Comments on: PalmSource ACCESS Deal Gets Antitrust Clearance
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RE: $324 Million Blown
ACCESS itself has about $90,000,000 (from its and the Tokyo Stock Exchange web pages).
Where's the rest coming from?
Will "THEY" want to go through with this now?
Whatta game!
RE: $324 Million Blown
Where's the rest coming from?
Never heard of a leveraged buyout?
But I think I may know where a chunk of that change may have come from. Chuckle...
A certain company that couldn't afford the market price for PalmSource but had a lot to gain from tipping the advantage to the bidder who wasn't a direct competitor.
Gotta wonder.
Which brings up an interesting question: if Palm has more or less given up on Palm OS (particularly Palm Linux) as some here contend, why were they bidding $260M+ to try to acquire PalmSource? They shouldn't have had much use for them, it seems to me. They didn't need it for Palm Linux if Gekko's interpretation of the recent press conference is correct. Surely they had no interest in Cobalt, which everyone here seems to agree is a piece of s*** even though they've never seen it. And they shouldn't have cared if "Company A" bought their damaged goods if they now see Windows Mobile is the one and only wave of the smartphone future. So that leaves Garnet. Do you really think they'd have offered that kind of money just to be sure they could use Garnet for a couple more years?
If so, they really are stupid.
Your interpretation of Palm's sizable bid?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
Now's your chance to get in! ;)
RE: $324 Million Blown
W.r.t PALM making some sort of extremely HIGH bid - who says!?
Last I read PALM bid - that literally is the extent of our information.
RE: $324 Million Blown
Beersie - they probably did the math and looked at the cost of licensing PalmOS over the next X years and figured they could buy the whole damn company for $YY and even get some additional IP and other misc revenues. But then that idea was not feasible anymore when the bid price for the whole damn company far exceeded the license payments. It's not quite as cloak and dagger as you think. At the end of the day, they told those crazy Japanese - "$324M??? You can have it."
RE: $324 Million Blown
No. Palm is the "Company B" referred to in the 9/23 filing (http://tinyurl.com/bhszc). We know that by process of elimination:
* It obviously wasn't company A if you read the "Background of the Merger" section of that filing. They never dropped out of the bidding as we're told Palm did.
* The only other company in the running after the initial meetings was "Company C", which "determined that it was not prepared to make a proposal to acquire PalmSource" before the bidding even began. So that doesn't fit the description of Palm having actually made a bid.
According to the filing, Company B placed its final bid "in the range of $15.00 to $15.90 per share" on Sept 7. By my calculations that's at least $262M.
The simplest explanation for an investment of kind of money is an amortization of the cost over an extended period of time (i.e. serious interest in Palm OS over the long haul). You might be able to concoct some more exotic explanations, but given the weight of other evidence (the renewal of the license for $65M, the continual statements that they are still committed to Palm OS, and the openings for 17 Linux engineers on their web site) I think the simplest explanation is probably the correct one.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
they probably did the math and looked at the cost of licensing PalmOS over the next X years and figured they could buy the whole damn company for $YY and even get some additional IP and other misc revenues.
"Other misc revenues"... Heh. I love it when you talk through your a**, Gekko.
I'd be interested to see your idea of what the value of X would be to justify YY = $262M
I don't know what Palm's royalty payments to PalmSource are these days and I'm too lay at the moment to look them up, but I'll take a wild guess and say that to even break even X has to be something on the order of 5 years. To translate that span of time into "mobile device years", it was about 5 years ago that Palm announced the Palm IIIc.
You can quibble with the figures if you have better ones, but it doesn't sound to me like Palm is planning to abandon Palm OS any time soon. At least they sure weren't on Sept 7, 2005.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
>"Other misc revenues"... Heh. I love it when you talk through your a**, Gekko.
Beersie - you're killing me. My guess is that PSRC had some small revenues other than licensing the OS - ie related software or developer kits, etc.?
RE: $324 Million Blown
Yeah, small as in "guess how much is in my wallet right now."
They have a $150 developer program that a few dozen people might sign up for. Palm could start their own if they wanted to get that juicy cash cow. I'm sure the DevCon doesn't make them money. All the services they produce are part of agreements to their licensees.
When I asked a PalmSource exec back in April where their revenue sources were he told me 100% came from selling licenses.
That was before they sold their rights to the "Palm" name ;)
You see my point.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
The original N-Gage was dumb, but Nokia didn't get that big making mistakes too often.
RE: $324 Million Blown
Cobalt, in whatever state it was in when they offically dropped development on it in July, is semi-usable and someone's going to ship a device(s) with it soon?
Sorry, I'm fresh out of plausible ideas. But someone must've known SOMETHING, right? Other than the N-Gage and perhaps the stillborn PC monitor line, I've never known Nokia to make a big fumble. Yes, some products like the original 9000 communicator didn't catch on like they hoped but overall they play it safe and have very few outright failures.
RE: $324 Million Blown
If Nokia wasn't just bluffing, what did they know which caused it to made sense for them to bid almost as much as ACCESS for PalmSource?
First of all, we don't know if Nokia was Company A, that's just a supposition. Could have been Motorola, Qualcomm, any of a number of different companies that could fit the description of being "communications technology" companies.
Moto makes sense, actually. They moved away from Symbian two years ago and last year had one of their Windows Mobile phones (the MPX) do poorly in part because it was designed for Window Mobile 5, which was late to release(latter info from Surer). Meanwhile they've been working on several Linux phones division. What they don't have is a great framework (GUI and application frameworks, e.g.) for these Linux phones. Palm OS could be just the ticket they want.
As for Nokia, they are making a pretty important Linux play with their Maemo platform, a Linux distro for their upcoming 770 Internet Tablet. It's possible that they would like to be able to release other Linux devices but not have to give away all the work they do on the GUI and apps as they will for Maemo under is it's open source license. Enter PalmSource (both developers and code).
Either seems fairly plausible, as does the price, if you assume these companies are as optimistic about Linux's future as a smartphone system as they seem to be.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
--
my top 10 palm apps --> http://www.arpx.net/article.php/top_10_palmos_applications
RE: $324 Million Blown
Its undeniable that Access sees some great value in PSRC. Its also not denialble that Palm does not, as well as the other bidders, interested or not interested. Its certainly difficult to exlplain why so much will be paid, even to enthusiasts of the platform. That implies that whatever Access's plan is, its not obvious and rather risky, and that this whole venture is quite speculative.
To put it differently, would you invest in Access on the basis of this large aquisition? If you believe the likelyhood of a pay-off justifying their large investment is good, then they would be a sensible investment. If however you would not invest in them because you feel the PSRC purchase has not improved their situation and likelyhood of future dividends or capital increase, that reflects on your view of the future of POS.
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
I have been so waiting to read someone who puts this point so clearly. I have not been able to express it so well.
RE Seldom.
