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Comments on: Palm OS Not Near End of Life

updated The article in question has been pulled. It is clear the article misquoted statements made by Access. PalmSource continues to support current versions of Palm OS while developing Palm OS for Linux.
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Cobalt is a dream now

neuron @ 10/21/2005 3:08:10 PM # Q
The last hope of reviving Cobalt is gone now.
Amen.

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
bsquare @ 10/21/2005 3:18:42 PM # Q

Technically, you can't "revive" something that wasn't alive in the frist place.


RE: Cobalt is a dream now or is it?
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 5:26:43 PM # Q
Some one please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the problem with Coblat though is that it PalmOS-Protein API program is built for pure a Cobalt device, and thus NEEDs to be recompiled for Cobalt over Linux system. That is to say, Cobalt program and COL one are not binary compatible. This will probably prevent PalmOS licensees, especially Palm. Inc, from releasing any pure Cobalt device. Otherwise, they must deal with the INCOMPATIBILITY issue when customers upgrade from a pure Cobalt device to a COL one. However, Linux program CAN run on Cobalt over Linux if it has no UI or if the developer ports its UI part to Cobalt. However one possible solution for devs though is to just continue support 68k apps since PACE should be supported on both Cobalt and PL?

What I wonder though is how long Palm keeps juggin along with frankengarnet? In the short, will Palm just continue it's experimentation with WM Treo etc until PL arrives. The wild card is how long can Palm stretch out frankengarnet in these next two years? Can they wait that long? Could there be some short term advantage of using Cobalt in the interim?

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
Foo Fighter @ 10/21/2005 6:13:11 PM # Q
>> "In the short, will Palm just continue it's experimentation with WM Treo etc until PL arrives."

I expect Palm to integrate Windows Mobile in its handheld line starting early next year. My bet is that WinMob will replace PalmOS on Palm's high-end devices like LifeDrive and business-centric products. The market has shifted to Windows Mobile, and Palm isn't going to continue basing its entire product line on a declining platform segment just for kicks.

Palm Linux won't matter even when it does arrive. The market has already decided what it wants.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 6:21:41 PM # Q
>>>>Palm Linux won't matter even when it does arrive. The market has already decided what it wants.

It has? So that would mean the Symbain is the OS the market wants for smartphones right?

The truth is that we are still in a very early stage of a huge land rush in the burgeoning feature phone and smartphone markets. Symbain has the lead right now, but that is in no way garranteed in the future. There are three major platforms competing in this market: Symbian, WM, and Linux (with Palm Linux as possbile subset). WM has hardly won anything here yet...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
Foo Fighter @ 10/21/2005 6:27:36 PM # Q
No, the market has decided it likes NOKIA. Consumers are buying Symbian for the PHONE (Nokia) not the OS. Most consumers don't even know what the hell they're using. As a Nokia user what OS is on their phone, then stand back and watch the vacant look on their face.

Also, word is that Nokia is planning on moving to Linux.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
Dr Opinion @ 10/21/2005 8:51:32 PM # Q
> "...I expect Palm to integrate Windows Mobile in its handheld line starting early next year..."

Despite the fact that Palm's CEO has explicitly said that they will not do this. DO you realize that CEOs of public companies are not allowed to lie about big stuff like that? :)

> "...My bet is that WinMob will replace PalmOS on Palm's high-end devices like LifeDrive and business-centric products..."

There is a bell-curve describing the distribution of IQs. Apparently you're solidly propping up the bottom end. :)

> "...The market has shifted to Windows Mobile..."

That's simply absurd. Wince has a tiny installed base, fewer good applications, and while some current devices might be comparable with the top of the line Palm OS devices in some respects, the horrific problems users are having with the new wince version are certainly not going to win over any converts. On the contrary... wince users will be flocking to the TX just to get some stability (and the ability to hotsync properly). :)

> "...Palm isn't going to continue basing its entire product line on a declining platform segment just for kicks..."

Now you're contradicting yourself! First you say they'll switch to wince, a declining platform segment, then you say they won't? Everyone knows that wince is losing money -- how long will m$ tolerate that kind of failure?

Look for wince to be obsoleted within 18 months and replaced with an XP mobile derivative. That's the only way m$ can possibly hope to compete with linux in the mobile space: by trying to get XP developers onto the platform. So again, why would anyone move to a clearly obsolete platform like wince? :)

> "...The market has already decided what it wants..."

The market wants Palm OS. The market wants the Palm TX. M$ will pay millions to continue to try to shove wince down their necks, but hell, it hasn't worked so far, now has it? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
arp @ 10/21/2005 9:13:31 PM # Q
The thing is though, MS can just keep paying those millions forever. It's not like they're going to go broke over it.

I think you're right about the XP comment. It might get a magneto skin for smaller devices, but under the hood it will be either a full XP (ugh! I think not...) or some scaled down edition. The point would be to make the difference between developing for XP and winmob neglible and suddenly get 10x the devs for the platform.

I'm rooting for linux though, It scales down to mobile devices very well, as has been proven by sharp and homebrew ipaq distro makers. And of course uclinux...

--
http://www.arpx.net/article.php/top_10_palmos_applications - my top 10 palm apps

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
AdamaDBrown @ 10/21/2005 11:25:31 PM # Q
You can't build a reasonably sized handheld running XP using current technology. Period. Hell, Intel is trotting around a concept design for an XP based handheld, and despite having a huge design and construction budget, the thing is enormous. Maybe in 3-5 years, it will be practical, but not right now.

Just wanted to clear that up so that nobody mistook DO's over-the-top bombast for actual fact.

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/22/2005 10:29:19 AM # Q
gfunk wrote:
The truth is that we are still in a very early stage of a huge land rush in the burgeoning feature phone and smartphone markets. Symbain has the lead right now, but that is in no way garranteed in the future. There are three major platforms competing in this market: Symbian, WM, and Linux (with Palm Linux as possbile subset). WM has hardly won anything here yet...

Very well stated. People here need to start absorbing this and what it means.

I'm embarrassed that I didn't realize this article was just a complete misunderstanding based on ignorance of what PalmSource was already doing. I knew it made zero sense and should have trusted my instincts.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
sr4 @ 10/22/2005 11:10:37 AM # Q

I still take one thing away from the original article, which is that they will be focusing much more on feature phones than smartphones. Another article also implied the are developing specifically for the Japanese Docomo network (which makes more sense of their spending, they have a guaranteed buyer of their product already), and that their product may not be distributed to the rest of the world as readily.

BTW, the "very early stage of a huge land rush"-meme is a kirvinism. If you look at DOS and Windows, the winners and losers are decided very early, after which a network effect locks them into the market for decades afterwards, from where they can only be unseated by the application of huge amounts of capital.

Surur

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/22/2005 10:15:47 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
If you look at DOS and Windows, the winners and losers are decided very early, after which a network effect locks them into the market for decades afterwards

If you believe the network effect applies to mobile phones then you'll be forced to admit that Microsoft has lost the game. Symbian is at between 2/3 and 3/4 of the smartphone market share depending on which analyst you ask.

Yet somehow, Linux (the underdog in terms of both 2004 deployment and capital expenditure) seems to be defying this effect by taking away market share from both Symbian and Microsoft. I think there are a few factors at play here that didn't exist in the OS battle for the PC.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
AdamaDBrown @ 10/23/2005 12:40:04 AM # Q
Symbian smartphone marketshare is grossly overstated. I wouldn't accord Symbian more than 20% of current sales. Nokia artificially inflates Symbian numbers by using their Series 60 software on their glorified camera phones: 7 MB of memory, no touchscreen, no office applications, and an MMC slot under the battery don't make for a real smartphone. They've come out with a few interesting models, but the large majority of their market share is a phantom. Walk up to people who own a Series 60 phone and ask them what operating system they're on, or when the last time they installed software was. According to surveys, upwards of 90% of them will say "Huh?"

In any event, I think that the so-called "feature phone" market is over rated as well. In such a competitive arena, with profit margins so razor-thin, I suspect that most phone manufacturers will prefer to whomp up their own software rather than take out of their profit margin to license someone else's. Witness Linux, which is free to use and can be mutilated into whatever the phone maker wants it to be. The real money to be made is in smartphones.

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
Gekko @ 10/23/2005 12:44:47 AM # Q

give it up, beersie.



RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/23/2005 1:00:49 AM # Q
AdamaDBrown wrote:
Symbian smartphone marketshare is grossly overstated. I wouldn't accord Symbian more than 20% of current sales. Nokia artificially inflates Symbian numbers by using their Series 60 software on their glorified camera phones: 7 MB of memory, no touchscreen, no office applications, and an MMC slot under the battery don't make for a real smartphone. They've come out with a few interesting models, but the large majority of their market share is a phantom. Walk up to people who own a Series 60 phone and ask them what operating system they're on, or when the last time they installed software was. According to surveys, upwards of 90% of them will say "Huh?"

I'm not sure who you think you're arguing with. My point was that however big Symbian OS is right now, Surer's vaunted network effect isn't going to keep it from taking some serious heat in the next few years from Microsoft and Linux. In fact, there are indications that that erosion has already begun: http://www.mobilepipeline.com/news/172300427.

It's not at all clear that Microsoft is Symbian's biggest worry, though. Despite having no real application stack to speak of (yet) Linux is growing quite a bit faster as a smartphone platform than Microsoft and by some measures has already passed it by: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8804000399.html. So much for Surer's theory that it takes massive capitalization to unseat a dominant platform.

The real money to be made is in smartphones.

Eventually you will be right. For now smartphones are still a tiny percentage of the market--less than 5% of the feature phone market. Which is why Palm is still scrapping while Nokia is raking it in (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4360392.stm). I'm not sure why you thought this was relevant to the discussion but if you're seeing a glimpse of the opportunity here for ACCESS I think you're on the right track.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/23/2005 1:51:52 AM # Q
Gekko wrote: give it up, beersie.

Do you have something to contribute, Gekko? Cheerleader tryouts were last month and you weren't picked.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
sr4 @ 10/23/2005 5:10:02 AM # Q

Valid point David. I would counter that:

a) Symbian does not exhibit the platform effect due to not emphasizing interoperability. Each phone is a new phone, and you are starting from scratch. Its not a real platform yet.

b) Linux IS massively capitalized. I'm sure you would agree the Linux kernel is worth billions, and every cent of that was either from companies paying developers, donating code, or the actual sweat of volunteers who were either out of work or could be using their skills to earn real money elsewhere. So there is a lot of money behind Linux, just more diffusely. The 300 million paid for PSRC for their Linux efforts is just another example.

For a recent example of network effect you only have to look at the Ipod. You have the Itunes store (which can only work with Ipod's), the Ipod docks, the Ipod car kits, piles of Ipod accessories, the free Ipod media coverage and hype. Once you collect a few accessories and a large collection of songs on Itunes its going to be very difficult to justify upgrading to Creative mp3 player.

Surur

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/23/2005 12:08:19 PM # Q
I don't deny that the network effect exists and is important for certain kinds of products. It's been huge on the PC side and the iPod is another good example.

But mobile phones are demonstrably different and the effect is greatly diluted by the demand for differentiation and broad-based (i.e. standard-based) interoperability. Even Microsoft (whose main advantage over Palm is whatever network effect it can achieve through integration with backend software like Exchange and SQL Server) knows that this effect isn't enough to give it dominance in the mobile phone space. Otherwise why would they have licensed Exchange ActiveSync to Palm, essentially selling off a big piece of that advantage? Whatever price Palm paid for this license, that's about what your network effect is worth in the mobile phone market today. Microsoft obviously cared more about keeping a bit more market share for Exchange than sharing it's lock on that network.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
sr4 @ 10/23/2005 12:58:54 PM # Q

MS clearly prefers locking people into one of their cash cows (exchange/office) vs a source of negative revenue (win ce). This does not negate the thesis however.

Maybe of the Universal Connector was actually universal people would be a lot less inclined to jump ship due to both a software AND hardware investment.

Some of the network effects Win CE has going for it are:
1) Made by Microsoft, therefore association with a successful entrenched product.
2) Familiarity with the windows interface for newbies.
3) The same tools and API for the desktop and mobile devices (for a large part)
4) Compatibility between devices relatively good (compared to the various versions of the UI of Symbian and Linux, and the previous incompatible versions of Palm).

So yes, the desktop is being leveraged for the mobile device, but thats a pretty big advantage.

Surur

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/23/2005 5:56:53 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
Some of the network effects Win CE has going for it are:
1) Made by Microsoft, therefore association with a successful entrenched product.
2) Familiarity with the windows interface for newbies.
3) The same tools and API for the desktop and mobile devices (for a large part)
4) Compatibility between devices relatively good (compared to the various versions of the UI of Symbian and Linux, and the previous incompatible versions of Palm).

One way to evaluate how significant these factors are compared to factors such as good user experience, performance, stability, and usability is to ask yourself how many of these factors have been around since before Win CE became successful and how many could reasonably be associated with that fairly recent success.

I think you're left concluding that none of these except #3 has made a positive difference. (I'd argue that #2 has actually hampered adoption of Win CE since most people don't really like their PCs very much.) .NET is a factor (that's #3) but I'm sure you'll agree that this alone is not enough to account for the fairly recent reversal of Win CE's fortunes. Instead, I think you have to look at more obvious things: Microsoft has narrowed, sometimes closed the gap with Palm OS in areas like battery life, stability, reliable synchronization, application base. And they've offered a few things that Palm OS has been slow to deliver, thanks to the failure of Cobalt to make the market: multitasking being the most obvious one.

In short, Microsoft hasn't been successful because of the network effects you list. They've been successful because Palm and PalmSource simply didn't manage to hold on to the edge they had over Win CE from the beginning. In some respects they didn't innovate fast enough, and in others they attempted innovations that sacrificed the things that had earlier given them an advantage.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
sr4 @ 10/23/2005 6:51:02 PM # Q

Your reasoning is in error, as Win CE has only increased in marketshare over the years, coming from dead behind. It recently surpassed POS marketshare, but it has been growing for a long time.

If any narrowing in differences took place, it wasn't that WM devices became dramatically better (in battery life, size or stability) but that POS devices became dramatically worse (e.g. battery life of weeks became 3-4 days). In a way the Z22 signifies a return to POS roots.

I still think the items listed played a role in WM success.

Surur

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/24/2005 12:07:26 AM # Q
Surer wrote:
If any narrowing in differences took place, it wasn't that WM devices became dramatically better (in battery life, size or stability) but that POS devices became dramatically worse (e.g. battery life of weeks became 3-4 days). In a way the Z22 signifies a return to POS roots.

Read my post again. We're in agreement on this point.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
AdamaDBrown @ 10/24/2005 3:01:57 AM # Q
It's not at all clear that Microsoft is Symbian's biggest worry, though. Despite having no real application stack to speak of (yet) Linux is growing quite a bit faster as a smartphone platform than Microsoft and by some measures has already passed it by: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8804000399.html. So much for Surer's theory that it takes massive capitalization to unseat a dominant platform.

I don't think much of Linux as a "smartphone" platform either, at the moment. For one thing, many of the Linux "smartphones" suffer from the same problem as the Series 60 phones: they're not real smartphones, but they're counted as such because they have an OS.

Secondly, Linux will never have a solid software base and user experience without a strong, de facto standard for implementation. The completely free-form open source approach works great for some things, but when you're trying to get software to run across devices, you need standards for things like APIs, interface, resolutions, etcetera. Without one particular Linux version rising to dominance, that won't happen. So for now, in my opinion, the only real smartphone platforms are Palm, Windows, and Symbian UIQ.

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
sr4 @ 10/24/2005 3:20:16 AM # Q

There's always the view that it was Palm's game to lose, but when they became roughly equal platforms near two years ago, something gave Win CE the edge. I say its being Windows-like, and the advantages associated with it listed above.

Canalys numbers for Q3 2005 should be out soon, and will make interesting reading. We already know PalmOS sales were flat, due to various PSRC filings, but I wonder what Win CE did.

Surur

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/24/2005 8:26:16 AM # Q
Surer wrote:
Canalys numbers for Q3 2005 should be out soon, and will make interesting reading.

What would qualify as interesting for you? Canalys seems to exaggerate the Symbian dominance--at least in comparison to other analysts. In Q2 they had sales of the Nokia 9300/9500 alone roughly equaling sales of all Windows "converged devices" combined and Symbian occupying fully 75% of this market.

I don't expect Microsoft's movement into Symbian's territory is going to be anything terribly dramatic. What'll be interesting is what happens with mobile Linux one year, two years from now.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Symbian stuff...
Masamune @ 10/24/2005 8:33:10 AM # Q
While some of the above statements regarding Series 60 were true a while ago (limited in ability and no knows of them), it can't be said now. There's very little my Sendo X and Panasonic X800 can't do that my old T3 could and of course a lot more because of the data connectivity such as IM, email whenever I want it and browsing without the need of a hotspot. Heck , even some the latest version 9 smartphones such as the N91 have Wifi included and believe me, if Skype ever arrives on Series 60 (and it will), will that satisfy your criteria of a smartphone?

As for most Nokia users not recognising the OS - they don't need to. all Joe public needs to know is that the movie on a memory card he's buying (see ROKPlayer and others) will work on his 6680 or 6630.

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/24/2005 8:54:36 AM # Q
Masamune wrote:
While some of the above statements regarding Series 60 were true a while ago (limited in ability and no knows of them), it can't be said now.

Yeah, his figures were outdated and he obviously hadn't looked at any Series 60 phones in a while. My Nokia 6620 is as capable as any Palm device I own, it's just more phone-centric. You give up the big high-resolution screen and pen input in exchange for solid multi-tasking, niceties like the vibrating alarm and voice recorder, flawless Bluetooth, and a very small, light form factor. A lot of people seem to like that.

It's hard to switch to Series 60 if you've been a Palm user, because it really doesn't have the ease of use--there's a lot of clicking you have to do to accomplish anything. And it's not something you'd want to use for editing documents and such. I still strongly prefer Palm OS, but for the time being Series 60 seems to occupy the sweet-spot for most of the world's smartphone users who don't care much about 3rd party applications.

