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Comments on: Developers Speak on Future of Palm OS

Kent Pribbernow (aka FooFighter), a longtime mobile user/writer/pundit, has posted a number of interviews with various mobile software developers on his PocketFactory blog. Some of the notables personalities interviewed in the article are Howard Tomlinson of Astraware, Adriano Chiaretta of iambic, and, hitting especially hard in his criticisms, C.E. Stuar Dewar, of DateBk6 fame. This one's definitely worth a read for any other developers or long-term fans of Palm OS.
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Palm, hurry up!

t3h @ 1/7/2007 10:49:11 PM # Q
Hurry up with Access Linux. I can't wait until I have Linux in my pocket...

Palm TX + 1GB SD + Motorola v3x = awesomeness
Are you kidding?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2007 1:09:33 AM # Q
Hurry up with Access Linux. I can't wait until I have Linux in my pocket...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Palm will NEVER use Access' new OS in any of its devices. In fact, it's questionable that Access will even be able to release a stable OS in time for it to still matter.


TVoR

RE: Palm, hurry up!
tompi @ 1/8/2007 3:55:49 PM # Q
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Palm will NEVER use Access' new OS in any of its devices.

What choice do they have? Become a Windows-only vendor? I don't think they can survive on that.

There are three feasible long-term choices for smartphone OSes: Symbian, Windows, and Linux. Take your pick.

In fact, it's questionable that Access will even be able to release a stable OS in time for it to still matter.

I seriously doubt stability is a problem for them; Linux on handhelds is rock-solid and has been for years. The only question is what degree of Palm compatibility they can provide.

Edumacation 101: Palm's OS options revisited...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2007 4:26:02 PM # Q
>>>Sorry to burst your bubble, but Palm will NEVER use Access' new OS in any of its devices.

What choice do they have? Become a Windows-only vendor? I don't think they can survive on that.

There are three feasible long-term choices for smartphone OSes: Symbian, Windows, and Linux. Take your pick.

You might not be aware, but Palm recently purchased from Access the right to use PalmOS 5 any way they want to.

Palm can now do the following:

- Stick with PalmOS 5.
- Stick with Windows Mobile
- Stick with PalmOs 5 and Windows Mobile
- Create a Linux-based OS from scratch
- License a Linux-based OS
- Create their own version of PalmOS 5 (PalmOS 5.xxx)
- Integrate a PalmOS emulator into Windows Mobile
- Integrate a PalmOS emulator into a Linux-based OS
- Create an entirely new mobile OS from scratch
- Negotiate for exclusive ownership of PalmOS 5 and PalmOS 6 ("Cobalt")
- License Symbian or any other mobile OS

Only one of these options makes sense at this late stage of the game. Guess which one?

>>>In fact, it's questionable that Access will even be able to release a stable OS in time for it to still matter.

I seriously doubt stability is a problem for them; Linux on handhelds is rock-solid and has been for years. The only question is what degree of Palm compatibility they can provide.

Correction: Linux on handhelds is as slow as molasses in January and lacks appropriate power management and has done so for years. The Window of opportunity to get PalmLinux to fly closed when Access smothered PalmLinux development a year ago while it slept in its crib.

TVoR

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As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2007 1:05:45 AM # Q
Nice to see that CES Dewar is not afraid to cut through all the B.S. and tell it like it is. Yet another reason why he's TVoR's favorite PalmOS developer...


TVoR

TVoR's favourite developer
rmhurdman @ 1/8/2007 5:27:31 AM # Q
What a dubious honour.

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
twrock @ 1/8/2007 6:33:10 AM # Q
...he's TVoR's favorite PalmOS developer...

I think you'll get a lot of agreement with that one. DateBk[insert any number here] is fantastic software.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
cervezas @ 1/8/2007 11:15:24 AM # Q
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that TVoR found Mr Dewar's remarks uniquely truthful. I and other developers have been expressing these concerns for quite some time, but anyone who disagrees with The Voice on any subject automatically gets branded a "Palm Apologist" here, and gets laughably reinterpreted in that light ever after.

There's a reason why industrial devices that run Palm OS (such as those from Aceeca and Symbol) still use Palm OS 4 and why some of the best consumer Palm OS devices weren't developed by Palm. Palm has produced some great devices and made a few important hardware innovations, but many of the modifications they have made to the OS have eroded the qualities of stability and speed that made the original Palm OS attractive to so many.

