Comments on: Ed Colligan Would Not Have Spun off PalmSource

Surer wrote:
They are not going to be tied down to POS or WM. Also I think they plan to make their own non-Access POS-Linux hybrid.

Palm has never been tied down to the system that they got from PalmSource, so I'm not sure why this comes as some kind of revelation. And Palm's innovations (e.g. the enhanced PIM apps and their underlying data structure) have often been folded back into the Palm OS by PalmSource, so that Palm has continued to contribute in important ways to the Palm OS platform itself since the split.

IMO, Palm is also going to have considerable leverage over ACCESS in the direction of the OS development. Hell, they were able to push even Microsoft around a bit to get the control they wanted over Windows Mobile 5.0 (though I doubt that's comparable to the level of control Colligan wishes he had over Palm OS right now).

I can't rule out that Palm might be working on their own Linux platform to suit the requirements they have for their Next Big Thing. Those "Third Business" devices may very well be far enough afield from the old PDA/smartphone domain that they need something quite different in the middleware. Whether they would be able to (technically or legally) maintain compatibility with Palm OS within a homegrown system is hard to know. But even if some of their future Linux devices don't run the Palm OS middleware, I expect their participation in the growth and development of Palm OS will continue much as it has in the past.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I think your right. Palmsource hasn't brought anything to the table in a while.

Also he says something like, "I hope Palmsource does well as a company." To me this mean "Palmsource, cya later."

We may get a glimpse of this OS, IF the rumored linux feature phone is released by end of this year. I think we will have one more Garnet Treo smartphone (treo 700p), then it moves to linux, msft, and maybe symbian.

SR4;
I agree, and not because its the right thing to do either :)

mobileministrymagazine.com
antoinerjwright.com

Surer wrote:
if Styletap can sell POS compatibility, so can Palm.

Good point. As I've been saying for a while now, there do seem to be noises in the air that indicate Palm has been doing something in the Linux realm that could be quite independent of PalmSource.

It certainly would be interesting if Palm were able to deliver a Palm-branded, fully Palm OS compatible Linux platform before (or anywhere near the time) PalmSource was able to complete theirs. Interesting to think about... interesting in a sense that falls somewhere between "the wreckage from the Roswell UFO crash sure is interesting" and "Harriet Miers was an interesting nominee for the Supreme Court." :)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

TVoR wrote:
they started late.... OS development is hard work and doesn't happen overnight - expect at least 2 or 3 years of frantic development to create a decent OS

Who says they started late? The people who a year ago broke the news that Palm was building a Windows Treo said at the same time that Palm had already been working with Linux "for some time."

Palm lacks the software engineering resources to pull this off quickly

There are embedded Linux vendors who would be more than happy to give them a hand if that was the limiting factor. Like Wind River, the source of the admittedly dubious "Palm Linux phone by Christmas" rumor.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe there is a "shadow Palm Linux" running right now on some device in Palm's underground skunkworks bunker, much less one that's ready for market, but there's nothing in anything you've said here that would prevent this from being the case.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Wind River's new Linux consumer device platform was announced this month and they have dropped that it will power a smartphone that *someone* is releasing in the US before Christmas.

Now you and I may doubt that this someone is Palm, but aside from a comment made by Ed Colligan that "we don't need anymore platforms" [than the three we've been working with for the last two years] why couldn't it be?

As a side note that is of interest, note the short timespan between Wind River's release of its "Platform for Consumer Electronics, Linux Edition" and the expected release of the first phone running this OS: less than 3 months.

Is Wind River full of crap? Maybe so, maybe not.

Is Linux the answer to Windows Mobile, receding glaciers, and the painful itching and swelling of hemorrhoidal tissue?

Absolutely.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Why try to grow a duck for eggs when chicken eggs are plentiful, desired, accepted, nutritious, proven, effective, and cheap?

WINMOB RULES.

I'm going to apply for that and at least write the code so that when a user returns to Contacts from another app, they won't lose their place and have to re-search the record again. That's worth something.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

What the he11 is the Reverend talking about, Beersy?

