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Comments on: Investment Report Bullish on Palm's Prospects

Sagio Asset Management has announced that it has increased its ownership of Palm, Inc. this week from 5% to 6.3%. This comes after shares of PALM took a 5% drop in share price following investor concern over competition with the Motorola Q. Saigo has also released a very positive report on Palm's future prospects claiming that Palm is still undervalued and misunderstood by most market analysts. The report also speculates on Palm's upcoming smartphone releases this year.
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New PDA's? Anyone? Anyone?

YojimboE @ 5/24/2006 4:01:18 PM # Q
A profound lack of discussion or even an iota of interest in stand-alone PDA models or OS developments. Let the weeping, moaning and prophesying commence.



Professional Amateur

RE: New PDA's? Anyone? Anyone?
dagwud @ 5/24/2006 4:43:18 PM # Q
Prophesying? You mean like, "2006 will be yet another year that I don't upgrade."

Is that actually prophesy or is it frustrated resignation?

--
PalmPilot Pro (1997) -> III (1998) -> Vx (1999) -> m500 (2001) -> m515 (2002) -> ???

Reply to this comment

Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!

SeldomVisitor @ 5/24/2006 6:19:00 PM # Q
I mean, for the second time when PALM is crashing and burning a hedge fund (of all things) that owns $114 million worth of the stock comes out and says "PALM is GREAT!"

I'm absolutely floored!

Who would have EXPECTED such a stance!?

RE: Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!
Simony @ 5/25/2006 5:33:04 PM # Q
They are funds managers; not a hedge fund. (There is a big difference between the two.)

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.
RE: Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!
SeldomVisitor @ 5/25/2006 7:26:38 PM # Q
> They are funds managers; not a hedge fund...

Please go here:

-- http://www.sagioinvest.com/

and look at the very top of your window - you will see (TITLE for you HTML weenies):

== "SAGIO Investments - alternative investment advisor,
== hedge fund,Geneva,Switzerland"

But thanks for trying to play.

Giggle.

[of course, Sagio is one of those dynamic orgs that change on the fly if necessary so this post is valid only at the time of the post!]

RE: Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!
SeldomVisitor @ 5/25/2006 7:31:43 PM # Q
In fact, under the "meta" description on its home page it outright says:

== "meta name="description" content="Sagio, headquartered in
== Geneva, is an investment adviser, that manages more than $100M
== in several hedge funds (Sniper, Longview), providing annualized
== returns in excess of 25% for its clients"..."

BTW - Sagio has more than $110 million of PALM alone (6.3 million shares times $17+/share) - if they manage "more than $100M" this suggests that they may just be somewhat overweighted in PALM, no?, for a "fund"...

RE: Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!
Gekko @ 5/26/2006 7:26:42 AM # Q

of course they have a vested self interest to "pump and dump" the stock.

commoditization will be the killer.

RE: Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!
Simony @ 5/26/2006 8:36:00 PM # Q
Since it says they are a hedge fund on their website, then it must be true - right? So, if they said that Black-Scholes is a type of bagel, you would believe that too? (rolls eyes)

Saigo is not a hedge fund.

Just trust me on this. (I think I may have a little more experience with hedge funds than you.)

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.

RE: Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!
SeldomVisitor @ 5/26/2006 9:03:55 PM # Q
Oh.

Okay.

RE: Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!
Gekko @ 5/27/2006 12:20:06 PM # Q

Simony - they have hedge funds in your socialist country?

RE: Bullish? Now THAT'S a surprise!
Simony @ 5/28/2006 9:49:50 PM # Q
Well, with Teddy Kennedy as our senior senator, I can understand your confusion. And, yes, there are some hedge funds here (there are some in the Cayman Islands and a handfull in Bermuda too).

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.
Reply to this comment

Lowrider

freakout @ 5/24/2006 7:03:37 PM # Q
Mass-market, $200?

That's pretty damn cool. If Palm include even *some* of the media features that people around here have been begging for - standard 3.5mm headphone jack, built-in movie player and sync software etc - and if they get the look of it right, it could be quite a hot little item.

Very interesting indeed.

On a different topic, it's very disappointing that there's no hint at all of a PalmOS Hollywood. After all, the highly positive buzz for the 700p should prove that people really do love a non-MS solution. (No offense, Surur ;) )

Why aren't Palm even hinting at one? Ed Colligan said that the 700p was proof of their future commitment to PalmOS. And while the 700p is a nice upgrade to the 650, it's not the Treo's future. Hollywood-style designs are.

Hopefully they'll work out the 3G/UMTS Garnet issues soon, if that's what's holding them back.

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good

RE: Lowrider
gfunkmagic @ 5/24/2006 7:35:26 PM # Q
>>>>>Hopefully they'll work out the 3G/UMTS Garnet issues soon, if that's what's holding them back.


That is basically what the rumors are (see below). A lot of publications like PCworld etc have mentioned that in passing as well... At this point I'm not very confident we will see a FrankenGarnet verision of the Hollywood this year or if ever...

--------------------
Gaurav

Current devices: Treo 650 + Axim X50v
Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600

Moderator, Treocentral

RE: Lowrider
cervezas @ 5/24/2006 10:37:57 PM # Q
freakout wrote:
Hopefully they'll work out the 3G/UMTS Garnet issues soon

It's not really a matter of "working out issues," from my understanding. It's a matter that the UMTS standard requires something that Garnet is specifically architected *not* to deliver: run two applications simultaneously in two separate event loops--a phone application using the voice network and an application that is processing network data (like an email client or browser). Garnet only has one event loop, and while it has some limited ability to do stuff in the background (like play audio from a file) it has to bring one application down before it can launch another. This fundamental limitation of Garnet is the reason they're working on a Linux successor to Palm OS.

The first non-Windows Treo to run on a UMTS network will have Linux under the hood, not Palm OS Garnet.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Lowrider
T_W @ 5/25/2006 11:37:03 AM # Q
It's a matter that the UMTS standard requires something that Garnet is specifically architected *not* to deliver: run two applications simultaneously in two separate event loops--a phone application using the voice network and an application that is processing network data (like an email client or browser). Garnet only has one event loop

So how do I manage to run other apps while on a phone call using my CDMA Treo 650?

What's inherently different about UMTS?

Also, I though the voice traffic coexisting with data traffic thing was resolved in the 700p (and with EVDO).

RE: Lowrider
AdamaDBrown @ 5/25/2006 1:08:25 PM # Q
CDMA doesn't do simultaneous voice and data. The data connection is automatically suspended while the voice call is active. That's just a function of the standard. UMTS requires that you be able to run both voice and data connections concurrently.

Rumor: Hollywood to launch at the end of the year
Marshall Flinkman @ 5/25/2006 1:28:23 PM # Q
Take it with salt to taste--I'm just passing it along. I hope it means that a Palm OS (i.e. Palm over Linux, rather than Garnet) version is coming early 2007.

http://www.palminsider.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=324

RE: Lowrider
T_W @ 5/25/2006 1:38:57 PM # Q
CDMA doesn't do simultaneous voice and data. The data connection is automatically suspended while the voice call is active. That's just a function of the standard. UMTS requires that you be able to run both voice and data connections concurrently.

Yes. I was aware of that (for 1xRTT). What about EVDO? I thought EVDO (and the 700p) supported both active data and voice.