If you think this is a surprising view coming from a developer you just haven't talked to very many Palm developers. As you can tell from the comments by Mr Dewar and the other developers, it's for most of us still a platform that is very much worth developing for, but it's not as attractive or fun as it used to be. And for a few developers of certain kinds of applications the pain from some of these poorly implemented or ill-advised changes has been severe enough to drive them away completely.

I'm hopeful that since Palm has reacquired a good number of the star Palm OS developers from PalmSource over the last year we'll see some recovery of the original virtues of the platform. The fact that the Treo 680 software seems to be such a substantial improvement over previous releases from Palm makes me feel that that hope might be more than just wishful thinking.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2007 1:13:44 PM # Q
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that TVoR found Mr Dewar's remarks uniquely truthful. I and other developers have been expressing these concerns for quite some time, but anyone who disagrees with The Voice on any subject automatically gets branded a "Palm Apologist" here, and gets laughably reinterpreted in that light ever after.

Beersy, stop your pathetic bellyaching. You and other cowardly, snivelling developers/lackeys don't have the GUTS to publicly tell it like it is. Period. Instead you B.S. and pretend everything is OK and that Palm and PalmSource are doing a good job, when the reality is that the Palm Companies seem hell-bent on DESTROYING the platform. You've been (deservedly) labelled a Palm Apologist because of your interminable B.S. and the Palm-approved SPIN you place on everything that happens in the Palm eCONomy. You have no credibility because it's obvious that you kowtow to every Palm/PalmSource employee. Your obsequious attempts to curry favor with Palm/PalmSource are truly disgusting.

There's a reason why industrial devices that run Palm OS (such as those from Aceeca and Symbol) still use Palm OS 4 and why some of the best consumer Palm OS devices weren't developed by Palm. Palm has produced some great devices and made a few important hardware innovations, but many of the modifications they have made to the OS have eroded the qualities of stability and speed that made the original Palm OS attractive to so many.

Here we go again. Aceeca and Symbol use PalmOS 4 because it's cheap, it's stable and it does all that they need it to. Period. Most of the best consumer PalmOS devices weren't developed by Palm because Palm was always more interested in MILKING the Incremental Upgrade Gravy Train™ than it was in truly advancing hardware. Compare the devices Palm offered in ANY given year to what the competition offered and this becomes painfully clear. In 1999 TRG sold the CompactFlash-enabled TRGpro, while Palm was hawking the 4 MB IIIx. How long did it take before Palm offered a color-screened model? Useful memory expansion? Multimedia? Wi-Fi + Bluetooth? A smartphone? A backup application (oops - never)?

Fast forward to 2005. Cobalt is dead and all the devices that were supposed to be running it now have no next-generation OS to use. So Palm arrogantly SCREWS the very same developer community it likes to tout as the platform's main asset by savagely breaking convention within PalmOS and not even having the decency to warn these developers. After the sh1t hit the fan and users started screaming to developers about broken applications, Palm wouldn't even help them develop workarounds. Instead Palm guarded the OS butchery as if it was some Secret Sauce. If only users knew what was in that Secret Sauce... NASTY, NASTY, CREAMY CODE from some truly rank amateur codemonkeys that couldn't care less. It's truly shocking how poor a job Palm did producing its schlockware proprietary "upgrades" to PalmOS. The numerous bugs that cropped up in Palm's NVFS integration and the new databases went a LONG way towards undermining the PalmOS platform and allowing PPC/Windows Mobile to get the upper hand on Palm. The whole "Zen of Palm" marketing B.S. (justifying selling cheap, primitive hardware at a high price because the OS is intuitive and STABLE) completely unravelled when PalmOS became even buggier than the better-featured competition (PPC/Windows Mobile). Beersy, if you were honest enough to give a truthful assessment of the current PalmOS situation you'd say that even in 2007 PalmOS remains a hacked-up, buggy mess. FrankenPalmOS is an embarassment to Jeff Hawkins' legacy.

If you think this is a surprising view coming from a developer you just haven't talked to very many Palm developers. As you can tell from the comments by Mr Dewar and the other developers, it's for most of us still a platform that is very much worth developing for, but it's not as attractive or fun as it used to be. And for a few developers of certain kinds of applications the pain from some of these poorly implemented or ill-advised changes has been severe enough to drive them away completely.

Spare us, Beersy. Are you suddenly willing to come out of the closet and criticize PalmOS now that CES Dewar has done so publicly? Or are you just too embarassed to disagree with someone of his stature by SPINNING the PalmOS situation as a positive? Why don't you just tell us some more about how impressed you are with Cobalt, Beersy? I seem to recall you were its #1 fan a year or two ago. Have a seat, Biotch.