;-O

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

VR,
Most Palmsource/Palm PIM apps do not "return" to the previous point of operation when going from/to other apps. If you have a 10-digit phone number (in your case, Prez W's cell or Gates direct line etc.)scribbled on NotePad and you want to enter it with as a new contact. When you put in the info in Contacts, you had better remember it all because if you return to NotePad to get the rest and return to Contacts, then Contacts will not be at the place you left but at the top of the list.

That's what in the H3av3n I'm talking about. ;-)

Dave, maybe you guys can write a hack called PIMPlace, aka "PIMP" that will do it. I'll beta test it 4 ya.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

> "...whether Palm is cooking up their own Linux OS. Call me crazy, but that would certainly seem more logical reason for hiring Linux programmers than starting development for an OS which, under the rosiest scenario, won't be available for a year..."

Actually, you're looking at it all wrong. :)

Since Palm CEO has said that there is definitely, categorically, absolutely not another OS in the works, the fact that Palm is hiring Linux guys proves that Palm Linux will be out *soon*. :)

Wow! Great news! :)

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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Not to be a cynic or anything, but let's be honest and recognize that control over the OS isn't the only reason that Colligan would like PalmSource back under Palm's roof again. Palm has profited from the disappearance of competing Palm OS licensees like Sony and Handspring, so the prospect of renewed competition from Palm Linux licensees can't be a really happy thing for them. Even if Palm didn't explicitly limit the signing of new licensees, the mere fact that prospective licensees would be dependent on a competitor for meeting product release deadlines and the like would scare enough of them away to ensure that Palm continued to hold a de facto monopoly over the OS.

Well done, Beersy! Don't worry about the puncture wounds on your neck - they'll heal quickly.

Next stop: finding you some better clothes more befitting of a minion of Nosferatu.

"You're one of us!"

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

cells???

Ahem.

In order to have brain cells die, you would have to already have more than one to begin with. Ergo, you just posted another Beersy LIE. Shame!

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

As the article goes on to point out after the part you quoted, ARPU does not = profitability. You have to look at the cost side as well as the revenue. Strangely, while the author provides some figures on how Windows Mobile devices increase data service provisioning costs and support costs, I didn't see a comparative analysis for the other platforms, which makes me question who commissioned the paper.

The article also mentions loyalty as a critical factor for the operators. Platform loyalty is still one of the areas where Palm OS blows Windows Mobile out of the water. I don't recall the exact figures, but they were quite impressive to me at the time I heard them.

What is clearly the case is that the carriers want to have ways to distinguish themselves from their competition. Now that all of them (in the US anyway) have Palm OS versions of the Treo it's totally natural that some would be looking for a Windows Mobile version, apart from any other considerations listed in the Edge Strategies analysis.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Platform loyalty is still one of the areas where Palm OS blows Windows Mobile out of the water. I don't recall the exact figures, but they were quite impressive to me at the time I heard them.

I think you mistook WM for POS in this article.

Customers were asked to rank their satisfaction with their current mobile device as "Excellent," "Good," "Average," "Below Average" or "Poor." The Dell Axim family topped the rankings with over 59 percent of owners giving the device "Excellent" ratings while another 37 percent rated it "Good." The next most highly ranked device was RIM's BlackBerry™ followed by the palmOne Treo.

Customers were also asked to name the brand of their previous mobile devices. Among the 92 percent of respondents who had upgraded to a new device, Windows Mobile customers were the most likely to upgrade to another Windows Mobile device of the same brand. Customers using other mobile operating systems were also more likely to upgrade to a Windows Mobile device than vice versa.

http://corp.handango.com/PressRelease.jsp?siteId=1&jid=F7AE3AX9AXD3D1X7C9C8X18F128F4336&CKey=1_PRESSRELEASE_PR051005&option=pressroom

AMPU (Average Margin Per User) was higher for WM, but they did not say how much higher. However if you remember that this was during the Treo 600 time (which had build quality and reliability issues) I am sure the margin for WM users were significantly higher than POS devices.

Surur

Surur

Interesting article, but it seems to make much of the possibility of cheap phones, due to Linux and owning the platform. However, MS has never stood back from making a loss to establish a platform, and the WM license is cheap enough already. Also the WM platform seems to be more focused on winning over carriers than branding themselves, which makes them more attractive to carriers.