I don't think this kind of smartphone will always be the sweet spot, though. The vision that Microsoft and Palm have of smartphones as mobile computing platforms is the future, IMO.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Will Treo 650 support Microsoft's ActiveSync "push" email???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 2:29:08 PM # Q
Or has Microsoft pulled another fast one and will now limit MS Exchange support to the Windows Mobile version of the Treo?

Inquiring minds want to know.


Ryan, can you find out about this?

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Cobalt is a dream now
cervezas @ 10/24/2005 2:38:41 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Or has Microsoft pulled another fast one and will now limit MS Exchange support to the Windows Mobile version of the Treo?

Of course Palm doesn't need Microsoft's permission to support push email from MS Exchange on the Palm OS Treos. All they'd need to do is license one of several existing 3rd party solutions from Intellisync, Visto, ExtendedSystems, Consillient, etc.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

Look forward to the Netfront GUI

sr4 @ 10/21/2005 3:17:35 PM # Q
The statements from Access came as the company announced the formation of a joint venture with another Japanese group, Oki Electric Industry, which makes telecoms equipment as well as printers. The two have formed Oki Access Technologies to create mobile software combining Access's NetFront Mobile Client Suite (comprising the NetFront browser, a Java Virtual Machine, MMS, and PIN (?PIM) clients) and Oki's voice and video capabilities.

We've speculated about this before, but this certainly sounds like quite a closed system. Its almost feature phone territory.

Surur


RE: Look forward to the Netfront GUI
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 3:38:52 PM # Q
>>>Its almost feature phone territory...

Thank you for stating the OBVIOUS!

Umm...OF COURSE THIS IS A DESCRIPTION OF A FEATURE PHONE! PalmSource prior to the Access acquisition had already stated that they were working on a Feature Phone product to be released prior to Palm Linux. In fact, since the acqusition of CMS, they have already been offering a feature phone product called mFon.

But feature phones are a totally distinct market from Smartphones and this will not affect the development of Palm Linux or whatever the OS will be called...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Look forward to the Netfront GUI
AdamaDBrown @ 10/21/2005 4:11:24 PM # Q
I think the point is that they may not be talking about feature phones at all. This could be their idea of a smartphone OS. Remember that PalmLinux was PalmSource's project, not Access', and there's no guarantee anymore that Access will want to go in the same direction. They said that they were going to when they first announced the deal, but we see how long that lasted.

RE: Look forward to the Netfront GUI
pmjoe @ 10/21/2005 4:46:12 PM # Q
I think the real question here is if Access ONLY sees PalmLinux as a closed smartphone OS. I don't think this article answers that question. In my opinion, Access can't EOL the current Palm OS variants soon enough, if they build and provide a good PalmLinux product to replace them at that same time.

RE: Look forward to the Netfront GUI
Dr Opinion @ 10/21/2005 9:03:26 PM # Q
> "...I think the point is that they may not be talking about feature phones at all..."

It's a stupid point. Do you really think they bought an operating system just to put a gui on a cell phone? I mean, duh. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Look forward to the Netfront GUI
AdamaDBrown @ 10/23/2005 1:24:01 AM # Q
Do you think PalmSource bought Be OS and all Be Inc's assets and employees just to do nothing with them? Cause that's what they did. If you know anything about software development work, you know that it's highly unstable, and when directives come down from the top no one knows what can happen. Fortunately, it seems that Access is letting PalmSource maintain their present projects, though there's no way of predicting the future.

RE: Look forward to the Netfront GUI
madmaxmedia @ 10/24/2005 2:09:17 PM # Q
I think what PIC is dearly lacking is a Symbian troll...then the catfights would be complete!

Seriously though, maybe featurephones are the next smartphones. I don't think regular people want a real OS, there's a certain limited suite of features and the simplest way of delivering those features may be a featurephone. If some new cool app comes out, well they'll just get the new phone when their plan expires and they can get a cheap or free upgrade.

Phones will always be appliances to people, not mobile computing platforms, even as phones get more and more functionality.


Reply to this comment

Depressing news

ankers @ 10/21/2005 3:16:16 PM # Q
How can it be that the maker simplest, most elegant line of PDAs ends up being bought for some knowledge it bought from someone else. What a sad history of mismanagement.

Whatever OS Palm ends up with I hope that the UI is as simple to use as PalmOS.

a Brit in Clogland

RE: Depressing news
bsquare @ 10/21/2005 3:32:27 PM # Q

Replace "PDA" in your statement with "OS" and you have what Palm did to BeOS. Took a beautifully advanced Desktop OS and brought it in only to kill it off and bury it. One good turn deserves another I guess.


RE: Depressing news
The Black Moose @ 10/21/2005 3:33:59 PM # Q
Ditto, I'm game for linux...in a way

Also, why do I think I have heard this news before?

Granted, my software won't work without an emulator, but linux can be okay as long as the user interface remains as simple as the one that makes me stick with Palm OS in the first place. I don't want the colorful start menu style of Win PPC, just basic backgrounds...well now a couple of pictures on the main screens for a modest touch. Decent or better handwriting recognition is a must.

For all we know, maybe it'll all be the same with the difference being with the core programming being linux based, perhaps like the Macintosh system changing for intel processors while being the same operating system we have come to know and love.

Worst case scenario-- grab the latest and greatest palm OS and hang on for dear life.

RE: Depressing news
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 3:43:05 PM # Q
>>>>>Whatever OS Palm ends up with I hope that the UI is as simple to use as PalmOS.

Of course, that is the whole point! Prior to the CMS acquistion, PalmSource had stated they wanted to develop a feature phone product with GUI similar to the tradition palmos GUI. Palm Linux also will essentially be Cobalt API's over linx kernal with familiar palmos GUI...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Depressing news
pmjoe @ 10/21/2005 4:26:50 PM # Q
>Replace "PDA" in your statement with "OS" and you have what
>Palm did to BeOS. Took a beautifully advanced Desktop OS and
>brought it in only to kill it off and bury it. One good turn
>deserves another I guess.

That's a rather ignorant statement. BeOS was essentially dead as a desktop OS (ignoring the beauty and advancedness of it) long before Palm bought it. Be had completely switched their OS direction to the consumer/embedded device market well before then. So in that sense, BeOS was a perfectly fine fit for what Palm was doing. What always lost me was how it seemed like little to none of the BeOS software technology became Cobalt. So the purchase, after they appeared to have also chased the Be development staff away, seemed to be for nothing. I mean if you buy an OS company and you don't use the OS for anything and you don't keep most of the employees around to do any other work, what exactly did you buy it for?

If you want to blame Palm for making a waste of the BeOS purchase fine, but if you want to blame someone for killing BeOS as a desktop OS, blame Be. I talked with some of their reps at a tech expo long before the Palm purchase was even on the radar, and they wouldn't even admit to there being a desktop BeOS anymore, it was all about consumer device development.

If anything what Palm should've learned from Be (preferably before the purchase), it would've been that an OS where you had to do all the device driver development yourself, was not going to succeed as a generic OS in the consumer device realm.

Gasséed?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/21/2005 10:48:46 PM # Q
>Replace "PDA" in your statement with "OS" and you have what
>Palm did to BeOS. Took a beautifully advanced Desktop OS and
>brought it in only to kill it off and bury it. One good turn
>deserves another I guess.

That's a rather ignorant statement. BeOS was essentially dead as a desktop OS (ignoring the beauty and advancedness of it) long before Palm bought it. Be had completely switched their OS direction to the consumer/embedded device market well before then. So in that sense, BeOS was a perfectly fine fit for what Palm was doing. What always lost me was how it seemed like little to none of the BeOS software technology became Cobalt. So the purchase, after they appeared to have also chased the Be development staff away, seemed to be for nothing. I mean if you buy an OS company and you don't use the OS for anything and you don't keep most of the employees around to do any other work, what exactly did you buy it for?

The "official" explanation is that the Be purchase gave Palm/PalmSource an infusion of Holy Be Engineers (HoBeEn) and access to Alien Technology-derived Be code, all at a bargain basement price. The REAL explanation is that Be's flamboyant flaming founder was JL Gassée - another member of that inbred Apple Dumpling Gang - and Rule #1 in business is "Take Care of Your Friends Today and Someday They'll Take Care of You". Is it any surprise that last November, Gassée was appointed Chairman of the PalmSource Board?

This Palm greasing was almost as obscene as the scam Palm/PalmSource almost pulled off with the $30 MILLION embezzlement - I mean purchase - to obtain "rights" to the Palm name... mere months before the companies tried to reunite. Slick. Even funnier is the fact that the "Treo" name is probably more important than "Palm" these days.

If you want to blame Palm for making a waste of the BeOS purchase fine, but if you want to blame someone for killing BeOS as a desktop OS, blame Be. I talked with some of their reps at a tech expo long before the Palm purchase was even on the radar, and they wouldn't even admit to there being a desktop BeOS anymore, it was all about consumer device development.

If anything what Palm should've learned from Be (preferably before the purchase), it would've been that an OS where you had to do all the device driver development yourself, was not going to succeed as a generic OS in the consumer device realm.


Be was a Dead Company Walking from the minute Apple told Gassée to go fcuk himself after he tried to fcuk Apple up the a$$ when they were desperate for ANYTHING to base their next-generation MacOS on. (In 1997 Apple had offered $200 million, Gassée wanted $275 million. Be Inc. ultimately was sold to Palm Inc. for only $11 million in 2002!)

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Goodbye everyone, I'll miss you

finejames @ 10/21/2005 3:20:04 PM # Q
A death in the famil usually leads the members to stray. I am sure that this will do the same to everyone here. Some will end up with a Symbian system, others will fall prey to the allure of a Windows Mobile unit.

The ones I worry about are the ones who will begin to port the Amiga operating system onto their Palm III......please be well.


Goodbye and may God Bless the United States of America

RE: Goodbye everyone, I'll miss you
Frenchie @ 10/21/2005 3:25:03 PM # Q
I guess i will be using a Windows Mobile PDA from now on.

Oh well, it was good while it lasted. Onto the darkside.

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p

RE: Goodbye everyone, I'll miss you
hkklife @ 10/21/2005 3:28:55 PM # Q
The SADDEST part of all of this is that we won't even seen the end of the Palm OS signalled by a handful of strong releases by Palm. Instead we get a two-years-too-late unit that still has some issues (TX) and a "budget" device. Really, is there any evidence to the contrary? Have we seen the final "true" new POS devices?

Now this makes me really wonder if a 2nd LifeDrive or another Garnet Treo is even in the offering. Palm might just try and milk the existing Z22, T|E2, TX, LD and Treo 650 for another year (with a ROM update here & there) and then fold the entire line.

Sad, truly sad.

I really would have preferred to have seen Garnet spun off and sold to Palm for continued Franken-permutations rather than this slow fizzle.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Goodbye everyone, I'll miss you
Wolfgard @ 10/21/2005 3:35:42 PM # Q
Palm can still work on Garnet as it has the license to do so till 2009. But who will want to use Garnet 5.9.9.9 by then? The big question now is will the Linux kernel ACCESS is working on run PalmOS apps?

pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55 & Handera 330
You people are over reacting...
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 3:45:25 PM # Q
*sigh*....

Good grief, what the hell was stated in that article which was not already obvious from previous statements?

Lets see:

-Access bought PalmSource b/c of its future linux products
-CMS acquisition made PalmSource attract to buyer
-PalmOS Garnet is end of life
-Access wants to focus on linux based OS being developed by Palmsource
-ACESSS also working on feature phone product

Uhh...well NO SH!T! This does NOT mean the end of PalmOS. IT means the end of "FrankenGarnet" which imo is actually a good thing.

The real question imo though is what will Palm and other PalmSource/Access lisencees do in the short term until PL appears? FrankenGarnet cannot last for another two years imo...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Goodbye everyone, I'll miss you
hkklife @ 10/21/2005 3:52:31 PM # Q
That's what I have been wondering ever since the Access announcement...there needs to be SOMETHING better than FrankenGarnet 5.4.9 as an interim OS between now and PLinux appears in SHIPPING devices.


Garnet is servicable in <$200 PDAs. WinMob will take care of the flagship Treo. Where does that leave the other Treos and the mid/upper-range PDAs though?

Even a partial rewrite of Garnet's buggiest bits with some (more) Cobalt code tacked on would be better than nothing! There's simply no way Garnet will suffice for 2 years in anything other than super cheap Z22/Zire 31 style devices. So either Palm tries to thrive on a WinMob Treo and cheap "DayPlanner" style PDAs...or they really try to do their own interim Linux solution. OR..they put WinMob on their non-Treo models.

Either way it's not a rosy outlook for '06 and beyond. I cannot recall a time in the tech world since perhaps the day of Windows 98 that the LONG-TERM outlook was positive but the short-term looked so bleak.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Goodbye everyone, I'll miss you
medevilenemy @ 10/21/2005 4:04:57 PM # Q
Now Come On, you are ALL overreacting, even you gfinkmagic. ALL indications point to 1) Palm, Inc staying around for a long lime more, 2) The continued existance of the palmos (My guess is palm will not go for the whole PalmLinux idea and will instead buy either or both of garnet and cobalt) 3)The continued release of new, high-quality PDAs from at the very least palm, inc... The T|X is hardly 2 years too late! The core OS may be old, but it has been heavily updated, and is just as viable now as it ever was 4) I will very soon flip out on account of all you nutty fatalists on this forum.

Don't any of you pay attention? The signs are all around (in interviews with palm execs, in leaks, and more) that Palm is in the process of re-vitalizing itself, and updating it's product lines.

MY PREDICTIONS: By years end we will see a Treo 700p (if not a 700s as well); Either a LD re-release, "LD2", or both; By the end of the spring release season we will likely see palm's secret third project, and a noteable update of the OS (be it Cobalt finally or a major revision of garnet -- by way of the developers at palm). THINK ABOUT IT! IF ACCESS DOENT HAVE HOPE FOR THE FUTURE OF THE PALMOS PROPER, WHAT WILL THEY DO WITH IT? THEY WILL LIKELY QUIETLY SELL THE RIGHTS TO IT TO ANOTHER COMPANY. IF THIS HAPPENS, THERE IS ALMOST A 100% CHANCE THAT PALM WOULD BE THE BUYER (the palmos is of vital importance to palm's continued existance), AND PALM WOULD LIKELY CONTINUE OS DEVELOPMENT FROM WHERE IT LEFT OFF WHEN IT FOOLISHLY SPUN OFF PALMSOURCE.

Have hope, my friends, for better days are on their way. Do not forcast doom while there are clear signs of good weather ahead. Do not be so quick to dismiss the company which defined the PDA market (the Newton from apple doesnt really count).

If you REALLY care what happens, let's collectively contact Palm, INC and voice our support and opinions in some sort of community letter writing campaign or petition.

RE: Goodbye everyone, I'll miss you
pmjoe @ 10/21/2005 5:34:25 PM # Q
>MY PREDICTIONS [...] AND PALM WOULD LIKELY CONTINUE OS DEVELOPMENT
>FROM WHERE IT LEFT OFF WHEN IT FOOLISHLY SPUN OFF PALMSOURCE.

Although I agree that if Access decides to drop continued development of the Palm OS proper, Palm will be likely to buy it, this really does not seem to be anything to get excited about. Palm has consistently shown that their only interest in the Palm OS is to continue to hack away at Garnet so they can milk every penny per share they can out of it before the bottom drops out.

The only possible good weather I can see is if Access and PalmSource commit to making PalmLinux a viable, popular platform for mobile devices (and not just smartphones).

Reply to this comment

future linux distro

Mi_An @ 10/21/2005 3:29:03 PM # Q
Will this handheld linux run current palm programs? And will the linux be for pdas or just phones?

This sucks.

RE: future linux distro
achitnis @ 10/21/2005 3:41:36 PM # Q
From descriptions of PalmOS-on-Linux in the past, backward compatibility with current PalmOS programs was lways part of the design. Essentially, there would have been a compatibility layer (simnilar to what was to have been in Cobalt) to handle the API-compatibility issues.

Access, like PalmSource, has never said that they will restrict themselves to PDAs or phones - they essentially will create an OS that could be used in PDAs, phones or any other device - conceivably even PCs, Internet Access Devices (IADs), tablets, etc.

Just because we have known PalmOS only in PDAs didn't stop it from appearing on phones and even devices like the Dana.


Atul Chitnis
http://atulchitnis.net

Reply to this comment

Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?

gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 3:55:52 PM # Q
Access/PalmSource long term strategy for Palm Linux is obvious. But what will the lisencees (mainly Palm) do in the mean time since PL is still nearly 2 years away??

IMO, the future platform strategy for Palm is obviously up in the air. There are basically three main mobile platforms with real long term potential: Symbian, WM, and Linux. Which one will Palm support long term? Will Palm only support one plaftorm exclusively? To the latter question, I doubt it.

Palm OS "FrankenGarnet" has no future and is dead as a smartphone platform for future growth I think most people would agree. Palm Linux is the dark horse of course (and would be a subset of the Linux platform stated above). The question is, what will Palm do between now and the release of Palm Linux? Can the continue to rely on a very aged and limited FrankenGarnet platform for the next two years until PL device is released? They have already released a WM Treo, but is this only as a short term strategy until PL is released or is this for the long haul? IMO, the greatest growth will be in WM and Linux platforms at the expense of Symbian. IMO, the long term plan of Palm is Linux (and perhaps PL if it meets expectations) and the short term plan is to support WM...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
cervezas @ 10/21/2005 4:25:06 PM # Q
Gaurav wrote:
Access/PalmSource long term strategy for Palm Linux is obvious. But what will the lisencees (mainly Palm) do in the mean time since PL is still nearly 2 years away??

Apparently what's obvious to you about Access/PalmSource's long term strategy is not too obvious to the rest of us. I read this statement by Access as an announcement that there won't be a Palm OS for Linux. Not in 2 years and not ever, if the decision is left to Access, as for now it seems to be. EOL means "end of life."

What's interesting is to speculate about what all these Linux rumors concerning Palm mean now. It's sounded like Palm may have been working independently on a Linux platform, with the help of embedded Linux vendor Wind River. And there has been news of Linux testing within Palm for over a year. We've even heard a report from someone who seems to be within PalmSource that Palm has been working on a Linux clamshell device that isn't a phone--this coming months before Palm Linux was to be released.