Fitaly has left the PalmOS scene, disgusted by Palm's sleazy behaviour. Pimlico (CES Dewar) stuck it out mainly out of respect for its tens of thousands of devoted users. Most commercial developers that used to be exclusively PalmOS have already added Windows Mobile versions of their software or are in the process of doing so, in anticipation of the death of PalmOS. The final blow will be Palm announcing a Windows Mobile device with integrated PACE/StyleTap Platform ("The best of both worlds™"). I'd suggest PalmOS devotees start backing up all of their favorite applications in preparation for the day that support evaporates. Experience has shown TVoR that some developers disappear literally overnight, leaving registered users out in the cold with their pants around their ankles, feeling used.

I'm hopeful that since Palm has reacquired a good number of the star Palm OS developers from PalmSource over the last year we'll see some recovery of the original virtues of the platform. The fact that the Treo 680 software seems to be such a substantial improvement over previous releases from Palm makes me feel that that hope might be more than just wishful thinking.

No codemonkey in their right mind would work for a company as clueless as Palm. The length of time Palm's codemonkey vacancies went unfilled reflects how unadvisable it would be to work for them.

The arrogance of Palm and PalmSource and the pure greed of their executives will be remembered as what ultimately destroyed the PalmOS platform. Microsoft must be laughing at their good fortune. Back in Palm's heady days of 2000, who would ever have thought it would end up this way? Unbelievable.

Copyright 2007
TVoR, Inc.

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
cervezas @ 1/8/2007 2:52:31 PM # Q
I still get a kick out of seeing how easy it is to work you into a lather, Voice. I'm slightly ashamed to admit that winding you up and watching you whirl remains one of the small guilty pleasures of participating here. Just a flick of my keyboard and off you go again!

Everyone regular here (save you and maybe brain-dead Gekko) knows that I haven't used a Palm PDA since the NVFS debacle (Tungsten T3 and Garmin iQue still going strong); that I never cared much for the Treo line (680 excepted, but I still prefer my Samsung i500); and that I consistently extoll the virtues of the old Palm OS over the new. All but you know that pointing out how porting Cobalt to a Linux kernel wasn't going to be a bed of roses and saying Cobalt was a wonderful thing are two different things. And all but you can tell that you just agreed with 90% of what I just wrote and had to work mighty hard to make it look like you didn't! :-)

So keep insulting the intelligence of the readers here and see if somehow this time it gets you a bit of the respect you've been (hopelessly) craving for all these years.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH. And Beersy doesn't.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2007 4:53:36 PM # Q
I still get a kick out of seeing how easy it is to work you into a lather, Voice. I'm slightly ashamed to admit that winding you up and watching you whirl remains one of the small guilty pleasures of participating here. Just a flick of my keyboard and off you go again!

Yes, Beersy. You and Mike Cane are brilliant puppet masters. Oh wait a minute. No, YOU'RE the puppets. Sorry. My bad.

Everyone regular here (save you and maybe brain-dead Gekko) knows that I haven't used a Palm PDA since the NVFS debacle (Tungsten T3 and Garmin iQue still going strong); that I never cared much for the Treo line (680 excepted, but I still prefer my Samsung i500); and that I consistently extoll the virtues of the old Palm OS over the new. All but you know that pointing out how porting Cobalt to a Linux kernel wasn't going to be a bed of roses and saying Cobalt was a wonderful thing are two different things. And all but you can tell that you just agreed with 90% of what I just wrote and had to work mighty hard to make it look like you didn't! :-)

What planet (in which alternate reality) do you live on, Beersy?

So keep insulting the intelligence of the readers here and see if somehow this time it gets you a bit of the respect you've been (hopelessly) craving for all these years.

The only one insulting intelligence is YOU with you constant Palm Apologist toadying. Did you EVER get tired of licking hackbod's (shiny patent leather) boots? Or sucking up to Ben Combee? Or Brownnosing Michael Mace? It sucks 2 B U, Beersy.