Also, the original post was about event loops (implying that UMTS could not be supported on Garnet because Garnet didn't have preepmtive multitasking and thus could not support two apps at the same time).

Yet I can still switch to HandyShopper while on a phone call and I can still run MobileDB while Toccer is sitting in the background (so to speak) reading bytes from TCP sockets connected to toc.oscar.aol.com.

Clearly Garnet can cobble together sufficient multitasking for some things. What's so different about UMTS?

RE: Lowrider
rsc1000 @ 5/25/2006 2:01:48 PM # Q
A Palm OS Treo can be made to do UMTS. I would be surprised if Palm OS 'does voice' in the current Treo: if it's not already an independent subsystem (easy enough to do....) then is should be / could be.

In other words - no splitting of the atom here folks - the OS deals with the data channel and a seperate system / chip acts as the 'phone' (does the voice and re-routes the voice audio to the speaker and from the mic).

What is wrong with my picture here? where is the rocket science? This voice subsystem is something that is a commodity already - the same minimal voice capability in cheap-o phnones(remember that that is not including the radio itself - thats there already and is separate from voice encode / decode and audio routing that we are talking about).

RE: Lowrider
AdamaDBrown @ 5/25/2006 2:36:14 PM # Q
Yes. I was aware of that (for 1xRTT). What about EVDO? I thought EVDO (and the 700p) supported both active data and voice.

I'm working from memory here, so I may not be precisely correct, but as I recall it the EVDO standard doesn't allow for truly simultaneous voice and data connections, but it does improve the handling of connections. You can send or receive a phone call while not actively transmitting or receiving data, even if a data session is in progress. But it still has to suspend data transmissions to do so. UMTS doesn't have this restriction.

I don't know enough about the logistics to conclusively comment regarding UMTS/HSDPA on Palm OS.

Rumor: Hollywood to launch in 2012
AdamaDBrown @ 5/25/2006 2:44:43 PM # Q
That Hollywood "rumor" was pulled straight from this "investment report." And as a reminder, PalmInsider also ran with that story about the firmware upgrade for the Treo 650 that was supposed to include WiFi drivers, Drive Mode, their file explorer, more memory, and possibly unicorns.

RE: Lowrider
Ryan @ 5/25/2006 3:37:32 PM # Q
The hollywood rumor has been around since late 2005, nothing new there. There may be something to that unicorn update though.
RE: Lowrider
cervezas @ 5/26/2006 8:22:00 AM # Q
rsc1000 wrote:
A Palm OS Treo can be made to do UMTS. I would be surprised if Palm OS 'does voice' in the current Treo: if it's not already an independent subsystem (easy enough to do....) then is should be / could be.

The problem isn't solved by putting telephony into a subsystem (where I'm guessing it's probably been from the start). The problem is how that subsystem can be controlled from the user interface (screen and hardware) in a UMTS-compliant, multi-tasking manner. The Palm OS kernel has been able to multi-task since the first Pilot; it's the application shell that's single-tasking.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it seems likely to me that Palm sees the heroic effort to accomplish limited, hacked-in multi-tasking just to achieve UMTS compliance would be better put to developing a new Palm OS framework on a modern system architecture.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Lowrider
cervezas @ 5/26/2006 8:47:02 AM # Q
I say "it seems likely" that Palm is instead working on a new system. I should add that I have it on good information that Palm is not satisfied with Palm OS Garnet and that they are in fact working on a new Linux-based Palm OS. But even without inside information it just stands to reason, I think.

I don't know whether that homegrown system is considered "Plan A" or "Plan B" (with "A" being ALP)--perhaps Palm doesn't even know yet--but I have my suspicions.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/27/2006 5:07:00 AM # Q
So it's WinMob for the forseeable future then. How depressing.

Unless they decide to release a plain-old GSM Hollywood running Garnet. Unlikely I guess, but a man can dream.

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good

RE: Lowrider
PenguinPowered @ 5/27/2006 12:28:10 PM # Q
Having been called several times in recent weeks by recruiters trying to hire Linux people for Palm, I must now reluctantly admit that I too believe that Palm is trying to do their own Linux distro, which may well not involve PalmSource/Access

May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Lowrider
AdamaDBrown @ 5/27/2006 12:58:19 PM # Q
They'd have to be stupid not too. Controlling the OS is the only way to insure that it does what they want it to.

RE: Lowrider
AdamaDBrown @ 5/27/2006 12:58:19 PM # Q
They'd have to be stupid not too. Controlling the OS is the only way to insure that it does what they want it to.

And I thought Marty Fouts (PenguinPowered) was just PLAYING dumb.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/27/2006 2:20:10 PM # Q
Having been called several times in recent weeks by recruiters trying to hire Linux people for Palm, I must now reluctantly admit that I too believe that Palm is trying to do their own Linux distro, which may well not involve PalmSource/Access


I had assumed Marty was just playing dumb, but I guess he really was just clueless all along.

It's truly amazing that ANYONE is surprised to hear that Palm is desperately scrambling to create their own OS. As I have said before, Palm played a high stakes poker match with its main asset - PalmOS - and their corporate games blew up in their face. Without control of its own smartphone OS, Palm is a sitting duck, waiting to be blown out of the water as soon as Nokia, Motorola, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, etc. figure out the secret sauce needed to create a good smartphone. The Treo 600 was the first good smartphone and it came out way back in Fall 2003, finally giving Palm/Handspring a foot in the door with its new masters: The Carriers. With Palm having failed to advance the Treo 600 design in the past 3 years, it is inevitable that in 2006 the competition will finally begin to demolish Palm by slamming The Carriers' door shut on Palm's face for good. Motorola's aggressive pricing for its new smartphone is the first serious shot across Palm's bow. What will happen when Palm has to slash its (ridiculuosly greedy) prices in order to compete? Motorola can afford a 6 month smartphone price war to maximize marketshare/mindshare. A price war would quickly baknrupt Palm. Meanwhile, Nokia's U-boats are busy attaching a couple of megaton bombs to HMS Palm's hull. D Day is coming in 3 months. Any guesses who's going to win THIS war? Eric "RatBoy" Benhamou knows, and he's not telling. Dead men tell no tales...

PalmOS 5 is a lame duck OS that (to mix avian metaphors) has become an albatross around Palm's neck. There is no future in trying to further hack an already hacked-up OS. PalmOS 5 has become a deck of cards that was built on an unsteady foundation. The fact that it hasn't already completely collapsed is a testament to the efforts of Handspring's codemonkeys circa 2001 - 2003.

Palm made a ton of money from unfortunate naive investors by engaging in a sleazy corporate shell game of bogus splits, spin-offs and name "sales" and ALMOST pulled it off by re-acquiring PalmOS for peanuts. Benhamou would have fit in well with the good ole boys at Enron... (Un?)Fortunately, their scam came to a screeching halt when Access bought PalmSource and quickly killed off PalmOS. Ooops!

Sorry, Virginia, but their are not going to be any further advances to PalmOS seen from Access/PalmSource. The platform died the day Palm allowed themselves to be outbid by a truly shocking dark horse named Access. Of course, the fact that Palm's "leadership" thought companies like Motorola, Nokia, etc would have stood idly by and let Palm re-acquire PalmSource for nothing shows how stupid/arrogant/incompetent Palm's decision makers are.