Was that work preparation for a Palm Linux that will now never arrive? Or were they hedging their bets and working independently on their own platform? Big questions about what Palm does next, having stated that they have no plans ever to use Windows Mobile on anything but a Treo.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 4:57:02 PM # Q
>>>>I read this statement by Access as an announcement that there won't be a Palm OS for Linux. Not in 2 years and not ever, if the decision is left to Access, as for now it seems to be. EOL means "end of life."


That statment is WRONG:

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Palm_OS_Is_NOT_Dead

"The PalmSource spokesperson said that this assertion is totally wrong, and much of what is in the article is equally incorrect.

PalmSource is working to get CBR to retract the article."

This was obviously a piss poorly written article by a person who quite obvisouly doesn't what he's talking about...

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
neuron @ 10/21/2005 5:02:56 PM # Q
Well, everybody know there is nothing wrong with this article, although nothing new either. The PalmSource speakman may know nothing about current situation.

Palm OS will be end of life becauce Access can't use Palm anymore.
Garnet will be end of life because it will be replaced by a Linux version OS.
Cobalt is end of life from the beginning.

The only possible new in this story is Cobalt won't be re-visited as previous stated.

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
cervezas @ 10/21/2005 5:03:47 PM # Q
Perhaps what they meant was that Palm OS Garnet is going to EOL before long (which we all knew). I'll wait to see that retraction or some other definitive statement before I decide what the hell is going on here.

If Brighthand is right maybe this will flush out some more information about ACCESS's real plans as they do the needed damage control.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 5:24:41 PM # Q
>>>>Well, everybody know there is nothing wrong with this article, although nothing new either. The PalmSource speakman may know nothing about current situation.

English please? I'm sure if I'm agreeing with you or disagreeing?

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
neuron @ 10/21/2005 5:27:22 PM # Q
Am I speaking Spanish?

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
whydidnt @ 10/21/2005 5:30:24 PM # Q
Well, I don't think we can say for certain that EOL means just Garnet/Cobalt, or includes Palm-Linux. I personally think it's all of the above, but there's enough Linux talk there to confuse things.

I think we can say for certain that calling Palm Source to ask about the accuracy of this article is worthless. They were purchased by Access and if Access says it's the end of the road for the OS, the folks at PS have nothing to say about it.

More likely we'll see some slap down of the guy from Access who let this be published before it was supposed to be public.

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 5:31:28 PM # Q
>>>Am I speaking Spanish?

I dunno, maybe "Palmish" :)

Anyway, like I stated earlier: IF FrankenGarent is end of life now, and Palm Linux has yet to have life...what will Palm do in the short term until PL arrives? Can it possbily streatch out Garnet for another 2 years?!!

Also if Cobalt is not binary compatible with PL (as I queried in a post above), would that positively nullify any adoption of Cobalt in the short term?

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: Okay long term is Palm Linux , but about short term?
HiWire @ 10/21/2005 8:51:18 PM # Q
Go Cobalt regardless. Even if it's 2 programmers and a coffee maker.

Palm m505 User
Reply to this comment

It's been a good run

cervezas @ 10/21/2005 3:59:06 PM # Q
Amazing news, huh? And very sad. I ran across this article this morning and it threw me right back into the question of why ACCESS would pay $324M for PalmSource if all they wanted were the developer resources.

There's some speculation among developers on the PEF that if ACCESS doesn't really want the Palm OS it would probably try to "flip it": sell it to Palm or Motorola. In the abstract it might make a certain amount of sense, but if that was their plan why would they have made the announcement that they intend to EOL the Palm OS themselves? Unless something was lost in translation I think we have to take this pretty much at face value.

Of course the other thing to keep in mind is that even PalmSource themselves have in some sense been moving away from (or at least creating alternatives to) the Palm OS. All this talk about the Rome UI, a feature phone platform, non-touchscreen devices, had little to do with anything that Palm OS users would have been familiar with and it wouldn't have supported existing Palm OS applications.

I'll sure miss the Palm OS, but if AcSource (together with the OSDL Mobile Linux Initiative that PalmSource just joined) does their work well I'll be down with developing on their Linux platform in any case.

Anyway, if you're leaving, and it seems you are, Sayonara Palm OS. It's been a great run and you will be missed.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's been a good run
sr4 @ 10/21/2005 4:33:07 PM # Q
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/26/microsoft_excluded_from_docomo/

How's this for as theory. Its not about the Chinese networks, its about the Japanese networks. They needed a Linux base for their smartphone so they could access the Docomo network, which is exclusively Linux and Symbian, by decree.

Ironically it looks like Japan is now opening up to WM, which has really caught on around the rest of the world.

Surur

RE: It's been a good run
SeldomVisitor @ 10/21/2005 4:37:09 PM # Q
Well...the buyout price is making a LITTLE more sense if PALM was the hidden backer of ACCESS's win over Motorola, no?

Otherwise this is just plain weirder...

RE: It's been a good run
cervezas @ 10/21/2005 4:41:16 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
They needed a Linux base for their smartphone so they could access the Docomo network, which is exclusively Linux and Symbian, by decree.

Who's "they"? Access is partly owned by DoCoMo and they've supplied browsers and other software for phones that run on the DoCoMo network for years, but they're a software company not a hardware company.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: It's been a good run
sr4 @ 10/21/2005 4:46:29 PM # Q
To expand on that theory then, maybe DoCoMo was not happy with the quality and consistency of the Linux smartphone offerings, and wanted to provide an OS to use on their own network, which they controlled themselves, to license to hardware makers.

Its actually quite a good strategy, kind of like a tax on hardware makers to use their network. Their bread is buttered on both sides, and they get revenue from handsets AND network usage.

Surur

RE: It's been a good run
craigdts @ 10/21/2005 6:01:59 PM # Q
Seldom,

Could Access be playing hardball with Palm while they attempt to finalize a price on the palm OS?

RE: It's been a good run
SeldomVisitor @ 10/21/2005 7:42:04 PM # Q
Well, we're guessing a WAY load of things here but...

If I were the guessing type (who, me?) I'd guess that the answer to your question is a guaranteed "No Way!" since MY personal assumption would be that PALM went to ACCESS and said "Gimmee! Here's some bucks! Win!" and ACCESS said "Okie dokie - deal!" WAY before the bids were finalized (we're talking an hour or two, I think...).

For all we know PALM doesn't have to BUY PalmOS, ACCESS will GIVE it to them!

Stranger things have happenned....I guess...

RE: It's been a good run
craigdts @ 10/21/2005 7:53:55 PM # Q
if CMS is the big deal here in PSRC then why the heck would Access pay $324 mil, when palm paid $20 mil foor CMS. So palm OS and developments worthh $304 mil? I can't make any sense out of this thing. The media I read says that Access wanted feature phone stuff, then why didn't they just buy CMS a while back? So do they wan't the Palm PIM apps also?

RE: It's been a good run
SeldomVisitor @ 10/22/2005 8:57:55 AM # Q
A lot of people simply do not understand the economics behind this deal - I'm one of them. No matter HOW I look at it I find it simply - and literally - incomprehensible.

Reply to this comment

More on Access's intentions

sr4 @ 10/21/2005 5:30:28 PM # Q
IT media (Japanese Source) interview to Mr.Oishi who is Marketing Director of ACCESS. (18 Sep 2005)

ITmedia :
At first, let us know the procedure of purchasing Palmsourse. From which side suggest this subject and from when the negotiation started?"

Mr.Oishi:
It has just started from July 2005. Actually, ACCESS and Palm has business relationship since 3 years ago for licensing ACCESS Engines on PalmOS. From ourside, we suggest that we should cooporate more. Then if we need more cooporation, - why we aren't be as one?- This is the procedure of this time news.

ITmedia:
Why do you want to have more cooporation with Palmsource? What kind of benefit you can get for this time purchasing Palmsource?

Mr.Oishi:
For mobilephone business, we can say we have strong relashionship with Mobilephone careers and Mobilephone Hard Makers in Japan. And Palmsource has so much good applications. At the same time, applications for mobilephone also has many kinds of applications and some of them can make you make sync with addressbook in mobilephone & servers. But developping such a application, PalmOS has much advantage, so if we shake hands, we can support each other.PalmOs is "Developper Community". This is really strong advantage in the market and in addition to that, Palmsource has already purchased China Mobilesoft with 250 staffs. That means we can use cheap resources in China for R&D.

ITmedia:
Will you provide software for smartphones with so much PalmOS applications?

Mr.Oishi:
That is one of our future solutions. If we use Palm community, new applications are easily released with many developers.And also if we can make Linux based palmOS and released it all in one, we can reduce cost and leadtime for R&D.That makes us to get more cliants.

ITmedia:
ACCESS has already browser application for DoCoMo, Japanese Giant career and work together. But at the same time,New mobilephone careers are focus on Such a smartphone buisiness in Japanese market. Will you provide same kind of platform to other careers?

Mr.Oishi:
That is one of the choice for our future business.
But we want to make sure our concept. Linux is not only for PDA. In these days, DoCoMo's paltform is also Linux and other set-top-box, Digital TV also use Linux. But actual situation for makers is just like, this layer is made by A company, application is from B company, and then.... it takes time and be confused. But we ACCESS and PalmSource can support such a solution as one.

ITmedia:
In these days, palm has not good performance in the market. Why they cannot make it?

Mr.Oishi:
Palm set up PDA & Smartphone as center of their business. But that was too long to keep the direction. PalmSource also understand it and try to shift their business more to the mobile and Wireless business. Purchasing China MobileSoft is one of the their change. They just want to make change. But they can make it more with us. With ACCESS purchases PalmSourece, it makes the worth 1 yen as 3 yen, but if others purchase palmSource, it still as 1 yen.

http://saruzou.cocolog-nifty.com/palm1wemissu/2005/09/why_does_access.html

Seen in the PalmAddict forum. Interesting article. It clearly states they value the developers and apps from POS, so compatibility seems assured. It does look however that they expect initial devices only to be released on the DoCoMo network. Also do they seem to imply that feature phones and not "smartphones" are the future?

Surur

RE: More on Access's intentions
gfunkmagic @ 10/21/2005 5:45:13 PM # Q
Thanks for pointing out that article Surer. Very informative...

>>>>Also do they seem to imply that feature phones and not "smartphones" are the future?


Well the Feature phone or low end will be MUCH larger than the high end smartphone market. Thus it would make sense for Access/Palmsource to go after that market. Recall what we're talking about here is something equivalent to Nokia's Series 40 interface etc but with PalmOS look and feel. Full PL will still probably be a very high end device...

--------------------
Gaurav

Reply to this comment

Perfect Vacuum

Gekko @ 10/21/2005 7:12:41 PM # Q

"Create an absence, and the vacuum will fill itself with a ferociousness that no "active" force can match." - Yanki Tauber



RE: Perfect Vacuum
AdamaDBrown @ 10/21/2005 11:53:11 PM # Q
Keep going and you'll rival ET for strange and cryptic messages.

RE: Perfect Vacuum. Just don't stick your **** in it...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/22/2005 12:20:04 AM # Q
Spurned PalmOS users are likely to lap up any vaguely PalmOS-ish platform they're shown if/once the Real Thing is no longer available.

New Coke/Old Coke, anyone?




TVoR

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?

Dr Opinion @ 10/21/2005 9:20:26 PM # Q
And how loudly did ACCESS's and Palm's lawyers have to threaten to make them retract it? :)

Maybe m$ didn't pay CBR at all -- maybe they just bribed the reporter? I'd hate to be that guy now. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
LiveFaith @ 10/21/2005 10:47:00 PM # Q
Redmond's got positions for him. Don't worry.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
AdamaDBrown @ 10/21/2005 11:33:46 PM # Q
D.O., I'm getting mixed signals. What's the official Palm fanboy spin: that this is old information and means nothing, or that it's a conspiracy of evil Microsoft?

Really, if you've ever dealt in either journalism or PR, you know how this sort of thing can happen. One person makes a misstatement, or says something in a way that the other person misinterprets, and away we go. In this case, somebody at Access may have said that the current Palm OS is at the end of its useful life, and the reporter thought that they meant it was end-of-life, which is a modern way of saying discontinued. The reporter believes he/she/it has a huge scoop, writes an article about it, and the rest is history.

To cast it as a conspiracy by Microsoft is, well, paranoid. Do you think that they thought a single vague article on a virtually unheard of publication was going to eliminate the Palm OS? Just curious how you justify your thinking. Besides which, nine times out of ten Microsoft is barely agile enough to avoid getting run down on the freeway by whatever the latest tech trend is, let alone mount a disinformation campaign of any scale without getting caught.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/21/2005 11:58:14 PM # Q
Adama, I left you a message at work earlier, but in case you didn't get it: Bill changed our meeting time to 11 a.m. tomorrow in the Deschutes Room at the Redmond campus. See you then.

Melinda

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Dr Opinion @ 10/21/2005 11:59:05 PM # Q
> "...Do you think that they thought a single vague article on a virtually unheard of publication was going to eliminate the Palm OS? Just curious how you justify your thinking."

Wow: You're apparently suggesting that this is such an obscure publication, there's no way it could have been spread around the entire PDA community so fast without a little "help". I have to agree: it really looks like someone wanted this article to get a *lot* of media attention.

Very good point. :)

> "...Besides which, nine times out of ten Microsoft is barely agile enough to avoid getting run down on the freeway by whatever the latest tech trend is, let alone mount a disinformation campaign of any scale without getting caught..."

Ahh. The old "the government is so big a slow, how can there possibly be any governmental conspiracies" logical fallacy. The size, bloat, and overall incompetence of an organization does not preclude conspiracies. In fact, this one was so shoddy, transparent, and quickly aborted, I'd say the sheer incompetence screams of microsuck intervention.

But good point, all the same. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Kirvin: get professional help.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/22/2005 12:12:30 AM # Q
In fact, this one was so shoddy, transparent, and quickly aborted, I'd say the sheer incompetence screams of microsuck intervention.

I understand you are planning to give up commenting on PalmOS PDAs in order to try your hand at being an "author". Here's some advice: Don't give up the day job. You didn't just lose your job, did you, Jeff?

Sorry to see you freak out and go postal the past few days.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
AdamaDBrown @ 10/22/2005 1:17:57 AM # Q
Melinda,

I might be late for the meeting, my flight has been delayed. The pilot mentioned a "colonel upgrade" and something called a "dev null." Really, who gets this crazy pilot tech talk.

D.O.,

The number of people who saw this article prior to it being corrected were a very small number of the hard-core handheld community, which is in turn a very small subset of handheld buyers. In other words, despite the relative speed it spread at, only a handful of people ever thought that it was accurate.

Besides which, what lasting effect has it had? One reporter at CBR is probably trying to forget his day in a haze of alcohol, and a few people here made some hasty comments in eulogy of the Palm OS. It has no effect on sales, on mainstream perception, or on the viability of the platform. It's a footnote in the record.

You still haven't sufficiently explained how Microsoft is both massively incompetant at everything and sublimely clever enough to wage a massive disinformation war responsible for every piece of Palm OS news you don't like.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Dr Opinion @ 10/22/2005 1:42:42 AM # Q
> "...[blah] very small number [blah] only a handful of people [blah] what lasting effect has it had? [blah]..."

Eh? Totally missing the point. If this article (like much else that goes on around here) was paid-for shilling, then it is the intent on microsuck's part that is so appalling: woefull execution never let a criminal off the hook.

> "...You still haven't sufficiently explained how Microsoft is both massively incompetant at everything and [yet] sublimely clever enough to wage a massive disinformation war...."

Duh. This wouldn't require *everyone* at m$ to be involved. Just a couple of overly ambitious little gits in the marketing department would do the trick. The problem with m$ is that they *encourage* that sort of cheap shot.

There is a reason why the average person in the street believes that it is *perfectly* *normal* to expect windows to crash, office to crash, viruses to destroy data, websites to install porn dialers, to expect that a home computer will gradually slow down over a year or so until it is completely unusable and joe user has to actually buy a new computer. When joe user junks his virus-ridden PC in disgust and buys a new one, m$ pockets the new XP license fee. Profits are up! And somehow, joe user thinks this is *normal*. What caused the PC to break down? Because m$ sold a faulty product: they are incompetent. How is it possible that they can sustain such ongoing incompetence? Because they are a monopoly. Why does it suit them? Because support and replacements are *profit* *centers*.

The same applies to wince. Why don't applications work across major OS revisions? Because m$ wants you to buy a replacement. Why are there so few applications? Becuase developers have been burned as the API kept changing. Why don't wince devices have adequate battery life? Because of incompetence. Why can't windows powered handhelds hotsync completely or reliably? Because of incompetence. Have I explained it sufficiently? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
svrontis @ 10/22/2005 2:18:13 AM # Q
> You still haven't sufficiently explained how Microsoft is both massively incompetant at everything and sublimely clever enough to wage a massive disinformation war responsible for every piece of Palm OS news you don't like.

Who is accusing M$ of being incompetant? On the contrary, they give every indication of being very cunning in the way they run their business.

As to not being able to prove that M$ are behind the anti-Palm misinformation campaigns we see so often here at PIC, that is a pretty thin defense.

If you observe an effect, you can properly surmise the cause even without being able to prove the precise mechanics of the link between the two. For instance, we can observe the effects of gravity and we can deduce that the cause of gravity is the promiximity of mass. Nobody, however, has a clue about how gravity really works; yet, nobody would deny that gravity is caused by mass.

Anyway, I'm curious about why you are always so eager to defend M$. (Perhaps this is because you have some 'skin in the game' too.)

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Sam H @ 10/22/2005 7:13:31 AM # Q
this article (like much else that goes on around here) was paid-for shilling

Whereas you give it out for free.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Sam H @ 10/22/2005 7:55:32 AM # Q
M$ are behind the anti-Palm misinformation campaigns we see so often here at PIC

http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A/Amiga-Persecution-Complex.html

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Dr Opinion @ 10/22/2005 9:13:50 AM # Q
> "...Whereas you give it out for free..."

(1) It's not shilling when palm fans post positive things about palm on a site dedicated to palms.

(2) It is shilling when microsuck employees post negative things about palm on a palm site while pretending not to be microsuck employees.

