MobileInfocenter

Comments on: PalmSource Acquired By ACCESS

PalmSource LogoACCESS Inc, a Tokyo-based company that develops mobile Internet software, said it will acquire PalmSource, for as much as 35.8 billion yen ($324 million) in an all cash deal.

ACCESS said in a release that it will make PalmSource a wholly owned subsidiary to expand applications for mobile phones.

Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (322 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Start a new Comment Down

An 83% Premium???

Gekko @ 9/9/2005 1:07:23 AM # Q

They're either the dumbest people in the world or the smartest people in the world.

-----

ACCESS to Extend Leadership in Mobile Device Software with Acquisition of PalmSource
Friday September 9, 12:30 am ET
Acquisition Broadens ACCESS Product Portfolio

TOKYO, Japan and SUNNYVALE, Calif., Sept. 9 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- ACCESS Co., Ltd., (Tokyo Stock Exchange: 4813), a global provider of mobile content delivery and Internet access software, and PalmSource, Inc. (Nasdaq: PSRC - News), provider of Palm OS®, a leading operating system powering next generation phones and mobile devices, today announced they have signed a definitive agreement for ACCESS to acquire PalmSource in an all-cash transaction valued at USD $18.50 per share of PalmSource common stock , or approximately USD $324.3 million (approximately ¥35.9 billion). ACCESS' USD $18.50 per share offer represents an 83% premium for PalmSource stockholders based on the market closing price of USD $10.09 on September 8, 2005.



RE: An 83% Premium???
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 1:13:52 AM # Q
Or people with money to burn...

Sayonara...
Gekko @ 9/9/2005 1:27:12 AM # Q

Oyasuminasai!


RE: An 83% Premium???
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 1:27:14 AM # Q
Well, at least something better than WebPro & Blazer will likely come out of this!! Off to bed now...further ruminations on this in the morning!

I wonder how long this has been in the works--looks like the Voice WAS right after all...but these guys came outta NOWHERE! I wonder what a move like this will do to Palm's Linux ramp-up?

RE: An 83% Premium???
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 1:31:24 AM # Q
> I wonder how long this has been in the works--looks like the
> Voice WAS right after all...

Huh? Skippy predicted that PALM would buy PalmSource. He never once mentioned any other possible buyer.

> but these guys came outta NOWHERE!

Not, nowhere. That's where godzilla come from. These guys came from Tokyo.

> I wonder what a move like this will do to Palm's Linux
> ramp-up?

My SWAG: nothing.

It takes a long time for corporate buy-outs to be approved by the respective boards, stock holders and regulators. Then it takes a time for the buy out to actually happen. Then the borged^wbought company has to be digested by the buying company.



RE: An 83% Premium???
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 1:35:23 AM # Q
Ok, time to clarify:

Voice said the PalmSource acquisition was IMMINENT. Weren't we just debating last weekend whether Monday was "this" week or "next week"? But, yes, I am aware that he--nor any of the other online pundits/oracles--never mentioned any other potential buyers other than Palm themselves.

"Came outta nowhere"=the rumor mill didn't churn in the SLIGHTEST prior to this announcement hitting the wire.

What have these guys done of recent note aside from the various Netfront products? They're not some spin-off, subsidiary, or even just deeply in cahoots with NTT DoCoMo, are they?


RE: Sayanora
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 1:38:45 AM # Q
ohayo gozaimasu

The bell tolls for Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 1:42:10 AM # Q
Well, at least something better than WebPro & Blazer will likely come out of this!! Off to bed now...further ruminations on this in the morning!

I wonder how long this has been in the works--looks like the Voice WAS right after all...but these guys came outta NOWHERE! I wonder what a move like this will do to Palm's Linux ramp-up?

hkklife, I was predicting Palm would be behind the takeout, since owning PalmOS is the only way Palm could ensure its longterm survival. I assume the price was too rich for Palm to counter with a white knight stock-for-stock move. And since - as I've posted before - Palm has its rights to PalmOS locked up anyway, in some ways it doesn't matter in the short term that they've now lost control of PalmOS.

Ultimately, this means the end of Palm as a PalmOS company and the deal also seals Palm's fate, since it will not survive for long as Just Another WinMob Licensee.

How tragic.

TVoR


Had I theoretically bought 10,000 shares a week ago when the buyout rumors started, I would have just made $100,000. Sweet.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: An 83% Premium???
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 1:54:09 AM # Q
> Voice said the PalmSource acquisition was IMMINENT.

Skippy said it was anytime from now through the middle of next year.

> Weren't we just debating last weekend whether Monday
> was "this" week or "next week"? But, yes, I am aware that he--
> nor any of the other online pundits/oracles--never mentioned
> any other potential buyers other than Palm themselves.

Actually, I mentioned several. I even expressed concern over skippy's possible anguish if someone other than Palm bought PalmSource. ;)

> "Came outta nowhere"=the rumor mill didn't churn in the
> SLIGHTEST prior to this announcement hitting the wire.

You need a better rumor mill. ;)

> What have these guys done of recent note aside from the
> various Netfront products?

nothing that i know about.

> They're not some spin-off, subsidiary, or even just deeply
> in cahoots with NTT DoCoMo, are they?

Not as far as I can tell looking around tonight.

They seem to be in a hurry, though. The press release on their site indicates that they intend to finish the merger before the end of December, which is incredibly fast for an international buy out.

RE: An 83% Premium???
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 3:43:46 AM # Q
> And since - as I've posted before - Palm has its rights to
> PalmOS locked up anyway

I can't recall Skippy. Did you post that Palm has its right all locked up before or after you posted that ALL licenses would be VOID (your emphasis) if PalmSource was bought out.

Is this how you get your great prediction success rate? By predicting enough outcomes that at least one of them has to be likely? Very droll, Skippy.

> Had I theoretically bought 10,000 shares a week ago when the
> buyout rumors started, I would have just made $100,000. Sweet.

A week ago? Skippy, you've been trying to get a buyout rumor started ferever. Anyway, had you bought on the 2nd, (that's a week ago,) you'd have paid right around $10.60 a share. If you sold today, you'd have lost roughly $0.60 a share, so, not counting your fees, you'd have just lost $60,000.

Now had you bought on 23 Aug and held out for the six months or so it'll take for you to sell to ACCESS _and_ the deal goes through, you'd gross $100K before short term capital gain taxes, less your trade fees.

RE: An 83% Premium???
rkevwill @ 9/9/2005 11:11:55 AM # Q
ummmm check the price today. Its over 17 bucks

RE: An 83% Premium???
arp @ 9/9/2005 11:27:34 AM # Q
> Then the borged^wbought company has to be digested by the buying company.

I'm not sure I like the sound of that...

--
http://www.arpx.net/article.php/top_10_palmos_applications - my top 10 palm apps

RE: An 83% Premium???
Dr Opinion @ 9/9/2005 6:44:03 PM # Q
> "in some ways it doesn't matter in the short term that they've now lost control of PalmOS"

The-Voice-of-Dumbness is apparently a m$ shill, and not the sharpest pencil in the pack to boot. Palm "lost control of the PalmOS" when they originally divested PalmSurce.

That was the entire point!

I mean, duh! :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: An 83% Premium???
Gekko @ 9/9/2005 7:04:59 PM # Q
DrOpinion - as the corpse gets colder, please tell us how it can get up dance.

RE: An 83% Premium???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 9:49:55 PM # Q
> And since - as I've posted before - Palm has its rights to
> PalmOS locked up anyway

I can't recall Skippy. Did you post that Palm has its right all locked up before or after you posted that ALL licenses would be VOID (your emphasis) if PalmSource was bought out.

Actually, I posted links to (and analysis of) the 8-KA outlining how Palm was covering its a$$ in case PalmSource was sold to someone else. You need to go back and READ the threads in question before making more retarded statements like that, Marty. As usual your attempts to obfuscate are somewhat quaint in their child-like amateurishness.

Mr. Fouts, as usual you're not making much sense.

> Had I theoretically bought 10,000 shares a week ago when the
> buyout rumors started, I would have just made $100,000. Sweet.

A week ago? Skippy, you've been trying to get a buyout rumor started ferever. Anyway, had you bought on the 2nd, (that's a week ago,) you'd have paid right around $10.60 a share. If you sold today, you'd have lost roughly $0.60 a share, so, not counting your fees, you'd have just lost $60,000.

Now had you bought on 23 Aug and held out for the six months or so it'll take for you to sell to ACCESS _and_ the deal goes through, you'd gross $100K before short term capital gain taxes, less your trade fees.

More lies from Marty. Isn't that a surprise...

And more bizarre Marty Math.

Thanks for sharing, Bubba. Don't quit your day job.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: An 83% Premium???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 10:03:46 PM # Q
Is this how you get your great prediction success rate? By predicting enough outcomes that at least one of them has to be likely? Very droll, Skippy.


Mr. Fouts, as usual you're not making much sense. reading comprehension is apparently not something you do very well at.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: An 83% Premium???
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 10:07:24 PM # Q
>> I can't recall Skippy. Did you post that Palm has its right
>> all locked up before or after you posted that ALL licenses w
>> ould be VOID (your emphasis) if PalmSource was bought out.

> Actually, I posted links to (and analysis of) the 8-KA
> outlining how Palm was covering its a$$ in case PalmSource
> was sold to someone else.

Indeed you did Skippy. You posted it in the same thread that _you_ labeled with the claim that ALL licenses would be VOID if PalmSource was bought out.

It was fun to watch you back pedal then. It's fun to watch you deny the back pedaling now.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Marty, Marty, Marty... Mendacity is your middle name.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 10:56:44 PM # Q
>> I can't recall Skippy. Did you post that Palm has its right
>> all locked up before or after you posted that ALL licenses w
>> ould be VOID (your emphasis) if PalmSource was bought out.

> Actually, I posted links to (and analysis of) the 8-KA
> outlining how Palm was covering its a$$ in case PalmSource
> was sold to someone else.

Indeed you did Skippy. You posted it in the same thread that _you_ labeled with the claim that ALL licenses would be VOID if PalmSource was bought out.

It was fun to watch you back pedal then. It's fun to watch you deny the back pedaling now.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

http://www.palminfocentre.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8042#111393

Marty, dearest: your FUD, misdirections and untruthfulness are now reaching toward epic proportions unseen here since the late Michael Mace. (You now DO know who Michael Mace is, right Marty? I believe you previously claimed to have no knowledge of who he was.)

It's nice to see you at least finally admitting who you are. Did Dianne Hackborn biotchslap you until you agreed to stop your silly little "anonymous insider" charade?

Keep posting more of your steady stream of drivel here, Mr. Fouts. And remember: we're not laughing WITH you, we're laughing AT you.


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: An 83% Premium???
PenguinPowered @ 9/10/2005 1:35:15 AM # Q
Um, Nope, Skippy, got that wrong as well. It's Joseph.

Thanks for playing, though.

> Marty, dearest: your FUD, misdirections and untruthfulness
> are now reaching toward epic proportions unseen here since
> the late Michael Mace. (You now DO know who Michael Mace is,
> right Marty? I believe you previously claimed to have no
> knowledge of who he was.)

Um, Skippy, you're confused again. All I did was point out, correctly, that you've claimed both that PalmSource licenses were voided if PalmSource was bought, _and_ that they weren't. That's not FUD, misdirection, nor untruthfulness.

And no, I still have no idea who Michael Mace is; other than someone you seem to have a fetish for.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: An 83% Premium???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 7:20:44 AM # Q
It's reassuring to know that someone like you is helping develop PalmOS, Marty. Now I'll understand why it is that PalmOS 5 will ultimately be remembered as the platform's apogee.

With you on board, no doubt Apollo will soon be crash landing into the Sea of Red Ink. Take care, Marty.


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

Reply to this comment

Un****ingbelievable.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 1:25:40 AM # Q
I didn't believe this when I heard this on the weekend. This pretty much confirms that the PalmOS platform as we knew it is dead. White knight Palm was either asleep at the wheel or evidently has decided to become Just Another WinMob Licensee. While it's nice to hear PalmSource may be rescued by a company that might actually provide the necessary resources to accelerate PalmLinux development and make it into a viable smartphone OS by 2006, I'll believe it when I see it.

I am truly speechless.

P.S. Ka-Ching!

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 1:41:58 AM # Q
Voice;

Good to see you back & posting. I wouldn't want to have missed out on your insight as this trainwreck unfolds for anything!!

Man, '06 is somehow shaping up to be even more grim than I anticipated it being.

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
chicken_tandoori @ 9/9/2005 1:43:58 AM # Q
actually voice... you said it before i even managed to log in.

maybe this really is a good sign. better people replacing the clueless ones at PS.

ha ha!

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 1:57:28 AM # Q
Voice;

Good to see you back & posting. I wouldn't want to have missed out on your insight as this trainwreck unfolds for anything!!

Man, '06 is somehow shaping up to be even more grim than I anticipated it being.

Thanks, hkklife. I expected the buyout, but was certain Palm was going to be the winner, with another Handspring-style stock-for-stock move. I think Palm just got outflanked and has now lost control over the only thing that matters: PalmOS. While the bogus "split" of Palm a few years ago was a very clever move for reasons I've previously documented, that corporate gamesmanship has now come back to bite Palm in the a$$.

When you think about how valuable a property PalmOS is (last time I checked, there weren't exactly a lot of PDA OSes out there with huge application libraries and developer communities), to allow PalmOS to be swiped by Access is a major blunder.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 1:57:56 AM # Q
> This pretty much confirms that the PalmOS platform as we knew
> it is dead.

Ah, good to see Skippy's still confused. This confirms no such thing. Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by 'as we knew it'. If you mean Garnet's dead, than we agree.

> White knight Palm was either asleep at the wheel or evidently
> has decided to become Just Another WinMob Licensee.

Maybe. Be patient. If they do, they're on a short road to a dead end.

> While it's nice to hear PalmSource may be rescued by a
> company that might actually provide the necessary resources
> to accelerate PalmLinux development and make it into a viable
> smartphone OS by 2006, I'll believe it when I see it.

Nah. Mergers take time. Although ACCESS' press release on their web site says they plan to finish merging by the end of December, that'd be very impressive speed for an international takeover. You can pretty much figure that ACCESS won't have much direct impact, other than to cause confusion among the PalmSource troops, until mid-late '06.

> I am truly speechless.

;)


RE: Un****ingbelievable.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 2:14:00 AM # Q
> This pretty much confirms that the PalmOS platform as we knew
> it is dead.

Ah, good to see Skippy's still confused. This confirms no such thing. Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by 'as we knew it'. If you mean Garnet's dead, than we agree.

PalmOS 5 is toast. As a foundation for smartphones it's far too kludgy to be taken seriously. The value of PalmSource is in providing an (almost) turnkey OS for smartphones that already has a huge app library waiting to be leveraged (or more accurately, "3xpl0It3d"). Even though PalmLinux development is still in its infancy (I expect PalmLinux will not be ready for Prime Time for at least two more years) it still beats trying to create a platform from scratch. Maybe.

> White knight Palm was either asleep at the wheel or evidently
> has decided to become Just Another WinMob Licensee.

Maybe. Be patient. If they do, they're on a short road to a dead end.

$325 million is $75 million more than I thought PalmSource would get. That price is (arguably) ridiculous, given how primitive PalmLinux currently is and that a lot can happen in the 2 years it will take to get PalmLinux to market. If Motorola or Nokia et. al. succeed in their Linux initiatives and get developer support (and if Java reaches its potential), PalmLinux may end up being the answer to a question no one is asking in 2007.

[And no, Marty - Cobalt won't cut it for Palm in the interim as we wait for PalmLinux. WinMob Treos will signal the death of the PalmOS platform as we knew it.]


> While it's nice to hear PalmSource may be rescued by a
> company that might actually provide the necessary resources
> to accelerate PalmLinux development and make it into a viable
> smartphone OS by 2006, I'll believe it when I see it.

Nah. Mergers take time. Although ACCESS' press release on their web site says they plan to finish merging by the end of December, that'd be very impressive speed for an international takeover. You can pretty much figure that ACCESS won't have much direct impact, other than to cause confusion among the PalmSource troops, until mid-late '06.

Again, PalmLinux in 2007 seems realistic, but with the competition not exactly standing still, I would not be surprised to find PalmLinux greeted by yawns and developer indifference in 2007. The release of a slew of Cobalt devices ASAP is needed to keep PalmOS app developers from letting the platform wither, but what I've seen of Cobalt running on real hardware has been disappointing - to put it mildly.

> I am truly speechless.

;)

Well, not really.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 3:15:57 AM # Q
http://www.access.co.jp/press/050909.html

2005.09.09

ACCESS subsidiary company and United States PalmSource and Inc. With the news regarding merger


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Corporation ACCESS (head office: The Tokyo Chiyoda Ku, Representative President: Arakawa Toru, below "ACCESS") and are its complete subsidiary company United States Apollo Merger Sub and Inc. which (Head office: Delaware state, below "Apollo Merger Sub"), Apollo Merger Sub for the American portable equipment is installed in the board of directors both of 2005 September 9th opening, and are the OS production major company PalmSource and Inc. which (Head office: California state, CEO: Because Patrick McVeigh and below "the PalmSource" or "object company") by the fact that it absorbs combines, the effect which designates PalmSource as the complete subsidiary company of ACCESS substantially it resolved respectively, as mentioned below we inform.

Description
1. Reason of merger
PalmSource installs for the portable equipment and it is the American major software development company which does the development and license offer of PalmOS which is OS. PalmOS, to presently the license is offered Palm make PDA, Sony make PDA CLIE, by Samsung and Kyocera, etc. has possessed the abundant result of the PalmOS on-board terminal shipment quantity 3,900 ten thousand units and the Palm application community etc. which exceeds 40 ten thousand.
In addition, PalmSource acquires the Linux technology which is optimum to the portable telephone via the purchase of 2005 January China MobileSoft, presently we are advancing the development of Linux based PalmOS. Because of this, the user interface where PalmOS is superior, the software framework and various applications, the Palm OS user and the developer community etc., are related with the Linux community, are thought the thing which produces big effect on future market expansion.

As for ACCESS, PalmSource possesses by the to complete subsidiary company converting PalmSource substantially, the user interface which is superior, application, to take in the developer community, for the portable telephone those which can assure the substantial expansion of application we have expected. In addition, it includes to Linux based OS and Palm based application, it becomes possible to offer the total Turn Key solution as ACCESS furthermore we think that reduction of the terminal development cost in the terminal manufacturer by plus doing the customer basis in the portable terminal market which ACCESS possesses, in addition to the enlargement of the profit, becomes possible. In addition, the development team approximately 200 names of China MobileSoft think the thing which keeps bearing one end of strengthening and future Linux based software development of the Chinese resource of ACCESS.

ACCESS, in order to achieve the above-mentioned purpose, PalmSource (NASDAQ presentation) 100% to acquire stock substantially.


2. Method of merger
As for this case we adopt the cash merger system in the United States. Concretely, the occasion where Apollo Merger Sub and PalmSource combine, the cash is paid from ACCESS vis-a-vis the shareholder of PalmSource, as a compensation of possession stock. Therefore, PalmSource after the combining substantially becomes the complete subsidiary company of ACCESS.


3. Summary of merger this thing company
About PalmSource
(1) Trade name PalmSource and Inc.
(2) Address 1188 East Arques Avenue, Sunnyvale and CA
(3) Name of representative CEO: Patrick McVeigh
(4) Establishment date 2001 December 3rd (Palm and Inc. From corporation amount corporation establishment)
(5) Capital 17 thousand dollars
(6) Contents of business For portable equipment such as hand-held device and smart phone it installs, the production and sale of OS
(7) Being employed numerical 518 names (connected base, as of 2005 July 20th)
(8) Business result
2004 May period result 2005 May period result
Gross sales 73,117 thousand dollars (approximately 8,067 1000000 Yen) 71,911 thousand dollars (approximately 7,934 1000000 Yen)
Operating profit ¢ 12,799 thousand dollars (¢ approximately 1,412 1000000 Yen) ¢ 10,241 thousand dollars (¢ approximately 1,130 1000000 Yen)
Sumitosi benefit ¢ 15,247 thousand dollars (¢ approximately 1,682 1000000 Yen) 19,482 thousand dollars (approximately 2,149 1000000 Yen)
Entire property 152,792 thousand dollars (approximately 16,858 1000000 Yen) 187,864 thousand dollars (approximately 20,727 1000000 Yen)
Pure property 108,991 thousand dollars (approximately 12,025 1000000 Yen) 154,665 thousand dollars (approximately 17,064 1000000 Yen)

(Note) Yen 1 dollar in rate of exchange =110.33 (circle it has converted the publication rate TTM by 2005 September 8 date Tokyo Mitsubishi Bank, Ltd.) of on the basis.


(9) Fiscal term 5 ends of the month
(10) Presentation stock exchange NASDAQ (cord/code: PSRC)

About Apollo Merger Sub
(1) Trade name Apollo Merger Sub and Inc.
(2) Address City of Wilmington, County of New Castle and DE
(2) Name of representative Arakawa Toru
(3) Establishment date 2005 September 2nd
(4) Capital 1 dollar
(5) Contents of business Preparation of merger
(6) Shareholder constitution ACCESS 100%


4. Circumstance of object company possession ratio of fund and the merger front and back which are required for cash merger
(1) When the number of latent stocks which relate to stock option is not considered
(I) Possession ratio before the combining 0%
(II) Necessary fund Approximately 344 hundred million Yen
(III) Possession ratio after the combining 100%

(Note) Yen 1 dollar in rate of exchange =110.33 (circle it converts the above-mentioned necessary fund, the publication rate TTM by 2005 September 8 date Tokyo Mitsubishi Bank, Ltd.) of on the basis.


(2) When the number of latent stocks which relate to stock option is considered
(I) Possession ratio before the combining 0%
(II) Necessary fund Approximately 358 hundred million Yen
(III) Possession ratio after the combining 100%

(Note) Yen 1 dollar in rate of exchange =110.33 (circle it converts the above-mentioned necessary fund, the publication rate TTM by 2005 September 8 date Tokyo Mitsubishi Bank, Ltd.) of on the basis.



5. Schedule
2005 September 9th board of directors resolution day
Around 2005 December merger execution schedule


6. The influence which is given to the future achievement
As soon as presently to be in the midst of scrutinizing concerning the influence which is given to the achievement of the group, to become clear, we disclose rapidly.


Above

This release ahead the inquiring which regards

- Ahead inquiring of reporting authorized personnel
Kiyouko global corporate communication section Obara
TEL: 03-5259-3685
FAX: 03-3233-0222

- Ahead other inquiring
Koichi Narasaki management plan Headquarters Chief routine work execution official
TEL: 03-5259-3511
FAX: 03-5259-3544


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

Google Japanese to English BETA.
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 3:28:42 AM # Q
jeez Skippy, if you're going to run a web page through Google's BETA Japanese to English translator, you should at least let people know you did that.

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 3:29:50 AM # Q
> Even though PalmLinux development is still in its infancy (I
> expect PalmLinux will not be ready for Prime Time for at
> least two more years) it still beats trying to create a
> platform from scratch. Maybe.

two years? Very good. we'll get you in tune with the reality of software development yet, Skippy.

> $325 million is $75 million more than I thought PalmSource
> would get.

$250M is twice their market cap of a few days ago. Even that's a hell of a premium for a software company. Maybe the dot-boom is back.

> That price is (arguably) ridiculous, given how primitive
> PalmLinux currently is and that a lot can happen in the 2
> years it will take to get PalmLinux to market.

IMO, ACCESS didn't pay that premium to get at PalmLinux.

> If Motorola or Nokia et. al. succeed in their Linux
> initiatives and get developer support (and if Java reaches
> its potential), PalmLinux may end up being the answer to a
> question no one is asking in 2007.

Moto doesn't have a real Linux initiative. Nokia's the player to watch in the Linux phone space, as I've mentioned before. I'd have guessed Nokia before ACCESS, myself.

> WinMob Treos will signal the death of the PalmOS platform as
> we knew it.

I'd imagine that PalmLinux is more likely to do that. About the only thing the WinMob Treo is going to signal is confusion on Palm's part.

> Again, PalmLinux in 2007 seems realistic, but with the
> competition not exactly standing still, I would not be
> surprised to find PalmLinux greeted by yawns and developer
> indifference in 2007.

Eh, there's not much in the way of competition on the Linux front. TrollTech and MontaVista seem to have had a falling out and Moto's not making much headway (and doesn't seem to care that much.)

Nokia _did_ get FCC approval for the 770, though. That'll be interesting to watch.

> The release of a slew of Cobalt devices ASAP is needed to
> keep PalmOS app developers from letting the platform wither,
> but what I've seen of Cobalt running on real hardware has
> been disappointing - to put it mildly.

Well, there won't be any winmob treos in consumers hands in the next two quarters and there won't be any cobalt phones to speak of, especially in the us market. Nokia seems to be content to go slow with Linux, testing the water with a non-phone device.

ACCESS/Apollo/the-company-soon-to-be-formerly-known-as-PalmSource or whatever it'll be called still has an open window.

The question is, as it has been all along, whether or not they can get through it before it closes in '08.

By the way, Skippy, I'm impressed. quite the balancing act you're doing here, trying to act as if you're still holding the same views you held all along. Glad you're back on form.


Marty Fouts: were you always this slow?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 10:07:51 PM # Q
jeez Skippy, if you're going to run a web page through Google's BETA Japanese to English translator, you should at least let people know you did that.

What do you see when you go to the site I referenced in my previous post with the translation, Marty?

(http://www.access.co.jp/press/050909.html)

Your comments have gotten weaker and weaker with every post. Perhaps its time you beg Dianne Hackborn for some help in formulating cogent responses here. You're nothing but an embarassment to PalmSource - assuming you still will have a job in the near future. Please keep it up though, Marty - the presence of people like you in PalmSource is precisely why the company is floundering.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 10:15:08 PM # Q
> Even though PalmLinux development is still in its infancy (I
> expect PalmLinux will not be ready for Prime Time for at
> least two more years) it still beats trying to create a
> platform from scratch. Maybe.

two years? Very good. we'll get you in tune with the reality of software development yet, Skippy.

Marty, you need to get a clue. Please make some more of your smarmy posts for our viewing pleasure.

> $325 million is $75 million more than I thought PalmSource
> would get.

$250M is twice their market cap of a few days ago. Even that's a hell of a premium for a software company. Maybe the dot-boom is back.

PalmSource also has $100 million in cash + investments. And its cap was hovering around $150 million for quite a while before the recent tailspin. $250 million would have been a reasonable price.

> That price is (arguably) ridiculous, given how primitive
> PalmLinux currently is and that a lot can happen in the 2
> years it will take to get PalmLinux to market.

IMO, ACCESS didn't pay that premium to get at PalmLinux.

Well, we all know exactly what your opinion is worth, Marty.

> If Motorola or Nokia et. al. succeed in their Linux
> initiatives and get developer support (and if Java reaches
> its potential), PalmLinux may end up being the answer to a
> question no one is asking in 2007.

Moto doesn't have a real Linux initiative. Nokia's the player to watch in the Linux phone space, as I've mentioned before. I'd have guessed Nokia before ACCESS, myself.

Motorola is playing the field and will probably stumble into a decent Linux platform sooner or later. This OS business isn't exactly rocket science. Nokia has been clever enough to start tapping the Open Source Movement right away while maintaining some control over its IP. Properly nurtured, Nokia will likely produce a stable Linux OS long before PalmLinux goes gold. Why pay for something you're confident you can do faster + cheaper yourself?

> WinMob Treos will signal the death of the PalmOS platform as
> we knew it.

I'd imagine that PalmLinux is more likely to do that. About the only thing the WinMob Treo is going to signal is confusion on Palm's part.

Let me simplify it so even you can understand, Marty:

PalmOS Treo = Palm. Palm = the PalmOS platform. By transitive property, PalmOS Treo = the PalmOS platform. Cannibalize PalmOS Treo sales with Windows Mobile Treo sales and the PalmOS platform is dead, almost overnight. As developers sense the smell of death upon the PalmOS platform, they will abandon it in droves, converting to Windows Mobile. With PalmLinux at least two years from ditching its vaporware status, Cobalt DOA and PalmOS 5 a hacked-up, buggy deck of cards, it's Game Over for PalmOS. I realize the truth hurts, Marty, but you need to advance through the Grief Process and stop with the Denial, already. Oy.


> Again, PalmLinux in 2007 seems realistic, but with the
> competition not exactly standing still, I would not be
> surprised to find PalmLinux greeted by yawns and developer
> indifference in 2007.

Eh, there's not much in the way of competition on the Linux front. TrollTech and MontaVista seem to have had a falling out and Moto's not making much headway (and doesn't seem to care that much.)

Nokia _did_ get FCC approval for the 770, though. That'll be interesting to watch.

Care to bet who has a STABLE Linux phone OS out first, Marty? PalmSource, Motorola or Nokia. Put up or SHUT UP, Marty. What's that? Can't hear you, Marty.

> The release of a slew of Cobalt devices ASAP is needed to
> keep PalmOS app developers from letting the platform wither,
> but what I've seen of Cobalt running on real hardware has
> been disappointing - to put it mildly.

Well, there won't be any winmob treos in consumers hands in the next two quarters and there won't be any cobalt phones to speak of, especially in the us market. Nokia seems to be content to go slow with Linux, testing the water with a non-phone device.

Windows Mobile Treos will likely be available in a few months. PalmLinux devices won't be available for a few YEARS. Think about it, Mr. Fouts.

ACCESS/Apollo/the-company-soon-to-be-formerly-known-as-PalmSource or whatever it'll be called still has an open window.

The question is, as it has been all along, whether or not they can get through it before it closes in '08.

Open window? Don't be delusional. If PalmLinux does not ship by 2006, it has no hope in He11 of making a dent in the marketplace. We will probably be filing PalmLinux away with Cobalt, BeOS, Copeland, OS/2 and all the other failures as OSes that "coulda, shoulda been a contenda". Pathetic.

By the way, Skippy, I'm impressed. quite the balancing act you're doing here, trying to act as if you're still holding the same views you held all along. Glad you're back on form.

As I said before, I make the predictions, back them up with evidence and don't run away if I'm proved to be wrong. Nothing I've said changes. Palm simply got outflanked and was dumb enough to lose control of PalmOS.

I hope you and the other PalmSource codemonkeys finally learn how to produce good code QUICKLY, Marty. Time is about to run out.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 10:57:03 PM # Q
>> jeez Skippy, if you're going to run a web page through
>> Google's BETA Japanese to English translator, you should at
>> least let people know you did that.

> What do you see when you go to the site I referenced in my
> previous post with the translation, Marty?

The page you ran through Google, Skippy. Next time, credit Google for the translation.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 11:01:26 PM # Q
> Motorola is playing the field and will probably stumble into
> a decent Linux platform sooner or later.

Maybe. Bet you're not going to see where it comes from either.

> This OS business isn't exactly rocket science.

You're right, Skippy. I've done rocket science. OSes are much more fun. Harder, but more fun.

> Nokia has been clever enough to start tapping the Open
> Source Movement right away while maintaining some control
> over its IP.

Not 'right away', Skippy. Nokia started to take advantage of open source fairly recently. IBM's been at it much longer, for instance.

> Properly nurtured, Nokia will likely produce a stable Linux
> OS long before PalmLinux goes gold.

Unfortunately, _for you_, it appears to be rocket science.

There's already a stable Linux for ARM, Skippy. Has been for some little time. Nokia, as you pointed out above, is taking advantage of it, not producing it.

> PalmOS Treo = Palm. Palm = the PalmOS platform. By transitive
> property, PalmOS Treo = the PalmOS platform.

Once again, Skippy proves math not to be his strong suit. No, Skippy, it's not even a good metaphor, let alone good math.

> Cannibalize PalmOS Treo sales with Windows Mobile Treo sales
> and the PalmOS platform is dead, almost overnight.

So you've said. You've never offered a convincing argument for this, and you've made it clear you're not taking much into account, but you have, in fact, said that.

First, winmob treo's at least six months off, as far as consumers are concerned. Second, palmOS treo sales aren't going to be 'canibalized' by winmob treo for months after that, even if they are, because there's the little detail of carrier acceptance. Third, PalmOS has a breather now that PalmSource has a new owner.

> Care to bet who has a STABLE Linux phone OS out first, Marty?

Poor Skippy, not paying attention again. PalmSource already has stable Linux phones on the market, in Asia, Skippy. Nokia doesn't.

> Windows Mobile Treos will likely be available in a few
> months. PalmLinux devices won't be available for a few YEARS.
> Think about it, Mr. Fouts.

not 'few months' Skippy. In consumers hands: not for at least six months, if they ever ship at all. (you really need to start scanning the fcc site, if you're going to make predictions of when phones ship.)

> As I said before, I make the predictions, back them up with
> evidence and don't run away if I'm proved to be wrong.

Except your predictions that I worked for Palm, that I was a consultant, that Palm would buy PalmSource in '06, that all palmos licenses would be voided if PalmSource got bought, ... sure.