Previously Palm had no contingency plan re: its OSes, as the brilliant strategy of offering Windows Mobile as a no brainer quick fix and re-acquiring PalmOS for total control of its own smartphone OS would have allowed Palm to have their cake and eat it too. Palm entered full "disaster mode" last fall, and has been desperately trying to come up with its own proprietary OS. Unfortunately, years of neglect mean Palm has no in-house codemonkey talent in the troop capable of answering the bell. Boo hoo hoo! Way to go Palm... Loading up on talent like HandEra/Tapwave/StyleTap codemonkeys, CESD, TealPoint, Chris Antos, Picard, etc while pruning the dozens of "dead wood" branches currently at Palm would have solved all of Palm's app and UI headaches. If Palm decided to give up its plan to own its own smartphone OS, not much more hiring would have been necessary. Since time is of the essence, a roll-your-own PalmLinux might be a bit much to aim for given Palm's shameful lack of skilled codemonkeys.

At this point, Palm's best - and most realistic - option is to throw all of its remaining resources behind Windows Mobile, making a number of further customizations to the UI, giving users a more "Palm-like" (i.e. intuitive) experience out of the box, and at the same time offering a bug-free clone of StyleTap Platform either as part of Palm's Windows Mobile distro or as a free download available to users. I suggested this last Fall to someone who matters at Palm and they laughed, saying this was an absurd proposition. Well guess what? They aren't laughing now...


TVoR


RE: Lowrider
PenguinPowered @ 5/27/2006 4:27:59 PM # Q
Ah, my old buddy the Voice of Conspiracy.

Anyway, Skippy, I'm not surprised that Palm is doing their own distro, I'm just reluctant to admit it.

Especially since most of the people working on Linux for PalmSource US have bailed and, as far as I know, none of them have gone to Palm.

Guess the A in Alp stands for Asia, after all.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/27/2006 6:39:01 PM # Q
TVoR! And just when people felt they could start to be a little optimistic again... :P

While future competition is indeed going to be tough for Palm, I'm hesitant to write them off just yet. PalmOS 5 may be a developer's nightmare, but hopefully the user experience will be greatly improved by the extra memory that's been added to the 700p. If they can put an end to seemingly-random resets, then Garnet will remain a viable platform.

There's always a future in a non-Microsoft solution. (Yeah yeah, I know... tell that to Netscape.) Look at the buzz and online reviews for the 700w vs. the 700p. People are excited about the 700p, much moreso than they were about the 700w when it was announced - despite the fact it's still running buggy ol' Garnet.

Finally, the supposed leaked Hollywood pics (http://tinyurl.com/jzzhe) show that Palm has not turned a complete blind eye to style.

I wouldn't write them off yet. Maybe this time next year, if phones like the Q and E61 kill them. We'll see...

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good

RE: Lowrider
PenguinPowered @ 5/27/2006 11:34:07 PM # Q
I wouldn't write them off yet. Maybe this time next year, if phones like the Q and E61 kill them. We'll see...

How about this time next month?


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/28/2006 4:59:56 AM # Q
Only that long for Treo sales to completely dry up?
Well, I suppose if these other phones were *really* good, it could happen. But it sounds unlikely at face value.


(sorry if I missed a joke there...)

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good

RE: Lowrider
Surur @ 5/28/2006 5:53:47 AM # Q

I think he means with the release of devices such as the Q the Treo is set to lose major mind share, especially with the amount of promotion we can expect Motorola to do (10x as much as Palm). Palm will have to compete on style and price, and they are not good at doing either.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/28/2006 9:36:24 AM # Q
^^ I'll see you guys here this time next month then. ;)

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good
Palm is stumbling + PalmSource ready to close up shop in the USA
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/28/2006 11:37:48 AM # Q
As I predicted, Access has gutted the American operations and everything is being farmed out to cheap (inexpensive) Chinese codemonkeys. I hear the price of codemonkey feed and cages in China costs 1/10th the price it does in the USA and no need to worry about pesky things like providing healthcare, retirement benefits, etc...

The smarter codemonkeys saw this coming last year and deserted the sinking ship in late 2005. Less intelligent codemonkeys didn't leave until Spring. (Remind me: when was it that Marty Fouts left?) With Access having now pulled the plug on PalmOS they are no longer even attempting to maintain the façade that the PalmOS platform is still business as usual.

Palm is wasting its time persuing its inhouse PalmLinux dreams. Colligan & Co. need to start making some more pragmatic decisions ASAP:

1) PalmOS 5 could be hacked to remain in service for CDMA smaretphones for another 2 years if Palm put a little effort into fixing some of the nastier code Garnet currently contains. Unfortunately, CDMA is primarily a USA standard - most other countries prefer GSM, so if Palm intends to sell to a bigger market they need GSM devices as well.

2) PalmOS 5 will NOT support the new high speed GSM data standards any time in the next couple of years - if ever. A complete rewrite of PalmOS could have allowed for this support to be included, but remember what happened to Cobalt?

3) Maintaining backward compatibility with almost all legacy PalmOS apps is actually no longer important. The PalmOS app library is now (in 2006) more of a marketing tool than it is of real importance. If one cuts through the SPIN and BS it's obvious that Windows Mobile's app library has already equalled - if not surpassed - the PalmOS library in terms of current, well-coded apps. How many of Palm's 30,000 available apps are useless, throwaway "list"/database apps coded by hacks within a few hours? How many apps in the library are abandonware dating back to PalmOS 3 (or earllier!) that barely - if at all - function on new devices. Approximately 1/4 of the apps I use are no longer updated, with several developers having either simply lost interest in coding for PalmOS or gone out of business (it's almost impossible to make a decent living selling apps to consumers given how much high quality freeware is available and how easy it is to crack PalmOS apps).

4) Since Access has abandoned development of PalmOS, it no longer makes sense for a manufacturer to commit to producing devices running an abandonware OS. It would be like Dell suddenly selling its latest PCs loaded with OS/2. So in 2006, are there ANY advantages for a manufacturer to choose PalmOS? There used to be quite a few - but most have now either disappeared or are easily nullifed by workarounds:

- Intuitive PIM
Incredibly, after 10 years PalmOS STILL has by far the best UI for simple PIM functions, yet no one selling Windows Mobile software has been smart enough to see the huge potential market for an app/UI layer offering Windows Mobile users an experience similar to PalmOS PIM. Palm could easily create a "Palm-like" set of PIM apps for Windows Mobile and either negotiate with Microsoft to have a customized distro or else offer the apps as a "Palm OS Classic" skin for Windows Mobile. This isn't exactly rocket science.

- Available advanced PIM
While one of the main reasons I stuck with PalmOS over the years was the power of replacement PIM apps like DateBk3/4/5, 3rd party Windows Mobile PIM apps like Pocket Informant have as much - and typically more - power as their PalmOS counterparts.