One of the "catches" in the original deal states that if Access doesn't come up with all that money, they forfeit several million bucks. To me, that means PS already knows the deal is iffy. So, will they have to sure Access the get that earnest money when it all falls through? October.
RE: $324 Million Blown
Moto's lately been flailing around for new revenue sources--see their aborted entries into home theatre gear, flat-panel TVs, wi-fi networking equipment, their on/off efforts with home POTS phones etc.
I'd say that it had to have been primarily been Moto or Nokia with any number of Asian firms in the running as well.
I personally forsee the source code & all IP of FrankenGarnet & the remnants of Cobalt being sold sooner than later by Access in order to raise some $$ and pave the way for PLinux. I still say that Palm might attempt to leap-frog Access and buy up said IP and write their own Garnet/Cobalt/Linux hybrid FrankenOS. After all, Palm is no stranger to crazy-quilt OS development. That'd be a great way to pull the rug out from under Access longt-term and to circumvent paying licensing fees down the road. What remains a question would be their agreement to use POS through '09--maybe that would be negated with the sale of the existing OSes' IP?
RE: $324 Million Blown
Its undeniable that Access sees some great value in PSRC. Its also not denialble that Palm does not, as well as the other bidders, interested or not interested. Its certainly difficult to exlplain why so much will be paid, even to enthusiasts of the platform. That implies that whatever Access's plan is, its not obvious and rather risky, and that this whole venture is quite speculative.
Surer you're completely out to lunch on this one.
You and I may look at our wallets and think a $300M+ deal is rich for PalmSource, but the fact is that three major companies including Palm all made offers over $300M. If no one were even close to the ACCESS offer, that might be cause for raised eyebrows, but with industry leaders like Palm, and Nokia or Motorola agreeing with this valuation isn't it a little silly for a bunch of enthusiasts to say things like "I wouldn't pay that much, would you?"
There's risk in a deal this size, of course, but downside risks were accompanied by upside opportunities that all participants to the bidding clearly recognized, the big one being the opportunity to bring an open turnkey phone platform to Asian phone makers who currently go to great time and expense to avoid licensing Microsoft or Symbian OSes.
The share price ACCESS paid is still well below PSRC's valuation when Cobalt looked poised to be the OS that would bring Palm OS onto next-generation smartphones. Yet Cobalt was saddled with the same proprietary baggage that is hampering WM and Symbian in Asia. Palm Linux is not. Add to this that smartphone adoption has now hit the bend in the hockey-stick growth curve and that there are only two other major players in a market where differentiation is the name of the game.
So what's the big surprise here, guys? I realize it's a bit of a shock when the light of reality impinges on the darkness that you see with your heads in the doom-and-gloom sand, but try to pick yourselves up and get with the program.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
Since Palm's business has been set up around being a licensee and not an OS vendor the purchase by ACCESS is probably as good or better for them than if they had bought PalmSource themselves. In fact, I still think it likely that the $324M that Access offered was made with some financial support or other commitment from Palm, whose primary concern was to keep Palm OS out of the hands of a competitor. If I were Ed Colligan I'd want to be damned sure that ACCESS thought twice before backing out of this acquisition. And if I'd been Toru Arakawa watching the bidding war heat up I'd have been on the horn with Colligan the moment Palm dropped out: "What's it worth to you to keep Palm OS from being owned by Nokia/Motorola, Mr. Colligan?"
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
Its not just me thats surprised, its the whole industry.
It's not the "whole industry." It's just a bunch of analysts, who scarcely know more than you and I. If you want to know what the industry thought it's easy to tell: they were the guys who bid it up to that price.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
From that Form PREM14A 23 Sept filing, 2 companies wanted PSRC, 3 others were approached, 1 was not interested, 1 looked at PSRC and decided it was not worth it, one put in a 1/2 cash, half stock offer at $11/share and was rejected, and the two original suitors were left over.
This means of the 5 companies in the industry PSRC thought were relevant, only the two companies who already had plans for PSRC saw significant worth, and two others did not even put in an offer.
See, its not as clear cut as you think it is.
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
In fact "Company B" went up to $15/share. still 1/2 cash, 1/2 share. I think, unless Palm is a "communication company" (they do have the Treo) I would have to say Palm is company B, who refused to raise their bid. They refused to pay >$126 million, which is barely bigger than their outstanding license fees (41.0 million +$42.5 million + $35 million + $20 million + $10 million = $148.5 million).
Basically Palm thinks PSRC is worth no more than they have paid for it already until 2009.
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
If you don't think an 18-day, multi-round bidding war between three major companies is a recognition within the industry that PalmSource was worth a lot more than its August market cap I don't know what kind of evidence would convince you.
All of us here were suprised. But the size of the offer isn't surprising in hindsight. Not once you know the background of the merger and consider where the smartphone market is today.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
It's taken almost a month but you're starting to catch on! Palm was Company B, yes. But last I checked, a half-stock deal where the cash is $126M also includes stock valued at the same amount. And in this case the cash part of the offer was stated to be in the range of $131-139M cash, not $126M. (Not sure where you got that number.)
So your story is that since Palm was unwilling to pay more than a whopping 50% premium for PalmSource, who it had gone to considerable trouble a few years ago to divest itself of for a position in the hardware market, we can conclude that Palm wasn't very interested; is that what we're to understand?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
Palm was just trying to save themselves some money.
Buying PalmSource would not have saved them any money at that price--not for a long time, at least. They'd have to cover PalmSource's losses for one thing, and those losses would have mounted even faster as soon as the companies reunited. That's because the licensing revenue from the Palm OS would be a fraction for Palm what it would be for a company like ACCESS. This is what people don't seem to get.
ACCESS could bid higher than the rest because it was the only company that wouldn't have been in competition with its OS customers. No one likes to have a competitor as a critical supplier, so had Palm, Symbian, or Motorola bough PalmSource it would have greatly limited the market for Palm Linux. Remember how Motorola dropped Symbian after Nokia got a majority holding?
Palm's bid was not a big for PalmSource so much as a bid against PalmSource going to its competition. That's why Colligan was so happy to endorse the ACCESS buyout after losing the contest. ACCESS is a partner, not a competitor. It may be be even more of a partner with Palm than we know! :)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
If Palm was very interested they sure could not convince their bankers they had a viable plan to recoup the investment. The first $148.5 million was essentially free, as they owed PSRC that already.
And if they did not think their was a viable ROI, who are we to argue. And who knows PSRC and their shenanigans better than Palm?
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
Well, yeah. As I just said (and have been saying since TVoR first started talking about Palm reacquiring PalmSource) it would not have been a good idea since it would likely have squashed the Palm Linux golden egg. It was highly unlikely their bankers would be willing to put up anywhere near as much as ACCESS's bankers. They're the same bankers who negotiated the spin-off, after all, so they understand this risk very well.
Palm made a damn fine run of it all the same. I'm impressed they (and their bankers) came in with anything close to $15/share.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
This was the supposed motivation for the PSRC/PalmOne split, but we know how well that turned out, with >90% of POS licenses being sold by Palm.
