had said, "A phone like the Sony Ericsson T630" NOT "load PalmOS onto a SE T630". Get a clue. PalmOS hardware has to be designed from the ground up to support the OS. The point is that Palm could create a small, inexpensive phone-centric PalmOS phone if they chose to. They chose not to. We'll soon see if that was a mistake.

Glad to see you're easily amused. What's the word for people that are amused easily...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 4:09:05 PM # Q
> I had said, "A phone like the Sony Ericsson T630" NOT "load
> PalmOS onto a SE T630".

Ah. You need to have it slowed down farther. OK. "A Phone like the Sony Ericsson T630" does not have the advanced features on your wishlist."

> PalmOS hardware has to be designed from the ground up to
> support the OS.

Not really, no. It has to have certain kinds of hardware, and someone has to port PalmOS to it; but PalmOS is know to run on hardware that it wasn't designed from the ground up to support it.

> The point is that Palm could create a small, inexpensive
> phone-centric PalmOS phone if they chose to.

Yes. That is your point. But you went on to list a collection of features. My point, which seems to have escaped you, is that phones like the T630 won't support that list of features, no matter who makes them.

> They chose not to. We'll soon see if that was a mistake.

I guess that depends on your definition of 'soon'.

Reading comprehension 101
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 4:38:17 PM # Q
You need to take a deep breath and read this thread again, Bubba. Or have your Mommy read it to you. I said, "PDAs need to reinvent themselves by taking advantage of Wi-Fi Max, OLED screens, improved batteries and increased storage capacity to become the ultimate in personal entertainment and communication devices. If you want the average Joe to carry a 5 ounce PDA, it damn well better give them TV, videos, their entire music collection, easy to view high speed Internet browsing, email with Microsoft Office file handling, 5 MP or higher digital camera and camcorder. With that kind of functionality (and with the OLED screen taking up the majority of the device), "PDAs" can be worthy of consideration for the "cell phone only" crowd. Since no one can yet put out an affordable PDA with specs like that (Sony's CLIE TH55 was getting close), for now Palm needs to concentrate on a realistic goal: leveraging PalmOS to turn Palm into a significant cellphone supplier."

I did not say PalmOS on a SE630-like phone-centric phone will be the ultimate device. Even a Treo 650 is sorely lacking in usability when compared to what a standalone PDA like the TH55 or X50v can do. Or what I suggest a next-generation standalone PDA SHOULD be able to do if manufacturers want them to become more than just niche devices. (Those listed features are what are needed to entice people that only carry cellphones to start carrying bigger (5 ounce") PDAs as well.)

So in the meantime, Palm could set its sights lower and use off-the-shelf parts/designs to field useful products that would gain them market share and recognition. A "SE630 Treo" is one such device. HTC could probably put one together within a few months if Palm asked them to do so.

And if the device is going to fully support the features of the Treo600 OS that matter (like one handed navigation) a ground-up design is needed.

I won't biotch slap you (this time) since you genuinely seem to have misunderstood the previous posts and were (relatively) polite in your responses. ;-O



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
sr4 @ 8/7/2005 4:54:01 PM # Q
if WM for smartphones can fit into a package about the same size as a t610, so can POS. I thought it was supposed to be lighter in any case.

picture http://tinyurl.com/c6v2v

http://www.coolsmartphone.com/

Surur

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 5:31:59 PM # Q
> So in the meantime, Palm could set its sights lower and use
> off-the-shelf parts/designs to field useful products that
> would gain them market share and recognition.

Yes they could. The opportunity cost would kill them, but they could. The MBA types call this 'death by defocusing'.

There's a reason so-called smart phones aren't the same size as feature phones. It's device physics. Palm could do a feature phone sized pda-ish phone. It would be either so expensive no one would buy it or so crippled it would be indistinguishable from a feature phone.

Moore's law says that if you want a smart phone the size of a current generation feature phone at a price comparable to a current priced feature phone, you'll have to be patient.

You get feature set, compact size, low price. Pick two.


ATTN Jeff Kirvin: Career opportunities at PalmSource...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 5:41:16 PM # Q
http://careers.hodes.com/palmsource/joblist.asp


A total of 11 jobs were found
JOB TITLE LOCATION

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Software Engineer Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: Work on porting, debugging and maintaining our U...

Software Engineer Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: Help PalmSource to develop Linux Network applicat...

Software Engineer Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: Help PalmSource to develop Linux Network applicat...

Software Engineer Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: Lead engineer responsible for internationalization...

IT MIS / Finance Intern Sunnyvale, CA
IT MIS or Finance Intern - 20 hours/week PalmSource seeks a student inte...

Linux Security Specialist Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: Working as part of the team architecting and imple...

Linux System Architect Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: Taking a leading role in architecting the ongoing ...

Linux Kernel Development Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: Assisting with board bring-up using Linux on a var...


Executive Assistant to the CEO Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: Support the office of the CEO and CFO. This inclu...

Product Manager, Multimedia Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: As a key part of the Product Marketing team, you w...

Director of Product Marketing Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: As the Director for Product Marketing, you will l...

Snivelling Sycophant Sunnyvale, CA
Duties/Responsibilities: As the Snivelling Sycophant, you will blog repeat...


I HOPE PALMSOURCE IS ABLE TO FILL THAT VACANCY FOR "Linux System Architect" SOON! PalmLinux is on a tight schedule, you know...



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Are these specs good enough for a Palm smartphone?
sr4 @ 8/7/2005 5:51:13 PM # Q

SPV c500. Free with £25/month 12 month contract

http://tinyurl.com/b64tx

http://shop.orange.co.uk/shop/show/handset/orange_spv_c500/detail

Integrated Digital Camera
Bluetooth™ wireless technology
MP3 Player
Polyphonic Ringtones
WAP over GPRS
Email
Java™ capable

SPECIFICATIONS:
64MB RAM
32MB ROM
Processor TI OMAP, 200 MHz
176 x 220 transflective TFT (35 x 45mm)
Mini SD
Bluetooth
infrared
USB 2 interface
tri-band phone
GPRS class 8
5hrs' maximum talk time
four days' maximum standby time
Orange Backup, Pocket Outlook, Internet Explorer, File Manager; Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition.
Dimensions: 46 x 16 x 108mm (WDH).
Weight: 100g.

This is an older generation phone now. The current one is the spv c550 with QVGA screen.

Again, the tech is here now. That smartphone has more RAM then the LifeDrive! Its not a question of tech, its a question of will (and resources of course).

Surur

Should Palm release a $199 phone-centric PalmOS phone?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 6:08:16 PM # Q
> So in the meantime, Palm could set its sights lower and use
> off-the-shelf parts/designs to field useful products that
> would gain them market share and recognition.

Yes they could. The opportunity cost would kill them, but they could. The MBA types call this 'death by defocusing'.

There's a reason so-called smart phones aren't the same size as feature phones. It's device physics. Palm could do a feature phone sized pda-ish phone. It would be either so expensive no one would buy it or so crippled it would be indistinguishable from a feature phone.

Moore's law says that if you want a smart phone the size of a current generation feature phone at a price comparable to a current priced feature phone, you'll have to be patient.

You get feature set, compact size, low price. Pick two.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You say regarding putting out a small, inexpensive PalmOS phone "The MBA types call this 'death by defocusing"? I call it "saving your a$$ by covering your bases, improving brand recognition and marketshare, and helping your developers by invigorating the imploding "Palm Economy" by bringing in millions of new PalmOS users". You say POTÆTO, I say POTATO, Dan Quayle says POTATOE. Who's right?

[I am.]


The WinMob Treos will come out and sell well, but within a year or so, other WinMob licensees will perfect the formula (or just call HTC!) and then undercut Palm on price for a few quarters until the company goes bankrupt. Meanwhile, Palm embracing the Microsoft Collective severely undermines PalmOS ("Look, Bubba: even Palm's switched to Windows!") and will hasten its demise. Given a choice between a $500 Treo 670/700 running WinMob that can multitask, can run Skype etc, can hook up with MS Exchange for "free" push email, and can even run PalmOS apps via StyleTap Platform Vs. a $500 Treo 650 that can only run PalmOS apps, which do you feel companies and individuals will choose? As PalmOS marketshare plummets, hysteria will rise and developers will flee, leaving no one waiting for PalmOS' triumphant return in the form of PalmLinux in 2007. Imagine a debutante ball where no one shows up. It's inevitable - assuming PalmLinux doesn't end up getting cancelled outright next year.

HTC could easily have put together a very basic phone-centric PalmOS phone a year ago and given Palm the one-two punch it's sorely lacking. Feel free to bet against me, but most people are finally starting to see the writing on the wall. Palm lacked leadership brave enough to change the company from being primarily a PDA company into being primarily a smartphone company. There were several people within Palm that actually were against absorbing Handspring. Many of those people are no longer with Palm for some strange reason. No doubt these were some of your "MBA types" that would "call this 'death by defocusing'". Had Palm not "defocused" on PDAs and "refocused" on smartphones, they would probably no longer still be in business as an independent company today. So pardon me for saying I think your argument is utter crap.

Take care.

TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 6:47:58 PM # Q
yes. that would do as a ho-hum smartphone. it wouldn't have the feature set, the screen is small, that's a very slow omap, and there's no keyboard to speak of, but sure, if Palm wanted to get into the cut-throat end of the phone business and lose their shirt, that would certainly be a way for them to do it.

This debate is ridiculous!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 7:00:18 PM # Q
yes. that would do as a ho-hum smartphone. it wouldn't have the feature set, the screen is small, that's a very slow omap, and there's no keyboard to speak of, but sure, if Palm wanted to get into the cut-throat end of the phone business and lose their shirt, that would certainly be a way for them to do it.


[Leave it to Surur to crystallize the points that make Palm look bad!]

You're hilarious. Surur posts that Orange has a "free" Windows phone with these specs and you think it would only make a "ho-hum" entry level phone for Palm?

Integrated Digital Camera
Bluetooth™ wireless technology
MP3 Player
Polyphonic Ringtones
WAP over GPRS
Email
Java™ capable

SPECIFICATIONS:
64MB RAM
32MB ROM
Processor TI OMAP, 200 MHz
176 x 220 transflective TFT (35 x 45mm)
Mini SD
Bluetooth
infrared
USB 2 interface
tri-band phone
GPRS class 8
5hrs' maximum talk time
four days' maximum standby time
Orange Backup, Pocket Outlook, Internet Explorer, File Manager; Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition.
Dimensions: 46 x 16 x 108mm (WDH).
Weight: 100g.


If Palm made a low end phone with the same specs as that "free" Orange phone I would buy one the minute they were released. As - I suspect - would a LOT of other people for whom a bulky, expensive Treo is simply unacceptable.


Let's just compare the specs of that "free" Orange phone to those of the $600 Treo 600:

Display: Backlit, 160 x 160 pixel color CSTN display with 3375 colors (that equals 11.5 bit color, but is compatible with 16 bit color apps). Adjustable brightness and contrast).

Performance: 144 MHz Texas Instruments OMAP ARM processor. 32 megs of RAM with 24 available to the user. Palm OS 5.2.1H.

Size: 4.4 x 2.4 x 0.9 inches. 6.2 oz.(CDMA version), 5.9 oz. (GSM version).

Audio: Built in speaker. 16-channel MIDI polyphonic ring tones. Supports alarm sounds, LED alert and vibrating alerts.Can use standard 3.5mm headphone jacks on the 2.5'' jack with an adapter that's not included.

