Comments on: Palm Clarifies Its Support for the Palm OS

New Palm Inc Logo ~ Click for largerPalm CEO Ed Colligan has released an open letter to the Palm Development community. In his letter, he makes clear that Palm will continue to support the Palm OS and that new Palm OS handhelds and Treo smartphones are on Palms product roadmap. Colligan is addressing concerns that Palm's support of Palm OS is short-lived given the announcement of the Windows Mobile Treo. Read on for the full letter.
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Never underestimate PIC's knack...

cervezas @ 11/8/2005 5:43:37 PM # Q
...for spinning gold into straw, Ed.

Thanks for the extra clarification of something that should really have been obvious to anyone really paying attention: Palm's commitment to Palm OS.

I think Colligan is probably more referring less to posts that have happened here than to some gnashing of teeth that took place on the Palm Entrepreneur's Forum, but in any case it's good to be really clear about this stuff, especially if you're going to be slinking around in the bushes at night with the Redmond boys.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Never underestimate PIC's knack...
cervezas @ 11/8/2005 5:52:57 PM # Q
I think Colligan is probably more referring less to posts...

Gah! One of these days I'll learn to read what I've written before I click the Post button.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Written from the heart...
sr4 @ 11/8/2005 5:59:25 PM # Q

Its seems to be a sincere, personally written letter and not some PR fluff. Good for him.

Surur

RE: Never underestimate PIC's knack...
cbowers @ 11/8/2005 6:54:06 PM # Q
Actually "ga" is to come at the end of the sentence...

Reply to this comment

Not very strong.

benway88 @ 11/8/2005 5:35:30 PM # Q
First, big thanks to Palm Infocenter for very engaging news and discussions since I began lurking here over a year ago. Really good stuff.

This letter does not address the uncertainly that is swirling around the tech beehive. Does Palm have a vision or strategy for the future of the Palm platform vs. a Windows Treo?

"[The Treo] in the Windows Mobile platform is all about growing the Treo market. We want to deliver the Palm experience on Windows Mobile."

This could be impossible since Palm has very little input into Windows Mobile. There is a limit to what can be done, since any modification will break compatibility with the existing WinMob ecosystem. A Palm skin over Windows Mobile may not be very much, but we will have to hope there's more. What's left is the solid hardware, but that's a bit like Compaq and Gateway.


"We have a rich product roadmap of Palm OS-based handheld computers, mobile managers AND Treo smartphones that we intend to deliver."

Wonderful, but not a very strong vision for developers to stick with Palm. He makes this very point in the letter -- how extensive the Windows infrastructure is.


The common notion around the tech world is that Palm has gone to windows and this letter is not strong enough to change this reputation. It's actually a strong sales point for shifting over to WinMob.

Palm is in transition from being Apple to being Compaq -- a hardware developer for Windows Mobile. That being said, I enjoy my Treo 650 immensely and will continue with the Palm side of things as long as possible.

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Cannibalism Feeds the Monster

Gekko @ 11/8/2005 6:52:19 PM # Q

Once you let the Monster in the door, it will devour everything.



RE: Cannibalism Feeds the Monster
Dr Opinion @ 11/8/2005 8:15:42 PM # Q
Not at all. :)

In marketing 101 (should you ever decide to pop back and finish that liberal arts degree) you'll discover that any new product decision must take into account possible cannabalism, market expansion, and contribution factors, among others. :)

For example, if a product contributes highly, or grows the market, or both, it may be definitely worth cannablism. In the wince-Treo case Palm is generating market exapansion. Obviously anyone who wanted a Treo with Palm OS *already* has one. Thus the wince-Treo *adds* new users who would have gone to one of the clunky brick-like wince-phones. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Cannibalism Feeds the Monster
Gekko @ 11/8/2005 8:31:12 PM # Q

dr moron - stick with what you know - making bagels.



RE: Cannibalism Feeds the Monster
Dr Opinion @ 11/8/2005 9:25:41 PM # Q
... and spanking shills. :)

>spank< :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Cannibalism Feeds the Monster
feranick @ 11/8/2005 11:34:09 PM # Q
Dr (?) Opinion: it's spelled cannibalism, not cannabalism or cannablism.
RE: Cannibalism Feeds the Monster
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 12:49:24 AM # Q
Actually, the word you're striving to embody is "pedantical" :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
Writing on your Palm
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/9/2005 1:46:44 AM # Q
Actually, the word you're striving to embody is "pedantical" :)

Kirvin, you REALLY need to get back to writing your crappy science fiction serials that no one wants to read. It must hurt you to see that no one is actually willing to PAY for any of the crap you spew out. Is this why you've started "publishing" your screed on Palminfocenter?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Cannibalism Feeds the Monster
Kesh @ 11/9/2005 1:34:21 PM # Q
At least he's more interesting than either you or Gekko, TVoR.

Am I being pedantical? :)
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 1:46:45 PM # Q
> "...need to get back to writing your crappy science fiction serials..."

Hey, if you don't believe it's a word, look it up... :)
http://www.bartleby.com/62/39/P1103950.html

Preferably before you open your mouth and look silly. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Cannibalism Feeds the Monster
feranick @ 11/9/2005 7:44:05 PM # Q
I am expecting a more appropriate use of the English language from a Dr. This is not being pedantical.

Remember: "errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum".

Reply to this comment

Spank the microsuck shills, Ed! :)

Dr Opinion @ 11/8/2005 8:23:34 PM # Q
> "...I'm concerned by the number of posts I've read that suggest that Palm's support of Palm OS is either wavering or short-lived. It is neither..."

Hilarious! The microsuck FUD machine has been cranking on *overtime* trying to spin the wince-Treo into something other than an admission of failure by microsuck! :)

Of couse, if there was a *single* wince licensee in the entire cosmos that could match the Treo, microsuck would have dumped their cash there, instead of dropping millions on a direct competitor. :)

And now all that shill overtime has gone down the tubes, wasted. What a shame. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Reply to this comment

There [are] no...American infidels...in the city of Baghdad.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/8/2005 9:05:43 PM # Q
Here's the statement as it would appear if the B.S. was removed by translating it from B.S. -> Truth at Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/):


Dear Palm Developer,
I'm writing to you today because I'm concerned by the number of developers I've read that are pi$$ed off because they realize that Palm's support of Palm OS is both wavering and short-lived.

I thought I had made this perfectly clear when I sold the OS down the river as Bill Gates stood by smirking during my embarassing announcement on Sept. 26th that we'll be focusing our line of Treo smartphones to showcase the one that businesses likely will prefer: Windows Mobile. It's all about milking the Treo market as long as we can while spending as few development dollars as possible. Business wants Microsoft and we have previously failed to attract business customers because of our own lack of a clear corporation-focused strategy, so the Windows Mobile Treo is a cheap, simple "fix". We like cheap + simple. This is a zero-sum game! We will not be able to support PalmOS 5, PalmLinux AND Windows Mobile all at the same time, so we're jumping on the Windows Mobile bandwagon... at least until we find out if PalmSource can pull off a Hail Mary with PalmLinux.

This market is in its infancy and we've blown the huge lead Handspring had handed to us on a silver platter 2 years ago. At the same time, Microsoft offered us a cheap, easy "solution" in exchange for our souls. Mr. Gates now is the proud new owner of our souls.

We had a chance to appeal to business over the years and become the de facto standard. We blew it. Repeatedly. Now we have sold out in the name of a quick buck. Deal with it!

We have a confused product roadmap of Palm OS-based handheld computers, mobile managers AND Treo smartphones that we can't deliver. Our Palm OS customer loyalty is sinking quickly, but we intend to continue to milk that loyalty with weak Palm OS-based products until even the Palm fanatics recoil in disgust. We have sold more than 30 million Palm OS-based products over the years, but the fad is over and we're playing out the string and going through the motions so we can keep that gravy train going as long as possible. In May we extended our license for Palm OS, giving us the right to continue to make and market Palm OS-based products until 2010 because we thought we could be clever and create a poison pill that would discourage any competitors from buying PalmSource. We've been waiting to buy back PalmSource from the day we sold it and even fronted them $30 million to keep it out of the hands of shareholders. But that all blew up in our face thanks to those a-holes at Motorola being so desperate for an OS.

So, I'd like to ask you to look at our Windows Mobile news as proof that we have no loyalty to users or developers. We have no intention of continuing to support our Palm OS developers or to encourage the expansion of the weakening array of consumer and enterprise applications and peripherals for Palm OS. We're shocked Access has initiated the purchase of PalmSource but at least Access isn't as threatening to us as Motorola. Plus, we put that clever poison pill into the PalmSource contract a few months ago that guarantees us PalmOS as long as it will matter. By the time our contract expires, people will have REAL desktop OS variants on their handhelds and PalmOS will be obsolete.

I believe that milking our starving assets dry and flogging a moribund horse is what Palm has always done best. Also we're good at being arrogant, wasting money, missing OBVIOUS market trends/opportunities and screwing developers at whim. I hope you will agree.

Regards,

"Baghdad" Ed Colligan
Palm, Inc. president and CEO


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: There [are] no...American infidels...in the city of Bagh
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 12:40:39 AM # Q
Ha! Sucks to be wrong, huh, voice-of-dumbness? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: There [are] no...American infidels...in the city of Baghdad.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/9/2005 1:57:57 AM # Q
Ha! Sucks to be wrong, huh

Kirvin, that's a question you more accurately should be addressing to Mr. Colligan.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: There [are] no...American infidels...in the city of Bagh
LiveFaith @ 11/9/2005 10:15:22 AM # Q
VR,

I think I swallowed my tongue twice trying to stop from laughing. That is beyond hillarious!

You know, there is a real business opportunity in what you just did. Maybe a lawsuit too, tho? Start a web portal that takes each days breaking financial press releases and does this kind of translation. It could be huge! Probably help investors more too. :-0

When you hit the big ca$h, remember little me.

Again, This is a classic!

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: There [are] no...American infidels...in the city of Baghdad.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/9/2005 10:53:08 PM # Q
When you hit the big ca$h, remember little me.

Only if I get a cut of your Treo design fees!

;-O

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: There [are] no...American infidels...in the city of Bagh
LiveFaith @ 11/10/2005 11:13:48 AM # Q
I'll give you that now! :-O

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: There [are] no...American infidels...in the city of Baghdad.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/11/2005 6:26:04 AM # Q
I'll give you that now! :-O


We'll see if you're saying that in a few months...