TVoR

Flick!
cervezas @ 1/8/2007 5:10:16 PM # Q
I know it's bad. I'm sorry, I'll stop feeding the troll.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
icesalmon @ 1/8/2007 5:33:34 PM # Q
TVOR is annoying. He is always the first one to post. He is always negative. I don't understand why he hated Palm so much, yet still kept reading and posting here.
The discussions at Palminfocenter got pointless whenever he joined in. The posts by TVOR are slowly destroying Palminfocenter.
RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
retrospooty @ 1/8/2007 6:47:32 PM # Q
"anyone who disagrees with The Voice on any subject automatically gets branded a "Palm Apologist" here, and gets laughably reinterpreted in that light ever after"

You called that one I guess. LOL

"I still get a kick out of seeing how easy it is to work you into a lather, Voice. I'm slightly ashamed to admit that winding you up and watching you whirl remains one of the small guilty pleasures of participating here. Just a flick of my keyboard and off you go again!"

correct again... And funny. I do that too. With angry Mac Zealots and Tvor... "Raz the Spaz" is definitely one of my favotire online games. =)

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
freakout @ 1/8/2007 8:54:36 PM # Q
The discussions at Palminfocenter got pointless whenever he joined in. The posts by TVOR are slowly destroying Palminfocenter.

I take issue with that. TVoR is a font of content, and whether or not you agree with it he still participates in the discussions here. What I'm tired of is people who bitch about the Voice but don't actually post here on a regular basis themselves. Frankly, I'd rather keep the Voice, who almost always manages to elicit a comment or two out of people - even if it's just for them to completely refute what he/she/it has said.

If TVoR's attackers put in a little more time here, then it would be much easier to agree with their complaints and ask he/she/it to back off a bit. As it stands, TVoR contributes to the site more than most.

Maybe it's a chicken-and-the-egg thing, but if that's the case there's no real way to test it other than banning one of PIC's most prolific (and yes, profane, I know) commenters. Or else, introducing a moderating system, although I think it's a bit of overkill on a site like PIC.


Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 1/8/2007 11:13:16 PM # Q
Maybe it's a chicken-and-the-egg thing

Let's test this theory, Timmmmmmmmay. TvoR will go on sabbatical for a while. The Palm Aplogists can come out from their bunkers (and closets) now. Palminfocenter is now a kinder, gentler, more bullsh!ttier place to be.

Kumbaya my Lord... Kumbayah...


TVoR
(Riding off into the sunset...)

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
Tamog @ 1/9/2007 2:41:48 AM # Q
Hi,
TamsPalm would be more than willing to give TVoR author rights!

No need to take a sabbatical - just flame somewhere where you are accepted!

Best regards
Tam Hanna

Find out more about the Palm OS in my blog:
http://tamspalm.tamoggemon.com

'Codemonkeys'
relyons @ 1/9/2007 10:58:01 AM # Q
TVoR said, "No codemonkey in their right mind would work for a company as clueless as Palm. The length of time Palm's codemonkey vacancies went unfilled reflects how unadvisable it would be to work for them."

TVoR exposed his lack of respect for software developers by describing them with the slur "codemonkeys".

Hundreds of software developers have poured months and years of their time, money and soul to create and extend the Palm OS and develop new applications for the Palm OS.

However, Howard Tomlinson, Adriano Chiaretta, C.E. Stuart Dewar, Ben Combee, Aaron Ardiri, Neil Rhodes and David Beers are nothing more than "codemonkeys" to TVoR.

Eric Lyons
codemonkey

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
retrospooty @ 1/9/2007 10:16:13 PM # Q
Eric Lyons
codemonkey

TVOR
Troll.

I'd take codemonkey any day.

Retrospooty (Palm Apologist).

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
twrock @ 1/9/2007 10:40:03 PM # Q
...there's no real way to test it other than banning one of PIC's most prolific (and yes, profane, I know) commenters. Or else, introducing a moderating system, although I think it's a bit of overkill on a site like PIC.

Tim, there are way too many variables to conclude anything from either of those options. That's part of why TVOR can "play the game" (act the martyr) with confidence. He will choose when to leave and when to return. Then he can spin it any way he sees fit. Of course anyone can try to spin it for that matter, but of course no one else has the control over when he leaves and when he shows back up. He's not gone, he's reading every post, and he'll start posting again when it suits him. It's just a game, nothing more.


I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
e_tellurian @ 1/9/2007 11:19:59 PM # Q
We have an extremely large trade package that includes building an interactive we-com industry.

Banning seems an inexpensive way to obtain content not yet negotiated. If some are going to keep content then we must assure the author, whether some like the author or not, has access to her/his content.

Peace,

E-T

e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
rcartwright @ 1/9/2007 11:40:56 PM # Q
He will be back and soon considerng the iphone will give him a lot to rant about.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
e_tellurian @ 1/10/2007 4:13:27 PM # Q
"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

Agreed, we-com equity has value too.