Expansion: 1 MMC/SD slot supporting SDIO.

Battery: Rechargeable Lithium Ion battery. Not user replaceable.

Software: Palm OS 5.2.1H. Includes the usual suite of Palm applications, including Address Book, Date Book, Clock, To Do List, Memo Pad and Advanced Calculator. Blazer web browser included. SMS, MMS/Picture Mail, CityTime world clock, for email you get a POP3 email client (GSM/GPRS) and PCS Business Connection for the CDMA Sprint version. 3rd party software includes Documents To Go, SplashID, SplashMoney, SplashShopper, Klondike, Zap! 2016.

Network: Either: CDMA (Sprint): 800/1900 MHz, supporting CDMA 2000 1xRTT for high speed data
or GSM/GPRS (AT&T Wireless, Cingular Wireless, T-Mobile
and others): 850/900/1800/1900 MHz world phone. Class 10 GPRS.

Camera: VGA 640 x 480 camera (.3 megapixels).

http://www.mobiletechreview.com/treo_600.htm

Or compare the Treo 650's specs:

Display: Transflective TFT color LCD, 64K colors. Screen size diag: 2.75", resolution: 320 x 320.

Battery: Lithium Ion rechargeable. Battery is user replaceable. 1800 mA.

Performance: Intel XScale PXA270 312 MHz processor. Approx. 23 MB available memory for storage, using non-volatile flash ROM.

Size: 4.4 x 2.3 x 0.9 inches. Weight: 6.3 ounces.

Audio: Built in speaker, mic and 2.5mm stereo headphone jack. Supports ring tones and alarms as well as vibration. Real Player included for your MP3 pleasure. Can use standard stereo headphones with optional adapter.

Networking: Sprint: CDMA digital 800/1900MHz bands for Sprint version. 1xRTT (Vision) for data. Integrated Bluetooth. GSM (Cingular, AT&T Wireless and unlocked versions): quad band world phone, 850/900/1800/1900MHz bands with GPRS and EDGE for data.

Camera: VGA CMOS camera capable of shooting photos up to 640 x 480 resolution. 2x digital zoom. Can shoot video with audio.

Software: The device runs Palm OS 5.4.5. Palm Desktop for Windows and Mac included. Windows only conduits to sync to Outlook rather than Palm Desktop if you prefer. Documents To Go 7, RealPlayer, Blazer 4.0 web browser, VersaMail 3.0, Camera, Camcorder, Pictures & Videos, Card Info, Security, Memos, calculator, eReader, Bluetooth, Handmark Solitaire, Zap!2016 and Tetris.

Expansion: 1 SD (Secure Digital) supporting SDIO.

Come on, Bubba - at least have the cojones to admit when you've been beaten (badly) in a debate.

Note to Surur: I somehow feel unclean accepting your help in a debate. Am I now on Bill's payroll? When is he flying us out to the compound in Redmond? ;-O


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

defocus
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 7:16:52 PM # Q
Palm's a niche player. It's not a mass producer. It's not positioned to compete with the mass producers. Either it finds a way to keep its niche fresh or it falls on its face. Switching from PDAs to high end PDA phones was a niche freshener. Entering the mass phone market is a suicide play. Boutique brands should not try to get into commodity markets.

Stop confusing what you want with what works for the business.

PalmSource won't be cancelling Linux next year. They don't have the resources to switch horses again. Either this one gets them across the river or they disappear.

The handheld pure PDA market is dead. All that's left is replacements for aging gear. Players like Garmin leverage their strengths in other areas to freshen up the PDA, but it's not a big deal for them, it's a side line.

The US cell market is not where you're going to see innovation, anyway. US carriers have pretty much killed any chance of that. Look to Asia, especially Japan and China, and to a lesser extent Europe, as the markets where cell innovation is going to appear. Look to the US to continue to widen the gap between it and the state of the art.


RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
sr4 @ 8/7/2005 7:41:02 PM # Q

No problem VOR. I just hate apologist arguments that try to hide behind technical reasons (e.g. "Moore's law says that if you want a smart phone the size of a current generation feature phone at a price comparable to a current priced feature phone, you'll have to be patient."). These are easily proven wrong.

I cant comment too much on business reasons however. The current spv c550 is a third try at the market, and are going to have great difficulty competing against a "pretty" phone such as the Razr. For the people who value utility over style a non-keyboard non-touchscreen smartphone may not have utility enough. In that I can agree with PenguinPowered that there is no proven market for a small smartphone vs a PDA-phone (such as the Treo).

However the Motorola Q will actually address the two problems I alluded to, in that it will be stylish (or at least fashionable), and by using a full Qwerty keyboard will address the functionality concerns of a device with only a keypad.

However MS's strategy is to make these phones compelling to the carriers by increasing ARPU. The c550 is has got dedicated music keys (play, FF Rev etc) and makes it easy to download music from the carrier at £1.50 (about $2.60) per track. Of course it also has server activesync and e-mail. If these facilities get used even a little it can dramatically increase the amount of money the carriers earn from each customer, which will make them eager to promote these devices.

I'm not sure POS can play in this market, but either way, due to the limited input options, they could not sell it upon the legacy apps, but on the benefits the OS provide to the carriers.

This is the specs of the current generation SPV c550. The SPV c600 is already in the works, with pics leaked.

Orange SPV (Sound Photo Video) C550 review.
http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/htc-hurricane-en.shtml
http://www.coolsmartphone.com/article451.html
Class: Windows Mobile smartphone
Form-factor: candy bar
Body materials: anodized aluminum and plastic
Position in the line: above HTC Typhoon
OS: Windows Mobile 2003 for Smartphone SE
CPU: Texas Instruments OMAP730 220 MHz
RAM: 64 MB (51.61 MB available to a user)
Flash: 64 MB (26.97 MB available to a user)
Interfaces: miniSD, IrDA (SIR), Bluetooth 1.2, USB for recharging and synchronization
GSM 900/1800/1900, GPRS class B, multi-slot class 10
Screen: TFT 2.2" with the resolution of 240x320 pixels, 65K
Camera: CMOS 1.3 MP without flash, records video
Note: four extra buttons for playing music
Battery: removable Li-Ion capacious of 1150 mAh. Battery life announced:
Talk time - 4 hours
Standby time - 6 days
Dimensions: 108x46x17.5 mm
Weight: 107 g

Surur

Please stop Astroturfing, Fouts
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 7:43:57 PM # Q
Well Fouts, I'll just give you a couple more "love taps" as parting shots, as it appears that the referee is about to stop this contest. At this rate you'll probably be needing a transfusion soon. [By the way, if you're going to try and defend your employer, at least have the cojones to publicly admit who you are like how Dianne Hackborn does whenever she posts...]

Palm's a niche player. It's not a mass producer. It's not positioned to compete with the mass producers. Either it finds a way to keep its niche fresh or it falls on its face. Switching from PDAs to high end PDA phones was a niche freshener. Entering the mass phone market is a suicide play. Boutique brands should not try to get into commodity markets.

Switching to smartphones was a "niche fresher"? Don't make me laugh, Bubba. That's the kind of marketing doublespeak that insults the intelligence of the readers here. Switching was a "Hail Mary" pass by a desperate company that understood (or at least SOME of the executives understood) that continuing the status quo would lead to certain bankruptcy within less than 5 years. Had (the equally-desperate) Handspring not been able to hand Palm the giftwrapped, brilliantly designed Treo 600, Palm would probably have been TOAST by now. Please save the euphemisms for the PalmSource pep rallys.

Palm was an 800 pound gorilla as recently as 4 years ago. If they aren't planning to get back to that level and are only trying to be a "niche player", they might as well quit now and stop wasting everyone's time. And Palm has NEVER been a "mass producer". As you know, Palm contracts with manufacturers to make its products. Nowadays, Palm doesn't even do much of the design work themselves - it's a matter of working with contract manufacturers (like HTC) that will build the products for Palm to a given price point. If Palm wants a $199 SE T630-like PalmOS phone, all (well, almost all) they have to do is tell the contract manufacturers what want and then sit back and wait for delivery. The real question is whether or not a fledgeling phone supplier like Palm can convince CARRIERS to sell such a phone. They should have done a better job trying.

So you think Palm's a "boutique brand" that is above getting itself dirty with those "commodity" phones for the unwashed masses? Guess what, Bubba? ALL phones are going to be commodity items faster than you can say "WinMob Treo". Handspring handed Palm what amounted to a two year head start on its smartphone competition, but (as usual) Palm sat still and squandered this advantage. Meanwhile, REAL phone companies that have long been players in the dirty, cutthroat world of "commodity" phones aren't blind. They're already copying the Treo designs and will eventually perfect, undercut and then surpass the Treo. Faster than you think. The past two years were Palm's Windows® of opportunity to cement relationships with carriers, improve marketshare, and advance the OS to the point that it was a bulletproof phone OS. Instead, Palm has done NONE of those things.

Stop confusing what you want with what works for the business.

I don't think many here would accuse me of that. I'm a power user that is probably a couple standard deviations to the right on the power user curve and I understand the average user needs things as simple as possible. But the average user is not stupid, so unless Palm starts offering up competetive product, as soon as other less expensive alternatives start arriving on the scene, Palm can kiss its market share goodbye. Somehow, Palm just doesn't seem to understand this. Successful companies are always afraid, always trying to innovate. The overriding theme at Palm over the past 5 years appears to have been complacency.

PalmSource won't be cancelling Linux next year. They don't have the resources to switch horses again. Either this one gets them across the river or they disappear.

Funny, that's what PalmSource employees would have said about Cobalt this time last year. In fact Dianne Hackborn told me so herself during one of our bleary-eyed conversations that I'm sure she has now suppressed. Strange how things change, isn't it Fouts? Palm doesn't even have the resources to ride that busted up, broken-legged nag (PalmLinux) they're on NOW. Anyway, Palm will absorb PalmSource soon enough. I hope you're keeping that resume updated in case PalmSource/Palm decides to trim some codemonkeys from the budget when they merge.

The handheld pure PDA market is dead.

Gee. Really? That was insightful. You must be the queen over at Slashdot. Only thing is that the handheld market for devices other than "pure PDA" is evolving just as Palm seems to be bailing out. Their supremely buggy first attempt to redefine the market (LifeDrive) was a halfhearted effort. Palm needs to finally stop scrimping pennies on critical areas (like memory), stop trying to be too clever for their own good, and also stop putting out buggy software. Unfortunately, for a product like the LifeDrive to be truly useful it will need a more advanced OS and a LOT better hardware that will end up making it prohibitavely expensive: OLED, 40 GB HD, Wi-Fi + Bluetooth, host USB, 8 hour user-replaceable battery, integrated cellphone radio, etc. The uber-expensive CLIE VZ90 showed the future of handhelds as personal media devices. The LifeDrive was a big step BACKWARDS from the VZ90 and suggests Palm will be incapable of creating a product that is the another paradigm shift for portable devices as important as the Sony Walkman, Palm Pilot, Apple iPod and Handspring Treo were. The Golden Age of PDAs is now over and there's NOTHING to replace them with.

All that's left is replacements for aging gear. Players like Garmin leverage their strengths in other areas to freshen up the PDA, but it's not a big deal for them, it's a side line.

Funny, I heard Garmin was dropping PalmOS.

The US cell market is not where you're going to see innovation, anyway. US carriers have pretty much killed any chance of that. Look to Asia, especially Japan and China, and to a lesser extent Europe, as the markets where cell innovation is going to appear. Look to the US to continue to widen the gap between it and the state of the art.