[cue mysterious music]


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Sigh of relief.

Tuckermaclain @ 11/8/2005 10:34:34 PM # Q
Can't wait for the new Treo phones. Just like Ed says--some people have to have wince. Windows is the de facto business standard. Personally, I would use my old m500 before I went to any wince device--maybe even my Vx. Now that the CEO addressed our greatest fears (demise of the OS) we can sit back and wait for some good Treos to roll out. Zire 22 form with phone and SD card would be KILLER!! Palm is obviously not dead yet. Best news I've heard on PIC for a long time.
RE: Sigh of relief.
Tuckermaclain @ 11/8/2005 10:47:50 PM # Q
Let me clarify before I get flamed: by "demise of the OS" I refer the the virtually assured lack of new Palm OS devices if Palm abandoned the OS for wince as some suggest. Maybe some mutated plinux would be the next model to see the light of day. Let wince run the business world. If Palm can survive in Gate's shadow as Apple does with a smaller market share and innovative products it would be fine with me.

RE: Sigh of relief.
AdamaDBrown @ 11/9/2005 1:01:41 AM # Q
Not agreeing or disagreeing, but just pointing out that the Palm = Apple comparison isn't entirely valid. Apple has a small part of a huge market (as well as several valuable niches, and a booming CE division that contributes considerably to their bottom line). The handheld market isn't nearly as large as the PC market, and thus can't support a company entirely on as little marketshare as Apple has in PCland.

RE: Sigh Not
benway88 @ 11/9/2005 3:45:03 AM # Q
Apple never adopted the Windows OS for their hardware -- Microsoft is a licensed developer to Apple. Size of the market has nothing to do with it, as computers used to be a small marketplace.

IBM did run with WIndows OS with their OS/2 platform. It was then game over, and they recently vacated the PC business.

RE: Sigh of relief.
LiveFaith @ 11/9/2005 10:20:20 AM # Q
Ben,

Running windows on OS2 was a desperate move from a company that just got sucka-punched by M$. It was game over when the first commercials ran to the tune of "Start Me Up".

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

Reply to this comment

Palm reads posts????

Frenchie @ 11/8/2005 10:59:36 PM # Q
When has Palm ever read forum posts???

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p
RE: Palm reads posts????
cervezas @ 11/8/2005 11:13:26 PM # Q
Oh, they definitely listen in to the Palm Entrepreneurs Forum and Palm Developers Forums. And Ben Combee is about as close to omnipresent as a mortal can be. It's almost scary.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Palm reads posts???? Of course they do.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/9/2005 12:01:18 AM # Q
When has Palm ever read forum posts???

Ummmm... when have they not? Even back in the Usenet days there have been Palm people everywhere. Power users/early adopters on fan sites act as unpaid beta testers, providing invaluable feedback to Palm. From the beginning we've seen regular posts to PalmInfocenter (both anonymous and "official") from various Palm and PalmSource employees. Several so-called "leaks" to Palminfocenter and PalmStation regarding upcoming devices were actually just calclated publicity stunts by Palm. While valid contributions from these employees is always welcome, the pathetic Astroturfing and spin doctoring as practiced by a few Palm/PalmSource employees is truly odious.

Michael Mace was too naive to take seriously, but I will continue to "out" people like Marty Fouts who feel they can manipulate Palm supporters with their specious posts to the fan sites.


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm reads posts????
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 12:42:04 AM # Q
> "...the pathetic Astroturfing and spin doctoring as practiced by a few Palm/PalmSource employees is truly odious..."

The pathetic astroturding and shilling by microsuck employees (and the odd former loser-daytrader like yourself) is even *more* odious. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Palm reads posts????
LiveFaith @ 11/9/2005 10:22:55 AM # Q
Please. PIC forums is where Palm does market research. They see the killer reaction to the Treo 490x, 800g, Z33 & TE3 etc, and then go another direction. :-)

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Palm reads posts????
Frenchie @ 11/9/2005 10:43:22 AM # Q
Who would like to point me out to these forums? ;-)

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p
RE: Palm reads posts????
rsc1000 @ 11/9/2005 1:36:31 PM # Q
>>but I will continue to "out" people like Marty Fouts who feel they can manipulate Palm supporters with their specious posts to the fan sites.

Gee - on behalf on Palm OS users everywhere: thanks for the service! We are trully indepted that you are look out for our interests!
dipsh!t

RE: Palm reads posts????
fierywater @ 11/9/2005 10:36:21 PM # Q
Do you speak English? Dipsh!t, indeed.

RE: Palm reads posts????
twrock @ 11/9/2005 11:37:18 PM # Q
I was getting ready to post a reply, but then I saw what rsc1000 wrote. That about covers it.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Morons
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/11/2005 5:59:16 AM # Q
The dipsh!t is calling you from your mirror. Go to him. Now. Don't make him wait.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm reads posts????
Simony @ 11/12/2005 12:26:44 AM # Q
This priceless - a Bozo calling someone else a 'moron'.

RE: Palm reads posts????
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/12/2005 1:29:25 AM # Q
This priceless - a Bozo calling someone else a 'moron'.

This priceless - Bozo Simony not know how read or quote. He idiot.

Bozo Simony: you funny. You big dipsh!t.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm reads posts????
Simony @ 11/12/2005 1:50:32 AM # Q
It was nearly as good as when Mo called Curly a 'moron'. Brilliant comedy.

Reply to this comment

Sept 26th announcement

JarJar @ 11/8/2005 10:51:36 PM # Q
It isn't one announcement on Sept 26th that makes me question Palm's commitment to the Palm OS. It has been the past several years. If Palm was serious about continuing in the market they would have followed through on Cobalt (or some OS) instead of sitting on Garnet.

Examine the comment:
"we extended our license for Palm OS, giving us the right to continue to make and market Palm OS-based products until 2010"

I'll translate this to mean that they have made the minimum commitment to stay on the Garnet train. i.e. a lesser license.

Commitment to the Palm OS platform needs to be demonstrated in action not some press release. If they are committed to the platform then customers should see evidence of forward progress. All I see is the same franken-Garnet that is 5 years old (or older in some parts) running on devices that are mild variations of devices designed 3 years ago. I see no commitment to true improvement.

RE: Sept 26th announcement
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 12:43:28 AM # Q
> "...If Palm was serious about continuing in the market they would have followed through on Cobalt (or some OS) instead of sitting on Garnet..."

Palm couldn't justify beginning to write new drivers for Cobalt from scratch, when they already had a perfectly reasonable OS that would allow them to get devices on the shelves quickly. :)


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Sept 26th announcement
JarJar @ 11/9/2005 12:13:02 PM # Q
"when they already had a perfectly reasonable OS"

I apologize if I can't tell whether you are speaking literally or facetiously.

Palm had a working OS that would allow them to get devices on shelves. But Garnet is far from perfectly reasonable. Garnet has been stretched far beyond its original design. Treo 650s, LifeDrives, TXs are subject to constant crashing and are not the rock-solid-easy-to-use handheld like the Palm Pilots of old. This isn't a Treo 650 bug that can be fixed. Garnet was never designed for multitasking; Garnet was never designed to handle larger amounts of memory; it has bandaids on top of bandaids.

If Palm was serious about continuing forward they would have moved toward some OS that was adequate for currents needs. I'm not naive user who just wants "New!" OS just for the sake of it. There are solid technical reasons why Garnet is outdated and inadequate.

RE: Sept 26th announcement
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 1:11:44 PM # Q
> "...Treo 650s, LifeDrives, TXs are subject to constant crashing..."

The T|X has been widely reported to be rock-steady, and mine certainly hasn't crashed once. :)

Sure, the might be teething problems in some supporting software when a radically new technology comes out, like the free email client bundled with the lifedrive. But teething problems due to new technology are *definitely* not going to be better on a completely new OS. Period. :)

> "...There are solid technical reasons why Garnet is outdated and inadequate..."

No, there are not. Microsoft desperately claimed that there was some obscure text-message related capability that Palm OS could never replicate, but it turned out they were wrong. :)

In a typical day, how often does the average user use multitasking, apart from playing music or checking mail in the background, or staying connected to a chat service? :)

Well, I play music, check mail, and stay connected to a chat service, all in the background. All using the Palm OS. Amazing. And pefectly adequate. :)

But don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to Palm Linux, of course. :)



------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: Sept 26th announcement
JarJar @ 11/9/2005 1:40:13 PM # Q
"No, there are not."
Where are you getting this? I am glad that your TX experience has been solid, and perhaps TX will turn out better than 650. But I am talking about long term instability not specific bugs or "teething" problems.

"Microsoft desperately claimed that there was some obscure text-message related capability that Palm OS could never replicate, but it turned out they were wrong."
As far as Microsoft is concerned--you are probably right--Microsoft was grasping at straws. Microsoft is certainly trying to make the Palm OS look bad. But the fact remains that Garnet is outdated and outstretched on its own merits.

Many users and even a potential class action suit point to the overall instabilities of the 650. Can you find any developers [who can see the code] that support the view that Garnet is rocksolid? There are a thousand statements on the Palm OS developers newsgroup that suggest Garnet is a patchwork hack.

A rickety patchwork with duct tape fixes is not a "teething" issue. Duct tape problems can be fixed with more duct tape in the short run, but these kinds of solutions do not give confidence that Palm is investing in long term support.

RE: Sept 26th announcement
sr4 @ 11/9/2005 2:05:59 PM # Q
D.O. is always facetious. Did you not notice the smilie?

Surur

RE: Sept 26th announcement
ChiA @ 11/9/2005 7:58:40 PM # Q
Dr Opinion said:

The T|X has been widely reported to be rock-steady, and mine certainly hasn't crashed once.

Try switching it on first :)

Sure, the might be teething problems in some supporting software when a radically new technology comes out, like the free email client bundled with the lifedrive.
If it crashes with software which the manufacturer installs, what hope is there for when the user installs their own third-party software? The bundled software is a showcase for what the device can do; if it crashes it doesn't exactly instill confidence in a new user.

"...There are solid technical reasons why Garnet is outdated and inadequate..."
No, there are not.

In other words you regard the 4K clipboard limit and bleep bleep alarms from 1994 as being perfectly acceptable for a PDA in 2005, never mind 2009.