> I hope you and the other PalmSource codemonkeys finally learn
> how to produce good code QUICKLY, Marty. Time is about to run
> out.

Oh Skippy, you're far too funny. You still haven't figured it out, have you. I'm not a codemonkey Skippy. I'm not on anybody's schedule for turning out code. Even after I've said who I am, you don't get what I do.

It's very very funny to see you make all these pronouncements about what's going to happen in OS land when you don't know anything about OS development. Please keep it up Skippy.

Oh, about time running out? Didn't you hear, PalmSource has a buyer. Time just got extended.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 11:09:05 PM # Q
>> jeez Skippy, if you're going to run a web page through
>> Google's BETA Japanese to English translator, you should at
>> least let people know you did that.

> What do you see when you go to the site I referenced in my
> previous post with the translation, Marty?

The page you ran through Google, Skippy. Next time, credit Google for the translation.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department


I believe it's time for you to get some professional help, Mr. Fouts. Remember: it's not your fault - it's a "chemical imbalance"...



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 11:14:59 PM # Q
The page you ran through Google, Skippy. Next time, credit Google for the translation.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

By the way, Marty the translation was by http://world.altavista.com/ - and links to the translated pages are not available. Boo Hoo Hoo!

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Un****ingbelievable.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2006 4:32:51 PM # Q
Your comments have gotten weaker and weaker with every post. Perhaps its time you beg Dianne Hackborn for some help in formulating cogent responses here. You're nothing but an embarassment to PalmSource - assuming you still will have a job in the near future. Please keep it up though, Marty - the presence of people like you in PalmSource is precisely why the company is floundering.

Oops.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Wonder why did Palm pass on it?

wilco @ 9/9/2005 2:04:25 AM # Q
Surely Palmsource could have approach Palm, Inc. for a rival bid... wonder why Palm pass on it... Sure 83% premium may seem steep but it's like the lifeblood of your company... after all, it committed itself for is it five years to pay for the OS and just paid $30 million for the brand... and with Palmsource's throve of IT (Palm OS, BeOS, ChinaMobilesoft properties), I believe $300 million+ is kinda cheap...

Surely Palm could raise that amount, what with the Treo sales going through the roof... At the very least, it could have use it's own stock as a leverage (part cash/part stock) deal...

Hope, this will hasten and not delay 'Palm on Linux' launch...

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 2:15:56 AM # Q
It makes no sense for Palm to buy PalmSource. It certainly makes no sense for them to get into a bidding war.

I doubt that the ACCESS buyout will have any impact one way or another on PalmLinux.



RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 2:18:25 AM # Q
Perhaps Palm's passing on PalmSource shows how rotten things are in the state of BEnmark? (how do ya like that one, Voice?)

Maybe PoL isn't progressing as nicely as hoped...or, and I'm sticking to my guns on this one, they (Palm) REALLY are arrogant to think that a warmed over WinMob Treo is going to carry them back to the stratospheric heights last seen in the glory days of the Palm V. A 240*240 WinMob Treo for a flagship device, a series of Garnet devices on life support at the low end and PalmSource very quietly slipping out of their grasp. Not a great way to wrap up the year.

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 9/9/2005 2:24:30 AM # Q
Why would Palm buy PalmSource? That 83% premium was considered worth it for one reason and one reason alone: the market knows Palm OS for Linux will sell well to vendors other than Palm, particularly in the large Asian market. If Palm bought PalmSource it would throw cold water on future licensing plans of competing vendors who would be reluctant to tie their fortunes to a competitor. The value of the acquisition would be dissipated by the fact that the acquiring company was Palm.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
hackbod @ 9/9/2005 2:44:12 AM # Q
At this point I don't know any more about this deal than all of you (we found out about it tonight when the press release went out), but I can offer some personal observations that might give some context in which to interpret it.

Please note that I am not talking for PalmSource at all, these are entirely my personal opinions, and I am probably completely wrong. :)

First, you need to understand what is currently going on in the mobile phone market. Currently most phone device manufacturers own both the software and hardware they are doing. They design the hardware and software together for the device. They will license some pieces of the software (maybe a realtime kernel from someone, probably a web browser from someone else like Access), but they are essentially putting these things together into a custom piece of software for the device. They may also hire someone else to do the software, but it is still the same thing: custom software for a device.

As of today, the biggest piece of third party software that the hardware manufacturers license is the web browser -- that is in fact the single most complicated piece of software in most current phones. This is the market that Access is in. To give some perspective on it, another company I know of who does mobile device web browser software currently sells more copies of their software than Microsoft sells copies of Windows.

This situation is starting to change, however. As the software for these devices becomes increasingly complex, it becomes harder and harder for the hardware manufacturers to do all of the software themselves. So they license more and more pieces of software, glueing them together, and trying to get all of these different pieces to work together is still a huge burden.

As a result of this, the phone manufacturers are starting to realize that they need a software platform. This way someone else can take care of a lot of the really difficult software problems, allowing them to share the burden with others as well as easing integration issues by having some kind of common framework that others can write applications against.

At the same time, the "mobile device web browser" market is becoming increasingly commoditized. They sell a ridiculous numbers of copies of the software, but the money they get per copy is also ridiculously low, and there is increasing competition in the space, including from open source. And if the hardware manufacturers are moving to a more platform-based software stack, just taking a free browser like Firefox and using that is now a much more viable approach, especially if the platform you are using is, say, Linux.

So people are suddenly starting to realize that there may be a lot of money in a "mobile device platform", and the mobile phone world is shifting so that getting into that platform market is very attractive to someone like Access. At the same time, a software platform is much more valuable when it is not tied to a hardware manufacturer, since it has the opportunity to be on many more devices (unless that hardware manufacturer owns 80% of the market, like Apple does with MP3 players). This was, of course, one of the motivations for splitting Palm in the first place.

Thus, if you are looking for buyers for a software platform, you probably won't get as much money from a hardware manufacturer since they won't see as much value in at. Not to mention that today most of them are not too sure they really want to be doing that kind of stuff anyway.

Basically I think the handheld device market is currently similar, in this regard, to the PC market in the 80s. Remember that back then most hardware manufacturers also did their own software (Apple, Commodore, Atari, etc). As that software became more complicated, and the advantages of a platform (in having a common, consistent foundation for applications to use) became more pronounced, Microsoft came to dominate the market as a purely software company.

We've known for a while at PalmSource that this is where the market was going to go, and have been trying to position ourselves to be able to take advantage of it. Clearly that hasn't so far been nearly as successful as we would have liked, and I think there are three main reasons for this: (1) we were too far ahead of the market; (2) the hardware manufacturers have learned some lessons from the PC market; and (3) we haven't had a phone-centric UI.

So (1) is pretty self-explanatory. As much as we want to get into the mainstream of the phone market, today those phones are basically all written with custom RTOS kernels and custom and licensed software integrated on top. Though the software complexity has made this approach problematic for a while, that is what the hardware manufacturers are familiar with and so they have been dragging that approach as far as they could make it limp along. I think Motorola is probably farther along than most in getting away from this, in their current efforts with Linux.

Which brings us to (2). The handset manufacturers know very well what Microsoft did to the PC hardware market, by having complete ownership of the platform: they utterly commoditized it. The PC business is now a very low-margin, utterly cost-sensitive market. The handset manufacturers don't want this to happen to them, and they are starting to think they have found a solution in the form of Linux. If they can have more control over the hardware, then they can customize it and otherwise differentiate their devices. The interest in Linux is driven much more by that kind of thinking than by, "oh look it's free as in beer!".

As a result, the hardware people are quite suspicious of Microsoft. Though probably not as much as they are as Symbian -- who you'll recall is essentially owned by another hardware company they are competing with. And though they may be a little less suspicious of PalmSource, still (a) Cobalt was just as much of a lock-in as Microsoft software; and (b) PalmSource is much, much smaller than Microsoft. So maybe we could make promises that we wouldn't grow up to be big meanies like Microsoft, but it's difficult to make a business deal based on that. :)

This situation is one of the significant reasons for us to switch to Linux, and so far I am pretty convinced that it is proving to be the right thing to do. On the technical side it's a lot more work on our part, but from a business perspective it has a lot of advantages.

That leaves us with (3), which is probably not something I can say much about. :) I'll just say that, though a Treo kind of UI is fine for what it is, my person opinion is that it is -not- a phone, and that kind of UI is not going to fly in the bulk of the cell phone market. (Indeed, one of the licensees we talk with has made it clear to us that they don't consider the Treo to be a phone product; I believe they refer to it as a "mobile PDA".) So this is something that needs to be addressed, and is an ingredient in things like the CMS acquisition and the Rome UI that was mentioned at the last developer's conference.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Software Frameworks Engineer

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 3:20:45 AM # Q
Perhaps Palm's passing on PalmSource shows how rotten things are in the state of BEnmark? (how do ya like that one, Voice?)

Good one. Benhamou and the Holy Be Engineers are not worthy.

Maybe PoL isn't progressing as nicely as hoped...or, and I'm sticking to my guns on this one, they (Palm) REALLY are arrogant to think that a warmed over WinMob Treo is going to carry them back to the stratospheric heights last seen in the glory days of the Palm V. A 240*240 WinMob Treo for a flagship device, a series of Garnet devices on life support at the low end and PalmSource very quietly slipping out of their grasp. Not a great way to wrap up the year.

I believe Palm was simply outbid for PalmSource. The WinMob Treo is a done deal. Short term profits at the expense of undermining the PalmOS platform. I agree with you in that Palm's "strategy" is a recipe for disaster.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 3:54:16 AM # Q
David, your arguments are well reasoned, but I think you've got the reason for the buyout wrong. I don't think it's PalmLinux that ACCESS was after, but rather, they were after access.

(Sorry for the bad pun, it's late.)



RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 4:04:14 AM # Q
I guess if I'm going to argue with hackbod in public, I may as well come out of the closet. ;)

In all of his guessing, Skippy did get one thing right besides the spelling of my name. I do, in fact, do Linux-ish things for PalmSource. ;) (I'm the NAND/filesystem guy.)

Anyway, a correction, from history:

The story of M$ dominating the market because they were a software company and hardware companies didn't want to be in that business anymore is a neatly wrapped package. Unfortunately, it's not what happened.

It was IBM that established the dominance of the "PC" (upper case) over the personal computer -- purely as the act of a hardware company. They had the muscle to do their own software, and the PC was the only product in their line where they didn't.

It was the IBM PC, and not M$'s OSes that caused all of the hadware vendors to do their thing. It was, in fact, the BIOS and desire for "exact PC compatibility" that put Intel and IBM in the forefront of the "personal computer revolution".

Then IBM dropped the ball, and Microsoft picked it up and ran with it. It wasn't even M$'s ball. It was one they licensed from a company that did operating systems and then resold to IBM, and, eventually, all the PC clones. (Ironically, in more than 35 years of IBM watching, the PC is the only ball I've ever seen them really and truely drop.)

I haven't done a line count on current browsers, but given that the Linux kernel contains nearly 50 megabytes of source code, I find it difficult to imagine that a browser, well, at least a competently written one, could be any bigger. I'm sure mozilla is. ;)

Personally, I don't see the phone market at all like the PC market in the 80s, for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is Linux. In the 80s, we were just figuring out the whole idea of portable OSes when the PC came along and set us back a few years.

Now, highschool kids put together pretty competent "platforms". It's not like the 80s when only a handful of us were lucky enough to have the kind of money that allowed us to have the sort of workstations that are now routinely available off the shelf for a grand. None of this stuff is new any more.

Well, not entirely true. The one thing that's new is that people are putting all this crap onto itty-bitty devices with no hard drives, crappy displays, horrible hardware UIs, and significant power demands.

As far as Linux freeing up the hardware makers to innovate in the hardware: I know two things from first hand experience:

1) They do believe that
2) It's not true

A lot of people are playing in the "let's paste a UI on Linux and call it a cellphone OS" space. There are three credible efforts in this area. IMO, the two to watch are PalmSource and Maemo. (Yeah, I know, Maemo's not for phones -- yet)

That said, I don't believe that PalmLinux is why Access is buying PalmSource.

And no, as a grunt, I don't know any more about this than any of you. I just know what I read on Reuters.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/9/2005 7:02:33 AM # Q
The premium being paid for PSRC seems...excessive.

Very strange.

[and an excellent example of why I hold no trading positions overnight nor have ever held a position in now UBER-volatile PSRC! Yow.]

But for those saying PALM's now out of the picture with PalmOS that comentary by the CEO of PALM up above says they're still there - contracts can be changed...

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 11:39:09 PM # Q
The premium being paid for PSRC seems...excessive.

Very strange.

[and an excellent example of why I hold no trading positions overnight nor have ever held a position in now UBER-volatile PSRC! Yow.]

But for those saying PALM's now out of the picture with PalmOS that comentary by the CEO of PALM up above says they're still there - contracts can be changed...

The price seems ridiculous, but perhaps not in a few possible scenarios:

1) Access-as-the-New-Palm theory: Access becomes a more intelligent Palm: contracts with HTC, etc and becomes a one-stop supplier of phones to carriers. Nice way to segue out of the browser business now that the power of future hardware will soon allow open source browsers to run acceptably, "Netscaping" Access' NetFront browser.

Fly in the ointment: Palm's renegotiated contract with PalmSource allows them to keep their clutches on PalmOS for 5 more years. For the "one-stop supplier" idea to be effective a company needs (Apple-style) COMPLETE control over both OS and hardware.

2) Access-as-puppet theory: Access acquires PalmSource + runs it into the ground for the benefit of a shadowy Redmond-colored figure lurking in the background.

3) Access-as-a-better-Symbian theory: Great OS + huge app library + good developer community + fair developer tools; without overbearing spectre of Nokia trying to run the show = instant mobile platform IF packaged with ALL the ingredients (as I've previously suggested that PalmSource have rolled into PalmOS). It wouldn't take a lot of effort to make PalmOS into a killer mobile platform. PalmSource was too clueless to see this. A better-run company might have better luck.

4) Access-as-hostagetaker: I wonder if Palm would be willing to reconsider how badly it needs PalmOS and pay Access an extra premium to regain control of PalmOS now that Access has abducted it while Palm was sleeping?


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 1:38:11 AM # Q
Perhaps Palm's passing on PalmSource shows how rotten things are in the state of BEnmark? (how do ya like that one, Voice?)

Good one. Benhamou and the Holy Be Engineers are not worthy.

Maybe PoL isn't progressing as nicely as hoped...or, and I'm sticking to my guns on this one, they (Palm) REALLY are arrogant to think that a warmed over WinMob Treo is going to carry them back to the stratospheric heights last seen in the glory days of the Palm V. A 240*240 WinMob Treo for a flagship device, a series of Garnet devices on life support at the low end and PalmSource very quietly slipping out of their grasp. Not a great way to wrap up the year.

I believe Palm was simply outbid for PalmSource. The WinMob Treo is a done deal. Short term profits at the expense of undermining the PalmOS platform. I agree with you in that Palm's "strategy" is a recipe for disaster.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

Beersy: Buy a vowel
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 1:40:55 AM # Q
Why would Palm buy PalmSource? That 83% premium was considered worth it for one reason and one reason alone: the market knows Palm OS for Linux will sell well to vendors other than Palm, particularly in the large Asian market. If Palm bought PalmSource it would throw cold water on future licensing plans of competing vendors who would be reluctant to tie their fortunes to a competitor. The value of the acquisition would be dissipated by the fact that the acquiring company was Palm.

Beersy, in case you haven't figured it out yet, the REAL money is in selling hardware to carriers. The mobile OS business is about to get pretty shaky as developmet of "free" Linux phone OSes continue. As others have said, "It's hard to compete with free". The way to compete is by providing carriers with COMPLETE solutions that painlessly give them product to offer to their customers: a proven industry-standard framework (Palm platform) + "free" open source OS underpinnings (ARMLinux) + slick hardware (HTC).

Which is the better business model: Eking out a living selling copies of your mobile OS to cellphone hardware manufacturers at $5/copy, waiting for the day that they unceremoniously dump you for "free Linux" or selling a complete package (OS + hardware) to carriers for $25 - $50 profit/phone and maintaining complete control over the platform? It's not about making yourself attractive to hardware manufacturers - it's about making a platform you control (completely) attractive to CARRIERS. Now do you get it?

The Treo 600 was a brilliant first step in making PalmOS a viable platform for carriers, but Palm was too lazy/stupid/underfunded to take this to the next level by giving carriers a full lineup of PalmOS smartphones and not-so-smarthones. Had Palm locked up ownership of PalmOS it could have been in the drivers' seat: in total control of an increasingly popular PalmOS platform available to carriers and also able to offer Windows Mobile hardware to anyone that wants it.

As I posted before in this thread, there are a few potential reasons why Access would have outbid PalmSource. Whichever scenario is correct, the fact that Palm was outbid is NOT reassuring.

Something's rotten in the state of Palm™.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
PenguinPowered @ 9/10/2005 2:03:14 AM # Q
> Fly in the ointment: Palm's renegotiated contract with
> PalmSource allows them to keep their clutches on PalmOS for 5
> more years. For the "one-stop supplier" idea to be effective
> a company needs (Apple-style) COMPLETE control over both OS
> and hardware.

You might want to tell Michael Dell that his business model doesn't work.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Try again, Marty. You can do better. Well, I hope you can...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 3:24:15 AM # Q
> Fly in the ointment: Palm's renegotiated contract with
> PalmSource allows them to keep their clutches on PalmOS for 5
> more years. For the "one-stop supplier" idea to be effective
> a company needs (Apple-style) COMPLETE control over both OS
> and hardware.

You might want to tell Michael Dell that his business model doesn't work.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Unfortunately, Dell is a unique case (as you are fully aware). Cutthroat marketing, just-in-time production, efficiency, good value/good quality (in the early days), economies of scale, favored status from suppliers, visionary leadership, merciless competitiveness, innovation, good timing and a little luck all helped make Dell become what it is today. Last I checked, Palm possessed none of these attributes other than a lot of luck (finding the original secret recipe with PalmOS + the Pilot form factor 10 years ago and then 2 years ago finding the Treo life raft that it is now clinging to so desperately). The odds of another Dell coming along in the World of Mobile Devices (WMD) is approximately ZERO. This is now a commodity market, just like computers are, Bubba.

Try again, Marty. You can do better. I had such high hopes for you. Please don't disappoint me.




TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

Deconstructing Dianne's Defense
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 6:49:59 AM # Q
At this point I don't know any more about this deal than all of you (we found out about it tonight when the press release went out), but I can offer some personal observations that might give some context in which to interpret it.

Please note that I am not talking for PalmSource at all, these are entirely my personal opinions, and I am probably completely wrong. :)

Nice to see you back here, DK. I was afraid you had run away for good after you got roughed up here a few months ago. ;-O

First, you need to understand what is currently going on in the mobile phone market. Currently most phone device manufacturers own both the software and hardware they are doing. They design the hardware and software together for the device. They will license some pieces of the software (maybe a realtime kernel from someone, probably a web browser from someone else like Access), but they are essentially putting these things together into a custom piece of software for the device. They may also hire someone else to do the software, but it is still the same thing: custom software for a device.

But things seem to be pretty commoditized and simple these days, DK. Between the different flavors of Symbian (including UIQ) and in the near future different flavors of Linux, designing a phone is largely about coming up with your unique hardware (like Motorola's RAZR) to differentiate your product and picking an off-the-shelf OS + apps. You also seem to gloss over the contribution that Java can and already does make in helping the whole phone software production step to be as painless as possible. Make your hardware, pick your Symbian/Linux/Windows Mobile OS, pick your Opera/NetFront browser, badda-boom badda-bing, presto-chango, pull your fancy new phone outta that hat/your a$$. As things get commoditized (desktop-style) the software part of development should become as "difficult" as it is in specifying Windows XP + a given BIOS for a vendor's particular shade-of-beige desktop.

As of today, the biggest piece of third party software that the hardware manufacturers license is the web browser -- that is in fact the single most complicated piece of software in most current phones. This is the market that Access is in. To give some perspective on it, another company I know of who does mobile device web browser software currently sells more copies of their software than Microsoft sells copies of Windows.

Yes, Opera kicks serious a$$. Too bad it isn't available for PalmOS (not including that de-cojoned proxy version that was recently quietly released into the wild a few weeks ago).

This situation is starting to change, however. As the software for these devices becomes increasingly complex, it becomes harder and harder for the hardware manufacturers to do all of the software themselves. So they license more and more pieces of software, glueing them together, and trying to get all of these different pieces to work together is still a huge burden.

I think you're exaggerating things more than just a tad, Mistress.

As a result of this, the phone manufacturers are starting to realize that they need a software platform. This way someone else can take care of a lot of the really difficult software problems, allowing them to share the burden with others as well as easing integration issues by having some kind of common framework that others can write applications against.

They already HAVE software platforms, DK! Ever heard of Symbian? And perhaps you may be familiar with a little OS known as Linux. And another one called Windows Mobile. The beauty of using major OSes on your phone is that you don't have to do a lot of the development work yourself AND you get a bunch of off-the-shelf software to choose from to add to your phone. Somehow you seem to be under the impression that PalmLinux is the only OS that will help simplify things for manufacturers.

At the same time, the "mobile device web browser" market is becoming increasingly commoditized. They sell a ridiculous numbers of copies of the software, but the money they get per copy is also ridiculously low, and there is increasing competition in the space, including from open source. And if the hardware manufacturers are moving to a more platform-based software stack, just taking a free browser like Firefox and using that is now a much more viable approach, especially if the platform you are using is, say, Linux.

Agree with you 100%. This is one plausible theory behind Access' shocking move to acquire PalmSource's decaying carcass.

So people are suddenly starting to realize that there may be a lot of money in a "mobile device platform", and the mobile phone world is shifting so that getting into that platform market is very attractive to someone like Access. At the same time, a software platform is much more valuable when it is not tied to a hardware manufacturer, since it has the opportunity to be on many more devices (unless that hardware manufacturer owns 80% of the market, like Apple does with MP3 players). This was, of course, one of the motivations for splitting Palm in the first place.

Yes, the Nokia connection is one of the knocks against Symbian. But Microsoft's Windows Mobile doesn't have this downside, does it, DK? Plus it has the Trusted By Billions™ Microsoft name on it. Plus it promises ever-increasing integration with other Microsoft products (like MS Exchange Server, for free "push" email). Hmmmmm... I wonder what the downside of Windows Mobile is for a manufacturer looking for a modern Plug and Play™ OS for mobile devices?

Thus, if you are looking for buyers for a software platform, you probably won't get as much money from a hardware manufacturer since they won't see as much value in at. Not to mention that today most of them are not too sure they really want to be doing that kind of stuff anyway.

Au contraire, Mistress. If you have a good, widely used OS like PalmOS, an intelligent hardware company (especially one with a history using said OS) would be wise to buy that OS to help leverage the sales of their hardware. The fact that Access would buy PalmSource instead of Palm, Motorola, Nokia, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, etc is truly amazing. The fact that Palm and the big cellphone manufactures balked at purchasing Palmsource suggest one of three things:

1) PalmOS is felt to have no future as a mobile OS.
2) Other OSes are felt to be "better" (more flexible, more stable, more developed, cheaper, more "open", more whatever) in some way than PalmOS.
3) The asking price was greater than the perceived value of ownership of the current PalmOS + versions of PalmOS now under development.
4) The cellphone manufacturers don't know what they're doing.

Call me crazy, but I'm not betting that "4" is correct.

Basically I think the handheld device market is currently similar, in this regard, to the PC market in the 80s. Remember that back then most hardware manufacturers also did their own software (Apple, Commodore, Atari, etc). As that software became more complicated, and the advantages of a platform (in having a common, consistent foundation for applications to use) became more pronounced, Microsoft came to dominate the market as a purely software company.

Ummmm...try again, Mistress. Again, we ALREADY have platforms for phones, DK. The current situation is more like the 90s with Windows, MacOS, Linux and OS/2. PalmLinux is analagous to... BeOS. ;-O The main questions right now are "Will one platform ultimately dominate the way Windows has in the desktop world?" and "Will an open source OS dominate in cellphones or will they fail to capture "Joe Sixpack" and "Betty Budweiser" the way Linux has failed in the desktop world?

We've known for a while at PalmSource that this is where the market was going to go, and have been trying to position ourselves to be able to take advantage of it. Clearly that hasn't so far been nearly as successful as we would have liked, and I think there are three main reasons for this: (1) we were too far ahead of the market; (2) the hardware manufacturers have learned some lessons from the PC market; and (3) we haven't had a phone-centric UI.

Too bad you wasted the past 4 years on that offal code named "Cobalt". So you think Cobalt "hasn't so far been nearly as successful as we would have liked"? Is that like saying, "The voyage of the Titanic hasn't so far nearly as successful as they would have liked"? News flash, DK: The Titanic SANK. And so did Cobalt. Sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, Kiddo... And Cobalt did not sink because "(1) we were too far ahead of the market; (2) the hardware manufacturers have learned some lessons from the PC market; and (3) we haven't had a phone-centric UI". It sank because it was a buggy, delayed, demanding (of developers + hardware manufacturers), slow OS that was fatally flawed by its choice of a proprietary non-multitasking kernel instead of a Unix variant. Period. Time for you to cut the B.S., Mistress.

So (1) is pretty self-explanatory. As much as we want to get into the mainstream of the phone market, today those phones are basically all written with custom RTOS kernels and custom and licensed software integrated on top. Though the software complexity has made this approach problematic for a while, that is what the hardware manufacturers are familiar with and so they have been dragging that approach as far as they could make it limp along. I think Motorola is probably farther along than most in getting away from this, in their current efforts with Linux.

Please stop blaming manufacturers. PalmSource failed to produce a stripped-down stable version of the Treo OS and market it successfully to manufacturers. Who's fault is that? Look in the mirror, DK. That's who's fault it is.

Which brings us to (2). The handset manufacturers know very well what Microsoft did to the PC hardware market, by having complete ownership of the platform: they utterly commoditized it. The PC business is now a very low-margin, utterly cost-sensitive market. The handset manufacturers don't want this to happen to them, and they are starting to think they have found a solution in the form of Linux. If they can have more control over the hardware, then they can customize it and otherwise differentiate their devices. The interest in Linux is driven much more by that kind of thinking than by, "oh look it's free as in beer!".

Nonsense. So now you're blaming Microsoft for PalmSource's failure? Who will you blame next? The Men In Black? In case you didn't notice, cellphones are ALREADY a commoditized market. Manufacturers make money selling stylish, expensive, gimmicky phones to fashion-conscious customers. Do you really think that Joe Sixpack or Betty Budweiser knows or even CARES what phone OS is running on their Motorola RAZR? Don't be silly. You could put the Newton OS (or - God forbid - BeOS) on a RAZR and people would still be lining up to buy it. Likewise, no one knows or cares what's running on that "free" phone they got for signing up with a 1 year contract. If the phone makes + receives calls, that's probably good enough. Yes, now that hgh speed data is coming from carriers features like MobiTV, video conferencing, Internet and email will be important, but unfortunately for PalmSource any modern OS should be able to handle these features with ease.

As a result, the hardware people are quite suspicious of Microsoft.

You're projecting again, DK.

Though probably not as much as they are as Symbian -- who you'll recall is essentially owned by another hardware company they are competing with.

True.

And though they may be a little less suspicious of PalmSource, still (a) Cobalt was just as much of a lock-in as Microsoft software; and (b) PalmSource is much, much smaller than Microsoft.

Wow. An honest assessment from a PalmSource employee. How refreshing. I hope Marty Fouts is taking notes...

So maybe we could make promises that we wouldn't grow up to be big meanies like Microsoft, but it's difficult to make a business deal based on that. :)

Ummmm... and I suppose PalmSource is all about "people helping people" rather than PROFIT, right Mistress? Excuse me while I unroll my eyes from the back of my head.

This situation is one of the significant reasons for us to switch to Linux, and so far I am pretty convinced that it is proving to be the right thing to do. On the technical side it's a lot more work on our part, but from a business perspective it has a lot of advantages.

Nice attempt at Michael Mace-style SPIN, DK. In reality, PalmSource was forced to throw Cobalt into the dumpster because it was an unsalvageable steaming heap of feces that no major licensee was willing to touch with a ten foot pole. Kinda hard to stay in business if no one is buying your core (and soon to be only) product, isn't it?

That leaves us with (3), which is probably not something I can say much about. :) I'll just say that, though a Treo kind of UI is fine for what it is, my person opinion is that it is -not- a phone, and that kind of UI is not going to fly in the bulk of the cell phone market. (Indeed, one of the licensees we talk with has made it clear to us that they don't consider the Treo to be a phone product; I believe they refer to it as a "mobile PDA".) So this is something that needs to be addressed, and is an ingredient in things like the CMS acquisition and the Rome UI that was mentioned at the last developer's conference.

B.S. The Treo 600 user interface is, quite frankly, BRILLIANT and could adapt well to use in more traditional cellphones as long as they have the D-Pad. I think you're (as usual) going to waste a LOT of time (which you DON'T have) chasing your tail with this Rome UI nonsense. PalmSource needs to learn the lesson Be and its engineers steadfastly refused to learn: Keep It Simple, Stupid. The D-Pad UI works very well as-is. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, why not have PalmSource spend their energy, time and engineering resources on something else? Like getting PalmLinux FINISHED and in the hands of users before you end up repeating the same nonsense we've seen with Copeland, BeOS and Cobalt.


--
Dianne
PalmSource Software Frameworks Engineer

Nice to see you convinced Marty Fouts to finally stop his sleazy charade of posting as a smarmy "anonymous insider".

Even though I usually disagree with many of your statements, I truly appreciate your efforts to explain the inner workings of PalmOS and PalmSource (as you see it), Ms. Hackborn. I wish you well in all your future endeavors.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
PenguinPowered @ 9/10/2005 5:13:26 PM # Q
Wow, Skippy, that's some of the funniest material you've posted to date. Since I've been chastised in the past for boring readers by 'goading' you to your usual childish behavior, I'll limit my comments to your technical naivete.

First, Skippy, the PC business was already a cut throat commodity business when Michael Dell got into it, so your argument that there can't be a Dell in the phone business because it's a commodity cut throat business is no more than your usual misunderstanding of business.

Second, Skippy, your numbers, as usual, are wrong. In this case, your numbers on profitability on software versus hardware. Ironic that a Microsoft fan such as yourself would get that one backwards.

Third, Skippy, when you wrote "in the near future different flavors of Linux, designing a phone is largely about coming up with your unique hardware (like Motorola's RAZR) to differentiate your product and picking an off-the-shelf OS + apps." you wrote your funniest line ever.

Thanks for reminding us that you have no insight at all into how the consumer electronics business operates.

Poor Skippy, confused again. In a commoditized hardware market, product differentiation does _not_ come from "unique hardware". So either you're wrong and the hardware market isn't commoditized yet, or you're wrong about how one goes about designing a phone. (Actually, you're wrong about both, because, as usual, you lost the point in your attempt to oversimplify.)

Since you're starting from a premise that far off base, it's no surprise that your arguments get farther and farther from reality, so we'll just leave it at pointing that out for now.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Come on, Marty. Is that the best you can do?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 6:31:21 PM # Q
Ask DK for a little help again. (She seems to be a tad more eloquent - and a LOT more intelligent - than you are.)

Tell her: The "safe word" is Java.

;-O

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 9/11/2005 7:00:25 PM # Q
PenguinPower wrote:
A lot of people are playing in the "let's paste a UI on Linux and call it a cellphone OS" space. There are three credible efforts in this area. IMO, the two to watch are PalmSource and Maemo.

Hey Marty, I'd enjoy reading your analysis of why you see PalmSource and Maemo as credible frameworks for mobile Linux and not QTopia.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
PenguinPowered @ 9/11/2005 8:56:54 PM # Q
It's not a particularly deep analysis: Nokia and PalmSource have a lot of experience with phones. PalmSource also has a lot of experience with PDAs. Trolltech's prior experience set consists of graphics libraries. They simply have a steeper learning curve to climb, imo.

I would definitely placd Trolltech's chances above that of the open source community, but I see them as a distant third.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Who will control PalmOS in 2006? It will be...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/15/2005 4:20:46 PM # Q
Will Palm regain control of PalmOS? Will Motorola get it? Or Access?

This soap opera will conclude in a few weeks. Don't miss the SHOCKING season finale!

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
hkklife @ 10/15/2005 5:10:35 PM # Q
I think Palm will buy the IP to FrankenGarnet and the remnants of Cobalt for ~$120 mil(ish). Then they'll try and pursue a dual strategy of "FrankenGarnetbalt" (reworked, more stable, still single-tasking but with more Cobalt bits integrated) and their own Plinux solution.

Think of Palm's own Linux as analogous to OS4 running 320*320 or Graffiti 2= good for only a few models as a stopgap solution until something better/more robust comes along from the good crew at Access.

I cannot see what Moto would hope to gain aside from short-term attention and even more stumbling blocks on their way to becoming a leaner, meaner, more pfotiable company. Really, Motorola has had a very brief attention span as of late---"We're going into networking!---No, home theatre!--No, plasma screens!--No, MP3 players!--No, the Palm OS market!" as they've sought out "new" markets to play in.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
AdamaDBrown @ 10/16/2005 2:26:44 AM # Q
Don't miss the SHOCKING season finale!