Palm should not care about the US not being a market for innovative cellphones. They should be more concerned with ways to sell as MANY phones in as MANY markets as they can. Period. Unfortunately, up until recently Palm lacked execs with experience/knowledge of the cellphone industry and it showed. The only question now is will the new leadership have the time to fix all the mistakes of their predecessors before the competition CRUSHES Palm? Hard decisions are ahead. The WinMob Treo is the First of those decisions that will ROCK the PalmOS community. The Second will be the Reunification of Palm. The Third will be the...

Something's rotten in the state of Denmark.


TVoR





By the way, Fouts it's about time you guys got of your a$$es and put out a stable OS for a change. That nonsense with choking on NAND was inexcusable. Was that your responsibility? ;-O No wonder Hackborn called you a moron. ;-O


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
fishtastic @ 8/7/2005 8:15:22 PM # Q
PenguinPowered said

"Palm's a niche player. It's not a mass producer. It's not positioned to compete with the mass producers. Either it finds a way to keep its niche fresh or it falls on its face. Switching from PDAs to high end PDA phones was a niche freshener. Entering the mass phone market is a suicide play. Boutique brands should not try to get into commodity markets.

Stop confusing what you want with what works for the business."


Dude, Palm has become a 'niche player', it didn't start out that way. It has realised that PDA/phones are the future of the higher-end market. Low price PDAs are having their dinner eaten by mobile phones. Only place left is going to be phones.

For a company like Palm a niche is the end of the line, starting with a majority of the market and gradually lossing market share to others. Palm has a serious problem, people expect more than a PIM on their PDA, they want to do multimedia stuff. They also don't want that doc file they had to become a pdb in their PDA.

If they are going to survive they need a proper OS, they ain't got one at the moment. PalmOne are going to have a plan B, just in case PalmSource doesn't wake up soon.

What we have here is very much like Apple and PPC, they had MacOS on intel as a backup for a long time, and went intel when they found that they couldn't get competitive PPC CPUs. PalmOne doesn't have a 21st century OS for their hardware, if PalmSource can't supply one then they will get one that is.

The problem for PalmOne is that Windows Mobile has lots of licencees, many with hardware that is better than the Treo range. They will have to improve their game to survive and there has been little evidence of that over the last 5 years.

Fish



RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 9:09:10 PM # Q
> I understand Jeff is stepping back commentating on the POS market. Svrontis, I think there's a job opening here.

This is so typical of you Whiners. You don't mind dishing out the criticism of Palm. But when anyone has the temerity to refer to the glaring shortcomings of your precious WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever devices, you through a little tantrum.

Two words come to mind - GLASS JAW.

By a Palm enthusiast - and unapologetically so.

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 9:15:56 PM # Q
> svrontis, you are being ridiculous. The fact is that there is many basic things that POS devices CANT do, which you cant fix for love or money. Show me where to buy the PDF viewer? Show me where to buy the WIFI card for the Treo? Where's Skype?

Yes, Surur, whatever Ed Hansberry says must be right. (NOT)

But, then again, what is more basic than opening a Word document (without destroying formatting)? Or how about quickly setting up an appointment (with an alarm that works)?

The problem is that WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever is so weak that it can't even do the basic stuff properly.

What do you expect? M$ took an obselete desktop OS and hacked it to run on handhelds 5 or 6 years ago. Since then the 'development' has consisted of nothing more than tooling around with the icons and eyecandy. Of course, the M$ marketing guys will change the name every few years, change the color scheme and tell us that this means 'advancing the platform', etc, etc.

Then the marketing guys try to cover up the anemic performance of WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever by constantly telling us that 'you can do more'.

Perhaps they should fix the basic problems first before boring us all with the 'you can do more' garbage.

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 9:50:38 PM # Q
> No problem VOR. I just hate apologist arguments that try to
> hide behind technical reasons (e.g. "Moore's law says that if
> you want a smart phone the size of a current generation
> feature phone at a price comparable to a current priced
> feature phone, you'll have to be patient."). These are easily
> proven wrong.

I look forward to your attempt to prove my comment wrong. I suspect the reason you think you have when you haven't is that we have different definitions of 'smart phone'. Yours appears to be 'can run out-of-date m$ OSes'. I freely concede that for such a weak definition of smart phone, the orange phone fills the bill. I had thought that you were agitating for an advanced smart phone, which is why I pointed out several ways in which the Orange phone fails to fit that bill.

Get back to me when it has a decent digital camera rather than a lame vga camera, a decent amount of storage rather than 64mb, availability outside of a limited part of Europe, a keyboard rather than a keypad, et cetera.

We'll see how many generations of Moore's law later we'll be.


Chief Senior Apologist Svrontis
sr4 @ 8/7/2005 9:59:59 PM # Q
svrontis, if all you are going to do is answer fact with FUD, there is not much point in talking to you.

Surur

Astroturfing fantasies
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 10:04:28 PM # Q
> By the way, if you're going to try and defend your employer,
> at least have the cojones to publicly admit who you are like
> how Dianne Hackborn does whenever she posts

You have me confused with someone else. I haven't defended anyone here. Merely pointed out some fallacies, and made some observations.

> Switching to smartphones was a "niche fresher"? [...]
> Switching was a "Hail Mary" pass by a desperate company [...]

You speculate on why it was motivated. I speak of what it accomplished. These are not contradictory statements.

> [..] Had (the equally-desperate) Handspring not been able to
> hand Palm the giftwrapped, brilliantly designed Treo 600,
> Palm would probably have been TOAST by now.

Such is my reading of the tea leafs, also.

> Palm was an 800 pound gorilla as recently as 4 years ago.

No. Palm was a medium sized fish in a tiny pond. The pond was drying up. They tried the walking catfish stunt and it put them in another pond. One in which there are many much larger fish.

> If Palm wants a $199 SE T630-like PalmOS phone, all (well,
> almost all) they have to do is tell the contract
> manufacturers what want and then sit back and wait for
> delivery.

In this world the only one that has ever worked for is Michael Dell. But then his value add would only work for one player in one rather unusual market. It wouldn't work in a cutthroat commodity market like telephony.

> So you think Palm's a "boutique brand" that is above getting
> itself dirty with those "commodity" phones for the unwashed
> masses?

Nope. I see Palm as a boutique brand that couldn't survive in a commodity market. Being a boutique brand carries its own set of risks, but what you fail to understand is that its suicide for a boutique brand to try to become a comodity brand.

> ALL phones are going to be commodity items faster than you
> can say "WinMob Treo".

That's not how the phone market is working out.

> I'm a power user that is probably a couple standard
> deviations to the right on the power user curve and I
> understand the average user needs things as simple as
> possible.

And yet, you don't get what the tiering in the cell phone market is. There will come a time when that market is homogoneous enough to be a completely commodity market, but even then, there will be niches and niche players. Even the PC market hasn't quite reached the point of being a completely commodity market, although you have to pay attention to see the niches.

> But the average user is not stupid, so unless Palm starts
> offering up competetive product, as soon as other less
> expensive alternatives start arriving on the scene, Palm can
> kiss its market share goodbye.

Right. And Lear needs to get out of executive jets and compete head to head with Boeing and Airbus in the mainstream passenger jet market. Ferrarri should produce a family SUV. DeBeers should sell opals and rubies.

Some companies should be in the head-to-head commodity business. None of the above should. Neither should Palm.

>> PalmSource won't be cancelling Linux next year. They don't
>> have the resources to switch horses again. Either this one
>> gets them across the river or they disappear.

> Funny, that's what PalmSource employees would have said about
> Cobalt this time last year. [...]

Ah. You still have this confused idea that PalmSource cancelled Cobalt. You really need to get better sources at PalmSource.

Also, apparently, you don't get the point I was making, so I'll slow it down for you: There ain't any more chances left for PalmSource. Either they make the Linux thing work, or they go out of business. So no, they won't be cancelling Linux. They'll either finish and ship, at which point the market will decide if they did the job, or they won't finish, but they won't 'cancel', they'll just close up shop.

> Anyway, Palm will absorb PalmSource soon enough.

Again with that nebulous "soon". PalmSource has taken steps, such as buying CMS, that pretty much guarentee that Palm won't find them worth absorbing. Either they make it work or they go down and all Palm absorbs will be the assets they obtain in the fire sale.

> You must be the queen over at Slashdot.

Never posted there. Seems more your type of site than mine.

> Their supremely buggy first attempt to redefine the market
> (LifeDrive) was a halfhearted effort.

I don't know what LifeDrive was, but it sure didn't redefine any markets.

> Palm needs to finally stop scrimping pennies on critical
>areas (like memory), stop trying to be too clever for their
> own good, and also stop putting out buggy software.

The only way companies ever stop putting out buggy software is by going out of business. It's all buggy.

> Palm should not care about the US not being a market for
> innovative cellphones.

That's right.

> They should be more concerned with ways to sell as MANY
> phones in as MANY markets as they can. Period.

That's also right. Too bad it doesn't imply what you think it does.

> By the way, it's about time you guys got of your a$$es
> and put out a stable OS for a change.

You've got me confused with someone else. I've been putting out stable OSes since 1975.

> That nonsense with choking on NAND was inexcusable. Was that
> your responsibility?

You definitely have me confused with someone else. If my ancient memory serves me correctly, I was busily designing CPU architectures for network protocol accelerators at the that time. I was certainly nowhere near PalmSource.

You do have me confused with someone else. The retired football quarterback, perhaps?


RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
PenguinPowered @ 8/7/2005 10:50:46 PM # Q
> Dude, Palm has become a 'niche player', it didn't start out
> that way.

Yup

> It has realised that PDA/phones are the future of the higher-
> end market. Low price PDAs are having their dinner eaten by
> mobile phones. Only place left is going to be phones.

Yup.

> For a company like Palm a niche is the end of the line,
> starting with a majority of the market and gradually lossing
> market share to others.

Maybe. It's certainly how Intel has slowly killed off the other players in the CPU market place. But most industries have niche players that manage to do well.

> If they are going to survive they need a proper OS, they
> ain't got one at the moment. PalmOne are going to have a plan
> B, just in case PalmSource doesn't wake up soon.

If I were a Palm stockholder, I would certainly hope so.

But 'resell WinMobo on commodity hardware built by a third party' isn't a plan, it's a formula for suicide.


RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 11:01:04 PM # Q
> svrontis, if all you are going to do is answer fact with FUD, there is not much point in talking to you.

Which fact is it that you find inconvenient? Is it for instance the fact that setting up a mere appointment on a WinMob device is much more cumbersone than on a palmpilot? Or is it the fact that you can never be sure whether an alarm will work on a WinMob?

Anyway, I enjoy reading your cheerleading posts over at pocketpcthoughts.com. They are always amusing (if a little naive). By the way, congratulations on your having achieved the exalted status of 'Pocket PC Intellectual' over on the ppcthoughts.com forums. (Ed Hansberry must be very proud of you.)

As for FUD, well, I guess that's what I'd call all the negative comments you make here at PIC. Why else would a 'Pocket PC Intellectual' like yourself demean himself by posting at a Palm enthusiast website?

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
AdamaDBrown @ 8/8/2005 12:09:18 AM # Q
But, then again, what is more basic than opening a Word document (without destroying formatting)? Or how about quickly setting up an appointment (with an alarm that works)?