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: Sept 26th announcement
hkklife @ 11/10/2005 11:44:23 AM # Q
The good Dr. has really gone off of the deep end. It's a sure sign that not all is right with the good ship Palm when a NINE year POS user such as myself gets TWO LifeDrives that crash repeatedly when trying to do simply tasks like mobile-formatted pages in landscape mode in Blazer (BUNDLED & PRE-LOADED) or download TEXT e-mails from multiple POP accounts in (bundled & pre-loaded) VersaMail.

Yes, the TX is quite solid and a great value when you can get it below MSRP but it still has its own small quirks (the power button, for one) not to mention a deal-breaker or two (broken Bluetooth, no charge LED)

Teething problems? VersaMail *IS* MultiMail. It's been bundled with all Palms since, what, the i705? That's 4+ years to get it right, dammit!

I ca live with the Pilot alarm sounds and the 4k Memo limit. But intentionally crippling handhelds in order to try to make the (also crippled) Treo look more appealing is simply pathetic. And, again, I'm still curious if/when the LD ROM update will ever be released. Palm has gone into absolute hibernation since the launch of the Z22 & TX. Anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why? And "They're preparing for the 700W launch" isn't reason enough.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5

RE: Sept 26th announcement
hkklife @ 11/10/2005 4:37:31 PM # Q
Thanks, Gekko. Well, I was wrong on the TX pricing strategy per se but my predictions about *something* being a deal-breaker (crippled Bluetooth) came true yet again. Nice article there on the Register, btw. How'd you recognize that quote as one of mine? I had to go back and reread the PIC story just to be certain that was something I had written.

I really feel like I am about to throw in the towel for POS. If something like a Treo 700p was available *NOW* I might make the jump but the 650 has too many compromises. Thanks to Palm's glacial release schedule it'll be May/June before a 650 alternative on Verizon is available. I'll either buy another T5 and try to ride it out as long as possible, "regress" Mike Cane-style with a cheap Zire or T|E2 or just give up entirely when my current T5 is toast.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5

The solution to your Palm headaches:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/10/2005 4:50:50 PM # Q
I really feel like I am about to throw in the towel for POS.

Get a European TH55. Come to the dark side, Luke. Life is good...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Sept 26th announcement
hkklife @ 11/10/2005 6:24:18 PM # Q
But Voice, TWO 2gb SD cards, a 1gb card for backup/spare MP3s, and a handful of Athena connector accessories.

But, you still make a compelling argument for the old Clie.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5

RE: Sept 26th announcement
Gekko @ 11/10/2005 7:12:26 PM # Q

The Clie is the past, the Treo is the future. Stick with the future.

RE: Sept 26th announcement
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/10/2005 9:44:40 PM # Q
The Clie is the past, the Treo is the future. Stick with the future.

Your naive infatuation with the Treo 650 is sweet, Geeko so I'll cut you some slack.

hkklife: I've seen the future... stick with the past.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

CLIE TH55 - still the best traditional PDA ever made.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/10/2005 9:57:44 PM # Q
But Voice, TWO 2gb SD cards, a 1gb card for backup/spare MP3s, and a handful of Athena connector accessories.

But, you still make a compelling argument for the old Clie.

hkklife, sometimes you have to make painful decisions in life. Ask yourself what's the better route: spending a few hundred $ on more memory cards but having a superb PDA or saving those cards and constantly pulling your hair out over bugs, crashes and crappy quality. I made my decision and loaded up the bunker with Euro TH55, UX50 and VZ90. Those who failed to heed my advice when these models were still available are now begging me to thin the herd and provide them with a "gift".

Only you know what your priorities are, but from your posts I think you would be FAR more satisfied with the TH55. Just ask someone who owns one to lend it to you for a week. You probably won't give it back.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/8/2005 10:28:43 PM # Q
Dear Ed Colligan (or anyone at Palm that actually still gives a rat's a$$ about the platform and isn't there just waiting to collect even MORE stock bonuses),


I'm writing to you today because I'm concerned by the number of signs I've seen that suggest that Palm's support of PalmOS is either wavering or short-lived.

First of all, what the he11 were you thinking when you split up the company? Very clever, that one. Palm's strength was the ability to control its destiny and IP by owning both the OS and the hardware - like Apple. With so many former Apple execs working at Palm, didn't ANYONE pipe up and say the split was a bad idea? Yes, I know the split generated a TON of money but the ethics behind this seem questionable at best. I'm surprised no one has sued yet.

What has happened to hardware QUALITY at Palm? When did "barely adequate" become acceptable? Since production was shipped to China, Palm's hardware has become an embarassment. Those of us who have been burned often stop buying or recommending Palm branded equipment.

Why has it taken so long to introduce a small, basic, phone-centric $200 PalmOS phone? Is THIS rocket science? http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treo800g.jpg

Next, Why didn't Palm aggresively push Good Technology's "push" email to businesses? You could have beaten Blackberry. Now, (almost in 2006) you're just a follower.

What the he11 are you thinking with those kiosks/Palm Stores? Is it THAT hard to get employees that actually have a clue or who care? Have the people working there ever actually OWNED a Palm? If you want to use these store to promote Palm/PalmOS, they should be a fun way to let people know what Palms are capable of. Set up a PDA that beams customers freeware. (BeamPRO EXPO costs about $60. I'm sure you could find a Tungsten T5 to install it on...) Make sure your stock is up to date + reasonably priced. Make sure all PDAs have demo models that are in good condition + fully charged. Enlist the help of the local Palm User Group when looking for employes...

Is innovation DEAD at Palm? Are you capable of producing something as innovative as the CLIE UX50, or are we to only expect reheated versions based on the Tungsten E and Treo 600 ad infinutum?

I hope you make a TON of money on the Windows Mobile Treos, because their existence has already damaged (irreparably?) the PalmOS platform.

Why is Palm's included software still so primitive? Why haven't freeware apps like TCPMP, HandyShopper and Diddlebug been licenced?

Why is Palm's executive compensation so high? Is this appropriate?

Regards,

TVoR
TVoR, Inc. President and CEO



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
benway88 @ 11/9/2005 4:03:15 AM # Q
One nice way to enjoy power is to have a "Us Against Them" struggle to get people energized.

Only now for Palm, there's no more "Them".

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Frank Wilkinson @ 11/9/2005 5:35:17 AM # Q
Dr Opinion wrote:

"Actually, the word you're striving to embody is "pedantical"

No it's not old boy, it's 'pedantic'. Saying that someone is 'pedantical' is a bit like saying that he's 'terrifical'.

Frank Wilkinson U.K.

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/9/2005 6:08:56 AM # Q
No it's not old boy, it's 'pedantic'. Saying that someone is 'pedantical' is a bit like saying that he's 'terrifical'.

I believe that was an intentional "mistake" by the Dr Opinion troll, hoping someone would correct him so that he could then respond, continue his trolling/cry for help. (At least I hope so. If Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin actually believes there is such a word then it would appear that the tabes dorsalis and Korsakoff's syndrome have won their battle to control his diseased mind.)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Windows Mobile Treo = "New Coke". A deadly gamble.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/9/2005 6:18:27 AM # Q
One nice way to enjoy power is to have a "Us Against Them" struggle to get people energized.

Only now for Palm, there's no more "Them".

Even though Palm is supposedly now an OS-agnostic PDA company, as far as the Real World is concerned, Palm = PalmOS. By choosing to sell a Microsoft-powered device and opting to make a quick buck, Palm has completely undermined the PalmOS platform and conceded defeat.

The Windows Mobile Treo is analogous to "New Coke". I believe Palm is planning to rake in the quick profits from the Windows Mobile Treo as they wait to see if PalmLinux will pan out. If PalmLinux comes to market on time in 2006 (highly doubtful), Palm can then triumphantly return with it as their version of "Classic Coke". The problem with this strategy is that it fails to take into account the effects of momentum and market/developer opinion. Once a platform's/app's downward spiral begins, historically it has been impossible to reverse unless the dominant platform/app intervenes on the shrinking platform's/app's behalf for some reason (e.g. Microsoft + Apple). Each month that goes by without PalmLinux being on the market, the lower Palm's marketshare numbers will drop. The threshold of The Point Of No Return is rapidly approaching. Once customers and developers feel PalmOS is dead, it IS dead - whether or not the technology is still vaible (or even better than the competition). It's all about opinion. Remember how quickly Netscape imploded after years of dominance?

Palm - arrogant as ever - failed to realize that developers are the most important part of the so-called Palm eCONomy. Pi$$ them off enough times and they will abandon the platform. Once they leave, they're not likely to come back. Instead of reaching out to developers and doing everything to keep them on board the (circled) Palm Bandwagons (if one may mix metaphors!), Palm's kneejerk response has been to blame the developers. Truly bizarre. Palm has no one to blame for its current situation but itself. The decisions being made at Palm are so strange it makes one wonder if the company has been infiltrated by saboteurs from the Redmond Special Forces team...


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Windows Mobile Treo = "New Coke". A deadly gamble.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/9/2005 7:07:21 AM # Q
Once customers and developers feel PalmOS is dead, it IS dead - whether or not the technology is still viable...

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
cervezas @ 11/9/2005 9:18:08 AM # Q
Once customers and developers feel PalmOS is dead, it IS dead - whether or not the technology is still viable

TVoR, if you really believe this why do you work so tirelessly to try to convince people that Palm OS is dead? This is something I have never understood. If the answer is "because it's true" then surely you must feel that your work is done here. Move on, Missy.

I realize this isn't going to happen what with your psychological condition and the sick co-dependent thing you've got going here, but every once in a while someone has got to point out that all things considered you are an embarrassment and detriment to the Palm OS community. Critics like Surer and hkklife, by contrast, do a great service, but you are unable to separate your paranoid delusions from facts and force both down our throats on a daily basis. It's just a shame.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Gekko @ 11/9/2005 9:24:22 AM # Q

My responses for Ed:

1. First of all, what the he11 were you thinking when you split up the company?

That wasn't my idea - I already said in an interview that I wouldn't have done it. However, hindsight is 20/20.

2. What has happened to hardware QUALITY at Palm? When did "barely adequate" become acceptable? Since production was shipped to China, Palm's hardware has become an embarassment. Those of us who have been burned often stop buying or recommending Palm branded equipment.

