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Comments on: Motorola Also Bid For PalmSource

The Chicago Sun-Times is reporting that Motorola was also interested in purchasing PalmSource. Motorola claims PalmSource had accepted their offer and has asked a judge to award them a $8.7 million dollar breakup fee.
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Is this to the good or bad?

sr4 @ 10/5/2005 5:32:59 PM # Q

Moto would have given POS much more exposure, but would not have licensed it to third parties after its obligations ended. So is Access actually a better home for POS, or would it have been better if Moto won?

Surur

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 5:36:26 PM # Q
Are you kidding? It's FAR better for the Palm OS that ACCESS won. Had Moto won, Palm would have been dependent on a direct competitor for the Palm OS, as would LG, GSPDA and any other phone vendor that wanted to license Palm OS. Many, maybe even Palm, would likely have bailed.

It's much, much better if Moto simply licenses Palm OS. All the exposure without throwing ice-water on the rest of the Palm economy.

Yeah, yeah... "What rest of the Palm economy?"

Wait and see. ;)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
LiveFaith @ 10/5/2005 5:36:46 PM # Q
Palm had to have freaked upon hearing that possibility. Direct competitor of your cashcow owning your OS does not make a binnessman happy.

Ohhhhh, but a RAZR Plinux Treo killer wooda been a beautiful thang!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 5:47:41 PM # Q
LiveFaith wrote:
Ohhhhh, but a RAZR Plinux Treo killer wooda been a beautiful thang!

Whaddaya mean "wooda", Pat? This is where you're supposed to show us the pictures you snuck out of the lab or clipped from some electronics catalog you found blowing across the Gobi Desert. You slippin' man?

But seriously, why NOT a Plinux RAZR? Just because Moto doesn't own PalmSource doesn't mean they can't license the OS. In fact the news that Company A is Moto (not Nokia) is very good because Moto's bid is a pretty unmistakable sign they are interested in using Palm Linux on future devices.

They'll be a licensee, mark my word.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
sr4 @ 10/5/2005 5:58:41 PM # Q
POS needs the resuscitation NOW, not some time in the next 18-24 months. Being bought by Access has actually damaged the credibility of the platform, while being bought by Moto would have given it a huge amount of credibility.

Surur

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 6:09:17 PM # Q
POS needs the resuscitation NOW, not some time in the next 18-24 months. Being bought by Access has actually damaged the credibility of the platform, while being bought by Moto would have given it a huge amount of credibility.

Nah. The damage to credibility has more to do with PalmSource being that much more removed from Palm now. But anyone who knows ACCESS's business says the merger is a great fit and should open a lot of doors for the Palm OS. An acquisition by Moto would have slammed those same doors shut. And we wouldn't have seen Moto phones with Palm OS

The real credibility issue is whether PalmSource delivers on Palm Linux. And some people think they would not have been able to do that without an infusion of cash such as the one they're getting from ACCESS.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 6:49:23 PM # Q
Oops... hit the submit button too early. The last sentence of the first paragraph should have been:

And we wouldn't have seen Moto phones with Palm OS for 15-18 months whether or not Moto had been the acquiring company.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
sr4 @ 10/5/2005 6:54:07 PM # Q

Thats my point really. Being owned by Moto would have sustained the profile of the OS even during the long wait for POSLinux. Instead we get many many articles in many major publications saying POS is dead. This has major implications for sale of POS devices, especially to business, and will also not help OEM/ODM's decide to design for POS.

Surur

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/5/2005 7:03:33 PM # Q
Moto's bid is a pretty unmistakable sign they are interested in using Palm Linux on future devices.

They'll be a licensee, mark my word.

OK, I'll bite.

Motorala will not license PalmOS-for-Linux.

Motorola wants its own user interface for its Linux-based smartphone OS, something that is unique to Motorola phones. That's why they developed their current UI in-house instead of licensing Qtopia, even though they licensed Qt/e to build it on. Buying PalmSource (and terminating Palm, LG and GSPDA's Customer Technology Briefings) would have given them that. Licensing PalmOS obviously won't.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 7:11:08 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
...will also not help OEM/ODM's decide to design for POS.

You're not getting my point. A Moto acquisition most definitely would have helped OEM/ODM's to decide about this, but the decision would have been NO THANK YOU. Palm OS would become just an in-house toolkit for a company best known for its drab hardware and uninspired leadership.

Look, I realize that the buzz is all negative right now and that's not good. But most of that buzz has nothing to do with the acquisition (which the analysts liked) and everything to do with Palm announcing a Windows Mobile Treo.

Being bought by a company that your mother has heard of might have been a comfort to your mother (if she's a Palm user). But I think a Moto buyout would have caused a lot more "end of Palm" doomsaying from knowledgeable sources than we heard after the ACCESS news. Let's face it, Motorola doesn't have a great reputation when it comes to their own phones, and do you think they'd lift a finger to help Palm deliver a future Treo? Why would they?

Even if I accepted that everyone would have been reassured by a Moto buyout, it seems to me that an announcement by Motorola that they are becoming a licensee would have the same effect. And that's what should happen now.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
joeags @ 10/5/2005 7:48:10 PM # Q
I've gotta agree with beer's comments here. The Palm OS, or whatever it will be called in the future, will only have Palm as the major producer on the hardware side for the next year for sure, and I'm sure they will lose more market share. But this acquisition is a marathon, not a sprint.

What's going to matter most is what PLinux is when it comes out. And in that court, the Treo 7xx version around that time will be a perfect answer to this question, because you will be able to compare Microsoft's and Access' version on pretty much identical hardware. If the performance is better, and the development community is behind this (which I'm sure it will be, as where there's money, there's developers!), there will be more manufacturer's stepping up to the PLinux hardware. Dell had a major spat with Palm, but has said in the right situation, they would be open to producing handhelds with Palm OS. And I'm sure the phone manufacturer's would go the same direction, as this OS is being developed directly for smartphone usage, as far as I understand it.

I think the best part about knowing that Motorola was a bidder is that PLinux is looking pretty decent. No company would have purchased PalmSource without looking at it's assets, and it's major asset now is the potential of PLinux. It was enough to make Moto want to pay a 50% premium.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/5/2005 7:51:51 PM # Q
And that's what should happen now.

Should? But you were so confident 20 minutes ago:

They'll be a licensee, mark my word.

Whatever happened? Did my little dose of reality unsettle you?

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
sr4 @ 10/5/2005 8:00:09 PM # Q
I accept that the biggest problem with Moto as the owner of Palm is that they are a hardware vendor, not software, and that they may then kill of all the other licensees. On the other hand, if only Moto made POS devices (like Palm does now) would that have been such a bad outcome (considering that Moto is a large resurgent company with lots of resources).

Surur

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/5/2005 8:07:19 PM # Q
It might not have been so bad. Moto might have produced an Internet Tablet/PDA running PalmLinux in addition to smartphones.

But Moto don't seem too sure which direction they're taking. First they were part of the Symbain group. Then they broke with them and created MotoLinux. Now they have a WM5 phone due by Christmas. I suspect there's some internal conflict within Motorola over which OS to go with. A PalmSource subsidiary might not have prospered.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
svrontis @ 10/5/2005 9:15:59 PM # Q
> Palm OS would become just an in-house toolkit for a company best known for its drab hardware and uninspired leadership.

Not sure if I agree with that last point. Motorola is often held up as a company which has excellent leadership. Most MBA schools do intensive case studies of how Motorola has reinvented itself over the years and they are regarded as a model of how companies should respond to the changing marketplace.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Timothy Rapson @ 10/5/2005 9:27:13 PM # Q
Motorola owning PSCS might have been about like Sony buying PSCS. Motorola makes some swell hardware. They have their own ARM chips. They do it all.
If Sony had purchased PSCS, PalmOne would have had to keep working on decent hardware as they did on the T3 and TE. Now, they can deliver whatever crap they want in the $100-300 range with absolutely no competition.
...

...

Until DoCoMo/Access delivers a phone that kills PalmOne, at least in Asia. Yes, I am now convinced that the real money behind Access's bid is DoCoMo. I suspect DoCoMo has the money for this that Access clearly doesn't have. I still think it a poor buy for them, but at least I could see Access thinking that with DoCoMo backing they could create something worth all that money.


I would rather have seen what Motorola could have done with complete control of both hardware and software in a PDA or a PDA/phone. Guess we'll never know.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 9:28:57 PM # Q
And that's what should happen now.

Should? But you were so confident 20 minutes ago:

They'll be a licensee, mark my word.

Whatever happened? Did my little dose of reality unsettle you?

:)

Sorry, by mistake I answered in the other thread below:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8129#113329

Perhaps I'll regret you "marking my word" as I requested you to. But for the reasons I just explained in the other thread, I stand by my statement that it makes a lot of sense for Moto to be a licensee now that they can't own the Palm OS.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 9:39:10 PM # Q
...Until DoCoMo/Access delivers a phone that kills PalmOne, at least in Asia. Yes, I am now convinced that the real money behind Access's bid is DoCoMo.

Welcome to the club. I had the same a-ha experience when I saw DoCoMo's large stake in ACCESS.

The next thing to do to start getting a picture of what that means is go out to http://www.nttdocomo.com and click the link for the Handset Gallery. (Don't bother if you don't have broadband.) Drop dead gorgeous phones with everything you could ever ask for in them. Why don't we get stuff like that here, dammit?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 10:07:18 PM # Q
Motorola is often held up as a company which has excellent leadership. Most MBA schools do intensive case studies of how Motorola has reinvented itself over the years and they are regarded as a model of how companies should respond to the changing marketplace.

Maybe they should go back and study some of those old case studies themselves. I don't know, I'm not a big Moto-watcher and it's true things seem to have improved since Zander came in, but they've definitely been playing a catch-up game when it comes to the whole concept of converged devices. The RAZR is nice looking but otherwise weak, and what's up with the ROKR? How long does it take to figure out how to make a button that launches iTunes?

Personally, for my own twisted reasons, I kind of like some of their primitive IDEN phones (the ones that Nextel uses) because despite the tiny monochrome screens and weak MIDP APIs they have great little programmable GPS receivers and they're very rugged. That (and the low price) makes them good for some of my business customers. Why you can get a GPS receiver in a $49 Nextel phone but they're not available (much less standard) in ones costing 10 times that I will never understand.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
hkklife @ 10/5/2005 11:14:17 PM # Q
David, what exactly does the GPS receiver in Nextel's phones do? Location-based services and/or helping "find" the customer on the radio network? Or it it just for E911 purposes?

Sad to say I've spent scarce time around contractors etc. and most of them aren't up for talkin' 'bout their phones anyway. I know they are amazingly rugged and have quit a loyal following.

You may recall that I've been pleading for SOMEONE to make a larger (say, LD-sized) ruggedized dual wireless Palm device. Think of it as a hybrid Symbol/Panasonic Toughbook device but a handheld. Add a CF slot to it and it'd have tons of potential in vertical applications, industrial stile applications, nascent RFID projects etc etc!

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
hkklife @ 10/5/2005 11:18:15 PM # Q
BTW, the ROKR is basically Moto's version of the LifeDrive (in SPIRIT, not in form). Moto needed something QUICK that could jump on the iPod/iTunes bandwagon before it lost momentum. They just slapped iTunes onto it and threw some marketing buzz/$ at it. Big deal.

