Comments on: Handheld Market Continues Downhill Slide
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RE: No kidding
You'd think about a million units a year...
That way they could still tease some upgrade sales with minimal investment. OTOH, they probably want to maintain separation between Z22, T2, and TX, and figure there's not much left to do with the TX (without designing a new model.)
RE: You'd think about a million units a year...
Contrast that with today - the handheld market is rapidly imploding. Margins are minimal. And Palm only commands a portion of the already meager volume levels.
It's over.
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: You'd think about a million units a year...
What I really don't understand is all those on this board who seem to be cheering the end of the PDA. It's as if you don't think the Smartphone and PDA can coexist and mock those who perfer the PDA.
To answer a question down below, I would not even consider a non-phone that I had to purchase a data plan. No Wifi - No Sale in my case. I also would not consider anything larger in size then a PDA. If I want bigger I'll just take my iBook along.
PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
Rage against the dying light
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Rage against the dying light
If advertising didn't successfully take something that was good and desired but wasn't selling due to lack of word getting out, then we wouldn't have advertising. Advertising works, and tips the scales. When was the last time you saw an ad for a straight-PDA Palm? Me either. Hell, a non-phone PDA could be marketed as a feature/selling-point:
"Still need to get at your contacts, addressbook, and memos places where cell phones aren't allowed (and maybe play a game or 12)...?"
"Need to organize your life, but don't want your life tied to a cell phone...?"
"Want a simple digital device without the complexity of an online device...?"
"Want to pay for an electronic organizer once, and not month after month...?"
The market is there, whether Palm chooses to cater to it or not (and whether YOU'RE in it or not). Take a pill, no one is asking you to give up your Treo or for Palm to STOP making them for those who want them.
http://www.vtbsd.net/
RE: Rage against the dying light
Consumers don't want a dedicated PDA, and companies that produce these devices are well aware of this fact. Sales aren't declining due to consumer pause, while they eagerly wait for new models to roll out. They're declining because consumers have voted traditional PDAs out of their pockets. Apple's iPod line hasn't seen a significant product refresh in some time and yet their growth continues.
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Rage against the dying light
The market is there, whether Palm chooses to cater to it or not (and whether YOU'RE in it or not).
The market is NOT there. If it were sales would be growing, not declining - and certainly not declining at the astonishing rate it's occurring now. Even in a stagnant or over saturated segment there is growth. For example, look at the PC industry. Desktop and portables reached plateau long ago and the market is heavily commoditized and over saturated. Although the growth RATE has declined the sector still sees growth. Why? Because PCs are in demand. We all use desktop computers, notebooks, and workstations in our daily lives, even though we may not upgrade or buy new hardware for extended periods.
That isn't the case with handhelds. The problem with you and others like you is that you have no understanding of business. If you had you wouldn't be making such ridiculous claims as "the market is there" in a sector that is plummeting into the ground at 36% year-over-year.
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Rage against the dying light
Oh bugger off, Foo. I still *need* a PDA, whether you or Palm care to admit it or not. Hey, maybe an ACCESS licensee will see it! As long as I have my damned 4 core apps, I'll be on my way to happy -- with a 320x480 screen, of course!
RE: Rage against the dying light
I still *need* a PDA, whether you or Palm care to admit it or not.
You needn't worry. With the current installed base there are plenty of old PDAs in circulation to provide a recycled economy for handheld diehards like yourself, for many years to come. Just look at the Newton - those damned things are STILL around.
And you might be soon eating your words as more UMPC and Linux handheld PCs emerge. If you're going to carry a dedicated device in your pocket, why not carry a REAL computer and now a dumbed down antiquated mobile OS like Palm?
Which brings me to another factor in the death of handhelds - pocket-sized computers. UMPC hasn't taken off yet, or perhaps never will. But devices like it and experimental Linux portables like the Nokia N800 (sorry Mike) are a harbinger of things to come. Who would want a Garnet powered TX when true portable computers can be had for roughly the same price, in the same form factor?
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Rage against the dying light
The N800? Hahahaha!
http://tinyurl.com/384l7h
REAL pocket computer?
http://tinyurl.com/2mq6fl
Hello? Welcome to Today. (Oh, was that already taken by someone?)
RE: Rage against the dying light
R u mAd?!!?
RE: Rage against the dying light
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Rage against the dying light
Hello? Welcome to Today. (Oh, was that already taken by someone?)
Wait a sec... You're welcoming ME to "today" while lamenting about needing PDAs? Sounds like you're welcoming me from yesterday.
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Rage against the dying light
If you need a PDA so badly, why is it you never buy one? Your Clie was stolen (and promptly placed on exhibit at the Smithsonian), so you end up with another relic. All the while complaining that every model on the market fails you're requirements. Now the market is disappearing.
Do you realize the implication? You actually out-waited the lifespan of an entire technology. It's the equivalent of someone from the horse-drawn era waiting for the right automobile to come along, until motor vehicles are eventually replaced by flying cars.
I gotta hand it to you (no pun intended). Your stubbornness is truly amazing. ^_^
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http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Rage against the dying light
No one wants to buy old/unrevised stock. You just cannot beat a good PDA. The smart phones do not compare. They are a phone with an alternate limited use. You couldn't get me to trade my PDA for a phone.
RE: Rage against the dying light
Mio's year-on-year gains came with the introduction of two new devices to its product portfolio, the P350 and the P550.
Well golly gee, who'd thunk if you actually put out a couple of new units, people would actually buy them?
Foo, most of what you say is completely valid. However, I find it interesting that you make some great distinction between a "pocketable pc" and a "pda". You talk about how PC's are getting smaller and how Linux is a viable OS for these devices, but then you somehow don't seem to notice that Palm is also moving toward the same destination from the other side.
How is my TX "only" a PDA when I can edit Office documents on it? When I can store my entire "My documents" folder on the SD card (no media of course) and access any of my documents anywhere? When I have complete dictionaries, even multi-lingual dictionaries available to me in an instant? When I have a huge collection of reference material of my choosing available at my fingertips anywhere I am? The list could go on. And for their next trick, they are going to start shipping devices with a Linux kernel. Starts to look like a "pocketable pc", doesn't it? No, they aren't there yet, but isn't that where this is going?
(Disclaimer: Palm is moving so slowly that they may likely never get there. This does not mean that the idea isn't good. This likely is the cause of the frustration of many of us. We see that it can be done; it just isn't being done well or fast enough.)
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Rage against the dying light
There is still a PDA market. There are still lots of people using them. I see them every day. But they no longer have any reason to upgrade, not because they don't want to, but because there's nothing for them to upgrade to. I have a 400MHz 320x480 PDA. with 64MB of RAM. What has Palm produced that beats that? And this PDA is like 4 years old.
In that 36% decline are people like myself and them with money ready to spend on a next-generation PDA if Palm would actually make one. It doesn't even need to be higher-res. Just faster CPU, more battery life (OLED?), no slider, support for larger SD cards... along with the features I use that they've done away with like charge LED, memo recorder and vibrating alerts, and I'm ready to spend money. $399? $499? Whatever, just make the damn thing and we'll buy it.