The alarm problem was fixed a year and a half ago. The Word issue is fixed in WM5. Pointing out problems with PocketPC is fine, but you seem unable to look at PalmOS the same way. I'm sure you'll respond with some devastatingly boring comment about how long it took to get full Word compatibility, never noting the irony of how long we've waited for multitasking on Palm.

Get back to me when it has a decent digital camera rather than a lame vga camera, a decent amount of storage rather than 64mb, availability outside of a limited part of Europe, a keyboard rather than a keypad, et cetera.

Um, the current flagship smartphone from Palm has less than half as much memory, a lame VGA camera, and on a small phone a number pad is more elegant than a keyboard. Do you even think before you talk? You seem to be arguing that Palm has higher system requirements than Windows, although other times you're arguing that Windows is a resource hog. Make up your mind. Personally, I think that if they could stuff a touchscreen into that Orange smartphone, it would make an admirable Palm OS phone.

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
PenguinPowered @ 8/8/2005 12:26:06 AM # Q
> Um, the current flagship smartphone from Palm has less than
> half as much memory, a lame VGA camera, and on a small phone
> a number pad is more elegant than a keyboard.

I thought we were discussing the future of smartphones, not what people are doing wrong now.

> You seem to be arguing that Palm has higher system
> requirements than Windows, although other times you're
> arguing that Windows is a resource hog.

I've never argued either way. That's a problem with web boards. It's too easy to conflate two separate discussions.

I've argued that Palm should stay out of the feature phone business. Reasons are business related. It'd be like Lamborghini trying to compete with GM in the SUV business, or Cessna trying to compete with Canadair in the regional jet business.

I've argued that smartphones that satisfy a certain wishlist are several moore's-law generations away. Reasons are technical. Two hundred bucks is a tough BOM to hit with touchscreens, decent cameras, and enough memory to use them. And the sort of BOM you would hit leaves you with a price higher than the carriers care to subsidize. My best swag is that the sweet point for such a phone is three, possibly four more generations, which, in Moore's law terms is 4.5 to 6 years.

Someone could do a poor-man's POS phone around a design like the Orange phone. It'd be difficult to distinguish from anybody's low end feature phone, except it'd have a lot of extra overhead to accomodate POS features it wouldn't use.

> Make up your mind. Personally, I think that if they could
> stuff a touchscreen into that Orange smartphone, it would
> make an admirable Palm OS phone.

care to speculate why low end feature phones don't have touch screens, and how that relates to moore's law?


RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
svrontis @ 8/8/2005 12:27:38 AM # Q
> The alarm problem was fixed a year and a half ago. The Word issue is fixed in WM5. Pointing out problems with PocketPC is fine, but you seem unable to look at PalmOS the same way. I'm sure you'll respond with some devastatingly boring comment about how long it took to get full Word compatibility, never noting the irony of how long we've waited for multitasking on Palm.

You have misunderstood. I'm simply trying to respond to the M$ sponsored Whiners by noting that their own house is not in order. I think palmpilots are good, but they are not perfect - there is always room for improvement. I apologise if you find my comments boring. Then again, I'm sure you also find it tiresome to read all the negative comments posted here by the Whiners.

PenguinPowered = PalmSource employee
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/8/2005 12:39:54 AM # Q
I'm all for people from all biases posting here (even you too, Surur!) but there should be a bacic ground rules that posters state who they are if there's a potential conflict of interest.

Dianne Hackborn, Michael Mace, Ben Combee etc. always were up front with who they are. Even apologists like David Beers says who he is. Ska/Hoplites/BlueAnon was too silly to take seriously. It's one thing for those of us with no hidden agendas or financial interests to post anonymously, but it's entirely another matter for a Palm/PalmSource/Microsoft employee to do the same. There's something... sleazy... about Astroturfing for your employer, and I hope this isn't the start of a new trend for PalmSource + Palm now that things aren't going so well. Microsoft has long been the master of this type of deception, but I would lose respect for ANY company that stoops to their level.

Mr. Fouts, I think you need to include your position in your signature and formally apologize to all readers at Palminfocenter for your subterfuge.




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
PenguinPowered @ 8/8/2005 1:54:04 AM # Q
Everyone has a bias. Yours has prevented you on several occassions today from understanding what I've written because you keep trying to make it fit your model of a PalmSource employee.

But I do enjoy the irony, prevelant on the intar-web, of people posting under aliases being the first to demand that others don't.

Thanks again for bringing humor to my day.

RE: Chief Senior Apologist?
mikecane @ 8/8/2005 10:33:39 AM # Q
>>>but there should be a bacic ground rules that posters state who they are if there's a potential conflict of interest.

Look at this piece of crap dictating terms to others. Drop dead already.

RE: PenguinPowered = PalmSource employee
twrock @ 8/8/2005 11:24:00 AM # Q
TVOR, please, you must stop. I am in sheer agony from the pain of laughing at the absurdity of that post. Did you even consider just how silly that was going to sound coming from you?

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Reply to this comment

So what? There's a Loox running Cobalt too.

twrock @ 8/7/2005 8:04:33 PM # Q
http://rapidshare.de/files/3746981/looxos6_001.avi.html
(Click on the "Free" download button at the bottom of the screen, wait a few second, and then click the looxos6_001.avi file link. Enjoy.)
LOL

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
RE: So what? There's a Loox running Cobalt too.
sr4 @ 8/7/2005 8:52:48 PM # Q
Tam Hanna said
BTW, a good friend of mine has created a hoax video of his Loox running Cobalt in just a few minutes by displaying a sequence of screenshots. I can upload it for you people

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93691&page=3&pp=15&highlight=fake+video

Can we stop this foolishness now?

BTW: The Treo ALWAYS has a white border on screen. There is no white border in the WM video or screen shots.

Surur

RE: So what? There's a Loox running Cobalt too.
sr5 @ 8/8/2005 9:36:48 AM # Q
Ah c'mon Surur. You couldn't even play along for a whole hour. What a dork! It's guys like you who got beat up in junior high school for ruining all the good pranks. Sheesh.

Just for the record, I like Palms. I hang out at Palm sites. I don't hang out at PPC sites. I don't post at PPC sites. So what's up with you?

(You know, I really need to find a good way to get voice "tone" into these posts. Some people have a heck of a time figuring out if I'm kidding or not. So for future reference, if I'm addressing a PPC weenie who can't let a joke ride for more than an hour, and it doesn't seem like I'm very pleased, well then just conclude whatever you want.)

RE: So what? There's a Loox running Cobalt too.
sr4 @ 8/8/2005 1:25:37 PM # Q
Wow! Ive got a stalker! Am I a celebrity now?

Surur

RE: So what? There's a Loox running Cobalt too.
twrock @ 8/8/2005 7:25:11 PM # Q
A stalker? LOL Could I have made it any more obvious, killjoy?

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Reply to this comment

Hoax

neilmitchell @ 8/8/2005 1:40:29 AM # Q
I have to laugh and how many of you take this seriously. Someone has having fun creating this video. Enjoy the false ride guys. :-)

Neil

Atari-Portolio > HP95LX > HP100LX > HP300LX > HP320LX > Nino300 > Nino500 > HP620LX > Jornada680 > PalmV > Vx > m505 > T|T > T615C > T|T3 > T|E2 > T|T3 > LifeDrive

------------------
Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm. - Sir Winston Churchill

Each success only buys an admission ticket to a more difficult problem - Henry Kissinger
------------------

Reply to this comment

Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!

VampireLestat @ 8/8/2005 7:25:15 PM # Q
Palm Inc. possible move to WM. An urgent call to action for all Palm OS fans.

After reflexion, I have come to a unique conclusion. PalmSource should own the Palm Inc. name and Palm Inc. should be renamed to anything else other than Palm Inc.

If Palm Inc. wants to be a hardware maker without OS allegiance à la HP or Dell, it should rename its company to something new and give the name back to PalmSource, who could then play the same role as Microsoft and protect the Palm and Palm OS branding.

If Palm Inc. sells a Treo 670 with WM, it's like Microsoft selling a Palm OS device or making its own distribution of Linux. Pepsi does not sell Coke. Toyota does not sell GM. A company is normally supposed to protect its brand name and the uniqueness of their product.

If Palm Inc. wants to keep the name Palm Inc., they should not sell anything other than Palm OS devices. Failure to respect this logic will ultimately result in the undermining of the Palm OS platform and the destruction of Palm OS; which in turn, will make Palm Inc. lose considerable weight as a company by forcing them to share a small part of the WM pie instead of owning almost all of the Palm OS pie.

Ed Colligan is about to make the blunder of his career if he launches the Treo 670 with WM.

I invite all Palm fans to write a short letter to Palm's corporate headquarters to express your concern with Palm Inc's apparant move to Windows Mobile on the Treo 670. At the very least, we can recommend that they not put the Palm Inc. or Treo logos on any device using Windows Mobile. But that is what Palm's wants isn't it? To piggyback on the awareness of the Palm/Treo name...

Write to:

Corporate Headquarters
Attn: Ed Colligan
Palm, Inc.
950 W. Maude Ave.
Sunnyvale, CA 94085

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
Gekko @ 8/8/2005 8:10:55 PM # Q

Ah, the young and naive never learn.



RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
just_little_me @ 8/8/2005 8:45:27 PM # Q
98% of Joe Sixpacks, if asked, would reply that "Palm" made hardware. No-one cares or knows who Palmsource are. FWIW Palmsource did customer interviews asking them this exact question. The overwhelming response was that Palm is hardware. Hence the decision to sell the brand to palmOne. Good choice IMHO.

Please post the content of your letter to Ed here also...


JLM.

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
VampireLestat @ 8/8/2005 9:00:37 PM # Q
The Palm Inc. PalmSource relationship is difficult to understand. Does Palm Inc. even want Palm Linux? Are they the ones who pushed for it? Did PalmSource lock down all development on products other than solely Palm Linux for mobile phones because they learned that Palm Inc. was about to use WM and they wanted to find a safe haven in the big Chinese market with PoL? Is Palm Inc. and PalmSource fighting?

All this uncertainty is discouraging developers and it HAS TO STOP!
We need some sort of official statement from Palm Inc. or PalmSource regarding all these matters. What the HELL should developers be focusing on right now? Garnet? Cobalt? Linux?



RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
PenguinPowered @ 8/8/2005 9:13:53 PM # Q
I believe that PalmSource made an official statement at the developer's conference in May, and nothing has changed. If my aging memory serves me correctly, to a developer, the answer is "develop for the Cobalt interfaces, they'll be the same under Linux".



RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
hkklife @ 8/8/2005 9:34:14 PM # Q
Palm/Palmsource doesn't CARE what the developers think at this point. There are "thousands" of existing legacy apps already out there and most of 'em run in some form or another under FrankenGarnet. Even if a large chunk of them don't make the migration to Cobalt, that's still "thousands" remaining to tout!

All that matters now are stock prices, bulk carrier purchases of Treos, and, as always, how many Zires & T|Es Joe six-pack buys at retail.

Also, PalmSource had no choice but to sell the "Palm" name to PalmOne for some much needed cash to keep the boat afloat until the inevitable acquisition is made...PalmSource shouldn't be lambasted for selling a limb for $30 mil----after all, you only need ONE arm, right? Instead PalmOne should be flogged for spending so much on a name that they should NEVER have let get away in the first place and then spinning their wheels & burning through time & $ with a new logo/branding when they should be putting all of their eggs into shoring up their quality and doing something--anything--to get FrankenGarnet off their devices and replace it with something more robust.