- Better syncing with Microsoft Office apps/data (ironic, isn't it?)
Word, Excel, Outlook, Project, PowerPoint, etc all can be made to easily sync with PalmOS RELIABLY. I still run a 6 year old abandoned app called URLSync (the best PDA Toolbox app ever made!) that syncs my desktop Internet Explorer favorites list with my various PalmOS PDAs. (The developer kindly provided an acquaintance of mine with the keygen needed to register the desktop component/conduit of URLSync, so I've been able to keep using it as I upgraded my devices over the years.) Microsoft's syncing and backup abilities are much less reliable. Third party apps solve some of Windows Mobile headaches, but not all. BIG advantage: PalmOS

- Reliable alarms
Again, another BASIC function that PalmOS has always got right, but Windows Mobile always screwed up. Current workarounds have made Windows Mobile more reliable, but I still don't trust it.

- Niche apps
Because PalmOS is easy to code for and has been around for a long time there are a huge number of apps available that either were made by hobby coders to solve a personal need or were made to target a small subset of users (teachers, students, physicians, dieters, lawyers, etc.) Want a calculator using Roman numerals? A clock that counts down the remaining days until Halloween? An app for listing the hours your favorite stores are open? A (very extensive) unit converter? A medical formula program? An app for performing wireless queries for driving directions, phone numbers, addresses? A loan calculator? A sunrise/sunset calculator? An app for factoring numbers? PalmOS has you covered with FREEWARE apps that do all this and a ton of other (often obscure) functions. Only problem is that Windows Mobile not only is catching up but typically has equivalent apps that are much better-featured than their PalmOS counterparts. Comparing the difference between the PalmOS and Windows Mobile versions of apps like Resco Photo Viewer and Resco Explorer underscores how far behind the curve PalmOS has fallen. At least my copy of Manana still works and has no Windows Mobile equivalent...

- Better hardware running PalmOS
The Samsung i500 smartphone, Sony CLIE UX50/TH55/VZ90 are PalmOS devices that were better made than competing Windows-based devices at the time. Only problem is that they're all discontinued. Furthermore, with the release of the Treo 700w, the sole remaining PalmOS hardware advantage has evaporated.

- Better push email solutions.
Looks like Microsoft Exchange update is about to wipe out another of the PalmOS advantages. Of course, Palm never exactly did anything with the 3 year jump they had on Microsoft now, did they...

- Ease of coding
With every new Palm device breaking half the apps out there it looks like many developers are ready to throw in the towel. Who would ever have thought PalmOS would become LESS backwards compatible than Windows Mobile?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PalmOS has become like a gangrenous limb for Palm. Palm needs to amputate that diseased limb before it ends up killing the company. Colligan is now Gates' biotch and it's time he bent over, hiked up his dress and took it like a man. Remember, Ed: just think of the Queen (Yankowski).

Like Krusty the Clown says: "Don't balme me! I didn't do it!

http://www.thesimpsons.com/bios/bios_townspeople_krusty.htm


TVoR/Carl Y.

PalmSource Deadpool: David Schlesinger ('stonemonkey') R.I.P.?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/28/2006 3:00:41 PM # Q
PalmSource code monkeys dropping like flies.

Vicious insults being hurled at PalmSource leadership in private.

Access shutting down USA operations and diverting operations to Nanjing, China.

Question: What's a dorky Japanophile PalmSource manager to do?

Answer: Seppuku.

Till now I thought
that death befell
the untalented alone.
If those with talent, too, must die
surely they make a better manure?

Time to sharpen that butter knife...


Hugs & Kisses.

I am. Ronin.

RE: Lowrider
T_W @ 5/28/2006 8:49:00 PM # Q
TVOR,

Mr Gates left a voice mail for you.

He said you can turn your timesheet into the Redmond office.

Oh, he said yo keep up the good work.

RE: Lowrider
T_W @ 5/28/2006 8:54:02 PM # Q
I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it seems likely to me that Palm sees the heroic effort to accomplish limited, hacked-in multi-tasking just to achieve UMTS compliance would be better put to developing a new Palm OS framework on a modern system architecture.

Of course half the people on this board were saying the same thing about EVDO. Remember all of the "no more PalmOS Treos" crap that was going on after the 700W announcement.

For now, I will assume that the purveyors of doom and gloom are once again understimating the extensability of Garnet.

After all, they've all been wrong before.

RE: Lowrider
PenguinPowered @ 5/28/2006 10:12:28 PM # Q
The smarter codemonkeys saw this coming last year and deserted the sinking ship in late 2005. (Remind me: when was it that Marty Fouts left?)

late 2005.

PalmSource is definitely not ready to close up shop. They are hiring apace, and they have plenty of work for the people they're hiring.

Palm is wasting its time persuing its inhouse PalmLinux dreams.

If they are persuing one, they're definitely wasting time. They'd be much better off collaborationg with MontaVista or Access.
They should do the aps, and leave the low level OS distro to people who are in that business.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Easyrider and Bollywood
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/29/2006 2:41:32 AM # Q
TVOR,

Mr Gates left a voice mail for you.

He said you can turn your timesheet into the Redmond office.

Oh, he said yo keep up the good work.

Most Palm Apologists know I work on commission only. $10 for every soul of a former PalmOS user I deliver to Beelzebub Gates...


P.S. If you REALLY think I'm a Windows Mobile astroturfer you're even dumber than Simony, Jeff Kirvin/Dr Opinion, just_little_me and Rhino Steve all rolled into one.

Windows Mobile doesn't need shills like Ed H advocating here for their platform - Palm has done a great job destroying the PalmOS platform all by themselves...

>>>Palm is wasting its time persuing its inhouse PalmLinux dreams.

If they are persuing one, they're definitely wasting time. They'd be much better off collaborationg with MontaVista or Access.
They should do the aps, and leave the low level OS distro to people who are in that business.


If only ANYONE had adecent Linux distro that Palm could add their apps and UI to...


Palm needs a simple, fast, reliable, guaranteed, turnkey smartphone OS to replace PalmOS 5. After wasting 4 years on the Cobalt Catastrophe, they can't afford another OS failure. Windows Mobile is on REAL, shipping hardware. Cobalt isn't. PalmLinux isn't. You do the math.

PALM SIMPLY CANNOT KEEP TRYING TO REINVENT THE WHEEL.


TVoR

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/29/2006 3:27:37 AM # Q
"Palm needs a simple, fast, reliable, guaranteed, turnkey smartphone OS to replace PalmOS 5. After wasting 4 years on the Cobalt Catastrophe, they can't afford another OS failure. Windows Mobile is on REAL, shipping hardware. Cobalt isn't. PalmLinux isn't. You do the math."

No Cobalt + No PalmLinux + Keeping the Palm faithful happy (which means no Windows) + OS that already works = 2 more years of Garnet?

Are you *sure* you want us to do that math?

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good

Palm's only realistic solution is to fully embrace Microsoft
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/29/2006 12:42:52 PM # Q
No Cobalt + No PalmLinux + Keeping the Palm faithful happy (which means no Windows) + OS that already works = 2 more years of Garnet?

Are you *sure* you want us to do that math?

Yes. You forgot to add StyleTap Platform to the equation and some PalmOS-style customizations of the Windows Mobile UI by Palm.

The answer is obvious.

Sorry for burstng your bubble.

TVoR

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/29/2006 6:12:48 PM # Q
We'll see. If Palm do a killer implementation of WinMob on Hollywood, then maybe they'll make it more appealing to folks like me.