The Razr is nice but has very 2004 specs. Look for the imminent VZW CDMA Razr "1.5" to add EVDO and a 1mp camera before the REAL RAZR 2 for GSM arrives sometime next year and ups the ante significantly.

If the LD is analogous to Moto's ROKR, then the RAZR is analogous to the Palm V. It's simply redefined Moto in a way not seen since the original StarTac in '96ish. I lusted after a 'Tac for years but it wasn't until '00 that they became really affordable. How often in the tech world do you see a device that remains basically unchanged design-wise but remains fairly desirable up through it's discontinued and EOL? No, the V60 series doesn't count (close but not quite).

Why don't we get "stuff like that here"? Thank the FCC and the relative insignificance of GSM in this country. With the territory that must be covered (you ever been out in rural Nevada or Arizona? You're blessedly lucky to get an analog signal!) GSM will never be a primetime player.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 11:33:22 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
David, what exactly does the GPS receiver in Nextel's phones do? Location-based services and/or helping "find" the customer on the radio network? Or it it just for E911 purposes?

Full-fledged location based services. For example, we've written a couple of apps for the trucking industry that track the position of all the drivers in a fleet, post it wirelessly to a server and then display the data in a web-based mapping application. GPS and wireless are a killer combination.

You may recall that I've been pleading for SOMEONE to make a larger (say, LD-sized) ruggedized dual wireless Palm device. Think of it as a hybrid Symbol/Panasonic Toughbook device but a handheld. Add a CF slot to it and it'd have tons of potential in vertical applications, industrial stile applications, nascent RFID projects etc etc!

Yeah, that would be great. There are a lot of devices like this that run flavors of WinCE and some Linux ones, too, but nothing quite like it on Palm OS. Aceeca's ultra-ruggedized Palms have some promise (despite the old OS) if only there were more plug-in modules that did stuff like you're describing. But you're talking about something with a bigger, higher-res screen, and WAN+WLAN, which would be killer.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 11:54:15 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
Why don't we get "stuff like that here"? Thank the FCC and the relative insignificance of GSM in this country.

DoCoMo's network is not GSM. All those cool phones are CDMA. W-CDMA, to be precise.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/6/2005 6:28:09 AM # Q
Everyone who is making Linux phones right now is doing a lot of the platform development themselves, not just Motorola. It's out of necessity right now and it's one of the reasons why Palm OS for Linux is so eagerly awaited.

That's a non sequitur.

Motorola's developing their own middleware for Linux != "Motorola will be keen to license Palm OS for Linux"

customizability was one of the main criteria for Palm Linux from day one (really from day one of Cobalt). Windows Mobile 5, which Moto is using for the Q, is much less flexible in terms of differentiation. Linux itself is naturally more compenentized than Windows, and the framework-based architecture that PalmSource has developed carries that model up into other areas of the platform.

The customizability argument is an argument for Linux-based OSes over WM, not an argument for PalmLinux over MotoLinux. Which do you suppose Motorola would find easier to customise, middleware they wrote themselves or Palm OS?

I know for a fact that PalmSource is well aware that they'll make more money if they don't saturate the channel with lots of licensees all making very similar devices. That just turns these phones into commodities and squeezes their margins in the long run.

PalmSource don't take a percentage of the shelf price, they receive a fixed payment per device sold, so your 'margins squeezing' argument is bogus.

So if a big vendor like Motorola were to approach ACCESS with a proposal to license Palm OS it wouldn't surprise me if ACCESS would agree to some exclusivity on certain OS features.

Which would mean renegotiating their contracts with Palm, LG and GSPDA. I don't think so.

Palm and Sony always did a lot of custom work in conjunction with PalmSource developers and there's every reason to believe that would happen with Moto.

Yes, Moto could customise the Palm UI as Sony did, although it still wouldn't be truly unique. But you're missing the big point. Why would Moto prefer PalmOS-for-Linux over their own in-house solution, over which they have complete control?

Motorola's leadership doesn't alway act like they are the sharpest pencils in the box, but I have to believe they know that Palm OS gives them the ability to differentiate from Palm just as Sony did, whether they own the OS or just license it. They don't have the option to own it now, so I think they'll find licensing it is a good alternative.

You've said it yourself. You have to believe. Keep the faith Beersie, even as the facts circle you, drawing ever nearer!

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/6/2005 7:01:23 AM # Q
So if a big vendor like Motorola were to approach ACCESS with a proposal to license Palm OS it wouldn't surprise me if ACCESS would agree to some exclusivity on certain OS features.

Which would mean renegotiating their contracts with Palm, LG and GSPDA. I don't think so.

Palm and Sony always did a lot of custom work in conjunction with PalmSource developers and there's every reason to believe that would happen with Moto.

Yes, Moto could customise the Palm UI as Sony did, although it still wouldn't be truly unique. But you're missing the big point. Why would Moto prefer PalmOS-for-Linux over their own in-house solution, over which they have complete control?

Motorola's leadership doesn't alway act like they are the sharpest pencils in the box, but I have to believe they know that Palm OS gives them the ability to differentiate from Palm just as Sony did, whether they own the OS or just license it. They don't have the option to own it now, so I think they'll find licensing it is a good alternative.

You've said it yourself. You have to believe. Keep the faith Beersie, even as the facts circle you, drawing ever nearer!

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 9:03:31 AM # Q
cervezas: Everyone who is making Linux phones right now is doing a lot of the platform development themselves, not just Motorola. It's out of necessity right now and it's one of the reasons why Palm OS for Linux is so eagerly awaited.

SamH: That's a non sequitur.

No, you're just losing the thread of your own argument, Sam. You gave the fact that Motorola developed their own middleware as your proof that they wanted more ability to customize. But what I pointed out (and you clipped) is that this would only prove your point if there were good alternative middleware stacks out there that they passed up on. There aren't, which is the reason almost everyone is rolling their own, not because they need extra ability to customize.

SamH: The customizability argument is an argument for Linux-based OSes over WM, not an argument for PalmLinux over MotoLinux. Which do you suppose Motorola would find easier to customise, middleware they wrote themselves or Palm OS?

Heh, if they're so fond of their own middleware the question is what were they doing begging PalmSource to accept their $300M.

Moto's Linux platform is extremely thin compared to Palm OS. It has no application stack at all, for example. All you can run on it are J2ME MIDP applications, which are mostly games intended to run on feature phones that the carriers give away to customers. No one is loyal to Motorola because of the software that runs on their phones. So sure, in the abstract you're argument is valid that Motorola might want to do everything themselves to have total control over the platform, but given the way the smartphone market is going and their current poor placement in it I think they'd be stupid to cling to middleware that doesn't come close to being competitive in that market. They could do it, but for their right to radically customize their phones they'll pay by continuing to miss release deadlines and continuing to fall behind in features.

PalmSource don't take a percentage of the shelf price, they receive a fixed payment per device sold, so your 'margins squeezing' argument is bogus.

Now, that's a non-sequitur. At the time when PalmSource negotiates an agreement with a prospective licensee that payment is not fixed and if you don't think that price has everything to do with the degree of market saturation then you're a fool. Why do you think OS makers are so tight-lipped about what their licensing fees are?

cervezas: So if a big vendor like Motorola were to approach ACCESS with a proposal to license Palm OS it wouldn't surprise me if ACCESS would agree to some exclusivity on certain OS features.

Which would mean renegotiating their contracts with Palm, LG and GSPDA. I don't think so.

Uh, how about if you just read the next sentence I wrote, ok?

cervezas: Palm and Sony always did a lot of custom work in conjunction with PalmSource developers and there's every reason to believe that would happen with Moto.

The fact that PalmSource worked together with Palm and Sony to help them add OS features in no way obliged them to change their contract with other licensees or to share that work with those licensees. It's a completely spurious argument.

So, basically, while I agree with you that Motorola might only want to play if they can own the whole enchilada, and based on other stupid business moves they've made I wouldn't put this past them, the fact remains that the benefit they would get from licensing Palm OS far exceeds the cost of giving up some control. That "control" is a double-edged sword that they're clearly getting cut by or they wouldn't have gone hat-in-hand to PalmSource in the first place.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/6/2005 1:05:22 PM # Q
you're just losing the thread of your own argument, Sam.

I think you're mistaking me for someone else, Beersie. Namely, yourself.

You gave the fact that Motorola developed their own middleware as your proof that they wanted more ability to customize.

Yup.

But what I pointed out (and you clipped) is that this would only prove your point if there were good alternative middleware stacks out there that they passed up on.

You've completely reversed your position and mine. Motorola developing their own UI proves my point that they want the ability to customise. Your point that Moto would prefer an alternative (ie PalmOS-for-Linux) to their own middleware for Linux could only be proved if such alternatives existed; and right now, as you say, they don't.

There aren't, which is the reason almost everyone is rolling their own, not because they need extra ability to customize.

But you said customizability was one of the main criteria for PalmLinux. So which is it Beersie? Is customisability important or not?

if they're so fond of their own middleware the question is what were they doing begging PalmSource to accept their $300M.

So they could have control of PalmLinux. We've been over this before.

Now, that's a non-sequitur.

Do you actually know what a non sequitur is? (It's not hyphenated for a start.)

At the time when PalmSource negotiates an agreement with a prospective licensee that payment is not fixed

It's fixed when they sign the agreement.

and if you don't think that price has everything to do with the degree of market saturation then you're a fool.

It has everything to do with how many units the licensee thinks they'll sell. That includes a lot more factors than the what you seem to think of as market saturation.

Why do you think OS makers are so tight-lipped about what their licensing fees are?

See previous point.

The fact that PalmSource worked together with Palm and Sony to help them add OS features in no way obliged them to change their contract with other licensees or to share that work with those licensees.

Good grief Beersie, are you really that dense? palmOne and Sony added their own features to PalmOS, over and above the PalmSource default spec (and requested help from PalmSource to do it). PalmSource never created features and then offered them to one licensee exclusively.

So, basically, while I agree with you that Motorola might only want to play if they can own the whole enchilada,

It's the only explanation that's supported by the facts.

the fact remains that the benefit they would get from licensing Palm OS far exceeds the cost of giving up some control.

Nope, that would be an opinion, not a fact.

That "control" is a double-edged sword that they're clearly getting cut by or they wouldn't have gone hat-in-hand to PalmSource in the first place.

It means Moto want to control their middleware. Which is what I said in my first post.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 2:17:49 PM # Q
SamH wrote:
...

You know what? You're playing games now to try to obfuscate instead of actually answering my points. And you're also starting to slip into ad hominem, which is a pretty good sign that even you think your arguments aren't holding up. Since I think this should be quite clear to anyone else reading the thread I'm content to end the conversation here and leave it to the readers to decide which one of us is making sense.

The only thing I think is worth clarifying as a response to what you have written is this: yes, one of the big wins with Linux (and Palm Linux) is the freedom it gives to vendors to differentiate their devices, both software and hardware. I agree that Motorola gets some extra ability to differentiate if they stick with their own middleware (just like I could drive a totally differentiated automobile if I built it from scratch instead of, say, customizing some vehicle from Detroit). But I think Motorola's recent troubles and their attempt to buy PalmSource are signs that that level of do-it-yourself differentiation is not worth the price they have been paying for it: they're not able to build a platform that's competitive or to release devices with a reasonable time-to-market factor.