The PC market continues to flourish because manufacturers haven't let the specs on the models stagnate. They continue to produce something better, PCs that can do everything the previous one could and then-some. So people have a reason to upgrade without losing any capability. I haven't been able to do that with my PDA in 4 years.
http://www.vtbsd.net/
'Remains committed'
Also, here's just a few examples off the top of my head for how Palm can quietly & cheaply boost the sales of the their three remaining PDA models while maintaing the same price point & margins:
Z22:
-Add an SD slot and headphone jack like its predecessor the Zire 31 had. If budget permits, throw in a cheap VGA camera. For $100, it'd still sell well to students & soccer moms etc.
T|E2:
-Two strategies here. Palm can either double the RAM, upgrade the software bundle & OS and drop the MSRP by $40-$50 and keep it a fine model "as is".
Or Palm could add in wi-fi and/or integrated GPS capabilities and keep it at $200ish. Sell the software extra to keep the costs down but advertise it as "GPS-capable"
OR
-Palm could take a Treo 680, give it a fixed battery and a slightly larger LCD and make it a good bit thinner and call it the T|E3. No one has done a non-smartphone QWERTY-enabled Palm OS PDA since the Treo 90. Palm might pick up a few sales to those who prefer a thumboard over Graffiti 2. I've long maintained Palm could easy score a few sales with SMS-crazed kids who either already have a cell phone and/or cannot handle the costs associated with a Treo with a cheap, wi-fi enabled, QWERTY thumbboard PDA.
TX:
-Keep the existing formfactor & $299.99 price point but change the top panel slightly. Redesign the power button (m500 style) to accomodate an integrated LED light for message notification and charge status. Put a slit next to the headphone jack and give it an internal microphone. These two steps are *crucial*.
-Higher capacity internal battery
-Same RAM but give it the DBHeap/Cache from the 700p/755p.
-Stay with the 312mhz CPU for cost & battery reasons
-Bundle a decent VOIP app in ROM or on the software CD.
-Bluetooth 1.2 with the updated 755p BT stack
-(optional) Give it a T5-style internal flash but make it 1gb. Offer "official" 4gb SDHC support or just use the 680's slot & driver and let users bring their own unofficial support for 8gb+ volumes.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: 'Remains committed'
RE: 'Remains committed'
RE: 'Remains committed'
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: 'Remains committed'
RE: 'Remains committed'
If/when Palm announces they are pulling the plug on PDAs for good, I may either buy a 3rd TX or a used E2 or something.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: 'Remains committed'
Well, I'm still "commited" with my hacked m505 as daily pda, and TT3 waiting if first dies.
Good outdoor visibility and longer batt. life are more important than some MHz.
For multimedia I use a phone.
I will never again buy anything with G2 shit. (TT3 has of course modified rom).
RE: 'Remains committed'
Now THAT is something that sketchy Official Palm Blog should address: Is G1 EVER coming back now that the legal fire is out?!
RE: 'Remains committed'
Of course, I'd expect something like that to go (at best) like one of those PalmAddicts exclusive interviews that are filled with a lot of PR dept-speak and (at worst) to just go ignored in lieu of a bunch of app recommendation from Palm emplyees.
Palm wants to get into the "services" business soooo badly....well, for starters, how about paying Xerox a few royalty $ and offer a $20 downloadable, officially-licensed-from-Xerox and officially-supported-by-Palm Graffiti 1 plugin for ALL OS 5.2 + devices. As a baseline, it MUST be at least as fast and as accurate as the fantastic G1 execution on the T|T (truly the swansong of fast & accurate single stroke character input).
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
I listened to a 3G Software Platform Manager at Sprint talking last week about his company releasing 3-4 "PDAs" (presumably with 3G radios) in the 4th quarter of 2007. He specifically distinguished these from "handsets." This is not a big secret: there were about 100 people in the room.
While disconnected organizer-style PDAs are a fading technology, data-centric devices that deliver Web 2.0 to the palm of your hand via WiFi, WiMax or 3G networks are finally being readied for market. I notice that Dell (http://tinyurl.com/2sqm4a) and Gateway (http://www.gateway.com/accessories/product/13381795.php?seg=hm) have both started selling the Nokia N800 Internet Tablet. Then you have Intel's MID mini-tablets (http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/16/intels-mid-umpcs-so-long-xp-vista-hello-linux/) and Palm's new device announcement at the end of this month. Seems to me things are about to get interesting again for folks who don't want their mobile data apps hamstrung by mobile phone hardware.
By the way, I have an unspecifiable reason to believe that Palm's new Linux whatchmacallit devices could be dishing up some pretty slick graphic effects. Which is to say it's not your father's Palm OS. :-)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
> Palm's new Linux whatchmacallit devices could be dishing up some
> pretty slick graphic effects...
You must have missed Motorola's "new phones coming soon or here now" presentation.
Featuring Java/Linux phones et al.
> ...Which is to say it's not your father's Palm OS. :-)
Interestingly, neither were Motorola's!
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
You must have missed Motorola's "new phones coming soon or here now" presentation. Featuring Java/Linux phones et al.
Scalable vector graphics have been around for Java phones for a while (see for example Yahoo Go!) and have little to do with either Motorola or Linux. But we are just now beginning to get announcements of handsets with the Java ME MSA architecture that bakes SVG into enough phones to make it interesting to developers. Silverlight is pretty much still a science experiment on Windows Mobile, as is the new JavaFX Mobile smartphone OS that Sun just announced. So it's arguably Adobe, not Sun, that has the lead in the mobile graphics arena with Flash Lite. But where are all the apps? Flash Lite doesn't have enough under the hood to deliver on the kind of applications that Palm OS users are interested in. It has about the same capabilities for persisting data on the phone as your browser does via cookies.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
End of year is target timeframe for the first PALM Linux device.
... and also the timeframe for Sprint's wireless "PDA" releases. That was my point. So what's your point?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
Which means no subsidies, but no locking/unlocking either. I would think that the going price for the Nokia N800 would be a reasonable point of reference for pricing of devices like this. Dell is selling the N800 for $392.55 right now, not $700.
Maybe on EVDO units they'll subsidize and try to lock you in as they do now, I don't know.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Sprint: we're releasing 3-4 PDAs in Q4 07
Man, are you on drugs or just delusional?!!?
I'm really beginning to suspect your expertise.
You know, it's funny....
Pilot Pro, III, IIIe, Nino (yeah...oops!), IIIc, VIIx, m505, NR70V, NZ90, NX60, T3, Zire 72s, NX80V, Treo 90, Treo 650
RE: You know, it's funny....
PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: You know, it's funny....
Ha!
If anything, when I pull out my CLIE, people stare because I don't think they know WTF it is!! That's how far the PDA meme has deteriorated. I'm hip now because I'm retro!
Just wait til my LifeDrive is in operation! People will swoon! (Hopefully blonde female people!)
HP rocks
don't ask me why, but I have recently really begun to love my ipaq rx4240. The machine blows my TX out of the water in every regard...it really rocks for a styluscentric device(except for a few, minor but annoying Windows Mobile eekers).