Check out this T-Mobile website. All the own-branded t-mobile devices are WM phones, many are available for free, and they are all smartphones or PPC phones. The barrier for entry for consumers are low already. They don't need Linux to make it lower.

http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/Dispatcher?paymentPlanType=pmt&pmid=7231&nmid=phones_ews_overview&menuid=ctl_phones_details

Surur

Also the WM platform seems to be more focused on winning over carriers than branding themselves, which makes them more attractive to carriers.

Check out this T-Mobile website. All the own-branded t-mobile devices are WM phones, many are available for free, and they are all smartphones or PPC phones. The barrier for entry for consumers are low already. They don't need Linux to make it lower.

Bingo. Windows Mobile covers everything from "free" almost-feature-phones to ultra-high-end smartphones. Plus it's been out in the hands of real users for a LONG time. Plus it's got the Windows name that businesses/IT departments look for. Plus it now will have Exchange compatibility for pseudo"push" email. Plus it's cheap. That's a lot of plusses to stack against an OS that is just being created (Access/PalmSource PalmLinux - APSPL) or hasn't even yet hired architects yet (Palm PalmLinux - PPL)

If Microsoft had been intelligent enough to fix their UI deficiencies a couple years ago, PalmSource may have surrendered by now.

TVoR

I'm still amazed that Palm never bothered to package Good Technology's "push" email system and sell businesses on Treos as a turnkey "Blackberry Killer". Yes, picking just one push system would have hurt the others (e.g. Seven), but Palm has bought/licensed apps like Documents To Go and MultiMail (VersaMail) in the past to the detriment of those apps' competition. Now that Blackberry is reaching critical mass and that WinMob includes Exchange support, Palm's Windows of opportunity appear to have been lost...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Unlike D.O.'s deluded beliefs, this is an area MS MUST win, as our mobile devices become more and more important in our lives, replacing desktop functionality. The spending is therefore strategic, and worth the investment. They can however not move too fast, else they would undermine their still very profitable desktop and Office suite offerings.

However, despite this, the MS Mobile and Embedded division still made $70 million in revenue last quarter, and only made a $2 million loss. At the moment they are close to profitability. I understand Access made $100 million in revenue from having their software installed in 150 million devices. Clearly currently Win CE commands higher fees than Access's software. No wonder they want to move up in the market, to a total solution.

Regarding own branding, I'm sure they can do this. I feel however this will preclude the bigger handset vendors (e.g. Nokia) from using their platform.

Surur

TVoR echos Surer, writing:
Losing the smartphone war could easily lead to a decline in Microsoft's dominance elsewhere.

Who's denying that? I think even Microsoft is starting to catch on to the fact that mobile computers are going to be many peoples' primary computers in the not-too-distant future, so yeah, they better be there in a big way, even if it means giving the OS away today.

The point is that Microsoft is barely managing to compete right now (and is losing ground to Linux) even though they are in heavy discount mode. They have the advantage of enormous resources and integration with backend systems, but still they struggle. They're a force to be reckoned with, no question, but they don't seem to have the natural advantage that Linux does in the mobile space.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

...but they don't seem to have the natural advantage that Linux does in the mobile space.

What advantage is that? Not being Microsoft? Yes, many fear being smothered by MS, but by going grassroots (HTC, Compal) they are getting around that, and are now signing up Levono and Quanta (biggest laptop OEM/ODM's). All of these companies want to be the next Nokia, and they see MS WM as the way there (vs Linux, where they would have do do a lot more work to convince carriers to carry their phones). MS has made HTC rich, with year on year growth of 100%, and other companies want a piece of that action.
http://www.htc.com.tw/news/press051007.html

Surur

But you don't have to believe me. Ask the smartphone vendors who shipped phones running Linux over Windows Mobile Smartphone by a 3:1 margin in Q1 05.

Probably mainly because of price (and mistrust of Microsoft). Now if a buggy, slow pig of an OS like WinMob has been was still able to corner a big chunk of the market, what will happen if Microsoft cleans up the rough (ummm... jagged) edges a bit and hypes the Exchange push email tie-in?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

If/When Linux becomes a smartphone platform it will mean vendors will have to move more or less in lockstep, unless they want to break compatibility. They have many of the same features in win ce (e.g. access to the code) already.