Obviously, they would have preferred to have control over the Palm OS since they were willing to pay some $300M for that right as opposed to something substantially less for a multi-year licensing agreement. But if Moto is smart I think they'll take what they can get and accept the high level of customization that Palm OS and PalmSource's engineers afford. If total control over Palm OS is worth $300M more to them than total control over MotoLinux they clearly recognize that MotoLinux is not working out so well.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/6/2005 2:24:28 PM # Q
Sorry, that should read:

But what I pointed out (and you clipped) is that this would only prove your point if there were good alternative middleware stacks out there that they passed up on.

You've completely reversed your position and mine. Motorola developing their own UI proves my point that they want the ability to customise. Your point that Moto would prefer to licensean alternative (ie PalmOS-for-Linux) to their own middleware for Linux could only be proved if such alternatives existed; and right now, as you say, they don't.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
tthiel @ 10/6/2005 2:32:10 PM # Q
"Moto's Linux platform is extremely thin compared to Palm OS. It has no application stack at all, for example. All you can run on it are J2ME MIDP applications, which are mostly games intended to run on feature phones that the carriers give away to customers. No one is loyal to Motorola because of the software that runs on their phones. So sure, in the abstract you're argument is valid that Motorola might want to do everything themselves to have total control over the platform, but given the way the smartphone market is going and their current poor placement in it I think they'd be stupid to cling to middleware that doesn't come close to being competitive in that market. They could do it, but for their right to radically customize their phones they'll pay by continuing to miss release deadlines and continuing to fall behind in features."

It always amuses me how people can write like this on the web yet have no idea what they are talking about. The Q was just moved up to Q4 2005 and you need to do some research on their Linux efforts.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
LiveFaith @ 10/6/2005 2:33:44 PM # Q
I have to agree with Beers asesssment. It makes no sense for Moto to spend $300M on PSRC and then dump the revenue stream in order to keep a GUI which does not even exist.

If they really were going to do that, then let this post stand as a Job Application to Motorola. I'll write em' a whiz-bang GUI and give them full rights to the source for as little as $100M! Just send me a PM and we'll get right to work on it. :-)

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 2:49:11 PM # Q
The Q was just moved up to Q4 2005

Uh huh. And is that going to be running Moto's homegrown Linux OS? No, it's running WM5, which is the same kind of turnkey platform that Palm Linux will be--only not Linux. This seems to lend more support to my argument.

and you need to do some research on their Linux efforts.

Well, I'm sure that's true. ;-) I'm always willing to be educated if you have something to say.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/6/2005 2:54:30 PM # Q
it's running WM5, which is the same kind of turnkey platform that Palm Linux will be--only not Linux. This seems to lend more support to my argument.

Would that be your argument that:

Windows Mobile 5, which Moto is using for the Q, is much less flexible in terms of differentiation [than Linux]. Linux itself is naturally more compenentized than Windows

Because if it is then some people might think that you didn't have a clue what you were talking about.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/6/2005 3:01:47 PM # Q
You know what?

More than you, evidently.

You're playing games now to try to obfuscate instead of actually answering my points.

I'm winning the argument Beersie. It might not be something you're familiar with.

And you're also starting to slip into ad hominem,

You mean when I called you 'dense'? You went there first pal.

which is a pretty good sign that even you think your arguments aren't holding up.

Is that why you started?

Since I think this should be quite clear to anyone else reading the thread I'm content to end the conversation here

Don't be a bad loser Beersie.

and leave it to the readers to decide which one of us is making sense.

Suits me!

I agree that Motorola gets some extra ability to differentiate if they stick with their own middleware.

Gee, thanks.

But I think Motorola's recent troubles and their attempt to buy PalmSource are signs that that level of do-it-yourself differentiation is not worth the price they have been paying for it:

If Moto had bought PalmSource then they would have been doing-it-themselves, through a wholly owned subsidiary.

they're not able to build a platform that's competitive or to release devices with a reasonable time-to-market factor.

Perhaps you should tell Moto they're not able to do that, because so far it looks like that's exactly what they've been doing.

Obviously, they would have preferred to have control over the Palm OS since they were willing to pay some $300M for that right as opposed to something substantially less for a multi-year licensing agreement.

Obviously.

But if Moto is smart I think they'll take what they can get and accept the high level of customization that Palm OS and PalmSource's engineers afford. If total control over Palm OS is worth $300M more to them than total control over MotoLinux they clearly recognize that MotoLinux is not working out so well.

That's pretty impressive Beersie, you've managed to contradict yourself in the space of two sentences. First you say Moto would be smart to license Palm OS, then you acknowledge how valuable total control is to them. I'll give you a clue: you were right the second time.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 3:55:08 PM # Q
If I keep answering your posts are you just going to keep getting less coherent, Sam? Pull yourself together, man.

I'm not a betting man, but perhaps we should settle this with a friendly wager. $25 says Motorola will announce they are licensing Palm OS within 6 months of the release of Palm OS for Linux. I won't even make this conditional on the outcome of Motorola's lawsuit against Palm.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/6/2005 5:25:30 PM # Q
Don't quit on me now Beersie, this is fun!

$25 says Motorola will announce they are licensing Palm OS within 6 months of the release of Palm OS for Linux.

Make it $100 and you're on.

I won't even make this conditional on the outcome of Motorola's lawsuit against Palm.

Moto don't have a lawsuit against Palm Beersie, they have one against PalmSource. When you display a command of the facts like that I almost feel bad about taking your money. Almost.

Poor Beersy...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/6/2005 6:08:05 PM # Q
Debating Beersy is like taking candy from a baby. A slow-witted baby...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 7:19:13 PM # Q
VoR wrote:
Debating Beersy is like taking candy from a baby. A slow-witted baby...

I notice that you've decided not to try it any more, little man. Not that you every really debated anyone. Spewing invectives doesn't qualify I'm afraid.

Crawl back into your hole and try to grow a spine. Then maybe we can talk.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 7:27:14 PM # Q
Make it $100 and you're on.

Brave words. I expect you to keep them when the time comes. We've got a deal.

I won't even make this conditional on the outcome of Motorola's lawsuit against Palm.

Moto don't have a lawsuit against Palm Beersie, they have one against PalmSource.

...which is precisely why I won't make the wager conditional on its outcome. That would be stupid.

Smart*ss!


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Beersy, Beersy, Beersy... Palm has no openings for a TOADY.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/6/2005 10:51:19 PM # Q
>>>VoR wrote:
>>>Debating Beersy is like taking candy from a baby. A slow-witted baby...

I notice that you've decided not to try it any more, little man. Not that you every really debated anyone. Spewing invectives doesn't qualify I'm afraid.

Crawl back into your hole and try to grow a spine. Then maybe we can talk.

David Beers
[Gratuitous self-promoting links deleted]

Who are you calling a man, Beersy? Oh dear.

Debating you is about as challenging as shooting fish in a barrel. Dead fish that are floating on the surface... Every thread in which you've responded to my posts has revealed you to be a rather dim-witted, grandiose, reactionary Palm Apologist who is more concerned with ingratiating himself to Palm/PalmSource employees than saying anything remotely truthful. Much like that pathetic creature known as Jeff "Bootlicker" Kirvin, you have NO CREDIBILITY, Beersy. Try being honest for a change. Otherwise, keep chugging your Palm Cultboy Kool-Aid all you want, but don't try to serve that sh!te up around here.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 7:27:14 PM #

>>>Make it $100 and you're on.

Brave words. I expect you to keep them when the time comes. We've got a deal.

I won't even make this conditional on the outcome of Motorola's lawsuit against Palm.

>>>Moto don't have a lawsuit against Palm Beersie, they have one against PalmSource.

...which is precisely why I won't make the wager conditional on its outcome. That would be stupid.

Smart*ss!

Good one, Beersy. Sam H makes you look like a fool (not that that's hard to do) and the best you can come up with is "...which is precisely why I won't make the wager conditional on its outcome. That would be stupid."???

How sad. I pity you.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 11:45:30 PM # Q
How sad.

Yawn.

Missy, if you're going to make worthless content-free posts like this could you at least try to be creative or funny? Stupid was funny for a while, Miss "Heavyweight Champion," but even that wear's thin after you do it over and over and over.

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 2:45:05 AM # Q
> "...my posts [are] rather dim-witted, grandiose, reactionary..."

Finally, Voice-of-Dumness admits his character flaws to the PIC community. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Do you think Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin will see the irony:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/7/2005 4:58:08 AM # Q
Finally, Voice-of-Dumness admits his character flaws to the PIC community. :)

Kirvin, what's "Dumness"?

I think "Dumness" is waiting for you in the mirror. Go take a look. RUN.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/7/2005 2:14:31 PM # Q
"Make it $100 and you're on."

Brave words. I expect you to keep them when the time comes. We've got a deal.

Great.

I won't even make this conditional on the outcome of Motorola's lawsuit against Palm.

"Moto don't have a lawsuit against Palm Beersie, they have one against PalmSource."

...which is precisely why I won't make the wager conditional on its outcome. That would be stupid."

That doesn't usually stop you.

Incidentally Beersie, if you're in a gambling mood, I seem to recall you making some predictions about Nokia using Linux in their smartphones. Would you care to have a friendly bet on that also?

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/7/2005 4:49:00 PM # Q
SamH wrote:
if you're in a gambling mood, I seem to recall you making some predictions about Nokia using Linux in their smartphones. Would you care to have a friendly bet on that also?

Yeah, right.

Tell you what, the day I bet you that Nokia will release a Linux phone will be the day you bet me that Microsoft will release a Linux phone.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
Sam H @ 10/7/2005 7:19:22 PM # Q
Ah well, it was worth a shot. Guess I'll just have to look forward to collecting my $100 in 2008.

Cheers

Sam

RE: Is this to the good or bad?
cervezas @ 10/7/2005 11:53:22 PM # Q
SamH wrote:

... in 2008.

I see you're an optimist after my own heart!

Glad you accepted the bet. Didn't want you to have to suffer any further embarrassment, you know. ;)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility

Dr Opinion @ 10/5/2005 7:55:31 PM # Q
Again, we see a major player in the mobile space explicitly acknowledging that Palm-on-Linux is an extremely valuable proposition.

Moto's business development people clearly saw the value:

(1) In running Linux instead of Symbian or wince as a kernel on advance mobile devices. This is easy... Linux receives much more support from peripheral manufacturers than wince or Symbian, reducing the cost to get a device to market.

(2) In running Palm OS applications on top of the Linux kernel. This again is easy: Palm totally dominates the mobile space in terms of installed base. This means that any new device running Palm Linux represents a possible upgrade path for an old Palm user, especially if they'd bought some applications. It also means that there are tens of thousands of applications available for the Palm OS, covering every conceivable activity. Symbian and wince together don't even match that.

I can hardly wait to see the first devices. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
cervezas @ 10/5/2005 8:43:32 PM # Q
Motorola wants its own user interface for its Linux-based smartphone OS, something that is unique to Motorola phones. That's why they developed their current UI in-house instead of licensing Qtopia, even though they licensed Qt/e to build it on. Buying PalmSource (and terminating Palm, LG and GSPDA's Customer Technology Briefings) would have given them that. Licensing PalmOS obviously won't.

The primary reason they didn't license Qtopia is because Qtopia sucks on phones. In fact, there really wasn't (and still isn't) a mobile Linux phone platform good enough to make phones that will compete with the likes of a Treo. Everyone who is making Linux phones right now is doing a lot of the platform development themselves, not just Motorola. It's out of necessity right now and it's one of the reasons why Palm OS for Linux is so eagerly awaited.