Here is a comparison of the screens:
http://tamsppc.tamoggemon.com/2007/05/05/the-hp-ipaq-rx4240-review-screen/
And here's a look at the design(it looks really cool because the machine is so small - the bigger one sucks):
http://tamsppc.tamoggemon.com/2007/05/04/the-hp-ipaq-rx4240-review-physical-characteristics/
Best regards
Tam Hanna
http://www.palmfilefind.com - find files on your memory card
Find out more about the Palm OS in my blog:
http://tamspalm.tamoggemon.com
RE: HP rocks
RE: HP rocks
They were great in the O2 XDA Mini Having a PDA phone that size was great but who wants a data device you need to hold to your nose to look at.
How good are cargo pants, they're a gadget lovers best friend.
RE: HP rocks
well then, I am very sorry to see you go. As said, I love my Treo and like the Palm OS very much....and thats why I speak up about it.
As for the small screens, my halfblind eye works as a magnifier on close range...that probably explains everything =). But jokes aside, the ipaqs screen is about as big as my Treos...everyone who could use my Treo had no problems with the ipaq(it uses larger fonts).
As for Windows CE...expect a few rants on that from me soon, too...
There is no perfect mobile platform in the end...
Best regards
Tam Hanna
http://www.palmfilefind.com - find files on your memory card
Find out more about the Palm OS in my blog:
http://tamspalm.tamoggemon.com
It's Not Sliding, It's Evolving
Although I enjoy a nice flame war as much as the next guy, especially since TVoR exited the forums, I don't see why people spend so much time arguing over whether or not the PDA market is dead or not, and who's to blame.
This is a 'market', folks, it never stands still. Likewise, the definition of what, exactly, a PDA 'is' continues to evolve, and the arguments about whether smartphones are in or out of the definition are just as ludicrous. Call it whatever you want, just be aware of where the handheld market is heading.
What 'is' fairly certain is that there are a lot of manufacturers converging on the concept of a small form factor computer that provides greater portability and instant data accessibility than a laptop, and more features/storage/capabilities than a smartphone or PMP.
Microsoft came at it from the top by trying to stuff XP/Visa into an uber-PDA formfactor, and we all know how well that's working out so far, because of battery and storage issues, and the unsuitability of a full-fledged desktop OS for a mobile device.
Palm, Blackberry and other smartphone makers have been moving from the bottom up, adding features like more storage, faster processors, greater wireless capabilities, etc. -- but a tiny screen and thumbpad really limit working with office files.
Nokia, Pepperpad, and a few others are muddling around the middle with various sizes and formfactors, but their devices are generally underpowered, and Linux ain't much better than Windows in a mobile environment right now, though improvements are expected.
I think FF is right that the market for the traditional PDA is dead, if you mean the basic, unwireless, turn-o-the-millenium model. Sorry for those of you who luv 'em, and I see your points, sremick and hkk -- Palm's idiocy in not making basic, feasible upgrades is well documented, and I'm sure a bunch of us would cheer for improved TXs -- but I think they'll survive only as specialty devices or low-end items like Sharp's dimestore PDA models. If anything takes over from the basic PDA, it'll be the coming generations of PMPs with brighter screens, lotsa flash memory, and enough processing power and OS chutzpah for PIM apps, games, and basic data management.
But the future is wireless, and any device that remotely resembles a computer yet doesn't have wifi, bluetooth, and probably some form of cellular access is already starting to look like a Smith-Corona manual typewriter. The two unresolved issues are:
1. what's the optimal balance of portability and weight vs. battery life, and screen and keyboard size, and
2. when do we get software that combines the instant on, fast response and low footprint features of mobile OS's with the document and web capabilities of desktop OS's?
Of course, there's likely going to be more than one answer to both issues, supplied by different manufacturers. I'm hoping Pam will be one of them.
YojimboE
Professional Amateur
Make this device.
- 480x640
- OLED (extremely and critically important)
- Improved audio
- TX buttons. No middle button to be gamer friendly.
- 624 mhz (bar button to downclock)
- Removable battery
- Palm Linux w/multitasking.
- PIM : rollover / delete all previous appointments / single tap go to today.
- Foot on back to stand device while playing movies.
- Speaker(s) front
- Polyphonic alarms
- Simple Wifi file sharing. Enter computer name > tap connect.
- Optional snap-on, retractable back keyboard.
- 'Find' with Boolean.
- Jog wheel.
- Side button / Mic
- Micro camera (at far top on back)
RE: Make this device.
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http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: Make this device.
-m500 series formfactor
-320x480 screen, same as TX
-Stereo 3.5mm headphone jack, same as TX
-Standard Treo-style d-pad and 4 app button arrangement.
-312mhz CPU, same as TX
-Fixed internal battery, with as much capacity as they can fit in there (1600mAh?)
-FrankenGarnet 5.4.9 with continue GUI tweaks as begun on the Treo 680
-Usual Palm PIM apps
-m500 style all-metal stylus
-Programmable charge/alert multi-colored LED integrated into power button
-Internal microphone w/ cutout on lower flared part of case.
-Standard voice recorder app
-VOIP app in ROM (if the carriers fuss, put the full version on Palm software CD)
-Wi-fi & BT 1.2 (from the 755p)
-CDMA & GSM phone BT DUN with PhoneLink Update software updated monthly
-DTG 10 Premium, Google Maps, PTunes Deluxe etc. in ROM
-128mb RAM, 2gb internal flash drive, same DBheap/cache as 680/700p/755p
-New Vista-compliant Palm Desktop 5.0 with integrated online functionality (MyPalm integration, automated online backups) and vastly improved multimedia file management
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
What Treo users don't seem to get.
And for two reasons.
All PDA phones have ether crappy battery life (2 days says the review for the 755 and 1.5 for the 680. Without Bluetooth &WiFi stitched on my T|X will last almost a week[and don't tell me you can switch off the radio too. Whats the point of having a phone then?), have really big batteries stretching the idea of pocket sized or in the worst scenario both.
The list of features for a kick ass PDA is simple.
1.Pocket sized (this scratches out most UMPCs)
2.6x4 screen. (Sorry to all you E and E2 owners.) This is a data centric device and for the web to be enjoyed you need that extra width I don't know how you Treo owners do it.
3.Good battery life (see above).
4.Wireless connection (yes an unconnected device with a connection. Just not a phone). I would be lost without my little portable web browser (Just so you know I live in Australia so most of the info that gets posted on this site and others happens wile I'm asleep so I use my T|X to read my own personal news paper of a morning).
A lot of posts by Treo users seem to have the opinion that because we say we don't want a phone radio we aren't going to use wireless data in any way.
Think out side the box people.
I'm not trying to tell everyone that my way is best or that smart phones are a fad I just know that my usage habits don't suit one.
I want a PIM device, a PMP, mobile web access and some games to entertain me when I'm bord.
I go camping a lot. I'm a Scout Leader and a Rover (scouts 18-26) and my T|X acts as a photo viewer but I need it to last a long weekend (4.5 days in the case of the Easter weekend).
When I jump on the web (only once or twice a week via my phone) I want a descent width to the screen or my eyes start to hurt moving back and forth all the time.
I don't need push email I work retail if I did I would surly get a Treo because my usage would require me to reevaluate my needs and wants.
I don't need an always on connection again I work retail I can't even carry a phone or PDA on the shop floor.
There are many businesses that don't allow phones with cameras on the premises and others that don't allow phones at all for security reasons.
There are many reasons why people would not wan a smart phone the manufacturer just arnt giving them a device worth buying.