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
RE: $324 Million Blown
Yeah, well, I think that says more about the problems with Cobalt than it does about the advisability of the split. If PalmSource had delivered Palm OS for Linux at the beginning of last year instead of Cobalt I suspect we'd have seen the Palm OS on a lot more devices by other licensees.
It also says something about the decline of the handheld market, since in the absence of a multi-tasking smartphone OS like Cobalt the market for Palm OS could no longer support Palm, Sony, Handera, Acer, etc. all competing on a shrinking field.
The decision to split had many bad and good points, but I think in the next few years it will finally start to be seen as the right move. The wild bidding race for PalmSouce is the first hint of that vindication by the market.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
Canalys numbers for PalmOne Q2 2005
http://blogs.zdnet.com/ITFacts/?p=8586
http://blogs.zdnet.com/ITFacts/?p=8569
Palm devices sold Q2 2005
1,057,420
PalmSource Licenses sold Q2 2005
1,157,720
Thats 91.3% of POS sales being to P1 in Q2 2005. Its obvious they make a lot of their revenue a) from the sale of their name and b) from mandatory license fees from companies who are not shipping any devices (e.g. Sony).
This means there is no big current Asian market for PalmOS either.
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
Yet! Have you noticed that ACCESS's largest institutional shareholder is NTT DoCoMo?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
The POS market began declining well before the split, and has accelerated ever since. Linux is not some magic powder that will make everything wonderful. Why has the Zaurus line, which has also been around for many years now, not taken off in any meaningful way. Is POS the only OS that can exploit Linux? If so then Nokia is in for a rude awakening.
Its not just about the underlying OS, its about the support the company gives it, and the clout of the vendor, plus the value add they provide (e.g WMP 10 and PlayforSure in the WM side, or the push e-mail coming) Just providing the OS is not enough.
To put simply, why would a small company chose to make and sell POS devices, and why should a consumer chose to buy such a device. PalmSource and Palm has not adequately answered that question, which is why their market has been shrinking.
Cobalt and even PalmLinux, will not stop the decline of the POS market.
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
1,057,420
PalmSource Licenses sold Q2 2005
1,157,720
It'd be more interesting to see something broader than a single quarter snapshot (anybody have some annual figures?) but the general point is well taken.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
Palm devices sold Q2 2004
1,067,880
PalmSource Licenses sold Q2 2004
1,335,810
80% of POS licenses were sold by Palm then. This has only increased as other licensees fell by the way side (Sony, Tapwave, ?Garmin) Its probably closer to 98% these days.
Surur
RE: $324 Million Blown
Linux is not some magic powder that will make everything wonderful.
Oh now you're just talking crazy. Everyone knows that Linux, when aerosolized into the atmosphere can neutralize global terrorism, improve erectile function and reverse declining Sunday School attendance. What are you, some kind of commie?
Why has the Zaurus line, which has also been around for many years now, not taken off in any meaningful way. Is POS the only OS that can exploit Linux? If so then Nokia is in for a rude awakening.
Good questions. Linux didn't really do a lot for the Zaurus unless you were a Linux geek. In fact, it brought a lot of the problems with desktop Linux over onto the handheld, like being harder to use and not having a lot of good applications written for it.
Where Linux is a powerful proposition is in phones, which can be alternatively much more or much less complex than a PDA. Unlike a lot of operating systems, Linux is very modular, which is why it can power a supercomputer or run as an embedded OS on a computer the size of an RJ-45 ethernet jack (http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html). So it's one of the few options that can scale all the way from cheap feature phones to the most complex 3G smartphones.
The other reason it's very attractive as the core for a phone platform is the openness, which has less to do with it being "free" than it does with giving vendors control over their release dates and hardware choices. These weren't big issues with PDAs but since smartphones take so much longer to bring to market, time-to-market and freedom from vendor lock-in are much more important.
I'm glad you took notice of Nokia's Linux play with Maemo.org and the 770 Internet tablet. Interesting to ask yourself why Nokia, whose Symbian OS dominates 75% of the market and just keeps growing, is bothering with Linux. Maemo isn't a phone platform--yet--but I don't expect it to stay that way for long.
Its not just about the underlying OS, its about the support the company gives it, and the clout of the vendor, plus the value add they provide (e.g WMP 10 and PlayforSure in the WM side, or the push e-mail coming) Just providing the OS is not enough.
Sure, but the "ecosystem" approach of Linux is at least as powerful as Microsoft's monolithic approach when it comes to support. Innovation is faster, bugs are fixed quicker, and support for new hardware comes quicker than with Microsoft. In just a couple of years embedded Linux has come from way behind to a status that is already technically superior to Windows Mobile on several key fronts that make a difference: boot time, memory footprint, and support for open standards.
What mobile Linux lacks to date is a champion analogous to RedHat. MontaVista has been the closest thing but they don't have the recognition, loyal users, applications or user experience of Palm OS. Palm OS has taken a hit in recent years, but it's still in a good position to be the front man for the mobile Linux band.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
It's called the "network effect". Not enough mobile linux developers yet.
> "...Is POS the only OS that can exploit Linux?..."
No, but Palm OS has the largest, most vibrant developer base of either Symbian or the struggling wince platform.
> "...If so then Nokia is in for a rude awakening..."
Nokia is going to ship a fantastic Linux device later this year. Read about the Nokia 770, and start to imagine how much Nokia would like to get the huge catalog of fantastic Palm applications working on that baby.
Look for Nokia to becoming one of the first major Palm Linux licensees.
> "Its not just about the underlying OS..."
Standard wince claptrap. "It's not that wince sucks! It's that microsuck is SO BIG!". Get over it. Wince will be kicked to the curb when Mobile XP ships in a few quarters. Its the only way m$ will be able to compete with linux in the mobile space.
> "...To put simply, why would a small company chose to make and sell POS devices, and why should a consumer chose to buy such a device..."
Because the devices will run Linux, which means the entire OS can be customized to the device vendors desire, and drivers will be already available and enhanced for free by enthusiasts. Becuase the devices will have access to the huge Palm OS application catalog. Becuase the applications will be more compatible with the massive back-end Linux build-outs occuring in the market. Etc, etc, etc.
> "...PalmLinux, will not [succeed] [whine/whine/whine]..."
Get some sleep, kid. You wince freaks in for a rough future. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin: Please S T F U.
Did Sammy write that "fantastic" comment for you, Kirvin?
Your posts here hiding under your current alter ego make even the WORST Windows Mobile trolls look brilliant by comparison. And the more absurd things you say on the Internet in a pathetic attempt to defend Palm/PalmOS, the more you actually damage the platform. The fact that you don't realize that your retarded, delusional cheerleading isn't helping the platform just underscores your lack of intellect, Jeff. That's actually not an insult - it's an honest observation that has been made by many within the industry that have seen your posts over the years. Feel free to deny the truth if doing so will protect your fragile ego, though.