Also if you modify the Linux code and go your own way, who's going to recertify you under FIPS-2? You will have to do it all yourself again. Being independent comes with its own problems.

Surur

> "...Linux [...] will mean vendors will have to move more or less in lockstep, unless they want to break compatibility..."

Break what compatability? What on earth are you talking about? :)

Just because we see microsoft breaking binary and API compatability with every major revision of wince does not mean that happens on other OSs... for example, I still run binaries on my T|X that were compiled for my original Palm III: this binary compatability is a central part of the Palm economy. :)

Get with the picture: Palm OS has binary compatability for most applications going back to the original devices. When a Palm Linux licensee buys the Palm application stack, they gain access to a standard API, a massive community of developers, and a huge back catalog of applications and games! :)

And best of all: they can keep making as many changes to the OS as they like, as frequently as they like, and most certainly not "in lockstep" with anyone. Duh. :)

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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Wow, that is great news. So, FITALY will work on a new TX.....oops, nope. So, all my old apps will run full screen on a new TX and use the collapsable text entry area properly....oops, nope. So, all those fonts that work......oh, yeah, guess the POS has no real fonts. Every program that wants to use real fonts has to hack them. And all those font hack schemes will work on a new TX...oops, nope, they don't even work from program to program. Not to mention that the nice new 10, clip function won't work in anything but the built-in PIMs unless a program is competely rewritten to work with them.
Yep, POS is the developers dream. That is why we haven't a single major program that is more powerful than those WinMob have had for two years or more. Moreover, the programs that are being updated work less and less dependably. May I cite my own Zire 72, that came with DTG. I can't use it because it crashes every third or fourth tiem it runs. Fine stuff.

Timothy, I try not to waste more than 10 words in response to D.O.'s nonsense. I suggest you do the same. He needs to decide if he want to engage in proper discussion, or just spout bull. He cant have it both ways.

Surur

RE " RE: Interesting line -'Some carriers did not want POS'
sr4 @ 11/1/2005 9:03:28 PM #

Timothy, I try not to waste more than 10 words in response to D.O.'s nonsense. I suggest you do the same. He needs to decide if he want to engage in proper discussion, or just spout bull. He cant have it both ways.

Surur"

Yep, I gave it one more good ol' college try, but he is just trolling. Like I said before. He is probably someone else playing us to get a rise. No one could be that lame by accident.

"Yes, I am pretty sure I would not have sold off the engine compartment on the Titanic just before we ran it into the iceberg. Yes, a ship with a controlable engine compartment might have been more maneuverable. So, I'm pretty sure that I would not have sold that part of the ship.
Yep, pretty sure."
-Cooligan-

Wow, VOR said something agreeable?
I could not be more flattered.
I like watching you and Beers and Surer go at the issues here. You all have such informed views. As the industry insider Beers should probably be the best opinionator, but you and Sure keep him on the ropes from time to time. He is the most reasonable and least provocative merely for the sake of being provocative.
Surer is the most helpful in posting good relavent material to move discussions forward. Moreover, the links and info presented are always very relavent.
VOR, you should be my number one champion here, as we so agree on the issues. The TH55 was all that and a bag of chips and Palm STILL hasn't got the brains to make one for itself and return to dominance of the handheld world! But, you bore me when you so predictably get in someone's face just to get in their face. Your analysis of the issues from the biggest ideas to the smallest details are amazingly clear and (IMHO) closest to the truth and reason, but when you dive off too far it can get wearing.

I like it here.

Well said, Timothy. That pretty much sums up my feelings on the "headliners" here at PIC. I like the "inside dirt" and some of the jabs ARE hilarious but I can see how it'd give people the wrong idea. For the record, I actually would have insinuations made about me cuddling up with Mike Cane in a dingy NYC tenament while wearing a rubber glove than the highly unimaginative
"moron :-)"

Now, head on over to the PIC forums for a much more laid-back environment-but be warned, some of the gang over there can't handle much heat or criticism of Palm. Hopefully they won't start to resemble the Brighthand forums...anyone know where can I upload the 640x480 pictures of my cat?