The funny thing is that the m$ shilling is really obvious here, really easy to expose, and since wince is a shoddy product with few developers, really easy to refute. And yet these idiots keep coming back! :)

http://www.users.qwest.net/~eballen1/msft.shilling.html


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Sam H @ 10/22/2005 9:49:03 AM # Q
(1) It's not shilling when palm fans post positive things about palm on a site dedicated to palms.

No, but it is shilling when Jeff Kirvin posts positive things about palm in the hope they'll give him a job.

(2) It is shilling when microsuck employees post negative things about palm on a palm site while pretending not to be microsuck employees.

I know what your motivation is, but I'm going to indulge you for a moment.

Do you seriously think that posts on an internet forum make any real difference to a platform's success? How many potential palm users do you think are gained or lost after reading these posts? Astroturfing is a largely ineffective tool (witness Marty Fouts efforts). Microsoft are no strangers to playing dirty, but the idea that they would seriously think they could make a difference to their market share by paying people to post on an internet forum is absurd.

The funny thing is that the m$ shilling is really obvious here

What's really obvious here is that you're a clueless 15 year old trying to get a rise out of people. Go do the dishes.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
lamp @ 10/22/2005 11:35:37 AM # Q
>>>
Astroturfing is a largely ineffective tool (witness Marty Fouts efforts)
<<<

Having read Marty's posts, I wouldn't call it asto-turfing. Wasn't he, and a couple of other intrepid souls, just trying to put more "reason" on the forum, and less "voice"?



RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
AdamaDBrown @ 10/23/2005 1:29:41 AM # Q
D.O. said:
Eh? Totally missing the point. If this article (like much else that goes on around here) was paid-for shilling, then it is the intent on microsuck's part that is so appalling: woefull execution never let a criminal off the hook.

Objection: assumes facts not in evidence.

Duh. This wouldn't require *everyone* at m$ to be involved. Just a couple of overly ambitious little gits in the marketing department would do the trick. The problem with m$ is that they *encourage* that sort of cheap shot.

Actually, they get sued by the FTC if they do that sort of thing. By all means, if you can provide evidence that Microsoft paid for CBR to post this article, then do so. I'm sure that the DOJ, not to mention the European Union, will be very interested to hear about it. I, on the other hand, tend to stick with Occam's Razor, and in this case the simplest explanation is exactly what PalmSource said: there was a misunderstanding between Access and the reporter.

There is a reason why the average person (snip)

It's perfectly true that Microsoft has a dodgy reputation for security. I doubt virtually anyone who knows anything will disagree.

I should note that there's a certain degree to which this is unavoidable. Any desktop platform that has the large majority of marketshare is going to get the viruses, and most people aren't savvy enough to properly protect their PC. Blame Microsoft for the Outlook security holes that let viruses automatically propagate, or the similar IE flaws, and the open ports on XP. All that is their fault--as I see it, mostly the result of cross-contamination, letting OS code and internet code intermingle, and it's unacceptable if you're trying to maintain a secure OS. However, average users are still going to find a way to mess up their machines, because that's what users do.

The same applies to wince. Why don't applications work across major OS revisions?

Actually, they do. Those that don't, you can hardly blame on MS if the developers have stopped updating the program. Speaking of compatibility, don't I recall many advisories to completely delete your installed program base and start fresh when upgrading a Palm device? Pity that.

Why are there so few applications? Becuase developers have been burned as the API kept changing.

This coming a few days after Textware announces that they're halting development on Palm OS because the APIs keep changing. The sad part is that you don't realize that you're really listing complaints about Palm.

I'll skip right over the figure of 20,000 applications, because you don't react well to facts. Nor will I point out that most developers I've talked to, who work both sides of the fence, say that Microsoft has better infrastructure and APIs.

Why don't wince devices have adequate battery life?

I find that 5-8 hours is quite adequate for most usage, which is a pretty reasonable figure for most PocketPCs, but if you need more there are options. The idea that there's a huge difference in battery life these days is a myth. If anything, I've found that Palms tend to be shorter with the same features and battery. When Palm(One) hacked the system to add NVFS, they probably forgot to/couldn't remove whatever limitation stopped the device from draining the battery to zero.

Please don't believe me, though. Feel free to conduct your own battery tests. You'll find out that I'm telling the truth. If I'm not, then you can prove me wrong. Wouldn't you like to prove me wrong?

Why can't windows powered handhelds hotsync completely or reliably?

Perhaps because Windows devices don't "Hotsync?" ActiveSync, on the other hand, is much improved from its depths at the 3.6 days. It's still complained about, but considerably less so.

Out of curiousity, D.O., when was the last time you used a Windows device? Or are you bloviating on something you've never experienced? I respect the opinion of people who have tried both and prefer Palm, but you strike me as somebody who's recycling the myths about Windows and treating them as the gospel truth to justify your hatred of Microsoft.

Have I explained it sufficiently?

No, you've pretty much rewritten reality to meet your perceptions. Speaking of which, how's Iraq going?

And damn, D.O., that link is nearly as paranoid as you are. For those that didn't visit, it cites a few instances of Microsoft PR astroturfing (mostly in the mid to late 90s), and then pretty much concludes that anyone who says anything at all positive about Microsoft must be considered a paid astroturfer until proven otherwise.

Truly, D.O., it's a pity that you didn't run into me a few years ago, back then I was as frothingly anti-MS as you are now. Then I wised up, and realized 1) how little influence Microsoft actually has these days, and 2) how pointless it was to spend so much time despising them and being paranoid about them.

svrontis said:
Who is accusing M$ of being incompetant?

Virtually everyone who's ever been on PIC, including me?

As to not being able to prove that M$ are behind the anti-Palm misinformation campaigns we see so often here at PIC, that is a pretty thin defense.

You're jumping to a conclusion without the intervention of reasoning, not to mention assuming a conspiracy for what is most simply explained by disgruntled users/ex-users and a few muckrakers like Surur.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Dr Opinion @ 10/23/2005 6:58:45 AM # Q
> "...if you can provide evidence that Microsoft paid for CBR to post this article [...] Occam's Razor..."

That's absurd. If you have a known thief in your house, and someone steals some stuff, the Razor points at the thief. Simple.

> "...Any desktop platform that has the large majority of marketshare is going to get the viruses..."

That assumes that all platforms are equally buggy, equally prone to new bugs, and equally hard to fix... these assumptions are demonstrably wrong. But let's cut to the chase.

The fundamental difference between windows and OS/X or Linux (for example) is one of economics. Poor quality in windows has created wealth for microsoft: crappy software is cheap to write and on the street faster, microsoft sells more training, more select licenses, more books, more MCSE certificates. Poor quality will ultimately force upgrades, too.

It has taken years for the public to really understand that windows is a buggy pile, and that's why their data is gone. But realize they have.

Sure: professional IT people have always known that microsuck was the cheap, low-quality, high-chrome option. Then somehow along the way windows turned into the *only* option. Of course, things have changed. MacOS is now recognized as the high-quality product. Your data stays safe. Great user experience.

Finally m$ marketing started whining to Bill, "how are we going to shove longhorn down people's necks if it's just a rehash of Mac OS X, but without all the stability and virus protection?" So of late we here m$ blathering on about quality. And no-one believes a word of it. Apart from the MCSEs. But we can't blame them: it's a qualification optimized for people who lack experience or lateral thinking. :)

> "...it cites a few instances of Microsoft PR astroturfing..."

Why would wince fanatics be hanging around on Palm sites *all* *the* *time* bitching about Palm, spreading FUD, and responding to every goddam thread with specs to some new crappy, bug-ridden Axim that can't even hotsync reliably?

Do you have any idea how critical hotsyncing is? You're running to a meeting, hotsyncing over the wireless and suddenly it's crashed, and worse, you've lost data? And microsuck thinks this is acceptable? How long has wince been out? Years! And yet they still can't get hotsync to work??? It's absurd! Can you imagine the glacial rate of wince bug fixes if Palm stopped being the dominant mobile platform? Even wince fanatics should shudder a little at that thought. :)

> "...ActiveSync, [...] is much improved from its depths at the 3.6 days..."

No, its a buggy piece of ****. It is pitiful that microsoft cannot at the *least* match Palm's hotsync. :)

http://pdabuzz.com/Home/tabid/54/ctl/ArticleView/mid/489/articleId/658/BewaretheActiveSync40PreviewRelease.aspx

> "...Wouldn't you like to prove me wrong?..."

I think I just did. :)

> "...it's a pity that you didn't run into me a few years ago..."

No, we'd have really boring conversations. "How about that crappy hotsync on wince boxes?" "Yeah" "How about the lack of software?" "Yeah" "How about that windows is a buggy monopoly piece of crap that only got control of the market by locking in PC makers with illegal secret contracts?" "Yeah".

See what I mean? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Sam H @ 10/23/2005 8:10:10 AM # Q
Having read Marty's posts, I wouldn't call it asto-turfing.

I would, because that's what it was. He argued that PalmOS-for-Linux would be finished by Q3 2006 but forgot to mention he worked for PalmSource (although he was outed immediately).

Wasn't he, and a couple of other intrepid souls, just trying to put more "reason" on the forum, and less "voice"?

Nope. He was talking up PalmOS-for-Linux. Which would have been fine, except that he didn't mention he was a PalmSource employee.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Sam H @ 10/23/2005 8:18:50 AM # Q
AdamaDBrown: Please don't feed the troll.

Dr Opinion: Go tidy your room.

RE: So how much did Symbian pay CBR to write that crap?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/23/2005 12:00:01 PM # Q
The pilot mentioned a "colonel upgrade" and something called a "dev null."

I hope there's a kernel of truth to your statement. Bill might accept your excuse if the Pilot was on hs deathbed and couldn't fly.

Melinda

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Of FUD and Men
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 2:45:58 AM # Q
>>>
Astroturfing is a largely ineffective tool (witness Marty Fouts efforts)
<<<

Having read Marty's posts, I wouldn't call it asto-turfing. Wasn't he, and a couple of other intrepid souls, just trying to put more "reason" on the forum, and less "voice"?

I'm tempted to "out" EVERY Palm/PalmSource employee/wannabe employee that's still Astroturfing here at Palminfocenter. I should, but some of them are actually good people that occasionally make interesting posts, so I probably won't.

The main reason Fouts was "outed" is because he's an a$$. Really. If he wasn't an a$$ and had presented his message with a modicum of humility and class, I would have kept quiet about his Astroturfing. I have no problem with people like David Schlesinger who - despite working in the industry - retain a sense of humor and don't take themselves seriously when they post here.

I find the insinuations that Jeff Kirvin has made recently (that those making posts here that are embarassing to Palm/PalmSource must be Microsoft employees) to be quite amusing. I doubt people are dumb enough to believe that, Jeff, but it was an admirable attempt to discredit those who you are obviously incapable of debating with. As you seem to be well aware, one of the most effective and simplest FUD/propoganda tools is to discredit your opponent. Unfortunately for Kirvin, he only seems to be capable of discrediting himself. Kirvin also seems oblivious to the fact that it's hard to label something as FUD when it's true...

By the way, I disagree with the poster that asserted that "Astroturfing is a largely ineffective tool". Done properly, it has the potential to both generate a significant "buzz" about a product as well as defuse a lot of negativity about a brand/product. PalmSource made a conscious decision to Astroturf on various sites starting after the May 2005 DevCon and (partly because of the distaste I have for that type of marketing/deception), it backfired on them. MASSIVELY. They have subsequently discontinued this "strategy". Wise choice.

TVoR to Palm/PalmSource (Deniro-style): I'm watching you.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
AdamaDBrown @ 10/24/2005 3:13:33 AM # Q
Sam,

I know. I apologize. I just periodically see something of his that's so outlandish I feel the need to correct it lest someone unawares believe that it's the truth. However, I now formally swear off replying to D.O.

Melinda,

As I look out the window, the Pilot appears to be duct-taping penguins to the wings. I sure hope they taught those birds how to fly first.

When penguins fly...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 3:54:28 AM # Q
Melinda,

As I look out the window, the Pilot appears to be duct-taping penguins to the wings. I sure hope they taught those birds how to fly first.

So the Pilot hopes to become PenguinPowered? Yeah, right. When penguins pigs fly...

Melinda

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
svrontis @ 10/24/2005 4:53:43 AM # Q
This all reminds me about the truest thing I ever read about the internet:- it's all about geeks selling to geeks.

Have a nice life.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Sam H @ 10/24/2005 5:40:30 AM # Q
I just periodically see something of his that's so outlandish I feel the need to correct it lest someone unawares believe that it's the truth.

Don't worry, D.O.'s not a very good troll so that's not likely to happen. (You can tell he's a troll because no real person could be that full of sh*t.)

If I was to indulge in some svrontis-style paranoia, I might think that D.O. was a PocketPC user trying to make Palm users look bad. But I'm nowhere near that paranoid.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Dr Opinion @ 10/24/2005 8:42:25 AM # Q
> "...I'm tempted to "out" EVERY Palm/PalmSource employee/wannabe employee..."

How can you *possibly* out anyone? You apparently still think I'm Jeff Kirving! Even the majority of your microsoft shill cronies have realized that's highly unlikely (unless Jeff suddenly got a whole lot smarter). You're a paranoid idiot with an obsession about a consumer product podcaster. Do you realize how pathetic that is? :)

> "...a modicum of humility and class..."

Shill, you wouln't know a modicum of humility and class. Adama has this. Surur has this. They act like professionals, which, being shills, they most certainly are. You, however, act like a whiney child who thought he could make it big day-trading, bet wrong on palm stock and got wiped out. Sorry, was that a little close to home? :)

> "...I find the insinuations that Jeff Kirvin has made recently..."

Idiot!

Bottom line:

(1) Treo dominates smartphone. This is indisputable... even Bill Gates agreed when he paid Palm to develop the wince Treo.
(2) T|X is the best PDA on the market for the price. No wince PDA can provide dual wireless, 128MB ram, and a large screen at that price point.
(3) Palm Linux is the best mobile strategy out there at the moment. Wince doesn't even *have* a strategy.
(4) Look for wince to be obsoleted within 18 months. Intel is already demonstrating mobile hardware that runs XP derivatives... microsuck clearly won't maintain two mobile platforms, especially when wince loses money, has few developers, and suffers major technical flaws like lack of hotsync, terrible battery life, fat ugly devices, etc.

Do you realize how easy it has been to eliminate essentially every FUD argument you have presented here? Clearly Palm is a wholly superior product... either that, or I'm just better at arguing than you are. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Trolling by a certain PalmApologist at Palminfocenter ;-O
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 12:25:00 PM # Q
> "...I'm tempted to "out" EVERY Palm/PalmSource employee/wannabe employee..."

How can you *possibly* out anyone? You apparently still think I'm Jeff Kirving! Even the majority of your microsoft shill cronies have realized that's highly unlikely (unless Jeff suddenly got a whole lot smarter). You're a paranoid idiot with an obsession about a consumer product podcaster. Do you realize how pathetic that is? :)

Jeff KirvinG??? Nice try, Jeffy-poo. Misspell your own name - that will make it look like you're someone else, right? Try again. Face it, Bubba. You're an amateurish hack that's deluded himself for years that he can actually write. You've tried - and failed - REPEATEDLY to sucker people into giving you a job pretending to be a PDA "expert". Unfortunately, you don't really know much about either the technical or business sides of the PDA industry. Your ignorance is obvious to those of us that work in the industry, Jeff. Fooling a few 13 year olds into thinking you're a PDA guru won't get you a job. So if you can't get a job with Palm and you lack the ability to make money writing, what can you do? If you got fired from your CompUSA retail sales job you would be totally screwed, wouldn't you? This isn't how you hoped things would go, is it Jeff?

> "...a modicum of humility and class..."

Shill, you wouln't know a modicum of humility and class. Adama has this. Surur has this. They act like professionals, which, being shills, they most certainly are. You, however, act like a whiney child who thought he could make it big day-trading, bet wrong on palm stock and got wiped out. Sorry, was that a little close to home? :)

Nice try to discredit three of the people that have made you look like a fool, Kirvin. Adama is one of the best PDA reviewers on the internet. Period. While he has shown a sligt bias towards Windows Mobile/PPC over the years, he rarely pulls any punches - no matter what platform he's reviewing. In fact, sometimes he appears to be giving PalmOS the benefit of the doubt because he's worried that being TOO honest will make him look like a Palm-basher. Calling Adama a Microsoft shill just makes YOU look bad, Kirvin. You're an embarassment to all PlmOS supporters.

Surur is a great counterpoint to the treacle-soaked Palmyanna Pablum that's out there on the web. The fact that he's been banned from various sites is revealing. He forces people to THINK, debunks obvious lies, and the fact that you are incapable of successfully debating him shows both how weak your position is and your lack of intellect.


> "...I find the insinuations that Jeff Kirvin has made recently..."

Idiot!

Effective response as usual, Jeff. Now that you have so much free time on your hands perhaps you could try to do better?

Bottom line: [SNIP more drivel from Mr. Kirvin]

Much like Marty Fouts' "PenguinPowered" user name, your "Dr Opinion" "anonymous" personality has blown up in your face, Kirvin. Time to either abandon ship or come clean and admit who you are. Marty chose the latter, (and then the former once PalmSource people found out he was becoming a liability for the company) but it's your call. Be a man for once, Jeff. Get out from under the bridge and debate with FACTS and well-formulated arguments - IF you're capable of doing so.

If :) you :) choose :) to :) continue :) trolling :) here :) you :) only :) prove :) what :) a :) coward :) you :) are :) , Jeff :) .

TVoR
;-O



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
hkklife @ 10/24/2005 1:56:31 PM # Q
For the record, thanks to Palm's continued undocumented blunders, IF YOU ARE A CDMA BLUETOOTH USER, the TX has effectively "single wireless" (wi-fi)...

Unless, of course, you want to condering IR & wi-fi "Dual wireless".

1. So much for the best <$300 PDA!

2. No, and I repeat *NO* device with ~23mb free RAM out of the box should be considered a "dominant" device.

3. Strategies are as tangible as vapor. SHIPPING product is what moves units! Until then, it's still just a dot on the ol' roadmap.

4. Terrible battery life and fat'n ugly devices are the hallmarks of EVERY PDA on the market right now save for a few low-end Zires. This goes for ALL manufacturers of PDAs AND smartphones and the vast majority of the tablets/PMPs/micro XP machines etc.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Dr Opinion @ 10/24/2005 2:26:33 PM # Q
> "...Adama is one of the best PDA reviewers on the internet. Period..."