Kirvin, your weekly flip flops in opinion would be amusing were it not for the fact that some naive newbies actually believe you know what you're talking about. The sad reality is that - like a prototypical cult leader - you have no qualms about contradicting yoursef repeatedly and twisting the facts to match your bizarre version of "reality". How many times have you changed your views on PalmOS and multitasking, Kirvin? Do you now finally admit there will be a Windows Mobile Treo? Is that somehow a good thing for PalmOS? What's your opinion THIS WEEK on PalmOS 5 being "good enough" for Palm to rely on for the next 2 or 3 years?
Do us all a favor and leave the commentary to people with the intelligence to formulate cogent positions that won't immediately wilt under the most casual scrutiny.
I had decided to not post any more at PIC due to Ryan's new censorship policy, and I see that the Palmyannas like you and Beersy have now set up shop here like ****roaches coming out after the lights are turned off. I hope people like Kent Pribbernow, Surur, Timothy Rapson and hkklife will be able to prevent PIC from degenerating into yet another useless fanboy site (you know which ones!) that serves up treacle-smothered Pablum to obediant zombie-eyed cult members too brainwashed to question what they're being told.
****************************************************************************
Note to hengeem: Surur is correct - well over 90% of PalmOS licences are to Palm. (I believe the current figure is a little over 93%.) Palm hasn't had as low as a 65% share for around 2 YEARS.
*****************************************************************************
Note to Beersy: While you seem to finally be toning your delirious fanboy act down a little (apparently you now realize that Cobalt is a steaming pile of feces) you're sadly still in denial about a lot of things. As I had predicted before the recent deal, Palm tried to pull a fast one and buy back PalmSource at a bargain basement price (which would have allowed them to swindle Palm investors out of that $30 million Palm had given away for rights to the "Palm" name within months of the intended merger). Had the stock for stock scam been accepted it would have cost Palm very little up front given how much cash they would have acquired from PalmSource in the planned conclusion of their sleazy little shell game/scheme. But Palm just got a little too clever and a little too greedy. They should have waited a few more month to run PalmSource's stock value down to $3 - $4 before swooping in. As it stands now, while Palm will survive the next 2 years (as planned) as Just Another WinMob Licensee (with Treos soon accounting for 75% - 80% of revenue), their longterm future (control of PalmLinux) just slipped through their hands. As usual, Palm's execs botched the job. Only problem is that unless the deal falls through, this time there will be no second chance for Palm. It's now Game Over.
The exodus of developers fleeing the PalmOS platform will be the big story for 2006. Careful you don't get trampled, Beersy.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: $324 Million Blown
The original Zaurus, while cool, was an unpolished product. Linux didn't do it any favors. The Zaurus also suffered a lack of marketing, poor name recognition, and Sharp's early withdrawl to the Japan-only market. Say what you will, though, they had flash storage, VGA, a real web browser, and built-in hard drives before anyone else did.
PlayForSure is going to suck, just like all the other attempts at DRM. Even the name reflects the failures of the past--it's called "PlayForSure" because they want to distance it from all the other DRM schemes that screwed the pooch on even being able to play properly.
I wonder if the content industry will ever realize that if they stopped blowing millions on attaching ridiculous copy protection scams to overpriced products, they'd save money in the long run.
cervezas said:
Oh now you're just talking crazy. Everyone knows that Linux, when aerosolized into the atmosphere can neutralize global terrorism, improve erectile function and reverse declining Sunday School attendance. What are you, some kind of commie?
I just f-ing love that line. Thank you.
Nokia has no interest in playing nice with PalmSource or anyone else. Their interest is in owning the market for themselves, not just in hardware but in software too. Why have only half the pie when you can have the whole thing? They'll push their own flavor of Linux, counting on their size and marketing power to make it work.
D.O., you really need get over this obsession with desktop/handheld compatibility. There aren't going to be XP handhelds in 18 months, and PalmLinux isn't going to run desktop applications.
RE: $324 Million Blown
No more Dogg Poundin'!
Palm's new releases are a week away!
End of recess for the PALMyannas!
What an October it's gonna be!
On a semi-related note:
Sony is starting to jettison proprietary (read: money LOSING) schemes/formats (MiniDisc, ATRAC etc). Will MemoryStick be the next to go? I say that we'll start to see a smattering of MS/SD (low end) or MS/CF (high end)-enabled devices from Sony ala Minolta & Samsung cameras that had dual memory slots.
And, Voice, I'd argue that many smaller developers have already abandoned the platform sometime in the past two years. Sure, they might've issued a token update here or there to bring their stuff into Treo 600 compliance. But for the most part, we stopped seeing "aggressive" new releases & product updates sometime in late '03 or early '04. The T3 really was the last gasp of the PalmCONomy is more ways than one (Palm's swan song, the last Universal Connector handheld, the last unit people really got excited over and make developers update their apps solely for it etc).
RE: $324 Million Blown
Who the hell is Jeff, you very silly person? :)
While I'm flattered that you feel my posts are similar to someone you apparently considered influential, you're barking up the wrong tree with the identity guesses. :)
> "...I had decided to not post any more at PIC..."
But you lack self-discipline. We can tell. :)
> "...As I had predicted before the recent deal..."
A different company bought the firm. Please get over it and move on. It makes you sound silly when you keep re-editing what you actually said. :D
The rest of your post was pretty content free, so we'll leave it at that. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: $324 Million Blown
I'm sure thats all true, but why did some other company not pick up their design and make it work? Surely AccessOS will suffer many of the same problems.
Regarding DRM - I don't like it, but its the way of the world. In 10 years time we will be as used to it as we are at giving our credit card numbers over the Internet, or buying an x-box we cant mod etc etc. We all know the clampdown has started years ago, and with consumers preferring convenience over rights nothing is going to stop that steamroller. Look at the phone ring tone situation on mobile phones for an example where expensive content is irrevocably tied to one device only. Look at how the word "Digital Restrictions Management" has not caught on (I wish it would). Look at region coding on DVDs, or the Itunes store success.
There is no saving us from DRM anymore. And to bring it back on topic, not supporting DRM will be a weakness of a platform, as even some Linux Advocates admit.
Surur
Palm's Swan Song: the Fat Lady (Colligan) sings (for Gates)
I actually kept checking back at Palminfocenter every few days to see if there was anything interesting going on in the PalmOS world. I stopped posting, but after seeing all the crap posted by "Dr Dumba$$" and Beersy I had to set things straight. At least poeple like you, AdamaDBrown and Surur (of all people!) have tried to counteract some of the BS being spewed here.
No more Dogg Poundin'!
That Snoop Doggy Dogg character definitely has some style. I hope they stick around, but I haven't seen anything from them in a while.
Palm's new releases are a week away!
Unfortunately it's "same old sh1t, different day".