Sure, differentiation is a factor in this, too. But customizability was one of the main criteria for Palm Linux from day one (really from day one of Cobalt). Windows Mobile 5, which Moto is using for the Q, is much less flexible in terms of differentiation. Linux itself is naturally more compenentized than Windows, and the framework-based architecture that PalmSource has developed carries that model up into other areas of the platform.

Also, this may sound strange given the current situation where Palm is the only major company selling lots of Palm OS devices, but I know for a fact that PalmSource is well aware that they'll make more money if they don't saturate the channel with lots of licensees all making very similar devices. That just turns these phones into commodities and squeezes their margins in the long run. So if a big vendor like Motorola were to approach ACCESS with a proposal to license Palm OS it wouldn't surprise me if ACCESS would agree to some exclusivity on certain OS features. Palm and Sony always did a lot of custom work in conjunction with PalmSource developers and there's every reason to believe that would happen with Moto.

Motorola's leadership doesn't alway act like they are the sharpest pencils in the box, but I have to believe they know that Palm OS gives them the ability to differentiate from Palm just as Sony did, whether they own the OS or just license it. They don't have the option to own it now, so I think they'll find licensing it is a good alternative.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Timothy Rapson @ 10/5/2005 9:40:07 PM # Q
RE "It also means that there are tens of thousands of applications available for the Palm OS, covering every conceivable activity. Symbian and wince together don't even match that."

I have a Zire 72. I can't get TextMaker, Pocket Artists, Adobe viewer that allows viewing of native or full-sized pdfs, a Bible program with real fonts or decent sized clip function, and on and on. Sorry, but the platform with superior software is clearly Windows Mobile.

On the other hand, it is correct that Motorola has not gotten a good WinMob phone out yet. The RAZR ought to run WinMob if it is such a good OS. But, maybe Motorola is not trying as hard as HTC is.

I still can't fanthom why Access would offer $324 million for PalmSource so I am also flommoxed as to Motorola's bid. Motorola has some terrific hardware designs. I would love to see what they might do with Plinux. But, I would have loved to have seen what someone would have done with Cobalt. Yet, PSCS never got Cpbalt and a hardware partner together to allow me to see that. I am not hopeful that Access/PSCS will be able to get Plinux and a hardware partner together in the next year or two. I just don't see it happening. PSCS should have done this instead of Garnet. That is how long this is overdue. I am on record back before Garnet was out saying that I hoped that Garnet was just an OS 4 emulator running over a Linux core to get from OS 4 to Cobalt. It never happened. If PSCS could not deliver an OS5 that worked well enough to be competitive now (it crashes, locks up, and is just plain pushed way beyond its means on my Zire 72) and never delivered a working Cobalt model at all, why would I have any confidence at all that they can deliver Plinux in good shape and on time? I wouldn't.
By the time it is even hoped to ship we will have not only WinMob 5, but WinMob 6 and likely another upgrade to Symbian. I don't see it as even remotely likely to be competitive.

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Dr Opinion @ 10/6/2005 1:47:38 AM # Q
> "... I can't get TextMaker, Pocket Artists, Adobe viewer that allows viewing of native or full-sized pdfs..."

Two wince applications are not ported to palm, therefore the wince has better applications than wince? That's an really absurd conclusion. Was there more meat to your argument, or was that *really* the entire thing???? :)

The fact is, the Palm OS has *many* more applications than wince. And ironically, four or five excellent office suites available on the Palm OS provide infinitely superior MS Office compatability than is available on the wince platform. It's huge. Office support on wince is *terrible* and routinely leads to horribly corrupted documents. wince users think this is "normal". :D

Native PDF support is a bit lame on the Palm, usually needs to be converted. Of course, Adobe are responsible for the Acrobat Viewer, so blame them if it sucks. :)

> "...I still can't fanthom why Access would offer $324 million for PalmSource..."

You are only confused, my friend, becuase you don't seem to understand that (1) the Palm OS is the dominating mobile software platform (more applications than both wince and symbian combined), and (2) that Linux is universally held to be the future core of mobile devices across the industry.

$324MM is a bargain. ACCESS could charge $1/device for the Palm compatability stack and they'll recover the entire cost of the Palm Source asset in two years. Almost every smartphone on the planet would run Palm OS applications. Sweet. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
sr4 @ 10/6/2005 2:33:53 AM # Q
Can I have some of what D.O. is smoking?

Surur

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
AdamaDBrown @ 10/6/2005 3:16:50 AM # Q
Timothy Rapson said:
On the other hand, it is correct that Motorola has not gotten a good WinMob phone out yet. The RAZR ought to run WinMob if it is such a good OS. But, maybe Motorola is not trying as hard as HTC is.

There's a RAZR derived WM Smartphone on the way, but it's not a big thing. Partly, Moto's horrendous job done on smartphone devices (See MPx200, MPx220, MPx, i930, et al.) has been because in the past they've essentially outsourced design--and not to a good company like HTC. The other part, though, is that they just have no idea how to build a data device. They're a phone maker, and they don't seem able to break out of that rut.

D.O. said:
Two wince applications are not ported to palm, therefore the wince has better applications than wince? That's an really absurd conclusion.

Certainly no more absurd than the idea that since PalmOS has X many more obsolete calculator apps that Windows does, that Palm is obviously superior.

The fact is, the Palm OS has *many* more applications than wince. And ironically, four or five excellent office suites available on the Palm OS provide infinitely superior MS Office compatability than is available on the wince platform.

Sorry, but Textmaker is generally agreed to be the best Word replacement of any kind on any mobile OS, superior even to Documents To Go.

Here's where you point out that DTG is bundled with most new Palms, but you just said that the terrible Acrobat viewer isn't Palm's fault--so does Palm/PalmOS get the responsibility for bundled 3rd party apps or not? Just curious.

You are only confused, my friend, becuase you don't seem to understand that (1) the Palm OS is the dominating mobile software platform (more applications than both wince and symbian combined)

Incorrect. Windows has ~20,000 apps, Symbian another 8,400. Palm has about 28,000. Call it nitpicking if you like, but I always like playing with facts.

In any event, the time when Palm could be said to be "dominating" is long since past. I don't know if you've actually looked at reality lately, but PalmOS only holds about a third of the market. They've long since become the number two power, no matter how many Palm OS 3.5 applications still get counted.

and (2) that Linux is universally held to be the future core of mobile devices across the industry.

This is some strange new usage of the word "universally" that I'm unaware of. The reality is that outside of China and Asian markets where ultra-low-cost cell phones thrive, Linux has flopped as a mobile OS. There's no unified standard for the OS the way there is for Windows, Palm, Symbian, et al, which means that everyone wants to create their own flavor. Why pay for someone else's UI when your engineers can slap one together for practically free? Never mind if it sucks. It could have a future as a core for another OS, the way Apple did with using a BSD core on OS X, but only if its built into a coherent single package and marketed properly.

$324MM is a bargain. ACCESS could charge $1/device for the Palm compatability stack and they'll recover the entire cost of the Palm Source asset in two years.

This is grossly unrealistic. For one thing, you fail to account for the cost of maintaining the code, coders, accountants, and actually running the business that is PalmSource. For another, your idea of what PLinux smartphone sales would be is too high by a factor of sixty or seventy. Total world smartphone sales are only about 5 million a year. Even if you were to assume that PLinux tripled existing sales, you'd still be talking 20 years for return on investment under your $1 model, ignoring all costs.

For one thing, PLinux will be licensed at considerably more than $1 per unit. Besides which, you're forgetting that nobody paid $324 million for PLinux, they paid it for PalmSource. PSRC is a physical company, and as such they have value aside from their code. For instance, they have about $100 million in cash. They have offices, coders, connections, property, customers, license agreements, all sorts of things which are added to the total value of the company. So it's silly to argue that $324 million was paid exclusively for PalmLinux. I wouldn't be surprised of only about 10% of that number actually represented the value placed on PalmLinux as it stands now, which is quite reasonable.

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
svrontis @ 10/6/2005 4:09:48 AM # Q
Side-bar:

AdamaDBrown's comment about obsolete calculators reminded me that BY FAR the most useful calculator available for Palm devices is Abacus. It emulates almost all of the important financial & statistical functions of a HP-12C and it works with RPN. Beats the pants off anything else out there, but it hasn't been updated for a while - so it's obsolete - although it works just fine with my Treo 650.

I swear that if the developers ever port Abacus to Windows Docile, I might begin to consider the possibility of migrating to one of those devices. (Maybe.)

Please resume this interesting thread now ...

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
sr4 @ 10/6/2005 4:49:02 AM # Q

Pocket 12C Financial Calculator

Pocket 12C is an HP-12C Emulator for Your Pocket PC
- Looks like the HP-12C
- Feels like the HP-12C
- Thinks like the HP-12C
- Functions like the HP-12C
- And it does a few extras...
Features
- More than 130 built-in functions
- Supports both Algebraic and RPN data entry
- Stack window
- Window showing all of the financial registers
- Fully programmable. HP-12C syntax
- Normal Distribution
- Time Value of Money
- Cash flows analysis
- Amortization
- Bonds calculations
- Depreciations
- Odd period calculations
- Dates calculations
- Stats
- Math

http://microsoft.handango.com/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=75§ionId=0&catalog=0&productType=2&platformId=2&productId=28741

Basic software is present on both platforms. Its the exclusives that matter, not the actual number. Whats present in the POS library which is not on WM?

Surur

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
svrontis @ 10/6/2005 5:05:17 AM # Q
Thanks for the link.

Pocket 12C looks just like KK-12C - which (ingenuously) fits onto a 320 x 320 screen or can be used on larger screens in landscape mode. KK-12C is much more elaborate than Abacus, but I much prefer Abacus because it is so great for quick calcs (when checking a spreadsheet) due to the simplied UI.

There are other good Palm OS calculators out their too. My second favourite is RPN, which comes with various add-ons for financial and statistical functions.

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Timothy Rapson @ 10/6/2005 8:23:52 AM # Q
RE: "Basic software is present on both platforms. Its the exclusives that matter, not the actual number. Whats present in the POS library which is not on WM?

Surur"

Will you never cease expressing exactly what I would if I were a better debater?

Dr. This is my point. I don't care if Palm has 28,000 crappy photo apps, I want the full Resco Viewer that Resco offers for WinMob, not the crippled one for POS. I want the full Resco File not the one for POS. I want those other apps that are better than the POS ones all over the place.

Because POS doesn't offer the true graphics/fonts, the multi-tasking, and the high powered standard hardware they don't have those programs I want. Now, Plinux may get them.....someday. But even if a Plinux model with exactly the features I want shows up in late 2006, I will have to wait another year to get these high end programs that I could get right now on an Axim X50v. All because POS botched both Garnet and Cobalt. Now, I admit, POS thought of some pretty names and they even got new names for some fairly nice hardware in the past couple of years. I have much software for POS that I don't look forward to paying for all over again on a WinMob, but I would have to do all that for Plinux to get the new features supported and frankly I doubt that WordSmith is going to do a new Plinux version that matches TextMaker, or that Resco is going to do Plinux right away, or etc. etc. etc.

Pocket Calculator emulators?
orb2069 @ 10/6/2005 8:24:32 AM # Q
I've never understood why somebody with a full-blown computer in front of them would want to trudge along with a pocket calculator interface.