Yeah right. Let me quote:

> "...Ironically, Palm makes a big selling point of 'Affordable WiFi.' We are, I guess, supposed to ignore the fact that virtually every major manufacturer, aside from Palm, has produced a WiFi model around this price range...."

That comes from Adama.... in a *review*... verbatim. The second paragraph of the review!!!!

It's absolutely astonishing.

Voice-of-dumbness, you are a whiney shill, and not too smart with it, sure, but even you must recognize that it is amaturish to editorialize in reviews, in particularly to try to belittle the dominant feature of a product you're reviewing in favor of a competitors product????

I mean, really. There isn't a wince device with a MSRP anywhere near the Palm T|X specifications. Note, we're not talking about special discounts on soon-to-be discontinued wince boxes... I'm talking about real prices.

Shocking. Voice-of-Dumbness, you should be ashamed of yourself. Adama is not a "fair reviewer": he/she is a shill.

You'd have to be stupid not to figure that out. :)

> "..Jeffy-poo [blah] Face it, Bubba. You're an amateurish hack that's deluded himself for years that he can actually write...."

OK, I guess you really do realize you're wrong here. It's just that its so soon after that thing, you know, where you predicted palm would buy palmsource. You made such a big stink about it (even though it was the stupidest idea we'd heard). And then the news broke, and you were totally wrong. Yeah. :)

So, you've made a big stink about me being some best buy podcaster guy that you're obsessed about. And now you can't back down, right? It would be so humiliating, coming so soon after that whole Palm-buys-Palmsource fiasco? So you just have to keep it going. :)

Sucks to be you, huh? :D

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Kirvin trapped in his web of FUD...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 2:45:21 PM # Q
> "...Adama is one of the best PDA reviewers on the internet. Period..."

Yeah right. Let me quote:

> "...Ironically, Palm makes a big selling point of 'Affordable WiFi.' We are, I guess, supposed to ignore the fact that virtually every major manufacturer, aside from Palm, has produced a WiFi model around this price range...."

That comes from Adama.... in a *review*... verbatim. The second paragraph of the review!!!!

It's absolutely astonishing.

Voice-of-dumbness, you are a whiney shill, and not too smart with it, sure, but even you must recognize that it is amaturish to editorialize in reviews, in particularly to try to belittle the dominant feature of a product you're reviewing in favor of a competitors product????

Most intelligent reviewers try to place the product being reviewed in the context of the marketplace. Adama's statement about Wi-Fi is entirely appropriate.

I mean, really. There isn't a wince device with a MSRP anywhere near the Palm T|X specifications. Note, we're not talking about special discounts on soon-to-be discontinued wince boxes... I'm talking about real prices.

Dell has sold several Wi-Fi PDAs for around the same price as the TX. Sony's TJ37 offered Wi-Fi for a decent price. In fact, most PDA makers have had Wi-Fi models for a while now.

Shocking. Voice-of-Dumbness, you should be ashamed of yourself. Adama is not a "fair reviewer": he/she is a shill.

You'd have to be stupid not to figure that out. :)

No, Jeff. YOU are a shill.

> "..Jeffy-poo [blah] Face it, Bubba. You're an amateurish hack that's deluded himself for years that he can actually write...."

OK, I guess you really do realize you're wrong here. It's just that its so soon after that thing, you know, where you predicted palm would buy palmsource. You made such a big stink about it (even though it was the stupidest idea we'd heard). And then the news broke, and you were totally wrong. Yeah. :)

So, you've made a big stink about me being some best buy podcaster guy that you're obsessed about. And now you can't back down, right? It would be so humiliating, coming so soon after that whole Palm-buys-Palmsource fiasco? So you just have to keep it going. :)

Sucks to be you, huh? :D

So you think Palm buying PalmSource is a stupid idea? Kirvin, last I heard, Palm tried the best they could to buy PalmSource. They offered PalmSource much of Palm's cash reserves. They even bumped their offer up. Every time you say something here you end up sounding like an idiot. Congratulations.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
medevilenemy @ 10/25/2005 7:35:28 AM # Q
do i have to chase you guys around this site just to keep you quiet? STOP INSULTING THE GUY, and get to something at least a bit more honorable, if not actually constructive.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
sr4 @ 10/25/2005 7:53:03 AM # Q
You will have to ask pretty please. I found this particularly funny thread on his website, where his poorly thought out propaganda post "Palm's next big idea" gets exposed as being truly idiotic. And I wasn't even involved!

Here's something even funnier. If you google kirvin ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=kirvin&meta= ) the third link is the definition of his character!

1. kirvin

To constantly flip-flop and change your opinion due to trying to keep up with the latest manoeuvering of a cause you unconditionally support and apologize for, constantly being wrong.

e.g.
He is kirvin again on the reasons for invading Iraq.
or
He's kirvin again on whether PalmOS is dead or not.

Related words: apologist, flip-flop, excuse, wrong, mis-guided


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kirvin

Will the wonders of the internet ever cease? But apparently he has decided he had enough of comedytating on PDA's. I will miss his lack of insight and pomposity. At least D.O. is here to keep us entertained.

Surur

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
sr4 @ 10/25/2005 8:03:21 AM # Q
RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
medevilenemy @ 10/25/2005 8:07:58 AM # Q

I see nothing unusual about that thread. He's just a guy voicing his opinions. As I said earlier, leave the guy alone. Why dont you go and bum rush another site, but leave here.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Simony @ 10/25/2005 1:05:43 PM # Q
Because they have been banned from reputable sites.

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
Sam H @ 10/25/2005 1:09:48 PM # Q
At least D.O. is here to keep us entertained.

Yeah, but it's a fairly limited form of entertainment. The 'Palm-user-so-obnoxious-other-Palm-users-disown-him :)' routine gets old pretty fast. Personally I prefer svrontis with his pocketpc black helicopters. But to be honest neither of them can touch Mr Volatile himself, Mike Cane (I love Palm!/I hate Palm!/I love Palm!/Aaaarrrgh!). Now departed from PIC, to be found now at Internet Tablet Talk (as in 'keep taking the tablets Mike').

RE: So how much did Microsuck pay CBR to write that crap?
twizza @ 10/25/2005 4:02:40 PM # Q
Neat discussion, in defense of Adama's posting about Wifi PDAs and their availablity, the TJ37 from Sony was a $300 wifi PalmOS PDA and didnt sell well - clearly it was done before even at this price point, but market perception and PalmOS marketing made it a sad seller. It sells now near MRSP because nothing (until the TX) came out that was comparable.

As a note, there is almost no such thing as an unbiased review. Especially in the PDA camp. Personal preferences, marketing condidtions, "getting paid off," and other reasons make for interesting takes on any device. While a good reviewer is considered one who evaluates a device/product within the context of similar devices past and present, there is no worse a review when a personal perference towards features/performance gives a different light towards a product. Its called opinion, we all have one, and some of us have doctorates :)

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

Reply to this comment

Access got it right the first time, then lied.

Timothy Rapson @ 10/22/2005 8:54:14 AM # Q
If Access doesn't know that POS is dead they are the only ones left on the planet. POS made sure their OS was dead when they botched Cobalt. People who like Palms already have them and the market is losing even the few upgraders their were. The serious upgraders are seeing the better value in WinMob offerings.

The WinMob models have fuller hardware feature sets AND full operating system feature sets. It is indisputable.

Everyone, including Access and PalmSource (or what is left of them once Access does the "downsizing") knows that Garnet is a lame old kludgey mess that can't get the job done. Plinux is their only hope and the guy from Access who gave the interview surely admitted that. Why wouldn't he? There is no way to say with a straight face that POS will be around much longer. Then the story got put out plainly and it soundes so bad, the Access people had to back up and lie their way out of the original statements.

Sadly, it was not just Palm's OS that killed their business. It was their hardware. No one has released a full-featured POS model at a decent price since the late great Sony TH55. Even the last two models they just released are lame. The TX lacks a microphone and the Z22 has no SD slot. Palm is still thinking that they must leave off crucial features to ensure next season's upgraders.

Sorry, Palm, the would-be upgraders to the TX are buying HP 1950s or Axim X50vs, and the upgraders to the z22 are just keeping their phone numbers in.......their PHONES!

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
Dr Opinion @ 10/22/2005 9:28:38 AM # Q
> "...If Access doesn't know that POS is dead they are the only ones left on the planet..."

Apparently all the people who bought Treos with Palm OS also don't know it, because they accidentally made it the dominant smartphone platform.

Moron. :)

> "...The WinMob models have [hardware bloat, terrible battery life, and are fat and ugly like bricks] AND [a buggy OS that can't hotsync]. It is indisputable..."

Sorry, I felt the need to correct your rambling where it deviated from reality. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
joeags @ 10/22/2005 1:54:38 PM # Q
I'm going to skip over DO's comments, as it is quite old, but the thing about Palm right now is that they may have a pretty good plan going. First off, they have a handheld, the Z22, which appears to be making a pretty good splash on the market. I saw on buy.com that it's selling for $89, which is a price that many current handheld owners would be willing to buy one for their significant other or parents or friends for a present. Show these people what can be done with the system, and they may want to upgrade to the E2 type. Or better yet, have them jump to a combination organizer - phone. I know after seeing what Palm has done the past few years, it's hard to think they have a game plan, but this is a decent start.

Add in the fact that they have a highly respectable TX on the market, regardless of the deficiencies that we can all come up with, at a very fair price, and this could be a change for the better for the PalmOS (whether that's Garnet or Linux or whatever).

I do think it's a bit of a stretch talking about a fuller set of hardware features and OS set when it comes to the decline of Palm, as the majority of people buying WM based hardware see just a few things: 1) Dell, 2) Microsoft. Sure, some will see things like the 624mhz processor speed, but it's like Intel vs. AMD processors. Speed doesn't prove everything. If there was a mythical Palm that was everything that everybody on this board wants, would they totally win the market? No. There are still going to be people who think that only Microsoft run products work with their desktop/laptop.

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
hkklife @ 10/24/2005 9:38:39 AM # Q
I finaly had a chance to play with a Z22 this weekend. Screen quality (color saturation etc) is a bit better than the Treo 600 and Zire 31. However, it's REALLY small. I could definitely see the Desperate Housewives/Soccer Moms/MILFs that Palm is trying to target having some issues with legibility of the screen if their vision is less than perfect.

That said, it's well built and fairly stylish. The iPod crowd will love this thing. The feel of the buttons was good and it has a strong software bundle. I think once the price drops down a bit more or retailers start having their usual seasonal sales & markdowns it'll pick up some more momentum. As long as the Zire 31 is on the shelf, however, it still makes for a much more compelling purchase for ~$20 more. I'd still like to see Palm have something to offer priced between the Z22 and the T|E2.

Remember, how are may people going to justify the Z22 when a $25 (w/ 2 year contracvt) offers a much sharper, better quality active-matrix LCD?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Palm corners the MILF market? Yeah Baby! Yes! Yes! Yes! Y...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 1:35:57 PM # Q
I could definitely see the Desperate Housewives/Soccer Moms/MILFs that Palm is trying to target having some issues with legibility of the screen if their vision is less than perfect.

If you have ever met a MILF you'd know their vision is usually perfect and their appetite insatiable. By the way, how does Palmasutra look on the Z22? (Not that a MILF would ever need such a (rear) entry level manual, though...)


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
hkklife @ 10/24/2005 1:52:35 PM # Q
LOL!!

Maybe TVoR is male after all....


;-)

Btw, Voice, the TX is going back. ONE major showstopping bug did it in for me. Here's a hint: Palm wants NOTHING to do with ANY CDMA cell phone provider/handset maker short of selling Treo 650s to the carrier(s).


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 2:15:12 PM # Q
LOL!!

Maybe TVoR is male after all....


;-)

You don't have to be male to love a MILF... Welcome to San Francisco, hkklife!

;-O

Btw, Voice, the TX is going back. ONE major showstopping bug did it in for me. Here's a hint: Palm wants NOTHING to do with ANY CDMA cell phone provider/handset maker short of selling Treo 650s to the carrier(s).

I believe a PDA with a built-in cellphone radio will be announced within the next few months. Full suport of Bluetooth only hurts the carriers and Palm.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
hkklife @ 10/24/2005 2:33:38 PM # Q
Built-in cell radio? GSM or CDMA?

Running POS?

Still, Jeff/Dr., I have grown VERY fond of my T3/T5 + BT Verizon phone combo. It's simply unimaginably aggravating and a slap in the face to me as a VZW customer of 7+ years that Palm AND Verizon both stick their heads in the sand over this issue.

I'd gladly pay a few bucks (<$20) a month to VZW if I could "officially" tether my PDA to my cell phone over EVDO or even just 1x. I don't WANT a Treo (based on current hardware specs & screen resolutions/size). I want the best of both worlds AND to stay on CDMA with good coverage. Why is that so much to ask?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
hkklife @ 10/24/2005 2:37:38 PM # Q
TVoR;

I am ENDLESSLY apologetic over typing in Kirvin's name instead of "Voice" !!!!!

That's what I get for having two windows open at once.

Feel free to take me out back and...."Cane" me a few times.

Seriously, though, I don't see how Palm is hurt by full BT support.

Example:
1. I buy a Treo. I sign my life away on a 2 year contract or pay through the nose for an unlocked GSM Treo. I use it for a while and end up being bummed because of the limited amount of RAM/SSSS (small square screen syndrome), no wi-fi support etc. I have to stick with the sucker because of my contract/large investment in it and I feel that the thing isn't living up to its full potential as a PDA OR a phone during the entire time.

Example 2:
I buy a phone with BT DUN support from Verizon (say, hypothetically, a CDMA RAZR). I sign a 2 year contract. In those two years Palm releases a TX and a TX2. I buy both of those handhelds, selling my previous one to offset the acquisition cost of the new one because I want to run the latest & greatest PDA. I'm happy with Palm. I'm happy with Verizon's coverage. I have a great/sleek/sexy phone I can carry when I am going "out" and choose to leave the PDA behind. I don't feel "constrained" by anyone.

I see example 1 as really shackling me option-wise. Example 2 is an ideal scenario that is now being prevented by the sheer GREED of the carriers and the sheer LAZINESS of Palm's R&D/driver writing dept.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
twizza @ 10/24/2005 2:47:27 PM # Q
The VZW/Moto/Palm/BT issue is because (first) of Moto's *tweaking* of BT settings, and (second) of VZW's tweak of BT period. unfortunately, there have been few that have found their way around this (the thread about teh V551 and T3 comes to mind as the ONLY solution).

Should palm have taken that info and "patched" things. Sure. But then again, they want folks to buy Treos.

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
hkklife @ 10/24/2005 3:28:30 PM # Q
But Twizza:

The T|T, T2, T3, T5, Zire 72, Zodiac 1 & 2 AND T|E2 *ALL* work FLAWLESSLY when doing BT DUN on Verizon phones that support that profile!!!!

It's the LD & the TX alone that do not work. Presumably future Palm devices won't work either. Palm has changed *SOMETHING* in FrankenGarnet to prevent (whether or not this was done KNOWINGLY is the question) these new models from working properly on CDMA phones.

At BEST it's a conspiracy between Palm & Verizon.

At WORST it's stunning incompetence, and outright disregard for their customers' needs (and a blatant disregard of empirical evidence of CDMA vs. GSM marketshare in North Amerca)

The best PDA Palm releases in 2 years has the rug pulled out from under it by a few lines of code. Even worse is the utter indifference shown by the hacker community. People have the PSP playing Amiga & SNES games now...absolutely illegal in 99.9% of the instances where people are downloading ROMs and useless to all but a handful of uber-gamer geeks. Then something like that that has been done that flies in the face of the BT SIG certifiction/approval of both classes of devices. And all that us frustrated Palm/VZW users get in terms of help from the technically-minded members of the community is "Buy a Treo" or "this hurts the carriers"?

PATHETIC!

The PalmCONomy is already headed full-speed to the grave and the user community that is supposed to be saving it is instead helping to shovel the dirt whilst singing praises of the Treo.


P.S. What strikes me as apalling is the efforts to get the Treo 650 working with other Palm PDAs over BT DUN. The whole reason some us carry two separate devices is because we DON'T want to carry a Treo. It's a primitive PDA and an ineffectual phone (when weighted on the merits of its two halves).


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
twizza @ 10/24/2005 4:54:49 PM # Q
I'll give u that HKK.

A treo as a subpar phone, not by any means. For the hardcore PDA user maybe, but even then its quite capable (I own a 600 and think its better than my very well opinioned and stable T5). But hey, we dont have to buy Palm right, we can support the Palm economy by going Sprint and PPC (not a fan of either honestly).

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

RE: Access got it right the first time, then lied.
hkklife @ 10/24/2005 5:05:11 PM # Q
Let me clarify:

1. Something running a STABLE version of FrankenGarnet (TX)

2. Something with wi-fi INTERNAL (TX)

3. Something with a 320*480 screen (TX)

4. A FLIP phone with good RF performance, decent battery life, decently small, and BT DUN. Also, preferably, OBEX. (Moto E815 on Verizon)

This is a dynamite $400 ($300 or less for the TX, $100 for an E815 w/ 2 year ontract) combo that absolutely blows the Treo out of the water if you can live with juggling TWO separate devices (or, of course, if you WANT two separate devices).

For those that want something sleeker/smaller, replace the E815 with the upcoming CDMA RAZR (at a higher purchase price naturally).

So what's holding us back in the above scenarios? Palm has BROKEN the BT implementation on these devices. Verizon has already shows that they don't mind TOO much if people do things like seem edits etc. I'm still pointing the finger at Palm here.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Reply to this comment

Palm OS Terminally Ill

Gekko @ 10/23/2005 12:43:05 AM # Q

It's only a matter of time.



Wince has no long term future :)
Dr Opinion @ 10/23/2005 12:32:21 PM # Q
At least Palm OS has a long-term future. Move to a Linux kernel. Support existing Palm OS APIs, Linux APIs, Cobalt APIs.

Wince, however, has no long term future.