End of recess for the PALMyannas!
The Palmyannas are fast becoming a blight upon the PalmOS platform.
What an October it's gonna be!
Actually, this is the beginning of the end. Palm losing control of PalmLinux was the last straw. I've now given up any remaining hope that PalmOS will ever achieve the level of success I once thought it was destined to have. At this point I've got all my CLIEs and I've got all the apps I'll ever need on a PDA (some of my apps date back to 1998!) so I don't really care anymore. I might get one of those Samsung PalmOS phones that were discontinued and will see how long these will last me in my bunker.
On a semi-related note:
Sony is starting to jettison proprietary (read: money LOSING) schemes/formats (MiniDisc, ATRAC etc). Will MemoryStick be the next to go? I say that we'll start to see a smattering of MS/SD (low end) or MS/CF (high end)-enabled devices from Sony ala Minolta & Samsung cameras that had dual memory slots.
With Memory Sticks being sold out everywhere since the PSP was released I highly doubt Sony would dump such a lucrative revenue stream. In fact, had there been a Memory Stick slot for the PS2, Memory Stick might have become the clear winner in the Memory Wars by now. Sony knows EXACTLY what they're doing - I bought several of their cameras and other devices partly because I already had a few Memory Stick-using CLIEs.
And, Voice, I'd argue that many smaller developers have already abandoned the platform sometime in the past two years. Sure, they might've issued a token update here or there to bring their stuff into Treo 600 compliance. But for the most part, we stopped seeing "aggressive" new releases & product updates sometime in late '03 or early '04. The T3 really was the last gasp of the PalmCONomy is more ways than one (Palm's swan song, the last Universal Connector handheld, the last unit people really got excited over and make developers update their apps solely for it etc).
When a developer of the stature of CES Dewar (DateBk 5) - the BEST PalmOS developer, period - comes out and basically says Palm is a bunch of arrogant, incompetent a-holes, I think the message is clear. If you look at how many apps have now been ported to Windows Mobile and also how development of PalmOS apps has slowed, a disturbing trend is clear.
And by the way, several people within PalmSource knew about the Nokia deal at least a week before the sh1t hit the fan. Those people don't know how to keep a secret. Some investors made a KILLING because of their loose lips. Thanks, Boys...
Anyway, I'm outta here. I'll leave the debunking of Palmyanna lies and FUD to those of you who still care about Palm. I STILL can't believe Palm could have managed to take a platform that had SO much potential in 1999 - 2000 and then absolutely butchered it with incompetence and neglect. The stories I've heard coming out of Palm/PalmSource over the past few years are truly STUNNING. It will make a good book someday, but many people will probably find it difficult to believe things were so bad.
Take care.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: $324 Million Blown
The exodus of developers fleeing the PalmOS platform will be the big story for 2006.
Voice, just because you play with PDAToolbox doesn't mean you know a damned thing about Palm developers. If you did you'd know that most career Palm developers started diversifying into WinCE more than a year ago. That being the case, there's very little reason to "flee" anything. Mostly they just seem to be fessing up about it now.
That said, this is my best year ever and I've (amazingly) yet to see a client who preferred Windows over Palm OS.
Still, the recent Palm announcement has definitely picqued the interest of developers who haven't already given WM a look. There's going to be a lot of porting going on to get ready for the WM Treo.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
I think you just backhandedly agreed with TVoR's statement that you quoted.
It doesn't matter. Voice is so convinced I'm a "PALMyanna" that even when I throw him a bone he usually acts like it's an attack. Poor little fella.
But yeah, if you develop mobile software for your livelihood you can afford to be optimistic or pessimistic about the Palm platform but you can't afford to be stupid. So you prepare for contingencies like the usual "Microsoft takes all" scenario, but no way do you walk away from all the good Palm OS business that's still out there.
With the Windows Treo I expect we'll finally see a lot of people being nervous enough about Palm OS that they'll start going with Windows Mobile as the "safe bet." Particularly in the enterprise, which is understandably anxious about mobile platform uncertainty. If it weren't for the Cobalt-induced lull in product from PalmSource I don't think this would have been the case. And unfortunately it's too late for Cobalt to recover that lost momentum now, unless maybe we were to see Cobalt on the next Treo.
If it didn't seem like the stars were all aligned really well for Palm Linux, I'd rank with the pessimists. But I see Palm banking quite seriously on the future of the platform and I believe that (finally!) some major Asian licensees will do the same. So, while there may not be a lot of good news for Palm OS over the next year, I think it's pretty realistic to expect that tide to turn.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
As Palm goes, so does PalmSource, at least in the collective eyes of the American marketplace. And don't kid yourself into thinking PalmSource are going to get any major traction in the Asian marketplace. I'd rather be on Microsoft's XBOX Japan division than tasked with moving POS units of any sort in Asia!
So when Palm keeps issuing buggy, poorly built handhelds with overly high price tags, no wi-fi, and different styli/peripheral connectors, the few owners who still use PDAs will either jump ship to WinMob simply by default or pull a Gekko and go with a smartphone. They may see WinMob as a "safe" OS but they'll quickly learn Palm's hardware isn't "safe". Sure HP & Dell have their fair share of problems but they at least can afford mass recalls/replacements etc. Palm cannot, simple as that.
RE: $324 Million Blown
I see the main problem, David, as that of Palm's diminishing quality and bang-for-the-$ hardware-wise IRRESPECTIVE of the OS running on said hardware. As Palm goes, so does PalmSource, at least in the collective eyes of the American marketplace.
No question, in the near-to-medium term the two companies are linked. Beyond that it's all just speculation. So yeah I mostly agree with that.
But on the issue of quality you need also to remember that part of the problem is the OS. Palm is trying to create stable devices of a complexity that Garnet's RTOS kernel was never meant to handle. It's not like Garnet hits a brick wall one day, it's mainly that the engineering required to add new features to it escalates over time. We've heard about how Cobalt had trouble getting to market because devicemakers had to make drivers for everything from scratch. Same goes for Garnet--at least when they roll out new hardware. So, I'm not surprised to see Palm cutting corners on QA or leaving out popular features like WiFi in order to make product release deadlines.
And don't kid yourself into thinking PalmSource are going to get any major traction in the Asian marketplace. I'd rather be on Microsoft's XBOX Japan division than tasked with moving POS units of any sort in Asia!
It may not be as hard as you think with a giant like DoCoMo taking a huge stake in it. Remember PalmSource is an Asian company now. The question is, how much do we as US users and developers care about the Asian market? Even if Palm OS can penetrate China I'm doubtful that US-based 3rd party developers can. And how many of those cool Linux-powered Palm phones are going to be sold in the US market? Difficult to say, but if past experience is any indication we'll get the leftovers here. Now, the best Palm OS devices I've owned have been "leftovers" from Asia--Samsungs and Sonys--but you still have to wonder.