For the record, JarJar, I am STILL waiting for the tell-all book/magazine story/interview/blog (even anonymously-if such a thing can be had with you're at the management level) of Palm's sordid past. '00 to '04 would make for some compelling reading, wouldn't it? I mean, someone wrote a book about id Software fer cryin' out loud--and the gang there isn't exactly the bastion of gossip/rumor fodder.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5

RE: "> "...The TH55 was all that and a bag of chips and Palm STILL hasn't got the brains to make one for itself..."

A 123MHz handheld with a built in camera? Yeah, Palm should make one *now*! :)

Sell it below cost, just like the TH55? Yeah! But we'll make it up on volume, right!? :)

Just think, if only Palm would make one, they'd achieve handheld dominance, just like Sony did. Definitely. Whoever could have made one of those in 2004 would have totally cornered the handheld market!

You're a pretty clever person, aren't you? :)

Yes, if a Palm model with exactly the specs of the TH55 were available today it would outsell the TX. I would buy two or three of them. The only thing that kept me from buying a TH55 at the time it was released was Sony lying to me about the memory stick. Palms TH55 would have an SD slot and I would be in PDA heaven again as I haven't been since my Clie NR70V days. I am also supposing here that we still had the stable POS of those days. The current mess is ...well it's a mess.
All the friends over at PocketPC Thoughts drooled over the features of the Sony Clies. They are not drooling over the TX. They left Palm behind when Palm failed to keep up with the technology in either hardware or software.
Who told you that Sony lost money on the Clies? They cut and ran on the Clies because the OS was being left for dead and they had a PSP to hype. How could they possibly have lost money on the Clies when they sold for twice what it cost to make them?
You appear to have no idea how little it cost to make a PDA. Dell bought their original PPC PDAs from Wistron for just $160 each. Add $10 for the OS, $10 for shipping and handling and they could sell them profitably for $181. The Palm mono Zire cost less than $50 apiece for the hardware, assembly and all boxed up ready to sell. Most Palms have opened with a 40% or greater markup.
Palm got so lazy and vain over their market dominance and high markup that they left a huge hole for any other product to bury them. That is exactly what WinMob, iPod, cell phones, and RIM are doing. Burying Palm under a pile of POS' own garbage products.

> "...All the friends over at PocketPC Thoughts drooled over the features of the Sony Clies..."

Yes, Clie targetted the same niche geek crowd that wince has segmented. High price, sell at cost to build share, over-featured, too complex for the average consumer. This was very bad thinking. Palm has been much smarter, making a series of market broadening moves and actually making money on each device, unlike Clie and wince. :)

> "...when Palm failed to keep up with the technology..."

Palm has (almost) always aimed for elegance and simplicity. There is no need to be on the bleeding edge: that is not where the money is. That is why, for example, that Palm is profitable, while wince division is being folded. :)

> "...Who told you that Sony lost money on the Clies?..."

Do you really think such highly over-engineered devices could possibly have been profitable at those tiny volumes? Sony never even covered their R&D, let alone the short-run manufacturing costs. Clies were priced to build share, not contribute. :)

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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Some shills are prone to whining about old Clie technical specifications, completely oblivious to the fact that Sony had adopted a strategy of dumping these niche devices on the market at or below cost in order to build share. Duh! :)

This is the same losing strategy that wince adopted all along: add lots of unnecessary features, sell at or below cost, and try to get high-end market share. It didn't work for Clie: eventually the parent took away their toys and made them go and work on something that actually makes money. This is precisely what's going on at wince today: wince division is being rolled into "entertainment", and the platform is dying. M$ has been demanding profits, but there is no way for wince to make a profit: wince simply can't compete with Palm or Symbian on cost or price. :)

Why do shills keep going on about Sony Clie's? Clie failed. They dumped product, didn't make money, and got shut down. Palm has succeed, selling fantastic products that capture the imagination of consumers and carriers. There's no comparison. Sony failed, wince is failing, Palm succeeded. :)

I mean, duh! :)

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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

> "...You're an idiot and a jerk..."