This isn't like the SciFi Channel deal where they advertise the "season finale" when it's really just the last episode before the fall hiatus, is it? 'Cause I hate that.

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
svrontis @ 10/16/2005 2:54:42 AM # Q
Thanks, The Vat of Refuse - with your wacky humour, you should be writing sitcoms for the Fox network. Bozo.

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 9:00:23 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
I think Palm will buy the IP to FrankenGarnet and the remnants of Cobalt for ~$120 mil(ish). Then they'll try and pursue a dual strategy of "FrankenGarnetbalt" (reworked, more stable, still single-tasking but with more Cobalt bits integrated) and their own Plinux solution.

C'mon Chris, you know better than that!

Palm has no reason to own Garnet. Leaving aside the question of why they would even want to get back into the business of writing and maintaining their own OS from the ground up, there is the fact that Garnet's RTOS cooperative multitasking architecture is slowly strangling them. They've publicly stated that they are going to ditch it as soon as Palm OS for Linux is ready and I'm amazed to hear you suggesting they should do anything different at this point.

As for buying "the remnants of Cobalt," that doesn't make any sense either. It seems to me that all the reasons PalmSource had to turn away from Cobalt and put all their energies toward Palm Linux apply just as well to Palm. The only value Cobalt has at this point is that it's a good start on the middleware for a Linux platform. But why would either Access or Palm think it a good idea for there to be two Cobalt-based Linux platforms in the market?

When you look at the outcome of the bidding war you need to remember: Palm could not expect the kind of licensing revenue that a software company like Access could from the Palm OS because prospective licensees would be reluctant to depend on Palm, a competitor, for their OS. We all saw how Motorola bailed from Symbian OS after Nokia bought a controlling interest and Palm knew very well that the same could happen to Palm OS if they reacquired it. This limited what they would be willing to bid.

The main reason Palm wanted to buy PalmSource back wasn't that they needed to own PalmSource's IP or people, it's that they needed to keep competitor Motorola from owning PalmSource's IP and people. As I've said before, the high price that Access paid for PalmSource is very likely a sign that Palm helped Access make the acquisition once the bidding hit the point where it didn't make sense for Palm anymore. In other words, that price reflected not just the value to Access of owning PalmSource--it reflected the value to Palm of Access owing PalmSource. The help probably came in the form of advance license agreements paid in cash conditional on the success of the merger.

Once Palm was assured that PalmSource was safe in the hands of a company they could deal with they had no further reason to want to buy pieces of the company. Believing otherwise is just some kind of wishful thinking--and IMO it's not even something people should wish for.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 9:53:11 AM # Q
I wrote: C'mon Chris

Oops. Sorry about the misspelling, Kris.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
hkklife @ 10/17/2005 10:47:20 AM # Q
But David, haven't they practically been writing & maintaining their own OS for the past ~3 years or so--even since they started hacking away at OS 5? Wouldn't it make sense to try to shore up Garnet somewhat as it's a capable OS for midrange and low-end handhelds. Say what you will but Palm completely OWNS the $200 and below end of the market. And the economies of scale will now finally permit them to play in the <$100 market. All of the reasons not to ignore their basic models.

Also, what do you honestly propose/suggest/predict Palm's new releases throughout 2006 will be running? Or will '06 be just Treo and Mobile Manager releases?

New blood is crucial in this industry, especially with a 2x per year product launch cycle. If the two new units are indeed the final Garnet models to be launched, what will carry Palm through '06? They will soon be in need of a new midrange PDA or two, a new POS Treo would be nice and the LifeDrive CERTAINLY needs some improvements if it's not dropped.

Do you think they can coast through another year on FrankenGarnet 5.4.9?

The matter of what Palm NEEDS to sell NEW product is now a far more pressing concern than the fate of the OS as it is, as you said, in the hands of an "ally". Prior to the acquisition by Access, I figured the deathwatch was on PalmSource. Now Palm is on shaky ground with (confirmed) plans for continued Garnet rehases and a WinMob Treo on a single carrier (for the time being). That won't be enough to get them through '06 intact, will it?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
SeldomVisitor @ 10/17/2005 11:28:38 AM # Q
PALM's RIMM PR-fluff today suggests PALM very much is writing their own software - for ages they've talked about RIMM software in the context of "whenever PalmSource gets it" - today there was no such mention, it was all "PALM/RIMM".
RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 11:37:46 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
But David, haven't they practically been writing & maintaining their own OS for the past ~3 years or so--even since they started hacking away at OS 5? Wouldn't it make sense to try to shore up Garnet somewhat as it's a capable OS for midrange and low-end handhelds.

They've been hacking away at the margins of Garnet, yes, and they will continue to do so for a while--there's no reason to think the Access acquisition will change that any more than the original PalmSource spin-off did. But the kind of problems we've seen with the LifeDrive and the Treo 650 are indicative that this isn't a strategy they want to live with any longer than they absolutely have to. Simply licensing Garnet from Access is, I'm sure, perfectly fine for them in the interim.

Do you think they can coast through another year on FrankenGarnet 5.4.9?

You're the one who is making the argument that Palm wants to keep using Garnet, not me.

I can't say that we've necessarily seen the end of Garnet, but I can say this: we had news that Palm was working on Linux devices well before we got any wind that PalmSource was moving in that direction. That news came from the same source that first stated Palm was working with Windows Mobile last year. Whether Palm is working on their own Linux platform (designed to address concerns and device classes that are different from the ones PalmSource is focused on) or are working side by side with PalmSource on Palm OS for Linux--or both--is hard to say. But judging by the things we've seen and heard since, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see a Linux-based device from Palm very close to the time of the Palm OS for Linux release next year--possibly even before Palm Linux is released.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
sr4 @ 10/17/2005 11:49:42 AM # Q
Isnt the sub-$100 handhelds cellphones these days. In a year's time you will get a Razor free on contract with a higher res colour screen, bluetooth and sleeker look than than the Z22, and more desirable. The race to the bottom will not save Palm.

Surur

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 12:19:59 PM # Q
Isnt the sub-$100 handhelds cellphones these days. In a year's time you will get a Razor free on contract with a higher res colour screen, bluetooth and sleeker look than than the Z22, and more desirable. The race to the bottom will not save Palm.

Not forever, perhaps, but it seems to be a race they're winning for now. The budget PDAs that Palm sells are their highest margin products and they still sell well. I recall reading somewhere that Franklin and Royal (among others) still sell a surprisingly large number of cheap organizers. If the low-end Zires are profitable, why cede that market? Sure, most of those people will eventually move up to a smartphone, but they're more likely to move up to one made by Palm if they're already hooked on Palm OS.

What you're forgetting about RAZR is the lack of a touchscreen. A lot of people who won't enter text or try to navigate menus on a 12-button keypad are more than happy to use a stylus with handwriting recognition and a familiar form-like interface with buttons, checkboxes, combos, etc.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
hkklife @ 10/17/2005 12:49:28 PM # Q
David;

Very valid points. I also read somewhere (was it Jonn Dvorak's colum in PC Mag or on his website?) that there are SCORES of Franklin, Royal, Sharp etc. organizers sold each year, most of them $50 and below. If Palm can somehow get within shouting distance of those and offer a "real" PDA in the process, it'll certainly be good for them. The R&D costs on these bare-bones units are minimal, support issues are negligable (esp. if SD slots and Bluetooth are omitted) and the margins are good.

Sounds like a winning combo to me.

The "sell 'em on a Zire, then sell them a T|E2 and then sell 'em a Treo" strategy seems to be a pretty good one.

But back to my original question:

Palm now has FrankenGarnet & the TX where it should have been a year ago (if not two years ago). Dual wireless, plenty of program memory and pretty stable. Where to go from here?

Do you suggest they keep on using Garnet through '06?
Or do they not release any new models other than WinMob Treos in '06?

That's my question to the PIC members reading this thread---Access has bought PalmSource some time. Now the burden falls onto Palm's shoulders to keep churning out new hardware with no new OS immediately available save WinMob & Garnet. What do YOU (in the plural) think '06 looks like for Palm? Didn't we determine once before that it takes Palm at least 12 months or more for a device to be greenlighted, designed, produced, tested, and shipped to retail?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 1:04:13 PM # Q
What do YOU (in the plural) think '06 looks like for Palm? Didn't we determine once before that it takes Palm at least 12 months or more for a device to be greenlighted, designed, produced, tested, and shipped to retail?

Maybe so. But the anonymous source who first "outed" Palm's WinMob plans stated that Palm had already been testing Linux devices for "for some time" as of a year ago. So we could see the fruits of that work very soon, right?

I think Palm will try to get one more Treo refresh on Garnet, but I expect they'll have a Linux version already well into the pipeline of FCC and vendor testing before the official release of Palm OS for Linux. Because that takes so long it probably won't see the light of day before 2006 is out, but it will in early 2007.

However, I do think we should expect to see handheld products on Linux by the Fall since I think those are being developed concommitantly with Palm OS for Linux. There will also be one last gasp for Garnet on the lower end Palm handhelds at that time. Then, by 2007 I expect Palm to be completely on board with a Palm Linux + WinMob line-up on the phone side and all-Linux on the handheld side. Whatever comes out of Palm's "Third Business" and whenever we start to see it, I expect it to be Linux-based.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 2:54:39 PM # Q
By the way, I was just reminded that during the Analyst Day preso Colligan said Palm still had "some tricks up their sleeve" for 2005. I wouldn't exactly call an umpteenth-generation refresh on the Zire and Tungsten line a "trick" even if they are nice devices, would you? And then we had that Wind River leak about a Linux device from Palm "before Christmas." It was reported (incorrectly, I'm sure now) as being a feature phone, but that doesn't mean there might not be a kernel of truth to it. (pardon the pun)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
hkklife @ 10/17/2005 3:14:51 PM # Q
David;

Sounds as realistic of a roadmap as any I've thought of/seen/heard/read.

I hadn't forgotten Colligan's comment but I had assumed that the world-beating combination of BT & wi-fi in a single "affordble" and (mostly) bug-free device was the "news". Alongside the <$100 color Z22 of course. I doubt today's BB announcement qualifies for a "trick" either.

If anything, there might end up being a VERY mildly refreshed Garnet Treo (BB connect, 64mb RAM) in the works for Sprint and/or Verizon. I personally expect at one more release cycle of Garnet devices-two at most. Either way, it'll be all Linux & WinMob devices in '07, save for whatever carryover legacy low-end Garnet devices are still in the channel.

After reading between the lines on today's announcement it definitely sounds like a new POS Treo is in the works for early '06 (or sooner). If nothing else, announcing the BB solution for the Treo 650 turns the attention back to it and helps clear the retail channels of unsold inventory--a smart move to reinforce support for an EOL product so Palm doesn't "m505" themselves again.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
Admin @ 10/17/2005 3:27:48 PM # Q
D - I was at the Analyst Day... I definitely think Colligan's remarks were alluding to the TX and Z22. I can't remember the exact words, but he said that Palm had some very attractive and affordable models releases in the works.
RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 3:41:16 PM # Q
I definitely think Colligan's remarks were alluding to the TX and Z22.

I know you're probably right--I'm going way out on a limb without much good evidence there. And to give Palm their due, a sub-$300 TX and a sub-$100 Z22 really is a pretty good trick.

It's funny, while I admit to having been annoyed that Palm would build a Windows version of the Treo, the announcement also planted this seed in my head that, hey, these guys really can surprise us sometimes. Ironically, it makes me look forward to the coming year, wondering what the next surprise might be and looking for clues.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
sr4 @ 10/17/2005 3:45:08 PM # Q

I'm being a wet blanket, but can anyone really think of anything revolutionary that would actually fly in the market? Really amazing things usually do poor initially at least (look at the TIVO or Segway), whereas refinements e.g the blackberry, usually are very profitable.

Palm's roadmap will probably be more of the same, but are there really any revolutionary devices that people can even imagine that will be commercially viable?

Surur

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 3:55:12 PM # Q
surer wrote:
can anyone really think of anything revolutionary that would actually fly in the market?

Well, of course you're right. Revolutionary stuff gets picked up only by early adopters at first and has to climb all the way up the bell curve for a few years before getting really big, while evolutionary products can start more or less where their nearest ancestors left off on the curve.

But if you listen to how the Palm guys talk, they don't seem daunted by the prospect of launching another revolution. They've still got a few good years in the PDA market where they're once again gaining market share (albeit of a declining pie)... the Treo is doing great and should be very popular on Windows... they know, I sense, that there isn't going to be a better time to take some chances on something bold.

I'm still thinking about what that bold thing might be but you're right about one thing: anything I come up with seems unlikely to be a success out of the gate.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
hkklife @ 10/17/2005 5:07:40 PM # Q
DVD & direct broadcast satellite (ie DirecTV) took off PRETTY quickly by all accounts. Satellite radio (so far) over the past few years...and definitely MP3 "players" (hardware & software) also got off to a strong start in, what, 1997 or so?

In the handheld market, even the Pilot was a refinement of several previously unsuccessful concepts (GridPad,Newton, Zoomer, Portfolio, Wizard etc etc ad infinitum).

Even a 40gb LifeDrive with an OLED screen, good battery life, and BT/wi-fi/cellular would be (to me at least) the culmination of 10+ years of PDA & cell phone R&D. It'd take something like a multi-gig flash storage drive with voice recognition at al affordable price (even cheaper than what Apple & Samsung are doing) to really be considered revolutionary IMHO.

In my eye, the LifeDrive is nothing more than a PDA being called something else due to Palm's decling marketshare, withering public interest in PDAs and increased competition from smartphones, mini XP machines and portable media players.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
sr4 @ 10/17/2005 5:36:01 PM # Q

I guess I'm asking is, what realistically would be Hawking's revolutionary new line? It needs to be something that will play to Palm's strengths and interests, and would have clear prospects for catching on with the public or business. Maybe a very very slim mini-laptop with 24 hour battery life, 800x600 screen, 20GB HDD and EVDO built-in?

Surur

RE: Wonder why did Palm pass on it?
cervezas @ 10/17/2005 11:11:50 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
what realistically would be Hawking's revolutionary new line?

My best guess is it's a human brain. You put it in your skull and you can carry it with you everywhere you go. If your Treo rings it tells you to pick it up, push a button and hold it to your ear.

Ubiquitous wireless mobile computing. I can't wait!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

It's good news

cervezas @ 9/9/2005 1:49:09 AM # Q
My first reaction is relief. It's much better news that PalmSource is being acquired by another software company than that it get rolled back into Palm.

For Palm OS for Linux to compete with Windows Mobile, Symbian and Blackberry it has to take full advantage of the openness of the platform and make that openness a central part of its business strategy. It's not a huge technical advantage that accounts for Linux growing 4 times faster than WM as a smartphone system. It's the fact that vendors know they are in the driver's seat with Linux under the hood: they can do much of the work of developing a phone without being dependent on the timeline of an OS vendor, for example. Of course the Palm OS framework was still going to be proprietary, but now that PalmSource is clearly out of the woods from being a defacto or actual subsidiary of Palm there is more air in the room for competing vendors to breathe. An acquisition by Palm would have put an end to any future new licensees at precisely the time when the Linux strategy was promising to broaden PalmSource's customer base.

Being acquired by another independent software company salvages the one thing that was good about the split of Palm and PalmSource: the ability of the OS company to form viable relationships with other major device vendors.

Nice to see that there are some other Palm platform optimists out there--optimistic to the tune of $324.3 million in this case!


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's good news
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 4:27:35 AM # Q
The vendors are as in the driver's seat with Linux under the hood as they were without it. Instead of their own RTOS developers or suppliers timeline, they now have to live with the Linux community's timeline, which includes having to deal with suppliers, like PalmSource, as well as doing kernel prep for their own hardware.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: It's good news
AdamaDBrown @ 9/9/2005 4:35:56 AM # Q
I disagree. I'd much rather see PSRC in the hands of Palm, who would have a vested interest in maintaining the platform. Other hardware companies obviously haven't been interested in PalmOS, so I don't see the value in leaving it as part of a seperate company that has no attachment to the platform. Nothing would stop Access from disassembling the company, selling off most of the parts, and turning the OS into a glorified cell phone skin.

As for Linux growing as a smartphone platform, what those numbers don't reflect is that most Linux phones wouldn't really qualify as smartphones under any reasonable definition, they're just phones that have had a Linux kernel stuffed in, like Nokia's "Symbian" camera phones.

RE: It's good news
cervezas @ 9/9/2005 8:13:11 AM # Q
Nice to know you now, Marty!

PenguinPowered wrote:
they now have to live with the Linux community's timeline

Well, everything takes time and time is scarce. But with Linux if someone develops a patch or feature you want you can go out and get it as soon as its done. You don't have to wait for the next major release of Windows Mobile or Symbian for it. Likewise if you are a phone vendor that wants to move a certain Linux technology along faster--say, improve the power management so you can build a smaller, slimmer phone--you are free to put your own developers on that task. Or partner up with another company that is doing that. You don't have to beg Microsoft or Symbian to make that a priority.

Besides, when vendors who are making Linux phones like Motorola and E28 are asked publicly about why they are excited about Linux as a platform they come right out and say it's because Linux puts them in control, not only in better control over the hardware they use, but in better control of product release deadlines. I don't have time right now to hunt down the links, but why second guess them?

Marty, if ACCESS doesn't want access to Palm OS for Linux, what is it that they *do* want access to? I know you're not talking about Cobalt or Garnet (except the extent that either can be leveraged to create Palm OS for Linux). They're not getting access to the Palm brand, because that's already been sold. And if they just wanted a team of developers with platform-building experience to create yet another new phone platform (gulp! please, no!) that premium they paid makes even less sense. That price is not just for a development organization; it's for code that underlies a popular user experience and application stack as well as for the developers who know that code. They have to be buying into Palm OS for Linux.

Now what their concept of Palm OS for Linux is may be somehow different from PalmSource's current vision. But you can't tell me it's not the Palm OS they are after and if it's the Palm OS they're after you can't tell me it's Garnet or even Cobalt that excites them.

Explain yourself, man!


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's good news
cervezas @ 9/9/2005 8:52:56 AM # Q
Nothing would stop Access from disassembling the company, selling off most of the parts, and turning the OS into a glorified cell phone skin.

Nothing except the need to recover the price they are talking about paying. You don't need to spend $300+M if all you want is a glorified cell phone skin.

As for Linux growing as a smartphone platform, what those numbers don't reflect is that most Linux phones wouldn't really qualify as smartphones under any reasonable definition, they're just phones that have had a Linux kernel stuffed in, like Nokia's "Symbian" camera phones.

You're right, but that's a good thing not a bad thing. True, you and I are mostly interested in smartphones, but even though that's the fastest growing segment of the market, it's growing from a very small base compared to the feature phone market (however you want to define that). One way to grow the Palm OS is to do just just what PalmSource has been planning since their CMS acquisition: release a feature phone platform that is data-compatible with Palm OS and shares many aspects of the look and feel so people living in the largest segment of the market (by more than an order of magnitude) have a smooth migration path up to your smarter Palm OS phones.

I don't know if that's still going to be part of the plan any more than the rest of you. But I've thought it made pretty good sense from the first time I heard it.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's good news
cervezas @ 9/9/2005 9:07:33 AM # Q
... and don't forget: all those phone manufacturers that have experience putting together cheap Linux phones can use that Linux background for moving into smartphones and communicators running Palm OS once the Linux version is complete.

I know it seems to run against the grain of recent experience to expect there to be a number of phone vendors interested in becoming licensees of the Palm OS. But for all the reasons I've talked about before (http://www.pikesoft.com/blog/index.php?itemid=5) and also for the reason that a major software company is putting $300M on the table for Palm OS, I am pretty confident that the market is now catching up with the place that Palm thought it was when the split was first engineered.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's good news
sr4 @ 9/9/2005 9:14:22 AM # Q
release a feature phone platform that is data-compatible with Palm OS and shares many aspects of the look and feel so people living in the largest segment of the market (by more than an order of magnitude) have a smooth migration path up to your smarter Palm OS phones.

Is a Ipaq running styletap a POS device? How about a Linux phone running the M68 interpreter? If Access want to penetrate the featurephone market, with their 220x176 screen non-touch screens there is not going to be much left of the character of POS.

PalmSource is dead, and possibly Access was duped into believing they are more viable than they actually are, but this does not bode well for POS devices.

Surur

RE: It's good news
sr4 @ 9/9/2005 9:30:43 AM # Q
I take issue with only one part of your essay, but it changes everything, including the conclusion.

3. They presume that the mobile device market is similar to the PC market where there is a powerful "network effect" from people standardizing around a single familiar operating system. This hasn't turned out to be the case. Instead it appears that the more personal a technology is, the more people want it to be personalized and the less popular a commoditized product is. This means that unlike the PC market there is not going to be a strong consolidation around platforms in the foreseeable future. If anything, platforms are likely to differentiate even more. It also means that the mobile OS companies that do the best will be the ones who give device vendors the greatest opportunity to differentiate and innovate, not the ones whose designs drive mobile devices toward commoditization.

I think network effects are alive and well in the smartphone market. Its still weak, but whenever a company decides to develop for one platform in favour of another, and other users have to move to the same platform to interoperate, the network effect is in action.

E.g. When Skype only develops for windows mobile, and if you want to recieve skype phone calls on the go via VOIP you need to have a WM device, thats a network effect. Or if Adobe only makes a proper PDF reader for WM, and your friend on a WM phone sends you a PDF and to read it you need a WM device, thats a network effect.

Further examples will soon become apparent, e.g multiplayer DirectX games via bluetooth, PlayForSure music subsciptions, X-box Live subscriptions etc.

The beauty of WM phones is that they intergrate into the rest of the Windows experience, and with that massive network effect behind them they just cant lose.

Lastly of course, there is nothing which stops a WM phone from being innovative, such as the http://www.windowsfordevices.com/articles/AT5959950724.html">Neonode N1. However if you are too innovative you actually lose the network effect. You may not think its valuable, but it can be the difference between a small company surviving or failing.

Surur

RE: It's good news
AdamaDBrown @ 9/9/2005 12:57:42 PM # Q
very small base compared to the feature phone market

The "feature phone" market isn't doing so hot either. There was just an article in USA Today talking about how sparkly multipurpose cellphones are falling flat, because the vast majority of people want a phone that they can talk on.

Even if "feature phones" are doing better in Europe and Asia, Europe is owned by Microsoft and Symbian, while Asia prefers open source, free, and nearly free.

Explaining my Linux remarks
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 10:34:42 PM # Q
David,

I obviously can't comment directly on PalmSource's Linux strategy; but I can make a couple of general observations about Linux tradeoffs. (I can't comment on the Access deal, either, but that's because I know nothing about it that's not disclosed in the 8k that was just released, and SOX prohibits employees from speculating on an impending buy-out.)

I'm sure that Moto and others have been saying that Linux gives them more control and that they like that, but control can both be illusory and a two edged sword.

OS development is a funny business. If you do hardware platforms you're never entirely out of it, because you're on your own for drivers for your specific devices. But you get to decide how far into it you are.

With Linux, the more 'control' you have, the farther you've positioned yourself away from taking advantage of the open source community. Take your power management example. I _can_ do my own power management in the Linux kernel. If I do so, I get a lot of control over power management. But, that control comes at a high cost. There are others doing power management. I can ignore them, and take the risk that my solution is not accepted by the community. If that happens, then power management becomes a burden I can never give up. I'll always be on my own to maintain it. Instead of controlling my fate, my fate controls me.

This can have extensive consequences. Power management is pervasive. Every time I want to upgrade my kernel to a new Linux release, I have to move all my code forward. I may decided not to do that, but that's a road with its own control issues, since the longer I stay on one kernel, the farther I fall behind.

Those great patches that I might adopt are to the latest kernel, so now, if I stay behind, and I want a new feature, I've added the cost of backporting that to my kernel. My fate takes more control over me.

In the worst case, and yes, this has happened to hardware providers in the real world, I fall so far behind that I don't have any benefit from the open source community at all. My fate has tricked me into being fully into the operating system business and I have my own creature, that I happen to call "Linux."

On the other hand, I can avoid this trap, by cooperating with the other people doing power management. I can join the right mailing lists, attend the appropiate summits, and so forth. But there goes control in the other direction. I'm back to depending on other people to hit my schedules. Worse, this is Linux. Those other people might not even have schedules of their own to hit. They'll be ready when they're ready. Even more loss of control.

In simple terms, 'control' in embedded Linux land is 8 parts illusion, 1 part cooperating with the inevitable and 1 part cooperating with others.

Usually, the people at large companies who say they like the control Linux gives them aren't the people who have to hit the software deadlines.

On the other hand, it's a full employment opportunity for people like me. ;)

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: It's good news
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 2:49:17 AM # Q
Hmmm. I think we're just talking past each other. By "control" I didn't mean "freedom to go a different way from the OSS community." In fact what I really had in mind was that your developers could become *part* of that community to drive development in an area that's important to you.

Maybe the power management example was bad. What about adding support for a new VOIP protocol? If it's not already supported on a closed-source OS like WM or Symbian all you can do is ask and wait. Meanwhile your device languishes. But with Linux you're free to implement the protocol and it can actually become part of what the open-source community carries forward. If others like the feature you have added and have the incentive to maintain and improve it, you may not have to do much to carry it forward at all.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Can the Open Source Community support POS?
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 5:04:42 AM # Q
David, arnt you confusing OS and apps. If something is fundamental enough to be called the OS its likely to suffer from the same interoperability and compatability issues as the power saving example.

NVFS is a good example of something thats fundamental to the OS, but rather unique to PalmOS, and would therefore only have limited support in the Open Source community, especially if PSRC is not planning to open source the code in the first place.

Surur

RE: It's good news
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 2:10:22 PM # Q
David,

Sorry I wasn't clear. We're not talking past each other, I'm just not making my point very well. Yes, PalmSource developers can become part of the open source community. Actually, the tense there should be "have become". I was contributing to open source projects long before the phrase 'open source' became popular.

At the moment, we are actively participating in, and have contributed to, the Linux kernel, in general, and the TI OMAP support in particular. I am a committer on YAFFS2. We also have several other projects in the works that will contribute to the open source community, and we're participating in many relevant projects, such as power management.

You are right that if there's a vacuum you can fill it and the open source community may accept it. But in practice, the vacuums that are interesting to the community tend to attract multiple attempted solutions. That's when you have to make the go-it-alone versus be-in-the-community decision, and that's where you find control to be illusory.

How we are replacing NVFS *is* a good example of what we're doing. We did a due dilligence investigation of file systems that might be adaptable to the unique properties of flash, especially NAND, hardware. We brought a guy onto staff with a lot of file system experience (that would be me.)

We opted for a solution that involved relying on open source: JFFS2 and YAFFS2. We've engaged the community and are participating in the development of those file systems. We've established sufficient credibility within that community as a result of our contribution that I was given committer status on the YAFFS2 project.

But PDAs have unique requirements that aren't of general interest to the community, so we've also got some ongoing inhouse work that adds facilities above the file system layer. Some of this is specific to supporting PalmOS development, and we don't expect the open source community to be interested in it. Other bits may be of more general interest, and, at an appropriate time, we'll review them and if it seems reasonable, make them available as open source.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Reply to this comment

NetFront OS?

wilco @ 9/9/2005 2:25:44 AM # Q
Since Palm is owned by Palm, Inc. And Access by Microsoft (? - as in MS Access), what will Access Japan name it's OS after the four year period where Palmsource could still use the name....

NetFront OS?

Still, given that Access knows the internals of Palm OS, I hope this will hasten the development of the OS than hinder it...

RE: NetFront OS?
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 2:29:25 AM # Q
Apollo ;)

RE: NetFront OS?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 2:57:11 AM # Q
Since Palm is owned by Palm, Inc. And Access by Microsoft (? - as in MS Access),

Access owned by Microsoft? What is this strange language you speak?


what will Access Japan name it's OS after the four year period where Palmsource could still use the name....

Titanic.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: NetFront OS?
AdamaDBrown @ 9/9/2005 4:15:58 AM # Q
He means that Microsoft Access has a foothold on the name Access in the US, and that Access Inc. might not want to invite a costly trademark war. (Although it did work for Lindows.)

RE: NetFront OS?
Masamune @ 9/9/2005 9:25:15 AM # Q
How about:

Icarus?

Faust?

Vista?

RE: NetFront OS?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 7:58:27 AM # Q
what will Access Japan name it's OS after the four year period where Palmsource could still use the name....

Cobalt Jr.?

Copeland Redeux?

BeOS II?

Wait a minute...that's a trick question! Anyone who has taken Zen of Palm 101 knows that "If an OS falls in a forest, does it need a name?"


You have done well, Grasshopper. I applaud you with the sound of one hand clapping.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

Reply to this comment

Its BAD news

sr4 @ 9/9/2005 2:50:29 AM # Q

This is a really bizarre acquisition. Why would an application provider need to buy an OS, especially when its product is cross platform in any case, and Garnet provides such poor support for its product (lack of multi-tasking and multi-threading)? I know Access paid a huge premium, but they are NOT a natural partner for PalmSource. In a way its like a guppy swallowing a whale, and I do not see any good coming of this for Palm OS. Certainly I do not see Palm remaining committed to Palm OS. I'm sure they knew about this, which is one reason they bought of the Palm name to keep the brand to themselves.

Surur

RE: Its BAD news
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/9/2005 3:02:58 AM # Q
Maybe someone else is behind the merger.
RE: Its BAD news
gfunkmagic @ 9/9/2005 3:15:56 AM # Q
>>>>This is a really bizarre acquisition. Why would an application provider need to buy an OS...

As quoted in the story by Engadget:

"Access is looking for a way to expand the market for its cellphone browser (which is currently used by many of DoCoMo’s FOMA 3G phones), and since both Symbian and Windows Mobile are largely closed off to them they’ve apparently decided that what they need is to have their own operating system. And that’s where PalmSource comes in..."

Furthermore, I imagine Access didn't buy PalmSource for Garnet, but for Palm Linux...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Its BAD news
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 3:23:46 AM # Q
they didn't buy an OS. they bought a company. the question to ask is what that company has that they though worth $300+ million to them.

it'll be fun finding out what that is and whether they were right.

RE: Its BAD news
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 3:26:14 AM # Q
> Furthermore, I imagine Access didn't buy PalmSource for
> Garnet, but for Palm Linux...

Not for access to China?

Web Browser Centric OS?
gfunkmagic @ 9/9/2005 3:26:42 AM # Q
After more thought, if the purpose of the merger is to increase the penetration of Access Netfront browser on mobile devices, then I guess the era of various browser options on PalmOS or whatever it's called is now over...not that it matters though since the various 3rd party browser option have been soo dreadful...

Anyway, it was announced looong ago that Web Browser 3 for Cobalt would be based on Access Netfront technology:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7165

Perhaps, the collaboration in developing the browser is what ultimately led to the acquisition of PalmSource by Access Tech...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Its BAD news
gfunkmagic @ 9/9/2005 3:34:13 AM # Q
>>>>Not for access to China?


That too! ;) For PL, for access to China, for the 200 MobileSoft prgrammers, for the established PalmOS community etc...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Its BAD news
Sam H @ 9/9/2005 3:47:40 AM # Q
Not for access to China?

Here's what access to China is worth:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/07/microsoft_google/

RE: Its BAD news
AdamaDBrown @ 9/9/2005 4:18:59 AM # Q
If they think that "the established PalmOS community" is going to go along with turning the OS into middleware for a marginal web browser, they're about to receive a very rude awakening.

RE: Its BAD news
sr4 @ 9/9/2005 4:47:54 AM # Q
I dont see the sense in buying POS for access to china. An established Linux varient would have been a more sensible buy, especially if the point was middleware, not a platfrom. Also traditionally POS has been especially weak in the Far East, with WM much stronger there (Look at all the WM phones from Korea and Taiwan) while POS has been traditionally very strong in USA.

If Access was doing this to gain access to the American market it would make a whole lot more sense, especially to be the default browser on a very successfull Treo.

Still... bizarre....

Surur

RE: Its BAD news
cervezas @ 9/9/2005 9:17:53 AM # Q
surer wrote:
Why would an application provider need to buy an OS, especially when its product is cross platform in any case, and Garnet provides such poor support for its product (lack of multi-tasking and multi-threading)?

Garnet? Of course they're not interested in Garnet. It's dead RTOS technology going forward. I like hackbod's explanation that ACCESS sees its browser market becoming commoditized and wants to move into a space that is not: phone platforms.

I know Access paid a huge premium, but they are NOT a natural partner for PalmSource. In a way its like a guppy swallowing a whale, and I do not see any good coming of this for Palm OS.

I'd be surprised if Access wasn't at least as big as PalmSource. Anyway, when it comes to acquisitions the relative size of the buyer and target is not as relevant as the financials, current and expected.

Certainly I do not see Palm remaining committed to Palm OS.