And that kind of brings us back to Palm, doesn't it?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: $324 Million Blown
By putting all of their eggs into the Treo basket, Palm is going to set themselves up for feast & famine quarters based on carrier agremeents and new product launches. Here's an analogy:
The cell phone market pretty much has turned into one of churn based on finding the best deal upon contract expiration rather than one of signing up new customers. Besides, the carriers, not end users, are now Palm's "customers". As far as the customers are concerhed, the pricey smartphones will cause more people will get suckered into 2-year agreements to bring the price down to palatable levels
SO, let's say Palm releases a hot new Treo. It sells like hotcakes initially to the early adopters who will pay full retail while in contract and/or to those unafraid to shell out the $ for an unlocked phone. The carriers also purchase a large quantity for launch. After it's cooled off and whatever woes that model has see the light of day online, demand rapidly cools and they quickly return to the usual rate of selling phones to the carriers at the estimated trickle rate (based on how many customers they anticipate re-upping their contracts or defecting from another carrier). What if Sprint has a model Verizon does not? By the time that model lands on Verizon it's become "old news" for many.
If I am incorrect (I do not work in the wireless industry) then someone please correct me. But I'd still think that PDAs could and should make for a nice complimentary revenue stream alongside the Treos and shouldn't continue to be ignored outright (ie continued rehashes of the tired & ugly T|E formfactor).
An additional example:
In the old days of the PDAs sold at retail, you'd have someone who bought a m505 in the spring and then bought a new T|T that fall, selling the m505 for 1/2 of its sales price online. That's the sort of aggressively loyal customer that Palm has traditionally had--or someone who got a white Zire for Christmas, loved the concept but wanted a better screen/CPU/ and by the summer had bought a new Tungsten. The cellular market works differently, with the carriers as middlemen between Palm & the customer--something they have not had to deal with on a large scale basis until now.It's not like the T|W was intended to be the main cash cow over the Zire & T|T. The Treo now has to be the cashcow AND the flagship device.
RE: $324 Million Blown
I'm curious: do most people think that Hawkins' description of Palm's "third business" was referring to the LifeDrive? In his mind this was something that was going to be as revolutionary for Palm as the shift from organizers to smartphones was, and I have a hard time reconciling that with the LifeDrive. I'd like to think that the LifeDrive is to Palm's third business as the VisorPhone was to the Treo.
In any case, yeah, Palm would be better off if it's business didn't become completely based on smartphones and their carrier-customers.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Will Voice-of-Dumbness finally go away now? :)
You, Sir, are the blight:
(1) Year after year you come up with random FUD about how the end-of-the-world-is-nigh. Time proves you wrong again and again. Yet you persist, annoyingly.
(2) You are less ignorant than your stream-of-consciousness rants might suggest, but it seems like a close call sometimes.
(3) You are utterly incapable of holding a rational, civil argument, and continually launch into personal attacks any time people prove you wrong.
(4) You can't utter a single truely postive comment thing about anything on the site.
> "...Actually, this is the beginning of the end..."
Quit with the end-of-the-world-is-nigh stuff, fool! :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
Palm Apologists: prepare to drink your Jonestown Kool-Aid
svrontis @ 10/4/2005 11:55:20 PM: "The Vat of Refuse. Bozo."
It's sad to see how slow-witted Palm Apologists tend to be. But in some ways it actually makes sense that those who blindly defend Palm's actions are not exactly the brightest bulbs in the box...
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
Palm Apologist IQ
"You" contribution? Looks like the real "Bozo" is waiting to meet you in the mirror. Go to him. Now.
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
Hey, Rocky, watch me pull an guess out of my...
Palm's assets, even aside from the current PalmLinux, could still be useful...
People still use (And find useful!) 3.5/4.0, even if PalmSource dosen't want to sell it at a reasoable price. A thin-margin PDA might still make money. Imagine a chinese knockoff chipset that integrates 90% of the palm functionality (8mb RAM, Dragonball clone CPU, digitizer & Etc.) costing $10 to make, and going on a peg for $30 - Hell, stuff the ROM with freeware/shareware games and apps and you probably couldn't keep em' in stock. Then you can have fun selling people cradles and similar.
Yeah, it sounds far-fetched - But if Fossil can turn out a Dragonball-cpu'd watch, it's not too far of a leap to guess that the hardware is possible.
A Volks-wagen of a PDA, as it were.
1000->Personal->IRUpgrade->TRGPro->HE330->Treo 180->270
RE: Hey, Rocky, watch me pull an guess out of my...
1000->Personal->IRUpgrade->TRGPro->HE330->Treo 180->270
RE: Hey, Rocky, watch me pull an guess out of my...
Has Ryan taken my challenge?
If this is part of an active attempt to cut down the noise level and enable some substantive discussion, bravo! People should put the word out that there are some improvements being made here.
Ryan, can you confirm or deny?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
I think you'll find Ryan taking a VERY cool stance on trying to "out" members of PIC and divulging anyone's identities. Voice has been on PIC a LONG time and posted under different aliases in the past, usually subtly altering his/her posting style/tone/personality each time.
I've actually found the frontpage banter here to be less entertaining over he past two weeks. We went from venomous attacks laced with accurate insights (aka the UGLY TRUTH) into the state of the PalmCONomy to a bunch of semi-rude. semi-polite differences of opinion that just seem to go in circles.
I personally cannot WAIT to see the sparks flying when:
1. The new PDAs are announced/reviewed
2. The 700W is officially announced/reviewed
3. The 700p is officially announced/reviewed/fails to materialize
At any rate, the circle the wagons mentality that prevails over at 1src has REALLY gotten bad lately. They've gone from circling the wagons to outright denying facts. Brighthand continues to beat the PALMyanna drums that the LD isn't a bad handheld at all, its update is coming ANY day now, and Palm's WinMob identity crisis isn't, after all, a bad thing at all.
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
What do you mean about Ryan's "stance on trying to "out" members of PIC and divulging anyone's identities"?
I've actually found the frontpage banter here to be less entertaining over he past two weeks. We went from venomous attacks laced with accurate insights (aka the UGLY TRUTH) into the state of the PalmCONomy to a bunch of semi-rude. semi-polite differences of opinion that just seem to go in circles.
In my experience the ugly truth is ugly enough without it being lovingly decorated by TVoR with bits of his own feces! :P
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
I think if TVoR had been banned outright, it'd have been mentioned by Ryan or a mod in the OT forums. Surur acted up a few times but reappeared and has been (mostly) playing nice lately.
GO PIC!
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
I agree that the tone of comments has been very respectful and more polite around here lately and that is a good thing.
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
Ryan - you do a great job here. 217+ Comments from LOTS of DIFFERENT people with DIFFERING opinions in the PIC WM Treo thread proves PIC is #1. Contrast this with other discussion sites which have a lot less posts - and those posts are all from the same half dozen or so kids (and their scout leader) all posting the same fanboy nonsense and all agreeing with each other - and anyone who disagrees gets censored or banned. That's just not a very interesting or healthy discussion environment.