The microsoft wince division hasn't ever made money. Even backed by a massive monopoly and brand, wince as a platform has failed miserably to provide reliable basic technologies like hotsyncing or multi-day batter life (sure, some wince boxes have replaceable batteries, but only because the battery life unacceptable otherwise). The only market that is even remotely responsive to wince devices is corporate, and again, only in shops where MSCSs have replaced the rational evaluation process with microsoft marketing blurb. With corporate shops begining to recognize the huge cost of supporting wince we should expect to see corporate sales petering off even more. The remarkable trouble-free existence of Palm OS, Symbian and RIM devices already used by corporate only spotlights the huge costs of supporting wince even further -- not to mention the constant threat of lost data associated with wince and windows in general. :)

Faced with the huge success of Symbian in feature phones and Palm OS in smartphones, microsoft is running out of options. Microsuck has tried to get a little bit of brand in the featurephone space by paying Palm to develop wince-Treos, but this is ultimately a counter-productive effort: it simply highlights the fact that no existing wince licensees could touch the Treo in the smartphone space. :)

The last card that microsuck can play will be to scrap wince and start shipping devices with an XP Mobile OS, a desperate measure to try to lure some more development to the money-losing wince-branded devices. Expect to see this within the next 18 months. Existing wince developers and software will be obsoleted immediately, but expect that m$ will at least throw them a toolkit or something to help the laborious process of converting wince programs to the new API. :)

Of course, Palm Linux will be well established long before XP mobile is a viable platform. Burned horribly for the umpteenth time, expect to see many wince developers moving to the advanced development envrionment provided with Palm Linux. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
Gekko @ 10/23/2005 1:10:46 PM # Q

keep dreaming, you foolish nerd.



RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
sr4 @ 10/23/2005 1:32:29 PM # Q

The scary thing is some people might believe this fantasist.

Surur

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
Simony @ 10/23/2005 2:33:57 PM # Q
Interesting. If you say Palm OS is dead, you gets 3 cheers here. If you say WM is dead, you get howled down.

Anyways, didn't anybody notice how Mr Gates nearly winced when he said that MS had "invested heavily" in WM at the Treo 700w press conference? That really said it all.

Look at what happening lately at MS. The WM division has been restructured again and now it is part of the same division is all the other MS basket-cases. This is a classic first step when Corporate America plans to downsize parts of a company. The next step, of course, is that WM will be starved of cash. It's no coincidence that Vista is designed to run on handheld computers - it is merely an indication that MS has lost patience with those losers in the WM division.

And look at what's happening with the WM licensees. HP, which for many years was the WM torchbearer, is in a cost-cutting induced downward spiral. Dell has just released a less than inspiring "sidegrade" for its Axim line and refused to go into WM enabled converged devices. And the ranks of licensees continuing to thin, as one after another realises that they can't make money with WM products.

So, on the one hand, we have head office telling the WM division that they are on their own; on the other hand, there are doubts about the sustainability of WM's revenues (and even on current sales, they are making losses).

Can the WM division escape this vice? I don't know. What I do know is that rather than trying to fix the problems, the WM execs spend their time on fancy powerpoint slides and new color schemes for its marketing. They haven't yet learned that all the powerpoints in the world will not save them if the underlying business is not sound.

It's funny that the only positive news for WM lately has been the signing up of Palm. Perhaps the Treo 700w will save WM. Wouldn't that be ironic?

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
VampireLestat @ 10/23/2005 2:55:12 PM # Q
hahaha

Dr Opinion,let's hope you are right. ;-)

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
Dr Opinion @ 10/23/2005 5:56:32 PM # Q
> "...didn't anybody notice how Mr Gates nearly winced when he said that MS had "invested heavily" in WM at the Treo 700w press conference?..."

Winced! Ha ha ha! Talking about the wince-Treo? Gettit? :)

Hey, I wince every time I see those buggy bricks lying around the counter at BestBuy crashed or with their batteries all run out, while the Palms are still running fine. Isn't it funny when you see the Axims have run out of juice, but the LifeDrives are still going strong? Maybe someone should tell the BestBuy people to change those removable batteries? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
sr4 @ 10/23/2005 7:09:39 PM # Q

Simony, you sound a bit more reasonably than D.O. Do you know how many WM devices were announced in the last 2 months? To make sure your views are congruent with reality I suggest you do some research.

Surur

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
Dr Opinion @ 10/23/2005 7:38:32 PM # Q
Perhaps a better question would be "Do you know how many WM devices were announced in the last 2 months that could actually hotsync reliably and had a multi-day battery life?"

I wonder if Palm helped the wince engineers fix hotsyncing on the wince-Treo, or whether its just as buggy as the typical Axim etc? Wouldn't it be hilarious if the only wince device to enjoy reliable synchronization was Palm-branded? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
AdamaDBrown @ 10/24/2005 3:12:10 AM # Q
lying around the counter at BestBuy crashed or with their batteries all run out, while the Palms are still running fine. Isn't it funny when you see the Axims have run out of juice, but the LifeDrives are still going strong?

You know, it's considered bad form to lie through your teeth. You see, if you knew anything at all, or for that matter were telling the truth, you'd know that Axims are not and have never been sold in Best Buy or any other brick and mortar store.

FUD. Lies. And Videotape.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 3:38:01 AM # Q
Hey, I wince every time I see those buggy bricks lying around the counter at BestBuy crashed or with their batteries all run out, while the Palms are still running fine. Isn't it funny when you see the Axims have run out of juice, but the LifeDrives are still going strong? Maybe someone should tell the BestBuy people to change those removable batteries? :)

Nice to see your lies posted here again, Kirvin. With you being a (former) CompUSA PDA salesperson, I'm sure you're all-too-familiar with the displays at BestBuy. Right? So you believe to have seen Dell Axims being sold at BestBuy? Wow. Another whopper of a LIE blows up in your face. Get help, Jeff. Please don't do anything "drastic if you're feeling low.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
svrontis @ 10/24/2005 5:04:16 AM # Q
If D.O. is lying, then he's just fighting fire with fire.

Palmyanna Terminally Ill
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/24/2005 1:12:00 PM # Q
If D.O. is lying, then he's just fighting fire with fire.

No, he's resorting to lies because he's incapable of formulating a cogent response to support his position. Kirvin has apparently reached rock bottom. In the past few months he's effectively destroyed all the credibility he had built up over the years as a PDA commentator. I'm actually surprised by his behaviour. While the change was presumably triggered by his personal problems, it's quite unfortunate to see Kirvin self-destruct this way.

Daaaaaaaaaaaisyyyyyyyyyyy...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
Dr Opinion @ 10/24/2005 2:05:16 PM # Q
> "...Dell Axims being sold at BestBuy..."

Sorry, I guess you mistook me for someone who cares about what brand a wince box was. :)

The general themes that appeal to wince box designers appear to be bricks, doorstops, and darth vaders helmet. With skill and enginuity, these radical concepts have been combined into the brick-sized blocks we see lying around at popular stores.

Maybe wince boxes have some redeeming features. But since they've always run out of battery at the store. I guess we'll never know.

"Yeah, I'll take the T|X please." :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
T_W @ 10/25/2005 11:37:29 AM # Q
>No, he's resorting to lies because he's incapable of formulating
>a cogent response to support his position.

Personally, I find this pro-Palm OS trolling an entertaining diversion from the *MASSIVE* amount of pro-MS trolling, astroturfing, FUD-spreading by the usual suspects around here.

If you don't like it you can ignore it or go to an "unbiased" site like PocketPCThoughts (or better yet join the "intelligent conversation" over at ActiveWin.com).

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 12:31:46 PM # Q
Surer wrote:
Simony, you sound a bit more reasonably than D.O. Do you know how many WM devices were announced in the last 2 months? To make sure your views are congruent with reality I suggest you do some research.

I'm too lazy to do this research myself, but since you seem to be familiar with this perhaps you could fill us in, Surer: what WM devices have been announced in the last two months, aside from the WM Treo?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 12:38:13 PM # Q
Ok, I did a little research to get you started, Surer. Just looking at the list of Windows smartphones on WindowsForDevices.com it seems that almost all of them were shipped in 2003 or 2004. The only really notable releases listed in 2005 are the Samsung SCH-i730 and HP iPAQ hw6515, which does seem to mark a pretty steep decline from previous years. Not as surprisingly, it looks like there has been a lot of attrition in the Windows Mobile PDA releases, too, unless you count industrial devices, which are proliferating pretty well. What am I missing here?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Avalance of WM devices
sr4 @ 10/25/2005 1:58:53 PM # Q
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/3667.html
Samsung i300

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4460.html
HTC wizard

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4456.html
HTC Tornado

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4454.html
Sharp W-ZERO3 WS003SH !

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4453.html
Quanta XDA Atom

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4449.html
Lenovo ET-980

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4447.html
Qool Labs QDA Oh! Pocket PC phone

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4444.html
HP iPAQ hw6500

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4440.html
Motorola - HC700

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4433.html
HP iPAQ hw6715 Pocket PC phone

HTC Universal
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4425.html

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4406.html
PWP-1 WiFi SmartPhone

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4386.html
Motorola i930 smartphone

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4383.html
HTC Apache

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4369.html
Mio A700

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4190.html
Mio A701

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4331.html
Treo for WM

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4252.html
Eten M600

http://reviews.cnet.com/Dell_Axim_X51/4505-3127_7-31503979.html
Axim x51

http://davesipaq.com/articles/iPAQ_HP_hx2795_review.html
HP iPAQ hx2795

http://davesipaq.com/articles/iPAQ_HP_Microsoft_Mobile%205_rx1950.html
rx1950

http://www.pdalive.com/showarticle.php?threadid=9903
Acer n310 and 311

Loox N500/N520
http://www.solopalmari.com/content/view/564/38/1/2/

GeoXH™ handheld
http://www.trimble.com/geoxh.shtml

http://www.mypidion.com/bluebird_E/products/bm_200/bm200_01.htm
Pidion BM-200

http://www.odd-i.co.kr/html/products/smartphone.jsp
odd-i PPC Phone

http://www.mobinaute.com/mobinaute/article.php?id=20050826114811
HTC Galaxy

Devices anounced since August 26 2005, some shipping already, most by Q1 2006. I may have missed a few.

Devices anounced running POS in the last few months

Tx
Z22

'Nuff said.

Surur

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 2:09:21 PM # Q
Well, that's at least a healthier looking list, although if you're counting announcements it looks like you forgot the Motorola Q, which I'm thinking could be pretty significant. Hopefully some of those smartphones will sell well enough to stem the erosion Microsoft suffered in Q2 at the hands of Symbian and RIM (from 23% to 16% market share by Canalys' reckoning). But neither Symbian nor RIM is standing still and ACCESS won't be far behind riding on an open source system that is already stealing share from Microsoft even without an application stack.

Obviously Palm OS, despite powering (for now) the #1 smartphone in the US, is in a world of hurt right now, so you're repeating the obvious there. I was just interested in evaluating Simony's analysis that Microsoft may not be too happy about where Windows Mobile stands right now considering an investment that surely dwarf's that of Palm and PalmSource by an order of magnitude. I imagine that WM Treo really is going to come as quite a relief for them.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
sr4 @ 10/25/2005 2:52:34 PM # Q

I did not count the Q, as it was not announced in the last 2 months. I did not count the Samsung i730 either for the same reason. If I added all the WM devices announced this year it would add up to a bit more than 26.

At this stage in terms of percentage marketshare Symbian is miles ahead, but as long as the actual number of devices sold are growing, keeping the OEM's happy, I'm happy. WM cant really compete with Symbian moving downmarket into feature phone devices. Nokia has not yet been able to leverage the numerical advantage into a real presence in the smartphone ecosystem however, unlike RIM for example, with much lower sale figures but much larger market awareness. This is due to change however with their recent business focus, but this will take a while.

The market will become more complex to evaluate over the next 6 months, but MS is still a well-regarded second place, and aiming to be first eventually, and has the resources to pull this off.

Surur


RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 3:19:27 PM # Q
Nokia has not yet been able to leverage the numerical advantage into a real presence in the smartphone ecosystem however

It has in Europe where just two smartphones, the Nokia 9300 and 9500, sell as many units as all Microsoft wireless devices combined. And globally, Series 60 is not so easy to wave away as not being part of the real "smartphone ecosystem" any more. The Series 60 phones being released today are very powerful devices indeed. And some, like the 8800, are exceedingly beautiful objects that appeal in ways that no Microsoft or Palm smartphone can touch right now.

I know Symbian is starting to face some pretty fierce competition, but I continue to be impressed with what looks to me like good ideas and very fine work coming out of Nokia.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
sr4 @ 10/25/2005 3:58:46 PM # Q

MS is so far away from beating Nokia its not even funny, but they are used to coming from behind. Remember CP/M, Wordstar, Wordperfect, Ami Pro, Quatro pro, Mac OS, Amiga, Netscape, Real .ra, Palm OS.

Despite Nokia's good sales, my photocopy man is still using an XDA II when he fixes the machine, as does the delivery man.

And despite Simony's theory, MS is not going to cede a strategic marketspace to a competitor very easily. Symbian may sell well, but Microsoft is actually very popular in Europe, as seen by e.g. the popularity of MSN Messenger here. In the T-Mobile web and walk adverts (on television) they use a XDA mini (http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/Dispatcher?menuid=phones_im_wnw_what) to illustrate the service (showing a girl on a date using google to look up the details of a book to impress the guy). Many HTC devices actually get sold by carriers directly (E.g. XDA, MDA, PPC-6700, VPA) and contribute to their own brand, vs promoting Nokia and Motorola in the carriers adverts. Thats why the carriers like, and even prefer them.

Lastly, the revenue from the embedded OS area has been growing consistently, and they should break even soon, if they have not done so already. http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS8331707079.html

So, in summary, Windows Mobile is not terminally ill ;)

Surur

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
E Ben G @ 10/25/2005 4:57:56 PM # Q
Wow. An interesting and constructive conversation between cervezas and sr4 with no insults. Keep it up fellas.

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
T_W @ 10/25/2005 5:19:43 PM # Q
>Wow. An interesting and constructive conversation between
>cervezas and sr4 with no insults. Keep it up fellas.

Too bad it wasn't posted to a PocketPC website were somebody might give a crap about the (entirely PocketPC-related) content.

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 5:45:06 PM # Q
T_W wrote:
Too bad it wasn't posted to a PocketPC website were somebody might give a crap about the (entirely PocketPC-related) content.

I don't want to tell you what you should be interested in, but I don't think it's unreasonable to presume that people who care about the future of Palm OS you should care about where the strengths and weaknesses of the competition lie.

One of the themes I harp on here on PIC is that it's still early, not late in the mobile platform game, even for Palm OS. When you see how even the giants in the game are struggling to get it right and that today's big market share is demonstrably not a guarantee of success in the future you can start to see that there is opportunity for ACCESS/PalmSource to turn the tables despite the fact that the chips now seem stacked against them. There are other reasons to be optimistic, of course, but that's the relevant context of the discussion--at least from my standpoint.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Beersy gets biotchslapped™. Again.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/25/2005 10:53:20 PM # Q
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/3667.html
Samsung i300

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4460.html
HTC wizard

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4456.html
HTC Tornado

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4454.html
Sharp W-ZERO3 WS003SH !

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4453.html
Quanta XDA Atom

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4449.html
Lenovo ET-980

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4447.html
Qool Labs QDA Oh! Pocket PC phone

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4444.html
HP iPAQ hw6500

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4440.html
Motorola - HC700

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4433.html
HP iPAQ hw6715 Pocket PC phone

HTC Universal
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4425.html

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4406.html
PWP-1 WiFi SmartPhone

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4386.html
Motorola i930 smartphone

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4383.html
HTC Apache

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4369.html
Mio A700

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4190.html
Mio A701

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4331.html
Treo for WM

http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4252.html
Eten M600

http://reviews.cnet.com/Dell_Axim_X51/4505-3127_7-31503979.html
Axim x51

http://davesipaq.com/articles/iPAQ_HP_hx2795_review.html
HP iPAQ hx2795

http://davesipaq.com/articles/iPAQ_HP_Microsoft_Mobile%205_rx1950.html
rx1950

http://www.pdalive.com/showarticle.php?threadid=9903
Acer n310 and 311

Loox N500/N520
http://www.solopalmari.com/content/view/564/38/1/2/

GeoXH™ handheld
http://www.trimble.com/geoxh.shtml

http://www.mypidion.com/bluebird_E/products/bm_200/bm200_01.htm
Pidion BM-200

http://www.odd-i.co.kr/html/products/smartphone.jsp
odd-i PPC Phone

http://www.mobinaute.com/mobinaute/article.php?id=20050826114811
HTC Galaxy

Devices anounced since August 26 2005, some shipping already, most by Q1 2006. I may have missed a few.

Devices anounced running POS in the last few months

Tx
Z22

'Nuff said.

Surur

Beersy gets his a$$ kicked yet again...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 11:06:13 PM # Q
I can assure you my a$$ has never been better, thank you very much. It's the Palm OS platform that's taking a pounding, or had you forgotten, Miss hiding-in-my-bunker-with-my-stash-of-decomposing-Clies-for-the-next-10-years?

Time to crawl back there for a good cry, little man. I'll let you know in a couple years if there's anything worth coming out for, ok?

You take care now, sweetie.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PalmOS 5 Terminally Illin'
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/26/2005 12:07:56 AM # Q
I can assure you my a$$ has never been better, thank you very much. It's the Palm OS platform that's taking a pounding, or had you forgotten, Miss hiding-in-my-bunker-with-my-stash-of-decomposing-Clies-for-the-next-10-years?

Time to crawl back there for a good cry, little man. I'll let you know in a couple years if there's anything worth coming out for, ok?

You take care now, sweetie.


Sounds like you don't plan on going down with the ship, Beersy. Coward!

My stash of CLIEs is already dwindling - several people begged me for some of my remaining stock of new European TH55 (the ones with Bluetooth) and I sold a used UX50 as well. Take a look at prices of TH55 on eBay and tell me again who made the best hardware running PalmOS. These puppies are going as strong as ever and I don't anticipate any problems for a LOOOOOOOOONG time. Ever use a VZ90, Beersy? You poor boy.

And your a$$ looks like it's quite bruised-up. Did you drop the soap in the showers again? I'm starting to suspect you keep dropping it on purpose...