Why? What has changed? I'm guessing this will be a much bigger change for Access than it is for PalmSource. And I don't see any impact on Palm at all. Except the hope that the OS company will have better resources and won't have to rely on Palm engineers to do so much.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Its BAD news
sr4 @ 9/9/2005 10:24:54 AM # Q
I know Access paid a huge premium, but they are NOT a natural partner for PalmSource. In a way its like a guppy swallowing a whale, and I do not see any good coming of this for Palm OS.

I'd be surprised if Access wasn't at least as big as PalmSource. Anyway, when it comes to acquisitions the relative size of the buyer and target is not as relevant as the financials, current and expected.

It would have made so much more sense (accept financially) if PalmSource bought Access, to provide the best of class mobile browser to future Palm users.

Surur


RE: Its BAD news
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 10:41:22 AM # Q
Anyone expect that (conceivably) Access may sell off Garnet & whatever exists of Cobalt's IP to Palm?

Wouldn't that be grand? Palm running their own home-brewed version of the OS while the ex-PalmSource staff continue plucking away at PLinux? Don't laugh--that's almost how it was back in the OS 4.x and early OS 5 days---Sony had all of their proprietary APIs while Palm mucked along with their old tech. 320*480 on an NZ90 wasn't anywhere the same as 320*480 on the T3.

RE: Its BAD news
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 2:25:55 PM # Q
It doesn't make sense for Access to sell off Garnet when they can continue to get licensee revenue for it. It also doesn't make sense for Palm to buy Garnet when the license for it for what's left of its life has to be cheaper. (No, I don't know the prices.)

Access is larger (by staff) than PalmSource. PalmSource couldn't buy Access because it didn't have the money.

The American market's not interesting to Asian companies. The Asian market, especially China, is. That's where the growth is and the opportunity to expand.

There aren't any established Linux variants in China. CMS is as close as anyone.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Reply to this comment

So what's the new name? Access OS, Access PalmSource?

gfunkmagic @ 9/9/2005 3:17:33 AM # Q
I wonder what they will call the new company and the new OS? PalmSoure has already sold the "Palm" brand to Palm, so I don't see it being called any variation of "Palm OS" ever again unfortunately. :(

Also I wonder what the new subsidiary will be called? Access Palm? Access PalmSource, Acess PalmSource MobileSoft?

Anyway, this will truely be globally varied company with former components from US, France (PalmSource), China (MobileSoft) and now Japan (Access)...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: So what's the new name? Access OS, Access PalmSource?
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 10:38:58 AM # Q
AccesSource

or

AcceSource

Barring that, something with "Source" and "NetFront" worked in there.

I think the overall lack of wailing and colorful comments on this and other sites speaks volumes for the utter surprise of someone *other* than Palm buying 'em up.

RE: So what's the new name? Access OS, Access PalmSource?
palmato @ 9/9/2005 10:54:12 AM # Q
I wonder whether PalmOne buying back the Palm name is somewhat related to this news.
I mean, any company willing to merge with PalmSource would like to get all of the assets, included the Palm brand.

It's just that Access wasn't really interested in the Palm name? Did PalmOne decide at that time that buying back PS (hence outbidding someone else) was not an option and took the one thing they really cared about?

Maybe the strategic intentions of Access are tied to this point. It's not that they are going to drop PalmOs tomorrow (hopefully), linceses payments from Palm(one) are always welcome. But for new devices, maybe the relationship to the Palm thing will be less close: compatibility might suffer.


--------------------------
Waiting for a TT successor

Reply to this comment

Japan tries to take over the World again!!

batmon @ 9/9/2005 4:33:26 AM # Q
It seems like Japan tries to take over the World again... In this case, mobile/PDA World~

RE: Japan tries to take over the World again!!
batmon @ 9/9/2005 4:36:00 AM # Q
oh... and imagine Japanese cell makers start using AccessOS. Panasonic, Sony, Sharp, etc... That will be cool~

Reply to this comment

Silence at 1src.com

sr4 @ 9/9/2005 5:17:47 AM # Q

The silence is deafening at 1src.com. Do they only do feelgood stories?

Surur

RE: Silence at 1src.com
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 10:35:35 AM # Q
Yes, feelgood stories with the occasional bout of rah-rah cheerleading.

As per their usual editorial policy, Brighthand states that it's a good move for everyone involved. Remember, folks, as long as anything news-making is good news all around, the ad revenue is sure to keep rolling in!

Ryan, maybe a good idea for a PIC exclusive might be a series of short ( one paragraph or less) editorials or snippets of comments from leading industry figures (developers, ex-Palm staffers etc) in the Palm OS world chiming in with their thoughts--good,bad, or otherwise. Any site other than PIC would be too afraid to run such a piece.

RE: Silence at 1src.com
Adrenochrome @ 9/9/2005 10:36:33 AM # Q
I think this is indicative of the difference between 1src users and PIC users.

1src tends to cater to palm users who talk about using their palms. PIC caters more toward people discussing Palm as a business. Not a lot of "Who will buy whom" threads over there. Not a lot of "How do I make my palm connect to Nokia BT headset" over here.

Different audiences with diffent interests.

Ryan: This is a great idea.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 8:26:10 AM # Q
Ryan, maybe a good idea for a PIC exclusive might be a series of short ( one paragraph or less) editorials or snippets of comments from leading industry figures (developers, ex-Palm staffers etc) in the Palm OS world chiming in with their thoughts--good,bad, or otherwise. Any site other than PIC would be too afraid to run such a piece.


Excellent idea, hkklife. The lack of thoughtful discussion about this and other major issues affecting the platform is surprising. It would be nice to see a roundtable discussion about such a major story like the PalmSource buyout with a dozen or so industry pundits.

Only problem is that many people might be reluctant to say what they REALLY feel out of fear of offending someone.

I'd like to hear from: Ryan, CES Dewar, Aaron Ardiri, Kent Pribbernow, Dianne Hackborn, Ed, Gavin Maxwell, George Hoffman, etc.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

You mean like this? (Reposted from slashdot)
Sam H @ 9/10/2005 10:07:26 AM # Q
"Sad end to a Sad story - One developer's view (Score:5, Informative)
by fishdan (569872) * on Friday September 09, @09:20AM (#13518085)
(http://www.sportsdot.org/ | Last Journal: Monday July 25, @03:02PM)

*disclosure -- I was laid off from Palm in 2002*

It's really too bad. Palm was a great company, with the right group of people -- actually alot of disaffected Apple folks, who had left when Jobs was pushed out. Plus the original brain trust of Jeff Hawkins and Donna Dubinsky. Those 2 recognized that Palm could not really be the nimble company they would need to be to survive if they were tied down to 3Com. They asked permission to take the company solo, and were denied by the 3Com brass -- so they started Handspring.

Then (IMHO) really just to spite Jeff and Donna, 3Com did indeed spin off Palm. The problem was with Jeff and Donna gone, leadership was missing. 3Com installed Carl Yankowski, and man who had run giant companies before, but never a nimble tech company. Carl didn't know how to run a company of 500 employees, but he did not how to run a company of 10000, so his goal was to get to 10000 as quickly as possible.

This meant massive hirings and acquisitions. Palm had had a damn fine IPO (Yankowski knew how to do that too) so they had alot of cash on hand. And they started hiring like crazy. And when I say like crazy, I mean they put no thought at all into who got the positions, merely that they filled them. This was 1999/2000 pre-bubble-burst, when anyone with half a brain in silicon valley was already working. As a result, Palm was "forced" to hire people with only a quarter of a brain. Bythat I mean managers who thought they could function as engineers, and people who knew how to play the company game.

Intense corporate infighting began betweeen divisions. When one division looked like it was gaining "power" other divisions would sabotage them. The "managers" that Palm had been able to hire were only interested in making sure that their group looked better than any other group. As a result, incredibly promising ideas, such as 100% VCal/vcard complaince got killed. Palm was going to host a free public database with vcard/vcal entries, so when you updated your info in your palm, it would spread to everyone else when they synced (I know it's *sortof* been done -- but not well by anyone, and certainly the data is not publicly accessible via soap). Palm's internet strategy was completely sabotaged by "executives" who weren't part of the internet group, and really didn't undertand anything about it.

Then the hardware disaster. One of the new Palm's was scheduled for release, and was in the final round of testing. Handspring released their new device and it was Shiny. The Palm marketing team, without really consulting with engineering announced WHILE THE DEVICE WAS STILL IN TESTING that the new Palm would be out next month. Sales of current Palms stopped cold while everyone waited for the new device. And then a showstopping bug was found. The vibrate alarm in the new device was too powerful, and after x number of alarms it shook loose something in y number of devices. So the new device was delayed. And all that time, very few Palms were being sold, because everyone was waiting for the new device. 3 months with no sales is a bad thing.

In a last ditfch effort to calm the infighting, Palm spun off the software division into Palmsource, but it was too little too late. The heart and back of a great little company had been broken.

I'm glad to see Palm still alive, and I'm actually glad to see this sale, I kept my equity this long, at least now I'm forced to get rid of it.

I believe the company has shrunk back down to a small enough size that they've attritioned off the morons acquired at the turn of the century -- unfortunately they lost alot of really good engineering talent too. Palm was more than a hardware company at one point -- now they are just a hardware company. And I don't believe a hardware company can be globally competetive if it's based in the U.S."

Or this? (Also reposted fromslashdot)
Sam H @ 9/10/2005 10:09:41 AM # Q
"Re:Sad end to a Sad story - One developer's view (Score:1, Interesting)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 09, @12:08PM (#13519514)

Posting as an AC because I've already moderated..

I worked at Palm+PalmSource until 2004, and the parent is dead on, with one unfortunate exception:

I believe the company has shrunk back down to a small enough size that they've attritioned off the morons acquired at the turn of the century

Unfortunately, some of the Be, Inc. engineering team are still there. Those folks never had any experience shipping a successful product, and got bogged down building an intellectually interesting product that no one wanted. Their preoccupation with vindicating BeOS's utter failure only served to make it fail yet again (witness the number of retail sales of Palm OS 6 -- zero).

It's a sad story that's repeated often in Silicon Valley: a bunch of really smart people working hard building the wrong things."

Finally, some truth about the Be contribution to PalmSource:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 10:41:30 AM # Q
Unfortunately, some of the Be, Inc. engineering team are still there. Those folks never had any experience shipping a successful product, and got bogged down building an intellectually interesting product that no one wanted. Their preoccupation with vindicating BeOS's utter failure only served to make it fail yet again (witness the number of retail sales of Palm OS 6 -- zero).

Those of us who know what happened when the Be refugees arrived at Palm saw this coming from Day 1. The Be Boppers felt they were "too good for Palm" and that they had a "higher calling" than making a mere PDA OS. They still dreamed of making the perfect Windows/Mac-conquering OS - with code so perfect that all who touched it would be compelled to cast their eyes down and bow down before their Holy Be Greatness. The Be people appeared to be ALL incapable of understanding that the goal was to build a stable OS quickly. Instead, those twits agonized over their dream of making BeOS 6. But BeOS 6/PalmOS 6/Cobalt ended up as dead as EVERYTHING Be has ever touched.

Thanks for nothing, Gassée. Merci bien.

Your Pal,
TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Silence at 1src.com
PenguinPowered @ 9/10/2005 5:27:48 PM # Q
I can't comment on Cobalt. I wasn't at Palmsource at the time.

I will comment on PalmSource now, though. It ain't Be. It does have senior people with long track records of delivering products. It got shaken up in the last round of layoffs.

It's too bad that the FUDers are effective on internet fora, but, where it counts, with investors and customers, the executive team is getting the message out.

Judging from the price Access is offering, I'd say that the message is being well received.

Now it's up to engineering to deliver. I wouldn't use Cobalt as a gauge of whether we will or not. There are different people in charge. There's a different core engineering team. There's a different internal emphasis. There are different relationships with customers.

It comes down to two things:

1) Whether the engineering effort to integrate PalmOS with Linux has been appropriately scoped and staffed.

2) Whether the market will accept the results.

We'll know the answer to one in 15 months. We'll start to see the answer to two six months later.

The doom'n'gloomers can whine all they want between now and then, and, I'm sure they well, but in reality, only time will tell.

One of the things that the doom'n'gloomers don't seem to get is the way the phone market is evolving. It'll be fun to watch how that plays out.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

The NEW PalmSource: We try harder™...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 6:40:15 PM # Q
I can't comment on Cobalt. I wasn't at Palmsource at the time.

You would have fit in perfectly with Gassée's Gang, Mr. Fouts. You have the same (lack of) personality that we see in the typical Be engineer.

I will comment on PalmSource now, though. It ain't Be. It does have senior people with long track records of delivering products. It got shaken up in the last round of layoffs.

"Trust us - we try harder™"

Yes, some of the detritus like the Mace-Man were cleaned out with the recent firings (along with a couple people that were actually good workers), but even more offal still remains at PalmSource. The company needed to clean house two years ago, cannibalize Tapwave + HandEra and outsource a TON of development. The current Hail Mary pass is far too little, far too late.

Sorry Marty, but we heard the same useless SPIN when PalmSource failed to produce Cobalt back in December, 2003. The excuses were beyond pathetic. Only problem is that time has now run out.

It's too bad that the FUDers are effective on internet fora, but, where it counts, with investors and customers, the executive team is getting the message out.

Judging from the price Access is offering, I'd say that the message is being well received.

Unfortunately for PalmSource, it's not FUD if it's true.

I am still absolutely stunned by the Access deal. I wonder if any geisha girls, gallons of sake and hidden cameras were a part of the deal? ;-O

Now it's up to engineering to deliver. I wouldn't use Cobalt as a gauge of whether we will or not. There are different people in charge. There's a different core engineering team. There's a different internal emphasis. There are different relationships with customers.

Uh huh. That was then. This is now. A whole new crew's in da house! Suuuuuuuuuuure, Marty.

It comes down to two things:

1) Whether the engineering effort to integrate PalmOS with Linux has been appropriately scoped and staffed.

2) Whether the market will accept the results.

We'll know the answer to one in 15 months. We'll start to see the answer to two six months later.

The doom'n'gloomers can whine all they want between now and then, and, I'm sure they well, but in reality, only time will tell.

One of the things that the doom'n'gloomers don't seem to get is the way the phone market is evolving. It'll be fun to watch how that plays out.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department


- It's a shame that PalmOS may ultimately die because PalmSource was too cheap/arrogant/stupid to invest adequate resources to develop the OS. Such a waste.

- 2 years is 1 year too many, Mr. Fouts. Why must you learn this the hard way?

It's pathetic to see that a conservative company like Nokia seems to display a sense of urgency that PalmSource lacks.

TVoR

- CLIE collector
- Pundit
- Visionary
- FUD buster
- Power user supreme
- Beta test overlord
- Marty outer


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Silence at 1src.com
PenguinPowered @ 9/10/2005 8:43:27 PM # Q
Poor, confused Skippy. Generating window like a b17 over berlin.

I don't "try harder", skippy. That's for rental car clerks. I also don't ask anyone to "trust me". That's for used car salesmen.

I liked your line about Nokia and "urgency" though. Apparently "urgency" is another one of those words you use differently than anyone else. Nokia came late to the Linux game, Skippy. Even IBM beat them by several years. Nokia's Linux effort has been towards a non-phone, non-pda, device. They _are_ the other Linux player to watch, but I'd hardly call their deliberate, tentative move into the area "urgent".

Given how effectively you've demonstrated your complete lack of understanding of the software development process, I am amused to see you keep making pronouncements on how much resouces it would take to do this or that thing, Skippy.

Throwing 300 engineers at PalmLinux would make it later, Skippy. Read Brooks. He understood this long before there was Unix, let along PalmOS. You seem to be the only person left in the world who doesn't.

The market may decide once PaluxOS is delivered that it isn't interested. All signs point in the opposite direction. Given your track record at predicting things, I take your frequent predictions to the contrary as a good sign.

As I said, it'll be interesting, in a few months, to see how you back pedal on your assertion that a winmob treo will be in consumer's hands when it hasn't arrived on your schedule.

I believe that's the next prediction you've scheduled. It's also the next one you're wrong on.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Silence at 1src.com
svrontis @ 9/10/2005 9:09:21 PM # Q
Quote from The Vat of Refuse:

"- CLIE collector
- Pundit
- Visionary
- FUD buster
- Power user supreme
- Beta test overlord
- Marty outer"

Ed Hansberry's stooge, more likely.

Keep it up grasshopper, you are becoming a parody of yourself.

Spider sense is tingling... PalmOS platform is in danger...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 8:10:48 PM # Q
Poor, confused Skippy. Generating window like a b17 over berlin.

Try to have a little more respect for people that died in the war, Mr. Fouts.

I don't "try harder", skippy. That's for rental car clerks. I also don't ask anyone to "trust me". That's for used car salesmen.

That Avis line is entirely appropriate for The New PalmSource Crew after the recent housecleaning. And your posts here suggest that you're about as trustworthy as a used car salesman, Marty.

I liked your line about Nokia and "urgency" though. Apparently "urgency" is another one of those words you use differently than anyone else. Nokia came late to the Linux game, Skippy. Even IBM beat them by several years. Nokia's Linux effort has been towards a non-phone, non-pda, device. They _are_ the other Linux player to watch, but I'd hardly call their deliberate, tentative move into the area "urgent".

Of all the major cellphone handset manufacturers, Nokia seems most prepared to embrace Linux. While their current experiment is not a traditional cellphone, lessons they learn from it can easily be adapted to other future hardware as needed. For Nokia - a company that has heavily pushed Symbian - to start dabbling in a Linux is a significant event. It would really appear that times they are a-changin'.

You keep bringing up IBM - obviously they are near and dear to your heart, Marty. I wonder why? Unfortunately, I don't believe they are planning to bring out a Linux-based phone any time soon, so try to keep up, would you?

Given how effectively you've demonstrated your complete lack of understanding of the software development process, I am amused to see you keep making pronouncements on how much resouces it would take to do this or that thing, Skippy.

Throwing 300 engineers at PalmLinux would make it later, Skippy. Read Brooks. He understood this long before there was Unix, let along PalmOS. You seem to be the only person left in the world who doesn't.

We will have to agree to disagree on this Marty. I say PalmSource needed to spend $75 million in hiring a LOT more engineers + purchasing/licensing mature applications in order to deliver PalmLinux in 2006. You disagree and also feel PalmSource does not have to deliver PalmLinux in 2006. But this whole debate may now be a moot point: Now that Access has purchased PalmSource - evidently to use the PalmLinux code as a foundation for a NetFront browser UI-based cellphone OS, you may be right about PalmSource no longer having any need to rush delivery of PalmLinux. Access is probably more interested in locking up a chunk of the feature phone market than they are in becoming a supplier of OSes to Treo 600-style high end smartphones. The REAL profits will come from being a player in the low end, so PalmSource's current licensees may end up getting fcuked now that Access is calling the shots with PalmOS development. Palm's failure to purchase PalmSource may have sealed the platform's fate. PalmOS as a PDA OS in 2007 may no longer exist. I seriously wonder whether Access will be willing to support development of both PalmLinux and NetFrontLinux for long... PalmLinux either will get canned or else NetFront will take over from Rome as the new UI. This is not good.

The market may decide once PaluxOS is delivered that it isn't interested. All signs point in the opposite direction. Given your track record at predicting things, I take your frequent predictions to the contrary as a good sign.

As I said, it'll be interesting, in a few months, to see how you back pedal on your assertion that a winmob treo will be in consumer's hands when it hasn't arrived on your schedule.

I believe that's the next prediction you've scheduled. It's also the next one you're wrong on.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard

We shall see. I'm usually right in my predictions, but I'll admit freely that I definitely did not see the Access train coming until I was told about it just prior to the announcement. I still feel Palm made a huge mistake by letting PalmOS get away.


TVoR, Inc.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Silence at 1src.com
PenguinPowered @ 9/11/2005 9:20:04 PM # Q

> You keep bringing up IBM - obviously they are near and dear
> to your heart, Marty. I wonder why? Unfortunately, I don't
> believe they are planning to bring out a Linux-based phone
> any time soon, so try to keep up, would you?

IBM's near and dear to my heart Skippy, because it's the only player in this space that's been around the industry a lot longer than I have. IBM may not be planning a phone, but I'm guessing you've not heard of e-lap.

> The REAL profits will come from being a player in the low
> end, so PalmSource's current licensees may end up getting
> fcuked now that Access is calling the shots with PalmOS
> development.

Why sure, Skippy. We're just going to write off a minimum of $100M in revenue from Palm (you remember Palm, don't you, big customer of Access,) just so we don't have to . . ., er, um, Skippy, just what is it you think we wouldn't do in the low end that we're not already doing in the high end?

> PalmLinux either will get canned or else NetFront will take
> over from Rome as the new UI. This is not good.

Oddly Skippy, the new UIs are the one thing that I can see Access having some input on. They are, after all, in the UI business. But I'd think you'd applaud a company with a successful UI product having input in the design of the UI.

> I'm usually right in my predictions, but I'll admit freely
> that I definitely did not see the Access train coming

You haven't been right in any prediction you've made since I've been here, other than the spelling of my name. That's an unusual definition of "usually" you're using.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Is this the end?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 11:28:26 PM # Q
> The REAL profits will come from being a player in the low
> end, so PalmSource's current licensees may end up getting
> fcuked now that Access is calling the shots with PalmOS
> development.

Why sure, Skippy. We're just going to write off a minimum of $100M in revenue from Palm (you remember Palm, don't you, big customer of Access,) just so we don't have to . . ., er, um, Skippy, just what is it you think we wouldn't do in the low end that we're not already doing in the high end?

Ummm... Marty what $100 million are you taking about? A big chunk of the money Access is guaranteed to receive sounds like it will be paid out even if Access only provides Palm with reheated versions of KludgeOS 5 (Garnet) next year. Access will get the following from Palm:

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050525/psrc8-k.html

"The minimum annual royalty commitments for the contract years ending December 3, 2005 and 2006 remain unchanged from the Prior Agreement at $41.0 million and $42.5 million, respectively. The minimum annual royalty commitments under the extended term of the SARSLA for the contract years ending December 3, 2007, 2008 and 2009 are $35 million, $20 million and $10 million, respectively, subject to the Company meeting certain development milestones."

With PalmSourc being sold, Palm can also exercise its options on PalmOS for $10 million/year for 2010 and 2011.


> PalmLinux either will get canned or else NetFront will take
> over from Rome as the new UI. This is not good.

Oddly Skippy, the new UIs are the one thing that I can see Access having some input on. They are, after all, in the UI business. But I'd think you'd applaud a company with a successful UI product having input in the design of the UI.

So Access is in the UI business? Really? And I thought they were in the business of selling a browser for mobile devices. How silly of me to get confused. And the Garnet/Cobalt UI already works fine, thanks. I suspect Access is planning on pounding a square peg (NetFront) into a round hole (PalmLinux). I hope you'll understand if I hold my applause, Marty.

> I'm usually right in my predictions, but I'll admit freely
> that I definitely did not see the Access train coming

You haven't been right in any prediction you've made since I've been here, other than the spelling of my name. That's an unusual definition of "usually" you're using.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Whatever you say, Marty.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Silence at 1src.com
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 12:03:49 AM # Q
> Ummm... Marty what $100 million are you taking about? A big
> chunk of the money Access is guaranteed to receive sounds
> like it will be paid out even if Access only provides Palm
> with reheated versions of KludgeOS 5 (Garnet) next year.
> Access will get the following from Palm:

Oh, Skippy, please don't try to read contracts, it's not in your skill set. You seem to have missed this clause:

>> subject to the Company meeting certain development
>> milestones.

See that phrase "certain development milestones", Skippy? You really think Palm's forking out a lot of money and the milestones are "warmed over Garnet", Skippy? Or is this just more of your spin^whyperbole.

> So Access is in the UI business? Really? And I thought they
> were in the business of selling a browser for mobile devices.
> How silly of me to get confused. And the Garnet/Cobalt UI
> already works fine, thanks.

Oh, Skippy, not more position reversals? You were whining about the cancellation of new telephony UIs, not the Garnet/Cobalt UI. And elsewhere, you lauded Surur for digging up a position paper that described Access as being in the UI business. Skippy, you've really got to stop trying to take all positions.

> I suspect Access is planning on pounding a square peg
> (NetFront) into a round hole (PalmLinux).

Well, you suspected that I had a financial interest in Palm, and that they were going to buy PalmSource next year, so I hope you don't mind if I suspect your suspicions.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Go Marty! Go Marty! Go Marty!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 12:46:46 AM # Q
> Ummm... Marty what $100 million are you taking about? A big
> chunk of the money Access is guaranteed to receive sounds
> like it will be paid out even if Access only provides Palm
> with reheated versions of KludgeOS 5 (Garnet) next year.
> Access will get the following from Palm:

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050525/psrc8-k.html

"The minimum annual royalty commitments for the contract years ending December 3, 2005 and 2006 remain unchanged from the Prior Agreement at $41.0 million and $42.5 million, respectively. The minimum annual royalty commitments under the extended term of the SARSLA for the contract years ending December 3, 2007, 2008 and 2009 are $35 million, $20 million and $10 million, respectively, subject to the Company meeting certain development milestones."

With PalmSourc being sold, Palm can also exercise its options on PalmOS for $10 million/year for 2010 and 2011.

Oh, Skippy, please don't try to read contracts, it's not in your skill set. You seem to have missed this clause:

>> subject to the Company meeting certain development
>> milestones.

See that phrase "certain development milestones", Skippy? You really think Palm's forking out a lot of money and the milestones are "warmed over Garnet", Skippy? Or is this just more of your spin^whyperbole.

Actually, no - I didn't miss the clause. In fact, I quoted it and even linked to the actual document, Marty.

1) I interpret that as saying the $42.5 million in 2006 is guaranteed no matter what Access does/fails to do. The ever-decreasing minimums of $35/20/10 million for 2007/8/9 appear to be the ones governed by that clause, Marty. Then again, reading contracts is "not in [my] skill set".

2) 2007/8/9 would only bring Access in a guaranteed $65 million from Palm. Sounds like pocket change for a company that was willing to drop over $300 million on a floundering OS company.

3) It's conceivable that Palm will be content to milk PalmOS 5 indefinitely as they also start feeding from the Windows Mobile trough with the upcoming WinMob Treos. Let's see now:
Palm OS 5.2.8 - palmOne Zire 31, Zire 72 and Zire 72s.
Palm OS 5.4.5 - palmOne Tungsten T5 and Trço 650.
Palm OS 5.4.7 - palmOne Tungsten E2.
Palm OS 5.4.8 - palmOne LifeDrive.
At this rate we could easily see a PalmOS 5.9.9 Zire/Tungsten/Treo lineup 10 years from now! Presumably Palm would have to be paying Access for the privelege of using PalmOS 5.9.9 in 2015... God bless Garnet!

But you didn't answer the simple question, Marty. You always seemed to have a keen interest in math and how figures add up. Can you please tell the court where you came up with your claimed "minimum of $100M in revenue from Palm"? What's that? can't hear you, Marty...

> So Access is in the UI business? Really? And I thought they
> were in the business of selling a browser for mobile devices.
> How silly of me to get confused. And the Garnet/Cobalt UI
> already works fine, thanks.

Oh, Skippy, not more position reversals? You were whining about the cancellation of new telephony UIs, not the Garnet/Cobalt UI. And elsewhere, you lauded Surur for digging up a position paper that described Access as being in the UI business. Skippy, you've really got to stop trying to take all positions.

Reversals? Only in your "special" world, Marty. I was assuming that the PalmLinux UI would look similar to the PalmLinux (PalmOS 7) demo, which looked similar to Cobalt (PalmOS 6), which looked similar to Garnet (PalmOS 5), which looked similar to PalmOS 4, which looked similar to PalmOS 3, which looked similar to PalmOS 2, which looked similar to PalmOS 1, which - after 10 years - I am used to and happen to like. What WAS I thinking? My bad (as you say).

Surur was clever enough to find a manifesto from Access which seems to expose EXACTLY what their plans will be for PalmLinux and why they thought a floundering company like PalmSource was worth over $300 MILLION. He deserves to be applauded as being the person who revealed what Access will likely do with the PalmSource programmers and IP. Do you think Surur made a valid contribution to this discussion, Marty? I certainly do.

> I suspect Access is planning on pounding a square peg
> (NetFront) into a round hole (PalmLinux).

Well, you suspected that I had a financial interest in Palm, and that they were going to buy PalmSource next year, so I hope you don't mind if I suspect your suspicions.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Enough with the lies already. Marty, I said you are a PalmSource EMPLOYEE. Period (Go back to the original post where I outed you if you need to refresh your memory.) Yes I also said I was confident that Palm was going to buy PalmSource, because it is obvious to those of us who follow the platform that Palm would not survive unless they regained OWNERSHIP of PalmOS. I assume Palm's leaders are intelligent enough to recognize this fact as well. For them to allow another company to swipe PalmSource right under their noses is truly shocking to me. Forgive me for believing that Palm was run by competent executives.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Silence at 1src.com
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 2:15:21 AM # Q
> "The minimum annual royalty commitments for the contract
> years ending December 3, 2005 and 2006 remain unchanged from > the Prior Agreement at $41.0 million and $42.5 million,
> respectively. The minimum annual royalty commitments under
> the extended term of the SARSLA for the contract years ending
> December 3, 2007, 2008 and 2009 are $35 million, $20 million
> and $10 million, respectively, subject to the Company meeting
> certain development milestones."

> Actually, no - I didn't miss the clause. In fact, I quoted it
> and even linked to the actual document, Marty.

Ah, Skippy. You pasted it. You then wrote something that indicated that you'd ignored it. My guess is that you didn't understand it.

> 1) I interpret that as saying the $42.5 million in 2006 is
> guaranteed no matter what Access does/fails to do. The ever-
> decreasing minimums of $35/20/10 million for 2007/8/9 appear
> to be the ones governed by that clause, Marty. Then again,
> reading contracts is "not in [my] skill set".

If that's your reading, you definitely don't know how to read contracts.

> But you didn't answer the simple question, Marty. You always
> seemed to have a keen interest in math and how figures add
> up. Can you please tell the court where you came up with your
> claimed "minimum of $100M in revenue from Palm"?

Jeez Skippy. The numbers are right up there in the document you quoted. If PalmSource performs, there's 42M + 35M + 20M + 10M in minimums. You can add, can't you Skippy, er, no, of course not. 42+35=77. 77+20=97. 97+10=107. I truncated Skippy. Hope you don't mind the missing 7M in my math.

> Surur was clever enough to find a manifesto from Access which
> seems to expose EXACTLY what their plans will be for
> PalmLinux

It's not a manifesto, Skippy, it's an article in LinuxWorld. And it was written over a year ago. Plus, it doesn't say anything "EXACTLY", it just makes some fairly general statements.

> and why they thought a floundering company like PalmSource
> was worth over $300 MILLION. He deserves to be applauded as
> being the person who revealed what Access will likely do with
> the PalmSource programmers and IP. Do you think Surur made a
> valid contribution to this discussion, Marty? I certainly do.

I think he found an interesting piece of year old writing for a trade magazine. It doesn't tell me anything about what Access will do in the considerably different circumstances they find them in as PalmSource owners, than when they wrote the article.

> Enough with the lies already. Marty, I said you are a
> PalmSource EMPLOYEE. Period (Go back to the original post
> where I outed you if you need to refresh your memory.)

Um, no, Skippy, you didn't. You had me down as a Palm employee at one point, and as having financial interest in Palm at another. You also guessed contractor at a third point. It is, as you say, all there. Which is why your denying it is so amusing.

> is obvious to those of us who follow the platform that Palm
> would not survive unless they regained OWNERSHIP of PalmOS.

The funny thing here, Skippy, is that you're the only one who says or seems to believe that. Something's obvious here, but not what you're claiming.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Silence at 1src.com
Sam H @ 9/12/2005 7:51:51 AM # Q
I'm guessing you've not heard of e-lap.

Whatever happened to that, anyway?

RE: Silence at kirvin,com
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2006 3:46:29 PM # Q
Now it's up to engineering to deliver. I wouldn't use Cobalt as a gauge of whether we will or not. There are different people in charge. There's a different core engineering team. There's a different internal emphasis. There are different relationships with customers.

It comes down to two things:

1) Whether the engineering effort to integrate PalmOS with Linux has been appropriately scoped and staffed.

2) Whether the market will accept the results.

Now that you're a disgraced FORMER PalmSource employee I assume you now realize that

1) the engineering effort to integrate PalmOS with Linux has NOT been appropriately scoped and staffed.

and

2) the market will NOT accept the results if PalmLinux does not arrive on time in 2006.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

All voice and no clue
cervezas @ 1/14/2006 7:05:25 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Now that you're a disgraced FORMER PalmSource employee I assume you now realize that

1) the engineering effort to integrate PalmOS with Linux has NOT been appropriately scoped and staffed.