Presenting the Windows Mobile Treo. Isn't she beautiful?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/8/2005 10:08:06 PM # Q
If Palm Inc. sells a Treo 670 with WM, it's like Microsoft selling a Palm OS device or making its own distribution of Linux. Pepsi does not sell Coke. Toyota does not sell GM. A company is normally supposed to protect its brand name and the uniqueness of their product.

I'm guessing you're a 15 or 16 year old kid living in an Eastern Bloc European country. In the real, world things aren't black and white like you teenagers seem to think. Companies do whatever they believe will bring in profits. Does Microsoft sell apps for MacOS? Did GM not sell a rebadged Toyota Corolla (Chevrolet Prizm)? Did Honda not sell a rebadged Isuzu SUV (Honda Passport)? Aren't the Totota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe essentially the same car? These products don't seem to have caused any problems for the companies in question. As long as new products don't cause consumers to revolt (as was the case in "New Coke") or if the company knows the influx in new customers will surpass the losses from alienated customers (as will be the case for WinMob Treos), the change can be worth it.

And for those that still are saying the world is flat (i.e. WinMob Treos aren't coming), take a look at these photos:

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000050053387/


PalmOS as we know it is officially DEAD. The only way they could have survived was if they had delivered a STABLE PalmLinux in 2004. If I was PalmSource, I'd try to get an injunction against StyleTap before EVERY WinMob user in the world finds out that it will run their PalmOS apps on Windows Mobile hardware.

www.styletap.com


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
VampireLestat @ 8/8/2005 11:02:01 PM # Q
Dear Triumph,

I feel that my analogies are closer to reality than yours.

I understand that Palm's goal is and should be to make profits. However, the argument I put forth earlier is that by selling a Treo 670, they risk giving an extra incentive to developers to abandon Palm OS and migrate to WM. With no good programs, consumers will abandon Palm OS and Palm Inc. will be left with a PPC market that it has to share with HP, Dell, Toshiba, ASUS, Fujitsu and the myriad of smartphone makers; as opposed to the near monopoly they have now with millions of loyal Palm OS fans. How does that make any economic sense? Palm Inc. appears willing to bet that Palm OS users will migrate en masse to the Treo 670 with WM. I estimate that will not occur and Palm Inc. will lose it's gamble.

I will continue to purchase devices based on what meets my needs. However, if Palm Inc. goes ahead with the Treo 670, I will remind myself to give my first purchase consideration to LG and others. And I will stop buying replacement parts and accessories from Palm Inc. and I will turn to their accessory competitors instead for my needs.

Or, I could simply move to PPC like others, abandon all efforts to program for Palm OS, leave the Palm community behind and when comes time to purchase any new PPC, give first consideration to HP, Dell and others before Palm Inc. Why? Because I am angry and I will remember them as being unreliable losers who don't have the guts to stand behind their product and who contributed to the demize of a great OS that millions of people have put their money and trust in (all their data is in Palm Desktop, developers spents years of their lives learning Palm OS programming, etc).

Finally, I tried StyleTap on my hx2750 and it does not offer the same user friendly experience as on an original Palm. My T5 is far more fun to use than StyleTap.

Dead Cobalt + Dying Garnet + VaporLinux = WinMob Treo!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/8/2005 11:25:51 PM # Q
I feel that my analogies are closer to reality than yours.

Alucard, you need to grow up and accept that in business there is NO loyalty to anyone or anything but the allmighty dollar. Fanboys/girls like you (and me) buy devices one at a time. Palm would be doing itself a disservice by just continuing to cater to a shrinking pool of PalmOS fans when a huge untapped market is sitting right next door.

Read my post again. I said, "As long as new products don't cause consumers to revolt (as was the case in "New Coke") or if the company knows the influx in new customers will surpass the losses from alienated customers (as will be the case for WinMob Treos), the change can be worth it.

You sound like a petulant, alienated customer. But you represent merely ONE device sale. What if switching to WinMob Treos lands Palm a few big contracts with some Fortune 500 companies for say, 1000 phones each. Suddenly your "voice in the wind" seems meaningless, doesn't it? Money talks.

I understand that Palm's goal is and should be to make profits. However, the argument I put forth earlier is that by selling a Treo 670, they risk giving an extra incentive to developers to abandon Palm OS and migrate to WM. With no good programs, consumers will abandon Palm OS and Palm Inc. will be left with a PPC market that it has to share with HP, Dell, Toshiba, ASUS, Fujitsu and the myriad of smartphone makers; as opposed to the near monopoly they have now with millions of loyal Palm OS fans. How does that make any economic sense? Palm Inc. appears willing to bet that Palm OS users will migrate en masse to the Treo 670 with WM. I estimate that will not occur and Palm Inc. will lose it's gamble.

You still don't quite get it. Developers have ALREADY been alienated by Palm and PalmSource. Most major developers have been offering Windows Mobile versions of their software for years. Just ask DateBk5 developer CES Dewar what he feels about Palm/PalmSource's developer support. It ain't pretty. Only thing is this: PALM HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO OFFER WINMOB TREOS. As it stands, PalmOS 5 is an overextended KludgeOS held together with duct tape, Band Aids, safety pins and chewing gum. Cobalt is a slow, buggy unproven beta OS with no associated apps or developer support. And PalmLinux is VAPORWARE that could never realistically ship before 2007. PalmSource is even now desperately looking to hire bodies to get PalmLinux up and running! http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8002#110433

WinMob Treos were a necessity for Palm.

I will continue to purchase devices based on what meets my needs. However, if Palm Inc. goes ahead with the Treo 670, I will remind myself to give my first purchase consideration to LG and others. And I will stop buying replacement parts and accessories from Palm Inc. and I will turn to their accessory competitors instead for my needs.

LG will probably never ship a phone before you graduate from high school. Go ahead and pout, kick, scream, hold your breath and throw a tantrum. Palm doesn't care - your voice represents only a single sale.

Sorry, Bubba.




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
hkklife @ 8/8/2005 11:55:57 PM # Q
Look at the hack job Saab has been doing lately. The 9-2x is a rebadged WRX with a nicer interior and the 9-7X is simply the GM corporate Trailblazer/Envoy with an improver suspension and some sleeker sheetmetal. The Saab purists are unhappy (and still driving their 20 year old 900s) but Saab sales are up quite a bit, at least domestically. You can thank the GM employee pricing too, of course.

To not go off topic, I still maintain that anything WinMob-powered will be the ruination of Palm/PalmSource in the long run but in the SHORT TERM, Palm is going to sell oodles of WinTreos in '06 just like GM's doing now with their lineup of watered down Saabs. The longtime Palm faithful such as Voice, myself and plenty of others will be left to fend for ourselves with stockpiled old units and/or whatever legacy FrankenGarnet models Palm leaves in prouction.

By the time those nifty Sprint 2-year contract signed in spring '06 to get a cheaper Treo 670 have expired, everyone will have moved on to something else (next-gen Blackberry, something by Samsung etc). Then the Palm platform as we've come to know it will be in its final stages of dissolution amidst a flurry of lawsuits, cries of panic from the user base, and IP squabbling.

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
cervezas @ 8/9/2005 12:35:09 AM # Q
What the HELL should developers be focusing on right now? Garnet? Cobalt? Linux?

There's nothing unclear about PalmSource's message on this. The answer is Cobalt. Palm OS for Linux *is* Cobalt as far as almost any Palm OS developer should care. They are very clear on this: all of the Cobalt API is there and Cobalt apps will migrate to Palm OS for Linux with a simple recompile. They explained that the Linux demo at DevCon was running Cobalt PIM apps that had not had a single line of code changed. You are welcome to disbelieve, but you can't say they haven't been clear.

Also, the idea that PalmSource has abandoned Cobalt is mostly a misunderstanding of what Cobalt is. They've stopped developing their proprietary Cobalt kernel and are replacing it with a Linux kernel, yes. But the kernel is not the Palm OS. Everything that Palm users care about is in the middleware, which is being carried over from Cobalt and developed just as it was before.

I don't want to diminish Linux here: it's an awesome, modern OS kernel that is as powerful as Windows or Symbian and much more flexible. It should enable the Palm OS middleware and app stack to run smoothly and with stability. But it's not the Palm OS itself. The transition to Linux (if successful) is a big deal for PalmSource engineers, a huge deal for phone vendors and operators, but it's not a huge deal for developers or users except to the extent that "success" means there would be a wider range of cooler devices available that run Palm OS.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/9/2005 12:58:08 AM # Q
Look at the hack job Saab has been doing lately. The 9-2x is a rebadged WRX with a nicer interior and the 9-7X is simply the GM corporate Trailblazer/Envoy with an improver suspension and some sleeker sheetmetal. The Saab purists are unhappy (and still driving their 20 year old 900s) but Saab sales are up quite a bit, at least domestically. You can thank the GM employee pricing too, of course.

To not go off topic, I still maintain that anything WinMob-powered will be the ruination of Palm/PalmSource in the long run but in the SHORT TERM, Palm is going to sell oodles of WinTreos in '06 just like GM's doing now with their lineup of watered down Saabs. The longtime Palm faithful such as Voice, myself and plenty of others will be left to fend for ourselves with stockpiled old units and/or whatever legacy FrankenGarnet models Palm leaves in prouction.

By the time those nifty Sprint 2-year contract signed in spring '06 to get a cheaper Treo 670 have expired, everyone will have moved on to something else (next-gen Blackberry, something by Samsung etc). Then the Palm platform as we've come to know it will be in its final stages of dissolution amidst a flurry of lawsuits, cries of panic from the user base, and IP squabbling.

Well said, hkklife.

Funny how you mentioned Saab - I was just talking to a friend about their new lineup a couple days ago. I'm a longtime Saab aficionado and for me the company died when the 900 was killed off. Rebranded/restyled Opels and Subarus just don't cut it for those of us who appreciated the iconoclasm of The Old Saab. In the same vein, I hope the hideous BMWs designed by that pathetic hack, Chris "New Coke" Bangle blow up in BMW's face. The company deserves to go bankrupt for spewing out crap like the Z4 and the 7 Series.

After thinking about things a little more, I have to admit I owe VampireLestat an apology - I'm just as guilty of throwing silly tantrums as he is. I've always liked the Porsche 911 and had promised myself "Someday...". Then a couple years ago, Porsche rebadged the Volkswagen Touareg - a hideous, bloated SUV - added a Porsche engine, and doubled the price. A Porsche/VW SUV? Get serious. The Porsche Cayenne is probably the most cynical vehicle released since the all-time champ: the despicable Cadillac Cimarron (née Chevrolet Citation).

My reaction: "Porsche selling a SUV? W T F??? Are they so desperate for money that they'll jump on any bandwagon??? Pathetic! I'll never buy ANYTHING from Porsche!" Then I start seeing dozens of Abominable Cayennes puttering around the Bay Area with Soccer Moms driving. Then I remember: Porsche doesn't care if it's selling 911s to SCCA racers or Cayennes to Soccer Moms. Profit is profit. But since I still feel "personally wronged" ;-O by their sellout and (on principle) would never buy a Porsche in the future. Rational decision? Nope. Does it hurt Porsche? Nope. Do they care about my N = 1 boycott? Nope. But I'm not budging!

So stick to your guns, Lestat. Vote with your wallet and let everyone know if you'e pi$$ed off. The world needs another Angry Young Vamp.

hkklife: Palm is going down the drain. Cashing in while they still have a pulse is a good idea. Why keep propping up PalmOS when it won't have any significant market share in 2 or 3 years. It's obvious that Palm has made the decision to cut off a diseased limb to prevent blood poisoning. Wise strategy.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
legodude522 @ 8/9/2005 1:48:55 AM # Q
Video is FAKE! Those are just screenshots in a slideshow. Observe how the buttons tapped aren't depressed. Its a slideshow with screenshots.