How good are cargo pants, they're a gadget lovers best friend.
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
1) doubles battery life
2) contingency - if 1 unit breaks you are not without both.
If you can fit a little cell radio, mic and speaker on a handheld without sacrificing size, battery life and low cost, then by all means do it.
Converged is good. The Treo good. But its not the ONLY way of doing things.
* horsy noises* Giddee up! (1 trick pony Treo)
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
Treo requires a begging period to convince carriers.
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
Dell and others giving up is an unprecedented opportunity to takeover market share while their guard is down; while everyone has convinced themselves that handhelds are dead; which is totally and utterly ridiculous.
It is down to HP Palm and HTC. The company who keeps staking the market will profit.
Who will argue against maintaining a diversified hardware/technology portfolio?
Palm has bashed, backstabbed and self massacred its own handheld market and STILL they are making profits off of it. Then SHAMLESSLY shovel the cash into the Treo line. Scumbags.
Anyways, just make a new handheld. 2 or 3 actually; but let's start with 1.
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
Handhelds are converged devices... there is no reason why people should be buying iPod and standalone video players. That is the result of Palm's SHAMEFUL FAILURE at gauging the market in the past AND present.
A Palm plays songs AND video and 30 000 PROGRAMS! How can they not own the whole Fn entertainment market?
It is all about design details.
Here is an analogy for those who have trouble understanding:
Say you love toast. Then, all of a sudden, you notice that Black and Decker and others all now making toasters that burn your toast slightly. You hate burnt toast. Will you stop eating toast? Or will you bitch and complain that toast manufacturers should get their act together and put out a half decent toaster that DOESN'T burn your toast?
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
Handhelds are converged devices... there is no reason why people should be buying iPod and standalone video players. That is the result of Palm's SHAMEFUL FAILURE at gauging the market in the past AND present.
Consumers choose iPods and dedicated entertainment devices over Palm handhelds because they're better. iPod gained its richly deserved iconic status because of its innovative software and hardware design, combined with seamless integration to iTunes (which itself is best desktop media software in the industry). Apple made it easy to use...easy to load music on...easy to buy music for.
Contrast that with a the comically clumsy Palm solution of Pocket Tunes (it is to laugh), and the ever antiquated 1997-era HotStink or Palm Desktop transfer for loading content. Palm OS is already the laughing stock of the mobile industry, and using a Palm handheld or Treo as an iPod replacement is even more laughable. The closest handhelds came to rivaling iPods was Tapwave's Zodiac, and that product never came within reaching distance of success.
I've owned Palm devices since 1997 and have never used any model for serious multimedia content consumption because the software and usability are appalling. You've obviously never used an iPod because no experienced user would willingly choose a PDA over an iPod. Perhaps n00bs with limited exposure to technology might find a Treo (which is now a 2004 relic) running Pocket Tunes "cutting edge" or "super awesome!!!", but no tech savvy user would choose this solution. Perform a side by side comparison between a Treo/TX and iPod for accessing music via iPod's user interface compared with Pocket Tunes or any Palm media sofware. Case closed.
A Palm plays songs AND video and 30 000 PROGRAMS!
Good grief. There aren't even 30,000 lines of code in Palm OS, let alone applications for it. I can't recall the exact number, but I'm fairly certain it's closer to 19,000 not 30,000. Whatever the current tally, this tired numbers game gets trotted out all too often, and it's time we put this to rest. The vast (and I do mean VAST) majority of this wondrous figure are applications that run on Palm OS 3 and 4, and have long been abandoned by their developers. Some of these applications won't even run on a current Palm device, as is usually the case with apps written for OS 3.5. I've run into a couple myself that refused to operate on my Treo.
Of those 19k or 30k apps, the number of actively supported and developed apps is a mere fraction. Probably closer to 1,000. Even more interesting is that we all seem to be running the same apps; DateBk 6, Agendus, Docs-to-Go, eReader, a doc reader like iSilo or TealDoc, Zlauncher, FileZ, NvBackup, TCPMP, HandyShopper, DiddleBug, Bejeweled, ChatterMail, etc. This small library of flagship apps pretty much represents the "Palm economy" today.
How can they not own the whole Fn entertainment market?
Because consumers are savvy enough to disseminate good technology from poor technology, and therefore don't want a Palm solution because it is inferior. It's hilarious that you believe Palm hardware/software is "superior" to dedicated entertainment products.
-------------------------------
http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
>>>Good grief. There aren't even 30,000 lines of code in Palm OS, let alone applications for it.
Foo, you are so full of crap sometimes!!
Consumers choose iPods and dedicated entertainment devices over Palm handhelds because they're better. iPod gained its richly deserved iconic status because of its innovative software and hardware design, combined with seamless integration to iTunes (which itself is best desktop media software in the industry). Apple made it easy to use...easy to load music on...easy to buy music for.
iTunes is a steaming heap of shit, Foo. The unwashed masses like it - and it'd be a good model for Palm to emulate with the Palm Desktop - but me and almost everyone I know prefer the million-times-less-bloated Winamp for our desktop music playing. I'd wager that most computer-savvy people feel the same way. iTunes is great for computer beginners, but it's far from "the best desktop media software in the industry".
Contrast that with a the comically clumsy Palm solution of Pocket Tunes (it is to laugh), and the ever antiquated 1997-era HotStink or Palm Desktop transfer for loading content. Palm OS is already the laughing stock of the mobile industry, and using a Palm handheld or Treo as an iPod replacement is even more laughable. The closest handhelds came to rivaling iPods was Tapwave's Zodiac, and that product never came within reaching distance of success. I've owned Palm devices since 1997 and have never used any model for serious multimedia content consumption because the software and usability are appalling. You've obviously never used an iPod because no experienced user would willingly choose a PDA over an iPod. Perhaps n00bs with limited exposure to technology might find a Treo (which is now a 2004 relic) running Pocket Tunes "cutting edge" or "super awesome!!!", but no tech savvy user would choose this solution. Perform a side by side comparison between a Treo/TX and iPod for accessing music via iPod's user interface compared with Pocket Tunes or any Palm media sofware. Case closed.
The mobile media experience on a Treo is far superior to an iPod, Foo. And I have used both. Let us count the ways:
1) With Softick Audio Gateway I can use wireless headphones. (granted, it would be nice to have a 3.5mm jack, but there's no shortage of decent 2.5mm headphones nowadays so it's not that big an issue.)
2) With a lot more screen real estate, I have at-a-glance access to my playlist, track information and album art, as opposed to having to drill down through a million menus.
3) With a full QWERTY keyboard and software like mp3tag, I can edit incorrect/inaccurate ID3 tags on the fly.
4) With the aforementioned keyboard I can also jump to a specific alphabetical section of my library with one button press, as opposed to spinning my finger for all eternity.
5) On a Palm, I can play almost any kind of music or video that I want. On an iPod, you are limited to iTunes-compatible rubbish. The mobile video motto is: No DivX, no point.
6) On a Palm, I have access to a number of different streaming media formats as well. Bit tough to do that on an iPod...
7) Sleek, the new pTunes interface, looks better than the iPod interface.
8) My Treo has a removable, easily replacable battery.
Need I go on?