We sell a lot of smartphones and PDAs. Our quality control is on par with the rest of the consumer electronics industry. If we were as bad as you think we are, we would not be profitable or sell as many devices as we do. Many times the complainers are the loudest and the satisfied and silent.

3. Why has it taken so long to introduce a small, basic, phone-centric $200 PalmOS phone? Is THIS rocket science? http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treo800g.jpg

Our market research shows that the market does not want a device that does not have a keyboard. Having a 480x320 devices AND a keyboard would simply make the device too big and our research also shows that consumers want SMALL smartphones. 480x320 only appeals to a small niche market anyway. We are working on a lower-priced Treo. Stay tuned.

4. Next, Why didn't Palm aggresively push Good Technology's "push" email to businesses? You could have beaten Blackberry. Now, (almost in 2006) you're just a follower.

We believe that our partnerships with Blackberry (Connect) and Microsoft (Windows Mobile 5.0/MS Exchange) position us perfectly in the push email business.

5. What the he11 are you thinking with those kiosks/Palm Stores? Is it THAT hard to get employees that actually have a clue or who care? Have the people working there ever actually OWNED a Palm? If you want to use these store to promote Palm/PalmOS, they should be a fun way to let people know what Palms are capable of. Set up a PDA that beams customers freeware. (BeamPRO EXPO costs about $60. I'm sure you could find a Tungsten T5 to install it on...) Make sure your stock is up to date + reasonably priced. Make sure all PDAs have demo models that are in good condition + fully charged. Enlist the help of the local Palm User Group when looking for employes...

The Palm Stores and Kiosks are not as big of an investment for us as you might think. We basically partner and piggyback off of existing retail companies like "Airport Wireless". They already have the stores and employees. They run the stores and we simply provide signage, product, and low-level marketing assistance. This is not an area that we want to focus our resources on, it was simply an inexpensive way for us to increase our brand exposure to a large amount of potential target customers.

6. Is innovation DEAD at Palm? Are you capable of producing something as innovative as the CLIE UX50, or are we to only expect reheated versions based on the Tungsten E and Treo 600 ad infinutum?

Our market research shows that demand for such niche products are small. Hence, the exit of Sony from the market.

7. Why is Palm's included software still so primitive? Why haven't freeware apps like TCPMP, HandyShopper and Diddlebug been licenced?

We prefer to let our customers decide which software they'd like to put on their device rather than be forced to buy software they might not use through higher Palm device prices.

8. Why is Palm's executive compensation so high? Is this appropriate?

It is less than or equal to the levels of our peers in the industry.



RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
LiveFaith @ 11/9/2005 10:29:05 AM # Q
Gekko,

Wow. That's pretty good spin control there.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Gekko @ 11/9/2005 10:30:04 AM # Q

i know how business works in the real world.



RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
JarJar @ 11/9/2005 12:33:00 PM # Q
Gekko, you do a great Colligan impersonation.

How much of that do you really believe or were you primarily mocking Colligan?

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 12:46:07 PM # Q
> "...you are unable to separate your paranoid delusions from facts ..."

It's even more pathetic than that. Voice-of-dumbness actually believes he's somehow punishing "Palm" for "making" the stock move in a different direction than he wanted, making him lose a lot of money. :)

This is despite the fact that (1) different people work there now, (2) it's a different management team, and of course, (3) it was his choice to play with the adults and try to the beat the market, etc, etc. :)

Sad really. :)


------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 1:08:00 PM # Q
> "...Saying that someone is 'pedantical' is a bit like saying that he's 'terrifical'..."

Moron. :)

(1) Reply to the right thread.
(2) Look up a word in a *good* dictionary before you claim it doesn't exist. You look like a total wad otherwise when someone subsequently links directly to the definition of that same word.

Like this, for example:
http://www.bartleby.com/62/39/P1103950.html

And let's recall the Bard:
Taffeta phrases, silken terms precise,
Three-piled hyperboles, spruce affectation,
Figures pedantical; these summer flies
Have blown me full of maggot ostentation:
I do forswear them.
[LLL 5.2.407]

http://www.shakespeare-online.com/quotes/lllquotes.html

> "...If Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin actually believes there is such a word then..."

Oh, yeah, voice-of-dumbness -- you're a moron too. Read a book. :)

Hope this helped. :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Gekko == Ed Colligan
Dr Opinion @ 11/9/2005 1:26:42 PM # Q
> "...i know how business works in the real world..."

OK, Geeko's cover is blown. :)

Finally we learn who he is... Geeko... IS... ED COLLIGAN!!!!



------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
LiveFaith @ 11/9/2005 1:34:59 PM # Q
Wrong! Gekko knows how business works in the real world. Colligen ... well?

** That was just a joke. Actually, I'm quite impressed with Ed Colligen. The little flat-bottom boat continues to float in midst of the raging sea.

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
JarJar @ 11/9/2005 2:12:14 PM # Q
"Actually, I'm quite impressed with Ed Colligen. The little flat-bottom boat continues to float in midst of the raging sea."

Palm continues to survive as a company. The management has fantastical milking and spinning abilities, though I don't think that we should admire that as if it were a virtue or talent.

The Palm I loved that made innovative devices is already dead. The Palm that I knew that had incredible industrial design and made the Palm V is dead. The Palm that mocked Microsoft and laughed at Dell is dead. The Palm that made the affordable and high quality Pilot is dead.

What we have today is a company of unimaginative overpaid guys milking every last drop out of the Palm name and then giving themselves bonuses for surviving. These guys are alive and they may even survive for many more years. But the Palm I knew is dead.

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Frank Wilkinson @ 11/9/2005 5:47:37 PM # Q
Dr Opinion wrote:

Saying that someone is 'pedantical' is a bit like saying that he's 'terrifical'..."

Moron. :)

(1) Reply to the right thread.
(2) Look up a word in a *good* dictionary before you claim it doesn't exist. You look like a total wad otherwise when someone subsequently links directly to the definition of that same word.

I'm not a moron, I'm British, you know, the people who invented the language. In English, there is no such word as 'pedantical'. You may act pedantically or you may act in a pedantic way, not a pedantical way. I'm just sorry to see what you Yanks are doing to our language. It's aready 'gotten' under my skin!



Frank Wilkinson U.K.

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
cervezas @ 11/9/2005 6:13:11 PM # Q
I'm just sorry to see what you Yanks are doing to our language.

Huh? Since when was Shakespeare a Yank?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan. Bring it on, Bubba.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/10/2005 6:27:19 AM # Q
My responses for Ed:

>>>1. First of all, what the he11 were you thinking when you split up the company?

That wasn't my idea - I already said in an interview that I wouldn't have done it. However, hindsight is 20/20.

No, Edkko, FOREsight is what separates good companies from bankrupt ones. By "you" I'm referreing to Palm - not Colligan specifically (he wasn't even on board at the time of the bogus "split"). Even casual observers predicted that a split would be disastrous. From Day 1 I've maintained that the split was a sham designed to generate bogus millions at the expense of investors. The slick little $30 million "gift" to PalmSource for the Palm name followed almost immediately by the attempt to merge the companies is more than a little suspicious. Perhaps all very legal, but I guess we'll see if bilked investors agree.

>>2. What has happened to hardware QUALITY at Palm? When did "barely adequate" become acceptable? Since production was shipped to China, Palm's hardware has become an embarassment. Those of us who have been burned often stop buying or recommending Palm branded equipment.

We sell a lot of smartphones and PDAs. Our quality control is on par with the rest of the consumer electronics industry. If we were as bad as you think we are, we would not be profitable or sell as many devices as we do. Many times the complainers are the loudest and the satisfied and silent.

First of all, Palm is barely profitable and until recently has been losing bucketloads of money. The company's meagre profits are primarily due to the competitive advantage conferred by the gift of the Handspring Treo 600 along with the loss of competition from Sony's exit. Now that the rest of the industry has figured out the Treo 600 they will simply undercut Palm. And is Palm's QC really "on par with the rest of the consumer electronics industry"? The figures I've seen showed astronomical return rates for Treo 600. Please quote some actual figures to back your assertion up, Edkko. Also, has the defect rate increased for Palm over the past 5 years. I assume the company has stats on this. I'll bet Quality Control plummetted when production was shifted to China.

>>>3. Why has it taken so long to introduce a small, basic, phone-centric $200 PalmOS phone? Is THIS rocket science?

http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treo800g.jpg

Our market research shows that the market does not want a device that does not have a keyboard. Having a 480x320 devices AND a keyboard would simply make the device too big and our research also shows that consumers want SMALL smartphones. 480x320 only appeals to a small niche market anyway. We are working on a lower-priced Treo. Stay tuned.

Nonsense. "Normal" people like small, light phones. This comprises the bulk of the cellphone market. Palm needs to expand its user base. Treo 650-style phones will always be a limited market by virtue of the phone's size, weight + expense. Common sense dictates that the way to profitability is through saturating the mass market and becoming the industry standard. Palm had a golden opportunity to do so in 2003-4 and blew it. "Stay tuned"? We've been waiting for YEARS already. The market is cutthroat and will not wait for Palm to get their act together. If Palm can't figure out how to make a small, light, semi-smartphone, I'm sure Nokia, Motorola, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, etc. will be only too happy to fill that gap. Palm is giving up a market that they actually created without a fight. Pathetic.

>>>4. Next, Why didn't Palm aggresively push Good Technology's "push" email to businesses? You could have beaten Blackberry. Now, (almost in 2006) you're just a follower.

We believe that our partnerships with Blackberry (Connect) and Microsoft (Windows Mobile 5.0/MS Exchange) position us perfectly in the push email business.

Palm is now behind the times. Compare the number of deployments of GoodLink to the number of Blackberry installs. Does GoodLink (or Seven) have even 1% of the deployments (or # of users) as Blackberry? Palm's solution got massacred. Even Joe Public knows about what Blackberry does for email. Does ANYONE (including the average IT department guru) know that Palm can do the same? What's that? Can't hear you Edkko. And where is Blackberry Connect for Palm, by the way? It's bad enough that you've resorted to using a competitor's solution, but we still have yet to see this vaporware despite a year of promises. And is MS Exchange for PalmOS ready for prime time? There are rumblings that it has been quietly crippled.