The problem with WinMob is not that it can't replicate the functionality of PalmOS. The problem is that it's *Windows*!! Many people hate Windows. Many people just dislike it enough to choose an alternative when there's one available.

And the PalmOS still beats WinMob in other areas. One 700p review (Pogue's, I think) was mentioning how the new streaming audio and video features on the 700p work *better* than the IE+WMP combination on the 700w. This from an OS that everyone says is light-years behind.

As you yourself have pointed out, becoming Just Another Windows Licensee would be bad news for Palm - UI customisations or not.

So, a WinMob future until Access or Palm comes up with the alternative? Does not compute.

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good

RE: Lowrider
AdamaDBrown @ 5/29/2006 6:40:33 PM # Q
The problem with WinMob is not that it can't replicate the functionality of PalmOS. The problem is that it's *Windows*!!

Huh? How is that logical? "It's not that it's bad to use, I just think Bill Gates is the devil"? Look, I hated Windows 98 as much as anybody, but it seems rather silly to select your technology based on a grudge rather than on what works. Sticking with Palm OS because you like it makes sense, but sticking with it because it's not Microsoft makes, well, none.

RE: Lowrider
EdH @ 5/29/2006 8:04:46 PM # Q
freakout said:The problem with WinMob is not that it can't replicate the functionality of PalmOS. The problem is that it's *Windows*!! Many people hate Windows. Many people just dislike it enough to choose an alternative when there's one available.

That isn't a problem. That is zealotry. Why do people hate it? Is it they are still thinking of Win95/98/ME instead of real operating systems like WinNT4, 2000 and XP? Is it they load their systems up with so much stuff, including free things that slam malware on the system that no OS would be a pleasant experience? And how does any of that relate to Windows Mobile?

And the PalmOS still beats WinMob in other areas. One 700p review (Pogue's, I think) was mentioning how the new streaming audio and video features on the 700p work *better* than the IE+WMP combination on the 700w. This from an OS that everyone says is light-years behind.

David Pogue? David Pogue of "Piloting Palm?" That David Pogue? Oh, ok. Yeah, no hit of bias there.

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/29/2006 9:29:13 PM # Q
^^ Wow. Did I touch a nerve?

I'm not talking logically when I speak of Windows. As I said, the functionality of WinMob isn't in dispute; it's the brand that's the problem. For many people, Windows as a brand signifies great expense, unnecessary bloat and poor security.

Logically speaking, WinMob trumps PalmOS in almost every area. Logically then, Palm should have been dead and buried long ago.

This hasn't happened, so clearly logic is not the only factor in people's decisions.

My dislike of Windows is based purely on my very, very bad experiences with Win98 over the years. I actually find XP is a very nice OS if you keep it up to date. Despite this, I still have a bad taste in my mouth.

Windows as a brand is damaged goods for many people. All I'm doing is pointing that out.

For the record, I'm not an anti-MS zealot; I love my Xbox to bits. I'm just not the biggest fan of Windows.

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good

RE: Lowrider
Gekko @ 5/29/2006 11:24:51 PM # Q

Enterprise is the key to future smartphone growth. Enterprise loves MSFT. Enterprise will not gamble on some new bastardized-Linux island propietary OS - they will choose MSFT/WinMob. And WinMob means commoditization for smartphone makers.



RE: Lowrider
SeldomVisitor @ 5/30/2006 6:40:09 AM # Q
> ...commoditization for smartphone makers.

Yup yup yup.

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/30/2006 7:01:10 AM # Q
I agree that enterprise is the key for now. But as "dumbphones" take on more and more smartphone capabilities, the consumer market will begin to become just as important.

If Palm can get the Lowrider design right then they may be able to crack it. I for one can't wait to see what they come up with...

[pointedly ignores cynics yelling "Treo 600 rehash!"]

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good

RE: Lowrider
PenguinPowered @ 5/30/2006 9:40:13 PM # Q
Enterprise is the key to future smartphone growth. in the Enterprise.

Consumer smartphones are a whole different market.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Lowrider
PenguinPowered @ 5/30/2006 9:41:36 PM # Q
If only ANYONE had adecent Linux distro that Palm could add their apps and UI to...

Eh, The Linux distro part's not that hard. You use crosstool to cross compile for your platform, along with scratchbox for any applications you feel like putting on it. Then all you need is a kernel port to your hardware, busybox, and power management.

There's already CPU ports for all of the processors used in the telephony space, so the kernel port amounts to getting device drivers working.

If you really must have GNU-ish stuff, the debian arm distro works fine, and you can use directfb/gtk or you can be crazy and use the handheld.org tiny-x implementation.

If you don't feel like doing all that yourself, you can buy MontaVista's mobilinux.

The hard part is the UI and applications.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Lowrider
EdH @ 5/30/2006 10:35:41 PM # Q
freakout said: I'm not talking logically when I speak of Windows.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying that.


RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 5/31/2006 3:04:46 AM # Q
You're welcome, Ed. All in the spirit of irrational OS hatred!

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good
Rolling their own?
freakout @ 5/31/2006 6:53:10 AM # Q
PenguinPowered, taking into account the sort of people they're trying to hire, if Palm are creating their own Linux OS, would it be more likely that they are working off someone else's distro, or creating their own?

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good
RE: Lowrider
cervezas @ 5/31/2006 11:26:50 AM # Q
freakout wrote:
PenguinPowered, taking into account the sort of people they're trying to hire, if Palm are creating their own Linux OS, would it be more likely that they are working off someone else's distro, or creating their own?

My two cents on this: The job openings that I've seen on Palm's site have all been about either framework and application development or tools development, which is why I've assumed Palm is partnering with a commercial Linux vendor for the kernel and services.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Get serious, Marty.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/31/2006 1:45:05 PM # Q
Eh, The Linux distro part's not that hard. You use crosstool to cross compile for your platform, along with scratchbox for any applications you feel like putting on it. Then all you need is a kernel port to your hardware, busybox, and power management.

Marty, you're hilarious. Now you're starting to sound dangerously like Dianne Hackborn... I love it when my biotches say crazy things like you two do.

Anyone trying to hack their own Linux-based distro will end up with a S L O W system + having to custom code a he11 of a lot of the overall architecture in the end. In case you haven't noticed, Palm isn't exactly well stocked with codemonkey talent these days (or EVER, for that matter). Palm will never succeed in releasing a smartphone OS if they try to do it by themselves. Funny you mention power management since it's one of the (many) problems with Linux-based devices...

I'd love to see Palm try a Direct framebuffer implementation just to see how slow an OS can possibly run. Please. I dare them.

The pragmatic solution is to negotiate with Lord Gates to be allowed to customize the UI of Windows Mobile + throw in a suite of Palm-style PIM apps and a version of StyleTap Platform. Period. All problems solved QUICKLY, with no risk and without losing current developer or customer bases. [Is there REALLY any difference between using StyleTap Platform with Windows Mobile, Access' proposed version of POSE and a Palm-coded version of POSE fr PalmLinux?] Palm attempting to develop their own OS at this stage of the game is idiotic. Reminds me of how Tapwave tried to reinvent themselves as a media device as the creditors were knocking on their front door.

It's time for Palm to be honest for a change.Unless a deep-pocketed dim-witted company buys Palm out in the next few weeks Palm will now have to succeed (or fail) based on the relative merit of its products. The playing field is now level in 2006 and Palm is a very minor league team compared to All Star Professionals like Nokia and Motorola.