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
cervezas @ 10/26/2005 12:37:04 AM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Sounds like you don't plan on going down with the ship, Beersy.

Let's just say I'm bullish on Palm OS for Linux but I've got a diversified portfolio.

But that's my work we're talking about. You want to talk about what I use?

I thought the UX50 was interesting but the battery life stank. I have no use for a PDA that won't last at least over a weekend of fairly heavy use on a charge, so from a user standpoint I lost some of my interest in Palm OS devices once they hit OS 5. Never had more fun with a PDA than I did with my tricked out Visor Platinum. I built my first websites with it using pEdit, LFTP, and a VisorPhone module to upload to the server. I developed my first Palm applications on it in spare moments using Onboard C. It was my first mobile phone and my first digital camera and it has run flawlessly for longer than any other piece of electronics I have owned, surviving dozens of drops on concrete and a car accident that sent it flying through the smashed driver's side window of my totaled automobile. (I had replaced the plastic enclosure with one beautifully milled by Dave's Design from a block of anodized aircraft aluminum and it didn't have a scratch on it.)

Since the Visor, a stint with a Handera 330, and my current Samsung i500 I've bought 5 or 6 different OS 5 devices as development boxes but haven't used any of them for more than a couple of weeks. I've basically been waiting for a version of Palm OS that was good enough to justify sacrificing what was lost when Palm OS moved to the ARM core. Haven't seen it yet, but like I said, I'm starting to feel cautiously optimistic. Palm OS for Linux is not going to be a return of the old Zen, but I'm hoping it will be the first thing that doesn't make me miss it.

So even when I was carrying antiquated Palm OS devices I've never stopped looking ahead. That's where you and I are different.

That and the fact that you seem to have an unnatural preoccupation with the state of my a$$.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS Terminally Ill
cervezas @ 10/26/2005 1:53:06 AM # Q
Mmmmm. Italics.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

Palm OS is the best OS.

VampireLestat @ 10/23/2005 1:31:17 PM # Q
I upgraded my HP hx2750 to WM2005 and it is slower than ever. I much prefer my new Palm TX.

RE: Palm OS is the best OS.
twrock @ 10/23/2005 4:01:22 PM # Q
Speaking of "slow", I toyed around with a Dopod 900 today for a few minutes (HTC Universal). Ouch! You'd better have more patience than I if you buy that thing. And the price tage was close to US$1000. It'd be fun to see how quick it'd be with the Palm OS instead, but a $300 TX is still looking really good at this point.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
RE: Palm OS is the best OS.
Dr Opinion @ 10/23/2005 6:00:53 PM # Q
Yeah, I predict we'll see a lot of former wince users upgrading to Palm now. Its good to see that the various changes at Palm have brought some solid true-to-form Palm products. :)

My T|X really is a classic: state-of-the-art, yet zen-of-palm.

Of course, we shouldn't be surprised: this is the same company that developed the Treo, a product that has totally demolished any attempts to produce a successful wince smartphone.

I guess the T|X is going to be the "Treo" of the PDA space...!

Wince can't touch this. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: WinMob is the slowest OS.
twrock @ 10/25/2005 1:09:56 PM # Q
So my few minutes with the WinMob device got me wondering. Are all PPC's that slow? The HTC Universal has a 520 Mhz Intel Bulverde processor, 64 MB RAM and 128 MB ROM. That's a lot of processor and memory. Seems like it should be more than adequate for running a handheld device. And of course it has WinMob5. But it is slow! Loading programs is slow. Screen writes are slow. Is this common to all Windows based handhelds, or is this just a WinMob5 problem?

How about it, Surur? You're the local "Windows handhelds are better than Palms" guy. Is this speed (lack thereof) issue something the guys you convince to switch can look forward to?

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Palm OS is the best OS.
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 1:38:28 PM # Q
I'm surprised the VampireLestat says his hx2750 was slower after upgrading to WM5 since I thought it was supposed to be faster than previous versions. But come to think of it the metrics I'd seen had more to do with the .NET performance and the system itself isn't written in .NET. FWIW, all of the PocketPCs I've owned (HPs, Dells, Toshibas) are noticeably slower than my Palm OS devices for most operations.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS is the best OS.
sr4 @ 10/25/2005 2:05:14 PM # Q

There's two kind of speeds. One is responsiveness, which a basic OS like POS is quite good with. The second is raw speed, like the type you need to do video decoding or search a database. Thats dependent on processor speed and IO. PPC's generally have the advantage here, due to better specs.

WM5 devices store files and such in flash memory. This will negatively influence IO dramatically. WM5 has been adapted to ameliorate the effect e.g. batch writes instead of single record writes, and updated 3rd party software would need to incorporate similar techniques, but that will only go so far. The second element is faster flash memory, with the flash memory in new devices being up to 25 times faster than the flash memory in older devices.

But in the end, a pure ram device such as WM2003SE will always be faster than a combination of flash ram and normal ram. In return you get data security however.

For the people who have the upgrade available e.g. hp 2705, Axim x50 and the Loox 720 next year, they will have to decide whether the trade-off is worth the advantages.

In short, WM2003SE is probably a lot faster than WM5 on the same hardware. The reasons are transparent however. For WM5-designed devices the difference are less marked.

Surur

RE: Palm OS is the best OS.
Scott R @ 10/25/2005 4:27:15 PM # Q
FWIW, my WM5 PPC-6700 certainly felt noticeably slower than my WM2003 (PPC 2003?) HP iPaq h4155. I don't believe that the main cause is the Flash ROM, though, as I was seeing this sluggishness well after the app had loaded. If slower Flash ROM was the cause, I would expect the sluggishness to be limited to the initial load time.

A combination of usability issues (some of which were intentional, some of which were bugs that would likely be worked out in an upcoming patch) and WM5 software compatibility issues (a lot of them), resulted in me deciding to return the PPC-6700 and switch back to my Treo 650.

As I've said numerous times before...it's not a case of which OS/GUI is superior (Palm OS or Windows Mobile). Between the usability issues of WinMob and the cobbled-together features of FrankenGarnet, they both suck more than they ought to, just for different reasons.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Palm OS is the best OS.
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 4:39:55 PM # Q
ScottR wrote:
Between the usability issues of WinMob and the cobbled-together features of FrankenGarnet, they both suck more than they ought to, just for different reasons.

LOL! Exactly. There is sooooo much work to be done to get a mobile platform that people really want to use. People just care so much more about how they work with their personal devices than they do with their PC. With PC's we're all kind of resigned to what we actually know to be a pretty crappy experience. We have no choice because we have to use the PC and it's something that stopped being really innovated years ago. But put that kind of crappy experience on a mobile device that we aren't already convinced we can't live without and guess what? Most people live without. The rest complain.

That's why I keep saying that the future is wide open to the folks who figure out how to make a decent mobile platform.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS is the best OS.
sr4 @ 10/25/2005 4:45:11 PM # Q

Even when software is already loaded, some resources may still need to be loaded from flash ram, e.g. icons and graphics, font libraries, databases etc. Synthetic speed tests do not show WM5 to be significantly slower, except for the afore mentioned file access, but this influences everything. Developers can work around this, by preloading resources and optimising for slow media.

http://www.mobiletechreview.com/Dell-Axim-X51v.htm compares x51v vs x50v, which is about as pure a comparison of WM2003SE vs WM5 as one can get.

Surur

RE: Palm OS is the best OS.
twrock @ 10/26/2005 9:56:16 AM # Q
Surur, thanks for the reply. Personally, I'm mostly interested in a WinMob/PalmOS speed comparison on the basic tasks like PIM. (How the different versions of WM compare might be of interest to some others though.) Since I'm not looking for a desktop replacement in the palm of my hand, this confirms what I had already decided: stick with Palm for my upgrade path. I was just a bit surprised at how noticably slow a unit with that much power could be. Hopefully whatever PalmSource/ACCESS puts out in their Linux version won't suffer from the same lack of speed.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Reply to this comment

Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)

Dr Opinion @ 10/23/2005 7:43:30 PM # Q
Expect to see wince obsoleted within 18 months... seriously. :)

Here's some prototype hardware being demo'd by Intel. Many analysts haven't put two and two together yet, but microsoft will obviously not support two mobile platforms, especially when wince has never made money, has lousy reliability, and very little developer interest:

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Intel_Demoing_Ruby_mini_PC

Goodbye wince! :)


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
sr4 @ 10/23/2005 7:56:05 PM # Q

Finally!! Ive been waiting ages for that Win XP smartphone.

Surur

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
Dr Opinion @ 10/23/2005 7:59:03 PM # Q
I wouldn't bother. Get the next Treo with Palm Linux. Expect to see some great wince-beating features like:

Hotsync that doesn't crash (I mean, come on!?)

Battery that lasts more than one day (Note: "I have a back-pack full of replaceable batteries" does not count as "multi-day battery life") :)

Lots of applications (Note: today-screen plugins that merely add chrome and instability don't count as "applications") :)

Slim elegant formfactor (Note: a giant brick-like device that looks like a cross between a door-stop and Darth Vader's helmet does not count as "elegant") :)


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
E Ben G @ 10/23/2005 8:48:35 PM # Q
Who cares if WM is obseleted in 18 months? As long as I've got something in my pocket with all my data on it, who cares?

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
Dr Opinion @ 10/23/2005 10:10:30 PM # Q
Depends. If it's wince, then no-one. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
rolandsr @ 10/25/2005 12:50:56 AM # Q
I have never really wanted to post and this will probably be my last. For ALL OF YOU: Dr. O is not Jeff Kirvin. I talked with Jeff at length and he is no longer posting any comments about mobile technology anywhere. He is not reading the forums, the news, the anything, he has stopped MCing the local PUG in Denver. The first Kirvin heard of Dr. O is when someone emailed him. To be blunt he has lost interest in the entire field. So VOR stop the crap, he isn't even reading this stuff.

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
twrock @ 10/25/2005 12:18:07 PM # Q
rolandsr, trying to "reason" with TVOR is pretty hopeless. It's be nice if what you wrote makes any impression, but I doubt it. Think of it as something like a Pit Bull. Once he sinks his teeth into something, he's not letting go. He's got his own sense of reality. Don't bother him with the simple truth; he prefers complicated conspiracy theories.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
RE: Oh, by the way, PalmOS is about to go bye-bye. :)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/25/2005 11:01:40 PM # Q
I have never really wanted to post and this will probably be my last. For ALL OF YOU: Dr. O is not Jeff Kirvin. I talked with Jeff at length and he is no longer posting any comments about mobile technology anywhere. He is not reading the forums, the news, the anything, he has stopped MCing the local PUG in Denver. The first Kirvin heard of Dr. O is when someone emailed him. To be blunt he has lost interest in the entire field. So VOR stop the crap, he isn't even reading this stuff.

What would you say if someone told you that Dr Opinion is posting from the same computer as Jeff Kirvin? Coincidence?

Kirvin was spurned by Palm and is burnt out + bitter. The truth hurts.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
cervezas @ 10/25/2005 11:51:28 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
What would you say if someone told you that Dr Opinion is posting from the same computer as Jeff Kirvin?

I doubt it. If he is I'd say he's racking up some pretty good frequent flyer miles. Looks to me like Dr. O is in the D.C. metro area whereas Jeff lives outside of Denver.

So how about your special friend benamy, Voice? Where does he live? Can we talk to him now?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
rolandsr @ 10/26/2005 12:22:26 AM # Q
VOR, again no he is not writing anything about PDA's. He has no interest in you VOR or anything with mobile technology. Ask Gekko he was on the 1SCR forum last Saturday and he can confirm that Jeff stopped posting. And how would you know that it was Jeff's computer. VOR GROW UP and get a life. By the way Jeff lives in a suburb of Denver and he has not read any of this. God give it a rest... I wish I did not say anything.

RE: Oh, by the way, Kirvin is about to go bye-bye. :)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/26/2005 12:25:22 AM # Q
>>>TVoR wrote:
What would you say if someone told you that Dr Opinion is posting from the same computer as Jeff Kirvin?

I doubt it. If he is I'd say he's racking up some pretty good frequent flyer miles. Looks to me like Dr. O is in the D.C. metro area whereas Jeff lives outside of Denver.

So how about your special friend benamy, Voice? Where does he live? Can we talk to him now?


Kirvin lives near Denver. Doc Op lives... near Denver.
Hmmm...

And if you think I'm "benamy", you're a true dullard, Beersy. Just because benamy biotchslapped you elsewhere does not mean that I am that individual.

http://www.allaboutpalm.com/forum/showthread.php?p=195#post195


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
rolandsr @ 10/26/2005 12:30:28 AM # Q
One more thing VOR or VODOOM. I checked the stats of Dr. O. The person owns a Tungsten C. Jeff never owned a C nor would he have anything to do with it. He also has never been interested in a Lifedrive. Cervantes was right, Jeff would really have to rack up mileage since the Dr. is in the DC area. If you want to waste time send me a private email. Other than that, I have other things to do.

RE: Oh, by the way, Kirvin is about to go bye-bye. :)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/26/2005 12:37:14 AM # Q
VOR, again no he is not writing anything about PDA's. He has no interest in you VOR or anything with mobile technology. Ask Gekko he was on the 1SCR forum last Saturday and he can confirm that Jeff stopped posting. And how would you know that it was Jeff's computer. VOR GROW UP and get a life. By the way Jeff lives in a suburb of Denver and he has not read any of this. God give it a rest... I wish I did not say anything.

Why don't you ask Ryan if Kirvin = Dr Opinion. :)


Kirvin burned a lot of bridges recently and is only now starting to realize the consequences of his puerile behaviour. :)

'Nuff said. :)


TVoR :)



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Oh, by the way, Kirvin is about to go bye-bye. :)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/26/2005 12:43:35 AM # Q
I have never really wanted to post and this will probably be my last. For ALL OF YOU: Dr. O is not Jeff Kirvin. I talked with Jeff at length and he is no longer posting any comments about mobile technology anywhere. He is not reading the forums, the news, the anything, he has stopped MCing the local PUG in Denver. The first Kirvin heard of Dr. O is when someone emailed him. To be blunt he has lost interest in the entire field. So VOR stop the crap, he isn't even reading this stuff.

Let's see: you joined Palminfocenter TODAY to try and do damage control for Kirvin? Hmmmm...

Where did you talk "with Jeff at length"? In the mirror? I think Kirvin is reading and responding to the thread right now. What do you think, Kirvin?


One more thing VOR or VODOOM. I checked the stats of Dr. O. The person owns a Tungsten C. Jeff never owned a C nor would he have anything to do with it. He also has never been interested in a Lifedrive. Cervantes was right, Jeff would really have to rack up mileage since the Dr. is in the DC area. If you want to waste time send me a private email. Other than that, I have other things to do.

Don't believe everything you read...

You seem to know a lot about the intrepid Mr. Kirvin. What did you - I mean he - have for lunch today?

Get a clue, Jeff. A real man would come clean, admit what he did was a mistake, apologize and MOVE ON. You've done NONE of those things and are now digging an even bigger hole for yourself as you try to be too clever for your own good. Congratulations.

Should I send the email to Jeff@writingonyourpalm.net ???

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
twrock @ 10/26/2005 9:15:33 AM # Q
rolandsr, just remember, "reason" is futile.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
RE: Oh, by the way, wince is about to go bye-bye. :)
rolandsr @ 10/26/2005 10:26:59 AM # Q
VOR, you can check google for my name. Yes I just joined after hearing on 1SCR about Dr. O. I AM NOT KIRVIN and for the last time he is not on the tread. VOR I am no apologist for Kirvin and for you being so parnoid to say someone to apologize, you should. Go ahead and send him an email it will be forwarded to me. You can also see that Rolandrsr was another username I had. I used this current name in an obvious futile effort to set the record straight. VOR end this and you MOVE ON. MY God who cares about the future of Palm.

Kirvin trapped in a web of lies...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/26/2005 9:43:32 PM # Q
As I said before:

Get a clue, Jeff. A real man would come clean, admit what he did was a mistake, apologize and MOVE ON. You've done NONE of those things and are now digging an even bigger hole for yourself as you try to be too clever for your own good. Congratulations.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

I hate windows mobile

dmdmd @ 10/26/2005 10:27:29 PM # Q
I just don't like its slow responsiveness and for the same operation, it takes so many click to achieve it compared to PalmOs.

I don't care much about mutiltasking. I want something which is fast and very responsive. I need the info ready when I turn on the device and press one button or just do 2 clicks.

This should be the essence of a PDA. Who cares about mp3 playing or not. The battery is just not good enough to support continuous music listening. Furthermore, so many cheap and good mp3 players are available on market currently. I personally would like to see Palm devices equipped with a removable battery slot and also with a camera.

Reply to this comment

CBR finally published a retraction

cervezas @ 10/27/2005 10:18:07 PM # Q
http://tinyurl.com/99n62

At least we got a(nother) definitive statement from ACCESS about their plans for those who have doubted: "Access is planning to follow the current business model and management strategy as established by PalmSource, which includes comprehensive support for existing versions of Palm OS for customers, developers, and partners," Access said in a statement on Friday."


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Tee Hee! My bad!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/28/2005 12:31:21 AM # Q
What the he11 else do you EXPECT them to say?

Remember the former Iraqi information minister ("Comical Ali"):


"There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never!"

"My feelings - as usual - we will slaughter them all"

"Our initial assessment is that they will all die"

"I blame Al-Jazeera - they are marketing for the Americans!"

"God will roast their stomachs in hell at the hands of Iraqis."

"They're coming to surrender or be burned in their tanks."

"No I am not scared, and neither should you be!"

"Be assured. Baghdad is safe, protected"

"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!"

"We are not afraid of the Americans. Allah has condemned them. They are stupid. They are stupid" (dramatic pause) "and they are condemned."

"The Americans, they always depend on a method what I call ... stupid, silly. All I ask is check yourself. Do not in fact repeat their lies."

"I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide under the walls of Baghdad. We
will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly."

"I can assure you that those villains will recognize, will discover in appropriate time in the future how stupid they are and how they are pretending things which have never taken place."

"We have destroyed 2 tanks, fighter planes, 2 helicopters and their shovels - We have driven them back."

"The authority of the civil defense ... issued a warning to the civilian population not to pick up any of those pencils because they are booby traps," he said, adding that the British and American forces were "immoral mercenaries" and "war criminals" for such behavior."