>>>5. What the he11 are you thinking with those kiosks/Palm Stores? Is it THAT hard to get employees that actually have a clue or who care? Have the people working there ever actually OWNED a Palm? If you want to use these store to promote Palm/PalmOS, they should be a fun way to let people know what Palms are capable of. Set up a PDA that beams customers freeware. (BeamPRO EXPO costs about $60. I'm sure you could find a Tungsten T5 to install it on...) Make sure your stock is up to date + reasonably priced. Make sure all PDAs have demo models that are in good condition + fully charged. Enlist the help of the local Palm User Group when looking for employes...

The Palm Stores and Kiosks are not as big of an investment for us as you might think. We basically partner and piggyback off of existing retail companies like "Airport Wireless". They already have the stores and employees. They run the stores and we simply provide signage, product, and low-level marketing assistance. This is not an area that we want to focus our resources on, it was simply an inexpensive way for us to increase our brand exposure to a large amount of potential target customers.

Really? Is that true that Palm merely contracts out to have their stores set up + run? Even if that's the case, that service isn't free. How much money has been blown on stores that opened up only to be closed within a year? Or stores that are still around draining profits from Palm? Do these stores generate any profits at all? Or any goodwill? Palm veterans that have visited these stores are almost unanimous in pointing out that they are poorly designed/staffed/stocked. How is this supposed to help Palm grow the market? What most of us don't understand is that since it wouldn't take much money or effort to create a more effective storefront for Palm, if you're going to go through the bother of doing these kiosks/stores, why not do it right?

>>>6. Is innovation DEAD at Palm? Are you capable of producing something as innovative as the CLIE UX50, or are we to only expect reheated versions based on the Tungsten E and Treo 600 ad infinutum?

Our market research shows that demand for such niche products are small. Hence, the exit of Sony from the market.

Sony did not leave because "demand for such niche products are small". In fact, from the beginning they created PDAs that covered the ENTIRE spectrum of the market. Innovation is what drives companies and helps expand (or sustain) their market. Eventually, a company's core product will no longer be viable and unless it has something new/innovative to move on to, the company is fcuked. Look at how Apple has managed to stay in business. If they were run by Palm all they would be selling in 2005 would be polkadot iMacs, striped iMacs, neon iMacs and Special Edition Michael Jordan (or more likely Michael Jackson) iMacs - to an ever declining group of rabid Mac Cultists. Companies that fail to innovate go bankrupt. Period. Were it not for acquiring the INNOVATION of Handspring and its Treo 600, Palm may already be bankrupt. Has Palm had an innovative product since the Tungsten T3? Everything they put out is either an incremental upgrade or a gimmick. And sorry, but a PDA with an enclosed Microdrive (as opposed to one you can simply slide into the CompactFlash slot as needed!) is NOT an innovation. Neither is using OnDisk CrapRAMô. Nor is peeling paint on the Zire 72. I suppose one could make an argument that the low price of the TX is a innovation in some ways but that's not the kind of "innovation" a small company like Palm can rely on for sustaining their growth. Especially with 800 pound ultra-efficient gorillas like Dell as competition.


>>>7. Why is Palm's included software still so primitive? Why haven't freeware apps like TCPMP, HandyShopper and Diddlebug been licenced?

We prefer to let our customers decide which software they'd like to put on their device rather than be forced to buy software they might not use through higher Palm device prices.

Ummm... "Why haven't freeware apps like TCPMP, HandyShopper and Diddlebug been licenced? Palm could be improving the functionality of users' PDAs for next-to-nothing. But they can't be bothered. Instead, we get 10 year old PIM apps, 10 year old bleeping alarms designed for the original Pilot and a shoddy multimedia experience. Well done, Palm.

>>>8. Why is Palm's executive compensation so high? Is this appropriate?

It is less than or equal to the levels of our peers in the industry.

Have Palm's executives EARNED their bloated compensation, though? What's that? Can't hear you, Edkko.


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan. Bring it on, Bubba.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/10/2005 8:03:12 AM # Q
My responses for Ed:

>>>1. First of all, what the he11 were you thinking when you split up the company?

That wasn't my idea - I already said in an interview that I wouldn't have done it. However, hindsight is 20/20.

No, Edkko, FOREsight is what separates good companies from bankrupt ones. By "you" I'm referreing to Palm - not Colligan specifically (he wasn't even on board at the time of the bogus "split"). Even casual observers predicted that a split would be disastrous. From Day 1 I've maintained that the split was a sham designed to generate bogus millions at the expense of investors. The slick little $30 million "gift" to PalmSource for the Palm name followed almost immediately by the attempt to merge the companies is more than a little suspicious. Perhaps all very legal, but I guess we'll see if bilked investors agree.

>>2. What has happened to hardware QUALITY at Palm? When did "barely adequate" become acceptable? Since production was shipped to China, Palm's hardware has become an embarassment. Those of us who have been burned often stop buying or recommending Palm branded equipment.

We sell a lot of smartphones and PDAs. Our quality control is on par with the rest of the consumer electronics industry. If we were as bad as you think we are, we would not be profitable or sell as many devices as we do. Many times the complainers are the loudest and the satisfied and silent.

First of all, Palm is barely profitable and until recently has been losing bucketloads of money. The company's meagre profits are primarily due to the competitive advantage conferred by the gift of the Handspring Treo 600 along with the loss of competition from Sony's exit. Now that the rest of the industry has figured out the Treo 600 they will simply undercut Palm. And is Palm's QC really "on par with the rest of the consumer electronics industry"? The figures I've seen showed astronomical return rates for Treo 600. Please quote some actual figures to back your assertion up, Edkko. Also, has the defect rate increased for Palm over the past 5 years. I assume the company has stats on this. I'll bet Quality Control plummetted when production was shifted to China.

>>>3. Why has it taken so long to introduce a small, basic, phone-centric $200 PalmOS phone? Is THIS rocket science?

http://churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treo800g.jpg

Our market research shows that the market does not want a device that does not have a keyboard. Having a 480x320 devices AND a keyboard would simply make the device too big and our research also shows that consumers want SMALL smartphones. 480x320 only appeals to a small niche market anyway. We are working on a lower-priced Treo. Stay tuned.

Nonsense. "Normal" people like small, light phones. This comprises the bulk of the cellphone market. Palm needs to expand its user base. Treo 650-style phones will always be a limited market by virtue of the phone's size, weight + expense. Common sense dictates that the way to profitability is through saturating the mass market and becoming the industry standard. Palm had a golden opportunity to do so in 2003-4 and blew it. "Stay tuned"? We've been waiting for YEARS already. The market is cutthroat and will not wait for Palm to get their act together. If Palm can't figure out how to make a small, light, semi-smartphone, I'm sure Nokia, Motorola, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, etc. will be only too happy to fill that gap. Palm is giving up a market that they actually created without a fight. Pathetic.

>>>4. Next, Why didn't Palm aggresively push Good Technology's "push" email to businesses? You could have beaten Blackberry. Now, (almost in 2006) you're just a follower.

We believe that our partnerships with Blackberry (Connect) and Microsoft (Windows Mobile 5.0/MS Exchange) position us perfectly in the push email business.

Palm is now behind the times. Compare the number of deployments of GoodLink to the number of Blackberry installs. Does GoodLink (or Seven) have even 1% of the deployments (or # of users) as Blackberry? Palm's solution got massacred. Even Joe Public knows about what Blackberry does for email. Does ANYONE (including the average IT department guru) know that Palm can do the same? What's that? Can't hear you Edkko. And where is Blackberry Connect for Palm, by the way? It's bad enough that you've resorted to using a competitor's solution, but we still have yet to see this vaporware despite a year of promises. And is MS Exchange for PalmOS ready for prime time? There are rumblings that it has been quietly crippled.

>>>5. What the he11 are you thinking with those kiosks/Palm Stores? Is it THAT hard to get employees that actually have a clue or who care? Have the people working there ever actually OWNED a Palm? If you want to use these store to promote Palm/PalmOS, they should be a fun way to let people know what Palms are capable of. Set up a PDA that beams customers freeware. (BeamPRO EXPO costs about $60. I'm sure you could find a Tungsten T5 to install it on...) Make sure your stock is up to date + reasonably priced. Make sure all PDAs have demo models that are in good condition + fully charged. Enlist the help of the local Palm User Group when looking for employes...

The Palm Stores and Kiosks are not as big of an investment for us as you might think. We basically partner and piggyback off of existing retail companies like "Airport Wireless". They already have the stores and employees. They run the stores and we simply provide signage, product, and low-level marketing assistance. This is not an area that we want to focus our resources on, it was simply an inexpensive way for us to increase our brand exposure to a large amount of potential target customers.

Really? Is that true that Palm merely contracts out to have their stores set up + run? Even if that's the case, that service isn't free. How much money has been blown on stores that opened up only to be closed within a year? Or stores that are still around draining profits from Palm? Do these stores generate any profits at all? Or any goodwill? Palm veterans that have visited these stores are almost unanimous in pointing out that they are poorly designed/staffed/stocked. How is this supposed to help Palm grow the market? What most of us don't understand is that since it wouldn't take much money or effort to create a more effective storefront for Palm, if you're going to go through the bother of doing these kiosks/stores, why not do it right?

>>>6. Is innovation DEAD at Palm? Are you capable of producing something as innovative as the CLIE UX50, or are we to only expect reheated versions based on the Tungsten E and Treo 600 ad infinutum?

Our market research shows that demand for such niche products are small. Hence, the exit of Sony from the market.

Sony did not leave because "demand for such niche products are small". In fact, from the beginning they created PDAs that covered the ENTIRE spectrum of the market. Innovation is what drives companies and helps expand (or sustain) their market. Eventually, a company's core product will no longer be viable and unless it has something new/innovative to move on to, the company is fcuked. Look at how Apple has managed to stay in business. If they were run by Palm all they would be selling in 2005 would be polkadot iMacs, striped iMacs, neon iMacs and Special Edition Michael Jordan (or more likely Michael Jackson) iMacs - to an ever declining group of rabid Mac Cultists. Companies that fail to innovate go bankrupt. Period. Were it not for acquiring the INNOVATION of Handspring and its Treo 600, Palm may already be bankrupt. Has Palm had an innovative product since the Tungsten T3? Everything they put out is either an incremental upgrade or a gimmick. And sorry, but a PDA with an enclosed Microdrive (as opposed to one you can simply slide into the CompactFlash slot as needed!) is NOT an innovation. Neither is using OnDisk CrapRAMô. Nor is peeling paint on the Zire 72. I suppose one could make an argument that the low price of the TX is a innovation in some ways but that's not the kind of "innovation" a small company like Palm can rely on for sustaining their growth. Especially with 800 pound ultra-efficient gorillas like Dell as competition.