The iPod's a great device for the clueless consumer who just wants to listen to music. Any truly tech-savvy person would recognize that a mobile computer like a Treo or a TX offers a much, much wider range of entertainment options.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
Buggy whip - This is a coach whip used for driving on horses harnessed to a buggy, or small open carriage. Though similar whips are still manufactured for limited purposes, the buggy whip industry as a major economic entity ceased to exist with the introduction of the automobile, and is cited in economics and marketing as an example of an industry ceasing to exist because its market niche, and the need for its product, disappears. In discussions of market regulation, it is often held that the economy would be disadvantaged as a whole if the buggy-whip industry were protected from going out of business by banning the automobile.
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
And they outnumber us. By millions.
>>>Any truly tech-savvy person would recognize that a mobile computer like a Treo or a TX offers a much, much wider range of entertainment options.
Yeah, except STORAGE CAPACITY.
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
Well, duh. :P That's not what I was arguing. Foo said that if you performed a side-by-side comparison any tech-savvy person would pick an iPod as the clear winner. Which is just bollocks. Feature-for-feature a Palm blows an iPod out of the water.
Yes, an iPod has much greater storage capacity, but really, 8GB (the SD limit for my 680) can carry hours and hours of music, a number of videos and an assload of pictures. Carrying your entire music collection around with you is cool, but I think more than compensated for by the other features I listed. Plus SD cards are removable, another small consolation.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
>>> iTunes is a steaming heap of shit, Foo. The unwashed masses like it
>>> The iPod's a great device for the clueless consumer who just wants to listen to music. Any truly tech-savvy person would recognize that a mobile computer like a Treo or a TX offers a much, much wider range of entertainment options.
Everyone seems to be talking about what, "Only the "horribly un-tech-savvy people of the world would use." I know it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think that the entertainment software you use sets you apart from the ignorant masses, but it doesn't. The multimedia software a person uses is rarely based solely on their level of tech-guru-ness. More often than not, it's based on their personal preferences of what they consider to be adequate for what they do. Please stop making generalizations that everyone who uses an iPod is a clueless consumer, and that iTunes is for the unwashed masses. Everyone has their own preferences for what's good for them and what's not good for them. I personally prefer iTunes over every other music app I've used (Winamp included), and I prefer my PDA over any thing else I've used for mobile entertainment.
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
iTunes is a steaming heap of shit, Foo. The unwashed masses like it
Strange. That steaming pile of shit, as you call it, sparked a revolution is music distribution - igniting legal music downloads. iTunes also happens to be the most innovative and vertically integrated media software available today. Even Microsoft, with its schizophrenic media strategy has been unable to duplicate iTunes success with not one but TWO media interfaces (Windows Media Player and ZUNE Software).
The masses (washed or unwashed) choose iTunes because it is a better product that offers the features they want, in an easy-to-use interface; which is the definition of good software design.
Off-topic: Since when did the comment system allow profanity again? I wish you people would tell me this shit sooner.
- and it'd be a good model for Palm to emulate with the Palm Desktop -
Uh...Palm Desktop is a PIM, not a media center. Integrating media plaback into PD is a half-baked idea. Why not ask Microsoft to combine Outlook with Windows Media Player while we're at it? This software is bad enough already without lumbering it with new features on top of an already aging framework.
The best thing Palm could do to improve Palm Desktop is KILL IT and replace it with an entirely new application that works seamlessly and offers modern features that place it on a competitive scale with Outlook, instead of the antiquated circa-Windows 3.1 app that it is now. I stopped using PD years ago because it is horribly inferior and, much like the PalmOS itself, hasn't received an overhaul in years.
but me and almost everyone I know prefer the million-times-less-bloated Winamp for our desktop music playing. I'd wager that most computer-savvy people feel the same way.
Hey, 1998 called - they want their media software back. WimAmp is old school. ItWimAmp is old school. became the pinnacle of bloatware with version 5, at the time AOL acquired it, resulting in its ruination and decline. Prior to version 5.0, WinAmp was a quick and dirty way to playback MP3s on your hard drive. Today even Windows Media Player has largely displaced its use. Another indictment to WinAmp is that it hasn't been updated in years. Version 5 came out several years ago, and very little has change since, much less improved.
You're dating yourself there Freakout. Do you still use ICQ for instant messaging, and download Win98 desktop themes as well?
I'd wager that most computer-savvy people feel the same way.
You'd lose that wager. Most computer savvy users I know are multi-platform centric and don't use Windows to manage their content. Most (myself included) have Macs in their homes specifically for that purpose. Those that do use Windows exclusively don't use WinAmp unless they've been living in a technological bubble for the past eight years and think that MusicMatch still exists too. WinAmp was popular back in an age when the ability to listen to music at your computer was a magical new feature for personal computers. Today, the core functions of media software have evolved into all encompassing media management and access: music - movie trailers - DVDs - audiobooks - podcasts - online media storefront. Songbird is the most promising media player on Windows, IMO. It's still too early in beta, but it has a great deal of potential.
As an aside - it's rather ironic. Years ago when I started in computing (back in the mid-nineties), Windows was an OS for power users. I became an avid Windows/PC geek, building my own systems, setting up gaming rigs, etc. It was great. Macs were, more or less, computers for technophobes.
Since the introduction of OSX (particularly in conjunction with Apple's move to Intel), roles seem to be reversing; Macs are becoming the preferred platform for advanced or hardcore users while Windows becomes the platform for less sophisticated users. Case in point; I attended a web developer forum a few months, with about two hundred attendees at the event, discussing web platforms like AJAX, Ruby on Rails, and .Net. It was like a bloody Mac convention. The majority of of attendees were toting PowerBooks and MacBooks. Glowing Apple logos illuminated the room as far as the eye could see. Five years ago that would not have been the case. Inspirons, Latitutudes and ThinkPads would have been portable du jour among my colleagues. Times are changing.
iTunes is great for computer beginners, but it's far from "the best desktop media software in the industry".
In what way do you define iTunes as software for "beginners"? I didn't realize that people who want to listen to their music library...purchase music from a legal download source...watch movies...have the best interface for visually managing and accessing their content...download podcasts...audiobooks...wirelessly stream music OTA to other computers or sound systems throughout their dwelling...and seamlessly sync music with their multimedia device(s) were newbs?
How do you define "advanced" users, and how do they consume content differently? Do they convert song lyrics into ASCII art? Do they access their music library from a Terminal window, typing string variables to launch tracks? Am I supposed to be compiling my kernel while listening to Bob Dylan?
Your implication seems to be that favoring an elegant, highly usable interface is something only a "beginner" would want, which is outrageous. I'm not sure how you ever drew that conclusion, but it's grossly flawed. Choosing complexity and crude design over usability doesn't reflect your level of expertise. It simply means you have low standards (or poor taste) in software.
The mobile media experience on a Treo is far superior to an iPod, Foo. And I have used both. Let us count the ways:
Oh my. Such delusions. The words Treo and superior don't belong in the same sentence. Not even the same paragraph.
The volume experience on a Treo isn't superior to an iPod, let alone media playback. Treo isn't even superior to other smartphones; it lost that honor long ago. The only thing Treo does exceedingly well, above all others, is spontaneously reboot. It can't even make a phone call well. My crimson 680 (which is now f/s on eBay) can't even make it through the day without needing recharged.