Yeah, that's what the girls say. The funny thing is, they actually seem to *like* us jerks. I've always wondered about that. :)

Of course, I'd rather be a jerk than be an employee at wince division, scared for my job and resorting to panic-stricken posts on Palm sites, like Surur. :)

I mean, shouldn't you be back at your desk, trying to make wince better? Trying to fix the bugs, fix the lousy API, get some developers interested? Or somthing? Or is it too late now? Ha ha ha. :)

You wince guys sure seem to be free nowadays. Not much activity going on? Oh dear, sorry, I crack myself up sometimes. :)

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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Dumba$$ with easy password get hacked plenty quick?

Or are we seeing a monumental struggle for control (of Jeff Kirvin's soul) between the Good Dr and Dr Evil?

You decide.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

> "...Ask 100 veteran Palm users if they would prefer a 2 year old CLIE TH55 or a brand new TX. I doubt any would choose the TX..."

Do you really expect us to believe that people would prefer a 32MB TH55 with 123MHz CPU that could barely play movies, instead of the T|X? Idiot! :)

But let's think back. Sony failed, right, so why was the TH55 such a failure? When the TH55 was released, the Tungsten-C had been out already for over a *year*! The T|C could be bought at the same price as the TH55 launch price, yet the T|C had 64MB ram and a 416Mhz CPU. The TH55 had clearly inferior core specifications to Palm, but what did it add? A fricking camera and a big screen. Yeah, sure fire winner. :)

No self-respecting Palm user was about to settle for a TH55. Idiot. :)

But you're missing the real point. The TH55 failed because, like wince, it was sold at cost or below cost. Why do microsoft shills keep bringing up Clie? Clie failed, becuase they didn't make money. The devices absolutely couldn't compete with Palm and still make money. Just like what is happening with wince. :)

Palm makes a profit, this is why they are still in business. Clie failed to make a profit, which is why they were shut down. Wince division is losing money hand over fist too, and that's why they're being rolled into "entertainment". Happy days for wince engineers. :)

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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

If Ed were in charge of H/S he was agereable to it, but if in charge of Palm ... nada.

I remember hearing all the reasons why they were splitting, and thinking about how all competitors must have been grinning, especially M$. Isn't "divide and conquer" a common strategy that's even better when your enemy does it voluntarily?

Visualize an AppleOne & Applesource split? iMac with WinXP = overpriced dud. HP Pavilion running Mac OS X = non-compatible gray box. Both weak companies absorbed in short order.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

David;

There were a number of rumors (NOT Pat Horneisms either!)of a clamshell T|C2 back last year. Do you recall that buzz? I think the rumors called for a wider/larger keyboard, 480*320 screen, and dual wireless. I have no idea about memory, removable battery, NVFS etc.

Palm likely even had such a design on the drawing board or in prototype form. But that was right around the time the Treo 600 was selling like hotcakes (or starting to build up major steam after the HS acquisition) and Palm didn't want to make the murky 160*160 Treo 600 look any worse than it already did in comparison to the rest of the lineup.

I personally doubt Palm has anything compelling in the works for at least another 6-12 months past a few more rehases of the T|E/T5 formfactor, another cheap Zire style unit and the two Treo 700s. They blew their R&D wad on the LifeDrive in a final attempt to get some publicty with POS. Now it's time to hitch the wagon to the M$ and throw themselves at the mercy of the cellular carriers (it's already being done--witness the crippled BT in the LD & TX--obviously at the behest of Sprint & Verizon).

Treo 700p on Sprint spring '06. Treo 700w on Verizon Jan '06. Tweo final cheapish Garnet PDAs in the spring and a LD2 in the fall and there you have the majority of Palm's release schedule for next year.

I never put any stock in the Palm + Symbian rumors anyway. Palm cobbling together their own Linux strategy to ride side-by-side with FrankenGarnet for '06 and into '07 makes for a much more likely scenario. If Palm cuts the legacy Garnet models down to the BASICS (ie $200 and below units that don't NEED any support $ thrown at them) then Pam can keep on selling those devices while actually "supporting" the WinMob Treo and whatever their homebrewed WR Linux model(s) end up being.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5

Still, the job boards dont lie. Why would Palm write a PIM, even if they are only working to integrate Access's stuff.

Total non-sequitur. Palm licensees have been writing their own PIM apps for years. Palm's done it. Sony did it. Samsung did it. Garmin did it. The fact that they are writing new PIM apps doesn't tell you anything about their OS plans.