>>>7. Why is Palm's included software still so primitive? Why haven't freeware apps like TCPMP, HandyShopper and Diddlebug been licenced?

We prefer to let our customers decide which software they'd like to put on their device rather than be forced to buy software they might not use through higher Palm device prices.

Ummm... "Why haven't freeware apps like TCPMP, HandyShopper and Diddlebug been licenced? Palm could be improving the functionality of users' PDAs for next-to-nothing. But they can't be bothered. Instead, we get 10 year old PIM apps, 10 year old bleeping alarms designed for the original Pilot and a shoddy multimedia experience. Well done, Palm.

>>>8. Why is Palm's executive compensation so high? Is this appropriate?

It is less than or equal to the levels of our peers in the industry.

Have Palm's executives EARNED their bloated compensation, though? What's that? Can't hear you, Edkko.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Google "pedantical"
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/10/2005 8:09:46 AM # Q
This thread is on the first page of responses! Let's go to #1.

pedantical pedantical
pedantical pedantical
pedantical pedantical
pedantical pedantical
pedantical pedantical
pedantical pedantical
pedantical pedantical
pedantical pedantical
pedantical pedantical

;-O



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Gekko @ 11/10/2005 9:47:12 AM # Q

get back on your lithium.



RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/10/2005 4:38:05 PM # Q
You first.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
fierywater @ 11/10/2005 11:23:08 PM # Q
Hate to break it to the anti-pedantical kiddies, but pedantical is a word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pedantical
Citing Webster's, by the way.

P.S.: I swear that this will be the only time I ever agree with Dr. Opinion on any point. Ever.

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
cervezas @ 11/11/2005 12:22:29 AM # Q
I swear that this will be the only time I ever agree with Dr. Opinion on any point. Ever.

He's starting to grow on me. Every once in a while he comes out with a gem.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Pedantical THIS, Baby!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/11/2005 5:55:30 AM # Q
I'm gonna pedantical Doc Op up the pedantical. Dumba$$ motherpedantical.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Open (love) letter to Sony by The Vat of Refuse
Simony @ 11/11/2005 7:31:17 PM # Q
Dear Sony-sans,

I write to grovel before you yet again.

It seems like only yesterday that you were producing those hideously expensive multimedia CLIE bricks that gave meaning to my life. What a time that was - CLIEs and me together.

And I did everthing for you. I advertised every one of your CLIEs (no matter how useless they were) at palminfocenter.com. I praised your inept business decisions as masterful strategies. I lauded your mediocre gizmos as paragons of innovation. ... I gave you the best years of my life.

And what did you do to repay my faithful cheerleading? You BETRAYED me by stopping production of CLIEs forever.

How could you do this to me? How could you be so ungrateful for all the things I did for you?

(tear stain mark)

Just because you were losing millions of dollars on those ugly CLIE units is no excuse. Not after everything I did for you. You ingrates.

Your callous decision has broken my heart. (another tear stain mark) Without CLIEs, I can't go on. How do you expect me to endure my dead-end job? How can I face those long winter nights alone without CLIEs?

Please, I beg you, start producing CLIEs again. I don't care if they are even worse than your previous efforts (as if that's possible). I promise to forgive you. Really I do. But I can't forgive you unless you make the first move.

In the meantime, I will be alone and paley loitering at palminfocenter.com. I will sublimate my misery by slandering Palm at every opportunity, in retaliation for them destroying evrything that is so precious to me.

Yours obsessively,

The Vat of Refuse.
XXX

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/11/2005 11:25:24 PM # Q
Yawn.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Simony @ 11/12/2005 12:18:51 AM # Q
Your response is not up to its usual comical standards. Why don't you try your 'Palm is doomed' routine again?

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/12/2005 1:25:27 AM # Q
How about, "Simony is a pathetic moron" instead?

Oh wait. The truth isn't funny.

But please keep it up, Simony. Your contributions to the discussion here are sparkling as ever.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Simony @ 11/12/2005 1:52:12 AM # Q
Gee, you praise the guy for his comedic achievements and you get insults in return. There is no justice in the world.

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/12/2005 9:38:59 AM # Q
I would have thought you'd be used to receiving insults by now. Starting with the day you were born: "Ewwwww! What is it?"

Deal with it. Chin (and a$$) up, Simony.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Simony @ 11/12/2005 8:49:12 PM # Q
Superb humour, nearly as good as your usual 'palm is doomed' sketch.

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
Simony @ 11/12/2005 8:52:56 PM # Q
You know, you should have your agent look into producing bumper stickers and coffee mugs with lines like this. You would make a fortune. Not that you need it, of course - the Noble Prize for Comedy will keep you in booze for years.

RE: TVoR's open letter to Ed Colligan
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/18/2005 3:13:42 AM # Q
Don't be a hater, Bubba. Hate will eat you alive.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Reply to this comment

Could Palm rebrand it back to "Palm OS"?

cervezas @ 11/9/2005 2:09:25 PM # Q
I kind of doubt it... but it's interesting to consider whether Palm could buy the right from Access to brand the OS with the familiar "Palm" name.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Could Palm rebrand it back to
Mauibro @ 11/9/2005 3:32:43 PM # Q
Palm owns the "palm' name. Soon Access wont be able to use it.
Palm needs nothing from Access to continue using the name.

My take is that "PalmOS" will soon be limited to whatever Palm wants to define it as.
Whether that is Garnet, a Palm tweaked linux from Access, or their own independent PalmOS based on Linux.

I doubt they will eyen allow Access to call what the put out PalmOS, unless its is running on a genuine Palm device.



RE: Could Palm rebrand it back to
JarJar @ 11/9/2005 4:49:29 PM # Q
Along with the change to the organge Palm circle logo, it is both sad and revealing that the "branding" is such a big deal when the focus should be on the functions of the device.
RE: Could Palm rebrand it back to "Palm OS"
cervezas @ 11/9/2005 4:50:37 PM # Q
My point is that Palm owns the Palm brand but Access owns the brand that they create for the OS formerly known as Palm ("NetFront OS" or whatever). Palm can't call this OS "Palm OS" without Access's permission any more than Access can call it "Palm OS" without Palm's. But Palm might very much like to be able to put their brand on a Palm-modified version of NetFront OS to maintain continuity with their current products. Like I said, I doubt Access would let them rebrand, but they might for the right price. For one thing, they could reason that having a strong OS brand is not necessarily an advantage when trying to sell a device to a handset vendor who wants their own brand to be spotlighted.

Could they decide that future versions of the OS would be somewhat nameless and just have a label like "NetFront compatible" on them so vendors could slap their own brand on the software? "This phone runs the NetFront-compatible Cingular OS."

Have to say that would be a nightmarish outcome for an already bad branding situation for Palm OS, but I can almost imagine this coming to pass.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Could Palm rebrand it back to
Mauibro @ 11/10/2005 3:13:05 AM # Q
Seems to me that once Access has no right to call its OS PalmOS, since Palmsource sold the name rights to use the name "Palm" to Palm, Access will have no say whatsoever as to whether Palm calls the OS on its devices "PalmOS."

Think about it.
We all Know Soon Access cannot call its Os PalmOS right?
Why?
Palmsource sold exclusive use of the name "Palm" to Palm.
The fact that Access will not themselves be able to call its Os PalmOS, demonstrates it then will have NO right at all go control of that name.

What Access will own is "The OS formerly known as PalmOS."
True Palm must pay a royalty for that OS.
But it seems to me that Palm could call it, or anything it were to produce, on its Palm devices "PalmOS"

I've said it before on the 1src forums, the buyback of the name Palm is a far bigger deal than people realize.


RE: Could Palm rebrand it back to
jackpipe @ 11/12/2005 11:03:40 AM # Q
And Palm (the company) is busy destroying the meaning of palm (the brand) by producing windows mobile products.

So what does a palm-branded product mean to you ? It currently (or at least, used to) means the same kind of thing as Apple means .. a distinctive, easy to use and elegant user experience (well, more so than the competition, in any case.) Witness the excitement over the iTunes ROKR, despite that product being still-born - Apple and iTunes mean something.
What will the palm brand mean with a mix of windows, and palmos products ?

What would 'Apple' mean if they started shifting windows boxen?
Palm seem to believe they have the same kind of 'something' that Sony, Samsung, and the apple ipod have, and that they can somehow mix and match the software. I think they should put the coke away.

Adopting windows is palm's dumbest move ever - and their previous miss-steps (and simple, lack-of-steps) take some beating.

RE: Could Palm rebrand it back to
jackpipe @ 11/12/2005 11:18:57 AM # Q
This doesn't seem to be the first time for the palm intellectual capital black hole either.
They seem to have a knack of swallowing companies and brands, and then, at best, merely milking the capital, and at best, it disappears forever. eg,

Palm swallowed handspring.
Palm swallowed Be.
Palm swalled anyday.com
Palm swallowed WeSync
Palm swallowed Actual
I'm sure there are others.
Now palm is swallowing Palm.

I'm not a management guru - but I know a destroyer of value when I see it.

Microsoft sucks. Palm swallows.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/12/2005 3:56:24 PM # Q





------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Could Palm rebrand it back to
Simony @ 11/12/2005 8:41:29 PM # Q
Hey, The Vat of Refuse, why don't you give us your classic 'The dogs at Palm will roast their stomachs at the gates of Redmond' routine again? You have only done it here at PIC a few dozen times this year (but who's counting?) and classic comedy like yours only improves with repetition. Come on, little buddy, what do you say?

RE: Could Palm rebrand it back to
AdamaDBrown @ 11/14/2005 2:33:59 AM # Q
They seem to have a knack of swallowing companies and brands, and then, at best, merely milking the capital, and at best, it disappears forever.

Wow. Put that way, the Palm/Microsoft alliance makes perfect sense.