1) With Softick Audio Gateway I can use wireless headphones. (granted, it would be nice to have a 3.5mm jack, but there's no shortage of decent 2.5mm headphones nowadays so it's not that big an issue.)
Wireless headphone options exist for iPod as well. Your point?
2) With a lot more screen real estate, I have at-a-glance access to my playlist, track information and album art, as opposed to having to drill down through a million menus.
That's an interesting observation given the fact that both displays are the same size (2.5"), combined with the fact that iPod's display is landscape oriented as opposed to Treo's square screen, resulting in larger video display on iPod, and smaller video display size on the Treo. Where exactly is this extra screen real estate you speak of?
3) With a full QWERTY keyboard and software like mp3tag, I can edit incorrect/inaccurate ID3 tags on the fly.
That sounds more like indictment against the Treo media experience to me. Did you switch sides in this argument without letting on? So I can fix my messed up media library on the go! Now, a newb might question why their music is incorrectly tagged and labeled in the first place, or why it needs to be corrected from a portable media player rather than simply performing housekeeping chores like that at their desktop. Or that iTunes can automatically fix the issue for you and automatically download missing album art as well. But then again, iTunes is for beginners, right?
4) With the aforementioned keyboard I can also jump to a specific alphabetical section of my library with one button press, as opposed to spinning my finger for all eternity.
Err, anyone who believes that navigating the Palm interface to access their media library, tapping on dialog buttons (OK / Cancel) as opposed to iPod's linear metaphor, has been using PalmOS too long. PocketTunes is a mediocre interface for navigation, particularly one-handhed. Unless you think tabbing around with a D-pad is convenient. Here's a simple test; try using PTunes to find your favorite artists while driving and count how many seconds it takes before your car ends up wrapped around a telephone pole. On an iPod I can perform the same task in three clicks starting from the main screen. Not that I recommend scrolling and driving (I'm patenting that term, watch it).
With PTunes it's...tap>tap>tap>scroll>press aphanumeric key>scroll to song>tap to select>. The One-handhed method is even more entertaining. It's like playing PONG. The developers at Normsoft have no clue how to design a usable mobile media interface because, like so many other media app developers, they model their software UI after DESKTOP media players rather than portable media interfaces like the iPod and Zune. And that is why smartphone media functionality goes unused by most users. Nobody uses their smartphone for audio playback because the experience sucks. Most smartphone users also own a dedicated media player as well. Go figure.
Looking beyond the interface shortcomings lies the more crippling issue of actually LOADING content onto the phone. It's painful at best, even more so for PalmOS with it's behindhand desktop sync. The only way to easily move files is through the use of an SD/MicroSD card reader. MarkSpace provides a handy tool for Mac users that emulates the T5's Drive Copy mode allowing you to transfer music directly onto the card itself like a mounted Flash drive. But this too is slow archaic. Users shouldn't be burden with file management. It's a dated concept.
Windows Mobile does the best job of desktop integration, for a smartphone. Unfortunately the media experience on the device is equally rubbish because WMP looks and works just likes its obese desktop cousin. It strange that even Microsoft could get mobile media so wrong with smartphones and get it so right with Zune (at the device level).
5) On a Palm, I can play almost any kind of music or video that I want. On an iPod, you are limited to iTunes-compatible rubbish. The mobile video motto is: No DivX, no point.
There are but two file formats that I utilize, or want; MP3 and AAC. Apple does not support WMA or OGG Vorbis...and I want neither format in my library. WMA is Microsoft's whimsical audio format designed to lock users into an all-Microsoft media environment, thanks but I'll pass. Nobody uses OGG.
As for video, you can quickly convert any video format into iPod format, which by the way has to do with iPod's resolution more than lock-out efforts from Apple. With FFMPEGX I can easily rip any DVD movie for playback on my iPod. But that holds little value to most users anyway, because the screen real estate on portable devices (even iPhone's) is really too small for comfortable video playback. The majority of users who download online video content, either legally or pirated, do so for playback on laptop screens or larger. If I'm traveling on a flight to Istanbul I sure as hell don't plan on watching Shrek III on a Treo's display. And if I did there wouldn't be enough juice left to make a phone call. I'd be running to the nearest charging station or lining my pockets with back up batterie. Good luck explaining those to airport security.
For portable video, I'll use my notebook, thank you.
6) On a Palm, I have access to a number of different streaming media formats as well. Bit tough to do that on an iPod...
Bit tough to do that on a Treo as well because listening to steaming audio on your Treo via bloatware like PTunes while the cellular radio is enable will consume battery power faster than Britney Spears downing a bottle cheap Cognac. I know because I've sampled streaming radio on both my Treos. It's a novelty.
And later this year Apple will make that point moot when it introduces new WiFi enabled iPods. iPhone will leave your Treo coughing on trail dust soon because it has a REAL browser and media player, unlike Garnet's Gerber baby browser.
7) Sleek, the new pTunes interface, looks better than the iPod interface.
PTunes interface looks like a desktop media player interface. I don't care what it looks like because it's a clumsy interface that obfuscates media functionality of my phone. Again, that's not a pro, it's con.
8) My Treo has a removable, easily replacable battery.
Now you're reaching a bit here. That's a plus, for sure. But the Treo's power consumption is ravenous compared to a dedicated media player (particularly the 680 which lasts a mere few hours while RESTING). A removable battery is a MUST HAVE feature on any phone, less so with media players.
Need I go on?
So far your points have little substance. More like nitpicks.
The iPod's a great device for the clueless consumer who just wants to listen to music.
That ignorant comment does more to damage the credibility of your argument than any rebuttal I could offer.
Any truly tech-savvy person would recognize that a mobile computer like a Treo or a TX offers a much, much wider range of entertainment options.
Actually a truly tech savvy person wouldn't carry a Treo (not a Palm-based Treo anyway). In fact nearly everyone I know that has or had a Treo has since upgraded to a Blackberry or Windows Mobile device (particularly the former) or eagerly plans to do so in the coming months. Among the top selling smartphones on the market, Treo has to be the most lamented by its users. Even in podcasts that I regularly listen to, when the topic of smartphones comes up, one or more participants will bemoan their experience with the Treo and that he/she cannot wait to upgrade to a BlackBerry, iPhone, Sidekick, or some other popular phone. If anything, it might be fair to call Treo a smartphone for beginners.
-------------------------------
http://www.pocketfactory.com
http://www.elitistsnob.com
Guffaw!
Uh...Palm Desktop is a PIM, not a media center... The best thing Palm could do to improve Palm Desktop is KILL IT and replace it with an entirely new application that works seamlessly
And how I know it! I agree. It's antiquated program that desperately needs a refresh. But today's smartphone/handheld user more than likely has a sizable media library, and Palm Desktop simply isn't up to the task of managing it. This is something I've been going on about for ages. Let's not fight, darling...
Strange. That steaming pile of shit, as you call it, sparked a revolution is music distribution - igniting legal music downloads... The masses (washed or unwashed) choose iTunes because it is a better product that offers the features they want, in an easy-to-use interface; which is the definition of good software design.