TVoR


RE: Lowrider
PenguinPowered @ 5/31/2006 1:48:24 PM # Q
What David said.

They have had a number of kernel support positions, but if you have unique hardware, you need that even if you're using someone else's distro.

The two obvious candidates are ALP and Mobilinux, but it would crack me up no end if they went with a modified maemo.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Deepthroater
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/31/2006 4:14:25 PM # Q
it would crack me up no end if they went with a modified maemo

Don't say that too loudly, Bubba. You might just end up with a Horse Head Pillow.

http://www.kropserkel.com/horse_head_pillow.htm

Be careful out there, Marty. I'd hate to see something bad happen to you.


TVoR

RE: Lowrider
cervezas @ 5/31/2006 4:18:46 PM # Q
Not Maemo with all it's Hildon baggage... but what about GPE? :-D

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Lowrider
cervezas @ 5/31/2006 4:55:42 PM # Q
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9619729890.html

Just what the doctor ordered?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Lowrider
AdamaDBrown @ 5/31/2006 6:31:30 PM # Q
Palm attempting to develop their own OS at this stage of the game is idiotic.

If they were starting now, yes. Even if they started six months ago. If they have even the barest brain cell, though, they'll have started the project a good year and a half to two years ago. By that point, they obviously already knew they weren't going to use Cobalt, and they were talking to Microsoft about a Windows-based Treo, so it would have been logical for them to at least consider their own OS, even if it was a back-burner project.

(Shocker!!!) Introducing Palm's awesome new platform: ChaOS
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/31/2006 9:22:19 PM # Q
If they have even the barest brain cell, though, they'll have started the project a good year and a half to two years ago


You give Palm more credit than they deserve. They assumed that they would have been the proud owners of PalmOS by now. (The clever poison pill they introduced into the PalmSource contract was designed to scare off most (sane) companies that might have been willing to make a bid for PalmSource.) Palm's got bupkis right now because they had not planned for the Access-induced Doomsday Scenario.

The new PalmOS is ChaOS™.

TVoR

RE: Lowrider
AdamaDBrown @ 6/1/2006 3:14:16 AM # Q
Perhaps. But they were bright enough to start dealing with Microsoft around the same time frame, and they were reportedly checking out other OSes including flavors of Linux and Symbian. Obviously they already knew that PalmSource wasn't going to be able to deliver a fresh OS in a timely manner.

RE: Lowrider
freakout @ 6/1/2006 5:18:43 AM # Q
"An app opening in China can crash a PDA in Brazil!"

I can see the marketing now.

RE: Lowrider
Simony @ 6/1/2006 6:11:52 PM # Q
> The clever poison pill they introduced into the PalmSource contract was designed to scare off most (sane) companies that might have been willing to make a bid for PalmSource

My friend, if ignorance were strength, you would be a superman.

In the real world it is very common for long term contracts to have clauses which allow for termination if there is a change in control of one of the parties. Such clauses are nearly 'boilerplate'.



Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.

Buy a vowel, Bubba
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/1/2006 11:55:57 PM # Q
My friend, if ignorance were strength, you would be a superman.

In the real world it is very common for long term contracts to have clauses which allow for termination if there is a change in control of one of the parties. Such clauses are nearly 'boilerplate'.

"My friend", every post you make here underscores how dimwitted you are (assuming you aren't simply just a Palm-sponsored Astroturfer).

Carry on.


TVoR

RE: Lowrider
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/2/2006 12:00:02 AM # Q
Perhaps. But they were bright enough to start dealing with Microsoft around the same time frame, and they were reportedly checking out other OSes including flavors of Linux and Symbian. Obviously they already knew that PalmSource wasn't going to be able to deliver a fresh OS in a timely manner.

Given the fact that Palm had no other choices at the time, do you REALLY think turning to Microsoft means Palm is "bright enough"? Get serious.

TVoR

RE: Lowrider
AdamaDBrown @ 6/2/2006 12:03:50 AM # Q
They recognized that they were going to need to diversify away from Palm OS 5 if they were going to be viable for the long term. I call that being at least a little bright. Granted, they weren't bright enough to do it faster, or to have something that could replace Garnet on more of their line than just the 700w, or even to plan ahead in terms of how they were going to hack the OS. But they were at least aware that they needed to make a change. Inertia is their biggest enemy.

RE: Lowrider
PenguinPowered @ 6/2/2006 1:49:33 AM # Q
Not Maemo with all it's Hildon baggage... but what about GPE? :-D

GPE is what you get if you wait for ACCESS to finish ALP, except with different icons. ;)


May You Live in Interesting Times

Actually...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/2/2006 3:59:12 AM # Q
GPE is what you get if you wait for ACCESS to finish ALP, except with different icons. ;)

Actually, BANKRUPT "is what you get if you wait for ACCESS to finish ALP" and haven't already moved most of your lineup on to an OS more modern than PalmOS 5. I expect Nokia will soon announce that they have added telephony to maemo, creating a "maemo 2" smartphone. At that point, $500 clunky Treos will be doing about as well as dinosaurs did in the Ice Age...

TVoR

Reply to this comment

No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...

gfunkmagic @ 5/24/2006 7:23:34 PM # Q
I guess FrankenGarnet did it again...

There's a bunch of rumors that Palm has had a difficult time hacking FrankenGarnet to UMTS/HSPDA device due to the inherant limitations of the platform supporting both dual data+voice functionality...apparently due to the lack of multitasking etc.

If true, then this would fit the reasoning why no immediate mention of a FrankenGarnet version of the rumored "Hollywood" model has been made by the above article. However, that is not to say that Sagio's predicitons are 100% correct. However, it would make sense considering the strategy Palm has undertaken with it's last few Treo models...

Palm has obviously leveraged WM for it's drive of 3G integration into the Treo line. Without doing so would have put it in a significantly weakened position. Palm was able to create the 1xEvDo telephony stack for the 700p, which is being released now. But they could not have waited until mid 2006 to release a 1xEvDo model, thus the 700w. It would be interesting (actually amazing) if they could pull off the same thing with a PalmOS version of the supposed Hollywood device...I hope they do...

--------------------
Gaurav

Current devices: Treo 650 + Axim X50v
Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600

Moderator, Treocentral

RE: No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...
EdH @ 5/24/2006 9:20:39 PM # Q
The launch of the Treo Hollywood in CY3Q06 - this antenna-less, 3G, Windows-powered smartphone will allow PALM to significantly grow its unit shipments by finally offering a compelling European phone.

That says it all. PalmOS simply isn't a compelling European phone. Windows Mobile has ruled that market since 2002 at least. PalmOS has been the anchor on Treo sales over there. Palm will finally get some traction with the right OS.

RE: No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...
T_W @ 5/25/2006 11:41:49 AM # Q
Windows Mobile has ruled that market since 2002 at least.

I'm always amazed that the continent that is so willing to embrace Linux and Firefox would want Window's F'ing Mobile on their cell phones.

Why? Why????

I've also heard rumors that MSN Messenger (of all things) is popular in Europe.

It boggles the mind.