If you use something like http://easycalc.sourceforge.net/ , instead of having to frob around with emulated cryptic buttons, you can just key in the actual formula. (IE: You type 5^4, instead of [5][Y^x][4] or (3/4) instead of [3][A B/C][4] (Or is that [0][A B/C][3][A B/C][4]?)

If you've got a palm, give EasyCalc a try. It's pretty spiff, and it's GPL.

If you've got a WinCE thing, well, I'm sorry. Best of luck to you - I suggest you stop grinding your axe while there's still more metal on the handle than the stone.

1000->Personal->IRUpgrade->TRGPro->HE330->Treo 180->270

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
sr4 @ 10/6/2005 9:17:45 AM # Q

Shouldn't that be:

If you've got a WinCE thing, feel free to modify the source and recompile for your platform? Thats what Open Source is all about, isn't it?

or alternatively

If you've got a WinCE thing, feel free to run this under Styletap, where it should work admirably.

Surur

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
tthiel @ 10/6/2005 2:25:04 PM # Q
"cervezas @ 10/5/2005 7:11:08 PM #
Surer wrote:
...will also not help OEM/ODM's decide to design for POS.
You're not getting my point. A Moto acquisition most definitely would have helped OEM/ODM's to decide about this, but the decision would have been NO THANK YOU. Palm OS would become just an in-house toolkit for a company best known for its drab hardware and uninspired leadership."

We get your point. Your just wrong. Yeah the Razr and Q are drab. They can't make the Razr fast enough and people are salivating over the Q. Motos cell phone business in gneral is doing extremely well. Your also wrong about Motos Linux OS. Your looking at what they have now instead of what they are working on and is out in beta. In short you have no idea what your talking about.



RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Dr Opinion @ 10/6/2005 2:54:57 PM # Q
> "...Windows has ~20,000 apps, Symbian another 8,400. Palm has about 28,000."

Wrong.

Actually, according to, say, PalmGear, PocketGear, Palm has 28149 apps and wince has 19277. That's a difference of around 8872.

In addition, you will find that the wince figure is quite inflated for two reasons:

(1) Many wince apps are written only for specific devices, and are absolutely incompatible with others. This is considered "normal" on wince machines. Many require particular service packs, many require specific version of wince that were not released for all wince devices, many require specific hardware configurations. Wince apps that work accross all devices are the exception. By contract, Palm OS applications that *don't* work across all devices are the exception.

(2) This is almost a corollary to the first problem: many wince applications were written for older version of wince that simply don't exist any more. These apps count in the "19,277" number, yet are *truely* obsolete, in that there no longer exists any hardware that can run them.



------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Dr Opinion @ 10/6/2005 2:57:09 PM # Q
> "... I want the full Resco Viewer that Resco offers for WinMob, not the crippled one for POS. I want the full Resco File not the one for POS..."

Dude, this is just a really lame comment. No-one on the board cares about some random wince application that you personally prefer. There are more and better applications in every significant category that are available for the palm that for wince. This is because the Palm OS has more (and better) developers, a larger, more competitive economy, and developers are free to develop software without worrying if their innovation will be cloned by their operating system provider.

Your personal difficulty in adjusting to different applications is interesting, but it is certainly not relevant to the discussion of "which platform has the most/best applications".

The Palm OS has more and better applications. This is very well known, it is the personal experience of everyone who uses both devices, and all in all it is a very strange point to try to quibble about. :)



------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
SeldomVisitor @ 10/6/2005 3:06:21 PM # Q
What a bunch of sillies...

The average phone user wants phone, test messaging, calendar, organizer, camera, web browsing - now maybe audio, too.

That's about it.

They don't want nor need 24,000 applications.

Giggle.

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
sr4 @ 10/6/2005 3:08:54 PM # Q

Can some-one please NOT respond to D.O. He patently lives in an alternate reality where black is white and POS still rulez. He's not amenable to convincing or proof, and his claims are so outrageous (and obviously wrong) that he can only be making them intentionally.

In a word, he's trolling (I know, ironic that I say it, but at least I don't make false claims).

Don't feed the troll!

Surur

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
AdamaDBrown @ 10/6/2005 4:13:41 PM # Q
I swear that I shall stop feeding the troll soon. Really. Honest. He's just too much fun to whack with a stick. I haven't met anyone this out of touch with reality since... well, since the last time I argued politics with a member of the opposition party.

D.O. said:
Actually, according to, say, PalmGear, PocketGear, Palm has 28149 apps and wince has 19277. That's a difference of around 8872.

Okay let's start here. For one thing, you claimed that Palm OS "dominated" both Windows and Symbian put together. Do 400 applications of dubious functionality constitute "dominance?" In any event, you just made my point for me--you're grossly exaggerating the value of the number of programs. If you write five hundred stopwatch programs for one OS, and only two for another OS, does that mean the first OS is superior? Of course not--it just means that the first OS has more programs, implying nothing about usefulness.

(1) Many wince apps are written only for specific devices, and are absolutely incompatible with others.

This is patently wrong--not even incorrect, just wrong. You're either critically misinformed about the competition, or else you're lying.

This is considered "normal" on wince machines. Many require particular service packs, many require specific version of wince that were not released for all wince devices, many require specific hardware configurations. Wince apps that work accross all devices are the exception.

Still completely and totally wrong. A generic Windows application will run on any 2002, 2003, 2003SE, or 5.0 machine. A few applications get broken in an upgrade, but that happens on any platform. (Unless you want to pretend that the ~10% of Palm OS apps that didn't survive the upgrade from OS 3 to OS 4 never existed.)

In any event, I find it highly ironic that this is your defense, since recent PalmOS units require that you delete all your backups and install every program from scratch, testing for stability as you go. I've quite happily run programs on my Axim that haven't been updated for two years. My T5 and LifeDrive, on the other hand, went to pieces over programs that were only a few months of age.

(2) This is almost a corollary to the first problem: many wince applications were written for older version of wince that simply don't exist any more.

Actually, program compatibility is largely intact going back four major revisions. There are even still programs from PPC2000 that work fine.

These apps count in the "19,277" number, yet are *truely* obsolete, in that there no longer exists any hardware that can run them.

See note on PalmOS compatibility, particularly with regard to NVFS. The argument that you're making is actually against Palm.

Dude, this is just a really lame comment. No-one on the board cares about some random wince application that you personally prefer. There are more and better applications in every significant category that are available for the palm that for wince.

Really? Name the "better" replacements for the following applications. Textmaker. StyleTap. Resco File Explorer. uBook. Pocket RAR. PTvnc HiRes. There are others I can't remember off the top of my head, but that will do for now.

Regardless of the benefits of Palm OS, it's silly to argue that monochome calculator applications make the platform superior. PPC has an advantage on software power and on specs, which is why Palm keeps losing customers. The UI and the Treo can't stem the tide alone.

If you compare against the figures that were being tossed around 2-3 years ago, there have been ~9,000 new PalmOS apps written in the last 2 years, compared to ~16,000 written for PPC in the same timeframe. That would roughly correlate to the decline in Palm marketshare.

and developers are free to develop software without worrying if their innovation will be cloned by their operating system provider.

Yes, because god knows advancing the PalmOS certainly isn't the job of the people who make and sell it.

The Palm OS has more and better applications. This is very well known, it is the personal experience of everyone who uses both devices,

Obviously not. I use both, and I fully agree with Tim that there are PPC applications which are either superior to the Palm equivalents, or simply not available. Take a spin through the forums at PocketPCThoughts.com, and you'll see that the place is loaded with PalmOS defectors. Certainly they don't all think that they switched to an inferior platform, nor all the people here who have switched over the years. You've really got to stop treating mobile technology like it's a religion. The fanatical loyalty some people display to one OS or the other is simply remarkable. Not to mention the ability to completely shut out reality and blame anything they don't like on "the devil..." (to wit, the other side).

D.O., let me ask you this one simple questions, and you answer yes or no. Do you believe that Windows outsells Palm? Remember, yes or no.

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Timothy Rapson @ 10/6/2005 6:55:14 PM # Q
RE: "Dude, this is just a really lame comment. No-one on the board cares about some random wince application that you personally prefer. There are more and better applications in every significant category that are available for the palm that for wince. This is because the Palm OS has more (and better) developers, a larger, more competitive economy"

OK, I'm convinced. I guess I will buy that new TX instead of an Axim X50v for my next handheld. Now, what were the names of those programs that do for the POS what TextMaker, Pocket Artist, MyBible, Resco Photo Viewer, and Resco File Viewer do on an Axim?

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
svrontis @ 10/6/2005 9:46:55 PM # Q
Who is calling whom a troll?

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
svrontis @ 10/6/2005 9:46:55 PM # Q
This is brilliant. Who is calling whom a troll? Not even The Vat of Refuse can do comedy like that.

Defending PalmOS: Here's my position...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/6/2005 11:17:47 PM # Q
OK, I'm convinced. I guess I will buy that new TX instead of an Axim X50v for my next handheld. Now, what were the names of those programs that do for the POS what TextMaker, Pocket Artist, MyBible, Resco Photo Viewer, and Resco File Viewer do on an Axim?

Since the Palmyannas are sadly incapable of defending PalmOS, I'll have a go:

First off, I think most intelligent observers accept the position that PalmOS 5.xxx has been overextended FAR beyond what it could reasonably be expected to do. Furthermore, with a simplistic, non-multitasking architecture, obviously it has significant limitations. But within this framework - if properly implemented - users can do some pretty amazing things. Things that one would never have expected from a simple OS that hasn't evolved much from its Keep It Simple Stupid roots. One could argue that if PalmSource and Palm had bothered to hire competent coders, by now they could actually have created a version of PalmOS 5 that does 95% of what 95% of users need/want to do with a PDA/smartphone OS. I still think Palm/PalmSource should do whatever it takes to clean up the PalmOS 5 code, since if/WHEN PalmLinux fails to materialize (Cobalt-style), at least they would have a solid platform to soldier on with.

I'm about as hardcore a PDA user as there is on the planet, but even I'll have no problems using a 2003 vintage PalmOS PDA for the next several years. Besides not having VGA screens and real multitasking, I don't see any major limitations (hardware or software-wise) in sticking with my CLIE UX50/TH55/VZ90 weaponry (security blankets?) despite the flashy new Windows Mobile hardware now tempting longtime PalmOS users.

To address your specific software points, there are PalmOS apps that are FUNCTIONAL equivalents to MOST (not all) Windows Mobile apps. Are the Palm apps EXACTLY as "good" as the Windows Mobile versions? Of course not. But do the PalmOS apps get the job done with few - if any - significant compromises? Yes they do. Don't underestimate how clever programmers have been with PalmOS ("The Little OS That Could").

TextMaker -> Documents To Go, Quickword, etc.

Pocket Artist -> nothing even close (TealPaint is barely OK). But realistically, how critical is it to have an advanced drawing app on a PDA?

MyBible -> MyBible, etc.

Resco Photo Viewer -> AcidImage Pro, SplashPhoto, GrxView Pro, Resco Photo Viewer, etc.

Resco File Viewer -> McFile, FileMan, FileZ, TealMover, Resco Explorer, etc.