You really don't have the foggiest idea what's going on, do you, TVoR? Not that I'm all that surprised, mind you.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Silence at 1src.com
PenguinPowered @ 1/14/2006 7:14:25 PM # Q
It strikes me that Skippy is really not much more than an attention seeking 'bot. Ever notice how it always degenerates into name calling when it runs out of arguments, or that it will generate several posts in response to something if you haven't responded to it quickly enough to satisfy its desire for attention?


May You Live in Interesting Times

Martygotchi (will work for food)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2006 9:36:27 PM # Q
It strikes me that Skippy is really not much more than an attention seeking 'bot. Ever notice how it always degenerates into name calling when it runs out of arguments, or that it will generate several posts in response to something if you haven't responded to it quickly enough to satisfy its desire for attention?

Wrong answer, Marty.

TVoR: "Jump!"

Marty Fouts: "How high?"

Correct answer, Marty.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Silence at 1src.com
cervezas @ 1/15/2006 11:32:53 AM # Q
Marty, as a relative newcomer here you are enjoying the fleeting entertainment value of something the rest of us have experienced so often in the past: the amusement of making TVoR pitch his embarrassingly large fits with only the twitch of a keyboard finger or two. Now that you've had your fun, the polite thing to do would be to let the little man wriggle under his own meager powers. If not out of mercy to him, then out of mercy to the rest of us.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

So is this bad?

Frenchie @ 9/9/2005 11:50:32 AM # Q
Excuse my youthful ignorance, but what are the + and - of this acquirement?

It seems to be good, but then again our loved platform is owned by someone other then themselves. Any extra thoughts would be appreciated.

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p

RE: So is this bad?
sr4 @ 9/9/2005 12:37:41 PM # Q

Positives:

1) PalmSource is recapitalized.
2) When Access bought them they had a plan for them, so they should be more focused.
3) Access has contacts and contracts with many companies in the Far East, so they should be able to get them to take a risk on a model or two which they may not have with an American company.

I'll leave the negatives to some-one else.

Surur


RE: So is this bad?
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 12:45:40 PM # Q
The recapitalization/cash infusion is the MAIN benefit for PalmSource. Everything else is secondary, at least from a short-term perspective.

RE: So is this bad?
AdamaDBrown @ 9/9/2005 2:00:29 PM # Q
The negatives would be that:

1. PalmSource may no longer be committed to delivering anything at all for traditional handhelds and smartphones.

2. Having PalmSource focused on mobile phone OSes may drive remaining PalmOS licensees away.

Hopefully this isn't the case, but those are the possibilities.

RE: So is this bad?
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 2:04:54 PM # Q
gah. i've got agree with surur and hhklife. Is that a sign of the end times?

The short term negative is whatever FUD this brings, as buy outs inevitably entail confusion.

Long term +/- are too early to tell.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: So is this bad?
hkklife @ 9/9/2005 2:48:09 PM # Q
Marty;

It sure feels like the end times right about now! Do you recall an editorial written by Ed @ Brighthand back in May or so? It spoke of Palm([One] at the time) needing to maintain focus amidst the name change and rebranding efforts. If you look at it, there have been endless factors over the past few years distracting the Palm companies. First you had the m500 announcement/shipping delay and the arrival of the iPaqs (the first serious challengers to Palm's dominance). Then you had the rough transition to OS5 in '02. Then the Handspring acquisition and the PalmOne/PalmSource spin-off. Add to that the Cobalt fiasco, PalmOne's quality control woes, Nagel, the "Palm" $30 Mil acquisition, China Mobilesoft & Access dealings etc etc. What a bunch of headaches!

The Palm companies really haven't had a stable year to devote purely to R&D and selling their wares since 2000 or so.

Right now the best case scenario to minimize confusion would be a WELL-plotted series of press announcements & media coverage. Seeing a few roadmaps wouldn't hurt as well.

I'm especially curious to see LG's reaction to all of this as well.

Reply to this comment

Consumer perspective.

VampireLestat @ 9/9/2005 11:46:04 AM # Q
From what I am reading, these are the impressions I am left with:

1- Cobalt is slow.
2- Palm lost control of the OS.
3- Palm owns Palm brand, but not the OS. Makes no sense.
4- Access plans to abandon Palm OS PDA version and focus solely on watered down versions for phones.
5- Developers are done with Palm and will massively migrate to WM.
6- PoL, as per a PSource engineer: "More difficult for us...". Bad.
7- Confusion regarding what is best; 1 company for both OS+hardware or no. They don't know what they are doing.
8- Palm will now go with WM and will phase out Palm OS if WM is a success; which it will be because the developers will be gone.
9- PoL is years away and WM 5 will eat away at Palm OS in the meantime.

As a consumer, I don't see any point in continuing to buy Palm OS devices. There is no major improvements to the OS pending, and in fact all I see is confusion, delays and a very uncertain PoL OS that appears will be optimized for phones and will essentially leave PDA owners on the side of the road. As a consumer, I now feel safer with my data on a PPC and my investment and time under a Microsoft product. I at least know where MS is going and I see progress in their OS for products that I buy, handhelds.

It is all about confidence.



RE: Consumer perspective.
Gekko @ 9/9/2005 12:35:58 PM # Q

"The T5 is the world's greatest handheld."



RE: Consumer perspective.
Konstantin @ 9/9/2005 1:53:14 PM # Q
Gottal love those categoric statements overflown with wisdom. They are soo... hmmmm... n00bish.
"As a consumer, I don't see any point in continuing to buy Palm OS devices."
Could I suggest NintendoDS + NintenDogS Chiuahua edition?


RE: Consumer perspective.
twizza @ 9/9/2005 1:57:20 PM # Q
VL;
I agree. It doesnt look good for PDAs as a whole or for consumers. Unless Access has some uber-programmers and developers who were/are willing to kick things up a few notches, the PDA as we know it is basically dead, and tabletPC-like PDAs running WM/Vista-lite are here to rule...err stay.

CAnt even say that I am happy about it either. I hope my PalmOS devices can last until something 'as good if not better' comes. But I, consumer, have absoutley no confidence in the PalmOS.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

Reply to this comment

"AssOS"

Gekko @ 9/9/2005 12:34:48 PM # Q

Lookout MSFT!!!


Reply to this comment

Just My Gut

sford @ 9/9/2005 1:12:47 PM # Q
I can't put my finger on it, and I just don't care enough to do a lot of research about it, but I do not have a good feeling about this as a long-time fan of the OS itself.

I suspect this acquisition is going to end the evolution of the OS for the PDA. My gut says the Palm "OS" is about to head in a very different, non-PDA-centric direction, and I don't think I'm going to like it. (Note: I'm not a big cell phone person; basically have it from when my wife was pregnant, and now usually forget we even have one, lol. :)

StyleTap (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7794) is starting to look just a wee bit more intriguing.

____________________________________
Pilot Pro -> III -> IIIe -> Nino (yeah...oops!) -> IIIc -> VIIx -> m505 -> NR70V -> NZ90 -> NX60 -> T3 -> Zire 72s

www.PalmKB.com

RE: Just My Gut
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 1:53:37 PM # Q
PalmOS was already headed in a non-PDA centric direction.

The evolution of the OS seems to have ended in the late 1980s. All that's happening in PDA/phone land is that the hardware is getting cheap enough to run multithreaded networked operating systems.

I, for one, have no idea what Access wants PalmSource for, but if they wanted PalmLinux, the license is cheap compared to buying the company, I would think.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Just My Gut
cervezas @ 9/9/2005 3:49:14 PM # Q
I, for one, have no idea what Access wants PalmSource for, but if they wanted PalmLinux, the license is cheap compared to buying the company, I would think.

C'mon Marty, don't be dense. You can't tell the difference between Access paying royalties and Access becoming the recipient of them??


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

Good thinng could happen

Tuckermaclain @ 9/9/2005 1:32:33 PM # Q
Nobody wanted Chrysler stock at the time of the Federal bailout, but if you had it you'd be a millionaire now. All the pundits said it was just a matter of time before the company died.

Maybe with new players and a potentially huge Chinese market that gives Bill Gate's fits we'll get some really awesome PDA phones soon. In the past companies other than Palm gave us tremendous improvements. TRG's CF card in the old days. HandSpring gave us the great colors, and Sony made the whole VFS thing a reality. The rate of improvement was always better with competition. I'm thinking that other Japanese/Korean companies will jump on board and give us some really phenomenal phones soon. Please give me a clamshell with a good (color, 3x3", at least 320x320)screen and grafitti 1 instead of buttons. I had a beautiful DoCoMo phone when I lived in Tokyo--they could make a Palm to die for. If it all goes to pot, Palm's next lame cellphone will have to do.

Reply to this comment

WTF! What is Palm to do?

legodude522 @ 9/9/2005 2:54:17 PM # Q
WTF!!!!!!!!
I'm really sad. I am. What is Palm to do now? Make Linux themselves? I think they will go to Windows Mobile. Chinamobilsoft was supposed to be going up, the company that PalmSource owns.

My loyaly will be tested. I was gonna go for an LD but a dead OS?
WTF

Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present.

RE: WTF! What is Palm to do?
twizza @ 9/9/2005 2:59:04 PM # Q
The OS isnt dead just yet friend. I would also hold off on the LD until version 1 of a patch is released. I know you miss that Z and fnuctionality, but you can wait if it means a touch more stability.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com
Reply to this comment

Word from Palm

MarcosV @ 9/9/2005 3:26:12 PM # Q

Below is the text from an email Palm just sent out to their developers..

-----------------------------------------------

Dear Developer,

Some of you may have seen the press release (see below) that was issued by ACCESS Co., Ltd., announcing the acquisition of PalmSource. This is good news for Palm and the Palm Economy. Palm is fully supportive of the acquisition and we look forward to continuing to work with ACCESS to advance the Palm OS platform.

ACCESS is the software technology partner for the Blazer Web Browser, which has been an important contributor in the success of Handspring and Palm. Having PalmSource supported by a strong financial base will help ensure the Palm OS platform moves forward to the benefit of the entire Palm Economy. In May, Palm extended its strategic license agreement, permitting Palm to continue making and marketing products based on Palm OS until the year 2010. Palm's exceptional software team and our cadre of developers have consistently delivered differentiated products by adding value on top of the OS.

We look forward to continuing our strong working relationship to advance the Palm OS platform. If you have questions, don't hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely,

Paul D. Leeper
Director, Developer Relations

------------------------------------------------

Jim


Reply to this comment

Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious

Dr Opinion @ 9/9/2005 6:59:28 PM # Q
Perhaps I'm insulting some folks' intelligence here, but it's perfectly obvious that this is *fantastic* news for the palm OS.

ACCESS *obviously* didn't buy PalmSource to kill it: PalmSource can *only* be worth the huge *premium* that ACCESS paid if the PalmOS and Palm Economy continue to provide plenty of revenue to ACCESS.

The huge premium can only be justified if the massive palm developer community is *leveraged*, and that means plenty of support and reassurance for Palm developers.

It is highly unlikely that ACCESS paid out this amount of money expecting PalmLinux to ship late... and you can guarantee that PalmSource had to "open the kimono" for a deal like this and show precisely what they were developing and what milestones remained.

ACCESS knows *precisely* what they acquired, and what it is worth in the marketplace.

In fact, given that an acquirer likes to show a return on an asset as soon as possible, this acquisition most likely means an accelerated development path for PalmLinux.

"Purchased at a premium" means that the acquired asset was worth *more* than what the market estimated. ACCESSS figures that PalmLinux is worth essentially double what the market was estimating: this can only be a good thing.

It's always nice when Voice of Dumbness is wrong! :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
sr4 @ 9/9/2005 7:37:29 PM # Q
Its amazing how quickly Palm got ROI from the Be acquisition, isn't it! The shipped that new OS in less than 3 years!! I'm sure Access's acquisition will work out JUST AS WELL!!

Surur

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/9/2005 10:21:04 PM # Q
I would not put too much emphasis on 'quick return on investement.' That's a US centric viewpoint, it is not, typically, how the Japanese operate.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department
RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/9/2005 11:55:38 PM # Q
Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious

This from a guy who a couple of days ago was insisting that Palm "dominates" the market with their 35% marketshare, and that PalmLinux was poised to turn Windows' 65% share into a "niche," presumably after PalmLinux actually gets released in 18-24 months. You would be taken a lot more seriously if you weren't acting so painfully fanboyish.

Perhaps I'm insulting some folks' intelligence here, but it's perfectly obvious that this is *fantastic* news for the palm OS.

It isn't "fantastic news" until there's reason to believe it's fantastic news. PalmSource is being bought out and recapitalized. Sometimes that turns out well, sometimes it turns out badly. I can't count the number of stories I know about one company buying another and it turning into a disaster, particularly with overseas buyers. "Dilbert" didn't spring from whole cloth.

ACCESS *obviously* didn't buy PalmSource to kill it: PalmSource can *only* be worth the huge *premium* that ACCESS paid if the PalmOS and Palm Economy continue to provide plenty of revenue to ACCESS.

Our idea of "killing" PalmSource may not match up with Access'. For instance, converting the company to make mobile phone OSes would effectively kill the platform, but Access might see it as a reasonable way to grow their market.

The huge premium can only be justified if the massive palm developer community is *leveraged*, and that means plenty of support and reassurance for Palm developers.

For those that are left, maybe. But if Access did want to turn PalmOS into mobile phone software, they really wouldn't be interested in keeping independant developers. Carriers would be their customers, and carriers don't want people developing software they don't control.

It is highly unlikely that ACCESS paid out this amount of money expecting PalmLinux to ship late... and you can guarantee that PalmSource had to "open the kimono" for a deal like this and show precisely what they were developing and what milestones remained.

Assuming that they have any interest in PalmLinux, as opposed to CMS, Garnet, or even just PalmSource's coders. You're assuming facts not in evidence, to wit, that Access wants to keep running PalmSource exactly the way it is.

In fact, given that an acquirer likes to show a return on an asset as soon as possible, this acquisition most likely means an accelerated development path for PalmLinux.

As Marty said, that's not always the way it works. (Though I must say, thank god for the Japanese and their casual relationship with ROI. If US companies were less obsessed with getting their money back in 6 months, we'd have nationwide WiFi and colonies on Mars by now.)

"Purchased at a premium" means that the acquired asset was worth *more* than what the market estimated. ACCESSS figures that PalmLinux is worth essentially double what the market was estimating: this can only be a good thing.

Again, you're making the assumption that all the people involved are infallible, and that everything will go perfectly. I can't count the number of stories I know about companies paying out vast sums of money to buy other companies for far more than real value. Often, companies in a weak position will make themselves appear more valuable than they really are in order to try and get bought out. You really need to read Scott Adams.

RE: PalmSource Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 12:09:56 AM # Q
I would not put too much emphasis on 'quick return on investement.' That's a US centric viewpoint, it is not, typically, how the Japanese operate.

Sure. In Japan no one care about things like profitability. It's all about "people helping people".


Kumbayah... Marty's cryin, my Lord, Kumbayah...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/10/2005 12:20:31 AM # Q
Sure. In Japan no one care about things like profitability. It's all about "people helping people".

Profitability is great, but in this case he's right that the Japanese take a longer-term view of things. It's not all about getting your money back in 6 months or the project's canceled, the way many US companies operate.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/10/2005 1:51:09 AM # Q
>> I would not put too much emphasis on 'quick return on
>> investement.' That's a US centric viewpoint, it is not,
>> typically, how the Japanese operate.

> Sure. In Japan no one care about things like profitability.
> It's all about "people helping people".

Ah, Skippy's confused again. Four word phrases like "quick return on investment" too long for you Skippy?

Of course, given your demonstrated lack of understanding of the software development process, it's not much of a surprise that you don't understand the differences between the US and Japanese business models.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: PalmSource Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/10/2005 6:56:29 AM # Q
>>>Sure. In Japan no one care about things like profitability. It's all about "people helping people".

Profitability is great, but in this case he's right that the Japanese take a longer-term view of things. It's not all about getting your money back in 6 months or the project's canceled, the way many US companies operate.

Actually, I was joking, Adam. I am fully aware of the traditional Japanese corporate culture (which is beginning to gravitate towards the American "Instant Gratification" school of thought, by the way).



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
Dr Opinion @ 9/10/2005 9:14:13 AM # Q
> "...Our idea of "killing" PalmSource may not match up with Access'. For instance, converting the company to make mobile phone OSes would effectively kill the platform, but Access might see it as a reasonable way to grow their market..."

Not at that sort of premium.

In the fantasy world of the m$ shill, PalmSource was an asset with no value, and as such might have been bought up at a massive *discount* by a recycler hoping to extract some value from the aluminum trays in the cafeteria.

In real life the management and directors of PalmSource drove a hard bargain on price: they know the value of their assets, their development pipeline, and the incredible palm economy -- a far more vibrant, entreprenurial, and creative community than m$ has. This is easy to demonstrate: if m$ wince was truely secure in it's future, the monopolist wouldn't need to pay shills to troll palm forums!

Apparently ACCESS also see the *same* value in the PalmSource asset, since they agreed on this incredible *premium*.

The world of M&A can be complex at times, and it's easy to see how the m$ shills might try to confuse palm developers with FUD when this type of activity happens... of course, that's the job of a shill, they get paid for writing this rubbish, and we really can't blame them for trying to put bread on the table.

Their "predictions" and "analyses" are, of course, nothing more than garbage. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/10/2005 11:12:13 AM # Q
TVoR said:
Actually, I was joking, Adam.

Ah. Sorry, then.

Japanese corporate culture (which is beginning to gravitate towards the American "Instant Gratification" school of thought, by the way).

Eew.

Dr Opinion said:

Not at that sort of premium.

Again, you're assuming things. What the price says is that Access thinks they're getting something good. Nothing about that says that they're looking at the classic PalmOS.

In the fantasy world of the m$ shill, PalmSource was an asset with no value, and as such might have been bought up at a massive *discount* by a recycler hoping to extract some value from the aluminum trays in the cafeteria.

In the real world, things don't work that way. For a company to be valued less than the total of its cash on hand plus hard assets would be... well, highly improbable. The fact that PalmSource was in a terrible market position couldn't drive the price much below that threshold anyway.

In real life the management and directors of PalmSource drove a hard bargain on price: they know the value of their assets, their development pipeline, and the incredible palm economy -- a far more vibrant, entreprenurial, and creative community than m$ has.

The "Palm economy" isn't worth what you seem to think it is. The developer and buyer base has been shrinking right along with the marketshare, in no small part due to the fact that the platform has fallen behind its competitors, and most of the really innovative new software toys are happening elsewhere.

This is easy to demonstrate: if m$ wince was truely secure in it's future, the monopolist wouldn't need to pay shills to troll palm forums!

Which they don't. Paranoia leads you to believe that anything negative about Palm/PalmSource must be the work of evil, evil Microsoft, since everyone knows Windows is satan and Palm is infallible.

Apparently ACCESS also see the *same* value in the PalmSource asset, since they agreed on this incredible *premium*.

Facts not in evidence. Obviously Access sees value in PSRC, but you assume that they see the existing OS as the value because that's what you want them to see. Some of us, who aren't automatically biased, would like a clear-cut answer from them as to what the future of the Palm platform is.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/10/2005 5:44:10 PM # Q
The future of the platform is PalmLinux, with Netfront fully integrated. At least that's the message I took from the press releases.

Don't expect any more information from either company until after the stockholder vote and the SEC does its thing, though. US Securities laws are now pretty strict on what people can say between and announcement and the completion of a deal.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
Dr Opinion @ 9/10/2005 7:54:13 PM # Q
> "...The developer and buyer base has been shrinking right along with the marketshare..."

Classic shill FUD. Thanks. :)

The PDA market has grown since the days when palm was the only show in town, yet the Palm OS maintains the largest installed base and developer community by multiples. m$ can only wish.

Despite the huge lead the Palm OS continues to innovate, to take the battle to the next platforms: smartphones and media players.

Considering the amount of cash m$ has sunk, it is pathetic that the wince platform continually trails behind in terms of innovation, constantly copying Palm. Yes, there are wince devices with higher res screens, but that's hardly what the unbiased would call "innovation". I'm looking forward to a day when m$ "invents" PDAs with non-volatile memory, smartphones with keyboards, and devices with hard drives built in. Wow. Just imagine.

> "in no small part due to the fact that the platform has fallen behind its competitors, and most of the really innovative new software toys are happening elsewhere"

Yeah, just look at the amazing developer buzz around Symbian. Cool.

But really, how long do you think wince developers are going to stick around once they realize that m$ will not need two tablet PC O/Ss moving forwards? Obviously wince is doomed: its developer base is tiny compared to either palm, linux, or that of the PC: m$ must be planning to eliminate it. Current PDAs are almost powerful enough to run PC-style operating systems like linux or XP for tablet PCs right now. I'd give wince a year at most.

And judging from the way m$ has treated the wince development community historically, anyone committed to the platform when it is dropped will be left whistling in the wind. :)


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/10/2005 11:46:17 PM # Q
Some of us, who aren't automatically biased, would like a clear-cut answer from them as to what the future of the Palm platform is.

Gee, and here I thought we'd been stating pretty clearly what the future of the Palm [OS] platform is for the better part of a year now. I was certainly clear about it in my presentation at the Developer Conference back in May.

The future is "Palm OS for Linux"; (the majority of) "Protein"—i.e. Cobalt—developer APIs will be supported, (the majority of) Linux APIs will be exposed, 68K compatibility will be delivered via PACE, as on Garnet.

We worked (modulo a break for a comm meeting and some cake) as diligently yesterday, post announcement, as we did the day before, pre-announcement; we're ****ing off now 'cause it's the weekend, but we'll all be back at work Monday morning.

Dunno why people are confused about this. Nothing's changing—if Access didn't like what we were doing, they'd probably have paid 80% over the last stock price to merge with some different company, hm?

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), Palm OS Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/11/2005 3:35:00 AM # Q
Classic shill FUD. Thanks. :)

Don't be an idiot.

The PDA market has grown since the days when palm was the only show in town

On this, congratulations, you're actually correct. Huzzah!

yet the Palm OS maintains the largest installed base and developer community by multiples.

This is misleading. Palm's estimates of their "installed base" are based on EVERY UNIT they've ever sold, and assuming that they're all still in active service. And nobody disagrees that Palm has sold a lot of units over the years, but nobody wins a horserace by saying "Gee, didn't I do so well last week?" You have to keep moving units, and while Palm is still the #1 single manufacturer, the marketshare is moving very much in the wrong direction.

Despite the huge lead

I take it that by "huge lead," you mean "the other guy sells two units to our one?" Hint: If you're not competing in the current market, you're not competing. You don't get to take nostalgia breaks.

the Palm OS continues to innovate

I must have missed that memo where Palm OS got a modern development framework, multitasking, native flash memory support, push email, a modern browser, VOIP...

Considering the amount of cash m$ has sunk, it is pathetic that the wince platform continually trails behind in terms of innovation, constantly copying Palm.

And you have the sheer unmitigated gall to accuse me of lying? What, pray tell, has Palm "innovated" in the last few years? One handed navigation? Hardly the most original thing in the world, considering that not only was it Handspring that made it, but they basically took it from cell phones. If anything, Palm is copying Windows--fast processors, high res screens, Bluetooth, WiFi, flash memory, etc..

The degree to which you have to twist reality to come up with this is astonishing. If there were a realism police, you'd be in chains.

Yes, there are wince devices with higher res screens, but that's hardly what the unbiased would call "innovation". I'm looking forward to a day when m$ "invents" PDAs with non-volatile memory, smartphones with keyboards, and devices with hard drives built in. Wow. Just imagine.

Uh, there have been devices with non-volatile memory and keyboards for about 2-3 years now. Try to keep up. As for hard drives, any PocketPC with a CompactFlash slot can use one, dating back to 2001. There are also Windows devices with built in hard drives in sizes up to 20 GB. They're called Portable Media Players, and while I think that they're ridiculous, they exist, and yes, they were here well before the LifeDrive.

Palm didn't "innovate" anything about flash memory, hard drives, or keyboards either. Sharp had both flash memory and HDs years before Palm. They had keyboards too, and Handspring had keyboards on their smartphones.

But really, how long do you think wince developers are going to stick around once they realize that m$ will not need two tablet PC O/Ss moving forwards?

You've been listening way too much to Jeff Kirvin. That man will rot your brain. Tablet PCs are ten times too bulky, expensive, and delicate to even consider being a pocketable system in the next several years. This fantasy that Tablet PCs are going to replace handhelds is just that--fantast. In 3-5 years, you might be able to build something as cheap and durable as an Axim running on Windows XP with a decent processor and storage. But that's hardly a trouser-crapping event for Windows developers. By the time XP handhelds become practical, they will have had to update their apps fifteen or twenty times already.

Obviously wince is doomed: its developer base is tiny compared to either palm, linux, or that of the PC:

Yeah, compare a handheld developer base to the PC. That's logical. In any event, Windows Mobile has a quite adequate number of developers--certainly at least as many as the actual developers that Palm has, once you subtract from that 400,000 figure the number who put in an email address so that they could download the emulator. Oh, you did realize that PalmSource counts them as "developers," right? I think that I'm actually 3 or 4 of those developers. Funny how that number hasn't changed upwards in the last couple of years, isn't it. I would think that with a platform that's "dominating" the market, they would be attracting new developers.

Reminder: it was a Windows developer who created TCPMP. Show a little gratitude.

m$ must be planning to eliminate it.

So you're a psychic now? I can make the same argument about Palm--they've only got 2-3 licensees, they must be planning to can it. Oh, Microsoft has 40+ licensees? Hmm.

This is the same tired, stupid line that's been going around here for years. You guys think that if you just ignore Windows, if you put your fingers in your ears and hum really loud, it will go away. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. They already own two thirds of the market, and the WM division is finally approaching profitability. You really think that Microsoft is going to just take their toys and go home? It didn't work when Microsoft had 10% of the market. It's not going to work with them having 65% of the market.

The sad irony is that if Palm themselves hadn't adopted this very same "strategy," they might have stayed on top.

Current PDAs are almost powerful enough to run PC-style operating systems like linux or XP for tablet PCs right now. I'd give wince a year at most.

Not even close. Do you really think that XP would run on a 600 MHz RISC processor with 64 MB RAM and 128 MB of storage? Hell, XP requires at least 128 MB of RAM and hundreds of megs of storage just for the OS, let alone running any programs. To realistically run it as an actual desktop, you're talking about doubling or tripling the processor speed, 256 MB of RAM, and at least 2 GB storage. You really think that current PDAs have all that?

Simple reasoning knocks you down. You need to stop listening to Jeff Kirvin.

And even if we did play with your ludicrous scenario, what changes? Then Windows would have an even bigger advantage in the mobile space, since they can say "Runs Windows XP!" You know how big a selling point that would be? It would be huge. You're fantasizing about something that would give Microsoft another 20% of marketshare.

Lefty said:
Gee, and here I thought we'd been stating pretty clearly what the future of the Palm [OS] platform is for the better part of a year now.

Which means nothing when you've just been bought out. Paying an outrageously high price for a company, then killing the supposed next generation product sure would be stupid, but I've seen FAR stupider things occur.

Fortunately, Access has issued a statement saying that they intend to continue licensing and supporting Garnet, as well as continuing development on Linux. Apparently, they agreed with me that a clarification was neccessary. Thanks for backing me up, Access.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
svrontis @ 9/11/2005 3:37:11 AM # Q
Guys,

Rebutting the M$ sponsored FUD campaign here at PIC is a good start. However, more needed to be done. The next step is to take the fight up to them over at pocketpcf@rts.com. Maybe, when Ed Hansberry gets a taste of his own medicine, he will call off his flunkies, and we might get some peace and quiet here at PIC. (Don't bet on it though).

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 4:02:06 AM # Q

Mr Opinion, can you remove Dr from your name. The complete lack of substance in your assertions will make me lose respect for those professionals, which you clearly are not.

Surur

BTW, try some numbers if you want anyone accept svrontis to believe you.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
svrontis @ 9/11/2005 4:03:00 AM # Q
Some suggested themes which could be developed further at pocketpcf@arts.com:

1. HP's line of handheld computers is doomed, due to a cost-cutting induced death spiral initiated by their new CEO.

2. WinMob is a dead-end platorm, to be replaced by Vista next year. Why are WinMob developers wasting their efforts on this dying platform?

3. M$ is disgusted with the smartphones produced by its own licencees, so it is 'getting with the strength' by helping carriers to produce a WinMob Treo. What do the existing WinMob licensees think about their fees to M$ being used to subsidise a competitor?

4. Will MinMob ever make a profit?

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
svrontis @ 9/11/2005 4:14:57 AM # Q
> Mr Opinion, can you remove Dr from your name. The complete lack of substance in your assertions will make me lose respect for those professionals, which you clearly are not.

You are certainly the expert when it comes to 'complete lack of substance'.

No wonder you been banned from posting over at 1src.com. Still I see you are continuing you efforts here. Of course, whether it is at 1src.com or here, your FUD is always as boring as it is irrelevant.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/11/2005 4:24:43 AM # Q
svrontis, for the umpteenth time, you're only embarassing yourself. Please do go to PocketPCThoughts.com. You'll find that really, nobody there cares about Palm or PalmOS. You're the only one envisioning a campaign against PIC. Ed Hansberry barely mentions Palm, and he dedicates far more effort to bashing Bluetooth.

The people who are here are here because by and large, they care about what's going on, and they have strong opinions. Because the opinion of the majority doesn't match yours, obviously it's a sign of conspiracy.

If HP's in trouble, it's because their most recent line of releases simply sucked. New cost-cutting measures had nothing to do with it: they got stupid and they took design in-house instead of farming it out to HTC. The latter got them their most critically acclaimed iPaqs--the former got them hideous grey rectangles that nobody likes. They thought they could fly with the eagles, and they got sucked into a jet engine.

See my lengthy screed above for why desktop OSes on a handheld are pure fantasy.

First you deny that there is a WM Treo, then you say MS is sponsoring it? Make a choice. In any event, according to the WM division, their only role with licensees is in terms of technology consultation and briefings.

The WM division looks likely to make a profit this year. They've upped revenue, reduced cost, so they're within something like $7 million of profitability, if I recall correctly.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 10:49:29 AM # Q
Adam claims "Fortunately, Access has issued a statement saying that they intend to continue licensing and supporting Garnet, as well as continuing development on Linux. Apparently, they agreed with me that a clarification was neccessary. Thanks for backing me up, Access."

I believe the statement was that "existing deployments" of Garnet will continue to be supported. This is to say that we're not going to be pulling the rug out from any current projects or shipping devices.

You asked about "the future of the Palm [OS] platform," not the past.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), Palmsource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 11:17:09 AM # Q
AdamaDBrown comments "I take it that by "huge lead," you mean "the other guy sells two units to our one?" Hint: If you're not competing in the current market, you're not competing. You don't get to take nostalgia breaks."

This is just about the point where I get to mention that the Kyocera 7135, a rather aged Palm OS 4-based phone, has outsold all of the Pocket PC/Windows Mobile/etc. phones made by all of Microsoft's licensees, put together.

The Treo's sold a lot better than the Kyocera.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), Palmsource Core Technologies

Kyocera 7135 outsold ALL PPC/WM/etc. phone PUT TOGETHER!
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 11:49:54 AM # Q

You are going to have to substantiate that statement.

Surur

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/11/2005 2:02:30 PM # Q
> I must have missed that memo where Palm OS got a modern
> development framework, multitasking, native flash memory
> support, push email, a modern browser, VOIP...

How'd you do that? You're in a thread discussing the modern browser addition. Didn't you know that Linux has had multitasking from day one?

Hmm... "Native flash memory support" /me checks job description. Yup, that's there too. (JFFS2 for NOR, YAFFS2 for NAND)

...

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

Marty, Explain NVFS
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 2:09:59 PM # Q

As you were intimately involved in NVFS, the single biggest factor in undermining the stability of POS 5, can you explain:

a) Where is comes from (I understand its backported from Cobalt)
b) Why it causes so many problems with third party software.
c) Whether the current system will carry over to POS Linux (ie. no real filesystem, database approach, SDRAM being mirrored to non-volatile memory)
d) What made Palm think they could use a HDD for NV memory. (surely Palm consulted PSRC on this).

Surur

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 2:22:19 PM # Q
No, he can't explain any of that. Buy a license if you're that curious.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 2:31:07 PM # Q
PenguinPowered writes "Didn't you know that Linux has had multitasking from day one?"

Gee, didn't we decide to take that out...?

I am Jack's rolling eyes.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 2:45:04 PM # Q

Lefty, you still haven't explained about Kyocera 7135 outselling ALL PPC/WM/etc. phones PUT TOGETHER.

Also I would not be surprised if you take out multi-tasking from POL. Even Cobalt does not have traditional multi-tasking. How will POL work with the much vaunted 30 000 legacy POS apps? Will they multi-task too.

You guys are in a unique position to explain these questions, but you rather go around making empty statements and "rolling my eyes"

Surur

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/11/2005 3:05:56 PM # Q
Lefty said:
I believe the statement was that "existing deployments" of Garnet will continue to be supported. This is to say that we're not going to be pulling the rug out from any current projects or shipping devices.