That's odd, I thought they chose it 'cause it's what came with their iPod. But I'm weird like that. For the record, I find that iTunes is over-simplified and on a par with WMP when it comes to load time. I just plain don't like it, and nor do others I know, which is really all I have to go on.
Hey, 1998 called - they want their media software back. WimAmp is old school.
That's why I like it. Yep, it's certainly swelled in size quite a bit since the good old days, but the fact of the matter is that it still loads the fastest and has the most compact on-screen footprint. That's all I want or need.
Most computer savvy users I know are multi-platform centric and don't use Windows to manage their content. Most (myself included) have Macs in their homes specifically for that purpose.
LOL!! I didn't know you were a comedian, Foo! I think the latest figures had Mac market share at what, 5%? Oh, let's be generous - maybe 6%? I only know one person who owns a Mac.
(1)Wireless headphone options exist for iPod as well. Your point?
You don't need a ridiculously large, cumbersome dongle to use them on a Treo.
(2)That's an interesting observation given the fact that both displays are the same size (2.5"), combined with the fact that iPod's display is landscape oriented as opposed to Treo's square screen, resulting in larger video display on iPod, and smaller video display size on the Treo. Where exactly is this extra screen real estate you speak of?
Are you kidding me dude? Let's compare the default Sleek UI on pTunes to the iPod UI:
Sleek displays track information, album art, playback controls, a "library" button, a "streams" button, and a short playlist. With one tap of my touchscreen I can skip ahead to another song in the list, or enlarge the album art, or bring up more detailed song information....
The iPod displays track information and album art. Want to see something else? Click!
(3)That sounds more like indictment against the Treo media experience to me. Did you switch sides in this argument without letting on? So I can fix my messed up media library on the go! Now, a newb might question why their music is incorrectly tagged and labeled in the first place, or why it needs to be corrected from a portable media player rather than simply performing housekeeping chores like that at their desktop. Or that iTunes can automatically fix the issue for you and automatically download missing album art as well. But then again, iTunes is for beginners, right?
Whoop-dee doo-da! Windows Media Player can do that too. As someone's who's tried these auto-tagging services, I've found them to be somewhat lacking, and only actually getting it right about 75% of the time. But Foo, the reality of life is that a lot of the music on people's iPod's is not their own. It's been copied from friend's libraries, or downloaded via some torrent, or by some other file sharing program. Nowadays I can afford to buy and rip my own CDs so it's not as much of an issue, but back in the Napster days when I was a teen with no job and a cable connection I built up a massive collection of tracks, a lot of which still don't have the correct information on them, all these years later.
This is not an argument advocating piracy - just pointing out that a lot of music doesn't come from legit sources and more often than not is incorrectly/incompletely tagged.
(4)Err, anyone who believes that navigating the Palm interface to access their media library, tapping on dialog buttons (OK / Cancel) as opposed to iPod's linear metaphor, has been using PalmOS too long. PocketTunes is a mediocre interface for navigation, particularly one-handhed. Unless you think tabbing around with a D-pad is convenient. Here's a simple test; try using PTunes to find your favorite artists while driving and count how many seconds it takes before your car ends up wrapped around a telephone pole. On an iPod I can perform the same task in three clicks starting from the main screen. Not that I recommend scrolling and driving (I'm patenting that term, watch it).
1) Press O for Open, or tap the big musical note on the screen. (2) Press corresponding letter. (3) Tap corresponding artist. (4) Tap song. Look ma, no scrolling!!
Of course, if you choose to go another way and use a program like mOcean (the iPod clone) then you can just bang out the first few letters of the song you're after and get to it that way.
Looking beyond the interface shortcomings lies the more crippling issue of actually LOADING content onto the phone. It's painful at best, even more so for PalmOS with it's behindhand desktop sync. The only way to easily move files is through the use of an SD/MicroSD card reader. MarkSpace provides a handy tool for Mac users that emulates the T5's Drive Copy mode allowing you to transfer music directly onto the card itself like a mounted Flash drive. But this too is slow archaic. Users shouldn't be burden with file management. It's a dated concept.
No, they shouldn't, which is why pTunes syncs with both Windows Media Player, Winamp, and any other desktop media software that supports MTP media players. Been awhile since you've used it, I take it.
And later this year Apple will make that point moot when it introduces new WiFi enabled iPods. iPhone will leave your Treo coughing on trail dust soon because it has a REAL browser and media player, unlike Garnet's Gerber baby browser.
If you think the Treo battery is bad, I have a feeling you are going to be very unpleasantly surprised by the iPhone. (One of the thinnest phones on the market, with one of the biggest screens, a fancy graphics engine, three different radios and three different sensors? Interesting...)
Anyhoo, I concede the point that the iPhone will have a better browser. But the iPhone ain't out yet, and we're talking about today's iPod vs. today's Treo. Today's Treo streams. Today's iPod doesn't. Get over it.
PTunes interface looks like a desktop media player interface. I don't care what it looks like because it's a clumsy interface that obfuscates media functionality of my phone. Again, that's not a pro, it's con.
Erm... pray tell, what should it look like? An iPod, where any information you want is always a click away? Thank you, but I'll take my at-a-glance playlist and track info...
Now you're reaching a bit here. That's a plus, for sure. But the Treo's power consumption is ravenous compared to a dedicated media player (particularly the 680 which lasts a mere few hours while RESTING). A removable battery is a MUST HAVE feature on any phone, less so with media players.
I'm just saying: what's one of the most frequent complaints you still hear about the iPod? The battery that needs to be sent away or taken in for repair if it dies. I get two-three hours of wireless music playback from my 680 every day, and still plenty of power left over for phone calls, messaging etc. Sure, it needs to be recharged over night, but to be honest that's never actually been a problem for me. And my 650 went for days without breaking a sweat.
Actually a truly tech savvy person wouldn't carry a Treo (not a Palm-based Treo anyway). In fact nearly everyone I know that has or had a Treo has since upgraded to a Blackberry or Windows Mobile device (particularly the former) or eagerly plans to do so in the coming months. Among the top selling smartphones on the market, Treo has to be the most lamented by its users. Even in podcasts that I regularly listen to, when the topic of smartphones comes up, one or more participants will bemoan their experience with the Treo and that he/she cannot wait to upgrade to a BlackBerry, iPhone, Sidekick, or some other popular phone. If anything, it might be fair to call Treo a smartphone for beginners.
Oh, please! Palm and the Treo have fansites all over the web, and sales just keep growing. Anything your smartphone can do, my Treo can do better... except wi-fi.
Anyhoo, don't mistake my firm belief in the Treo's superiority as dislike of the iPod. It's a simple, uncomplicated music playing device that looks good and does what it's supposed to, and were I in the market for a dedicated media player then I'd probably wind up getting one. But I'm not, because my Treo does the job so damn well.
Sing out to your fellow Apple Cultists from your soapbox, that's fine with me. But don't seriously try and push the line that a puny iPod will do a better job than a Treo. Especially when it's so easy to argue against it.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
> since upgraded to a Blackberry or Windows Mobile device
> (particularly the former) or eagerly plans to do so in the
> coming months...
The T-Mobile Wing, Windows 6 based, has just been released - an HTC product (like the TREOs used to be):
-- http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/22/t-mobile-wing-takes-flight/
RE: What Treo users don't seem to get.