Yes, the Palm apps aren't as powerful as their desktop equivalents - or even their Windows Mobile equivalents - but for many, the BEST PalmOS apps are "good enough™" to get the job done on a PDA/smartphone. Like many, I view PDAs as an EXTENTION of my desktop/laptop - a tiny device that simply allows me to always have almost-instantaneous access to a ton of information. I generally want my PDA to DISPLAY (and sometimes EDIT)information that has previously been created on a desktop, rather than actually CREATING that information from scratch. I don't really care that I can't run Photoshop/AutoCAD/edit video/create high res animation/etc on my 4 ounce PDA! If I needed more powerful apps, I'd probably just get a tiny microlaptop that runs REAL Windows XP and uses REAL desktop apps. (The rumored upcoming Sony U series with a built-in keyboard might prove to be the perfect compromise between a functionally-limited PDA and a too-large laptop.

And the advantages of (pre-2005) PalmOS over Windows Mobile:
- Intuitive User Interface (Probably the main reason why I've stayed with PalmOS over the past 9 years.)
- Efficiency of code (Small, fast apps that do simple tasks well, without the bloat.)
- Ease of coding simple apps (but PalmOS is actually HARDER to code for than Windows Mobile if you want to create a complex app...)
- Familiarity (for longtime users)
- Stability (no longer an advantage on current PalmOS PDAs...)
- App library (now less of an advantage in 2005...)

Is this a rationalization of the limitations of PalmOS? Maybe. But can even PalmOS 5 be a useful OS for years to come? He11 yeah!

TVoR

(Of course, StyleTap Platform [www.styletap.com] makes it hard to justify why anyone would choose a NEW PalmOS device over a NEW Windows Mobile device. And once someone finally figures out how to run a PalmOS-type UI/shell on top of Windows Mobile AND incorporate StyleTap, PalmOS' raison d'ętre will cease to exist. At least I can still say that MY PalmOS hardware is actually "better" (quality, design, screen [VZ90] than anything yet seen in the Windows Mobile world. What reason do others (non-CLIE users) have for sticking with PalmOS hardware? None that I can see. I predict most current PalmOS users (and developers!) will not be as loyal to the platform as I am. PalmOS is in the process of getting Netscaped/WordPerfected right before our eyes. And Palm/PalmSource have no one to blame for the platform's demise but themselves.

What a waste of a great platform. It's sad to see things end this way...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 2:34:27 AM # Q
> "...In a word, he's trolling..."

How can I be trolling?

I'm on a palm site commenting on wince, an irrelevant (and soon to be obsolete) platform. I may be wacky, I may be controversial, I may even (god forbid) be right. I cannot, however be trolling. :)

Moron.



------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 2:36:51 AM # Q
> "..One could argue that [palm could] have created a version of PalmOS 5 that does 95% of what 95% of users need/want to do with a PDA/smartphone OS.."

Since Palm owns 95% of the smartphone business, we really, *really*, absolutely, truely could say that PalmOS 5 does what 95% of users want/need.

It's astonishing you've not noticed this obvious fact.

And since your entire argument rests on some irrelevant fantasy universe where palm doesn't dominate the smartphone market, we can just ignore the rest of your silly and boring rant.

Goodnight. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
sr4 @ 10/7/2005 2:59:04 AM # Q
Since Palm owns 95% of the smartphone business, we really, *really*, absolutely, truely could say that PalmOS 5 does what 95% of users want/need.

Nurse, some-one missed their medication today.

Surur



Even Surur thinks Voice-of-Dumness needs to STFU
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 3:01:36 AM # Q
> "...Nurse, some-one missed their medication today...."

Well, when the micro$uck shills start taking cheap potshots at each other, well, I guess that's a sign the wince community really is collapsing. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Ryan: Jeff Kirvin does not appear to be... right in the head
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/7/2005 5:13:58 AM # Q
> "...Nurse, some-one missed their medication today...."

Well, when the micro$uck shills start taking cheap potshots at each other, well, I guess that's a sign the wince community really is collapsing. :)

Ryan, Kirvin has become absolutely incoherent in the past week or so here at PIC. And based on the comments I've heard attributed to him from other sites, he's completely out of control. Is he OK? Did he get fired and just start to decompensate? It's actually sad seeing Kirvin make a fool of himself like this. He's basically destroyed any illusion that people may have had that he had any idea what he was talking about.

I'm all for freedom of speech, but he realy needs to start taking responsibility for his words and stop spewing the bizarre stream of consciousness drivel that's become par for the course for him lately.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Classic PIC moment
cervezas @ 10/7/2005 8:32:36 AM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Ryan: Jeff Kirvin does not appear to be... right in the head...but he realy needs to start taking responsibility for his words and stop spewing the bizarre stream of consciousness drivel that's become par for the course for him lately.

Only on PalmInfocenter. Should someone call Nurse Ratchet about these two?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Strider_mt2k @ 10/7/2005 9:25:19 AM # Q
Obsession anyone?

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
sr4 @ 10/7/2005 11:39:22 AM # Q

I notice your polite question to JK about why a noob would choose WM vs POS Treo or otherwise did not really recieve much of an answer, and was soon swallowed up by Jeff Kirvining himself again.

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98063&page=1&pp=15

I suggest that if you want enlightening debate 1src is not the place to look. There is even a better conversation going in the forums of treocentral than in the 1src playpen.

Surur

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
twizza @ 10/7/2005 1:01:09 PM # Q
Hey yall; nice convo. Just want to step in some:
VOR: nice to see ya back. Beyond the character callouts, you really do spit well.

Palm doesnt own the smartphone market but only in mindshare, and thats only because its a default to the BB as a device of choice in the corporate arena. WM5 gives Palm, and in an indirect way, the PalmOS a bit more light to shine under. But as noted, Garnet cannot fulfill that light and there needs to be better NOW not later.

PalmLinux WILL and HAS gotten attention on potential. Think "potential" as a high schooler being drafted #1 in the NBA. Its all about potential. The only problem, whereas most high schoolers would get 3 or 4 years to show their wares, a #1 pick only gets one, maybe two years. Espousing this to PalmLinux, there is one shot and one shot only to do this well. And they dont have 2 years. It needs to make a distinct impression ASAP for the viabilty of the platform. Moto and others are interested becaue of this potential, but also because if it flops, they have the dev experience to take what failed and make something propritery (sp?) that will sell (in a limited fashion).

I am currently reviewing a PalmOS naked Qool QDA-700 for BargainPDA. It is quite clear that Garnet was NOT able to serve as a mobile phone OS. So much so that even the limited pieces that Qool added, were just in a launcher over the OS. The Treo EXTENDED the PalmOS. Unless PalmSource/Access can show that ability to EXTEND and not PATCH over thier licensees' advances, PalmLinux will flop and flop hard. Again, its all about potential. The potential is there, but like all draft pics, you only get one chance to make a first impression. After that you are either riding the pine as an insignifant player, or out of the league with mental issues.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
LiveFaith @ 10/7/2005 1:59:56 PM # Q
Well, it looks like M$ has mistakenly leaked the 2nd Treo running WM now. If Palm does not produce a Palm OS version like this 800w, then I would say they are totally shifting to Windows Media.
This 800w may make me switch, regardless of whether Plinux arrives or not. Beautiful! :-D

http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28865

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 3:57:37 PM # Q
> "...TVoR wrote [...] Jeff Kirvin [blah, 1source, blah, Jeff Kirvin, blah, 1source, blah, Jeff Kirvin, blah, 1source, blah]..."

OK, I have a really good conspiracy theory. :)

Voice-of-Dumbness *IS* actually Jeff Kirving, and he's pretending to take the credit for my fantastic arguments just to get brownie points for his own site.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd never even *heard* of 1source until Voice-of-Dumbness kept going on about it... Think about it... how many of you guys actually *first* *heard* of 1source from Voice-of-Dumbness on PIC????

See? Kirving gets loads of free publicity for his 1source, and Ryan doesn't delete the forum-spam advertising a competitor because Voice-of-Dumbness pretends to be *bitching* like a stuck record... :)

Makes you think, right? :D

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Jeff Kirvin: Get help, Bubba.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/7/2005 9:57:24 PM # Q
It's embarassing see you make a fool of yourself like this.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Timothy Rapson @ 10/7/2005 10:14:52 PM # Q
Nope, I guess Dr. O (whom I begin to think is probably just VOR anyway) doesn't have that list of apps I want to advance my PDA use.

RE VOR "Yes, the Palm apps aren't as powerful as their desktop equivalent"

Right, and I happen to want real time spell checking, truetype fonts in many apps, rather than just WordSmith, a photo program (OK, AcidImage and Resco viewer are good, but just no where near RV on WinMob) that allows me to actually edit the pictures, a Bible program that allows me to copy parts to my word processor for writing sermons without having to take just one or two verses at a time, a real file program that supports all kinds of folders and works system-wide, etc.

It is not that the programs are not as powerful as my desktop equivalents, it is that they are not even near as powerful as the WinMob competitors are. But, perhaps it is the same thing. TextMaker is as powerful as OpenOffice text editing is. Pocket Artist is as powerful as many desktop drawing programs. Resco file is as powerful as Windows Explorer. Still didn't mention real pdfs. Too hard, I guess, all that thinking. Or maybe there just isn't the software for the Zire to keep me satisfied as there likely is on WinMob.
Like most, I can keep my old Zire 72 and still do all the work I have done, but I want more and Palm is not offering it. Simply not. I may not speak for anyone else, but for me that is the bottom line. You can keep your TH55 and DTG until you find some one killer app that you can't do without as I once did with my desktops. But, I have the resources to move ahead and I will do so with or without POS.

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
svrontis @ 10/7/2005 11:31:41 PM # Q
The Vat of Refuse, congratulations for winning the Nobel Prize for Comedy? Bozo.

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Dr Opinion @ 10/8/2005 12:00:15 AM # Q
> "...Dr. O (whom I begin to think is probably just VOR anyway)..."

That's ridiculous. Have you guys actually seen Voice-of-Dumness? I'm *much* better looking. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
cervezas @ 10/8/2005 12:07:39 AM # Q
Dr. O (whom I begin to think is probably just VOR anyway)

Sure is looking like it. Whenever things go badly for VoR he/she apparently uses one of his/her alter egos to either cheer VoR on (benamy) or just pay attention when no one else will (Dr. O). Seems to be somebody who really needs a friend.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Dr Opinion @ 10/8/2005 12:13:33 AM # Q
There was some poor deranged guy on here a while back who said that he had migrated to wince becuase he wanted a word processor with truetype, a photo program that could edit photos, and a bible program that allowed cut and paste.

I felt sorry for that guy. I really did. But what could I do? If I gave him cash, he'd just spend it on 40s... or worse. That's the great tragedy of the American dream, all the people with serious psychological problems that fall through the cracks. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Get Help Bubba
rcartwright @ 10/8/2005 12:17:56 AM # Q
Voice,

Talk about needing help. VoR, you see Jeff Kirvin everywhere. You are obsessed.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

Needy Palm users
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/8/2005 1:40:39 AM # Q
Nope, I guess Dr. O (whom I begin to think is probably just VOR anyway)

I thought you were smarter than that, Timothy. Now you acting as clueless as Beersy and the other Palmyannas that are scurrying around here like a bunch of c0ckroaches.

doesn't have that list of apps I want to advance my PDA use.