"I am not talking about the American people and the British people," he said. "I am talking about those mercenaries. ... They have started throwing those pencils, but they are not pencils, they are booby traps to kill the children."

"We have them surrounded in their tanks"

"The American press is all about lies! All they tell is lies, lies and more lies!"

"I have detailed information about the situation...which completely proves that what they allege are illusions . . . They lie every day."

"Lying is forbidden in Iraq. President Saddam Hussein will tolerate nothing but truthfulness as he is a man of great honor and integrity. Everyone is encouraged to speak freely of the truths evidenced in their eyes and hearts."

"Now even the American command is under siege. We are hitting it from the north, east, south and west. We chase them here and they chase us there. But at the end we are the people who are laying siege to them. And it is not them who are besieging us."


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Don't believe everything you hear, Beersy...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/28/2005 12:58:44 AM # Q
"because we will behead you all"

"Let the American infidels bask in their illusion"

"I triple guarantee you, there are no American soldiers in Baghdad."

Britain "is not worth an old shoe"

"we have given them a sour taste"

"blood-sucking bastards"

Of US troops: "They are most welcome. We will butcher them."

"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

"We are in control. They are in a state of hysteria. Losers, they think that by killing civilians and trying to distort the feelings of the people they will win. I think they will not win, those bastards."

"The British forces which were dropped there have been eliminated mostly on the (battle)field, except for those who fled ... It is a complete defeat ... Amazingly the Americans have pushed the British to do that. They pushed them ahead as if it is an experiment. The result was very tragic for the British."

“We have placed them in a quagmire from which they can never emerge except dead”

"Washington has thrown their soldiers on the fire"

"I speak better English than this villain Bush"

"These cowards have no morals. They have no shame about lying"

"They're not even [within] 100 miles [of Baghdad]. They are not in any
place. They hold no place in Iraq. This is an illusion ... they are
trying to sell to the others an illusion."

"Their failure in this regard is abysmal. They want to tell the world changes thought - as a matter of fact, they do not respect the world, they want to tell taxpayers and the domestic public to keep them deceived. We will embroil them, confuse them and keep them in the quagmire. They have begun to tell more lies so that they might continue with the perpetration of their crimes. May they be accursed."

"We will kill them all........most of them."

"They are like a snake and we are going to cut it in pieces."

"They do not even have control over themselves! Do not believe them!"

"I would like to clarify a simple fact here: How can you lay siege to a whole country? Who is really under siege now? Baghdad cannot be besieged. Al-Nasiriyah cannot be besieged. Basra cannot be besieged."

"That bastard the American Minister of Defense Rumsfeld, and I won't say shamelessly, because they don't know what shame means. These are criminals. The whole word can hear the warning sirens. This criminal sitting in the White House is a pathetic criminal and his Defense Minister deserves to be beaten. These criminals lie to the world because they are criminals by nature and conditioning. They consider this a military site! Shame on you! You will forever be shamed! You have ruined the reputation of the American people in the most terrible way! Shame on you! And we will destroy you!"

"They are trapped in Umm Qasr. They are trapped near Basra. They are trapped near Nasiriyah. They are trapped near Najaf. They are trapped everywhere."

Called Americans and Brits "Tarateer"– In Iraqi slang, Tartoor means a guy full of farts (i.e. hot air)

"they are nowhere near the airport ..they are lost in the desert...they can not read a compass...they are retarded."

"They are not in Baghdad. They are not in control of any airport. I tell you this. It is all a lie. They lie. It is a hollywood movie. You do not believe them."

"Faltering forces of infidels cannot just enter a country of 26 million people and lay besiege to them! They are the ones who will find themselves under siege. Therefore, in reality whatever this miserable Rumsfeld has been saying, he was talking about his own forces. Now even the American command is under siege."

"They tried to bring a small number of tanks and personnel carriers in through al-Durah but they were surrounded and most of their infidels had their throats cut."

"Our estimates are that none of them will come out alive unless they surrender to us quickly."

"We made them drink poison last night and Saddam Hussein's soldiers and his great forces gave the Americans a lesson which will not be forgotten by history. Truly."

"On this occasion, I am not going to mention the number of the infidels who were killed and the number of destroyed vehicles. The operation continues"

"Today we slaughtered them in the airport. They are out of Saddam International Airport."

"The force that was in the airport, this force was destroyed."

"We're giving them a real lesson today. Heavy doesn't accurately describe the level of casualties we have inflicted."

"Their infidels are committing suicide by the hundreds on the gates of Baghdad. Be assured, Baghdad is safe, protected."

"Today I have visited whole Baghdad city, no invaders found. You go and see how we have ousted them from this city. They are cying outside and waiting to receive bullets. They will be killed shortly."

"These images are not the suburbs of Baghdad. From what I glimpsed, these gardens with rows of palm trees on the side, which you saw in the images, are located in the south of Abu Ghreib, where we have surrounded the Americans and British."

When told coalition troops occupied Baghdad airport -
"...at Saddam Airport? Now that's just silly!"

"The situation is excellent, they are going to try to approach Baghdad...and I believe their grave will be there."

"NO", snapped Mr al-Sahaf, "We have retaken the airport. There are NO Americans there. I will take you there and show you. IN ONE HOUR!"

"We defeated them yesterday. God willing, I will provide you with more information. I swear by God, I swear by God, those who are staying in Washington and London have thrown these mercenaries in a crematorium."

"Please, please! The Americans are relying on what I called yesterday a desperate and stupid method."

"They will be burnt. We are going to tackle them"

"We blocked them inside the city. Their rear is blocked"

"Desperate Americans"

"Today we slaughtered them in the airport. They are out of Saddam International Airport. The force that was in the airport, this force was destroyed."

"They are trying to fool you. They are showing any old pictures of buildings. They even went into the VIP section of the airport, just because Saddam Hussein may have sat in such and such a chair or slept in such and such a bed"

"We went into the airport and crushed them, we cleaned the WHOOOLE place out, they were slaughtered"

"Yes, the american troops have advanced further. This will only make it easier for us to defeat them"

"Their casualties and bodies are many."

[On surrenders] "Those are not Iraqi soldiers at all. Where did they bring them from?"

"Just look carefully, I only want you to look carefully. Do not repeat the lies of liars. Do not become like them. Once again, I blame al-Jazeera before it ascertains what takes place. Please, make sure of what you say and do not play such a role."

"This is unbased"

"Search for the truth. I tell you things and I always ask you to verify what I say. I told you yesterday that there was an attack and a retreat at Saddam's airport."

"I have detailed information about the situation . . . which completely proves that what they allege are illusions . . . They lie every day."

"You can go and visit those places. Nothing there, nothing at all. There are Iraqi checkpoints. Everything is okay."

"This boa, the American columns, are being besieged between Basra and other towns north, west, south and west of Basra....Now even the American command is under siege. We are hitting it from the north, east, south and west. We chase them here and they chase us there."

"By God, I think this is rather very unlikely. This is merely a prattle. The fact is that as soon as they reach Baghdad gates, we will besiege them and slaughter them....Wherever they go they will find themselves encircled."

"They (the U.S.) are deceiving their soldiers and their officers that aggressing against Iraq and invading Iraq will be like a picnic. This is a very stupid lie they are telling their soldiers, what they are facing is a definite death."

"Listen, this explosion does not frighten us any langer. The cruise missiles do not frighten anyone. We are catching them like fish in a river. I mean here that over the past two days we managed to shoot down 196 missiles before they hit their target."

"Blair...is accusing us of executing British soldiers. We want to tell him that we have not executed anybody. They are either killed in battle, most of them get killed because they are cowards anyway, the rest they just get captured."

"They fled. The American louts fled. Indeed, concerning the fighting waged by the heroes of the Arab Socialist Baath Party yesterday, one amazing thing really is the cowardice of the American soldiers. we had not anticipated this."

"We will slaughter them, Bush Jr. and his international gang of bastards!"

"the louts of colonialism."

"The forces of American colonialism began to drop containers that produce a sound explosion, a very huge sound. I remind you that they said that their strategy is based on shock and awe. Those failed ones manufactured a type of container that has an explosive substance, which they drop. They cause a very huge explosion in terms of sound, as if the universe was shaken. After a while, you go out and you don't find anything. You find some nails, screws, pieces of metal, but the important thing here is the sound. Those failed ones think that through the huge sound explosion, people would be shocked and consequently would collapse and be defeated. What happened? The contrary. The fighters..., the masses..., and the heroic sons of the Iraqi tribes discovered this game. They will turn it against the American louts so as to shock them. Wait for surprises, God willing, to see how the US game will fail."

"The shock has backfired on them. They are shocked because of what they have seen. No one received them with roses. They were received with bombs, shoes and bullets. Now, the game has been exposed. Awe will backfire on them. This is the boa snake. We will extend it further and cut it the appropriate way."

"It has been rumored that we have fired scud missiles into Kuwait. I am here now to tell you, we do not have any scud missiles and I don't know why they were fired into Kuwait."

"As for the mercenaries who advanced to the perimeters of Saddam International Airport, I would like to remind you of something. I will mention something that will make the picture clear for you and help you to understand what took place at Saddam International Airport. Most of you probably saw the American movie "Wag the Dog". I hope you remember it. Some of their acts that took place at dawn yesterday and today are similar to what happened in "Wag the Dog". If we succeed in keeping them isolated on that island, and we are determined to do so, we might let them taste a second mini Dien Bien Phu tonight. The European journalists remember it well. Our estimates are that none of them will come out alive unless they surrender to us quickly. They are completely surrounded now. This morning, the number of armoured personnel carriers that were destroyed, along with their occupants, is eight. The number of the tanks destroyed is 11."

"Tonight, we will do something unconventional against them. This means: not by the military. We will do something that I believe will become a pretty example for those mercenaries. I would not be giving out a secret when I say that action in the dark against such mercenaries is effective, not through the action of armies. I say that dropping down those mercenaries in a surprise fashion at Saddam Airport without accurate calculations is largely meant for showing things. It's a showy operation. It is a kind of surprise muscle flexing to the world to show it that the shock and awe operation is indeed successful. May they be accursed. Through this operation [shock and awe], they sent a number of their villains and mercenaries to be butchered. Again, and according to my early estimates, unless the remaining part of their soldiers surrender, the chance for their survival is very slim. The surprising thing is that after they threw their soldiers into a place where they are not aware of the real results, the villainous Americans, like Powell and the others, sat in Europe to discuss how to divide Iraq as spoils after the war [laughing]. This means what's post-war. The post-war [Iraq] will be the same current Iraq under the leadership of President Saddam Husayn."

"We will pursue them as war criminals. We will work with all the free people in the world, and they are many, who want someone to bell the cat [i.e.; to do a daring deed], and now we are belling the cat, according to the famous [Arabic] saying so as to rid the UN of those villains. After Iraq aborts the invasion that is being carried out by the American and British villains, the USA will no longer be a superpower. Its deterioration will be rapid. I say to those villains who are meeting in Europe, thinking of launching psychological war and brainwashing: wait. Do not be hasty because your disappointment will be huge. You will reap nothing from this aggressive war, which you launched on Iraq, except for disgrace and defeat. Iraq will continue to exist. Its civilization is 10,000 years old. It will not be changed by villains like the US and British villains."

"W. Bush, this man is a war criminal, and we will see
that he is brought to trial"

"I think the British nation has never been faced with a tragedy like this fellow [Blair]."

"The United Nations....[is] a place for prostitution under the feet of
Americans."

"They are sick in their minds. They say they brought 65 tanks into center
of city. I say to you this talk is not true. This is part of their sick mind."

"We have destroyed 50 tanks today. That 5-ohhh tanks" [while holding up his fingers]

"They are superpower of villains. They are superpower of Al Capone."

Americans are "wild donkeys" ('ALOG' in Arabic . Other possible translations offered by M.S.S. - 'The children of pigs', 'Those who have dramatically ugly faces', or 'leeches')

Americans and Brits are "Sick dogs".

"There are no Iraqis disguising themselves"

"They are retreating on all fronts. Their military effort is a subject of laughter throughout the world."

"...they are nowhere (pause)...they are nowhere, really"

"I can assure you that those villains will recognize, will discover in appropriate time in the future how stupid they are and how they are pretending things which have never taken place"

"Iraqi fighters in Umm Qasr are giving the hordes of American and Brtish
mercenaries the taste of definite death. We have drawn them into a
quagmire and they will never get out of it."

"What they say about a breakthrough [in Najaf] is completely an illusion. They are sending their warplanes to fly very low in order to have vibrations on these sacred places . . . they are trying to crack the buildings by flying low over them."

"We have crushed the whole force which dared to venture there. Now they're outside the wall and the heroic Republican Guard is now in control of the whole area. . . . So where are those villainous louts, those mercenaries?''

"Their forces committed suicide by the hundreds.... The battle is very
fierce and God made us victorious. The fighting continues."

"Yesterday, we slaughtered them and we will continue to slaughter them."

"They think we are retarded - they are retarded."

(leaflet drops) "I think this is very laughable for a Superpower to be so cheap to drop inside Iraq such poor things and they are printed in Kuwait''

"...crocodile tears [shed in] .. The gangster Bush's lair..." (refers to Bush and Blair at Camp David calling for the Geneva Conventions to be applied to all POWs)

"We're going to drag the drunken junkie nose of Bush through Iraq's desert, him and his follower dog Blair...There are 26 million Saddams in Iraq"

"We will push those crooks, those mercenaries back into the swamp"

"When we were making the law, when we were writing the literature and the mathematics the grandfathers of Blair and little Bush were scratching around in caves"

"Those Iraqi fighters are slapping those gangsters on the face, and then when they flee, they will kick their backsides."

About Bush: "the leader of the international criminal gang of bastards."

"the insane little dwarf Bush"

"The midget Bush and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere."

"Rumsfeld, he needs to be hit on the head"

"Yesterday we heard this villain called Rumsfeld. He, of course, is a war criminal, and he is one of the worst of the American rulers. He said the American mercenaries and the British mercenaries, they are defending themselves inside Iraq. They are in a defensive position. They are engaged in self-defense. They are fighting a self-defense war inside Iraq. Well, congratulations, Mr. Villain, you are defending yourself inside our country. We will show you what defense means."

"Bush is a very stupid man. The American people are not stupid, they are very clever. I can't understand how such clever people came to elect such a stupid president."

"Who is this dog Franks in Qatar?"

"Bush doesn't even know if Spain is a republic or a kingdom, how can they follow this man?"

"Whenever we attack, they retreat. When we pound them with missiles and heavy artillery, they retreat even deeper. But when we stopped pounding, they pushed to the airport for propaganda purposes.''

Any apparent American gains, he said, were a cunning ploy by the Iraqis to lure the enemy into a trap. "Our armed forces, according to their tactics, are leaving the way open"

"The capital, especially the commandos, are getting ready to wipe them out"

"We are surrounding them and pounding them. The whole trend has changed and we are going to finalize this very soon.''

"After we finish defeating all of those animals we will disclose that with facts and figures."

"Bush, Blair and Rumsfeld. They are the funny trio"

"We have shot down 2 Apache helicopters. Have the Americans said yet that they were shot down by their - what do they call it - friendly fire? No? Well... [dramatic pause, then smiles] ...not yet!"

Question: Is Saddam Hussein still alive:
"I will only answer reasonable questions"

"Don't believe anything! We will chase the rascals back to London!"

"We're now trying to exhaust them, until our leadership decides the time and method to clean our territory of their desecration."

"Those are mercenaries. Most probably they will be treated as mercenaries, hirelings and as war criminals. ... For sure, international law does not apply to those"

Bush "knows that he is standing in quicksand when it comes to his baseless talk on Iraq"

"This criminal (Bush) in the White House is a stupid criminal"

"They are not in Najaf. They are nowhere. They are on the moon. They are snakes in the desert..."

Iraqi opposition leaders are "bats ... and a bad American product."

"Even those who live on another planet, if there are such people, would have condemned this action before it started"

"We expect the aggressors to use anything, we don't rule out that in their depression at being vanquished, those losers will become hysterical and commit even more folly."

"They are becoming hysterical. This is the result of frustration."

On U.S. General Richard Myers: "He must be crazy"
His reports are "basic propaganda".

Rumsfeld is a "crook" and "the most despicable creature."

Rumsfeld is "the worst kind of bastard"

"Our farmers, they are targeting accurately the enemy." (shooting at helicopters)

"The imperialist invading U.S. and British forces are like a snake that slithers all over the place but that doesn't control anything."

"We feed them death and hell!"

"We besieged them and killed most of them, and I think we will finish them soon."

"They are nowhere near Baghdad. Their allegations are a cover-up for their failure"

"They want to deceive their people first because now they are in a very shabby situation."

"It's a small town [Umm Qasar], it has only a few docks... now they are in a trap"

"Iraqi forces are still in control of the city, and they are engaging in an attrition war with the enemy"

"Americans are now in disarray"

"They are again in the dirt in the desert."

"They will try to enter Baghdad, and I think this is where their graveyard will be."

"Their objective is to get to the outskirts of Baghdad. So be it."

"We will see how the issue will turn out when they come to Baghdad."

"We are determined to defeat them and destroy them on the walls of our capital, as we are determined to destroy their miserable armies in every Muslim spot."

"Iraq will spread them even more and chop them up."

"The Iraqi troops and the Iraqi fighters are in control of all the places, as we have witnessed. No big change in that. We are fighting against them."

"They are achieving nothing; they are suffering from casualties. Those casualties are increasing, not decreasing."

"Fight them everywhere. Don't give them a chance to breathe until they withdraw and retreat."

"The criminals will be humiliated... To hurt the enemy more, raise the level of your attacks."

"They are lying every day. They are lying always, and mainly they are lying to their public opinion."

"You think their tanks are in an endless line coming towards us, wrong they are only a few of them and they turn around and then return as if to make a long snake"

"I can assure you that those villains will recognize, will discover in appropriate time in the future, how stupid they are and how they are pretending things which have never taken place"

"In a few days, you will all witness something that can only be considered very beautiful against the Coalition forces. That, I assure you."

"we managed to chop off their rotten heads"

"There are only two American tanks in the city."

"We are winning!"



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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
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The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

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