Thanks again for your efforts! Keep up the great work!
G
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
The Scout Leader theme is effing hilarious. Reminds me every time of the SNL skit.
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
Just kidding, geeko. You know I love you. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
You make me sick David Beers. You are acid and poison every forum you post in. Your high and mighty know nothing attitude with its useless info is a bore. And your personal attacks of members trying to gain the sympathy of the editors as you have done here and other forums shows just how pathic you are.
Has Ryan taken my challenge! David Beers has a chillin effect on real discussion.
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
And let's be real here: no-one's going to miss Voice-of-Dumbness and continual attempts to imminentize the eschaton of the Palm OS. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
More LIES from Beersy.
Has Ryan taken my challenge! David Beers has a chillin effect on real discussion.
Well said, benamy. The actions of Mr. Beers (and the similar Mr. Kirvin) are truly disgusting.
benamy seems to be one of TVoR's alter egos. A bruised one, apparently. ;-) For some reason he's always been particularly fond of me. Best to ignore this one.
Keep up the lies, Beersy. You're pathetic. Really.
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
beersie is harmless. come on, look at him. all he wants out of life is to have enough money to buy a pan pizza and big bottle of mountain dew every day. life is good.
http://www.pikesoft.com/images/David.jpg
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
beersie is harmless. come on, look at him. all he wants out of life is to have enough money to buy a pan pizza and big bottle of mountain dew every day. life is good.
I'm eating your lunch, Gekko. You still a "millionaire" these days?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Beersy just got p0wned by Gekko. How sad.
Too slow, Beersy. You look even dorkier than you sound (if that's possible).
http://www.pikesoft.com/images/David1.jpg
Maybe a really bad person will run your Volvo's plates and send you a little surprise...
I see PIC's been taken over by Palm Apologist ****roaches since I stopped posting here. Now that the PalmOS platform is about to implode I suppose it's only fitting that the only remaining decent discussion site would be scuttled by dumba$$es like you and Jeff "Changed My Mind!" Kirvin.
By the way, is it true that most of your developing is now no longer for PalmOS? Why, Beersy? Why? Why?
And for your future reference: when you get p0wned like Gekko did to you, just admit it, S T F U and hang your head in shame. Trying to fight back with weak responses like, "I'm eating your lunch, Gekko. You still a "millionaire" these days?" is the equivalent of flailing wildly in quicksand. The sand is already covering you, Beersy.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
i see beersie is modeling the latest men's winter wear from target. i love the gq pose with the target ensemble. you guys in fly-over country really know your fashion!
p.s. if you must know, ~$1.1M and growing daily.
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
Too slow, Beersy.
Saying it doesn't make it so, little man.
Especially in your case! Ha ha ha! So when was the last time you were right in one of your predictions? Are you trying to make Kirvin look good?
As for "pathetic" let's run down the check list on you, my friend:
* Hides anonymously behind an alias ... CHECK.
* Has to create other aliases that make posts in defense of himself... CHECK.
* Runs away and sulks for two weeks after the admin cleans up a couple of his public bowel movements... CHECK.
* Styles himself the (anonymous) "heavyweight champion" of a Palm enthusiasts web site... CHECK.
At least Gekko and Jeff Kirvin seem to be marginally employed. You on the other hand would be right at home at the Greyhound station shouting random expletives at fire hydrants and stinking of urine.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
if you must know, ~$1.1M and growing daily.
Very good. What do you do for a living, by the way?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Definition: To Kirvin (verb)
1. kirvin
To constantly flip-flop and change your opinion due to trying to keep up with the latest manoeuvering of a cause you unconditionally support and apologize for, constantly being wrong.He is kirvin again on the reasons for invading Iraq.
or
He's kirvin again on whether PalmOS is dead or not.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kirvin
Wow! He's better known than I thought!
Surur
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
For future reference, having a name like "Flanigan" in Texas is against the law. It's for your own protection, you know.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
George Bernard Shaw
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)
Listen up, Gekko
Very good. What do you do for a living, by the way?
Silence. As I thought.
There's a name for people who make infantile personal attacks while cowering behind a pseudonym like a street mongrel. You're a coward, Gekko.
I have nothing against people posting anonymously, but if you want to get personal I suggest you step into the open and do it like a man. Otherwise you might as well have "spineless" written on your forehead.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Has Ryan taken my challenge?
I thought it was understood that geeko is a professional m$ shill?
I'm really surprised that the job is paying so well nowadays. To have earned $1MM or so from 2000 or so posts would mean m$ has been paying around $500 per post. :O
While I agree that geeko's tenacity should demand a good package (and decent benefits), $500/post might be pushing things a little. :D
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Pikesoft bid $300M?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Pikesoft bid $300M?
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
Palm Linux will change the world :)
The biggest problem for any new OS platform has always been network effect.
Palm Linux would allow any "well-written" Palm application to run on a mobile device, instantly providing the "new" Palm OS with tens of thousands of diverse software titles, and presumable a number of linux apps would work also with minimal modification (perhaps not much more than rebuilding/linking).
The platform would be unstoppable... it could be compiled to work on everything from palm devices upto tablets and full-blown PCs.
M$ would definitely have to shut down wince... the only way they could compete would be to get an XP derivative working on mobile devices.
It's going to be interesting times. And tough times if you're into wince. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Palm Linux will change the world :)
Otherwise, what in the hell are you talking about?
RE: Palm Linux will change the world :)
New platforms have a hard time because they have few applications to encourage sales, and few sales to encourage developers. For example, the wince platform has always had a smaller installed base than the Palm economy. Another example: mobile linux devices don't sell incredibly well lacking a large application base. This phenomena is called "the network effect".
Palm Linux will expose both Palm OS and Linux APIs, running on a Linux kernel.
(1) This will make it cheap to get new Palm Linux mobile devices to market, since the underlying OS is well documented, completely customizable, has a massive base of developers, and receives driver development by massive base of hardware manufacturers and linux enthusiasts.
(2) This will mean any new Palm Linux device will be able to run applications from the huge Palm OS application base... by far the largest application base in the mobile space, dominating both wince, symbian, and mobile linux.
(3) This will mean new Palm Linux devices will be easily integrated into large-scale enterprise systems, because they will run the *same* OS as those large-scale enterprise systems, namely Linux. There are fewer and fewer large backend Microsoft buildouts today, and this is quite simply becuase the larges technical consulting/implementation firms recommend Linux almost exclusively. The reason is simple: by using Linux on a massive buildout they can charge less -- and simultaneously make more profit -- they could basing it on XP.