FAKE!

Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present.

Flash 8 for PPC- Another nail in the coffin?
sr4 @ 8/9/2005 3:30:00 AM # Q
http://www.macromedia.com/mobile/special/flashpro8_features/

"Whether you’re an experienced Flash developer interested in creating mobile content, someone who’s just starting out or a mobile developer who’s never used Flash, Flash Professional 8 is packed with many new features to assist you when creating mobile content.

Device Settings
Flash Professional 8 will ship with nearly 90 mobile device profiles, and we will continue to update profiles with every new device that supports Flash Lite. Items that are specific to individual devices, such as screen size, available memory, navigation models, and button configurations will be simulated exactly as they work on all supported phones."
http://www.macromedia.com/mobile/manufacturers/

Note - Symbian and PocketPC devices, but NO POS at all. 90 devices, but no Treo.

So no PDF, No flash, no directX. A slow death by a 1000 cuts. The only thing saving Palm now is that most POS users do not know these things are available on the WM side.

Surur

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
PenguinPowered @ 8/9/2005 3:53:53 AM # Q
I am reminded, in this thread, about all the clamor and dire predictions of the death of IBM. In the 60s.

In the 70s.

In the 80s.

In the 90s.

Can Palm succede with the play they're making now? Possible. Risky. But anyone who claims certainty at this point simply doesn't understand how the phone market is evolving. I wonder how many of them predicted that Cisco would consider buying Nokia or that LG would start producing phones under its own label before those things happened.

Can PalmOne? Possible. Riskier. But if they do, it will be in ways that surprise the pundits, who don't seem to have understood many of the announcements made over the past several months. And if not, insert Evil Knievel quote here.


PenguinPowered will explain the Good News to us.
sr4 @ 8/9/2005 5:37:01 AM # Q
PenguinPowered, as you claim insight into developments that passed us by, how do you see the playbook for the next two years playing out for POS (Not Palm the company, especially iof they are just going to be another WM OEM).

What developments will occur that will make Palm OS regain the interests of developers and companies such as Macromedia and Skype. As Palm users said 5 years ago, its all about the applications.

Which "announcements over the past several months" have we misinterpreted? Was it Tapwave going bankrupt, or Cobalt development being shelved, or Palm buying back the Palm name so it could be in safer hands than PalmSource, and so they can do with it what they want (e.g. make a Palm Powered WM Treo)?

We await your profound insight.

Surur

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
PenguinPowered @ 8/9/2005 6:10:19 AM # Q
Start by realizing that Cobalt wasn't shelved.

Then try to understand that those open reqs mean that PSRC is bringing in outside talent, some of which, I suspect, is already on board and shaking things up.

Finally contemplate how CMS might be leveraged to advantage. They were worth their purchase price, if PalmSource can figure out how to utilize them.

Will it work? Dunno. My crystal ball is hazy.

It's easy to spin the last six month's announcements badly, and if PalmSource fails what it's attempting, that's how it'll go down in the history books.

But I will predict a couple of things:

Palm's not dumb enough to try to become a commodity reseller. They know that's not their skill set. They may be too dumb to capitalize on what they do know, but if they fail, it won't be by getting into bed will bill.

PalmSource has the resources to get to the end of '07. Don't look for them to fail before then. If they do fail, don't expect Palm to buy them back. Palm will be smart enough to wait and pick up the assets in the bankruptcy. Expect a Cobolt phone. GSPDA has preannounced and there's no reason to think they won't deliver, although maybe only in Asia. Expect a real PalmLinux device before the end of '07, at least one that's in the hands of PalmSource's customers.

Nothing above here that you couldn't figure out just by reading announcements, going to the DevCon, and listening to the analysts's call the day of the layoff.

Meanwhile, wait for Nokia to put a GSM stack in the 770. If they make that work at a good price point, you can pretty much kiss all the phone-os vendors except m$ goodbye. If they don't try, you can pretty much expect them to do for Cisco what Palm did for US Robotics.



RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
sr4 @ 8/9/2005 7:29:29 AM # Q

As you said, PSRC's game plan is well known. The problem is, even if they execute perfectly, they will end up just being another Linux phone vendor with a pretty skin, plus two years behind the competition. If they could not find a market for Cobalt, why would Palmix be any more popular? There's a pile of competition out there.

http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4669946597.html

Surur

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
twrock @ 8/9/2005 8:39:18 AM # Q
The only thing saving Palm now is that most POS users do not know these things are available on the WM side.

Or maybe some of them do know, but don't care. Not everyone has the same set of "requirements" as you. Not everyone wants the same things you do. It may come as a shock, but not everyone even wants to use the same PDA or OS as you. That's part of what makes the world interesting.

For example, personally, I hate Flash, and I don't really like PDF format either. (And I may be in the tiniest of minorities, but that doesn't bother me a bit.) But I wouldn't presume to suggest everyone else should feel like I do. So if Palms are not for you, wonderful! But I still can't figure out why you keep hanging around anyway.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
sr4 @ 8/9/2005 9:26:41 AM # Q

Its like attending the sinking of the Titanic. Its very interesting. Who would not want to be there (while knowing they wont be going down with the ship)?

Dont you get the feeling that we are coming to the end game? The opening moves are long over, POS is showing its age, and like an aged Deer its now in danger of being culled. (do I get a prize for mixing metaphors?) Like a chess player who knows its at a disadvantage its making desperate moves, but with every round hope is fading. At some point POS will have to concede.

So you see, I do find it very entertaining. Its theatre of the highest order.

Surur

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
twrock @ 8/9/2005 10:08:38 AM # Q
Its like attending the sinking of the Titanic. Its very interesting. Who would not want to be there (while knowing they wont be going down with the ship)?
Actually, I wouldn't want to be there. The tragic loss of life would not be something I would want to witness for entertainment, even if I knew I wouldn't be going down with it.

But, yes, I'm just giving you a hard time. I don't think that is what you meant. (But if it is, then you really are one sick puppy; please seek professional help.)
Dont you get the feeling that we are coming to the end game? The opening moves are long over, POS is showing its age, and like an aged Deer its now in danger of being culled. (do I get a prize for mixing metaphors?) Like a chess player who knows its at a disadvantage its making desperate moves, but with every round hope is fading. At some point POS will have to concede.
That is very possible, and even likely given what you believe you know. But then again, if somehow this turns around, won't it be one great "come-back" story? And if it doesn't, I'm just hoping by then there is another "little start-up" who comes along and offers me a useful product without telling me where I want to go today.
So you see, I do find it very entertaining. Its theatre of the highest order.
So you don't get out much, do you?

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
fishtastic @ 8/9/2005 1:54:41 PM # Q
I can't help feeling that those 'upset' by criticism Palm believe that those critics want Palm to die. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The only reason people post about what they see as lack of strategy/products/direction/information/updates is because they care about Palm and don't want to see it depart and be left with a choice of WinMob or WinMob.

PalmS/PalmO is following the classic downward arc of a company lost. When was the last wow product? What was the last sector leader? [Do I hear you say Treo, well Handspring did a decent but flawed job, and PalmO bought it. When was the last PalmO wow product?]

Two more years with an country bumkin OS that married it's sister. It's a long time. Maybe too long...

Fish

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
legodude522 @ 8/9/2005 1:57:15 PM # Q
http://www.1src.com/headlines/show/001182.html

Sun now embraces the Treo 650.

Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present.

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
PenguinPowered @ 8/9/2005 2:07:37 PM # Q
Why indeed would a PalmOS for Linux phone be more popular than a trolltech/montevista phone?

That's _the_ question. If PalmSource can execute, the answer has to be 'because of the value add that results from the PalmOS feature set'. Either they get that right, or they are out of options.

Being late to the party is no guarentee of losing. Remember beta-max? It was first, and technically superior. VHS won. HP insiders used to joke that "the time for HP to start into a market was when we could see the taillights of the competitors fading into the distance." That worked for them for a long time.

At this point, only time and the market can tell if PalmSource can produce a better-accepted product that the other LinuxPhone players.


RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
PenguinPowered @ 8/9/2005 2:07:37 PM # Q
Why indeed would a PalmOS for Linux phone be more popular than a trolltech/montevista phone?

That's _the_ question. If PalmSource can execute, the answer has to be 'because of the value add that results from the PalmOS feature set'. Either they get that right, or they are out of options.

Being late to the party is no guarentee of losing. Remember beta-max? It was first, and technically superior. VHS won. HP insiders used to joke that "the time for HP to start into a market was when we could see the taillights of the competitors fading into the distance." That worked for them for a long time.

At this point, only time and the market can tell if PalmSource can produce a better-accepted product that the other LinuxPhone players.


RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
sr4 @ 8/9/2005 2:46:34 PM # Q
'because of the value add that results from the PalmOS feature set'

I assume this means the PIM apps. The value of these in two years will be negligible. It will be as quaint as a Commodore 64 emulator.

SanDisk Chooses Treo Smartphones with GoodLink for Select Employees Worldwide
Turns out only 225 were ordered. Will Palm be announcing every individual purchase next?

Next weeks headline:
Legodude chooses Treo Smartphone

Surur

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
neilmitchell @ 8/9/2005 3:44:27 PM # Q
If the following is true...

"After reflexion, I have come to a unique conclusion. PalmSource should own the Palm Inc. name and Palm Inc. should be renamed to anything else other than Palm Inc. If Palm Inc. wants to be a hardware maker without OS allegiance à la HP or Dell, it should rename its company to something new and give the name back to PalmSource, who could then play the same role as Microsoft and protect the Palm and Palm OS branding."

...then PalmSource should also rename themselves to LinuxSource :-)

Atari-Portolio > HP95LX > HP100LX > HP300LX > HP320LX > Nino300 > Nino500 > HP620LX > Jornada680 > PalmV > Vx > m505 > T|T > T615C > T|T3 > T|E2 > T|T3 > LifeDrive

------------------
Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm. - Sir Winston Churchill

Each success only buys an admission ticket to a more difficult problem - Henry Kissinger
------------------

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
cervezas @ 8/9/2005 6:11:40 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
As you said, PSRC's game plan is well known. The problem is, even if they execute perfectly, they will end up just being another Linux phone vendor with a pretty skin, plus two years behind the competition. If they could not find a market for Cobalt, why would Palmix be any more popular? There's a pile of competition out there.

You're right that this is the big question. There is a fair amount of competition out there with MontaVista, TrollTech, and vendors that roll their own. But there's also a lot of demand and the vendors need choices so they can differentiate. Motorola has already been criticized for overusing QTopia. The name of the game is to keep your product from being commoditized and Palm OS is pretty attractive way to differentiate. Hell, it comes out of the box with this huge loyal following.

Mobile Linux is off to an incredible start this year: it's now on 14% of the smartphones sold worldwide, up over 400% from last year. I'm looking for the numbers, but I'm guessing that's already roughly equal to all of the Windows Mobile phones. Other than Nokia and Sony Ericsson (both in bed with Symbian) I can't think of a single major phone vendor that hasn't announced, released, or sold a Linux phone this year: Motorola, Samsung, LG, NEC, Panasonic, Qualcomm, plus a bunch of smaller ones like E28 and Datang. OK, maybe not Siemens. Wait, even Siemens had a Linux concept phone with a built-in TV receiver at CEBit this year.