“LOADING content onto the phone. It's painful at best”
Step 1 remove SD card
Step 2 place SD card into card reader
Step 3 Click and drag new songs on to card
Step 4 replace card in T|X
“If I'm traveling on a flight to Istanbul I sure as hell don't plan on watching Shrek III on a Treo's display. And if I did there wouldn't be enough juice left to make a phone call...... For portable video, I'll use my notebook, thank you.”
I down load Heros (from those nasty file sharing sites. Why you ask because Australia is 6mts behind the US) and watch it on my T|X in my lunch break.
I have to say the screen size really doesn't bother me & I still have enough battery to last a couple of more days
Trying this on an iPod or a Treo would give me the shits & as for the iPhone its still got an inch smaller screen than my T|X so you can kiss that argument good bye.
As for your notebook that will barely even make it threw a full length feature without power.
How good are cargo pants, they're a gadget lovers best friend.
In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
Many past comments, events and facts collate to make credible the possibility that Palm's big announcement in May is a UMPC.
I am scared to comment. Let me be moderate in saying that I will give any such device my full consideration before giving a complete opinion. However, I would be dishonest if I hid that my gut feeling that there is a chance this will be a disaster product.
The key factor for acceptance and adoption is P-O-C-K-E-T-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y and ease/speed of access to data out in the field/public. And OLED.
I was right when I warned everyone about the LD would be a failure due to HD lag and I was right about warning against a TX2 with merely a 4GB rom. So trust me when I tell you all that any UMPC that is not compact in the pant pocket WILL fail in that it will not meet Palm sales or consumer expectations.
A UMPC larger than the pocket will likely only build a tiny new Palm market segment. My fear is its failure will be perceived as a confirmation that the world does not want handhelds. Palm should focus on perfecting its handheld line before plunging into oversized UMPCs.
As nonsensical and misguided the LifeDrive was to compete in the iPOD market, a UMPC would be equally as disastrous if were intended to replace the handheld line. I have this gut retching feeling someone at Palm has this vision of "let's have the Treo for handheld/phone users and a UMPC for power users" mentality. If that is the case, we are all in for a rough ride.
All that having been said, IF it is pocketable, has an OLED screen and is perhaps like an HTC JasJar or an old Sony UX, then it might be very appealing.
As for EVDO, that is great but problem is data plan costs. Sprint and others are sharks that swim in an oligopolistic industry subject and incline to collude with high price fixing. So I am not all excited over what appears to be an upcoming Palm rant about "our new big fat UMPC is huge BUT!!!!... it has cool EVDO!!! Yay!"
I am a staunch believer in that super hires screens (for maximizing the Web browsing experience) and OLED are CRITICAL key elements to any major future success of handheld/pocket mobile devices. If Palm refuses to acknowledge that visual clarity, wide viewing angles are key, then they will simply not sell as many devices and will continue to be confused, as simple as that.
I also don't like the hints that future handhelds/UMPCs will be tied to data plans by cell carriers, thus the devices would be sold and branded by Sprint for example. That is BS. We need carrier agnostic handhelds (which have both EVDO AND WIFI)and be able to buy the devices with the Palm branding straight from brick and mortar stores or on Palm.com.
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
After all, the company's called Palm. ;)
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
Sprint branded UMPC. I have a very serious problem with that. All these carriers are one of the reasons why mobile computing is hampered. They have been stopping the implementation of WiFi and now they are going to sell us the PDA. F that! And if Palm is behind that, F! them also. That would be the straw that breaks the camel's back for me.
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
I wouldn't doubt for a second Palm is way behind this because they love those artifial higher margins.
NO THANKS.
Freedom is important.
Consumers remember.
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
Somewhere around The 'Net (here?), yesterday, I read that The Next Great Thang might allow serving from one's own PC to your device, whereever it happens to be.
Will Hawkins demo a UMPC? I think there ain't no way.
Will Hawkins DISCUSS specifically a UMPC? I think there ain't no way.
Instead, I think he'll at MOST discuss a "component system" approach for The Next Great Thangs.
==========
Of COURSE I have to tout my original post about such a beast! I'm taking lessons from someone named Mike!
-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=33796
Giggle.
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
And you're behind in those payments! Stop using that "The check is in the email" excuse!
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
While there are a few rumors and unaccountable hints that the new thing could be a bit larger than a PDA, but I haven't heard anything that I can really credit on that. I'm actually someone who would *like* a bigger physical screen so I could take some decent notes on it, but if I said I thought Palm was bringing out something with a 5" x 7" screen I'd be afraid it was just wishful thinking.
Keep in mind that just because a device has plenty of screen real estate, doesn't mean that it can't be pocketable. Nokia's tablet screens have only about a 1/4" on my Tungsten T3, but they have 2 1/2 times the screen resolution. And then you have this rumored idea for which Palm holds a patent for doubling the screen size: http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2007/01/palm_foleo_secr.html (For the record, that device seems like a pipedream to me, as much as I'd like to own one)
Palm says the "vast majority" of their future products will have WiFi embedded, so I'd guess this will be true of the STB devices. Maybe they'll have a card slot for an optional carrier radio. Pop one in for your "favorite" carrier if you want it, skip it and use WiFi if you don't. It would keep Palm from having to push these things exclusively through "the four orifices" which would be good for their business, I expect. And it would set them up nicely to run on WiMax when that hits the street around the end of this year. Just pop in your new WiMax card from Sprint and go. It's Linux: the drivers shouldn't be a problem.
That's how I'd have designed the product anyway.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
There are undoubtedly others:
-- http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/16/conceptual-flexi-pda-boasts-rubber-hinges-flexible-display/
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
A slot in which you can choose your cellular technology.
Very smart.
RE: In response to cervezas. Speculated Palm UMPC.
Palm holds A patent for doubling screen size. There are undoubtedly others
There are always others when it comes to patents. The USPTO seems to care very, very little about whether patents overlap or are even essentially for the same idea when they approve them. Owning one or more patents around a concept is just a bargaining tool you can use for turning a patent infringement lawsuit into a "friendly" licensing negotiation (which is what usually happens). Which is to say a patent isn't any kind of guarantee that you can market products that implement your patented idea, it's more like a weapon in your arsenal. If it's going to be a high profile product, you'd probably better buy or license a bunch of them that look similar to yours to fend off the patent trolls.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Real funny mikecane ROTFL
Which institution has Palm been committed to? I'd like to send flowers. And maybe a card. OK, an e-card. And e-flowers."
ROTFL
Maybe the personal market
However, if the mobile device is required as a part of a job, a part of a required process, then that is the real market where handheld devices can return immediate value. There are still markets where you don't necessarily want someone to have to use a cell phone, and pay for a cell plan, to communicate with a central server, to compile a chunk of data from a field application for use in scientific research, etc. That is where mobile devices really add immediate value by helping workers keep their data organized and easier to reference on the spot. If I'm a truck driver that has to carry a package up to a residence, you can bet I don't want to fumble around at the door with a laptop. I don't want to have to organize a bunch of receipts and billing information and signatures. I want to be able to scan a barcode, get a signature, and store it, then sync it later on. That is a market where handhelds really work well.
Palm III->Palm Vx->Palm m505->Palm m515->Tungsten T->Tapwave Zodiac II->Treo 700p
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