The only possible competitive response from microsuck will be to ship an XP derivative that runs on mobile devices in an attempt to bring a large developer base to *their* mobile platform. Wince will be dropped unceremoneously. Exisiting wince developers will be hating life. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Palm Linux will change the world :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Palm Linux will change the world :)
Okay, I'm going to ignore the fact that you said "both" then listed three things. However, this statement is inaccurate. Palm OS has 28,000 applications, speaking roughly. PocketPC has about 20,000. Symbian is in third with 8,200. The Zaurus--ignoring any other versions of Linux as being irrelevant--has 2,400. That's a total of 30,600 applications running on non-Palm OSes.
Now, if we assume that you meant each application base individually (which was not the wording of your message) than Palm OS *does* have the top slot.
By the way, the "installed base" line is tripe. The vast, vast majority of all those older units like the Palm III are no longer in service--I should know, I own one. It's like Ford saying "If you count the Model T, we've had a banner year!" What counts is sales over the last 3-4 years, because those are the devices that are in active service.
In any event, anyone blithely stating that a smartphone OS will "change the world" needs to get away from the computer more often.
Story of another OS
Deoes anyone remember another OS that was sold off by its creator because he didn't quite know what he had tehre, and what could be done with it?
Circa 1980?
Atul Chitnis
http://atulchitnis.net
RE: Story of another OS
Didn't the story basically say that IBM was going to buy it around 1980 but was rebuffed by CP/M's creator/designer who ended up selling it for much, much less to Microsoft or DEC later on in the mid 80s?
RE: Story of another OS
IBM didn't want to license CP/M from Digital Research for their forthcoming "IBM Personal Computer": they felt the price was too high and were interested in alternatives.
Bill Gates had relatives with connections to IBM. They heard about this situation and spoke to Bill. Bill was an entrepreneur who had written BASIC for microcomputers, but didn't have any operating system experience. He knew about Q-DOS, bought it from the original developer, and pitched it to IBM. Before release Bill edited the source code. Every occurance of "Q-DOS" was replaced with "MS-DOS", and a computer legend was born! Of course, the name Q-DOS was an amusing pun, but it is not clear Bill understood the joke.
In a later ironic move, years later Digital Research (having abandoned CP/M) developed a better DOS than DOS. The so-called DR-DOS provided full MS-DOS compatability with full multi-tasking, years before Microsoft would achieve the same.
Microsoft incorporated special code in Windows 3.x to detect DR-DOS and crash in order to eliminate this annoying competition. Of course, MS-DOS/Windows *still* didn't provide proper memory protection and multitasking at this point, but the point was to force customers to use MS-DOS under windows despite the weaker feature set.
DR-DOS was later bought by Novell who successfull sued Microsoft for this obscene (yet typical) behavior.
DR-DOS is now open source software, I believe.
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Story of another OS
The Japanese are masters at commoditization - without them, we'd all be offering our first-born for any form of computing power. While I am not saying that Access *is* going to provide that kind of greater initiative and better handling of PalmOS, they at least stand a better chance at doing that than Palm, who have proven themselves incapable of doing anything at all with it.
Atul Chitnis
http://atulchitnis.net
Anyone have access to the Delaware Court System?
One of those companies involved in The Bidding War threatened to sue in October. Wonder if they did...
RE: Anyone have access to the Delaware Court System?
Yeah I've been watching that, too.
I hardly think Company A's claim, even if it did go to court, would be a deal-breaker for ACCESS. To a company that just fought tooth and nail to win the bid and whose backers came in with $324M cash, $9M is like a 0.3% sales tax on their purchase.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Company A = Motorola
Motorola has asked a judge to award it an $8.7 million breakup fee from PalmSource, which Motorola said reneged on a $17.25-per-share buyout agreement last month.
Schaumburg-based Motorola said in a Delaware Chancery Court lawsuit filed Monday that PalmSource directors accepted Motorola's offer on Sept. 7, only to agree two days later to an $18.50-per-share, $324 million, offer from Japan's Access Co. Ltd.
''PalmSource was obligated to pay Motorola the termination fee of $8,697,595 on or before Sept. 16, 2005,'' but failed to do so, Motorola said in court papers.
How many OS's do Moto need? Symbian, linux, WM and POS?
Surur
RE: Anyone have access to the Delaware Court System?
How many OS's do Moto need? Symbian, linux, WM and POS?
Moto dropped Symbian in 2003. As you yourself pointed out, they've also been burned by the slow release of WM 5. Since that time they've come out with three Linux phones and promised five more in the next several months. But those phones can't touch the Treo: they use MontaVista's Mobilinux, IIRC, and don't have an application stack or UI anywhere near what Palm OS could provide as a framework on top of Linux. So Moto's answer to your question may very well have been: one OS is enough. Maybe two if Microsoft behaves.
As for the lawsuit, that's ok, they can keep that check from ACCESS in a drawer and hand it right back to them when they license Palm Linux next year. :)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Anyone have access to the Delaware Court System?
May you live in interesting times.
Ancient Chinese Curse
Surur
RE: Anyone have access to the Delaware Court System?
Or so says PSRC. ;-)
The last and highest bid from Company A to acquire PalmSource was for $17.25 per share in an all-cash transaction, conditioned on completion of merger agreement negotiations and execution of a definitive agreement prior to the opening of market the next day. The board of directors concluded that Company A had made the highest bid and Jefferies Broadview delivered its oral opinion that, as of September 7, 2005, based on and subject to certain assumptions, qualifications, limitations and factors, the $17.25 in cash per share to be received by holders of PalmSource common stock was fair, from a financial point of view, to holders of PalmSource common stock. Howard Rice summarized legal and contractual issues relating to the proposed transaction, including the status of the merger agreement, the disclosure schedule and closing conditions to which the transaction would be subject. PalmSource’s board of directors then informed Company A that it had authorized its senior management and counsel to proceed on the basis of the $17.25 per share bid, conditioned on completion of merger agreement and disclosure schedule negotiations and execution of a definitive agreement.After the September 7, 2005 special board meeting, negotiations continued between counsel for Company A and Howard Rice concerning the terms of a definitive merger agreement and the related disclosure schedule.
Very shortly after the September 7, 2005 special board meeting, ACCESS Co. submitted to PalmSource by e-mail an unsolicited increased offer to acquire PalmSource for $18.50 per share in an all-cash transaction. Mr. Gassée, members of PalmSource’s senior management, representatives of Jefferies Broadview, representatives of Howard Rice and the outside consultant then discussed this higher offer. It was determined that a special board meeting needed to be convened on September 8, 2005 to consider the higher offer. Jefferies Broadview was directed to inform the financial advisor to Company A that a higher offer had been received and that the PalmSource board of directors was reviewing the higher offer. Through the night of September 7, 2005 and into the morning of September 8, 2005, representatives of Howard Rice continued to negotiate the terms of definitive merger agreements and disclosure schedules with counsel to ACCESS Co. and counsel to Company A.
On September 8, 2005, PalmSource received a letter from Company A demanding that PalmSource enter into an agreement with Company A based on the $17.25 price. ACCESS Co. was apprised of the receipt of that letter.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
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$324 Million Blown
Fools!