By "existing deployments, including Palm OS Garnet," I read that they don't intend to discontinue their existing OS for the forseeable future. You're also missing the bit of the statement where they say "We really don't expect any changes in the relationships that we have with licensees." To me, that says that PalmSource will be continuing as they have been, and the buyout won't seriously hamper any new devices.

This is just about the point where I get to mention that the Kyocera 7135, a rather aged Palm OS 4-based phone, has outsold all of the Pocket PC/Windows Mobile/etc. phones made by all of Microsoft's licensees, put together.

That's more that grossly inaccurate, it's just flat out wrong. This is a myth that the PalmSource people started. The 7135 barely even made it off the ground, and it was never a good seller. It came out far too late, running OS 4.1, and was thrown up against the Treo 600 running OS 5 and the massive PR campaign that came with the Treo. I would be shocked if the 7135 sold more than 50,000 units.

WM Smartphones sell about a million units a year, give or take. PPC phones sell another million. Care to explain how a Palm phone that was antiquated when it was released and hasn't been available for years managed to outsell all Windows phones? Even the Treo 650 only sells about 1.2 million a year.

Penguin said:
How'd you do that? You're in a thread discussing the modern browser addition. Didn't you know that Linux has had multitasking from day one?

Netfront isn't available for Palm OS except by copying it from a Clie. Palm OS does not have multi-tasking: PalmLinux counts for nothing until it's in the hands of a user. Remember, Cobalt was supposed to have multitasking too. Nor does the current version of PalmOS have native flash memory support--it was hacked in aftermarket.

Surur: perhaps someone else can correct me, but as I recall, the flash memory support in Garnet actually wasn't backported from Cobalt, but was original code done by Palm(One)'s people.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 3:47:54 PM # Q
AdamaDBrown, no NVFS can be laid fully at the feet of PSRC.

Fine Tuning Applications with NVFS
Discuss the history of non-volatile file system (NVFS) memory and how to optimize solutions to leverage this feature for persistent databases on NAND file systems. Learn about the layout of database files, how the cache works, and the best ways to debug issues using special simulator builds that have tracing enabled. Find out how to avoid problems with compatibility or performance as well as how to find the best fixes and optimization for NVFS.

http://www.palmsource.com/events/devcon2005/session_info.html

Its funny that these PalmSource senior manager would not discuss NVFS here, when they freely discuss the sordid mess at their developer conference.

Surur



So now the PalmSource Kiddies are on the defensive...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 3:54:52 PM # Q
>>>Some of us, who aren't automatically biased, would like a clear-cut answer from them as to what the future of the Palm platform is.

Gee, and here I thought we'd been stating pretty clearly what the future of the Palm [OS] platform is for the better part of a year now. I was certainly clear about it in my presentation at the Developer Conference back in May.

The future is "Palm OS for Linux"; (the majority of) "Protein"—i.e. Cobalt—developer APIs will be supported, (the majority of) Linux APIs will be exposed, 68K compatibility will be delivered via PACE, as on Garnet.

We worked (modulo a break for a comm meeting and some cake) as diligently yesterday, post announcement, as we did the day before, pre-announcement; we're ****ing off now 'cause it's the weekend, but we'll all be back at work Monday morning.

Dunno why people are confused about this. Nothing's changing—if Access didn't like what we were doing, they'd probably have paid 80% over the last stock price to merge with some different company, hm?

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), Palm OS Core Technologies


Mr. Schlesinger, you PalmSource people need to cut the B.S. once and for all. Your PalmLinux development timeline suggests to me that once again it will be too little, far too late. Do you really have the engineering resources to deliver PalmLinux in time for the market to give a damn, David? I don't think so. What I'm seeing is the same arrogance and the same mistakes as I saw with PalmOS 6 (Cobalt) development. Nothing has changed except who's calling the shots. (Looks like the Holy Be Engineers rubbed off on you...)


Its all fine and dandy to make casual statements like "The future is "Palm OS for Linux"; (the majority of) "Protein"—i.e. Cobalt—developer APIs will be supported, (the majority of) Linux APIs will be exposed, 68K compatibility will be delivered via PACE, as on Garnet." But it's another thing to actually DELIVER on those promises. And by "deliver" I mean within a timeframe that doesn't leave you holding a product BeOS-style that the market could not care less about.

I've been advocating for a switch to PalmLinux for around 4 years now, but at this point in time, even I have my doubts that PalmSource has what it takes to deliver. So far NOTHING I've been told about your current position on the development timeline reassures me that things will be completed in time for PalmLinux to matter in the marketplace. The sense of urgency seems to be lacking. Mr. Fouts has played his dumba$$ routine to the hilt in response to my posts here over the past three weeks. I've tried to be restrained in my responses. My assertion that PalmSource engineers need to be working "overtime" on completing PalmLinux ASAP still stands. Can you tell us with any honesty when you estimate PalmLinux will be go GM? March, 2007 seems to be the earliest date likely. That's over 6 months too late.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 4:19:06 PM # Q
Also I would not be surprised if you take out multi-tasking from POL. Even Cobalt does not have traditional multi-tasking. How will POL work with the much vaunted 30 000 legacy POS apps? Will they multi-task too.

Well, you're extremely credulous, then. I don't know what you mean by "traditional multitasking" if you're claiming that Cobalt didn't have it. Existing apps, as I've said, will work wihin the PACE environment, as they do on Garnet and Cobalt. I similarly don't know what you mean by asking whether applications written for a single-threaded environment will "multitask".

As far as relative sales figures go, the information is based on internal competitive analysis, drawing from sources like IDC, Canalys, etc. You're welcome to subscribe and validate for yourself if you like, but I'm in R&D, not marketing. Kyocera's still selling the 7135, by the way.

By the way, that information on NVFS was "freely available" to paying attendees at our developers conference. You might also note that the session you reference was given by an employee of Palm, and not PalmSource; maybe you should ask them rather than us.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

More LIES from the PalmSource Kiddies:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 4:26:19 PM # Q
This is just about the point where I get to mention that the Kyocera 7135, a rather aged Palm OS 4-based phone, has outsold all of the Pocket PC/Windows Mobile/etc. phones made by all of Microsoft's licensees, put together.

Well David, this is just about the point where I get to say, "That's a load of B.S." Instead of parroting the manure they've been feeding you at PalmSource, why don't you post something that's actually TRUE? If you believe what you said about the Kyocera sales, please post a link corroborating your statement. Otherwise, please retract it and apologize for spouting such nonsense here. You know better than that, David.

AdamaDBrown wrote: I must have missed that memo where Palm OS got a modern development framework, multitasking, native flash memory support, push email, a modern browser, VOIP...

So PenguinPowered spews "Didn't you know that Linux has had multitasking from day one?"

And then David Schlesinger adds Gee, didn't we decide to take that out...?

I am Jack's rolling eyes.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

Love the sarcasm, David. Here's some more: Gee, I didn't know PalmLinux was already shipping on available devices. If you're going to post here, at least try to be courteous and address the issues that are actually raised by members of the community. We are the people buying your products and advocating for PalmOS in The Real World. Some of us here are personally responsible for hundreds (and thousands) of sales of PalmOS devices having been made. The smarmy smarta$$ routine reflects poorly on PalmSource. You and Marty could learn a thing or two about defending PalmSource in public without coming across as utter a-holes. I hope I don't have to say that again.

Your Pal,

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 4:33:43 PM # Q
Do you really have the engineering resources to deliver PalmLinux in time for the market to give a damn, David?

Well, obviously I do, or I wouldn't be here, I'd be back at Apple working on OS X or iPods or domething.

I don't think so.

Well, everyone's entitled to an opinion, even if it's completely uninformed, I guess.

But it's another thing to actually DELIVER on those promises. And by "deliver" I mean within a timeframe that doesn't leave you holding a product BeOS-style that the market could not care less about.

Well, I guess you'll just have to wait and see. I guess you can use the time to figure out how you're gonna make up your losses, hm?

I've been advocating for a switch to PalmLinux for around 4 years now...

Having been involved in the decision not to go with Linux some four years ago, I can tell you with no hesitation that, at the time, it was absolutely the correct decision. Before you get me to take your opinions here seriously, you'll need to tell me how many commercial OS's you've helped to develop and ship.

...but at this point in time, even I have my doubts that PalmSource has what it takes to deliver.

From all appearances you had doubts that the stock price could go in any direction but down, and we've seen how that turned out, eh?

So far NOTHING I've been told about your current position on the development timeline reassures me that things will be completed in time for PalmLinux to matter in the marketplace. The sense of urgency seems to be lacking.

Well, given that you're operating on a basis of pretty complete ignorance, it seems, and since I'm not in a position to share confidential information with you, it's difficult to imagine what might "reasure" you. It's more difficult to imagine why I'd even bother to try.

I've tried to be restrained in my responses.

Hm. "You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it does."

My assertion that PalmSource engineers need to be working "overtime" on completing PalmLinux ASAP still stands. Can you tell us with any honesty when you estimate PalmLinux will be go GM? March, 2007 seems to be the earliest date likely. That's over 6 months too late.

Well, given that you have no idea of a) where we are on the project, b) how many people we have working on this or c) what we're actually working toward, your assertion wouldn't seem to amount to much, nor do your estimates. As far as schedule specifics go, we tend to share that sort of information with licensees, etc., who pay for the privilege, rather than post it on random public fora.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technlogies

PalmSource managers playing dumb? Or not playing?
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 4:44:23 PM # Q
"You might also note that the session you reference was given by an employee of Palm, and not PalmSource; maybe you should ask them rather than us."

I hope you are not disavowing NVFS. Palm seems to insist that its your baby.

1 Where can developers learn more about NVFS? The NVFS technology was developed by PalmSource.

http://tinyurl.com/4nfnl

And you know full well what I mean by traditional multi-tasking. Do you guys specialize in playing dumb? Cobalt, with its single process, multiple crash-vulnerable background threads does NOT do traditional multi-tasking.

I'm sure people would love to hear if POL will continue this tradition of making it tougher for developers to write for your platform.

Surur


RE: PalmSource Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 4:56:30 PM # Q
Lefty, you still haven't explained about Kyocera 7135 outselling ALL PPC/WM/etc. phones PUT TOGETHER.

He won't be able to explan it because it's simply not true. Someone at PalmSource said this last spring and now suddenly everyone is pretending it's true. The Kyocera sales have become an Urban Legend in less than 6 months. Pretty impressive. (I've already heard a dozen fairly intelligent developers parrot this "fact" in the past few months, so PalmSource's Ministry of FUD should be proud.)

Also I would not be surprised if you take out multi-tasking from POL. Even Cobalt does not have traditional multi-tasking. How will POL work with the much vaunted 30 000 legacy POS apps? Will they multi-task too.

PalmLinux will multitask in the "traditional" way I believe you're referring to (i.e. like Windows or Linux). Cobalt's architecture was one of it's THREE Achilles' heels, but let's not beat that dead horse (pig?) any more here. Legacy PalmOS apps (that aren't written for Protein APIs) will be supported only under PACE and obviously won't multitask. I would expect you already knew that, Surur - please cut the "innocent act".

You guys are in a unique position to explain these questions, but you rather go around making empty statements and "rolling my eyes"

Surur

David and Marty need to be careful about statement they make in public, especially since PalmSource is in the process of an ownership change. At this point in time no one really knows how all of this will play out. We can only hope that things don't get any more FUBARed or delayed than they have already become.


TVoR, Inc.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 5:00:15 PM # Q
Your information is definitely inaccurate: Cobalt is not a "single process" operating system, by any definition.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 5:05:54 PM # Q
We are the people buying your products and advocating for PalmOS in The Real World.

From all appearances, you at least seem to be a representative, rather, of the people who've shorted our stock and got caught with their pants down, hm, "jihadevil"...?

Sorry For The Inconvenience.

By the way, you don't know me well enough to be on a first-name basis with me.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 5:12:41 PM # Q

David, Dave, Davie... stop playing dumb. So Cobalt has 5 or 6 processes, stop splitting hairs. How about answering the question asked, instead of trying to divert attention.

Question: Will POL just be Cobalt on Linux? If not, how not?

Regarding paying for information. Guess what, the people who buy your OS pay your salary. As you refuse to be forthcoming, maybe they should stop buying POS devices.

Oh I forgot, people have decided to do this already. The arrogance of some people.

http://www.canalys.com/pr/2005/r2005071.htm

Surur

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 5:21:48 PM # Q
So Cobalt has 5 or 6 processes, stop splitting hairs.

Pardon me for correcting your gross inaccuracies. It's just that when you make statements like "single process", you either seem ignorant of what you're talking about or (in the case where you come back with a response clearly indicating that you knew what you were saying in the first place wasn't the case at all) duplicitous.

Will POL just be Cobalt on Linux? If not, how not?

That's not a very meaningful set of questions, but here's a stab at concrete answers: "No"; "lots of ways". Beyond that, there's general information available on the PalmSource web site. If you can manage to come up with a better-framed question, perhaps I'll have a go at answering it...

Well, the people who "buy our OS" and "pay my salary" are our licensees, as I've been saying. There's plenty of public information on our "Palm OS for Linux" plans up on the web site.

NVFS was a PalmSource Production™
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 5:50:34 PM # Q
Surur: perhaps someone else can correct me, but as I recall, the flash memory support in Garnet actually wasn't backported from Cobalt, but was original code done by Palm(One)'s people.


NVFS was done by PalmSource, with a little extra work by Palm. PalmSource's Ben Combee apologized profusely for the NVFS Debacle at DevCon.

TVoR, Inc.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/11/2005 5:53:50 PM # Q
> As you were intimately involved in NVFS, the single biggest
> factor in undermining the stability of POS 5, can you explain:

Are you catching Skippy's reading comprehension problem?

I had nothing to do with NVFS, as I've already pointed out.

I've never worked for Palm, and I only started working at PalmSource in November. Do try to keep up.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/11/2005 6:02:46 PM # Q
> You and Marty could learn a thing or two about defending
> PalmSource in public without [...].

Poor Skippy, confused again. I'm not defending PalmSource, Skippy. I'm merely having a lot of fun pointing out the gaping holes in your arguments.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: PalmSource shills going down in flames
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 6:11:44 PM # Q
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 2:09:59 PM said:

"As you were intimately involved in NVFS, the single biggest factor in undermining the stability of POS 5, can you explain:

a) Where is comes from (I understand its backported from Cobalt)
b) Why it causes so many problems with third party software.
c) Whether the current system will carry over to POS Linux (ie. no real filesystem, database approach, SDRAM being mirrored to non-volatile memory)
d) What made Palm think they could use a HDD for NV memory. (surely Palm consulted PSRC on this).

Surur"

Then Marty Fouts said:

> As you were intimately involved in NVFS, the single biggest
> factor in undermining the stability of POS 5, can you explain:

Are you catching Skippy's reading comprehension problem?

I had nothing to do with NVFS, as I've already pointed out.

I've never worked for Palm, and I only started working at PalmSource in November. Do try to keep up.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department"

Ummm... Marty you appear to be confused, as usual. (Unless you call everyone who makes you look like an idiot, "Skippy".) The Voice of Reason and Surur ("sr4") are two different contributors to this discussion. Perhaps you need a program? Very well.

Cast of Characters:

PenguinPowered - Marty Fouts (PalmSource employee; slow-witted Palminfocenter poster; the butt of many jokes in the past few weeks)

stonemirror - David Schlesinger (PalmSource employee; manager in charge of cobbling together PalmLinux from various bits and pieces of code scavenged from Cobalt + ARM Linux + Bubba's Discount OS Shoppe; yet another refugee from Apple that has ended up working for one of the Palm Companies™; actually a nice guy in real life despite the role he plays on TV)

sr4 - Surur (Windows Mobile user from the UK; clever debater; frequent so-called "troll" banned from several Palm enthusiast sites)

The Voice of Reason - ? (PalmOS advocate; relentless critic who will not suffer fools gladly; CLIE expert; president of the Mike Cane Fanclub; author; Dianne Hackborn admirer ;-O; myth debunker; Treo 600 victim; TRG/HandEra fan; MPD sufferer ;-O; outsider with ABSOLUTELY NO INSIDER INFORMATION WHATSOEVER; well-respected pundit; drinking partner of JL Gassée; software publisher; amateur codemonkey (PDA Toolbox Murders, Baby!); beta tester extraordinaire; conscience of the PalmOS platform...)

AdamaDBrown - Adama D Brown (slightly Windows Mobile-leaning but otherwise fairly balanced moderator and reviewer at http://www.bargainpda.com/ ; honest + intelligent + trustworthy PDA critic; someone you people at PalmSource/Palm should hire as an advisor)

svrontis - Pitiful Fool


Now are you clear on who the players are in this thread? Now back to are regularly scheduled discussion...


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
Sam H @ 9/11/2005 7:07:18 PM # Q
Having been involved in the decision not to go with Linux some four years ago, I can tell you with no hesitation that, at the time, it was absolutely the correct decision.

I bet Motorola wish they'd known what you knew. ;-)

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 7:23:23 PM # Q
I don't believe Moto's brought out a Linux-based mobile device with an open programming model...

More importantly at the time, not only was Linux in a substantially more primitive state, but the legalities of working within the GPL were even less well-understood than they are today (when you can still ask the same question of Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen and get two different answers...)

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
twrock @ 9/11/2005 7:43:20 PM # Q
I've tried to be restrained in my responses.
If you're going to post here, at least try to be courteous....
(with tears of laughter rolling down my face)
Should I take all your other statements as seriously as those two?


_______________________
"Does ANYONE not realize that Palm will buy PalmSource?" The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/4/2005 4:11:35 PM
PalmSource Acquired By ACCESS Posted By: Ryan on Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:57:19 PM

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

ATTN: David Schlesinger
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 7:47:14 PM # Q
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 7:59:17 PM # Q
Marty you appear to be confused, as usual.

Well, somebody is. Marty didn't call Surur "Skippy," he wondered whether the former might be developing similar comprehension problems to the latter. Case in point, I guess.

...manager in charge...

Director, thanks.

...Apple refugee...

Nuh-uh. Left under my own steam, my choice, not theirs.

...actually a nice guy in real life despite the role he plays on TV


This, for sure, is an absolute falsehood.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

PS. "I think that's the worst thing I've ever heard. How marvelous!"

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
Dr Opinion @ 9/11/2005 8:06:30 PM # Q
How transparent! People who support the palm platform and discuss it reasonably are described with insults; obvious shills and misplaced wince advocates described as "balanced" or "clever".

sr4 - Surur: Knows little about Palm platform and less about Linux; responds to any thread with FUD or wince specs; repeated pathetic attempts to evangelize the dying wince platform even though we're on PIC and *no-one* *cares*. Slightly desperate edge to his comments: one can only surmize that his career will end once an XP derivative runs on mobile devices. :)

The Voice of Reason: FUD spreader; claims constant criticism and negativity towards palm platform is intended to "help"; supports *all* and any shills and criticisms of palm platform regardless of merit. Rarely advocates wince directly, ergo seems a little smarter than sr and adama, might be their boss; obvious shill. If m$ isn't paying him for all this work, he's a sucker. :)

AdamaDBrown: Constant and tiresome wince advocate. Unable to leave any positive comment regarding palm OS standing -- on a palm site? Obvious use of pro-wince FUD in response to any and all comments regarding palm OS. Obvious and transparent shill. :)

Nothing personal: Just think of me as the "conscience of the m$ shills" :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

And, by the way...
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 8:12:50 PM # Q
The line is "Now you must die!", not "Prepare to die!"

I am absolutely, believe-you-me, the very last person you want to be misquoting movie lines to...

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies
Owner of More DVDs Than You


RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
twrock @ 9/11/2005 8:36:50 PM # Q
stonemirror, watch it again. You might have a lot of DVD's, but some of us have watched that one so many times we can play the parts.



_______________________
"Does ANYONE not realize that Palm will buy PalmSource?" The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/4/2005 4:11:35 PM
PalmSource Acquired By ACCESS Posted By: Ryan on Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:57:19 PM

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
twrock @ 9/11/2005 8:36:50 PM # Q
Surur: Will POL just be Cobalt on Linux? If not, how not?

stonemirrorThat's not a very meaningful set of questions, but here's a stab at concrete answers: "No"; "lots of ways". Beyond that, there's general information available on the PalmSource web site. If you can manage to come up with a better-framed question, perhaps I'll have a go at answering it...

Well, the people who "buy our OS" and "pay my salary" are our licensees, as I've been saying. There's plenty of public information on our "Palm OS for Linux" plans up on the web site.

Surur, I'm no software developer/linux guru/codemonkey either, but your questions do sound like you are mixing up the parts of what normal people refer to as the OS, parts like the kernel, API's, UI, etc. To be fair, I think guys like Lefty and Marty know very well what the common misunderstandings are and could "adjust" to our inaccuracies, but why should they? What they are doing is technical and so the technicalities are important. And in your case, you came right in and started to sound like TVOR with your accusations. Why in the world would you expect them to lob you softballs when you want to play hardball? You can't eat your cake and have it too.

If we want to have anyone like Marty, Lefty and Diane giving us any information at all, we need to show at least a modicum of common courtesy. Otherwise, we can let this forum just be TVOR's soapbox and we all lose out on the range of information that potentially makes this an interesting place to be. Please, I'm tired of only seeing TVOR's endless stream of conspiracy theories. We got it already! Yes, there is something "interesting" about them. But can't we have at least a little of something else as well?


_______________________
"Does ANYONE not realize that Palm will buy PalmSource?" The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/4/2005 4:11:35 PM
PalmSource Acquired By ACCESS Posted By: Ryan on Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:57:19 PM

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: PalmSource codemonkey beaten senseless by mercurial TVoR
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 9:51:40 PM # Q
>>Marty you appear to be confused, as usual.

Well, somebody is. Marty didn't call Surur "Skippy," he wondered whether the former might be developing similar comprehension problems to the latter. Case in point, I guess.

David, I'll explain and I'll use small words so that you'll be sure to understand... It all depends on how you read "catching" in "Are you catching Skippy's reading comprehension problem?" (catching = becoming aware of Vs. catching = contracting) and who Marty was addressing (Surur Vs. other readers) in his post.

Did you catch that?

By the way, David I do not mean to pry, but you don't by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?




TVoR

P.S. I'll let your previous misquote go, if you promise to ship PalmLinux by mid-2006 like "Honest" Michael Mace claimed you would...



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/11/2005 10:27:23 PM # Q
I'll use small words so that you'll be sure to understand...

No need to condescend, I'm more than happy to cross vocabularies with you at any point.

Did you catch that?

Well, let's see. You hit upon a fairly tortured and inobvious reading of what Marty was saying purely to use it as the basis for a free-floating snipe.

Either that, or you simply completely misread what Marty wrote and used your misunderstanding as the basis for a free-floating snipe.

I hear William of Occam sharpening up his razor, I think.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 12:08:39 AM # Q
No need to condescend, I'm more than happy to cross vocabularies with you at any point.

I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my brains.

I hear William of Occam sharpening up his razor, I think.

Indeed. I think it's time to shave he who is "the very last person you want to be misquoting movie lines to". Be careful not to sneeze.

"I'll explain and I'll use small words so that you'll be sure to understand, you warthog faced buffoon."


Ms. Hackborn is a lot more clever than you, David. Sorry.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 12:58:44 AM # Q
Ms. Hackborn is a lot more clever than you, David.

Indeed. That's why she's occupied architecting complex stuff. Me, I just get to manage big projects, meet with licensees and others, and generally bring joy (and occasional terror) to those around me.

It's a living.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 1:51:04 AM # Q
Read this thread on the plane tonight and laughed so hard that ginger ale and bits of honey-roasted peanut came out my nose. Gawd that hurt! Lefty, you've got to come by here more often. You wiggle your fingers and this Voice of Reason guy does the *funniest* dances.

In all seriousness, though, let me just take a moment to say thanks to all the PalmSource engineers--Lefty, Dianne, Mary--for sticking their necks out and contributing their thoughts here.

And for trying to make sense of TVoR. You don't *really* have to take his Tourette Syndrome-like outbursts seriously, you know, (I don't think many here do) but it really is awfully funny to watch him try to "argue" with you, Lefty. And Dianne, I think he actually *likes* you! Just has a strange way of showing it.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 2:29:44 AM # Q
> In all seriousness, though, let me just take a moment to say
> thanks to all the PalmSource engineers

Please don't call me an engineer. ;) I did my undergraduate work at an engineering school, and believe me, all claims to the contrary aside, software developers are not engineers. (Yeah, I know, swimming against the tide and all that.)

Of course, considering what it is that I do for PalmSource, software developer is an overstatement as well. Just think of me as the lead linux lizard, sometimes called oohlong.



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

PSRC Engineers do not contribute
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 2:58:15 AM # Q

They come here, but do not clarify, explain or contribute anything. Its above them to explain the failure of the platform to the Lusers. Remember, the customers are the licensees, not us. Lusers are seen with contempt.

I do not see why they deserve any respect.

Surur

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/12/2005 4:08:15 AM # Q
Lefty said:
As far as relative sales figures go, the information is based on internal competitive analysis, drawing from sources like IDC, Canalys, etc. You're welcome to subscribe and validate for yourself if you like, but I'm in R&D, not marketing.

Excuse me, but that's bulls--t. I know sales figures about as well as anyone, and you're flat out wrong. Now try again. Post a link to actual official sales figures showing this miraculous surge, or admit that you were parroting without knowing the facts. Come on. I bet it would feel real good to make me shut up.

Kyocera's still selling the 7135, by the way.

Yes, but Verizon isn't, so what Kyocera is doing is kind of irrelevant, isn't it? Unless you think 2 million people a year are buying the 7135 on Alltel, Western Wireless, and US Cellular.

Sam said:
I bet Motorola wish they'd known what you knew. ;-)

Moto would have been a disaster area anyway. Look at the

Dr. Clueless Opinion said:
AdamaDBrown: Constant and tiresome wince advocate. Unable to leave any positive comment regarding palm OS standing -- on a palm site? Obvious use of pro-wince FUD in response to any and all comments regarding palm OS. Obvious and transparent shill. :)

Boy, no part of reality penetrates that bubble of pure belief you surround yourself with, does it?

If I'm so off base, you should be able to look up the facts and prove me wrong, correct? Correct? Please, I dare you. The reality of the situation is that my statements are usually correct, and if they're not, I admit it. If I sometimes sound like I'm Palm-bashing, it's because sometimes it's warranted, or because it's neccessary to get through to some of the people here who don't get that it's not 2000 anymore. So I say again, if I'm wrong, prove it.

The irony is that the last time I was accused of being a paid shill, it was because I was defending the Palm LifeDrive. The great thing about trying to be fair is that then, you can get his by rocks thrown from both sides. Though my own tendancy towards being a Devil's advocate in any given situation doesn't really do me any favors.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/12/2005 4:08:15 AM # Q
Whoops, hit the post button before I finished my Motorola comments.

Sam said:
I bet Motorola wish they'd known what you knew. ;-)

Moto would have been a disaster area anyway. Look at the problems they had producing the MPx series, the v6xx quality gaffes, the notorious v710... Forgoing Linux would probably have saved them some development time, but not much more.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 4:55:58 AM # Q
> Yes, but Verizon isn't, so what Kyocera is doing is kind of
> irrelevant, isn't it? Unless you think 2 million people a
> year are buying the 7135 on Alltel, Western Wireless, and US
> Cellular.

That's an oddly north-american list of providers.

Maybe that's why you're confused about Kyocera sales levels? You've left out the largest cellphone markets in the world?



Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 5:50:13 AM # Q
Maybe that's why you're confused about Kyocera sales levels? You've left out the largest cellphone markets in the world?

Yes, Marty in my country - Vanuatu - the Kyocera 7135 is by FAR the most popular cellphone on the market Why last year alone the local carriers sold 4 of them! And in Fiji, 2 were sold. Nepal - 1, Bangladesh - 2, Kenya - 3 and France - 1. Are we at 2 million yet? No? OK.

Oh - I forgot - Libya sold 1,999,998

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
Sam H @ 9/12/2005 7:48:31 AM # Q
I don't believe Moto's brought out a Linux-based mobile device with an open programming model...

I don't believe any of your licensees have either...

More importantly at the time, not only was Linux in a substantially more primitive state, but the legalities of working within the GPL were even less well-understood than they are today (when you can still ask the same question of Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen and get two different answers...)

Moto's lawyers must have liked the answers they got. :-)

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 11:39:57 AM # Q
More likely, a company the size of Motorola can afford to make smaller investments in skunkworks projects that they know full well may never see the light of day for a variety of reasons.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 11:47:24 AM # Q
Maybe that's why you're confused about Kyocera sales levels? You've left out the largest cellphone markets in the world?

It's quite possibly a contributing facto, as is the apparent belief that Kyocera is no longer still selling the 7135...

S'okay; they keep sending us checks, I'm told...

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 12:09:35 PM # Q
I don't believe any of your licensees have either...

Wait for it...
—Gary Burghoff as "Cpl. Walter 'Radar' O'Reilly" in M*A*S*H*

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 12:15:26 PM # Q
I do not see why they deserve any respect.

Since you've never apparently bothered to treat anyone with any, this is not terribly surprising.

If we post here, it's as private citizens, not as representatives of PalmSource. If you want to talk to a representative of PalmSource, call our number and ask for the PR department.

We're in the course of an ongoing project, and as I've repeatedly pointed out, what we can say and can't say is going to be limited, by confidentiality concerns at the very least. We're also (just in case you'd forgotten) in the midst of an aquisition, which furthers induces us to be careful about what we say. Don't like that? Sorry. Can't help you.

Nor are we here (or are we obligated) to "explain the failure of the platform" to you, any more than you are here to explain your failure to stop beating your wife to me.

I'm certainly willing to share what information I can in the face of reasonable discourse (which would seem to leave you and the Mouth of Fantasy out); don't expect me to fall all over myself to be helpful in the face of insult, attempted rumor-mongering, and name-calling.

I'm just funny that way.

I don't like that, see?
—Ron Perlman as "Hellboy" in Hellboy

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

PS. Just to show you what a decent fellow I can be, I can tell you (as I told folks at the Developers Conference) that we will be using Linux's process model as-is; we will not be grafting the Cobalt process model onto Linux.

Finally a straight aswer.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 12:46:19 PM # Q
Just to show you what a decent fellow I can be, I can tell you (as I told folks at the Developers Conference) that we will be using Linux's process model as-is; we will not be grafting the Cobalt process model onto Linux.

Wow, a straight answer. Now was that so hard. I did not even have to pay to hear it either.

If you give more of these, and vacillate less, maybe people would respect you and your company more.

Surur


RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 1:05:01 PM # Q
I'm quite bereft that the main thrust of my response seems to have entirely eluded you.

I did not even have to pay to hear it either.

Don't get used to it. It's only free the first time, sonny.

If you give more of these, and vacillate less, maybe people would respect you and your company more.

I'm not sure I recall "vacillating." I don't do that much.

Ask sensible and reasonably-informed questions, stop giving every possible appearance of having some sort of axe to grind, treat people as though you were an actual adult rather than a petulant fourteen-year-old, and you'll very likely get better answers.

But there are lots of "people", and much as I hate to break it to you, I'm not sure you're especially representative. Some "people" evidently thought highly enough of the company (and, by extension, the folks who travail there) to offer a good price for whatever-the-heck-it-is we have to offer. I can understand that this may embitter some who've been predicting (with considerable patience, I might add) our imminent demise for some considerable while, but you just have to find a way to move beyond these things.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/12/2005 1:09:27 PM # Q
Penguin said:
Maybe that's why you're confused about Kyocera sales levels? You've left out the largest cellphone markets in the world?

Somebody's obviously confused, but it isn't me. The Kyocera 7135 is CDMA 800/1900. The only two counties on Earth with any kind of significant CDMA marketshare are the US and South Korea, and the 7135 isn't compatible with the networks in SK.

I can't believe that you're still defending this ludicrous assertion. You guys are simply unable to admit that it's a BS statement, despite the obviousness of the situation.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 1:30:05 PM # Q
Somebody's obviously confused, but it isn't me. The Kyocera 7135 is CDMA 800/1900. The only two counties on Earth with any kind of significant CDMA marketshare are the US and South Korea, and the 7135 isn't compatible with the networks in SK.

Huh.

The page at

http://www.kyocera-wireless.com/7135-smartphone/where-to-buy.htm

seems awfully strange, given all of that, doesn't it?


Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

The arrogance astounds me.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 1:46:22 PM # Q
But there are lots of "people", and much as I hate to break it to you, I'm not sure you're especially representative. Some "people" evidently thought highly enough of the company (and, by extension, the folks who travail there) to offer a good price for whatever-the-heck-it-is we have to offer. I can understand that this may embitter some who've been predicting (with considerable patience, I might add) our imminent demise for some considerable while, but you just have to find a way to move beyond these things.

Get this straight - the majority of the people investing their money did not think PSRC was worth much, hence your low stock price. This is a simple fact. Do not be fooled by the current bubble, which is simple attempts at profiteering. What do you think will happen to your stock price if this deal falls through?