RE: No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...
dirkmeissner @ 5/25/2006 12:16:27 PM # Q
I do not have numbers, but I see what kind of device my friends are using. Windows Mobile might be more popular than Palm OS, but Symbian (mostly Nokia phone) is way popular than Windows Mobile.

RE: No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...
T_W @ 5/25/2006 1:33:55 PM # Q
I do not have numbers, but I see what kind of device my friends are using. Windows Mobile might be more popular than Palm OS, but Symbian (mostly Nokia phone) is way popular than Windows Mobile.

Similarly, I know lots of people with Palm PDA's and a good number of people with Treos.

I've only seen ONE Windows Mobile phone in use EVER among all of my contacts.

I've seen a few Windows Mobile PDAs but they were ALWAYS sitting in cradles on desks and never in use.


RE: No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...
EdH @ 5/26/2006 2:34:08 PM # Q
T_W said:Similarly, I know lots of people with Palm PDA's and a good number of people with Treos.

I've only seen ONE Windows Mobile phone in use EVER among all of my contacts.

I've seen a few Windows Mobile PDAs but they were ALWAYS sitting in cradles on desks and never in use.
Ahhh yes... the rock solid anecdotal evidence from a device aficionado to support their platform of choice that flies in the face of the reality of the market share numbers.

Boy, Microsoft, HP, Dell and all the major cellular carriers sure have pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. They convinced them to buy these devices, but no one really uses them. They just sit on desks drawing electricity as they sit in the cradle.

RE: No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...
T_W @ 5/28/2006 8:50:37 PM # Q
I don't think I ever claimed it was anthing but anecdotal evidence.

Yet, in reality I see Crackberries and Treos everywhere. Where are all of these Windows Mobile smart phones?

They certainly don't seem to be in use (at least not very much).

RE: No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...
EdH @ 5/28/2006 8:58:24 PM # Q
T_W said:

Yet, in reality I see Crackberries and Treos everywhere. Where are all of these Windows Mobile smart phones?

They certainly don't seem to be in use (at least not very much).

Oh, they are not in use. They are all charging. Once a significant portion of the sockets near desks are filled up, I assure you, the jig is up. Microsoft and its OEM partners will be outed as running the biggest mobile device scam ever, fooling millions of users into buying their devices only to never take them anywhere.

Just be patient T_W. The time is coming. Windows Mobile will be discontinued and PalmOS will return to >80% marketshare.


Bollywood
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 5/29/2006 3:08:40 AM # Q
Oh, they are not in use. They are all charging. Once a significant portion of the sockets near desks are filled up, I assure you, the jig is up. Microsoft and its OEM partners will be outed as running the biggest mobile device scam ever, fooling millions of users into buying their devices only to never take them anywhere.

Just be patient T_W. The time is coming. Windows Mobile will be discontinued and PalmOS will return to >80% marketshare.

I envision the PalmOS resurgence being led by a flurry of releases of Visorphone Springboard modules. It shall come to pass. Colligan said so.


TVoR

RE: No mention of PalmOS version of (GSM) Hollywood model...
freakout @ 5/29/2006 3:48:18 AM # Q
^^ Dr. Opinion was right all along!

This sig is a placeholder till I come up with something good
Reply to this comment

Riiiight.

AdamaDBrown @ 5/25/2006 2:21:26 AM # Q
The return of Hollywood. Sheesh. These guys don't give up, do they?

Sorry, but I have a hard time with any "investment report" when it's as filled with bubbling praise and reeeeally bad writing as the Sagio reports are.

Reply to this comment

Anybody at Palm listening?

Storkdude @ 5/30/2006 2:46:51 PM # Q
I got tired of waiting for Hollywood and was hypoimpressed by the 700P so I got a Razr when my old contract was up. Sitting the thing on top of an E2 still makes a small package. With a shared screen, case, and battery Palm could use internals of a Razr or Samsung A900 and wed it to something like an E2 and make a real killer of a smartphone with a nice big screen. A TX screen would even be nicer but that would certainly make too much sense. What the heck is holding them back from making an E2/Razr monster? Do it already. The 700 has a teeny little screen and is too thick and has that stump coming out of the top.
RE: Anybody at Palm listening?
hkklife @ 5/30/2006 5:04:06 PM # Q
$$

Every penny saved up front for Palm is viewed as being of far greater value than long run sales successes or market perception.

The US market seems tolerant of CDMA phones with ungainly antennae sticking out of the top. That, combined with the SSSS (Small Square Screen Syndrome) encouraged by both Palm and the developer community (look at how many programs haven't been updated since '03 when the T3 launched) will keep the ancient Treo brick FF alive ( at least in CDMA markets for another year +)

If Palm won't go with a 320*480 Treo at least give us a physically LARGER 320*320 LCD as last rumor's hinted at.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Reply to this comment

MSFT getting into phone hardware business?

SeldomVisitor @ 6/26/2006 6:17:03 AM # Q
News everywhere this AM, e.g.:

-- http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articlehybrid.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:reuters.com:20060626:MTFH85837_2006-06-26_05-49-18_N24340214&type=comktNews&rpc=44

Motorola and others mentioned as the hardware guys being partnered with.

No mention (as far as I have seen at the time of this post) of either HTC or PALM (PALM not expected by this poster, HTC would have been).

RE: MSFT getting into phone hardware business?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/26/2006 6:23:35 AM # Q
In fact, the Motorola Q is explicitly mentioned in MSFT's PR about Motorola:

-- http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060626/nym075.html?.v=38

I wonder if MSFT is allowing PALM to make their own PR or announcement at their upcoming earnings release?

Or if PALM said "no words til earnings because we're in our corporate-lawyer-induced 'quiet period', please"?

Otherwise, the omission is the proverbial glaring one...

RE: MSFT getting into phone hardware business? - Unlikely.
Surur @ 6/26/2006 7:40:02 AM # Q
I don't see anything in that article which suggests Microsoft hardware. It reads more as the usual WM-based collaboration, but the press release is US focussed, hence naming HP and Motorola, vs the relatively unknown HTC.

It does however sound as if The next office and the next WM will work together a whole lot better, in a kind of synergy which means that a Spreadsheet Warrior is going to want to carry a MS smartphone on his hip, and that a MS smartphone user will see the benefit of using Office vs OpenOffice.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: MSFT getting into phone hardware business?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/26/2006 7:53:29 AM # Q
My apologies - that Reuters article noted up above wasn't the best.

Here's the official MSFT releases that have much more an international flavor:

-- http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060626/nym074.html?.v=42

-- http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060626/nym076a.html?.v=1

RE: MSFT getting into phone hardware business?
PenguinPowered @ 6/27/2006 5:00:42 AM # Q
um, you do realize that's all about VoIP and has nothing to do with non-internet telephony, right?

May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: MSFT getting into phone hardware business?
Surur @ 6/27/2006 6:21:57 AM # Q

I think MS is trying to create a whole device ecosystem surrounding their solution, to create an ipod-like device locking, meaning you want change over to something else because suddenly you won't get full value from your periferals. I don't think MS das the clout to pull thos of however,and it seems even to be a rather desperate move.

MS actually did make a desktop phone a long time ago, but it did not last very long in the market. I suspect this initiative will go the same way.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: MSFT getting into phone hardware business?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2006 7:17:57 AM # Q
Um...did you realize that the Motorola/MSFT PR noted above specifically mentions the Q?