The big attraction is that Linux doesn't constrain the phone makers the way the proprietary OSes do. They can run it across their whole phone line because its modular (unlike the MS and Symbian monoliths), they can use a wider range of silicon, displays, etc., they can modify it as they please, and as with Linux on the server they get access to fixes and innovations faster than if they have to wait for major releases from Microsoft or Symbian.

For Linux to keep making inroads against MS and Symbian though it needs apps. (Note the failure of Linux to succeed on the desktop without lot of apps.) That's where Palm OS really makes the biggest contribution, IMO. When you take 30,000 existing apps and provide a familiar API for developers to make the kind of new ones that you can only do well with a really modern OS, well, that's a pretty big deal. Call me an apologist, but if they do their job well I wouldn't be surprised if PalmSource turns out to be the hottest girl at the mobile Linux ball in 2006.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
twrock @ 8/9/2005 7:24:32 PM # Q
I can't help feeling that those 'upset' by criticism Palm believe that those critics want Palm to die. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have leveled my share of criticism at Palm/PalmSource. You are correct that I do not want Palm to die. However, it would be an overstatement to say that all of the criticism you see here falls into that camp (yes, I know you didn't necessarily make that statement). This site has attracted a "fair" number of PPC trolls over the years. I believe at least a "handful" of them would want nothing more than to hasten Palm's death and find it to be theatre of the highest order.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
fishtastic @ 8/9/2005 7:57:10 PM # Q
True, there are going to be PPC trolls on the site, it's expected. The shame of it is that the PPC guys have far too much ammo to shoot at Palm. I don't think the 'Zen of Palm' cuts much ice and thats my big problem with Palm at the moment.

I really want to go Palm for my Treo replacement, I've been a Palm user for many years but, where's the new Palm stuff that gives you wood? I just ain't seeing the sexy hardware from Palm. Where is something like the MDA IV, high end and hot? Where is the low end but pretty cool stuff either?

Come on Palm, raise your game.

fish

P.S. Why does the Treo line have a big sticking out aerial? Why? It's so like 1990s.

RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
hkklife @ 8/11/2005 3:19:39 PM # Q
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20050811A5021.html

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/11/htc_palm_treo_670/

Perfect timing....do a few pre-production batches this fall, crank 'em out early '06, have the "official" launch next spring.

So this fall will be the FINAL BATCH OF PALM OS-ONLY units from Palm. Looks like it might be nothing more than a T|X too!

As I figured, they are really going to start pruning the PDA line down to the bare minimum----maybe a Zire and two Tungstens.

Looks like like the POS-exclusive "Palm" lineup is going to go out with a FrankenGarnet whimper.



RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
PenguinPowered @ 8/11/2005 3:31:31 PM # Q
Perhaps. Both of those articles, well actually, that article, since the Register piece is a rehash, are speculative, as neither Palm nor HTC commented.

We shall just have to see how this plays out.


RE: Palm Inc. move to WM. A call to action!
AdamaDBrown @ 8/12/2005 1:25:16 AM # Q
fishtastic said:
I can't help feeling that those 'upset' by criticism Palm believe that those critics want Palm to die. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The only reason people post about what they see as lack of strategy/products/direction/information/updates is because they care about Palm and don't want to see it depart and be left with a choice of WinMob or WinMob.

I was just catching up with this article's comments, and I saw this. Too true. I for one am somewhat harsh on Palm at times, but I certainly don't want to see them go away.

Reply to this comment

Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please

E Ben G @ 8/23/2005 5:03:36 PM # Q
I can't believe the way they censor Surur over at 1SRC. I would be interested to see why. Surur, are you still here?



RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/23/2005 5:16:10 PM # Q
The ironic thing is that most of the things he posts are factual, well-written, honest, and REFERENCED. He's the complete opposite of Jeff Kirvin (one of the censors!).


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
E Ben G @ 8/23/2005 5:31:41 PM # Q
Where is Surur? I know he's been collecting his posts over there for a while...let's see'em.

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
E Ben G @ 8/23/2005 5:33:47 PM # Q
TVoR, where's that link you posted here a while ago where Kirvin apologized to Surur (sort of)? I think they've pulled that discussion off the site, too.

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
sr4 @ 8/23/2005 5:41:23 PM # Q
Hi there.

Thx for the support. I did not really say anything that controversial.

Here it is.
I started by responding to Jeff's article, basically saying that he's exaggerating the attractiveness of PDA's, that they need even better utility, and that they have not caught on yet.

Regarding whether PDA's are dead or not, at this stage its clear that a PDA that does not include a cellular radio has to be compelling in a very different way to succeed (e.g. very cheap, very thin, small, light, huge storage, great screen with very high resolution etc). Not all of them, but at least one or two. It would have to justify why one should go for a two device solution instead of a convergent device.

PDA's have not transitioned yet into being compelling for the general population, but with its move into cellphones hopefully they can justify their existence as communication devices (e.g. great e-mail, great chat) and entertainment devices (e.g good video and sound). For business adoption good manageability, robustness and a killer app like push e-mail is more important.

Its clear that what we call a PDA in 1996 (Palm pilot) will not bear a great resemblance to the PDA of 2006 (like the HTC Universal). The devices need to continue to evolve to justify their place in people's pockets.

Lastly, a traditional dig at POS. The rise in the numbers of PDA's shipped is completely on the back of Win Mobile success. POS shipments have only declined, and Win Mob only risen since 2001. Maybe POS should have learned a few lessons from WM, instead of denigrating it by saying it was just adding bloat and giving people what they did not need (e.g. multi-tasking, multi-media etc). Maybe MS knew better from the start?

I then mentioned pocketpc discribes best what Jeff is talking about (handheld computer)

You said "PDA's should be called handhelds, handheld computers, or some other catchy name at this point because they are so much more than simple organizers.", and I said PocketPC's encompass what you are describing, and seemed catchy enough.

Then some-one said my ideas were interesting, but MS still produces buggy code. I responded by saying if the foundation is right, bugs will get fixed eventually, while if the foundation is wrong its often impossible to fix something (reference frankengarnet)

Of course MS does not produce bug free code, and the close button still irritates most people, but they had the philosophy right from the start ( a PC in your Palm) vs the Zen of Palm (as simple and focussed as possible). When your philosophy is right the rest is just implementation. In fact the thing that irritates most PocketPC users currently is not the bloat of the OS, but the way they limited the OS, e.g. only 32 processes at one time, no task bar to make taskswitching easier and no proper close button. In general though they have produced a pocket sized general purpose computer, which the market appears to appeciate.

And then I finally responded to Jeff's most outrageous statement, that things never looked better for POS, by saying other major companies have done stranger things than e.g. Palm dropping POS. I think this was the straw that broke the camel's back

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
The fact is that Palm's future has never looked brighter.

If the Treo 670 is coming, this can not be true. I do not think its impossible that Palm could abandon POS. AOL owns Netscape and ships an IE browser, Apple is giving up the engine of Apple computers, the PowerPC, the originator of the Symbian OS, Psion, ships Win CE only. Even the paragon of Symbian, Nokia, appears to be transitioning to Linux.

Its not impossible that Palm could drop POS, stranger things have happened.

It sounds a bit like a rant, but its 4 separate posts, and the posts in between are not here, so there's no context. Its certainly not abusive, a personal attack or insulting. I find the original topic quite interesting however, especially coming from Jeff. Maybe he's coming around to accepting Win Mobile? (he will have to if he wants to continue in his role as Palm pundit and Palm starts using win mobile).

Surur

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
E Ben G @ 8/23/2005 6:04:06 PM # Q
That's it? I had actually already read those, so I thought the fuss had to be about something more.

You know what really gets me about this? The hypocrisy.
1. You post reasonable, referenced stuff, albeit from your WM background.
2. They raise hell calling you a goon, troll, etc, etc.
3. Mamma Reggie comes in a deletes your posts.
4. Then Kirvin takes the high road, calling himself 'civilized', etc, etc.

Easy to take the high road and put you down when they remove all traces of what you said.

Kirvin even had the gall to say you are full of 'primitive, tribal hatred of "the other"' in the same post that he claimed to hate you. Anybody see the disconnect there?

Anyway, like any of this even matters. Hypocrites just piss me off, that's all.

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
sr4 @ 8/23/2005 6:21:50 PM # Q
I'm still reading the site, despite having my IP banned and the forums being made members only (even for reading), but I had no idea my occasional postings were having such a terrible effect over there.

Reggie
1src Founder
Tam,

You have no idea how hard it has been! LOL. No, really, it has just been hard for us. You know me, I am quite partial, but when push comes to shove, I would rather not take this matter on my own hands but rather share it with the community.


http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=846216#post846216

By deleting my posts most people will think I did or said something truly horrible, and feel Reggie et al is fully justified in their actions. I wonder what Reggie thinks he's protecting the 1src's from by his tireless policing. Maybe the uncomfortable truth?

Surur

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
Gekko @ 8/23/2005 6:49:11 PM # Q

Palm's bloated Chief Senior Apologist is just angry. If you lived in a tiny, filthy pizza-box-strewn apartment with no air conditioning, drove a Dodge Neon, and hadn't been laid since the early 90's, you'd be angry too.



RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
twrock @ 8/23/2005 8:08:53 PM # Q
As for Reggie's reasons, here's the post that supposedly explains it:
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95001
It's pretty hard to figure out anything from that. Seems they are following up on a previous banning by deleting these recent posts. Obviously there is nothing in these latests posts that could possibly be seen as violating the posting guidelines.

So whatever did you do before to get banned in the first place? I guess I missed that whole "exchange" too.

Jeff contributes boat-loads to the 1src community. Whether or not he directly asked that your posts get deleted and you get banned is not something that we will probably ever find out. However, he will be protected.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
sr4 @ 8/24/2005 2:35:48 AM # Q
Too choice quotes from that thread:

I'd butted heads with him on several occasions giving him ample opportunity to disagree with me only to be called stupid, ignorant, moronic, and to be talked down to.

I havent looked at everything Surur has written (I tend to avoid parts of a thread that dont look like they are going anywhere), but he makes Jeff mad enough that some of the stuff must be bad.

I would never call some-one stupid, but certainly they can feel stupid by the time I've finished. Maybe this is what angers Jeff so much?

Surur

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
Adrenochrome @ 8/24/2005 7:14:45 AM # Q
Gekko > Palm's bloated Chief Senior Apologist is just angry. If you lived in a tiny, filthy pizza-box-strewn apartment with no air conditioning, drove a Dodge Neon, and hadn't been laid since the early 90's, you'd be angry too.

I believe this is the kind of thing Reggie wants to keep off 1Src. If you want personal attacks, PIC is the place for them.

As for Surur, VOR, and co., if you want to rant about what Palm has done wrong, PIC is a perfect place for that as well. 1Src has a different tone, and while you might feel that it's an apologist's site, the fact is that it's not even in the "is Palm crappy or not" debate. It's a Palm users site for Palm users exchanging info. If you want to rant about how gifted you are at predicting business model efficacy, PIC is for you. If you want to talk about using a Palm, 1Src is your site.



RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
twrock @ 8/24/2005 7:58:13 AM # Q
Adrenochrome, well said, fair 'nuff.

Personally, I've been bouncing back and forth lately. It really does feel like swinging between two extremes. I suppose "balance" is somewhere in the middle, but most of us are clearly not balanced. ;-)

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
sr4 @ 8/24/2005 8:45:16 AM # Q
With jjesusfreak suggesting they infect my pc with a virus not that he would support it, I really do not think they are terribly balanced over there either.