Is there a Linux phone in their basement that they developed just as an insurance policy? I doubt it. A company the size of Palm can't afford to develop products that they would release only on some kind of highly uncertain contingency. What I expect they do have at this point is some expertise with Linux. And maybe an early prototype of a next-generation "Third Business" device that runs some kind of Linux.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

But are you sure them that POSLinux isnt also Linux, which he also explicitly said he would not use?

Yes, because they've also made explicit statements that they are planning to switch from Garnet to Palm Linux.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I find your argument relatively convincing, but I said it before, and I'll say it again: A CEO's promises is only worth anything for one financial year. Then 'changing circumstances' make every previous promise worthless.

Surur

> "...Why would Palm write a PIM..."

Idiot. Palm have had their own PIM ever since PalmSource was spun off. :)

Thanks for "contributing", wad. Shouldn't you be writing some press releases to try and spin how the imminent non-existence of the wince division somehow means the wince was doing well? Microsoft doesn't pay you to hang around on these boards and post this garbage, right? :)

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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Isn't it entirey possible that they are lumping WR Linux, Garnet, and possibly the upcoming PalmSource Linux into "Palm OS" and using the term VERY loosely?

I still fail how to see opening a new Euro R&D center and a chain of airport/mall kiosks is going to take the place of aggressive product developement and solid quality control in their actual meat'n potatoes *shipping* products. After all, there are only so many people who can and will buy a Treo 650. Since the sales of CDMA & locked GSM Treos certainly far outweighs the pricey unlocked GSM variants, Palm is setting themselves up for strong initial sales (Treo 700w, anyone?) that will taper off as customers are tied down with contracts and only upgrading every 1-2 years...and a LOT can happen in the mobile world in that time frame.

And what do you mean by "The only way Palm would hitch anything to WinCE..."? The 700w is a done deal and it's happening soon, like it or not. It really matters very little who paid whom. The fact of the matter is that Palm is fielding a non-POS model for the first time in its history within the next 2-3 months. The landscape is changing. If you don't like it, Dr., then take your own advice and use your coding prowess and hack Garnet onto the 700w hardware. Stop waiting for Palm to go ahead and do it for you!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5

> "...Isn't it entirey possible that they are lumping WR Linux, Garnet, and possibly the upcoming PalmSource Linux into "Palm OS" and using the term VERY loosely?..."

It is possible, granted. But I suspect it would be considered fraud by the SEC. They take these sorts of "forward looking statements" very seriously. :)

> "...I still fail how to see opening a new Euro R&D center and a chain of airport/mall kiosks is going to take the place of aggressive product developement and solid quality control..."

What is Palm's goal? Growth. Maybe that can be acheived by "aggressive product development", maybe not. Aggressive product development sounds like parallel development of many small-run units, huge R&D costs, high-risks. Broadening the market is far less risky: that is what the Zire did and the Z|22 continues to do. Expanding into overseas markets is also less risky. That is what the Euro R&D center achieves. The problem with mobile devices is that management of the carrier process is very complex Palm has a fantastic competitive edge here. That is why the Euro center is so awesome: it brings that competitive advantage to bear on the European market. Remember, cracking the Euro market was not a matter of shipping Treo's to Europe-- it means developing the carrier relationships that have made the Treo a huge success in the US market. :)

> "...And what do you mean by 'The only way Palm would hitch anything to WinCE...'?..."

I just meant that Palm is not about to ship any more wince devices, unless they are totally reimbursed for the expense by micrsoft. "Who pays" is actually the only question that matters. If Palm had to pay, there would be no wince Treo period. Palm made money on that deal, without shipping a single devices. Microsuck has a low utility for cash, because they have billions, but a high utility for trying to make wince look successful. Palm has a high utility for cash, but a lower utility for worrying about microsoft's marketing gains. Thus this was a simple and logical relationship. :)

Of course, wince is failing. The division really is about to be folded into a new "entertainment" devision focused on the XBox360. It's game over time for wince... at this time microsoft just wants to exit the PDA battle gracefully. But they're not about to give up the segment: look for the new XP Mobile platform coming soon... :)

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/sep05/09-20ExecChangesPR.mspx

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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."