I'm tiring of your arrogant attitude. Thousands of people paid $40 per share when PSRC started trading. Have you no shame for wasting their investment on a Cobalt wild goose chase? You should show a lot more humility. You fooled the board of this poor company to give you one more try again. Hopefully you wont fleece them in the same way.

Surur

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 9/12/2005 2:48:35 PM # Q
Jeez, Surur, you're starting to sound like Skippy the flying none.

The majority of people investing don't think any stock is worth its purchase price. This is why even the most widely held companies aren't held by the majority of investors.

Lefty *is* humble, surur. You must just not be used to dealing with successful people. I'm the one that's arrogant; but then I had nothing to do with Cobalt.

Since you're having trouble telling us apart, here's the easy rule of thumb: Lefty's entertaining and speaks Japanese. I'm pedantic and speak fortran.

kthxbye.


Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 3:00:11 PM # Q

Guilt by association Marty. You may want to be seen as individuals (is that what the charade was all about?) but I see you as representatives of your company. If you cant live with that don't post here.

BTW have you not heard of institutional investors etc. PalmSource's failure affects us all.

Surur

I'm lovin' it
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 3:54:10 PM # Q
Please keep it up, Marty & David. You two are confirming what I've said for years about the PalmSource/Palm engineering staff.

Go Marty! Go David!

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/12/2005 4:15:58 PM # Q
Lefty said:
The page at
http://www.kyocera-wireless.com/7135-smartphone/where-to-buy.htm
seems awfully strange, given all of that, doesn't it?

Are you reading impaired?

I repeat my statement: the only countries with any significant CDMA marketshare are the US and South Korea. Feel free to check the CDMA Development Group page, there are lots more countries that have tiny blurbs of CDMA coverage, but the only countries where the standard isn't a joke are the US and SK. Everyone else uses GSM 900/1800. Or do you really think that Chile, Ecuador, and Uruguay are buying two million smartphones a year?

This little red herring of yours still hasn't obscured for the simple fact that you are unable to provide any proof to back up your ludicrous assertion that the 7135 has outsold all Windows phones ever made. Because you can't, you're trying to obfuscate and pretend that it's incumbent on me to disprove your wild claims. It ain't. If you again refuse to post proof, then even you have to admit that you parroted PSRC propaganda without knowing the facts.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 4:41:38 PM # Q
If you again refuse to post proof, then even you have to admit that you parroted PSRC propaganda without knowing the facts.

Prediction: David will not have the cojones to publicly admit he didn't know what he was talking about.

We've seen the true PalmSource the past few days here at PIC. And these are the people in charge of coding PalmLinux! Yikes.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 5:38:32 PM # Q
Hey, take it or leave it, believe it or not; it's not germane to the discussion or the work we're doing, particularly.

David will not have the cojones to publicly admit he didn't know what he was talking about.

If that were so, I guess I'd just be following your example here. Why don't you enumerate for me all of the "correct predictions" you've made, hm...?

And these are the people in charge of coding PalmLinux!

If you're angling for a job, you're going to need to provide a resume.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/12/2005 6:05:44 PM # Q
Lefty said:
Hey, take it or leave it, believe it or not; it's not germane to the discussion or the work we're doing, particularly.

Are you talking about the Kyocera line? You don't get to toss out a whopper like that then say "Take it or leave it." Do you stand by the statement, or not? A simple yes or no answer, please. And if you do, proof is neccessary.

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 6:25:13 PM # Q
You don't get to toss out a whopper like that then say "Take it or leave it."

No?

Watch me.

Look, you've taken issue with every single response I've made on any subject whatsoever, ranging from touchscreen support to "the future of the Palm [OS] platform". Why do you even bother asking?

More importantly (to me, anyway) why should I knock myself out to attempt to satisfy you? That's like trying to "reassure" the Mouth over there. Feel entirely free to make further enquiries to PalmSource's Product Marketing department.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

Shame on you, David.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 6:38:01 PM # Q
>>>You don't get to toss out a whopper like that then say "Take it or leave it."

No?

Watch me.

Look, you've taken issue with every single response I've made on any subject whatsoever, ranging from touchscreen support to "the future of the Palm [OS] platform". Why do you even bother asking?

More importantly (to me, anyway) why should I knock myself out to attempt to satisfy you? That's like trying to "reassure" the Mouth over there. Feel entirely free to make further enquiries to PalmSource's Product Marketing department.

Love,

Lefty
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

Like I said, "David will not have the cojones to publicly admit he didn't know what he was talking about".

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 6:49:58 PM # Q
Oh dear, oh dear. Have I lost your high opinion of me, Mouthy?

However shall I carry on?

Wah! Waaaaah! Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaah-mbulance!
—Bruce Willis as "Russell Duritz" in The Kid

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

Goodness gracious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 7:29:24 PM # Q
Oh dear, oh dear. Have I lost your high opinion of me, Mouthy?

However shall I carry on?


Wah! Waaaaah! Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaah-mbulance!
—Bruce Willis as "Russell Duritz" in The Kid

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

"Mouthy"? Oh Dear. Remind me again when exactly it was that I had a high opinion of you?


"What we've got here is... failure to communicate"

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
Dr Opinion @ 9/12/2005 7:35:35 PM # Q
Astonishing, folks: it's "Attack of the shills". :)

Shills quibbling about palm OS technical specs: get over it, it's the better OS, more developers use it, and it has a future. Unlike wince. When the shills sound desperate and start to quibble about specs, it means they're trying to distract us from the main point: the future is looking rosy for the Palm platform! Sorry, voice-of-dumbness: just helping keep you "honest". :)

Shills complaining that the fantastic premium *paid* for PalmSource is a "bubble": It's not a bubble: it's the *price* that has been *paid*, in *cash*. . Stick to wince specs, sr: you sure don't have the smarts to discuss the market. :)

Shills complaining that people who actually work in the Palm eononomy shouldn't be posting in PIC: The irony is wryly amusing, and even more, this is great news... people the shills dislike are the people we should be listening to! If m$ had its way, the only people posting in PC would be the shills and wince advocates!

... of course, we won't let that happen. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 7:42:06 PM # Q
Remind me again when exactly it was that I had a high opinion of you?

About the same time I had a high opinion of you.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 8:01:12 PM # Q
Dr Opinion, whats the color of the sky in your fantasy land?

Surur

PalmSores™ engineers: time to GET BACK TO WORK!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 8:05:00 PM # Q
About the same time I had a high opinion of you.

Low opinion at first sight? Gosh. How sweet...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/13/2005 3:31:52 AM # Q
Lefty said:
Look, you've taken issue with every single response I've made on any subject whatsoever, ranging from touchscreen support to "the future of the Palm [OS] platform". Why do you even bother asking?

Right now? Probably because you're lying through your teeth, and I don't apprecciate that sort of thing. If, as you claim, it's my fault for being contrarian, certainly it should be a huge pleasure for you to toss that link to the Kyocera sales figures right in front of me and make me shut up.

Where's the link, Lefty?

Dr Opinion wrote: more of the same.

Doc, if you feel so strongly that I'm wrong, I heartily encourage you to smack me in the face with facts. I try to deal in facts whenever I can, and I know TVoR does as well. Even Surur, arguably the most anti-Palm member of the forum, usually bases his statements on the facts of the situation, even when he applies his own perspective to them.

Arguing with unfounded accusations, random unproven assertions, and outright falsehoods stated as fact, however--in other words, arguing the way you do--strikes me as the position of somebody who can't mount a defense on the merits of the subject.

The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is that the Palm platform has been ailing for awhile. There was a great message posted under the original article about the buyout, talking about how the original Palm got poisoned by incompetants, infighting, and corporate bloat. Those factors, along with steadily improving competition from Microsoft and low-end cell phones, have lead to the situation the platform is in right now, where their current OS should have been retired years ago, their marketshare has shrunk, and there's no prospect of a reinvigoration for at least 12-18 months. Palm has been bleeding from a thousand tiny cuts they sustained over the years, whether by leaving their OS5 flagship without an audio player for months, or leaving their entire product line without WiFi for years.

Some of us are more than a little bitter and annoyed by this. My very first experience with a Pocket PC was a Dell Axim X5 that I got in Decemeber 2002. At that point, I'd had my Palm m505 for almost a year, but I wanted something with a better screen and more features. The Tungsten T was tempting, but I went for the Axim because it had a CF slot for WiFi, an actual music player, removable battery, and multitasking. I said at the time that Palm would have the chance to win me back when they started shipping units with OS6.

Almost three years later, I'm still waiting.

The offer is still open, but the longer the platform goes without a competitive new OS, the less chance they have of bringing back people like me. Take a look in the forums on PocketPCThoughts.com. Easily half the people there, maybe more, are ex-Palm users. Most of them have settled in quite nicely, and with every added day, every neat new application, every OS update, they have less and less reason to return to Palm. They've adapted and become comfortable. It takes a major motivation for someone to dump an entire platform and start over, and Palm isn't providing it.

So here's what I'm getting at. I do not apprecciate being called a shill, particularly from a fanboy who's too ignorant to apprecciate what's happening to his own preferred platform. Sticking your head in the sand is the exact defense that Palm used for years, and now it's costing them. If you really gave a damn about the future of the Palm platform, you would be up in arms shouting with the best of them.

The Kyocera thing
cervezas @ 9/14/2005 12:42:46 AM # Q
For what it's worth, the claim Lefty is repeating was made in front of 900 developers during a keynote the first day of the May DevCon. I heard it, Lefty heard it, and even TVoR admits having heard it. Sorry that no one stopped the speaker and demanded the web link.

In any case, as I've said before, the statement wasn't that the Kyocera 7135 outsold all Windows phones, it was that it had outsold all devices running MS Smartphone OS. That is certainly a less dramatic (but also pretty misleading) statement that says more about the flop of Microsoft's Smartphone OS than it does about the success of the Kyocera 7135. For those who don't know, most smartphones that run Windows are using Pocket PC Phone Edition.

I don't know anything more about the actual numbers than probably any other of the developers at the conference, but I do know this: India has four major CDMA carriers and wireless subscribers that numbered 48 million in 2004. Before I'd conclude that the convention speaker was a liar I'd probably go check to see if a few of those folks have been buying the 7135, which Kyocera has for *some* reason seen fit to keep in production.

Can we move on?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

The Kyocera LIE
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/14/2005 2:48:21 AM # Q
For what it's worth, the claim Lefty is repeating was made in front of 900 developers during a keynote the first day of the May DevCon. I heard it, Lefty heard it, and even TVoR admits having heard it. Sorry that no one stopped the speaker and demanded the web link.

In any case, as I've said before, the statement wasn't that the Kyocera 7135 outsold all Windows phones, it was that it had outsold all devices running MS Smartphone OS. That is certainly a less dramatic (but also pretty misleading) statement that says more about the flop of Microsoft's Smartphone OS than it does about the success of the Kyocera 7135. For those who don't know, most smartphones that run Windows are using Pocket PC Phone Edition.

I don't know anything more about the actual numbers than probably any other of the developers at the conference, but I do know this: India has four major CDMA carriers and wireless subscribers that numbered 48 million in 2004. Before I'd conclude that the convention speaker was a liar I'd probably go check to see if a few of those folks have been buying the 7135, which Kyocera has for *some* reason seen fit to keep in production.

Can we move on?

Not so fast, Beersy. Blind acceptance of B.S. like this and lack of independent, critical thinking is PRECISELY why the PalmOS platform has floundered over the past 5 years. Trying to blow off a bold statement like that when it's so obviously false does not do anyone any favors.

At the time the statement was made (I think it was at the PUG meeting on the Monday by pa1mOne's Stephen McDonnell but I could be mistaken, since I was half-asleep - it might have been on the Tuesday) I raised my eyebrows but didn't say anything. I was shocked at how ****y the person relating this "fact" was when he said it even though it was obviously nonsense. Since that time, Kyocera's sales have become an oft-repeated "urban legend". This is the kind of B.S. I find so offensive about Palm/Palmsource. We hear all this "great" stuff about Cobalt, only to find out the OS is crap and not worth trying to fix. We hear how much they care about those "400,000" developers when it turns out that most likely, 395,000 of those people are really just regular end users that were forced to register as "developers" just to get access to POSE and the ROMs. (In fact, THREE or FOUR of those "developers" are me - I've forgotten my login info a few times and had to re-register over the years.) And why is it that those supposedly cherished developers are treated like absolute CRAP by Palm/PalmSource? Why is it that some of the best PalmOS developers have NOTHING positive to say about Palm/PalmSource? (I doubt Bercow will be able to make a difference at Palm. Things are just too far gone at this point.)

How many things have people like you rationalized away over the past 5 years?

- Inadequate RealRAM™ in LifeDrive
- Buggy-as-hell T5
- Buggy-as-hell NVFS
- Inadequate RAM + NVFS problems + crippled Bluetooth + build quality problems in Treo 650
- Horrible build quality in every Chinese-sourced Palm in the past few years. The Tungsten E should have been recalled.
- Almost no Wi-Fi models
- SD card-toasting T3
- Horrible build quality in Treo 600
- Cobalt = VAPORWARE
- Data "Mangler" destroying third party compatibility
- Peeling paint+ on Zire 72
- No VGA screens
- No dual wireless
- No dual expansion
- Every software release seems to be buggy beta code

Palm/PalmSource's motto should be "My bad!". Except they don't seem to care enough to even bother admitting when they've screwed up. Or trying to avoid making more mistakes in the first place.

Apologists like you and Jeff Kirvin see nothing wrong with not questioning whatever nonsense Palm/PalmSource feeds you. I, on the other hand (and Adama, and I would hope the silent majority here) expect more. I would suggest you stop trying to speak for/explain/protect Palm/PalmSource. They know exactly what they're doing and their actions + words speak louder than your words. Give it a rest, Beersy. Your "knight in shining armor" routine was old the first time you trotted it out and it ain't getting any younger .

By the way, how many of your claimed "48 million" CDMA customers in India could afford the Kyocera? Try again, Bubba. The Kyocera would have sold about as well as a steakhouse chain in India.



TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/14/2005 4:12:04 AM # Q
"I was shocked at how c0cky the person relating this "fact" was when he said it even though it was obviously nonsense."

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
AdamaDBrown @ 9/15/2005 1:42:16 AM # Q
In any case, as I've said before, the statement wasn't that the Kyocera 7135 outsold all Windows phones, it was that it had outsold all devices running MS Smartphone OS. That is certainly a less dramatic (but also pretty misleading) statement that says more about the flop of Microsoft's Smartphone OS than it does about the success of the Kyocera 7135.

In which case it's a slightly less grand lie, but no less false. Despite their enormous restrictions, the WM Smartphones are actually quite popular in Europe. All together, they still make up half of HTC's WM phone lineup. You're still talking about hundreds of thousands of units a quarter, nearly a million a year.

Why did PalmSource's David Schlesinger RUN & HIDE?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2006 1:09:36 PM # Q
With Marty and the others gone, sounds like he's an Army of One.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 1/14/2006 1:17:23 PM # Q
I'd guess Lefty left because you were too easy to slap around, Skippy. No challenge, no stay.

"all the others"? People are leaving PalmSource besides me Skippy? Do tell us more.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Astroglide SOLD OUT in Sunnyvale! Vaseline stocks declining.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/14/2006 3:14:23 PM # Q
I'd guess Lefty left because you were too easy to slap around, Skippy. No challenge, no stay.

Your unique version of reality is always... interesting, Marty.

People are leaving PalmSource besides me Skippy? Do tell us more.

I don't know what you're talking about, Martyr.

Did they at least use a little lubricant before they rode your a$$ like a donkey? Take care, Marty.

TVoR


;-O


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 1/15/2006 8:31:49 AM # Q
Nobody "ran and hid", Mouthy, I'm around. It's just that I have better things to do than to mull over your tediously repetetive sexual fantasies with you. Alert me if at some point, by virtue of the Law of Large Numbers of something, you achieve anything resembling "relevance", okay?

Y'know, in light of this latest foray, I'm starting to wonder when you'll start making postings accusing me of being a "SATANIST", too—oh, wait: you already tried that, more or less, didn't you? Musta been disappointing to you that no one particularly cares about my choices of reading material.

See if you can be a little more pointless and transparent, particularly when you start tossing free-floating nonsense like this laterst bargeload of rubbish into several month-old threads purely to keep your name on the front page here.

One can only speculate as to why those who have no achievements of their own to discuss seem happy to settle for a minimal and pseudonymous notoriety of the most pointless sort, but I guess that'd be their lookout, not mine.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or else!)

いい加減にしてよ...
stonemirror @ 1/15/2006 4:10:39 PM # Q
Oh, please, 馬鹿やめてぞ, spare me! If you want to quote at me from the "Big Page of Bad Japanese Words" (http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/jap.htm), the least you could do is be up front about it.

君の日本語は君のスペリングぐらい下手だよ! ザッケンなよ.

Enough. Write if you ever get a name.

Love,

恐ろしき大鏡石

RE: Access Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/15/2006 6:49:39 PM # Q
Oh, please, ”nŽ­‚â‚ß‚Ä‚¼, spare me! If you want to quote at me from the "Big Page of Bad Japanese Words" (http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/jap.htm), the least you could do is be up front about it.

ŒN‚Ì“ú–{Œê‚ÍŒN‚̃XƒyƒŠƒ“ƒO‚®‚ç‚¢‰ºŽè‚¾‚æ! ƒUƒbƒPƒ“‚È‚æ.

Enough. Write if you ever get a name.

Love,

‹°‚낵‚«‘勾Î

Google is your friend, David. You're so predictable.

I can get by in Japantown OK and I know how to order sushi all by myself thankyouverymuch.

Here's a clue: my name is probably in your Address Book.

Another clue: my name is probably also in Dianne Hackborn's Address Book (much to her chagrin - if she ever realizes it).

[If only you knew how to write a program to parse the set intersection...]

Final clue: The walrus was Paul.

If you can't figure it out with all that help, maybe you're not quite as clever as you like to think you are... Perhaps Dianne will be able to able to help you - assuming she's not getting too big for her pretty little britches and that she shows up to our next meeting on time.

Get back to work, David. Kamada-san has reason to reason to worry about his new tomodachi.

I.M.
Ronin

日本語を話せますか? 大丈夫です!
stonemirror @ 1/16/2006 12:36:08 AM # Q
I can get by in Japantown OK and I know how to order sushi all by myself thankyouverymuch.

本当に!英語話せて指差せる!驚かせることだよ!

Get back to work, David.

馬鹿、今日働かない。日曜日なんだよ。

Kamada-san has reason to reason to worry about his new tomodachi.

そうですか?君が鎌田さんに書いて。

Love,

恐ろしき大鏡石

RE: PalmSource and Palm p0Wn3d by Access Ninja Killers.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/16/2006 5:32:32 PM # Q
David, David, David... This is the last time I'll respond to your gutter-level "Japanese". [Let me guess: you spent a summer over in Tokyo right after college?]

Sign language does have it's purposes. For instance: guess which finger I'm pointing at you right now? You PalmSource kiddies need to get off your collective a$$es and start working 24/7 at getting a stable OS out the door. Every day is Monday in Japan. That's why their automobile industry crushed GM, Ford and Crysler. And it's also why you now have a Japanese master.

Palm really fcuked up big time by losing control of PalmOS. Benhamou et. al. were just a little too clever for their own good. Congratulations - no doubt you'll be able to parlay your limited linguistic abilities into some healty bonuses this year. Just make sure to spend a few ¥ picking up a Japanese LeapPad to go with those worn-out Hooked on Phonics® Hiragana® books you keep toting around.

Nice to see you've finally let go some of the dead wood like Marty Fouts. Maybe we'll finally see something out of PalmSource by, say... 2008. Take care.

I.M.

Ronin

P.S. I was just kidding about DK - I'm not really in her address book. Poor girl has enough on her plate as it is...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

The Pissing Contest is getting OLD
Gekko @ 1/16/2006 6:25:43 PM # Q

I wish all you schmucks would give it up.



RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
cervezas @ 1/16/2006 6:46:57 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:
I wish all you schmucks would give it up.

There's a reason why PalmInfocenter has been replaced by MobileRead as the best Palm/PDA site (http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2006/01/palm_addict_rea_3.html). More signal. Less noise.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
Gekko @ 1/16/2006 7:15:43 PM # Q

beersie - you're part of the noise.



RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 1/16/2006 7:49:36 PM # Q
which are you gekko, pot or kettle?


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 1/17/2006 12:31:22 AM # Q
I wish all you schmucks would give it up.

There's simply no satisfying people. The Mouth whines if I don't post, and the Lizard whines if I do.

Geeko begging for a good ole fashioned biotchslapping...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/17/2006 1:26:44 AM # Q
Keep it up, Geeko. Now that Mike Cane has passed away there's a position available here at Palminfocenter for village idiot. Looks like you might be overqualified.


I.M.

Ronin

And Another Thing! (or "ふざけにいでよ!")
stonemirror @ 1/17/2006 1:58:04 AM # Q
The Mouth of Pointless Drive-By Commentary stamps its foot and squeals, This is the last time I'll respond to your gutter-level "Japanese".

Heh. "Gutter-level", huh?

I guess that's your typically transparent way of saying that you're unable to respond. 大丈夫です。

Especially given your initial shambling foray into cut-n-paste mistranscribed Nihongo from somebody else's fan-boi web page having become personally embarassing enough to you that you seem to have requested that it be removed rather than face the ongoing pain of having to look at it.

No worries: I remember.

チンピラ、君も思い出して。Stick to gesturing and grunting, it seems more your metier.

It's been fun,

恐ろしき大鏡石

RE: Mr. Crowley Shill Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/17/2006 9:31:24 PM # Q
Heh. "Gutter-level", huh?

I guess that's your typically transparent way of saying that you're unable to respond. 大丈夫です。

Especially given your initial shambling foray into cut-n-paste mistranscribed Nihongo from somebody else's fan-boi web page having become personally embarassing enough to you that you seem to have requested that it be removed rather than face the ongoing pain of having to look at it.

No worries: I remember.

I did not ask Ryan to remove anything. The gutter-speak was entirely appropriate for your lowbrow level of conversation. I presume you dine on your shoe leather frequently when in Japan. Just another crude, gauche American...

チンピラ、君も思い出して。Stick to gesturing and grunting, it seems more your metier.

Guess which finger I'm pointing with now, David? What would ever happen to you if you lost your Hooked on Phonics® Hiragana® books? "Metier"??? Incroyable! Vous persistez toujours? Et maintenant vous introduisez français dans le mélange?

It's been fun,

恐ろしき大鏡石

Always a pleasure chatting with you, David. Well... not really. But at least you bring a nanogram more style to the table than that pathetic buffoon, Marty Fouts. Now that the PalmSource tree has been aggressively pruned of most of the diseased branches, perhaps it now has the chance of SOMEDAY bearing fruit. Too bad most of the Palm Faithful are finally giving up, one by one. Of course, Access couldn't care less what PDA users were hoping for from the platform...

What a waste of a good OS. Looks like the Be poison worked its (black) magic once again...


I.M.

Ronin



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

"Tu parles le japonais comme une vache espagnole..."
stonemirror @ 1/18/2006 10:21:17 AM # Q
Bien sûr, je parles le français aussi. Regardes: "Va te faire foûtre".

Ca veut dire la même chose, moins ou plus, que "ざかんなよ"; tu comprends, mon petit cafard?

Quelques personnes, sans noms mais ayant des bouches grandes, ont la capacité (apparemment sans limite) pour se faire apparaître quelques espèces d'idiots...

Lefty (le Grand et le Térrible)
Ministre d'Amusement

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/18/2006 10:45:19 PM # Q
Try to at least PRETEND you have a little class, David.

Palminfocenter is read by people of many nationalities, and your little gutter talk tirade above will not be appreciated by those who are easily offended.

Grow up.


RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 1/19/2006 9:59:57 AM # Q
This is a hilarious spectacle, Mouthy, your deep sensitivity and concern for the "easily offended".

Here you are, a specialist in crude vituperation, musing on the relative availabilities of KY Jelly versus Vaseline, offering "biotchslappings" to all and sundry, speculating (and more!) on various participants' sexual habits and predilections, making regular suggestions that being on the receiving end of forcible sodomy on the part of folks who get on your bad side would be a fine thing, not to mention your cheap (and futile) attempts at something like intimidation via "Google bombing" the names of other contributors across every page you can manage to mention 'em on.

And you're whining about my "gutter talk".

There's a term for that sort of thing, and you've attempted, at least, to use it yourself: hypocrisy.

And, between the two of us, I'm the one who knows how to spell it. You're still tediously transparent. The obvious reading of "Grow up" here is "Please, please! Leave me alooooooooooooone!"

Y'know, if you keep up in this vein, people will start to think that, despite your fondness for handing it out—or, let's say your inability to do little else other than hand it out—you don't manage taking a little yourself with even the slightest degree of grace.

Thanks for yet another conclusive demonstration of what of pointess, worthless and thin-skinned little troll you actually are. Fear not: I'm certain people of average intelligence, their "many nationalilities" aside, take you no more seriously than anyone else with two neurons to rub together does.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of More Fun Than You're Evidently Having

"...et une autre chose!"
stonemirror @ 1/19/2006 10:42:40 AM # Q
By the way, if you were attempting to say "You're still doing it", you want to say "Vous persistez encore", not "toujours", mon petit èspece de chameau.

君のフランス語も下手く話すよ!

Tout amour,

Lefty (le Grand et le Térrible)
Ministre d'Amusement et le Mot Juste

RE: PalmSource's David "Lucky Pierre" Schlesinger
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/20/2006 3:28:17 PM # Q
This is a hilarious spectacle, Mouthy, your deep sensitivity and concern for the "easily offended".

If you say so, David.

Here you are, a specialist in crude vituperation, musing on the relative availabilities of KY Jelly versus Vaseline,

Please post a link to where I said anything about KY Jelly. You lying little biotch.

offering "biotchslappings" to all and sundry,

Only to those who deserve it (like you).

speculating (and more!) on various participants' sexual habits and predilections,

I state facts. You should know that by now. Don't go getting all queer on me now...


making regular suggestions that being on the receiving end of forcible sodomy on the part of folks who get on your bad side would be a fine thing,

Pardon me???? W T F are you talking about, Pierre?

not to mention your cheap (and futile) attempts at something like intimidation via "Google bombing" the names of other contributors across every page you can manage to mention 'em on.

You think I wrote "David Schlesinger" in an attempt to get this page to come up at the top when someone does a Google search for "David Schlesinger"? What kind of sick fantasy world do you live in? Why would anyone be doing a search on you in the first place and why would you care if this page came up anyway? Are you insane?

And you're whining about my "gutter talk".

Your subject matter is merely puerile - it's your language skills that are truly primitive. It's ironic that you appear to think you're actually clever. They're not laughing WITH you, David. They're laughing AT you.

There's a term for that sort of thing, and you've attempted, at least, to use it yourself: hypocrisy.

And, between the two of us, I'm the one who knows how to spell it. You're still tediously transparent. The obvious reading of "Grow up" here is "Please, please! Leave me alooooooooooooone!"

More drama, please, David. It just serves to show everyone what a buffoon you really are.

Y'know, if you keep up in this vein, people will start to think that, despite your fondness for handing it out—or, let's say your inability to do little else other than hand it out—you don't manage taking a little yourself with even the slightest degree of grace.

I'm still waiting for ANYONE who knows how to "hand it out". Both you and Marty "Martina" Fouts tried and were sent back to the showers. Together. Beersy is still licking his (bultiple) wounds and whimpering to himself. RhinoSteve is dead. Jeff Kirvin ran away and has now given up on PDAs.

Thanks for yet another conclusive demonstration of what of pointess, worthless and thin-skinned little troll you actually are. Fear not: I'm certain people of average intelligence, their "many nationalilities" aside, take you no more seriously than anyone else with two neurons to rub together does.

Keep trying to demonstrate your linguistic abilities (or more accurately, deficiencies) by posting expletives in foreign languages here, David. Every post you make confirms what a lowbrow you are.

Take care.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
stonemirror @ 1/20/2006 5:32:46 PM # Q
Heh. An entire day and a half to mull things over, completely undistracted—and the actual discussion that went on in your otherwise-unremarked absence was notable—and this is the very best you could manage, eh?

Well, fine, 大丈夫です. You've been adequately shown up for the superficial and pretentious waste of space that you are, and it's pretty clear from these exchanges that you can't manage to back up anything you claim.

You lying little biotch.

Oh, pardon me. Astroglide, then.

In future, don't assume that if I don't waste further time on you that I'm "running away" or "hiding". We've seen where that leads—to you looking like even more of a dope than usual. If you can't manage to recognize that, that can only make you look dopier.

But thanks for the confirmation that your basic goal here is to attempt to drive other folks off this site. No surprise, but pleasant to see you being so uncharacteristically up-front about something.

About anything, really. I don't expect it'll last, though.

Run away, turn away, David Schlesinger. Cry , boy, cry...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/20/2006 11:26:49 PM # Q
Heh. An entire day and a half to mull things over, completely undistracted¡ªand the actual discussion that went on in your otherwise-unremarked absence was notable¡ªand this is the very best you could manage, eh?

Only the best for you, David.

Well, fine, ´óÕÉ·ò¤Ç¤¹. You've been adequately shown up for the superficial and pretentious waste of space that you are, and it's pretty clear from these exchanges that you can't manage to back up anything you claim.

No David, it's not OK. As usual, your attempts to look clever have blown up in your face. Feel free to butcher another language with your toddler-level language skills.

>>>You lying little biotch.

Oh, pardon me. Astroglide, then.

I would have expected that a personal lubricant connoisseur like you would not have made such an error. Perhaps it's time to again rip you a new one.

In future, don't assume that if I don't waste further time on you that I'm "running away" or "hiding". We've seen where that leads¡ªto you looking like even more of a dope than usual. If you can't manage to recognize that, that can only make you look dopier.

Translation: "David Schlesinger is about to run away bawling like a widdle girlee."

http://www.stereosociety.com/ram/smallt.ram

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/bronski-beat/24704.html

But thanks for the confirmation that your basic goal here is to attempt to drive other folks off this site. No surprise, but pleasant to see you being so uncharacteristically up-front about something.

About anything, really. I don't expect it'll last, though.

Actually, I said no such thing. But thanks for posting yet another lie here, David. (I especially loved that whopper you told about how "the Kyocera 7135, a rather aged Palm OS 4-based phone, has outsold all of the Pocket PC/Windows Mobile/etc. phones made by all of Microsoft's licensees, put together." Did you EVER apologize for telling that gargantuan LIE? Didn't think so.)

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111762

If any of the sleazy trolls I may have mentioned in my previous post left after being julienned by my rapier-sharp posts here, then I probably deserve a medal. It has never been my intent to run off the trolls, but I will gladly continue to debunk the B.S. continually being spewed out here by the likes of you, Jeff Kirvin, Marty Fouts and the late Michael Mace.

I.M.

Ronin


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Wishing Doesn't Make It So...
stonemirror @ 1/21/2006 10:07:04 AM # Q
Only the best for you, David.

How sad for you that his is your "best".

Feel free to butcher another language with your toddler-level language skills.

Well, at least I can. For your part, you probably will want to stick to butchering English, "hypocrate".

Perhaps it's time to again rip you a new one.

Assuming this isn't some sidelong reference to making yourself look like a chump, anyone looking at all this would have assumed that this is what you've been vainly attempting to do for the past several days, entirely to your own detriment.

No doubt your future efforts will be every bit as efficacious. That's fine: you'll always be good for a snicker, at least. I'm afraid the only thing that's proven to be "rapier-sharp" about you is the top of your cranium, and the only thing you actually "debunk" is whatever shreds and tatters of your own minimal credibility you haven't already done away with elsewhere.

Mais peut-être tu peut demontrer comment tu démande de la sushi en japonais, et laquelle doigt tu utilise pour cela...

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
rcartwright @ 1/21/2006 11:31:33 AM # Q
VoR said:

"Keep it up, Geeko. Now that Mike Cane has passed away there's a position available here at Palminfocenter for village idiot. Looks like you might be overqualified."

Boy the wifi on the Nokia 770 must be really something if Mike Cane is still able to post on Internet Table Talk from the grave, which I just read. You know, just because people don't want to waste time in trash talking does not make them dead. While I am no great fan of Mike Cane, you ought to get your facts in order.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

"White Noise" and Nokia 770s
stonemirror @ 1/21/2006 2:02:14 PM # Q
I can confirm that the Nokia 770, for all of its numerous other failings, has awesome WiFi reception. I can pick up the access point over at my neighbor's house.

This is not a comment on Mike Cane's being on any particular side of the grave.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or else!)
(Who also suspects the character in American Werewolf is right when he says, "Dead people are boring.")

Conjuring up Mike Cane
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/21/2006 4:19:43 PM # Q
Boy the wifi on the Nokia 770 must be really something if Mike Cane is still able to post on Internet Table Talk from the grave, which I just read. You know, just because people don't want to waste time in trash talking does not make them dead. While I am no great fan of Mike Cane, you ought to get your facts in order.