Kirvin might not have a list of alternates, but I provided one that would satisfy most people that use PalmOS PDAs. In your case, it's obvious that you'll never be satisfied with any Palm equivalents, so you'd be better served by simply moving on to Windows Mobile and never looking back. As always, users need to figure out what their priorities are and choose platforms accordingly. Most of us here prefer the advantages of the PalmOS UI and - with little effort - are able to find apps that allow us to do almost everything one could reasonably want a PDA to do. If you need more and feel Windows Mobile provides it, why not just make the switch to WinMob and stop whining about how PalmOS doesn't meet your (extreme) demands?

RE VOR "Yes, the Palm apps aren't as powerful as their desktop equivalent"

Right, and I happen to want real time spell checking, truetype fonts in many apps, rather than just WordSmith, a photo program (OK, AcidImage and Resco viewer are good, but just no where near RV on WinMob) that allows me to actually edit the pictures, a Bible program that allows me to copy parts to my word processor for writing sermons without having to take just one or two verses at a time, a real file program that supports all kinds of folders and works system-wide, etc.

Again, you want a lot of things that most PalmOS users seem to not mind doing without. Sure it would be nice to have a truly multitasking version of PalmOS, but we don't have one. While I've argued that PalmOS could/should have been improved a LONG time ago to the point that it could replicate almost all of the functionality of a desktop, the Cobalt miscue destroyed that possibility, possibly forever.

It is not that the programs are not as powerful as my desktop equivalents, it is that they are not even near as powerful as the WinMob competitors are. But, perhaps it is the same thing. TextMaker is as powerful as OpenOffice text editing is. Pocket Artist is as powerful as many desktop drawing programs. Resco file is as powerful as Windows Explorer. Still didn't mention real pdfs. Too hard, I guess, all that thinking. Or maybe there just isn't the software for the Zire to keep me satisfied as there likely is on WinMob.

PalmOS apps also usually don't have all the features that Windows Mobile apps have. But Windows Mobile apps don't have all the features that Windows XP apps have, and I don't see this preventing users from getting good use out of their Windows Mobile devices as PDAs. Remember, these devices are used by most people as an EXTENSION of their desktop/laptop rather than a REPLACEMENT of their desktop/laptop. Picsel works fine with PDFs on my CLIEs. Too bad you can't use it. Timothy, I don't think you realize that no one really cares that you can't find apps that will turn a Zire into a Windows Mobile device. Your demands are so extreme that I doubt more than a small fraction of 1% of PalmOS users would be as "needy" as you are. For everyone else, a fully optimized PalmOS could get the job done quite nicely.

Like most, I can keep my old Zire 72 and still do all the work I have done, but I want more and Palm is not offering it. Simply not. I may not speak for anyone else, but for me that is the bottom line. You can keep your TH55 and DTG until you find some one killer app that you can't do without as I once did with my desktops. But, I have the resources to move ahead and I will do so with or without POS.

As I said before, "users need to figure out what their priorities are and choose platforms accordingly." My CLIEs already do everything I need a PDA to do. While multitasking, VoIP, built-in cellphone radio, etc would be nice, I can do without them. If you truly NEED a feature PalmOS can't/won't provide, it's time for you to MOVE ON to a platform that suits those "needs".


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

PalmLinux is VAPORWARE
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/8/2005 5:40:42 AM # Q
Voice,

Talk about needing help. VoR, you see Jeff Kirvin everywhere. You are obsessed.


"I see dead people."

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Palm Apologist c0ckroaches are in the PIC house!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/8/2005 5:48:34 AM # Q
Beersy, svrontis, Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin and rcartwright... four little monkeys furiously flinging feces. Alone they are weak; united, their Kung Fu is pathetic...

Looks like the only one missing is the late BubbaSteve.

It's a shame these Palm Apologists all lack the COJONES and the INTELLIGENCE to engage in a proper debate about the real issues. Keep up the puerile attacks, Kiddies. Doing so only reinforces how clueless the five of you are.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
cervezas @ 10/8/2005 11:06:53 AM # Q
It's a shame these Palm Apologists all lack the COJONES and the INTELLIGENCE to engage in a proper debate about the real issues. Keep up the puerile attacks, Kiddies.

What's to debate on this thread? We're just laughing at you and your little friend "Dr. Opinion". I'm sorry, but it's just hard to resist poking you and watching you spin and froth.

If you want to debate then give us an issue and we'll debate, but most of the time "peurile attacks" is all we ever get from you. The same BORING ones over and over, BTW.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Voice of Reason-NOT
rcartwright @ 10/8/2005 3:45:11 PM # Q
You know all these attacks are just further indications of the creeping mental illness. Delusions, paranoia, lashing out. Its sad really.

Of counse thats the problem with any attempt at a reational debate with you. Anything intellegent you say is drowned out by the nutcase personal attacks.

Its ironic that all of the "little kids" at 1SRC can actually show far more maturity and class that some of the "adults" at PIC.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
Timothy Rapson @ 10/8/2005 9:04:05 PM # Q
I still miss anonymous posting here at PIC.
I AM wondering, now that I think of it, I have never seen Superman, Clark Kent, Dr. O, and VOR in the same room at the same time. Anyway, VOR is a bright and fact-armed debater.

It is true that I use my Zire very hard. I am away from a computer 10+ hours a day and want a complete desktop replacement in my pocket. When I started with my Clie (Yes, VOR, I have the Clie gene. I gave it up when I was stiffed by Sony with their ditching all their promises of useful sized memory sticks.) I was happy to see WordSmith that was the equal or better than any PPC app. MyBible was good enough and I hoped for real improvements. Most of all, the OS itself was far quicker and more stable than the PPC II I had on my mono Ipaq.
The WinMob option has gotten better and better, while the POS situation has worsened in OS stability and the POS software and hardware are not advancing at all on the POS side. You know yourself that the TH55 is the best hardware POS is ever likely to see. The very latest Palm T X is no match for that TH55.

Anyway, my point to Dr. O. stands. Whether POS now or Plinux to come, the best option if you want the BEST software is WinMob. I want the best. In general, I post my won personal views here. I hang around to find out what would make the best purchases for myself, not to gauge the market or make some graniose judgements or debate platforms in the abstract.

Windows Mobile Vs. PalmOS apps: Palm WINS.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/10/2005 3:13:39 PM # Q
I still miss anonymous posting here at PIC.
I AM wondering, now that I think of it, I have never seen Superman, Clark Kent, Dr. O, and VOR in the same room at the same time. Anyway, VOR is a bright and fact-armed debater.

Yes, no one can claim to have ever seen TVoR, Clark Kent and Superman together in the same room at the same time. Draw your own conclusions...

It is true that I use my Zire very hard. I am away from a computer 10+ hours a day and want a complete desktop replacement in my pocket. When I started with my Clie (Yes, VOR, I have the Clie gene. I gave it up when I was stiffed by Sony with their ditching all their promises of useful sized memory sticks.) I was happy to see WordSmith that was the equal or better than any PPC app. MyBible was good enough and I hoped for real improvements. Most of all, the OS itself was far quicker and more stable than the PPC II I had on my mono Ipaq.
The WinMob option has gotten better and better, while the POS situation has worsened in OS stability and the POS software and hardware are not advancing at all on the POS side. You know yourself that the TH55 is the best hardware POS is ever likely to see. The very latest Palm T X is no match for that TH55.

Can you explain what limitations you're experiencing with the PalmOS version of Laridian's (overpriced) app? Memory Sticks are now up to 2 GB. Hideously overpriced, but at least the size is available. To be honest, I think the European TH55 (the one with Bluetooth) is as close to being a perfect traditional form factor PalmOS PDA as we'll ever see. Besides an OLED screen and a cell phone radio, I can't think of too much else I would add to it. You might want to look at the VZ90 (OLED screen, monster battery, dual CompactFlash + Memory Stick, Wi-Fi) if you want to stick with PalmOS. Otherwise I think the writing's on the wall - you will NEVER see another well made PalmOS PDA released, so in your case Windows Mobile + StyleTap Platform makes a lot of sense. .

Anyway, my point to Dr. O. stands. Whether POS now or Plinux to come, the best option if you want the BEST software is WinMob. I want the best. In general, I post my won personal views here. I hang around to find out what would make the best purchases for myself, not to gauge the market or make some graniose judgements or debate platforms in the abstract.

Windows Mobile has "the best" software? That's debatable. For me, "the best" means having a fast, intuitive interface, with most of the features I need and not a lot of the features I don't need. I hope PalmOS apps never see the bloat that has struck apps like Microsoft Word - so many "features" that it's overly-complicated and doing simple things actually can become harder than they otherwise should be. Yes WinMob apps are more fully featured than their PalmOS equivalents, but I'll take PalmOS in most cases. Also, PalmOS has a lot of unique apps from "hobby" coders that you'll never see on WinMob.

It's all about what matters most to you: "featuritis" or simplicity/elegance.

*Compare DateBk5 Vs Pocket Informant for an idea of what I mean about why PalmOS apps are are actally "better".


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
sr4 @ 10/10/2005 4:19:02 PM # Q

Ease of use is overrated. I drive a manual car as I get better fuel economy and I feel in greater control of my acceleration etc. Ease of use is one thing, but when the one feature you need is missing all the ease of use and intuitiveness in the world wont make up for it.

Its that old 20:80 chestnut. Its just that everybody's 20% used features are different. I'd rather have too many options than miss the one I need to do the job.

Surur

RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
hkklife @ 10/10/2005 4:28:25 PM # Q
At least 2gb SD card prices are plummeting. I just got one for a hair over $100 shipped. No-name, yes, but Sandisk hasn't excatly been lighting the world on fire lately so I figured I didn't have much to lose.

When 4gb CF & SD cards are widely available for <$150ish, I think I'll really have no reason to worry about storage space at all. Then the LifeDrive will really look like a bad dream that never shoulda happened.



RE: This gives Palm Linux a huge amount of credibility
cervezas @ 10/10/2005 4:49:23 PM # Q
surer wrote:
Ease of use is overrated....Its that old 20:80 chestnut. Its just that everybody's 20% used features are different. I'd rather have too many options than miss the one I need to do the job.

That may make sense for you, but for the average user too many options makes the whole thing unusable. I don't think most of us hear have any idea the extent to which this is true.

I sometimes thing that what is missing in the mobile space is a platform that can be configured by a value-added device reseller (not the user and not Palm) to target the 80:20 mix for particular classes of users, like realtors or doctors. Hardware bundled together with tightly integrated software suites that hide most of the stuff that class of user doesn't need. A lot of the work would need to be done in the launcher, which would be more like a heads-up display of frequently executed tasks than a generic application launcher.

Most people here would hate a device like this! But there are millions of people who don't currently use a smartphone or PDA but might be persuaded if they could see how it was made "just for them."



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

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PSRC just released their 10Q and...

SeldomVisitor @ 10/6/2005 10:14:39 AM # Q
...it just deepens the mystery about why ACCESS was willing to pay so much for them.

PALM is an 82+% source of PSRC's revenue.

Maybe that should read "PALM ==was== an 82% source of PSRC's revenue"...

So weird.

I'm waiting for that other shoe to drop for sure.

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
sr4 @ 10/6/2005 10:38:55 AM # Q
If they had not been bought, I wonder what the combination of that and Palm's move to WM would have done to their share price.

Surur

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
SeldomVisitor @ 10/6/2005 10:52:54 AM # Q
They haven't been bought yet.