And that MSFT, unlike legacy carriers and phone sellers (*), actually does consider what is coming rather than what has been.

======

(*) PALM doesn't make its TREOs so can't really call them a phone builder...

Wonder if Sonus is tied into this in any way - that company is near and dear (uh huh) to my heart - and Motorola is a major partner of theirs.

Reply to this comment

RIMM buying out PALM?

cervezas @ 6/27/2006 12:02:09 PM # Q
So no comments on the big PALM-RIMM merger rumor that's buzzing around? Apparently, the two companies have rescheduled their quarterly conference calls to coincide with each other this Thursday and an unnamed CNet reporter has dished that a merger announcement is the reason.

http://biz.yahoo.com/tm/060627/14453.html?.v=1
http://stockoperator.livejournal.com/23376.html

Rumor or not, it seems like a pretty plausible prospect to me. Palm has been under a lot of pressure to entertain a buyout and RIM is looking down the barrel of Treo growth that it can't match with the BlackBerry.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: RIMM buying out PALM?
AdamaDBrown @ 6/27/2006 1:23:34 PM # Q
Enh. We've heard this a couple of times before. I thought it was plausible back then, but less so now. Palm's market cap is nearly double what it used to be, and RIM is no longer in the same tenuous legal position that could cause it to want to branch out. It's still possible--RIM never really wanted to be a hardware company, so I could see them merging Palm into their hardware division and making the whole thing a little more independent. Still, I doubt it's going to happen. I'm always dubious of small independent blogs claiming huge scoops--they tend not to pan out. Plus, RIM has been doing quite alright with their BBs--the Treo doesn't really have much on them in terms of growth.

RE: RIMM buying out PALM?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2006 1:53:22 PM # Q
(1) No one rescheduled anything.

(2) One multi-ID-using person posted about 479 times the same unfounded content on Yahoo and started a "blog" to continue the posting.

(3) ALL the articles in the Me-Too Media are referencing, either directly or indirectly, the same blog.

You posted a link to the blog.

RE: RIMM buying out PALM?
Ryan @ 6/27/2006 2:19:19 PM # Q
I really don't see anything to this rumor, its very heavy on speculation and doesn't seem to plausible.
RE: RIMM buying out PALM?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 3:08:30 PM # Q
ALL the articles in the Me-Too Media are referencing, either directly or indirectly, the same blog.

Heh, you're probably right, although Yahoo attributes a "CNet reporter." I forget that "CNet reporters" these days are probably just surfing blogs and reporting them as news after their shift at Wendy's.

Slightly in the guy's defense, his blog was not just created as you suggest. It's been around at least since January. Sure the guy may be trying lamely to pump up his sagging portfolio, but that's obviously a factor whenever people post about stocks. No need to make up stories about the guy to convince us we should be skeptical.

Anyway, fact checks appreciated as usual.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: RIMM buying out PALM?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 4:08:22 PM # Q
Found the CNet blogger that Yahoo presumably was referring to as a "reporter" and it seems like you're right that the post just points back indirectly to the one blog entry I linked to, which in turn is just giving a bunch of circumstantial evidence. So, move along... nothing to see here. :-/

So, how 'bout that "PalmOne Treo Lennon"? ;-) Didn't realize Palm was spinning off their Windows Mobile division and calling it PalmOne. Good thing I read Engadget to keep up on these things.

Sigh.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: RIMM buying out PALM?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2006 4:09:27 PM # Q
The CNET guy references Tech Evangelist. Tech Evangelist references the same blog as noted above.

Be careful about the Me-Too Media - they're aren't called "Me-Too" for no reason...

Giggle.

Kook warning on TreoCentral.
AdamaDBrown @ 6/28/2006 12:21:18 PM # Q
Speak of the devil... This guy has been pushing this story, as well as a claim about a new Treo launching next month, on TreoCentral for a couple of days. The following message is priceless.

----------------------------------------------

Full story: two hedge funds that are short on PALM are trying to steal PALM away from the regular joes who bought Palm because they like the Treo. They are going to way a propaganda war, over the next two trading days. I seem to be the only with the balls to stand up to them.. They have infiltrated your board...

You can see: I really am a Treo geek and provide value to the community: http://discussion.treocentral.com/s...earchid=4915944

Look through my posts.

They are blocking my attempts to get the word out about the merger and the early release of the new Treo. They even planted a fake rumor about the Oct release of the Treo I have spoken two two Cingular Enterprise accounts reps. They indicate a release date of August, but for special demand could get "bootleg" version as early as July. I can only assume these bootleg versions are the 750w that is being launched in Europe next month.

Palm is gonna explode on Friday. Please spread the word!! ANd help me fight these monsters who have been messing with our beloved PALM for the past two months...

-stockoperator

P.S. - I am willing to talk on the phone if you need to verify my identity.
P.S.S> - I have been fighting these creeps and their hired paid bashers on the Yahoo PALM board for over a month. I need help from the Treo community!!

----------------------------------------------

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1033759&postcount=14

Besides the conspiracy theory overtones, he also started out incognito, with an astroturf campaign. I don't know whether to think he's cluelessly trying to manipulate the stock, or if he's just crazy.

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HTC top 3rd IT company in world, says Business Week

Surur @ 6/27/2006 6:54:12 PM # Q
Business Week

Can anything stop HTC? The world's leading producer of smart phones operating on Windows software has been the unquestioned star of Taiwan's tech world. Rivals like Motorola are offering some competition, but HTC's early lead and close ties with Microsoft have helped the company stay far ahead of the pack.

The company has impressive growth and soaring profits, and investors have every reason to be pleased with this year's performance, especially as shareholder return hit 314%. Winning big contracts to make personal digital assistants, or PDAs, such as Hewlett Packard's (HPQ) iPAQ, and smart phones for T-mobile and Cingular, has been a key component of HTC's success, securing its position as one of the premier handset designers and manufacturers in the world.

But HTC has shown they're no longer content with the status quo. HTC chair Cher Wang recently acquired control of handset maker Dopod, suggesting she will now try to build up products under the company's own name. HTC has thrived by staying out of the brand name business. Will customers feel comfortable with HTC now a competitor as well as a supplier?

http://bwnt.businessweek.com/it100/2006/index.asp

Commentary:
HTC is doing pretty well, and as the article says is currently the darling of Taiwan. This will lead many other companies, both large and small, to try and emulate them. Expect of flood of Windows Mobile devices from a wide variety of ODM's to reach the market soon. The only question is whether they will be able to expand the market beyond the hardcore and into the consumer market. Personally I dont feel the OS is ready for that yet, but I may be proven wrong. Certainly compelling consumer features such as GPS, TV and good cameras are essential to appeal to a wider market, and in this they will be competing against simple feature phones too.

HTC may be growing very well, but the future is far from clear.

BTW, with the news of the Treo Lenon and Nitro, there is also news of 2 HTC branded devices being released on Cingular in September/October. The HTC Hermes and HTC Startrek will be right there on the shelf next to the Lenon, and the HP 6920 with GPS and exposed keyboard will also provide strong competition.
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/06/27/the-boy-genius-report-htc-hermes-and-startrek-and-ipaq-hw6920-co/

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

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