Reply to this comment

survival == growth

jackpipe @ 11/9/2005 2:07:32 PM # Q
Colligan is saying that palm will grow the market for palm developers - unfortunately he's being somewhat disengenuous by confusing 'palm' and the 'palm platform'. PalmOS developers are loyal to the palm platform. I doubt many of them give a rat's arse about the hardware on its own, and even less about which company is making the hardware, other than their market share. They care about the user interface, and the overall capabilities of the devices. Most of this is software.
So what is it that is supposed to be growing ? The company called palm ? The number of pdas running Windows ? This is a letter to shareholders, or windows developers. Not palmos developers.


RE: survival == growth
cnegrad @ 11/9/2005 4:14:19 PM # Q
Exactly! Thanks for making that distinction. Mr. Colligan, devices that use the Windows OS have NO "PALM EXPERIENCE" whatsoever. The "Palm Experience" IS the Palm OS.

-cnegrad
Reply to this comment

Palm's action show what type of support Palm has for the POS

benamy @ 11/9/2005 6:27:28 PM # Q
Palm hardware did nothing with the development of Garnet past the Treo 600. The Lifedrive was two years late. The T650 was nothing but a modification of a winner. And the T5 was a waste of time with the TX being two years late again.

PALM DOES NOT SUPPORT THE PALM OS!

All the wasted words mean nothing compared to the lack of action.

PALM has lost the handheld business and is just like Commodore Computers producing the IBM clone. And we all know how Commodore ended.

PALM HAS LOST. Our only hope as users is that Access builds some kick butt products in Japan that work on the new US networks emerging standards.

Benjamin S. Armen


RE: Palm's action show what type of support Palm has for the POS
benamy @ 11/9/2005 6:35:19 PM # Q
PALM HAD A TWO YEAR ADVANTAGE OVER SYMBIAN AND MSFT with COBALT. Cobalt could have worked if the will to produce it had been present!!!

We have seen the best of PALM


Reply to this comment

Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?

jackl @ 11/9/2005 6:22:44 PM # Q
The real question lurking behind the amorphous issue of "support for Palm OS" aside from Treo/phones seems to be is the OS or devices going anywhere in the overall realm of personal computing?

I'm sure I speak for many when it seems over the years, the Palm has gone from my main personal computing device to a useful peripheral which can serve as a critical reference calendar/memo/to do "wallet" for my most important data with a handy remote entry feature. But not the main "personal" box.

But, like many other people who could afford quality and hated MS, Windows and cheap beige Dell boxen, I made the switch to Mac OS X and have been smiling ever since. And, yeah, I do have an iPod and use ITunes as my basic reference library too.

And yeah, I'm a sucker for the stylish shiny devices and the marketing. I used to like that about Palm once too. (I have a reconditioned on warranty T3 and a used hot backup spare i bought on eBay...I owned every device from the Palm III to the T3, but gave up aghast after the T5, LifeDrive, NVFS, etc.).

So where does Palm fit into this? If you use a mac, you know...arrrgh. Desktop is a crippled joke and you need to buy Mark/Space Missing Sync for conduits and memos and BackupBuddy to copy backup files. Fortunately, the Missing Sync does a nice job of integrating with the native Spotlight-complaint mac calendar and address book (iLife) utilities, so that integration is pretty seamless with the 3rd party add ons. If Palm/Collagen were all so commited to the Palm platform, forget Winblows, what about better compatibilty for OS X for many of your own aficianados and early adapters? For instance Spotlight indexing and searching.

Or how about some mac utiltities like Address Grabber, which allows for intelligent parsing and transfer to an address book utility of the text name and address blocks on messages. There's a lot Palm could do to make its OS compatible with the widest range of interconnecting computers and devices and upgrade its desktop and transfer facilities to cover the widest possible segment of the personal computing market, in much the same way that it is reaching out to Windows users to increase market share.

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
sr4 @ 11/9/2005 6:48:42 PM # Q

I must say Mac users are a very vocal and demanding minority. You are only 3% of the web-using population, but expect Palm to expend 50% of their resources on your care and upkeep, which will never be paid back by actual sales.

Choose a minority platform, expect minority support.

Surur

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
ChiA @ 11/9/2005 7:14:10 PM # Q
Surur said a very vocal and demanding minority

The same can be said of the USA when compared to the total global population! As can be seen with the USA, a group doesn't necessarily lack influence merely because it's in a minority!

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
ChiA @ 11/9/2005 7:23:43 PM # Q
For the record:

US population approx 297 million people
World population approx 6,477 million people

That makes Americans about 4.6% of the global population.
Anyone who argued the USA has little or no influence because it's only 4.6% of the Earth's population would be a fool.

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
sr4 @ 11/9/2005 7:23:56 PM # Q
Correction: Vocal, demanding and influential minority.

I cant say how irritated I am time after time seeing the Mac's chrome (window title bar and frame etc) in print adverts supposedly illustrating a computer screen, when this depiction would be completely unfamiliar to 90%+ of people who actually use a computer, just because most of the graphic artists who actually compose the adverts etc use Apple computers.

Surur

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
ChiA @ 11/9/2005 7:35:20 PM # Q
Funnily enough I've recently seen for the first time the reverse in an advert, a Windows screen on a Apple computer.

Moving back towards topic, I guess this is another area where Palm is not like Apple; Palm appears to be following other PDA and Smartphone manufacturers as opposed to influencing or inspiring them. Personally, I think the last inspiring PDA Palm created was the T3, whilst the last one to be innovative would have been the original Tungsten. I'm not sure what slot to put the Treo 600 into but everything else Palm's produced in the last five years has been evolutionary - at best.

When I look at the Palm range now the only thing I see inflential or inspiring is the Treo's form factor - if only they can get rid of that external aerial!

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
sr4 @ 11/9/2005 8:08:48 PM # Q
Well, the RIM 950 certainly preceded the Treo 90 by many years, and the RIM devices were always famed for their keyboard and easy navigation, so its difficult to say who influenced who, but certainly, like the Ipod displaced all the other HDD based mp3 players, the Treo is now the icon of the keyboarded phone, only rivaled by RIM (still? again?) That kind of mindshare is incredibly valuable. Now every phone with a keyboard is automatically attempting to be a "Treo killer". Its certainly bad for your advertising if your competitor is always mentioned in the same breath as your product.

Surur

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
hkklife @ 11/9/2005 9:37:27 PM # Q
Influential? yes, but do know that the Treo design is ENTIRELY the fruit of the dying efforts of Hangspring (truly a dead company walking if there ever was one once they announced they were killing off the Springboard).


Inspiring? PLEASE! This sort of square, clunky and oh-so-unsexy candybar formfactor should have gone out four years ago with Nokia TDMA phones or something.

It's time for Palm to wake up and meld the phenomenal industrial design of the Visor Edge or Palm V with the specs of a TX and make a killer PDA (Garnet or not). Then dial the specs back a few notches and make a similarly styled Treo flip phone.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5

RE: Mac OS Support??
benway88 @ 11/9/2005 11:28:56 PM # Q
Um, you'd be lulling yourself to sleep if you think the mac audience is less than 10%.

Apple computers have 4% marketshare for all computers sold, including PC cash registers, dumb terminals for call centers, rental car agent boxes, etc.

If you look at people who pay for software for their box, called "End Users", Apple users make up almost 14% here. This would be the consumer market.

Palm is going for the enterprise-centric approach with WinMob, and talk to Dell just how competitive that space is.

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
benway88 @ 11/9/2005 11:41:30 PM # Q
Heh, right this second on the ZDNet UK website is this poll:

What would you rather run on your x86 PCs?

Windows Vista
10.4%
Windows XP
3.9%
Mac OS X on x86
67.8%
Linux
15.6%
Other
2.3%

ZDNet is a website that few mac users would be caught dead at, so the results are entertaining.

Oh, and that Dell 2405 monitor is the greatest monitor out there.

RE: Palm OS support? Yawn. What's the big picture for PDAs?
sr4 @ 11/10/2005 2:57:05 AM # Q

Actually I got my 3% number from google zeitgeist (2004)and thecounter (currently) These days, if you are not on the web, are you really using a computer? Why do people always doubt my numbers ? ;)

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2005/October/os.php

The ZDNet numbers illustrate a) the power of Apple marketing and b) if people really are so eager to switch (and even I am tempted by a mac mini) the power of the network effect keeping them stuck on windows.

Surur

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OT: Access aquisition nearing

cervezas @ 11/9/2005 8:05:38 PM # Q
Looks like PalmSource's acquisition by Access is getting close to being a reality. PSRC shares have climbed about 20 cents in the last couple of days to within a dime of the promised acquisition price:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PSRC&t=5d



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: OT: Access aquisition nearing
SeldomVisitor @ 11/10/2005 9:53:08 AM # Q
For those into stock trading, note that the "upside risk", the bane of those taking short positions, is that same one thin dime.

Extremely limited upside risk, $10-ish (or more!) per share downside potential.

Short!

(nah - I've never held a position in PSRC nor intend to now - just pointing out what some traders might indeed be thinking - e.g, short 1000 shares of PSRC, lose a big $100 if the buyout happens, make $10,000+ if it doesn't...some might find that risk/reward well worth the gamble)

RE: OT: Access aquisition nearing
cervezas @ 11/10/2005 10:17:09 AM # Q
Extremely limited upside risk, $10-ish (or more!) per share downside potential.

In the short run, maybe, but then Motorola and Palm swoop in for another title bout.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

Ed doesn't want to get buried

Gekko @ 11/10/2005 3:41:51 PM # Q

"I can buy 20 percent of you or I can buy all of you, or I can go into this business myself and bury you." Ė Bill Gates to Steve Case, May 1993



RE: Ed doesn't want to get buried
AdamaDBrown @ 11/11/2005 4:23:14 AM # Q
Yeah and we all saw how well that turned out. AOL imploded, but MSN still turned into another crap service that they stick on new PCs.

The Microsoft "juggernaut" is greatly exaggerated. Half their victories are due to the enemy tripping over their own feet.

RE: Ed doesn't want to get buried
Gekko @ 11/11/2005 7:37:49 AM # Q

Microsoft May Buy Stake in AOL Mon Nov 7, 7:56 AM ET

Microsoft Corp. has emerged as the front-runner in talks surrounding the potential sale of a stake in America Online.