Today, 05:49 AM
  #16
jjesusfreak01
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,321
Originally Posted by Tam Hanna
Cookie??
That would be a no-miss way to track Surur-if he always is using one PC. Just place a cookie for every user with an unique ID, and log ID vs IP. Then, if you IP-Blocik, you also block the Cookie ID...

No, the best way would be to infect his computer with a virus which pulled a unique ID off of the system and sent it to the site, which could completely block him from using that computer on 1src again. Cookies can be deleted, not that I would support sending Surur a virus.
__________________
Brad Green, associate writer, TamsPalm

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=846396

Maybe I should just join a debating team. But where would I find a place that debates my PDA interests all the time?

Surur

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
Adrenochrome @ 8/24/2005 12:23:18 PM # Q
I bounce back and forth between PIC and 1Src as well. They're both useful and interesting. The main difference between the two at the moment is that PIC tends to host arguments, whereas 1Src tends to host discussions. I'd like to see the bulk of combative arguing kept away from 1Src.

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
sr4 @ 8/24/2005 12:37:58 PM # Q
True, but how much worth is there in a poorly informed discussion, especially with regard to the future of Palm, where a different POV should be valuable. Of course many times different people bring up the same points I would have, but at other times Jeff's statements go unchallenged. Often they appear to be Ra-Ra statements apparently meant to increase morale and keep the troops happy.

Old Today, 09:39 AM #22
Reggie

We have a simple set of rules. What is so difficult following them? If this community doesn't meet your expectations or if it disappoints you that it won't let you bash and attack other members, move on and find other free communities that will let you.


http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=846458#post846458

Either way, here is the meat of the problem. They do not want to expose Jeff and/or his ideas to criticism. If you want to be a tall tree you should expect some wind.

Surur

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
Gekko @ 8/24/2005 2:51:59 PM # Q
1SRC Site Rules
* No posting or soliciting of illegal applications such as warez, keygens, and cracks.
* No personal attacks against any other member or moderator.
* No posting of messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

-----

Surur never broke any of the above rules. Surur simply presented facts and a logical argument contradicting Palm's Bloated Chief Senior Apologist's (BCSA) nauseating sycophantic apologist commentary. My personal theory is that the BCSA is insecure and incapable of accepting any criticism of his ideas - hence his constant cries for censorship and banning of anyone who disagrees with him or has any criticisms of Palm. you see, the BCSA really thinks he's smarter than everybody else - and it angers him when he is publicly shown to be wrong. Surur is a very bright and articulate guy who was very effective at making the BCSA look foolish. the BCSA could not let this stand and obviously rolled Reggie on this matter. Thank God that Ryan had the balls to tell the BCSA to go pound sand when he tried to roll him a few months ago.



RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
E Ben G @ 8/24/2005 9:19:58 PM # Q
Adrenochrome: "I believe this is the kind of thing Reggie wants to keep off 1Src. If you want personal attacks, PIC is the place for them."

Fair enough. My point is: exactly when did Surur post a comment like this to 1src?? Answer - he didn't. At least not from what I read. And I have asked repeatedly to deaf ears for someone over there to produce evidence of such a post on Surur's part.

So without that evidence, I'm left to believe Reggie is only censoring his bud Kirvin to protect JK's pathetic insecurity.

Adrenochrome: "As for Surur, VOR, and co., if you want to rant about what Palm has done wrong...etc, etc, etc."

As to this, as I pointed out on 1src, I don't think lumping Surur and TVoR is accurate. Not that I am offended by TVoR, by the way. I could give a ****, as I expect could TVoR. But I think it's fair to say that their styles differ, which should be obvious to anyone who frequents these sites. I agree that TVoR's style has no place on 1src, but censoring Surur's reasonable participation in 1src's 'debates' is flat bull****.

Anyway - like I said earlier, when it comes down to it all of this is pretty damn unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Especially when you consider that these Palm boards aren't going to be interesting for very much longer anyway. No offense.

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
E Ben G @ 8/24/2005 9:32:28 PM # Q
Clearly, I meant to say Reggie is censoring Surur to protect his bud Kirvin's pathetic insecurity.

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/24/2005 10:10:26 PM # Q
Palm's bloated Chief Senior Apologist is just angry. If you lived in a tiny, filthy pizza-box-strewn apartment with no air conditioning, drove a Dodge Neon, and hadn't been laid since the early 90's, you'd be angry too.


Delete the bit about driving (he doesn't know how) and change the Date of Last Lay (DLL) to early 50's and you could be talking about Mike Cane!


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ministry of Truth: All is OK in PalmLand
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/24/2005 10:19:03 PM # Q
"As for Surur, VOR, and co., if you want to rant about what Palm has done wrong...etc, etc, etc."

As to this, as I pointed out on 1src, I don't think lumping Surur and TVoR is accurate. Not that I am offended by TVoR, by the way. I could give a ****, as I expect could TVoR. But I think it's fair to say that their styles differ, which should be obvious to anyone who frequents these sites. I agree that TVoR's style has no place on 1src, but censoring Surur's reasonable participation in 1src's 'debates' is flat bull****.

Anyway - like I said earlier, when it comes down to it all of this is pretty damn unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Especially when you consider that these Palm boards aren't going to be interesting for very much longer anyway. No offense.

Yes, it's not fair to lump Surur in with TVoR. Surur is polite, preferring to embarass Palm Apologists with irrefutable facts to which he usually posts links. TVoR on the other hand uses a mixture of information gleamed from various sources and exposes the ugly side of Palm/PalmSource that some would prefer to not talk about. They pull no punches and won't suffer fools, as was shown in the previous destruction of Kirvin and the ongoing mockery of Marty Fouts. Those here with any intelligence are able to see the real message underlying these differing styles. The information posted by these users will hopefully shed some light on issues that need to be discussed and worked out if PalmOS is to remain a viable platform.

If you choose to stick your head in the sand like some would prefer you to do, don't be surprised to hear PalmOS' head get chopped off.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/24/2005 10:33:04 PM # Q
Especially when you consider that these Palm boards aren't going to be interesting for very much longer anyway. No offense.

Ouch. And who's fault is that? Perhaps if the Pollyannas hadn't pretended everything was OK and had raised their expectations of Palm, we would not be in that position in 2005.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
hkklife @ 8/24/2005 10:45:17 PM # Q
Pollyannas=PALMyannas


Hmmm, I like that one almost as my "PALMconomy" from Monday. Maybe I'll trademark them both or at least make 'em my coined terms.

PIC is the ONLY site in all of Palmdom worth reading on a regular basis nowadays. I mean, the BH gang are standing complacent alongside Ed's over the LifeDrive's inadequacies and Palm's utter failure to patch their flagship device in a timely manner. In a few years when all of the smoke has cleared and the "other" sites have either retreated to PPC-only coverage or just pulled a Palmstation.com and vanished into the ether, I imagine PIC to be going strong. Hopefully it'll have users with stockpiles of T3s & TH55s trading tips/parts and be something like the Nuon or Newton communities are nowadays.

This is how the world ends...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/24/2005 11:23:54 PM # Q
Pollyannas=PALMyannas


Hmmm, I like that one almost as my "PALMconomy" from Monday. Maybe I'll trademark them both or at least make 'em my coined terms.

Brilliant. What is your royalty rate charged for people using the words?

PIC is the ONLY site in all of Palmdom worth reading on a regular basis nowadays. I mean, the BH gang are standing complacent alongside Ed's over the LifeDrive's inadequacies and Palm's utter failure to patch their flagship device in a timely manner. In a few years when all of the smoke has cleared and the "other" sites have either retreated to PPC-only coverage or just pulled a Palmstation.com and vanished into the ether, I imagine PIC to be going strong. Hopefully it'll have users with stockpiles of T3s & TH55s trading tips/parts and be something like the Nuon or Newton communities are nowadays.

Didn't Cliesouce disappear overnight a while back only to become that new Palm site? When the WinMob Treos show up, I expect those sites will quickly jump on the bandwagon and go where the money is. And does ANYONE take anything said on Brighthand seriously?

PalmStation actually may be the poster child for these sites. Remember "back in the day" when PalmStation's Hal scooped everyone with the photos of the i705? The energy and excitement within the PalmOS community seems to be vanishing as quickly as the VAPORware Palm hardware and the Palmconomy will be the first casualty. Even the PalmWarez group has been MIA (but this may have more to do with someone's fear of jail time...)

My bunker's stocked with CLIE parts and accessories [thank God for eBay!] and I've started archiving versions of applications in case developers start disappearing.

TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
rcartwright @ 8/24/2005 11:27:29 PM # Q
I find it intersting to say the least that Surur felt compelled to censor his own posts by glossing over parts of his post to get to the parts that he elected to post. What did he have to hide in his efforts to skip to the best parts as it were?

Bottom line is Ryan banned Surur from his site. Surur persists in trying to get on and post. This is no different from a vandal breaking into your house and spraying graffiti on the walls.

In my book that hardly makes you the poster child for free speech.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

Surur vs. the Palmyanna's. Which is The Greater Evil?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/24/2005 11:40:48 PM # Q
Bottom line is Ryan banned Surur from his site. Surur persists in trying to get on and post. This is no different from a vandal breaking into your house and spraying graffiti on the walls.

The Poster Formerly Known As Surur was banned. sr4 seems to be a COMPLETELY SEPARATE poster, much as Palm and PalmSource are COMPLETELY SEPARATE companies. You have NO beef here.




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
rcartwright @ 8/25/2005 12:12:16 AM # Q
VoR,

I too often use humor to try to distract from a losing position. Surur admits he is one and the same as the poster so your position is untenable at best.

I often disagree with Jeff Kirvin. I often think he is wrong and tell him so. Oddly enough, I can do it without being banned or resorting to ad hominium attacks.

Civility

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
sr4 @ 8/25/2005 2:35:11 AM # Q

rcartwright, you're right, and I should really take a hint. Ive learned to behave myself better here however, as Ive come to appreciate the community. Looking back at some of my older posts does make me cringe. Who knows, maybe like PalmOne, I could get back my old name some day ;)

Either way though, my posts at 1src did not violate the stated rules except to rile Jeff, who complained of "It's possible to be a snarky troll without being in-your-face VoR offensive. A lot of it is intent and subtext." He was obviously reading personal attacks in my criticisms of his opinions. If you cant stand to have your ideas critically analyzed you should not stand on a pulpit and shout them out.
http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94825&page=3&pp=15

BTW my deleted posts above are not self-censored. The italicized text explains the text that follows, it does not replace any removed text. There is actually nothing else there.

Surur

RE: Can someone post Surur's deleted 1SRC posts please
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/25/2005 11:46:53 AM # Q
in-your-face VoR offensive

W T F! I find his cowardly attack extremely offensive. I think I'm going to go blog about how bad Mr. Kirvin is and get my Mommy and a few of my Circle Jerk Buddies to post messages saying I'm right.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

COMPLETELY off topic, and PROUD of it.
E Ben G @ 8/26/2005 12:42:33 AM # Q
1. go to http://donsmobilebarbers.co.uk/flash.php

2. Click the squirrel ('mp3s')

3. Click 'Version 2.0'

4. Click 'Euros and Dollars'

That's a puckin' good tong.

Reply to this comment
Start a New Comment Thread Top

Account

Register Register | Login Log in
user:
pass: