Comments on: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps

iPhone Locked DownThe New York Times has just posted an intriguing article regarding the closed ecosystem of AT&T and Appleís iPhone. Written by Saul Hansell, the piece attempts to shed some light on the myriad of issues surrounding the notoriously closed environment fostered by both Appleís and their sole domestic provider of choice, AT&T Wireless (formerly Cingular).

Palm's Mark Bercow, the senior vice president of business development is quoted several times within the article on his role of chief evangelist of the Palm OS to the software development community. In short, Mr. Bercow states that the industry trend is heading towards openness of platforms and standards, something which stands in distinct contrast to the ironclad grip that both Apple and AT&T wield over nearly every aspect of the much-ballyhooed yet much-maligned iPhone.

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How can preinstalled software hurt?

tobefrnk @ 10/3/2007 1:10:05 PM # Q
I'm not sure I follow the preinstalled software irking 3rd party developers. For those whose software is preintalled, I imagine that Palm is paying them some sort of license. For those whose product is not preinstalled, Palm isn't locking them out and people will try/buy their software if they want to which they would have done anyway had software not been preinstalled. Yeah, If I already have a piece of software on my Palm, why buy something that does the same thing. Well I might if that something is better than what I have.

Frank

RE: How can preinstalled software hurt?
LiveFaith @ 10/3/2007 11:14:13 PM # Q
Frank,

The devs whose apps are bundled loooove bundled apps. Palm gets a value-added device by bundling MP3 playback for example. But for the third party devs who lose negotiations and are/may be shut out from being bundled have two responses:

#1 Negotiate a rediculously low price to be the "bundled guys", possibly at a loss.

or

#2 Basically kiss the Palm OS market goodbye. Why? Because if your competitor's app comes on Treos for "free", then your similar product is going to be a near impossible sale to those who own the competition for "free".

For example, how much competition really remains in the Palm OS Word/Excel/PPT/PDF department. Basically none. For whatever reason, DataViz has won the bidding as "bundled" Doc/XLS editor since the T|T. Only a tiny fraction would consider spending $20-40 for competitors when they "already" have the function "built in".

The short answer: It makes software competition a one-man game. All others besides the "bundled app" creator, are eventually shut out.


Pat Horne

RE: How can preinstalled software hurt?
joad @ 10/4/2007 12:43:06 AM # Q
It hurts *US* when Palm bundles the apps permanently into the ROM. I actually enjoy getting a few decent apps with the device - but when they're ALL outdated upon release(googlemaps, Docs to Go and Pocketunes on the 755) there's really no point to it. Just put them on a CD and let us install what we will use.

And when they update the applications we're not stuck with a permanently useless apps in ROM and the current version wasting my RAM anyhow (and conflicting at times with the ROM version). Why in the world Palm put version 8.000 of DTG into the 755's ROM is beyond me - version 10 was current on release, and version 8.003 had already been out for a YEAR by then. If it's gonna be in RAM anyhow, there's no reason to put the stuff in ROM other than as "advertising."

|
**Another vote for a >100MB RAM Treo**

RE: How can preinstalled software hurt?
twrock @ 10/4/2007 3:50:53 AM # Q
Just put them on a CD and let us install what we will use.

I'm curious as to how difficult it would be to pre-load stuff into RAM instead of ROM. Is the ROM loaded before, during, or after manufacture? If it's after, maybe they could just dump that stuff into RAM at the same time. (Admittedly I don't really know how this stuff works, but I am curious.)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: How can preinstalled software hurt?
ChiA @ 10/10/2007 7:50:01 AM # Q
For example, how much competition really remains in the Palm OS Word/Excel/PPT/PDF department. Basically none.

That's basically wrong:

Quickoffice:
www.quickoffice.com/palmos

MiniOffice:
www.solutionsinhand.com

OfficeSuite Classic 7:
www.mobisystems.com

PalmPDF:
http://www.metaviewsoft.de/en/Software/PalmOS/Freeware/PalmPDF/index.htm

It seems there's still plenty of choice here if you only spend a few minutes to look.

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Not buying this

abosco @ 10/3/2007 3:26:14 PM # Q
Another interesting figure revealed in Hansellís article is the statistic given by Palm that 2/3 of Treo owners purchased at least one third-party application. Then, quite surprisingly, Palm claims that ten percent of those users own ten or more third-party applications.


I refuse to believe that 66% of all Treo owners have purchased third-party software. If this is true, then why is the Palm OS developer community continually shrinking? How did they figure out the 2/3 number? If I were to take a guess, I'd say 15% of all Treo users have purchased third-party software.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Not buying this
Poopie @ 10/3/2007 7:35:28 PM # Q

I refuse to believe that 66% of all Treo owners have purchased third-party software.

Well if by "purchase" third-party software, you mean install or get beamed a 3rd party app (regardless of whether it's free or commercial) or install bundled apps as part of the Palm desktop CD, then I might believe that.

Otherwise, I call shenanigans too.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

RE: Not buying this
TooMuch @ 10/3/2007 8:06:09 PM # Q
"I refuse to believe that 66% of all Treo owners have purchased third-party software. If this is true, then why is the Palm OS developer community continually shrinking? How did they figure out the 2/3 number? If I were to take a guess, I'd say 15% of all Treo users have purchased third-party software."

Then why guess yourself? Not valid either.

RE: Not buying this
twrock @ 10/3/2007 10:16:13 PM # Q
If this is true, then why is the Palm OS developer community continually shrinking?

It might have something to do with how many of those 66% are "purchasing" one of the same three "great" apps. Of the "tens of thousands" of third-party Palm apps, there are a limited number that are truly good and useful, and only a percentage of those that would appeal to a large number of users (not simply a very useful niche app, highly valuable to a very small number of people). I'm not saying that the 66% is right, just that I can imagine how it might be and the community of developers is still shrinking.

On the other hand, what statistical evidence is there that the developer community is shrinking? What does "shrinking" even mean in this context? If Billy Smith releases yet another clock app, did the developer community grow? If CES Dewar dropped out the next day, is it a wash because of Billy's clock app? How many apps do Billy and his cousins have to release to balance out a truly great app like DateBk?


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Not buying this
abosco @ 10/4/2007 12:19:05 AM # Q
Then why guess yourself? Not valid either.

The difference is I'm not claiming accuracy, nor am I publishing my guess.

On the other hand, what statistical evidence is there that the developer community is shrinking? What does "shrinking" even mean in this context? If Billy Smith releases yet another clock app, did the developer community grow? If CES Dewar dropped out the next day, is it a wash because of Billy's clock app? How many apps do Billy and his cousins have to release to balance out a truly great app like DateBk?

In terms of sheer volume, Windows Mobile has more applications released monthly than the Palm OS. I believe this year is the first time that has ever happened.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Not buying this
InsGuy @ 10/5/2007 3:40:03 PM # Q
abosco may be right in that this may be the first year they pass up Palm. However, I was one of those people who changed over from Palm way back when the X30 came out. I've used the X30h ever since, and haven't regretted doing so. But..., when it was starting to die (about 2 months ago), I was considering coming back to Palm. I looked at the different Treo's from Verizon, but I just don't like them. I liked the idea of a converged device that everyone keeps talking about. I just used my pda for PIM, photos, and music. If I could incorporate these things AND add a phone, then so much the better. I ended up getting an iphone that was unlocked off ebay, and bought a pay as you go phone from AT&T and changed out the SIM cards and it works fine for me. The thing is: I don't need a bunch of 3rd party apps on my pda / phone, and I feel that a great many users of pdas / phones don't add a bunch of other software on theirs either. As such, the real deal maker for me then was the quality of the specs and of the device; a few points I feel Palm is really missing the mark on. Here I was, a potential customer who was willing to spend $400+ for a pda/phone device, and their current product line didn't sway me at all. I'm not a developer, I'm certainly NO electronics wiz, but just an ordinary, everyday user.

All good things...
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and another thing

t3h @ 10/3/2007 6:42:56 PM # Q
Given the size of... certain forums... I wonder how many actually buy the third-party apps.

I reckon the bundled apps are good for the developers - at least that way they get paid a license, and the owner of the device is in a way fored to buy the software.

Palm TX + 1GB SD + Motorola v3x = awesomeness

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Why the iPod can be conquered

Gekko @ 10/8/2007 7:23:36 PM # Q

Why the iPod can be conquered
Apple's hugely popular digital music player isn't as ubiquitous as most people think, which explains why rivals like Microsoft keep trying to dethrone it, writes Fortune's Richard Siklos.
FORTUNE Magazine
By Richard Siklos, Fortune editor-at-large
October 8 2007: 5:21 PM EDT

(Fortune) -- Far be it for any mortal to tell Steve Jobs how to flog his world-beating iPod music machine, but here's one humble suggestion: consider reviving the old Pantene Shampoo slogan: "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful."

A week doesn't go by without some reminder of how seemingly dominant the iPod has become in the portable media world business - at least in the United States - and how annoying that fact must be for its rivals and, in some cases, its partners.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/08/technology/ipod_siklos.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2007100817

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
abosco @ 10/9/2007 2:20:14 PM # Q
Just look at the other MP3 players on the market. They all lack the stylish factor. People will be WEARING these devices, so they need to look cool. Brown Zune? Yeah, the iPod will be on top for a while with competition like that.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a
The iPod is DOOMED!
mikecane @ 10/9/2007 3:32:39 PM # Q
abosco, you should know better.

The Death of the iPod is just around the corner.

Look into the face of death and wimper, lad:

http://www.engadget.com/2005/01/26/the-hello-kitty-mp3-player/

Goddam, can the whiskers on your iPhone light up? Eh, eh?

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
SeldomVisitor @ 10/9/2007 4:27:14 PM # Q
Interesting...the article mentions a 9-year old Japanese girl - I know a 9-year-old Vietnamese girl who would kill to get one...

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
Gekko @ 10/9/2007 6:14:22 PM # Q
>Just look at the other MP3 players on the market. They all lack the stylish factor. People will be WEARING these devices, so they need to look cool. Brown Zune? Yeah, the iPod will be on top for a while with competition like that.


MSFT will eventually get it right. I remember when Windows, Office, IE, WinMob, MSN, XBox, etc. were all going to fail.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
AdamaDBrown @ 10/9/2007 7:09:45 PM # Q
The question is whether they'll stay interested long enough to get it right. Microsoft's worst enemy is their short attention span.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
Gekko @ 10/9/2007 7:13:15 PM # Q

if there's still money/margins there, they'll be interested.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
ChiA @ 10/10/2007 2:00:18 AM # Q
MSFT will eventually get it right. I remember when Windows, Office, IE, WinMob, MSN, XBox, etc. were all going to fail.

Ironically the foundation blocks of Office, Excel and Word, first started life as applications for Apple's then new Macintosh.

Mercifully Microsoft still has plenty of healthy competition and rivals to MSN, XBox and even WinMob.

I think Microsoft and other rivals will have to come up with something revolutionary at a fantastic price point to dislodge the iPod's dominance. The 2nd generation Zune isn't that product, especially when it's unable to use its wi-fi to download tracks directly from the store unlike the rival iPod touch.


They say iPods and iTunes take about 80% of their relevant markets, a similar level of dominance to Windows of its market. In contrast the Mac has had at it's best no more than 20-25% of the computer market.

Furthermore, it's unlikely manufacturers who sell players which use Microsoft's WMA will be impressed by a very successful Zune.


Anyway back to Palm. The unfortunate reality is that w.r.t. music Palm is caught between a rock and a hard place. The ongoing success of the iPod/iPhone or rising success of Zune will only further diminish the relevance of using your Palm device for music.

There is now evidence which leaves a very strong hint of more applications, possibly even third party applications coming for the iPhone and iPod touch:

http://www.iphoneatlas.com/2007/10/09/hidden-iphone-111-feature-shows-evidence-of-3rd-party-app-support/

Third party applications for the iPhone will be the nail in the coffin for Palm.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 10/10/2007 8:00:36 AM # Q
>>>MSFT will eventually get it right. I remember when Windows, Office, IE, WinMob, MSN, XBox, etc. were all going to fail.

You really want that to happen, Gekko? God, you're not a fool. You're a tool!

http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/what-a-world-run-by-windows-looks-like/

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 10/10/2007 12:10:48 PM # Q
Gekko: Put this in your iPod and rock.

http://www.yuppiepricks.com/home.php

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 10/10/2007 12:13:55 PM # Q
Gekko, that band was MADE for you:

Boo F**king Hoo

Boo Boo F**king Hoo

Get Sally Struthers off of my TV,
I need a cup of coffee to stimulate my greed,
My fifty-nine cents wonít go to fuel,
Third-world dictators under Commie rule.

Donít ask for change, please donít you plead,
My heartís made of platinum and itís not gonna bleed,
Save your sad stories for another Joe,
Iím saving my pennies for a bag of blow.

Boo Boo F**king Hoo

So sorry baby time for divorce,
You out to pasture like a hobbled racehorse,
Better get a job, you wonít get half,
Deuceíll carve up your lawyer like a tender veal calf.

Excuse me Cratchit, you want a raise,
How bout a ham with a nice honey glaze,
Donít look at me, I know Timís sick,
You canít squeeze a dime from a Yuppie Prick.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
InsGuy @ 10/10/2007 5:42:42 PM # Q
"Third party applications for the iPhone will be the nail in the coffin for Palm."

I agree. I have an unlocked iPhone and can't wait to see what programs developers may offer down the road. Right now, as is, it beats any of my previous pda's I've had in the past. So IF developers can enhance, further, my experience with the iphone the way they did for me (when I used to use Palm pdas), then I think the iphone will become more popular in the future.


All good things...

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 2/1/2009 9:02:56 AM # Q
WTF is THIS?!!? *I* didn't post this, so why the eff is it under MY NAME?

====================


RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 10/10/2007 12:13:55 PM #

Gekko, that band was MADE for you:

Boo F**king Hoo

Boo Boo F**king Hoo

Get Sally Struthers off of my TV,
I need a cup of coffee to stimulate my greed,
My fifty-nine cents won't go to fuel,
Third-world dictators under Commie rule.

Don't ask for change, please don't you plead,
My heart's made of platinum and it's not gonna bleed,
Save your sad stories for another Joe,
I'm saving my pennies for a bag of blow.

Boo Boo F**king Hoo

So sorry baby time for divorce,
You out to pasture like a hobbled racehorse,
Better get a job, you won't get half,
Deuce'll carve up your lawyer like a tender veal calf.

Excuse me Cratchit, you want a raise,
How bout a ham with a nice honey glaze,
Don't look at me, I know Tim's sick,
You can't squeeze a dime from a Yuppie Prick.

======================

I'm changing my frikkin password. Also emailing Ryan. Some bad shit is up here.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 2/1/2009 9:09:41 AM # Q
Belay that. OK, I probably C&Ped Yuppie Prick lyrics. Cripes, that was waaay back when I was still signing into MySpace. Brain fart. FAIL!

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
Gekko @ 2/1/2009 9:11:30 AM # Q

that post is almost two years old and now you comment? likely the daily diet of microwave pizza plastic has leeched into and addled your brain and affected your memory?

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 2/1/2009 3:27:28 PM # Q
No, it must be the lack of same. I've been having real pizza lately.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
akalefty @ 2/2/2009 8:20:28 AM # Q
Some bad shit is up here.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, assuming that one actually had one in the first place. Shame on you for hacking into your own account.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
SeldomVisitor @ 2/2/2009 8:24:33 AM # Q
It's okay, he changed the password so he won't be able to do that again.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
Tuckermaclain @ 2/2/2009 10:35:27 AM # Q
haha! Moment of severe confusion! Made a slow news day a little better. Sucks when you realize someday you could drive miles down the road with your turn signal on.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
Tuckermaclain @ 2/2/2009 10:41:03 AM # Q
Hey Lefty-a bit off this topic. In your opinion will we see an emulator for the Pre and if yes how soon and from whom? Possibly in "the Cloud?" I don't like the idea of tossing all my apps just to converge 2 devices.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 2/2/2009 12:35:24 PM # Q
>>>A mind is a terrible thing to waste, assuming that one actually had one in the first place. Shame on you for hacking into your own account.

It must be awfully crowded in yours. You should give into that voice that keeps shouting JUMP! JUMP! when you're at the edge of the train platform.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
akalefty @ 2/3/2009 10:11:29 AM # Q
You should give into that voice that keeps shouting JUMP! JUMP! when you're at the edge of the train platform.

But that's your voice, Mikey.

It's gotta be vastly depressing to be so bitter that your only outlet for gratification is urging suicide on people who are demonstrably a lot happier than you are.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
akalefty @ 2/3/2009 10:15:06 AM # Q
In your opinion will we see an emulator for the Pre and if yes how soon and from whom?

Not from Palm, apparently: they view it as a "third-party opportunity", I gather.

All other things being equal, yeah, I'd assume you'd see some sort of Garnet emulation on the Pre (assuming the Pre comes out, is actually worth buying, is actually bought, etc.); a lot would depend on what sort of programming models/environments are available, and that seems to be entirely unclear.

Could you write a Garnet emulator in Javascript...? Dunno.

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
mikecane @ 2/4/2009 6:54:10 AM # Q
>>>But that's your voice, Mikey.

Oh, so it's MY voice in YOUR head?

Yeah, you're a poster child for clean mental health there, Abcess!

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
akalefty @ 2/5/2009 8:51:09 AM # Q
...you're a poster child for clean mental health there...

Brave words from a guy whose chief contribution is urging other people to commit suicide....

RE: Why the iPod can be conquered
Gekko @ 2/5/2009 11:08:52 AM # Q

f**king hipsters

http://tinyurl.com/bwy84s



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iPhone vs Palm Third Party S/W

gswallow @ 10/30/2007 3:42:03 PM # Q
iPhone? Not on your life.

I got an iPod Mini when I was still using a Treo 300; my 4th, 5th, and 6th Palm OS device. I have plenty of 3rd party software and write my own with iziBASIC. I now have a Treo 680, 7th Palm OS device, and a third iPod mini; original was replaced twice by Apple after dead battery issues. And, that is the problem.

iPhone battery is good for 300 full-cycle charges. Then you have to get a new iPhone (through battery replacement plan) for $100 similar to what I've gone through with my three iPod Minis. Figure spending this each year.

I have figured out how to fix the iPod battery problem... quit using it. I've gone more than 20 months on my third iPod Mini by not using it more than 4 hours each day; was using it more than 8.

I will replace the battery and upgrade the hard drive myself when this one finally dies; new battery and 8gb hard drive are ready to go in. Not long now since it's only holding a charge for two hours.

My Treo 680 does all the Palm software I own, plus phone and music, but that is not why I would not have an iPhone. The Treo 680 has a removable battery that can easily be replaced without getting a new Treo. I even have a spare and charger so I can just pull one and insert a freshly charged battery each day.

Features may matter to a point, but no user replaceable battery means no iPhone in my book.

Reply to this comment

Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps

Gekko @ 2/1/2009 9:27:00 AM # Q
>Palm's Mark Bercow, the senior vice president of business development is quoted several times within the article on his role of chief evangelist of the Palm OS to the software development community. In short, Mr. Bercow states that the industry trend is heading towards openness of platforms and standards, something which stands in distinct contrast to the ironclad grip that both Apple and AT&T wield over nearly every aspect of the much-ballyhooed yet much-maligned iPhone.


hmmmnnnnnnn.....~1.5 years later and it looks like Apple's app strategy has been wildly successful. is Bercow still at Palm?

RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
mikecane @ 2/1/2009 3:28:36 PM # Q
Oh come on! You of all people should understand WHY people are devving the hell out of iPhone. Fifteen MILLION potential customers. As you'd say: MONEY TALKS.

RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
gmayhak @ 2/2/2009 6:51:25 AM # Q
You're right Mike, I've had apps on PalmGear for years, most of them free, and they've averaged a few downloads a week. In the couple months I've been writing iPhone apps I've sold about 900 and had nearly 7000 downloads of Little Hal (free).

Tech Center Labs
RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
Gekko @ 2/2/2009 8:15:01 AM # Q
>Oh come on! You of all people should understand WHY people are devving the hell out of iPhone. Fifteen MILLION potential customers. As you'd say: MONEY TALKS.

success breeds success. it's no accident. positive spiral feedback loop. chicken or egg argument - apple is winning because they have done a lot of things right.


RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
mikecane @ 2/2/2009 12:34:11 PM # Q
>>>success breeds success.

Gekko, is your brain nothing more than a frightening collection of horrifying cliches?

RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
Gekko @ 2/2/2009 3:11:22 PM # Q

i am trying to dumb down my posts so that it is easier to communicate with you.

RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
freakout @ 2/2/2009 4:20:50 PM # Q
I've had apps on PalmGear for years, most of them free, and they've averaged a few downloads a week. In the couple months I've been writing iPhone apps I've sold about 900 and had nearly 7000 downloads of Little Hal (free).

Apple's App Store design is indeed excellent.(even if the policies governing it are rubbish) Both the on-device client and the desktop management of it all (even if it is via iTunes. Ugh) - it's a great implementation and exactly what Palm has needed since forever.

The official webOS app catalog is a step in the right direction. Now they need to do a good desktop implementation. I simply don't believe they're going to an entirely cloud-based ecosystem. As important as the cloud is going to be, the desktop is still a big piece of the puzzle and Palm knows it.

One other thought - Apple's marketing of third-party apps as a selling point is going to help mobile developers across-the-board, not just on iPhone. It's all about normalising the concept of personalising your phone with apps - something Palm or Microsoft never really managed to pull off. Now the question "can you get apps on that?" will not be met with blank stares. Kudos to Cupertino.

RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
Gekko @ 2/2/2009 4:55:48 PM # Q

where is this palm webos app catalog you speak of? how many apps are available now? how long will it take for 1,000 or more apps available? how many webos developers are working on something right now? how many intend to?

RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
mikecane @ 2/2/2009 5:02:15 PM # Q
FFS, Gekko, will you just bloody BOOKMARK it already?
http://prepoint.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/predevcamp-organizes/

RE: Apple vs Palm & 3rd Party Apps
freakout @ 2/2/2009 5:02:41 PM # Q
^^ What am I, an astrologer? :P

Answers: on the unreleased Pre, none (see "unreleased"), approximately 7 months 12 days four hours thirty-six minutes and forty-eight seconds, whichever ones got access to SDK which is not publicly available yet, and any who have brains.

You want more, you're going to have to call my $10-a-minute-hotline.

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