I assume you haven't noticed that those apparent posts from Caney are somewhat... disembodied.

His zombie-style (living dead) posts to Palminfocenter will greatly be missed - by no none.

Alas, poor Cane. I knew him well.


I.M.

Ronin


Cross over children. All are welcome. All welcome. Go into..
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/21/2006 5:04:39 PM # Q






"This house is clean."

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: PalmSource Shill Attempting To Steal The Neighbor's WiFi
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/21/2006 5:27:09 PM # Q
I can confirm that the Nokia 770, for all of its numerous other failings,

And they are quite numerous, indeed. A tablet device with almost non-existent text entry abilities? 90 minute battery life? Buggy apps? Well done, Nokia! If it wasn't for the decent screen, the 770 would deserve the same fate as the Nokia NGage (i.e. a fate worse than death).


has awesome WiFi reception.

By "awesome" I assume you mean "totally tubular". Or in English, "adequate".

I can pick up the access point over at my neighbor's house.

Petty theft, David? Are you using this access point without your neighbor's knowledge? How gauche - yet completely predictable. WWDD? (What Would Dianne Do?)

This is not a comment on Mike Cane's being on any particular side of the grave.

Or on any particular side of the tracks, God bless his soul.


I.M.

Ronin


RE: Thelemite Shill Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/21/2006 6:01:45 PM # Q
Mais peut-être tu peut demontrer comment tu démande de la sushi en japonais, et laquelle doigt tu utilise pour cela...


Pour vous, le troisième doigt, naturellement.

The tempura here is to die for - excuse me as I order some more...

Take care of Dianne for me. I'm afraid The Hunger has set upon her again.


I.M.

Ronin



Something wimpy this way comes.

P.S. W T F is up with your obeseeion with this Lunktard minion?

RE: Microsoft Shills Attempting To Obscure The Obvious
PenguinPowered @ 1/22/2006 2:49:30 AM # Q
Take care of Dianne for me.

Oh, Skippy, you have no idea how hard that comment made me laugh.

Or how dumb it makes you look.

HAND


May You Live in Interesting Times

Mouthy Dopes Futilely Attempting to Be Clever
stonemirror @ 1/22/2006 11:04:57 AM # Q
The Mouth that Bored squeaks, Are you using this access point without your neighbor's knowledge?

I said I could see it. Are you imagining that I ran out abnd got a Nokia 770 so that I could finally access the Int4rW3B from home...?

Y' know, you suffer from a common behavior in small-minded and unimaginative people: they assume that everyone else is as petty, dishonest and ignorant as they are.

No, nor does everyone immediately turns to petty theft when reduced to the sort of penurious circumstances that you evidently labor under. Everyone with whom you interact is not a thief simply because you happen to be one.

Some of us actually worked extensively on WiFi/"AirPort" support at Apple in the early-ish days, and have had WiFi in our homes for the best part of a decade, not to mention a nice box full of free base stations and AirPort cards (given to me, not taken by me, just to forestall that idiot accusation on your part).

But if you're concerned, call the cops and report me, by all means. Write your Congressman while you're at it.

Marty observes Or how dumb it makes you look.

Mm. Even in comparison to how dopey it's been made to look already.

And that's sayin' somethin'.

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (at the Expense of the Increasingly Desperate)

David's tale: "full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/22/2006 1:43:53 PM # Q
The Mouth that Bored squeaks, Are you using this access point without your neighbor's knowledge?

I said I could see it. Are you imagining that I ran out abnd got a Nokia 770 so that I could finally access the Int4rW3B from home...?

Y' know, you suffer from a common behavior in small-minded and unimaginative people: they assume that everyone else is as petty, dishonest and ignorant as they are.

No, nor does everyone immediately turns to petty theft when reduced to the sort of penurious circumstances that you evidently labor under. Everyone with whom you interact is not a thief simply because you happen to be one.

Some of us actually worked extensively on WiFi/"AirPort" support at Apple in the early-ish days, and have had WiFi in our homes for the best part of a decade, not to mention a nice box full of free base stations and AirPort cards (given to me, not taken by me, just to forestall that idiot accusation on your part).

But if you're concerned, call the cops and report me, by all means. Write your Congressman while you're at it.

Marty observes Or how dumb it makes you look.

Mm. Even in comparison to how dopey it's been made to look already.

And that's sayin' somethin'.

Wow. That was quite a lot of bluster there, Mr. Schlesinger. Do all PalmSource managers splutter like that when someone makes them look foolish or is it just you?


You have told us:

"...a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Yet in all your bluster and fevered ranting about your previous experience with Wi-Fi, you've somehow failed to answer a VERY simple question: "Are you using this access point without your neighbor's knowledge?" YES or NO, David?

I.M.

Ronin

P.S. In the future, please address me as TVoR rather than using one of the silly insults you now resort to in your (increasingly impotent) ad hominem attacks on me. Thank you. Take care, David.


"What's he to Hecubah, or Hecubah to him///
stonemirror @ 1/22/2006 5:48:06 PM # Q
...you've somehow failed to answer a VERY simple question...

Who wants to know, hm?

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or else!)

PS
stonemirror @ 1/22/2006 5:54:11 PM # Q
You seem to lack the means by which to enforce your will in this matter, Mouth. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

恐ろしき大鏡石

News Flash! Pot calls Kettle Black ! Pictures at....
rcartwright @ 1/22/2006 6:18:54 PM # Q
P.S. In the future, please address me as TVoR rather than using one of the silly insults you now resort to in your (increasingly impotent) ad hominem attacks on me. Thank you. Take care, David.



"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

News Flash! Pot calls Kettle Black ! Pictures at....
rcartwright @ 1/22/2006 6:18:54 PM # Q
P.S. In the future, please address me as TVoR rather than using one of the silly insults you now resort to in your (increasingly impotent) ad hominem attacks on me. Thank you. Take care, David.



"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

Sorry for Duplicate Post
rcartwright @ 1/22/2006 6:21:45 PM # Q
re+ extra post-one one of our cats thought the umbrage taken by Vor for the perceived "ad hominem" attacks aganist his person was so hilarious she hit the "send" key again

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
That which we call a Hecuba By any other word would smell as
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/23/2006 4:15:20 AM # Q













sweet.



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.

sr4 @ 9/10/2005 12:10:52 PM # Q
Attaining Commercial Viability
With Linux gaining acceptance among handset manufacturers and mobile operators, another crucial and missing component of the mobile OS ecosystem – one that Linux, with its heritage as a server OS, doesn’t naturally address – is now ready for consideration: the user interface.

The logical technology to fill this void in Linux for mobile is browser software. Sitting atop Linux, a browser can fulfill a
much broader role than Web surfing alone. Advanced mobile browsers, such as ACCESS’ NetFront browser, can assume a complete range of UI functions on the phone, including file management, folder access, document viewing, multimedia playback, and more. With a browser serving as the framework,
applications are accessed directly from a UI written in a markup language such as HTML. Using traditional Web development
techniques, a rich, powerful, and customized UI can be quickly created, and applications can be accessed through the browser by using an API constructed in ECMAScript. NetFront can also provide Linux-enabled handsets with a flexible framework for
over-the-air updates of both software and content. A browser’s primary function is to support connectivity over the network to
bring the user content. With NetFront, this functionality is upgraded so that, in addition to pulling content, information can be pushed, enabling a remarkable degree of dynamic customization. In the case of a handset menu UI written in a markup language, as described above, the very core menu of the handset can be updated dynamically. New applications can be given a prominent placement in an updated root menu or rotated depending on the programs that a mobile operator may want to promote. In addition, plug-ins for new media types can be downloaded through the browser and updated applications or operating system components can be pushed to the end-user’s
device to correct bugs or system limitations. On the content side, up-to-date information such as news headlines, financial information, or sports scores can be pushed to the user through the browser. When the browser is the root menu for the device, pushed data is displayed where it is most useful to the end user.

Finally, mobile browsers like NetFront offer the advantage of ease-of-use for end users of Linux-enabled handsets. As a longtime partner of NTT DoCoMo and supplier of its mobile browser software, ACCESS has had ample time to refine and improve NetFront technology through multiple generations
of software releases. These refinements allow ACCESS to provide the Linux market with an advanced and proven UI solution.
ACCESS has been actively supporting Linux initiatives for several years, including supplying NetFront for the popular
Sharp Zaurus PDA introduced in Japan in 2002. And ACESSS is currently offering the Linux-compatible NetFront browser
with its companion Mobile Client Suite – a complete, resource-efficient, turnkey Linux handset solution – to device manufacturers.

ACCESS is also a member of the CE Linux Forum, and has developed Linux clients for heavyweights including Matsu****a (media player) and MontaVista (OMAP Innovator).


http://www.access-us-inc.com/pdf/access_in_news/LinuxWorld_09_04.pdf

Its basically that old chestnut of tuning the OS into a collection of device drivers (to which Linux is perfectly suited) with the browser doing all the UI heavy lifting. I wonder where POS comes in though. Providing the windowing environment?

Surur


RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
PenguinPowered @ 9/10/2005 9:18:11 PM # Q
That article appears to be a year old. I wonder if Access' thinking has changed in that year.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department
RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
sr4 @ 9/11/2005 4:16:39 AM # Q
Considering how long it takes to do a deal like this (due diligence etc) I would think that this deal is a culmination of their thinking, and would not have changed.

Surur

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
PenguinPowered @ 9/11/2005 2:08:45 PM # Q
Well, if you're willing to assume they did their due dilligence, then you should also be willing to assume that they know what PSRC's contributions are and that they plan to take advantage of PSRC's skill set.

We'll just have to wait and see what they think that is.

Marty Fouts
Lead Linux Lizard
PalmSource Core Technology Department

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
Sam H @ 9/11/2005 7:25:32 PM # Q
Interesting read, thanks.
So NOW we know why Access bought PalmSource: NetFrontLinux!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 7:58:32 PM # Q
Attaining Commercial Viability

With Linux gaining acceptance among handset manufacturers and mobile operators, another crucial and missing component of the mobile OS ecosystem – one that Linux, with its heritage as a server OS, doesn’t naturally address – is now ready for consideration: the user interface.

The logical technology to fill this void in Linux for mobile is browser software. Sitting atop Linux, a browser can fulfill a
much broader role than Web surfing alone. Advanced mobile browsers, such as ACCESS’ NetFront browser, can assume a complete range of UI functions on the phone, including file management, folder access, document viewing, multimedia playback, and more. With a browser serving as the framework,
applications are accessed directly from a UI written in a markup language such as HTML. Using traditional Web development
techniques, a rich, powerful, and customized UI can be quickly created, and applications can be accessed through the browser by using an API constructed in ECMAScript. NetFront can also provide Linux-enabled handsets with a flexible framework for
over-the-air updates of both software and content. A browser’s primary function is to support connectivity over the network to
bring the user content. With NetFront, this functionality is upgraded so that, in addition to pulling content, information can be pushed, enabling a remarkable degree of dynamic customization. In the case of a handset menu UI written in a markup language, as described above, the very core menu of the handset can be updated dynamically. New applications can be given a prominent placement in an updated root menu or rotated depending on the programs that a mobile operator may want to promote. In addition, plug-ins for new media types can be downloaded through the browser and updated applications or operating system components can be pushed to the end-user’s
device to correct bugs or system limitations. On the content side, up-to-date information such as news headlines, financial information, or sports scores can be pushed to the user through the browser. When the browser is the root menu for the device, pushed data is displayed where it is most useful to the end user.

Finally, mobile browsers like NetFront offer the advantage of ease-of-use for end users of Linux-enabled handsets. As a longtime partner of NTT DoCoMo and supplier of its mobile browser software, ACCESS has had ample time to refine and improve NetFront technology through multiple generations
of software releases. These refinements allow ACCESS to provide the Linux market with an advanced and proven UI solution.
ACCESS has been actively supporting Linux initiatives for several years, including supplying NetFront for the popular
Sharp Zaurus PDA introduced in Japan in 2002. And ACESSS is currently offering the Linux-compatible NetFront browser
with its companion Mobile Client Suite – a complete, resource-efficient, turnkey Linux handset solution – to device manufacturers.

ACCESS is also a member of the CE Linux Forum, and has developed Linux clients for heavyweights including Matsu****a (media player) and MontaVista (OMAP Innovator).


http://www.access-us-inc.com/pdf/access_in_news/LinuxWorld_09_04.pdf

Its basically that old chestnut of tuning the OS into a collection of device drivers (to which Linux is perfectly suited) with the browser doing all the UI heavy lifting. I wonder where POS comes in though. Providing the windowing environment?

Surur

Excellent catch, Surur.

So NetFrontLinux (NFL) will become a new cellphone platform competing with Symbian, Windows Mobile, etc... Wow. That's bold. Nokia should have bought PalmSource just to put them out of business! Mircosoft obviously passed on PalmSource because of its fear of getting sodomized again by the DoJ for "anticompetitive" practices. But Palm on the other hand has no excuse for letting PalmOS slip from their grasp. If Palm seriously feels they have a chance to make it long term as just a handset supplier with no control over PalmOS, they're in for a rude awakening.


OK, so Access purchases PalmSource to get PalmLinux code as a foundation for a NetFront browser UI-based cellphone OS. But if that's the case, then Access may feel there's no urgency in delivering PalmLinux for PDAs and smartphones any time soon. Access is probably more interested in locking up a chunk of the "feature phone" (i.e. "regular" cellphone) market than they are in becoming a supplier of OSes to Treo 600-style high end smartphones or traditional PDAs. The REAL profits will come from being a player in the low end, so PalmSource's current licensees may end up getting fcuked now that Access is calling the shots with PalmOS development. Palm's failure to purchase PalmSource may have just sealed the platform's fate. PalmOS as a PDA + smartphone OS in 2007 may no longer exist. I seriously wonder whether Access will be willing to support development of both PalmLinux and NetFrontLinux for long... PalmLinux either will get canned or else NetFront will take over from Rome as the new PalmLinux UI.

This is NOT good. TVoR is NOT a happy camper right now...


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/11/2005 9:33:47 PM # Q
Considering how long it takes to do a deal like this (due diligence etc) I would think that this deal is a culmination of their thinking, and would not have changed.

Surur

Surur, you really are one bada$$. Thanks for clearing up something that made NO SENSE until now.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

How PalmSource is REALLY doing: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8026#110958

Ryan, can you make this a front page article?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 12:37:15 AM # Q
This NetFront-as-platform manifesto is probably the future of PalmOS revealed. Do you think it deserves front page exposure?

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 1:07:54 AM # Q
The Voice if Ignorance wrote:
This NetFront-as-platform manifesto is probably the future of PalmOS revealed. Do you think it deserves front page exposure?

So let me get this straight: You find something from a year ago on the Access web site that says that mobile applications can be written for a browser with Javascript. Access makes browsers that could (with some work) do this right now as a way to put some simple applications on cheapy feature phones. But the Palm applications do not run in browsers and are written against a C language API, not Javascript. So the reason for Access to have acquired the Palm OS would be... what now?

1. To make developers happy by giving them lots of stuff to do over the next year or two converting all their applications into glorified web apps.

2. To make PIC trolls happy by throwing out every shred of work that has been done on Palm OS Cobalt and starting fresh with a new browser-based UI and application stack.

3. To drive the price of their stock down so that Palm can acquire both Access *and* PalmSource, which will cause Access stock to go back up, causing TVoR to declare the chairman of Access to be a "genius."

Tell me you're not this stupid, TVoR. You can't pretend to understand anything about the Palm OS if you're going to come out with stuff like this.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
*NEW* Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 2:16:15 AM # Q
You can't pretend to understand anything about the Palm OS if you're going to come out with stuff like this.

In all fairness, he ran out of even infinitesimally plausible conspiracy fantasies a good while back...

Because you're an idiot, Dad...
—Wynona Ryder as "Veronica Sawyer" in Heathers

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

Conspiracy theorist at PSRC
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 2:52:26 AM # Q
You would know all about conspiracies, wouldn't you.

http://www.stonemirror.net/Pages/Conspiranoia/illuminati.html

Surur

Yes, Beersy. Ryan should do a front page article on this.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 3:04:26 AM # Q
The NetFront browser-as-UI paradigm would be a pretty bold step. Windows already can be set up like that and Google's plug-ins show what can be done when one takes a step back and creatively thinks about UI issues.

With new PalmOS apps being written to the Protein APIs, with robust multitasking being built into PalmLinux, with even the most casual of users now being comfortable with a browser interface, and with an always-on wireless connection likely being the centerpoint of all future mobile devices, having apps plug in to a browser-style "launcher" definitely seems both understandable and doable. Not necessarily my cup of tea, but I doubt PalmSource's UI Kiddies wouldn't have too much switching ideas from Rome to a browser paradigm.

NetFrontLinux would seem to be a pretty realistic synergy between Access' and PalmSource's respective IP, in my opinion. Too bad Surur let the cat out of the bag so quickly! Of course, if you happen to have a better explanation for why a Japanese mobile browser company would pay over $300 million for a struggling American mobile OS company, please enlighten us all, Beersy. Otherwise, please S T F U and keep you puerile insults to yourself. Thank you.



TVoR, Inc.

"The [codemonkey] doth protest too much, methinks"


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Surur, you're on a roll...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 4:07:15 AM # Q
You would know all about conspiracies, wouldn't you.

http://www.stonemirror.net/Pages/Conspiranoia/illuminati.html

Surur


He's into magick! Oooooooo! Dat's so cuuuuuuuuuuute

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 9:03:23 AM # Q
The NetFront browser-as-UI paradigm would be a pretty bold step.

Indeed. For Access to end backward compatibility of all Palm applications, dispense with 100% of the API and replace it with a new one written in a *scripting language*, retraining all PalmSource's C/C++ developers in ECMAScript, then jettisoning at least 80% of the system code that has been written over the years: bold is the perfect word. Bolder even than Access taking their $324M and putting it straight into a dumpster. Who could have expected a plan so fiendishly bold?

Windows already can be set up like that and Google's plug-ins show what can be done when one takes a step back and creatively thinks about UI issues.

No wait... I've got it! The new Access OS can be the Palm OS Simulator ported to Java running as an applet inside the browser!

No. Try as I may, I can't come up with something more stupid than Access buying the Palm OS for the right to throw it out and create a browser-based system that they could have created better without PalmSource's help.

But hey, that's just me. Don't let me stop you from pursuing this idea, big guy.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 9:33:10 AM # Q
Dianne Hackborn has given by far the best explanation we've heard yet as to why Access would buy PalmSource. Paraphrasing and fleshing out a point or two:

1. Access' traditional browser market has become commoditized, so they have all these great contacts with phone makers (particularly in Asia) but can't make any money off them, despite huge volume.

2. Meanwhile, the complexity of building a 3G phone is spelling the end of "roll your own RTOS" system (just as it's spelling the end of Palm OS Garnet) and phone vendors are looking for a platform that is (a) complete, but (b) open source (at least at the kernel level that gives them their hardware options).

3. OK, so you are Access. If the market is going toward complete, integrated platforms that already have a browser integrated and you have a browser that you want to keep selling you'd better get that browser rolled into a complete, integrated platform. And if you think the survival of your business is going to depend on that strategy in the future you'd better not depend on shaky deals with some OS maker to make this happen. The fact that you can buy PalmSource for less than half of what it was selling for a couple of years ago and that they are building on Linux, which is just what the market wants (especially in Asia) makes the choice easy.

I'd also add that there are some neat things you could do with a browser that is tightly integrated with the OS. Dirt simple software installations over the air, for one. Maybe a slick system for OTA synchronization that would be usable by 3rd party apps. Ability to do stuff like select text and create a memo, appointment, todo, or contact with it without having to leave the browser. Or send it as an instant message. Or with a text to speech engine turn it into a voice message or voice reminder. And of course, pedestrian stuff that still is often lacking on handhelds like having the browser integrated with a similarly integrated email client would be very good. You don't necessarily *have* to own the OS and its developers to do this, but it probably helps.

It's pretty exciting when you stop to think about it. If you're into that kind of thing. Thinking, I mean. ;)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 10:45:34 AM # Q
You would know all about conspiracies, wouldn't you.

Yes, it's a hobby of mine. I also (unlike some) know when to end a sentence with a question mark, the difference between "single" and "multiple", not to mention being able to unerringly distinguish between "one" and "five or six".

Some would call it "hair-splitting," but I disagree.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 10:54:35 AM # Q
David, you are letting your biase limit your imagination. What is a modern browser if not a layout engine, and the better your browser the better you lay-out can be. 3G is all about data in the end, and either a) making people use that data, thereby racking up charges or b) making the data service valuable to them, thereby inducing people to pay the higher flat fee. The essential service is therefore internet access, and therefore the "browser".

Remember, this turn key solution is not meant to be sold to businessmen, but to Japanese teenagers who want a smart feature phone (as most japanese phones are these days). There is no reason why a full screen browser can not be the launcher for EXTRA software, such as a calculator or camera app, while the main iterface would be littered with links in dynamic menus to keep you online e.g. "today's news" and "sports and weather" etc.

To run the extra software e.g. camera app etc would require an OS, but thats a secondary concern versus the actual browser interface which Access claims will simplify and make Linux ACESSible.

In short, their plan may work, but I still do not see how it would make them more competitive (in the OS space) than anyone else, except in their own niche. Its a financial gamble in the end, and I do not see Palm developers sticking around for the ride. Also, how many Palm developers speak japanese to serve this burgeoning smartphone market in Japan/China?

Surur

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 11:13:59 AM # Q
Also, David, do you seriously think that Access would release a product without their crown jewel (the browser, not POS) front and centre stage?

Stonemirror:
You continue to play dumb. You know full well there is only one Application process, and when that app is sent to the background that process is completely cleaned, with only a possible thread in the background process. Thats not my version of traditional multi-tasking, where the process does not even know if its in the foreground or not.

e.g. with a simple mortgage calculator, if I entered some numbers, and wanto to go the the interet to look up the current mortgage rate, just like in POS 5 that process will be killed, and unless the programmer saved th state or passed it on to a background thread I would have to re-enter that information all over again when I return from the browser. So why complicate stuff so much for a simplle mortgage calculation app?

The simple fact is that you are too obsessed with this "resource constrained embedded device" that you have forgotten ease of development, and that once again you are pretending to multi-task, but are still very far from what people expect when they sit down in front of their XP computer. The difference is that on this occasion you had a chance to start over from scratch, and with a blank slate you still ended up doing just a little better than OS 5.

Now, in another thread Marty said POL is just Cobalt on Linux, but you have denied this. So whats the truth - can you have multiple active user application processes (like 10-20) in POL, or is it just Cobalt warmed over again?

Surur

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 11:21:44 AM # Q
Also, how many Palm developers speak japanese to serve this burgeoning smartphone market in Japan/China?

Why, we all do. Don't you?

Omoshiroi, ne?

Love,

Ôsoroshikidai Hidarikiki
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 11:30:24 AM # Q
You continue to play dumb.

Well, at least I'm playing.

Nobody's as stupid as I look.
—Michael Moriarty as "David 'Mo' Rutherford" in The Stuff

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

Too dumb (or smart) to answer?
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 11:47:55 AM # Q
Wow! Great way of avoiding the question.

Surur

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
stonemirror @ 9/12/2005 11:57:58 AM # Q
One might almost think it was some sort of conspiracy.

Love,

Lefty (the Great and Terrible)
Minister of Fun (or Else!), PalmSource Core Technologies

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 12:06:02 PM # Q
Now thats a leap, but I'm sure its one you make easily and often.

Surur

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 2:18:47 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
David, you are letting your biase limit your imagination.

Not at all. I understand the thin client on Linux model--it's all the buzz now (again) and hardly something that requires imagination. My point was that owning PalmSource contributes precisely zero to realizing a thin-client UI: no code, no expertise, no applications, and no developer community. Call me crazy, but I don't believe Access would exchange $324M for zero.

Also, David, do you seriously think that Access would release a product without their crown jewel (the browser, not POS) front and centre stage?

Are you talking to me? I thought what I said was that Access bought PalmSource so their browser *would* be front and center stage, integrated into a complete platform. Fewer phonemakers will be cobbling together their own software in the future and more will be buying into platforms, so the way to sell a piece of software like a browser now is to make it part of a platform. Yes, you're going to want to add features like the ones I listed that enable the browser to work *together* with the built-in apps, but the idea that you'd replace the entire application stack with browser apps is so ludicrous that I can hardly believe we're even talking about it. Writing these browser applications would be as different from writing a Palm app as making applesauce is from manufacturing spark plugs. You wouldn't just be jettisoning most of the system and all of the expertise that PalmSource offers, you'd be jettisoning the entire community of 400k developers that Access says attracted them to Palm OS.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Access Active Desktop - the future of POS
sr4 @ 9/12/2005 2:37:00 PM # Q

Have you heard of the (failed) Active Desktop? I think this is what Access wants to do. Simple concept, and it does not sound that difficult to implement.

I think they will be replacing the launcher, and making it a lot more functional (like the today screen on PocketPC's) and make the (traditional POS) apps secondary to the main functionality on the "home page". They will still work, but wont be the focus anymore.

Surur

Beersy, are you really slow or just playing dumb?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 2:52:17 PM # Q
>>>The NetFront browser-as-UI paradigm would be a pretty bold step.

Indeed. For Access to end backward compatibility of all Palm applications, dispense with 100% of the API and replace it with a new one written in a *scripting language*, retraining all PalmSource's C/C++ developers in ECMAScript, then jettisoning at least 80% of the system code that has been written over the years: bold is the perfect word. Bolder even than Access taking their $324M and putting it straight into a dumpster. Who could have expected a plan so fiendishly bold?

I hope - for your sake - you're just playing dumb, Beersy. It's actually all quite simple: imagine the BROWSER interface as app launcher + file manager, with a pop-up/drop-down list of ALL apps; customisable links (e.g. icons on a DIA) to frequently used apps (both Protein or 68K), email program, contacts, schedule, websites, folders, etc. With an always-on connection, all sources of info are really just DATA - no matter where they're stored (RAM, expansion card, internet, remote hard drives). The browser interface can facilitate accessing this data seamlessly. Imagine being able to browse your home computer, Wi-Fi connected computers, RAM and expansion cards all from the same interface on a mobile device. Yes, you can do this now with a Treo, but everything is a kludge that needs separate software to be installed by a fairly sophisticated user. The Browser UI can potentially bring all the benefits of connectivity home to the average Joe/Jane. THINK about it, Beersy. It's really not a difficult concept. There would be no app compatibility issues, but obviously legacy (68K) apps could not multitask. With multitasking, different apps could appear either as tabs within the browser or icons on a DIA or "sites" choosable from a "history" drop down list or even simpler: through "forward" and "back" buttons. The browser interface presents as if it was in RAM. Very slick.

If you own a CLIE, download AppShelf to get a feel for what I'm talking about.

http://www.jade.dti.ne.jp/~imazeki/palm/APsh/index-e.html


Once you think about it Browser-as-UI is actually perfectly suited for next-generation mobile always-connected devices.

Windows already can be set up like that and Google's plug-ins show what can be done when one takes a step back and creatively thinks about UI issues.

No wait... I've got it! The new Access OS can be the Palm OS Simulator ported to Java running as an applet inside the browser!

No. Try as I may, I can't come up with something more stupid than Access buying the Palm OS for the right to throw it out and create a browser-based system that they could have created better without PalmSource's help.

But hey, that's just me. Don't let me stop you from pursuing this idea, big guy.


;-O

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
cervezas @ 9/12/2005 4:04:29 PM # Q
TVor, now you've gone from "bold concept" (a system with a browser-based UI) to a total yawner concept that has been on mobile phones for years (use the browser as an application launcher). Why would this be some kind of news? And why don't you read my posts where I suggest much more imaginative things they could do with the browser than as a glorified launcher:

I'd also add that there are some neat things you could do with a browser that is tightly integrated with the OS. Dirt simple software installations over the air, for one. Maybe a slick system for OTA synchronization that would be usable by 3rd party apps. Ability to do stuff like select text and create a memo, appointment, todo, or contact with it without having to leave the browser. Or send it as an instant message. Or with a text to speech engine turn it into a voice message or voice reminder. And of course, pedestrian stuff that still is often lacking on handhelds like having the browser integrated with a similarly integrated email client would be very good. You don't necessarily *have* to own the OS and its developers to do this, but it probably helps.

And why would I even expect that you would suddenly start reading and comprehending anything that the little man in your head didn't tell you?

Someday I'll learn.

Anyway, for the rest of you: move along... nothing to see here.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/12/2005 4:08:24 PM # Q
Windows already can be set up like that and Google's plug-ins show what can be done when one takes a step back and creatively thinks about UI issues.

No wait... I've got it! The new Access OS can be the Palm OS Simulator ported to Java running as an applet inside the browser!

No. Try as I may, I can't come up with something more stupid than Access buying the Palm OS for the right to throw it out and create a browser-based system that they could have created better without PalmSource's help.

But hey, that's just me. Don't let me stop you from pursuing this idea, big guy.

I guess my response to you was edited out, Beersy. Grow up.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access's vision for Linux on a mobile phone.
Dr Opinion @ 9/12/2005 7:42:53 PM # Q
The wince gang spread FUD claiming that ACCESS bought PIC with the intent of making major changes to the future of the Palm OS.

The premium paid for PalmSource clearly demonstrates the opposite: ACCESS expects the Palm economy to generate *oodles* of revenue moving forwards, which requires lots of happy developers in and outside the company, and lots of happy Palm OS end users.

And this is great news for everyone involved in the palm economy. :)

Of course, once the Palm OS can run most Palm apps and many Linux apps, the pressure on m$ to dump wince completely and move to "XP Mobile" will be overwhelming. The most expensive wince devices already have higher specs than the cheapest "XP embedded" devices... the death knell for wince is already ringing... :)


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

He's a Magick Man...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 9/17/2005 12:47:25 PM # Q
You would know all about conspiracies, wouldn't you.

http://www.stonemirror.net/Pages/Conspiranoia/illuminati.html

Surur

"You don’t have to love me yet
Let’s get high awhile
But try to understand
Try to understand
Try try try to understand
I’m a magick man."


http://www.mp3.com/tracks/317025/dl_streams.html

Mr. Crowley would have bee sooooooooooooooo proud of you, David.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Interesting commentary

twrock @ 10/15/2005 10:52:52 AM # Q
So the guys over at the register are still predicting the reunion of Palm and the Palm OS.

In Motorola vs Palmsource, who catches the OS?

"... With a much publicized Windows product just announced, it's a delicate time for Palm to announce its intentions to get PalmOS back under the roof.

But it wants to, it has little to lose with the PalmOS OEM business drying up, and has much to gain from making a bid for the OS. Sooner or later, we reckon the much-traveled OS will be back at home."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/14/motorola_palmsource/

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Interesting commentary
craigdts @ 10/15/2005 11:07:22 AM # Q
I think that means they will just buy the Palm OS from ACCESS, not buy the company. That makes sense, and many of us expect that from Palm. I would like to see Palm buy the Palm OS (Garnet) from Palmsource/Access. I would be very disappointed if Palm wasted money buying the entire company; that would be foolish.

RE: Interesting commentary
craigdts @ 10/15/2005 11:15:49 AM # Q
The more I think of it the better this sounds. Palm could buy the Palm OS, it's PIM apps most importantly and then begin it's own linux palm development. This would make sense then why ACCESS would pay $324 million for Palmsource if they knew palm would pay somewhere around $100 million for Garnet. That would be a good use of Palms over $400 million in cash. That $ would allow Access to hit the ground running to get some kind of linux (browser os?) to China.

Access as hostage-taker? Hmmmm...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/15/2005 4:16:16 PM # Q
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8033#111694

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8033#111693

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111669


The price seems ridiculous, but perhaps not in a few possible scenarios:

1) Access-as-the-New-Palm theory: Access becomes a more intelligent Palm: contracts with HTC, etc and becomes a one-stop supplier of phones to carriers. Nice way to segue out of the browser business now that the power of future hardware will soon allow open source browsers to run acceptably, "Netscaping" Access' NetFront browser.

Fly in the ointment: Palm's renegotiated contract with PalmSource allows them to keep their clutches on PalmOS for 5 more years. For the "one-stop supplier" idea to be effective a company needs (Apple-style) COMPLETE control over both OS and hardware.

2) Access-as-puppet theory: Access acquires PalmSource + runs it into the ground for the benefit of a shadowy Redmond-colored figure lurking in the background.

3) Access-as-a-better-Symbian theory: Great OS + huge app library + good developer community + fair developer tools; without overbearing spectre of Nokia trying to run the show = instant mobile platform IF packaged with ALL the ingredients (as I've previously suggested that PalmSource have rolled into PalmOS). It wouldn't take a lot of effort to make PalmOS into a killer mobile platform. PalmSource was too clueless to see this. A better-run company might have better luck.

4) Access-as-hostagetaker: I wonder if Palm would be willing to reconsider how badly it needs PalmOS and pay Access an extra premium to regain control of PalmOS now that Access has abducted it while Palm was sleeping?


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment
Start a New Comment Thread Top