Several issues could delay any potential transaction. The New York Times reports one issue is whether such an alliance would be another risky partnership for Time Warner Inc. The company is also looking at whether a new partner at AOL could help Time Warner navigate the digital world.

Microsoft approached AOL several months ago to discuss joint ventures, but any agreement is still likely weeks away.

Last week Time Warner's chairman and chief executive, Richard Parsons, acknowledged the talks. But he says the discussions are very fluid, and they don't know whether a deal will even be reached.



RE: Ed doesn't want to get buried
AdamaDBrown @ 11/11/2005 4:39:45 PM # Q
Damn, somebody sure knows how to fail upwards. This IS the same AOL that was very recently a dead albatross around the neck of Time Warner, right? One would think that MS has enough problems without volunteering for more.

RE: Ed doesn't want to get buried
Gekko @ 11/12/2005 12:48:39 PM # Q

AOL is hot again. AOL is one of Google's main partners. About 12% of Google's 2004 revenue came from ads it placed on AOL's sites.

It's Google vs. MSFT vs. Yahoo.


RE: Ed doesn't want to get buried
e_tellurian @ 11/12/2005 4:03:16 PM # Q
How will customers choose to interact in their digital world
in their future?

Example the "JumboTron" is one of many ways some see direct
interaction ... a large PC. The issue is distribution of product and the energy that this distribution channel will require. Imagine 5,000 people interacting with a "JumboTron" requesting, via secure and efficient choices, services and products to be delivered to homes and offices?

Solution:

Bicycles with e-motion is a thought to add to a solution. More energy choices to help sustain existing energy choices.

E-T

e-tellurian

completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution

Reply to this comment

PALM backhandedly declares its nonsupport fro Linux

SeldomVisitor @ 11/14/2005 1:10:29 PM # Q
A cast of thousands founding it including PalmSource, but not PALM:

-- http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051114/sfm058.html?.v=28

[yes, I'd think PALM would have been part of it had they been interested]

RE: PALM backhandedly declares its nonsupport fro Linux
cervezas @ 11/14/2005 2:18:31 PM # Q
Palm isn't in the business of building software platforms. There aren't any other hardware vendors on the list either, so I don't really think Palm's absence signifies anything at all. (Motorola might be in the process of joining, by the way, but that's because they do both hardware and software platforms.)

As for the FUD that continues to be spread around concerning Palm's lack of support for Palm OS for Linux, you have to be willfully, blatantly ignoring almost all of the facts at hand to believe it. Palm has explicitly, publicly stated their intention to move to Linux, has hired Linux engineers to make the transition, and has renewed their license for a term that only makes sense if they're on board with PalmSource's roadmap. Deal with it, people.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PALM backhandedly declares its nonsupport fro Linux
SeldomVisitor @ 11/14/2005 2:40:06 PM # Q
> ...Palm has explicitly, publicly stated their intention
> to move to Linux...

!!!

Wow - care to point out some official words from PALM that state that!?

Wow.


Ken Wirt: Palm will move from Garnet to PalmLinux
cervezas @ 11/14/2005 2:59:56 PM # Q
Sure.

ITWeek, Oct 6, 2005:
Ken Wirt, senior vice-president of marketing, said his firm was waiting for PalmSource to port the Palm environment to Linux before moving away from Palm OS 5. He said that there were no plans to produce Windows Mobile PDAs. "It will take us about a year to build a product on Palm OS for Linux after they come out with it," Wirt added.

PalmSource was recently acquired by Japanese software firm Access, but still expects to deliver Palm OS for Linux in the first half of 2006. Wirt said, "We're very optimistic about Linux - it will give us much broader access to chipsets, different processors and radios, because every vendor that puts out a chipset writes Linux drivers for it."

link: http://www.itweek.co.uk/itweek/analysis/2143406/sight-palm



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PALM backhandedly declares its nonsupport fro Linux
Gekko @ 11/14/2005 9:30:28 PM # Q

Thanks for the article, Doughboy.

1. However, it seems unlikely that any further Palm OS Treos will be developed. Current models run an ageing version of the Palm platform, and to extend this to match the 3G network support in Windows Mobile 5.0 may prove costly.
If firms will not buy Palm OS handsets, Palm may simply decide to cut its losses and ship only Microsoft-based models once the Treo 600 and Treo 650 reach end-of-life.

This ain't good.

2. Might the same thing happen to Palm's handheld range? Ken Wirt, senior vice-president of marketing, said his firm was waiting for PalmSource to port the Palm environment to Linux before moving away from Palm OS 5. He said that there were no plans to produce Windows Mobile PDAs. "It will take us about a year to build a product on Palm OS for Linux after they come out with it," Wirt added.

A year is a lifetime in technology, Doughboy, and the clock hasn't even started ticking yet.



RE: PALM backhandedly declares its nonsupport fro Linux
cervezas @ 11/14/2005 11:16:32 PM # Q
Guess you didn't hear that Palm will be selling EVDO and UTMS Palm OS Treos through Verizon, Sprint and Cingular next year, eh Gekko?

http://tinyurl.com/dlssv


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PALM backhandedly declares its nonsupport fro Linux
Gekko @ 11/14/2005 11:45:56 PM # Q

beersie - do yourself a favor and focus the meager resources of your shoebox operation on windows mobile. it's the future.


Palm OS still our best market
cervezas @ 11/15/2005 12:01:58 AM # Q
I so appreciate your concern, Gekko. But my little company does phenomenally well developing software that runs on all the major platforms--yet our best customers still run Palm OS.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: PALM biotchslaps itself again.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/18/2005 3:15:47 AM # Q
Enough with the B.S. bluster, Beersy. Why don't you post what the annual gross sales are for your desperate litte company?

Can't hear you, Beersy.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm is still our best market
cervezas @ 11/18/2005 8:32:27 AM # Q
Enough with the B.S. bluster, Beersy. Why don't you post what the annual gross sales are for your desperate litte company?

This has been my best year ever but I know that my shoebox business has had more than its share of luck. Let's just say that gross income is currently more than 4 times what I was making as a web programmer five years ago (the height of the tech boom). There are high travel expenses that come out of that right now (I'm basically having to run a second office out of Chicago now) but at the moment I'm grateful to say that life is very good. It's a lot of fun owning your own small company.

Needless to say, I'm an optimist when it comes to growth in enterprise mobile technology adoption and, yes, Palm OS in particular.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Good for you, Beersy. But Be(OS) careful...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 11/20/2005 10:48:56 PM # Q
This has been my best year ever but I know that my shoebox business has had more than its share of luck. Let's just say that gross income is currently more than 4 times what I was making as a web programmer five years ago (the height of the tech boom).

4($60,000) = $240,000

"More than" = probably $1 "more than" = $240,001


There are high travel expenses that come out of that right now (I'm basically having to run a second office out of Chicago now) but at the moment I'm grateful to say that life is very good. It's a lot of fun owning your own small company.

$240,001 - $40,000 = $200,001

Needless to say, I'm an optimist when it comes to growth in enterprise mobile technology adoption and, yes, Palm OS in particular.

Cost of a wardrobe full of lumberjack shirts (in "Husky" size, please!): Priceless.


Too bad the bottom could fall out of your market at any second, leaving you with your pants around your ankles (Mike Cane-style). I hope you've diversified and are prepared to support MULTIPLE platforms: (PalmOS, Windows Mobile, Symbian, Java, Linux, Coleco...)

Please stop embarassing yourself with the girlish Palm cheerleading, Beersy. It destroys what little credibility you have.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communismô

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: PALM backhandedly declares its nonsupport fro Linux
cervezas @ 11/20/2005 11:19:13 PM # Q
Please stop embarassing [sic] yourself with the girlish Palm cheerleading, Beersy.

Nah. A little factual cheerleading is what the Palm platform needs these days. Especially on PIC, the Internet's most depressing fan site.

If Colligan had done a bit of cheerleading about his company's continued enthusiasm for Palm OS instead of acting all peeved that people were confused ("I thought I'd made it clear") it wouldn't have come as a surprise to a regular on PIC that there had been public statements from Palm regarding their Palm Linux plans more than a month ago.

There has been almost no attempt on Palm's part to do damage control from the Windows Treo announcement--or even signs that they understands there is damage to the Palm brand, to Palm OS user loyalty, and to the developer community. It's so stupid because their commitment is clearly there; they just don't take the time to talk about it as they should.

My company is fully diversified--it's a business decision I made two and a half years ago as an insurance policy as much as anything. We haven't really had to file a major claim on that policy, and I'm glad for that because at a more personal level my loyalties are with Palm OS. So it pains me to see the platform being hurt because of public ignorance, the failure to address that ignorance by those who could do so, and the smell of brain-dead cynicism that too often hangs over this forum and reinforces that ignorance.

You can put all the denigrating words to it that you want--"cheerleader," "Apologist," "Palmyanna"--to try to stop rational discussion. But the reason you mock often points to a pretty hopeful future for the Palm platform (at least the one that exists outside your paranoid delusions). When it does I don't at all mind being the one to say so.

So keep up the paranoia and the 7th grade name-calling, dude. Just know you're not fooling anyone with it.

Well, maybe Gekko.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

An open invitation to Ed Colligan & Palm.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/17/2006 1:23:11 PM # Q
Dear Mr. Colligan,
The past year has seen unprecedented turmoil within the Palm Economy and many of the platform's staunchest supporters are giving up and moving to Windows Mobile.

I invite you to state whether or not Palm has any interest in continuing to produce and support PalmOS devices.

Sincerely,
TVoR

RE: An open invitation to Ed Colligan & Palm.
Admin @ 4/17/2006 1:39:16 PM # Q
The Voice of Treason -

I think you should read this article again and post your comments in a article that is relevant to what you are posting about.

RE: An open invitation to Ed Colligan & Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/17/2006 1:46:24 PM # Q
The Voice of Treason -

I think you should read this article again and post your comments in a article that is relevant to what you are posting about.


Ryan, is that really you insulting my User Name or have you allowed someone like gfunkmagic, Simony, David Beers or Jeff Kirvin to start moderating the comments at Palminfocenter?


(Disappointed) TVoR

RE: An open invitation to tvor
Admin @ 4/17/2006 7:22:41 PM # Q
I was just having a laugh with you, try not to act so paranoid... we could have had this convo in private however for some reason I don't understand, you are unwilling to email me.
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