[I'm gonna reread PSRC's words about the PALM/MSFT hookup - that hookup (info about it) may not have been part of any Bid War negotiation]

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
hkklife @ 10/6/2005 10:53:43 AM # Q
That combination would've been a dagger to PalmSource. That said, had PalmSource not been bought out, they probably could've persuaded Palm to postpone their announcement w/ Verizon & M$ until closer to year's end.

I'm honestly surprised to see Palm accounting for JUST 82% of their revenue. Sony's remaining residual payments and the handful of remaining licensees (mostly on paper) aside, where do the recenue streams come from other than Palm & LG? I doubt the PalmSource Software Connection online store is doing huge business right now...

On a semi-related note, I think VZW is looking to eliminate the POS completely in their smartphone offerings. Why? Well, their cellphones are moving to a uniform "Verizon" UI. I think it's based on the recent LG UI and it has the red bars onscreen. I know the CDMA RAZR is going to use it as will all other VZW phones coming later this year and '06. They want to minimize customer confusion when changing phones/upgrading. So that eliminate VZW's PHONES. And their handhelds? A lot easier to standardize on a uniform UI (or at least a launcher/set of icons) when you're entirely WinMob based and not having a rogue FrankenGarnet device along your WinMob offerings. Just a thought.



RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 11:15:16 AM # Q
I'm honestly surprised to see Palm accounting for JUST 82% of their revenue.

Yeah, me too. I don't understand why this is some big surprise.

I also don't understand why it deepens some kind of "mystery" about the Access buyout. Access knew they were bidding against Palm (among others) for ownership of PalmSource. What more evidence did they need that Palm was committed to Palm OS (on top of Palm's $148M license renewal, their hiring of a slew of Linux engineers, repeated public statements, yada yada)? Palm has publically expressed their pleasure (relief, really) that ACCESS managed to win the bid over the company we now know was Motorola. Why would they have cared, why would they have bid $262M themselves for PalmSource, if they didn't have long-term plans for Palm OS?

That's the question that no one has answered yet. Until someone does, why do we keep acting like Palm plans to ditch the Palm OS?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
SeldomVisitor @ 10/6/2005 12:14:27 PM # Q
You state too many things as fact when they are mere speculation.

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
KultiVator @ 10/6/2005 12:53:57 PM # Q
> You state too many things as fact when they are mere speculation.

Not sure exactly who that remark is aimed at - but you're bang on the money with a chunky proportion of the posts here.

Opinion and speculation are often passed off as fact by some of the biggest egos in any of the online communities I visit.

It's a shame, because Gekko, Surur and others (you know who you are!) can make really good contributions at times, but more often than not, let themselves down with crass contrived drivel instead.

Shame on them, as they are obviously quite bright and enthusiastic about technology. But I guess it's easier to label something as being 'crap', than it is to give balanced arguments or be constructive.

You can't blame them for taking the easy way out.

Got A Gripe? Got Strong Feelings? Get 'em Out. Get 'em Aired & Get 'em KultiVated.

But a fact is a fact and an opinion is something altogether different.



RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
Sam H @ 10/6/2005 1:47:36 PM # Q
Why would they have cared, why would they have bid $262M themselves for PalmSource, if they didn't have long-term plans for Palm OS?

Palm had long-term plans for a Palm OS they owned. Until they know what ACCESS's vision for Palm OS is, they can't make any long-term plans for Palm OS at all.

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
tthiel @ 10/6/2005 2:34:03 PM # Q
"Maybe they should go back and study some of those old case studies themselves. I don't know, I'm not a big Moto-watcher and it's true things seem to have improved since Zander came in, but they've definitely been playing a catch-up game when it comes to the whole concept of converged devices."

Motos stock has gone up 29% this year, they are doing quite well with their current crop of cellphones and they do alot more than make cellphones.

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
Dr Opinion @ 10/6/2005 2:47:19 PM # Q
> "...had PalmSource not been bought out, they probably could've persuaded Palm to postpone their announcement w/ Verizon & M$ until closer to year's end..."

That's a stupid comment!

wince-Treo definitely doesn't cannabalize Palm Source revenue. Duh! :)

Some people (MCSEs and the poor misguided folks they advise) will be happy to endure the cludgy wince experience, but those people are *extra* revenue for Palm, not *lost* revenue for PalmSource.

Remember, the people who are so indoctrinated into wince that they would buy a wince-Treo are the SAME people that *wouldn't* have bought a Treo otherwise.

This is obvious. If these same people would have bought Treo's with Palm OS on it, Palm wouldn't need to release a wince-Treo.

I mean, duh. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 2:59:41 PM # Q
SamH wrote:
Palm had long-term plans for a Palm OS they owned. Until they know what ACCESS's vision for Palm OS is, they can't make any long-term plans for Palm OS at all.

With that I agree. I suspect those conversations between ACCESS and Palm began very shortly after ACCESS won the bidding war--maybe even before Palm decided to back out of the bidding, if you catch my drift.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC just released another proxt and...
SeldomVisitor @ 10/6/2005 3:03:13 PM # Q
...in it they explicitly mention Motorola.

The stock price skyrocketed at the release but THIS reader didn't see anything particularly interesting OTHER than the Motorola mention (which non-geeks probably didn't know!). I think the price will correct back down again soon.

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 3:29:15 PM # Q
PSRC just released another proxt

Is proxt some kind of lingo that should be obvious even to half-wits like myself?

Anyway, do you have a link?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
SeldomVisitor @ 10/6/2005 4:00:38 PM # Q
Nah - a half-wit like you should know that folks like me type too fast for our fingers and sometimes hit adjaent keys but don't care, figuring the message is worth more than the medium.

Here's an unbowlderized link:

http://tinyurl.com/c9nw2

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 11:02:45 PM # Q
Actually some interesting stuff in that "proxt" of yours, Seldom. It looks to me that if Moto wanted to come back with a counter-offer between now and Nov 14 there's nothing ACCESS could do to stop PalmSource's directors from accepting it. PalmSource would simply owe to ACCESS roughly the same termination fee Motorola is currently claiming from them. So by pressing it's claim (assuming they've got a decent case) Moto is effectively eroding the financial incentive for PalmSource to stay committed to the ACCESS merger and instead to talk with Moto.

This really could be interesting over the next month.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
cervezas @ 10/7/2005 12:47:43 AM # Q
tthiel wrote:
Motos stock has gone up 29% this year, they are doing quite well with their current crop of cellphones and they do alot more than make cellphones.

Sure I agree there has been improvement. My comment was about their reputation, which is still pretty tarnished. Unfortunately, the way they got totally walked over by Apple with the ROKR doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. The idea of a music-oriented phone was great and doing it with Apple should have made it a slam dunk. Instead the general response has been disappointment from users over the long delays and severe storage limitations and embarrassing defensiveness from Zander.

As far as Motorola's Linux plans, I'm sure based on the level of energy they've put into their Linux division over the last couple years that they have ambitious plans for the future. And yes, I'm sure their Linux phones will run native Linux apps in the future, not just MIDP stuff. The problem is PalmSource is years ahead on this part of the platform and it comes with a large loyal following. Motorola knows they can't reproduce this easily or they wouldn't have made such a generous acquisition offer.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PSRC just released their 10Q and...
hkklife @ 10/7/2005 12:07:48 PM # Q
Moto is KIND OF (use the analogy loosely) like Palm.

They often bungle things the first time around (or simply have slightly subpar specs/design quirks) but then refine it greatly for the 2nd generation. Then they end up with near perfection the 3rd generation and usually move on to an entirely new design.

Examples are:

The original TAC "brick" phones

The Micro-Tac(s)

The StarTac(s)

V60 series

RAZR (great design first time around but better specs for #2)

V710-->815

MPX Smartphone-->Q



Reply to this comment

Kirvinism in action

sr4 @ 10/6/2005 6:43:55 PM # Q
Now we know a kirvin is a person who is an apologist who is constantly having to change his story due to his cause changing direction, right.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kirvin

Well, in his latest podcast Jeff has been making the case that Palm is a VAR, and as such they NEED to have multiple OS's, else they would be under the thumb of their supplier. (This is mainly to explain why Palm would hang on to POS even while using WM).

Little did he know how quickly he would be contradicted by his inconstant master, Palm Inc.

"While Palm looks set to continue shipping Palm OS 5 handhelds for the near future, Wirt admitted there would have to be a cut-off point. "At some point in the future, we would obviously prefer to be on one platform," he (Kent Writ, Palm Europe) said."

http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/analysis/2143406/sight-palm

When challenged with this evidence Kirvin splutters "When I stop trembling with rage, I might have a coherent answer for you."

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=858098#post858098

Another Kervinism caught in action.

Surur

RE: Kirvinism in action
cervezas @ 10/6/2005 9:37:31 PM # Q
That's beautiful Surer. I like the way you managed to completely reverse the meaning of Wirt's statement by pulling it out of context.

If you read the article we have the following:

Ken Wirt, senior vice-president of marketing, said his firm was waiting for PalmSource to port the Palm environment to Linux before moving away from Palm OS 5. Wirt said, "We're very optimistic about Linux...."

Then we have:

He said that there were no plans to produce Windows Mobile PDAs. "It will take us about a year to build a product on Palm OS for Linux after they come out with it," Wirt added.

and then finally we have:

While Palm looks set to continue shipping Palm OS 5 handhelds for the near future, Wirt admitted there would have to be a cut-off point. "At some point in the future, we would obviously prefer to be on one platform," he said.

So with regard to handhelds: no Windows Mobile, a big yes to Palm OS for Linux, and no more Garnet once the Linux transition is complete.

It's great to hear Palm confirming their Palm Linux plans so clearly but it would have been nice if Wirt had commented directly about this in connection with the Treos. All we have is the dumb*ss reporter speculating that "it seems unlikely that any further Palm OS Treos will be developed" while stating the obvious that Garnet won't be good enough for 3G handsets, as if this was some kind of proof of that.

So, SamH... what was that you said this afternoon about how Palm "can't make any long-term plans for Palm OS at all"? Sorry we didn't have some money on that one. It would have been a quick buck indeed.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Kirvinism in action
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 2:48:47 AM # Q
> "...Palm is a VAR, and as such they NEED to have multiple OS's..."

That's a stupid comment.

As I've explained elsewhere, Palm definitely didn't need create a wince-Treo if wince-lovers could have been persuaded to by a real Treo with the Palm OS.

The fact that these (ignorant) wince fanatics could not be persuaded to buy the best smartphone on the market unless it ran wince proves without a doubt that the wince-Treo represents INCREMENTAL revenue for palm, and absolutely does not reduce the number of real Palm OS Treos sold.

Therefore, it is a good thing that m$ paid Palm to develop the wince Treo and is now giving Palm the wince "OS" for free. And there is absolutely no downside for Palm or PalmSource/ACCESS.

You seem a bit slow, so I don't mind if you have trouble understanding this. Just let me know if you need me to repeat it in words with one syllable. :)



------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Kirvinism in action
sr4 @ 10/7/2005 2:49:34 AM # Q

You are missing the point, which is the kirvinism in action. Jeff is going to have to change his story again now, to how WM5 is just a transitional OS, like Garnet 5.0, meant only to last until the next gen OS comes on line. What happened to being the OS-agnostic VAR?

The amount of times Jeff has to change his line makes my head spin.

Surur

RE: Kirvinism in action
Dr Opinion @ 10/7/2005 2:56:35 AM # Q
> "...makes my head spin..."

Don't worry, mate. Someone has to be the slow one. Just take it easy, and try and keep up. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

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