E-T

e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
Gekko @ 1/10/2007 4:44:12 PM # Q

where is the E-T we-com e-com blog for the masses?


RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
e_tellurian @ 1/18/2007 1:11:07 PM # Q
The masses have access to our thoughts and assist the income of the web site owners through advertising.

Our thoughts offer a form of charity, which is not being, reciprocated very well ... trade. We want to pay for the time we have spend on these various web sites sharing the wealth of our knowledge to build peaceful choices that offer more for people to build while offering a way to sustain our choices too.

Much we do is for charity, though, not all we do can be for charity ... human beings must eat and our thoughts will help feed many people. In advanced societies food is not free, as we know how to create value in exchange for food … honourably.

Peace,

E-T

e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
naio21 @ 1/19/2007 3:02:28 PM # Q
TVoR exposed his lack of respect for software developers by describing them with the slur "codemonkeys".

No, he exposed the lack of respect for PALM's software developers. Do they deserve any?

Ivan

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
e_tellurian @ 1/22/2007 1:17:21 PM # Q
Our thoughts have been shared with all major players in the world of digital innovation.

Our work is unique and requires more advanced technology so we may assure all that enhance digital choices are able to share in the wealth of their thoughts honorably and most importantly peacefully.

Peace comes in many form. Competing for capital is not an act of war, in advanced societies it is a replacement for swords. A digital choice for hard currency is not a desire shared by all. We all have a right to innovate to pay for our choices, though not all have to choose new innovation in commence.

"disruptive technology" applies to all new choices as it disrupts current choices by offering more choices ... not unique in advanced economies. Advanced economies seem to spend much money defending our choices from those that do not choose our choices.

Peace,

E-T

e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/22/2007 4:57:55 PM # Q
'Codemonkeys'
relyons @ 1/9/2007 10:58:01 AM #

TVoR said, "No codemonkey in their right mind would work for a company as clueless as Palm. The length of time Palm's codemonkey vacancies went unfilled reflects how unadvisable it would be to work for them."

TVoR exposed his lack of respect for software developers by describing them with the slur "codemonkeys".

Hundreds of software developers have poured months and years of their time, money and soul to create and extend the Palm OS and develop new applications for the Palm OS.

However, Howard Tomlinson, Adriano Chiaretta, C.E. Stuart Dewar, Ben Combee, Aaron Ardiri, Neil Rhodes and David Beers are nothing more than "codemonkeys" to TVoR.

Eric Lyons
codemonkey

Are you REALLY that dimwitted, Mr. Lyons? Wow.


RE: As usual, CES Dewar speaks the TRUTH
retrospooty @ 1/9/2007 10:16:13 PM #

Eric Lyons
codemonkey

TVOR
Troll.

I'd take codemonkey any day.

Retrospooty (Palm Apologist).


I'll bet you'll take a codemonkey (up the a**). Thanks for sharing, spoogy.


TVoR


Reply to this comment

Palm OS is here to stay.

VampireLestat @ 1/9/2007 11:49:50 PM # Q
Palm OS 5 is a proven platform with still to be tapped potential.
Palm now has full rights to improve it, and they will.
Stay the course. No one panic.
Money talks, so just keep buying OS 5 devices.

RE: Palm OS is here to stay.
Gekko @ 1/10/2007 5:26:45 PM # Q

VampireBoy - you sound like the Captain of the Titanic.



RE: Palm OS is here to stay.
Gekko @ 1/10/2007 5:28:14 PM # Q

(right after it hit an iceberg.)



RE: Palm OS is here to stay.
Foo Fighter @ 1/22/2007 5:18:54 PM # Q
Ryan, would you please delete his account or block the IP? I'm getting sick of wading through all these ridiculous we-com spam posts.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
The iPhone Blog, www.theiphoneblog.com
RE: Palm OS is here to stay.
Foo Fighter @ 1/22/2007 5:22:06 PM # Q
"Money talks, so just keep buying OS 5 devices."

Good luck. There aren't many devices running PalmOS 5 left on the market today, save for one Treo model per carrier, and none are remarkable products. The 680 lacks necessary competitive features, and the 700p is simply a piece of junk.

So yes, by all means, keep buying those OS 5 devices...and throw your money right out the window.

In the meantime, the competition keeps innovating and building better products.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
The iPhone Blog, www.theiphoneblog.com

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